Plato Vol05 Loeb Classical Library

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THE LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY
EDITED BY
E. CAPPS, PH.D., LL.D. T. E. PAGE, LITT.D.
W. H. D. ROUSE, LITT.D.
PLATO
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PLATO
WITH AN ENGLISH
TRANSLATION
V
LYSIS SYMPOSIUM GORGIAS
*,
W. R.
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M. LAMB,
SOMETIME FELLOW OF
M.A.
TRINITY CoLLEGE,
CAMBRIDGE
LONDON : WILLIAM HE
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Priinted in Great Brita

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PREFACE
THE Greek text in this volume is based on the
recension of Schanz; a certain number of emenda
tions by other scholars have
been adopted, and
these are noted as they occur. -
The introductions are intended merely to prepare
for
the reader the general character and purpose
of
dialogue.
-
each
W. M. LAMB.
R.
'W',
"AH!!
l's
'll
"fills
\\
CONTENTS
-
PAGE
-
SILENUS AS PEDAGOGUE Frontispiece
GENERAL INTRODUCTION ix
LYSIS
SYMPOSIUM 73
GoRGIAs 247
, INDEX 534
vii
GENERAL INTRODUCTION
Plato was born in 427 b.c. of Athenian parents who
could provide him with the best education of the
day, and ample means and leisure throughout his life.
He came to manhood in the dismal close of the
Peloponnesian War, when Aristophanes was at the
height of his success, and Sophocles and Euripides
had produced their last plays. As a boy he doubtless
heard the lectures of Gorgias, Protagoras, and other
sophists, and his early bent seems to have been
towards poetry. But his intelligence was too pro
gressive to rest in the agnostic position on which
the sophistic culture was based. A century before,
Heracleitus had declared knowledge to be impossible,
because the objects of sense are continually changing;
yet now a certain Cratylus was trying to build a
theory of knowledge over the assertion of flux, by
developing some hints let fall by its oracular author
about the truth contained in names. From this
influence Plato passed into contact with Socrates,
whose character and gifts have left a singular impress
on the thought of mankind. This effect is almost
wholly due to Plato's applications and extensions of
his master's thought ; since, fortunately for us, the
pupil not only became a teacher in his turn, bul
brought his artistic genius into play, and composed]
the memorials of philosophic talk which we know]
as the Dialogues. Xenophon, Antisthenes, and
Aeschines were other disciples of Socrates who drew]
similar sketches of his teaching : the suggestion
" "
came from the mimes of the Syracusan Sophron,
realistic studies of conversation between ordinary
types of character. As Plato became more engrossed
in the Socratic speculations, this artistic impulse
was strengthened by the desire of recording each
definite stage of thought as a basis for new discussion
and advance.
When Plato was twenty years old, Socrates was
over sixty, and had long been notorious in Athens
for his peculiar kind of sophistry. In the Phaedo he
tells how he tried, in his youth, the current scientific
explanations of the universe, and found them full of
puzzles. He then met with the theory of Anax-
"
agoras, that the cause of everything is mind."
This was more promising : but it led nowhere after
all, since it failed to rise above the conception of
" "
physical energy ; this mind showed no intelligent
aim. Disappointed of an assurance that the universe
works for the best, Socrates betook himself to the
"
plan of making definitions of beautiful," " good,"
"
large," and so on, as qualities observed in the several
classes of beautiful, good and large material things,
and then employing these propositions ^ if they
appeared to be sound, for the erection of higher
hypotheses. The point is that he made a new science
out of a recognized theory of
" " "
ideas or forms,"
which had come of reflecting on the quality predicated
when we say
"
this man is good," and which postu
lates some sure reality behind the fleeting objects
" "
of sense. His hypothetical method, familiar to
mathematicians, attains its full reach and significance
in the Republic.
The Pythagoreans who appear in the intimate
scene of the Phaedo were accustomed to the theory
of ideas,and were a fit audience for the highest
reasonings of Socrates on the true nature of life and
the soul. For some years before the master's death
(399 b.c.) Plato, if not a member of their circle, was
"
often a spell-bound hearer of the satyr." But
ordinary Athenians had other views of Socrates, which
varied according to their age and the extent of their
acquaintance with him. Aristophanes' burlesque in
the Clouds (423 b.c.) had left a common impression
not unlike what we have of the King of Laputa. Yet
the young men who had any frequent speech with
him in his later years, while they felt there was
something uncanny about him, found an irresistible

attraction in his simple manner, his humorous insight
into their ways and thoughts, and his fervent elo
quence on the principles of their actions and careers.

He kept no school, and took no fees ; he distrusted
the pretensions of the regular sophists, with whom
he was carelessly confounded ; moreover, he professed
h:, \ ._.... . ..
j
* . /. '.<.-t.fi.
i
to have no knowledge himself, except so far as tol
know that he was ignorant. The earliest Dialogues,
such as the Apology, Crito, Euthyphro, Charmides,
Laches, and Lysis, show the manner in which he
performed his ministry. In rousing men, especially
those whose minds were fresh, to the need of knowing
themselves, he promoted the authority of the intellect,
the law of definite individual knowledge, above all
reason of state or tie of party ; and it is not sur
prising that his city, in the effort of recovering her
political strength, decided to hush such an in
convenient voice. He must have foreseen his fate,
but he continued his work undeterred.
Though he seems, in his usual talk, to have
professed no positive doctrine, there were one or
two beliefs which he frequently declared. Virtue,
he said, is knowledge ; for each man's good is his
happiness, and once he knows it clearly, he needs
must choose to ensue it. Further, this knowledge
is innate in our minds, and we only need to have it
"
awakened and exercised by dialectic," or a system
atic course of question and answer. He also be
lieved his mission to be divinely ordained, and
asserted that his own actions were guided at times
"
by the prohibitions of a spiritual sign." He was
capable, as we find in the Symposium, of standing in
rapt meditation at any moment for some time, and
once for as long as twenty-four hours.
It is clear that, if he claimed no comprehensive
theory of existence, and although his ethical reliance
on knowledge, if he
never analysed it, leaves him in
a very crude stage of psychology, his logical and
mystical suggestions must have led his favourite
pupils a good way towards a new system of meta
physics. These intimates learnt, as they steeped
their minds in his, and felt the growth of"a unique
affection amid the glow of enlightenment, that
happiness may be elsewhere than in our dealings
with the material world, and that the mind has
prerogatives and duties far above the sphere of civic

life.
After the Heath of Socrates in 399, Plato spent
some twelve years in study and travel. For the
first part of this time he was perhaps at Megara,
where Eucleides, his fellow-student and friend, was
forming a school of dialectic. Here he may have

composed some of the six Dialogues already men
tioned as recording Socrates' activity in Athens.
Towards and probably beyond the end of this period,
in order to present the Socratic method in bolder
conflict with sophistic education, he wrote the

Protagoras, Meno, Euthydemus, and Gorgias. These
works show a much greater command of dramatic
and literary art, and a deeper interest in logic. The
last of them may well be later than 387, the year in
which, after an all but disastrous attempt to better

the mind of Dionysius of Syracuse, he returned to
Athens, and, now forty years of age, founded the

Academy ; where the memory of his master was to
be perpetuated by continuing and expanding the
Socratic discussions among the elect of the new
generation. The rivalry of this private college with
the professional school of Isocrates is discernible
in the subject and tone of the Gorgias. Plato
carried on the direction of the Academy till his
death, af eighty-one, in 346 ; save that half-way
through this period (367) he accepted the invitation
of his friend Dion to undertake the instruction of the
younger Dionysius at Syracuse. The elder tyrant
had been annoyed by the Socratic freedom of Plato's
talk : now it was a wayward youth who refused the
yoke of a systematic training. What "that training
was like we see in the Republic, where true political
wisdom is approached by an arduous ascent through
mathematics, logic, and metaphysics. Plato returned,
with less hopes of obtaining the ideal ruler, to make
wonderful conquests in the realm of thought.
The Meno and Gorgias set forth the doctrine that
knowledge of right is latent in our minds : dialectic,
not the rhetoric of the schools, is the means of
eliciting it. The method, as Plato soon perceived,
must be long and difficult : but he felt a mystical
rapture over its certainty, which led him to picture
" forms " as
the immutable existing in a world of
their own. This feeling, and the conviction whence
it springs that knowledge is somehow possible, had
come to the front of his mind when he began to
know Socrates. Two brilliant compositions, the
Cratylus and Symposium, display the strength of the
conviction, and then, the noble fervour of the
XI V
feeling. In the latter of

these works, the highest
powers of imaginative sympathy and eloquence are
summoned to unveil the sacred vision of absolute
beauty. The Phaedo turns the logical theory upon
the soul, which is seen to enjoy, when freed from
the body, familiar cognition of the eternal types
of being. Here Orphic dogma lends its aid to the
Socratic search for knowledge, while we behold an
inspiring picture of the philosopher in his hour of
death.
With increasing confidencein himself as the
successor of Socrates, Plato next undertook, in the
Republic, to show the master meeting his own un
satisfied queries on education and politics. We read
now of a
" "
form of good to which all thought and
action aspire, and which, contemplated in itself, will
explain not merely why justice is better than in
justice, but the meaning and aim of everything.
In order that man may be fully understood, we are
" "
to view him writ large in the organization of an
ideal state. The scheme of description opens out
into many subsidiary topics, including three great
proposals already known to Greece, the abolition of

private property, the community of women and
children, and the civic equality of the sexes. But
the central subject is the preparation of the philo
sopher, through a series of ancillary sciences, for

dialectic ;so that, once possessed of the supreme
truth, he may have light for directing his fellow-men.
As in the Phaedo, the spell of mythical revelation is
brought to enhance the discourse of reason. The
Phaedrus takes up the subject of rhetoric, to lead us
"
allegorically into the realm of ideas," and thence to
point out a new rhetoric, worthy of the well-trained
dialectician. We get also a glimpse of the philo
sopher's duty of investigating the mutual relations
" "
of the forms to which his study of particular
things has led him.
A closer interest in logical method, appearing
through his delight in imaginative construction, is
one distinctive mark of this middle stage in Plato's
teaching. As he passes to the next two Dialogues,
the Theaetetus and Parmenides, he puts off the
aesthetic rapture, and considers the ideas as cate
gories of thought which require co-ordination. The
discussion of knowledge in the former makes it
evident that the Academy was now the meeting-
place of vigorous minds, some of which were eager
to urge or hear refuted the doctrines they had
learnt from other schools of thought ; while the
arguments are conducted with a critical caution
very different from the brilliant and often hasty
zeal of Socrates. The Parmenides corrects an actual
or possible misconception of the theory of ideas in
the domain of logic, showing perhaps how Aristotle,
now a youthful disciple of Plato, found fault with
'
the theory as he understood it. The forms are
viewed in the light of the necessities of thought :
knowledge is to be attained by a careful practice
which will raise our minds to the vision of all parti
culars in their rightly distinguished and connected
classes.
Plato is here at work on his own great problem : -
If what we know is a single permanent law under
which a multitude of things are ranged, what is the
link between the one and the many ? The Sophist
contains some of his ripest thought on this increas
ingly urgent question : his confident advance beyond
Socratic teaching is indicated by the literary form,
which hardly disguises the continuous exposition of
a lecture. We observe an attention to physical
science, the association of soul, motion, and existence,
and the comparative study of being and not-being.
The Poliiicus returns to the topic of state-government,
and carries on the process of acquiring perfect
notions of reality by the classification of things.
" "
Perhaps we should see in the absolute mean
which is posited as the standard of all arts, business,
and conduct, a contribution from Aristotle. The
Phikbus, in dealing with pleasure and knowledge,
dwells further on the correct division and classifica
tion required if
our reason, as it surely must, is to
apprehend truth. The method is becoming more
thorough and more complex, and Plato's hope of
bringing it to completion is more remote. But he is
gaining a clearer insight into the problem of unity
and plurality.
The magnificent myth of the Timaeus, related
by a Pythagorean, describes the structure of the
universe, so as to show how the One manifests
xvii
itself asthe Many. We have here the latest
reflections of Plato on space, time, soul, and many
physical matters. In the lengthy treatise of the
Laws, he addresses himself to the final duty of the
philosopher as announced in the Republic : a long
habituation to abstract thought will qualify rather
than disqualify him for the practical regulation of
public and private affairs. Attention is fixed once
more on soul, as the energy of the world and the
vehicle of our sovereign reason.
Thus Plato maintains the fixity of the objects of
knowledge in a great variety of studies, which enlarge
the compass of Socrates' teaching till it embraces
enough material for complete systems of logic and
metaphysics. How far these systems were actually
worked out in the discussions of the Academy we can
only surmise from the Dialogues themselves and
a careful comparison of Aristotle ; whose writings,
however, have come down to us in a much less
perfect state. But it seems probable that, to the
end, Plato was too fertile in thought to rest content
with one authoritative body of doctrine. We may
be able to detect in the Timaeus a tendency to
view numbers as the real principles of things ; and
we may conjecture a late-found interest in the
physical complexion of the world. As a true artist,
with a keen sense of the beauty and stir of life,
Plato had this interest, in a notable degree, through
out : but in speaking of his enthusiasm for science
we must regard him rather as a great inventor of
xviii
sciences than as what we should now call a scientist.
This is giving him a splendid name, which few men
have earned. Some of his inventions may be un
realizable, but it is hard to find one that is certainly
futile. There are flaws in his arguments : to state
them clearly and fairly is to win the privilege of
taking part in a discussion at the Academy.
W. R. M. Lamb.
[Note.
Each of the Dialogues is a self-contained whole.
The order in which they have been mentioned in this Introduc
tion is that which agrees best in the main with modern views
of Plato's mental progress, though the succession in some
instances is uncertain.]
BIBLIOGRAPHY
The following give useful accounts of Socratic and

Platonic thought:
Murray,
T. Gomperz: The Greek Thinkers, vols. and iii.
ii.
19015.
The Origin and Growth
of
W. Lutoslawski: Plato's Logic,
Longmans, 1897.
R. Nettleship Philosophic Lectures and Remains. vols.
L.
2
:
Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1901.
D. G. Ritchie: Plato. T. and T. Clark, 1902.
A. Stewart: The Myths Plato. Macmillan, 1905.
of
J.
** ** Plato's Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,

1909.
Taylor: Plato. Constable, 1911.
E.
A.
Camb,
A. M. Adam Plato: Moral and Political Ideals.
:
Univ. Press, 1913.

H. Jackson: Presocratics, Socrates and the Minor Socratics,
Plato and the Old Academy (Cambridge Companion
to
Greek Studies). Camb. Univ. Press, 1905.
Burnet: Greek Philosophy Thales Plato. Macmillan,
to
J.
1914.
The following are important editions

:
Adam: The Republic. vols. Camb. Univ. Press, 1902.

J.
W. H. Thompson: The Phaedrus. Bell, 1868.

** The Gorgias. Bell, 1871.
>
*
D. Archer-Hind: The Phaedo. Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1894

R.
** 59 The Timaeus. Macmillan, 1888.

Burnet. The Phaedo. Clarendon Press, 1911.
L. J.
Campbell: The Theaetetus. Clarendon Press, 1883.

** The Sophistes and Politicus. Clarendon Press
9
1867.
E. Thompson The Meno. Macmillan, 1901.
S.
xx
LYSIS
INTRODUCTION TO THE LYSIS
IN the Lysis Socrates relates how he was taken by

some young friends into a wrestling-school, where
he finds a large and well-dressed company of youths
ind boys assembled for a sacrificial ceremony in
honour of Hermes. He proceeds to a narrative of
:wo conversations which he had with a handsome
Boy, Lysis, and his friend Menexenus: the first
ine (207-216) is a simple, introductory talk on
the
personal affection,
on of
motives which are surmised

utility,
of
depend sense and therefore on

:0
tnowledge. The second and main discussion (211

friendship
of
!23) deals with the nature and

;
the end left unexplained,

in
ilthough this relation

is
through speculations
of
number
we
are conducted
a
and incidental suggestions are

of
whose method
morals. Mene
of
to
leep interest the student

disputant, Socrates,
as
and seems
if
keen
it
tenus
is
a
on
rapid review
of
in of
lent merely the difficulties

a
ply his questions

he
subject, were anxious

to
swift and summary fashion which would allow the

!
|uick-witted boy follow his thought, but not

to
to
For the moment,

it.
any
at
hallenge
or
correct
of he
young
to
ate, content lead his friend into

is
:
maze analogical reasoning, from which neither
them can find any certain egress. The following
f
an
of
outline the discussion

s
3
213. Instances are given which show that neithei
the loving nor the loved person is necessarily a
"
friend."
214-215. We try the relation of likeness, aj
suggested by the poets, and find (1) that only when
persons are alike in goodness are they friends
and yet (2) that the good have no need of friends.
216. Again, unlikeness seems to lead to friend
ship ; but this explanation is also found to be quit
inadequate.
217-218. Perhaps we may say, on the analogy oi
medicine, that a thing like the human body
which is neither good nor evil in itself, has need oi
good through the presence of evil, which requires a
remedy ; friendship may be this sort of craving foi
good.
219-221. But we must distinguish between thai
which we desire and that for the sake of which we
desire it ; between the end in view and the reason
for pursuing it. We must find some meaning foi
friendship which is higher than the notion of .i
thing desired because of something else (e.g. evil).
222. Again, is friendship a desire of something
that belongs to one by a natural affinity ? But this
only brings us back to the difficulties about likeness
and the good, and we attain no solution of the main
question.
The result is not positively instructive or helpful,
except that we learn how large and morally im
portant is the question that we have been discussing,
and are so far prepared for the splendid revelations
of the Pkaedrus and Symposium, and for the careful
reasoning of Aristotle's Ethics. It is characteristic
of Socrates that he takes the prevalent and acceptec
>gue of strong attachments between young

thenians of his later days as a means of arousing
terest in moral speculation ; and although here
id there, as we shall observe, he hastens on to
lis main object with insufficient attention to strict
gic, his educational method is brilliantly illustrated
id recommended by the art of Plato. Indeed one
light say that, in one aspect of the dialogue, the
ere tone of Socrates towards the boys is itself a
sson in friendship.
[h nEPI *IAIA2" MAIETTIK02]
ta tot AiAAoror npozsinA

2X1KPATH2, mriO0AAH2, KTH2inn02, MENEEEN02,
AT2I2
atl\ 'Eiropevofirjv fiev e 'A/caS^/id'as eiidv AvkcIov

rr\v egai reiôuj vtt avro to reiôs- eneiorj o
iyev6fj.r]v Kara, rrjv TrvXiSa fj 77 Uavoiros Kprjvr],
hnavda awervxov 'iTrnoddXei re rut 'lepatvvfiov Kal
KrvjaiTTTrq) rut HaiavieZ Kal aXAoi? p,era rovratv
veavlaKois ddpoois crvvearuiai. /cai p.e npocriovra
'iTnroddXrjs lotbv, *0 vol
8rj
6 îWKpares, e<fyqt
TTopevr/ Kai iroBev;

fy
o'
'E 'AKaSrjfielas, rropevop.ai ev8v

B
eyco,
AvKelov.
os, eidv ov 7rapa/3dAAeis;
8'
AcO/OO Stj, rjp,u>v.

tf
aiov fievrot.
Hoi, <f>rjv eyut, Xeyeis, Kal irapa. rivas roits
vp,as
;
Aevpo, ecfyq, 8el$as p.01 ev rut KaravriKpv tov

reixovs TzepLfioXov re riva Kal dvpav avea)yfj.vrjv.
6
LYSIS
[or ON FRIENDSHIP: "obstetric"1]
CHARACTERS
Socrates, Hippothales, Ctesippus, Menexenus, Lysis
(Socrates relates a conversation that he had in

a wrestling-school)
I was making my way from the Academy straight

to the Lyceum, by the road outside the town wall,
just under the wall ; and when I reached the
little gate that leads to the spring of Panops,2 I
chanced there upon Hippothales, son of Hieronymus,
and Ctesippus of Paeania, and some other youths
with them, standing in a group together. Then
Hippothales, as he saw me approaching, said :
Socrates, whither away, and whence ?
From the Academy, I replied, on my way straight
to the Lyceum.
Come over here, he said, straight to us. You
will not put in here ? But you may as well.
Where do you mean ? I asked ; and what is your
company ?
Here, he said, showing me there, just opposite
the wall, a sort of enclosure and a door standing
i.e. facilitating the birth of correct notions, as Socrates
1
humorously claimed to do.

J i.e. of Hermes, the "all-seeing."
7
PLATO
8ia.Tpij3ofiev 8e, 17
8' os, avTodi 17/xeis Te ai5Toi
/cat aXXoi irdw ttoXXoI Kal KaXoi.
204 Eoti 8e tL tovto, Kal tls Siarpi/Jij;
8r]
rj
HaXalarpa, ecfrrj, veworl oj Ko8ofj,rjp,evrj Se
rj
Siarpi/Jij to. rroXXa iv Xoyois, cZv ijSews dv aoi
p,eTa8i8oZp,ev .
tls
rjv
8'
KaAcas' ye, eyco, irocovvres' Si8d<7/<:ei Se
avrodi.;
Soy iraipos ye, os, Kal eiraiveTr/s, MIkkos.
S'
r)
Md Ai'a,
ijV
eycl), ov cf)avX6s ye dvrjp, dXX'

8'
IKCLVOS OOtplOTrjS .
BouAei ovv erreodai, e<f>rj, Iva Kal "8rjs tovs
ovras avroai;, r' "*
'
JB YlpcoTov1 rj8ea>s aKovoai/x' dv em Tip /cat elaeipn

Kal rCs KaXos.
d
"AXXos,
d>
e<f>7), dXXcp rjp.cov 8oKeZ, Sto/cpares'.

Zoi tis, tovto p,oi elrri.
8rj
Se tu 'ImrodaXes
;
Kai os eputrqdels rjpvdpiaaev. Kal eycb etrrov

*2 naZ 'lepwvvp,ov 'ImrodaXes, tovto p,ev pvrjK&Ti
elTTTjs, eire epas tov elre pvq- oI8a yap oti ov

p,6vov epas, aXXa Kat iroppio 17817
et nopevop.evos
tov fiev dXXa <f>avXos Kal rd
8'
epcoTOS. elfj.1 eycb

axprjOTOS, tovto 8e p.oi ncos eK 9eov Se'Sorai, tcl)(v
C
oioj telvai yvcovai ipcovTa re Kai. epcop.evov.

Kai os aKOvaas ttoXv eri fidXXov r/pvOpcaarev.
6
AareZov ye, os, oti epvdpL&s,

'
oSv 'K.Trjonrnos
8
r)
,
w 'ImrodaXes, Kai OKveZs ehreZv Sai/fparet Tovvofxa

avrov ante wpCrrov seel. Burnet.
1
8
LYSIS
en. We pass our time there, he went on ; not
ly we ourselves, but others besides, a great
my,and handsome.
And what, pray, is this place, and what your
stime ?
A wrestling-school, he said, of recent construction ;
d our pastime chiefly consists of discussions, in
lich we should be happy to let you have a share.
That is very good of you, I said ; and who does
eteaching there ?
Your own comrade, he replied, and supporter,
iccus.
Upon my word, I
said, he is no slight person, but
qualified professor.
Then will you please come in with us, he said, so
to see for yourself the company we have there ?
I should be glad to hear first on what terms I am
enter, and which is the handsome one.
Each of us, he replied, has a different fancy,
crates.
Well, and which is yours, Hippothales ? Tell
i that.
At this question he blushed ; so I said : Ah,
ippothales, son of Hieronymus, you need not
mble to tell me whether you are in love with
mebody or not : for I know you are not only in
ft, but also far advanced already in your passion,
everything else I may be a poor useless creature,
t there is one gift that I have somehow from
aven, to be able to recognize quickly a lover or
beloved.
When he heard this, he blushed much more than
er. Then Ctesippus remarked : Quite charming,
e way you blush, Hippothales, and shrink from
PLATO
edv h" ovtos kolI oyzt/cpoV xPvov owStarpufrr] aoi,

TrapcLTaOrjcreTai vtto gov clkovcov daîa XeyovTOS,
rj/xcov yovv, u> luWKpares , eKKeKOj<f>coKe to. (bra /cai
D AvaiSos' av /cat vnomT], ev/Mapla
St)
e/XTreVAij/ce p,ev
vttvov eypop\evois AvaiSos oteadai
e
rjfj.lv e'crri /cat
rovvofia aKovew. /cat a p,ev KaraAoydSrjv St-
ijyetrat, Setvd ovtol, ov irdvv tl Setvd eartv, aXX
eiretSdv rd TToitjfxaTa rjfxwv im)(eip7]crT) KaravrXelv
/cat ovyypdfj,[uiTa. /cat o cart tovtcov hewoTepov,
oti /cat aSet els ra iratSi/cd <f>ct)vfj 6avp.aaia, r\v
r)fj,as Set a/cotWra? dvexeadai. vvv Se epcoTcb-
p.evos vtto aov epvdpiq.
Cigtl be, eyco, o Avms veos tis, cos eot/ce-
o
t)v
on roi>vop,a ovk eyviov.
E
TeKp.aipop.ai. Se, d/covcra?

Ov ydp ndvv, e<f>r), rl avrov rovvop.a Xeyovaiv,
aXX' en
Trarpodev eVovo/xdêrat Std to a<f>6Spa tov
TraTepa yt,yvcboKeadai avrov. errel ev otS' on
ttoXXov Set? to etSos dyvoetv tov 7rat8dy t/cavds
ydp /cat d-no p.6vov tovtov yiyvcoo~KeoBai.
eyco, oStivos eomv.
8'
AeyeaOco, tjv
Ay]jj.0KpdT0VS, tov Al^covecos TrpecrfivTaTOS
6
e<j)7],
vios.
Etev, 'iTnrodaXes,
rjv
o'
yewdiov
c3
eyco, cos
/cat veavtKOV tovtov tov epcoTa TravTaxfj dvrjvpes4
/cat jitot /cat rotcrSe emSet/cvuo-ai,
d
101 em'Seiât
205 Iva et'ScS et imaraarai a xpr\ epaoTrjv irepl TraibiK&v
Trpos avrov npos dXXovs Xeyew.
t)
Tovtcov Se Tl, e<f>r), aradp.3.,

<L
Sco/cpare?, mv
ooe Ae'yet;
i.e. " son of Democrates

"
1
(see below).
10
LYSIS
telling Socrates the name ; yet, if he spends but a

little time with you, he will find you a regular
torment, as he hears you repeat it again and again.
He has deafened our ears, I can tell you, Socrates,
"
by cramming them with " Lysis : let him be a
trifle in liquor, and as likely as not we start out of
our sleep fancying we hear the name of Lysis.
The descriptions he gives us in conversation, though
dreadful enough, are not so very bad : it is when he
sets about inundating us with his poems and prose
compositions. More dreadful than all, he actually
sings about his favourite in an extraordinary voice,
which we have the trial of hearing. And now, at
a question from you, he blushes !
Lysis apparently, I said, is somebody quite young :
this I infer from the fact that I did not recognize
the name when I heard it.
That is because they do not usually call him by
his name, he replied ; he still goes by his paternal
title,1 as his father is so very well known. You must,
I am sure, be anything but ignorant of the boy's
appearance : that alone would be enough to know
him by.
Let me hear, I said, whose son he is.
The eldest son, he replied, of Democrates of
Aexone.
Ah well, I said, Hippothales, what an altogether
noble and gallant love you have discovered there !
Now please go on and give me a performance like
those that you give your friends here, so that I
may know whether you understand what a lover
ought to say of his favourite to his face or to others.
Do you attach any weight, Socrates, he asked, to
anything you have heard this fellow say ?
11
PLATO
to ov
el
8'
YYorepov,
r)v
eyu>, /cat epdv eâpvos
Xeyei oSe;
Ovk eywye, e<f>rj, dXXd p.r) rroielv els ra 7ratSi/cd
/j.rjb'e ovyypd<f>eiv.
0v% vyiaivei, K.Trjoiir7ros, dXXd XrjpeZ re
6
e<f>rj
km p,aiverai,.
Kat eyco elnov ^D. 'linrodaXes, ov ti twv p.erpojv
Seo/nat aKovaai ovoe p,eXos ei ri ireTroi-qKas els rov
B
veavioKov dXXd rfjs Siavolas, Iva elScb riva rpoitov

,
7Tpoacf>eprj rrpos to. 7ratSt/cd.

"OSe hrj-nov aoi, aKpificos yap eiri-
e<f>r), epeZ'
araTat /cat fj,ep,vrjrat, elirep, tbs Xeyei, vir1 ep.ov del
aKovcov SiaredpvXrjraL.
tovs deovs, e<fyq Kr-qanrnos rrdw ye.
6
N17
,
/cat yap eon narayeXaara, ILdiKpares. ro
ydp epaarr)v ovra /cat Sia<f}ep6vra)s row dXXcov <5
rov vow Trpoae\ovra TV faiSi tSt,ov p,ev p,rj8ev

exew Xeyeiv, oiraZs eiTroi, ttcos ov\i
oi3^t kcLv
KarayeXaarov a oe ttoXls oXrj aSet nepl Arjfio-
C
rj
;
Kpdrovs /cat Avcnoos tov Trdmrov rov iraioos /cat

rravrajv -nepi ra~Jv irpoyovuiv, ttXovtovs re /cat
iTTTTOrpo(f>ias /cat viicas YivdoX /cat 'IaQp.oZ /cat
Neyaea. redpimrois re /cat /ceAijat, ravra rtoieZ re
/cat Xeyei, rrpbs Se rovrois en tovtcov KpoviKw-
repa. rov yap rov 'Hpa/cAeous evt,op,6v Trpojrjv
rjpZv ev rroi.rip.ari rwi Stjjei, ai? 8td rr)v rov Hpa-
kX4ovs avyyeveiav rrpoyovos avrCov imoheâiro
6
rov 'Hpa/cAe'a, yeyovws avros e/c Aios re /cat rfjs

D
rov 8-qp.ov dpxrjyerov Ovyarpos, anep at ypaZai
The Pythian Games were held at Delphi, the Isthmian

1
12
LYSIS
Tell me, I said ; do you deny being in love with
the person he mentions ?
Not I, he replied ; but I do deny that I make
poems and compositions on my favourite.
He is in a bad way, said Ctesippus ; why, he raves
like a madman !
Then I remarked : Hippothales, I do not want to
hear your verses, or any ode that you may have
indited to the youth ; I only ask for their purport,
thatI may know your manner of dealing with your
favourite.
I expect this fellow will tell you, he replied : he
has an accurate knowledge and recollection of them,
if there is any truth in what he says of my having
dinned them so constantly in his ears.
Quite so, on my soul, said Ctesippus ; and a
ridiculous story it is too, Socrates. To be a lover,
and to be singularly intent on one's boy, yet to
have nothing particular to tell him that a mere boy
could not say, is surely ridiculous : but he only
writes and relates things that the whole city sings
of, recalling Democrates and the boy's grandfather
Lysis and all his ancestors, with their wealth and
the horses they kept, and their victories at Delphi,
the Isthmus, and Nemea,1 with chariot-teams and
coursers, and, in addition, even hoarier antiquities
than these. Only two days ago he was recounting
to us in some poem of his the entertainment of
Hercules, how on account of his kinship with
Hercules their forefather welcomed the hero, being
himself the offspring of Zeus and of the daughter
of their deme's founder ; such old wives' tales, and
near Corinth, and the Nemean at Nemea, between Corinth

and Argos.
13
PLATO
dSovai, /cat dXXa 7roAAd roiavra, a) HwKpares'
Taur' eorlv a ovtos Xeycov re Kai aScov dvay/cdet
Kai Tj/naj oiKpoacrdau.
Kai e'ytu d/covcra? efTrov TQ KarayeXacrre 'Itttto-
8aXes, irplv vevucqitevai iroieis re /cat aSet? etV
oavrov iyKWfJuov;
'AAA' ovk els efiavrov, e<jyr), c5 "La>Kpares, oure
7T0lu> ovre aSa>.
u/c otet ye, tjv o eya>.
o oe TTCOS exet' eT>1?*
E Tldvriov fidXiora, elnov, eis oe reivovaiv aurai

at cooal. edv p.h> yap eXr/s rd watSt/cd toi-
aura ovra, Koap.os aoi carat rd XeÔevra /cat
dadevra Kai rd> ovri ey/cco/xta axnrep veviKrjKori,
or i roiovrwv naioiKiuv ervês' edv Se ae 8ca</>vyT],
Saw dv p.ell,a> aoi elprjp.eva fj eyKco/xia rrepl rGxv
naiSiKcbv, roaovru) p.eit,6vojv Sonets KaXwv re Kai
dyaâiv iarepr)p,evos KarayeXaaros elvai. oaris
206 oSv rd epcoriKa, <L <f>LXe, ao<f>6s, ovk enaivel rov
epdijxevov rrplv dv eXr/, SeStco? to p,4XXov otttj drro-
fir\aerai. Kai aîa ol KaXol, eneioav ris avroiis
iiraivfj Kai av^rj, (f>povrj(iaros epLmirXavTai Kat
p.eyaXav)(Las' rj ovk olei;
"Eywye, e<f>r].
Ovkovv oocp dv p,eyaXavxprepot. ajai, SvaaXct)-

rorepoi yiyvovrai;
Et/cd? ye.
riotos ris ovv dv aoi SoKeZ drjpevrrjs etvat, et
dvaoofloi drjpevcov /cat hvaaXiororepav rfjv dypav

irotot;
ArjXov on <f>avXos.
14
LYSIS
many more of the sort, Socrates, these are the

things he tells and trolls, while compelling us to be
his audience.
When I heard this I said : Oh, you ridiculous
Hippothales, do you compose and chant a triumph-
song on yourself, before you have won your victory ?
It is not on myself, Socrates, he replied, that I
either compose or chant it.
You think not, I said.
Then what is the truth of it ? he asked.
Most certainly, I replied, it is you to whom these
songs refer. For if you prevail on your favourite,
and he is such as you describe, all that you have
spoken and sung will be so much glory to you, and
a veritable eulogy upon your triumph in having
secured such a favourite as that : whereas if he eludes
your grasp, the higher the terms of your eulogy of
your favourite, the greater will seem to be the
charms and virtues you have lost, and you will
be ridiculed accordingly. Hence anyone who deals
wisely in love-matters, my friend, does not praise
his beloved until he prevails, for fear of what the
future may have in store for him. And besides,
these handsome boys, when so praised and extolled,
become full of pride and haughtiness : do you not
think so ?
I
do, he said.
And then, the haughtier they are, the harder
grows the task of capturing them ?
Yes, apparently.
And what do you think of a hunter who should
scare away his quarry in hunting and make it harder
to catch ?
Clearly he would be a poor one.

PLATO
B Kai Xoyois re /cat aiSat? p.r) KrjXetv dXX
Si]
[lev
eayptalveiv noXXr) dfiovala- yap;
r)
Ao/cet xtot.
ZtKotrei 8rj, ut 'IrnrodaXes, ottcos p.r) naoi rovron
evo^pv oavrov rroirjoeis Std rqv irovrjtnv /catTOi
ot/xat iyw dvSpa Troirjoei. fiXaTrrovra eavrov oi>h
av ae eOeXeiv 6p,oXoyrjcrai cbg dyados ttot ear
7roiijT7j?, fiXafiepos a>v eavrta.
Oi5 /xd rov Ata, e<j>rj' ttoXXt) ydp av dXoyla e"r\
aAAd 8td ravra 8tj aoi,
Jjd>Kpares, dvaKoivovp.ai
to
al rt dAAo eêis, crvp,povXeve rlva dv ti? Adyoi
el
C
hiaXeyop.evos ri irpdrraiv rrpoaîXrjg naioLKoli

rj
yevoiro.
ehrelv dXX
el
8'
0i5 pdhiov, tjv eyu>, /xot e0e

Xrjoais airov Troirjaai eis Xoyovs eXdetv, ioto? 01
8vvalp,r)v ool emSelât., a \pr) aircp 8iaXeyea9a<
dvrl TOVTOtv cov ovtoi. Xeyeiv re /cat aukii
<j>acn ae.
'AAA' ovoev, e<f>r), âAeirdv. av yap eiaeXdj)'.
xterd Kryjcrlmrov rov8e /cat Ka6et,6p.evos StaAeyj;
otp,ai p.ev /cat avros ool Trpooeicn- <f>iXrjKoos yap
TiWKpares, earl, /cat
cS
D
8ia<f>ep6vTa>s d'/xa, til
'Kpp-aZa ayovauv, dvap.ep.eiyp.evoi. iv ravra> elaa

ot re veavioKoi /cat ol TraZ8es' irpoaeiaw ovv ooi
ovvrjdrjs earl 8td tov roirrot
el
8e p.rj, KrrjoiTnrcp
Mevetjevov Meveevip p.ev yap
8r)
dveiftiov Trdvrcoi
p-dXiora eraZpos wv rvyxdvei. KaXeadrw ovv ovtoi

\âvr6v, edv dpa p,r) npoaiy) avros.
Tavra,
r)v
8'
noieZv.
C
ey<l>, %pr) /cat d/xa AajSd)

I
16
LYSIS
And hence to use speech and song, not for charming
1
but for driving wild, would be gross fatuity, would
it not ?
I think so.
Then take care, Hippothales, not to make yourself
guilty of all these things by your verse-making ;
and yet I fancy you will not like to allow that a
man who damages himself by poetry can be a good l
poet, so long as he is damaging to himself.

On my soul, no, he said ; of course it would be
most absurd. But this is the very reason, Socrates,
why "I impart my feelings to you, and ask you for
any useful advice you can give as to what conversa
tion or conduct will help to endear one to one's
favourite.
That is not an easy thing to tell, I replied ; but
if you will agree to get him to have a talk with me,
I daresay I could show you an example of the
conversation you should hold with him, instead of
those things that your friends say you speak and sing.
There is no difficulty about that, he said. If you
will go in with Ctesippus here, and take a seat and
talk, I think he will come to you of his own accord ;
he is singularly fond of listening, Socrates, and
besides, they are keeping the Hermaea,1 so that
the youths and boys are all mingled together. So
he will come to you : but if he does not, Ctesippus
is intimate with him, as being a cousin of*Mene-
xenus ; for Lysis has chosen Menexenus for his parti
cular friend. So let Ctesippus call him if you find
that he does not come of himself.
That is what I must do, I said. Whereupon I took
1
The festival of Hermes, who was specially honoured in
wrestling-schools.
VOL. v c 17
PLATO
E rov Hrrjannrov irpoafja els rr)v TraXalorpav ol 8

aAAot vorepoi -qutov fioav. elaeXdovres 8e /car-
eXdfiouev avrodi redvKoras re rovs iralSas kcu
to. rrepl to. lepeta cr%e86v ri irjueva,
rjBrj rreTro
dcrrpayaXit,ovrds re Kal KeKocrpLrjuevovs drrav-
8r)
ras. ol uev ovv ttoXXoI ev rfj avXfj erraiôv e$oi,
ol he rives rov dirohvT-qpiov ev ytovlq r)prlaI,ov
dorpaydXois TraunoXXois, ex <f>opuicrKtov rivwv
Trpoai.povp.evoi.' rovrovs he rrepiiaraaav aXXoi deio-
povvres. cuv kcu 8r) Avois ijvj'/cai elarrjKV.
6
207 eV rots rraial re kcu veavioKois ecrre(f>avojuevos
Kal rr)v oifriv 8iaxf>epaiv, ov ro koXos etvcu piovov
dios clkovctcu, dXX' on koXos re Kayados. Kal
I
-quels els ro KaravriKpv aTroxcoprjoavres eKade-
ydp avrodi. ijauî'a koL ti aXXrjXois
f)v
6ue6a
SieXeyoueda. Trepicrrpeifiouevos ovv Averts Oapa.
6
eneoKOTreZro rjuas, Kal BrjXos
rjv
emdvucbv rrpoa-
eXdelv. rims uev ovv rjrropei re /cat toKvei piovos
Trpooievai- erreira Meveijevos eK rfjs avXfjs
B
p.t-
6
raî) rrallojv eloepxerai, Kal tbs etSev iue re Kal

rov K.rrjonnrov, rjei rrapaKadit/qoouevos' IScov ovv
avrov Avois eartero Kal ovuTrapeKadel,ero pcera
6
rov Meveevov. Kal ol aXXoi,

8r)
TrpoorjXOov
\>
Kai or) Kai o LTnTOuaArjs, eTreior) -rrAeiovs ecopa
eîara'uevovs rovrovs eTrqXvyioduevos TrpoaeaTi]

,
ur) ipero Karotfieodac rov Avoiv, 8e8icos p.i\

fj
ayrip aTrexOdvoi.ro' Kai ovra> Trpoaearcos rjKpoa.ro.

Kai eyco rrpos rov Meveevov drrofiXetpas, tO
'
7701
'
Ar]uo(j)a)vros, vucov Trpeoftvre-

r)v
eyco, -rrorepos
pos;
18
LYSIS
Ctesippus with me into the wrestling-school, and
the others came after us. When we got inside,
we found that the boys had performed the sacrifice
in the place and, as the ceremonial business was
now almost over, they were all playing at knuckle
bones and wearing their finest attire. Most of
them were playing in the court out-of-doors ; but
some were at a game of odd-and-even in a corner
of the undressing-room, with a great lot of knuckle
bones which they drew from little baskets ; and there
were others standing about them and looking on.
Among these was Lysis : he stood among the boys
and youths with a garland on his head, a distinguished
figure, deserving not merely the name of well-
favoured, but also of well-made and well-bred.
As for us, we went and sat apart on the opposite
side for it was quiet there and started some talk
amongst ourselves. The result was that Lysis ever
and anon turned round to observe us, and was
obviously eager to join us. For a while, however,
he hesitated, being too shy to approach us alone ;
till Menexenus stepped in for a moment from his
game in the court and, on seeing me and Ctesippus,
came to take a seat beside us. When Lysis saw
him, he came along too and sat down with Mene
xenus. Then all the others came to us also ; and I
must add that Hippothales, when he saw a good many
of them standing there, stood so as to be screened
by them, in a position where he thought Lysis
would not catch sight of him, as he feared that he
might irritate him ; in this way he stood by and
listened.
Then I, looking
at Menexenus, asked him : Son
of Demophon, which is the elder of you two ?
19
PLATO
'A/j,(f>icrpr]TOVfj,ev, ecfrr).
C Ovkovv Kal orrorepos yevvatorepos, epit,oir civ,
rjv o eyw.
Haw ye, ecf>rj.
Kai p.r)v onorepos ye KaAAiwv, cbcravrcos.
EyeAaoarrjv ovv ap.<f>co.
Ov firjv OTrorepos y, ecjjrjv, rrAovauLrepos vp.6~jv,
ovk eprjoo/jLai,- <f>iAa) yap earov. rj yap;
Udvv y , i(j)drrjv. <
Ovkovv kolvol to. ye <f>lAcov Aeyerai, ware rovTCp

ye ovSev Stoiaerov, e'lrrep dArjdrj nepl rfjs (f>iAias
Aeyerov.
Tivve(f>arrjV .
D 'Eirexelpovv or] p,erd rovro epwrav OTrorepos

oiKaiorepos Kal ao<j>(x>repos avrajv elrj. p,era.$;i>
ovv ris rrpoaeAdcbv dvearrjcre rov M.eveevov, <p&-
oku)v KaAeZv rov rraioor plfirjv eSoKei yap fioi iepo-
TTOicbv rvyx&veuv. eKeZvos p.ev ovv arêro- y Se
rov Avaiv rjpop,rjv, H rtov, rjv o eya>, a> Aucrij
o(f>68pa <j)iAeZ ere 6 rrarr)p Kal r) p,rjrrjp; Yldvv
ye, rj 8' os.' Ovkovv fiovAowro av ae ojs evoaipuo-
E veararov elvai; Hws yap ov; Aoreei Se croi ev-
oaipôjv etvai avOpcorros SovAevcov re Kal w p,r]8ev
eêlrj rroieZv 3>v emQv\i.oZ ; Md A" ovk ep.oi.ye,
Ovkovv rtarr\p Kal
e'l
oe p,rp-rjp
6
e<f>rj.
r)
<f)cAeZ
Kal evSalfiovd oe emdvfiovoi. yeveodai, rovro
Travrl rporrcp 8rjAov ort, rrpodvp-ovvrai ottios av
evo'aip.ovolrjs Hcos yap ou^t; ^4>rl-
'EcSow
dpa ae a fiovAei rroieZv, Kal ovSev emnAijrrowTiv
ov8e hiaKOjAvovai rroieZv &v av eTn6vp.f\s Nat
;
p,d A" ifxe ye, to JlcoKpares, real p.dAa ye noAAa.
20
LYSIS
It is a point in dispute between us, he replied.
Then you must also be at variance, I said, as to
which is the nobler.
Yes, to be sure, he said.
And moreover, which is the more beautiful,
likewise.
This made them both laugh.
But of course I shall not ask, I said, which of you
is the wealthier ; for you are friends, are you not ?
Certainly we are, they replied.

And, you know, friends are said to have every
thing in common, so that here at least there will be
no difference between you, if what you say of your
friendship is true.
They agreed.
After that I was proceeding to ask them which
was the juster and wiser of the two, when I was
interrupted by somebody who came and fetched
away Menexenus, saying that the wrestling-master
was calling him : I understood that he was taking
some part in the rites. So he went off ; and then
I asked Lysis : I suppose, Lysis, your father and
mother are exceedingly fond of you ? Yes, to be
sure, he replied. Then they would like you to be
as happy as possible ? Yes, of course. Do you
consider that a man is happy when enslaved and
restricted from doing everything he desires ? Not
I, on my word, he said. Then if your father and
mother are fond of you, and desire to see you happy,
it is perfectly plain that they are anxious to secure
your happiness. They must be, of course, he said.
Hence they allow you to do what you like, and
never scold you, or hinder you from doing what you
desire ? Yes, they do, Socrates, I assure you :
21
PLATO
koiXvovgiv. Xeyets; fy 8' eyui.
Hu>s /JouAd-
208 p-evoi ae [MaKapiov elvai SiaKioXvovai rovro Troieiv
o av povArj; code oe p,oi Aeye. r/v eirwvpvqar]'; em
twos tu>v rov narpos dpfidrcov oxeladai Xaficov
rds rjvias, orav d/xtAAarai, ovk av ewev ae dAAd
oiaKcoXuoiev ; Md At" ov /MevTOi av, e<fyr], ecpev.
'AAAd rlva pvqv; "Eon tis rjvloxos irapd tov
narpos fiiadov <f>epcov. II
Xeyeis; pnadcoTco
u>s
p.aXXov emrpeirovow rj ooi iroieiv o ri av jSouA^rat

nepi rovs lttttovs, /cat npooeTL avrov tovtov
g apyvpiov reXovow; 'AAAd ri pvt\v; e<f>r). 'AAAd
rov opiKov evyovs, otp,ai, emTpeirovai ooi dpxeuv,
Kav el fiovXoio Xafioov ttjv p,donya riwreiv, ecoev
av. llouev, rj o os, ecpev; It be; r)v o eyto-
ovSevl eêarw avrovs tvtttcw; Kat p,dXa, ecf>7],
ru> opeoKOfioi). AovXw ovn r] eXevOepop; AovAcu,
e<f>rj. KatSovXoy, cLs eoiKev, rjyowTai vepl
TrXeiovos rj ae tov vlov, /cat emrpeTTOvoi rd eavTcov
C //.aAAov 77 aoi, /cat eaWt TroieZv o rt fiovXerai, are
oe oiaKUiXvovai ; . /cat p,oi ert roSe elire. are
avrov ecoaiv dpxetv aeavrov, r) oihe tovto im-
Tpeiroval aot; Haas ydp, e<f>r), emTpeirovoiv ; 'AAA'
dpxei rt? gov; "OSe, iraihaycoyos , e<f>r). Mcov
oovXos tov; 'AAAd ri (irjv; rj/Merepos ye, e<f>rj.
TH heivov, eyco, eXevdepov ovra vno oovXov
8'
r]v
apxôdai. ri he ttoicHv afi ovtos iraihayooyos

6
gov dpxei; "Ayotv hrqirov, e<f>rj, els StSacr/cdAou.

Mtuv p,rj /cat ofirol gov dpxovaiv, ol StSdcr/caAot;
HapiiroXXovs dpa ooi SetTôra?
D
TldvTcos SrjTrov.
The vaidayuySs was a trusted slave who was appointed

1
to attend on a boy out of school hours and to have a general

control over his conduct and industry.
22
LYSIS
they stop me from doing a great many things. How
do you mean ? I they wish you to be happy,
said :
and yet hinder you from doing what you like ?

But answer me this : suppose you desire to ride in
one of your father's chariots and hold the reins in
some race ; they will not allow you, but will prevent
you ? That is so, to be sure, he said ; they will not
allow me. But whom would they allow ? There
is a driver, in my father's pay. What do you say ?
A hireling, whom they trust rather than you, so
that he can do whatever he pleases with the horses ;
and they pay him besides a salary for doing that !
Why, of course, he said. Well, but they trust you
with the control of the mule-cart, and if you wanted
to take the whip and lash the team, they would
let you ? Nothing of the sort, he said. Why, I
asked, is nobody allowed to lash them ? Oh yes,
, he said, the muleteer. Is he a slave, or free ? A
slave, he replied. So it seems that they value a
1
slave more highly than you, their son, and entrust
him rather than you with their property, and allow
him to do what he likes, while preventing you ?
And now there is one thing more you must tell me.
'
Do they let you control your own self, or will they
I not trust you in that either ? Of course they do
not, he replied. But some one controls you ? Yes,
he said, my tutor1 here. Is he a slave? Why,
certainly ; he belongs to us, he said. What a
strange thing, I exclaimed; a. free man controlled
by a slave ! But how does this tutor actually exert
his control over you ? By taking me to school, I
suppose, he replied. And your schoolmasters, can
it be that they also control you ? I should think
they do ! Then quite a large number of masters
23
PLATO
/ecu apxovras eKcov 6 Trarrjp ecfriarrjoiv . dAA'
apa erreihav oiKaSe eX8rjs rrapd tt)v p,r]Tepa, eKeivq
ae ea noieiv o tl av fiovXrj, Iv* avrrj p.aKapios
7]S, y\ TTi.pi ra epia r) nepl rov Iotov, otov v<f>aivrj ;
(ov Tt yap ttov hiaKCoXvei ae rj rrjs OTrddrjs r) rrjs
KepKioos rj dXXov tov tcov rrepl TaXaaiovpyiav
opyavcov arrTeodaij Kai os yeXdaas, Ma Aia,
e<f>rj, co TicoKpares, ov p,6vov ye oiaKcoXvei, dAAa.
E Kai TVTTTolpirjV av el aTrToip,rjv. 'Hpd/cAeiy, rjv
8' eyco, p.cov fj,rj ti r)oiK7]Kas tov rrarepa r) rr)v
\x,ryrepa; Md A"
ovk eycoye, e(f>rj.
'AAA' dvrl tivos p>r)v ovtio ae oeivtos SiaKcoXvov-
aw ev8aip,ova etvai Kai rroieiv o ti av jSoJAtj, icat
Si' r)/j,epas SXr/s Tpecjtoval ae del rep oovXevovra.
Kai evl Xoycp dXlyov cov emdvp,els ovoev ttoiovvtoS
ware aot, cos eoiKev, ovre tcov xfi^P-drcov tooovtcov
209 ovtcov ovoev dXXa rravres avTcov /xaAAov
6cf>eXos,
apxovaiv rj av, ovre tov ocop,aTos ovtco yevvalov

ovtos, aXXa Kai tovto dXXos Troip,aivei Kai depa-
Trevei-ail Se dpxeis oySevos, 10 Aval, ov8e rroieis
ovSev cov emOvp,els. %\ Ov yap ttco, e<f>rj, rjXiKiav
exa>, co JLcoKpaTes. Mr) ov tovto ae, co 770.1
Arjp.oKparovs, kcoXvtj, errei to ye ToaovSe, cos

eywp.ai, Kai o TraTrjp Kai r) \xrp-r\p aoi emTperrovai,
Kai ovk avap.evovaiv ecos av rjXiKiav exZ)S. orav
yap povXcovTai avrois riva dvayvcoadrjvai r) ypa-
B cprjvai, ae, cos eywfiai, rrpcoTov tcov ev ttj oikio.
em tovto TaTTOvaiv. 97 ydp; IT aw y , ecf>rj.
Ovkovv e(;eoTi aoi evrauo'' o ti av fiovXr) rrpcorov
tcov ypap.p.aTcov ypd<f>eiv Kai o ri av SevTepov Kai
24
LYSIS
and controllers are deliberately set over you by
your father. But when you come home to your
mother, she surely lets you do what you like, that
she may make you happy, either with her wool or
her loom, when she is weaving ? I take it she does
not prevent you from handling her batten, or her
comb, or any other of her wool-work implements.
At this he laughed and said : I promise you, Socrates,
not only does she prevent me, but I should get a
beating as well, if I laid hands on them. Good
heavens ! I said : can it be that you have done your
father or mother some wrong ? On my word, no, he
replied.
Well, what reason can they have for so strangely
1
preventing you from being happy and doing what
you like ? Why do they maintain you all day long
in constant servitude to somebody, so that, in a
word, you do hardly a single thing that you desire ?
'I
And thus, it would seem, you get no advantage from
I all your great possessions nay, anyone else controls
them rather than you nor from your own person,

though so well-born, which is also shepherded and
managed by another ; while you, Lysis, control
I
nobody, and do nothing that you desire. It is
, because I am not yet of age, Socrates, he said.
That can hardly be the hindrance, son of Demo-
crates, since there is a certain amount, I imagine,
that your father and mother entrust to you without
waiting until you come of age. For when they
want some reading or writing done for them, it is
you, I conceive, whom they appoint to do it before
any others of the household. Is it not so ? Quite
so, he replied. And you are free there to choose
which letter you shall write first and which second,
25
PLATO
dvayiyvuiaKeiv cboavrtus eeonk_ /ecu erreiZdv, cos

eycppai, ttjv Xvpav Xdftrjs, ov 8iaKcoXvovcrl ere ovd'
6 rrarrjp ovd' r) pr\rr\p imretval re /ecu dveZvat fjv
dv fiovXy rcov xop8wv, /ecu ifirjXai, /ecu Kpoveiv tco
TrXfJKrpco. rj 8iaKtoXvovatv ; Ov 8rjra. fTi rror'
dv oSv elrj, c5 Aval, to atnov on evravda pev ov
C oiaKLoXvovcriv, ev ots 8e dpn eXeyopev kloXvovctiv ;
'On, otpai, e<j>rj, ravra pev emWo/wi, e/ceiva S'
ov. hilev, fjv o apcare' ovk apa rrjv
eyco, to
rjXiKiav aov rrepipevei 6 irarr/p emrpeireiv rravra,

dXX' rj dv rjpepa rjyrjorjraL ae fieXnov avrov <f>po-
veiv, ravrr) ernrph\se\, aoi /ecu avrov /ecu ra avrov.
Otpai eycoye, e<j>r). Etev, eyco- rl 8e; tco
8'
r)v
yeirovi dp' airos opos ajcmep ru> rrarpi
6
ov%
nepl gov; rtorepov oiei avrov emrpeireiv 001 -rrjv
avrov oliciav oiKovopelv orav oe rjyqarjrai fleXriov
,
nepl o'iKOVopias eavrov <f>povelv, avrov erriara.-

D
r]
rrjaeiv; 'Euoi emrpei/ieiv otpai. Ti 8

; 'A.9rj-
vaiovs oiei aoi ovk emrpeijieiv rd avrcov, orav
aladdvtovrai on iKavcos <f>poveis "ULywyel* Ilpds
;
Aids, rl
8'
r)v
eyco, apa peyas fiaaiXevs; rtorepov

6
rco rrpea^vrdrco vlei, 0$ rfjs 'Aolas dpxrj yiy-

r)
verai, paXXov dv emrpetfieiev iiftopevcov Kpecov

[epfidXXeiv]1 o n dv fiovXrjrai epfiaXeiv els rov
el
rjp.lv, eiceTvov eVSet-

E
copov, a<f>iKopevoi Trap

rj
aipe9a aiirco, on rjpels koXXiov (fipovovpev

6
rj
vlos avrov rrepl oif/ov atcevaoias 'Hpiv 8rjXov on,

;
e<f>r).
Kai rov piv ye ov8' dv opixpov edaeiev
ûjSdXXeu' seel. Heindorf.
1
26
LYSIS
i
and you have a like choice in reading. And, I

suppose, when you take your lyre, neither your
father nor your mother prevents you from tightening
or slackening what string you please, or from using
your finger or your plectrum at will : or do they
prevent you ? Oh, no. Then whatever can be the
reason, Lysis, why they do not prevent you here,
while in the matters we were just mentioning they
do ? I suppose, he said, because I understand these
things, but not those others. Very well, I said, my
excellent friend : so it is not your coming of age
that your father is waiting for, as the time for
entrusting you with everything ; but on the day
when he considers you to have a better intelligence
than himself, he will entrust you with himself and
all that is his. Yes, I think so, he said. Very well,
I went on, but tell me, does not your neighbour
observe the same rule as your father towards you ?
'|
Do you think he will entrust you with the manage-
I ment of his house, as soon as he considers you to
have a better idea of its management than himself,
or will he direct it himself ? I should say he would
entrust, it to me. Well then, do you not think that
1 the Athenians will entrust you with their affairs,
, when they perceive that you have sufficient in
telligence ? I do. Ah, do let me ask this, I went
on : what, pray, of the Great King ? Would he
allow his eldest son, heir-apparent to the throne
of Asia, to put what he chose into the royal stew,
or would he prefer us to do it, supposing we came
before him and convinced him that we had a better
notion than his son of preparing a tasty dish ?
Clearly he would prefer us, he said. And he would
not allow the prince to put in the smallest bit,
27
PLATO
i/jipaXeiv r)p,as Se, /caV el fiovXolp,e9a Spaâ/xevot

raw aXdJv eairj dv ep-fiaXelv. IIws yap ov; Ti S'
el roils 6<f>6aXp,ovs 6 vlos avrov dadevoZ, apa eatij
dv avrov drrreaOai. raJv iavrov 6<pdaXp.a>v, fjL-rj
210 larpov -qyovpievos, r) kcdXvoi. av; Ka/Auoi av.
H/xa? Se ye el vrroXapfidvoi larpiKOVS elvai, Kav el
'
jiovXolp.eda oiavolyovres rovs otpdaXpovs ep.7Ta.acLL

rrjs re<j>pas, olp,ai, ovk av KOiXvaeiev, rjyovp.evos'
opdws <f>poveZv. 'AXrjdrj Xeyets. TAp' ovv /cat
raXXa rtdvra 7]p.Zv imrpenoi av p,aXXov rj eavrcp
Kal ru> vleZ, irepl dautv av 86a>p.ev avra> aocpayre-
pai eKeivwv elvai; 'AvdyK-q, e<f>r), w Tid>Kpares.
' (Jvrais apa eêi, rjv o eyw, a> <piAe Avon- eis
B p-ev ravra, a dv <f>p6vip,ot drravres
yevoipeda,
r]pA.v eirirpeipovaiv, "EXXr/ves re Kal ftdpftapoi. /cat
dvSpes Kal yvvaiKes, TTOirjoop.ev re ev rovrois o tl
av l3ovX(x)p,e8a, Kal ovSeis rjp.a.s eKcbv elvai e/j.rro-
Sieij dXX' avroi re eXevdepoi eaopieda ev avrois /cat
dXXa>v dpxovres, re ravra ear at.- ovr)-
r)p,erepd
oop,eda yap <x7r' avraJv els a ' dv vovv p.r) K-rrj-
otbp,eda, ovre ris r)p,Zv emrpetfiei nepl avrd rroieiv
to. 7jp.lv 8oi<ovvra, dXX' ep,TToBiovai rravres KaO' o
C ti ov Svvaivrai, ov p.6vov ol aXXorpwi, dXXd Kal 6
narrjp Kal r) p,rjrr]p /cat ei ri rovrojv oiKeiorepov
earw, avroi re ev avroZs eaopeda dXXojv vtttjkooi,
Kal rjpuv earai dXXorpia- ovoev yap an' avrcov
6v7]o6p,e9a. avy\a)peZs ovrats eêiv ; Suy^copcu.*
*Ap' ovv rep (J)IXol iaop.e0a Kal ris r)p,ds ^tAijcrct
ev rovrois, ev ols dv <hp.ev dvu><f>eXeZs ; Ov orjra,
28
LYSIS
|
whereas he would let us have our way even if we
wanted to put in salt by the handful. Why, of
i course. Again, if his son has something the matter
'
with his eyes, would he let him meddle with them
I himself, if he considered him to be no doctor, or
would he prevent him ? He would prevent him.
But if he supposed us to have medical skill, he would
not prevent us, I imagine, even though we wanted
to pull the eyes open and sprinkle them with ashes,
so long as he believed our judgement to be sound.
| That is true. So he would entrust us, rather than

himself or his son, with all his other affairs besides,
wherever he felt we were more skilled than they ?
Necessarily, he said, Socrates.
The case then, my dear Lysis, I said, stands thus :
with regard to matters in which we become intelligent,
every one will entrust us with them, whether Greeks
foreigners, men or women and in such matters we
;
shall do as we please, and nobody will care to obstruct

Ior
us. Nay, not only shall we ourselves be free and

have control of others in these affairs, but they
will also belong to us, since we shall derive advantage
from them whereas in all those for which we have
L
failed to acquire intelligence, so far will anyone

I
be from permitting us to deal with them as we

I
think fit, that everybody will do his utmost to

obstruct us not merely strangers, but father and
i
mother and any more intimate person than they

;
and we on our part shall be subject to others in

such matters, which will be no concern of ours,
since we shall draw no advantage from them. Do
'
you agree to this account of the case? agree.

I
Then will anyone count us his friends or have any

affection for us in those matters for which we are
29
PLATO
etjyr]. Nvv dpa ov8e ae 6 narrfp ovSe dXXos dXAov

ovoeva <f>iXei, ko.9' oaov dv fj dxprjaTOS. Ovk
eoiKev, 'Kdv p-ev dpa ao<f>6s yevr], w iraZ,
e<f>rj.
D Travres crot <f>iXoi Kai irdvTes aoi ot/ceiot eaovTai-

Xprjcnp-os yap Kai dyados earf el oe pJ], aol oure
dXXos onsets' ovt 6 TraTrip (f>lXos carat ovre rj
p,rqTrjp ovre ol oiKeloi. olov re ovv em tovtols,
<L Aval, p,eya <f>povelv, ev ols ris pA\Tno <f>povet;
Kai ttcos dv; e<f>r).
Ei 8' dpa av oioaaxaXov
oer), ovttoj <f>povels. 'AXrjOrj. 0u8' dpa /ieya-
X6<f>pojvel, eirrep d<f>poov eri. Md Ata, e<f>r), <L
TiU)Kpares, ov poi ooKei.
E Kai eyeb dteovaas avrov dne^Xetfia npos tov
'ImroOdXrj, Kai oXiyov e-qp.aprov eTrfjXde yap
p,oi threw on & 'ImroOaXes, -rots
Outco XP~h>
TraioiKois BiaXeyeadai, TanewovvTa Kai avareX-

Xovra, dXXd p.rj wairep av pwowTa Kai Sta-
dpvTTTOvra. Kariochv ow avrov dycovtcovra /cat
TedopvpTjp.evov vtto twv Xeyop.evu>v , dvep.vâdrjv
on Kat Trpoaearws Xavddvew tov Avaiv efiovXeTo-
211 dveXafiov ovv ep,avrov /cat eireaxov tov Xoyov.
''Kai ev tovtoj 6 Meveevos irdXiv fJKe, /cat eKo.0-
et,TO -napd tov Avaiv, oOev ko.1 eâveaT-q. 6
odv Avacs p,dXa iraioiKois Kai (friXiKws, Xddpa tov
Meveevov, ap,iKpov npos p.e Xeycov e<f>rj- TQ Zco-
Kpares, dnep Kai ip,ol Xeyeis, elne Kai M.eveevcp.
Kat eyeb elirov, Taura p,ev ail avTw epeis, a>
Avar ndvTcos yap npoaeixes tov vow.

Hdvv p,ev ovv, e(f>r].
SO
LYSIS
useless ? Surely not, he said. So now, you see,
your father does not love you, nor does anyone
love anyone else, so far as one is useless. Apparently
not, he said. Then if you can become wise, my
boy, everybody will be your friend, every one will
be intimate with you, since you will be useful and
good ; otherwise, no one at all, not your father,

nor your mother, nor your intimate connexions,
will be your friends. Now is it possible, Lysis, to
have a high notion of yourself in matters of which
! you have as yet no notion ? Why, how can I ? he
said. Then if you are in need of a teacher, you
have as yet no notion of things ? True. Nor can
you have a great notion of yourself, if you are still
notionless. Upon my word, Socrates, he said, I do
not see how I can.
On hearing him answer this, I
glanced at Hippo- .
thales, and nearly made a blunder, for it came into

|
i my mind to say This is the way, Hippothales, in
:
which you should talk to your favourite, humbling

and reducing him, instead of puffing him up and
spoiling him, as you do now. Well, I noticed that he

. was in an agony of embarrassment at what we had
been saying, and I remembered how, in standing near,
i he wished to hide himself from Lysis. So I checked
myself and withheld this remark. In the mean
time, Menexenus came back, and sat down by Lysis
in the place he had left on going out. Then Lysis,
in a most playful, affectionate manner, unobserved
by Menexenus, said softly to me : Socrates, tell
Menexenus what you have been saying to me.
To which I replied : You shall tell it him yourself,
Lysis ; for you gave it your closest attention.
I did, indeed, he said.
31
PLATO
Heipco roivvv, rjV 8' eyed, aTTOfwrjuovevaai aura

B Sri fidXiara, Iva rovrco oa<f>cos Wvra eiirrjs' lectv
8e rt avrcov emXddr], aSdls /x dvepea&ai otolv
evrvxus npcorov.[
'AAAd TTOirjcra), e<f>r), ravra, TicoKpares, rrcxvv
J>
o<f>68pa, e$ Xadi. dXXd tl dXXo avrcp Xeye,

iva /ecu eyco olkovco, ecos av oiKa8e topa. rj
amevai.
'AAAd xprj rroieiv ravra, rjv 8' eyed, eWiSrj ye
Kai av KeXeveis. dAAd Spa Sncos imKovprfcreis
p.01, edv pie eXeyxeiv emxeipfj 6 Meveijevos' t) ovk
ottjQa Sri epiariKos eariv;
Nai Ai'a, ecf>rj, otf>68pa ye' 8id ravrd
p,d tol
Kal fiovXopiai ae avrcp 8iaXeyeadai.
C "Iva, r(v 8' eyco, KarayeXaaros yevcopiai;
Ov p.a Aia, ecj>r), aXX Iva avrov KoXdcrrjs.
fjv
HoOev; ov pd8iov yap

8'
eyco- Seivos
6
dvOpcoTTOS, KrTjannrov p,ady]rrjs. ndpeori 8e tol
avros ov\ Spas; Ktôwto?
.
MijSerdy ooi, e<f>r), p,eXerco, to HcoKpares, d.XX'

I
?0i StaAe'yov avrcp.

/
AiaXeKreov, rjv eyco.

8
4
Tavra ofiv rjpicov

Xeyovrcov irpos rjpias avrovs,
TY vpieis, e<f)7j VirTJaiTTTTOS, avrco p,ovco earicx-
S
adov, rjpXv 8e ov p,era8i8orov rcov Xoycov;

yap
fjv
'AAAd S8e
8'
D
p.rjv, eyed, pi.era8ore.ov.

ri cov ov piavddvei, dXXd cf>-qoiv o'ieo6a.i
Xeyco
Meveevov elSevai, Kal KeXevei rovrov epcorav.
ovv, rt os, ovk epcoras;
o
i
AAAep-qaop.ai, ijv o eyco. Kai

enre, co
p.01
Meveeve, o av ae epcopiai. rvy\dvco yap k
nai86s emOvpicov Krrj/Aaros rov, coonep dXXos
32
LYSIS
Then try, I
went on, to recollect it as well as you
can, so that you tell him the whole of it clearly :
but if you forget any of it, mind that you ask me for
it again when next you meet me.
I will do so, Socrates, he said, by all means, I
assure you. But tell him something else, that I
may hear it too, until it is time to go home.
Well, I must do so, I said, since it is you who bid
me. But be ready to come to my support, in case
Menexenus attempts to refute me. You know what
a keen disputant he is.
Yes, on my word, very keen ; that is why I want
you to have a talk with him. :
So that I may make myself ridiculous ? I said.
No, no, indeed, he replied ; I want you to trounce
him.
How can I ? I asked. It is not easy, when the
fellow is so formidable a pupil of Ctesippus. And

here do you not see ? is Ctesippus himself.
Take no heed of anyone, Socrates, he said ; just
go on and have a talk with him.
I must comply, I said.
Now, as these words passed between us, What
is this feast, said Ctesippus, that you two are having
by yourselves, without allowing us a share in your
talk?
Well, well, I replied, we must give you a share.
My friend here fails to understand something that
I have been saying, but tells me he thinks Mene
xenus knows, and he urges me to question him.
Why not ask him then ? said he.
But I am going to, I replied. Now please answer,
Menexenus, whatever question I may ask you.
There is a certain possession that I have desired
vol. v d 33
PLATO
dXXov. 6 p,ev yap ris Ittttovs emdvp,el KraoOai,

o oe Kvvas, o be XPVOLOV> 0 Tifxas' eyco oe irpos
p,ev ravTa Trpacos rrpos Se ttjv toiv <f>l\iov
eXaj
Krrjaiv ttovv ipa)Ti.Ku>s, Kal f$ovXoi.p.r)v av /zot
<j>iXov dyadov yeveodac p,dXXov r) tov apiarov ev
dvdpwiTois oprvya 77 aXeKTpvova, Kal val p,d Ata
eyorye ^.aAAov 77
Ittttov re Kal Kvva- oijuai Se',
tov Kvva, p,dXXov to Aapelov \pvoiov kttj-
it)
rj
oao0ai\oealpr)v\jToXv vporepov eraipov Jt-p-aXXov
r)
avrov Aapeiov\ovra>s iy<h (jyiXeraipos tIs elfJU.
212ivp,ds oSv opwv, oe re Kal Avow, eKveTrXr)yp,ai, /cat
ev8aip,ovlco on ovtoj veoi ovres otoi r eoTOv
,
tovto to KTrjp,a ra)(v Kal pq8iios KTO.odai, Kai av

Te tovtov ovtco <f)lXov eKT-qaoi ra\v Te Kai o(f>6-
Spa, Kal afi ofiros oe1 eycb oe ovtoj itoppoi elpl tov
KTrip.aTOS, wore ov8' ovriva rpoTtov yiyverai <j>lXos
erepos erepov oiSa, dAAa ravra avra oe j3ov-
St)
Ao/xai epeoOai are epvneipov.

K
Kai p.01 elne- eneiSdv ti? rwa <f>tXfj, irorepos

irorepov cjilXos yiyverai, tov îXovpuevov
B
(fytXwv
6
(f>iXovp,evos tov <f>iXovvros' ovSev Siaêpei;

6
q
r)
OuSeV, e<f>r), efxoiye So/cei 8t,acf>epeiv. Hu>s Xeyeis;

ijv
iyoj- apL(f>OTepoi dpa aXXrjXcov <f>t.Xoi. yiyvovT<xi,

S
edv p.6vos erepos tov erepov "E/zoiye, e^T?,

6
(f>t>Xfj;
So/cei. Ti Se; ovk eon avn^tAei-

<f>iXovvra p.r]
oOai vtto tovtov ov dv <f>iXfj; "E0-7W. Ti Se; apa
eon Kal pLioelodai <f>iXovvra; oiov ttov eviore 00-
kovoi Kal ol epaoral Trdo~xeiv npos ra TratSi/cd"
34
LYSIS
from my childhood, as every one does in his own
way. One person wants to get possession of horses,
another dogs, another money, and another dis
tinctions : of these things I reck little, but for the
possession of friends I have quite a passionate
longing, and would rather obtain a good friend
than the best quail or cock in the world ; yes, and
rather, I swear, than any horse or dog. I believe,
indeed, by the Dog, that rather than all Darius 's
gold I would choose to gain a dear comrade far
sooner than I would Darius himself, so fond I am
of my comrades. Accordingly, when I see you
and Lysis together, I am quite beside myself, and
congratulate you on being able, at such an early

age, to gain this possession so quickly and easily ;
since you, Menexenus, have so quickly and surely
acquired his friendship, and he likewise yours :
whereas I am so far from acquiring such a thing,
that I do not even know in what way one person
becomes a friend of another, and am constrained
to ask you about this very point, in view of your
experience.
Now tell me : when one person loves another,
which of the two becomes friend of the other
the loving of the loved, or the loved of the loving ?
Or is there no difference ? There is none, he replied,
in my opinion. How is that ? I said ; do you mean
that both become friends mutually, when there is
only one loving the other ? Yes, I think so, he
replied. But I ask you, is it not possible for one
loving not to be loved by him whom he loves ? It
But again, may he not be even hated while
is.
loving This, imagine, is the sort of thing that

I
?
lovers do sometimes seem to incur with their
35
PLATO
C <f>iXovvres yap otov re [idAiara ol uev1 o'wvrai

cos
ovk dvricfriXeiaOai, ol 8e Kal pnaeZodai- r) ovk
dXr/des 8o/cei aoi rovro; E^dSpa ye, ecj)rj, dXrjdes.
Ovkovv iv to) roiovrco, rjv 8' eyco, 6 fiev <f>iXeZ, o
8e cj)iXeZrai; Nat.
Horepos ovv avrcov rrorepov
<f>iXos
iariv; 6 <j)iXaJv rov <f>iXovp,evov, idv re Kal
dvricj>t,Xrjrai. idv re /cat p.Larjrai, rj 6 (f>iXovuevos
rov <f>iXovvros ; r] ovSerepos av ev rco roiovrco ovS-
eripov cj>iXos iariv, dv Lirj dp,cf}6repoi dXXiqXovs
D <j>iXcoaiv; "Eot/ce yovv ovrtos eêiv. 'AXXoCcos
dpa vvv
rjfiZv 8o/cei rj rtporepov eooêv. Tore
[lev ydp, el 6 erepos <f>iXoZ, <f>iXco elvai dp.<f>a>- vvv
he, dv p,r) dacf>6repoi cf>iXcoaiv, ovoerepos <f>iAos.
KtvSweuet, Ovk dpa earl <f>iXov rep <j>iXovv-
e<f>rj.
ri ovoev fir) ovk dvri<f>iXovv. Ovk eoiKev. Ot)S'

dpa cf>iXnnTOi elaiv ovs dv ol ittttoi p.r) dvri(f>iXcoatv ,
ovhe (f)iX6prvyes, oi>8' av <f>iXoKvves ye Kal (f>CXoivoi
Kal (f)tXoyvfivaaral Kal t/>iX6ao(j>oi, dv fir/ r/ ao<f>La
aiirovs dvri<f>iXfj. rj <f>iXovai p,ev ravra eKaaroi,
E ov [livroi <j>iXa ovra, dXXa ifiev8e9 6 noirjrrjs, Ss
tyr)
oXBios, co re cjtiXoi Kal ficovvx^s Ittttoi
TTdioes
Kal Kvves dypevral Kal evos dXXooanos ;
Ovk euoiye So/cei, rj 8' oj. 'AAA aXrjdrj So/cei

Xeyeiv aot; Nat. To (f>iXovp.evov dpa rco <f>i-
Xovvri <f>iXov
iariv, cbs eoiKev, a> Meveeve, idv re
<j>iXfj idv re Kal fiiofj- otov /cat to vecoari yeyovora
213 7rat8t'a, rd fiev ovSerrco cfuXovvra, ra 8e /cat yut-
1
ol /j.t>> Heindorf : oU/acvol mss.
36
LYSIS
favourites : they love them with all their might,
yet they feel either that they are not loved in return,
or that they are actually hated. Or do you not
think this is true ? Very true, he replied. Now
in such a case, I went on, the one loves and the
other is loved ? Yes. Which of the two, then, is
a friend of the other ? Is the loving a friend of the
loved, whether in fact he is loved in return or is
even hated, or is the loved a friend of the loving ?
Or again, is neither of them in such a case friend of
the other, if both do not love mutually ? At any
rate, he said, it looks as if this were so. So you
see, we now hold a different view from what we
held before. At first we said that if one of them
loved, both were friends : but now, if both do not
love, neither is a friend. It looks like it, he said. So
there is no such thing as a friend for the lover who
is not loved in return. Apparently not. And so
we find no horse-lovers where the horses do not
love in return, no quail-lovers, dog-lovers, wine-
lovers, or sport-lovers on such terms, nor any lovers of
wisdom if she returns not their love. Or does each
person love these things, while yet failing to make
friends of them, and was it a lying poet who said
Happy to have your children as friends, and your trampling

horses,
Scent-snuffing hounds, and a host when you travel
*
abroad ?
I do not think so, he said. But do you think he

spoke the truth ? Yes. Then the loved object is
a friend to the lover, it would seem, Menexenus,
alike whether it loves or hates : for instance, new
born children, who have either not begun to love,
1
Solon, 21. 2.
37
PLATO
aovvra, orav KoXdfyjrai wo rrjs prfrpos rj vtto rov
TTCLTpOS, OflCOS Kal fjLUJOVVTO. V KlV(t) Tip yfiOVUi
ndvrojv pidXiord ion rols yovevot tptXrara.
"Eîot-
ye SoksI, e<f>r), ovrws ext,/ Ovk dpa 6 <f>i\cbv
<f>lXos
K rovrov rov Xoyov, dAA' 6 (f>iXovfieuos' .
"Eot/cev. Kat 6 p,iaovp,evos dpa, dAA*
exOpos
ov% 6 p,ioa>v. Qatverai. IIoAAoi dpa vtto rutv
exdpdiv (piXovvrai, vtto oe tu>v cplXcov pioovvrac ,
Kal rots p.ev exSpols </>lXoi elai, rots Se (piXocs
B ixdpoi, el to <f>iXovp,evov <f>lXov arlv dXXd fx-rj
to <f>iXovv. Kalroi ttoXXt) dXoyia, <x) <f>lXe eraZpe,
/xaAAov Se, olpai, Kal dhvvarov, ru> re <f>lXa> ex^pov
Kal rat ex^pat <f>iXov elvai. 'AXrjOrj, e<f>rj, eoiKas
Xeyeiv, a> HaiKpares Ovkow el rovr' dSwarov,
to (jtiXow av elr] <f>lXov rov (jtiXovpevov . Oaiverai.
To piaovv dpa rrdXiv exdpov rov pioovp,evov .
'AvdyKTj. Ovkow ravrd rjp.lv avp.^r]aerai avay-
C Katov elvai 6p,oXoyeiv, drrep em ratv -rrporepov ,
rroXXaKis <piXov elvai p,r) <f>iXov, rroXXaKis oe koli
ex^pov, orav rj p,r) (ftiXovv rig <ftiXfj r) Kal p.iooijv
<jtiXfj' TroXXaKis o' ex^pov elvai pvrj ix@pov r) Kal
<f>lXov, orav rj p,7J p,iaovv ris P-<-<rf} ?} *" (piXovv
KivSvvevei, e<ftr). Ti ovv
hi)
piofj. ^prjoto/xcâ,
p,rjre ol (ftiXovvres <f>iXoi eoovrai
~r)v
el
8'
eyw,
p-rfre ol (piXovvres re Kal cf>i-
ol
pryre <ftiXovp,evoi
Xovp,evoi, dXXd Kal irapa ravra dXXovs rivas exi
<j>rjoop,ev elvai <f>lXovs dAAÂoi? yiyvop.evovs Oi5
;
In this argument Socrates makes play, like one of' the

1
"eristic" sophists, with the ambiguous meaning of tpl\os

friend " or " dear
" or " hateful
and exSpos enemy ").
("
("
")
Beneath his immediate purpose of puzzling the young man

lies the intention of pointing out the obscurity of the very
terms " friend " and " enemy."
38
LYSIS
or already hate, if punished by their mother or their
father, are yet at that very moment, and in spite of
their hate, especially and pre-eminently friends to
their parents. I think, he said, that is the case.
Then this argument shows that it is not the lover
who is a friend, but the loved. Apparently. And
it is the hated who is an enemy, not the hater.
Evidently. Then people must often be loved by
their enemies, and hated by their friends, and be
friends to their enemies and enemies to their friends,
if the loved object is a friend rather than the loving
agent. And yet it is a gross absurdity, my dear
friend I should say rather, an impossibility
that one should be an enemy to one's friend and a
friend to one's enemy. You appear to be right
there, Socrates, he said. Then if that is impossible,
it is the loving that must be a friend of the loved.
Evidently. And so the hating, on the other hand,
will be an enemy of the hated. Necessarily. Hence
in the end we shall find ourselves compelled to agree
to the same statement as we made before, that
frequently a man is a friend of one who is no friend,

and frequently even of an enemy, when he loves one
\ who loves not, or even hates ; while frequently a
man may be an enemy of one who is no enemy or
even a friend, when he hates one who hates not,
or even loves.1 It looks like it, he said. What then
are we to make of it, I asked, if neither the loving
are to be friends, nor the loved, nor both the loving
and loved together ? 2 For apart from these, are
there any others left for us to cite as becoming
friends to one another ? For my part, Socrates,
2
Socrates cannot be said to have disposed of this third
proposition.
39
PLATO
ju.a tov At'a, <f>7], J> HwKpares, ov irdvv eviropui

eyoj, a> M.eveeve, to
rjv
rApa
8'
D eycoye. /xrj,
napditav ovk opdais i^r]TOvp,ev Ovk e/xoiye So/cet,
;
/cat a/xa zIttojv
c5
eîj, Sctj/cpares, o Aucns.
7]pv9piaaev eSd/cet yap |U.oi aKrovr' auTW K<f>ev-
yew to Aeâev 8td to a<j>68pa npoaexeiv tov vovv
ijv
rots ore
8'
XeyofievoLs' SijAos /<ai ij/cpoaVo
OUTCOS' %0)V.
Eya> ow /3ovX6p,evos tov t Meveêvov dvanav-
crai Krai e/ceivou rjadeis Trj <f>iXoo~o<f>iq, ovtco p,T<x-
(laXcbv Trpos tov Avow iiroiovp.rjv tovs Xoyovsj
Kal etnov tO Aval, So/cei? Xeyeiv d-rt
E
dXr)6rj p,oi>
ei opdws 'fjp.els Okottov/j.v, ovk dv ttotc ovtojs
eTrXav(x)p,eda. dWd to.vtt\ p,ev p,r]KeTi toj/xev
Kal yap xaê77"lj Tt's M01 peuverai too-ntp 686s
-q
OKeifjis' 8e eTpdnrj/jLev, SoKei /xoi xpfjvai levai,
fi
214 okottovvto} /cara tovs TronjTaV oStoi yap 17/x.iv

oucrTrep TraTepes ttjs oo<f)ias elol Kal -qyefioves.
Xeyovot Se 8-qirov ov <f>avXa)s diro(f>aiv6p,evoi Trepl
T(hv <f>iXa)v, 01 Tvyxdvovcnv ovTes' dXXa tov deov
avrov <f>aot. Ttoieiv <f>iXovs avrovs, ayovTa Trap*
aAAÂou?. Xeyovoi Se ttcjs Tavra, d>s iycp/xai,
aiSi-
aiei toi tov op,oiov dyei Oeos ojs tov op.oiov
Kac Troiet yvwpip.ov ovk evTTVXi)Kag tovtols

B
rj
tois eireaiv; "Eyaye, e<j)7). Ovkovv Kal tols

tojv crot/jtoTaTOJV ovyypdp,p,aoiv
ivTeTV)(r]Kas TavTa
aura Xeyovow, on to 0fJ.01.0v t<3 op,oua avdyKri
aei cf>lXov etvai; elol Se ttov ovtoi ol nepl <f>vaeu>s
to. post seel. Heindorf.

1
tTKoirovvTa.
4.0
LYSIS
he said, I declare Ican see no sort of shift. Can it
be, Menexenus, I asked, that all through there has
been something wrong with our inquiry ? I
think
there has, Socrates, said Lysis, and blushed as soon
as he said it ; for it struck me that the words escaped
him unintentionally, through his closely applying
his mind to our talk as he had noticeably done all
the time he was listening.
So then, as I wanted to give Menexenus a rest,
and was delighted with the other's taste for philo
sophy, I took occasion to shift the discussion over
to Lysis, and said : Lysis, I think your remark is
true, that if we were inquiring correctly we could
never have gone so sadly astray. Well, let us follow
our present line no further, since our inquiry looks to
me a rather hard sort of path : I think we had best
make for the point where we turned off, and be
guided by the poets for they are our fathers, as
;
it were, and conductors in wisdom. They, of course,
express themselves in no mean sort on the subject
of friends, where they happen to be found ; even
saying that God himself makes them friends by
drawing them to each other. The way they put it,
I believe, is something like this :
Yea, ever like and like together God doth draw,1
and so brings them acquainted ; or have you not

come across these verses ? Yes, I have, he replied.
And you have also come across those writings of
eminent sages, which tell us this very thing
that like must needs be always friend to like ? I
refer, of course, to those who debate or write about
1
Homer, Od. xvii. 218.
41
PLATO
re /cat rod oXov oiaXeyop.evoi /cat ypa<j>ovres -
rjv
rAp' ofiv, ev
8'
'AXyjOij, e(f>r], Xeyeis. eyw,
tit ttr t
Ateyovaiv; **tlaw?, o>
to
%
laws,
/
917. rjv o eyw,
r)iJ.io-v avrov, laws oe Kal tt&v, dXX r]p.els ov avv-
iep.ev. yap 7jp.1v o ye rrovrjpos rw novqpai,
8o/cei
oaw dv eyyvrepw Trpoalj] /cat p,aXXov 6p,iXfj, ro-
G
aovrw e)(8lwv ylyveadai. aSt/cet yap- dSiKovvras

oe Kal aoiKovp-evovs dSvvarov irov (plXovs etvai.
ovrws;
Nat, Tavrrj p,ev dv roivvv
8'
os.
rj
ox>x
rod Xeyop.evov ro qp.iav ovk dXrjdes etr), eiirep ol
TTOV7]pol dXXrjXois op.0101. 'AXrjOrj Xeyeis 'AAAa
fMOL
ookovoi Xeyeiv rovs dyadovs 6p,olovs etvai
dXXrjXois Kal <f>lXovs, rovs oe KaKovs, onep Kal
Xeyerai irepl avrwv, p.r]SeTrore o/jlolovs fJ-rjS
avrovs avrols etvai, dXX' ipnXrjKrovs re Kal
D
daradp-r/rovs' o 8e avro avrai avopoiov eirj /cat

Sid(f>opov, a\oXfj ye rw dXXw op.oi.ov (plXov ye-
rj
voiro- ov Kal arol SoKet ovrws; "Ep.oi.ye, e<prj.
rj
Tovro roivvv alvlrrovrai, ws efiol SoKodaiv,

w eraipe, oi ro op,oiov rw 6p,olw (plXov Xeyovres,
ojs dyados rw dyaOw povos p.6vw <f>iXos,
6
6
Se KaKos ovr' dyaOw ovre KaKw ovhenore els
dXyjdij <f>iXiav epêrai. ovvSoKei 001; l&arevevaev .
"Eô/xev dpa tJSt] rives elcrlv ol <f>lXoi~ yap Xoyos
E
rjp.lv o~qp.alvei on 01 dv waiv dyadot. Haw ye,

e<f>r), SoKet.
Kat eyw- Kalroi hvo~xepalvw ri
8'
ep.01, rp> ye
ev avrw- cf>epe ovv, w npos Aids, iowp.ev ri /cat
VTTOTrrevw. opoios rw 6p.olw KaO' ooov opuoios
6
Kal eon roiovros rw roiovrw;

6
(f>lXos, -^p-qaip-os
42
^
LYSIS
nature and the universe.1 Quite so, he said. Well
now, I went on, are they right in what they say ?
Perhaps, he replied. Perhaps in one half of it, I
said ; perhaps in even the whole ; only we do not
comprehend it. We suppose that the nearer a wicked
man approaches to a wicked man, and the more
he consorts with him, the more hateful he becomes ;
for he injures him, and we consider it impossible
that injurer and injured should be friends. Is it
not so ? Yes, he answered. On this showing,
therefore, half of the saying cannot be true, if the
wicked are like one another. Quite so. What I
believe they mean is that the good are like one
another, and are friends, while the bad as is also
said of them are never like even their own selves,
being so ill-balanced and unsteady ; and when a
thing is unlike itself and variable it can hardly
* become like or friend to anything else. You must
( surely agree to that ? I do, he said. Hence I
i conclude there is a hidden meaning, dear friend,
intended by those who say that like is friend to
like, namely that the good alone is friend to the
good alone, while the bad never enters into true
I friendship with either good or bad. Do you agree ?
He nodded assent. So now we can tell what friends
| are ; since our argument discloses that they are any
| persons who may be good. I quite think so, said he.
And I also, said I ; and yet there is a point in
it that makes me uneasy : so come, in Heaven's
name, let us make out what it is that I suspect.
Is like friend to like in so far as he is like, and is
such an one useful to his fellow ? Let me put it
1
The attraction of like for like was an important force in
the cosmology of Empedocles (c. 475-415 b.c. ).
i 43
PLATO
p,aXXov Se cSSe- otiovv op.oiov otcoovv tLv6p.oiu>
uxfreXeiav eêw t) riva jSAd/Jrjv av noirjaai Svvairo,

o p,rj Kal avro avra>; r) ri dv rradelv, o p,rj Kal
airov irddoi; to. Toiavra av vtt dX-
17
215 vs
XrjXcov dyaTT-qdelrj, p.rj8ep,lav emKOvplav aXX^Xois

eyovra; eoriv ottojs; Uvk ecrrw. U oe pvi)
AAAd
Sr)
ayancvTo, ttcus <f>lXov; OvSap,u>s.
6
p,ev op.oi.os ru) ofioitp ov (j>iXos' Se dyados t<3
6
dyadip Ka6' ooov dyados, ov xad ooov op.oios,
(piAos av euj; Loots. It oe; ov\ ayauos,
o
Kad' oaov dyados, /card tooovtov ikovos av eirj
avrut; Nat. '0 8c ye Itxavos ovSevos 8eop,evos
koto tt/v iKavorrjTa. Utos yap ov; '0 Se p,r]
B
tov 8eop,evos oi5Se ti ayatrayq av. Ov yap oSv.

"0 Se /at) dyaTTtpr], ovh" av cfuXot. Ou Sryra. 'O
Se /at) (fiiXaJv ye ov tf>lXos. Ov <f>aiverai,. Hois
oSv ol dyadol rols dyadois rjp.lv <f>iXot
eoovrai tt)v
dpxrjv, ol pyiyre airovres rrodeivol dXX-qXois
IkovoI
yap eavTots Kal ^wpi? ovres p.r\re Trapovres
Xpeiav avrwv erôvai; roiovrovs tis
St)
roi)s
prixavr) Trepl ttoXXov rroieladai dXXrjXovs; OuSe-
/Ata, ecjyq. O1A01 Se ye ovk av etev /at) irepl ttoXXov
C
noiovp,evoi eavrovs. 'AXr/dfj.

"Ad pel St), cu At?(7i, irfj TrapaKpovop.eda. apa
ye SXoj Tivl iaTraTwp,eda; Ileus St); e<firj. "HSt/
TTOTe' tov rjrxovoa Xeyovros, Kal dpri dvap.ip.vri-
oKop,ai, on to p.ev op.oiov rep op.oi.qj /cat 01
dyadol toIs dyadois TroAe/ttcoTaroi efev Kal
Socrates seems to pass unwarrantably from the limited

1
to the unlimited meaning of " sufficient."
44
LYSIS
another way when anything whatever is like
:
anything else, what benefit can it offer, or what

harm can it do, to its like, which it could not offer
or do to itself ? Or what could be done to it that
could not be done to it by itself ? How can such
things be cherished by each other, when they can
bring no mutual succour ? Is it at all possible ?
No. And how can that be a friend, which is not
cherished ? By no means. But, granting that like
is not friend to like, the good may still be friend
to the good in so far as he is good, not as he is like ?
Perhaps. But again, will not the good, in so far

as he is good, be in that measure sufficient for
himself ? Yes. And the sufficient has no need of
anything, by virtue of his sufficiency.1 Of course;
And if a man has no need of anything he will not
cherish anything. Presumably not. And that
^
'
which does not cherish will not love. I should
think not. And one who loves not is no friend.
I Evidently. So how can we say that the good will
be friends to the good at all, when neither in absence
do they long for one another -for they are sufficient
for themselves even when apart nor in presence

'
have they need of one another ? How can it be
contrived that such persons shall value each other
By no means, he said. And if they do
'
highly ?
I not set a high value on each other, they cannot be
j
friends. True.
Now observe, Lysis, how we are missing the track.
Can it be, indeed, that we are deceived in the whole
matter ? How so ? he asked. Once on a time I
heard somebody say, and I have just recollected it,
that like was most hostile to like, and so were
good men to good men ; and what is more, he
45
PLATO
tov 'HoioSov fidprvpa,
817
kolI eTrrjyero Xeycov
cLs apa
/ecu Kepapevs Kepap,ei Koreei Kai aoi8os aoiSai

Kai ittcoxos TTTCOXV'
kcu rdAAa Trdvra ovrcos dvayKaiov elvai

D
or/ e<f>rj
p.aXioTa to o/xoiorara npos dXXr]Xa <f>96vov re /cat

Kai epnTiTrXaadai, rd dv-
8'
(piXoviKias e^dpas
ofioiorara (piXias. tov ydp nevqra tu> irXovoicp
dvayKaêodai (f>lXov elvai Kai tov dcrdevrj tu> icrû-
pQ> ttjs emKovpias eveKa, /cai tov KafivovTa rco
larpq)- Kai navra tov p.r) eiSora dyanav tov
Srj
elBoTa Kai Kai Kai en Tut
8r)
<f>iXeiv. ene^r/ei
Xoyop fieyaXoTrpeTreaTepov, Xeyayv cos apa ttovtos
Seoi to SfMOiov Tip 6p.oicp elvai, dAA' avro to
<f>iXov
evavriov elr] tovtov to yap evavTicoTarov rep ev-
E
avTHOTdrw elvai /zdAiora <f>LXov. emdvp.eiv yap

tov tolovtov eKaoTov, dAA' ov TOV OflOlOV to fiev
yap r)pdv vypov, to Se i})V)(p6v 8epp.ov, to Se
TTiKpov yAvKeos, to be ogv ap,pAeos, to be Kevov
TrXrjpcbcrecos, Kai to Kevwaecos'
TrXrjpes Kai Se
TCtAAa ovtco Kara tov avTov Xoyov. rpo<f>r)v
yap elvai to evavriov t<3 evavrlop- to yap opioiov
216 tov 6p,oiov ovSev av aTroXavaai. Krai p,evroi, d>
eraipet Kai Kop-tpos eSoKei elvai ravra Xeyojv ev

vp.lv Se, eyu>, 77x0s Sokci Xe-
8'
yap eXeyev.
r)v
yeiv; Et? ye, e<j>r) M.eveevos, ye ovrooai

6
u>s
aKovaai. Ocujuev apa to evavriov tu> evavneo

pdXiara <j>iXov elvai; Haw ye. IZlev, rjv
8'
ovk dXXoKOTOv, Meveijeve; Kai r/puv evOvs

&
eyd>-
dop-evoi eTMTTjorfoovTai oStoi 01 Trdaoo<f>oi avSpes,
Kai epr/aovTai ovk evavricora-
el
01 dvTiXoyiKoi,
46
LYSIS
put forward Hesiod as witness, by quoting his
'
words
See potter wroth with potter, bard with bard,
Beggar with beggar,1
and in all other cases it was the same, he said ;
likest things must needs be filled with envy, con
tention, and hatred against each other, but the
unlikest things with friendship : since the poor
man must needs be friendly to the rich, and the
weak to the strong, for the sake of assistance, and
also the sick man to the doctor ; and every ignorant
person had to cherish the well-informed, and love
him. And then the speaker pursued his theme to
this further and more imposing point that like
could not in the slightest degree be friendly to
like, but was in just the opposite case : for it was
between things most opposed that friendship was
; chiefly to be found, since everything desired its
'
opposite, not its like. Thus dry desired wet, cold
t hot, bitter sweet, sharp blunt, empty fullness, full
emptiness, and likewise the rest on the same principle :
for the opposite was food for its opposite, as the
like could have no enjoyment of its like. And I
'
must say, my good friend, his argument seemed a
smart one, for he expressed it well. But you, I
'
asked how does it strike you ? It sounds all
I right, said Menexenus, at least on the moment's
hearing. Then are we to say that the opposite is
most friendly to its opposite ? Certainly. Well, I
exclaimed, is it not monstrous, Menexenus ? Why,
at once these all-accomplished logic-choppers will
delightedly pounce on us and ask whether hatred
is not the most opposite thing to friendship. And
1
Works and Days, 25.
47
PLATO
B tov eyftpa <îAt'a; ols ri dTTOKpt.vovp.e0a; rj ovk

dvdyKT] SfioXoyeZv on dXrjdrj Xeyovoiv; 'Ajxxy/07.
TAp' ovv, (f>rjoovcn, to e^Qpov tco tf>i,Xcp i)
<j&t'Aov to
tf>LXov tco
\dpu>; 0v8eTepa, ecf>rj. 'AAAa. to
Si'/caiov tco dSt/cai, tj to acocjjpov aKoXaaTcp, rj to
dyaOov tco KaKco; Ovk dv p.01 8o/ct ovtcos eêtv.
rjv
'AAAa /xevToi, ttjv evavTio-
eyco, elirep ye /cara
8'
TTfjrd ti tco tf>LXovl eoriv, dvdyK-q Kal ravTa tf>L\a.
etvai. AvdyK-q. Ovt dpa to op.oiov o/xotaj
ovre to evavTiov tco evavTico tf>iXov. Ovk eot/cev.
"En Se Kal rdSe oKeificop,eOa, p,r) ert p,aXXov 17/xa?
C
XavOdvei to <f>iXov cos aXrjOcos ov8ev tovtcov ov, aAAct

to p,rp-e dyaOov pvqTe kclkov cf>lXov ovrco zroxe
yt.yv6p.evov tov dyadov. Yicos, os, Xeyeis;
8'
l)
'AAAa p,d Aia, rp> eycb, ovk oJSa, dAAd tco ovti
8'
atirds elXiyyito vtto ttjs tov Xoyov drroplas, Kal

Kiv8vvevei /card ttj^ dp%alav Trapoip,iav to kclXov
tfiLXov etvai. eot/ce yovv p,aXaKco tivi Kal Xeico /cat
Xnrapcp- 816 /cat lotos pa8uos 8ioXia0aivei /cat
D
StaSueTat T)p.as, are toiovtov ov. Xeyco yap myo-

66v KaXov etvai- ov ovk oiei; "Eycoye.
8'
Aeycu
Toivvv aTTop.avTev6p.evos, tov koXov re /cat dyadov
<f>lXov etvai
to pvqTe ayaOov p,r\Te KaKov irpos a. 8e
Xeycov p.avTevop,ai, aKovoov. 80/cet p.01 cotnrepel
Tpia arra etyat yevt), to p,ev dyaOov, to 8e /ca/coV,
to o out ayavov ovre KaKov ti oe aot; xVat epcoi,
Kat ovTe TayaOov TayaOcp ovre to KaKov tco
E
ecf>rj.
Cornarius t$
1
re? <j>i\ov tpi\(f> <pi\ov, t< <f>L\ov <pi\ov mss.

:
The proverb, of course, used in the sense of " dear."

1
iplXov
48
LYSIS
what answer shall we give them ? Shall we not be
forced to admit that what they say is true ? We
shall. So then, they will demand, is a hating thing
friend to the friendly thing, or the friendly to the
hating ? Neither, he replied. But is the just a
friend to the unjust, or the temperate to the
profligate, or the good to the bad ? I do not think
that could be so. But yet, I urged, if one thing is
friend to another on this principle of opposition,
these things too must needs be friends. They
must. So neither is like friend to like, nor opposite
friend to opposite. It seems not.
But there is still this point to consider ; for perhaps
we are yet more mistaken, and the friendly has really
nothing to do with all this : it may rather be some
thing neither good nor bad that will prove after all
to be what we call friend of the good. How do you
mean ? he asked. For the life of me, I said, I
cannot tell : the fact is, I am quite dizzy myself
with the puzzle of our argument, and am inclined
to agree with the ancient proverb that the beautiful
is friendly.1 It certainly resembles something soft
and smooth and sleek ; that is why, I daresay, it so
easily slides and dives right into us, by virtue of
those qualities. For I declare that the good is
beautiful : do you not agree ? I do. Then I will
be a diviner for once, and state that what is neither
good nor bad is friendly to what is beautiful and
good ; and what it is that prompts me to this
divination, you must now hear. My view is that
there are three separate kinds, as it were the good,
the bad, and what is neither good nor bad ; and
what is yours ? Mine is the same, he replied. And
that neither is the good friendly to the good, nor
vol.. v e 49
PLATO
Ka.Ka> ovts rayaOov ru> KaKcp <f>lXov

elvai, wairep
ovo' 6 ep.irpoadev Xoyos eor XelneTai 8-q, elnep rip ti
eon <f>[Xov, to pryre dyadov prqre KaKov tftlXov elvai
fj tov ayadov rj tov toiovtov olov avTO eoTiv. ov
yap dv ttov tu> KaKut <f>lXov dv ti yevoiTO. 'AXr/Oyj.
0v8e prjv to opoiov tu> opoloj e<j>ap.ev dpTf tj
yap; Nai. Ovk apa ecrrai tu> pr/Te ayadcp pi-qTe
KaKut to toiovtov </>lXov
otov avTO. Ov <f>aiveTa.i.
Tai dyada> apa to pf]Te dyadov pryre KaKov p.6va>
217 povov ovpfialvet, yiyveadai (f>lXov. AvayKr], a>?
COlKV.
Ap ow Kai KaAcos,
eyw, co Traioes, v<p-
rp> o
rjyeiTai rjplv to vvv Xeyopevov ; el yovv d4.Xoifj.ev
evvoijoai to vyialvov owpa, ovSev laTpiKrjs Setxat
ovo' w<j>eXlas' Ikovws yap eêi, tSore vyiaivcov
ovoels larpw <f>lXos Sia ttjv vyieiav. ij yap;
Oioeis. 'AAA' 6 Kapvwv, otp,ai, Sia. ttjv voaov.
Hu>s yap ov;
8rj
Noao? pev tcaxov, larpiicr) 8e

w<f>eXtpov Kal dyadov. Nai. ZcD/na 8e ye ttov
Kara to owpa ewai ovt ayadov ovTe KaKov.
AvayKat,eTat, oe ye owpa Sid voaov la-
'
Outo)?.
B
TpiKTjv aonaêadai /cat <j)iXeiv. Ao/cei pot. To

prjTe KaKov dpa prfr ayadov <f>lXov yiyverai tov
dyadov Sid. KaKov Trapovoiav. "Eoi/cev. ArjAov
Se ye on, irplv yeveodai avro KaKov viro tov KaKov
ofi exl- ov Y-P Ye Kal<ov yeyovos Iti dv ti1
^V
tov ayadov emdvpol Kal (jtiXov elrj- dovvaTov yap

e<f>apev KaKov dyad at <f>lXov elvai. 'ASvvaTov yap.
C
TiKeipaode o Xeyw. Xeyw yap oti evia pev, otov

S17
n C. Schmidt &vr\ mss.

1
&v
:
50
LYSIS
the bad to the bad, nor the good to the bad ; so
much our previous argument already forbids. One
view then remains : if anything is friendly to any
thing, that which is neither good nor bad is friendly
to either the good or what is of the same quality
as itself. For I presume nothing could be found
friendly to the bad. True. Nor, however, can like
be friendly to like : this we stated just now, did
we not ? Yes. So what is neither good nor bad
can have no friendship with the same sort of thing
as itself. Apparently not. Then only what is
neither good nor bad proves to be friendly to the
good, and to that only. That must be so, it seems.
Then can we rely further on this present state
ment, my boys, I said, as a sure guide ? For
instance, we have only to consider a body in health
to see that it has no need of doctoring or assistance :
lit is well enough as it is, and so no one in health

is friend to a doctor, on account of his health. You
agree? Yes. But the sick man is, I imagine, on
account of his disease. Certainly. Now disease is
a bad thing, and medicine is beneficial and good.
Yes. And a body, of course, taken as body, is
neither good nor bad. That is so. But a body is
compelled by disease to welcome and love medicine.
I think so. Thus what is neither bad nor good
; becomes a friend of the good because of the presence
of evil. So it seems. But clearly this must be

before it is itself made evil by the evil which it has ;
for surely, when once it has been made evil, it can
no longer have any desire or love for the good ;
since we agreed it was impossible for bad to be a
friend of good. Yes, impossible. Now observe
what I say. Some things are of the same sort as
51
PLATO
av fj to rrapov, roiavrd eari Kal avrd, eVia Se ov.

uMJirep el edeXoi ns xp(i)p.ari tu> otiovv d\ei-
ifiai, rrdpeari ttov ra> dXei(f>devTL to eTTaXei<f>94v.
Ildvv ye. TAp' oSv /cat eon Tore tolovtov tt)v
Xpoav to dXei^dev,1 olov to emov*; Ov p,avdavco, rj
D ' os. 'AAA' coSe, tjv 8' eyw. et tLs aov avdas
ovaras ras r/3i%as' ijii,p,v9ia) dXeiifieie, irorepov Tore
3
evKai eiev rj (pawowr av; <voivoi,vt av,

r) o os.
Kai p,rjv irapebt) y av avrals XevKorrjs. Nat.
'AAA' op.ws ovSev Tt pbaXXov av elev XevKai ttoj, aAAd
rrapovo-qs XevKOTrjros ovre tl XevKal ovre p,eXa.ivai
elaiv. 'AXrjdfj. 'AAA' orav 8tf, w (filXe, to yrjpas
avrats rairov tovto xpo~)p,a errayayr], Tore eyevovro
E otovnep to Trapov, XevKov rtapovaia XevKai. Tlots
yap ov; Tovto toLvvv eputrco vvv Sr/, el a) av ti
rrapfj, toiovtov earai to e;\w olov to Trapov rj iav
p,ev Kara riva rporrov Trapfj, earai, edv he p,r), ov;
vrco p,aAAov, ecprj. Hat to p,rjre KaKov apa fJ.rjr
dyadov eviore Kaxov rrapovros ovrru> KaKov eo-rw,
eon S' ore rjSr] to toiovtov yeyovev. ITavu ye.
Ovkovv orav KaKov fj KaKov rrapovros, auri)
pvtyno>
p,ev r) rrapovaia dyadov avro rroieZ eTndvp,euv r) Se
KaKov rroiovaa d-noarepei avro rijs re imdvixCas
d/xa Kal ttjs (f)i,Xlas rod dyadov. oil yap en earlv
218 ovre /ca/cdv ovre dyadov, dXXd Kaxov fylXov Se
dyadu) KaKov1 ovk r)v. Ov yap ovv. Atd ravra
<f>aip.ev av Kal rovs
8f]
17877 aotfrovs p,r)Keri <f>iAo-
aXeupBiv Heindorf: e7raX00ê mss.

1
iiribv Heindorf fri 6v mss.

2
t6tc Heindorf: ttotc mss.

8
aya.8$ KaKbv Heindorf: i.yaS&v kuki} T: ayaBbv Bt.

*
KaK<p
52
LYSIS
those that are present with them, and some are
not. For example, if you chose to dye something
a certain colour, the substance of the dye is present,
I presume, with the thing dyed. Certainly. Then
is the thing dyed of the same sort, in point of colour,
as the substance that is added ? I do not under
stand, he said. Well, try it this way, I went on :
suppose some one tinged your golden locks with
white lead, would they then be or appear to be
white ? Yes, they would so appear, he replied.
And, in fact, whiteness would be present with
them ? Yes. But all the same they would not
be any the more white as yet ; for though whiteness
be present, they are not at all white, any more
than they are at all black. True. But when, my
dear boy, old age has cast that same colour upon
them, they have then come to be of the same
sort as that which is present white through
presence of white. To be sure. So this is the
question I have been trying to put to you whether
a thing that has something present with it is to be
held of the same sort as that present thing ; or
is it only when that thing is present in a particular
way, but otherwise not ? More likely the latter,
he said. So that what is neither bad nor good is
sometimes, when bad is present, not bad as yet,
and such cases have been known to occur. Certainly.
When therefore it is not bad as yet, though bad is
present, this presence makes it desire good ; but
the presence which makes it bad deprives it equally
of its desire and its love for the good. For it is no
longer neither bad nor good, but bad ; and we found
that bad was no friend to good. No, indeed. And
consequently we may say that those who are already
53
PLATO
0eol e'ire dvOpanroi elaiv ovroi' ovo' av

ao(f>eiv, e'ire
eKeivovs <f>iXoao<f>etv rovs ovtcos dyvoiav exovras
ware kclkovs eiraf ko.k6v yap Kal dfiadrj ovoeva
ol eôvreg fjiev ro kclkov
Srj
<f>iXooo<f>eiv . Xeiirovrai
rovro, rr\v dyvoiav, pvrynui Se vtt' avrov ovres dyvoi-
fioves [irjoe dfiadels, dXX' en r]yovp,evoi p.r) eiSevai a
pr) laaai. Kai <f>t,Xoao<f>ovoiv ol ovre dyadol
Srj
Sid
B
ovre KaKoiTra) ovres' oaoi Se KaKoi, ov <f)iXooo<f>ovaiv
,
ovoe ol dyadol' ovre. yap ro evavriov rov evavriov
ovre ro ofioiov rov dfiolov ilXov rjfuv icf>dvr) ev rois
epnrpoaOev Xoyois. ov (iep,vr]o9e IldVu ye,
;
?}
Nw dpa, eyw, w Aval re ko.1

rjv
8'
ec/)drr]v.
Meveeve, iravros fiaXXov e^rjvp-qKafjiev ecrri to
8
(j>lXov Kal ov. (j>ap,ev yap avro, Kai Kara rrjv
<pvXVv Ka' Kara ro aw\xa Kal iravraxov, to fj,rjre
C
KaKov [L-ryre dyadov Sid KaKov irapovalav rov dya

dov <j>lXov elvai. Havrdiraoiv e<f)drrjv re Kal
avvex<*>peirr)v ovrto rovr eêiv.
Kai
8rj
Krai avros eyw ndvv ejâipov, ajcnrep

Oy]pevrrjS ris, eâ>v dyanrjrws o e0r)pev6fj,r]v .
Karreir ovk 018' OTrodev p.01 droTrwrdrr/ ris inroifjia
elafjXdev, (lis ovk dXyjOrj eirj ra wfioXoyrjiMeva rj/Xiv
Kal dxdeaOels elirov Bapai, w Aval re Kal
evOiis
Meveêve, Kiv8vvevop,ev ovap rreTrXovrrjKevai.
D Tt fidXiara; e<f>r] Mevegevos.
6
eydi, fir] warrep dvdpoinois dXa-

S'
tfv
0oj8o>ju.ai,
t,6ai Xoyois rial roiovrois [if/evoeaiv]1 evrervyr\-
Kap.ev Trepl rov <f>iXov.
Ilaj? 8-q; e<f>rj.
seel. Heindorf.
1
\j/evSiaiv
54
LYSIS
wise no longer love wisdom, whether they be gods
or men ; nor again can those be lovers of wisdom
who are in such ignorance as to be bad : for we
know that a bad and stupid man is no lover of wisdom.
And now there remain those who, while possessing
this bad thing, ignorance, are not yet made ignorant
or stupid, but are still aware of not knowing the
things they do not know. It follows, then, that
those who are as yet neither good nor bad are lovers
of wisdom, while all who are bad, and all the good,
are not : for, as we found in our previous discussion,
neither is opposite friend to opposite, nor like to
like. You remember, do you not ? To be sure we
do, they both replied. So now, Lysis and Mene-
xenus, I said, we can count on having discovered
what is the friendly and what is not. For we say
that, in the soul and the body and everywhere,
just that which is neither bad nor good, but has
the presence of bad, is thereby friend of the good.
To this statement they said that they entirely
agreed.
And, beyond that, I was myself filled with delight,
like a hunter, at the satisfaction of getting hold of
what I was hunting ; when somehow or other a most
unaccountable suspicion came over me that the
conclusion to which we had agreed was not true.
So at once I exclaimed in vexation : Alack-a-day,
Lysis and Menexenus ! I fear our new-gotten
riches are all a dream.
How on earth is that ? said Menexenus.
I am afraid, I replied, that in our search for
friendship we have struck up with arguments that
are no better than a set of braggarts.
How so ? he asked.
55
PLATO
ilSe, tjv 8' yd>, OKOira>p,ev (f>lXos os av eif],
TTorepov earl ov; 'AvdyKT], e<f>rj.
<f>lXos r)
Uorepov ovv ovSevos eveKa Kal 8t' ovSev, 7} eveKa
rov Kal Sid Tt; "EveKa rov koi 81a ti. Uorepov
(j>lXov ovros eKelvov rov irpa.yp.aros, ov eveKa (JjIXos
o cf>lXos ra> <f>lXw, f/ ovre ovre ex^pov; Ov <f>lXov
E Trow, e<f>rj, erropiai. Ei/cotojs' ye, eydf aAA'
rjv
8'
d>Se locos aKoXovdrjoeis olp,ai oe /cat eyoo p,S.XXov
,
ti rov
S17
etao/xat o Xeya>. Kap.voov, vvv eâp.ev,1
6
larpov <ftiXos' Nat.
ot>x Ovkovv ovrcas; Sid
voaov eveKa iyielas rov larpov <f>lXos; Nat. 'H
ye voaos KaKov; lla>s o ov; It oe uyieia,-
e
ovoerepa; 'AyaOov ,
fy
8'
eyco- ayadov KaKov

>}
219 EAeyo/xev dpa, a>s eoiKev, on ro aa>p.a,

8
C91J-
ovre ayaOov ovre KaKov <ov>,2 8ta rrjv voaov, rovro
8e 81a. to KaKov, rr\s larpiKrjs <f>lXov iarlv ayadov
8e larpucq- eveKa he rfjs iyielas T17V (fnXlav
r)
larpiKTj dvfjprjrar oe iyleia ayaOov. tfydp; Nat.
17
QlXov 8e ov <f>lXov vyleia; <S>lXov. 'H Se

rj
77
voaos e^dpov. Ylavv ye. To ovre KaKov ovre

aya#oV dpa 8td to KaKov Kal ro iÔpov rov ayadov
B
<f)lXov iarlv eveKa rov ayadov Kal <j>lXov. Qalverai.

"Evck' dpa rov <f>lXov <rov <j>lXov>3 ro (f>lXov </)lXov
81a ro ex&pov. "KoiKev.
lev, rjv eireiorj evravva T)Kop.ev, <x>
eyw.
o
rraioes, rrpoaaxoop-ev rov vovv /lit) iâTrarrjdtop.ev .

on p.ev yap <f>lXov rov <f>iXov ro <f>iXov yeyovev, ecu
Heindorf ipa/iiv mss.
1
l<f>ay.ev
:
6v add. Heindorf.
2
tou add. Burnet .post ri (f>l\ov add. Hermann.

*
<pl\ov
:
56
LYSIS
Just consider a moment, I said. When a man is
a friend, is he friend to some one or not ? He needs
must be, he replied. Then is he so for the sake of
nothing and because of nothing, or for the sake of
something and because of something ? For the
sake of something, and because of something. Is

it a friend that thing for whose sake he is a friend
to his friend or is it neither friend nor foe ? I do
not quite follow, he said. Naturally enough, said I ;
but perhaps you will keep up if we try it another way,
and I expect that I too will better understand what
I am saying. The sick man, we said just now, is a
friend to the doctor ; is not that so ? Yes. Then
is it because of disease, for the sake of health, that
he is a friend of the doctor ? Yes. And disease is
a bad thing ? Of course. But what is health ?
I asked : a good thing, or a bad, or neither ? A
good thing, he said. And we were saying, I believe,
that the body, being neither good nor bad, was a
friend of medicine that is, of a good thing because
of disease that is, because of a bad thing ; and it
is for the sake of health that medicine has acquired
this friendship, and health is a good thing. You
agree ? Yes. Is health a friend or not ? A friend.
And disease is a foe ? Certainly. So what is
neither bad nor good is a friend to the good because
of what is bad and a foe for the sake of what is
good and a friend. Apparently. Hence the friend
is a friend of its friend for the sake of its friend and
because of its foe. So it seems.
Very well, I said : since we have reached this
point, my boys, let us take good heed not to be
deceived. I pass over without remark the fact
that the friend has become a friend to the friend,
57
PLATO
Xaupew, /cat tov ofioiov ye to ofioiov <f>lXov yiyverat,

o e<f>ap,ev dovvaTov elvar dXX' op,a>s r68e OKeijjoj-
C p.eda, fir/ r/fids eijaTTaTrjarj to vvv Xeyop,evov . 17
IcLTpiKrj, <f>afiev, eveKa Trjs vyielas </>lXov. Nat.

Ovkovv Kal 77 vyleia <j)iXov; Haw ye. Et dpa
<j>lXov, eveKa tov. Nat. <f>iXov twos S77,
ye
enrep aKoXovd-qaei tt} vpooOev 6p,oXoyla. YIdvv
ye. Ovkovv Kal eKelvo <f>lXov
av eorai eveKa
<f>iXov; Nat. fAp' oSv ovk
dvdyKr/ airenreZv
77/na?ovtcos lovras, f] a<j>iKea6ai e-ni Tiva ap^rfv,
r] ovKeT eTravoiaei eir aAAo (piAov, aAA rjget. e-n

eKelvo o eon irpa>Tov <j>LXov, ov eveKa Kal to. dXXa
D (f>ap.ev 77aWa cf>lXa elvai; 'AvdyKrj. Tovro 877
eoriv o Xeyio, p.rj rjp.as to. dXXa navra a einofiev
eKeivov eveKa <f>LXa
elvai, wonep elSioXa arra ovra
avrov, iânaTa, 77 8 eKelvo to Trp&rov, o <lis aXrjOaJs
earl <f>lXov. ewor\au>p,ev ydp ovrcoai- OTav1 tIs ti
neplttoXXov TrocfJTai, olovirep evloTe TraTTjp vlov ovtI
TravTOtv tow dXXwv xpr]p.aTcov npoTip.a, 6 tolov-
877
tos eveKa tov tov vlov nepi TtavTOS r/yela9ai apa

Kal dXXo Tt av irepl ttoXXov ttoloIto; olov alaOd-
el
E
voito avTov Kwveiov Tre-rroiKOTa, apa irepi ttoXXov

ttoioIt' av otvov, elnep tovto r/yolTO tov vlov
adiaeuv; Ti pvf\v; e<f>r). Ovkovv Kal to dyyelov,
otvos eVei'77; Hdvv ye. TAp' ovv totc
<L
ev
6
oioev nepl TrXelovos TTOteiTat, KvXiKa Kepap,eav

77
tov vlov tov avrov, ovSe Tpels KOTvXas olvov tov

77
&rav Stephanas &v mss.

1
&
:
58
LYSIS
and thus the like becomes a friend to the like,
which we said was impossible. There is, however,
a further point which we must examine, if we are
not to find our present argument a mere deception.
Medicine, we say, is a friend for the sake of health.
Yes. Then is health a friend also ? Certainly. And
if it is a friend, it is so for the sake of something.
Yes. And that something is a friend, if it is to
conform to our previous agreement. Quite so.
Then will that something be, on its part also, a
friend for the sake of a friend ? Yes. Now are
we not bound to weary ourselves with going on in
this way, unless we can arrive at some first
principle which will not keep leading us on from
one friend to another, but will reach the
one original friend, for whose sake all the other
things can be said to be friends ? We must. So
you see what I am afraid of that all the other
things, which we cited as friends for the sake of
that one thing, may be deceiving us like so many
phantoms of it, while that original thing may be the
veritable friend. For suppose we view the matter
thus : when a man highly values a thing, as in the
common case of a father who prizes his son above
all his possessions, will such a man, for the sake of
placing his son before everything, value anything
else highly at the same time ? For instance, on
learning that he had drunk some hemlock, would
he value wine highly if he believed it would save
his son's life ? Why, of course, he said. And the
vessel too which contained the wine ? Certainly.
Now does he make no distinction in value, at that
moment, between a cup of earthenware and his
own son, or between three pints of wine and his
59
PLATO
viov; r) cSSe ttojs e'x6'' ""Sera r/ toiclvtt) 0*77011877 ovk
enl tovtois earlv ioTTovSaofxevr), em tois eveKa rov
napaoKevaiClop.evoi,s, dAA err eKeivoj, ov eveKa navra
220 to. roiaCramxpaaKevdêTat. ovx otl rroXXaKis
Xeyofxev, (bs Trepl ttoXXov Troiovp,eda xpvcriov k <*M' ^KeXvo ecrnv o Trepl navTos ttolov-
[ie6a, o dv (jxivfj ov, drov eveKa /cai %pvoiov Krai
Trdvra to TtapaaKeva'Cpp.eva napa.aKevdtêra.i. dp
ovtcos ; Udvv ye.
<f>rjOop.ev Ovkovv Kau irepi rov
<f>iXov
6 avros Xoyos; oaa ydp (fra/Aev <f>lXa ewai rjfilv
B eveKa <j>LXov twos eTepov,1 pi] /J,aTi âivo/xeda Xeyovres
avro' <f>CXov 8e tw ovtc Kw8vvevei eKelvo avro etvai,
els o Traaai a*5rai at Xeyopêvai 0iAi'ai TeXevTCoaw .
KivSvvevei ovtcos, e<fyq, exew. Ovkovv to ye tw
ovti <f>lXov ov <f>lXov twos eveKa <f>LXov ioTiv; 'AX-qdrj.
Tovro aTrrjXXaKTai, [Mr) (f>iXov twos eveKa
8i)
[j,ev
to <f>lXov cfilXov etvaf dAA' apa to dyadov eoTc <f>i-
Xov; "Eîoiye 8oKel. TA/>' ovv Sid to KaKov to
dyadov <f>iXeiTai, Kal eêi cSSe- ei Tpicov ovtojv cov
C
vvv Kal KaKov Kal ivfyre ayaBov

8r)
eXeyop,ev, dyaOov
/X.7JT6 KaKov, rd 8vo Xei<j>8elr), to 8e KaKov eKTroScbv
djreXdot. Kal p,rj8evds e<f>diTTOi,TO p,ryre ocoLiaTOS
fJ.r/T
tcov a aura KaO* avTa
8r)
*fiv)(rjs pvryre dXXa>v, <f>ap,ev

oxne KaKa etvai out' dya0d, dpa Tore ov8ev dv rj/xlv
Xprjoip.ov elrj to dyaOov, dXX dxprjoTOV dv yeyovds
eirj; ei yap ixrjdev r)pas en pAaTTTOi, ovoev av
oi8ep,ias axêAi'aj 8eolp,eda, Kai ovtco dv tot
817
D
crtpov Hermann ertpip mss.

1
.
Socrates here strangely confuses the cause (t6 Std tl)

1
with the object in view (rd Si/ck& tou), which he carefully

distinguished in the case of medicine (219 a).
60
LYSIS
son ? Or may we perhaps state it thus : all such
concern is not entertained for the actual things
which are applied for the sake of something, but
for that something for whose sake all the rest are
applied ? I know that we often talk of setting
great value on gold and silver : but surely we are
no nearer the truth of the matter for that ; what we
rather value above everything is the thing whatever
it may prove to be for whose sake gold and all
the other commodities are applied. May we state
it so ? By all means. Then shall we not give the
same account of a friend ? In speaking of all the
things that are friends to us for the sake of some
other friend, we find ourselves uttering a mere
" "
phrase ; whereas in reality friend appears to be
simply and solely the thing in which all these so-
called friendships terminate. So it appears, he
said. Then the real friend is a friend for the sake
of nothing else that is a friend ? True.
So we have got rid of this, and it is not for the
sake of some friendly thing that the friend is friendly.
But now, is the good a friend ? I should say so.
And further, it is because of the bad that the good
is loved x ; let me state the case as follows : there
are three things of which we have just been speaking
good, bad, and what is neither good nor bad. If

but two of these remained after evil had been cleared
away, so that it had no contact with anything,
whether body or soul or any of the other things
that we count neither bad nor good in themselves,
would the result be that good would be of no use
to us, but would have become quite a useless thing ?
For if there were nothing left to harm us, we should
feel no want of any assistance ; and thus we should
61
PLATO
yevono KardSrjXov on Sid to ko.k6v rdyaOov r)yaTTto -
fX.V KO.I i<f>l\oVfJLV , d)S {fxip/jLCLKOV OV TOV KCLKOV TO
ayadov, to Se KaKov v6aT]p.am voo~qp.aTOS Se (Mr)

ovtos ovSev Set <f>apfia,KOV. dp' ovtoj Tre<f>VKe t Kal
(friXeiTat, rdyadov Sid to kolkov v<j>' r\p,G>v, twv p,eTav
ovtcov tov kclkov T Kai TayaOov, avro Se eavTov
eveKa ov8ep,lav \peiav eêi; "EoiKev, 77 8' os,
ovtojs Xelv- To &Pa <l>lXov ~h^v eKelvo, els o
E eVeAeura ndvTa rd ctAAa eveKa erepov <f>lXov <f>lAa.
e<j>ap,ev etvai e/ceiva ouSev [Se]1 tovtois eoiKev.
TavTa p.ev yap <f>iXov
eveKa <f>tXa Ke/cAijTai, to Se tCo
ovti <f>lXov Trav tovvovtLov tovtov <f>atveTai ve^VKos'
<f>lXov yap rjp.lv dve^dvrj ov eydpov eveKa' el Se to
e)(dpov arreXdoi, ovkcti, ojs eoLK , kod Tjfiuv <j)l\ov .
Ov fioi 8oKel, ye vvv XeyeTai.

e<f>r), u>s Uorepov ,
rjv o eya), irpos &ios, eav to KaKov airoArjTai, ovoe
221 neivfjv en eorai ovSe Sufifjv ov8e dXXo ovBev tujv
tolovtojv; rrelvrj p,ev eoTai, eavrrep dvdpcDTrol Te
r)
Kal TaXXa a>a ov p,evTOi fiAafiepd ye; Kal olipa
fj,
Kal al dAAai imdvfiiai, aXX' ov KaKal, are tov

8r)
KaKov aTToXojXoTOS yeXoTov to epu>Trjp,a, o ti

rj
;
ttot eorai Tore p,r) eorai; t yap oioev; aAA

i]
oSv rdSe ye top,ev, 0V1 Kal vvv earn ireaiGivTo. /?Aa-

Trreodai, eoTi Se Kal oj(f>eXelo6ai. rjydp; Yldvvye.
Ovkovv Kal huftwvTa Kal twv oXXujv tu>v toiovtcov
vdvTOJV eariv evi'ore p.ev
B
e7Ti.6vp,ovvTa oj<f>eXlfj.ojs
eTndvp.elv, evioTe oe fiXafSepcos, eWore Se p,rj8eTepa;
2</>oSpa ye. Ovkovv edv aTroXXvrjTai rd ica/ca,
om. Comarius Heindorf.

1
5^ 5tj
:
62
LYSIS
have to face the fact that itwas because of the bad
that we felt such a friendly affection for the good,
since the good is a cure for the bad, while the bad
is an ailment, and if there is no ailment there is no
need for a cure. Is not this the nature of the good
to be loved because of the bad by us who are midway
between the bad and the good, whereas separately
and for its own sake it is of no use ? Apparently so,
"
he said. Then our friend," in which all the other
"
things terminated we called them friends for the
"
sake of some other friend has no resemblance to
these. For they are described as friends for the
sake of a friend : but the real friend appears to
have quite the opposite character ; for we found it
to be a friend for the sake of a foe, and if the foe
should be removed we have no friend, it seems, any
more. I should say not, he assented, to judge by
our present argument. Tell me, I beg of you, I
went on, if evil is abolished, will it be impossible
any longer to feel hunger or thirst or other such
conditions ? Or will hunger exist, so long as men
and animals exist, but without being hurtful ?
Thirst, too, and all other desires will these exist
without being bad, because the bad will have been
abolished ? Or is this a ridiculous question as
to what will exist or not exist in such a case ? For
who can tell ? Yet this, at all events, we do know
that, as things are now, it is possible for a man to
feel hunger as a hurt, and also to be benefited by it.
You agree ? Certainly. And so, when a man feels
thirst or any other desire of the sort, he may have
that desire sometimes with benefit, sometimes
with harm, and sometimes with neither ? Quite so.
Now if evil things are abolished, is there any reason
63
PLATO
d ye jx-q rvy^dvei ovra Trpoar/Kei tols /ca/cd, ri
/ca/cofc ovvanoXXvad ai; Oi58eV. "Eowtoi dpa. at
pvqre ayadal KaKal emdvLilat, Kal iav <xtt-
fir/re
oXrjrai to. /ca/cd. Olov re ovv ecrrlv
OatVerat.
em9vp,owra /cat epcovra rovrov 06 imOv/xel teal
ipa fir) <f>iXeiv; Ovk ep,oiye 80/cei. "Ecrrai apa
/cat rcov /ca/caiv aTroXop,evojv , cbs eot/ce, <f>DC arret..
C I\at. Uvk av, ei ye to kclkov airiov i\v tov
<plXov ti etvai, ovk dv
ijV
rovrov diroXoLievov cj>iXov
erepov erepep. alrias yap dnoXop,evrjS dovvarov
ttov 7]V er eKelvo etvai, ov Op-
fjv
aurij atTta.
17
dtos Aeyets. Ovkovv cbp,oX6yr]rai rjp,tv ro <f>LXov
tf>iXelv ti Kal 8ta /cat toirjdrjpiev rare ye 8td to
xaKov ro firrre dyadov psfpre /ca/cd ro ayadov
v
D ^lAetv; 'AXrjdfj. Nvv 8e ye, a? eot/ce, </>aiverai
dXXrj ti? air La rov ^tAetv re /cat (friXelodai. "Eot-
/cev. *Ap' ow rep ovti, coenrep dpri eXeyop,ev,
17
emdvp.la rfjs (fiiXLas atrta, /cat to imOvfiovv (piXov
earl rovrco ov imOvfiet Kal rore orav emdvfifj, 0
Se to irporepov eXeyop.ev cf>LXov
etvai, vdXos ns rjv,
cooirep Trol-qpia fxaKpov ovyKelp,evov KtrSwedet,
;
'AAAd ueWot, r\v iyto, ro ye em.6vp.ovv,

8'
e<f>7].
oS dv eVSee? rovrov eiri9vp,ei. yap; Nat.
E
rj
77,
o apa cpiAov eKetvov ov av evoees 77;
evoees
o
Ao/cet /xot. 'EvSees 8e yt'yverat ofi dv Tt1 d^>-

aiprjrai. ou; Tou ot/cet'ou S77, cos eot/cev, 0
II
8'
cos
Te epcoj /cat <f>t,Xla Kal imdvpuia rvyxdvei ovaa,
17
17
cos <f>aiverai, co M.eveeve re Kal Aval. HLvvetpar-qv .
ti. Stephanus tis

1
MBS.
:
i.e. things that are proper or congenial to one.

1
64.
LYSIS
i why the things that are not evil should be abolished

along with the evil ? None. So that those desires
[
which are neither good nor bad will exist even when
the bad things are abolished. Apparently. Now is
it possible for a man, when he desires and loves,
to have no friendly feeling towards that which he
desires and loves ? I think not. Thus certain
things will continue to be friendly, it seems, when
evil things are abolished. Yes. It cannot be that,
if evil were the cause of a thing being friendly,
one thing should be friendly to another when evil
is abolished. For when a cause is abolished, that
thing can no longer exist, I presume, which had this
I as its cause. You are right. Now we have agreed
'that the friend has a friendly feeling for something
and because of something ; and we supposed, just
then, that it was because of evil that what was
'neither good nor bad loved the good. True. But
now, it seems, we make out a different cause of
loving and being loved. It seems so. Can it really
'
be then, as we were saying just now, that desire is

the cause of friendship, and the desiring thing is a
friend to what which it desires, and is so at any
time of desiring ; while our earlier statement
about friends was all mere drivel, like a poem
strung out for mere length ? It looks like it, he
i said. But still, I went on, the desiring thing desires
'
that in which it is deficient, does it not ? Yes.
And the deficient is a friend to that in which it is
deficient ? I suppose so. And it becomes deficient
in that of which it suffers a deprivation. To be
sure. So it is one's own belongings,1 it seems, that
are the objects of love and friendship and desire ;
so it appears, Menexenus and Lysis. They both
vol. v f 65
PLATO
'Y/iels dpa el earov dXXrjXois, <f>vaei ttjj

<f>iXoi
oiKetot eo6' vp.iv airois. KofxiSfj, e<f>drr]v. Kai
rjv
222 el dpa ris erepos erepov emdvp-ei, eyco, cu
8
Tralhes, epa, ovk av irore eiredvp,ei ov8e rjpa ouSe
el t)
i<f>iXei, firj olKeios 7777 rep eptopievcp ervy\a.v^v
tbv Kara, rrjv ^vxty Kara ti rfjs foxfjs V@os
Tj
7)
Tponovs eiSo?. Haw ye, e<f>rj Meve'êvos"
6
rj
77
o be Avals eaiyrjaev. iLiev, i\v o eyco. to

p,ev Srj (f>vaei oiKelov avayKaiov rjp.lv TrecbavTui
cj>iXelv. "EoiKev, e<f>T)- AvayKaiov apa rip yvrj-
aicp epaarfj Kai /rr) TrpoaTroirjrtp <j)iXela6ai urto
rdv iraioiKcov. p.ev ovv Averts Kai Mfve-
B
6
6
evos p.6yis ttcos eTTevevadrrjv, Se 'iTnrodd/Krjs
6
viro rfjs rjdovfjs TravrooaTra r)<j>iei xptbp.ara.
Kai eyco eiirov, /3ovX6p,evos tov Xoyov emorce-
ifjaaOai, Ei p.ev ti to oiKelov tov opolov oia<f>epei,
Xiyoipev av ti, to? ep,ol ooxei, to Aval re Kai Meve-
o eariv Se ravrov rvyydvei
el
eve, vepl <j>iXov,

ov op,oiov re Kai oiKelov, ov pdSiov aTrofiaXeiv tov
npoaOev Xoyov, oj? ov to
op,oiov rep op.0110 Kara
tt]V 6p.oioT7}Ta dxprjarov to Se dyjpi\OTOv <f>iXov
S' eyco,
r]v
opioXoyeiv 7rXrjp,p,eXes . fiovXeod' ovv,

C
eTreiSrj coanepfiedvofiev vno tov Xoyov, avy-

)(coprjacop.ev Kai <f>cop.ev erepov ti etvai to oIkciov
tov opiolov; Haw ye. Uorepov oiv Kai rdyauov
oiKelov 6r]aop.ev navri, to Se KaKov aXXorpiov
elvai; to p.ev KaKov rep KaKtp oiKelov, rep Se
r)
dyadcp to
dyaBov, rep Se p-ryre dyadcp p.rjre kcxkco
to pvrjre dyadov p.rjre KaKov; Ovrcos e<f>drrjv So/ceiv
acpiaiv eKaarov eKaarai oiKelov elvai. TldXiv
66
LYSIS
agreed. Then if you two are friends to each other
hy some natural bond you belong to one another.
Precisely, they said. And in a case where one
person desires another, my boys, or loves him,
he would never be desiring or loving or befriending
him, unless he somehow belonged to his beloved
either in soul, or in some disposition, demeanour
or cast of soul. Yes, to be sure, said Menexenus ;
but Lysis was silent. Very well, said I : what
belongs to us by nature has been shown to be some
thing we needs must befriend. It seems so, he said.
Then the genuine, not the pretended, lover must
needs be befriended by his favourite. To this Lysis
and Menexenus gave but a faint nod of assent ;
while Hippothales, in his delight, turned all manner
of colours.
So then, with the design of reviewing the argument,
I proceeded : Ifthere is any difference between
what belongs and what is like, it seems to me, Lysis
and Menexenus, that we might give some account
"
of the meaning of friend." But if " like " and
" "
belonging are the same, it is not easy to get
rid of our former statement, that the like is useless
to the like in so far as they have likeness ; and to
admit that the useless is friendly would be a gross
mistake. So how if we agree now, I said, since our
argument has made us quite tipsy, to say that the
belonging and the like are two different things ?
By all means. Then shall we maintain that the good
itself belongs to every one, while the bad is alien ?
Or does the bad belong to the bad, the good to the
good, and what is neither good nor bad to what is
neither good nor bad ? They agreed that the last
three pairs belong together. So here again, boys,
67
PLATO
rraiSes, ovs ro rrpGirov Xoyovs
r]v
8'
J) dpa,
<3
eyd),
drrefiaXopieBa rrepl <f>iXlas, els rovrovs eloTTenrco-
Ka/xev yap d8iKOS rip olSIku) koI xaxos ftp
6
6
KaKip oi)8ev r]rrov <f>iXos ear ai dyados ru> dya-
6
rj
6a>. "EoiKev, e<prj. Ti Se; ro dyaOdv ko.1 to
oIkzXov dv ravrov <f>a>p.ev etvai, dXXo tl dyaOos
6
rj
rut ayadut p.6vov <f>iXos; YIdvv ye. 'AAAa pirjv
ko.1 rovro ye d>6p,eda eeXeyai r/fids avrovs' ov
rj
p.ip.vr\ade; Mep.vfjp.eda.
Tt ovv dv en xprjcraip,eda to) Xoyat; SfjXov
E
rj
on ovhev; Seop.ai ovv, aicnrep ol oo<f>ol ev rois
SiKaorrjpiois, rd elprjfieva dnavra avar:ep.Traaa.-
odai. ydp p.f]re ol <f>iXovp,evoi p.-qre ol <f>iXovvres
el
pvr\re ol o/xotoi p,rjre ol dvop.oi.oi pvqre ol ayadoi

pvqre ol oiKetoi p/qre rd dXXa ooa 8ieXrjXvdap.ev

ov ydp eyojye en p.ep,vi)p.ai vnd rov TrXrj&ovs dXX'
p,r)8ev rovra)j> ifriXov eariv, eyd> p,ev ovKen ex00
el
ri Xeyco.
TauTa Tiva rutv
8'
223 elrrcbv ev vat efyov dXXov 17817
irpeofivrepcovKivelv Kara, uiarrep 8aip.oves rives,

irpooeXdovres ol naiSaycoyoi, re rov Mevetjevov
o
Kai rov Avoi8os, e\ovres avrwv rovs dSeXcpovs

6
irapexdXovv koX eiceXevov avrovs oiKaSe dmevai- ,

ro p.ev ovv rrpwrov /cat rjp.els
rjv
17817 ydp oipe.

al 01 TrepieoruJres avrovs aTrqXavvop.ev erreihr)
8e ov8ev i<f>p6vrit,ov rjp,d)v, dXX' VTTof$apfSaplt,ovres
rjyavaKrovv re koi ov8ev rjrrov exaXovv, dXX eSo-
kovv r)p.iv vrroTTerroiKores ev rois 'Ep/âtoi? anopoi
B
elvai Trpoa<j)epeadai, rjrrrjdevres ovv avrdjv 81-
The word " belonging " seems to throw some light on

1
"friend," but even we distinguish from "like" turns

if
it
it
68
LYSIS
I said, we have dropped into the very statements
regarding friendship which we rejected at first ; for
now the unjust will be as much a friend of the
unjust, and the bad of the bad, as the good of the
good.1 So it seems, he said. And what is more,
if we say that the good and the belonging are the
same, we cannot avoid making the good a friend only
to the good. To be sure. But this again, you know,
is a view of which we thought we had disabused
ourselves ; you remember, do you not ? We do.
So what more can we do with our argument ?
Obviously, I think, nothing. I can only ask you,
accordingly, like the professional pleaders in the law
courts, to perpend the whole of what has been said.
If neither the loved nor the loving, nor the like nor
the unlike, nor the good nor the belonging, nor all
the rest that we have tried in turn they are so
many that I, for one, fail to remember any more
well, if none of these is a friend, I am at a loss for
anything further to say.
Having thus spoken, I was minded to stir up
somebody else among the older people there ;
when, like spirits from another world, there came
upon us the tutors of Menexenus and Lysis : they
were bringing along the boys' brothers, and called
out to them the order to go home ; for it was getting
late. At first we tried, with the help of the group
around us, to drive the tutors off; but they took
no notice of us at all, and went on angrily calling,
as before, in their foreign accent. We decided that
they had taken a drop too much at the festival
and might be awkward customers ; so we gave in
out to be just as indifferent to good and bad, and therefore

"
just as remote from the moral significance of friend."
69
PLATO
eXvaapev rrjv avvovaiav. S/jLCOS 8' eytoye a.ir-

17S77
iovtojv aira>v, Nro pev, Avcn re koll
rjv
8'
eya>, a>
M.eveeve, KarayeXaaroi yeyovap,ev eydi re, yeptov

avrfp, /ecu vp,els. epovai yap o"Se amovres cos-
oiojxeda rj/jieis dAAÂaw <f>i\oi etvat, /cat ep,e yap
ev vp.LV Tior)p,i ovrrco be ti eariv o olol
o
cpt,Aos
re eyevop,e6a eevpetv.
70
LYSIS
to them, and broke up our party. However, just
as they were moving off', I remarked : To-day,
Lysis and Menexenus, we have made ourselves
ridiculous I, an old man, as well as you. For
these others will go away and tell how we believe
we are friends of one another for I count myself
" "
in with you but what a friend is, we have not
vet succeeded in discovering.
71
SYMPOSIUM
INTRODUCTION TO THE SYMPOSIUM
The Symposium of Plato holds an acknowledged place
among those few masterpieces of human art which
unveil and interpret something of the centrar mystery
of life. It has been a source of light and inspiration
to successive ages since the revival of learning,
and is revisited by the same reader at different
times of life with fresh wonder and praise. Like
other great works of art, it provides its own intro
duction ; so perfectly is the scene set and presented
that even at the distance of twenty-three centuries
we are able to catch the various tones of the speakers,
first in the ripple of their casual talk, and then in
the flow of their competitive eloquence. But while
the modern reader can hardly miss the main effect
of the simple narrative, as it develops the lively
drama in which the sparkle of satiric wit is made to
enhance the glow of high poetic rapture, there are
one or two points to which attention may be usefully
directed, in order that the work may convey the
fullest possible measure of its meaning and value.
Its theme is the passion of personal love, so often
the subject or occasion of literary art, but rarely
examined in its moral aspect with any true perception
or profit. Love is here treated with a sense of its
universal importance and with a reach and certainty
of insight which do not appear in any other of the
74
great religious or moral teachers. This confident

mastery was one of the extraordinary powers of
, Socrates which Plato at this stage of his writing
was intent on portraying ; it was one of the strangely
memorable impressions which the elder man left
on his associates, in spite of his simple, inquisitive
manner and his constant avowals of ignorance. In
some of his more positive moods he described himself
" lover,"
as an inveterate in the sense of a declared
and devout worshipper of the great energy of
Nature which in its various workings amongst men
"
was called by the general name of Eros." Often
he would feign, in his playful, paradoxical way, to
put himself on a level with ordinary sensual men,
and by discussing their views if they had any, and
consented to state them would endeavour to lead
the talk on to his own conception of love, where it
i was to be approached on the loftiest and most
serious plane of thought. For the very purpose of
a telling contrast with the common attitude to the
matter, he would make a humorous use of the terms
of ordinary love-passion to produce a sudden surprise in
his hearers, when they found that his own pursuit of
intellectual refinement through friendly or affectionate
intercourse was independent of the outward attrac
tions of sense. So much of explanation may perhaps
be necessary, and may just suffice, for a right under
standing of his banter with Alcibiades in this dialogue.
It is one of the great dramatic excellences of
Plato that he shows us how Socrates adapted his
tone and language to the characters of his hearers
and to the several stages of his argument or exposi
tion. This ready sense of the daily lives and thoughts
of his companions, no less than the half-logical,
75
half - mystical bent of his energetic mind, led him
to the knowledge that, however easily or completely
he might have freed his own faculties from the
confusing trammels of carnal appetite, the mass of
mankind was subject to the sway of bodily beauty ;
and that no theory of love could be satisfactory
which did not take due account of this elemental
fact of human nature. So he seizes this favourable
Tfioment in the talk at Agathon's party to suggest
that visible beauty is the most obvious and distinct
reflection in our terrene life of an eternal, im
mutable Beauty, perceived not with the eye but
with the mind. He preaches no avoidance of the
contest with appetite, but rather the achievement
of a definite victory over the lower elements of
love-passion, and the pursuit of beauty on higher
and higher levels until, as in a sudden flash, its
ultimate and all-rewarding essence is revealed.
His modest attribution of the theory to his in
structress, the wise woman of Mantinea, is probably
meant to indicate that we are passing beyond
the bounds of Socratic thought and listening really
to Plato ; but it is quite possible and reasonable
to suppose that Socrates is relating the actual
results of his own cogitation after a discussion with
some revered and impressive counsellor.
In this dialogue the theory is only adumbrated
for an exalted moment in convivial talk : its far-
reaching developments in psychology and meta
physics are set forth in the Republic, Phaedrus,
Phaedo, and elsewhere. Here, through the glow
of poetic speculation, we get a glimpse, not merely
of a logical theory, but of a whole philosophy or
way of life a progress towards complete enlighten
76
ment which is commended to all who have opened

their eyes enough to see that they walk in the
shades of ignorance. The final stages, it seems, may
be too difficult even for Socrates himself to com
prehend : thus with many hesitations and apologies
the great master of inquiry seeks to communicate
a thrilling adventure of his thought a wondering
" "
recognition of the general idea or immaterial
form which presides over all similar appearances in
the material world. An absorbing thought, we are
told, kept him standing in the street for some time
before he joined the dinner-party : so here he shows I
us something of his endeavours to reach the summit I
of wisdom, and to move in a realm of absolute being \
which perhaps is beyond the utmost flight of philo- 1
sophy. But the main thesis seeks to show how '
through the slavish trance of sensual charm we may
| pass
with ever wakening and widening powers to the
best and freest activity of our faculties, the con-
templation of invisible, eternal verity. The lowest

is linked with the highest ; and it is noteworthy
that Alcibiades' eulogy of Socrates serves to fix
attention on the practical beginnings of the progress,
by demonstrating that a rare intellectual communion
may be built on the defeat of mere sensual aims.
In the proportions of its design and the texture
I
of its style the Symposium stands out from even the
best writings of Plato as a marvel of artistic ease
and grace. Translations have frequently succeeded
in presenting his vivid picture of the social manners
of the place and time, and much of the beauty of
his eloquence ; but they have failed to transmit
his brilliant characterization of the individual
speakers in the style of their addresses. An
77
attempt has been made here to indicate in different

" "
sorts and degrees the euphuistic influence of
Sicilian rhetoric in the speeches of Phaedrus, Pau-
sanias, and Agathon; the "medical college" manner
of Eryximachus ; the racy, extravagant humour
of Aristophanes ; the lofty solemnity of Diotima ;
and the frank, unbosoming tone of Alcibiades.
The date of the opening conversation is about
400 b.c. ; the banquet itself was in 416 b.c Apollo-
dorus, whom we meet also in the Phaedrus (59), was
noted for his enthusiastic attachment to Socrates
in his last years ; Aristodemus, who related to him
the story of the banquet, was the Master's intimate
of an earlier time. Agathon, the brilliant and
courteous host, has just won the prize with the first
"
part of a " tetralogy or group of four plays at a
dramatic festival : he was born about 447 b.c, and
studied rhetoric under Gorgias and Prodicus.
Phaedrus, who makes the first speech at the party,
was a disciple of Hippias (Protag. 315 c), and a
friend of Plato, who gave his name to the other
dialogue (the Phaedrus) which especially deals with
the subject of love. Pausanias, the next speaker,
was a disciple of Prodicus (Protag. 315 d) and a
passionate admirer of Agathon ; his speech is a
typical exhibition of the plausible, ornamental
rhetoric of the literary sophists. Eryximachus, son
of the physician Acumenus, followed his father's
profession and belonged to the great medical guild
of the Asclepiadae. He has the unbending gravity
and cold, dogmatic utterance of the student and
upholder of science. Aristophanes, the great comic
poet and close contemporary of Agathon, had seized
on the originality which distinguished Socrates from
78
the ordinary sophists, and also on his scientific
learning and argumentative subtlety, to make him
the central figure of fun in the Clouds (423 B.C.).
Here he makes the theme of love the occasion for
a satirical sketch, in his own fantastic spirit and
brilliant style, of physiological theories of the day.
Alcibiades 450-404- B.C.) shown at the height
(c.
is
of his popularity, a year before he sailed with the
Sicilian Expedition. The tipsy immodesty of his
mood throws into noble relief the passionate warmth
of his admiration for the character of Socrates.
For fuller of the Symposium readers

discussions
are recommended to consult Jowett's Introduction
(1892), and Dr. R. G. Bury's useful edition (1909).
7!)
, ^TMnOÎON

in
l'.
':.
AnOAAOAnPOS ETAIP02
AIT- -rrwddveade ovk dpeXer-qTos

Ao/cc3 A10' ""e/ol >v
So
172
etvai. Kal yap ervyâvov Trpcor/v els dcrrv oiKoOev
dvicov Q>aXr)p69ev tiov ovv yvojpijxcov tls o-rriadev
Katihibv /ne Troppcodev eKaXeoe, /cat 7rata>v a/ia. tjj
/cAô-ei, *X2. ovtos 'ATToXX68ojpos,
QaXrjpevs, etfyq,
oil Trepifieve?s Kaycb emends irepi.ep.eiva- /cat os,
;
'AiroAAdScope, e<j>i), /cat prjv Kal evayxps ae tf-

tovv fiovXopevos SiaTTvdecrdat. rrjv AydOtovos crvv-
''
ovaiav Kal TiWKpdrovs Kal 'AA/ci/Jia8oi> /cat tojv

B
aXXcov tcov rore ev toj owSetirvip napayevopevcov,

nepl tcov ipurrLKCov Xoycov rives rjaav. aAAo? yo.p
ns poi SnjyetTo aK7]Kod)s Oowucos tov îXIttttov,
ecprj be /cat ere etoevat. aAAa yap ovoev etê cracpes
Xeyew cn> ovv pot, Sirjyrjcjai- St/catoTaro? yap ei
tovs tov eraipov Xoyovs anayyeXXetv . irpoTepov
he poi, os, elire, oil avros rrapeyevov rfj avvov-
8'
f)
aiq. TavTTj ov; Kaych elnov ort TlavTaTracriv

r)
eoiKe aoi ovSev SirjyeZodai oa<f>es Sirjyovpevos

C
vecoarl r/yfj ttjv avvovaiav yeyovevai ravr-qv fjv

el
Nothing known of this man.

is
1
80
THE SYMPOSIUM
Apollodorus tells his Companions how he heard
about the Banquet
ap. I believe I have got the story you inquire of

pretty well by heart.
The day before yesterday
I I chanced to be going up to town from my house in
I Phalerum, when one of my acquaintance caught
sight of me from behind, some way off, and called
[
in a bantering tone
" Hullo, I say,
Phalerian !
\ Apollodorus, wait a moment." So I stopped and
Then, " Apollodorus," he said, " do you
'
waited.
; know, I have just been looking for you, as I want
to hear all about the banquet that brought together
Agathon and Socrates and Alcibiades and the rest
of that party, and what were the speeches they
delivered upon love. For somebody else was
relating to me the account he had from Phoenix,1
son of Philip, and he mentioned that you knew it
, too. But he could not tell it at all clearly ; so you
'
must give me the whole story, for you are the most
proper reporter of your dear friend's discourses. But
first tell me this," he went on ;
" were you at that
"
party yourself, or not ? To which my answer was :
"
You have had anything but a clear account from
your informant, if you suppose the party you are
asking about to have been such a recent affair
vol. v g 81
PLATO
* e/ v i \ /
pors, diate kai "E
**.
* p Tapayevoffat. "Eydoye 8%
*
&#m.
ey
II6ev, jv 3 eyd, 6 TAakov; ok
* * o'
eTool/ *A yatov

o"t 7TO/\/\Col/
AA. 6 #v668
vde
2
ovk tude0)
Beff.
* \
d.b
Xokptet
of
punkev, eyd, ovv8tatpiffa,
Kai
ey
&TueMs Tetoinual kdorms jupas elval
5
v
Ayn o8tro &rn criv;

TpTTm, Tpia
"I'
173 Tepitpxov Tm Txotul kai oiuevos
B
Tob
Towev d6Auditepos tovov, ox #TTov
oil
wi.
in
i
oiuevos beiv tvra
- uAAov TpTrew boooohs'
)
ey
Kai s, M3) oktt, pm, dAA eit uot 76te

w
*/
2
'...'.
/
*
y
e
/
veto
3/ - */ e/airm.* kya, eltov 3rt IIa8w
ovvovoia
e
y
5
r
"udov * eTV, OT Tm Tpa) Tim Tpay96ig
!
Ol/Tool/ evikmaty
-
ti)
5
1
Ayd6aov, jotepaig

T
i tivikva 6vey air:
,
IIdvv,
*
Te
t
kai Xopeutai. dpa tdMat,
of
pm,
0.
&oukev. dAN Tis Got Bunyetro; airs Xa.
*
)
2Y Y? ...
w
r
tv, Ala,
udv
Kprns;
35
/
*
O jv &yd, dAN
0.
Tep doivuku 'Aptotmuos tis,
#v
Kv3affnvale.
j'
ww.
guukps, divvtntos det: Tapayeyvel
3
&
ovvovaig, Xokptovs paoti's div
i.
tols uAT:
v
dis
Tv Tre, poi oket, uvrov dAM K!'

Xokpt) jkov'
ye
jn
T'
via dvmpumv ketvov
scal uot duoMyet kaflep ketvos 8-myetro,
D
t
ov, &pm,
o
8wny joco plot; Tvros

B
s
"|
i
p

els datv tutmeta tropevouvous kat Myew

d

dikov Ll/.
6)
Oro ivres
e/ e/
dua Toijs Ayovs wept air."
>
*
5
*
C eTotovueda, Coote, ottep

*
OpXouevos eitov, ovK Gl

5
6
t"
s -
*/
ei *
*
=
q
Aeritos * obv Bet kai */ juv 8vnyijaao!'

\
* xo.
w
3.
Taira Xpi) Towev. Kai yap yaoye kai AA0%

*
#AA
pm add. Burnet.
*
Perhaps the father

of
Charmides (Charm. 154).

*
SYMPOSIUM
'',gas # ## # # '''
be
that could included. So did suppose,
I
I
said. How Glaucon'? You
he
so, said
I.
must know many year that Agathon has been
it
is
a
away from home and country, and not yet three
years that have been consorting with Socrates
I
my daily care
and making
to
know whatever he
it
time, what with running

or
says
Before that
does.
random and thinking did things,
at
about was
I
alive; just
the
you
at
as
wretchedest man are
...
present, thinking philosophy your busi
of
none
at is
...
jeering me, said, tell

of
Instead he
*' ":
ness.
me when was that this party took place.
it
When you and were only children, told him;

I
I
*:: Agathon's victory with his
on
of
the occasion
first tragedy: the day after that the dedicatory
'il
of
a his
its
he
feast which and players held for celebra

iMtion. Ah, quite long while ago, would it
but who gave you the account
$'#
he
seem, said
;
no
it? Socrates himself? Goodness, !
of
answered. It
was the person who told Phoenix I
#
Cydathenaeum, little man, who

of
}
Aristodemus
a
always barefoot. the company

of
#ent He was
'there, being one the chief among Socrates'
of
all
'lovers time, the same,

at
that believe. But

of I
I
have since questioned Socrates on some details

l"
his
he
"the story had from friend, and acknowledged

be I
Come
to
accordance with his account.

up in
them
,
said, let me have

he
i"then,
in
now and fact

it
for ;
telling and
to
"the road town well suited

is
go
hearing along.
as
we
#
So
on
we went, discoursing the while

of
this
#
affair; and hence, began by saying,

as
have
it
I
I
by
-pretty well heart. So, friends, you too must

if
it.
hear the whole story, had better tell For my

#
83
PLATO
airs
3rav uv *WTavas Tepi 4xogopias Ayovs
* */ o
wo, xopis to oleoffat diffe
Totual e &MAaov * dico / ey
a e
Xaipao 8 d'AAovs Tudi
57tepdbvs
Aeto.6at dis OTo
getpous To" s- Tw TAdvolo
|
AAos Te kal Tows
ars re *---- dx}ouat *#6s *
*
kal Xpmuatuorukw,5* * * w
o:8:
Tous et Gupo us xe, 3rt offeoffe Ti Tote'"
*
e
w
w s/ * * *
's
kai toos at 5uets u #yctode
* 3f 6 -
D
TrotovTes. e = 2
An60 oieg"
w */
f
8 atuova $ elva, kai otola >\ \ 3
a' *6 5/ 6 s.
dAA et otoa.
Juds ovkoto"
3 *
gy, pvrot |
del
Fr.
Ael otos * et,

6Atowope yp Gw.
5
3/
kal Bok
*
*
kai Tows d'Aous,
Te
Kakmyopets
*
rw
* a
\>0.
A.
iyetoffat TA)
X
#6Xi.
5
po, drexvs Tavras* awatows
}
"
5
w
kprovs, d:to Gavrot. dpuevos. kai tdev

5
a
Ty &rovvutav &Aaes paviks Ka'!'
*
o
T
v
Tavrm
y
2
s
.
.
.
Ayo's"|
3/

offat, ok ot3a &yoye: uv yp Tos

v
gavr kai Tois AAols dyplai's]"

el:
Te
Tolobros
"
T}\}v
Xokptovs.
8w
6tt
ye
oira,
8:
An
'Q
harate, scal 85Xv

E.
kai Tep duautob sal

rept uv
woodwevos
/
pal kai Tapata";

*
yf
Arro)Mape,
ET.
Ojic dvov Tepi Toitov, (

I
Toti'
u)
epigetv. dAA' 5tep &eue66 Gov, &AAos
*
&AA 8%yngal rives jaay Ayot.
of
An
"Hoay rolvvv ketvo Totote rivs' uM|

|
dis
&ketvos Bunyetto kai yd

&#
1748 dpxs buiv

goua, Bunyigaoffat.
'
deserve
I
His friend means: expect you quite

1
(for your general absorption

of
name crazy fanatic

84
SYMPOSIUM
; : : own part, indeed, I

commonly find that, setting
# aside the benefit I
conceive they do me, take an I
immense delight in philosophic discourses, whether
|005
I
speak them myself or hear them from others:
TM'
whereas in the case of other sorts of talkespecially
# that of your wealthy, money-bag friendsI am
6 : not only annoyed myself but sorry for dear intimates
you, who think you are doing a great deal when
# * like
you really do nothing at all. From your point of
i
& view, I daresay, I seem a hapless creature, and I
think your thought is true. I, however, do not think
it of you: I know it for sure.
# CoMP. You are the same as ever, Apollodorus,
* * always defaming your self and every one else!
it,
m\}.
Your view, I take that all men alike are miser
is
''' able, save Socrates, and that your own plight
is
# * the worst. How you may have come by your
\\ crazy,
do
though,
of
of of
title not know
I
course, you are always like that your way

in
#. speechraging against yourself and everybody

except Socrates.
AP. My dear sir, obviously must be mere
it
ow.
a
me, hold this opinion

of
()' crazy aberration

to
allin
myself and you

is of
of !
time, Apollodorus, wrangle

to
It
CoMP. waste
about such matters now. Come, without more ado,
comply with our request and relate how the speeches
Went.
Well then, they were somewhat follows,
as
AP.
all
but stay, must try and tell you

in
order
I
from the beginning, just my friend told

as
it
to me.
philosophy), because your vehement censure yourself

of
# and others suggests it to me.

85
PLATO
* p
"E ydo
vrvyetv
X oi Xokodtn
AeAovuvoy
p m
m a. e a' & 5 * 5
d\"
Te kai Ts 8Aavras iTroe3euvov, kelvos
ef
yakus toiew: kai poffat airw not
to
-
off"
scaRs yeyevnuvos. *
e tf
5.
w
w
w
5
'Ett
d

2
Kai Tv eitely ettvov
* eis Aydflavor.
w
d
w
6
X6s yp airv 8tfivyov Tots tunkiois, hobnik's
8
3 5
Tv* x\ov diplomymoa eis Tijuepov tapaeoffat.
ka}\\otiaduqv, * iva kaMs tap kaM
t
)
rara
|| ||
*
6Q3
ov, 6s, Ts xels Tps
T
too. dAAd
#
* 6Me"
v.
5
Bettvov;
&v
ival dk}\ntos *ti

B
|
Kyd, pm, eltov r. Oira's 5ta's
t
dy
*
Gi
b
*
|
a
:r
keMetns.
*
*
*
*
"ETov Toivvv, fin, iva kal Tjv Tapoulav 6ta:
dis
$6eipouev ueraAAoutes, dpa kai Aydflow"
Tuatov dyadoi. "Outpos
of at
&T Batras taow

pav yp kivvvejet uvov 8tab6epal dAAd
ki y,
#8ploat els. Tatni Tip Tapoulav. Tovio
as
Tv 'Ayapuvova. 3rahepvros dyadov dvpa
ri
ToMeuk, Tv MevAeov uaA6akw aiyur
B
C
Tiv, 6votav Totov'ov Acal orvovros Tob 'Aya:

puvovos dramtov etoinaev A6vra Tv Mevlemy
ti riv 6oivny, Xeipo vta ti Tiju Toi dueivovos,
Tar dkovaas eitely n "Ioans uvrov kvv
dis
vego kai yd, otz Ayes, X6kpates,

on
&
v
off
dAA kaff "Oumpov haMos mi god dvp;

''Aydwy' Lachmann yabw Mss.
:
The name Agathon resembles the Greek for good me."

1
the proverb, which seems

to
in
have been: abruaro. dyad"

5
#ygdy &rl dairas tags (Athen. 8A: Bacchyl. fr. 33). The
i.
w()
corruption consists putting the dative Ay06

in
for
&ya6&v; though perhaps the reference

to
another form
is
0
of
the proverb which had bet\w (cravens') instead dyadw,

86
SYMPOSIUM
&# Hon. Aristodemus fell in nith Socrates and came

#:
"
to the Banquet
He said that he met with Socrates fresh from the
* a bath and wearing his best pair of slippersquite

rare events with himand asked him whither he
# was bound in such fine trim.
p: To dinner at Agathon's, he answered. I
i' evaded him and his celebrations yesterday, fearing
## the crowd; but I agreed to be present to-day. So
I got myself up in this handsome style in order to
s # be a match for my handsome host. Now tell me,
said he, do you feel in the mood for going unasked
dinner ?
*'. to
For anything, he
may bid me do.
said he replied, that you
:: Come along then, he said;

the proverb with a new version :
let us corrupt
10
# What if they go of their own accord,

# (1||
The good men to our Goodman's' board?
# Though indeed Homer may be said to have not

| A merely corrupted the adage, but debauched it:
for
'...
after setting forth Agamemnon

as
man
as a
16|
eminently good warfare, and Menelaus only
at
he
spearman spiritless, makes the latter come

a
'
i"#''
the banquet the former, who was

of
to
unbidden
offering sacrifice and holding feast;
so
the worse
a
man was the guest

of
the better.
__.
a he
To this my friend's answer, told me, was:

as
*"I am afraid mine, most likely, case that fits

is
#not your version, Socrates, but Homer'sa dolt

coming unbidden the banquet
of
to
scholar. Be
a
#
::
Il.
ye
xvii. 587 MevAaov wiretpgas,

T
rpos ua)\6aks
s
*
dyads MevAaos.
ii.
alxumrijs, and 408 airuaros )\6e 8ohv

ol
87
PLATO
ival doivny dramros. pa ov dyov us ti ! da"

yjon, yd wv ox duoMoyffoa. k\ntos fire"
dis
|
D
&AA 57 oob kek}\muvos.
Xv 86, &m, pxouvo Tp
Te
Toi"
d
BovXevgple6a pobuey, dAAd togev.
Tt

Totabr' dra obs bn 8taxex6vras l".
Ty ov Xokprm avr was apogxovra
"|
pov card rv 8v Topeeoffat ToMetrple"
T'
||
T els
kal repuvovros kemtiew "poival
off
to
'Ay"
T
ti oikig
88
E6ev. ne,8# yevoffat

vos, dweqryvny kataAap Bvew Tv pay, k'
| ': : '
&#7 air6 yeMotov Taffety y yp ei's
of
Tad riva voffew dTavrijaavta dyew
of
kar
grewroot dAAoi, kai kataMaudvew jn uMo"
eis dis
Sempeiv. ieiv Tv 'Ayddova,
""
e560s ov
8
didval, 'Aptormue, jkets 6ta's
||
kaRv
affs
els
Settvians: d'AAov Tws veka #A6es,
dis el
8'
kal kaAo" wa
Ge
vaa Aob, X6es &ntw

Xokptn juiv Ts oix
T
oix ols ieiv. dAAd
#
a's:
3/
y, #m, pleTaqtpehuevos ojquoi p'

,
- ...'
,
Kai
67
Xokptm tuevow: eitov obv kal airs ple:

Xokprovs icout, k\ndels : ''
it
keivov 3eip
in
8e0Tvoy.
y,
&T'''
of
KaAs &hn, Totv dAAd To

"H
offtos
;
6avuo
"
:
175 Ontadev uoff dot eloiet dAAd
ars Tob dyein.
0
{
O) grly, pm, Tat, didval Tv 'Aydflava, "|''

''
Ti,
Badham pa, pa M*
Ti
Spa
Tt
.
.
.
.
:
.
.
88
SYMPOSIUM
#2 sure, then, to have your excuse quite ready when

you bring me; for I
shall not own to coming un
asked, but only on your invitation.
If
two go along together, he remarked,
there's one before another ' " in devising what

0
we are to say. Well, off we go.

After some such conversation, he told me, they
in started off. Then Socrates, becoming absorbed in
#
by
his
own thoughts the way, fell behind him
as
...
they went; and when my friend began
to
wait
he
he
So
on
go
to
'A' for him bade him ahead. came
A.
Agathon's house, and found the door open; where

**
rather ridiculous position.

he
in
found himself
a
by
was met immediately
he
For servant from

a
0."
within, who took him where the company was

found them just about
he
1&M reclining, and
to
dine.
However, Agathon saw himHa,
as
as
lo". soon
right welcome
he
*
Aristodemus, cried, place

to
a
on
table with us! you came some other errand,

If
at
put off another time only yesterday went

to
it
d'
:
you, you.
it to
to
round invite but failed see But

Socrates ?
do
you bring
us
*
how not
is
he
At that turned back for Socrates, said, but

I
sign him coming after me:

of
no
so
Wii
saw told them

r:
I
how myself had come along with Socrates, since he

I
me
#
to
had asked dine with them.

Very good said, but
he
you come,
of
to
where the man

is
He
was coming just now behind me:

in
* "
am
"
wondering myself where

he
can be.
...
Go once, Agathon the servant, and

to
said
Il. at
65' pxogvo, kat Tp

Te
Cf. 224 avy rob vngev

x.
re
6
*
(0%
if
two go along together, there's one
to
87t
Tws kpos m,
*py before another how profit may be had.

a
89
PLATO
8',
elodgets Xokprm;
5s,
on 'Aptor3)6,
8
#
Tap 'Eoviuaxov karakAlvou.
Kai *\
d
uvi &#m droview Tata,
#. he
Tv
|
*
ey
8
To
5
#AA
/
B
*Takeo Tiva Tv Taffov jeew dyy'.
GAAov
| '
Movta tt. Xokprns
of
ros dvaxopjaas
"
kaloj",
o
Tw yearvoy Tpo6.jpg &otmke kal
l.
ok 6Aet eiotvau.
Y,
* -
-
&m, Ayes officovu Kaxets air:
3
"AroTw
||
Kai un dhijoets; * * *
|
*/
| l
Kai eitely Mmaus, *
s
bn
/
3/
dAA &re air.
* */
dis k
>
a
ey
tos ydp Tott &et
5
/
*
w *
*
Tt
&vtore d7. ords otol
'
ey
djsw
#et *
8
Txm otnicev.
* * attika, y, olpa
w
Am ovy Kuvette, #AA OLTe

5
a
'AAA oita Xph Towetv, ei ool oket, &hn diffic
s
* tv 'Ayd6aova. dAA jus, & Tates, rows dMovil'
*
A.
Tapariffere
&v
eartre. Tdvta's
-
T.

* BoAngik
'tI.i
p.
p")w
Tis
juv heorijkm
(5
etevdi yd, ow8ewditor:
sue ##||
().
kai
* * "uttoires
-
kekAoffat ti Bettvov kal Tovose Toys dAMo','

6epatevere, iva jus tawuev.
0.
* *
!
5/
*
$.
In
Met Tabra n odds gv Bettvety, ry
|
C
!
Xokptm othe elovval. Tv off, 'Ayd6aova
Tok'
&
di'i'
Adkis Aetatu hagflat Tv Xokprm,
keMeetv
*
or
ey
noxy xpvov, Gil'
|
8
v. firew offv airv

of
t
-
ei6et, * Rf
/
watpi havta, GAAG

2
/
iAA
offis peo"
8
dA
6.
* udavora
6
*
w
\,
5
Set Tvotivtas. Tv otyv Ayd6aova, Tvyxvetv y}|I'll:

/
*
.
/
a.
oxarov Karakei'evov uvov, Aeop',
WI6
hn diffe'
dikpates, Top eple ko Tarceloo, iva ka! Toff*
5
ey
*
*
X.
gofoi
le
>
a.
dTrplevs oov dToMavoo, ti),
*
oot Tpooarn
D
uv Bast: u Mss.
l
*
*
90
SYMPOSIUM
see if you can fetch in Socrates. You, Aristodemus,

Wr take a place by Eryximachus.
So the attendant washed him and made him
rai, ready for reclining, when another of the servants
way: came in with the news that our good Socrates had re
* treated into their neighbours

porch; there he was
in,
he
standing, and when bidden
to
...
come refused.
"
go
How strange said Agathon, you must
"
'
bidding him, and by means let him go. no

on
M' But this Aristodemus forbade: No, said he,

.
.
let him alone;

he
habit has. Occasionally
it
is
a
Sohe
the turns aside, anywhere random, and there
at
in
be
instands.He will here presently, expect.

is
not disturb him; let him be.

I
do
...
Very well then, said Agathon, as you judge

he
best. Come, boys, the servants,

#
to
called
...
serve the feast for the rest of us. You are to set
'on
no
just whatever you please, now that you have
*one direct you
to
method have never tried

(a
}*before). To-day you are imagine that

to
and
I
on
the company here have come your invitation:

all
#
look after us, and earn our compliments.

so
s
said, they
all
he
Thereupon, began dinner, but

..Socrates did not arrive; and though Agathon ever
go
and anon gave orders that they should and fetch

"
"him, my friend would not allow

he
it.
When did
I'ome, was after what, for him, was
no
great delay,
it
p's they were only about half-way through dinner.

be
Then Agathon, who happened sitting alone

to
#
#&n the lowest place, said: Here, Socrates, come

by
by
contact with you may have

'it
so
me, that
I
W
'ome benefit from that piece wisdom that occurred

of
the porch. Clearly you have made

0
in
you there
to
This clause probably an aside" his guests.

to
is
*
91
PLATO
Tpo6%pots. 66Aov yap 6tt mpes air kai ys'

o yp dv Tpdate.orms.
Kai Tv Xkptm kaieoffat kat eitely
et rt
E.
xot, bdval, 'Ayddov,
v rotofirov
et
&
t
eis
&
Godbia, diot Tob TAmpegrpov Tv kevtep
||
* a
to W
e/
C
e
5
5
/
*
6
.
fety
judov, dy dittueffa dAAAaov, otep #||
T
Tais klguy #6op bud Tob ptov peov
k
Ti
||
oft
els
TAmpeoTpas Tv kevotpav. yap
el
xet kai Gopia, ToMAoi Tuual thy Tapa Nils
i
Ekatk\low oiual yp Tapa Got ToMAjs Kili
ue
kaAs Godias TAmpo6.jeoffat. uv yap #/5
dhavan Tus dy, ein kai dubio Bntijouos, dign']."
kai ToMA'v n'.
on
Mautpd

Te
vap oboa,
i
Tapd got vov vtos ojra, off."

ye
xovga,
Tp
&#Aaple kai khavi's yvero uprw!"
v
finv
Tv EAA#vav TAov Touguvpious.
is
'Ay'
et,
A
Y'8ptoti's &m, Xkpates,

6
ral Tabra uv kai dAyov joirepov 8waukagd:
'' |l ' |
Tepi Tis Gobias, Bukaoti Ypdugo
at
yd
Te
Kai
T Atovaq, wby Tps Betavoy Tpra Tp"
To
B
Merd Tabra, bm, karakAlvvros
on
176 ro5
Kprows kai Bettvijaavros kai Tv dAAov,
bs Totijo agdal kal &gavras Tv 6edy
Te
86s K.
T o
Cl
&
TAAa volutgueva Tpteoffat 7ps rv Tw!'

Tv offv IIavgaviav bn Ayov Totowrov Tu-j
Eiev,
's
karpxe", dropes, $dval, Tiva Tp
5
yd) gev ov Myo July,

fiota Twueffa;
'll
"We
r
"
#r. Tavu XaAets xo #76 rob X6s mrov

7.
8&
dvalvXs Tavs, oluo.

kal vuy
at
8op
: *
ToMAows: Tapiore Yap X6s' akoweto.6e off,

$.
s pqota Tivoluev.
&v
TpT9
B
(h
Tv ov 'Aptoro havn eitely, Tobro ptro

92
SYMPOSIUM
" , , the discovery and got hold of

have come away before.
Then Socrates sat down, andHow fine it would
.
it; for you would not
76% be, Agathon, he said, if

wisdom were a sort of
thing that could flow out
of
of
us
the one
iro
who
is
by
* fuller into him who emptier, our mere contact
a
is
with each other, water will flow through wool from
as
# the fuller cup into the emptier.
If
such indeed
is
on
the case with wisdom, set great value my
be a
I
* yi
sitting you
to
next look filled with excellent

to
I
-
:
y
you. My own
of
0\; wisdom drawn
in
out
"'
abundance
'' but meagre, disputable dream; but

as
as
is
a
bright and expansive, the other day
as
yours
it is
we
"... saw shining forth from your youth, strong and

'''
more than thirty thousand

of
splendid, the eyes

in
T0% Greeks.
said Agathon.
!
You rude mocker, Socrates

P.
go
A little later
on
on
you and shall
to
law this
I
'matter our wisdom, and Dionysus shall be our

of
your
w S.
be
judge. For the present, let the dinner

first concern.
:
:* After this, seems, when Socrates had taken his

it
place and had dined with the rest, they made

#
the god and forth,

so
libation and sang

to
\) chant
a
# custom bids, till they betook them drinking.

to
'
"...Then Pausanias opened conversation after this

a
Well, gentlemen, drinking

of
manner: what mode

"*
best? For my part, tell the truth, am

us
of to
will suit
I
very poor form yesterday's bout,

in
as
result
il,v0
claim little relief; so, believe, with

it
is
and
a
I
you, for you were yesterday's party:

us so
of
at
er
most
*
drinking would suit

of
what method
'best.
,
on
this Aristophanes observed Now that,

:
!

-
93
PLATO
Xeyeis, c5 YLavaavia, ro rravrl rporno TrapaoKevd-

aaodai paorcDvrjv nva rrjs TToaeios' Kal yap auro's
eip.1 T(x>v
x@ts fSef}aTrnop.ev<Dv .
AKOvaavra ovv avrcov ecf>7] 'Epvlp,axov top

'AKOvp,evov, TH KaXcos, <f>dvai, Xeyere. /cat eri
evos Seofiai vp,a>v aKovoai, Trios eêi irpos to
eppcoodai rrlveiv 'Ayddatv.
Ov8ap.u>s, <f>dvai, ov8' avros eppcD/j.au.
C "Eppaiov av eiT] rjp,lv, i) 8' os, ws eoiKev, i/xol
re ko.1 Api<yTo8rjfj,cp Kal <S>al8pw Kal rolcrSe, el
vp.ets ot Swarcoraroi rrlveiv vw aTTeiprJKare-
rjp.els p.ev ydp del dpvvaroi. YiWKpdrrj o iaipu>
Xoyov iKavos ydp Kal dp,<j>6repa, war' eiâpKeoei
avrw oirorep av Troicjfiev. eTreiSr) oSv p,ov So/cet
ovSels rtov napovrcov Trpodvp,cos e%eiv Trpos to
ttoXvv rrlveiv olvov, loots av eyd> irepl rod /xedv-
OKeodai olov eon rdXrjOrj Xeyatv -qrrov av etrjv
drjorjs. yap rovro ye otp.ai KardSrjXov
8r)
ep,ol
D yeyovevai k rfjs larpiKrjs, on âXenov rots av-
dpcimois p,edrj earl' Kal ovre avros Ikojv etvat
r)
ixoppoi e8eX~qoa<,p,i av Tnelv ovre dXXrj <f)dvai
Âvppwovaiov eywye ooi elwda -rreldeoOai dXXcos
,
re Kal drr' av irepl larpiKrjs Xeyr/s' vvv 8', av &

povXevwvrai, Kal Xonrol. ravra aKovaav-
8ry
ol
raj avyxcopeiv -rrdvras p*r) 8ia p,edrjs TroirjoaoQat

E
rrjv ev ru> rrapovn ovvovaiav, aXX ovrco mvovras

TTpOS 7)8oV7]V.
94
SYMPOSIUM
Pausanias, is a good suggestion of yours, that we
make a point of consulting our comfort in our cups :

for I myself am one of those who got such a soaking
'
yesterday."
When Eryximachus, son of Acumenus, heard this ;
" "
You are quite right, sirs," he said ; and there is
yet one other question on which I request your
opinion, as to what sort of condition Agathon finds
himself in fpr drinking."
"
No, no," said Agathon, " I am not in good
condition for it either."
"
It would be a piece of luck for us, I take it,"
the other went on,
" that is, for me, Aristodemus,
Phaedrus, and our friends here, if you who are the
stoutest drinkers are now feeling exhausted. We, of
course, are known weaklings. Socrates I do not count
in the matter : he is fit either way, and will be content
. with whichever choice we make. Now as it appears
that nobody here present is eager for copious
. draughts, perhaps it will be the less irksome to you
if I speak of intoxjcation, and tell you truly what it
is. The practice of medicine, I find, has made this
clear to me that drunkenness is harmful to mankind ;
and neither would I myself agree, if I could help it,
to an excess of drinking, nor would I recommend it
to another, especially when his head is still heavy
from a bout of the day before."
Here Phaedrus of Myrrhinus interrupted him,
"
saying : Why, you know I always obey you,
above all in medical matters ; and so now will the
rest of us, if they are well advised." Then all of
them, on hearing this, consented not to make
their present meeting a tipsy affair, but to drink
just as it might serve their pleasure.
95
PLATO
'E7rei8^ Tolvvv, </)dvai tov 'Epufi/xaôv,

tovto pev SsSoktcu, TrLveiv oodv dv eKaoTOS f3ov-
Xr/rai, eTnp.va.yKes he prjSev etvai, to peTa tovto
elcrrjyovpai rr)v (lev dpri eloeXdovoav avXrjTpiSa
Xalpeiv eav, avXovoav eavrf\ rj av povXrjrai tolls
yvvail rats evoov, r)pas Se Sta Xoycov dXXrjXoLS
avveZvai to Trqpepov Kal St olcuv Xoycov, el /3ov-
Xecrde, eOeXco vp.lv elcrqyrjoaod ai.
Oavat irdvras Kal fiovXeodai, Kal KeXeveiv
St)
177
avrov elorjyeiodat,. threw ovv tov 'Epvîpaôv
OTt 'H pev poi dpyjr] tov Xoyov earl Kara, rrfv
EvpimBov MeXaviTTTrrjv ov yap epos pvOos, dXXa
6
OaiSpou ToiJSe, ov peXXco Xeyeiv. $>aZ8pos yo.p
eKaaroTe irpos pe dyavaKTcbv Xeyet Ov Seivdv,
'^pv^tpaê dXXois pev ncri decov vpvovs
d>
(fyt]aiv,
,
/ecu 7raitova? etvai vtto twv ttoltjtujv TreTroi7)p.e-

VOVS, TU> tt]Xikovtco ovti Kal
8k "EjOCOTt, tooovtoj
9ea>, pr]8e eva TTCOTrore tooovtcov yeyovoTWV ttolt)-
B
tcov TreTroi.r)Kevat. prjhev eyKcopiov el

Se jSouAei
aS oKeipaadai tovs XPrlcn'0VS oofaords, 'Hpa-
KXeovs pev Kal dXXcuv erralvovs KaTaXoyd8r)v avy-
worrep TlpodiKOS' Kal tovto
jSeATioroy
6
ypd<f>ew,
pev 7*Jttov Kal davpaorov dXX' eyioye rjSrj tivI
,
evervxpv j8tj8Ai'ti>, ev co evrjoav dXes errawov dav-

pdoiov e\ovTes irpos cbcf>eXeiav, Kal dXXa Toiavra,
ovx"d iSoi? dv eyKeKOjpiaopeva' to oSv toiovtcov
C
pev rrepi TroXXr)v ottovotjv Trovfjoaodai, "Epa>Ta Se

pyjoeva ttco avOpoJrroov reToXprjKevai els TavTrjvl
Eurip. fr. 488 fivdos, d\V i/xrjs fjLrjrpbs Tripa,

1
odic tfibs
" not mine the
6
tale my mother taught me."

it
;
The moralizing sophist, famous for his parable of The

2
96
SYMPOSIUM
"
Since it has been resolved, then," said Eryxi-
"
machus, that we are to drink only so much as
each desires, with no constraint on any, I next
propose that the flute-girl who came in just now
be dismissed : let her pipe to herself or, if she likes,
to the women-folk within, but let us seek our enter
tainment to-day in conversation. I am ready, if you
so desire, to suggest what sort of discussion it should
be."
Eryximachus proposes the Theme of Love

They all said they did so desire, and bade him
make his proposal. So Eryximachus proceeded :
"
The beginning of what I have to say is in the words
' '
of Euripides' Melanippe, for not mine the tale 1
that I intend to tell ; it comes from Phaedrus here.
He is constantly complaining to me and saying,
)
Is it not a curious thing, Eryximachus, that while
other gods have hymns and psalms indited in their
> honour by the poets, the god of Love, so ancient
and so great, has had no song of praise composed
for him by a single one of all the many poets that
ever have been ? And again, pray consider our
worthy professors, and the eulogies they frame
of Hercules and others in prose, for example,
the excellent Prodicus.2 This indeed is not so
surprising ; but I recollect coming across a book by
somebody, in which I found Salt superbly lauded
for its usefulness, and many more such matters I
could show you celebrated there. To think of all
this bustle about such trifles, and not a single man
ever essaying till this day to make a fitting hymn
Choice of Heracles (Xen. Mem. ii. 1. 21), where the appeal

, of Virtue prevails over that of Vice.
vol. v h 97
PLATO
rrjv qp.epav di(t>s VfivijaaL- dXX' ovrws ^/acAtjtcu
ravra
8tj
tooovtos deos. fxoi So/cei ev Xeyeiv
<$>ai8pos. eyo) ovva/xa p,ev rovro}
emdvp.a>
epavov eloeveyKetv Kal )(aploaoOai, a/xa ev t<o
8'
napovri Trpenov (jloi SoKel etvai rjp.lv rots Ttapovai
Koaprjoai tov deov. ovv owSo/cei kcll vfj.iv,
el
J)
yivoir av ij/uv ev Xoyois iKavrj StarpijS^- So/cei

yap /xoi xpr)vai eKaorov rjp.6jv Xoyov eareZv eiraivov
"EpajTO? em Seîa (lis av ovvqrai Ka.XXi.arov, ap-
%eiv 8e Qaiopov Trpcorov, e7Tiorj koI Trpcoros Kara-
Keirai Kal earw a/xa TTarr/p tov Xoyov.
OuSei's croi, 'Epvlp.a)(e, <f>dvai tov Zat/epdV^,
u>
evavria ifrqîelrai. ovre ydp av irov eycj drro-

os ovSev emoraadai aXXord
E
<f>rjoai.p.i,
Tf
<f>r)p.i
epojTiKa, ovre ttov 'AydOojv Kal Havaavias, ovoe

/j.rjv 'ApiOT0(f>dvr)s, a> nepl Aiovvarov Kal 'A<f>po-
8lrr)v Trdoa oiaTpiBrf, ot>8e aAAo? ouSei? rovriovl
rj
tov eyw opw. Kalroi ovk loov ylyverai rfpuv

e
rols vardrois KaraKeip.evois' dXX' edv ol irpoo-Qev

LKavais Kal koXws elnwoiv, eâpKeoei tj/juv. aAAa
TVXJI dyadfj Karapêrw OatSpo? Kal eyKwp.iat,erw
tov "E/>aira.
8fj
Ta)Ta Kal ol dXXoi irdvres apa avve<f>aodv

178 re Kal eKeXevov direp HwKpdrrjS . Ttdvrwv [xev
6
ovv a e/caoTO? ehrev, ovre -ndvv 'Apt,o~r68r)iJ,os

6
ep.ep.vqro ovr av eyw a eKelvos eXeye iravra-

a 8k (tdXiora Kal Sv eSofe /xoi dt,op,vT)p,6vevrov,
rovrwv vp.lv epto eKaorov tov Xoyov.
Ylpwrov tiev ydp, oio-nep Xeyw, e&iq Q>al8pov
ap(;dp.evov evdev8e rro9ev Xeyeiv, art. p,eyas 0e6s
98
SYMPOSIUM
, to Love ! great a god, and so neglected !
So
Now I think Phaedrus's protest a very proper one.
Accordingly I am not only desirous of obliging him
with a contribution of my own, but I also pronounce
the present to be a fitting occasion for us here
assembled to honour the god. So if you on your
part approve, we might pass the time well enough
in discourses ; for my opinion is that we ought each
of us to make a speech in turn, from left to right,
praising Love as beautifully as he can. Phaedrus
shall open first ; for he has the topmost place at
table, and besides is father of our debate."
" "
No one, Eryximachus," said Socrates, will vote
against you : I do not see how I could myself decline,
when I set up to understand nothing but love-matters ;
nor could Agathon and Pausanias either, nor yet
Aristophanes, who divides his time between Dionysus
*
and Aphrodite ; nor could any other of the persons
I see before me. To be sure, we who sit at the
I bottom do not get a fair chance : but if the earlier
speakers rise nobly to the occasion, we shall be quite
content. So now let Phaedrus, with our best wishes,
make a beginning and give us a eulogy of Love/'
To this they assented one and all, bidding "him
do as Socrates said. Now the entire speech in
each case was beyond Aristodemus's rectoileetion,
and so too the whole of what he told me Its, beyond
mine : but those parts which, on account also of the
speakers, I deemed most memorable, I w^ tell you
successively as they were delivered.
The Speech of Phaedrus

First then, I
said, he told me that the speech
as
of Phaedrus began with points of this sort that
99
PLATO
eiTj o Epws davfiaoros ev dvBpdrnois re Kal

ko.1
Oeols, iroXXaxfj (lev Kal dXXr), ovx rjKtora 8e
B Kara rrjv yeveow. to yap ev rails Trpeofivrovrov
elvai rov 9e6v rlpiov, rj 8' os' reKp.-qpi.ov he rov-
rov yovrjs yap "Epwros ovr elalv ovre Xeyovrat
in' ovSevos ovre Ihicbrov ovre ironyrov, aAA'
'Hai'oSos Trpunov pev xdos <f>7)arl yeveaOai,
avrap eneira
Tat' evpvarepvos, Trdvraiv ehos da<f>aXes aiei,
rjh
Epos.
he Kal
'
'Haio8a> A.KOvoLXea>s opoXoyel'1 <f>T)ol ftera.

to xdos hvo rovrco yeveadai, Trjv re Kal "Epa>ra.
Happevlhrfs he rr)v Yeveaw Xeyei
wptoTiurov pev "Kpcura 6e<hv prjrlaaro Ttdvruiv.

Ovrco TToWaxoOev op.oXoyelrai "Epoj? ev rois
C
npeofivraros eivat. TTpeofivraros he a>v p.eyL-

otojv ayaQwv 7jp.lv airios eorw. ov yap eycoy'
eâj elnelv o ri pelt,6v eoriv dya96v evdvs vea>
ovti epaorrjs ^pâros K0LL epaorTj naihiKa. o
i)
yap XP7) dv8pcl>7Tois rjyeloOai Travros rov filov tois

p,eXXovoi. koXcos fiuLoecrdai, tovto ovre ovyyeveia
o"a re epvnoielv ovra> KaXaJs ovre ripal ovre ttXov-
rl
hrj
ros ovr' dXXo ovhev he

D
co? epais. Xeyai

tovto; tt)v em p.ev toIs aloxpols aloxvvrjv, im
he toIs KaXols <f>iXori.p.iav ov yap eariv avev tov-
tu>v ovre ttoXiv Ihuurrjv p.eyaXa Kal KaXd
ovre
epya eepyd,eo6ai. (fyrjp.1 roivvv eyoj avhpa ootis
epa, ei ri aloxpov iroiwv KardhrjXos yiyvoiro
rj
"Bai6Sip ofu>\oyet (post irivruv) hue transp. Schanz.

1
.
.
.
100
SYMPOSIUM
Love was a great god, among men and gods a
marvel ; and this appeared in many ways, but
"
notably in his birth. Of the most venerable are
the honours of this god, and the proof of it is this :
parents of Love there are none, nor are any recorded

in either prose or verse. Hesiod says that Chaos
came first into being
and thereafter rose
Broad-breasted Earth, sure seat of all for aye,
And Love.1
Acusilaus 2 also agrees with Hesiod, saying that after
Chaos were born these two, Earth and Love. Par-
'
menides says of Birth that she invented Love
before all other gods.' 3
"
Thus Love is by various authorities allowed to
be of most venerable standing ; and as most vener
able, he is the cause of all our highest blessings. I
for my part am at a loss to say what greater blessing
a man can have in earliest youth than an honourable
lover, or a lover than an honourable favourite. \ For
the guiding principle we should choose for all our
days, if we are minded to live a comely life, cannot
be acquired either by kinship or office or wealth
or anything so well as by Love. What shall I call
this power ? The shame that we feel for shamefin
things, and ambition for what is noble ; without
which it is impossible for city or person to perform
any high and noble deeds. Let me then say that
a man in love, should he be detected in some shameful
act or in a cowardly submission to shameful treat-
1
Hesiod, Theog. 116 foil.
s
An Argive compiler of genealogies in the first part of
the fifth century B.C.
3
Parmen. fr. 132 ; Aristot. Met. i. 4, 984 b.
101
PLATO
Trdaxvvtto tov Si' dvavSplav fir) dfiwop,evos, out'

&v vtto Trarpos 6<j>0evTa ovtcos dXyfjcrai ovre vtto
eraipcov ovre vtt' dXXov ov&evds cos vtto TraiSiKcov.
E ravrov 8e tovto kcu tov epcofievov opcbfiev, ort
o~ia<j>epovTCos rovs epaords ala^werai, orav d<f>9fj
V CUOXpU) TlVl COV. 1 OW fJL7})(aV7J TIS yevoi/ro
coore ttoXw yeveadai arpaTOTreSov epaarcov re
r)
KCLI TTat,8lKCOV, OVK eOTW OTTCOS dv dp,lVOV Ol/OJ-
oeiav tt)v eavrcov r) dnexofievoi ttovtcov tcov al
ii'9 oxpdiv /ecu (f>iXoTip,ovfievot, rrpos dXXijXovs' kcu fia-
XPp.evoi y dv fier' dXXr)Xcov ol tolovtoi viKcoev dv
dXiyoi ovres, cos erros el-new, Trdvras dvdpcoTrovs-
ipedv yap dvr)p vtto TraiotKwv d(f>6fjvai r) Xnrdiv
rdîv orrXa aTTofiaXcbv t'Jttov dv otjttov oetjairo
r)
r) vtto TrdvTcov tcov dXXcov, #cai irpd tovtov redvd-
vai dv TroXXaKis eXono- Kal p.r)v eyKaraXnTeiv ye
ra TraiSiKa r) fir) fiorjdrjoai KivSvvevovTi, ovSels
ovrco ovriva ovk dv avTos 6 "Epcos evOeov
KaKOS
TTOirjoeLe Trpos dperrjv, cocrd bfioiov ewcu rip api-
"
B or co cf>vaei. Kal drexveos, o e$r) "Ofirjpos, fievos
"
efirrvevaai eviois tcov r/pcocov rov deov, tovto
6 "Epws tols epcooi Trape)(ei yiyvop.evov -nap
airov.
Kcu firjv VTTepaTTodvr)OKei.v ye fiovoi ideXovoiv
ol epcovTes, ov fiovov Sri dvBpes, dXXa Kal
al yvvaiKes. tovtov oe Kal r) IleAiou dvydrr/p
"
AXKrjams iKavr)v fiaprvplav TTapeêTai virep rovSe
tov Xoyov els tovs "EXXrjvas, edeXrfoaoa fiovt]
vrrep tov avrfjs dvSpds diroOaveiv, ovtcov avrco
102
SYMPOSIUM
ment at another's hands, would not feel half so '
much distress at anyone observing it, whether

father or comrade or anyone in the world, as when
his favourite did ; and in the selfsame way we see
how the beloved is especially ashamed before his
lovers when he is observed to be about some shameful
business. So that if we could somewise contrive to
have a city or an army composed of lovers and their
favourites,1 they could not be better citizens of
their country than by thus refraining from all that
is base in a mutual rivalry for honour ; and such
men as these, when fighting side by side, one might
almost consider able to make even a little band
victorious over all the world.i For a man in love7
would surely choose to have afl the rest of the host!
rather than his favourite see him forsaking his station]
or flinging away his arms ; sooner than this, hej
i would prefer to die many deaths : while, as for
leaving his favourite in the lurch, or not succouring
i him in his peril, no man is such a craven that Love's
own influence cannot inspire him with a valour
that makes him equal to the bravest born ; and
' '
without doubt what Homer calls a fury inspired 2
by a god in certain heroes is the effect produced on
lovers by Love's peculiar power. .
"
Furthermore , only,._auch as are in love, will^W/
msni_4o_die-Jiar_otliia ; not merely menwill do \
it, but women too. Sufficient witness is borne to
this statement before the people of Greece by
Alcestis, daughter of Pelias, who alone was willing
to die for her husband, though he had both father
1
There was such a " sacred band
" at Thebes,
(iepds A6xs)
which distinguished itself at Leuctra (371 B.C.).
1
Homer, //. x. 482, xv. 262.
103
PLATO
C narpos re Kou firjTpos' ovs eKelvr- rooovrov vrtep-

efidXero rfj <f>t,Xla Sid rov epcora, aiare dwoSeiâi
avrovs dXXorplovs ovras rep vlei Kal oVdîan
fj.ovov irpoorjKovras' Kai rovr epyaaafievr] ro ep-
yov ovtco KaXov e8oev ipya.o~a.o6ai ov p.6vov av-
Opdtmois dAAd Kal Oeols, ware noXXdiv 7roAAd Kal
naiv ehoaav
8~j
/caAa ipyaoa/xevcDV evapiOp,rjrois
rovro yepas ol Beoi, "Ai8ov dvetvat, rrdXiv rrjv
i
dAAd Ti)v eKelvr/s dvelaav dyaodevres rep
ifivxtfvj
epyco- ovrco Kal deol ttjv rrepl rov epcora orrovS-jv
D
re Kal dperrjv [idXiora rificooiv. 'Op<j>ea Se rov

"AiSou, <f>dafj.a Sei-
e
Oldypov dreXfj dTTe-rp,ifiav
avres ryjs yvvaiKOS e<f>' rjv fJKev, avrrjv Se ov
Sovres, on /xaA0a/a'ecr0ai e'SoVei, are cbv Kidap-
cpSos, Kal ov roA/xac eveKa rov epcoros dnoOv-j-
OKeiv utenrep "AAktjoti?, dAAd Siapirj-âvaadai t,u>v
eioxeVai els "AiSou. roiydproL Sid ravra Si'ktjv
avrcp eTTedeoav, Kal etToLrjoav rov ddvarov avrov
vtto yvvaiKcov yeveadai, cooTrep'AîAAea tov
E
oi>x
rrjs en8os vlov irlfir/crav Kal eis fiaKaptov vr\-
aovs dTrenefu/jav, Sri rreirvafjievos irapd rrjs \i-r\-
rpos cos d-rrodavolro drroKreivas E/cro/sa, p.7] ano-
Kreivas Se rovrov oi/caS-
yrjpaios reXevrtfaoi,
eXOchv
eroXjxrjoev eXeoOai, fiorjdrjoas rut epq.orfj Uarpo-

80 kXo> Kal nfitoprjoas ov fiovov VTrepairodaveiv dAAd
\
Kal eTTa-troOavetv rereXevrr/Kon- odev Kal vrrep-

817
ayaaBevres ol deol oia<f>ep6vra>s avrov erlfitjoav,

on rov epaorrjv ovrco Trepl ttoXXov erroielro. Ai
104
SYMPOSIUM
and mother. So high did her love exalt her over
them in kindness, that they were proved alien to
their son and but nominal relations ; and when she
achieved this deed, it was judged so noble by gods
as well as men that, although among all the many
doers of noble deeds they are few and soon counted
to whom the gods have granted the privilege of
having their souls sent up again from Hades, hers
they thus restored in admiration' of her act. In
this manner even the gods give special honour to
zeal and courage in concerns of love. But Orpheus,
son of Oeagrus, they sent back with failure from
Hades, showing him only a wraith of the woman
for whom he came ; her real self they would not
bestow, for he was accounted to have gone upon
a coward's quest, too like the minstrel that he was,
and to have lacked the spirit to die as Alcestis did
for the sake of love, when he contrived the means of
entering Hades alive. Wherefore they laid upon
him the penalty he deserved, and caused him to
meet his death at the hands of women : whereas
Achilles, son of Thetis, they honoured and sent to
his place in the Isles of the Blest,1 because having
learnt from his mother that he would die as surely
as he slew Hector,2 but if he slew him not, would
return home and end his days an aged man, he
bravely chose to go and rescue his lover Patroclus,
avenged him, and sought death not merely in his
behalf but in haste to be joined with- him whom
death had taken. For this the gods so highly
admired him that they gave him distinguished
honour, since he set so great a value on his lover.
1 Pindar, 01. ii. 78 foil. (Homer, Od. xi. 467 foil., places
him in Hades). a
Homer, 11. xviii. 96.
105
PLATO
a\vXos Se <f>Xvapel <f>daKcov 'A^tAAe'a YlarpoKXov

os koXXlcov ov jmovov HarpoKXov dAAa
r)v
epdv,
/cat 'rcov r/pcocov anavrcov, kcli en ayeveios, erreira.
vecorepps ttoXv, cos <f>7)oiv "Opvqpos. dAAa. yap rco
dvn /zdAiora ravrr/v rr)v dperrjv ol rc-
B
p,ev Oeol
utom rrjv rrepl rov epoora, p,aXXov /zeVroi 6av/j.d-
t,ovoi /cat dyavrat Kal ev ttoiovoiv, orav epoo-
6
uevos rov epaorrjv ayarra, orav o epaarr/s rd.
rj
7rat8t/cd. deidrepov yap ipaarr)s rraioiKCov evdeos
yap ear i. hid ravra Kal rov 'A^tAAea rrjs 'AX-
/oyariSo? fidXXov enp,rjaav, els p.aKapcov vr]aovs
aTTonep.ipavres
.
Ovrco or) eycoye <f>rjp.r "Epcora Oetov /cat rrpe-

afivrarov Kal npiioorarov /cat Kvpiwrarov elvai els
dperfjs /cat ev8aip.ovias Krrjaiv dvdpoJTrois Kal
d>cri /cat reXevrriaaaiv .
OatSpov (iev roiovrov nva Xoyov e<f>r) elirelv,

C
fierd Se OatSpov dXXovs nvds elvai, cbv ov

rrdvv BiepLvrjfiovevev ovs rrapeis rov Havaaviov
elirelv avrdv on Ov koXcos
S'
Xoyov 8t.r)yelro.
/ioi So/cei, OaiSpe, TrpofiefiXfjadai Xoyos,
ai
rjp.lv
6
rd airXws ovrcos TTaprjyyeXdat, eyKcouidêiv "Epcora.

yap els "Epais, KaXcos av efê- vw he
"fy>
el
p.ev
ov yap ear w els' p.r) ovros Se evds dpdorepov eo-ri
D rrporepov rrpopprjdfjvai ottoIov Set ewaivelv. eyu>
ovv 7rei.pdaop.ai rovro errhvppdooaaaOai, rrpGyrov
p.ev"Epcora <j>pdaai ov Set eiraivetv, erreira err-
aweaai aminos rov 8eov. rravres yap toy/ev on ovk
106
SYMPOSIUM
And Aeschylus1 talks nonsense when he says that
it was Achilles who was in love with Patroclus ; for he
excelled in beauty not Patroclus alone but assuredly
all the other heroes, being still beardless and,- more
over, much the younger, by Homer's account.? For in
truth there is no sort of valour more respected by the
gods than this which comes of love ; yet they are even
more admiring and delighted and beneficent when /
the beloved is fond of his lover than when the lover I
is fond of his favourite ; since a lover, filled as heTTi if
is with a god, surpasses his favourite in divinity. / I
This is the reason why they honoured Achilles above-^
Alcestis, giving him his abode in the Isles of the Blest.
"
So there is my description of Love that he is
the most venerable and valuable of the gods, and
that he has sovereign power to provide all virtue
and happiness for men whether living or departed." J
"^
The Speech of Pausanias

Such in the main was Phaedrus' speech as re
ported to me. It was followed by several others,
which my friend could not recollect at all clearly ;
so he passed them over and related that of Pausanias,
"
which ran as follows : I do not consider, Phaedrus,
our plan of speaking a good one, if the rule is simply
that we are to make eulogies of Love. If Love were
only one, it would be right ; but, you see, he is not
one, and this being the case, it would be more correct
to have it previously announced what sort we ought
to praise. Now this defect I will endeavour to
amend, and will first decide on a Love who deserves
our praise, and then will praise him in terms worthy
of his godhead. We are all aware that there is no
1
Aesch. Myrm.fr. 135-136. 8
Homer, II. xi. 786.
107
PLATO
ctt iv dvev "Epcoros 'A^poSlrrj. fitds (ikv ovv
ovorjs ety av i]v apcus' 7ret oe or) ovo earov, ovo
avayKT) /cat hipcore ewai. ttcos o ov ovo too aea ;
7] ftev ye ttov TTpeo^vrepa Kal dprffoip Ovpavov
fjv
dvydrrjp, Kal Ovpavlav enovop,dt,op.ev Se
Si)
t)
vecorepa Aid? Kal Aicbvrjs, IlavSii/iov KaXov-
fjv
St)
Kal "Epoora tov p,kv rfj irepq.
St)
pev. dvayKatov
E
ovvepyov Hdv8rjp,ov opQws KaXeladai, tov Se

Ovpa.vi.ov. e-naweiv p,ev ovv Set TrdvTas deovs, a.
ovv eKarepos neipareov eliretv. irdaa

S
etArê
181 ydp irpaîs <Lo' eêr ciutt) i(f>' eavrrjs Ttparro-
ovre KaXrj ovre aloxpd. olov vvv T/juet?
o
p.ev7]
TTOLovp,ev, mveiv aSetv SiaXeyeardai, ovk eort

fj
fj
fj
tovtcov avro KaXov ovSev, dXX' ev rfj Trpdei, cbs
av Trpaxdfj, toiovtov oW/Sti- koXcos p.ev yap npar-

Top,evov Kal opdoos koXov yiyverai, p,rj opOdbs Se
koL to epav Kal
St)
alo~xpdv. ovroo "E/)a>s ov 7rds

6
cort KaXos ouSe aws eyKcop,ideodai, dXX'
6
koXws irpoTpencov epav.
'0 rfjs
'
p,ev oSv TlavStfpôv A</>po8iT-qs cbs
irdvor)p,6s eort /cat eepydeTai o Tt av

B
dXrjOcos
tvxW Ka'- ^T? eo~TW ov ol (pavXoi tcov avdpooTrcov

epdjoiv. ipwoi Se ol toioutoi npwTov fxev ovx
fjTTOV ywaiKcov TraLocov, eVetTa epcoai
cov /cat
fj
tcov oo)p.dra)v p.aXXov tcov Jivxojv, eVeiTa cbs ay

fj
Supaiirai dvorjTOTaTWV, Ttpos to hianpdâadai

p,6vov fSXenovTes dp,eXovvTes Se tov koXcos
fj
yLtTj.
,
108
SYMPOSIUM
Aphrodite or Love-passion without a Love. True, if

that goddess were one, then Love would be one :
but since there are two of her, there must needs be
two Loves also. Does anyone doubt that she is
double ? Surely there is the elder, of no mother
born, but daughter of Heaven, whence we name her
Heavenly ; * while the younger was the child of
Zeus and Dione, and her we call Popular.2 It
follows then that of the two Loves also the one ought
to be called Popular, as fellow-worker with the one
of those goddesses, and the other Heavenly. All
gods, of course, ought to be praised : but none the
less I must try to describe the faculties of each of
these two. For of every action it may be observed
that as acted by itself it is neither noble nor base.
For instance,dn our conduct at this moment, whether
we drink Or sing or converse, none of these things
is noble in itself ; each only turns out to be such in
the doing, as the manner of doing it may be. For
when the doing of it is noble and right, the thing
itself becomes noble ; when wrong, it becomes base.
So also it is with loving, and Love is not in every case
noble or worthy of celebration, but only when he
impels us to love in a noble manner.
"
Now the Love that belongs to the Popular
Aphrodite is in very truth popular and does his
work at haphazard : this is the Love we see in the,
meaner sort of men ; who, in the first place, loveP*
women as well as boys ; secondly, where they love,
they are set on the body more than the soul ; and
thirdly, they choose the most witless people they K
can find, since they look merely to the accomplish
ment and care not if the manner be noble or no.
1 Herod, i. 105, 131 ; Pausan. i. 146. 2
Pausan. i. 22. 3.
PLATO
tl
av rv^coai, rovro
(jvfxâivei avrois, o
Si)
bdev
npdrrew, 6p.oicos p.ev dyadov, 6p.oicos e rovvav-
Ttov. ear yap Kal amo rrjs deov vecorepas re
C
i
ovorjs ttoXv rrjs erepas, /ecu fiereôvaiqs ev rfj
T)
yeveaei Kal drjXeos Kal dppevos. oe rrjs Ovpa-
6
vias Trpcorov p.ev ov p,erexovo~>]s drjXeos dXX' dp
pevos p.6vov [/ecu eoriv ovros o rcov rralocov epcos'Y
erreira rrpeofivrepas vfipecos dfxoipov odev or) irrl
,
ro dppev rpenovrai ot e/c rovrov rov epcoros em-
ttvoi, ro cpvoei eppcofxeveorepov /ecu vow p.aXXov e)(ov
dyancovres. Kal, ns dv yvolt] Kal ev avrfj rfj
Traioepaoria rovs eiXiKpivcos vtto rovrov rov epco-
ros cbpprjp.evovs' ov yap epctioi nalocov, dXX' errei-
D
odv rj8rj dpxcovrai vovv taxeiv rovro he TrXr)oid,et.

rep yeveidoKeiv. rrapeoKevaap-evoi yap, olp.ai,
elalv ol ivrevOev dpxpp.evoL ipdv cos rov filov
drravra ovveaop.evoi Kal Kouvfj ovp.fiicoa6iJ.evoi,
dXX' ovk iârrarrjaavres ev dcf>poavvrj Xafiovres
,
cbs veov, KarayeXdaavres olj(r}creadai erf aXXov

dnorpexovres XPW ê *a' vop.ov elvat p,r) ipdv
"rralocov, Iva p,r) els dSrjXov TroXXr) arrovhr) dv-
E
qXiOKero' ro yap rcov rraiocov reXos dorjXov ot re-

Xevrd /ca/a'a? Kal dperfjs tfivxrjs re nepi Kal aco-
p.aros. ol p.ev ovv ayadoi. rov vop.ov rovrov avrol
avrois eKovres rlOevrai, XPr)v ^ Ka' rovrovs rovs
rravor]p.ovs epaaras irpoaavayKa.t,eiv ro roiovrov,
182 warrep Kal rcov iXevOepcov yvvaiKcov rrpoaavayKa-
t,op.ev avrovs Ka6' ocrov ovvdp.e9a p,rj ipdv. ovroi
yap elaiv ol Kal ro ovetSos rreTroirjKores, wore rivas
roXp.av Xeyeiv cos alo~xp6v xapLêodai epacrrais'
Xeyovai oe els rovrovs drroflXeirovres opcovres
,
Kal Ipws seel. Schtttz.

1
.
.
.
110
SYMPOSIUM
Hence they find themselves doing everything at
haphazard, good or its opposite, without distinction :
for this Love proceeds from the goddess who is far ,,
the younger of the two, and who in her origin
partakes of both female and male. But the other
Love springs from the Heavenly goddess who, v
firstly, partakes not of the female but only of the
male ; and secondly, is the elder, untinged with ^
wantonness : wherefore those who are inspired by
this Love betake them to the male, in fondness for
what has the robuster nature and a larger share of
mind. Even in the passion for boys you may note
the way of those who are under the single incitement
of this Love : they love boys only when they begin
to acquire some mind a growth associated with
that of down on their chins. For I conceive that
those who begin to love them at this age are prepared
to be always with them and share all with them
as long as fife shall last : they will not take ad
vantage of a boy's green thoughtlessness to deceive
him and make a mock of him by running straight
off to another. Against this love of boys a law\
should have been enacted, to prevent the sad waste \ V*
of attentions paid to an object so uncertain : for ) *
who can tell where a boy will end at last, vicious or /
virtuous in body and soul ? Good men, however,/
voluntarily make this law for themselves, and it is
' '
a rule which those popular lovers ought to be
forced to obey, just as we force them, so far as we
can, to refrain from loving our freeborn women.
These are the persons responsible for the scandal
which prompts some to say it is a shame to gratify
one's lover : such are the cases they have in view,
ill
PLATO
avpfiawei airols, o ri av rvyixiai, tovtc
Sr)
odev
npdrrew, 6p,olcos dyaQov, 6p,olcos oe rovvav-
p.kv
rlov. ear yap Kal arro rijs 6eov vecorepas -re
C
i
ovar/s ttoXv rfjs erepas, xai perexovorjs ev ttj
rj
yeveaei Kal dfjXeos Kal dppevos. Se ttjs Ovpa-
6
vlas rrpu>TOv p,ev ov p.erexovaf]s drjXeos dAA' ap
pevos p,ovov \jcai ear xv ovros o rcov rraibcov epcos"]1
eneira TrpeafSvrepas vftpecos dpiolpov o6ev or) errl
,
ro dppev rperrovrai ol ex rovrov rov epcoros em-
rtvoi, ro <f>voet. eppcop\,evearepov Kal vovv puaXXov eôv
ayairuovres . Kal rt,s av yvolr) Kal ev avrfi rfj
naiSepaarla rovs elXiKpivws vtto rovrov rov epco-
ros cbpp,rjp,ivovs' ov ydp epipai. nalocov, dAA' errei-
D
oav rjorj dpxovrai vovv la\eiv rovro 8e TrXr]aia.Z,ei

ra> yeveidaKeiv. napeaKevaap,evoi yap, ot/xat,
elow oi evrevdev apxop-evoi epdv cos rov fStov
drravra avveaopevoi Kal Kouvfj avp,f$icoo6p.voi,
dAA' ovk etjanarrjoavres, ev d</>poovvrj Xapovres
cos veov, KarayeXaaavres oixrjaeadai err dXXov
dnorpexovres XPW ^ Ka^ vopuov etvai p.rj epdv
.
rraiocov, Iva p.r) els dorjXov rroXXrj arrovor) av-

E
rjXiaKero- ro yap rcov rraiocov reXos aorjXov ot re-

Xevrd KaKias Kal dperr)s ifivxrjs re rrepi Kal aco-
jxaros. ol p.ev ovv dyadoi rov vop.ov rovrov avroi
avrols eKovres rlQevrai, XPW ^ KaL Tovrovs rovs
wavorjpiovs epaords TrpooavayKaêiv ro rowvrov,
182 coarrep Kal rcov eXevQepcov H^rvaiKcov rrpoaavayKa-

t,op:evavrovs i<a9' oaov 'da p,r) epdv. ovrot
ydp elaiv ol Kal ro * jir/Kores, coare rivas
roA/xav Xeyeiv MipllêaQai epaarals'
Xeyovai he fTofiXerrovres, 6pcovn<
seel. Schiitz.
110
SYMPOSIUM
s^s?. -r%;isthtejey Jtsr^
f to
another fck of W bv ess to
dece^
I***toto obey
ts:
3S5r
!
>opW'tre,ves'
reS T*
>
as we
oue*Ti
*
4^
Jf
force
e
-
-
e
PLATO
avrujv
rr)v aKaipiav Kal doiKiav, errel ov hrjrrov
KOCTfJUCOS ye Kai VOpipOJS oriovv rrparropevov tfio-
yov av 8iKala>s cfrepoi.
Kat Kal rtepl rov epaira vop.os ev pev rats
S17
6
dXXais rroXeai vofjcrai pdoios- dirXws yap topiarai-
8'
evdd&e [Kal ev AaKeoaipovi]1 ttoikiXos. ev

6
HAiSi p.ev yap xrat ev Botcoroty, /cat ov p.r) ao<f>oi

B
Xeyeiv, dirXaJs vevopoderqrai koXov to xapil,eadai

epaarais, Kal ovk av tis eirroi ovre veos ovre rra-
Xaios cos aiaxpov, "va, otpai, p,rj TTpa.yp.aT eâxji
Xoycp rreipwpevoi rreideiv rovs veovs, are dSvvaroi
Xeyeiv rfjs oe 'laivias Kal dXXoOi TroXXaôv at-
a\pov vevopiorai, 0001 vtto flapfidpois oikovoi. roils
yap fiapfidpois Sid ras rvpawioas aloxpdv rovro
C
re Kal ye <f>iXoao(t>ia Kal <f>iXoyvp,vaaria' ov

17
r)
yap, olpai, avp<f>epei rois apxovai <j>povqp,ara

peydXa eyyiyveadai ra>v dpxopevoov, ovSe <j>iXias
loxvpas Kal Koivojvias, o piaXiara <$iAei rd re
8r)
dXXa navra Kai epojs eprroieiv. epycp Se rovro

o
epaOov Kal ol-evddSe rvpavvoi- yap 'Apiaro-

6
yeirovos epcos Kai 'AppoSiov <f>iXia fiefiaios

r)
yevopevq KareXvaev avrcov rr)v apxi)v. ovtojs ov

pev alaxpov ereBrj xapi,eodai epaarais, KaKia rwv
Keirai, roov pev dpxdvroiv rrXeoveîq,
D
Oepevuiv
rwv oe dpxopevojv dvavopiq.- oS Se koXov drrXws
evopiodr), td rr)v ratv 6ep.evojv rijs ifivx^s apylav.
evOdSe he rroXv rovrcov KaXXiov vevopx>derr]rai,
Kal orrep ehrov, ov pdSiov Karavorjaai.
'JLvdvprjdevn yap on Xeyerai KaXXiov to
Kai iv AaKcdalixovi seel. Winckelmann.

1
112
SYMPOSIUM
for they observe all their reckless and wrongful
doings ; and surely, whatsoever is done in an orderly
and lawful manner can never justly bring reproach.
" Further,
it is easy to note the rule with regard to
love in other cities : there it is laid down in simple
terms, while ours here is complicated. For in Elis
and Boeotia and where there is no skill in speech
they have simply" an ordinance that it is seemly
to gratify lovers, and no one whether young or old
will call it shameful, in order, I suppose, to save
themselves the trouble of trying what speech can
do to persuade the youths ; for they have no ability
for speaking. But in Ionia and many other regions
where they live under fbreign sway, it is counted a
disgrace. Foreigners hold this thing, and all train
ing in philosophy and sports, to be disgraceful,
because of their despotic government ; since, I
presume, it is not to the interest of their princes
to have lofty notions engendered in their subjects,
or any strong friendships and communions ; all of
which Love is pre-eminently apt to create. It is
a lesson that our despots learnt by. experience ;
for Aristogeiton's love and Harmodius's friendship
grew to be so steadfast that it wrecked their
power. Thus where it was held a disgrace-to
gratify one's lover, the tradition is due to the * evil
ways of those who made such a law that is, to
the encroachments of the rulers and to the cowardice
of the ruled. But where it was accepted as honour
able without any reserve, this was due to a sluggish
ness of mind in the law-makers. In our city we
have far better regulations, which, as I said, are
not so easily grasped.
"
Consider, for instance, our saying that it is more
vol. v i 113
PLATO
<f>aveptos ipav tov Xddpa, /cat p,dXiarTa tcov yev-

vaiorarcov /cat apioTcov, Kav aio^t'ou? aAAaw cool,
/cat on av r) TrapaKeXevais rq> epcovTi rrapd tt&v-
E tcov davpaoTf). ov\ cos rt ala\pov ttoiovvti, kcu
eXovTi Te KaXov So/cet elvcu /cat p,r) eAoVrt alaxpov,
/cat Trpos to imxeipew eXelv li~ovaiav 6 vop.os
SeScoKe tcu
epaarfj 6avp,aara epya epyaop,evip
enaiveiaOai, a ei rt? ToXp,cpr] iroielv aXX otlovv
183 8icokcov kcu l3ovX6p,evos 8ia-rrpdao9ai ttXtjv tovto
to, p,eyi<jra KapTroiT' av
[<f>t,Xooo(f>las] j1 6vel8r]- el
yap 7} xprfpara fiovXopievos Trapd tov Xa/Selv 7)
Q-PXh" ttpât TW* dXXrjv hvvap,iv ideXot. Troieiv
""]
oldrrep ol epaarral irpos rd 7rai8i/ca, t/cereia? xe

/cat dvTtjSoA^CTet? eV rat? SerJcreCTt iroLovpevoi, /cat
SpKovs opvvvTes, Kai Koip,~qaeis em dvpais, /cat
edeXovres SovXeias SovXevew olas ovo' av SovXos
oiSeis, ep.TTOoLt,oiTO dv p.rj irpdrretv ovtco tt)v
irpd^w /cat vtto cplXcov /cat vtto eydpcov, tcov p,ev
B
SveiSt,l6vTC0V /coAa/cet'a? /cat dveXevBepias tcov Se

,
vovOstovvtcov /cat alayyvop,evoyv v-rrep avTcov tu>
eptovri TrdvTa raura ttoiovvti XaPls e-neoTi, Kat

8
SeSorat j5tto tou vop,ov dvev ovecSovs irpaTTew, cos

TrdyKaXov rt
Trpayp,a oianpaTTopevov o Se Set-
voTarov, cos ye Aeyouow ot 7roAAot, ort /cat opwn
ptovcp rrapd detov eKâvTt tov op/cov
avyyvLO\i,f]
d<f>po8lcnov yap opKov ov <f>aoiv eivav ovru> /cat ot
deol /cat ot avdpamoi nacrav iovmav ireiToirJKaoL
C
sec). Schleierm.
1
0iXocro0(as
114
SYMPOSIUM
honourable to love openly than in secret, especially
when the beloved excels not so much in beauty as
in nobility and virtue ; and again, what a wonderful
encouragement a lover gets from us all : we have
no thought of his doing anything unseemly, and
success in his pursuit is counted honourable and
failure disgraceful ; and how in his endeavours for
success our law leaves him a free hand for performing
such admirable acts as may win him praise ; while
the same acts, if attempted for any other purpose
or effect to which one might be inclined, would
bring one nothing in return but the sharpest reproach.
For suppose that with the view of gaining money
from another, or some office, or any sort of influence,
a man should allow himself to behave as lovers
commonly do to their favourites pressing their
I
suit with supplications and entreaties, binding
'
themselves with vows, sleeping on doorsteps, and
submitting to such slavery as no slave would ever
' endure both the friends and the enemies of such
a man would hinder his behaving in such fashion ;
for while the latter would reproach him with adula
tion and ill-breeding, the former would admonish
him and feel ashamed of his conduct. But in a
!
lover all such doings only win him favour : by free
grant of our law he may behave thus without
reproach, as compassing a most honourable end.
Strangest of all, he alone in the vulgar opinion has
indulgence from the gods when he forsakes the
vow he has sworn ; for the vow of love-passion,
they say, is no vow.1 So true it is that both gods
and men have given absolute licence to the lover,
1
Of. " Sophocles, fr. 694 SpKovs Si p.oix""' els ri<ppav eyu
ypi<pu, the lecher's vows in ashes I record."
115
PLATO
tu> ip&VTi, dis 6 vo/xos <f>r)alv 6 ev9doe. ravTrj p.ev
ovv olrjdelrj dv ns irdyKaAov vop.iêadai ev TJjoe
Tjj noAei Kal to epdv Kal to (j>lXovs yiyveadai toZs
epaorcus. 7rei8av Se TTaiSayojyous emaTrjaav-
Tes ol Ttaripes rols ipojp,evoi,s p.rj edjat StaAeye-
oOai toZs epaaTaZs, koI tco TraiSaycoyai ravra irpoa-
rjXiKicorai 8e Kal eTaZpot1 oWi8icu-
rj,
Tera.yp.iva
aw, idv tl opaJac tolovto yi.yv6p.evov, Kal tovs
D
6vei8lovTas av ol TTpeofSvrepot, ju.17 SiaKwAuojcri

p,rjoe Xoiooputow d>s ovk opdcjs XeyovTas, els Se
raura tis av (iXeilias rjyqaaiT' dv ndXw atoxiaTov
to tolovtov evdaoe vop,lea9ai. to Se, otpai, tuS
e\ef ov)( dirXovv eoTiv, oirep
e
dpxfjs eXeyOrj,
ovTe KaXov elvau aiiTO Ka6 avTO ovTe ala\pov,
dXXa koXcHs p,kv TrpaTTop.evov koXov, alaxp&s Se
alaxpdv. alaxpdbs p.ev ovv earl irovqpd) tc Kal
TTOvrjpcHs â/)ieo-0ai, koXcos 8e ^pryorai T Kal
iarlv
8'
KaXd>s. eKeZvos epaarqs
6
TTOVTjpos 6
Trdvhrjp.05, tov aa>p.aros p,dXXov ttjs 'pv)(f}s
6
77
epwv Kal yap oi58e p.6vip,6s iariv, are ov p,ovlp,ov

E
epCbv irpdyp,aTOS. dp,a yap ra> tov ad>p,a.TOs

"
dvdei A^yovTi, ovnep 17/30., oiêTai amoTnd-
p,evos," ttoXXovs Xoyovs Kal imoaxeoeLS kot-
aioyyvas' Se toiJ rjQovs XP7](JT0^ ovtos epaarr/s
6
184 Sia jSt'ov p,evei, are p.ovip.u> avvTaKeis. tovtovs

St)
rjp,eTepos vop.os ev Kal KaXd>s fiaaavi-

6
/SovAercu
t,ew, Kal toZs p.ev xapiaaodai, tovs Se 8ia<j>evyew .
Sta TOVTa oSv toZs p.ev 8iu>Kew TrapaKeXeverac,
toZs Se <f>evyew, dycDvodeTcov Kal fiaoavl^cov ttotc-
eroipoi Heindorf trepot mss.
1
So Agamemnon speaks of the dream which brought

1
him a message through the lips of Nestor (Homer, II. ii. 71).
116
SYMPOSIUM
as our Athenian law provides. Thus far, then, we
have ground for supposing that here in our city
both loving some one and showing affection to one's
lover are held in highest honour. But it happens
that fathers put tutors in charge of their boys when
they are beloved, to prevent them from conversing
with their lovers : the tutor has strict injunctions
on the matter, and when they observe a boy to be
guilty of such a thing his playmates and fellows
reproach him, while his reproachers are not in their
turn withheld or upbraided by their elders as speaking
amiss ; and from this it might rather be inferred
that his behaviour is held to be a great disgrace
in Athens. Yet the truth of it, I think, is this :
the affair is no simple thing ; you remember we
said that by itself it was neither noble nor base,
but that it was noble if nobly conducted, and
base if basely. To do the thing basely is to gratify
' '
a wicked man in a wicked manner : nobly
means having to do with a good man in a
' '
noble manner. By wicked we mean that popular
lover, who craves the body rather than the soul :
as he is not in love with what abides, he himself is
not abiding. As soon as the bloom of the body
he so loved begins to fade he ' flutters off and is
gone,' * leaving all his speeches and promises dis
honoured : whereas the lover of a nature that is
worthy abides throughout life, as being fused into
one with the abiding.
"
Now our law has a sure and excellent test for
the trial of these persons, showing which are to be
favoured and which to be shunned. In the one case,
accordingly, it encourages pursuit, but flight in the
other, applying ordeals and tests in each case,
117
PLATO
pa>v irore eariv 6 Kai irorepatv o epa>p.evos

epcov
vtto ravrr/s rrjs alrlas irpwrov p.ev to
8rj
ovra>
aXitTKeodat ru.xv o.la\pov vevopaarai, Iva xpovos
8oKei ra iroXXd koXcos âoavlêiv
8r)
eyyevrjrai, os
etreira to i5770 xPr]tJl'^Ta>v Kal vito iroXiriKcov
8vvdp,eu>v dXuivai alaxpov, edv re kclkios irdaxojv
B
TTTT]r) Kal p.r) Kapreprfor), av r evepyerovp.evos

els XPVfiaTa ek 8iairpdeis iroXiriKas p,rj Kara-
V
<f>povqorf ov8ev yap 8oKei rovrojv ovre fiefiaiov
ovre p.6vip.ov etvai, xu)pis rov p,rj8e rre(f)VKevai an'
8rj
avrtov yevvalav (f>iXlav p,ta Xelirerai t<3
r)p.erepuj vofjbU) 6S6s,

el xapteiaflai
/xe'AAet KaXcos
epaarfj irai8i,Kd. eon yap rjp.iv vop.os, oiairep em
C
rols epacrrals 8ovXevew edeXovra tjvtivovv 8ov-

r)v
Xelav 77ai8i/cot? pr) KoXaKeiav elvaL p,r)8e iirovel8i-

arov, ovroi Kal dXXrj fiia p,6vr\ 8ovXela eKovaios
8r/
Xelirerai, ovk enovel8ioTOS' avrrj 84 eariv irepl
r)
ttjV aperr\v.
8ij
Nev6p,t,orai yap r)pXv, edv ris ideXr/ rivd

Si
Oepaireveiv rjyovp,evos eKeZvov ap,eivcov eoeoBai

Kara oo(f>lav two. Kara dXXo oriovv p,epos
r)
r)
dperfjs, avrrj a3 i6eXo8ovXela ovk ala\pd elvat

r)
ov8e KoXaKela. 8eZ rw vop,a> rovrai avpL/SaXeiv

8r)
els ravrov, rov re irepl rrjv irai8epaorlav Kal rov

D
irepl rrjv (f>iXoao(j)lav re Kal rrp> dXXrjv dperr\v,

el
p,eXXei crvp.firjvai KaXov yeveadat ro epaarfj irat,-

8iKa xapiaaodai. orav yap eiy ro avro eXdiooiv
epaorrfs re Kal itai8iKa, vop.ov e^wv eKarepos,
6
p.ev âyotcra/xevot? iratSiKots virrjperiov oriovv

8iKala>s av virrjpereiv, 8e rat ttoiovvti avrov
6
118
SYMPOSIUM
whereby we are able to rank the lover and the beloved

on this side or on that. And so it is for this reasonA
that our convention regards a quick capitulation J -/
as a disgrace : for there ought, first, to be a certain I
interval the generally approved touchstone of I
time ; and, second, it is 'disgraceful if the surrender [
is due to gold or public preferment, or is a mere \
cowering away from the endurance of ill-treatment, /
or shows the youth not properly contemptuous of
such benefits as he may receive in pelf or political
success. For in these there appears nothing stead
fast or abiding, unless it be the impossibility of
their producing a noble friendship. One way
remains in our custom whereby a favourite may
rightly gratify his lover : it is our rule that, just as"~\
in the case of the lovers it was counted no flattery
or scandal for them to be willingly and utterly L
enslaved to their favourites, so there is left one sort V
of voluntary thraldom which is not scandalous ;. I |
s
\\
mean, in the cause of virtue.
"
It is our settled tradition that when a man freely
devotes his service to another in the belief that his
friend will make him better in point of wisdom, /
it may be, or in any of the other parts of virtue, /
this willing bondage also is no sort of baseness /
or flattery. Let us compare the two rules one
dealing with the passion for boys, and the other
with the love of wisdom and all virtuous ways : by
this we shall see if we are to conclude it a good thing
that a favourite should gratify his lover. For when
lover and favourite come together, each guided by
his own rule on the one side, of being justified in
doing any service to the favourite who has obliged
him, and on the other, of being justified in showing
nr,
PLATO
oo<f>6v re Kal dyaOov Si/cauos at? otiow dv inrovp-

yCov <VTrovpyeiv>,1 Kal 6 p.ev Bwdfievos els <f>pov7]-
E ouv Kal rrjv dXXrjv dperrjv crvfifidWearOai, 6 Se
8e6fj.evos els iraihevaiv Kal ttjv dXXrjv o~o<f>lav ktS.-

adat, Tore tovtcov owiovtcov els raiirdv tcov
8r)
vo)xojv p,ovaxpv evravda ovfxiriTTTei to KaXov elvai
7ratSi/ca epaarfj âpiaaadai, dXXodi 8e ovSafxov.
em tovtco Kal eaTTaTT)8fjvai ovSev ala\pov em
oe tois dXXois TTaoi Kal eaTraTCOfievcp ala^vvrjv
185 <f>epei Kal /laij. ydp ris epaoTrj cos irXovaim
el
ttXovtov eveKa xaPl<fd(ievos eâTTaTrjdecT] Kal firj
Aa/Sot xprj/jiaTa, dva<f>avevTOS tov epaarov Trevrjros,
ovSev fjTTOv alaxpov SoKel yap toiovtos to ye
6
avrov emSeiijai, on eveKa )(pr]p,dTcov otiovv dv
orcpovv VTrrjpeTOi, tovto 8e ov KaXov. Kara tov
avrov Xoyov kov ris
8t)
el
cos dyadco xapiodjAevos

Kat,avros cos afieivcov eoofievos Sia ttjv ^>iXiav tov
epaarov eâTTarrjOelr], dva<f>avevros eKeivov KaKov
B
Kal ov KeKT7jp,evov dperrjv, op.cos KaXrj aiTary rj
SoKel ydp a8 Kal oStos to Kad' avrov Seo'rjXcoKevai,

otl aperfjs eveKa /cat tov peAruov yeveodai irav
y
dv ttovtI TTpo9vfj,7]delr), tovto 8e av irdvrcov koX-

Xiotov ovtco ttovtcos ye KaXov dperfjs eveKa XaPl~
l,eodai.
Ovtos eoriv Trjs ovpavias 6eov epcos Kal ovpd-
6
vios Kal noXXov aios Kal 7roAei Kal loicoTais, ttoA-

Xrjv em.neXei.av dvayKa^cov iroielaOai irpos dpeTrjV
rov re epcovTa avrov avrov Kal tov epcofxevov
'
ol
Baiter.
1
inrovpyGtv <vwovpyeTv>
120
SYMPOSIUM
any attentions to the friend who makes him wise

and good ; the elder of his plenty contributing to l^'
intellectual and all other excellence, the younger
in his paucity acquiring education and all learned
arts : only then, at the meeting of these two
principles in one place, only then and there, and
in no other case, can it befall that a favourite
may honourably indulge his lover. To have such
hopes deceived is no disgrace ; while those of any
other sort must be disgraceful, whether deceived or
not. For suppose that a youth had a lover he deemed
to be wealthy and, after obliging him for the sake
of his wealth, were to find himself deceived and no
money to be got, since the lover proved to be poor ;
this would be disgraceful all the same ; since the
youth may be said to have revealed his character,
and shown himself ready to do anyone any service
for pelf, and this is not honourable. By the same
token, when a youth gratifies a friend, supposing
him to be a good man and expecting to be made
better himself as a result of his lover's affection,
and then finds he is deceived, since his friend proves
to be vile and destitute of virtue ; even so the
deception is honourable. For this youth is also/?
held to have discovered his nature, by showing 1|
that he would make anyone the object of his utmost
ardour for the sake of virtuous improvement ; and
this by contrast is supremely honourable. Thus by
all means it is right to bestow this favour for thei
sake of virtue.
" \
This is the Love that belongs to the Heavenly
Goddess, heavenly itself and precious to both public
and private life : for this compels lover and beloved
alikejo- fefil-a zealous coneera_ipr~ their own virtue.
121
PLATO
S' erepoi navres rrjs irepag, rrjs Trav87]p,ov. rav-
Tct ool, e<f>rj, ws e/c rod 7rapaxpfjp,a, w OaiSpe,
nept Epwro? ovp.fidXXop,ai.

Havaavtov Se Travara.fj.evov, SiSao-zcouax yap /Lie
"era Xiyeiv ovrcoal ol ao<f>oi, e<j>r) 6 'Apiard8r]pios
'
8eZv p,ev Apiaroiavr/ Xeyeiv, Ttrêiv Se avrw Tiva
r) vtto TrXrjap.ovrjs r) vrro twos aXXov Xvyya envne-
TTTCOKvlav Kal ov\ otdv re elvai Xeyeiv, dXX' elrreZv
D avrov ev rij Kara) yap avrov rdv larpdv 'Epu^t-
p.axov KaraKeiadai Q. Epuîiiaê, SiVaio? et r)
navaai fie rfjs Xvyyds r) Xeyeiv virep ep.ov, eco?
av eyd) Travowpiai. Kal tov 'E*pu(;ip,axov eiTretv
'AAAa. TTOirfoa) dp.<f>drepa ravra, eyd) fiev ydp ipa>
ev rep acp p.epei, av 8 eireiSdv navojj, iv rep e/j,tp'
ev tp 0 av eyco Aeyai, eav p.ev aoi eueAr/ a-mievan
eôvri ttoXvv xpovov TraveoOai rj Xvy- el Se fjnj,
E vSari avaKoyxyXiaaov . el 8' dpa Tidvv lar^vpa
eariv, avaXafiiov ri roiovrov otcp Kvrqaais1 dv rrjv
rovro Troirjarjs airaf; rj 81s, Kal
pZva, Trrape' /cat eav
el irdw laxvpd eari, rravaerai. Ovk dv <f>0dvois Ae-
yojv, cpdvai rdv 'Apiaro<f>dvrj- eyd) Se raura Troirjcra).
JLlrretv rdv '^Lpvi;ip,axov AoKeZ roivvv 1x01
8r)
avayKaiov elvai, eWiSij nauo-avias1 dppvqaas em

186 rdv Xdyov koXujs ot>x ikovws drrereXeae, SeiV
e/xe rreipdodai reXos emOeZvai rep Xdyep. to /j.ev
yap 8irrXovv elvai rdv "Epeora 8oKel p.01 KaAtos
8ieXeo9ai- on Se ov (jlovov earlv em rats if/v)(aZs
Kvrjacus Wyttenb. mss.
1
KLv^Gais
:
The punning assonance alludes to those sophists who

1
developed the etymological suggestions of Heracleitus and

Aeschylus into mere sound-effects for prose. A more serious
philological development discussed in Cratylus, 396.
is
122
SYMPOSIUM
But lovers of the other sort belong all to the other
Goddess, the Popular. Such, Phaedrus, is the con
tribution I am able to offer you, on the spur of the
moment, towards the discussion of Love." ; . -
Pausanias' praise made a pause with this phrase

you see what jingles the schoolmen are teaching
me ! 1 The next speaker, so Aristodemus told me,
was to have been Aristophanes : but a surfeit or
some other cause had chanced to afflict him with
a hiccough, which prevented him from speaking ; and
he could only just say to Eryximachus the doctor,
"
whose place was next below him, I look to you
Eryximachus, either to stop my hiccough, or to
"
speak in my stead until I can stop it." Why, I
"
will do both," replied Eryximachus for I will take
your turn for speaking, and when you have stopped
it, you shall take mine. But during my speech,
if on your holding your breath a good while the
hiccough chooses to stop, well and good ; otherwise,
you must gargle with some water. If, however, it
is a very stubborn one, take something that will
tickle your nostrils, and sneeze : do this once or
twice, and though it be of the stubbornest, it will
" Start
stop." away with your speech," said
"
Aristophanes, and I will do as you advise."
The Speech of Eryximachtis

"
Then Eryximachus spoke as follows : Well then,
since Pausanias did not properly finish off the speech
he began so well, I must do my best to append
a conclusion thereto. His division of Love into
two sorts appears to me a good one : but medicine,
our great mystery, has taught me to observe that
Love is not merely an impulse of human souls towajds
123
PLATO
rcov dvdpamcov rrpos rovs kclXovs dXXa Kal rrpos

dXXa rroXXd /cat eV roZs dAAoty, roZs re ocop,aaL
rcov ndvrcov Z,cpcov /cat tols ev rfj yij (j>vopevoi.s /cat
cos erros ehreZv ev Trdai roZs overt, KadecopaKevai
poi. So/ecu e/c rr)s larpiKrjs, rrjs r/perepas re)(vrjs,
B ai? peyas /cat 0avp.aar6s /cat em irav 6 deos reivei
/cat Kar dvOpcomva Kara #eta Trpa.yp.ar a.
/cat
dpopai Se a/no rfjs larpiKrjs Xeycov, Iva Kal npe-
afievcopev rrjv reyyt\v. r) yap envois rcov ocopdrcov
rov BittXoOv Epcora rovrov eêt. ro yap vyies
rov crcoparos /cat to voaovv 6poXoyovp,evcos erepov
re /cat avopoiov eari, to Se avop.oi.ov avop.oicov
emdvpeZ /cat epa. dXXos pev ovv 6 em rco vyieivcp"
epcos, aAAos oe o em rep voocooei. eari or), coo-nep
apri Havoavias eXeye roZs fiev dyadoZs KaXov
C xaptecr0ai rcov dvdpconcov, roZs Se d/coActcrTots
alo~xp6v, ovrco /cat ev avroZs rols ocdpaoi roZs p.ev
dyadoZs eKaarov rov atop,aros /cat vyieuvoZs KaXov
Xapiêadai /cat Set, /cat rovro eorw cS ovopa to
larpiKov, roZs Se /ca/cots /cat foaoiSeatv alo~xp6v re
/cat Set dâpto-Teti', et peXXei ris rexytKos efvat.
eari yap larpiKr], cos ev Ke(f>aXatcp elrteZv, emarr]pvr\
rcov rov acoparos epcoriKcov rrpos TrXrjapMvrjv /cat
D Kevcooiv, /cat 6 SiayiyvcboKcov ev rovrois rov KaXov
re /cat aloxpov epcora, ovros eorw 6 larpLKcora-
ros, Kal 6 perafidXXeiv ttoccov, coare dvrl rov ere
pov epcoros rov erepov Krdooai, /cat ot? p/fj evecmv
epcos, Set S' eyyeveodai, emordp,evos epLrroi/qoai,
/cat evovra ieXeiv, dyados dv evt] Srjpiovpyos-
Set yap rd e^diara ovra acopari <piXa
8r)
ev rep
124
SYMPOSIUM
beautiful_jaQ_but the attraction of all creatures to
~a-fffgaTvarietyoi' things, which works in the JKxfies
of all animals and allgrowths upon the earth, and
practically in evgrythjng that is ; and I~ have learnt
how mighty and wonderfurandTiniversal is the sway
of this god over all affairs both human and divine.1
Reverence for my profession prompts me to begin
with the witness of medicine. This double Love
belongs to the nature of all bodies : for between
bodily health and sickness there is an admitted
difference or dissimilarity, and what is dissimilar
craves and loves dissimilar things. Hence the desire
felt by a sound body is quite other than that of a
sickly one. Now I agree with what Pausanias was
just saying, that it is right to gratify good men,
base to gratify the dissolute : similarly, in treating
actual bodies it is right and necessary to gratify the
good and healthy elements of each, and this is what
we term the physician's skill ; but it is a disgrace
to do aught but disappoint the bad and sickly
parts, if one aims at being an adept. For the art
of medicine may be summarily described as a know
ledge of the love-matters of the body in regard to
repletion and evacuation ; and the master-physician
is he who can distinguish there between the nobler
and baser Loves, and can effect such alteration that
the one passion is replaced by the other ; and he
will be deemed a good practitioner who is expert
in producing Love where it ought to flourish but
exists not, and in removing it from where it should
not be. Indeed he must be able to make friends
1
This cosmic theory was. derived from Empedocles, who
spoke of Love as the combining, and Strife as the disruptive,
force pervading the universe.
125
PLATO
olov t
elvai noielv Kal epdv dXXrjXoov eon Se
e^tora Ta ivavTiwTara, ifiv^pov Oep/Jicp, mKpov
yXvKeZ, r)pov vypw, -navra to. TOiavra' tovtois
E imcrTTjdels epcora ipiroiijocu /cat Sfiovoiav 6 r/fiere-.
pos npoyovos 'AaKXrjmos, cos <j>aaiv otSe ol ttoit)-
ral Kal iy<l> TreiOo/jiai, aweoT-qae ttjv 7]p,erepav
Teyyr\v. r\ re oSv larpiKr), cocmep Xeyco, naaa Sta
tov Oeov tovtov Kvfiepvarai, cbaavTcos Se /cat yv/xva-
187 OTUcr/ Kal yecopyia' /xovaiKrj Se Kal iravrl /cara-
SrjXos Kal apiKpov npoae\ovri tov vovv otl
tu>
Kara ravra. e'êt tovtois, coonep locos Kai Hpa-
/cAeiTOS fSovXerat, Xeyeiv, en-ei toZs ye prjp.aaiv ov
KaXws Xeyei. to ev yap cfrrjcri
" 8ia<f>epo/j,evov at/To
avrw crv/jubepeodai, cocnrep dp/jioviav toov re /cat
Xvpas." ecrTi Se ttoXXtj aXoyia apjxoviav <f>dvai
8ia<f>epeo9ai r) eK 8ia<j>epopevcov en ecvat. aXX
locos roSe efiovXero Xeyeiv, on e/c 8ia(/>epoîevcov
B TrpoTepov tov 6eos Kal flapeos, eirena varepov
6p.oXoyrjodvT(x)v yeyovev vtto ttjs /u.ovo~iKfjs Texvrjs-
ov ydp Stfrrov eK 8ia<f>epop.evcov ye en tov 6eos
Kal fiapeos appovia av eirj. rj yap dpfiovia avfx-
<f)covia
earl, ovp,<f>covia Se 6/j.oXoyla ns~ dfioXoyiav
Se e/c 8ia(f>epofj,evcov, ecos dv 8iacf>epcovTai, d8v-
vaTov elvai' 8ia4>ep6p,evov Se afi Kal firj dfioXoyelv
d8vvaT0vv <8vvaTov>1 dpp,6aai, coajrep ye /cat o
C pvSjxos eK tov Taxeos Kal /3pa8eos 8ievrjveyfA,evcov
npoTepov, varepov Se ofxoXoyrjaavTcov yeyove.
ttjv Se ofioXoyiav Traoi tovtois, coonep e/cet -q
laTpiK-rj, eVra>0a 17 fiovauc^ evndrjaiv, epcora Kal
1
6tio\oyeiv aSwarovv <$vva.Tbv> Bury : bfiokoyovv dSvvaTov
MSS.
126 .
SYMPOSIUM
and happy lovers of the keenest opponents in the
body. Now the most contrary qualities are most
hostile to each other cold and hot, bitter and
sweet, dry and moist, and the rest of them. It was
by knowing how to foster love and unanimity in
these that, as our two poets 1 here relate, and as I
myself believe, our forefather Asclepius composed
this science of ours. And so not merely is all
medicine governed, as I propound it, through the
influence of this god, but likewise athletics and
agriculture. Music also, as is plain to any the least
curious observer, is in the same sort of case : perhaps
Heracleitus intends as much by those perplexing
'
words, The One at variance with itself is drawn
together, like harmony of bow or lyre.' 2 Now it is
perfectly absurd to speak of a harmony at variance,
or as formed from things still varying. Perhaps he
meant, however, that from the grave and acute
which were varying before, but which afterwards
came to agreement, the harmony was by musical
art created. For surely there can be no harmony
of acute and grave while still at variance : harmony
is consonance, and consonance is a kind of agree
ment ; and agreement of things varying, so long as
they are at variance, is impossible. On the other
hand, when a thing varies with no disability of
agreement, then it may be harmonized ; just as
rhythm is produced by fast and slow, which in the
beginning were at variance but later came to agree.
In all these cases the agreement is brought about
by music which, like medicine in the former instance,
1
Aristophanes and Agathon.
2
Heracl. fr. 45 (Bywater). The universe is held together
by the strain of opposing forces, just as the right use of bow
or lyre depends on opposite tension.
.127
PLATO
o/xovoiav dXXrjXcov ep/novr\aa.aa.- /cat eoTiv av p.ov-

ox/ct) Trepi dpp.ovi.av /cat pvdp.ov epa/Tt/cdiv em-
crrr/tiT). /cat iv p,ev ye avrfj rfj avaraaei dp/xovias
re pvOfiov ov8ev âXenov rd epa>Tt/cd Stayt-
/cat
yvwaKeiv, ov8e 6 8177X05? epcos evravdd ttco1 eorw
dAA' eVe tSdv 8erj irpos rovs dvdpconovs Karaxpfj-
D adai fj iroiovvra, o
St)
pvdp,a> Te /cat dp/xovta. pueXo-
Trouav KaXovaw, opdws rols TreTroirj-
^paSxtevov
r/
/xeVot? /xe'Aecri re /cat [/.erpois,
St)
7ratSet'a eKXrjdr],
o
evravOa /cat xa^-e7TOV Kal ayadov 07]p,iovpyov
St)
Set. -rrdXw ydp Tpcet avTO? Aoyo?, drt rot? /xev

d
/cotr/xtot? Tail' dvQpojmov, /cat d9 av /cooyxtajTepot
yiyvoiVTO ol pvfptix) ovres, Set âptecr0ai /cat <it/-
Xdrreiv rdv rovrcov epcara, /cat ojJtos eortv /caAoy,
d
ovpdvios, rfjs Ovpavcas piovarjs Epaiy
E
Se
d
d
6
IIoAuxtviaj Trdv8r)p,os, ov Set evXa.fSovp.evov -npoa-

d
(fjepeiv ots av irpoacfjepr), ottcos Sv rrjv p,ev rjBovrjv

avrov KapTTuiorjTai, d/coAaatav Se itTjSetttW e/x-
TTorforj, djonep ev rfj r/pLerepa Teyyr\ pceya epyov
rat? irepl rr/v oi/ioirouKrjv rexvqv emdvpuais /caAai?
Xpfjodai, djar' dvev voaov rr/v rjoovrjv KapTraxja-
adai. /cat ev fj.ovat.Kij /cat eV tarpt/cj) /cat ev rot?
St)
dAAotj 77acrt /cat Tot? avdpameiois /cat toi? Oelois,

Kad' daov 7rapet'/cei, (f>vXaKTeov endrepov rdv
188 "Epa/ra- evearov ydp.
'Erret /cattojv cupuiv rov eviavrov crvaraais
t)
p,eoT-q emw dp,<f>OTepcov tovtwv, /cat eWtSdv /xev

7rp6? dAAijAa rov /coa/xtou tvxTI epcoros w
St)
d
eyd) eAeyov, rd re depp,d /cat rd iftvxpd /cat ^T/pd

/cat vypd, /cat dpp,ovlav /cat Kpaaiv Xdfir) aa><f>pova,
rj/cet <j>epovTa everrjplav Te /cat vyUiav dvdpamois
ttu Badham irSs mss.
1
128
SYMPOSIUM
introduces a mutual love and unanimity. Hence
in its turn music is found to be a knowledge of
love-matters relating to harmony and rhythm. In
the actual system of harmony or rhythm we can
easily distinguish these love-matters ; as yet the
double Love is absent : but when we come to the
application of rhythm and harmony to social life,
' '
whether we construct what are called melodies
'
or render correctly, by what is known as training,'
tunes and measures already constructed, we find
here a certain difficulty and require a good crafts
man. Round comes the same conclusion : well-
ordered men, and the less regular only so as to
bring them to better order, should be indulged in
this Love, and this is the sort we should preserve ;
this is the noble, the Heavenly Love, sprung from
the Heavenly Muse. But the Popular Love comes
from the Queen of Various Song ; in applying him
we must proceed with all caution, that no debauchery
be implanted with the reaping of his pleasure, just
as in our craft we set high importance on a
right use of the appetite for dainties of the table,
that we may cull the pleasure without disease.
Thus in music and medicine and every other affair
whether human or divine, we must be on the watch
as far as may be for either sort of Love ; for both
are there.
" Note how even the
system of the yearly seasons
is full of these two forces ; how the qualities
I mentioned just now, heat and cold, drought and
moisture, when brought together by the orderly
Love, and taking on a temperate harmony as they
mingle, become bearers of ripe fertility and health
129
PLATO
/cat rots dXXois ^cpois re /cat (jjvroZs, /cat ov$ev

rjSiKrjaev orav 8e 6 fiera rrjs v/3pea)s "Epa>s ey-
Kparearepos Trepl ras rov eviavrov copas yevrjrai,
B 8t,a<f>8e(,pi, re ttoAAo. /cat r)oLKT]aev. ol re yap Aot-
uol <f>tXoaL yiyveadai e/c rwv roiovrow Kal aAA'
dvofioca 7ToAAa voar]p.ara Kal rots drjpiois Kal rots
(f>vrots' Kal yap na^yai Kal ^;aAaat Kal epvaZfiai
e/c rrXeoveîas Kal a,Koop,las Trepl dXXrjXa ra>v roiov-
ratv yiyverai epa)riK(7>v, wv eTri.arrjp.rj rrepi aarpiov
re <f>opas Kal eviavrcov a>pas darpovop,i.a /caAetrat.
en toLvvv Kai at dvoiai -rraaai Kai ois p.avriKr)
C eTriarareZ ravra 8' early r) Trepl deovs re koX
dvOpwrrovs rrpos aXXr/Xovs KoivawLa ov Trepl dXXo
rt ear tv r) Trepl "Epa>ros <f>vXaKrjv re Kal iaaiv.
yiyveadai, edv pvrj ris
1
Traoa yap \rj\ doefieia <j>iXeZ
Koa/Jiiu) EpcoTi )(apit,T]rai p.rj8e rip.a re avrov
Kal Trpeapevrj ev rravrl epyai, dXXd [wept]2 rov ere-
pov, Kal Trepl yoveas Kal u>vras Kal rereXevrr/KO-
ras Kal Trepl deovs- a rrpoareraKrai rfj p.avriKjj
8r)
emaKOTreiv rovs "Epcoras Kal larpeveiv, Kal eanv

av fiavriKr) <f>t,Xias dewv /cat dvdpioTriov 8rjp,iovp-
D
r)
yos ra> errlaraadai rd Kara dvdpwrrovs eputriKa.,

ooa reivei Trpos 8ep.iv Kal evaefieiav
?
Ovrat TroXXrjV Kal p.eydXrjv, p,aXXov 8e rraaav

eêi avXXrjfiSrjv p,ev rras "E/aajy, o Se
6
8vi>ap.iv
rrepl rayadd p.era aojtppoavvrjs Kal oiKaioavvrjs
drroreXovp,evos /cat Trap1 r)p,Zv Kal rrapd deoZs,
ovros rr)v p,eyiarr)v Swapuv eêt /cat rraaav r)fj,Zv
eiiSaifiovlav TrapaaKevdêt /cat dAAijAoty 8vva/j.e-
vovs 6p,iXeZv /cat rpLXovs etvai Kal rots Kpeirrocyiv
om. Stob. om. Stob.
1
irepl
I?
e&atfietav Stob. dc^Seta? MSS.

3
130
SYMPOSIUM
to men and animals and plants, and are guilty of no .
wrong. But when the wanton-spirited Love gains

the ascendant in the seasons of the year, great
destruction and wrong does he wreak. For at these
junctures are wont to arise pestilences and many
other varieties of disease in beasts and herbs ;
likewise hoar-frosts, hails, and mildews, which spring
from mutual encroachments and disturbances in
such love-connexions as are studied in relation to
the motions of the stars and the yearly seasons by
what we term astronomy. So further, all sacrifices
and ceremonies controlled by divination, namely,
all means of communion between gods and men,
are only concerned with either the preservation
or the cure of Love. For impiety is usually in eacn
case the result of refusing to gratify the orderly
Love or to honour and prefer him in all our affairs,
and of yielding to the other in questions of duty
towards one's parents whether alive or dead, and
also towards the gods. To divination is appointed the \
task of supervising and treating the health of these '
Loves ; wherefore that art, as knowing what human
love-affairs will lead to seemliness and pious
observance, is indeed a purveyor of friendship
betwixt gods and men.
" Thus Love, conceived as a
single whole, exerts "\
a wide, a strong, nay, in short, a complete power : [
but that which is consummated for a good purpose, \
temperately and justly, both here on earth and in \
heaven above, wields the mightiest power of all \
and provides us with a perfect bliss ; so that we
are able to consort with one another and have friend
ship with the gods who are above us. It may well
131
PLATO
E rjfjLuJv Oeols- pev ovv Kai iy<l> tov "EpoJTa
tocos
evaivcov iroXXd TrapaXeiTTO), ov p,evToi eKOJV ye.
dXX' el rt eeXnrov, adv epyov, cu 'Api0TO<f>aves,
avaTrXrjpcocrai- 77
el ncos dXXws ev vw eêis eyKco-
p,iaL,ew tov deov, eyKU>plal,e, eireib'T] Kai rfjs Xvy-
yOS TTTTaVO(U.
'
189 'ExSeâ/xei'ov ovv ecf>7]
sinew tov ApioTocpdvr)
oti Kai pdX e-navoaTO, ov pevToi Ttpiv ye tov
TtTa.pp.6v TTpoaevexdfjvai avTrj, wore pe Oavpdêiv
i to
Koapiov tov oojpaTOS emOvpei toiovtcov
ipocpcov Kai yapyaXiapcbv , olov Kai 6 mappos eoTim
rrdvv ydp evdvs eiravaaTO, eTreiSrj avTut tov TTTap-
pov Trpoo-qveyKa.
Kai tov 'Epvtpaxov, TQ 'yade, (ftdvai, 'ApiaTO-
<f>aves, opa tL Troieis- yeX<uTOTroiels peXXojv Xeyeiv,
B Kai <f>vXaKa pe tov Xoyov avayKaêis yiyveadai
tov oeavrov, edv tl yeXoiov e'lTrrjS, i6v ooi ev
elprjvr) Xeyeiv.
'
Kai tov Apt,oTO</)dvr) yeXdaavTa evneiv Eu
Xeyeis, 'Epvîpaê, Kai poi eoTio dpprjTa to.
<L
elprjpeva. dXXd pr\ pe <f>vXaTTe, (Ls eyd) <f>o/3ovpai

nepi Tibv p,eXX6vTU)V prfi-f)aeoQai, ov tl prj yeXoia
etiroj, tovto pev yap dv KepSos elr] Kai ttjs ype-
Tepas povo-qs imxtbpiov, dXXd prj KaTayeXaoTa.
BaAtbv ye, <j>dvai, a> 'Apiaroâves, otei eK<f>ev-
eoOai- dXXd TTpoaeye tov vovv Kai ovrco Xeye ojs
C Sa>o-a>v Xoyov laws pevToi, dv 80^77 poi, difrrjcrco oe.
Kai 'Epvîpaxe, elireiv tov 'ApiaTO-
i!)
pT\v,
dXXj) ye ttt) iv vu> e\o) Xeyeiv, av re
fj
<f>dv7],
t)
132
SYMPOSIUM
be that with the best will in the world I have
omitted many points in the praise I owe to Love ;
but any gaps which I may have left it is your
business, Aristophanes, to fill : or if you intend some
different manner of glorifying the god, let us hear
your eulogy, for you have stopped your hiccough
now."
Then, as my friend related, Aristophanes took up
"
the word and said : Yes, it has stopped, though
not until it was treated with a course of sneezing,
such as leaves me wondering that the orderly principle
of the body should call for the noises and titillations
involved in sneezing ; you see, it stopped the very
moment I applied the sneeze to it."
"
My good Aristophanes," replied Eryximachus,
take heed what you are about. Here are you
buffooning before ever you begin, and compelling
me to be on the watch for the first absurdity in your
speech, when you might deliver it in peace."
At this Aristophanes laughed, and " Quite right,
" I
Eryximachus," he said ; unsay all that I have
said. Do not keep a watch on me ; for as to what is
going to be said, my fear is not so much of saying
something absurd since that would be all to the
good and native to my Muse as something
utterly ridiculous."
"
You think you can just let fly, Aristophanes,
and get off unscathed ! Have a good care to
speak only what you can defend ; though perhaps I
may be pleased to let you off altogether."
The Speech of Aristophanes

" It
is indeed my intention, Eryximachus," said
"
Aristophanes, to speak in somewhat different
133
PLATO
/cat Uavoavlas elrrerrfv. efiol yap SoKovaiv ol

avdpioTTOi rravraTraat. rr)v rov epojros ovvap.iv ovk
fjadfjadcu, errel ala6avop.evoi ye fieyiar av avrov
tepa KaraoKevaoai fitofiovs, Kal Ovaias av
/cat
7T0ieiv fj.eyi.aras, oi>x coanep vvv rovrcov ovokv yt-
yverai rrepl avrov, oeov rrdvrcov fj.dXi.ara ylyveadau.
D eari yap 6ea>v cfriXavOpcoTroraros, emKovpos re u>v
ru>v dvdpcoTratv /cat larpds rovrajv, wv ladevrcov
fj.eyi.ar7] i5Sat/xovta av rip dvOpcoTreia) yevei eirj.

eyco ovv rreipdoofiai vp.lv elarjyrjaaaOai, rr)v 8vva-
p.iv avrov, ifieis Se rcov dXXa>v StSdWaAot eaeoQe.
Set Be rrpcorov ifids fiadelv rr)v dvdpiomvrjv cf>vaiv
to,
/cat rraOrffiara avrrfs. r) ydp irdXat r)fiaiv
(f>vais ovx avrrj rjv, ffnep vvv, aAA' dAAot'a. rrpGi-
rov fxev ydp rpla rd yevrj rd rwv dvOpcbrrajv,
r)v
ovx toarrep vvv Svo, dppev /cat drjXv, dXXd Kal rpi-
E
rov Trpoafjv koivov ov dp.cj>orepa>v rovrojv, oS vvv

ovofia Xoirrov, avrd 8e r)cj)dvLaraf avSpoywov ydp
rore fiev Kal etSos /cat ovofia
et;
r)v
ev ap.<f>oreptov
Kouvov rov re dppevos /cat 8rjXeos, vvv ovk eariv
8
aAA' oveiSei ovofia Keifievov.

ev eireira SXov rfv
tj
eKaarov rod avdpdmov rd ethos arpoyyvXov, vcorov

Kal rrXevpds kvkXoj exov, x^pas Se rerrapas efjê,
/cat CT/ceArj to. tcra rat? xePah Kai Trp6aa>Tra Sri err'
8'
190 avxevi KVKXorepel, Sfxoia rravrrf Ke<f>aXr)v en

dfi<f>orepois rots Trpoawirois evavrlois Kt,fj,evois
fxiav, /cat cora rerrapa, /cat atSota hvo, /cat rcIAAa
ndvra and rovrwv dv rt,s elKaaecev. erropevero
cos
Se /cat dpBdv coarrep vvv, onorepioae fiovXrfdelrf
Kal oTTore raxy opp/qaeie detv, coanep ol Kvfiiara>v
134
SYMPOSIUM
strain from you and Pausanias. For in my opinion >
humanity has entirely failed to perceive the power of

Love : if men did perceive it, they would have provided
him with splendid temples and altars, and would
splendidly honour him with sacrifice ; whereas we
see none of these things done for him, though they
are especially his due. He of all gods is most friendly
to men ; he succours mankind and heals those ills
whose cure must be the highest happiness of the
human race. Hence I shall try and introduce you
to his power, that you may transmit this teaching
to the world at large. You must begin your lesson
with the nature of man and its development. For
our original nature was by no means the same as it
is now. In the first place, there were three kind:
of human beings, not merely the two sexes, male am
female, as at present : there was a third kind a;
well, which had equal shares of the other two, am
whose name survives though the thing itself has
' '
vanished. For man-woman 1 was then a unity
in form no less than name, composed of both sexes
and sharing equally in male and female ; whereas
now it has come to be merely a name of reproach
Secondly, the form of each person was round all1
over, with back and sides encompassing it every
way ; each had four arms, and legs to match these
and two faces perfectly alike on a cylindrical neck.
There was one head to the two faces, which looked
opposite ways ; there were four ears, two privy mem
bers, and all the other parts, as may be imagined, in
proportion. The creature walked upright as now,
in either direction as it pleased ; and whenever it
started running fast, it went like our acrobats,
i.e.
" " ; Lucret. v. 837 foil.
1
hermaphrodite cf.
135
PLATO
res /cat eis 6p06v ra cr/ce'Ar/ Trepuf>ep6p.evoi Kvfii-

oriooi kvkXoj, okto) rore ovai tols fieAeoiv drrepei-
B 86p,vot Ta)(y i(/>epovro kvkXoj. Se 8x ravra
rjv
rpta Ta yevrj /cat roiavra, oti to tov
r^v
p,ev dppev
rjXiov tt)v dpxr)v Kyovov, to Se 8ijXv ttjs yr)s, to
Se dp,(f>oTpa>v
/xeTeôc ttjs aeXr/vr/s, oti koX
r)
creXrjvq dp,(j>oTpcov p,Texef TTepi<f>epfj Se St) rjv
/cat aura /cat iropeia avTCov Sta to tois yovevaiv
rj
o/xota etvat. r)v ovv ttjv lo~xyv Setva.

tt)v /cat
pcopvrpi, /cat to. <f>povtjp,a.Ta p,eydXa etxov, eirexel-
pr)oav Se toZs deols, /cat Ae'yet "Op.rjpos trepl
6
E^taArou re /cat "D.tov, irepl e/cetWiv Xeyerai, to
C
eis tov ovpavov dvdfiaaw eVtêtpeti' Troieiv, cos

emdrjaopLevcov tols Oeois.
'0 odv Zevs /cat ol dXXoi 6eol iplovXevovTO
,
Tt XPV O-VTOVS TTOITJOOU, /Cat TJTTOpOVV OVT ydp
O
ottojs a7ro/CTtvatev eiftov /cat ojcnrep tovs yiyavTas

to yevos at
KepavvwaavTes d<f>avicratv Tifial yap
avTots /cat tepci ra. Ttapd tujv dvBpojTrojv r)<f>avlêTO
ov6' ottojs Zevs
Br)
ia>ev doeXyaiveiv /.tdyt?

6
.
iworjoas Aeyet oti Ao/cco p.oi, e<f>rj, %& p.r)xavrjv,

cos oa> elev re dvOpcorroi /cat navoaivTO ttjs a/coAa-
mas daOevecrrepoi yevop,evoi. vvv p,ev yap ainovs,

D
e(f>rj, Stare/xtD St'â SKaoTOV, /cat dp,a p.ev dadeve-

crTepoi eaovTai, ct/ia Se xpT/criyiiaiTepoi rjp.lv Sta. to
rrXelovs tov dpidp.6v yeyovevaf /cat paStowrat
6p8ol inl Svolv OKeXoXv edv en SoKcoatv dcreX-
8'
yaivew /cat /xr) edeXcuoiv rjovxâv dyeiv, ttoXiv aw,

136
SYMPOSIUM
whirling over and over with legs stuck out straight ;

only then they had eight limbs to support and speed
them swiftly round and round. The number and
features of these three sexes were owing to the
fact that the male was originally the offspring of
the sun, and the female of the earth ; while that
which partook of both sexes was born of the moon,
for the moon also partakes of both.1 They were
globular in their shape as in their progress, since they
took after their parents . Now, they were of surprising
strength and vigour, and so lofty in their notions
that they even conspired against the gods ; and the
same story is told of them as Homer relates of
Ephialtes and Otus,2 that scheming to assault the
gods in fight they essayed to mount high heaven. -*
"
Thereat Zeus and the other gods debated what
they should do, and were perplexed : for they felt
they could not slay them like the Giants, whom
they had abolished root and branch with strokes
of thunder it would be only abolishing the honours
and observances they had from men ; nor yet could
they endure such sinful rioting. Then Zeus, putting
all his wits together, spake at length and said :
'
Methinks I can contrive that men, without ceasing"*
to exist, shall give over their iniquity through a
lessening of their strength. I propose now to slice , -^
every one of them in two, so that while making^ Jp
them weaker we shall find them more useful by I sy
reason of their multiplication ; and they shall walk t
erect upon two legs. If they continue turbulent y.
and do not choose to keep quiet, I will do it again,'
1
The double sex of the moon is mentioned in an Orphic
hymn (ix. 4): cf. Macrob. iii. 8.
2
Homer, Od. xi. 305 foil. ; II. v. 385 foil.
137
PLATO
* ey * r >
gr:
3/ > e \ A.
8t
&bn, Teuto 6ixa, djat &# &vs Topegovral
!.
|
*
/
Aovs dokoWiovtes. Tabta eitdov reuve rolls dvdp'.
3.
e/
f
T
Tovs Bixa, diotep
|
oi
ruvovres *kal u.
A.
T
Tapixejew, diotep
/
oi
Movres did rais 6p1&
>
c/
6w
v
/
/
T/
5
*
Tuou, Tw 'AtAAo
Te
6vruva kAeve
E
Tpg.
T
otov ueTao Tpbew kai
a: #
rob avyvos #47
Tps Thy Touffy, iya.65%uevos
Tv
roopadrepos ein dvdpotos, kai TAAa lg'
|
T d
TpGotov werorpeje,
S
Te
&k\evev.

a
8pua ti Tv yagrip:
T
ovvAkov Tavtax6ev
T
vv kaRovjuvny, diotep ovataota BaAAdvrul,
otua Trovov, dTel, kata uonv Tijv yaotpa,
&v
1916 8: Tov duffalov KaNobot. kai Ts uv dM /

vras Ts ToMAds e Mauve kai r orn 5:
6pov, #xov Totobrov pyavov otov okvrot"
TV
of
Trept Tv kantoa Aeavovres 7ds Tw orv'.
katAite, Ts Trept airly
6
fivras: 6Aiyas
T.
Toi
yagrpa kal Tv duffax6v, uvmuetov elva.
TV
atoff td.6ovs. tti) offv $vous 6ixa &Tuff.
j
jutov
T
to
Toffov kaoTov airob ovviet,
"
TeptflAAovres Ts* xeipas kal * ovuTAekuevo
"
l
tle
&
B Aij}\ots, tuffvuobvres ovud,5val, drvmakov
Aluob kai Ts AAms *dpyias
T
Bud unv
5
xopis kal 67re

T.
dAAAdov Towev. drofl)

id:
-
c.
Tw
dM
r
/
'v
Tv juiaea 8 Aevd.6et
3
T
.
.
v,
Aewb6v Aewb6ein,
And
d
#
&#ret kal ovvet\keto, eire yuvaiks ris

vrxot juiget,
5)
vv yvyatka kaAouev,
6:
6
Stei
dvps: kal otra's dTAAvvro. Aeffgas
Wic
3
Zeus d?\Amy unXavny Toperat, kal ueratiff" Ofth

eis
T
arw albota Tp06ev: Tdos yp

" o:
Tara kts exov, Kai yvvov kal &rikrov

'th
138
SYMPOSIUM
said he ; I will slice

every person in two, and then
they must go their ways on one leg, hopping.
So saying, he sliced each human being in two, just
as they slice sorb-apples to make a dry preserve,
or eggs with hairs; and at the cleaving of each
its
he bade Apollo turn
to
face and half-neck the
be
section side, order that every one might
in
made
more orderly by the sight the knife's work upon
him; this done, the god was of
heal them up. Then
Apollo turned their faces about, and pulled their to
skin together from the edges over what now
is
called the belly, just like purses which you draw
up
string; the little opening
he
close with tied
a
belly, making
so
of
the middle the what we know

of as in
he
the navel. For the rest, smoothed away most

the puckers and figured out the breast with some
smoothing
in
as
such instrument shoemakers use

the last; though
he
on
of
the wrinkles leather left

there few which we have just about the belly and
a
early
us
navel,
of
to
remind our fall. Now when

two, each half
in
in
our first form had been cut

for
its
longing again; and

to
fellow would come

it
then would they fling their arms about each other

mutual embraces yearn be grafted together,
to
in
and
till they began perish hunger and general
of
to
indolence, through refusing do anything apart.

to
And whenever on the death of one half the other

was left alone, went searching and embracing
to
it
on
might happen
of
see that half the whole woman

it
if
woman, perchance the half

or
which now we call

In a
this plight they were perishing

of
the whole man.

away, when Zeus his pity provided
in
fresh device.
a
privy parts
to
He moved their the frontfor until

all
on
then they had these, like else, the outside, and

139
PLATO
eis
els
yv, otep Trryes' uet.
of
dAAAovs dAA
ov oro (Taijt airveis
T
te
&6mk "pgda
>
kai Bud Towtov Tijv yveauv
v
dAA#Aous toinde,
C
iva
Tve veka,
v
vd tob dippevos t) Met,
&
T
ovut)\oki ua uv divip yuvaiki vriyol,
et
T
yevvev kai yiywotto yvos, dua
ip
kal
ei
!
pmy dppew, TAmauov yojv yiywoto Tis ovovoi's
kal T. kai
kai 6tatavowto kai ti pya Tptowto
8%
to AAov 8tov tueMoivro. ort
k
offv
gov pos ubvros Tots dwptols
D
dAA#Adov

Ts doxolas, $vaeos ovvayaoye's kal 7%ep'
|
k
Tovijaav Tiv fow
T.
8volv kal idoraoffat
v
a
dv6portivny.
li
"Ekaotos otiv dv6pdinov air
obv judov
1"
8oNow, dTe TeTumuvos diotep hittal, 5
at

6)
airo5 kaoros ovuoMo',

T
8vo. ntet del
|| . :
oot uv ov Tw divpv rob koivob Tuud elow:
8,
y r
Tte dvpyvyov kaAetro, bu)\oyvatks
id:
6
elgi kal ToMAoi Tv Plotkw

of
Towrov too
a
vous yeyvao, kal gat yuvaikes biXavpol
\,
E
T
|'d
k
kai uo. Yet Totat, Tovtov toff yewovs yiyvovral

Tw yvyatkw yovaks Tuju elow, '
B
oat
"
#!e
Tvv arat Tos dvpdov tv votiv Tpooxova",

eli
AAd uAAov Tes Ts yvyatras Terpaupval

:
-
ralpiotpat
k
Tovtov tob yvovs yiyvor

at
kal
#
Buff.
ra. 6Got
T
ppevos Tuud elot,

B
ppewa
I
kovo, kal Taes dow, &re reud,"

du
Ta's uv
Y:
vra toff pperos, $oodo' Tolls divpas kal

::
To
Temaeyuvot
192 poval avykarakellevo. Kat ovu
air: Bury.
W.
<!
*
140
SYMPOSIUM
*
on
did their begetting and bringing forth not each
*/
: other but on the earth, like the crickets. These
be
the front,
he
parts
to
now shifted used for
to
6

l.
propagating
on
each otherin the female member
' the male;

by
of
in
so
that their embrace
on if
means
(d,
"
man should happen woman there

" ments
a
a
be
might conception and continuation
of
their
*
kind; and also, they might

|
male met with male

if
relief, and
of
satiety
so
have their union and
a
0|7| might
turn their hands their labours and their
to
ordinary life. Thus anciently

y
mutual
to
interest
is
&
love ingrained mankind, reassembling our early

in
#7.
# endeavouring
to
in
estate and combine two one
# and heal the human sore.
'A
us, then, tally" man,
of
Each but of
is
since every one shows like a
of
flat-fish the traces
a
having been sliced two; and each ever searching

in
is
for the tally that will him. All the men who
fit
that composite sex that

of
at
are sections first was

called man woman are woman courters; our
-
adulterers are mostly descended from that sex,
''.
whence likewise are derived our man-courting
#
women and adulteresses. All the women who

great fancy for men:
no
of
sections the woman have

they are inclined rather women, and
of
to
this stock
are the she-minions. Men who are sections of the
>
male pursue the masculine, and long

beas
so
their
boyhood lasts they show themselves
to
slices
by
making friends with men and delight

of
the male
ing be clasped
to
lie with them and

in
men's
to
*
tally, notched stick matching another,

or
the
A
is
(*) \,
English equivalent
of
nearest for wagoNow, which was half

a
asa
broken die given and kept friendship; see

of
token
to
a
a
below, 193A (Atara).

141
PLATO
dvpdow, kai elow offroi BAttorov Tw Talboy
scal uetpaktav, dire dvpettatov vres #ge.
qiaoi B 6 Tuves avtov's dvadoxvvtovs elval, lev.
uevot ov yp it
dvavoxvvrias Toro 8pgly,
dAA 5t 6ppovs kai dvpetas kal dippevotias, T.
uovov attois data%uevo. puya, 8, Tekuffplo" |
yp TeXeo6vres
els
scal uvov, droflavovow
ri
8
|
oi
TroMutuk divpes towobrov. Tetv dvpur
6gu, Tatepaotobou ka? Tps yduous kal Tato.
B
Toogxovov Tw, votiv fivoet, dAAd ind

ot:
Toutas
rob vuov dvaykovta dAA apket airo's
dato: de
l" l'
dAA#Acov katafiv dyduous. Tvros uv offv

ot}ros Tatepaoffs
Te
Kal hu)\epaarns yiyveral,
ovyyevs dataguevos. rav puv ov kal air
j.
T
&ceive vrxm abrov juice kai Tatepaark
d
kai d'AAos Ts, Tte kal 6avuaord kTAffrtovra Jh.
C
kai oikeiTnT. kai port, ox 6Aovr,

Te
dit}\ig
&tos eitely, xopieoffat dAA#Aov o8 outp:
dis
kal
||
xpvov, BareNobvres her dAA#Aoy
of
i.
lov offroi elow, xotev eirety
av
rifle:
of
oi'8'
6
ovral offlot tap dAA#Aov yiyveoffat. oilfie"

Tw dipolotov avior O
&v
yp 86&ete Tour elva.

* 0.
dis
ota, dpa Towrov veka repos roq) yap

ovvov oitos
tri PleydAms arovns. dAA dMo
T'
BovMouum kaTpov livX gotiv, 8%. 8%

of
6
era,
i
Tat eitely, awa pare era Kal

a:
6
D
Terau. Kai Tos air

v
t) karaketu0: ''}}
at
et
td.
"Hohaiotos, xov
{{
grwards {|0,
pyava, pouro.
d
80%eoffe, dwpotov, uiv trap' dAAo

800d
6
&off
6
Stob.: objtrecc.
Ry i
owevi 006v Mss.

*{ll
:
142
#'
SYMPOSIUM
*
# * embraces; these are the finest boys and striplings, .
is * for they have the most manly nature. Some say

they are shameless creatures, but falsely for their
#1.
#
:
i)
-
daring,
to
to
behaviour due not shamelessness but
is
"
::
manliness, and virility, since they are quick

70
to
of
welcome their like. Sure evidence this the
is
on
T' fact that reaching maturity these alone prove
So
be
public career when they come
to
men.
to in
*
a
*
no
## man's estate they are boy-lovers, and have
2 wiving and getting children, but
in
natural interest
""'*
'... are quite Contented IvTogether Unwedded all

of to
their days. any rate born

at
this sort
A
man
is
willing
be
boys man,
of
of
or
lover the mate

to
a
W6" eagerly greeting his own kind. Well, when one
of
be
he
boy-lover any
of
or
themwhether lover
&
on a
d' other sort--happens his own particular half, the

them are wondrously thrilled with affection and
of
#
two
#
be
intimacy and love, and are hardly

to
induced
leave each other's side for single moment.
to
These are they who continue together throughout

0"#*
s
life, though they could not even say what they

one another. No one could imagine this
of
would have
be
the mere amorous connexion,

or
that such
to
y? alone could be the reason why each rejoices

in
the
other's company with eager zest: obviously
so
#y
a
...
wishing for something else that

of
is
the soul each

cannot express, only divining and darkly hinting
it
#
'what wishes. Suppose that, they lay together,

as
it
*"
Hephaestus should come and stand over them, and

? it,
showing his implements" should ask: What

is
good mortals, that you would have

of
70%
one another
''
i.e. his anvil (Od. viii. 274), bellows, tongs, and hammer
*
(Il. xviii. 372 foll., 474 foll.).

4:3
-
|
PLATO
|
* *
>
/
*
5
et *
dropobvtas avroils tdAw
~.
yevobat; kai
*
I
polT0
* * * a *
A.
>
ye
th
*
Ap
5
tobe tuffvuette, t) avr yevodal
in
th
e/
W
w
/
5
/
|| || ||
pAvata AA#Aois, diate kal vkta kal ju"
E p") droMetteobal dAA#Acov;
5
yp Towtov
ni
el
* * * *
|
5
jus ovvtiat kal
:
6vuette, 6Aao ovudhvangal els"
ey a2 3/ ep er
3
*
*
*
avr, coote ov
5
v
Ult
Ovtas eva yeyovval kai os
8
G"
T
* e/ 3/ * * |$0
Zire, vta, kowh dubotpovs 'fiv,
|
'" Kl|
dis &va
*
di
*
6
c/
w
/
2
>
[f
&retv droffdvmte,
6
/ by
at
"Abov
8
* ket
* * duri
elva kouvi Tevete 6pte Toffo'''',
ei
&va d'AA'
* a a. *\ a
w
Will
kai gapket juv
w
5
*
*
du
&pre
0.
Towrov Txnte Tair ||r,
o:23'
*/ c/
els
rt oft
!'
&v
|
i.
as
dkovo topwev apwmffein

*
ll.
w
/
"
du
haven Bov}\duevos, dAA dTexvs olor

Tu
&AAo
*
A.
3.
-
-

v
TAat dpa teffijuel, list,
t Gw
dknkoval Tobro
6
* *
w
k
eX6v kai ovvrake's T60 pouvgo 8voiy Whe
&
' t
yevoffat.
pe,
3rt
do ori T at
T
ovTo yop
To)
atto", doxala #8
"I'
or
To
* * apxata *
n
e/
3.
v
0%
airn kal juev
jv
%uv Aot to 6Aov

kai Tp Toil!
*/ 3/
w
!
193 &riffvuig
#Tru6vutkal vd.
6td.&et pos voua. "I'me }
i
s
!
dotep Ayo, juev. vvvi
Ou
88
Bud Thy doud"

&v
* *
.
*TCdi.
/
too 6eo5, kadtep 'Apk

"I'
8.9kio 6muev T *
:
|
5
/
*
&
5T Aakeapovicov.
* #68os offv &otiv, |
w
&
a'.
w
kautot duev Tps Tovs 6eows, 6tos kal "go

u
*/
A.
#ate00 hth
w
8taoxtoffmoueffa, kal Tepituev xovres dioT"

6
"I
e
*
w
karaypav kretvnouvo,
or
*
ev
rats Aa's
*
".
e/
/
(907%
Templouvot Ts divas, yeyovTes 9-all"
kat
"T"'s.
3.
XpV
e
Alomat. dAAd Towrov veka Tavr dvpa

*
ef
''.
A.
|
ra.
TapakeMeteoffat evoe'8eiv Tepi 6eos, "...'

t a
j."
B uv khyouev, Tv B Txouev, "Ep"
dis
&
144
SYMPOSIUM
W. that in their perplexity he asked

and suppose
them again: Do you desire to be joined in the
* closest possible union, so that you shall not be
1 * divided by night or by day ? If that is your craving,
# I
am ready to fuse and weld you together in a
# single piece, that from being two you may be made
t one; that so long as you live, the pair of you, being
" as one, may share a single life; and that when you
# die you may also in Hades yonder be one instead
of two, having shared a single death. Bethink

yourselves your heart's desire, and you
...
this
if
if
is
be
will quite contented with this lot. No one on

hearing this, we are sure, would demur
or
to
it
# 15 # *
be
would found wishing for anything else: each

allhe
would unreservedly deem that had been offered
*:
he
just what was yearning for the time, namely,

#.
joined and fused with his beloved that the
be
so
to
*
two might
be
The cause
made one.
this, that our original form Ty
of
all
is
it
described, #
a'
as
was have and we were entire and the

I
craving and pursuit that entirety /*

of
called Love.
by is
Formerly, said, one; but now

as
have we were
'' ** " -:
I
for
God,
all
dispersed
as
our sins we are the

Arcadians were by the Lacedaemonians"; and we
be
may well afraid that we are disorderly towards

if
be
Heaven we may once more cloven asunder and

&
go
those outline-carvings
of
may the shape

in
about
the tombs, with our noses sawn down the middle,
on
"and may thus become like tokens split dice.

of
of all
#Wherefore we ought exhort our neighbours

to
pious observance the gods, order that we

in
to
a
,
escape harm and attain

to
may bliss under the

Probably referring
of
the dispersal Mantinea into

to
*
#
villages (Xenophon, Hell. foll.).

in
2.
385 B.C.
v.
vol. L 14.5
"
v.
PLATO
e w w * * w o r -
iyeudov kai otpatmyds. unbels vavria Tpat
A. 5 * * *
Tro. * Tpattel vavria,
/8' *
6atus 6eois dTex86veral
a ?
qbot yp Yevousyo taxMayvres T fle &A.
* * o Kat / * *
Kal t 70%
evpioogev Te Kai vtevue6a Tos Tatwko's
/* ev * * *
huetpous autw, Tv vv dAiyou *towoffat.

dis putA.
w
/
e
Sn
/
"Epvtuaxos kaouq,8v Tv Myol,
A
uot 5Tod
A
W
!
5
?d" yi \
Ilavaaviav kai Ayddova Ayo toos uv
*
C
* -
A.
A.
3
Kai oitou Tovtov Tvyxdvovow vtes kai elaiv
||
|
3/ -
w
/
dTepot Tiv fow dippeves Ayo
#Kaff
6
yaye
* * ov
w
w
-
dTvtov Kal divpv Kat yvyatkov, 6T orals
5
i,
in
j
* 3/
Tw
huv eiatuov yevotto,

yvos creMgaud
et
* * * *
w
Tv pota kal Tv Tatwkw Tv airo5 &kaoTo
't
.
a -
3.
5
v
f
eis
/
*
/
el 5
Tiju dipxalav Toi";
* divov.
to 3
Txot * date}\6v
*
70'
>
th
/
dpuatov, dvaykalov kai Tv vv Tapvrov
5/ * * DOW
/
Tov *yyvrd eival Touro earl Tatk
6
Tao dowo* Tov
that
* *
t
v
rvXev kata voiju avr webvkrov.
of
D
ri
*
6
*
"Epo'.
0
0
w
airtov 6ew *wavobytes Bukaios

v
* 5uvotuev
...
*
e-
"liff
&
*
,
T Tapvt. jus TMetaza dvivnow
Te
6s
v
eis
*
'g
w

eis
/
-
olketov dyov, Kai
T
tetra ATas ueylar'

I"
e-
*
'...'.
f
/
*
Trapxetat, judov Tapexogvov

* 7ps fleo's
''
/
eis
6
S
8etav, kataotijo jus Tijv doxalav fow
as
*
" l:
lagduevos uakaptovs kai ejaiuovas Totmoat.
* t
h
2/
'ph
r
E
*
Oros, pm, Epv&iwaxe, us A

us Ayos
3
d5
"T
d5
*
'.
*
Tept "Eporos,
'
otep
',
dAAotos ads.
d
a.
kaiw
w
kopobjoys airw,
u)
eBeijnv Gov, iva

| *
'ake
Aourov drovoogev kaoros pet, uAAoy
Ti
'#'
3:
of
krepos 'Aydflow yp kal Xokprms Aoto.

E
'AAAd Tetoouai ool, n Q. hval Tv 'E'

Ji
Kal
tli
p.
w
A jaos opin.
#oof?
,
"
playov kat yap plot Aoyos

o5
ovv8m Xokpret Ay6vl Be"

u
Te
ka:
146
SYMPOSIUM
gallant leadership of Love. Let none in act oppose

himand it is opposing him to incur the hate of
Heaven: if
we make friends with the god and are
reconciled, we shall have the fortune that falls to
few in our day, of discovering our proper favourites.
And let not Eryximachus interrupt my speech with a
comic mock, and say I
refer to Pausanias and
| Agathon; it may be they do belong to the fortunate
few, and are both of them males by nature; what
mean isand this applies
to
the whole world
o
...
men and womenthat the way bring happiness itsto

give our love
to
true fulfilment:
to let to
our race
is
every one find his own favourite, and
so
revert
~
be
primal thing all,
of
to If
his estate. this the best

* *
all
the nearest approach acts open
us
among
to
it
now must accordingly be the best choose; and

to
is,
find favourite whose nature exactly

to
that
is
a
our mind. Love the god who brings this

to
is
he
about; fully deserves our hymns. For not only

he
present bestow the priceless boon

of
in
the does
he
bringing our very own, but also supplies

to
us
this excellent hope for the future, that we will

if
*
duty
he
supply the gods with reverent will restore

##
help
us
our ancient life and heal and into the

us
to
happiness
of
the blest.
"...
There, Eryximachus, Love,

on
my discourse
is
#
As
different sort from yours. besought you,

of
a
I
it,
no
sport
in of
to
make comic for we want hear what

say their turnI rather mean
'...
the others will

other two, since only Agathon and Socrates are
'
.
left.
*
Well, will obey you, said Eryximachus, for

I
,
enjoyed your speech. Had not reason

to in
fact
I
Agathon
in
prowess
of
know the Socrates and

147
PLATO
ovai irepi to epcoTiKa, ttovv av e<f>of}ovp.r)v pvr)
wnopy\au>ai Xoytov Sia to 7roAAa Kal TravroZwrra.

elpijodai' vvv Se op,cos dappco.
Tov ovv liWKpdrt] elirelv KaAco? yap avros
194 rjycoviaai, cu 'Epvi;lp,axe- ei Se yevow ov vvv iytb
elp.i, p,dXXov Se urtos ofi iiaopLCu, eWiSav Kal 'Aya-
Ocov eiTrr], ev /cai p,aX av <f>of$oZo Kal iv navrl eirjs
wcnrep eyd) vvv.
Qapp-aTTew fiovXei pie, u> HwKpares, elTreiv tov
'AydOcova, Iva dopv^r/dco 8t,d to o'leadai to deaTpov
TrpoaSoKLav p.eydXrjv e\eiv cos ev epovvTos ep,ov.
'JLmXrjop.cov pievTav etrjv, co 'Ayddcov, eliretv
B tov TiCOKpaTT], el I8cbv ttjv orjv dvopelav Kal p,eya-
Xocjjpoovvrjv dvafialvovTOS em tov OKplfiavTa pieTa.
tcov VTTOKpiTwv, Kal fiXet/javTOS ivavTia tooovtco
deaTpcp, p,eXXovTOS em8eieadai oavTov Xoyovs,
Kal oi3S' ottcolttiovv eK-nXayivTOS , vvv olrfdeirqv
oe dopvPydrjoeodai, eVe/ca. rjp,cdv oXiycov dvdpcoTrcov.
Tt Se, co Tid)KpaTs; tov 'Ayddcova <f>dvai, ov
Swot; p.e ovtco deaTpov p.eoTov i]yfj, toaTe Kal
dyvoelv, oti vovv eôvTi oXlyot, ep.<f>poves ttoXXcov
d<j>povcov <f>ofiepcoTepoi ;
Ov KaXws Troioi-qv, cpdvai tov TicoKpaT-q,
p.evTa.v
C a> 'Ayddcov, Ttepl gov ti eya> dypoiKov 8odcov
dXX' ev ol8a, oti el now eVrtrôi? ovs r/yolo 00-
cboiis, paXXov av avrcov <f>povTlôis f\ tcov ttoXXcov
dXXd pvt] ovx outoi ij/xely cop.ev r)p.els p.ev yap
148
SYMPOSIUM
love-matters, I should have great fears of their
being at a loss for eloquence after we have heard it
in such copious variety : but you see, my confidence
is unshaken."
"
Whereon Socrates remarked : Your own per
formance, Eryximachus, made a fine hit : but if you
could be where I am now or rather, I should say,
where I shall be when Agathon has spoken you
would be fitly and sorely afraid, and would be as
hard put to it as I am."
"
You want to throw a spell over me, Socrates,"
"
said Agathon, so that I may be flustered with the
consciousness of the high expectations the audience
has formed of my discourse."
"
Nay, Agathon, how forgetful I should be,"
"
replied Socrates, if after noticing your high and
manly spirit as you stepped upon the platform
with your troupe how you sent a straight glance
at that vast assembly to show that you meant to
do yourself credit with your production, and how
you were not dismayed in the slightest if I should
now suppose you could be flustered on account of a
few fellows like us."
"Why, Socrates," said Agathon, "I hope you |
do not always fancy me so puffed up with the play
house as to forget that an intelligent speaker is
more alarmed at a few men of wit than at a host
of fools."
" No,
Agathon, it would be wrong of me indeed,"
"
said Socrates, to associate you with any such
clownish notion : I am quite sure that on finding
yourself with a few persons whom you considered
clever you would make more account of them than
of the multitude. Yet we, perhaps, are the latter ;
149
PLATO
* w * 6. * w ey * *
Xaipeiv, kal rob duoov ye T duotov biolov yiyve
ev */ 2 / * 5 > ey a.
bapwev dvvatov elva, dAA 6pacos Te okey

C u6a, un jus atratifam T vv Aeyduevov.
/ /
d a.
N
a. e/ e
latpurc, haplev, &veka Tijs vyweias hi}\ov.
*. * x/
Okobu kai i vyiela biXov; IIdvv ye. Ei d.

$thov, &veka Tov. Nai. Dixov ye ruvos 6
* /
Tiff
eitep dicoMov6 foet Tpoffew duoAoyig. IIdi
* a. * ep
*/
*
bi /
a
ye. Okov kai kelvo \ov otal vk
$4Mov; Nai. 'Ap ov offic dvdykm dwette
* ep
A.
w
5
*
jus oros ivtas,

5
e
/
ddukoffat ti Tuva dpxiji
5
n
d'AAo biXov, dAA #et
n
ovkr tavoto
et
#
* * e/ * ey
>
rdw
*
5
or Tpa) Tov biXov,
of
excelvo veka kal #AA
dAM

haplev tvra elva; 'Avdykm. Tobro
6.
biXa
D
ea * 3f */
3.
ev
w
jus
e
/
*
T
earav Aya), pur) dAa Tavra eitope,
&
6
keivov veka (biwa elvau, digtep etcoMa drra vta

** * a ca *
3.
dis
Tptov,
5
88
#A

e
T*
aToti, &#atar,
6
ketvo dAmfls
#
6
a.
e/
p
w
*
e

1.
eart biXov. vvoijoopwev yap obtool. 6tav' Tis
Tt
* A-, *
otvtep viote Tatip viv duri
*
to
Tept MAob touffraw,

* * *
/
Tvtov Tv GAAov xpmud Tow Tpotluff, rovo0 8)

d
* *
*
ros veka to Tv viv Tepi Tavrs hyetotal dpa

* * *
/
a
&v
Trept to\Aot towotto; alofl

et
kal &AAo
T.
otov
E
airv kvetov Tetokra,

to
vouro dpa wept Mob

* * *
w
oivov, eitep jyotro

dw
Tovoir toto Tv viov

* * *
uv; &#m.
/
w
Ti
5
*
5
A
Ta
odioeuv; Okov kai dyyetov,

* * s
*
>
/
*
*
2
e
"Ap ov Tte

oivos vein; IIvv ye.

&v
(5
6
*
*
o6v tepi TAetovos Toweitau, kAuka kepauav

* *
w
y
Tv viv Tv airob, o6 Tpets koti Mas oivov tw

:
Stephanus:
&v
3rav Mss.
6
*
58
!
LYSIS
ovyye" and becomes a friend to the like,

thus the like
is,
which we said was impossible. There however,
#e are:
:
further point which we must examine,
if
we are
a
ugo,
not
find our present argument mere deception.

to
a
is we
of
M. Medicine, say, friend for the sake health.is
El # Yes. Then health friend also: Certainly. And a a
friend, something.
of
for the sake so
it
is
is
if
it
:
Tuy05. #
And that something friend,
to
if
Yes,
is
it
is
II:
a
Q,
our previous agreement. Quite so.
to
t conform
&
ral
its
part also,
on
Then will that something be,
a
friend for the sake of friend Yes. Now are
a
on
weary ourselves with going
it'
We
in
to
10.
not bound
way,
this unless we can arrive some first at
#
#d
on
keep leading
us
principle which will not from
ill
another, but will reach

r
the
to
One friend
Too One original friend, for whose sake all the other
i.
So
be
be
to
ein' things can said friends We must.

you see what am afraid ofthat all the other
tra
I
#
of
as
things, which we cited friends for the sake

sil:
be
that one thing, may deceiving many

us
like
so
t;"
it,
be
while that original thing may

# y'
of
phantoms the
veritable friend. For suppose we view the matter
*
highly thing,
as
in
Toli, thus: when man values the

a
father who prizes his son above

of
}
common case
a
a
his
man, for the sake

of
#
possessions, will such

all
al: placing his son before everything, value anything

|
on
Tolk else highly For instance,

at
the same time

:
he
learning that had drunk some hemlock, would

jy
he
value wine highly believed would save

of if
his he
it
yy
he
- son's life Why, course, said. And the

:
!
* 10%
Certainly.
iy
vessel too which contained the wine

:
he
no
value,
at
in
1ay? Now does make distinction that

of
moment, between cup earthenware and his

t
a
J
%
pints
of
son,
or
own between three wine and his

*
59
PLATO
e a * *~ * s/ - e a' v 3
viv; (38 Taos yet. Toa
) totarm orovn) of
earl Towrous otiv otrovaouvn, ti Tos vekd to
Tapaokevagouvois, dAA t keiv,
off
* veka Tvt.
/
towara trapaakevd'etat.
td
220 owy 6Tu To)\kt:
dis
ye Kal
Ayouev, Tepi ToMAob Totovue6a Xpvolov
*
w
dpyptov dAAd u) ovv oijra
T
uAAov
to
3/ a ev
w
w
a
s
*
5
3
/
5
*
d'An6s xi), dAA* &ceiv otiv Teph Travrs Totov
w
3/
e
*
div
havi v, 5Tov veka kal Xpvaiov Kal
ple6a,
6
dp5
/
Tapaokevagueva Tapaokevgetat.
r
Tvta * *
/
oros bigouev; IIdvv ye. Okov kal *Tepi e/
Toi
a.
a
*
e
3
e
/
*
avrs Ayos;
60
$thov yap baptev biXa elval july
e/ S.A
veka bimov Tuvos tpov, diplatt batvue6a Ayovres /
e
/
#A
1
B
ar biXov *T) vrt kivvvevei kelvo air *

8
elval,
*
tgal affrat Meyueva buxial teNevtw.
ai
els

* *
*
ye
oijroos,
T
Kvvvevel pm, xetv. Okov
biXov Tuvs veka hixov otiv; 'AAq6.
off
vt. bi}\ov
* ey
w
w
5
w
dTijAAaktat,
6)
Toto uv 5AA hi}\ov twds veka

ui
8
*
A
:
s. Tw
5
T 1# f
Tw
5
*
5
*
2
biXov biXov elva' * d'AA'

*
pa
*
dyadv ott
*.M : 8
3.
3/
w
Mov; "Euotye boket. "Ap ov 8wd *
t*
* >/ * * kakv *,
3/
>
el 5
*
dyaffv ht)\etral, kal xet (5e dy."

* Toudov vrov
C
* *.
s

a
vv &Ayouey, dyadoo kai kakoff kal uire dyaffod
8
8
r.
ire kakob, 88o Aewb6ein,

T
kakw ctobw
"
w
#
drA6ot kal unevs
* bdtrouto unite oduatos ufr
..
*

livXijs uTe Tw dAAov, baptev aird kaff aird y
6
&
* * -
>
ore kaka elval oit dyadd, dpa

du
Tre o8v juiv : '. . al

w
r w
Xpiouou ein
/
dyadv, dAA xpmotov yeyovos

* *.,
w
*

* Yap "bey ju
BA
&r
eim; into
"
other
el
/
2
8)
&v
oBeuts diffe}\ias Beoiue6a, kai offTo

D
* **
Tr
tpou Hermann rpp Mss,
*
)'.
5t
Socrates here strangely confuses the cause (T

'
*
#
of(T.
he
with the object carefully.

'
in
view &vek row), which

distinguished 'W
in
the case medicine (219 A).

60
LYSIS
W
all
gmov'
.
Or may we perhaps state it thus:

son? such
seri" Concern not entertained for the actual things
areis
*|5"t for
an:) which applied something, but
of
the sake
all
for
noMs that something for whose sake the rest are
setting
of
applied know that we often talk
I
*
"'
on
value gold and silver but surely we are
:
re
for
all we
that; what
":
of
the truth the matter

no
|
nearer
rather value above everything the thingwhatever
befor whose sake gold and is
to
may prove
it
May we state
the
other commodities are applied.

3700.
T'
..
By
so?
we
all
means. Then shall not give the

it
|
all
speaking
In
of
of
lit?" same account friend? the
a
of
us
to
aM" things that are friends some for the sake

friend, we find ourselves uttering
# &
1% Other mere
a
be
reality friend appears
to
in
phrase; whereas

all
simply and solely the thing these so

in
which
So
he
called friendships terminate. appears,
it
| | | #
said. Then the real friend friend for the sake

is
a
nothing else that friend? True.

is
Of
a
we
have got rid

this, and
So
of
not for the

is
it
some friendly thing that the friend friendly.

of
is
Sake
now, the good friend should say so.
is
But
a
I
#
the bad that the good

of
And further, because

is
it
|| ||
as
loved"; let me state the case follows: there

is
which we have just been speaking

are
of
three things
neither good nor bad.
If
-good, bad, and what

is
of
but two these remained after evil had been cleared

|
contact with anything,

no
so
that
had
or it
away,
|
body any the other things

of
or
whether soul
we
count neither bad nor good themselves,

in
that
#
#y
?
be
that good would be

of
Would the result no use

_-
us,
but would have become quite useless thing

to
?
For
there were nothing left harm us, we should

to
#
noif
r)
of
car feel want any assistance; and thus we should

61
PIATO
* / cy w \ w > w 5 *
yvotto katn Nov 6tt vd T kakw tdya6v jyar.
Plev kai bouev, dis w
happakov v to 5 kakob T
dyabv, T 6 kakw v6omua vogiuatos 8 u
vros- ojv Bet w hapudkov.w
.w do oijra,- Tvk
* Te kal
bu}\etrat Tyaffv *-8wd t kakw job judov, Tv uera#5
-
w > *
6vrov too kakob Te kal Tayaffoi, avr 8 avrot.
t/ * * * */ */ *
6s,
5 ev
veka oveutav Xpeiav xet; "Eourcev, 8

*/ */ * *
T
et
e/
juv ketvo,
eis5
oiros xetv. T dpa biXov
6
T
re\evra Tvra * AAaveka &rpov blov*/ bha
E
*/ * *
/
1
38
&baptev eival ketva-o6v 8
[]' Towrous otkey.
*
p
*
76
Tara uv yp hi\ov veka hi}\a kkAmrat,
T
8
vt. biXov tv tovavriov *tourov haiveral
* * Trebuks.
>
w
/
-

c
el 5
$ov yp juty dwebvn
dis by
f
T t
/ B\
x6pob veka
*/ */ *
,
w
-&ouk, &off juv hi}\ov.

5
&x6pv drA6ot, okrt,

5/ - */ ty
dis
/
ye
/
O5 uot Bokei, &bm, vv Ayetat. IIrepov,
*
w
Tps Ats, v
#v
to
- &yd, - kakv dwAmrat, o6

3
*/ */ -
reviv
-
38
8
#AA
221 tv otal ov6
38&
Bahv o8 d'AAo 38
ow8v Tw
w
f
Towavrov; Teivn uv arat, dvtep div6potoi
te
* *
)
-
|| s
/
plvrot BAaBep ye; kal 8tha

6 o
j,
kai TAAa 600 ey *

w
ai e
T ow
87w
kai #AA
AAat trifluuiat, dAA
#AA kakai, &re toff
- * -
kakob droMoMTos; yeMotov ptmua,
ti
*\ * 6
w
if
*/
otal,
*
/
r
2
ToT &ota Tte tis yp o!8ev; #AA'

u
j
d.
*/ ey = y/ *
/
\
/
ye
4.
ov Te togev, rt kal vv at. Teuvovira 8Ad
'':#
Treo6a, ort #ydp; IIdvvye,
6
kal diffeAetoflav.
#
s
Okov kai Bahvra kai Tv dAAov Tv Totoray

Trvrov tuffvuovta otiv viote uv diffe}\iuals
s
B
*
6
BAaeps, viore
8
tuffvuetv, plmrepa;
(t
viote
-
-
/
Xbpa kak,
T
ye. Okov v dToMAvnTai

:
6,
om. Cornarius: Heindorf.

5
*
62
LYSIS
to face the fact that it was because of the bad
w"
3 * have
1(M).
felt such a friendly affection for the good,
that we
KGKOUT
! . since the good is a cure for the bad, while the bad
}S #
| is an ailment, and if there is no ailment there is no
jkt:
the good
for
of
not this the nature
Is
cure.
W"
| need
a
of
the bad by who are midway
us
beloved because
to
ans between the bad and the good, whereas separately

#
Apparently so,
and
no
its
for
of
own sake use
is
it
0.
?
;8
said. Then our friend,

#
which all the other in

he
:
10,
f 5
things terminatedwe called them friends for the

/
Mov
some other friendhas no resemblance to
of
Sake
*
*
6,46
these. For they are described friends for the
as
S.
friend: but the real friend appears
it to
of
##, sake
to
|have quite the opposite character; for we found

foe, and
no of
be
friend for the sake the foe

if
|
to
#1
a
el
we
friend, seems, any

be
removed have
it
#'s
should
ty
II:
judge by
he
say not, assented,

to
more. should
I
present argument. Tell me,

you, beg
Our
of
it I
I
or be
70),
went on, evil abolished, will impossible
*
is
if
any
#y feel hunger
or
to
longer thirst other such

f !,
hunger exist, long

as
Or will
so
90701 conditions men

?
and
animals exist, but without being hurtful

l
w
}
Kal
all
Thirst, too, and other desireswill these exist

dr
Without being bad, because the bad will have been
T
.
*
Or
/0, 0"
this ridiculous questionas
is
abolished
a
?
5
For
in
|to what will exist or not exist such case

a
?
w;
"
is all
Taff" who can tell? Yet

this, events, we do know
it at
things are now, possible for

as
that,
it. to
Idyv? man
a
by
feel
be
hurt,
to
as
hunger and also benefited

a
oloff.
You agree Certainly. And so, when man feels
he a
le'" thirst
?
or
sort, may
of
any other desire the have
*
$r!' that desire sometimes with benefit, sometimes
With harm, and sometimes with neither Quite so.
?
things abolished, there any reason

is
evil are
if
Now
63
PLATO
& ye un Tvyxvet vra kalc, Ti Tpooijket T.

* / 2 * 3f 3/
Karcots ovvatAAvg6av; O8v. "Eoovtat dpa. s

puire dyadal uite kakai tuffvuial kai v d.
GAntav T kak. Daiveraw. Olw re offv ot
pvra Towrov
off
artvuotivta *kai tuffvuel
de K.
* 5/ * 3/ *
w
5
2
&p pun bu)\eiv; Ok uovye 8orce?. "Eatov
scal Tv kakw dToMouvov, dis ouke, bi) rt.
3/ sy */ *
rw
w
ye
*
r
5
Nai.
jv
Ok div, kakw airtov
To
et
C
* v *
5
5
*
&v
5iX
di\ov elvat, ok
jv
tu
Towrov dToMouvov
A
biMo
/
yap droMouvns
* airias
repov tpq9. dvat
* * *
tf
kelvo elval,
off
airn
jv
jv
Tov airia. "Op
juiv
ye T
6s Ayets. Okotiv duo Rymtat biXol
kal bijnuev Tte
tu
%the kai vd. bid
T.
T.
v
t
uire dyaffv uite kakv
to
T
rakw dyaffor
bu)\eiv; 'AAnn. Nv ye, dis &ouke, 8
D
baiveral
ris
* airia* ro5* 3/
Te
dAA) (ht)\ety kai
Metaffat. "Eot:
bu
ty
Ap * ovy
s/
"l f
*
ovtt, anotep apti eAyouey,

A
#A
icev. T4 *
airia, kal
w
Tw
/
/
5
5
/

/
&tuffvula Tijs buxias &tuffvuotiv himoy
* *
-
a
o
earl Tourq tuffvuet real Tte 6tave/ tuffvuff,
ju, 6
*
4.
ris
Tw
8w
*
*
f
*
TpTepov Ayouev biXov elvat, 56Aos

diotep Toimua uakpv ovykeiuevov; Kuwvvete,
ye
tuffvuot,
T
ju
'AAAd *uvrov, eyd,

3
&#m.
* *
/
#,
ydp; Nai.
8>&v
* off
Tovtov tuffvuet. *
E
vees s/ 3.
w
w
5
*
*
P
o
du
off
T * eves doa biAov rceivov * s/ vees #,

A.
W
Eves yiyveral
5
off
du
B
Ti1
Aoket uot.
8
* dh.
apitat. Il
ov; To
3/
2
/
o8
e
5:
off, as oukev,
lov oikei.ov 8%
0.5
119s
:
djsTe
pos kai tuffvuta Tvyx6vel offoa,

* buMia kai
M
w
w
*
/
/
*
/
e
haivetal, Xuvebarmy.#,
te
Mevev scal Avou.

.
&
'' ".
Stephanus:
Tus
Mss.
r
*
i.e. things that are proper congenial

or
to
'
one.
1
64
C
LYSIS
'why the things
that are not evil should
pg
be abolished
|
along with the

evil? None.
So
that those desires
it)
y
which are neither good

nor bad will exist even
#|the bad things are when
abolished. Apparently. Now
is
... 14
possible for man, when
he
to it
desires and loves,

no
is
have friendly feeling

towards
he
'n' desires and loves think not. that which
Thus certain
I
'
|things will continue

be
to
il friendly,
Wy
seems, when
it
things are
**
abolished. Yes,
be
|if
It
*::
cannot that,
.
evil were the cause
of
thing being friendly,

a
thing should
be
friendly
to
'is abolished. For when cause

another when evil
abolished, that
is
a
"0
no
*
thing can longer exist, presume,

e?"'s cause. You are right. which had this
I
its
we
Now have agreed

the
#|hat friend has friendly feeling

for
a
something
and
of
because something; and we supposed,

just
"E:
then, that
it
was because
of
evil that what was

*::ither good nor bad loved the good.
True. But

now, seems, we make

y
it
out different cause of

a
|Wing and being

loved.
It
seems so. Can really

it
as
then, we were saying just now,

be
that desire
a is
of
friendship, and the desiring thing

he
cause
is
of to
#iend what which desires, and

it
any
so
at
is
|ime desiring; while our earlier

statement
all
bout friends was

mere drivel, like poem
a
ung out for

mere length
it,
It
he
looks like
?
#id. But still,

*: went on, the desiring thing
it I
desires
in
at
which deficient, does

is is
not
in it
Yes.
?
40"And the deficient

friend
to
that
a
which
it
is
Aft eficient? suppose so. And

I
it
becomes deficient
it of
that which
it
suffers deprivation. To be
a
So
is
r
e.
one's own belongings," seems, that

it
the
of
objects love and friendship and desire;

e
appears,
it
Menexenus and Lysis. They

WOL,
both
W
65
PLATO
Yue's dpa T)w

- / )
D >
et
* *
biXot
* -otvK d'AA#Aous,
-, * r *
bioet
K
oiketoi o 6 juv airots. out, didtmu. Kal
ey f * c * -, *
999 el & 6
tepos rpov etvvuet, jv 8
222 el -dpa - Tws
*/
eyd), a
*Q \
Tates,
/
p,
w
dy
offs * / Tote teuet
- off mpa
f
o8
epiMet, el un oikeis Tm T, pouvg) &twyxavey

d)v kard thu livXijv kata Tu Tijs livXi's #60s
# Tptovs elos. IIdvv ye, din
- d Mevevos"W
d 8 Avous otymoev. Elev, jv 3 eyd. To
8 oiketov dvaykalov juv

puv
*
divoet
*/ */ > - 3/ Tbavrat
-
quxeiv. "Eoukev, bm. 'Avaykalov dpa to yum.\
- -
oiq
- paori
- kai un Tpoortovro duxetoffat #70r
B Tw Travukw.
-w

3.
uv ov Avous kal Mev
/ e w f
evos uy's Taos tevevodtnv, 6M
d 8 Introffd)ms
tt Tijs jovs Tavtoata joblet xpdjuata. f
Kai yd, eitov, BovXuevos Tv Ayov ttak
'haoffat, El - too duotov
uv Tu T oiketov 8tabpet,
/ }
djs
Tu,
div
Myouev uol Boket, Avot
Te
kal Mev
&
B
eve, Tept biXov, otiv TaTv rvyxvel

et
| ''
- -
6
w
*\ e/
*
5
/
r
48tov -droaketv Toy'

o5
Te
Kai oiketov,
v
uotw
W
.
r
dis
to
Tpaffew Adyov, duolo kard

ot
5uotov
*
foy'

dxpmotov
T
T#v uotrnta xpmarov

jv
duo Aoyetver TAnupleMs. Boeoff - &y, offy,
s
C
8
/
\

&retr) diotep ue6%plew

* e/
ind rob Ayov, avy.
w
w
xop jacouev kai figev repv

/
oiketoy
Tu
elva. s
tob duotov; IIdvv ye. IIrepov obv kal

6oopew Tavri, kakw Mrpio'
T T
''
olketov
s:
T
etva, kak oiketov,

to
uv kakw
3:
)
dyad) ure dyaff u%re

to
kak's
8
dyadw,
dyadov wire kakv; Oros &#rmy
to
ute
abiov kaotov kdarq' oiketov elva. IIMy'
M||
66
LYSIS
| agreed. Then if you

two are friends to each other
by some natural bond you belong to one another.
| Precisely, they said. And in a case where one

#| person desires another, my boys, or loves him,
| he would never be desiring or loving or befriending
-
him, unless he somehow belonged to his beloved
| either in soul, or in some disposition, demeanour

"| Or cast of soul. Yes, to be sure, said Menexenus;
Lysis was silent. Very well, said
but
what
I
be :
by
to
some
us
jar nature has been shown

to
belongs
he
we
so,
It
thing needs must befriend. seems said.
}
Then the genuine, not the pretended, lover must

|
by
his favourite. To this Lysis

be
needs befriended
and Menexenus gave but faint nod assent; allof
a
| | |
While Hippothales,
his delight, turned
in
manner
colours.
Of
reviewing the argument,

then, with the design
of
So
proceeded: any difference between

If
there
is
I
what belongs like, me, Lysis

to
and what
it
seems
|
is
Menexenus, that we might give some account

and
''
the
meaning friend. But like and

of
if
of
to
"belonging are the same, not easy get

it
is
our former statement, that the like

rid
of
useless
is
|
they have likeness; and

to
as
far
so
in
the like
to
|
be
admit that the useless friendly would gross

is
a
|
So
how we agree now, said, since our

if
mistake.
I
quite tipsy, say that the

to
us
argument has made

|
belonging and the like are two different things

P
we
By
means. Then shall maintain that the good

all
itself belongs every one, while the bad

|
to
alien
is
P
Or
does the bad belong bad, good

to
to
the the the

good
to
good, and what neither nor bad what

is
is
neither good nor bad They agreed that the last

So
three pairs belong together. here again, boys,

67
PLATO
3/ * / * * ev w * *
dpa,
D 5 jv yd, 6* Tates, toa. Tptov Ayovs
/8 r
oils
* 3. *
dateBaxue6a Tept buxias, eis towTovs eiotett
T)
scapev yp dukos T diko kai kakos
* * 3/ w *
p
dya
5
5
c
a
*
r
dyads
Tif o
rak) o8v #trov biXos Tat
Twd
*. */
T w
w
3/
>
w
/
66). * "Eoukev, din. * 8, dyaffv kai
*
*\ *
w
x/
5
5
c

*
v
olketov Tatw bouev elvau, AAo dyados
Tv
*
\
T dyad* uvov bMos; Ildvv ye.* "AAAd uy
ow 5
scal toT ye obdueffa e Myat jus avtovs.
#
guvno.6e; Meplvueffa.
* *
T
T Ayo;
f
Xpmaatuea
v
ov rt
E
65Mov
#
6T
ow8v; 6ouat obv, diotep
oi
v
oodbol Tols
td
Bukaotmpious, eipmuva &tavra dvateutdaa

*
w
of e
*
/
ei
oie
a
offat. yp ute bu)\ovuevov unite (bobvres
.
dyadol
of e oi
wive
of
Ta oi
uffre uovo
* dvuovot
*/
unite -
pite
A.
A.
c/
5
oiketot unite AAa ga * Bue}\m}\v6apley
5
to
f
r
o
yp &yoye uuvnual Tob TAffflovs-dM

Towtow hi}\ov otiv, yd) uv officer xo
Ti et
umbv
Ayo.
Tajra
v)
etyov dAAov jn Tuvd ty

v
eitdiv
3
223
Tpea#vrpov kivetv. kra, diotep 6aiuovs Tives,
*
'
o
oi c
TpogeX6vres Tatayaoyot,
Te
Tob Mevevov
6
kal Tob Avotos, xovres avtv Tolls deXbows,

&
Tapeka Xovy kai

avTows oikae driva"
kAevow
* * *
A.
5
"ptov
at To
yap jue's
fiv
%m dib.
* uv obv kal
w
Tepteottes teib)
of
scal Tows
* atmMavvouev.
*".
5
6
f
2
8w
''.
|
AA
o8v bpvrtkov judov, dAA
38 5to80p8.api'ovres
66
|
| l: 5. '' #'.
jyavktovy Sv Trov kAovv, dAA
Te
kal
of
kovy juv broTetraoktes Tots Epuaious *dropol

v
B.
*
e
Tooahpeoffat, ov airw
3,
elva. itTm6vres
&:
.
The word belonging seems throw some light

it to
on
friend, but even we distinguish from like

if
turns
it
68
LYSIS
'
I
fly" have dropped into the very statements
said, we
at: regarding friendship which we rejected at first ; for
; :) the unjust will be as much a friend of the
| "Just, and the bad of the bad, as the good of the

#00d.' So it seems, he said. And what is more,
*'I:
we say
(ll
if we that the good and the belonging are the
same, cannot avoid making the good friend only
a
To
the
be
good. sure. But this again, you know,

is to
1"
which we thought we had disabused

of
view
a
do do
Ourselves; you remember, you not We do.
?
we
#|
So
what more can with our argument?

:
Obviously, think, nothing. can only ask you,

I
accordingly, like the professional pleaders

in
the law
#| perpend
of
courts, the whole what has been said.

to
|
neither the loved nor the loving, nor the like nor
If thethe
good
so all
'6" unlike, nor the nor the belonging, nor
we
rest that have tried turnthey

in
are
}
one, any
to
fail
I,
many that for remember more

friend,
of
at
Well, none these am loss for

if
is
a
a
say.
to
anything further
up
Having thus spoken,

to
was minded stir

I
Somebody else among the older people there;

when, like spirits from another world, there
came
Menexenus and Lysis: they
of
the tutors
us
upon
Were bringing along the boys' brothers, and called
out
go home; for was getting

to
them the order

to
it
we
late. At first tried, with the help the group

of
| |
around us, drive the tutors off; but they took

to
on
all, and went angrily calling,

us
in of
at
as no
notice
before, their foreign accent. We decided that
|
drop too much

so at
they had taken the festival

a
customers;
be
might we gave
in
and awkward
just good and bad, and therefore
be
as
indifferent
to
as to
Out
significance friend.
of
Just remote from the moral

69
PLATO
a. w / ey > */ 3/ >
(it
eAoauev Tijv ovvovatav. uos 3 &yoye jm
tovtov airw, Nv uv,
#v
ka
Te
yd, Avon
&
8
f
Meveve, katayAaotov yeyvaluev yd te, ypoi
* *
2
divip, kal juets. podot yp ote dtvvres
dis
*
a'
e
*
\
\
/

*
olue6a jue's d'AA#Acov biXow elvai-kai u yp
* 3/ ef >p
6w
*
juiv tmutoito
*
{
/
Te v
Tu
otiv biXos olot
6

yevue6a evpeiv.
70
LYSIS
!
07. to and broke up our party.
them, However, just
| as they were moving off, I remarked: To-day,
p
. Lysis and Menexenus, we have made
ridiculousI, an old man, as well as you.
ourselves
#
For
these others will go away and tell how we believe
I count myself
|:
y
we arefriends of one anotherfor
is,
with youbut what a friend we have not
0.
in
yet
discovering.
in
succeeded
71
|
SYMPOSIUM
THE Symposium of Plato holds an acknowledged place

among those few masterpieces of human art which
unveil and interpret something of the centrah mystery
of life. It has been a source of light and inspiration
to successive ages since the revival of learning,
and is revisited by the same reader at different
times of life with fresh wonder and praise. Like
other great works of art, it provides its own intro:
duction; so perfectly is the scene set and presented
that even at the distance of twenty-three centuries
we are able to catch the various tones of the speakers,
first in the ripple of their casual talk, and then in
the flow of their competitive eloquence. But while
the modern reader can hardly miss the main effect
of the simple narrative, as it develops the lively
drama in which the sparkle of satiric wit is made to
enhance the glow of high poetic rapture, there are
one or two points to which attention may be usefully
directed, in order that the work may convey the
fullest possible measure of its meaning and value.
Its theme is the passion of personal love, so often
the subject or occasion of literary art, but rarely
examined in its moral aspect with any true perception
or profit. Love is here treated with a sense of
its
universal importance and with reach and certainty

a
insight which
do
not appear any other

of
of
in
the
74
-
great religious or moral teachers. This confident
mastery was one of the extraordinary powers of
Socrates which Plato at this stage of his writing

was intent on portraying; it was one of the strangely
memorable impressions which the elder man left
his simple, inquisitive
his
spite
of
in
On associates,
In
ignorance.
of
UM manner and his constant avowals
his
he
more positive moods described himself
of
Some
dpl" lover,
of
of in
an
inveterate the sense declared

as
a
and
the great energy

worshipper
of
will devout
t
its
nys' Nature which various workings amongst men

in
by
the general name Eros. Often

of
irati" was called
would feign, his playful, paradoxical way,
to
in
he
armi'
on
iffere: put himself level with ordinary sensual men,

a
and
by
discussing their viewsif they had any, and

Lik
state themwould endeavour to lead

to
int" Consented
be on
the
to
his own conception love, where

of
talk
it
send
on
approached the loftiest and most

to
ature) was
thought. For the very purpose
of
plane
of
akes! serious
to
telling contrast with the common attitude the

len
#
a
of
he
wh: matter, would make humorous use the terms

to a
eff: ofordinary love-passion produce suddensurprise

of in
a
hearers, when they found that his own pursuit

his
lift
de' intellectual refinement through friendly
or
affectionate
intercourse was independent the outward attrac
of
-
e
So
explanation may perhaps

of
#|tions much
of
sense.
necessary, and may just suffice, for right under
#
be
in a
this dialogue.
f' his banter with Alcibiades
of
standing
6,
|
the great dramatic excellences

of
of
It
one
is
.
*
he
how Socrates adapted his

us
Plato that shows

of
tone and language the characters his hearers

to
it
stages argument exposi

of
or
his
to
fit
and the several

#|tion. This ready sense the daily lives and thoughts
of
no
less than the half-logical,

his
companions,
#!
of
75
|
half-mystical bent of his energetic mind, led him
to the knowledge that, however easily or completely
he might have freed his own faculties from the
nfusing trammels of carnal appetite, the mass of
mankind was subject to the sway of bodily beauty;
and that no theory of love could be satisfactory
hich did not take due account of this elemental
act of human nature. So he seizes this favourable
oment in the talk at Agathon's party to suggest
that visible beauty is the most obvious and distinct
reflection in our terrene life of an eternal, im
mutable Beauty, perceived not with the eye but
with the mind. He preaches no avoidance of the
contest with appetite, but rather the achievement
of a definite victory over the lower elements of
love-passion, and the pursuit of beauty on higher
and higher levels until, as in a sudden flash,
its
ultimate and all-rewarding essence revealed.
is
.
the theory
of
His modest attribution
to
his
in
,
structress, the wise woman Mantinea,
of
probably
is
|| |
indicate that we are passing beyond
to
meant
Socratic thought and listening really
of
the bounds
|
Plato; but quite possible and reasonable
to to
it
is
#.
suppose that Socrates relating the actual
is
# #
his
own cogitation after

of
results discussion with

a
some revered and impressive counsellor.

'' * ' i.
In
this dialogue the theory only adumbrated

is
for an exalted moment convivial talk: its far-

in in in
reaching developments psychology and meta-

physics are set forth the Republic, Phaedrus,
Phaedo, and elsewhere. Here, through the glow
poetic speculation, we get glimpse, not merely
of of
logical theory, but whole philosophy

of
or
a
||
'.
way
of
lifea progress towards complete enlighten

76
|
--~~~
NIUM INTRODUCTION TO THE SYMPOSIUM
all
who have opened
led
to
commended which is
his
ment
see that they walk
in
mple: their eyes enough the
to
ignorance. stages, seems, may
#)
The final
of
it
Tom shades
too difficult even for Socrates himself com
to
be
mass
beau'' prehend: thus with many hesitations and apologies

the
inquiry seeks
of
to
isfact: great master communicate
thoughta wondering
of
eme: thrilling adventure his

a
the general idea
or
of
vour' recognition immaterial
"
all
sugg|form which presides over similar appearances
in
the
disi, material world. An absorbing thought, we are

told, kept him standing
mal,
the street for some time

in
in
he
joined dinner-party
he
ye" before
so
the here shows

to :
of
something his endeavours reach the summit

of
of us
|
absolute being
of
in
realm
to
vem wisdom, and move

a
beyond the utmost flight philo

ents
of
which perhaps
is
:
#|sophy. But the main thesis seeks

to
show how
sh,
sensual charm we may

of
through the slavish trance

pass with ever wakening and widening powers
)
to
the
best and freest activity our faculties, the con
of
his
#!
ob' templation invisible, eternal verity. The lowest

of
linked with the highest; and noteworthy

re:"|
it
is
)
is
fix
eulogy
of
to
that Alcibiades Socrates serves

on
practical beginnings the progress,

of
on' attention the

by
ad: demonstrating that rare intellectual communion

a
on
be
of
may built the defeat mere sensual aims.

wi'
n
its
proportions design
of
and the texture

its In
the
on' style the Symposium stands out from even the
of
: s'
as
writings
of
of
best Plato marvel artistic ease

a
m, and grace. Translations have frequently succeeded

presenting his vivid picture
of
the social manners

his his of in
time, the beauty

of
of
the place and and much

eloquence; but they have failed

to
transmit
of
brilliant characterization the individual

#'
style An
of
their addresses.
in
speakers the
77
|
attempt has been made here to indicate in different
sorts and degrees the euphuistic influence of
Sicilian rhetoric in the speeches of Phaedrus, Pau
sanias, and Agathon; the medical college manner
of Eryximachus; the racy, extravagant humour
of Aristophanes; the lofty solemnity of Diotima;
and the frank, unbosoming tone of Alcibiades.
The date of the opening conversation is about
400 B.C.; the banquet itself was in 416 B.C. Apollo
dorus, whom we meet also in the Phaedrus (59), was
noted for his enthusiastic attachment to Socrates
in his last years; Aristodemus, who related to him
the story of the banquet, was the Master's intimate
of an earlier time. Agathon, the brilliant and
courteous host, has just won the prize with the first
part of a tetralogy or group of four plays at a
dramatic festival: he was born about 447 B.C., and
studied rhetoric under Gorgias and Prodicus.
Phaedrus, who makes the first speech at the party,
c),
was a disciple of Hippias (Protag. 315 and
a
Plato, who gave his name
of
friend to
the other
dialogue (the Phaedrus) which especially deals with
the subject love. Pausanias, the next speaker,
of
disciple Prodicus (Protag. 315

of
D)
was and
a
a
passionate admirer Agathon; his speech
of of
is
typical exhibition the plausible, ornamental a
the literary sophists. Eryximachus, son

of
rhetoric
the physician Acumenus, followed his father's
of
profession and belonged the great medical guild

to
the Asclepiadae. He has the unbending gravity

of
and cold, dogmatic utterance

of
the student and

upholder Aristophanes, the great comic
of
science.
poet and close contemporary Agathon, had seized
of
on
the originality which distinguished Socrates from

78
on
the
feel ordinary sophists, his scientific

and also
learning and argumentative subtlety,
to
make him
ice
the
Pe)
central figure
of
fun the Clouds (423 B.C.).
in
an: Here he makes the theme of love the occasion for
Im: satirical sketch, his own fantastic spirit and

in
a
physiological theories the day.
of
brilliant style,
of
in
the height
(c.
at
Alcibiades 450404 B.C.) shown is
|
he
his
popularity, year before sailed with the

of
a
|
*I * |
Expedition. tipsy immodesty
of
Sicilian The his
mood throws into noble relief the passionate warmth
*I his admiration for the character Socrates.
of
of
#
of
For fuller discussions the Symposium readers

*
G. to
are recommended consult Jowett's Introduction

Bury's useful edition (1909).
R.
(1892), and Dr.

|[.
|
79
|
* * - *
Q.
>TMTIOXION
* ,
AIIOAAOAOPOX ETAIPOX
St.III - w
p. 172 AII. Aok uot Trept div Tvv6dveaffe oijk dueMrntos
eis
eival. kal yp rvyxavov Tpgmy datv oikoffew
divudy da)\mp6ev Tv ov yvoopiuov Tis 6twoffey
Tij
Tppo6ev kAege, kal traigov dua
We
Kartw
KAjget, 'Q, QPa}\mpews, pm, oros 'AtoMAopos,
- cy
6s,
Tepplev's; kyd) twords Tepuuelva kal
o
*/
i
*
*/
w
/
AtroMAape, m, kai unv kai vayys
5
/
/
v
v
oe
tovy BovMuevos 8watv6offat thv 'Ay6aovos ovy -
Y.
A.
w
w
*A
/
ovoiav kal Xaokpdtous kai 'AAkuffudov

*
*
kai Ty
dAAov -Tv Tte - t)- ovv8eitvq Tapayevouvov,
v
/
Trept Tv potukw yov Tives joav. dAAos ydp
A6
to
Tis uot Bunyeito dronkodos (Doivukos p.Wittov,

5
dAAd yp o8v etxe Gabs

8
&bn kal Geelval.

*
el ?
Ayetv' obv plot 8vymoat. Bukattatos yp

on
Tolls to taipov Ayovs drayy\\eiv. Tpatepov

Tij
6s, eit,
o
atts tapeyvov
8
uov, ovvov
6'
oia TaTim o, kyd, eltov 6tt HavrTaqw

-
,
*/
v
}8& Bunyovuevos,
6
&otk oot ow8v 8wmyeloffat

8
-
8
oadbs
ca
w
jv
hy Thy ovvovoiav yeyovva. Tavrmy

et
vecoatt
Nothing
of
known this man.

is
*
80
THE SYMPOSIUM
)XION
his
Apollodorus tells
Companions hon,
he
): ETAIPOX about the Banquet heard
f
AP.
* >
ind'
"
()
believe
have got the story you
I
wflveafle ovk*
pretty well
I
be by inquire
1
of
#
npnyes % !chanced heart. The day
o'

A" :
before yesterday
to
|
: of up
p
# yopi" 07* going
to
TuS Ph town from my house
,
d
halerum, when
in
w T
one my
'
\ege, Kal Tailov 1.
of
* 5
sight me from behind, acquaintance caught
60000. some way off,
in
bantering tone
Hullo, Phalerianand called

w ovros
a
,
rTO.S Tepll!
0."
f Apollodorus, wait say,
I
|
heSo
a
s ge # moment. stopped
\kal
- wated. Then,
%
I
Apollodorus, and
said,
looking for you, do
know,
%al Tmy 'Ayfforos." have just been you
I
..."
all
\
as
''
/
TU
K0. hear about the banquet want

i
I
'AAkiffl000 that brought together
l
!...." Agathon and

eyou" Socrates and
'that party, and what Alcibiades and the rest
rives jou'." delivered upon were the speeches they
polyukos To" 00:
Mint'
relating
love. For somebody
to
me the account else was

yip
*n
(10) he had from

of
Philip, and Phoenix,"

he
"... mentioned that you

...
he
ya!
Strara" But knew
it
could not tell
all
at
"st
it
/
clearly;
/
so
give me you
V.
inayy' "per reporter theyour whole story, for you

are the most
of
irst
tell
dear friend's
me
this,
he
discourses. But
Party yourself, went on: were you
at
"| :
or
"You have had not ? To which my that

answer
"r anything but was
:
clear
a
informant, you suppose account from

if
*ing about the party you

to
|
have been such are

5f
this man.
recent
a
vol. affair
|
v.
G
r
81
PLATO
* * ey w o w * */ /
pots, diate kai u2 Tapayevoffat. "Eyaoye 8ff,
* * /
3/
&bm.
1
II d6ev,
56 jv 8
3
w
eyd, d5
T
ITAavkov;

ovk t
oio
5
rl to)}\w rv 'Ayd6aov v668e ok ttef

* *
> t > r 5 * w
S &yd Xokpatet
oil
punkev, dd, X. ovvvatpiffo kai
8
tueAs Tetoimual kdorms jupas elval
ti

-
w
Tpartm, o8tro Tpia rm- otiv;
v
Ayn "p
* ey
w
Teputpxov
6
173 Tob 6tm Txotul
- kai oiuevos
ti
-
r
Tolely d6XTepos rovov, ox #TTov
on
vvvi,
- - -
)
i
*
oluevos
ey
Beiv tvra
- uAAov Tpttetv buMooohey.
*/
Kai s, Mij orctt', pm, dAA eit uot trte y

w
w
/
*
*
veto ovvovoia
- airm.- kaya, eltov tv IIaiav
e
|
vrov judov - rt, re Tpairm Tpayq'6ig vikmaew
Ti
/
|
*
votepaig
r
'Ayd6aov, twikva 6vev airs
Ti
Xopevtai. IIdvv, pm, dpa tdAal,
dis
te
kal
oi
oukev. dAAd Tis oot Bunyetto; * airs Xo-
)
ey -
sparms; O ud Tv Aia,
w
5
35
2
5
*
*
/
o
*
&yd, AA 60 jv #v
QPoivuku. "A tus, Kva6
/
58
tep CDoivuku. Apwormuos Kvaffnvalevs,

B
oukps, dvvtntos dei Tapayeyvel
t
v
8'
ovvovaig, Xokptovs paori's div
v
- - tols uAuota
djs
w
off
Tv Tte, uol boket. uvrov dAAd kai
E.
ye
Xokptm vva jm divmpumv - keivov -icovoa,
|
m
-
/
scal uot diplomyet kafltep kelvos Bunyetro.
T
:
e
w
-
/
Bunyijoo uot; Tavros

8
o
ov, pm, 68s
#
#
w
f
els dotv tutmeia Topevouvous kai Ayev kal

dkovetv. ey
|
* $
p.
cy
w
w
5
6)
rows A
*
Ayovs Tepi airw

', & &*
Oro 8%
ivres
ty c/
dua
!.
5
totovue6a, diate, tep dpxuevos elarov, ok due

- -
C
Bet
ei 3.
Aerrs
- xo. * obv kal */ juiv Binyoaoffat,
-
w
w
Taira Xpi) Troteiv. kal yp yaoye kai dAAals,

pm add. Burnet.
*
-
of
Perhaps the father Charmides (Charm. 154).

*
%
#
82
|
'O SYMPOSIUM
.."'
": '
''*''.
"Eywys'
''
that
ayevoffat.
/ * *_l'
included. So did
*
so, Glaucon ? said fuppose,
I

You
he
& TAajkov;
TA 0% " l
"
mb, been
must know year that Agathon
h
it
y &668e ovk
:
::
ow8tatp:80." away from home country, and not three
:
kptet d
*C. r
f / years that Ocrates
hav

eival 0^|
een consorting
e
...' : ''
I
illep's
, ,
ms
gry; and making aily care
to
d
m
know wh
"
it
r)
:a:
tpia
|
what
or
olpe"; Says does.
ryout kai
"|
w
at inking did things,

w
yl), about
I
alive; just
a
wretch edest man yo are at
as
the
u
w
|
'.
/
"'
Tiprtely

present, thinkin philosophy
y
\\ your bus:
g
-
got
d)
.#
?...A
* i
tell
*
eit ness. of

t
U.
#
rt 11010.
that this
) ty' a'i party
dy, elito"
me
&lk'." place.
f
'When you were only children,
#
| a'
#vey
on the occasi Agathon's victory

|
on
y of
v, T
twikid.
S
tdal,"|
a
'
M
fir
first traged
gedy: the da after that the dedicat ory
of
#1,
:
-
#
pl
()
* GT0S feast which he and his players

myroi, held for
t
tion,
i
-
y, M Ah, qui

'l

OUl
*
s
my
5
-
1,
kvaffy" m
seem, the account
S
but who
#y
Tis,
himself P no !
s
I
Tapaye' pM" the person who hoenix
Y:
&y
eV
v
Tols
Aristodemus of man, who
"
ydathenaeum,

::
M
"
li
a
of
uvrol always arefoot. He was

*/
Went
the company
b
K000.
#
'.
,
of the chief am
''g
there,
Socrates'
&klyos OVers at believe. But the same,
9
I
,
ave since Socrates on so of
"
'.
Tvra's
e
w
:
the
k0ll MyW
Juvols
story had his friend, and he noW edged
I
th
be in
..]
to
rdance with his ac count.

Come
&
em
&
then.
let me have
&
Ayous repl. said,

6
ps
:
i
or telling and
%K
eitov,
g
: *

duevos

#y 3". go along.
kai So went, ioning
th

'. I' #
GM"
of
&yoye affair while this

}
began by have
it
as
I
pretty well friends oo must

|
the
had better tell it. For m
|-
ory,
y
154).
I
mides (Cha"
83
PLATO
ey d w f d w 5 *
6tav uv Tuvas Trept bu)\ooodbias Ayovs avrs

* w s/ 5 a w * */ 5
Trovouat i d'AAov drcovao, Xopis Tob oleo6at diffe

* e * e * e/ v >/ /
Aetoffat 5tepdbvs dis Xaipao. 6tav 8 d'AAovs Tuvs,
dAAaos Te kal Tovs juetpovs tos. Tv TAovolov
* A ' ' ' ". '
Kai Xpmuatuorukw,* airs Te - dyflouat -
jus Te
W
~
toys &Taipovs Ae, rl offeoffe Ti touety of 8v
* w f * * *
D Trotovres. Kai toos a jue's u jyetaffe kako
Baiuova elval, kai otoual jus dAn60 offeoffat'
w * as o 3/ 2 5 * s
eyd) uvrot jus our otouat dAA et ola. |
* - *||
del
ET,
Ael 5uotos 'AroMA68opeet, yp gav-

&
'
Te
Tv
*
kai Toys d'AAovs, kal Bok's
kakmyopets
*
a
plot dtexvs Tvras d6Xiovs jyeloffat TM#v Xa).

*
| |
*pdrovs, dr Gavrob doduevos. kai t6ev Tor
||
-
w
T
Tavrmy thv trovvuiav Aaes uavuks kaMet-
*
delW
2/
3
offat, ok ola yoye uv yp tols Ayots
v
#
Te
Gavr kai Tos d'AAous dypwaivets

et
Totoros
t #
A. Zaokpatovs.
a
X.
#
TAmy
ye
'Q
67
hi\tate, kal 60%v
|| 't * ||
AII. offro bia
8:
E
* * *
w
*,
voovuevos kal Tepi uavrob kai Trept judov uaivo"
*
plat kal Tapataiao; viv

ET.
Ok dtov Tept Towrov, 'AtroMAope,

't
ey
5
&piew: AM 5tep eue66 Gov, d'AAos Totions,

u
*
''
d
dAAd 8vymoat Tives joav A6

*
*
5
Ayot.
*
oi
:
AII. 'Hoav Toivvv ketvot Totote Tuvs uMoy

*
* * *
,
t
a.
/
dis
dpxs juv kai yd) tep

to
1748 kelvos Bunye

&#
gouai Bunyijaaoffat.
'.* :
His friend means: I expect you quite deserve your

||
1
crazy fanatic (for your general absorption

of
name
in
p
#
't
84
TO
: '
' :

air.
SYMPOSIUM
''
'' -
gobias Miyous # OWn part, indeed.
commonl
,
*
I
*
#y
"
*
th
w
aside
I#
Xopis ofeoffa
Tow
take an
,
l
in
...
gray Mous" philosophic iscourses, wheth

8:
di
whether
,
speak em myself
in th
a 1...
yself
or
I
povs tolls. T" hear them rom others
th case of other sorts of
f
whereas
-
:
e
''
*
*
**
w
r
of
r
r
that
re
is
dx}oga' *S.
's-
-
a
alin
w
*/
only
*"
ofeoff ut sorrv
# yse
T.
Tol"
f
ike you, -
'
u
Ju's - #&# you are
eal
3.

* you
M
at all. when
-
oleft
jus Anji point
of
a at
view,
,

I
hapless ature, and
itis#
seem
a
3AW effol?" think your ght
I
:' I,
true. however, do not think
w
del
"
you:
of
yp
for sure." know
it
ToMA680p
Y II:
kai
are the COMP. Ou

Y.
ro's dMovs, 30:6
as
same ever, Apollodorus
*\
always defami
w
*
efaming - your self and
-
ous
#yo" one else

}
Your ew
vi
-
it,
-
kal
!
6tley" able, save that all is
": e
fuevos. #ake are miser
and that your
e'.
w
ral
.
plight
the
Way"
...'"
is
WOrSt.

to
w8es may
- yo:
!
have
":
your
of
y. e
title
f
Myos"
uy yp Tols
do
!."
not know ough,
if of
*
I
yp"? course, you

5
like that in
:
Tois Mos
#
speech-raging gainst yourself

and
y
C
ty
or'
5)
P
in
ye

-
d
-
\w sir, obviously
it
Mia'
must
e b
crazy
*
kai Tp" juy

,5
::
!
opinion
of
myself and
of
all
A to
!
,
It
COMP.
is
waste of time.
#
rwy, "AnoM80% Apollod

,
about such In wrangle

&\\0s nof
ers now. Come,
more ado,
pi
0.01), comply with

request and relate
e
Went. speeches
AP. Well then, they
but stay, wer somewhat as follow
:
-must
j tr
:
y
I
and tell you all

fr
roler
t in
Om the

b
do
eginning, ust aS In friend O it.

y
it'ement
philosoph y), because
and
of
others suggests censure yourself

|
85
PLATO
"Effin yap oi Xokptn

vrvXeiv AeAovuvov
Te kal tas BAavras iroeeuvov, & kelvos dA
yakus toiet kal poffat airv rot to oira)
Ka}\s yeyevnuvos.
w w 3. e/ 5 w * 5 2 *
es
Kai
Tv eitely r 'Ett etnyov elsAyd0ovos.
w 5 w * * 5 A. w
6
X6s yp attv 8
8vbvyov tols tuukious, 8 6
bonfleis
o
eis
tv x\ov. djuoMymoa 6 Tijuepov tapoeoffat.
kaAAotto dumu, iva kaAds tap kaMw
)
Tara
*/ * e/ * 3/
o8
w
w
/
lo. ov, os, Taos exels Tpos to effeAew
#6
#A
#AAd
GaAa *)
div
ival dk}\ntos ti Betarvov;

B
Kdyd,
dy
eitov 6ta's
G
pm, r. Oira's
*
a
keRewins.
.
.
.
.
..
ey 3/ ey
w
riv Tapoulav 6ta
/
/
Etrov Toivvv, n, iva kal
8
dis
5
$6eipoplew we'rad AAovres, dpa kai Ayd6av
enri Batras taotv airwarov dyadoi.
*
"Oumpos
w
w
w
w
5
*
oil5
plv yp kivvvevel uvov 6taffeipal AA

8
6
dAA kal
w
eis
Tavrmy Thy Tapoulav. Tovio
as
iBoioav ydp
rd w
Tv 'Ayapuetwova 6.adhepvros dyadov dvpa
w
6w
&
w
*
5
ToMeukd, rv
s
MevAeov pua M6akw aixum

C
rv, 6voiav Totovuvov kai artvros rob Aya

puuvovos toimoev M6vta Tv MevAeov
drc}\mtov
enri Tjv 6oivny, Xeipo 6vta ti Tijv too dueivovos.
Tar dicovoas eitetv m "loos uvrot kivv
dis
vevoo kai yd oily Xo3rpates,

ot
Ayews,
&
* a
w
dAAd kaff "Oumpov haAos div mi Godoff dvps

'Ayd6av Lachmann: d'yav Mss.
*
The name Agathon resembles the Greek for good men's

*
the proverb, which seems

to
in
have been: avruaro. dyadol

5
A.;
dyabw ri airas tag. (Athen. Bacchyl. fr. 33). The

i.
8
corruption consists putting the dative 'Ay6v() for

in
dyabw; though perhaps the reference

to
of
another form
is
of
the proverb which had betAw (cravens') instead dyadw.

86
* SYMPOSIUM
TO
'urney Melovi
:d'.

7 Hon Aristodemus fell in with Socrates and came

k
*
8suvov, a the Banquet
or
"
"|
to
g_- ?:, aim
"
He
To
sai
he
airw said that met with Socrates fresh from the
in
Aft|
:
slippersquite
of
his
b
#: and wearing best pair
* |
he
:
rare events with himand asked him whither

es
"'
-
:'.
#|
such fine trim.
in
Was bound
*
To
I
Agathon's,
Tap
":".
he
at
dinner answered.
"
his
is
celebrations yesterday, fearing

:
kaMs evaded him and
wg
So
the
be
crowd; but present to-day:
|
agreed
to
"pls
to
:ye's
I
order
;
up
this handsome style
in
to
got myself
in
Oy;
I
tell me,
:: :
."
*...
for
"":
g
Ojra's match my handsome host. Now

be
5ta's
a
unaske
he,
for
"do you feel going
in
said the mood
(".
"'
:,
,
,
M.
"
?
Tiv Tapoula' dinner

to
that you
al
replied,
he
he
kal" 'Ay' For anything, said -
"
#on
may bid me do.
s
"Ou
Ol
Come along then, said; let
he
corrupt
us
M.
a
t #| "
the
proverb with new version

l/
:
pout they go accord,
of
What their own

if
our Goodman's' board?

fly dypd
The good men
to
-as y0.

"...Waky
&
'"
be
yros Homer may

Pl
y
to
Though indeed
to
said have not

?
#: debauched
"'
it
corrupted the adage, but
:
Ty Myl"
after setting forth Agamemnon,
as
or
Ty Thy ro5 dueiro"

;: good warfare, and Menelaus only as a
at
mi
|
19%
he
iritless,
# spearman makes the latter come
#
s
GT6
?
banquet the former, who was

of
Ayes.
to
unbidden
#
"
dy offering sacrifice and holding feast;

so
mi the worse
a
":
guest
of
better.

was the the
this my friend's answer, he told me, was:
|
iyadov Ms.
as
o
I am afraid mine, most likely,

that fits
t"
case
is
|
a
for
he
dolt

Greek not
your version, Socrates, but Homer'sa
'A'
Be
the banquet
of
c
:
to
oming unbidden scholar.

-
a
-
he
he dative pa)\6axs
Il.
xvii. 587 MevAaov brerpgas,

to
Y
*
trpos
|
8s
her
anoth'
Me".
form"
to

is
C
"X/Tris, and 408 airuaro,
ii.
othkoe Bohy dyados

5
87
PLATO
pa ov dyov ue
ri"
ivat 60ivny drc}\ntos. droMo
yjon,
dis
yd Wew oty duoMoygo drantos jkew,
5t God kek}\muvos.
D
dAA
B,
Te
Xviv &#m, pxopuvo 7p to
"
d
8ovXevo dueffa poijuev. GAAd iaopiev.
Tt

Towat drra abs. bn 8waMex0vtas ival.
Tv ov Xokptm avr Tros Tpooxovira Tv
vov kara Tiv 33dy Topeeoffat 5ToMetrpevo",
Tim eis
Kai Tepuvovros ke)eview "poival
r
Tpa
E6ev. of ti oikia 'Ay6a-
6
yevoffat
Ti
tev
|
vos, dvegyuvy karaXaudvew Tv 6-pav, kai
T.
&bn air6 uv yp eff's
of
yeMolov waffeiv.
datavrjoavra dyev
off
Tatd tuva voffew kat
d'AAou, kal kataAap Bvely jn uAAovtas
oi
kewto
Bettweiv. ev6's obv offs ieiv Tv 'Ayd6aova, 'Q,
6
eis
$val, 'Aptotmue, kaRv jicels tals ovy
eis
Bettvians: AAov ruvs veka #A6es, affs
6
el
dvaaMo,
oe
dis kal X6s &ntw iva kaAoatut

oix ols ieiv. Xokprn juiv Ts oft
T'
dAAd
dyes;
Kai yd, fin, ueTaotpehuevos ojapo do
Xokprm tuevow: etnov obv rt kal airs urd
XokpTovs jkout, k\ndels T' &ceivov Beijp ''
ti
8eltvov.
':' :
y,
*
Ka}\s pm, Trovov ov. dAAd To arty
oros;
,
-
kai
175 "Ottoffew uob dott eloniet dx}\d 6avudko

v
ars to ein.
O
kal
orclil, pm, Tat, hval Tv 'Aydflova,
''

Ti,
Spa Badham pa, pa

Tt
Ti
Mss.
*
.
.
.
:
.
.
88
|
WTO SYMPOSIUM
i"! "e, then,

5
pet' have your excuse quite ready
off
to
dyay 0..n, when
for

'
me; un
*
ji coming
to
oMoyjaw )70s b ring shall not own
I
on
*#ed, but only your invitation.
go
along together,
he
, / w e
remarked,
If
"po to two
*
f
0
:
6pxoplewo
in
there's one before another devising what
,
1
dM als".
are
off
say. Well, we go.
We
to
/ 46)),
8taleyffrds
he
m ! After some such conversation, told me, they
off.
mos "pog&o'/ Then Socrates, becoming absorbed
in
"
started
his
Tole"
by
/ e
own thoughts
the way, fell behind him
776/16W,
as
effeoffa w
they went; and when my

Ti"'.
friend began
to
ty poiqi & *
wait
for
he
go
# (l bade him
he
on
* / him
to
ahead. So
5
().
w
came
Th
olk
|
Agathon's house, and found the door open; where

:
in
he
foundhimself rather ridiculous position.

a
by
he
ty
'ya.
was met immediately
yPl
For
O
t
servant from
a
d'
w
jgavra within, who took him where the company was

::
*/
he
clining, and found them just about

A^
dyew jom
to
dine.
w
Ol
"
W
Agathon saw him" Ha,

*
5Ayfio", However,
as
as
soon
ey
he
g!'"
Aristodemus, cried, right welcome place
to

a
at
on
you came some other errand,
us
table with
If
"it
!
another time: only yesterday

off
to
went
I
invite you, but failed see you. But
it to
to
found
do
you not bring Socrates ?

forus
is
how he
Socrates, said, but
At
that turned back

o
I
sign him coming after me:

of
so
told them
I
myself had come along with Socrates, since

he
how
I
h:
to
asked me dine with them.

Very good
of
you come, he said, but

to
'''Where the man?

is
44
He
was coming just now behind me: am

in
"dering myself where

he
can be.
Ma
to
*
law" once, said Agathon the servant, and

to
at
.
9
#. !
'*
l
X.
% Cf.
It
60' pxogvo, kat

Te
'Ayfio", Tp rob vngev

w
Te
rr 224.5%
6
p
go
n, if two
T0
along together, there's one
to
t
CS
profit
Ms.
may be had.
PY
before another how

1
Tt,
"
.
.

*
89
PLATO
8',
5s,
elodge's Xokprm; on 'Aptornue,
#
8
Tap 'Epwiuaxov karakAvov.
#
iva
Kai uv' n droviev Tw Tata,
*.
8
scarakotro d'AAov Tuva Tw Traiov jicew dyy).
rl
Xakprms dvaxopigas
T
Aovra offros
# $. ||
&
of
Tv yestvov 7po6.jpg) &ornice kal kaAovros
ox 6Aet eiotval.
y, n, Ayes
'
"Arorw officovv kakets abrov
p'
s,#
joets;
did
Kai
Kal's #7 elze M78aus, dAA &re airff,
'
B
dy's
>
60s ydo rott &yet viore drigords not

T.
avrika,
d5s
rxn otnicev. #et 8
yd, olua.
p") offv kvette, dAA te.
: :
xpi
n
gol
AAA oro notew, Bokei,
s:
el
"
Tv 'Ayd6aova. dAA jus, Tates, Tovs dMovs

&
,
' '.
du
&orwre. Tavros Trapariffere ru Bowmade,
(5 6
retdv Tus juv 'i'

u
fleotikm yd) ov6ettore
5%

toinoa). vv obv, vout ovres kai u uy
'.
kek\jabai ni Bettvov kal Tovae rows dAMovs,

6epatevere, iva tuffs rawplev. "I'm
,
Merd raffra fin adis uv 8ettweiv, rv 8
#h
ok elovval. Tv ov 'Ayd0ova to) is
uratuhaaffat rv Xokprm,
*
'w
dis &
ow
'cety offy airw woWv Xpvov,

wra,
''
J.
dAAd uAdora adds uegotiv Were
oth Ayd6aova, Tvyxdvew ydp

'is'

evov advov, Aebp', #7 fidval,
y
#0
off
kgrkego, iva kal To ood
*
ti
:
woo, ool Toogeot

&v
Tols
Bast: u Mss.
|
PLATO
SYMPOSIUM
*if you can fetch You, Aristodemus,
in
'Apt' Socrates.
%
*
()'
o }
by
y
Eryximachus.
#
place
".
a
#
him and made him
So
the attendant washed
an.
".
#
for
im's dy.
*
reclining, when another
of
*: the servants
7
re 'mein with the news that our
re
riva ry Taiw good Socrates had
dyn/p'
he
feated into their neighbours' porch; there
"'
oros was
**nding, and
s
refused.
in,
he
to
The when bidden come
.#
"
*
go
strange Agathon, you must
*
How said
"
'
by
let
him go."
no
|
him, and means

wal No, said he,
"
lyes' oiko ...But this Aristodemus forbade:

him habit he has. Occasionally
'
is
it
th
a
alone
;
jr.
#"
M'
random, and there he

-I-'life r turns aside, anywhere
at
Midaus,

He
So
be
&re will here presently, expect.
.."
#ands.
I
0. him; let
not
him be.
.."
airla, disturb
#"
do
'
&
5
6,
well
then,' said Agathon, as you judge
w1
I:
" #,
he
();
boys, the servants,
to
called Come,
gol
## a5,
Bok "se:
#! serve the feast for the rest us. You are of
to
ffs, set
a ,
'',
have no
*!"Just whatever you please, now that you
#
80%
tried
s'
riffere
direct you
(a
(##'
method have never
to
:
#7
I
f
#7
efore).] To-day you are imagine that

to
and
I
#,"
all
the your
on
kai
company here have come invitation

"I"
orres
:
:
...'
us,
rols
'ok after and earn our compliments.

he said, they
all
began dinner, but

yuy.
did not arrive; and though Agathon ever
'
'
es
'''
fetch
Aftw'.
go
}|
Al
and
non gave orders that they should
a
and
off
he did
* :
it.
would not allow When

':: w:
t
for him, was no great delay,

no), \p"|as they
'
only about half-way through dinner.

dy
of
|*Then
#s
be
sitting alone
A
gathon, who happened

/
to
d'Aigra
#
0
*
th
in
flava, lowest place, said: Here, Socrates, come

#0.
by
) ". contact with you may have

#
so
Agip', me, that

Y
I
W,
"!"me benefit from that piece wisdom that occurred

S0
of
|
to
bo,
#" you there

ka
wa
the porch. Clearly you have made

y
in
!orm ere
i
7
-
his
l
an
probably aside" guests.

to
This clause
is
MSS-
91
!
PLATO
Tpo6%pots. 65% ov yp 6tt majoes avr kai xels.
o yp du Togatrorms.
Kal rv Xkptm kaffigeo6at kat eitely 6tt Ei
ein
v xot, hval, & 'Ayd6aov, el Tolobrov
i
Godbia, djor Tob TAmpeorpov eis rv kevaitepov
k
beiv judov, v dittpieda dAA#Adov, diotep
T
&
Tais kAugu jop
k
bud Tob ptov fiov Tils
T}\mpeorpas eis Tijv kevastpav. yp
el
ora's
Godia, ToMAob Tuua. Thu Tapd
kal go
xet kai
i
Ekatkatov otgal yap tap god ToMAjs
ue
raxis Godhias TAmpo6.jeodat. uv yp u,'
dubio Bntijouos, djatp
u
davan ris ein kai
'
on

Te
vap offoa, Aaputpd kai woMA)w togw
# a
i
ye
xovoa, Tapd oob vov vros oijra) obpa

kai kjavis yvero apmy uprvo's
he
gAap
v
Tv EAAjvov TAov Totapuvpious.
': '
Tpigris &m, pares,
et,
'Ayda.
6
d
kai Taffrauv kai dAyov joirepov 6talkaojuela
av
yd kal Tept Tijs Godias, Bukaoth Xpuevot

re
(O)
:
T Avovvop vov Tps Bettvov Tpta (ptrov.
To
6
176 Met& Taijra, pm, karakAuvvros Toij Xa).
' s
sprows kai Bettvijoavros kai Ty dAAaov, arov.
s
obs Toviodoffat kai Goavras Tv fledv Kal
re
ds {{#
T
TAAa wougueva Tpreoffat 7ps Tv Trow'.

Tv obv
sardoxe",
Havgaviav
Eiev,
dropes,
m Ayov Totovrov
Tiva pn" $g, J'

twds
r',

figora *peda; yd, Pew ow Mya juiv, 6tt

kal
1.
'',
yri Tvv XaXets xo 57 rob Y6s 7rov
8ouai dva livX's Twds, olual kal juy rot's
6
ToA\ows Tapiore yp X6s orcoteto.6e ov, tit '.'

Tpto
dis
fiota Tivoluev.
di
|
B
'Aptoroffdv, eitetv, Tobro

i.
Tv offy puvrot
&
'
'
92
2 SYMPOSIUM
ATO
it; for you
would not
of
f * discovery and got hold
kal
#
: ave
rt 75pes aird come away before."
would How fine
it
Then Socrates sat down, and"
is of
sort
said, if wisdom were
#15
kal
he
usa
{eoffat cit" Agathon,
b ".
of

who
Aft
of
{lov, could flow out the one
I'
contact
el
Tolobro"
that
Tv key: 9"
by
into him who emptier,
is
els
kgrpov iller through wool from

ov, T'
* # *:
o'
with each other, water will flow
as
If
such indee
is
a
fuller cup into the emptier.

the the
roff
pov, great value

#
''
varpay. 6,7" case with wisdom, with excellent
you: Ilook fil'd
be
sting next to
y'.
to
My own
TV
Tuual
s
of
in
wisdom drawn abundance out
5
dream; but
go"
Tapi ToMi disputable
a
s
:
but
e
tfyp
the other day
a
meagre, as
*
"
is
expansive,
yo'
*-
coffat.
as
bright and outh, strong
:''
yours
is
ujioffrio',
#2-'Antil shining forth from hirty thousand
V
kai
more than
h
#7
:
of
ToMW the eyes
t
y
in
splendid,
*|| }
2'
juros 6recks."
/
gov out"
said Agathon.
"
5
u"
*
rud mocker, Socrates'
You rude
/
this
*#
vero Tp()]"
go
"
to
-
$4
shall law
on
little later you and

I
/
tivplois.
wisdom, an Dionysus shall be our
A: matter
d
a# yo"
of
our
6
be
Xkpates:
judge. For the present, let the dinner
#grepoy
Staff
y:
%

tas, Buzag"l first concern. ha taken his
#8moy "p"
tp: After this, seems, when Socrates
rest, they made d
it
706 place and had dined with the forth,

W
Takuv"To: the god and so

libation and sang
to
#AAwy, chant drinking.

a
". *
to
kal Tw bids, till they betook them

after this
*
r)
* is
opene conversation
en
d
a
GoavTGS Pausanias drinking

|
of
what mode
manner: Well, gentlemen,
eGila aps
* wi' tell the truth, am

is o to
''
'l'
I
*
Ayov Tolovrov For my part,

us
will suit best bout,

?
result yesterday's
/
dyal, Ti"
|
as
very poor form with

/
a
n
relief;
i
so,
"...'
t 7.
-
6t
believe
it
AAyo #"
My
I
3.
little
claim
at esterday's party.
and
*
91))
a
I
|
y
!g
76700."
you, you
:
Suit us
of
most for were

drinking would
of
consider what method

best. that,
On this Aristophanes
observed: Now
93
PLATO
* * -
w a |
Ayews, & Tlavoravia,
e a. w
to *.Tavri Todtop Tapaokev - /
oaoffat 6aotvnv Tuva Tijs Trgeos. Kal yp airs
* w
eiut TvA. X6s 8effattuouvov. *

*
5A icovaavta obv arv n
5 3/ 2 / w -
Epv$iuaxov- Tw
* * 3/ .
T wtt
'Akovpuevo, *H ka}\s, bdival, Ayere. kai
* * *
>
vs* Bouat judov dicoboat, Ts ket Tps
eppooval Truvew *A
>.

6
Ayavaov.
'' *
6
* 3/
at3
58
v
Oapudos, bdval, ov6 38 Ts ppopau.
* *
>
" " ' #' \
3
ein juv,
/
v
"Epuatov 6s, cs oukev, uoi
6
C
kai 'Aptotojuq
>
(Dai)
w
*
Zo
Te
kal Catpop kai Tolobe,
el !
8%
*
!
*
-
vvattato. Tivetv vv dtelpijkate
"
.
|
.
oi
5uets :*::"...
#
* is
,
iuets uv yp del dvarov. Xokpatn
>
w
*
v
*
&alp
c
6
*',
/
5
*
Xyov incavs yp kai dubrepa, diot &#apkg

ar dttep teibi, ov uot 60ket
div
towdouev.
to w
a.
w
obels Tov tapvtov Tpo6.jptos xetv Tods
/
* bi-l.
A
'
*
&v
ToMv trivew oivov, toos * yd wept tob u6% silk

* * */
5
/
*
Ayov #ttov dyeinv
''
oiceo6ot olv ott td.An6%
*
* *
w
w
/
5
#
8
anons. euoi yap 8%
Touro ye oiual kataomaov
A
8
* on * *
5
Tijs latpukijs, 6t. XaAetv Tots dy-
k
yeyovval
D
' '':
6ptols u6m ori kal * oire3/ airs kw elva.
''
,
w 3/
/
5
d
Tppo
du
fleMjoatut twelv oire* dAAq) ovuov-

*
kal KpattaMvta rt **
Te
Xevoatul, dAAaos
&
|
Tijs
't
-
*
TpoTepalas.
* A-.
ry
'AAAd piv, &m $6val inoMavra Datopov S.M.

Mvppuvovorov,
3/
a.
*/
a
yaoy oot eiofla dMa's

6
#AA
* Teiffeoffat
*
#"
*
et *
8",

kai tt Tepi latpuki's Ayms

v
Te
vv
{{|
,
BovXevoviral, kal Aottoi. Tabra

of
kovoav.
in
tas ovyxopelv Tvtas 8wd u6ms tojoaotiat

'h
;
E
"
u
;
T
Tapvt. ovvovoiav, dAA oijro Tivovras

v
T#v
jovv. m
*:
Tps
94
ATO
Tavri tp79
rapa"
:
mak
#. :
Pausanias,

,
i

is
a
good
SYMPOSIUM
su
uggestion

of
uloS
:
yip
aff
got
" In
O
ngeois'
me
of
s
those who such
a
p(UV.
''
heard this;
-
hen
Epuki"
#7
::' :'''
son
:*
: said; and
W
You ere
th
,
1S
he
sirs,
'
Adva, Mire,
,
* " -:
yet one other Question which
hi request
quest your
|al,
of n
""
yet
I
w:
Ts
":
*
*
at SO

*
*
"
Opinion, as to
condition Agathon finds
rt
-
for drinking in
}rds ppallat.
no, said A. good
No,
in
am
gathon,
5,
not
#
6s
olke",
8'
for either it
*:on take it,
..
Tolok,
Kal
woul
us;
(Dalipo
for
I
#:
of
* piece luck a
l
rively viv the other On, is, for me, Aristodemus

that
5
#
Phaedrus, and our friends here, you who are
th
if
Sosprn
3
/ ...
:
apk& Stoutest drinkers are now feeling exhausted. We
l
5
d
5
#repa, aloT -
n
a
course, are
pot" the
off*
for it bedo
weaklings. Socrates
5
8%
#e3 not count
I
in
|
either way, and will

fit
cont
is
mp3s
e
#uos v" * with whicheve we make. Now as rS
' a
!
a
t
y nepi Toil"
"'
nobod
''
|v
that
!.
ere present eager,

dy
*
is
#!

Ayov firror draughts,
aps be the less irksome :1OUIS
will
it
karn" truly
"'
wh
of
speak and tell you

ye
oud
iS. if
3.
I
-
i
w
The
e/
medicine, find, has

of
#

Yaketo:
'' #
is I
?
to
#2. to
!!! clear harmful
:
-
*/
bjre airs k" drunkenness

:
neither could hel

I if
ov's
3f
and
myself agree,
I
5
offre d'M4
an
it.
'.
" excess
inking, nor would recomme
5
to to
3/
a
una)ra
r
:
another, when his head still eavy
is
e
from about day before.

Qal'
|
AaB'ra Here Myrrhinus interrupted him

of
-
*/
i 'm'
/
neieoffa' saying: you know always obe

in
Affa
*
I
!
8',
all
QP
-
#6 cal matters; and
"' p:'his,ir,
so
above now
e
"
Myms' aft&
2,
us, well Then

of
advised.
if
I.
'
a rest
v
dkot'0"
t
ley are
ack them, on'
h
toto
consented not
l'his miyo)": their but drink
(t)
might serve
as
just
it
95
Etel)
: Toivvv,
fidvat
Xaipeiv v, at Aooav avrii

w * 5/ f ea
www.afi Tats #8ov, muds 8: vd
w
Tv
w
PLATO
Epwiuayov,
Tooro uv Bokrat, Tivetv oov du kaoros Bow-
Amtat, 8 unbv elvau, T uerd Tobro
eiomyobudu Tu puev dipt eigeM6ooav avantpia
v wBowAntal
Ayov
5 *
tals
dAMAois
''
#
'.
"*
a
,
6t'
ovvetvai T Tijuepov kal otov Ayov,
'
el
Bov-
Aeoffe, 6Aao July elonyjaaaffat. '.
177 paval Tavras kal 6owAeoffat, kai kekewely
8
arv eiomyeloffat. eitetv ov Tw Epviuaxov
t}
&T.
H.
T.
uv got dox rob Ayov ori card
Eputtibov MeXavittny
ot,
yp uds u560s, dM
''.
:::'' i
d
aipov Tobe, uAAao Ayev. Dalpos yp
ue v
&kaotote Tps dyavaktv Ayet OB Belvw,

$noiv, Epviuaxe, d\\ows uv two. 6ew juvous

kai Tatwas eval it

Tw wountw Tetoumu-
"Epott, Tmakov to vt. Kai Togorg
6
vows, t)

6e), un va Ttote Togovtov yeyovrow town-
B
;
d
Tv Tetovnkval plmv ykpulov.
8
Boviet ei

,
a
atchagflat Tows Xpmoto's God words, Hpa
'' :
KAovs uv kai d'AAov taivovs kataMoynv ovy-
ypdhew, otep 8Attoros IIplkos' kal Tobro #
''
6
"
jn
kal
iv fittow, 6avuagtw, dAA &yoye Twl

v
vrvXov 3/ Buff}\iq9, &voav Aes 3/trauvov flav-

(5
* Hu.
',
A.
plaotov eXovtes Tpos didAetav, ical d'AAa totaffra

:
'en

'
|
':**
&v
ykekopuaquva. Totoft'
To
Couxv tools oby

uv Trpt to\\ivGTovv Trovo aoffat, "Epota

8:
eis
pmbva. To dv6ptov retoMumkva, Tavril"
" '.
UW
...
'o','AA' gui' urpos

t
'Eurip.
or
fr.
488 "g
...
not mine the tale; my mother taught me.

it
Th
The moralizing sophist, famous for his parable
of
*
96
'.
|TO
was
w booy
toy
'E' #
!
"': SYMPOSIUM
been resolved, then, said Eryxi

drink only
so
dy kaGTOs
we
as
much
to
that are
". each des
on
#y elva, to peri with no any, next
constraint
I
air" the flute-girl who came just now
if in
eigeMioow propose
. '. '.
herself or, she likes,
to be
dismis
5: 8: wri
*:
pipe
#
...8: dy
80%ral
to
her
the seek our enter
i
let
Myo M'. olk within, but
us
ay
tainment
Myo, d? am ready, you
if
conversation.
in
t
I
desire should
S0
suggest what sort
of
discussion
it
o
#aaaffat, be.
"
K&
'E'
kal
80%eoffat,
"'
oy
Ty
the
of
"'"
Erytimachus proposes
,
Theme Love

for
Miyov kari' said they did desire, and bade him
so
O'
5
Ap'uffs Eryximachus proceeded

So
proposal.
:
:
5
ya
:
':
"The words
b
Wyew, say
of
to
what the
in
have
is
tale '*
#"
Euriipides Melanippe, I
Of
for
not
0:
mine the
in that tell; comes from Phaedrus here.
to
6%) intend
I
it
uv tw.
is
ne" me and saying

is
constantly complaining
e
to
60y mountw -
thing, Eryximachus,
S
3/
that while
i
at
7000"
offrio 67
T'
k
hymns psalms their
in
dray have and indited
0nO' the poets, the god
y s
offroy yey"
:'
He $."
Love,
of of
so
ancient
3:
"d
no
great, has had song praise

so
:
-
composed
hi
for
all
by
single one the many poets that

of
a
ave been And again, pray consider our

Worth professors, and the eulogies they frame
y

Hercules and others prose,for example,
of
in
Prodicus. This indeed SO

is
t
by
but recollect coming across book
9
''
I
Somebo# superbly
y,
found Salt
in
which lauded
|
I
for
its
wn'
"E
usefulness, and many more such matters

I
To
all
Could you celebrated there.

5
of
think
is
/
this trifles, single man

ustle about such and not
a
-
till
"Wer essaying fitting hymn

s
ying this day

ii. to
make
ti
AM'".
|
a
*
Choi. 21), where the appeal

of
Heracles (Xen. Mem.,

1.
aught
of"
me.
-
alig
f
it
Virtue prevails over that of Vice.

of
his parable
or
97
W
OL.
V.
PH
PLATO
T}v jupav digios juvoa, dAA oijras juAntal . |

Togobros fles. Taira 8% uot Boket e5 Ayew
Qatpos. yd, obv tuffvu dua uv tourq 8.
&pavov elaeveyketvkal Xaptoaoffat, dua 8 ev T S.
Tapvti aprov got 8oket eival juiv Tots Tapobot sh
D koopmoat Tv 6ev. ei obv ovvoket kal juiv, *.

yvourv juv. v Ayots incavi) 8tarpuffff: 60ket #
yp uot Xprival kaotov judov Ayov eitetv talyov &
(5s
"Epotos ti kaAAwarov, dp-
v
Bev 8vvmtat
*:s: '. *
patpov Tptov, treli) kal Tptos kat

Xew
ketal kai otiv dua Tatip rob Ayov.
'Eovtuaxe, baval Tw Xokpt),
:
O8eis oot,
dj
du
evavria limbtetrat. oire yp Tov yd, dro-
#gaut,

T
6s
ow8v bnut d'AAo triaraoffat

E
i
poruk, oire Tov Aydflow kal IIavaavias, od
giv 'Aptoroflvns, Teph Advvoov kal Affpo '.
''.
&
8rnv Trga tatpuff, o8 d'AAos ojels Tovtovi

i
ji
'
"I
div
yd, Sp. toov yiyveral

&
Kairo offic
Tos jartots kataketuvous. dAA v of Tpoffey
ikavs kai kaAs eitalow, gapkget juiv. dM
#
So
Txm dyadi katapxro datpos kai ykoutagra)
Tv "Epota.
Taira Tavres dpa ovvhagy '$'.
',
kai
of
dMAoi
8
ui
tep Xokprms.
{{
Tvrov
Te
178 kai kAevov :

&
".
|
kaotos ettev, ore Tvv 'Apiarmu0s
'.'s
ov

.
yd Aeye Tavra
at
uuvnTo our &ceivos

&
v
og uot dtouvmuvevroy,
3
uAvota kai

Torov juv p kotov Tv Ayov.

IIptov uv yp, otep Aya, &hn (patpo"
3rt
6eds
puevov toffv Ayew, uyas
.
s
v6ve
S.
h
98
.
TO
a

'i'''"
dAA oita's
ju". to Love | SO
SYMPOSIUM
e god, and neglected
-
' "
so
We
- ? ).k.a.
".M'
with Now
/
!
ord think protest very proper one.
# to
I
','
am
a
: s
dua
#6 Accordingly obliging him
of
desirous
n
I
plagiai, "": also pronounce
as
but
the
be
I
ion
present for us here
to
Top"
a
jui" rols
"
elva,
#| *mbled
on
you your
cal
to
if
honour the
*\".,...."'her
oy avyok:

th
well enough
we
#| might pass
approve,
.
iravi 8tatpiff. discourses; form
the time
(' that we ought each
of in
opinion
...
y
* '' |"
Woy drew
is
".
right,
to
us
make turn, from left

y
to
in
y
as a
{\\
/
as
praising Love he can. Phaedrus
sa
tp"
shall open first;
kai
place
'#' at
e)
for
he
table, and besid: has the topmost
'
de
Toff Myov. ate.'.
:
our
X."
of
No
one, Eryximachus,
us, said Socrates, will vote
To"
yd ve,
bivat
do
"gainst you:
y) not see how could myself decline
:
0: : in
dy
y
I
700
I
When Set up understand nothing ove-matters;
ng but
to
" ;
ut
I
3
/
#Wo totao"
*/
l
could Agathon and either, nor yet
o:
IIavowing and Pausanias

w
wh
(Aristophanes,
&
*
divides his time between Dionysus
'id
o
y
''
Aphrodite.
A&voo'
of
nor could any other the persons
see
the
m
#Moso's before we
sit
:
be
sure,
I
at
yye": who
:]
!
::
do
not but the earlier

if
Iall"
"
bottom
2,
chance:
&
Gov
"p' peakers rise occasion, we shall be quite
&
of
dM

with our best wishes,
#
Content. So et
#y.
*
in
apkg
apse": make beginnin
a
:|
Kal
&
#pos one and all, bidding

ed
f
-
*
as
00
said. Now the entire speech

in
1...}
-
2.
,
beyond Aristodemus's recollection,

'.
each
dyrs dpa
..."'

too W. whole of
y

beyond
so
and told me
|
is
onhe
kpr's
#.
what
.
'Apor: mine: but ose parts which,

of
p
account also the

,
T" "
6
ye *Speakers, deemed most memorable, will tell you

"
feu
I
y
I
&etyos ccessivel they were delivered. / *

as
Sively
#(op'"
>
u0.
*
^n.
Ayo".
rst
said, he told me that the speech

then,
as
r,
uy"
I

of
P
haedrus began with points

of
0T
&yety, this sortthat
|
99
PLATO
e 5/
ein d "Epoos kal 6avuaords v dv6ptous Te kal

6eois, ToMAaxi Av kai dAA), ox jkuota 8
B kard Tijv yveow. T yp v tols Tpeoffwratov
elva. Tv 6ew Tiwov, 8 5s. Teku.jptov 8 tov- s
Tov yovs, yp "Eporos ojt eiolvoire Ayovrat .
#7 o'Bevs ore iwrov obre Town rob, dAA s
Holoos Tptov uv xos final yevoffat,
|
arp rretta
** * / * e/ w 5 /
Tat" evpwarepvos, Tvrov 60s do ba)s aiei,
'.
''
|
i8 "Epos.
Hotd39.84 kai Akovolaeos duo Moyet" final uerd '.
:
T xdos 8vo ToTo yevoffat, Tiju Te kal "Epota.
IIappevins B Thy Tveow Ayet
Tptvorov plew "Epota 6ev untiqaro Trvrov.
C Oro ToMaxev uoMoyetrat "Epos v Tols 'Mr
div
:
Tpeoffratos elva. Toeoftratos 8 ueyi ..."
orov dyaffw juv airis otiv.
oil
yap &yoy'
v&
xo elnew grw dyadov eiff's
weigw
T
5
vtt paori's Xpmots kai paotii Tatwka.

0
:
yp Xph v6ptols jyeloffat Tavrs Toff Biov Tols

uAAovot kaks 8.6Geoffat, toro offre ovyyved

oia utotetv oTo ka}\s offre Tual oire tob:
Te
: :''
oit pos. Ayo
8)
8&
Tos
D
AAo obv
t
Tobro;- Thy -mi puv Tots aloxpots aloxvyny,

*/ -
M.
3/
w
||
off>
||
"
ydp &arty dwev To"

8
tors kaAois baoTulav.

kald'
"We
Tov offre TAw ore ivrmy i.eyAa kai
pya epyoffat.
p, ataxpv
#mui Toivvy eyd, dwpa
Tolv kardn Mos yiywotto "'
Go'.
!'
T.
et
(post rvrov) huc transp. Schan ''

t
'Hotg buo)\oyet
".#
*
.
.
.
100
, |
WTO
rs
:"'
Love
SYMPOSIUM
god, among men and gods
a
*
t
y
dyffpnos T."
''
many ways, but
ey
in
R' this appeared
5
M,
t
oly
hi
in
#A) notably
birth. Of the most venerable are
*peo: /
'.#:
.
:
".
the honour
5' dp
this god, and the proof
":
of
of
this:
6'&
Tols
it
is
8 w
70.
parents there are
requiploy nor are any recorded
-
/
*/
M' either says that Chaos

in
offr eloly oir Or Verse.
came first into being eiod
ov
offre TOWIT00,

ding yevs". and thereafter rose
#ed
Broad Earth, sure seat all for aye,
of
arp t",
',
inia's
|roy $os doffa's" Acusi also agrees with Hesiod, saying that after

usilaus
born two, Earth and Love. Par
these
in
1-2

of
says Birth that she invented Love
#

|f
pooy" bef
(0S
p' all other gods.
Te
Tjy KGl
to
law,
by authorities allowed
is
various
'
standing; and
e
as
My!
most vener:
y
he
able,
y ution"
f
to all
highest
of
is
I
TyTV
cause our blessings...
e
I
form part say what greater blessing
in at
am - loss
y
-
ma
an
earliest youth than
#
can have honourable

n
For
:a.
0
honourable favourite,
an

lover than

all our
for
towe
: :
principle should choose

days, comely life, cannot
if
minded live
a
a.
as by
ui
e
kinship or
or
either office wealth

by
Or
Love. What shall
so
well call
this for shamefu I
iswe
ings The shame that feel

for what noble without
to ;
which 'it': ambition

for city person perform
or
S
any high noble deeds. Let me then say that

".
man in
e,
in
should he be detected some shameful

a
in
or
act
a
cowardly submission shameful treat

to
". ueydad -
r
ple:
l
psy"
y
Hesiod, Theog. 116 foll,

#600
"
f'
2
-
Toivvy yd) Argive
%
?" the first part

of
of
genealogies
-
*
in
h
fifth
the
oros Pa
"en...fr. Aristot. Met.
4,
b.
132 984
i.
S&
;
irray) huc tra" O1

1
PLATO
d e P 5 * * v > * 3/ 5
Taoxov vTo Tov 8

ot 8
avavoptav pum apuvvoplevos, ovt. e.
* < e a w o w e/ 5 *. 3/ e \
v 57 watps diffvra oijras dAyoat ore 576
e / 3/ e 2 x/ 5 w e e \ *
eraipov oite 57 da)\ov otevs dis 57 Tatwkw.
* * ef
6tt
E Tavrv 6 Tobro kai Tv puevov dpplev,
a
5
*
5
uadhepvros Tous paords aloxvveral, 6tav diffff
* *
ei 5
/
aloxp rivi div.
2
obv unXavi Tis yvotto

ev
A.
n
yevoffat otpatweov paotw
Te
diate 75Muv *(ii
*
's
-
*
*...
scal- Tatwkw, ok otiv tos
du
dueuvov oik
.
.
* *
al 5
Getav Tijv av Tw direxuevot tavrov Tv
179 axpv kal bu)\ottplow uevo 7ps dAA#Aovs. kal ua
a * *\
2
div
dy
plet
y
oi
Xuevo dAA#Acow rototirot vukev
*
6Aiyot &vres, djs tos eitelv, travtas dv6ptovs. 2
/
a * *
*
5,
3.
w
epv yp divijp it Tatwkw d6val
w
6
v
Autw
v
Tdtv 67%a droakw Trov 8%rov Batro
#
*
57 Tavrov Tv d'AAov, kal Tp Towrov reflv
#
ye
du
vat - To)\dkus Aotto: *kal unv ykataAutely

, *
a.
Q
a
A
v
td*
u) 6on60
3
kivvvevourt,
at
Tatwka obels
"Epos v6eov
du
oro kaks 6vruva ovic avrds

d
-
*
Toujoele Tps dpetv, diot duotov elva. T dpi
*
* a 3/
w
e/
5
&
*
a
atop fivoet. Kal drexvs, m "Oumpos, uvos

B
-
* e- a
/
5
*
dutyeboat vious Tv jocov Tv 6ew, Toffto

"
* *
-
5
3
"Epoos Tos pot Tapyet yuyvuevov trap

d
avrot.

-
ye
Kai repatoffvijokew
ju
uvo. 46\ovow
u
2-, a ey */

w
/
o5
w
5
"One
pvres,
d
,
,
dvpes,
ai of
:
pudvov
- 6tt dAAd kai
** *
a
HeXtov 6vydrp
8
yuvaikes.
Tovrov kal
w
"AAcmotts incavijv uapruplav tapveral 57p roe

* er
>
w
a
*
eis
Tob Adyov Tows "EAAquas, eX foraga uvn

* e- * *
5
5Tp rob airfis dvps droavelv, &vrov air

102
TO
f v 5 / * !
" | men
SYMPOSIUM
'.
0.
5
so
play un duvvolevos, ** would not feel half hands,
ty *
oire
5
it,

iros dAyiga anyone observing whether
:
world,
or
ind Ta.
comr
in
as
father the when
w
6s
e
anyone
or
#8ey's
}}
his
favourite selfsame way we see
* 1n
t
I
the
5
puevoy papa." and
his
how the belo
s'
especially ashamed before
d
|f|*
is
}
#
*
*
aloyiveral, Cray
to
lovers be about some shameful
observed
*
uyavi yor business.
at
T's
we could somewise contrive to
:
#y
if

' :
have city army composed
or
Tpatmeboy #pati.
of
a
lovers and their
"
of
could not better citizens
?
favourites." be
I
*/
ey *\
dy
duelvoy 0".

na's
""
* their coumir
all
refraining from
!
by
than thus y that
uevo nrov
in
base rivalry honour;

is
W
mutual for and such

a
by
7p), dAMovs
one might
Imen
fighting side,
a

when side

rotoirot wik'."
to
little band
of
ider able make even

y
a
*
t
5
in
ety, Tvtas diffpn'
Victorious all the world. For man love

all
*
the rest of the host
|
w
*
tky diffival
Mimi Would have
to

rather forsaking his statio
* avourite see him
/
1S
Troy #ar
"pd fiv
Binov flingin
he
ging away his arms; sooner than this,
Or
l
Torov
sal
Would

for
die
many deaths while,
as
to
or ;
:
uy ykaraM& succouring
" :# |
the lurch,
in
not
, !
im
that Love's
in
kuvveto", his
no
:
man craven
to is
such
a
,
OWn
airs "Ep" cannot inspire him with valour
a
the bravest born; and
6
that makes
.
jolov
#7 '0' ":
"
dia. Without fury inspired

what Homer calls
Y
a
on
god
4,
by
the effect produced

L in

certain heroes
is
a
by
/
16
Se", lovers
ove's peculiar power.
-
7| {{
love will
in
yyvgel" *** are

#
|y.
not merely men will by do

;
-
it,
but borne to
w
too. Sufficient
is
this
before the people
of
Greece
)
Alcestis Pelias, who alone was willing
of
ter
'
die
for
to
he
husband, though had both father

er
#
-ni':
-
-
V
-
wn'ich
*
Tapyra" There was at Thebes,

6'
*
/
sacred band
(:
5
(l
ffe) joaq
a
distinguished itself
at
-
f
0.S.,
*
|
Il.
(107.
Homer, 482, xv. 262.
x.
favety, 6'7" 103

|
PLATO
."
kai
C warps Te untps oils kelyn Togorov inep
s,
baig pora, ore drobeikai
''
Ti
e66Aero Bad Tv
airov's dAAotpious vras T) viet kai dvduatl
p-
puvoy Tpoojkovras' kal Tour pyagapuvn
to
'.' |
yov oijra, oev pydoao.6a
ow
kaAv uvov dy-
'i
6ptols
to
to
dAA kal 6eois, diore
in
MAw MAd kal
''
t
8%
scaRd pyaoap evow evapturo's twow 600ay

Tobro ypas 6eoi,
:
of "Atov dwelva. Taxw TV
T
livXiju, AAd Tiju keivns dveto dyao 66vres
av
''
pyq, oira, kal 6eol Tiv Tepi Tv pora atovffy
D
kal dpetiv uAuota Tuouv. 'Opha

"|
6
Te
Tw
Olypov dream drteubav "Atov, fidoua bet:
:

''
t
avres Tis yuvaiks jkev, arv jv
ow
.

vtes, rt ua M6aki'eoffat 86ket, dire dov kiflap-
Qs, kal toxuv veka Tob poros drofluff.
off
'"
'
orcew diotep "AAkmotus, dAAd 8taunxavoffat gy Hid
elovvaleis "Auov. Tolydorov Bud Tabra ikmy
ar t6eoav, kal toinoav Tv 6dvarov autob
5t yvyatkw yevoffat, ox otep AxtMAa Ty
E
vii.
eis
ths @rtosviv riumaav kai uakdpov

Govs drteu hav, tt Tervouvos Tapd Tijs um"
u)
dis
Tps dtoffavotto dTokteivas "Ekropa, dro- "le

a
'' .
B
scretvas Tobrov oika8 &A6d)v ympats reMevrfoot, Set

rAungev Aoffat Bom6oas T paori IIarp-
3.
Tuopio d\d
oil
uvov Stepato6avely
as
180 kq, kal

ld
:
S. |
8)
ical tatoflavety 5tep-

lim
Tere}\evrnktt. 66ev scal

ayaoffvres airw "Reh
of
6eol 8wadhepvros riumgay,

* *
%
rl Tov paotiv oito Tepi woMAo emotetro. Al-

'
"I'd
104.
| |
TO
a
mot
: SYMPOSIUM

in:
high did her love exalt her ove
and
/
*

kelyn Togovtov
:
s
in

3. a
o them
spora, wore invi
*/
that they were proved alien
'. ..
:
their son and relations; and when
'
d'"
kai
nominal
:
T viet achieved this
was judged
so
eed, noble
it
y
b
*
;
T:
r*
as
m
all
pyacqu" well although among
as
:
of
i.
doers they are few and soon

oil
yquotal uvoy
whom the
To"
to
have granted the privilege
of
are
noMr
#
&T having their ouls sent again from
up
*/
:' : :
s

admiration of her act

a 35
in
re
#ro's row they thus
.
18ov dyeival "d"" special honourt

5
{\
this manner
ven the gods give
8
() .
Zealand courage
%
5
of
yTe
But Or
in
*
concerns love.
*
#yeigay dyGO
5
of
Oea
they sent back with
Wi
$0n
...
roy
'
,
*
"
#
por.
ng
Hades,
him only
of
T. -:
wraith the
%\
a
'Opa
h he
for
|Cool!'. whom came; her real self they would
:'
#"
/
%.
A300, bestow, for

#
have gone upon
to
: accounted
#too
.
#*
jee, air" Coward's like the minstrel that he

''

,
hav:
:
y
the spirit
to
ed
and
as
die Alcestis to
'
#86-et, dr
of
".
for
the sake
he
:
ineff ove, when contrived the means
*/

ro5 poros entering Hade alive. Wherefore they laid upon

!

Baliyari"
#
him the O
he deserved, and caused
d
a
#
rol
hands of women: whe

8td
meet his de at

Tair" '-." the
Achilles they honoured and
ry
"
#.hi eth :
:
y
(livaro'. his place in

|
the Blest," because havin

of
Isles
#on 'AY!'"
els p
earnt from that he would die as

|
F'.
#
hardp"
#
he
kai slew ctor, but he slew him not,

as
if
Tapd ris
||
return home
an
end his days aged

':
vos
''
and rescue his lover
***'.
pi
bravely chose O

"Ektopd,
as
his
&Wenged him sought death not merely

%
in
in
behalf but
be
joined with:
paari'
to
aste
#
death had ta ods SO hi hly

}}|
ad
epanofla" mired him th gave him distinguished
',
kal" "hour, since he great value on his lover.

so
set
...
ra's airw rium" Pindar Ol. foll. (Homer, Od.

xi.
467 foll: places

78
ii.ii
*

him
r!
Homer,
Il.
&role" Hades). xviii. #6.

in
oMo
*
5
105
A-,
|
PLATO
b)\vapet |!
oxvAos 6 bokov 'AXu)Aa IIa.TpkAov
*
5 ev *
/ A. * 5 w
fis.
6s jv ka:Wiaow uvov IIatpkAov dM
oil
pv,
W.
1.
Kai Tw ip6.av GTvrov, kal tu dyvetos, teita
ey cy *
tv- T-
To,
w
/
*
5
\
dis
\
vetepos
- finaw "Oumpos. dAAd yap
|
|
6vrt uAuota uv Tavrmy Tipu dperju
' '
of
6eo
B
* *
*
ua Tiju Tepi Tv pora, uAAov
*
".
uvrot 6avu-
*
s'
govou kal dyavtat kal
e5
Totobotv, 6tav p-

* "')
dyat,
tdy
*
puevos Tv paotiv Tav paat's
". s

*
[]
Tatlica. 6ettepovyap paori's Tatwkw veos
yp ort. Bud Tabta kal rv AXu)Aa Tijs AA- #
iotibo 6AAov riumaav, igovs
ei
plakopov
6
Knottoos Amoray, eus
u
#
7
drotu havtes. l'
|
#
eis? ape
&yoy $nue "Epora dev kal
8)
Oro d'
'.
'
'
*
h
w
w
/
/
/
of{vratov kai ruditatov kai kvpuditatov eival

* *
w
krijgiv
i
dperijs kai ejatuovias dv6ptous kai
ot kal TeMevrijaaouv.
*
"
a. 2. 'I''')
: :
(Pabpov uv Totobrv Tuva Ayov n eitely,
C
* *
v*
piet elva, divo
to
B
CDatpov dAMovs Tuvas
k
'm
'd
en
w
w
*
/
tapels
/
f
}
Tdvv 8weptumudwevey oi's Tw IIavaaviov
*
* *
||
~
O.
e
Ayov Bunyetro. eitely airw rl -

8
kaAs
* * *
't
* *
plot Boket, QPatpe, Tpoe 8Aoffat juv Ayos, h
d5
**
d
ep 3/
A oijraos TrapnyyA6at
/
o
e
o ei 3 Tv
ykoudgetv "Epota.
dit}\s
*
#A6
* 'it,
"E
#
w
6v
As
els
8
v
uv yap
ju
"Epoos, kaAs
&
etxe vv
d;
un
ydp &otiv els:

8
vs do6repv ott
* vros * * *
w
Tprepov Tpoppnvat dTotov Bet rawety. yd)

D
'lly
at
ov retpdoop Tobro tavop6%gao.6a, 706tov

*
"Epota
/
-*
*
v
dipdoat
le. n.
nevra t.
'
puv 6t trauvety,
* a
-
Othe
l,
f
\
auvoat dia's Tob 6eob. Tavres yop touev rt

'
offs

106
TO
Ila' And
''' SYMPOSIUM
he
talks says that
y Aya nonsense when
love with Patroclus; for he
it
in
;
who was

Iarpklov
in
urov excelled but assuredly
not Patroclus alone
kal

"
&n
dyelos,
all
the other eroes, being still beardless and, more
by
iM'"
OVer, much
th
Oppos. younger, Homer's account. For
in
he
by
floit truth there
valour more respected the
no
of
#i
of
Tiv dpet), sort
gods than
# they
*
love; yet are even
of
which comes
is
uMov urol more admi delighted
and and beneficent when
soloios, tw"
#
the the lov
his
#
of
lover than when
a of
he
avourite; since lover, filled
f:
fond
as
is is
6ray
#
a
5
with
: surpasses his favourite divinity.
in
'''
hor's tablk"a the abov
is"
This
5
is
#"Ay)\,
"
why they honoured Achilles
-
of
!." Alcestis, givi im his abode the Isles the Blest.
in
el,
So
he
pakpov my description
of
Lovethat
is
is
ve
the most
of
nerable and valuable the gods, and
? Kui w
he
s
all
that has sovereign power provide
to
virtue
"s ''
Epara 6469
and happi
ppiness for men whether living departed."
-
or
'''''
apraro"
&
:
diffptols
of
rijaty The Speech

"
Pausanias
Such
re
as
the main was Phaedrus' speech
to ini
3
*
M
by
port
(' " ".
#1
others,
ed
was followed several

It
Myoy me.
a
af
*...
which my friend could not recollect all clearly;
at
rivs evat,
he
related that of Pausanias,
S0
IIavGQ,"
over and
I
:
, T"
apels ollows: do not consider, Phaedrus,

-
ef
pl
0

OT Our
*
GVTOW good one, the rule simply

if
is
/
a
e
make eulogies
of
Love. Love were

If
o
only one, right;

he
but,
itit
be
would you see, not

is
and this being

hei
be
One,
the case, would more correct
|
it
and this
::a #
have
::

to to
previously announced what sort we ought

iti
rai -
this will endeavour to
:
defect
'll
will first decide on Love who deserves

a
#) prai -
*
terms worthy
Our
then will praise him
in
obligao'
#
0.
We are all aware that there

3/
t?
is
a no
...
170
rawW,
5
M.
0|| !
*
Aesch. 3/rm. fr. 135136. Homer, Il. xi. 786.

#r.
"y
*
2
*
0
res
yap 107
PLATO |
otiv dyev "Eporos 'Adipobirn. us uv offy

s
; 8%
8,
els
ojans "Epos tel
jv
du
8
8vo grw,
* -
'.:
6' 5,
3/ Q
s
kal "Epote elval. Ts
oi,
w
*
5
/
a
dvdykm 8vo T 6ed
y
uv tov Tpeoffvrpa kai dufftop Opavod
s
'.
Oi
jv
6vyrmp, kai paviav tovoudgouev.
6
8
*
"A" *
A.
ev
w
w
w
d
*
veotpa Aids kal Atvns,
fiv
IIdvnuov kaMoff
8
* 3/
w
kai "Epota Tv uv
t-
v
5
/
6)
Euev. dvaykalov rpg
'' ' '.

-
* *
be w
ovvepyv kaAetoffat,
IIdvmuov
do6s Tov
* * *
''
a.
Opvtov. trauvely uv ov Bet Tavras 6eows,
&
*/ * *
-
*
3
8o
Ot/l/ ekatepos etMnXe Telpateow
" " ''*''

L776 Ul/.
|
e
s
181 yap 7pus &yet air) &# &avrijs "patro *lms
:
* *
A.
3/ 3/ ev
=
e
*
an* our
2
*
:'
ran our ataxes, olor
40t
*/
Totojuev, tively
*
dew vaMyeaflat, ok ott
j
i
)
'''
A.
>
w
e
*
*
5
*
*
5
T
38e:
Todge,
ds
torov adr kaxov 8v, dAA
v
k
of
Tpax6, Totofirov dr8m kaAs uv yp (pat- 'hi

v
#.
A.
>
De8
*
5
*
*
yiyveral, 660660 Ad u
Tuevow kai opffa's kaAv ptis
w? ey * d.

A.
>/
-
"Eposov ts
3
o
e
6)
aloxpv. otito 8% kai

T
pv kal
d
0m
&
5
oti kaAds ov dtos ykoudgeoffat, dAA
d
*
'
raxs Tpotptrov pv.
'.
* WOl
t
uv offv ts IIavjuov 'Adipoirms

O
dy . dis
* ")
''
the
.
*
's#
dAn6s Tavmus ott kal gepyerat
tu
B
<- * * '"We
6v
Txm' kal offrs otiv haAot Tv dvptaly

''
of
pow. pgt rotofirot Tptov uv oily

oi
* * * ||
L.
-
v
*
#TTov yvyatkw traiov, Tevra kai pot 'Wel

dy't
'''
&
a * * *
dis
Tv Gaopidtow uAAov Tw thvXw, &nevra

0
"
!
*
'
dvomTotatov, Tps
T
vvavrat 8vampdgaoffat
(
*:
* * *
C
u.
*
6vov BAtoutes, dueAobvres

8
rob kaAs Car

-
108
10,
l
|
TO SYMPOSIUM |
*
".
/ * 1.
Aphrodite Love. True,
or
pobir). Love-passion without
|ls
if
'
'I:
a
3% that
be
goddess were one, then Love would
8:
8;
7% one
He
:
#
twobut
her,
of
8%
t Since there are two there must needs be
oil
Ts
3
dutop Up" Loves also. Does anyone doubt that she
is
kal all" ''
no
!
of
double? Surely there the elder,
:
mother
A
is
tav &novougous" born, but daughter Heaven, whence we name her
of
1.
IIlo
"
#venly;" while the younger was the child
#y
It of
3
we
#| 4's Dione, and her call Popular.
pit
toy
ora and
Ti
the two Loves also the one ought
of
t
A. follows then that

'sp
*l
w#
kaleiata,
*
be
called Popular,
of to
as
fellow-worker with the one
|
84
those goddesses, and the other Heavenly. All

5,
mirrus
be
praised: but none the
of
#.
course, ought
5
gods,
*
to
eitely,
f
repareov
try
of
of
to
must describe the faculties each

:
"par"
I
of
"#
avris For
"#
be
these two. every action may observed
: it
by
".
e *
that itself neither noble nor base.

as
Mp, acted is
it
olov
"
Ti"
"instance, this moment, whether
"
at
in
8a)yeoffat, our conduct

mi,"
or
i
it.'
drink these things
of
'' "
my sing converse, none

or
his 15
is& 2,
dM
"'. #
be such in
in
noble
h
is
yp
each only turns out
i
the
to
}-
kaMs doing may be. For

of
as
doing, the manner

the doing
noble and right, the thing
it
u
of
Op
is
it
yyveral,
s *.
noble; when wrong,

#y
|*
d'Ep"
kal
becomes base.
it
becomes
'lso with loving, and Love not every case
in
is
is
us or it
ykopuage"
-
{{egflat
he
worthy celebration, only
inof
noble but when

noble manner.
is the to
impels love
a
o, 'Aff,00" Love that belongs the Popular

to
Now
A
very truth popular and does his

in
phrodite
''
(;
6
* #"
epylera"
at
gepy Work haphazard: this the Love we see

in
the
is
*
"ner sort
*
men; who, place,

of
love"
in
$aol the first

".
iro,
6.
boys; secondly, where they love:

as
as
"pro" well
are
the body more than the soul; and

on
Kol
set
5,
er."
"dly, they choose the most witless people they
...
"find, since they look merely

|vy',
6"|
# the accomplish
to
'
be
or
"ent and care not the manner noble no.

if
to
As
3.
Kals Herod. 105, 131 Pausan. 22.

;
Pausan.
i.
146.
i.
*
i
i.
.
;
109
PLATO
66ev 8) ovuaivet avrots, Tyoot, toto 6 tu dv "

mprretv, duotos uv dyadw, duotos 8e Toivav- '
C Tov. ar yap kal dr Tijs deod wearpas Te "
oons to\) # Ts rpas, kal uerexotions & T ||
yevgetkal 6'eos kal dippevos. 6.8 rijs Qpa .
Tptov
ot;
vias uv pleTexovans 6:#Aeos dAA do-
s
pevos uvov [kal otiv obros Tv Taibov pos']"
i. St.* s
ti
8)
tevta Tpeoffvrpas, #8peos duoipov. 66ev
&nt
T Tptovta
k
toff &pgros
of
ppay Towrov
fivoet pposevatepov kal votiv uAAov xov
T
Twow,
dyatvres. airfi
du
yvoin kai
t
kai Tws
v
Tatepaotia Tows eiMukpws into Towrov too &po-
',
ydp &pot Taibov, dAA net-
',
|
off
Tos dippumuvows
D
B
v doxoviral votiv taxelv. Tobro TAnot
el
#6m
T@, yetetgret: Tapeakevaoliot yp, ol", .#

dpxuevot epv s Tv 8tov
oi
eiolv vvetiev
dTravra ovveguevo kai koty ovuioguevot,
dAA ok atratijaavtes, 's
'
dipoovvm AaBvres
v
*:::
n
djs vov, katayeMoavtes olxfoeoffat dAMov
dTotpxovtes. Xpv
6
kal vuov eival

ui
py
Taibov, iva eis dn Mov troMA) ontov) dv-
E
te-
|
#
to
yp Tv Taibov
T
of
m}\torce TAos dn Rov
Mevr kakias kal dpetijs livXi's Tpi kai g.
Te
uatos, uv ov dyaffol Tv
/ oi
* vuov Tobrov ailrol *

*
::
w
G
' !
8
attois kvres Tifleural, xpfiv kal Tourous *rows

5.
Tavjuovs paards Tpogavaykdgetv

T
Toloffroy,
''
/
182 diotep kai Tv Aev6pay yuvaukw Toogavayk

ui
ouev aurous kaff oov 8vvdueffa pv. offroi

yap elow 6vetos Tetovnicres, diore rivas
disT
kai
oi
"' 'pt
ToWuv Myv aloxpv Xapigeoffat paotais
:
eis
8
Ayovo. torous droffAnovres, dpvres

.
Kal pa's secl. Schtz.

*
.
.
.
110
'O
rt * / a

Hen
find themselves doing everything
SYMPOSIUM
at
o Tu QV Tvy001, Tov" .
its
good opposite, without distinction
or
%, duoia's 3: to.
L
the for
:
L.
this
ove proceeds from the goddess who
far
is
year#|s
Tis fleoff youn the two, and who her origin
of
in
#
al
#5
perego's

partakes other
of
But the
0:
both female and male.
Tis
#
evos. Love prings from the Heavenly goddess who

["
6
s
#W
firstl partakes not the female but only the
of
of
y,
#
offglis 6'60s
:
676, Ta'or'
male
ale; and secondly, the elder, untinged with
*
:et
:
is
is
#
W
ef
#o
Wan
those who are inspired by
5
*
f
duopov.
s
this
the male,
to
fondness for
in
%rov Toff poros them 3.
0
"

voivuMo'. What has the robuster nature and
kal
larger share
of
oy
i.
a
mind. Even the passion for boys you may note
sai
air." the
&
of
way are under the single incitement

this Love: begin
to of
ey
love boys only when they

associated with
so
acquire
onme
minda growth that

of
that down
their chins. For conceive
'f I
those who begin
this age are prepared at
b
love them
to
o
to

be with them and share all with them
3S
they will not take ad
shall last
'
:
y
oys green thoughtlessness to deceive

0.
0
of
ea :
y
w
0.
Wantage
O
0.
p
!)
p
a
d
straight
of im
and mak
by
running
of
him mock
anoth
to
Against this love

|
''
boys
of
uoy eval law
#
a
(!"
grow. should have enacted, prevent
to
5.:
ToM) een the sad waste
"'
attention for
of
an
object
so
a to
rAosdmoy uncertain :
who can
boy will end last, vicious
at
or
a
d""

re
Tp.
is
in
Toffroy
Virtuous soul? Good men, however,
and
To"
vuoy Voluntaril
y
themselves, and
*
|
this law for

it
we beis
...a
8:
rotto" #)
"
rule
lovers ought
as to
a
popular
w
Tolo" lose
T0
{{ely
yg' obe
to
K
we
0.
orced
just force them,
y,
as
so
a
'an,
far
refr
to
Val K(0)/
!
from loving our freeborn women;

#in
*:
p." are
ui
".
effa Se
persons responsible for the scandal
he
ownedres, which prom pts some say gratify

to
to
shame
it
is
5
agrus
view,
lo
One's Ver:
/
such are the cases they have

4.
in
ap#eoffat yf:
pr"
#Mmoires,
Schtz, 111
PLATO
2 * w 5 * w 5 / 5 w 5 /
oil
arv Tiju dicatpiav kal dukiav, tel ftov
6
*
b/
e
ye
koaplios kal wouiuos riotiv Tpatrplevov
du
yov 8wkaia's bpot. -
*/ a
w
w
nw
.
Tepi Tv pora vuos
o
*
Kai kal tals
v
uv
d
3/ * * ey
w
e
e
s
dvos dit}\s yp diptotal.
at
dAAals tMeow voo
o
ev668e [kal Aakeaiuovu]"
6
v
Touki Aos.
v
d
* *
3
v
||
|}
v
"HA-6 puv *yp kai Boucotols, kal
off
ui
v
B
oodhol <!
#
*
T
Ayetv, dTMs vevouoffrntal kaRv Xapieoffat
*
vp
w
ojre ta-
/
paotais, kal offic Tus eitrov oire vos
*
(#
:
ey
2
d
dis
aloxpw, iva, oiuat, tpdyuat' xoot
ui
'.& *
Xavs
Ayo tepduevo Teiffew rows vows, re dvarot *
* *
w
6w
5
al-5
*
Ayetv Tijs 'Iovias kai d'AAo6. ToMAaxoi
oxpw vevutoTau, oot 8apdpots oikobov. Tos it
*
w
/
yp Bap8pots 6td ts rvpavvias aloxpw toffr
C
ey
A.
ye
w
w
oil5
e
*
Te
kai buMooodbia kai bukoyvuvaatia j

:
'ydp, oiuat, ovuffpet Tos doxovot dipovijuara

'm
*:
Ma
pleyd yyiyveoffat Tv doxople'vov, o8 bu)\ias

*
's
w
'.
8)
td
ioxvpds kai kouvovias, uAuota ht)\et
Te
6
* *
"
-
w
J.
-
pos utotetv. pyo
8&
d'AAa Travra kal Tobro
6
*
oi.
6
yap Apato.
*
*
uaflov kal ve Tpavvow:

'i'
*/
w
-
yetrovos pos Applotov kai
bu}\ia B8av0s
j
*
1
ow *
-
| |
yevoluvn katAvoeu avrv Tijv dpxiv. ora's
* *
A.
*
uv aloxpw *r0m *xapiegflat paaras, kakig Tw
f
*
6euvov ketrat, Tv Plv dpxvtov TAeove##, Ol
D
''
't
w
8w
',
<s
5
A
*
Tv doxopuvov dvavpig
8
of
8
* kaRv diTMs
* *
',
3.
w
voutgn, 3rd Thy Tv depivoy ris huxis dpyla',

6
/
t,
#v66e 8 A.) {AA 6

vevouotermtat,
o
evdoe Toav Tourov kaAAtov

ical tep eitrov,
o
648tov katavonoav.
m
0
w
:.
ka
yap 6tt Ayeral

To
'Evvum6vrt MAtov
#|
|
-
'0Es
'tasi
secl. Winckelmann.
''d
v
kal Aakeatuovu
*
12
I
W.
)
V
A.
TO
'

for
''.: : SYMPOSIUM
all
: ''
#8way, and their reckless and wrongful
"
t
1
an
* orderly
#| :
in
whatsoever done
is
drody partlia"
*'"
lawful can never justly bring
and
"Further note the rule with regard
to
to
easy
is
pora vigos & u r
in
simple
''
love other cities: there laid down
in
yip
:
it
is

is ms terms, whil complicated. For Elis
in
here
Bo::
is
no
and speech
t*
skill
is in
kaiuovu."
is
''
where there
kal
arols,
p:
seemly
of
they have ordinance that

C.
it
ply
": 'ul, an
kay Yep!" gratify old.
to
lo
:
to
inno
one whether young
or
not
call
it
on:" will order, suppose,
to
o're vos save
I
'
themselves trying what speech can
of
for do
to
"
ability
for
no
they have
:
d6%" youths;
e
is
vovs, dr
ute
speakin Ionia and many other regions
*
in
|
ToMayo'
#
#Woff.
where the counted
a
under foreign sway,
is
it
cloit all train
#
}apBpols disgrace.
hold this thing, and
a
a'as aloy'"

5
ing
philos
be
and sports, disgraceful
in
to
y
('
of:it of
eir
4Moyvilla" because despotic government;
i
since
#
$por:
"
presume, princes
*: of
to
dpyoval
i
the interest not

their
is
*:
have their subjects

or to
oe
youval", engendered in
of
communions; all
riendships and
any
uMota $04
at is g
which Love pre-eminently apt

to
It
create.
8&
is
Tolm
rotly. py9
''
th
lesson our despots learnt by, experience;
word yp 5Ap(070' //J.,. for Ari love and Harmodius's friendship

1
3
*
50%
108tov fa grew that wrecked their
it
SO
oiral;
/
to
POWer. Thus where disgrace
"
was held
it
*.
a
f
*
a.
paotais, wak' gratify one's over, the tradition

to
due the 'evil

is
1
":
is,
of
&
meo Ways thos who made such

to
pyvray lawthat
e
\'.
t
the cowardice
of
:*
## the rulers and

to
the encroach
2."
of
the ruled accepted

~
honour
as
ris
Wis
it
was
y
an
able without sluggish

to
due
s'
a
Woy repouoff"
In our city
'
of
mind
W
ness
'.
avoidal. aWe far better

regulations, which,
|
as
kMo'",
I
#yeral "So
{{ easily grasped.
Consi
sider, for instance, our sayi

*
*
ying that more

is
it
I
,
Winckelmann.
13
V.
WOL.
1
I
PLATO
paveps pv Tob Addog, kal ud Mota Tw yew-

A. v > * 5 *
l/OLLOTO.TOOl/ KOLL
dplotov, Kv aioxious dAAov g,
e *l * A.
scal tt at TapakAevous pvrt Tapa Tw

* ,
to ,
"
e/
E Tov/ eY
6avuaotiff. otix dis Tt aloxpv Totovtu, kai
* * w * f\ p 3 / .*
Ad 8
eAvti Te Kamov oke elva kai un Avt. alaxpw,
* * * 's
..
kai aps twepetv ev ovoiav vuos s.
* T 5 * * -
oke T) paoti) flavuagt pya pya'opv is
*
6
errauvetoffat, &
ea of
et A
Tis ToMuqn
/ *
Towev
dAA 6twov
** * > * no '"l
w a * -
..."
1838wkov kal BovXuevos 8wampdgaoffat TA}v Toro
*
A.
I- *\
Tw
>
5
uyvora kaptoft
*
1.
/
5
du
[dhu)\ooohias]," dvein
* el
*
'
Xpiuata 8ov\duevos /
*
%dp trapd Tov Aaeiv

*/ */ 5/ *
w
/
5
*
dpx.jv dp$at Tuv' dAAqv 8wauw 0\ot Tolely
#
>
old teppaotai Tps
td
Tatwka, ikereias
oi
Te
S.
*
w
a.
.
5
scal durioMjes Tas Beijoeot Totovuevoi, kal

v
Wii
a.
:'
5
:
;
pkovs duvvvres, kal Kotuoets tri 6%pals, kal
6\ovtes BovMeias BovXeview offas ow8 v 805Mos
*\
".
&v
wi
oBets, utootto Todt rew oro Thy

* * *
't
w
"W
T
Tpw kai biXov kal jar x6pv, Tv

B
uv
*
A.
w
>
*
*
2
kai dveAev6epias, Tw
'. : |:
dverbuvtov kokakeias
be
'''
vov6erovrov kal aloxvvouvov inp abrw T
awa * *
* #|
*
&pvrt Tvta TaTa Totovrt Xdpus reoru, kal

8otal #76 Tob vuov dyev dveiovs Tpattew, Sl

dis
Of
0
*',
Tpyua 6tatpatrouvov.
8
TykaMw
Tt
Bel-
't
a
6
}:
ey ef
ot e
to/Aoi,
*
A
*
votatov, cos ye Aeyovow

5
v
AA
Of
ott kai ouvvvt.

*
...
"SCIIC6
plovo ovyyvum Tapd 6ew kdvrt Tv pkov.
e/ 3/ *
w
e/
5.
"
w
/
dipoBiotov yp 6pkov haow elval oiro kai

off
#
ol
'.
6eot kal dv6potrot Toav #ovoiav Tetovkaat
oi
'
C
*:
-
pi
Aoaoqitas secl. Schleierm.

*
114
|TO kal
T0
' SYMPOSIUM
secret, especially
'
uAgra honoura openly than
in
"
*/
beauty
?
dw." when
as
so
excels not
in
much
/
dy*
*
aloylovs
* * nobility virtue; and again, what wonderful
f
in
pt
r
a
Tap'
"
we
s
encouragement all:
us
lover gets from
* |
have
'
algypy Toloir", unseemly,
isi.
thought
"
no
doing anything and
&t
l
kai
hi
counted honourable and
in
al.'"
is
Success
u
S
"...
:
*
failure disgr for
"
his
'a'
|Aety #ovolay
in
and how endeavours
"
SuCCeSS
free hand for performing
5
eaves him
*
hard #ya
a
{_*: such admirabl may win him praise; while
as
a
in
molely M.'" the same attempted for any other purpose

my
win
inclined,
l'
to
i.
or
effect would
in ich
Hmpaotia.
w
be
one might

' ''
*...
>
-
reproach.
?
bring one
%
kaptoir return but the sharpest

For

gaining money
of
suppose
at
/
Tapa Tov Ma& with the view

s
Om anothe influence,
some office, any sort
of
or
or
r,
8%auw 0.
70%
ma
as
to
should allow himself behave lovers

naturd, iserets" Common] -

favouritespressing their
their
':
Suit
Totovuevo, cations and entreaties, binding
" e
effoeot
themselves
on
#pals, vows, sleeping doorsteps, and
oin
#gets
submitting slave would ever
to

no
80% slavery
as
in
olas
,
of
:
endureboth friends and the enemies such
e
oirw
man would such fashion;
hi
mprtely
inder his behaving
" *
in
ia.
*
#7, #90,

for
r
while the
atter would reproach him with
"'
l
#pas, tion and ill-b the former would admonish

of his conduct. But
in
him and
f
a
voy Tip air"
of all
"
lover only win him favour by free

Xps et." grant
:
yr
our aW may behave thus without

he
aprt"
as
Reproach, most honourable end.

in a
dyeiovs

Strangest Of
he
the vulgar opinion has

8:
alone
#
Wrrouvov
d" forsakes the
ofhe
indulgence
kal
Moi, rom the gods when

Sr.

WOW he has for the vow love-passion
#,
they say, that both gods

So
h is
,"
vow. true
it
is
o
and men
ave given absolute licence the lover,
to
Wilk
Tetroll |
/
o **, the lecher's vows

"Cf. Soph ocles, fr. 694 Tppau vd.
in6
hleierm. 115
PLATO
y
p", wlos, $noiv
dis
T du 6
668e. Taffn
6
T@
*:
TaykaAov Tije
v
ov oinflein Tis woueoffat
'
Th
T
TAet kai pv kai biXovs yiyveoffat rols '?'
paotais. Tatayoyol's tuatifoav-
s:
6
tevv
u
tes Tatpes Tos pouvows
of at 8ta}\ye
offat To's pgotiats, kal T, Tatayoyo Tabra 7000-
'.i.
#,
Tetayuva kal taipot" dueto-
B
#Auktta.
giv, div 6pot Totovto yvywuevov, kal Tows
to
D
#
Of
dveovvas Tpeoff repov #
of
at
8taka Aool
u
dis
eis
plm Aotopow ok do6s Ayovras, Sili
8
8Ahas jyaat
Tis
: T du
Tard Taxw aoxtorov
|
8, oluai, 3'
T
totobrov. v6e wouiseoffat.

xel oily dt obv otiv, 6tep
ore kaAv elvat
doxis &Ayn,
air kaff air ore alaxpw,

'
kahas, uv Tpartuevov, kaAw, aloxps
Kal Kal6
dAAd
'' '
aloxpv. aloxps puv offv oti Tovmp
Te Te
Xpmot
Tovmps Xapigeoffat, kah's

kaAs. Tovmps &otiv kelvos paori's
#
3
I
Trvmuos, Tob adjuatos uAAov riis fivXijs
&
i
pv kai yap o8 Wvus otiv, dire
''
#
of
Who
woviuov
E
&pv Tpyuatos. dua yap T Tob aduatos
',
'
NO!
#.
.
v6et Aiyourt, offvp #pa, oixera, dmont
'h' ||
,
i
>
y
tooxge's
as
eVOS, ToAAoi's *Myovs kai kat-
*

a
w
'.
5
ns'
paat'
8
rob #6ows Xpmatod vros

&
Togo'
/
w
uovi" ov'Take's.
-
1848 Blow uvet, fire

a
kal
Boetat jurepos vuos agains flaga":

et
6
Toys
the
\,
ew, kal Tots uv Xaptoao'at, Staffeiffe".

8.6 rara owy Tos P" Sukey Tapogee'
| #
dietyev, dyavofferw Kal Bao'avigov Tor

83
rots
graspol Heindorf: repo Mss.
1
:
71} ht
dream which brou' dink:

e
'plyin
"
(Homer,
Il.
ii.
116
SYMPOSIUM
TO
law provides. Thus far, then, we
our Athenian
as
#6, "T":
gly
for
have ground supposing that here our city
in
5
yy' both loving some one and showing affection
to
VO {eoffat one's
y
#
A
O
|ll
in
"
70' lover are held highest honour. But happens
it
biMovs
6
put charge their boys when
in
of
t3ayoyous that fathers tutors
: are
o
beloved, prevent them from conversing
to
Aoi 30" they
With their lovers: the tutor has strict injunctions

" #
ataywy Taira
be
"the matter, and when they observe boy
to
sal taipol'
a
his
thing
of playmates and fellows
Kai
wuevoy, guilty such
a
'proach him, while his reproachers are not
in
their
'
Saxo'
by
or
withheld upbraided speaking
be as
turn their elders

*SS; and from this

$
60s Myovras; inferred

might rather
it
ol'
his
it,be
of to
held great disgrace
is
that behaviour
f
a
?
8,
6a.
To
Athens. Yet the truth think, this:
is
*
'
9
I
5
th
-
dpyis thing;
&
Tep
no
simple you remember we

\|
affair
byis

air oire ain' aid that

S
0'
itself was neither noble nor base:

#:
it
#
a
5
nobly conducted, and

/
voy KaMw,
'
that was noble

if
it
Byto in To
do
> Toymp@ 7:" basely. the thing basely
to
is
*if
y
Wicked man wicked manner: nobly

do a
*
in,
"ns
having with good man
a
a
"ble manner. wicked "we mean that popular

"ver, who craves the body soul
rather than the
is :
of he
love with what abides,
he
in
not himself
*
is
"t
As
the body
as
abiding. soon the bloom

he
off
he
loved begins
histo
flutters
so
fade and
is
all
#"ne," leaving speeches and promises dis

of
honoured: whereas the lover nature that is

a
Worthy abides throughout life, being fused into

as
one
with the abiding.

Now our law has sure and excellent test for
a
of
be
the trial these persons, showing which are

to
be
In
the one case,

to
favoured and which shunned.

encourages pursuit, but flight the
in
accordingly,
it
other, applying ordeals and tests case,

in
each
117
PLATO
'
*
*
5 ar -
pov Tot otiv 6 pv kai Trotpcov. 6 pauevos.
* * w
oiro 8: 5t Tavrms Tijs airias TpTov uv* to

" ...A.
W. w *
dAtakeoffat Taxi) aloxpw vevutorat, iva Xpvos 30
/ * w
A 8agaviev.* #
ev *
yyvnTat, 6s 8% 8 to AAd '
3/
&Tetta
t e
8 a
Borce?
T & * i*T Xpmud
T
a'
Tov
MAG
*
kaAs
e a *
kal 57 * TroAvruky ". *
:.
/ * / 5 #.
B 6vvdueov dAvat
TTn ical un
aloxpw,
captpham,
div Te calcs Toxov
du T evepyeroftwevos
't
eis Xpiuata i els uatpdgets to\vruks Aft) kata-
$povijan' ow8v yp Boke? Towrov offre B8atov .
's .
oire uvtuov evat, Xapis Tob un Tebvrval dn s
's
8%)
r
arw yevvadav ht)\lav wia Aeineral
illerpq vuq, dogs, uAAet* kaRs
el Yaptetoffat
'.
*
a.
si.
/
*
juiv vuos, 507ep
mi
paorff Tabuk * ort yp
* * *
a
|
Tols paotai's ovlevew 6\ovta jvruvotiv 8ov- #9.
fiv
p")
Aelav Tatwko's Kohaketav elva. un novel-

)
arov, ora kai d\m ula uvn BovMeta kootos

.
8
Aetrera ovk trovetovoros. airn otiv repl
riv doerff".
a
a.
Q
w
3/m.
juiv,
3
c
*
A
6)
\
Nevutoral yp div Tus 6An Tiv

6eparewew lyottlevos kelvoy duevov oeoffal 's'
&
''
kara gofitav Twd kard dAAo druobv apos
#
*
a
dpetiis, arm eMoovMeia ovk aloxpd elva.

i
*rat," {
6)
to
o83 coxakeia. Bet vuo Towra ovuaMety
*
ra,
,
a re.
Dels rarv, Tw Tepi

Te
Talbeggarta.
':
Tepl rhy dit}\ogo biav &\m. aper",7tal-
fe

To
ov'Bi yevotal
at
uAAet

A.
eis
8ted xaptgagda. aird,

raw, yap
To
3/
/
e
r
*
w
Tatwkd,
#y
/
vuov Xav kTepos,

re
>
ka!
"d
s'
* a
"
epaarn
'|
e
ev XG.ploapvols
Tatwko's 57mpetw
* * ditto" '"me.
V
5
"l
g
"perew,
ser
"
#,
notoir air"
| '
3
r
&
On
t|
118

TO SYMPOSIUM
p.'"
": -
we
lover and the beloved
to
# Torpov 5 Whereby are able
:
"
or
on that.
nd so for this rea
on
t this side
it
is
alrias "pror
"#
*
that regards quick
o
verdugra,
a
flag'
be
there ought, first,
S
to
a
or
certain
a
oM Kals interval the generally approved touchstone of
Tol"
& kal
ind
se
time; and,
"" disgraceful
rol the surrender
if
it
is
to
Te

Raks due public preferment,
is
or
:a.
mere
'y
is
a

elepyero'" rom the endurance of ill-treatment,
's #
cowering
7
Ph."
Or
shows
not properly contemptuous
of
Tourikis
Totoy offre R'
such benefits may receive pelf political
in
or
For in as
;
nothing
p
:
Success. stead
w
un: Tewk'" fast these there appears

ula of
or
abidi ng, impossibility
of
be
the
': it
Meiteral." unless
3
their prod ucing noble friendship. One way

Wei ka's yap: remains
a
our custom whereb favourite may
in
nS
i
a
#grip: rightl * *
july vigo, that, just

lover
*
as
our rule
itit
}:
#
:
is
:
#Moyra jurwo" lovers was counted no flattery
Pi'

#Toys' Scandal willingly and utterly
Or
i.
be
f
y
elva
to
them
to
enslaved favourites, left one sort

so
eir there
is
pn Boy'"
volunt
of
not scandalous;
7% -
f
ary thraldom which
I
is
gtty
b
airm In ean.
an, the cause of virtue.
in
;
de:
n- ~~ It freely
i
settled tradition that when man

""
dy Tis &#): belief that his a

*/
to
in in
* another the
P
:
friend will
point of wisdom
effoy duevo".
drow," ake him better
virtue.
be
may the other parts

of
any
of
e
#Wo
in
it
#
for
"'
v
'
5
this willin no sort of baseme:

&
U5
yp also
is
l/
Oll
0.
g
K
O.
compare the two rules one

al
Or
flatte
us
h
'#
rote

other
a
#
dealing
passion for boys, and the
w
"
madepaotia.
#' the love

b
With
virtuous ways:
all
of
:
#W wisdom and
7| this we shall see good
to
we are conclude
if
it
#
pati
a
fia
-
that
#!
his
should gratify lover. For when

ck
in by
air"
to
come together, each guided

his
oy
own being justified

ya!" the one side,
of
the favourite who has obliged

an
to
a'.
57mpet6V oing rvice
*|
gift
TototyT him, being justified
the other,
of
in
T
119
PLATO
oodbw Te kai dyadv Bukaios at 6twov v inovp

yv < tovpyetv 2, kai d uv 8vvuevos
eis
fipvil
E ow kai Tiv d'AAqv dpetiv ovuAAeoffat,
3
d
euevos eis Taevow kai Tijv d'AAqv Godhiav kr
83)
offat, rre Towrav ovvuvrov eis Tavrv Ty
to
vucov uovaxob vva6a ovutintet kaMv eval
Tatwk paori Yaptoao.6al, dAAo6.
8&
ow8au00.
ni
enri Towrq
kai atratnval ow8v alaxpv.
8
Tos d'AAous Tot kai atarouvo alaxivil

185 bpet kal u. yp T's paori
dis
TAovak) el
',| .
TAovrov veka Xaptoduevos atratn6ein kai
un
-" ABo Xpiuata, vahavvros Tob
trov aloxpv. oket yp
pao rob Tmros,
dy y
r
o8v rotofiros
',
airob* mbetkau,* tt * &veka Xpmudrov drov -
w
8w
w
oi5
e
/
f
drqpotiv 5tmpero, toto kaAv. kard tv *

*
|
w
w
dis
dyad) Xaptoduevos
e
5
6)*
et f
aTv Ayov kv Tis
''
* it
3.
w
/
o
scal atts cos dueivov ouevos bud riv buxiav toff

''
*
A.
5
*
3

pao rob gawatn6ein, dvadavvtos keivov kakoff
'.
B
''
-
oi 5.
/
*
scal kektnuvov dperffv, uos kaA)

* *
drrm fi'l
'i
A.
w
80ket yap kaff airv
-
r
y * at
kal offros Ben Mokval,

* *
{A- Ty
t/ *- &#
s
3rt dpets veka kal Tob BeWriov

*
yevoffat
*
w
6et 8
:)
*
.||M.
av
Tavt er"povvunvein, Tovro

av
or
* Tavrov kan W|
...
It
ye
'.
otito Tavros dperffs veka Xapt
:
Awarov. kaRv
'
{eaffat.
* * * 3/ %24-
w
5
e
/
*
5
Ors otiv * Tis owpavias 6eoff &pa's kal otpd

l'i
|

I'm',:
w
vios kai woMAob &#tos kal TAet kal ildrals,

to-
*
w
t
5
dvaykov movetoffat 7ps dper"

:
A#v tuAelav
* *
|
3
pvra arw airo5 kal Tv puevow'

Te
Tv
"
*:
*I6
&#
-
Wroup'yu (Wrovpyeiv> Baiter.
*
20
*'' :''
PLATO SYMPOSIUM
es him wise
the friend who makes
to
hi
attentions
#*!
Salas tw?"
#
a -

good; his plenty contributing
of
/-
to
n
-
d;
the elder
uy
#
vue's In
excellence, the younger
6
all
other
"w "
education and all learned
My go'.
Tip
kal
" onl the meeting
of
, arts en,
at
these two
" :
%
there,
** :''
7.
principles one place, only then and and

ti &
no
other can befall that favourite
it
in
nitra
a
&
may honour indulge his lover. To have such
''
any
of
disgrace; while those
hopes dec
no
beis
#val oil' Other sort disgraceful, whether deceived
or
ust
'anaray' not. For su
he
that youth had lover deemed
wealt''
"*
a
be
pati and, after obliging him for the sake

of to
&
Tis
*
p
his find himself deceived and no

'ao; #anar'. were to
,
'
pa" money
poo:
to

be
got since the lover proved
b
yp roi
to
#To
since the
- this would
'.
disgraceful all the same

a
M-4
br
;
Tom'

youth ma
to
said have revealed his character

5
and
anyone any service
do
ready
to
imself
for Pelf,
not honourable. By the same

|
and this
is
token
youth gratifies friend, supposing
him
a
to
be
man and expecting
to
made
better himse result of his lover's affection,
as
is a

friend proves
his
and the
|
deceived, since
be
virtue; even
is so
of
to
and destitute the

|
cepti -
honourable: For this youth also
'''
discovered his nature, by showing
ve
that
would make anyone the object
h
of
his utmost
e
ardour fo th sake of ViirtuOuS and
m::
mprovement
r
e
-
supremely honourable. Thus by
this
b
is
,
bestow this favour for the

all
right
to
is
of
sake
44
virtue
Thi Heavenly
-
Od: Love that belongs the

to
itself and precious both public

to
and private
e:
for this compels lover and beloved

to
alike r their own Virtue.

4.) Baiter. 121
PLATO
8 &repot Tavtes Tijs rpas, Tis Tavuov. Taff
dis
Toi Tapaxpilua,
ic
T Gol, pm, Daiope,

Tept "Epotos ovuAAouat.
IIavgavov Tavgadvov, 8.6&aicovot ydp
be
ue
'
Myv obrogi gobot, &#7 'Aptormuos
to
of
a
d
air riv
8
8ety uv 'Aptotodidvin Ayetv, Tvyetv
''".
5t *Amalovis #76 Tuvos d'AAov Awyya &time-
%)
#
Tokutav kal elva. Ayev, dAA elmety
Te
t owy otw
kara, yap autob Tv iaTodv 'Epwi-
at
Tw-v
D
.:
payov, karaketotal-'9 'Eoviuaxe, ikatos
et

Tanga' tle Tns Avyys Ay: #Tp uob, a's
im
'.
Toy Epv eitely
exo Tovooga',
KOLD
|
*
waxov
di'pg
|*
yap
&pg
AAA Tori" Taira, yd. p5
Tai',
||
73.7% "prog: 3'36,
'
eyd Ayo, y uv got bAn divebor
&
&v
*I'm
's
u,
xovrt ToMv Xpvov Tavegflat
84
Ay& "el
".
''':
'.
jatt dvako%xvAlagov. dpa Trvv toxip
8'
el
E
&rriv, dvdAady
',
Tt
Totodrov oko Kvoats Ty

adv
A kal
#ya, Trpe. sal Tobro Towjams drag 8ts,
Tvv toxvpd ott, Tavoetat. Ojk #
&v
ei
$6dvows
yov, fidvat Tv 'Aparod dum' eyd, Tadra Totijoo.
B
Eitely Tv "Epwiuaxov, Aoke? Toivvy plot
'
8)
dvaykatov elval, tet) [Iavaavias douffoas at

'lant
186 Tv Ayov KaMs ovy incavs datetAeae, 8-y
"
T
gu Tepofla rAos tiffeival

T
Ayg'.
yp 8witHov etvai Tv "Epota 60ket uot Kaad's
'.
$tAgat. &rt uvov otiv ti Tais /uxas
B
of

l]
kvoats Wyttenb.: Kivijoa's Mss.

#
:''
1
ing those sophists wh?

to
n
The punning assonance alludes
"
:
Heracleitus -an
1
my app
of
loped the etymological suggestions

seriollS
into mere sound-effects for prose. mo'
A
396.
.
philological development Cratylus,

in
discussed
is
122
TO
SYMPOSIUM
But
all
the other sort belong
of
the other
to
lovers
ris
s, Tavi".
"
Goddess, the Popular. Such, Phaedrus, the con
is
Qa'
}
apygia, of th
to
am able offer you,
on
tribution the spur
I
moment, towards the discussion of Love.
pause with this phrase
.
.
.
.
.
#
|
v,
318dakovot
Pausanias' praise made
'Apt'
a
#7
,
you see what jingles the schoolmen are teaching

&
7||
so
me!" The next speaker, Aristodemus told me,
l
have been Aristophanes:
or
but surfeit
to
Was
a
afflict him with
to
some other cause had chanced
hiccough, which prevented him from speaking; and
#
off Toy larger

a
E:#
just say
Eryximachus the doctor,
could only
to
he
vuaye, Bik"
I
:
Whose place was next below him,

fl. you
to
yety #p job."
!...a5
look
to
eit, Eryximachus, either stop my hiccough,
or
to
/
5
y
my stead until can stop it. Why,

#
speak
in
I
& ||*
I
a,
ya)
do
will both. replied Eryximachus for will take

"".
I
Taign,
for
.
y
2-let" 'our turn speaking, and when you have stopped

n
'h
:
got
4
you shall take mine. But during my speech,

it,
/...C. ||
Afty: l
e
your holding your breath good while the

on
#
*:
?
8 t
a
/
stop, well and good; otherwise,

to
dpa Ta" cCough chooses

You must gargle with some water. however,
If,
it
very stubborn one, take something that will
*
a
tickle your nostrils, and sneeze
or
do this once
:
be
twice, and though the stubbornest,

of
will
it
'op, Start away with your speech, said it

do
Aristophanes, and will you advise.

as
I
of
The Speech Eryximachus

Then Eryximachus spoke follows: Well then,
as
.
off
since Pausanias did not properly finish the speech

do
well, my best append

so
to
must
he
began
I
conclusion thereto. His division of Love into

*
so'
,
two sorts appears good one: but medicine,
to
me
*
a
.
.
to
ra kills' "ur great mystery, has taught me

those
to
observe that
not merely human souls towa ds
OnS
an
S!
impulse
0
ove
is
of
more
6.
396.
-
- 123
PLATO
Tps
rw duprov aps Tot's kaAoi's dAAd Kai
#XXa ToxA kai v Tos d'AAots, Tos Te odiuag
kal
Tv Tvrov (bow kai Tos v t y $voluvois
d's
gros eitetv tot Tots offat, kaffea pakval
v
Tiis latpuks, Tijs juerpas Txvms,
k
uo. Bok
#
uyas kal 6avuaords kai ti Tv
5s
6es Teive
B

ka! car dv6pTuva kai kata 6eta Tpdyuata.
:' ' .
poua. dt,Tis latpukijs Ayov, iva kal Tpe-
8
yp (bvious Tv ooptaly

offevoluev The txvnv.
3:00, "Ebora Toffroy &et.
To
yp bytes **
-
T
ro5 aduatos kai vogoby duoMoyovuvos repw
ott,
T
#
Te
kai
3
dvuotw dvuotov dvouolov
T
griffvuet kai p ti
#
AAos uv ov #yetv)

ti T@ vood,8ev.
':
ott ff, diotep
6
&pos, &AAos
6
ort IIavaavias &Aeye Tos uv dyado's kaAw

dv6patov, Tos
8
Tv dico)dato's
!
xapigeoffat
C
u,
'
abro's Tois odplaat Tots
v
Gloxpw, oro scal Mai

joyobots &cdotov too aduatos kal bytesvors caMd.
"
xapigeoffat ka: Bet, kal Tobr otiv
Te T
duoua
45
pikw, scal voodeow aloxpw

B
Tos kako's
Tis
Bet
kai dxaptate", uAAet Texvuks elwal.

v el
:
eiweiv, tiatium
th
s
ori yp latpuk, kehahak:

3.
&l
adjuatos potikw Tps TAmauovi"
k"
rw rob
&
0
8tayiyvokov touros. Tv
v
rvogw, kal
D

l'.
&
Kai
tarpikar,
6
aloxpv pora, obrs '97" '*)'s

Te

ros, kal dore duri rob r
tiera6Metv Tot",
* "|Mil,
6
'',
*/
..
v
w
ui
&repov kroffat, kal ots vear"

pov potos Tv a.
o
uto" oat
ld a.
&yyevoffat, &ntoruevos
'.
8
&pos, Bet * * */
*
w

du
dyaffs ein
|'

kal
""
&vvra e Mety,
n
*/
Ordplatl
5
6)
3r
0
v
&wra vra T
Set
3) *
-
&
T
A
*:
yap
.
as
124
#
#

)

SYMPOSIUM
"
*
"
alo's M
a
beautiful
?
Wols, rols re / |
a. a.
T."
offo, Kaffewpd"
!--- and aVe nt
~ * --!
T'
ris

the sway
:
#".
juerpas and universal
is
* wonderfu
f
"
of
may fled, this all affairs both human and divine."
6
*
ard fleia Tpi}"
/
Verence my profession prompts me begin
to
''
w
With the witn ess
of
medicine. This double Love
kai"
wa
Myov, '-."
* th nature of all bodies
to
belongs for between
e
t
:
#os 'ily health and sickness there
bodil
is an
A."
v.
admitted
is
#e. yip.' ren *
T
and what dissimilar

*
#|
:
dissimilarity,
l
the
pooyoup" CrVeS
dissimilar things. Hence
!."
desire
5
it."
'"
body quite other than that
of
dyuotoy is
a
a
off,
T a
f
agree with what Pausanias was

sickly one.
&mi
&
d
Just sayin right gratify good men

ff,
to
et. ott
at
is
it
to
base treating
"
f
y
dyaffo's
right and necessary gratify the
to
:
*
5
Mg"
d"
8e
**
rots good and and this what
is
|
-.'
a
of
elements each,

''
rots Gld" We term the disgrace

ysician's skill; but
is
it
a
#
skal yiewo's" disappoint the bad and sickly

do
aught
f s
#
to
but
a'
parts, one aims
if
an
being adept.
at
gtty For the art

6
6
be
of
medicine summarily know

as
ogeGW described a
6||
of
th
ledge
TuS rey's
f
*
and the master-physician
TGT'
;
he
who stinguish there between the nobler

is
%
and baser Lo
ves, and can effect such alteration
that
by
the
the other; and
#:"***
he
one pas replaced

a is
Will be good practitioner who expert

is

producing
L
in
ought
'#
ove where flourish but

it it
to
exists not removing

in
from where should

it

not
be. Indeed he must be able to make friends

i
.
This cosmi theory was mpedocles, wh

- -derived from
E.
*
-
of
spoke as th
125
PLATO
otw t Totely
kai pv GAA#Acov. art be
eiwat
x6tata r vavriditata, livXpv 6epu, Tukpw
y\vket, &mpv jyp, Tavra td totabra rowrots
E twornfleis pora utovjaat kal duvotav d jure
pos apyovos 'Ag:\mats, s %aoruv oe at non
Tai kai eyao Teuvo/wat, ovveatmore Tiju muerepay
i
bid
Txvnv. Te ov latpuk, otep Ayao, Toa
To6eob Tovtov kvepvtat, diagros
8e
kai youva-
".
187 oruki kal yeapyla uovo.uk)
8
kai Tavri kat-
#
T)
n
kal Gutkpw Tpoovouri Tv votiv
61
Mos
Kar Taird, xet Toitous, digtep igos kal Hp
r.
ye
'
ickettos Bowetat Ayetv, etel Tols
oil
fiftuaow
T
Ka}\s Ayet. yap final 8waffepuevov aird
' #:'
v
ar ovudhpeoffat, diotep douoviav Tov rekai

Apas. dAoyia douoviav didval
k
att ToMA
8vabpeoffat Stadiepopuvov ri elval. dM'

toos Te 8oMeTo Ayev, 6tt

k
8taffepouvay
',
Tprepov Tod dos kal Bapos, nevra joirepov
B
uoMoymotivtov yyovey 57 Tijs uovovici's Tvi's.

*
'.

ye
o
yp
k
ftov 8wadhepopuvov rob d'os *'d

6
e
ral Bapos puovia

du
ein. ydp douova ovu-
M
r

*
'l
e
diovia oti, Gvp"hovia

/
*
6*
Af
duo Moyla tus' duoMoyla"

.
#,
:
k
6tafepouvov, &os 8taffpovra, df

8
'...'
B
vatov elva. 8tahepuevov

at
ui
scal duoMoyety
}
kal

ye
', !
dvvarody (8vvarv2' doudaal, diazep
6
d
k
fivus Too Taxos kal 6paos 8wevnveyuval"

C
p'
TpTepov, duoMoynodyrov yyor',

3
iaTepov
6
T]v duoMoyiav Tot Towrots, diazep k!

kal ?
'
latpuk, vraa uovatki vriffnow, pora
6poNoyely dvvatoiv vyarv} Bury: uoAoyoffv d6% aro

I.
|
MSS.
#.
Of
()
126
.
)
'' and ha
'''' SYMPOSIUM
of
the keenest opponents
in
y dM'Aoy n |
the
* body.
w
most contrary qualities are most
vypov flepuff, "'"
T'
to
hostile hot, bitter and
:
othercold and
# Todira f /
of
Sweet, dry and moist, and the rest them.
It
wa
a #"
:
by
juvolay t knowing to foster love and unanimity
' #S
off
'
":
s jagu these that
two poets' here relate, and
"
I
ur
as
"
4.2-4
v
m
believe our forefather Asclepius com osed

*
7600
myself
|W
""
*
#OT)06
:
this science not merely
so
of
otep My, ours. And
f
w
throug th
it,
dicine governed,
\
gaito's Kai)" "dici

yu
propound
e
h
|
as

3:
5
I
"'||
-
influence but iikewise athletics and
kal
O
84
Tavri
sic also, plain any the least
of to
as
is
yoff
Tw
rgon
'"
Llan.
curious observer case: perhaps
t
the same sort

\

'"
rep lows
#": eracleitus inte
g
much by those
''
-
as
/
a
t
'':
ye
s
of
l
Words, The at variance with itself dra
is

K. aft
:'' ''
go
8taffsple" together, lik harmony lyre. Now
of
or
like bow
Te
y ,
f
perfectl
#
'"
speak harmony
To
of
Muoylay
at
to
absurd variance
!
a
f

Or as forme
he
still varying. Perhaps
*

el"
-
that from the grave and acute
&rt
voy meant,
* Bla'
.
which wer before, but which afterwards

&
by
Came to
40s, t" the harmony was
uo"'
music
f l
art created Or there can be
, is
surely
acute and while still at variance:

of
tl
"
ye
pp'
(''
1S
and consonance kind of

is
'a
e
w
1:a
a
e
a:
yap ment; and
''
things varying,
so
i
Woyla Ts 60%:
:
at
they are impossible. n the

!
#dffp"

is
disability
and,
of
when
...!
ing varies with no
0)%
|
v
4.

p")
:
@
"greement, th harmonized;
be
may
*

". *: *
pl'O
it
ye
'
it,
gtp rhythm ced fast and slow, in th

by
is
w'

q60s 8me.'" beginning Were variance but later came to agr ee.
#
all
oyody"
y In
these brought
the agreement
is
o's, 67% music like medicine

in
the
3.
,
-:
A
#por"
1
wriffnow, and Agathon.

2
The universe held

is
##"
of
b
strain posing forces, just W

$0.07" the
the right
as
y
ry
Or yre
on
d
opposite tension.
:
epends
127
PLATO
duvouav dAA#Acov utovaaga' 'cal otiv at plov

Tepi ,ppovian
otkj] sal Avtudy portray &m.
kg
ye
To
avorage apkorias
ev.
orman: Pet avan
Te
r
kai fiv6uob ow8v XaXetrv pauruk 8way:
djakeuv, o8 6ttMobs pos vrai,66 otiv" to
d
dAA tretv 8m Tps Toils dv6pzrows kataxpff
8)
kal dpuovig Totobvra,
te
D
offat fiv6u% ueMo
6
woulav kaRobotv, xpdiuevov do6s rols Tetoun
,
puvous uAeot kai uTpots, 68.) Taubeda kaijn,
Te
'.
vra6a, kal XaAerv kal dyadob 8mutovoyoi
6
r
8et. TAv yap frcet abrs. Ayos, rols uv
d
kogulo's Tw dvdprov, scal dis
#y
oourpol
's ',#. '.

yiyvouvro unita, vres, 6et Xapeoffat kal fiv-
oi
XTrew tow Towtov pcota, kal offrs orw kalds,
d
opvtos, ris Opavias uovans "Epos.
be
E
6
du d
d
IIoMuplvias Tvmuos, #.
v
Aaffotuevov apog
ei
Bei
ols
*
dpew Tpoo hon, 6ta's Tijv uv #ory
v
''
I'
6
airob Kaptaomtat, dkolaotav
u
unbeuiav
t
tovam, diotep juetpg Tyvn uya pyov

v
*
>
w
w
Tai's wept thu d'hotoukhy Tyvny tuffvuials kah's

Xpnoffat, digt divew vgov Tiju jov)w kaptajaa
n
offat. kal kai latpuki kal

v
uovouki
v
Tols
AAous Tqi kai Tois dvdpareious kai tols fleios,
Kaff 6oov Tapeikei,
188 "Epota: veotov yap.
divXaktov krepov Ty
-
'.
'"
Ettei kai tow dipw Toi evvavrob avoraqis
j
pear eart" dufforpov Totov, kai ready

viv
Tps dAAmAa to koopdov Txm poros

8"
''

t
y &Aeyov,
T
te
flepud kai huyp kal &mpd

.."
"
kai bypa, kal dpuoviav kal kpow A68m gfipo",

te
#ket ppovta evetmpiav kal bytetav dvpnos

|
Tr Badham: Ts Mss.
*
't
128
SYMPOSIUM
'
W
} } "duces mutual love and unanimity. Hence
a
be
"
to
found knowledge
the In of
turn music
is
67."
"
a
oft '"tters relating harmony and rhythm.
to
the
system
of
id:
actual harmony rhythm we can
or
-.,
distinguish these love-matters; yet
as
*
sqf)
"le
to
Love absent: but when we come the
is
W application
of
rhythm and harmony
to
id: social life,
"ther
we
construct what are called melodies

by
"Ol'
5
"render correctly, training,
as
what known
is
##
"nes and measures already constructed,
we
find
".
here certain difficulty require good crafts
a
and a
Round comes the same conclusion: well
"dered men, and the less regular only
so
in to
as
to
bring them better order, should

be
indulged
'Love, and this the sort
we
should preserve;
is
the
'is
noble, the Heavenly Love, sprung from

is
the
Heavenly Muse. But the Popular

Love comes
of
from the Queen various Song; applying him

in
no
all
"*"ust proceed with caution, that debauchery

implanted with the reaping
be
his pleasure, just

of
'',"
our
we
on
craft set high importance

a
of
right use the appetite for dainties the table,

of
that we
may cull the pleasure without disease.
"...in music and medicine and every other affair
or
be
on
Whether human divine, we must the watch

as
far Love; for both

as
may be for either sort

of
are there.
"Note how even the system
the yearly seasons
of
of
full these two forces how the qualities

#
'"tioned just now, heat and cold, drought and

by
"oisture, when brought
"d the orderly

together
harmony they
on
taking temperate
as
"gle, become bearers

a
of
ripe fertility and health
VOL.
V
129
R
PLATO
scal Tos 4%ous Te kal fivrols, scal ovv

d'AAous
iircmorev 6tav 8 d uet Tins 58peos "Epcos y
spato Tepos Tepi Ts Tob vvaviro5 clipas yevnTal,
B 8wad,0eipei Te ToMAd kai jiknoev. of Te ydo Aot
uoi buxobot yiyveoffat k Tv Totovrov kai d'AA'
dvuova to)'M wooijuata kal Tols 6mpious kal Tos
$vtots kal yp Txval kal XaAaat kal pvoiffa
&k TAeove#as kal dicoogias wept AAq}\a Tv Totov- .
div
Tov yiyveral pa Tukw, tat fun Tept dotpay
do
Te
hopds kai vvav-60, dipas Toowouta kaAetra'
.
&ru Toivvy kal 6voia Toal kai ois gavrukh
at
' .
ttoratel-Tabta Tept

Te
eotiv
3
Kal
C
6eov's
dv6pditovs Tods dAAAovs koivoviaow wept Mo
Tepi "Epotos fivhakiv
rt
Te
otiv kal iaow.
'."
u
Tys
Toa yap [in] doeSeva bullet yiyveoffat, v
T koopliq, "Epot. Xapintal un Tu #,
Te
atrw
scal Tpeoffewm Tavri pyap, dAAd [wept Tv re
v
"'.
|
pov, kal Tepi yovas kai Zvras kal Tetehevrnk
''.
'
Tpoorrakrat
6)
Tas kai Tepi 6eoffs. 75

wavriki
:''
&
etworkotetv Tolls "Epotas kal iaToeveuv, kal &arty

kai
ugwriki fillias Gew dvdpoinov &nuoup:

at
D
's
T
ys tiqtaadat
T
kata dv6odinovs portk,

ga Teive! Tps 6uw kai evo8etav.
Oro ToMA.ju kal ueyd'Anv, uAAov #
8
Tgay
8wauw xet ovXAffm uv was "Epos, l'o
3

Tept tdya66 uet God poowns kai lkatoovy's Sth
': #
dToteAouevos kal Tap juiv kal Tapd 6eois,
l'
* */ a a
w
e
w
*
*
oros thv pleytotyv 8vvapuv yet kal Toav jui"

|

kalW
We
||
/
/
5
r
5
{-
e8autovay* Tapaqkevget dAA'Aous

* Buvall ..", "It'8
vows duely kal biXovs eiwat kal rols kpeirToow

o" (Or
ps
hom, Stob.
tle
repl om. Stob.

1
eva8tav Stob. daegetav Mss.

*
130
|
:
SYMPOSIUM N
*
a okt to men and animals and plants, and are guilty of no

ki
p0s
But gains
#Ong. when the wanton-spirited Love
y". the year, great
of
in
ascendant the seasons

d
he
*truction and wrong does
at
wreak. For
Kal kal yip
these
ill }
|
and many
are wont arise pestilences
to
of
beasts and herbs:
in
er
"|
varieties disease
#
&
#. ewise hoar-frosts, hails, and mildews, which spring

:
byto in
"om mutual encroachments and disturbances
W.
"|
"ch love-connexions
in
as
are studied relation

the
the stars and the yearly seasons

of
motions
we
further,
all
So
aln what term astronomy. sacrifices

pa" controlled by divination, namely,
*nd ceremonies
communion between gods and men,
of
"
means
ill:
*
"e, only concerned with either the preservation,

p
##| "the cure Love. For impiety

of
usually
in
each
is
or the
lif 'se refusing gratify orderly

of
|
to
result the

"ye
all
honour and prefer him our affairs,

in
to
yieldi
dut
of
l'...} and yielding questions duty

of
to
in
the other
&
Ty
parents whether alive and
or
ev" one's dead,

l *towards the gods. To divination appointed the
is
:*k supervising and treating the health

of
of
thes
"*
w
"| 'oves; wherefore that art, knowing what human

as
"
seemliness and pious

a to
"ve-affairs will lead

w" observance, indeed purveyor friendship
is
of
"
* -..." betwixt
gods and men.
*
Thus Love, conceived single whole, exerts

as
a
strong, nay, short, complete power

#
in
a
,
o:
,
that which consummated for good purpose,

is
on a
#
emperately and justly, both here

allin
earth and
mightiest power
of
"Ven - above, wields the

#
y'
y
perfect bliss;
:
us
provides with that we

so
a
*able consort with another and have friend

to
rt." one
ship with the gods may well
It
who are above us.
131
PLATO
e - - 5. -
E judov 6eois. toos uv ov scal yd, rv "Epota
ov,
etalvv Tro))\d. Tapa Reito, uvrot excow ye.
tu
dAA
et
&#Avtov, pyov, Apuatdhaves,
d5
Gw
divatAmpoat ykal
v
v
et
Taos d'AAcos Xeus
-
/i
e
w
/
-
5
pudgetv Tv 6ev, ykopiae, erewo,
w

6
kal Tijs Avy
A
8%
ys ttavoat.
* -
/
189
/
Ek8eduevov ov n eitetv Tv 'Aptotodidvil
Kai tavo ato,
ye
o
uvrot Tpiv
t
5Tl. ud}\'
-
Ty
-
*
*-
-
Trapploy TpooeveX65ual atti), ore
A.
ue
-
flavudget"
T
kopatov
ei
Tob ocpiatos tuffvuet Totovtov

"hhov kai yapya?\toudov, olov kai trappuds art'
-
#
>
v
*
Tvv yp ev60s travaaro, Tet) avr Trap- Tv
''
'' * '' .
/
uv Tpooijveyka.
*
'' ."
{-
Kai
".
Epwuaxou, 'yad,* fidual, 'Apiard
Q
Tv *
Ti /
$aves, pa Tovets. yeAxotototets uAAov Ayen,

ue
kal Ayou dvaykes yiyveoffat

B
*-
fivXak Toh
*-
/
5
To oeavrot,
et 5
*
yeMotov Tys, v got
-
Tl
div
''.
&
-
j??!.
eipiivn Ayev.
w
atw
*A
K
a
/

Tv Aptotodbvn yeAdoavra eitely Eff
A
*
uoxe,
J/
5
#
*/
/
*
Ayes, Co
dep"
Po
sgro * "
u
ue
#Aatre,
5
o dis
e
eipmuva. dAAd
wept Tv* ueMvtov findgeoffat,
yd) floffoud"
'
Ti
a
yeMoin
''
eito, toto uv yap *
>
dy
kpos ein kal Tijs ju *

e
rpas uovans tuxptov, dAAd

u)
katayAaora.
/
BaAw ye, fidval, 'Aptotaves, oiet kfe"

&
*
p
5
w
*
e/
Ge. ds e
w
eoffat dAAd TpdoeXe Tv vov kal oijra, Ay

8%aov Myov toos uvrou,
v
C
86&n uou, diffoa,
l',"
Kai univ, 'Epw&iuaxe, eitely
y &
Tv Aptoro"
|
Ty
v6)
$vn,
m, ye Tm xo Aeyev,
ev
exa,
of
aaam
AAm vap Ayew,
T
m
)
132 '.
|
'
SYMPOSIUM
'0" bethat with the best will in the world I have

y
% omitted many points in the praise I owe to Love;
#
q/6 but any gaps which I
may have left it is your
* business, Aristophanes, to fill: or if you intend some
different manner of glorifying the god, let us hear
for
"| your eulogy, you have stoppedped your hiccough
y
y
eulogy
8.
noW.
up
#
Then, my friend related, Aristophanes took

as
the word and said: Yes,

t
has stopped, though

it
#
sneezing,
of
not until was treated with course
it
leaves me wondering that the orderly principle

as
such
:
the body should call for the noises and titillations

of
"I
sneezing; you see, stopped the very

in
involved
it
*| applied the sneeze it.

to
moment
I
"My good Aristophanes, replied Eryximachus,

"take heed what you are about. Here are you
buffooning before ever you begin, and compelling
your
on
the watch for the first absurdity

me
be
in
to
|.
speech, when you might deliver peace.

in
it
and-" Quite right,

At
this Aristophanes laughed,

'?
said; I
all
he
Eryximachus, unsay that have

I
me; for
on
said. Do not keep

as
all of to
watch what
#
is
a
said, my fear saying

be
so
going not much

to
is
to
something absurdsince that would be the

my Museas something
to
good and native

utterly ridiculous.
"You think you can just let fly, Aristophanes,
off
get good care

to
and unscathed Have

a
!
speak only what you can defend; though perhaps

I
off
pleased let you altogether.

be
to
may
of
The Speech Aristophanes

indeed my intention, Eryximachus, said
It
is
.
Aristophanes, to speak
in
somewhat different
133
PLATO
* d
scal IIavoravias eitrmy. -
uot ydp 8okoow ?ol
dv6potov travtdtag. Thu Toij poros. 8vvapuv ovk
* 3. *
no.6noffat, tel aloffavuevot ye uywot' du avrov
f *\
iep cataokev6oat kat Bouows, kal 6voias
* - dy
yi
e/ f
Totely ueyiotas, ox diotep vv Towtov ovv w
yveral Tept airw, 6ov Tavrov ud Avora yiyveoffat.

5. - *
D &art yp 6ew bu)\av6pottatos, tikovpds Te
dhy
* *
w
Tv dv6ptov kal iaTps- Tovtov, 6v iaffvrary
''
*/
3
/
peyiarm ejatuovia
- T dv6poteto yvet in.
du
|
*
&yd, ov Tetpdoouat juiv elony foao.6at Tiju
'. "* |
Biwa-
uv- autoff, juels

&geoffe.
* - Tw dAAcov
* 8v86okahol
w
Tpot' was dvdpo" % 'i
A.
e
w
8
/
Bet
agden Tp Up!
*''.
T
Kai traffiuara airfis. yp 7d\al jun

jv,
divots ox airm frep viv, dAA dAAoia. Tod-

-
a.
td
-
yp Tpia
jv
row uv
ey * 3/
yvn Tv dv6pto', r
5
v,
w
ovX cootep vily ovo, appew kai bijAv,
:
t
i-
E
6% #AAd
aaaa
To
kat
''
A
Wi
'i
Tpoojv
6v
'
dudotpaw Towrov,

o
Tov kolvv vin'
',

*/
/
w
>
3
/
8 8v
'i
Aottv, att /
/
voua j%dvtotal divpyvvov ydp

ca * */
w
'
/
ral
Will
5
5
*
r
av
je
|
Tte "ev eloos kal woua -
&
* Gafforpor*/
Te
-
koivv rob ppevos kal 6%gos, viv oux atty
8
3/

*/
\
\
5
/
*
e/
?
f
v
-
d'AA' veiet voua keiuevov. Aoy #7
i.!'
arevta
kgrov too div6ptov
T
elos atpoyyAov, vTo" * '. i.

*
w
1
*
scal TMevpds kk}\@ xov, Xeipas

B
- Trtapas ely,
/* *j. h
w
too
/
5
/
>
Ta
kai grAn
/3' 33:
- rais Xepot, kal mpgana

"
's
".
w
190 axvi -kvk}\otepet, uota Tavrm' refia).jw

6"
*- |M.
**
!
dubotpous Tos Tpood trous vavrious keptvois

-
'.
'i
?
ulav, kal 6ta Ttrapa, kal albota 8vo, kal TMa *\, 2n.
u
"
*/
w
/
a
5
/
/
5
7TOLVTO. CoS O.7TO TOvTCUly Oly TLS eUKGO'ley. etopeve To

II,
* !"
'...
#
8
kal dp6v diotep vv, drotpaloe Bovande"

-
rai
#
opp"
Xv puffaele
rte taxi) ootep
6eiv, diotep
oi
kvtot"
,
134
SYMPOSIUM
...t from you and Pausanias. For in my opinion

"... strain
humanity has entirely failed to perceive the power of
"".
it,
Love: if men did perceive they would have provided
"| him with splendid temples and altars, and would
&
lugins splendidly honour him with sacrifice; whereas we

see
these things done for him, though they

of
o:##| none
#|
all
gods most friendly
of
especially his due. He
*
is
,
men; he succours mankind and heals those ills
to
#|
r
(a
(f
be
the highest happiness
of
whose cure must the
"...] human race. Hence shall try and introduce you
#"
I
thehis
power, that you may transmit this teaching

to to
*
at
world large. You must begin your lesson

#
#
its
development. For
of
with the nature man and

!
by
our
#|
no
original nature was
as
means the same
my
it
#| the first place, there were three kind
In
now.
of is
an a an
"'. human beings, not merely the two sexes, male
')
1.
present: there was
*
at
as
(pn"f female, third kind

a
well, which had equal shares the other two,

of
whose though the thing itself has

name survives
"") vanished. For man-woman was then unity
""
a
no
less than name, composed

of
# both sexes
in
form
sharing equally
of bein
and male and female whereas

of ;
##| now merely reproach.

to
has come name

it
#|
all
Secondly, the form each person was round

#| over, with back and sides encompassing every
#
it
arms, legs
to
way; each had four and match these

1S
cylindrical neck.
#
on
and two faces perfectly alike

a
the two faces, which looked

to
There was one head

#
:|
opposite ways; there were four ears, two privy mem

#| bers, and the other parts, may
be
all
imagined,
as
in
#*
proportion. The creature walked upright now,

as
pleased
as
either direction and whenever

it it
it
in
running fast, went like our acrobats,

W#
started
10"| i.e. hermaphrodite; cf. Lucret. 837 foll.
v.
*
13.5
PLATO
eis
okAm Tepbepuevo kvt
T
res kai do6v
#
orat kkA@, dictd, Tte oov Tols uMeow dtepet
* *
8w
w
/
5
/
/
v
taxi kk\q).
#v
to
B 8uevot &bepov Bud Taira
Tpia
td
yvn kal Tovabra, tt uv dppev
8 r
jv
toff
jAtov Tiju dpxi), kyovov, 6Av rs ys,
to
du
uerkov Tijs GeMiivns, 6tt kal
botpov
8
i
GeMjun du botpov getxet' wept hepi
6
in
scal aird kal Topeia aTv Bud
T
Tols yovebow
uova eiwat. ju obv Tiju ioxiv Bewd kai Thy
T
fipovijuara ueyd
Aa
fiumv, kal etxov, texei
pnoav Ayet "Ounpos Tepi
8
Tos 6eois, kal
6
kal "QTov, Tepi keiva Ayeral, T
C
Te
'Ehud Atov
v
eis
dis
Tw otpavw dudflaguw envyetpetv Toweiv,
entiffngouvov tols 6eots.
O
oi
obv Zev's kal d'AAot 6eot 38ovXeviouro,

Xp)
rows Touffoal, kal Tpovv. offre yap
at
Tu

67os dTokreivalev eixov kal diotep rows yiyavtas

Tual
Tw T
repavvdgavtes yvos dhavioralev-ai yp

* *
w
e
v
Tapd Tv dv6ptov jbavigero

/
5
/
5
\
5
aTots kai isp

*
off
>
w
8)
tos ev doeAyaivetv. uyws Zeus

&
e/ *
a.
3/ 3/
/
r
/

Aok&ew unxavv,
as
evvoijo Ayet uou, &#m,

Te
div6ootou kal Travo awro Tijs dicola

v
djs elv
*
/
5
vv uv yap airovs,
orias do.6evo Tepot yevuevol.
D
* e/
et
*/
/
&hn, 8wateu 8t
w
5
a
6ixa kaotov, kal dua uv doffev

6
*
to w
w
Xpnouditepot juiv 6td

/
otepot oovtat, dua

*
w
w
5
TAetovs Tv doludy yeyovval kai Babwobvrat

* * */ * A
S
5
w
>
5
a
v
dpol ti 8volv oke Moiv. v &rt Sokow doe

8
/ 3
A
6
5/) *
at,
3/
w
w
/
*
yaivetv kal 66Aadow jovXiav dyev, TAv

ui
136
SYMPOSIUM
oft| Whirling over and over with legs stuck out straight;
only then they had eight limbs to support and speed
int':
* them swiftly round and round. The number and

...
these three sexes were owing

of
the
to
features
the
male was originally the offspring
of
*
fact that
# #
the
the earth; while that

of
sun, and the female
*
which partook the moon,

of
of
both sexes was born
the moon also partakes They were
of
for
both.
#|
""
#
y
their shape their progress, since they

in
as
globular
in
*
took after their parents. Now, they were surprising
of
lofty
so
strength and vigour, and their notions in

that they even conspired against the gods; and the
|* *
'tory
of
Homer relates of
as
told them
is
Ephialtes and Otus, that scheming

--
to
assault the
fight they essayed high
l,
mount heaven.
to
gods
in
:
"Thereat Zeus and the other gods debated what

|
|
they should do, and were perplexed: for they felt

they could not slay them like the Giants, whom
...
they had abolished root and branch with strokes

be
only abolishing the honours

**
thunderit would
of
and observances they had from men; nor yet could

they endure such sinful rioting. Then Zeus, putting
his
wits together, spake length and said:

at
all
*
Methinks can contrive that men, without

I
exist, shall give over their iniquity through

to
a
t
their strength. propose now ceasing-'.

of
to
lessening slice
}
*
two, making
so
of
that while
in
every one them

I
them weaker we shall find them more useful bys' Ty

,
their multiplication; and they shall walk".

of
reason
erect upon two legs. they continue turbulent
If
|
again,
in do
keep quiet,
do
to
not choose will

it
and
I
an Orphic
of
The double sex the moon mentioned

is
*
4); cf. Macrob. iii.

8.
hymn (ix.
Homer, Od. xi. 305 foll. Il. 385 foll.
v.
;
*
137
PLATO -
|
3/ - / e/ 5 * r> e \ / w
&bn, Teu 8tya, diot' t vs Topewoovrat ok
k
* /
Aovs doka)igovtes.
/ *
Tatra eitrov reuve rows div6p
/
|
e w
Tovs Bixa, diotep of T a ruvovires *kal uA
y
/ M /
rapixevelv, diotep oi r dh Tais 6piv.
k
Aovres
e/ \ * w > * * / / /
E vTuva B Tuot, AtAAo Tpo
Tv -
kAeve T Te
!
/
otov ueraotphew kai T Tob at Xvos jutov 4.
iya
Tps Thy Touffy, aTob
6-diaevos Ty Tuw
roopadrepos ein div6potos, kal tAAa ioffat
T 6
kal
Tpootov werorpede,

Te
&kAevev.
5
Bpua ti Tijv yaotpa
T
ovvAkov Tavtax6ev
vv kaRovuvny, diotep
td
ovataota BaAAdvtta,
|
orua totv dtet kata uonv riv yaorpa,
&v
8)
1916 tow dubakov kaRobot. kai ts uv dMas 4'

s']
T
fivras Ts to\Ads eMave kai or6m Buffp.
'I'
# |||#
4...,
||
6pov, xov Totovtov pyavov otov
of
okvrotuot
Tt
*- *
/
'
Tepi Tv kaAToba Aeaivovres 7ds rv akvrw
karAtte, tds wept air),
()
Till
fivras dAiyas
6'
yaotpa
- kal Tv duffaxw, uymuelov elva. Toff Ta'
l
Xavoi - Taffows. tretne/ obv fivots -8xa tun,
*
,
w
e/
rw
/
e
Toffov kaotov
'.
mutov
* to avtov ovvijet, kat
5
.
TepldAovtes Ts Xeipas kal ovutMekuevot
*.
#
AffAois, tuffvuobvres ovudhval, drvmakov ind
B
'' im
T
Aluob kai Tijs d'AA's *dpyias Bud unv dAety

:
/
xopis dAA#Acov Toleiv. kal Tre

:
tu
* droflvot
Tw
#.
Tw
e
/
/
juioecov, 8
8
Aewb6ein, 6 #AAo
A
Tv
A
- c/
6
Aewb6v
d
-
D
&#ret kal ovvetAketo, eire yuvaiks Tijs 6Ms -

Wher

".# '
#vrvyov huiaev, Aouev, etre

muvoet, 87 v kaagvue'":
6
evTvXot
al
www.yvyatka
m
oitos drAAvvro. Aejaas

l!
dvps
mi$
6
kal
6
Zeus- dAAqv umxavnv topieral, kal NOW
-
w
Tw
Tpo.6ev: Tos yp
ka
T
Whol
arw alota eis
la
*
''
x/
>
w
/
5
ToluTO kTOs eixov, Kat eyevvav kau &Tukto oilk

v
Wed
138 *'''
re
SYMPOSIUM
it said he ; I will
slice every person in two, and then
#| they must go their ways on one leg, hopping.
4. So saying, he sliced each human being in two, just
#|
* as they slice sorb-apples to make a dry preserve,
#} or eggs with hairs; and at the cleaving of each
'' he bade Apollo turn face and half-neck its the
to
#"
be
section side, order that every one might
in
made
by
:
more orderly the sight the knife's work upon of

0.
him; this done, the god was heal them up. Then
to
|
Apollo turned their faces about, and pulled their

#
"|
:
skin together from the edges over what now
is
"' called the belly, just like purses which you draw
up
string; the little opening
he
T.
close with tied

,
a
we
thethe
belly, making
so
of
middle the what know

of as in
#}#!
he
navel. For the rest, smoothed away most

the puckers and figured out the breast with some
smoothing
in
as
such instrument shoemakers use

in
the last; though

he
on
of
the wrinkles leather left

all
there few which we have just about the belly and

a
our early fall. Now when

us
of
navel, remind
to
#
two, each half

in
in
Our first form had been cut

its
again; and
to
longing for fellow would come

it
| . '| :| |
then would they fling their arms about each other

be
mutual embraces yearn grafted together,

to
in
and
till
they began perish hunger and general

of
to
do
indolence, through refusing anything apart.

to
on
of
And whenever the death one half the other

was left alone, went searching and embracing
to
it
on
might happen
of
that half the whole woman

if
it
see
woman, perchance the half
or
which now we call

a
this plight they were perishing

In
the whole man.

of
his pity provided fresh device.

in
away, when Zeus

a
He
moved their privy parts

to
the frontfor until

all
on
then they had these, like else, the outside, and

139
|
PLATO
l
(#
eis dAAj}\ovs dAA eis yv, diotep of Trtwyes uet
' 't
gnk te ov oro (Tar 2 airv eis T Tpoffew
|
C kai vd Tovtov Tiju yveow v dAA#Aous toinoe,
ld rob dppevos v t, 6
Met, rve veka, iva v
Ti ovuTAoki dua uv et dvijp yvvaiki vrxot,
yevvev kai yiywotto T yvos, ua 3 et kal dp
pm dppevu, TAmauov yobv yiywotto Tijs ovyovoias
kal T.Kal
kai ti T pya
kai tatravowto Tprrowro
8)
k
rob dAAov 8tov tueMoivro. at. obv
Doov pos ubvros dAA#Acov Tols dwptous

Ts doxalas fivoeos ovvayaoye's kai tuxetpw

k
8volv kal idoaoffat Tiju bow Thy

&v
Touffoot
dv6portivny.
"Ekaotos obv otiv dwpostov ovu
judov
BoAov, dire Tetumuvos diotep hirral, at
&
vs
airoij kaotos ovuoMov.
6)
8vo. ntet del

oot uv ov Tw dwpv Tob kowoff Tuud elow,
8,
Tte dvpyvvov kaAetro, baoyvvatks
y.T'
6
elgi kal ToMAoi Tv uovKv Towrov too

of
vows yeyvaot, kal gat yvyatkes biXavpoi

T
E
Kai uouxevTowat, Tovtov Tob yvows yiyvovtat,

gat Tw yvyatkw yuvaiks Tuud elow,
B
oil
Tvv abrat Tos dvpdot tow votiv Tpooxovow,

dAAd uAAov 7ps Ts yvvaikas retpaupval eloi,
:
Tovrov too yvovs yiyvov
k
kai talpiotpwal
ai
td
6
Tat. oot ppevos Tuud elow, dippewa buff

kova, kal Tals uv Tates &ow, dire repudyia
du
vra to dippevos, buxobot Tovs divpas kal Xai
's
'
''
192 povot ovykaTakeiuevot kal ovutetAeyuvot Tols

<}a}r'> Bury.
*
140
SYMPOSIUM
did
on
their begetting and bringing forth not
each
'6''} other but the on
earth, like the crickets. These
np the front,
he
be used for
to
to
parts now shifted
on
#70% propagating each otherin the female member

the male;
by
so
of
in
that their embrace
#|
if
means
#|
in
,
on
ments man should happen woman there
a
a
be
conception and continuation
of
kali might their
"!
#| ;
kind; and also, male met with male they might

if
have satiety relief, and

of
so
their union and
a
might turn their hands their labours and their
to
*
*
*" ordinary life. Thus anciently mutual

to
interest
is
mankind, reassembling our early
"I
love ingrained
in
o's
X
ye' estate and endeavouring
to
in
combine two one
*!
jly and heal the human sore.

tally"us, then,
man,
of
of
"Each but
is
a
a
...
since every one shows like
of
flat-fish the traces
|
having been sliced two; and each ever searching

in
is
##
the tally that will him. All the men who
fit
for
*
composite
of
at
are sections that sex that first was

are woman courters;
)
called man woman our

>
-
-
adulterers are mostly descended from that sex,

k
whence likewise derived

our man-courting
are
off
#
"| All the women who are

'' Women and adulteresses.
>
great fancy for men

no
of
sections the woman have
'B
:
women, and
of
to
they are inclined rather this stock

I|
of
are the she-minions. Men who are sections the

"I
"
male pursue the masculine, and long

so
beas
&
boyhood lasts they show themselves

to
slices
'''
by
to the
male making friends with men and delight

of ing
be
clasped
#|
lie
to
in
with them and men's

'...'
10' - -
tally, stick matching another,
*
or
notched the
is
A
*
7: #|
English equivalent
of
nearest for wagoNow, which was half

a
asa
broken die given and kept friendship; see

of
token
a
a
below, 193A (Atarai).

14
1
PLATO -
* * * *-
-
dvpot, kai/ elow offroi BAttarot Tv Taibov .
ef 5
uetpakia -
v.,
scal te divpettatov vres
#. #:
- divoet.
ot 6:/
B
qbaoi
|
Twes avtov's dvatoxvvtovs elvau, hev-
- -
-
yp ijt divatoxvvtias Toto 8pow,
1.
5
pwevot
'i
a.
w
5.
w
e
5.
w
w
*
#
#AA vTo Uappovs
f
a/\a
6
Kat avopewas kal appevotwas, To
8
*
5
uovov attois dataguevot. Weya
|
Tkuiptov:
'' :
w
7
yp TeXecoffvres uvot, droaivovow
&
eis
#
scal
-
T
ou e
Avruk dv
avopes
#Tetv 8 dv *}.
-
TroAvtuka * Towovtov. eTetoav oe avopo-
.
w
600t, Tatepaotobot kal Tps yduovs
m
B
- kai Tato.
w
/
w
ot.
Tpooxovot
-
Towias Tv, votiv fivoet, dAAd ind
-
S.
*
"
*
F.
gre
>
5.
a
rod vuov- dvaykovral

- apket
at
dAA Tols uer
''
>
.
kata
/ fiv
.
-
dAA#Acov dyuous. Tvros uv ov rot.

-
oros Talbepagi's
delw
*
5
kal blepaari's yveral,
Te
- * |:
offi
w
5
T
ovyyevs datauevos. 3raw uv kal air !"|-h.
"
-
T
*-
>
#"
/
w
*
abrod juice, kal

'.
&ceive evtxie- watepaari's
d
>/

kai d'AAos Ts, Tte kal 6avuaard kt}\ittovtat "Sri
/
v
>
\
/
*
C
3.
w
Te
divXia kai *oikeirmti kai port, ok bAovres,

djs
p
5
w
eitely, xopigeoffat dAA#Aov ov6 Gutkp"
!,
''
&ntos
-
|
w
w
of e
xpvov.
8"
''
kal 6tate Mobvres uer dAA#Aov
5 ou ea
|| |
*
*\ 3/
*
>
-
*
*
f/
7-
Biov ovtov evolv, 38
ovo av eXotev eiteuv Ao
wa
Tu
o
g
odiot tap
/
31
5
||
/
38
Aovrat dAA#Acov- yiyveoffat. ofte"-
*\ *
*
a
*
>
&v
3/dp 86&ete Tobt' elva.

dis 8
Tv dolpotalay ovyov
f
oria, dpa Tovtov

veka tepos tpq Xaipe"
e/ - 3/
ovvv oitos tl ueyd'Ans otovs. dAA dMo
"
/
ca
e
CI
/
/
/
e
oil5
f
BovMouvn katpov otiv,

An
livX
8
-
8.
8%
6
i
2.4--
Tat eitely, dAAd uavreveraw
w
'i*
D
Bovaerau, kal aivi"

- * -
w
Terau. kal airo's air katake/ev'

v
el
t)
'i''

"Hobatatos, xov
td
etwords pyava, pouro.

"
-
d
*
/
D
&off Bow}\eoffe, div6potov, juiv trap dAA#Aoy

&
6
ovevi Stob.: o36v Mss. ovirecC.

1
142
'#'
SYMPOSIUM
*#f (embraces; these are the finest boys and striplings,

they have the most manly nature. Some say
for
they are shameless creatures, but falsely: for their

#
0.l.,
-
due not to shamelessness but to daring,
is
#"
"'
behaviour
virility, since they are quick
to
manliness, and
as
of
welcome their like. Sure evidence this the
is
#!
i'
on
fact that reaching maturity these alone prove
So
be
public career when they come

"|
to
men.
&
to in
a
no
man's estate they are boy-lovers, and have
wiving and getting children, but
in
Talk natural interest

'
all
Tite Entented Tve Egethe'Twelded
are
ofto
# #|#
is
their days. any rate born

at
man this sort

A
is
*:
y|
0
boys the willing mate man,

of
of
or
be
lover
to
a
a
kind, Well,
of
eagerly greeting his own when one
!"
be
he
boy-lover any of
or
themwhether lover
p"
a
on a
other sort--happens his own particular half, the

rt") two them are wondrously thrilled with affection and
of
be
Mrs intimacy and love, and are hardly

to
induced
leave each other's side for single moment.
to
ul'
a
These are they who continue together throughout

;
:
!)
life, though they could not even say what they

#
one another. No one could imagine this

|*
of
o't would have

"# the mere amorous connexion,
be
or
that such
to
be
the reason why each rejoices the

in
alone could
company eager zest: obviously
so
other's with
a
wishing something
of
for else that

W
each
is
the soul
#|#
cannot express, only divining and darkly hinting

it
wishes. Suppose that, they lay together,

as
what
it
Hephaestus should come and stand over them, and

...
? it,
'
his
showing implements" should ask: What

is
"...] good mortals, that you would have

of
one another
\\
|
i.e.
his anvil (Od. viii. 274), bellows, tongs, and hammer

xviii. 372 foll, 474 foll.).
(Il
143
PLATO
/ -
6
'yeveovat;
- w 3. > -
atopovvtas avtovs
5. w ar */
kav et
** w
'Ap ye Tote tuffvuette,
- - - -
76Auv epolto - *:
air
#.
t)
6tt
".
v yevodal
{A
pdatota dAA#Aous,
iAA,% e/
/
diate kai vukta kal
a
jupay
t
v
u dittoxetteoffat dAA#Acov;
E
#
- yp -
el
an |
* - Towtov tt-
6vuette, 6Aao jus
ovvtiat kal
.
T'* eis
w du to \
ep ovudhvaffoal #5
5
at, diate
3/
8va5
e/
/
- vtas
er
(?,
v
va yeyovval kai aos @v
'fire, a's e/ */
- - "#.
e
>
Ovta,
*
eva. dubotpous giv, |*||
'
kouvm KOll
Ill
*
a
etevv droflvnte,
N.
"s
at
~...
")
'
v
- ket
- "Aubov duti 8volv
elval kovi Tevete
's
a-
&va
/
d'AA' dpre
*
ei
Tovtov
pre kai gapket juv
du
Towrov Txmte rabra Mk.
r
dkovoas touev vels
Q-3
-
3
gapvn6eim oft' ow8
*
/ div
Ti
dAAo */
5
havein BovXuevos, dAA drexvs
he
otolt
''
*\
*
3.
v
ev
"lite
5/
to/
dicnkoval Tobro
/
Mau dpa tew wet, avy
'th
elsf -
6
* *
eA6w kai ovvtake's T60 &pouv
''
*-
k
**:
t
8volv
/
yevo 6aw.
-
|
--
'
3.
b
*
ey
D
1:
- * yap ott
3rd
,
,
Toro 5.
T3
doxala *fiva's airtov,

*
Tib.'
',
airn kal juev 6Aot to 6\ov obv
-
%uv
jv
5".
a
-
193 mvaig
*:
"8
w
w
kai Budget
6
pos voua. and
||
cy
* kal Too To",
*
dotep Ayo,
ev
/
s
w
8w
juev. vvvi
>
''
w
w
T&v
w:
y
Thy

- Bud

* dukia"
8tokloffnuev 'id:
/
'Apics
'h
rob 6eoff, kafltep
s
We

5T AakeSatuoviaov. $68os ojv */ Tuv,

/
w
3.
/
"
*
Pl
o
* dy
W
4.
koutot duev Tps Tovs 6eows,

w
'
kal affs
We
6ta's m
u
in
*/
w
e
/
8taoxtoffmodueffa,
-
'

kal Ol
l
Yorres ort
v
rats oriMas karaypav kretvropvot,
" !'
th:
''
6,-
Templouvot
ef
#
/
kard ts divas, yeyovtes doo"

|
W6
-
e
3/
/
ef
5
Alomat. -,
*
dAAd Towrov veka Tvt dwpa Xph Ol's

'
*
ra
of
/
TapakeMeteoffat "We
"
evoeffety Tep deot's,

".
h
dis
"Epos ju"
B
uv kbyouev, Tv
B
Txople",
5
"
385
in
144 B.(
W.
W
-
SYMPOSIUM
*
t
and
he
suppose that their perplexity
in
asked
joined
be
again: Do you desire
1:
the
to
in
them
be
that you shall not
so
closest possible union,
by
by
night day your craving,

or
If
that
is
divided
*
?
am
fuse and weld you together
in
ready
to
6
a
I
#|
be
Single piece, that from being two you may made
long you live, pair you, being
of
in a as
so
#: one; that the

one, may share single life; and that when you
as
: * '; |
die
be
you may also Hades yonder one instead
two, having shared single death. Bethink
of
yourselves this your heart's desire, and you

if
if
is
or on
be
will quite contented with this lot. No one

hearing this, we are sure, would demur
to
it
| "f "'
would found wishing for anything else

be
each :
all he
would unreservedly deem that had been offered
*:
he
just what was yearning for the time, namely,

joined and fused with his beloved that the
be
so
to
#
be
two might made one.

Ty
all
this, that our original form

of
"The cause
it
is
described, and we were entire; and the #

as
Was have
I
craving and pursuit that entirety Love. /*

of
called
is
have said, we were one; but now

as
Formerly,
I
by
God,
all
for
dispersed
as
our sins we are the

by
Arcadians were the Lacedaemonians"; and we

be
afraid that we are disorderly towards

if
may well
we
be
Heaven may once more cloven asunder and

go
those outline-carvings
of
shape
in
may about the

the tombs, with our noses sawn down the middle,
on
and may thus become like tokens split dice.

of
we
of all
ought exhort our neighbours

to
Wherefore
pious observance the gods, order that we
in
to
a
to
may escape harm and attain bliss under the

Probably referring
of
the dispersal Mantinea into

to
...'
(Xenophon, Hell. foll.).

in
Villages
v.
2.
385 B.C.
1
VOL. 145
V.
L
PLATO
*
kal otpatnys. 65 pumbels vavria Tpat-
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Tro. Tpattel 8 evavria, 6atus 6eots dTex6dveral
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eis
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Trapxerat, Tapexouvov tps 6eot's evoe,
judov
k"
eis
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$
laaduevos uakaptovs kai evaiuovas Trovoat.
* *
w
''
5
3/
*
>
Offros, &#m, 'Epwiuaxe, uds Ayos "

u) &
'''I
*/ e/
o'"
*
Tept "Epotos,

dAAotos ads. diated *
d
ey
w

e3eijnv Gov, kouq.8%ams airw, iva kai To"
:
* * *
be w
Aottv drovoogev &kaoros pet, pAAov

Tt
, "
ktepos 'Aydov yp kai Xokprms Aotto:

:
E
'AAAd Tetoogai ool, n

"
0.
hval Tw
uaxov kai yap uot Ayos jaos ppijn. -
"
5
o
,
A.
Be"
&
Wi
/
>
vois
v
u%v
Xokpret
8
'Ayd6advt
Te
ovvm kal
I
| #
OW
the
146
|
*
SYMPOSIUM
*|
(l
gallant leadership of Love. Let none in act oppose
*f himand it is opposing him to incur the hate of
Heaven: if
we make friends with the god and are
7. {
reconciled, we shall have the fortune that falls to

few
our day, discovering our proper favourites.

of
in
K.
not Eryximachus interrupt my speech with

let
And
"| '''|
a
comic mock, and say
to
refer Pausanias and
I
ofbe
do
Agathon; may they belong
to
the fortunate
it
few, and are both them males by nature; what

0.
mean isand this applies

to
the whole world

if
I
#1
way bring happiness
its to
men and womenthat the
||
give our love true fulfilment:

to
let to
is
our race
every one find his own favourite, and
so
revert
... al
--
be
the best thing

his
all,
of
primal estate.
to If
this
to
all
acts open
us
the nearest approach among
to
be it
now must accordingly choose; and

to
|
the best
exactly
is,
find favourite whose nature

to
is
that
a
our mind. Love the god who brings this

is
to
he
about; fully deserves our hymns. For not only

he
bestow the priceless boon

of
the present does

in
he
our very own, but also supplies

to
us
bringing
this excellent hope for the future, that we will
if
he
supply the gods with reverent duty will restore

our ancient life and heal and help
us
into the
to
us
|
of
happiness the blest.

"There, Eryximachus, Love,
on
my discourse
is
different sort from yours. As besought you,

of
I
a
it,
no
comic sport
in of
to
make for we want hear what

the
others will say their turnI rather mean

other two, since only Agathon and Socrates are
:
eft.
"Well, will obey you, said Eryximachus, for
I
fact enjoyed your speech. Had not reason

to in
I
I
prowess Agathon
of
in
know the Socrates and

147
PLATO
* *
/
|
w w * * w 5
oot trepi T potukd, Tvv v hoffowamy w
2 a * t um
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3S

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d
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''
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in
*
w
rot
um
oix
Mk
jue's duel" P" ?"
off
GAAd ide's
W.
*#
!
148
-
SYMPOSIUM
|
-
love-matters, I should have great fears of their

f *
being at a loss for eloquence after we have heard it
MMU
in such copious variety: but you see, my confidenc -
is unshaken.
# Whereon Socrates remarked: Your own per
#.
formance, Eryximachus, made a fine hit: but if you
# could be where I am nowor rather, I should say,
* where I
shall be when Agathon has spokenyou
*}
l would be fitly and sorely afraid, and would be as
hard put to it as I am.
You want to throw a spell over me, Socrates,
said Agathon, so that I may
be flustered with the
consciousness of the high expectations the audience
has formed of my discourse.
Nay, Agathon, how forgetful I should be,
replied Socrates, if after noticing your high and
manly spirit as you stepped upon the platform
with your troupehow you sent a straight glance
at that vast assembly to show that you meant to
do yourself credit with your production, and how
you were not dismayed in the slightestif I
should
now suppose you could be flustered on account of a
few fellows like us.
Why, Socrates, said Agathon, I
hope you
do not always fancy me so puffed up with the play
house as to forget that an intelligent speaker is
more alarmed at a few men of wit than at a host
of fools.
"No, Agathon, it would be wrong of me indeed,
said Socrates, to
associate you with any such
clownish notion: I
am quite sure that on finding
yourself with a few persons whom you considered
clever you would make more account of them than
of the multitude. Yet we, perhaps, are the latter;
149
PLATO
|
* * * w * * * 5
|
Tapfuev juev Tw to AAv.
"It
ical ke? kal ei

*
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|
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ykoptov "Eport kal dro8&act Tap
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* *
| -
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pie B
Bow\ouat
s
* * *
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w
ou
uo. Tvres Tpoffew eipnkres

of
Tv 6ed"
''
*
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l
* * *

'':
Q2
-
aki
v
ea
Tv dyadv
3
akir
6eds affrots airtos rotos
d

*
i
rel
div
195 Tus airs tara 8opfoato, obels eiomke'.
"
i.
/
els
8
Tptos dp60s Tavrs traivov repi Tavrs, "...' On.

* *
-
...1
/
*
...
*/
*
' 8.
v
6.
l
Ayo 8teadew otos otov airios rvyxve

olos oldov Schanz: oios &v MSS.
1.
''
150
SYMPOSIUM
- -
4
were there, and among the crowd: but

we
for
#|
suppose you found yourself with other folk who
were clever, you would probably feel ashamed that
they should witness any shameful act you might
be
feel yourself doing. Will you agree
to
to
that ?
y
"Quite true, he said.

Whereas before the multitude you would not
*}
be
if
ashamed you felt you were doing anything

shameful ?
#
Here Phaedrus interposed: My dear Agathon,

.
go
utterly
be
he
to on
you answering Socrates will

if
our present business,

of
so
indifferent the fate
argue with, especially
he
to
'
as
long has some one

For my part, enjoy listening
#
some one handsome.

I
Socrates arguments; but am responsible for

to
|
#
Love, and must levy speech from

of of
our eulogy
a
|
you you two,

of
turn. Let each

in
every one
then, give the god his meed before you have your
argument. -
"You are quite right, Phaedrus, said Agathon,

and there nothing hinder my speaking; for
is
to
"
shall find many other occasions for arguing with

I
Socrates.
of
The Speech Agathon

"I
the plan most proper

of
speak
to
propose first
of my
Every
for
speaking, and after that speak.

to
eulogizing
of
one the previous speakers, instead

the god, has merely, me, felicitated
as
to
seems
it
he
on
of
humanity the benefits bestows: not one

us
of
them has told what the nature the benefactor

is
giving
of
There but one correct method

is
himself.
anyone any kind praise, namely
of
to
make the
Words unfold the character of him, and of the bless
151
PLATO
*
6 Ayos * f
'.
Ot) div
oito )
e
s
/ #. \
Toora kal
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* Tv muas
#
"P"To" Tv ols ortv,5 grewa

3/
at
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\|
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-
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'.
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ari
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Golotov. *
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| '' |''
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s?
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v
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my
"At ded, T
* }
o,
ov6' vros Stob.

152 vros, ov6' vros Mss.
:
t;
*:
SYMPOSIUM
ings brought by him, who is to be our theme. Hence
#
he
meet that we praise him first for what
is
andis
it
...
for
"
he
what
then gives.
all
"So say that, while gods are blissful, Love
I
spokenis the
no
irreverence offence be or
it
it
with
most blissful, being the most beautiful and the
as
| #:
best. How most beautiful, will explain. First
of
")"I ...)
I
all,
he
Phaedrus, youngest the gods. He himself of

is
this; for
he
of
supplies clear evidence flies and

32
' |
flees from old agea swift thing obviously, since

liking.
on
quickly for our Love

us
gains too
it
;
of by
,
nature, and refuses come within any
to
it
hates
:
He ever consorting with the young,

it.
he is
distance
and such also well says the old saw, Like
| ri s
is
and like together strike. And though

in
much
agree with Phaedrus, agree not, that
in
else this
I
I
by
his account more ancient than Cronos

he is
Love
!
and Iapetus say youngest the gods and

of
is
I
*
:
'
ever young, while those early dealings with the

gods which Hesiod and Parmenides relate, take
of I
*
Necessity, not Love,

of
have been the work

to
any truth those stories. For there

in
there
is
if
no
gelding fettering
of
or
would have been each

other, nor any violences,
of
Love had
if
those various
been amongst them; rather only amity and peace,
now subsist ever since Love has reigned over
as
such
he
a So
the gods. then young, and delicate withal:

is
poet such
to
Homer
he
as
requires set forth his

of
Ate
as
delicacy divine. Homer who tells

is
it
So
Homer, Od. xvii. 218 Heaven ever bringeth

*
like and like together.

These two Titans, the sons Heaven and Earth, were
of
*
proverbially the original inhabitants

of
the world.
#
Hesiod, Theog. 176 foll., 746 foll. There are no such

*
the remaining fragments

of
Parmenides.
in
stories
*|
53
I
PLATO
*
67%iv-To's yo5,
Myov
*
768as awths dwaxo's elva
*
|
*
#
off
5 3/
This Pv6 */ dwaxoi T8es yp t offbeos
*
ey
*
>
7tavarat, dAA dpa.
/
Ye
divpv kpata 8aivet.
/
kat'
?
kaA ov 8oke?
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Tekumpiq, Tiju (ima)&rmra
T &r
dToffaivetv, ok ent okampob Baivet,
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of
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eval. veditaros plv
To ff
ot kal dTaxratos,
Tps
B
Tourous byps
&y
oil
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jv
ols Tvtm Tepitrijo

T'
Geoffat o8 8td. Tdoms

r
'huxis kai elovdiv Tptov

Mav6dvew kal idv,
el
fiv.
ovuurpov
of
Amps
3
kai bypas Bas Pya Tekuiptov

ca
evoxmuodvum,
8)
Bahepvros
ek
Tavrov duo Moyovuvals

"Epcos xei. doxmuogv,
dAA#Aovs del T&Aegos.
yp kai "Eport "p's
Xpas
84
Kd2\\os kat
dun Biara ro5 6-off
B
kal
Gminaivet dvav6et yap

d7muffmkr ka: Guart kal
'huxi kai d'AAq, dropoff,
&y
ok vie. "Epos,
of
Te
8
eav6 kal ejms

is
#,
Ttos vraba kal

#et kal uv.
154
-- -
SYMPOSIUM
*
('l both divine and delicate; you recollect those

delicate feet of hers, where he says
N Yet delicate are her feet, for on the ground
060.
She speeds not, only on the heads of men."
"| So I hold it convincing proof of her delicacy that

,
'
she
on
on
hard things but
goes not soft. The same
us
to
will serve prove the delicacy
of
method Love.
Not upon earth goes he, nor our crowns, which on
*
soft;
are
not very but takes his way and abode

*
*
the
softest things that exist. The tempers and

#
in
l
gods and men are his chosen habitation:
of
Souls
not
hehe
another; when
as
indeed any soul

as
much
comes upon one whose temper hard, away
#!
is
he
soft, makes his dwelling there.

be
|#
goes, but
if
it
get
he
with feet and every way

So
wont ever
to
is
if
the softest parts the softest creatures,

of
of
hold
most delicate. Youngest, then,
be
he
needs must
| ''' |
he, and withal pliant

of
and most delicate form

is
:
he
to
for would never contrive fold himself about

every way, nor begin by stealing
of
in
and out
us
he
every soulso secretly, were hard. Clear evidence

if
/
proportion and pliancy
his
in
of
fit
form found
his of
is is
-
shapely grace, quality wherein Love every
in
to a
quarter allowed excel unshapeliness and Love'N'

:
are
war with one another. Beauty

of
foris at
ever hue
by
this god evinced his seeking his food among

in
on
body
or
flowers: Love will not settle soul

to or
aught else that flowerless whose flower has

is
or
he
light plot
on
faded away; while has only

to
sweet blossoms and scents settle there and

of
stay.
Il.
Homer, xix. 92-93.

*
he
of
at
Perhaps here
or
smiles touches the bald head

*
Socrates.
*
155
|
- |
PLATO |
f
-
|
-
IIept uv ov *- *n?
kAAovs rob kai
:
ikava kai tv ToMAd Aetteral, Tept -fleob - Tab */
#
-
*-
tos uerd Tabra Aektov, be dpetis "Epo-
to
ef
-
...
3/
- uv uytotov
5 tt
3/
5.
Epos
5
*/
>
''.
or d8tket
5
ot ducetral 3/off
#
to v
3/
#6
6
/
oire 6ev, o6'
*//n5
57>
e
deo"
/
dv6ptov ore dvdpotov.
>/
-
6
oire yap
airs Big Toxet,
*
/
:
/
ei
Tt
"Eporos ox TTeral Toxee Big Yap
C
yp
oire Towow Towei
kov "Epott Tv 57mpetet, Ts
div
3
kw ekvt.
&
duoMoyffan, baoiv
ot TAeos Baotai's vpot" "twin
t-
ikata elva. Tods

8
si
Ti
'i
C.
Bukaloown adoppooft's
TAetorms uerxet, elva, yap
duoMoyetta golfpo
own
'.
to
kpatetv jovv
''
kal tuffvuov, "Epa,Tos
8
unbeulav joviv kpetro

elva
B
el
kpatolvir #TTows,
v
*l.

57 "Eporos,
8
kpatoi, kpat" d
v 8
jovv kai
tuffvutv "Epos 8tapepvtos.

God povol. kai

''.
o ye
unveis dvpetav "Eport
ovo "Apns div6iotarau.
D
yp xet "Epa,To
ke
"Apns, dAA "Epos "Apn, 'Adipobirns,
dis
|
kpeittov Ayos'
6
xov Tob

xopuvov. Tod
6
dvpelo"
Ttov Tv dAAov kpatv
dy
Tvtov dvpettatos
ein. Tepi uv obv
lcai
Bukaloowns kai Golfpool's
dvpeias to 6eo5 epmrat, ''
Wh
Tepi gotias
be
Meitetat. 6Gov obv 8vvarv, Teparov

ui
kai Tptov uv, AAite".

a
iv
kai y, Tijv
Txvmi Tugo #uetpay

diotep
'
ald]
'Epwiuaxos Tiv atto",
**i.
E
Townths fles Gods oros

Townga" Ts yobi
&ore kai Mo"
Toint's yiyveral, ky duovgos **i.
*#
To
Tpw,
dv
of
t
"Epoos lmTat.
6,
ils Tb"
8
',
LapTwpiq
67
Xpnoffat,
Toumri's "Epo's
d
.
Quoted from Alcidamas,
*
Gorgias stylist
of
of
a
Aristot. Rhet. iii. 1406 the school

;
a.
156
#
-
SYMPOSIUM
:(|
'':; "Enough has now been said, though much remains
unsaid, of the beauty of our god; next shall Love's
": goodness be my theme. The strongest plea for

Tils
this
he
that neither god gives nor from
to
is
a
god
a
receives any injury, nor from men receives
#
'' *
nor
it
#"
he
it.
gives For neither the usage himself
is
|--
to
men
#3
gets violent usage, since violence takes not hold

a
ri;
Love; nor his dealings, since
in
there violence
of
is
}
men's willing service; and agreements

all
Love wins
just by
be
both sides willingly made are held
to
on
# 'our city's sovereign, the law." Then, over and

he
richly endowed with tem

his justice,
is
above
: |
all
perance. We agree that temperance control

is is
a
::
"f
no
pleasures and desires, while pleasure stronger

of
*
be
than Love: they are the weaker, they must
if
their controller;
under Love's control, and he
is
by
that Love, controlling pleasures and desires,

so
#
eminently temperate. And observe how

'''
be
must
valour not even the God War withstands
of
in
by
we
for
hear, not Love caught Ares,

of
M% him;
#
by
Ares caught Loveof Aphrodite. The

of
*|
but
stronger than the caught; and
as
captor he
is
he
any other,
\|
controls what braver than must

is
it for
temper
So
"# justice
of
all. much and

be
bravest
|*| ance and valour god: speak
of
to
in
the remains
# skill; and here must try my best be adequate.
to
I
turn may dignify our craft Eryxi

*
as
First,
in
if
I
machus did his, the god composer accomplished

so
is
#
composing others: every

of
he
in
cause
is
that
a
One, you know, becomes poet, though alien

to
a
:

'''
the
Muse before, when Love gets hold

of
him.
*
may fitly take for

we
This testimony that Love

a
Sophocl. Thyest. fr. 235 Necessity, whom not the God

*
War withstands. Eurip. Stheneb. fr. 663.

of
157
PLATO
5 w * * * w w
|
dyads A
kebaMaig Tqav
*
l',
lap.
v / u w 3/ Toimow
w
Thy kard
An
vT's
u
197 uovoucv' & ydp xe olev, oir

fi
*/ *\
>
/
e
n
oir
8) w
rpq 8oin #AA
8
8
d'AAov 8tdgete. kal uv
8
.
ye
Tjw Tv %av Troinov Tavrov ts vavridioetal
ovyi "Epotos elva. Godhiav,
w
pu) yiyvetai
Te
Kal
f
pa; dAAd riv Tw texvw
td
''
diveral Tavra
| s
mutovpyiav offic touev, rt
off
uv dvd 6eds otiros
*
/
w
/
yvntal, MAyuos kai havs dr8,
*
ldakaxos
*
ye o
"Epos
*
div
*
ui
bdibntat, okotetvs; togukiy
6'
*uiv latpukjv
00
kai kal uavrukhv 'AtMoy
>
*
dvetipev
ey tuffvuias
* kai poros iyeuove"gavros:
ein
digre kai offros "Eporos.
''
uaffntis,
T Kaikal
iv
'#'

BMojoa- Atovouki's kal "Hatoros. XaAkelas
- * Ak."
>
A6my iotovpyias kai Zeis kvepvv 6ew
-
*
w
- div6ptov.
6
scal kareakevdoffm -Tw 66ev kal
Tw
Tpyuata "Epcotos yyevouvov, 36Ao
's
6ew
ey
15
f
*
yp ok mi "Epos. Tp Toll
a
rt kAAovs'
ef
atoxet
* -
/
*
, diotep
dis v
(
dpx elnov, ToMA kal Bewd 6eois
*
'a'
/
*
/
Avra, Bud Tiv */ Tijs, Awdyk's
-
ylyveto,
''
'..... --
2
ros v,
w
3'8
>
e
*:
-
A
- 8%
k
)
Bagtaetav 66eds Tojp'

of
* eneto. *
f
/
5
kai
Tv kaRv Tvt dyadd yyove kal 6eois
'I
:
dv6patous.
a. * - *
Otos*\ uol Boket, Dafpe, "Epos Tptos
' t
bot
C
-
&
-
div
ars kanMotos kal dpuoros uer roro Tols

dAAous AAdov Totovrov airios elva. npyera. c
B
's
got kai ppletpov eitetv, rt offrs otiv toty
tu
||
d
elprny per' dutpnos, zeadye, ya%rm

vi88
wnwealav, -vuov koirmv invov kje"

'"g
t
::
4m6
Agathon here strains the meaning

the
of
for
rotirms back
to
1
#.
||
original and wider one

Cf.
maker, creator.
of
- below.
B,
205
C.
-
#
y,
l,
72; above,
Il.
Homer,
39
827,
ii.
190 fin.
i.
2
Otn.,...
158 "Olin
SYMPOSIUM
,
all
is a poet well skilledI speak summarilyin
!
If
with music; for whatever
do
to
composing that has
0.
know not we can neither give
to
or
We
have not
another nor teach our neighbour. And who, let
all
of
ask, will gainsay that the composing"
me
in all
Love's own craft, whereby creatures
of
life
is
forms
Again, artificial
are
begotten and produced

?
}
do
manufacture, we not know that man who has this
a
"I
god for teacher turns out brilliant success, whereas

a
|
If
on whom Love has laid no hold
is
obscure
he
?
Apollo invented archery and medicine and divina
was under the guidance Desire and Love;
a of
tion,
it
of
be
too may disciple

he
that deemed Love.

in as so
music, Hephaestus
|
in
likewise may the Muses

weaving and Zeus in
in
metal-work, Athene
|
gods and men. Hence also those

of of
pilotage
dealings the gods were contrived by Love
beautyastir them, for Love has
in
of
clearly love
concern with ugliness; though aforetime,
as
no
saying, there were many strange doings

by
began
of
among the gods, legend tells, because the

as
Necessity. But since this god arose,

of of
dominion
all
the loving beautiful things has brought kinds

-*
gods and
to
men.
to
benefits both
of
Thus conceive, Phaedrus, that Love was

of I
originally surpassing beauty and goodness, and

in
of
latterly the cause similar excellences others.

is
verse,
of
summon the aid

to
And now am moved

I
and tell how he who makes

is
it
Peace among men, and windless waveless main

;
a
Repose for winds, and slumber our pain."

in
Cf. Parmen. (Diels 123) 5atuwu rvra Kv3epv.

*
391 Then ceased the wind, and came

a
v.
Cf. Od.
*
calm. Agathon here displaying his own poetic

is
Windless
skill, not quoting.
1.59
PLATO
D of ros.
8&
8 jus dAAotpirntos uv kevoi, oikeirntos
TAmpol, Ts Toudobe ovvovs uet
Tagas ruffels ovvvval, v optats, v Xopots,
dAA#Aov
''.
#.
|:
v
6votas ytyvuevos jyeudv Tpgrnta uv tropi-
gov, dyptrnta 6 &#opiov buMopos evuevelas,
dopos 8vouevelas Aeos dyavs' 6eats Gofiots, |
's
:.
dyaats 6eois &mAots duopols, ktmrs
eiuoi
pots. Tovbijs, d8pTntos, XAts, Xapirov, iupov,
Tatip: tueA's dyadov, due}\}s kakw
"in
T0ov
E v tvo, v b89, ev Tto, v Ayo kv6epvrms,
tuffrms, Tapaotrns kai oothp
*
Oft
Te dowatos,
/
ovutvrov 6ew kai dvdpTov koptos,

Te
On
jyeudy
'"
|
KAAwatos kal dolotos, 6 xpi neoffat Tvra
#
,
dvpa vuvobvra kaAs, 658
is
uerxovta
in
det 6Ayov Tavrov 6ew
re kal div6ptaly
he
vmua.
k
Oros, tin, tap duob A&yos,
N.
Datope, T6
d
| |
Ph
6e dvakeio 6ao,
rd
P
Tatws,
6
puv otovs
**
ep
f
uetpias, ka0' 6aov yd, 8vyapat, uerxov.

5
*!
/
3.
*
Eirvros Tob 'Aydovos Tvras &#) ||

B
198
:
oil2Taiel kaldis d
'Aptornuos dvadopw8iga rows Tapvras,
** s is
'i'
Tpetvros Tob ther
: '.
kal air
weaviakov eipnkros
t
oth
'
fle. Tv Xokptm eitetv 8Ahavra
ool
Tv 'Eoviuaxov, "Ap
'' itm
* Bok, #dval, '
\&
CN
>
5
Akovuevoi, dees td.Xav 8os Bevval, dAA

v
3
\
gavruks-
6r
-
viv &Aeyov eitetv, 'Ayflow
8

dataotos pot, #yd, dropigout, -

DO
3
T
-
haval Tw 'Epvuaxov, uavruks
/
uv*- tepov,
*
o
&rt
w
et >
uot 8oke's epmkval, Aydflow

B
||
to
pet
3
g
topiaev, ok oiuat.
dryavs Usen. dyads Mss. dyado's Stob.
1
Trg Bury:
:
Tr64. Mss.
*
pro
160
*#)
d
I
!
%)
SYMPOSIUM
|
writ: He out, draws intimacy
it is who casts alienation
M'
in;
together such friendly gatherings
in
us
he
brings
T. #|,
the present; at
feasts and dances and oblations
he as
makes himself our leader; politeness contriving,
- *
kind giver amity, giving
of
"...] moroseness outdriving
;
enmity; gracious, superb; marvel
to
no
the
:
a
delight the gods; coveted
of
as
to
Wise, such
a
|
share him not, treasured good

of
as
such share have
|ff: got; father luxury, tenderness, elegance, graces
"|
of
...
"
and longing and yearning; the good,
in of
"| careful
*
bad; fear,
of
toil and drink and

in
"|
careless the
discourse, our trustiest helmsman, boatswain, cham
#| pion, deliverer; ornament all gods and men;
of
") leader fairest and best, whom every one should

joining tunefully his song,
of
in
follow, the burthen

#|
a
he
enchants the thought every god

of
wherewith
and man.
said, is the speech
he
Phaedrus,
There,
to I
:
his shrine have done my best

at
would offer
:
I
:
mingle amusement with decent gravity.

a
At
Agathon's speech,
of
as
the end Aristodemus

|
all
"...]
told me, there was tumultuous applause from

hearing youngster speak
in
the terms
at
present,
'' |
appropriate god.
a to
to
himself and the Then

so
Socrates, with glance Eryximachus, said:

at
* *
alldo
un
an
Acumenus, you really call

of
"Son
it
fearful fear that has this while affrighted me,

|
saying just now that

no
prophet
in
and myself
*
be
Agathon would make marvellous speech, and

a
put it?
to
hard
#
he
"In one part your statement, that

of
would
''
speak finely, replied Eryximachus, think you I

prophet; your being hard
as
to
were true but

a
it,
do
put not agree.

to
M 161
W.
WOL.
PLATO A.
Kai Ts, - uakple,

''*
'.
Tv >okptm,
oil
eitetv
-
Sl
5/
>
w
5
/
/
puAAo dropetv kai yd kai d'AAos dotto obv, uA
/
Acov Aew uet kaAv oro kai Tavroatv Myov
/
T
findvra; kai uv dAAa oily duoia's uv 6avuaqtd.
Q.5 - * * |''
rw
>
/
2
is
/
}
relevris rob kAAovs Tv duourov kai
:
ent
3
'',
sy
#"
a.
ov
c
*
5
5
pmuatov
/
ovk av egetAdyn dkovov;
v

Tws tei yaye
e/ */
Iw: |
/

>
#
*
5
T' 5
*
/
38
ott avtos ovX ols
6
ov
evt/vpuovuevos, egopiat
*
/
yyi's Towrov ovv kaRv eitely, 5t aloxvvms
C
#h
|
*
oAyov attoopas 4x6", ||
5.
'
w
w
*/
*
Milt
/

3At
Of
8

an
*:
exov. kal Yap
et
T e
Topyiov Ayos dveuiuvmokev, diate drexvs

Too
Ouipov
"
uff

enervn &ooften
TeAevrw 'Aydflow Topylov keba), Belvoi, "wi
d
T
Ayew Ayo udy Ayou

av
&mi Tv tphas
s'
eye-

dhovia Torigee:Hkal
We
Ti
arw Aidov
vmoa Tte dpa karayAaotos div, jvika un

duoMyovv T upet ue6' 5uv ykoudaeoffat
v
"Epota kal
T
potik,
D
Tv &bmv elva. Betvs
,

dis
ov eld's pa to Tpayuaros, &et ykapu- Ought
#
57
ew ttobv. yd piv yp dBe}\repias dipmy
Betv tMm6% Ayetv Tept kdorov To ykoulalo- * ..."p

uvov, kal Tobro uv tpxeuv, airv totroy
8
&#
dis
t
kAAuota kMeyouvows emperotara Tiff

6s
uya tipvovv
8)
val: Kai Tvv pv,

et
is
els Tv dAff6etav fro rawetv rtobv]."

T
||
8
dis
dpa,
dis o
T
jv
&oukev, Toro kaAs tavy Whic

T
EdTwov, dAAd uylota dva tuffval

T
"pdy-
'"d
# r
#
dis
&
platt scal kAAuota, du oros

Te
xovra 639
ro rlobu secl. Badham.

*
.
.
.
162
-
SYMPOSIUM
But surely, my good sir, said Socrates, am I

bound to be hard put, I or anyone else in the world
who should have to speak after such a fine assort

ment of eloquence. The greater part of it was not
so very astounding; but when we drew towards
the
close, the beauty the words and phrases

of
# could not but take one's breath away. For myself,
should fail say
as so
conscious that
to
indeed,
|
was
"
I
on
anything half fine, that for very shame was
...]
:
I
the
point slinking away, had any

of
had chance.
j
his
Gorgias
of
so
For speech reminded me that

#1
*!
I I
a
by
exactly the plight described Homer:
in
"...
was
Agathon phrases would con
in
feared that his final

f
## *|
by
me
front with the eloquent Gorgias head, and

opposing his speech
to
mine would turn me thus dumb

founded into stone: And
so
in
that moment realized

I
fall with your pro

in
ridiculous fool
to
what was
I
a
should take my turn your eulogies

of
in
posal that
I
an
call myself expert love-matters,

in
Love, and
to
was ignorant
at of
when really the method which

in
I
be
eulogies ought
as to
made all. For was such

I
think that one ought

to
in
silly wretch each

a
speak the truth about the person eulogized;

to
case
this assumption hoped we might pick out the
on
the facts and set these forth their

in
of
fairest
comeliest guise. was quite elated with the notion
I
fine speech should make, for felt

of
what
I
I
a
that knew the truth. But now, appears

it
I
by
good speech
of
that this not what meant

is
is
...
rather an ascription
of
praise; which all the

is
"|
be
highest and fairest qualities, whether the case

xi.
632, where Odysseus sore afraid that Perse

|
Od.
is
1
up
the Gorgon's head among the crowd

of
phone will send

#
ghosts from Hades. Agathon has just displayed his addic

Gorgias.
of
the elegant rhetoric

to
tion
163
PLATO
re el oe tfjevSrj, ovSev dp'
r)v
[At]- 7rpayp.a. npdup-
prfOr) yap, d>s eoiKev, 07tcos eKaoros r)p,d>v rov
"Epaira eyK(iip.idZ,eiv Soêi,1 ovx ottids eyKU)p.ido-erai.
Sid ravra 8ij, otp,ai, rtdvra Xoyov Kivovvres dva-
rlOere tu> "Epom, Kai <f>are avrov roiovrov re
etvat, Kai rooovrwv alriov, oncos dv cos
<f>alvr]rai
199 KdXXiaros Kai dpiaros, 8fjXov on rails p-r) yiyva>-
OKOvaiv ov yap ttov rols ye etSdox Kai koXois
eirawos. dXXa yap eydi ovk
d
exei^Kal oep.vd>s
y
rjSr) rov rponov rod enalvov, ovB' elBcbs vpiiv

<Lp,oX6yr]oa Kai avros ev ru> p,epei eTraiveaeaOai.
yXwaaa ovv vneoxero, Se <f>prjv ov- âiperco S77.
fj
r)
ov yap en, eyKcup,idâ> rovrov rov rponov ov yap

dv 8walp.r)v ov p.evroi dXXa rd ye dXrjOrj,
el
fiov-
B
Xeade, edeXco elnelv /car' ep,avr6v, ov npos rovs

vp,eripovs Xoyovs, Iva p,r) yeXwra o<j)Xu>. opa
ovv, a OcuSpe, el ri Kai roiovrov Xoyov o'er), nepi
"Upcoros rdXrjOyj Xeyofieva aKOveiv, ovop.aai Se
Kai Beaei p-qp,driov roiavrj] onola dv rig rv)(rj
8r)
eireXdovaa.
Tov ovv Qatopov Kai rovs dXXovs KeXeveiv
etfirj
Xeyeiv, 07777
avros otoiro Seiv elnetv, ravrrj.
"En roivvv, <f>dvai, a> OatSpe, Trapes p.01 'Ayd-
du>va apxKp' drra epeodai, Iva dvop.oXoyrjo'd-
p,evos nap' avrov ovrcos 77871 Xeyw.
'AAAa Traplrjp,i, rov <&ai8pov, dXX' epojra.
C
<f)dvai
ravra rov HcoKparrj ec^rj evdevoe ttoOcv
877
p.erd
dpijaodai.
Steph. ass.
1
S6ei Sb^jj
:
164
SYMPOSIUM
so or not ; it is really no matter if they are untrue.
Our arrangement, it seems, was that each should
appear to eulogize Love, not that he should make a
real eulogy. Hence it is, sirs, I suppose, that you
muster every kind of phrase for your tribute to
Love, declaring such and such to be his character
and influence, in order to present him in the best
and fairest light ; successfully, of course, before
those who do not know him, though it must be
otherwise before those who do ; your praise has
such a fine impressive air ! No, I find I was quite
mistaken as to the method required ; it was in
ignorance that I agreed to take my turn in the
'
round of praising. The tongue,' you see, under
' '
took, the mind did not ; 1 so good-bye to my bond.
I am not to be called upon now as an eulogist int
your sense ; for such I cannot be. Nevertheless!
I am ready, if you like, to speak the mere truthj
in my own way ; not to rival your discourses, and 1
so be your laughing-stock. Decide then, Phaedrus, I
whether you have any need of such a speech besides, \ A
and would like to hear the truth told about Love in \ t>
whatsoever style of terms and phrases may chance \
to occur by the way."
So Phaedrus and the others bade him speak, just
in any manner he himself should think fit.
"
Then allow me further, Phaedrus, to put some
little questions to Agathon, so as to secure his
agreement before I begin my speech."
" "
You have my leave," said Phaedrus ; so ask
him." After that, my friend told me, Socrates
started off in this sort of way :
1
Eurip. Hippol. 612 " The tongue hath sworn ; the
mind is yet unsworn."
165
PLATO
Kal jxrjv, Si (f>lXe 'Ayddcov, KaXcos p-oi e8oas
KaOrjyrjoaodat, tov Xoyov, Xeycov on irpwrov p,ev
Se'oi avTov emSetâi oirolos ris eoTW 6 "Epcos,
varepov Se ra epya avrov. ravrqv tt)v dpxqv
ndvv dyafiai. Wi ovv /not Trepl "Epcoros, eneiSr)
Kal TaXXa KaXcos Kal peyaXowpeTrcos 8iijX6es olos
D icrri, ical rdSe elne' Ttorepov lor ifoiovTOS olos
elvai twos 6 "Epcos epcos, r) ovSevos; epcoTco 8'
ovk ei [irjrpos twos r) iraTpos ioTt, yeXolov yap
av ecrj to epcoTr)p,a, el "Epojs iaTW epcos pvqTpos i)
naTpos aAA ojonep av el avTO tovto iraTepa
r/pcoTcov, dpa o Trarqp ectri iraTrjp twos rj ov;
elites av Brjirov p,oi, el efiovXov koXojs avo-
Kpwaadai, otl eoTW vleos ye r] OvyaTpos 6 TraT-qp
TTaTTjp' r) ov;
Ilavu ye, <f>avai tov AydOoova.
Ovkovv Kal r) p.y]Tf\p oboavrcos; 'OpoXoyeZodai
Kal TOVTO.
E Eti tolvvv, el-nelv tov
HcoKpaTT], anoKpwai
oXlycp TrXelco, Iva p,a,XXov KaTap,ddr)s o j3ovXofj.ai.
/ e. / y t> \ I t /]* "
ei yap epoiHTjv, ti oe; aoeA<pos, avro tovu oirep
y \ y f y \
eoTW, eoTi twos aoeAcpos 17 ov; avai eivai.

Ovkovv a8eX<f>ov rj d$eX<j>rjs; 'Op.oXoyeiv.
Heipco 8rj, <f>dvai, Kal tov epcoTa el-nelv. 6
"Epcos epcos Iotw ovSevos r) twos;
200 Ilavu p,ev oSv eoTW.
Tovto p,kv toLvvv, elireiv tov 'ZcoKpaTrj, <f>vXai;ov
irapd oavru) p.ep,vrjp.evos orov ToaovSe Se elire,
iroTepov 6 "Epcos eKewov, oS eorw epcos, emdvp,el
avrov rj ov;
Ilavi) ye, <f)dvai.
166
SYMPOSIUM
" I must say, my dear Agathon, you gave your
speech an excellent introduction, by stating that
your duty was first to display the character of Love,
and then to treat of his acts. Those opening words
I thoroughly admire. So come now, complete your
beautiful and magnificent description of Love, and
tell me this : Are we so to view his character as to
take Love to be love of some object, or of none ?
My question is not whether he is love of a mother
or a father how absurd it would be to ask whether
Love is love of mother or father ! but as though I
'
were asking about our notion of father,' whether
one's father is a father of somebody or not. Surely
you would say, if you cared to give the proper
answer, that the father is father of son or of daughter,
"
would you not ?
" Yes, of course," said
Agathon.
" And "
you would say the same of the mother ?
He agreed to this too.
"
Then will you give me just a few more answers,"
"
said Socrates, so that you may the better grasp
my meaning ? Suppose I were to ask you, Well
'
now, a brother, viewed in the abstract, is he brother

' "
6
of somebody or not ?
"
He is," said Agathon.
" "
That is, of brother or of sister ? He agreed.
"
Now try and tell me about Love : is he a love of
"
nothing or of something ? JjJ^
"
Of something, to be sure." &'
" Now then," said Socrates, "
keep carefully in a,
mind what is the object of Love, and only tell me . *\*
whether he desires the particular thing that is his *T fr~
object." J)
" Yes,
to be sure," he replied. 1
\
167
PLATO
Uorepov \o)V avro ov em6vp,ei re /cat epa, cira
emdvp,ei T Kal epa, rj ovk Xa}V>
Ovk exwv> coy to eiKos ye, <f>dvai.
HiKoirei 877, ehnelv tov Ea>/cpaT7i, avri rod cikotos
B el avdyiaj ovtcos, to
emdvp.ovv em6vp.elv ov
ev8ees eoTiv, rj p.rj emdvp.eiv, eav p.rj evSeej fj;
e/xoi p,ev yap davpaordis SoKet, cS 'Ayddtov, u>s
avdyKr] etvai' ool Se ttws;
Ka/xot, <f>avai, So/cei.
KaAcD? Xeyeis- dp' ovv fiovXoiT dv tis p-eyas
u>v p,eyas etvai, rj loxvpos div loxvpos;
'ASwarov eK tu>v copoXoyrjp,evu)V .
Ov ydp ttov ev8erjs dv eirj tovtwv 6 ye wv.

'AXrjdrj Xeyeis
Ei yap Kal loxvpos d)v fiovXoiTO loxvpos elvat,
<f>dvai tov "EicoKpaTTj, /cat raûy wv ra^vy, /cat
vyirjs wv vyirjs lows yap dv Tty Tavra olr/deirj
C Kal irdvTa to. Toiavra, tovs oVray re toiovtovs
/cat exovTas Tavra tovtouv arrep exovoi /cat em-
6vp,eiv, iv' ovv prj eaTraTr)6wp,ev, tovtov eve/ca
Xiyw tovtols ydp, w 'Ayddwv, el ewoeis, exLV
p,ev e/caCTTa tovtwv ev tu> rrapovTi dvdyKrj a
exovoiv, eav re flovXwvTai eav Te pvq,
/cat tovtov
ye 87777011 ti's dv im6vp.rjoet.ev; dXX' orav tis
Xeyrj Sri eyw vyialvwv fiovXop,ai /cat vyiaiveiv,
/cat ttXovtwv fSovXop.ai /cat TrXovrelv, Kal erriQvpw
avTcov tovtwv a exw, elrtoip.ev dv avrut on ov,
D w dvdpcDTre, ttXovtov KKTrjp.evos /cat uytetav /cat
loxvv fiovXei Kal els tov erreira xpdvov Tavra
KeKTrjodai, errel ev tu> ye vvv rrapovri, eire fiovXei
etre p,rj, eêty OKorrei ovv, orav tovto Xeyr/s, on
im8vp.u> Ttov TrapovTcov, el dXXo ti Xeyeis rj ToSe,
lti8
SYMPOSIUM
" Has he or has he not the object of his desire
"
and love when he desires and loves it ?
He does not have it, most likely," he said.
"
Not as a likelihood," said Socrates, but as a
necessity, consider if the desiring subject must
have desire for something it lacks, and again, no
desire if it has no lack. I
at least, Agathon, am
perfectly sure it is a necessity. How does it strike
"
you ?
" I
am sure of it also," said he.
"
Very good. Now could a tall man wish to be
tall, or a strong man to be strong ? "
"
By what has been admitted, this is impossible."
" Since, I
suppose, the man in each case would
not be lacking the quality mentioned."
" True."
" For
if,
being strong, he should wish to be strong,"

"
said Socrates, or being swift, to be swift, or being
healthy, to be healthy, since we are apt to suppose
in these and all such cases that men of this or that
sort, possessing these qualities, do also desire
what they have already put this in, to prevent
I
:
any misconception these men, Agathon,

if
you
;
consider, are bound to have at the very moment

each thing that they have whether they wish or
it
not and how, ask, a man going to desire that

is
I
?
;
No, when a person says, being healthy, want to

'
I
be healthy being rich, want to be rich desire

I
I
;
the very things that have we shall tell him,

'
I
My good sir, riches you possess, and health and

'
strength, which you would like to possess in the

future also for the time now present you have
:
them whether you would or no. When you say

desire these present things we suggest you are
/
169
PLATO
on /8ouAo/xat ra
Trapovra /cat els tov e-nei/ra
vvv
Xpovov napelvar aAAo ti o/xoAoyot dv; TiVfufxivcu
e<f>r]
tov ''Ayddcova.
8rj
Et7reiv tov HcoKpaTT], Ovkovv tovto eorlv
y
eKeivov epav, o ovnco eroifiov avTcp earlv ovoe
eyei, to eis tov eneiTa xpovov TavTa etvcu avrcp
ocpl,6p,eva /cat del1 TrapovTa;
aw ye,
II
</>dvai.
Kai ovtos dpa emOvp,cov tov
kcu aAAo? tt&s
E
6
prq eToip-ov eTTidvfxel /cat tov p/r) trapovTOS, /cat o
p,rj eêi Kai o p.r) eoTiv avros /cat od evSerjs eon,
ToiavT arTa earlv cov em.9vp.ia re /cat epcos
6
t)
eariv;
Yldvv elirelv.
y
,
"Wi StJ, <f>dvai tov TiCOKpdrr), dvofioXoyrjcrcopieOa

ra eiprjiieva. aAAo
eoTiv tl
Epcos npcoTov p,ev
6
tivcov, eneiTa tovtcov cov dv evSeia vapfj avTcp
;
Nat, <f>dvai.
'Em tovtois dva/jLvqadrjTL tivcov
817
201 ecf>r)oOa ev
tco X6yu> elvai tov "EpaiTa- et oe jSoi/Aet, iyco oe
dvap,vr]aco olfxai ydp ae ovrcooi ttcos ehreiv, 6V1
.
tols Beols KaTeaKevdady] Ta npdyfiaTa St' epcora

KaXcov alo~xpcov ydp ovk eir] epcos. ov\ ovtcoltI
ttcos eXeyes;
Et770v ydp, <f>dvai tovAyddcova.
'
Kai eralpe, rov

c3
emeiKcos ye Xeyeis, <f>avai

tovto ovtcos exe' aAAo ti
el
TicoKpdrrj- /cat
o
ov; 'Qfio-
8'
"Epcos KaXXovs dv ei'77 epcos, atcrxpvs

Adyet.
Ovkovv cbfjioXoyrjTai, 08 ivBerjs eoTi /cat p-q exei,
B
tovtov epav;
xal del Bury ixoi mss.
1
ko.1
:
170
SYMPOSIUM
merely saying / wish things now present to be

these
present also in the future. Would he not admit our
"
point ? To this Agathon assented.
" "
And so," continued Socrates, a man may be i
said to love a thing not yet provided or possessed,

when he would have the presence of certain things
secured to him for ever in the future."
"
Certainly," he said.
"
Then such a person, and in general all who feel
desire, feel it for what is not provided or present ;
for something they have not or are not or lack ;
and that sort of thing is the object of desire and
"
love ?
"
Assuredly," he said.
" "
Now then," said Socrates, let us agree to
what we have so far concluded. First, is not Love
directed to certain things ; of which, in the second
"
place, hg has a want ?
"
Yes," he said.
"
Then, granting this, recollect what things you
named in our discussion as the objects of Love :
if you like, I will remind- you. What you said, I
believe, was to the effect that the gods contrived
the world from a love of beautiful things, for of
ugly there was no love. Did you not say something
"
of the sort ?
"
Yes, I did," said Agathon.
"
And quite properly, my friend," said Socrates ;
"
then, such being the case, must not Love be only
"
love of beauty, and not of ugliness ? He assented.
"
Well then, we have agreed that he loves what \
"
he lacks and has not ? I
171
PLATO
New, elireiv.
iiivberjs ap eort /cat ou/c eêt o iipwj koAAo?.
'Avdytcr), tf>dvai.
i oe; to evoees kclAAovs /cat p,r)oap,rj KeKrrj-
jxivov /caAAoj apa Aeyets ot) koXov etvai;
Ov 8rjra.
"Ert ouv o/LtoAoyet? "Epcora KaXov elvtu, el
ravra ovrcos %Xel>
Kat rov 'Ayddcova elrrelv KivSvvevco, a> 2a>-
k pares, ovSev et'SeVai cov rore evnov.
,
C Kat p,r)v KaXcos ye etires, (f>dvcu, co Ayddcov.
aAAa ap,iKpov en et7re- rayaua ov /cat /caAa ooksl
o~oi ewat;
"E/xotye.
Ei
apa d "Epcuy tcov KaAw evSerjs eon, to. 8e
dyadd KaXd, k&v row ayaBtov ivoerjs elrj.
'Eyai, tj>dvai, co UtoKpares, aol ovk dv SwaCfx-qv
dvriXeyeiv, dXX' ovrcos exerco cos cru Xeyeis-
Ov fiev ovv rfj aXrjdeia, tpdvai, to cj>i.Xovp.eve
'
D 'Ayddcov, Swacrat avriXeyeiv, e-nel ILcoKpdrei ye
ovSev yaXeirov.
K.at oe pev ye rjorj eaoto- rov oe Aoyov rov
nepl rov "Kpcoros, ov rtor 7]Kovoa yvvaiKos
Aioripas, ravrd re
r)v
M.avTwiK7Js r) oo<j>r) koX

aAAa 77oAAa, 'Adrjvalois irore dvoapevois irpo
/cat
rov Xoipov SeKa err] dvafioXrjv throir\oe rfjs vooov,
/cat epe ra epcoriKa eoioaêv ov ovv
hi] eKeivr)
rj
eXeye Xoyov, rteipdoopai vp.lv SceXOetv eK rtov

172
SYMPOSIUM
" Yes," he replied. .
"
And what Love lacks and has not is beauty ?
" ^
"
That needs must be," he said.
" Well now, will you say that what lacks beauty, \Z"
and in no wise possesses it, is beautiful ?
"
"
not."
" Surely
So can you still allow Love to be beautiful,
"
if S
this is the case ?
"
Whereupon Agathon said, I greatly fear,
Socrates, I knew nothing of what I was talking
about."
"
Ah, your words were beautiful enough, Agathon ; ,
but pray give me one or two more : you hold, do

"
you not, that good things are beautiful ?
"
"
Ido."
Then if Love lacks beautiful things, and good \
things are beautiful, he must lack good things too." I
"
I see no "means, Socrates, of contradicting you,"
he replied ; let it be as you say."
" No,
it is Truth, my lovable Agathon, whom
you cannot contradict : Socrates you easily may."
The Speech of Socrates

"
And now I
shall let you alone, and proceed with
the discourse upon Love which I heard one day from
a Mantinean woman named Diotima : 1 in this
subject she was skilled, and in many others too ;
for once, by bidding the Athenians offer sacrifices
ten years before the plague, she procured them so
much delay in the advent of the sickness. Well,
I also had my lesson from her in love-matters ; so
now I will try and follow up the points on which
1
These names suggest a connexion respectively with
prophecy and with the favour of Heaven.
173
PLATO
(xifioXoyrjfievojv euoi Kal 'Ayddwvi, air 6s err' ep,-

avrov, ottos av 8vvwp,ai. Set Srj, a 'AydOcov,
E wcmep av Sujyijcra), hieXdelv avrov Trpcbrov, rls
eariv 6 "Epa>5 feat ttoZos tls, eneira ra epya avrov.
SoKet ovv fioi paarov elvai ovrco SieXdelv, a>y nore
p,e $evr) dvaKpivovaa a\e86v yap ri Kal
Stjjei.
-fj
eya) Trpos avrrjv erepa roiavra eXeyov, otanep vvv

npos ep.e AydOcov, <Ls etrj "Epto? p,eyas Oeos,
6
Sij
etrj 8e twv KaXu>v rjXeyxe rovrois rots Xoyois
p,e
olcnrep eyto rovrov, (Its ovre KaXos eh) Kara. rov
ep,6v Xoyov ovre dyados.
Kai eydt, Ylios Xeyeis, AtoTi//,a; ala\p6s
a)
e<f>r]v,
dpa earl Kal KaKos;

"Epa>?
6
Kal Ovk ev<f>rjp.rjoeis olei, ti av

yj,
o
;
e<j>r)-
7)
p,r) KaXov dvayKoiov avro elvai alaxpov;
fj,
202 MaAiora ye.

TH Kai av p,i] ao(j>6v, dp.ades; ovk rjaOrjaat on
rj
ear n p,erav ao<f>Las Kal dp,a8las;

1
Tt rovro;
To opdd oodeiv Kal avev rov e\eiv Xoyov Sov-
vai ovk olod', e<f>r), on ovre enlaraadal eanv
dXoyov yap irpayp.a ttcos av etrj imorqpvr); ovre
dfiaQla' ro yap rov ovros rvy^dvov nuts av elrt
d/j,adla; eon 8e Sr/irov roiovrov opdr) 86a,
r)
p,erav (frpovrjoecos Kal dp,adlas.

rjv
8'
'AXrjdfj, eyco, Xeyeis.

ro'wvv dvdyKaê o p.7) koXov eanv alaxpov
B
M17
174
SYMPOSIUM
Agathon and I have just agreed by narrating to

you all on my own account, as well as I am able,
the speech she delivered to me. So first, Agathon,
I must unfold, in your manner of exposition, who and
what sort of being is Love, and then I shall tell of
his works. The readiest way, I think, will be to
give my description that form of question and
answer which the stranger woman used for hers
that day. For I spoke to her in much the same
terms as Agathon addressed just now to me, saying
Love was a great god, and was of beautiful things ;
and she refuted me with the very arguments I have
brought against our young friend, showing that by
my account that god was neither beautiful nor
good.
" '
How do you mean, Diotima ? said I ; 'is Love
'
J
'
then ugly and bad ? ,
" ' Peace, for shame ! ' she '
or do you'N
replied :
imagine that whatever is not beautiful must needs I
'
be ugly ? I
" '
To be sure I do.'
" '
And what is not skilled, ignorant ? Have you
not observed that there is something halfway
'
between skill and ignorance ?
" ' '
What is that ?
" ' You know, of course, that to have correct Vs
opinion, if you can give no reason for it, is neither \
full knowledge how can an unreasoned thing be I
knowledge ? nor yet ignorance ; for what hits on
the truth cannot be ignorance. So correct opinion,
I take it, is just in that position, between under
standing and ignorance.'
" ' Quite true,' I said.
" '
Then do not compel what is not beautiful to be
175
PLATO
etvai, fir]8e o p,rj ayaOov, ko.kov. ovrco 8e /cat rov

"Epcora ineiSri avros 6p,oXoyeis p.rj etvai ayaOdv
p,r]8e KaXov, p.7]8ev ri uaXXov otov 8eiv avrov ala^pov
/cat KaKov etvai, dXXd ti fxera^v, e</>r], tovtoiv.
Kat fi^v,
fjv
8'
eyco, 6p,oXoyelrai ye irapd -navrcov
fxeyas 9eos etvai.
Tcov ^117 elSorcov, ecfyr), ndvrcov Xeyeis, /cat
t)
tcov elSoTcov;
HiVfinavTcov p.ev ovv.
Kai yeXdaaaa, Kat ttcos dv, TicoKpares,
<3
C
ecf>r),
7)
ofioXoyoiro p.eyas deos etvai Trtypd tovtcov, ol

<f>amv avrov ov8e deov etvat;
Tt've? ovroi;
fjv
8'
eyco.
is fiev, e<p7), av, //.ia o eya>.
Kdya> etirov, Yicos tovto, e^yqv, Xeyeis;
Kat 17, 'PaStai?, e<f>r]. Xeye ydp aoi, ov irdvras
deovs ev8aip.ovas etvai /cat koXovs; roX-
rj
<f>fjS
p,rjaais dv riva p,rj <j>dvai KaXov re Kal ev8aip,ova

decov eivai;
Ma. At" ovk eycoy
',
e<f>rjv.
ov rovs rdyadd /cat ra
817
KvSaiaovas 8e Aeyety
/caAa KeKTTj/Aevovs
;
Yldvv ye.
D
.
'AAAd ufjv "Epcora ye cbp,oX6yrjKas

8t
eVSetai'
rcov dyaOcov Kal koXcuv eiridvp,eiv avrcov rovrcov
cov eVSeij? eariv.
'QfioXoyijKa ydp.
Ylcos dv oSv deos ett] o ye rcov /caAaV /cat ayaOcov
duoipos;
Ov8ap,cos, cos eoiKev.
y
'Opas ovv, e(j)rj, on Kal crv "Epcora ov deov

voait,eis;
176
SYMPOSIUM
'
ugly,' she said, or what is not good to be bad.
Likewise of Love, when you find yourself admitting
that he is not good nor beautiful, do not therefore A
suppose he must be ugly and bad, but something I

betwixt the two.'
And what of the notion,' I asked, ' to which
'
every one agrees, that he is a great god ?
Every one ? People who do not know,' she
' '
rejoined, or those who know also ?
" ' I mean everybody in the world.'
" At this she '
laughed and said, But how, Socrates,
can those agree that he is a great god who say he
'
is no god at all ?
" '
What persons are they ? I asked.
'
" ' You are one,' she

replied, and I am another.'
'
How do you make that out ? I said.

'
'
Easily,' said she ; tell me, do you not say
that all gods are happy and beautiful ? Or will
you dare to deny that any god is beautiful and
'
happy ?
" ' Bless me ! I exclaimed, not I.'
' '
" '
And do you not call those happy who possess
'
good and beautiful things ?
" '
Certainly I do.' >
" ' But
you have admitted that Love, from lack I
of good and beautiful things, desires these very 1
things that he lacks.' '

" ' Yes, I have.'
" ' How then can he be a
god, if he is devoid of |
'
things beautiful and good ?
" '
By no means, it appears.'
" ' '
So you see,' she said, you are a person who
does not consider Love to be a god.'
vol. v n 177
PLATO
Tt ovv dv, e<f>rjv, eiTj 6 "JLpcos; OvrjTOs;

"H/acrd ye.
E *AAAd Tt fir/v ;
"Qcnrep ra Trporepa e<f>r]v, fxerav dvrjTOV Kal
ddavdrov.
Tt ovv, a> Aionîa;
Aalp.cov fieyas, HcoKpaTes' /cat yap nav
u> ro
haip,6viov p,Tav icm deov re /cat dvrjTOV.
TtVa,
8'
eyco, hvvap.iv eôv;
r)v
'Epp,rjvevov Kal SiaTropdp,evov deots rd Trap

dvOpconcov Kal dv8pu)TTOis rd irapd decov, tcov fxev
rd? Serjoeis /cat Ovalas, tcov Se raj imrdêis T
Kal d/notjSd? [tcov pWiojv],1 ev p,ecrcp Se ov dp,<f>OTe-
patv ovp,7rXrjpol, cuare to ndv avTO atiTcp owSeSe-
adai. Sid tovtov Kal p,avTtKr) iraaa XW/Det /cat
r)
tcov lepecov Te^vrj tcov Te rrepi rd? dvaias /cat

r)
203 Tag TeAerdy Kal t6.s encpSas Kal tt)v p,avTeicxv

Traaav /cat yorjTelav. deos Se dvOpcoircp ov p,iyvv-
Tai, dAAd Sta tovtov Traoa eaTiv o/xtAi'a /cat
t]
r)
SidAe/cros deols rrpos dvOpconovs </cai npos deovs
dv6pcoTTOis>? /cat eyprjyopooi /cat Ka6ev8ovaf /cat
jiter nepl rd rotaCra d^Tj/s, Se
c5
ao<f>6s Sat/AoVto? c5
dAAo Tt ao<j)6s cov nepl re'^vaj yeupovpylas Tivds

i)
r)
ovtoi
S77
fidvavaos. ot 8ai.p.oves ttoXXoi /cat -nav-

TobaiToL elcnv, els Se tovtcov earl /cat "Epcor.
o
llaTpos oe, r)v o eyco, twos eart /cat p,7]Tpos;

M.aKpoTepov p,ev, e<f>rj, hi/qy-qaao-dai- bp,cos Se croi
B
ipco. oTe yap eyevero 'A^pooirr), elcrricovTO ol

r)
Beoi, ol Te dAAoi /cat o ttjs M^TtSo? Ktoj Ylopos.

Se olov
or)
eTreiSr) eoenrvrjcrav, TrpocraiTrjaovaa

tup dvaiuv ora. Pollux, seel. Schanz.
1
Wolf.
2
<Kai 7r/)6s 0eoi)s avdpthiroij}
178
SYMPOSIUM
" '
What then,' I asked, can Love be ? A mortal ?
' '
"
"
'
'
Anything but that.'
Well what ?
'
As I previously suggested, between a mortal

j
and an immortal.'
" ' And '
Is
what is that, Diotima ? 7p
I'
" ' '
A great spirit, Socrates : for the whole of the -
'
spiritual 1 is between divine and mortal.'
" '
Possessing what power ? I asked.
'
" '
Interpreting and transporting human things
to the gods and divine things to men ; entreaties
and sacrifices from below, and ordinances and
requitals from above : being midway between, it
makes each to supplement the other, so that the
whole is combined in one. Through it are conveyed
all divination and priestcraft concerning sacrifice
and ritual and incantations, and all soothsaying
and sorcery. God with man does not mingle: >
but the spiritual is the means of all society and

converse of men with gods and of gods with men,
whether waking or asleep. Whosoever has skill in f*
these affairs is a spiritual man ; to have it in other
matters, as in common arts and crafts, is for the
mechanical. Many and multifarious are these
spirits, and one of them is Love.'
" ' From what father and mother '
I
sprung ?
asked.
" ' '
That is rather a long story,' she replied ; but
still, I will tell it you. When Aphrodite was born,
the gods made a great feast, and among the company
was Resource the son of Cunning. And when they
had banqueted there came Poverty abegging, as
Aai/ioces and t6 Scuiibviov represent the mysterious agencies

1
and influences by which the gods communicate with mortals.

179
PLATO
evcoxias ovarjs d0t/ceTo r) YlevLa, /cat rjv rrepl ras

Ovpas. o ovv Tlopos p,edvadels tov veKTapos, olvos
yap ovttw rjv, els tov tov Aid? ktjttov elareXdcbv /?e-
j3aprjp,evos r/SSev. rj ofiv Ylevla ernôvXevovaa Sid
ttjv avrfjs anopiav Troi"qaaadai Ik tov
rraiSlov
C Ylopov, /cara/cAiVeTai re Trap' avrtp /cat eKvrjoe tov
Epcora. Sid Kal Trjs A<f>poSiTrjs aKoXovdos
'
8r)
Kal Qepdrrcov yeyovev "YZpcos, yewrjOels ev toZs
6
eKeivr/s yeveOXlois, Kal dp,a <f>vo-ei epaarrrjs d)v rrepl
to KaXov Kal Trjs A<f>poSlrr]s KaXfjs ovffrjs. are
'
ovv Ylopov Kal YYevlas vlos d>v "Epcos ev roiavTrj
6
TVXYI KaOecrTrjKe. rrpunov p,ev rrevrjs del eoTi, Kal
noXXov Set drraXos T Kal KaXos, otov ol rroXXol
oiovTai, dXXd okXtjpos Kal avxp,r)pos Kal avvrro-
D
BrjTOS Kal doiKos, xalJ-al7TeT*]S <*' <*>v Ka' darpco-

tos, em. dvpais Kal ev oSols tnraldpios Koip,tbp.evos
,
Tr/v Trjs [MrjTpos <f>voriv excov, del evSela owoi/cos.
Kara Se av tov rraTepa emflovXos earn toZs KaXots
/cai tols ayadols, dvSpeZos wv Kal trr/s Kal avv-
tovos, OrjpevTrjs Sewos, del Tivas rrXeKcov p,r)xavds,
/cat </>povqaea>s im8vp,rjTr)s /cat rr6pip,os, <j>iXo-
oo<f>cov Sid rravTos tov filov, Sewos yorjs Kal <f>ap-
paKevs /cat o~o<f>iOTrjs' Kal ovre cbs dddvaTOS rre-
E
(jtVKev ovTe cos dXXd TOTe fj,ev Trjs avrrjs

Ovtjtos,
r)p,epas daXXei Te /cat t,fj, orav evrroprjar), totc Se
drroOvrjcrKei, rrdXiv Se dva^StcoCT/cerat Sta. ttjv tov
rraTpos <f>vmv, to Se nopiZpp.evov del imeKpeZ-
coaTe ovTe drropeZ "Epco? rrore ovre rrXovTeZ, o~o-
<f>lasTe aS /cat dp,adlas ev fiecrcp eartv. exei yap
cSSe. dediv ovSels <j>iXooo$>eZ oiS' em8vp,eZ ao(f>6s
180
SYMPOSIUM
well she might in an hour of good cheer, and hung

about the door. Now Resource, grown tipsy with
nectar for wine as yet there was none went
into the garden of Zeus, and there, overcome with
heaviness, slept. Then Poverty, being of herself \
so resourceless, devised the scheme of having a
child by Resource, and lying down by his side she
conceived Love. Hence it is that Love, from the
beginning has been attendant and minister to
Aphrodite, since he was begotten on the day of her
birth, and is, moreover, by nature a lover bent on
beauty since Aphrodite is beautiful. Now, as the
son of Resource and Poverty, Love is in a peculiar
case. First, he is ever poor, and far from tender or
beautiful as most suppose him : rather is he hard
and parched, shoeless and homeless ; on the bare
ground always he lies with no bedding, and takes his
rest on doorsteps and waysides in the open air ; true
to his mother's nature, he ever dwells with want.
But he takes after his father in scheming tor all
that is beautiful and good ; for he is brave, strenuous
and high-strung, a famous hunter, always weaving
some stratagem ; desirous and competent of wisdom,
throughout life ensuing the truth ; a master of
jugglery, witchcraft, and artful speech. By birth ;
neither immortal nor mortal, in the selfsame day
he is flourishing and alive at the hour when he is
abounding in resource ; at another he is dying,
and then reviving again by force of his father's
nature : yet the resources that he gets will ever be
ebbing away ; so that Love is at no time either
resourceless or wealthy, and furthermore, he stands
midway betwixt wisdom and ignorance. The posi
tion is this : no gods ensue wisdom or desire to be
181
PLATO
204 yeveadai- eon yap- oi58' ei rtj dXXos ao<f>6s, ov

<f>iXoao(j)ei. ov8' aS ol dp,adets <f)i\ocro(f>ovoiv ov8*
imdvfiovot. yeveadar avro yap tovto eon
ao<f>ol
yaXeirov dfiadia, to p,r/ ovra koXov Kayadov p,rj8e
cf>povip,ov SoKelv avro) etvai Ikovov ovkovv emdvpiei
6 p,rj olofxevos ev8erjs etvai o$ dv firj oiijrat hri8eZ-
o9cu.
TtVe? ofiv, (j>-qv eyd>, oo Aiorl/xa, ol <f)iXoao<f>ovv-
res, el firjre ol ao(f>oi psr\Te ol ap,a8ets;
B AijAov, e<f>7], tovto ye 15817 /cat Trai8i, otl ol fieTa^v
tovtcov ap.<j>OTepa>v , <Lv av /cat o "Epa)?. ear/, yap
tGw KaXXiarojv cro<f>la, "Epois
Srj
eorti' epws irepl
S'
ij
to koXov, cooTe avayKaiov "Eptura (piXoaocpov etvai,

(piXocrofov Se ovTa p,eTav etvai oo(f>ov koI dp,adovs.
ain'a avrtp /cat tovtcov yeveais' Trarpos fxev
8
17
ydp oo<f>o ioTi /cat eimopov, fj,rjTpos Se ov ao<pr)s

diropov. oSv tov 8aip,ovos,
<3
/cat p,ev <j>vais
r)
(f>iXe YidiKpaTes, avrrj- ov Se av obrjdrjs Epcora

etvai, davjj,aor6v oi58 eVafles. Se, cbs
C
<hr]6rfs
wv av Xeyeis, to ipa>-
e
e/xot So/cei TeKp.aipop.evri

p,evov "E/saira efvat, ov to eputv. Sta Tavrd aoi,
olp,ai, -ndyKaXos e<f>aivTo "Epa>s. (cat ydp ecrri
6
to epaarov to t<2> ovti koXov /cat afipov /cat TeXeov

/cat piaKapiarov to Se ye epu>v dXXr)v ISeav TOiavrr/v
exov> "av tydt 8irjX9ov.

Kat eyco etnov, Etev 817, to evr}- KaXcHs yap
Xeyeis' toiovtos ojv "Epa>g Tiva ^pet'av eêt rot?
6
dvdpwTTois
;
Tovto p.eTa Tavr', irei

<L
IjWKpaTes,
8r)
D
e<f>r],
182
SYMPOSIUM
made wise ; such they are already ; nor does
anyone else that is wise ensue it. Neither do the \
ignorant ensue wisdom, nor desire to be made wise : \
in this very point is ignorance distressing, when a \
person who is not comely or worthy or intelligent /
is satisfied with himself. The man who does not /
feel himself defective has no desire for that whereof/
he feels no defect.'
Who then, Diotima,' I asked, are the followers
'
of wisdom, if they are neither the wise nor the

'
ignorant ?
Why, a child could tell by this time,' she
'
answered, that they are the intermediate sort,
and amongst these also is Love. For wisdom *>%
has to do with the fairest things, and Love
is a love directed to what is fair ; so that Love
must needs be a friend of wisdom, and, as such,
must be between wise and ignorant. This again
is a result for which he has to thank his origin : for
while he comes of a wise and resourceful father, his
mother is unwise and resourceless. Such, my good
Socrates, is the nature of this spirit. That you
should have formed your other notion of Love is
no surprising accident. You supposed, if I am to
take your own words as evidence, that the beloved
and not the lover was Love. This led you, I fancy,
to hold that Love is all-beautiful. The lovable,
indeed, is the truly beautiful, tender, perfect, and
heaven-blest ; but the lover is of a different type,
in accordance with the account I have given.'
"
Upon this I observed : Very well then, madam,
'
you are right ; but if Love is such ' as you describe

him, of what use is he to mankind ?
" '
That is the next question, Socrates,' she
183
PLATO
eon tolovtos
Srj
pdaop-ai ae oiodâi. p,ev yap
xal ovrw yeyovws rwv KaXcov,
"Epcu?, eon Se
6
(Ls av <f>Tjs. Se ns ij/xa? epoiro- ri rwv KaXtov
el
early "Epws, w TiWKpares re Kai Aiorip,a; <5Se
6
Se oa<f>eorepov epw- ipwv rwv KaXwv ri epa;
6
Kai eyw elrrov on Teveadai avrw.
'AAA' en -nodel, e<jyr], diroKpiois epwrqaiv
rj
roidvhe' ri earai eKeivw w av yevqrai rd KaXd;
Oi5 rravv e<jyqv en e\eiv eyw rrpos ravr-qv ttjv
epwr-qaiv rrpoêipws drroKpivaadai.
'AAA', e<j>T], wairep av ris p,eraâXwv dvrl rov
el
E
rw ayaOw nwddvoiro-
<L
koXov xP^p-evos <f>epe,
HwKpares, epw- ipwv rwv dyadwv ri epa;

S' 6
Teveadai, eyw, avrw.

tfv
Kai ri earai eKeivw w av yevrjrai ray add;

Tout einopwrepov tjv o eyw, eyw anoKpiva-
,
adai, on eiSaip.wv earai.

205 Krijaet yap, e<f>7], ayaOwv oi evBaip,oves evSai-
Kai ovKen Iva ri Se
'
p.oves, rrpoao'eZ epeadai,

jSoJAerai ei>oaip,wv elvai /3ovX6p.evos, dXXd reXos .
6
ooKei eêiv anoKpiais.

r]
'AXrjdrj Xeyeis, enrov eyw.

TavrrjV Se rr/v ftovXrjoiv Kai rov epwra rovrov
norepa koivov olei elvai -ndvrwv dvOpwnwv, Kai
ndvras rdyadd fiovXeodai avrols elvai dei,
ij
ttws Xeyeis;
rjv
Ovrws, eyw' koivcv elvai -ndvrwv.

S'
Ti
Srj
oSv, w HwKpares, ov rrdvras ipav

B
e<f>rj,
184.
SYMPOSIUM
replied,
'
on which I will try
to enlighten you
While Love is of such nature and origin as I have
related, he is also set on beautiful things, as you say.
Now, suppose some one were to ask us : In what
respect is he Love of beautiful things, Socrates and
Diotima ? But let me put the question more
clearly thus : What is the love of the lover of
'
j
beautiful things ?
" '
That may be his,' I replied.
" ' But they answer craves a further query,' she
your
'
said, such as this : What will he have who gets
'
beautiful things ?
" This
question I declared I was quite unable now
to answer offhand.
" ' Well,' she '
proceeded, imagine that the object
is changed, and the inquiry is made about the good
instead of the beautiful. Come, Socrates (I shall
'
say), what is the love of the lover of good things ? ^3
" ' That
they may be his,' I replied.
" ' '
And what will he have who gets good things ?
" ' I can make more shift to answer this,' I said
;
'
he will be happy.'
" ' Yes,' she said, ' the
happy are happy by
acquisition of good things, and we have no more
need to ask for what end a man wishes to be happy,
when such is his wish : the answer seems to be
ultimate.'
" ' true,' I said.
" ' Quite
Now do you suppose this wish or this love to
be common to all mankind, and that every one ,
always wishes to have good things ? Or what do ^>
'
you 'say ?
"
Even so,' I said ; it is common to all.'
'
" '
Well then, Socrates,' she said, ' we do not
185
PLATO
(pap.ev, e'lirep ye TrdvTes twv avTutv epwoi Kal del,

aXXd rwds <f>ap,ev epav, tovs ' ov;
eyoj, Kal avros.
r)v
8'
0ai>/xda>,
'AAAa, fj,rj Qavp.at,* e(f>rj- d(/>eX6vTes yap rov
,
epcoros ti el8os 6vop.dZ,op.ev, to tov oXov eVi-
TiOevres ovofia, epwra, to. ok aAAa aAAot? Kara-
Xpwp.eda 6vop,aotv.
ri;
8'
rjv
Q.arrep eya>.
"Clonep roSe. otad' on irol-qols earl Tt ttoXv'
yap rot e/c tov p,r) ovros els to ov iovti otojovv
f]
alrla iraad Iotl ttoItjois, oiore Kal al vtto irdoats

C
Tat? Teyyais ipyacrlai noirjoeis eloi /cat ot tovtojv

Srjp,iovpyoi. iravres 7rotijTat.
'AXrjdij Xeyeis.
'AAA' op,a>s, otod' on ov KaXovvTai
8'
r\,
v)
7Tot.rjTal dAA' aAAa eôvoiv ov6p,ara, dno Se Trdorjs

rfjs TTOirjcrecos ev to nepl rr/v
fiopiov d(f>opio6ev
fjLOVOLKrjv Kal rd jLterpa rw rov oXov ovop,aTi irpoa-
ayopeverai. ttoItjois yap rovro p,6vov KaXeZrat,
Kal ol exovres tovto to p,6piov rrjs rroirjoeajs
TTOirjTai.
'AArjQfj Xeyeis, e<pr)v.
Ovtoj toIvvv Kal Ttepi rov epcora' ro p,ev Ke<pd-
AatoV eon rraoa tow dyadcov em8vp,la Kal tov
D
"
r)
ev8aip,ovetv, p,ey lotos Te Kal ooXepos epais

6
rravn dAA' ot p.ev dXXr) Tpe-nofievoi TroXXaxfj eV

'
'
auTov, KaTa xpTîaTioyiov Kara <f>iXoyvp.va-

r]
r)
OTlav KaTa <f>iXoao<plav, out' epav KaXovvTai

r)
ovt' epaoral, ol oe KaTa ev ti elSos lovTes re Kal

186
SYMPOSIUM
mean that all men love, when we say that all men
love the same things always ; we "
mean that some
not, '
people love. and others do 11 >
" '
I am wondering myself,' I replied. '
But you should not wonder,' she said ; for we
have singled out a certain form of love, and applying
thereto the name of the whole, we call it love ;
and there are other names that we commonly abuse.'
" ' As, '
I asked.
for example ?
" ' Take the
following : you know that poetry 1 is
more than a single thing. For of anything whatever
that passes from not being into being the whole
cause is composing or poetry ; so that the productions
of all arts are kinds of poetry, and their craftsmen
are all poets.'
" '
That is true.'
" ' But still, as '
you are aware,' said she, they
are not called poets : they have other names, while
a single section disparted from the whole of poetry
merely the business of music and metres is entitled
with the name of the whole. This and no more is
called poetry ; those only who possess this branch
of the art are poets.'
" ' true,' I said.
" ' Quite
Well, it is just the same with love. Generic-
ally, indeed, it is all that desire of good things
and of being happy 2 Love most mighty and all-
beguiling. Yet, whereas "those who resort to him
in various other ways in money-making, an
inclination to sports, or philosophy are not de
scribed either as loving or as lovers, all those who
pursue him seriously in one of his several forms
*
Cf. above, 197a.
1
Cf. above, 204 e-205 a.

187
PLATO
ecrTTOvSaKores to tov oXov ovopa lo~)(ovoiv [epcoTa

re]1 Krjv eyed, Xeyeiv.
E Kai Xeyerai pev ye ris, e<f>-q, Xoyos, cos ot av
to rjpicrv eavrcov t,i)Twaiv, ovroi epcooiv 6 8' epios
Xoyos ovd' r)ploeos (prjmv elvai tov epcora ovd
oXov, edv pr) rvyxavr) ye 77011, co eralpe, ayadov
ov- errei aircov ye Kal 7708a? Kai yelpas edeXovaw
drrorepveodai ol avdpcorroi, edv avrols So/07 ra
eavrcov Trovrjpa eivai. ov yap to eavrcov, 01/xa.i,
eKaoToi doTrdôvrai, el pr) el ris to pev ayadov
oiKelov KaXeZ /cat eavrov, to Se KaKov dXXorpiov
206 cos ovSev ye dXXo ecrriv ov epcooiv dvdpcorroi rj tov
ayadov' r) ool Sokovoiv;
Ma At" ovk epoiye, rjv 8' eyed.
Ap ovtcos arrAovv eari Aeyeyv, on
rj,
ovv, 7}
o
tov ayadov epcooiv;
ol
dvdpcoTroi
Nat, e<f>7]v.
be; ov -npooVereov, e<pr], ori Kai eivai to
t
ayadov avrois epcooiv;

Wpoodereov .
Ap ovv, <prj, Kai ov povov ewai, aMa Krai aei
elvai;
Kai tovto Trpoodereov.
"EoTtv apa ovXXrjf}8r)v, epcos tov to
6
e<f>rj,
ayadov avrcp elvai del.

'AXrjdeoraTa, e<j>r)v eyed, Xeyeis.
vJTe or] rovrov o epcos eariv act,
rj,
o
B
r)
tcov -Ttva Tporrov Sicokovtcov avro Kal ev TlVl

npdei orrovor) Kai ovvraois epcos av
rj
rj
Ipura re seclusi ipaaral seel. Schanz.

1
Upwra . .
:
tovtov Bast toOto mss.

2
188
SYMPOSIUM
obtain, as loving and as lovers, the name of the / *?
-^ l
whole.'
" '
I fancy
you are right,' I said.
And certainly there runs a story,' she continued,!
'
that all who go seeking their other half1 are in/
love ; though by my account love is neither for
half nor for whole, unless, of course, my dear sir,
this happens to be something good. For men are
prepared to have their own feet and hands cut off
if they feel these belongings to be harmful. The fact
is, I suppose, that each person does not cherish his
belongings except where a man calls the good his
own property and the bad another's ; since what
men love is simply and solely the good. Or is your
'
view otherwise ?
" ' Faith, no,' I said.
Then we may state unreservedly that men love
'
the good ?
" '
Yes,' I
" ' Well now, must
said.
we not extend it to this, that
'
they love the good to be theirs ?
" ' We must.'
" ' And do they love it to be not merely theirs
'
but theirs always ?
" ' Include that also.'
" ' Briefly then,' said she, '
*/*
love loves the good to
be one's own for ever.'
" ' That is the very truth,' I said.
" ' Now if love is
always for this,'
she proceeded,
'
what is the method of those who pursue it, and
what is the behaviour whose eagerness and straining
1
A " prophetic " allusion to Aristophanes' speech,
192 foil.
189
PLATO
KaXolro; rl tovto Tvyxdvei ov to epyov; eêis
elrreiv;
Ov fxevrav ae, e<f>rjv eyd), c5 AtoTi'/Lta, eOav[i,aov
ern oo<j>la /ecu i(f>oiTu>v rrapd ae ai3rd ravra /xaOrjcro-
fievos.
'AAA' eyd) aoi, e<f)7], eput. eari yap tovto tokos
ev koXo) Kal /caret to oxo/xa /cat /caret ttjv ifivxrfv.
MavTelas, r\v ' eyd), Setrat o tL itot Xeyeis, Kal
ov fiavOdvio.
'AAA' eyd), 8' kvovui
rj,
C tf aaxfreorepov epco.
yap, e<f>rj, Sci/cpares', rrdvTes dvdpanroi Kal /card
c5
to awp.a Kal Kara, ttjv ifivxrjv, Kal eVeiSdv ev tivl

TiKTe.iv emdvp.el r\p>v
rjXiKia. yevcjvrai,
rj
<f>vois.
TiKTeiv 8e ev fiev alo~xpa> ov Swarat, ev 8e tw
koXw. yap avopos /cat yvvaiKos owovoia tokos
r)
eoTtV. earn, 8e tovto detov to wpaypa, Kal tovto

ev OvrjTO) ovti tco t,d>a> kvtjois dOdvaTov eveariv,
Kal ev tu> dvapp-oarco dSwaTov r)
8'
yevvrjuis. ret
rj
eari to alcrxpov 7rafrt

8'
yeveodat. dvdp[xoorov
D
6ei<a, to 8e KaXov dpp.6rTov. Motpa ovv /cat

EiAetfluta KaAAovij eart yeveoei. Sid raura
rj
T77
OTav fjuev /caAcp TTpocrrreXd^rj to kvovv, IXecbv re
ylyveTai /cat ev<f>paivop,evov Staêirat /cat Tt'/cret
Te /cat yevvq- otov 8e alaxPcJ>> oKvOpconov re /cat
Au7rot^Ltei'Of arvoneipaTai /cat anoTpeTTeTai /cat
avet'AAerat /cat ou yewa, aXXa ia\ov to Kvrjp.a
kvovvtl /cat
8r)
XaXerrdis (j>epei. odev tu> Te 17877
to
E
07TapyaJvTi noXXr) TTToir/ais yeyove rrepi

77
190
SYMPOSIUM
are to be termed love ? What actually is this effort ?
'
Can you tell me ?
'
Ah, Diotima,' I said ;
'
in that case I
should
hardly be admiring you and your wisdom, and
sitting at your feet to be enlightened on just these
questions.'
Well, I
will tell you,' said she ; ' it is begetting
on a beautiful thing by means of both the body and
the soul.'
" '
It wants some divination to make out what you
mean,' I said ; I do not understand.'
'
'
Let me put it more clearly,' she said. All ,
men are pregnant, Socrates, both in body and in I V
soul : on reaching a certain age our nature yearns
to beget. This it cannot do upon an ugly person,^
but only on the beautiful : the conjunction of man
and woman is a begetting for both.1 It is a divine
affair, this engendering and hringjngjj-" hirth, **-
immortal element in the creature_that, is m.ortal \ t
anoLit_cannnt. orrur_in_tbA^gcojdan_t, The ugly is
discordant with whatever is divine, whereas the
beautiful is accordant. Thus Beauty presides over
birth as Fate and Lady of Travail ; and hence it is
that when the pregnant approaches the beautiful .
it becomes not only gracious but so exhilarate,
that it flows over with begetting and bringing forth ;/
\
though when it meets the ugly it coils itself close
in a sullen dismay : rebuffed and repressed, it
brings not forth, but goes in labour with the burden
of its young. Therefore when a person is big and
teeming-ripe he feels himself in a sore flutter for
the beautiful, because its possessor can relieve him
1
The argument requires the application of " "
begetting
and other such terms indifferently to either sex.
191
PLATO
KaXov Sia to
[xeydXrjs ooSlvos diroXveiv tov eyovTa.
eon yap, ai Sco/cparey, î]> ov tov koXov o epois,
(bs oil otei.
AAAa tI pvf\v;
Tfjs yewqaews Kal tov tokov ev tw KaXw.
f pi > /
E*lev, rjv o eyw.
Ildvv fiev ovv, <f>r). ri ovv ttjs yewqoecos;
81)
otl aeiyeves eoTt Kal dddvaTov cos Ovqtw yev-
tj
207 vqois. adavaoias Se dvayKalov emdvp.ew /iCTa
dyaOov k tcov <hp.oXoyqixevojv einep tov dyadov1
,
eavro) eivai del epcus IotIv. avayKalov K tovtov
Sr)
tov Xoyov Kal ttJs adavaoias tov epojTa etvai.
Taura re ovv irdvTa eSi'Saa/ce fie, oirore Trepl
tGxv epcoTiKiov Xoyovs ttoioito, Kal ttots rjpeTO
Ti olei, at TiWKpaTes, oItlov elvai tovtov tov
epojTOS Kai T7)s em6vp.las; ovk aurdavrj cos
77
Seivws SiaTldeTai irdvTa to. d-qpla, e7rei8av yevvav

emdvpurjorj, Kal to. 7rea Kal to. irrrjvd, vooovvTa
Te nravTa Kal epojTLKws hiaTiOepeva, -npGiTov jxev
B
irepl to ovp,p,iyfjvat aXXr)Xoi,s, e7reiTa Trepl T-qv

Tpo<jrr)v tov yevop.evov, Kal Iroi/ia eoriv vrrep tov-
Totv Kai 8iap,axeor9ai to. aodeveoraTa tois io~xy-
poraTOLS Kal VTrepaTrodvrjoKeiv, Kal aura tu> Ai/xai
7rapaTeivop.eva cuor' eKeiva eKTpe<f>eiv, Kai dXXo
rrdv noiovvTa; tovs /Liev yap dvdpwTrovs, e<f>r],
oioit dv rt? e/c Xoyiap.ov Tavra iroieiv to. he
Orjpla tIs airta ovroos epatriKios SiaTldeodai; eêis
C
Xeyeiv;
at eyoj av eAeyov on ovk eioeirjv o elire,
rj
Aiavofj ovv heivos irore yevf\oeoBai t<x epcoTiKa

eav raura p.r) evvofjs;
Bury rayaffiv mss.
1
070961- d7a0oO,
:
192
SYMPOSIUM
I
of his heavy pangs. For you are wrong, Socrates,

in supposing that love is of the beautiful. *-
" '
" '
What then is it ?
'
j^,
It is of engendering and begetting upon the y^~^~
beautiful.'
" '
"
Be it so,'
'
I said. '
To be sure it is,' she went on ; and how of
engendering ? Because this is something ever-
existent and immortal in our mortal life. From
what has been admitted, we needs must yearn for
\ immortality no less than for good, since love loves ^
good to be one's own for ever. And hence it
necessarily follows that love is of immortality.'
'
\/
" All this instruction did I
get from her at various
times when she discoursed of love-matters ; and
'
one time she asked me, What do you suppose,"^
Socrates, to be the cause of this love and desire ?
For you must have observed the strange state into
which all the animals are thrown, whether going on
, earth or winging the air, when they desire to beget :
they are all sick and amorously disposed, first to
have union one with another, and next to find food
for the new-born ; in whose behalf they are ready
'
to fight hard battles, even the weakest against the
strongest, and to sacrifice their lives ; to be racked
with starvation themselves if they can but nurture
their young, and be put to any sort of shift. As
'
for men,' said she, one might suppose they do
these things on the promptings of reason ; but
what is the cause of this amorous condition in the
' /
animals ? Can you tell me ?
"
Once more I replied that I did not know ; so she
'
proceeded : How do you design ever to become a master
'
of love-matters, if you can form no notion of this ?
; vol v o 193
PLATO
'AAAd 8td ravra toi, <L AtoTt/ia, onep vvv 8r)

elrrov, irapd oe tJkcd, yvovs on StSaCT/cdAaw Se'o/xat.
aAAa fiot. Xeye /cat rovrcov ttjv aiTiav /cat tcov
aXXdiv tcov irepl ra epcoTiKa.
Ei tovvvv, e<j>r), moreveis eKeivov etvai,
<f>vaei
tov epcora, ov iroXXaKis cbp,oXoyr]Kap,ev, p.r) dav-
/xae. evravda yap tov avTov eKelvco Xoyov r)
D BvrjTT] <f>vcris ,r)Tel /card to SwaTO^ del to etvai
dddvaros. Swarat Se ravrrj povov, rfj yeveaet.,
on aet /caraAetTrei erepov veov avTi tov rraXaiov,
irrel /cat ev & ev eKaarov raiv cocov t,r)v /caAeirat
/cat etvai to avTO, olov e/c naiSaplov 6 avTOS Ae-
yerat ecos TrpeapTJrrjs yevryrai,' oStos /xeVroi
dV
oi)Se7TOTe ra aura, e^cov eV avrtp op,a>s 6 avros
/caAetrat, aAAa veos del yt.yv6p.evos, ra. 8e dVoAAus',
E /cat /card rd? TpLâs Kal adpxa Kal dura /cat
i/m /cat avpvnav to o~cop,a. Kal p,r) ot /card to
ocopa, dXXd Kal /card nyy ifwxrjv ol Tpo-noi, rd
rjflr;, Sdat, em.6vp.lai, rjSovai, XCrrai, <f>6ôi,
tovtcov eKaara ovSenoTe ra aura Ttdpeariv e/cdcrra),
dAAd Ta p.ev yiyveTai, rd 8e d7rdAAuTat. 7roAu Se
208 tovtcov aTOTTUiTepov en, oti /cat at eiriarr)p.ai fj,r)
on at ylyvovTai, at 8e aTrdAAuvrat rjp.lv, Kal
p.ev
ovSenoTe ol avToi eap.ev ovhe Kara rd? emoTrjp,as,
aAAa /cat îta eKaoTrj tcov emoTrj p.cov TavTov
7raCTêt. o yap /caAetrat /xeAerdV, a>y
iiovar)s
eort T7j? emcrrr)p,rjs' Xrjdr] yap emarrjpvris eooos,
p.eXeTrj Se irdXiv Kaivrjv ep.rroiovaa dvrl ttjs dir-
194
SYMPOSIUM
Why, it is just for this, I tell you, Diotima as

I stated a moment ago that I have come to see you,
because I noted my need of an instructor. Come,
tell me the cause of these effects as well as of the
others that have relation to love.'
'
Well then,' she said, if you believe that love
is by nature bent on what we have repeatedly
admitted, you may cease to wonder. For here, too, t
on- the same principle as before, the mortal nature\.
x//^
ever seeks, as best it can, to be immortal. In one*'
) way only can it succeed, and that is by genera- \/~ \
tion ; since so it can always leave behind it a new/
creature in place of the old. It is only for a while
that each live thing can be described as alive and
the same, as a man is said to be the same person
from childhood until he is advanced in years : yet
though he is called the same he does not at any
\
/
time possess the same properties ; he is continually
becoming a new person, and there are things also
which he loses, as appears by his hair, his flesh,
his bones, and his blood and body altogether. And
observe that not only in his body but in his soul
besides we find none of his manners or TJaT5its7~his
1
op"mxoTis7~(ieslre5, pleasuresTpaihs or fears, everT"
aMdJngjthjTsalneii^
graw-JBr-himrTvhTlHZQtherejensh. AncThere isayet
stranger fact : with regard to the possessions of
knowledge, not merely do some of them grow and
'
others perish in us, so that neither in what we know

are we ever the same persons ; but a like fate attends
each single sort of knowledge. What we call
conning implies that our knowledge is departing ;
since forgetfulness is an egress of knowledge, while
conning substitutes a fresh one in place of that
;
195
PLATO
iovo-qs aipêi tt)v emoTrjp.rjv, coarre ttjv

[fivrjp.rpr]1
avrrjv SoKetv elvai. tovto) yap ru> Tporrip ttov
to dvrjrov crwêrai, ov ru> rravTarraai to avro aet
B elvai atarrep to detov, dXXa tu> to dmdv /cat 7ra-
Xai.ovp.evov erepov veov eyKaTaXeirreiv olov clvto
fjv. ravrrj rfj p,rjxavfj, d> HwKpares, <f>rj, OvrtTov
dOavaaias fierexei* Kal odp,a Kal raXXa rrdvra-
aSvvaTov3 8e aXXr). fir) ovv 6avp.at,e el to avrov
arrofSXao~rrip,a (pvaei irav Ti/za* ddavaoias yap
XaPLV rravri avrrj r) orrovhr) Kal 6 epcos erreTai..
Kai iych aKovcras rov Xoyov edavp.aad tc /cat
ravra
rjv
C etrrov
8'
iyco, AiOTi/za,
<L
TZlev, aQ<f>a)Tdrrj
S dXr/duis ovtojs ^XeL'
Kai warrep ol reXeoi ao<f>urral, Ev todi, e<f>rj,
rj,
HdiKpares' errel ye Kal tcHv dvdpanriov ideXeis
el
tS
els rr)v <piXoTip,lav fiXeijiai, davp,dt,ois dv rfjs dAo-

yias [rrepi]* a iyd> elprjKa p.r) ewoels, ev8v/j,7)dels
el
cbs Sewuis SiaKeivrai. eparn rov 6vop.aarol yeveadat

" Kal del %p6vov dddvarov (cara-
rov
kX4os els
BeaOai," Kai vrrep rovrov kivSvvovs re KtvSvvevetv
eroip.oi eloi rrdvras eri. p.aXXov vrrep rwv rralSatv,
rj
D Kal %pr)p.aT dvaXioKeiv Kal rrovovs rrovelv ovcr-

rwaaovv Kal VTreparroQvrjoKeiv. errel otei av, e<frj,
'AXicrjOTW vrrep 'A8p.rJT0V dfroOavelv dv, 'AîA-

rj
Xea YlarpoKXa) errarroOavelv, rrpoarrodavelv toj

rj
vfierepov K68pov vrrep Trjs fiaoiXeias rcov rral8cov

seel. Baiter.
1
hi>t)imiv
/xertxti Steph. fier^xew mss.
2
aSuvarov Creuzer adavarov MSS.

3
iripi seel. Ast.

4
196
SYMPOSIUM
which departs, and so preserves our knowledge
enough to make it seem the same. (Every mortal
thing is preserved in this way ; not By keeping it
exactly the same for ever, like the divine, but by
replacing what goes off or is antiquated with some
thing fresh, in the semblance of the original.
Through this device, Socrates, a mortal thing
partakes of immortality, both in its body and in all
other respects ; by no other means can it be done.
So do not wonder if everything naturally values its
own offshoot ; since all are beset by this eagerness
and this love with a view to immortality.'
"
On hearing this argument I wondered, and
'
said : Really, can this in truth be so, most wise
'
Diotima ?
"
Whereat she, like the professors in their glory :
'
Be certain of it, Socrates ; only glance at the
ambition of the men around you, and you will have
to wonder at the unreasonableness of what I have
told you, unless you are careful to consider how
singularly they are affected with the love of winning
"
a name, and laying up fame immortal for all time
to come." x For this, even more than for their
children, they are ready to run all risks, to expend
money, perform any kind of task, and sacrifice
'
their lives. r:Qo you suppose,' she asked, that
Alcestis would have died for Admetus, or Achilles
have sought death on the corpse of Patroclus, or
your own Codrus2 have welcomed it to save the
children of his queen, if they had not expected to
1
Diotima, like Agathon, breaks into verse of her own
composing.
*
A legendary king of Athens who exposed his life
because an oracle had said that the Dorian invaders would
conquer if they did not slay the Athenian king.
197
PLATO
"
dddvarov p,v7]p,r]v dperrjs irepi
"
p,r) olofievovs
eavrcov ecreoOai, rjv vvv f}p.els exop-ev; ttoXXov ye
Set, e<f>r], aXX , oijiai, virep dpeTrjs adavarov /cat
E roiavrrjs 86^tjs evKXeovs irdvres Trdvra ttoiovoiv ,
ocrcp dv dp.eivovs coat,, roaovroj p,dXXov rov yap
aOavdrov epcoaiv, ol pev ovv eyKvpoves, e(f>rj,
Kara acdpara ovres rrpos rds ywaiKas p.6AXov
rperrovrai, /cat ravrrj
epam/cot etai, Sid 7raiSoyovias"
ddavaaiav teal p.vr\p,rp> /cat ev8aip.oviav , cos oiovrat,
"
avrots eis rov erreira xpovov Trdvra nopit.o-
209 uevoi-" ol 8e Kara rr)v etat yap ovv, etprj,
<\>v-)(r\v
ol iv rat? ifwxais kvovoiv en paiXXov r) ev rots
ocbpaoiv, a faxfi npoo~r\Kei Kal Kvrjoai, /fat re/cetv1
rt ofiv TrpoarjKet, ; <f>p6vrjatv re /cat ri)v aXXr]v
aperr/v cZv etat /cat ol rroir\rai iravres yev-
SrJ
vqropes /cat rcov 8r]piovpycov oaoi Xeyovrai evpe-

Tt/cot etvai- ttoXv 8e p,eytarrj, e<f>r), Kal /caAAtcmj
rfjs (frpovrjaeojs -nepl rds rcov TroXecov re /cat
f)
dvopd ecrri
8r)
olKrjoecDV Sta/coa/iâetSj aco<f>po-

f)
re Kal SiKaioavvrj- rovrcov av orav ris e/c

B
oxjvrj
veov eyKvacov rr)v faxW delos cov, /cat rjKovarjs
fj
rr)s ijAt/cta? riKrew re /cat yevvdv rjSrj emdvp,fj,

t,y]rel 8rj, otpai, /cat oSros Trepucov rd koXov iv
w dv yewrjaeiev ev rep yap alaxpvel, .irdvv
Si)
donaCfirai
rd awap<f>6repov, /cat rrpds rovrov rov avdpconov
evdvs einopel Xoycov irepl dperrjs /cat nepi, oiov XP7)
etvat rov avSpa rov dyaddv Kal a em.rr]8evei.v, Kal
C
Hug
1
mc*u> Kvetv MSS.

:
198
SYMPOSIUM
"
win a deathless memory for valour," which now\
we keep ? Of course not. I hold it is for immortal \
distinction and for such illustrious renown as this \
that they all do all they can, and so much the more J
in proportion to their excellence. They are in love -.S
with what,is immortal Now those^vhcfare teeming
in body betake them rather to women, and are
amorous on this wise : by getting children they \
acquire -an immortality, a memorial, and a state of \
bliss, which in their imagining they
"
for all succeed- /
ing time procure." But pregnancy of soul for>r
'
there ..are persons,' she declared, who in their
souls still more than in their bodies conceive those
things which are proper for soul to conceive and
bring forth ; and what are those things ? Prudence,
and virtue in general ; and of these the begetters
are all the poets and those craftsmen who are styled
inventors. Now by far the highest and fairest part
of prudence is that which concerns the regulation
of cities and habitations ; it is called sobriety and
justice. So when a man's soul is so far divine that
it is made~~~pregnant with these frum-his vuuLrn~~an(i
on attaining manhood immediately desires to bring
forth and beget, he too, 1 iinaglne, gOes about
seekrng~""the beautitul "objeoi U hereon he may do
"
his begetting, sirigffjie will TreVer beget upon tKe-

ugly: Hence it is the beautiful rather than the
"Ugly bodies that he welcomes in his pregnancy,
and if he chances also on a soul that is fair and
noble and well-endowed, he gladly cherishes the
two combined in one ; and straightway in address
ing such a person he is resourceful in discoursing
of virtue and of what should be the good man's
character and what his pursuits ; and so he takes
199
PLATO
eTTiêi/oetnaiSeveiv. dnTopevos yap, ot/juu, rov

kclAov /cat SjiiXcbv avrco, a rraXai e/ci/et Tt/CTet /cat
yewa, Kal napchv Kal airdiv /j,efivr]uevos, /cat to
yewrj9ev ovveKTpe<f>ei koivtj fier' eKeivov, u>are
ttoXv /Ltet'â) KOLViovlav rrjs iralhaw Trpos aXX-q-
tu>v
Xovs oi toiovtol io~)(ovoi /cat <f>i\t,av ftefiaioTepav,

are KaAAiovojv /cat ddavarcoreficov -rraihcDV /ce/cot-
vcovrjKores. /cat 775? av .8eaVro eavra> toiovtovs
natSas n&AAov yeyovevai rj tovs avOpcoTTtvovs, Kal
D eu O[irjpov aTrofiAeifjas /cat 'HaloSov /cat tovs
dAAovs TTOirjras roiis dyaOovs ,rjAwv ota e/cyova
eavrwv KaTaAeiTrovcnv, a eKeivois dOdvarov /cAeos
/cat p,vr]p/r]v TtapeyeTai avrd roiavra ovra- el Se
jSoi/Aet, <^ry, otow Au/coupyo? 77at8a? /careAtVeTO
eV Aa/ceSat'/Ltovt oaiTrjpas rijs AaKeSai/AOVos /cat
ais 7709 evneiv rfjs 'EAAaSoy. Tipios Se 7rap
jfyuv /cat SdAcDV Sid tiji' raw vop.cov yevvqaw, /cat
E aAAot dAAodi TToAAaôv avhpes, Kal ev "EAArât
/cat ev fiapfidpoLS, 7roAAd /cat /caAd d.7roîjva/xi'oi
epya, yevvtfoavTes iravTolav dperr}v wv /cat tepd

TToAAd ^'Sr; 8td tou? toiovtovs TralSas,
ye'yove Sta.
Se tou? dvOpwmvovs ovSevos ttoj. ,
Taura fiev ovv rd epwTiKa tera)?, co TicoKpaTes,
210 /cdv ci) fivrjdeirjs' to. Se re'Aea /cat e7ro7TTt/ca,
av eve/ca /cat TavTa eoTiv, eav tis dp8a>s
jxeTirj, ovk otS ei oids t aV etryj. epa) uev
oft/, eîj, eycu /cat npodvplas ovSev diroAelifjoj-
Treipco Se </cat crux1 eireoQai, dv olos ts i??. Set
1
<Kai <ri>> Oxyrh. Pap.
200
SYMPOSIUM
in hand the o^her's_ducajaon. For I hold that
by contact with the fair one and by consorting with
him he bears and brings forth his long-felt conception,
because in presence or absence he remembers his
fair. Equally too with him he shares the nurturing*}
of what is begotten, so that men in this condition )
enjoy a far fuller community with each other than)
that which comes with children, and a far surer ^
friendship, since the children of their union are?
fairer and more deathless. Every one would choosey
to have got children such as these rather than the
human sort merely from turning a glance upon
Homer and Hesiod and all the other good poets,
and envying the fine offspring they leave behind
to procure them a glory immortally renewed in the
'
memory of men. Or only look,' she said, at the
fine children whom Lycurgus1 left behind him in Lace-
daemon to deliver his country and I may almost say
the whole of Greece ; while Solon is highly esteemed
among you for begetting bis laws ; and so are divers
men in divers other regions, whether among the
Greeks or among foreign peoples, for the number of
goodly deeds shown forth in them, the manifold-virtues
they begot. In their name has many a shrine been
reared because of their. fine children; whereas for
the human sort never 'any man obtained this honour.
" ' Into these vlove-matters even
you, Socrates,
might haply be initiated ; but I doubt if you could
approach the rites and revelations to which these,
for the properly instructed, are merely the avenue.
However I will speak of them,' she said, and will
'
not stint my best endeavours ; only you on your

part must try your best to follow. He who would
1
The legendary creator of Spartan laws and customs.
201
PLATO
yap, <pr], tov 6pdu>s lovra em tovto to Ttpdypua.

apxeodai. p,ev veov ovra levai em to, KaXd ad)jiar<x^
kcu 7rpa>Tov p.ev, idv opdcbs rjyfJTai, 6 rjyovfievos ,
evos airov awp.aTos ipdv Kal evravOa yevvav
B Xoyovs koXovs, 7Tira 8e avrov Kwravorjaai,
Ori. TO IKaXXoS TO 7U OTWOVV 0<1>\XO.TI
'
TW 771
eTepcp crobp,a.Ti d8eX<j>6v eori, kcu el Set Sico/ceiv

to 7r KaXov, TroXXrj dvoia p,rj ov% ev tc Kal
etSet
toajtov rjyetddai to em naai Tots
ocbfiacri KaXXos'
tovto 8' ewo-qaavTa KaTacrTrjvai. irdvTCOV rail'
koXcov oo)p.a,T(xiv paoTrp>, evos 8e to o<f>68pa tovto
XaXdaai KaTa<f>povrjoavTa kcu ap,iKpov rjyrjad-
fievov fjieTa. 8e Tavra to ev Tats ifivxats KaXXos
TifjLid>Tepov riyrjoaodai tov ev to ad>p,aTi, uicrre
Kai eav emeiKrjs d)v tt)v ifw)(rfv tls k&v apuKpov
C dvdos *XTI> Kal ipdv Kal Krj8ea6ai
*apKetv avrcb
Kai TiKTew Xoyovs toiovtovs Kal t,t]Tetv olrives
TToi-qaovai. fieXnovs tovs veovs, Iva dvayKaadrj av
dedoaoOai to ev tols emrq8evp,aai, Kal Tots vouois
KaXov Kal tovt ISetv ori nav -avro avra> avyyeves
eoTiv, Iva to irepl to acop.a KaXov op.iKpov ti
qyrjarjTai eivaf /xera 8e ra emT7]8evp.aTa em Tas-
emcrrqfJi.as dyayetv, iva t8rj aS iiriarqiicav KaXXos,
Kal pXe-Trcov Trpos rroXv yj8rj to KaXov pirjKeTL tu>
D 7rap' evi, (Lanep olKeT-qs, dyanajv Traihapiov

KaXXos
q avQpwnov tlvos tj imT7j8evp,aTOS evos, SovXevojv
<f>avXos fj Kal apiiKpoXoyos, dXX' em to ttoXv
neXayos TeTpap,p,evos tov KaXov Kal decopdiv ttoX-
Xovs Kal koXovs Xoyovs Kal p.eyaXoTrpoTrets tiktt)
202
SYMPOSIUM
proceed rightly in thisj business must not merely

begin from his youth to encounter beautiful bodies.
In the first place, indeed, if his conductor guides
him aright, he must be 'n love with one particular
body, and engender beautiful converse therein
;__
but next he must remark how the beauty attached
to this or that body cognate to that which
is
is
attached to any other; and that if he means to
ensue beauty in form, it
|
gross folly not to regard
is
as one and the same the beauty belonging to all
;
and so, having grasped this truth, he must make
himself a lover of all beautiful bodies, and slacken
.
the stress of his ffeeling for one by contemning it.,
and counting it a trifle. But his next advance will v.
be to set a higher value on the beauty of souls than
/
on that of the body, so that however little the grace
fI/
that may bloom in any likely soul shall suffice
it
him for loving and caring, and for bringing forth

and soliciting such converse as will tend to the
J
\
betterment of the young and that finally he may be
;
constrained to contemplate the beautiful as appear

ing in our observances and our laws, and to behold
I
all bound together in kinship and so estimate the
it
body's beauty as a slight affair. From observance

y
he should be led on to the branches of knowledge,

I
that there also he may behold a province of beauty,

and by looking thus on beauty in the mass may
escape from the mean, meticulous slavery of a single
instance, where-.he must centre all his care, like a
lackey, upon the beauty of a particular child or
man or single observance and turning rather
;
towards the main ocean of the beautiful may by

contemplation of this bring forth in all their splendour
many fair fruits of discourse and meditation in a
203
PLATO
Kal Siavo-qfiara iv (f>iXoo x^ta d(jid6vcp, ecos av
ivTavOa pcoaOels Kal ad>]0ts KarloWj nva iiri-
orrjp,7]v p,iav TOiavrrjv, fi icrn KaXov rotovSe.
E Treipio 8e p,oi, (f>rj, tov tovv npooexeiv cos olov
re fidXiara.
"0? yap av p-expi evravda irpos to, ipcoriKa
TTaiSaytoyrjOfj, decop,evos i<j>erjs re Kal 6p$cos
ra KaXd, irpos TeXos 17817 lebv tcov ipcoriKcov ii;-
ai<f>vrjs Karoi/teral ri
davp.acrrov ttjv (jjvcriv KaXov,
tovto eKeivo, co TiCOKpares, ofi eveicev Kal ol
S17
epnrpooOev irdvTes ttovoi rjaav, TrpcoTov p,ev del
211 ov Kai ovre yi.yvop.evov ovre dnoXXvpievov, ovTe
avavop,evov ovre (j>0lvov, eirena ov ttj p,ev KaXov,
Tfi aioxpov, ovoe Tore p-ev, rore o ov, ovoe
o
irpos p.ev to KaXov, npos Se to alaxpov, ovh" evda

p.ev KaXov, evda Se alaxpov, cos rial p,ev ov KaXov,
Tial Se alaxpov ovb" aS (fravTaod-qaerat, avrco to
koXov olov TrpoacoTrov n ov8e êipe? oi58e aAAo
ot38ev acopa p,eTexei, ov8e ti? Xoyos ov8e ris
&>v
e-niaT-qpvr), ovSe ttov ov iv erepcp nvl, olov iv aoj

. ev yfj ev ovpavcp ev tco dXXcp, dXXd avTo
B
tj
17
r)
Kaa avro pea avrov aovoeiges aet ov, to. oe aMa

Travra KaXa eKeivov /xereôvra rpoTrov Twd toiov-
tov, oiov yiyvop,evcov re tcov aXXcov Kai cwroA-
Xvp,evcov p.rjSev eKeivo pvrpe ti irXeov priyre eXarrov
orav ns and
S17
ylyveadai p,r)8e Trdaxew p/rfiev.

Tcov8e 81a. to opOcos naiSepaarelv inavicov eKeivo
to KaXov dpx"t]Tai Kadopdv, oxe86v av tl diTToiTo
tov reXovs. tovto yap eon to opdcos eirl Ta
877
epcoTLKa levai v-n dXXov ayeadai, dpxop.evov diro

C
rj
204
SYMPOSIUM
plenteous crop of philosophy ; until with the

strength and increase there acquired he descries
a certain single knowledge connected with a
beauty which has yet to be told. And here, I
'
pray you,' said she, give me the very best of your
attention.
r " ' When a man has been thus far tutored in the \^
lore of love, passing from view to view of beautiful (
things, in the right and regular ascent, suddenly /

he will have revealed to him, as he draws to the close J
of his dealings in love, a wondrous vision, beautiful (
fin its nature ; and this, Socrates, is the final object (
of all those previous toils. First of all, it is ever-
existent and neither comes to be nor perishes,
neither waxes nor wanes ; next, it is not beautiful
in part and in part ugly, nor is it such at such a
time and other at another, nor in one respect
beautiful and in another ugly, nor so affected by
position as to seem beautiful 'to some and ugly to
others. Nor again will our initiate find the beautiful
presented to him in the guise of a face or of hands
or any other portion of the body, nor as a particular
description or piece of knowledge, nor as existing
somewhere in another substance, such as an animal
or the earth or sky or any other thing ; but existing
ever in singularityof form independent by itself
while all the'Tnultitude of beautiful tKmglTparJfake
'
or' it in such wise that, though all of them are coming
to be anJlpefishing, it grows neither greater nor
'
less, and js affected by nothing. 'So when a man by\
the nghtfmethod of boy-loving ascends from these V,
particulars and begins to descry that beauty, he is/
almost able to lay hold of the final secret. Such isr
the right approach or induction to love-matters.
205
PLATO
rcovSe tGsv koXu

eiravievai., oiarrep eTravd~f}a6p,ois xprfffCevov, o.tt6
evos em ovo /ecu airo ovotv em. navra ra KaAa
owp.ara, Kal airo rd)v koXwv acofidrcov em to
KaXa emrr)oevp,ara, Kal dno ru>v imrrjSevp,dratv
em to KaXd p.a6-qp,ara, Kal and ra>v p,adr)fj,drcov
77 eKeivo to p.d6r]p,a reXevrfjaai,1 o eanv ovk
aAAou t) axirov eKelvov rov KaXov p,d0T)p,a, Iva2 yvu>
D avro reXevrdiv o eari KaXgy. evravda rov j8toi,
c5 <f>lXe JjdoKpares, fj M.avrt,viKTj $ev7], elirep
~e<f>fj
irov dXXoOi,, fiiatrov dvdpwiTU), 8ecop,eva) avro to

KaXov. o eav irore 18779, ov Kara xpvolov re Kal
iadrjra Kal roi>s KaXovs iraiSds re Kal veavloKovs
86et aoi elvai, ovs vvv opatv eKTreTrXrjâi, Kal eroi-
/jlos el Kal av Kal dXXoi ttoXXoI, opcovres ra 770.1-
8ikol Kal orvvovres del avrots, el ttcos olov r tfv,
fir/re eodleiv pvfyre mvew, dXXd deaodai p.6vov Kal
E awelvat. rl olop,eda, el rut yevoi.ro
orjra, e<j>7],
avro to KaXov ISeTv elXiKpives, KaOapov, dfiiKrov,

dXXd p,rj dvdirXeiov oapKcbv re dvdpunrlvuiv Kal
Xpojp,draiv Kal dXXrjs ttoXXtjs <f>Xvaplas dvrjrrjs,
dXX' avro ro Oelov KaXov ovvairo p,ovoeiSes Kar-
212 t,8etv; dp' olei, e<f>rj, <f>avXov filov yiyveodai e'/ceiae
fiXenovros dvOpconov Kal eKeivo co Set 9ea>p.evov
Kal avvovros avrut; t) ovk evdvp,fj, e<f>rj, on
evravda avrui p,ova\ov yevr/aerai, optovri t5
oparov ro KaXov, riKreiv ovk ciScoAa dperrjs,
are ovk eloa>Xov ^ e<f>a/rTrbueva>, dXX dXrjdrj,
are rov dXr/dovs e<j)arrropzev(t)- reKovri Se dperrjv
dXrjOfj Kal dpeifiap,evcp VTrdpêi 6eo<f>iXeZ yeveodai,
1
reXeuri)(rat Usener : reKevTriari MSS.
2
Ira Usener : Kal mss.
206
SYMPOSIUM
Beginning from obvious beauties he must for the

sake of that highest beauty be ever climbing aloft, as
on the rungs of a ladder, from one to two, and from
two to all beautiful bodies ; from personal beauty he
proceeds to beautiful observances, from observance
to beautiful learning, and from learning at last to
that particular study which is concerned with the ,
beautiful itself and that alone ; so that in the end f . "y
he comes to know the very essence of beauty.^ In '
that state of life above all others, my dear Socrates,'
'
said the Mantinean woman, a man finds it truly
worth while to live, as he contemplates essential
beautyj This, when once beheld, will outshine your
gold and your vesture, your beautiful boys and
striplings, whose aspect now so astounds you and
makes you and many another, at the sight and con
stant society of your darlings, ready to do without
either food or drink if that were any way possible,
and only gaze upon them and have their company.
But tell me, what would happen if one of you had
the fortune to look upon essential beauty entire,
pure and unalloyed ; not infected with the flesh and
colour of humanity, and ever so much more of mortal
trash ? What if he could behold the divine beauty
itself, in its unique form ? Do you call it a pitiful

life for a man to lead looking that way, observing
that vision by the proper means, and having it
ever with him ? Do but consider,' she said, that
'
f
there only will it befall him, as he sees the I
beautiful through that which makes it visible, to v
breed not illusions but true examples of virtue, 1
since his contact is not with illusion but I
with truth. So when he has begotten a true\Jij
virtue and has reared it up he is destined to win/
. 207
PLATO
1
Kai evnep rep dXXcp dvOptoTrcov ada.va.Tcp Kai
eKeivtp;
B Tavra 817, a) OatSpe re Kai ol dXXoi, e<T} p.ev
Aioripa, rreTreiop.ai 8' eyar TreTrei.ap.evos Se Treipto-
pai Kai touj aAAou? rreideiv, on rovrov rov
Krrjparos rfj dvdpanrela <f>voei avvepybv dpeivio
"E/owtos owe ar ns paouos Xapoi. 816 eycuye
8?)
<ti/x.i xprjvai
rravra avopa rbv "Epurra npav, Kai
avros ripta ra epwriKa Kai 8ia<f>epovra>s acr/cai
Kai rols dXXois TrapaKeXevo pai, Kai vvv re Kai
del iyKcop.idû> rj)v 8vvap.1v Kai dv8peiav rov
"TOiptoros :a.0' ocrov olos T ci/ai. rovrov ovv rov
C
Xoyov, to OaiSpe, ei /Ar jSouAei, to? eyKcopiov els
el
"Epcora vopiaov eiprjadai, Se, o Tt /cat 07777
\alpeis ovopdôjv, rovro 6vop.ae.
EittoVto? 8e ravra rov HwKpdrovs rovs p.ev
inaiveiv, rov n em-
'
8e Apicrro<j}dvrj Xeyeiv
Xeipeiv, on epvqodrj avrov YicoKparrjs
Xeycov 6
nepl rov Xoyov Kai eâi^vr/s rr)v avXiov dvpav
Kpovopevrjv ttoXvv ifioyov TTapaa\eiv d>s Kcopaartov,
Kai avXrjrplSos (f>ojvr)v aKOveiv. rov ovv 'Aya-
dcova, Ylalhes, <f)dvai, ov OKei/jeoOe; Kai edv p,ev
D
ns rtov imrr)8eltov Se pvq, Xeyere

el
K<fXeire'
rj,
on ov rrivop,ev, dXXd dvarravopeda tiStj.

Kai ov rroXv varepov 'AAfa/?ia8ou rr)v <f>Lovr)v
aKOveiv iv rf\ avXfj o<f)68pa pedvovros Kai p.eya
fioaJvros, epcorcovros ottov 'Ayddtov Kai KeXevov-
ros dyeiv Trap' 'Ayddiova. dyeiv ovv avrov rrapa
cr<f>as rrjv re avXrjrplSa VTroXafiovaav Kai dXXovs
Ttvds ru>v aKoXovQcov, Kai imGrfjvai em ras Ovpas
eore(j>ava>pevov avrov Kirrov re nvi o~re(f>dvcp
E
Sao-ei Kai iwv, Kai rawlas expvra em rrjs Ke<f>aXrjs

208
SYMPOSIUM
the friendship of Heaven ; he, above all men, is I
immortaLL^J s#
"
This, Phaedrus and you others, is what Diotima
told me, and I am persuaded of it ; in which
'
j persuasion I pursue my neighbours, to persuade ~\

them in turn that towards this acquisition the best J ~L
helper that our human nature can hope to find is J $?
Love. Wherefore I tell you now that every man^J
should honour Love, as I myself do honour all love-
matters with especial devotion, and exhort all other
I men to do the same ; both now and always do I
glorify Love's power and valour as far as I am able.
:
So I ask you, Phaedrus, to be so good as to consider
this account as a eulogy bestowed on Love, or else
to call it by any name that pleases your fancy."
After Socrates had thus spoken, there was
applause from all the company except Aristophanes,
(
who was beginning to remark on the allusion which
Socrates' speech had made to his own ; x when
> suddenly there was a knocking at the outer door,
which had a noisy sound like that of revellers,
"
and they heard notes of a flute-girl. Go and
"
see to it," said Agathon to the servants ; and if it
be one of our intimates, invite him in : otherwise,
say we are not drinking, but just about to retire."
-" 'A fe>*^moments after, they heard the voice of .
*
Alcibiades/ in the forecourt, very drunken and
ing loud, to know where Agathon was, and
bidding them bring him to Agathon. So he was
brought into the company by the flute-girl and
some others of his people supporting him : he stood
at the door, crowned with a bushy wreath of ivy
and violets, and wearing a great array of ribands
1
See 205 E.
VOL. V P 209
PLATO
navv noXXds, elneZv "AvSpes, xa^PeTe' /X"
kcu
tivovTa dv8pa navv acf>68pa 8eeo6e avfinoT-qv, rj
amcop.ev dvabrjcravTes fiovov 'Ayddcova, i(j>' tunep
rjX9op,ev; eytb yap roi, <j>dvat,, x#es p.ev ovx olos
t eyevop.r)v d(f>u<4a9ai, vvv Se rJKco enl rfj Ke<f>aXfj
eyoyv rds raivlas, Iva and rrjs ep,fjs Ke(j>aXfjs Trjv
rod GO<f>ayraTov Kal KaXXltrrov Ke<f>aXrjv, eav einco1
ovrwal dva8rjo~to. apa KaTayeXdoeade p,ov cos
213 p-edvovros ; eyth Se, Kav v/xeZs yeXdre, o/mcos ev
olS' Sri dXrjdrj Xeyto. dXXd p.01 Xeyere avTodev,
enl prjTOis elcrico rj p.rj; ovp,mecrde r) ov;
Hdvras ovv dva6opvf$r)aat. /cat KeXeveiv elaievai
Kal KaraKXiveodai, Kal tov 'Ayddwva KaXelv avrov.
Kai tov tevai ayop.evov vno tcov dvdpd>nu>v, Kal
nepiatpovfievov dp.a rds rawias cos dvah-qaovra,
enlnpoodev tcov 6<f>6aXp.cov eôvTa ov KariSeZv tov
JjcoKpdrrj, dXXd Kadiêadat napd tov 'AydOcova
B ev p.eacpHcoKpaTOVS re Kal eKeivov napa-)(copr)o-ai
yap tov 'SioJKpdrrj cbs eKeivov KariSeie.2 napaKad-
'
et,6p.evov 8e avrov dondêodai re tov Ayddcova
Kat ava8eZv.
ElneZv ovv tov 'Ayddcova 'YnoXvere, naZSes,
'AA/a/?ia8ijv, "va eK rpircov KaTaKer/Tai.
Ilavw ye, tov 'AXKiîdSrjv dXXd tis tj/juv
elneZv
oSe TpiTOS avp.noTr]s; Kal dp,a p,eTaoTpe<j>6p,evov
avrov opav tov UtoKpaTr), iSovTa Se avanr]8r)o~ai
Kai enrew 12 HpaKAeis, tovtl ti r)v; 2jcoKpaTrjs
1
ito dwa mss. : iveiiroiv Winckelm. : ii.v tlalw Bergk.
KaTtSe(f) Oxyrh. Pap. (cf. 174 v, C>t ISeiv)
2
Kandelv scripsi : :
KaBLfrciv mss.
210
SYMPOSIUM
" "
on his head. Good evening, sirs," he said ; will
you admit to your drinking a fellow very far gone
in liquor, or shall we simply set a wreath on Agathon
which indeed is what we came for and so away ?
I tell you, sir, I was hindered from getting to you
yesterday ; but now I am here with these ribands on
my head, so that I can pull them off mine and twine
them about the head of the cleverest, the hand
somest, if I may speak the see, like this ! x Ah,
you would laugh at me because I am drunk ? Well,
for my part, laugh as you may, I am sure I am speak
ing the truth. Come, tell me straight out, am I
to enter on the terms stated or not f Will you take
"
a cup with me or no ?
At this they all boisterously acclaimed him,
bidding him enter and take a seat, and Agathon
also invited him. So he came along with the assist
ance of his people ; and while unwinding the ribands
for his purpose of wreathing his friend he so held
them before his eyes that he failed to notice Socrates,
and actually took a seat next to Agathon, between
Socrates and him : for Socrates had moved up
when he caught sight of Alcibiades. So there he
sat, and he saluted Agathon and began to twine
his head.
"
Then Agathon said to the servants, Take off
Alcibiades' shoes, so that he can recline here with
us two."
" "
By all means," "said Alcibiades ; but who is
our third at table ? With that he turned about
and saw Socrates, and the same moment leapt up
"
and cried, Save us, what a surprise ! Socrates
His drunken gesture interrupts what he means to say

1
"
and resumes later, If I may speak the truth."
211
PLATO
ovros; ad pe ivravda KareKeiaro, coonep
eXXoxcov
C elcodeis iai<[>vr]S dvaxfratveodai oirov iyw cppr/v
qKiora ae eoeadau. /cai vvv tL 17/ceu; /cai ti a.3
'
ivTavda /care/cAiV^?, /cai1 ov wapa ApioTO<f>dvei ovSe
ei ns aAAoj yeXolos eari re /cat ftovXerai, aAAa.
8iepr]xavqoco Snots Trapa tco /caAAicrra> tcov evhov
/cara/ceicrr?**
Kai tov liicoKpaTT), 'Ayddcov, (fxivai, opa ei p.01
lirapvveis' cos e/xoi 6 tovtov epcos tov dvdpdmov ov
<f>avXov it pay pa yeyovev. air' eKelvov ydp tov
Xpdvov, d<j>' ov tovtov rjpdo6r]v, ovktl eêari p.ot
D oi)Te TTpoo^Xeifiat ovtc SiaAe^flrpai KaXcp ovo' evC,
Tj 0VT0OL ^rjXoTVTTCOV pe K0.1 </>6oVCOV daVpaOTO.
ipydêTcu /cai AoiSopeirai re /cai tco Xe^Pe l^dyis
a77e^Tat. opa odv prj ti /cai vvv epydcrr)Tai, aAAa.
8idXAaov rjpas, r/ edv emxeipfj j8iaeff#ai, tt-
dpwe, cos iycb rqv tovtov pavlav re /cat îA-
epaoTLav irdw oppcooco.
'AAA' ovk eon, <f>dvai tov 'AA/a/JiaSiyv, epol /cat
ool SiaAAay^. aAAa. tovtcov pkv eloavdis oe Tip.co-
prjoopaf vvv oe pot, 'Ayddcov, <j>dvat., ueraSo? tcov
E Tawiujv, Iva dvaSrfoco /cai tt/v tovtov TavT-qvl ttjv
davpaoTTjv Kecf>aX-qv, /cat p-q pot. pep<j>7]Tai on ere
pev dveSrjoa, avrov 8e vi/caVra iv Xoyois irdvTas
dvdpcoTTOVS, oil povov irporqv tooTrep ov, dXX' dei,
enevra ovk dveSrjoa. /cai dp' avrov XafiovTa tcov
Taivicov dvaSetv tov Stu/cpanj /cai /cara/cAiVecrfai .
'E7T6iSt7 Se ehreiv TLtev S^, avSpes'
/care/cAivry,
So/ceiTe ydp poi vrj<f)t.v ovk imTpenTeov vp.iv,
aAAa. ttotov cbpoXoyrjTai, yap Tavd "qplv. ap-
\ovTa oSv alpovpai ttjs irooecos, ecos av vpeis
1
Kal Hermann : ws mss.
212
SYMPOSIUM
here ! So it was to lie in wait for me again that you
were sitting there your old trick of turning up on
a sudden where least I expected you ! Well, what
are you after now ? Tell me, I say, why you took
a seat here and not by Aristophanes or some one
else who is absurd and means to be ? Why did youT
intrigue to get a seat beside the handsomest person J
in the room ?
"
"
Then Socrates said, Agathon, do your best to
protect me, for I have found my love for this fellow
no trifling affair . From the time when I fell in love
-w+fch hhn 1 have not had a moment's liberty either
to look upon or converse with a single handsome
person, but the fellow flies into a spiteful jealousy
which makes him treat me in a monstrous fashion,
girding at me and hardly keeping his hands to himself..
So take care that he does no mischief now : pray
reconcile us ; or if he sets about using force, protect
me, for I shudder with alarm at his amorous frenzy."
" No," "
said Alcibiades ; no reconcilement for you
and me. I will have my revenge on you for this
another time : for the present, Agathon, give me
some of your ribands, that I may also deck this
person's head, this astonishing head. He shall not
reproach me with having made a garland for you
and then, though he conquers every one in discourse
not once in a while, like you the other day, but
always bestowing none upon him." So saying he
took some of the ribands and, after decking the head
of Socrates, resumed his seat.
"
Reclining there, he proceeded : Now then,
gentlemen, you look sober : I cannot allow this ;
you must drink, and fulfil our agreement. So I
appoint as president of this bout,, till you have
213
PLATO
iKav&s rtiryre, ifiavrov. dXXd (jiepeTO), 'Ayddwv,1

et ti eanv eKTTOfia fieya. p.aXXov 8e ovSev Set,
aAAd <f>epe, rtai, <f)dv<u, rov ifiVKrrjpa eKeivov,
214 iSovtcl avrov rrXeov r) oktw KorvXas \cupovvra.
rovrov rrpGnov fiev avrov eKrneiv,
i/ATrXr)crdp,evov
ertei/ra rw Eco/cpaVei KeXeveiv eyêiv koX d/xa
eirreiv Upos fiev HaoKpa.Tr], c5 avopes, ro cro<f>icrfid
fiot, ovoiv orroaov yap av KeXevj] ns, tooovtov
eKmchv oiioev [xaXXov fir] rrore fiedvoOfj.
Tov fiev ovv YioJKpaTr] ey\eavTos rov naioos
rtlveiv rov 8' 'Epvtjlfiaxov ncoj oSv, <j>dvai, tS
'AAKi^StdSry, rroiovfiev; ovrws ovre ti Xeyofiev errl
B Trj kvXiki, ovt irrd8ofiev, dXX' aTexyais cborrep ol
SufiwvTes rnofieda;
Tov ovv 'AXKLfSidS-qv eirreiv *X2 ']pvlfiaxe, fieX-
TioTe jSeArioToii rrarpos Kai oaxfrpoveoraTov, \aipe.
Kai yap av, <f>dvat, tov 'Epv^lfiaxov dAAd rl
rroiGifiev;
"0 ti SdV2 av KeXevrjs. Sei yap aoi rreldeadai-
Irjrpos yap dvr)p ttoXXojv dvrd^tos dXXojv

imTaTTe oSv o ti jSovAei.
"A.Kovaov 8ij, eirreiv tov 'Epv^lfiaxov .
r)fiiv
rrplv ae elaeXdeiv e8oe xpr)vai. errl Seid eKaarrov
iv fiepet, Xoyov rrepl "E/oaJTo? eirreiv coy owavro xrdA-
C Xiotov, Kai eyKWfiidaai. ol fiev ofiv dXXoi rravres
rjfieis elprjKafiev av 8' errei8r) ovk elprjKag Kai
eKirerrooKas, St/catos ei eirreiv, eirrchv 8' emrdâi
T>u)KpaTei o ti av fiovXr], Kai tovtov t<3 errl 8eid
/cai ovto) tovs dXXovs.
1
ipepirui,
'
'AydSuv distinxit Burnet.
2
Sdc Burnet : 5' &v T.
214
SYMPOSIUM
had a reasonable drink myself. Agathon, let the
boy bring me as large a goblet as you have. Ah
"
well, do not trouble," he said ; boy, bring me that

cooler there," for he saw it would hold a good half-
gallon and more. This he got filled to the brim,
and after quaffing it off himself bade them fill up
"
for Socrates, saying, Against Socrates, sirs, my
crafty plan is as nought. However large the bumper
you order him, he will quaff it all off and never get
tipsy with it."
Socrates drank as soon as the boy had filled : but
" "
What procedure is this, Alcibiades ? asked
"
Eryximachus. Are we to have nothing to say
or sing over the cup ? Are we going to drink just
"
like any thirsty folk ?
" Ha,
To this Alcibiades answered : Eryximachus,
' ' "
of noblest, soberest sire most noble son ; all hail !
" And the same to "
but
you," said Eryximachus :
"
what are we to do ?
" Whatever you command, for we are bound to
obey you :
One learned leech is worth the multitude.1
So prescribe what you please."

" Then listen," "
We resolved,
said Eryximachus.
before your arrival, that each in order from left
to right should make the finest speech he could
upon Love, and glorify his name. Now all of us
here have spoken ; so you, since you have made no
speech and have drained the cup, must do your
duty and speak. This done, you shall prescribe
what you like for Socrates, and he for his neighbour
on the right, and so on with the rest."
1
Homer, II. xi. 514.
215
PLATO
'AAAa, <f>dvai, tS 'EpD^-i'/xaê, tov 'AA/ajSidSijj'
koXcos p.ev Xeyeis, fxedvovra Se aVSpa irapa vrj-
/jltj ovk
ef;
cf>6vTcov Xoyovs TrapafiaXXeiv taov
fj.
kcli ap.a, rl
D
rreidei
a)
/jLCLKapie, oe Zco/cparrj? cov
dpri elnev; otada on tovvovtlov eari irav
o
r)
r)
eXeyev; ovtos yap, edv rtva iycb e-naweaco tov-
tov irapovTOS Beov avOpcorrov dXXov rovrov,
rj
rj
r)
ovk dcf>eêTai fiov rcb \elpe.
Ovk evcjyt]p.r]aeis cpdvat tov TitoKpdrT).
;
Md tov HocreiSco, elrreZv tov 'A\Kif$idor)v p,rjoev
'
,
Xeye irpos Tavra, cos iycb ovh" dv eva dXXov eV-
aiveaaipu aov rrapovTOS.
'AAA' ovrco Ttoiei, cpdvai tov 'Epuî/iaôj', et
jSoJAer YiCOKpaTTj enalveoov.
Ucos Xeyeis; ehreZv tov 'AAKt^StdSijv hoKei
Xprjvcu, co 'Epvl(xaxe emOcopai tco dvSpl Kal
;
Tifj-coprjcrcofjiat. vficov evavrlov;

Ovtos, tov TicoKparq, ri ev vco exLS> ewi
E
cf)dvai
to. yeXoioTepa pie eTraiveaai,1 tL rroirjaeis
rj
;
el
TdXrjdrj epco. dXX' Spa iraplr/s.

'AAAd fievToi, <f>dvai,, ra ye dXrjdrj Traplrjpn /cat
KeXevco Xeyew.
Ovk dv cfrddvoifxi, elirelv tov 'AA/a/?id8ip. Kai
pievToi ovTCoal rrolrjoov. edv ti p,rj dXrjOes Xeyco,
215 p,era^v emXafiov, dv fiovXr), Kai ei77 otl tovto
ipevSo/Acu- eKcbv yap elvai ovSev tfievaop.ai. eav
jxevToi dvapupivqcTKopLevos dXXo dXXodev Xeyco,

p,rjoev Oavfidorjs' ov yap ti
paoiov Trjv or)v aTomav
cob' expvTi evTropcos Kal ecf>erjs KaTapiQp.rjaai.
eTraivtacu Burnet eiraivttrets mss.

1
216
SYMPOSIUM
"
Very good, Eryximachus," said Alcibiades ;
"
but to pit a drunken man against sober tongues
is hardly fair. Besides, my gifted friend, you
are surely not convinced by anything that Socrates
has just told you ? You must know the case is quite
the contrary of what he was saying. It is he who7*l
if I praise any god in his presence or any person j
other than himself, will not keep his hands off me." >>
" Come,
enough of this," said Socrates.
"
On the honour of a gentleman," said Alcibiades,
" it is no use
your protesting, for I could not praise
anyone else in your presence."
'
Well, do that if you like," said Eryximachus ;
"
praise Socrates."
" You " "
mean it ? said Alcibiades ; you think
I had better, Eryximachus ? Am I to set upon
the fellow and have my revenge before you
"
all ?
"
Here," said Socrates "
; what are you about,
to make fun of me with your praises, or
"
what ?
"
I shall speak the truth ; now, will you permit
me?"
"
Ah well, so long as it is the truth, I permit you
and command you to speak."
"
You shall hear it this moment,"said Alcibiades ;
"
but there is something you must do. If I say
anything that is false, have the goodness to take
me up short and say that there I am lying ; for I
will not he if I can help it. Still, you are not to
be surprised if I tell my reminiscences at haphazard ;
it is anything but easy for a man in my condition
to give a fluent and regular enumeration of your
oddities."
217
PLATO
TiWKparr] 8' eycb eiraiveiv, to avhpes, ovrcos

eTn\et,pr\aco , 8i eiKovcov. oStos p-ev ofiv lacos
olrjoeTat, errl to. yeXoioTepa, eorat 8' 17
elKcov
8rj
tov aXrjdovs eveKa, ov tov yeXoiov. <f>r)p,l yap
0p.010Ta.T0v avTov elvai tois oiXrjvols tovtois tois
B
ev tois epp,oyXvcf>etoi,s Ka6r)p,evois, ovs Tivas epyd-

ovTai ol 8rjp.iovpyol crvpiyyas avXovs eôvTas,
fj
ot SiâSe SioixOevTes <j>alvovTai evSodev dydXpuaTa
eôvres detov. Kal cf>rjp.l av eoiKevai avrov Ttp oa-
Tvpcp Ttp Mapcjua. otc p,ev ofiv to ye etoos opLOios
tovtois,
el
co TiWKpares, ovh" aiiTos av1 irov

ap.<j>ioPr)T-qcrat.s' cos oe Kal TaXXa eoiKas, p,eTt\
tovto a.KOV. v^pioTr/s el ov; edv yap p-rj 6p,o-
r/
Xoyfjs, p.dprvpas Trapeop,ai. dXX' ovk avXrjTrjs;

ttoXv ye 6avp,aintoTepos eKeivov. p.ev ye 8C
C
opyavtov eKr/Xei tovs dvOptonovs tjj ano tov aro/xa- 6
tos 8wdp,et, Kal en vvvl os av Ta eKeivov avXfj.

a yap "OXvpnos r/vXei, Mapcrvov Xeyco tov2 8i8a-
avTOs. Ta ovv eKeivov edv re dya96s avXrjTrjs
avXfj edv re avXryrpis, /xdva KaTe)(eadai
<j>avXr]
TToiel Kal SrjXol tovs tcov decov re /ecu TeXeTcov
8eop.evovs 81a. to deia elvai. ov eKeivov tooov-
8'
tov p,6vov 8iatf>epeis, otl dvev opydvcov tfiiXots

Xoyocs Tavrov tovto irouets. r)p,els yovv orav p,ev
tov aAAou aKovwp.ev XeyovTOs Kai navv dyadov
D
p^Topos dXXovs Xoyovs, ov8ev p.eXei cos eiros ehreZv

ov8evi' eireioav he aov tls aKovrj tcov otov Xoyojv
7)
S Baiter mss.
1
8-q
:
tov Badham roirov mss.

2
218
SYMPOSIUM
Alcibiades' praise of Socrates
" The way Ishall take, gentlemen, in my praise
of Socrates, is by similitudes. Probably he will
think I do this for derision ; but I choose my
similitude for the sake of truth, not of ridicule.
For I say he is likest to the Silenus-figures that sit
in the statuaries' shops ; those, I mean, which our
craftsmen make with pipes or flutes in their hands :
when their two halves are pulled open, they are found
to contain images of gods. And I further suggest
that he resembles the satyr Marsyas. Now, as to
your likeness, Socrates, to these in figure, I do not
suppose even you yourself will dispute it ; but I
have next to tell you that you are like them in >*/
every other respect. You are a fleering fellow, eh 8
If you will not confess it, I have witnesses at hand.
Are you not a piper ? Why, yes, and a far more
marvellous one than the satyr. His lips indeed had
power to entrance mankind by means of instru
ments ; a thing still possible to-day for anyone
who can pipe his tunes : for the music of Olympus's
flute belonged, I may tell you, to Marysas his teacher.
So that if anyone, whether a fine flute-player or
paltry flute-girl, can but flute his tunes, they have no
equal for exciting a ravishment, and will indicate
by the divinity that is in them who are apt recipients
of the deities and their sanctifications. You differ
from him in one point only that you produce the
same effect with simple prose unaided by instru
ments. For example, when we hear any other
person quite an excellent orator, perhaps pro
nouncing one of the usual discourses, no one, I
venture to say, cares a jot ; but so soon as we hear
you, or your discourses in the mouth of another,
219
PLATO
dXXov Xeyovros, Kav rrdvv cjjavXos fj 6 Xeycov, eav

re yvvrj dKovr) eav re avr/p eav re p.eipaKiov ,
eKTrenX^yp.evoi eafiev kclI Kare\6p-eda. eyco yovv,
<L dv8pes, el p,r) epeXXov Ko/AiSfj 86ew fieOveiv,
elrrov 6/j.ocras av vp.lv, ola Trerrovda avros vtto
8r)
rcov rovrov Xoycov Kal Trdoxco en Kal wvi. orav
yap aKovco, rroXv p,oi p,ciXXov rwv Kopvfiavncovrcov
E
r)
re KapSia Tirj8a Kal 8aKpva eKêlrai vtto rcov
7]
Xoycov rcov rovrov opco 8e Kal dXXovs Trap-TToXXovs

ra air a rraaôvras . YlepiKXeovs 8e aKOVCOV /ecu
dXXcov dyadcov prjropcov efi p.ev rjyovp,rjv Xeyeiv,

roiovrov
8'
ov8ev erratrxov, ov8' eredopv^-qro p,ov

t/'vx'r) ov8' ryyavaKrei cos dv8paTro8co8cos Sia-
rj
Keip,evov ctAA' vtto rovrovt rod Mapavov -rroXXaKis

216 ovrco 8ieredrjv, coore p.ot, 86ai p.r) fiicorov elvai
S^
e%ovn cos e)(LO. Kal ravra, ^LcoKpares, ovk epels

cos ovk dXrjOfj. Kal en ye vvv ovvoi8' ep,avrco, on
edeXoipn rrapexeiv ra cora, ovk av Kapreprjoaipi,,
el
dXXd ravra av Trdoxoip,i . dvayKaêi yap p,e
.
opioXoyetv, on ttoXXov ev8er)s avros en ep.avrov
guv
ap,eXco, ra
8'
p,ev 'Adrjvaicov rrpdrrco. jSia ovv

coorrep drro rcov ^jeiprjvcov emcr)(op.evos rd cora
oi'ô/xat <f>evycov, Iva p,r) avrov Ka6rjp,evos rrapd

rovrco Karayqpdaco rrerrovda 8e rrpos rovrov
B
p.6vov dvdpcoTTCov, o ovk av ns otoiro ev epol

evelvat,, ro aloxvveoOai ovnvovv eyco Se rovrov
p,6vov aitrxvvopLai. avvoi8a yap ep.avrcp dvri-
Xeyeiv p,ev ov 8vvap.evcp, cos ov Sei rroieiv a ovros
KeXevei., errei8dv 8e drreX9co, r\rrr\p.evcp rr)s np.'ijs
220
SYMPOSIUM
though such person be ever so poor a speaker, and
whether the hearer be a woman or a man or a
youngsterwe are all astounded and entranced.
1
As for myself, gentlemen, were it not that I might
I appear to be absolutely tipsy, I would have affirmed
on oath all the strange eiFects I personally have felt
from his words, and still feel even now. For when I
hear him I am worse than any wild fanatic ; I find
my heart leaping and my tears gushing forth at
the sound of his speech, and I see great numbers of
other people having the same experience. When I
I
listened to Pericles and other skilled orators I
thought them eloquent, but I never felt anything
like this ; my spirit was not left in a tumult and had
not to complain of my being in the condition of a
common slave : whereas the influence of our Marsyas
here has often thrown me into such a state that I
i thought my life not worth living on these terms.
In all this, Socrates, there is nothing that you can
i call untrue. Even now I am still conscious that if I
consented to lend him my ear, I could not resist
him, but would have the same feeling again. > For
he compels me to admit that, sorely deficient as
I am, I neglect myself while I attend to the
affairs of Athens. [So I withhold my ears perforce
as from the Sirens, and make off as fast as I can,
for fear I should go on sitting beside him till old age
J
was upon me. And there is one experience I have (
, in presence of this man alone, such as nobody would
expect in me ; and that is, to be made to feel

ashamed ; he alone can make me feel it. For he
brings home to me that I cannot disown the duty
of doing what he bids me, but that as soon as I
turn from his company I fall a victim to the favours
221
PLATO
rfjs vtto rwv ttoXXoiv. SpaTrerevco ovv avrov Kal

C (fievyoo, Kal orav iSco, aia^wo/xai ra w/jLoXoyrj-
ueva. Kal ttoXXolkis p-ev rjSecos av tSoi/it, avrov
fir/ ovra ev dvOpamois' el 8' aS rovro yevoiro, ev
ot8a on ttoXv p,elt,ov av axBolp/qv, o>o~re ovk eât
O Tl ^p1JCTO)/Xai TOVTU) rw avdpojircp.
Kai vtto p,ev rwv avXrjudrojv /cat eyoj Kal
817
dXXoi ttoXXoi roiavra TreTrovQaow vtto rovBe rov
oarvpov dXXa 8e euov atcovoare ojs Sfioios r
iorlv ols iycb rjnaara avrov Kal rr)v hvvap,iv
ws davaaoiav exel- e" Y^-P io~re on ovSels
vuojv rovrov yiyvcboKer
D
dXXd iyd> SrjXdiocu,

TTiTTp r)pdur]v. Spare yap on TiWKpdrrjs epw-
tik&s Sia/cetTai rwv KaXcov Kal dei rrepl rovrovs
eon Kai eK7reTrXr]Krai., Kal afi dyvoel rravra Kal
ovSev otSev, cos ro a^/ia avrov. rovro ov oiXrj-
vwo'es; o<j>68pa ye. rovro yap ovros ea>8ev
TTepifUfSX-qrai, worrep yeyXvup,evos oiXrjvos' ev-
6
hodev he dvovydels ttootjs oieode yep,ei, to dvopes

ova-rrorai, oaxjypoovvrjs lore on ovr' ei ns koXos
;
eon p,eXei avra> ovSev, aXXd Kara<f>poveZ rooovrov

ooov ovo av eis oirjueir], ovr ei ns rrAovoios, ovr
dXXrjv Ttva np,i)v ex<*>v rwv vtto ttXt)9ovs fMaKapi-
el
t,op.evwv rjyeZrai 8e ndvra ravra rd Krtf(j.ara

ovSevos d$ia Kai r)p,as ovSev elvat,, Aeya> vuZv,
elpwvevop,evos 8e Kal iral^wv rravra rov ySi'ov rrpos
roiis dvOpwrrovs oiareXeZ. orrovhaoavros 8e avrov
ns ewpaKe ra evros
et
Kal dvoix&evros
ovk otSa
ayaûara' aAA eyw tjot] -nor eloov, Kat aoi eoogev
217 ovra) deZa Kal xPvd etvai Kal -ndyKaXa Kal
8avp,aord, wore Trovqreov etvat eufipaxv1 o ri
tfifipaxv Cobet, al. ppax'? mss.
1
4v
:
222
SYMPOSIUM
of the crowd. So I take a runaway's leave of him
and flee away ; when I see him again I think of
those former admissions, and am ashamed. Often
I could wish he had vanished from this world ; yet
again, should this befall, I am sure I should be more
distressed than ever ; so I cannot tell what to do
with the fellow at all.
Such then is the effect that our satyr can work upon
me and many another with his piping ; but let me
tell you how like he is in other respects to the
figures of my comparison, and what a wondrous
power he wields. I assure you, not one of you
knows him ; well, I shall reveal him, now that I have,
begun. Observe how Socrates is amorously inclined \
to handsome persons ; with these he is always \
busy and enraptured. Again, he is utterly stupid Y
and ignorant, as he affects. Is not this like a Silenus ? I
Exactly. It is an outward casing he wears, similarly
to the sculptured Silenus. But if you opened his
inside, you cannot imagine how full he is, good cup-
companions, of sobriety. I tell you, all the beauty
a man may have is nothing to him ; he despises
it more than any of you can believe ; nor does wealth
attract him, nor any sort of honour that is the envied
prize of the crowd. All these possessions he counts
as nothing worth, and all of us as nothing, I assure
you ; he spends his whole life in chaffing and making
game of his fellow-men. Whether anyone else has ,
caught him in a serious moment and opened him,
and seen the images inside, I know not ; but I
saw them one day, and thought them so divine
and golden, so perfectly fair and wondrous, that I
223
PLATO
KeXevoi StoKpctTTj?. rjyov/j,evo? 8e avrov eanov-
8a,Kevai em rfj ep,fj u>pa epfxaiov rjyriadp.rjv etvai
Kai evrv)(7]ixa e\xov davfiaoTov, cosvirdpxov fioi
Xapioap.evip YtOiKpdrei Travr aKovoai ooairep
ovros TjSei- i(f>povovv yap em rfj oipa 0avfj.dari.ov
877
oaov. ravra ovv 8iavot]deis "rrpo tov ovk elaidcbs
,
avev aKoXovdov p,6vos p.er avrov yiyveaOai, Tore
aTroTrefinaiv r6v aKoXovdov fiovos uweyvyvopvqv Sei
B
yap irpos vpas iravra rdX-qdfj elirelv dXXd npoa-

eêre r6v vow, Kal
el
tpev8op,ai, HcoKpares, e-
eXeyxe. avveyvyvopvqv yap, w dvSpes, iiovos fiovcp,
Kal u>/M7]v avTLKa hiaXeêodai avrov fioL arrep dv
epaorrjs Trat.8i.KoZs ev epy]iiia StaAe^cêt'ij, Kal eâi-
pov. rovrcuv ov /LtaAa eylyvero ov8ev, dXX
8
worrep elcddei SiaXeftdels dv /h Kal o-wrjp.epevaas

wêro dmcov. fierd ravra avyyvp.vdt,eadai rrpov-
I
avrov /cat avveyvp,vat,6p.rjv, tus ri ev-

C
KaXovfjL7]V
ravOa irepavGiv. avveyvp,vdt,ero oSv p,oi Kal irpoa-
erraXaie TroXXaKis ov8evos rrapovros- Kal ri 8el
Xeyeiv; ov8ev yap p,oi rrXeov r)v. erreiSi) 8e ov8ap.fj
ravrr/ yjvvrov, e8oe p,ot, imdereov etvai ru> dvSpl
Kara to Kaprepov Kal ovk dvereov, erreiSrjTrep
eyKexeip-qKrj, dXXd lareov r\8v\ ri eon to Trpdy/xa.
avrov irpos to awSenrveZv, d-
817
npoKoXovp.ai
Texyws utorrep epaorrjs mxt,8i,KoZs emfiovXevatv fKai
D
rovro
8'
/xoi oi58e raû vrrr/Kovaev, op.u)s oSv

Xpovti) irreiadrj. eTrei8rj 8e d<f>iKero to Trpcorov,
8evnvt]aas dmevai efiovXero. Kal rore p.ev ala\wo-
fievos d<f)fJKa avrov avdis 8e emfiovXevaas eneiSij
,
e8e8et.TrvriKeiJ.ev,1 SieXeyofir/v rroppco tGjv vvktcov,
Burnet: idedenrv^Kei MSS.

1
iSedenrvJiKetiev
224
SYMPOSIUM
simply had to do as Socrates bade me. And be

lieving he had a serious affection for my youthful
bloom, I supposed I had here a godsend and a rare
stroke of luck, thinking myself free at any time by
gratifying his desires to hear all that our Socrates
knew ; for I was enormously proud of my youthful
charms. So with this design I dismissed the attendant
whom till then I invariably brought to my meetings
with Socrates, and I would go and meet him alone : I
am to tell you the whole truth ; you must all mark
my words, and, Socrates, you shall refute me if I
lie. Yes, gentlemen, I went and met him, and the"
two of us would be alone ; and I thought he would
seize the chance of talking to me as a lover does to
his dear one in private, and I was glad. But nothing of,
the sort occurred at all : he would merely converse with
me in his usual manner, and when he had spent the
day with me he would leave me and go his way. After
that I proposed he should go with me to the trainer's,
and I trained with him, expecting to gain my point
there. So he trained and wrestled with me many aj
time when no one was there. The same story ! 1 1
got no further with the affair. Then, as I made noj
progress that way, I resolved to charge full tilt at
the man, and not to throw up the contest once I
had entered upon it : I felt I must clear up the
situation. Accordingly I invited him to dine with
me, for all the world like a lover scheming to ensnare
his favourite. Even this he was backward to accept ;
however, he was eventually persuaded. The
first time he came, he wanted to leave as soon
as he had dined. On that occasion I was ashamed
and let him go. The second time I devised a scheme :
when we had dined I went on talking with him far
vol. v o 225
PLATO
Kal TTi8r) efiovXeTO amevai, aK7]TTTop.evos oti otf/e

etr], npoarjvdyKaaa avTOV p,eveiv. dveiraveTO ovv
ev rfj eô/xevrj ep.ov kXIvq, ev ij7rep ehenrvei,
koL ovSels ev tu> oi/c^/xart aAAoj KadrjvSev -q
E Mexpt p-ev ofiv Sevpo tov Xoyov KaXdJs av eôt
S17
Kal Trpos ovtivovv Xeyeiv to ivrevdev ovk av
S'
p/fj irpajrov p.ev, to
el
p.ov rjKovaare XeyovTos,
Xeyop.evov, otvos dvev re iraloajv Kal p.era ttoISwv
fjv
aXrjQtfs, e-nena HcoKpdrovs epyov

a<j>avlaai
imeprj<f>avov els enaivov eXBovra ddiKov p,oi <f>alverai.
ert. 8e to tov SrjxOevTos {mo tov eêoj? irddos Kap,e
exel- faoi yap ttov Tiva tovto nadovra ovk

218 edeXeiv Xeyeiv olov rjv irXrjv to is 8e8T)yp.evois, ojs
p,6vois yvwaop,evois re Kal avyyvojoop,evois irav
el
,
eToXp,a Spdv re Kal Xeyeiv vtto rfjs oSvvtjs. eyw
ovv Se8rjyp,evos re vtto dXyeivorepov Kal to dXyeivo-
TaTov <Lv av tij
SrjxOeir)

rr)v KapSiav yap
r)
o ti 8ei airo 6vop.daai irXrjyels re Kal
rj
<fivxi]v
8r]x9els vtto TOiv ev <f>iXoaro<j>ia Xoycuv, ot exovrai
exfovrjs dypicjTepov, veov tftvxrjs p>r) d<f>vovs orav
XdpaiVTat., Kal ttoiovoi Bpav re Kal Xeyeiv otiovv
Kal opdiv av <$>ai8povs, 'Ayddojvas, 'Epvi-
p,dxovs, Havoavias, 'Apioro8rjp,ovs Te Kal 'Apicrro-
B
<f>dvas~ TiatKpdrr) Se avrov tL hei Xeyeiv, Kal 0001

dXXoi; TravTes yap KeKOivoivr/KaTe rfjs </>iXoa6(f>ov
p,avias Te Kal /JaKêia?' 810 rravres aKovaeode'
ovyyvojaeade yap tois re Tore rrpaxdeioi Kal tois
The usual proverb of the truthfulness of wine (olcoj Kal

1
dXijfleio) was sometimes extended to oIkos Kal iraiJes d\7)0eis

" Truthful
are wine and children."
226
SYMPOSIUM
into the night, and when he wanted to go I made
a pretext of the lateness of the hour and constrained
him to stay. So he sought repose on the couch]
next to me, on which he had been sitting at dinner,
i and no one was
sleeping in the room but ourselves.
" Now up to this point my tale could fairly be told
to anybody ; but from here onwards I would not
have continued in your hearing were it not, in the
'first place, that wine, as the saying goes, whether
' ' ' '
you couple children with it or no, is truthful ; x
(and in the second, I consider it dishonest, when I
have started on the praise of Socrates, to hide
his deed of lofty disdain. Besides, I share the
plight of the man who was bitten by the snake :
you know it is related of one in such a plight that he
|
refused to describe his sensations to any but persons
who had been bitten themselves, since they alone
would understand him and stand up for him if he
should give way to wild words and actions in his
agony. Now I have been bitten by a more painful
creature, in the most painful way that one can be
bitten : in my heart, or my soul, or whatever one
is to call it, I am stricken and stung by his philo
sophic discourses, which adhere more fiercely than
any adder when once they lay hold of a young
and not ungifted soul, and force it to do or say
whatever they will ; I have only to look around me,
and. there is a Phaedrus, an Agathon, an Eryxi-
machus, a Pausanias, an Aristodemus, and an \
Aristophanes I need not mention Socrates himself
and all the rest of them ; every one of you has
had his share of philosophic frenzy and transport,
so all of you shall hear. You shall stand up alike
for what then was done and for what now is spoken.
227
PLATO
vvv Xeyofievois' oi 8e olxirai, /cat el ris dXXos earl
pep-qXos re /cat dypoiKos, 7rvXas ixdvv /xeydXas rois
<hon> eTTideaOe.
'EneiSri yap ofiv, a> dvSpes, o re Xv)(yos

aireaprjKei /cat oi Traioes eja> Tjcrav, eboge fxoi
Xpfjvai prjoev noiKiXXeiv irpos airov, dXX' eXev-
Oepcos elnelv a p.01 eSd/cer /cat etitov Kwqaas avrov,
TiCOKpares, KadevSeis;
Ov orjra, ij S' oy.
0ta9a ovv a p.01 SeSo/crat;
Tt p.dXiara, e<j>r].
Hv ifiol doKets, rjv 8' eyw, efxov ipaarrjs agios

yeyovevai fiovos, /cat p,oi (f>alvrj OKveZv fJLvrjcrdfjvai.
irpos fxe- ey<h 8e ovrooai e^cu' ndvv avorjrov rjyovfiai
etvat ool p.r] oi /cat rovro xapiiêaOai /cat et Tt
D dXXo t) rrjs ovoias rijs efirjs Seoto 77 riov <f>lXu>v
rCbv ep,u>v. e/iot p.ev yap ovoev eon ixpea^vrepov
rov s ort fieXnarov efxe yeveadai, rovrov 8e
otfiai p,oi ovXXrfiTTopa ov8eva Kvpuorepov etvai aov.
8rj
eyu) roiovrat av8pi. ttoXv fiaiXXov av p.rj âptd-

p,evos alo-xyvoip.i]v rovs <f>povlp.ovs, â/jtô/xevoy
^
rovs re ttoXXovs /cat d<f>povas.

Kat ovros aKovoas fidXa elpcovtKciis /cat a<f>68pa
eavrov re /cat elwdorojs eXeev\vQ. <f>LXe 'AA/ctjStdSij,
Kiv8weveis ru> ovri oi <f>avXos etvat, eXrtep aXr\dr\
rvyxdvei ovra a Xeyeis -rrepl e/xov, /cat tij ear' ev
E
Jjs
ep.ol Swa/ity, St' av av yevoio djaetVcov dfirj-'

)(avov rot KaXXos opanjs av ev ep.ol /cat rijs rrapa
aol eif/,opc/>las TrdfiTroXv
877
el
8ia<f>epov. Kadopwv
airo KowdiaaoOaL re p.01 emxeipeZs /cat aXXdao6ai
KaXXos dvrl KaXXovs, ou/c oXlyw fiov rrXeoveKreZv

8iavofj, dAA' dvrt 86^t]s dXtfdeiav koXwv Krdadat\

228
SYMPOSIUM
But the domestics, and all else profane and clownish,
must clap the heaviest of doors upon their ears.
" Well,
gentlemen, when the lamp had been put
out and the servants had withdrawn, I determined
not to mince matters with him, but to speak out
freely what I intended. So I shook him and said,
' '
Socrates, are you asleep ?
Why, no,' he replied.
Let me tell you what I have decided.'
'
What is the matter ? he asked.
" '
I consider,' I replied, ' that you are the only
worthy lover I have had, and it looks to me as if
you were shy of mentioning it to me. My position
is this : I count it sheer folly not to gratify you in
this as in any other need you may have of either
my property or that of my friends. To me nothing
is more important than the attainment of the highest
possible excellence, and in this aim I believe I can
find no abler ally than you. j So I should feel a far
worse shame before sensible people for not gratifying
such a friend than I should before the senseless
multitude for gratifying him.'
"
When he heard this, he put on that innocent
air which habit has made so characteristic of him,
My dear Alcibiades, I daresay
'
and remarked : j
you are not really a dolt, if what you say of me is
the actual truth, and there is a certain power in me
that could help you to be better ; for then what
a stupendous beauty you must see in me, vastly
superior to your comeliness ! And if on espying
this you are trying for a mutual exchange of beauty
for beauty, it is no slight advantage you are counting
on you are trying to get genuine in return for
reputed beauties, and in fact are designing to fetch
229
PLATO
kcll ovti
" St-
"
219 emxeipets rco xpvoea xa^Keia>v
ap.elj$eodai voets. dXX', co p,aKapie, dfj.ei.vov aKorrei,
jxrj ae Xavddvco oi8ev cov. rj rot rrjs Biavoias
oiJjis apteral 6v fiXerreiv orav r) row op,p.drcov
rrjs aKfj.rjs Xrjyeiv emxelpfj' av 8e rovrcov en
noppco.
i\ayco aKovaas, 1 a p,ev Trap ep.ov, ecprjv, ravr
iarlv, cov oi8ev dXXcos eip-qrai rj cbs 8ta.voovp.cu.' av
8e avros ovrco fiovXevov o ri aoi re dpiarov koli
ep.ol ryyfj.
'AAA', ecfrt), rovro ye eS Xeyeis' ev yap rco emovri
g yjpovtp fiovXevop.evo\. wpdop.ev 8 dv cfraivqrai vcpv
irepi re rovrcov Kal nepl rcov dXXcov dpiarov.
ravra aKovaas re Kal ehrcdv, Kal
8r)
'Eya> p.ev
dcj)els cocrnep fSeXr), rerpcoaOai avrov cppvqv Kai
dvaards ye, ov8e emrpeifias rovrco ehreiv oi>8ev
en, dp,cf>ieoas ro lp,driov ro ep.avrov rovrov Kal

)(ip,cov vtto rov rpificova KaraKXivels rov
r)v
yap
rovrov, rrepifiaXcov rco xe^Pe rovrco ru> 8aip,ovico
C
cos dXr/dcos Kal davp,aaru>, Ka.reKelp.rjv rr)v vvKra

SX-qv. Kal oi8e ravra av, co YicoKpares, epeis on
ifiev8op,ai. iTOirjaavros 8e ravra ep,ov ovros
8r)
roaovrov rrepieyevero re Kal Karecfrpovqae Kai Kar-

eyeXaae rrjs ep.fjs copas Kal vfipiae Kal nepl eKelvo
o1 ye cppvrjv rl etvai, co dv8pes 8iKacrrai- 8iKaoral
yap eare rrjs HiCOKpdrovs imeprj<f>avias. ev yap

tare p,d deovs, p.d Beds, ov8ev rrepirrorepov Kara-
el
SeSapdrjKcbs dvearrpi p,erd HcoKpdrovs, p.era

J)
rj
rtarpos Ka6r)8ov d8eXcf>ov rrpeafivrepov .

r)
To rovro rlva oteade 8idvoiav

8r)
p.erd p.e
Kal irepi ineivo 75 Bury Oxyrh. Pap.

1
<S> irepi eiceivo ye

:
:
Kaiirep eKeivb ye TW Kaiirep Keivo ye B.

:
230
SYMPOSIUM
off the old bargain of gold for bronse.1 But be more
wary, my gifted friend : you may be deceived
and I may be worthless. Remember, the intellectual
'
sight begins to be keen when the visual is entering

on its wane ; but you are a long way yet from that .
time.'
" To this I answered :
'
You have heard what I
had to say ; not a word differed from the feeling
in my mind : it is for you now to consider what you
judge to be best for you and me.'
" Ah, there you speak to some purpose,' he
'
said : for in the days that are to come we shall
consider and do what appears to be best for the
two of us in this and our other affairs.'
" Well, after I had
exchanged these words with him
and, as it were, let fly my shafts, I fancied he felt the
wound : so up I got, and without suffering the man
to say a word more I wrapped my own coat about
him it was winter-time ; drew myself under his
cloak, so ; wound my arms about this truly spiritual
and miraculous creature ; and lay thus all the
night long. Here too, Socrates, you are unable to
give me the he. When I had done all this, he showed
such superiority and contempt, laughing my youthful
charms to scorn, and flouting the very thing on
which I prided myself, gentlemen of the jury for
you are here to try Socrates for his lofty disdain :
you may be sure, by gods and goddesses that
when I arose I had in no more particular sense
slept a night with Socrates than if it had been with
my father or my elder brother.
"
After that, you can imagine what a state of
1Homer, II. vi. 236 Glaucus foolishly exchanging his
golden armour for the bronze armour of Diomedes.
231
PLATO
exeiv, rjyovp.evov p,ev r)rip.dadai, dydfievov Se rr)v
tovtov <f>voiv re Kal aa)(f>poavvrjv Kal dvSpelav,
evrervx^Kora avftpwiria tolovto) ola> eyw ovk
av uipvqv irore evrvxelv els <f>povr)aiv Kal eis
Kaprepiav; ware ovd' ottos ovv 6pyi,oi,p,r)v elxov
Kal aTroareprjdeirjv rrjs rovrov owovalas, ovd' 07777
E Trpooayayoip,rjv avrbv rjvnopovv. ev yap 17877 on
XpT)P>aol re noXv p,SAXov drpwros
rjv
Travraxf)
r)
oior]pa> Alas, u> re (pprjv avrov p.6vw dXwoeodai,
6
8ie7re<f>evyei rynopovv or), KaraSeo'ovXwp.e'vos

p.e.
re vtto rov dv6pd>Trov ojs ovSels vtt ovSevos dXXov
7repifja.ravra re yap p,oi airavra Ttpovyeyovei,
Kal p.erd ravra orpareia r/puv els HorlSatav
eyevero Kowfj Kal avveoirovpev eKel. irpiorov piev
ovv rots ttovois oi fiovov ep.ov Trepifjv, aAAa Kal
rGrv dXXojv aTrdvroJv OTror' dvayKaadelrjpev ano-
ola em arpareias, daireZv,
St)
220 Xrj<f>6evres ttov,

ovSev rjaav ol dXXoi irpos to KaprepeZv ev r aS
raZs evu>xtats p,6vos aTroXaveiv 010s r rjv rd r
aAAa Kal Ttivew ovk edeXa)V, Snore dvayKaoOeirj,
Trdvras eKpdrei, Kal o navratv davp,aarorarov,
TitoKpdrrj fiedvovra ovSels iromore ecopaKev dv0pa>-
ttwv. rovrov p,ev ofiv p.01 SoKeZ /cat avriKa o
eXeyxos eaeadat. irpos Se aS ras rov êi/iaW?
Kapreprjaets oeivol avrodi êi/xtove? 8av-
yap
B
fidaia elpydlero rd re aAAa, Kal rrore ovros Trdyov

olov Seivordrov, Kal jravrcov ovk et.6vra)V
r)
evhodev el ris eloi, re davp,aard

rj,
r)p.(f>ieap.e'vu>v
232
SYMPOSIUM
mind I was in, feeling myself affronted, yet marvelling
at the sobriety and integrity of his nature : for I
had lighted on a man such as I never would have
dreamt of meeting so sensible and so resolute.
Hence I could find neither a reason for being angry
and depriving myself of his society nor a ready
means of enticing him. For I was well aware that
he was far more proof against money on every side
than Ajax against a spear;1 and in what I thought
was my sole means of catching him he had eluded
me. So I was at a loss, and wandered about in
the most abject thraldom to this man that ever
was known. Now all this, you know, had already
happened to me when we later went on a campaign
together to Potidaea ; 2 and there we were messmates.
Well, first of all, he surpassed not me only but every
'
one else in bearing hardships ; whenever we were cut
off in some place and were compelled, as often in
campaigns, to go without food, the rest of us were
nowhere in point of endurance. Then again, when
we had plenty of good cheer, he alone could enjoy it
to the full, and though unwilling to drink, when once
overruled he used to beat us all ; and, most surprising
of all, no man has ever yet seen Socrates drunk.
Of this power I expect we shall have a good test
in a moment. But it was in his endurance of winter
in those parts the winters are awful that I
remember, among his many marvellous feats, how
once there came a frost about as awful as can
be : we all preferred not to stir abroad, or if any
of us did, we wrapped ourselves up with prodigious
1
Referring to the sevenfold shield of Ajax ; cf. Pindar,
. Istk. v. 45 ; Soph. Aj. 576.
J 432 b.c.
\ 233
PLATO
oaa Kai vnohehepêvcov Kai eveiXiyp,ivcov tovs
817
no8as els ttlXovs Kai dpvaKioas, ovtos ev tovtois
8'
erje<. eywv Ifidnov p,ev roiovrov oXovirep Kai 7rp6-
repov elcoOei cf>opeiv, dvvTroSrjTOS 8e Sid rov Kpva-
rdXXov paov eiropeveTO ol aXXoi viroSeSep,evot.. ol
77
Se arpa.TiQna.1 virefiXenov avrov cos KaTa<j>povovvra
o<j>cov.
Kai ravra ravra-
^
S77
p,ev
oiov o av too epe$e Kai tAt) Kttprepos avrjp

e/cei ttot em OTparias,1 dîov aKovatu.
avwo-qaas
yap avroOi. ecodev ti elorrJKei okottcov, Kai 7761817
ov irpovx<*>pe<- avrcp, ovk dvlei dXXd elorqKei Ijjtcov.
Kai 77877 7]v p.eorjp.^pt.a, Kai avdpconoi* jjoddvovTo,
Kai 6avp.dl,ovTes dXXos dXXcp eXeyev on TicoKpaT-qs
ti
i
ecoBwov eoTrjKe. TeXevrcovTes oe

c\>povTit,cov
Tives tcov 'Icbvcov, erreiSr) eoirepa rjv, Senrvrjaravres
Kai yap Bepos Tore
D
r\v yap,evvia eeveyKa-

y
p,evoL dp,a p,ev ev tco f/jvyei Ka8r)v8ov, dp,a 8e

icfyvXarrov avrov Kai tt)v vvKra ear-qôi .
el
ok
6
elaTrjKeL p-eXP1 ecos iyevero Kai 77A10? dveoyev
e-nena coyer dmcov Trpooevdp.evos tco r)Xlcp.
Et he fiovXetrBe ev raZs pcdyais' tovto yap
8t)
Si'/caiov ye avrcp 0,77080 war ore yap p-dyrq fy,
77
Kai Tapiffreta ol crrpaTrjyol,

tfs
eboaav
$
ep,ol
oi58eis dAAoj ep.e eawaev dvBpcoircov ovtos, rerpco-
E
77
p,evov ovk eBeXcov aTToXinelv, aAAa ovvhieacoae Kai

rd oTrXa Kai avrov e'/xe. Kai eyco p.ev,
cS
HcoKpares,
Kai rore eKeXevov 001 SiSoVai rapiarela tovs orpa-
rrjyovs, Kai tovto ye p.01 ovre p,ep.>prj ovre epels
crrpaTias Oxyrh. Pap., Cobet ffTporefas mss.

:
dvffpuTrot Mehler: dvSponroi mss.

2
234
SYMPOSIUM
care, and after putting on our shoes we muffled up
our feet with felt and little fleeces. But he walked
out in that weather, clad in just such a coat as he
was always wont to wear, and he made his way
more easily over the ice unshod than the rest of us
did in our shoes. The soldiers looked askance at
him, thinking that he despised them.
" '
So much for that : but next, the valiant deed
'
our strong-souled hero dared 1 on service there one
day, is well worth hearing. Immersed in some
problem at dawn, he stood in the same spot consider
ing it ; and when he found it a tough one, he would
not give it up but stood there trying. The time
drew on to midday, and the men began to notice
him, and said to one another in wonder : ' Socrates
has been standing there in a study ever since
'
dawn ! The end of it was that in the evening some
of the Ionians after they had supped this time
it was summer brought out their mattresses and
rugs and took their sleep in the cool ; thus they
waited to see if he would go on standing all night
too. He stood till dawn came and the sun rose ;
then walked away, after offering a prayer to the
Sun.
" Then, if
you care to hear of him in battle
for there also he must have his due on the day of
the fight in which I gained my prize for valour from
our commanders, it was he, out of the whole army,
who saved my life : I was wounded, and he would
not forsake me, but helped me to save both my
armour and myself. I lost no time, Socrates, in
urging the generals to award the prize for valour
to you ; and here I think you will neither rebuke
1
Homer, Od. iv. 242.
235
PLATO
on ifievSopar dXXd yap row orparrjyaiv irpos to

ep,6v dlojp,a aTTofSXeTTOVTtov Kal ftovXop,ev(ov ep,ol
SiSoVcu rdpiareia, avros npoOvporepos eyevov raiv
orparity u>v epe Xafielv rj oavrov. en rolvvv, oj
221 dvhpes, diov rp> dedaaadai
Sco/cparij, ore drro
AijAiou <f>vyfj dvex<f>pet. ro arparoTreSov ervyov
ydp rrapayevopevos lttttov eyoiv, oSros Se oVAa.
dve\topei. ovv eoKeSaopevcuv r]8r] ru>v dvOpwrriov
ovros re djxa Kal Adxys' Kal eycb vepLrvyxdvco,
Kal iSaw evdvs rrapaKeXevopLal re avrotv dappetv,
Srj
Kal eXeyov otl ovk aTroXeLi/jo) avrco. ivravOa
Kal KaXXiov ideaadfirjv 2a>Kpar>} ev IloTiSai'a-
rj
avros yap rjrrov ev <f>6fi<x> Sia ro e<f>' lttttov elvac
rj
npuirov pev ocrov rrepLrjv Adxrjros ra> ep<j)pcuv
elvai- eVeira epoiye eSo/cei, 'Apior6(j>aves, ro
<L
B
rovro, Kal oiarrep Kal

8rj
aov e/cet diaTropeveoOai

" Kal
evddSe, fipevOvopevos rd><f>6aXp<h rrapa-
fiaXXtov," rjpepa TrapaaKOTruiv Kal rovs <f>iXlovs Kal
rovs TToXeplovs, SrjXos u>v ttovti Kal Trdvv rrop-
pcoOev, on ei ris dtperai rovrov rod dvSpos, pdXa
eppcopevojs dp.vve.lr at. dirrjei Kal
Sio Kal do<f>aXu>s
ovros Kal eratpos'1 crêSw ydp rt, rtov ovrai
6
hiaKeip.evoiv ev rep rroXepa) oiSe drrrovraL, dXXd

C
rovs TTporpoTrdS-qv (f>evyovras Slcokovol.

HoXXd pev oSv av tls Kal dXXa lôt TiOJKpdrrj
erraiveaai Kal Oavpdcria- dXXd rutv p.ev dXXaiv
emrrjSevpdTCDV rax' av ris Kal rrepl dXXov roiavra
slttol, ro Se pr/Sevl dvdpwTTiov opoiov elvai, pryre
rwv rraXaicov pr/re ra>v vvv ovrcov, rovro dtov
Aristid.
1
treupos tVepos mss.

:
236
SYMPOSIUM
me nor give me the lie. For when the generals,
out of regard for my consequence, were inclined to
award the prize to me, you outdid them in urging that
I should have it rather than you. And further let me
tell you, gentlemen, what a notable figure he made
when the army was retiring in flight from Delium 1 :
I happened to be there on horseback, while he
marched under arms. The troops were in utter
disorder, and he was retreating along with Laches,
when I chanced to come up with them and, as soon
as Isaw them, passed them the word to have no
fear, saying I would not abandon them. Here,
indeed, I had an even finer view of Socrates than
at Potidaea for personally I had less reason for
alarm, as I was mounted ; and I noticed, first, how
far he outdid Laches in collectedness, and next I
felt to use a phrase of yours, Aristophanes how
there he stepped along, as his wont is in our streets,
'
strutting like a proud marsh-goose, with ever a side
long glance,' 2 turning a calm sidelong look on friend
and foe alike, and convincing anyone even from afar
that whoever cares to touch this person will find
he can put up a stout enough defence. The result
was that both he and his comrade got away un
scathed : for, as a rule, people will not lay a finger
on those who show this disposition in war ; it is
men flying in headlong rout that they pursue.
" There are many more quite wonderful things that
one could find to praise in Socrates : but although
there would probably be as much to say about any
other one of his habits, I select his unlikeness
to anybody else, whether in the ancient or in the
1
The Athenians were defeated by the Thebans, 424 b.c. :
cf. Thuc. iv. 76 foil. Aristoph. Clouds, 362.
2
237
PLATO
TTavTOs davfjiaros. otos yap 'AîXXevs iyeuero,
aireiKaoeiev av tls /cat BpaolSav teal aXXovs, /cat
D otos av TlepiKXrjs, Kal Neoropa Kal 'Avrrfvopa,
elal Se Kal erepor Kal roiis aXXovs Kara, ravr' av
tls a7rei/cdor otos Se ovroo~l yeyove ttjv droTriav
avdpconos,1 /cat avros /cat ot Aoyot avrov, oio"
iyyvs av evpoi tls ,r)Tcov, ovre tcov vvv ovre tcov
TraXaicov, et psq apa el ols eyco Xeyco d7ret/cdoi tls
avrov, dvdpconcov p.ev p.T]8evL, rots Se mXrjvoZs Kal
oarvpois, airov /cat tovs Xoyovs.
Kat yap ovv /cat tovto iv tois Trpcurois nap-
IXlttov, on Kal ol Aoyot avrov 6p,OLOTaToi elcri
E Tot? oiXqvols toZs Stoiyo/zeVois. et yap edeXei tls
tcov HcoKpdrovs aKOveLV Xoycov, <f>aveZev av yeXoZoi
to Trpanov TOLavra Kal ovofiara /cat pTj/xara
ecodev TTepLapLTrexovTai, oarvpov StJ2 nva v/3piOTOv
Sopdv. ovovs yap KavdrjXLovs Ae'yet /cat âAiceas
Tuvds Kal okvtot6(jlovs /cat f$vpoo8eijias, Kal -del
Sid tcov avToiv Taind âtVerat XeyeLv, cocrre d-
neipos /cat dvorjTOS dvOpcoTros tt&s av tcov Xoycov
222 /carayeAaaetei'. SiOLyofievovs Se l&cbv av3 tls Kal
evTOS aiiTcov yLyvop,evos Trpcorov p.ev vovv eôvras
evSov p.6vovs evp-qaeL tcov Xoycov, eireLTa deioTarovs
Kal TrXeZoT1 dyaXfiar' dperfjs iv avroZs eôvras
/cat em nXeZoTOV Teivovras, fidXXov Se em irav
oaov TrpoarjKeL aKorreZv rep fieXXovTL /caAa) Kaya8a>
eaeadaL.
Taur' eariv, a>dv8pes, a eyco Sw/cpdny ejratvar
/cat av a. p.ep,(f>ofiaL avpL/jilâs Vfuv ehrov d pie
1
HvSpwiros Sauppe : ivSpuiros mss.
Si) Baiter : T.
2
&v
8
a5 Bekker : fi.i> mss.
238
SYMPOSIUM
modern world, as calling for our greatest wonder.
You may take the character of Achilles and see his
parallel in Brasidas or others ; you may couple
Nestor, Antenor, or others I might mention, with
Pericles ; and in the same order you may liken
most great men ; but with the odd qualities of
this person, both in himself and in his conversation,
you would not come anywhere near finding a com
parison if you searched either among men of our
day or among those of the past, unless perhaps you
borrowed my words and matched him, not with
any human being, but with the Silenuses and satyrs,
in his person and his speech.
" For there is a
point I omitted when I began
how his talk most of all resembles the Silenuses that
are made to open. \[f you chose to listen to Socrates'
discourses you would feel them at first to be quite
ridiculous ; on the outside they are clothed with
such absurd words and phrases all, of course, the gift
of a mocking satyr. His talk is of pack-asses,
smiths, cobblers, and tanners, and he seems always
to be using the same terms for the same things ;
so that anyone inexpert and thoughtless might
laugh his speeches to scorn. But when these are
opened, and you obtain a fresh view of them by
getting inside, first of all you will discover that they
are the only speeches which have any sense in them ;
and secondly, that none are so divine, so rich in
images of virtue, so largely nay, so completely
intent on all things proper for the study of such as
would attain both grace and worth. /
" This,
gentlemen, is the praise I give to Socrates :
at the same time, I have seasoned it with a little
fault-finding, and have told you his rude behaviour
239
PLATO
B vfipioev. koI fievroi ovk epe p.6vov Tavra ire-

noirjKtv, aAAd /cat XapptSijv rov TXavKcovos /cat
TLv6v$r][iov tov Aio/cAeov? Kal dXXovs irdvv ttoX-
Xovs, ovs oStos etjairaTcov cos ipaorrjs 7rat8t/ca
p.<iXXov avros Kadlorarai avr' epaoTov. a
817
/cat
ool Xeyco, at i<nraTacrdai vno tovtov,
'Ayddcov, /X17
dX\' a/no tcov rjp,eTepcov nadr]p,dTcov yvovra evXafij]-
Orjvai, rai p/t] Kara ttjv Trapot,p.Lav coovep vrjmov
TradovTa yvGwai.
Ei7twtos' rafJra rov
817
yeXcoTa
C
'AA/ct^StdSoi;
yeveoOai em rfj Trapprjota avrov, on eSd/cet
en epcoTiKcos ^XIV Tv EaMcparow. rov ofiv
YicoKpdrr), Nrj<f>eiv pot 80/cei?, <f>dvai, co 'AA/ct-
fiidhrj. ov yap dv Trod ovtco Kopupius kvkXco nepi-
j3aXX6p.evos d<f>avlaai eve)(eipei.s ofi eveKa ravTa
iravra etprj/cay Kal, cos ev napepycp
8rj
Xeycov em
reXevTrjs avTO edijKas, cbs ov -ndvra tovtov eveKa
D elpT]Kcbs, tov epe'Ayddcova SiaftaXXeiv, olo-
/cat
p,evos Selv ep.e p,ev oov epdv Kal p,r]8ev6s dXXov,
'Ayddwva 8e vtto oov epaodat. /cat p-rjS' v<f>' evos
dXXov. dXX' ovk eXaOes, aAAa. to oaTvpiKov aov
Spapa tovto /cat oiXrjviKOV KaTdSrjXov eyeveTO.
dXX co <f>lXe 'Ayddcov, p,r)8ev irXeov avrcp yevryrai,
'
,
dAAd TrapaoKevdôv ottcos cpe /cat ok p^Seis

StajSaAet.1
Tov ofiv 'AydOcova einetv, Kat fir/v, Sco/cpares'
E
co
,
Kivovveveis dXrjdr} Xeyew. re/cpat'popat Se /cat cos

KareKXlvr) ev p,eocp ep.ov Te Kal oov, Iva \copls
r/p-ds StaAd/fy. ovSev ovv vXeov avrcp carat, dAA'
eyco irapd ok eXBcov /caTa/cAtvijcropat.
Hirschig Oxyrh. Pap.

1
SiO|8oXe( Sia/SoXei 8iaf1d\r) mss.

:
240
SYMPOSIUM
towards me. However, I am not the only person
I he has treated thus : there are Charmides, son of
Glaucon, Euthydemus, son of Diodes, and any
number of others who have found his way of loving
so deceitful that he might rather be their favourite
than their lover. I tell you this, Agathon, to save
you from his deceit, that by laying our sad experiences
to heart you may be on your guard and escape
t
learning by your own pain, like the loon in the
adage." 1
When Alcibiades had thus spoken, there was
some laughter at his frankness, which showed him
still amorously inclined to Socrates ; who then
remarked : "I believe you are sober, Alcibiades ;
else you would never have enfolded yourself so
charmingly all about, trying to screen from sight
) your object in all this talk, nor would have put it
in as a mere incident at the end. The true object of ]
'
all you have said was to stir up a quarrel between me
j
and Agathon : for you think you must keep me as
your undivided lover, and Agathon as the undivided
object of your love. But now you are detected : your
Satyric or Silenic play-scene is all shown up. Dear
Agathon, do not let the plot succeed, but take
measures to prevent anyone from setting you and
> me at odds."
"
To which Agathon replied : Do you know,
Socrates, I fancy you have hit on the truth. Besides,
I take his sitting down between us two as an obvious
attempt to draw us apart. See, he shall not gain
his point : I will come and sit by your side."
1
Homer, Jl. xvii. 33 pexî" Se re rijjrios fyw, " fools
get their lesson from the deed done."
vol. v r 241
PLATO
Hdvv ye, <f>dvai tov Ticohcpdry), Sevpo vitoiLtio
ifiov KaTatcXivov .
tO 'Lev, elirelv tov 'AA/a/JiaSiji', ola aS irda-^co
viro tov dvdp'anrov. olerai fiov Setv TravTaxfj
nepieZvai. dXX' el pvq ti aAAo, S) 9avfj,doie, ev
\xeotp rj/jicov ea 'AydOatva KaTaKeZadai.
'AAA' dSvvarov, (f>dvai tov TiOJKpaTrj. ov fiev
yap eyu.6 eTrijvecras, oet o e/xe au tov em oegi
eTraiveiv. edv ovv vtto aol KaTaKXivfj 'Ayddojv,
ov Stjttov ep.e rraXiv erraiveoeTai, Trpw vtt ifxov
/xaXXov eTTaived-rjvai; dXX' eaoov, Si Sai/Jiovie, Kal
223 /X17 (jidovqarfs tu> p.eipaKt.u> vtt ejxov enaivedrjvai,'
Kal yap irdw iiridv/juo avrov eyKoipadaai.
Tov lov, <j)dvai tov 'Ayddcova, 'AA/ci/JiaS?},
ovk eau orrcos av evvaoe /xeiyat/u, aMa TravTOS
H&XXov /zeravaoTTjcro/xtu, tva vtto Sai/cparou?
eiraiveBoi).
Taura eKeZva, <f>dvat. tov 'AA/ci^SiaS^v, ra etco-
6oTa' HcuKpaTovs irapovTos twv KaXcov pueTaXaêZv
dSvvarov aAAa>. Kal vvv d>s evTropcos Kal rnOavov
Xoyov evpev, cuore nap eavTCp tovtovi /cara-
KeZoBai.
B Tov p,ev oSv AydOcova <bs /cara/ceicro/x.evov
Trapd tw HwKpaTei dvlerraoOai- etjatyvrjs 8e
Ktop,ao~Ta.s rjKeiv TrafiTroXXovs em Tas dvpas, Kal
emTvxovTas dvecpyfjuevais eiovTOS twos els to
dvTiKpvs iropeveodai irapd a<j)3,s Kal /caTaKrAt-
veodai, Kal dopvfiov fiecrTa navra ecvai, Kal
ovkcti, ev Koafici) ovSevl dvayKaêadai mveiv
Trdp,TToXvv otvov. tov p.ev ofiv 'Epvlp.axov Kal
'
tov OaiSpov Kal dXXovs Tivds e<f>rj 6 ApiaToBrj/xos
C olxeodai dmovTas, e he vttvov XafieZv, Kal Kara-
242
SYMPOSIUM
" "
By all means," said Socrates ; here is a place
for you beyond me."
"
Good God ! said Alcibiades, " here's the fellow
"
at me again. He has set his heart on having the
better of me every way. But at least, you surprising
person, do allow Agathon to sit between us."
" That cannot be," said Socrates : "
you have
praised .me, and so it behoves me to praise my
neighbour on the right.1 Thus if Agathon sits
beyond you, he must surely be praising me again,
before receiving his due praises from me. So let
him be, my good soul, and do not grudge the lad
those praises of mine : for I am most eager to
pronounce his eulogy."
" Ha, ha ! Alcibiades," said "
there can
Agathon ;
be no question of my staying here : I shall jump up
and change at once, if that will make Socrates praise
me.
" "
There you are," said Alcibiades ; just as usual :
when Socrates is present, nobody else has a chance

with the handsome ones. You see how resourceful
he was in devising a plausible reason why our young
friend should sit beside him."
So Agathon was getting up in order to seat himself
by Socrates, when suddenly a great crowd of revellers
arrived at the door, which they found just opened
for some one who was going out. They marched
straight into the party and seated themselves : the
whole place was in an uproar and, losing all order,
they were forced to drink a vast amount of wine.
Then, as Aristodemus related, Eryximachus, Phaedrus,
and some others took their leave and departed ;
1
At 214 c it was only agreed that each should impose
what topic he pleased upon his neighbour.
243
PLATO
bapdelv TTavv noXv, are paKpaiv ru>v vvktcov

ovacov, iêypeodai 8e irpos rjpepav rjSr] dXeicrpvovtov
dhovTiov, eeypop.evos Se tSeiv tovs pev dXXovs
KaOevhovras /cat
olôpevovs, 'AydOwva Se kcu
'
ApioTO<f>dvq /cat TicoKpdrr) en p.6vovs eyprjyopevai
/cat iriveiv e/c <f>idX"i]s peydXr/s em 8eid. tov ovv
"LcoKpdrr] avroZg o'laXeyeodar /cat to pev aAAa o
'ApiaroSrjpos ovk e<f>-q pepvrjadai twv Xoycov
D ovre yap e dpxfjs Trapayeveadat, VTrovvordêiv re-
to pevToi Ke<j>dXaiov, e<f>r], TtpoaavayKaZ,ew tov
StOKparij opoXoyelv avTOVS tov avTov avSpos
etvai Kcop.tpb'iav /cat rpayatSlav eirlaTaodat. Troietv,
/cat tov Teyyri TpayojhioTTOiov ovra </cat>J /ca>/xa>8to-
Tavra
Srj
77010V etvai. dvayKaôpevovs avrovs /cat

ov ocjjoSpa eiropevovs vvaTat,eiv, /cat irpcoTov p,ev
Karahapdelv tov
'
ApiOTO<j)dvr) ijSr) 8e rjpuepas

,
yvyvop.evqs tov 'AydOcova. tov ofiv Sco/cpctTTj,
KaTaKoiptfoavr' eicelvovs, dvacrrdvTa dmevai,
/cat <e>2 oia-nep eireadai, /cat iXdovTa els
elcudei
AvKewv, aTTOviifidpevov, woirep aXXoTe ttjv dXXr)v
fjp,epav SiaTptfieiv, Kal
ovtoj SiarpltfiavTa els ecme-
pav oi'/cot avairaveodai.
Vindob. Hermann.
2
1
<rai> <f>
244
SYMPOSIUM
while he himself fell asleep, and slumbered a great
while, for the nights were long. He awoke towards
dawn, as the cocks were crowing ; and immedi
ately he saw that all the company were either
sleeping or gone, except Agathon, Aristophanes,
and Socrates, who alone remained awake and were
drinking out of a large vessel, from left to right ;
and Socrates was arguing with them. As to most
of the talk, Aristodemus had no recollection, for he
had missed the beginning and was also rather
drowsy ; but the substance of it was, he said, that
Socrates was driving them to the admission that the
same man could have the knowledge required for
writing comedy and tragedy that the fully skilled
tragedian could be a comedian as well. While
they were being driven to this, and were but feebly
following it, they began to nod ; first Aristophanes
dropped into a slumber, and then, as day began to
dawn, Agathon also. When Socrates had seen them
comfortable, he rose and went away, followed in
the usual manner by my friend ; on arriving at the
Lyceum, he washed himself, and then spent the
rest of the day in his ordinary fashion ; and so, when
the day was done, he went home for the evening
and reposed.
245

?
GORGIAS
INTRODUCTION TO THE GORGIAS
The Gorgias marks an important stage in Plato's

thought and art. If we read it, in the probable
sequence of composition, after the Protagoras.
Meno, and Euthydemus, we soon become aware of
a new and lofty impulse animating the whole work,
and stimulating the personal fervour and deter
mination of the writer beneath the proceedings of
his lively drama. The unjust execution of Socrates
in 399 b.c, when Plato was a young man of twenty-
eight, filled him with horror and amazement. He
left Athens for some years ; but although he had
lost all hope of taking any useful part in the govern
ment of his city, and remained sorely convinced of,
the errors of her rulers, it was not till about 387 b.c3
when he founded the Academy, that he definitely ]
cut himself off from the political world. EitherJ
some further misdeed occurred that specially dis
gusted him, or else the decision came, as he rather
implies in his seventh Letter, from his own judgement
on the general trend of affairs in Athens. At any
rate, he produced the Gorgias as his manifesto
towards the time when, at forty years of age, he
embarked on his great experiment in philosophic
education. The design of attracting the attention
of the ordinary man of some culture is evident, first
249
in the choice of the venerable Gorgias famed all
over Greece for his ingenious wit and jingling
eloquence as the figure-head of the piece ; then
in the fierce attack on rhetoric, so flourishing and
influential in forensic and political debate ; and
lastly in the proud renunciation of the pomps and
vanities of the world, and in the passionate insistence
on the claims of truth and right. The Gorgias
achieved its immediate object, for Plato was quickly
surrounded by a band of earnest students : the
effect of the dialogue on a Corinthian farmer is thus
"
described by Themistius (Or. xxiii. 356) he left
forthwith his fields and vines, and committing his
soul to Plato sowed and raised his teacher's doctrines
for crops."
The scheme of the work is simple. In the first
of its three main divisions (447-460) Socrates, ac
companied, as often, by the eager, eccentric Chaere-
phon (cf. Charm. 153 b ; Aristoph. Clouds, 503), is
greeted in the streets by Callicles, who had been
expecting him at his house for a rhetorical display :
this has just been given there by Gorgias, who is
now on his second visit to Athens and about eighty
years of age. However, Socrates and his friend are
taken into the house, where they find both Gorgias
and his ardent disciple Polus among the company ;
and immediately Socrates begins to question Gorgias
on the nature of his profession, in such a way as to
show the need of an accurate definition of it, and
of some satisfactory rule for its proper use. He
points out that the true rhetorician, if he is to train
men (as he professes to do) for public as well as
private life, must himself be just and good. But
Gorgias has agreed that rhetoric may be abused
250
that some rhetoricians may be unjust or wicked
and he admits the inconsistency. Socrates hints
(458 e) that he may not be treating Gorgias fairly ;
but the aged professor is tired after the performance
he has previously given, and it is left to Polus to
enter a vehement protest against this unfair treat
ment of his master, and to give a more controversial
tone to the discussion.
In this second division (461-480, the scene
between Socrates and Polus) we consider rhetoric
on which Polus had published a treatise in its
place among the various arts which provide for i
man's body and soul, viz. cookery, self-adornment, \
medicine and gymnastic for the one, and rhetoric,
sophistry, judicature, and legislation for the other.
Four of these arts two, medicine and gymnastic,
in one sphere, and two, judicature and legislation,
in the other are genuine arts, aiming at our good ;
but the other two pairs cookery and self-adornment,
rhetoric and sophistry are mere flatteries or
cajoleries. This classification of the arts (462-465)
is only dwelt on so far as to show that Polus, at any
rate, has not come near thinking out the basis of
his work in life, and to serve as an easy transition
to the main business of the dialogue. For it leads
at once to the subject of power, as acquired by the
flattering art of persuasion, and to the question of
what we are to regard as true happiness. Is it
absolute liberty to do what one likes, without regard
to what is good ? Socrates applies his favourite
thesis, that nobody wishes to do evil, although many
do evil, thinking it to be for their good ; such people
do not know what is their real ultimate good, or how to
get it. This end of all action is a matter of knowledge
251
but the doctrine " virtue "
is knowledge is not
put forward here. The arrogant young lecturer
thinks to crush Socrates with the instance of
Archelaus, the deeply criminal usurper of the
Macedonian throne : surely everyone would like
. to be in his place ! But Socrates enunciates the
\ famous paradoxes (a) that it is better to suffer than
to do wrong : this he is prepared to maintain though
all the rest of the world be against him ; and (6)
the unjust man is less unhappy if he is punished
% than if he escapes and thrives. As regards (a), Polus
Lthat
makes the fatal admission (474 c) that doing wrong
is more disgraceful than suffering it, for this must
mean that it is also more evil ; and on (6) he has to
agree (477 a) that a just punishment is an honour
able thing, and therefore good. Punishment, he is
told, is a release from evil, though of course it is
better to be just and have no need of it. Rhetoric
may have its use here, in enabling one to accuse
oneself of crime and so to get one's punishment ;
perhaps also, to excuse an enemy whom one wishes
to suffer the disaster of going unpunished for his
wickedness. This refinement of revenge amazes
Callicles (481), the typical Athenian democrat, who
in mind and body follows his instinctive desires,
obeying only the law of nature, and cultivating
literature and philosophy for mere amusement
(484).
With the protest of Callicles we enter upon the
third and most important section of the dialogue
(481-end). Plato's aim is now quite clear to

vindicate his own choice of the philosophic and
educational life in preference to the political career
that lay open to the ablest men of his time. Callicles
252
(like Thrasymachus in the Republic) maintains the ?>

supremacy of force over all things, and concludes by \
urging Socrates to pursue a practical career. |
Socrates thanks him for his outspoken friendliness I
(487 a), and again, after he has driven Callicles to
a fuller and more downright statement of his position,
he compliments him on the freedom with which he
speaks what most men think but will not say (492 d).
Socrates proceeds to show by parable his notion"^
of true happiness, which involves temperance or
self-control ; and he exposes the vile results of an
unbridled, undiscriminating pursuit of pleasure as
opposed to good, from which it must be clearly
*
distinguished (497). Callicles here would retire .
from the argument ; but he is persuaded by Gorgias'.
to continue, and is shown that badness in a man has
nothing to do with his experience of pain, and that
good, not pleasure, is the real end of action (499).
Socrates now repeats his distinction between true
"
arts and flatteries," and among the latter he places
poetry along with rhetoric (502 n). On the analogy
of the arts, the virtue that we seek in the soul, as
in the body, is a certain order or harmony (504).
From this point Callicles cares only to get the
argument finished, and Socrates indulges in longer
speeches for his eloquent exposition of the true rule
of life. Temperance of mind and body is extolled
as the great principle ; for order, truth, and art are
the necessary means to virtue of any kind (506), and
" "
so to happiness (508 cf. the conception of justice
in the Republic). It is unfortunate that the bad
man often has the power, and uses it, to destroy the
good man : but rhetoric is only one of many arts
which may save a man from death, and what we
253
want to know is whether such-and-such a person
ought to be saved (511-512). Callicles is too intent
on popularity to be permanently affected by Socrates'
eloquence on behalf of virtue (513) ; but he is
.1 induced to agree with Socrates that the citizens
yKmust somehow be trained to virtue by persons
<A properly qualified (514). Pericles and other great
Âthenians did nothing of the sort, rather the contrary
(516-519). Callicles again urges Socrates to serve
the state and avoid unpopularity ; Socrates replies
that he is himself about_t]i_QnJvreal politician in
Athens, though hejias_rio_other simpoTtef-btrtrEfiTth
"to protect~hiirn fie telk-a Story of the Judge"iiient
jrf-fehe dead, to show that the philosopher need have
<^ *,no fear of death (523-524). Most men who have
had great power in life fare very ill when life is
done. He ends with an eloquent plea for individual
dissent and aspiration.
Such is the bare outline of the discussion. The
upshot has little to show of strictly reasoned proof,
but the cumulative effect of Socrates' pleading, as
it works its way through playful comparisons and
startling paradoxes to the bitterness and pride,
tempered with regretful sympathy, which give a
strangely noble glow to the conclusion, is deeply
memorable and inspiring. Plato's dramatic art is at
its height : not only are the disputants intensely
alive, but the very statements especially when
recalled, and reconsidered or reinforced seem for
the moment to become active participators in the
" " "
contest ; and the truth," the good," and the
"
just are similarly invested with a certain august
personality. The characters of the three men who
in turn oppose Socrates are ingeniously chosen for the
254
progressive broadening and deepening of the issue

and its interest to the ordinary person. Gorgias,
although some of his pretensions are absurd, is a
man of fine sense and integrity, and he acknowledges
the claims of moral rectitude ; but his outlook is
cramped by professional success. Polus is immature
and headstrong, easily trapped in argument, and
in danger of going astray through thoughtless
vanity rather than any decided inclination. Callicles
is an uncompromising champion of worldly success
and ruthless self-seeking : he represents the solid
mass of opinion which confronts the single mind of
Socrates. Though this brave assailant has every
prospect of being shattered for the time, the wall of
prejudice seems to quiver and open thanks to the
immortality which Plato has bestowed on his hero
under the continual impact of his teaching from
that day to ours.
As the conversation proceeds, it becomes increas
ingly evident that Plato is speaking through the
mouth of Socrates to the world at large, and especially
to the critics who objected to his abandonment of
the political sphere. The supposed date of the
meeting is 405 b.c. (see 474 a, note), when Socrates
was sixty-four ; and yet Callicles exhorts him almost
as though he were a young man of promise who had
still a career to choose. There is also good reason
to think that the theory of order or harmony as
the secret of virtue was of Plato's own invention
(on a hint from the Pythagoreans), as it is quite
"
distinct from the Socratic virtue is knowledge,"
and is developed, to lengths far beyond the analytical
powers of Socrates, in the Republic and the Philebus.
And we should note that in sketching here the
255
independent standing and high devotion of the

philosopher a picture that he elaborated after
wards in the Theaetetus he leaves out the duty of
cross-examining every casual person of one's ac
quaintance which Socrates proclaims in the Apology.
The Gorgias, in fact, as has been well said, is Plato's
" "
own Apology : we may, in fact, -
See there the olive grove of Academe,
Plato's retirement,
and this explains the peculiar severity of his attitude

and language towards statesmen of the past and the
present. In the Protagoras and the Meno, it should
be remembered, Pericles and Themistocles were
examples of wisdom. As Plato tells us himself in
"
his seventh Letter, I found myself obliged to
say, in praise of the right kind of philosophy, that
this alone can give us insight into public and private
justice ; and that consequently the human kind in
every land will have no cessation from evil until
either the kind of men who rightly and truly pursue
philosophy shall acquire authority in the state, or
the ruling statesmen shall by some divine dispensation
be real philosophers." The Gorgias and the Republic
(which must have been begun about the same time,
390-387 b.c.) show us how he actually said it. Both
dialogues are remarkable for a new certainty of
conviction and statement (cf. Gorg. 509 a), and for
an enthusiastic fluency which is hardly in keeping
with Socrates' avowed dislike of lengthy speeches
(cf. Gorg. 519 d, where Socrates tries to excuse his
"
harangue "). We hear also in the Gorgias (cf.
499 a) the unmistakable tone of the teacher who
is intent on pure logic : the purview is no longer
256
limited to the ethical outlook of Socrates,
expanding into the region of metaphysics.
but is \
S
The best modern edition of the Gorgias is that of
W. H. Thompson (1871). The present translation is
indebted at many points to the accurate and spirited
version of E. M. Cope (Deighton Bell, 1864).
VOL. V 257
ropriAS
[h nEPI PHTOPIKH2" ANATPEIITIKOS]
TA TOT AIAAOrOT IIPOiMIA

KAAAIKAH2, 2nKPATH2, XAIPEGON, rOPriA2, rmA02
i)S447
KAAA. HoXep,ov Kal p,dxrjS <f>acrl xprjvai, <L
HcjKpares, ovtco p,eraXayxdvei.v .
2fi. 'AAA' 7j to Xeyop.evov Karomv eop-rfjs

rjKop,ev {teal varepovfievY ;
KAAA. Kat p,dXa ye darelas ioprfjs. TroXXd yap
Kal KaXd YopyLas rjptv oXiyov nporepov eTreoeiâro .
2fi. Tovrcov p,h>Toi, cu KoAAikAcij, curios Xaipe-
B (f>d)v oSe, ev ayopa avayKaaas r/p-as Siarptifiai.
XAIP. 0v8ev irpayp,a, ai TiWKpares' eycu yap Kal
ldaop.ai. <f>lXos yap p.01, Topyias, war imoeiêrai
rjp.lv, el p.ev hoKel, vvv, edv ok fiovXr), elaavOis.
KAAA. Ti Se, & Xaipe(f>a>v ; emdvp,et HiWKpdrrjs
OLKOvaai Topyiov;
XAIP. 'En' avro ye roi tovto ndpeap.ev .
KAAA. Ovkovv orav fiovXirjode nap' ep,e yJKew
1
Kal vGTepovntv seel. Cobet.
258
GORGIAS
[or ON RHETORIC; reputative]
r-
CHARACTERS
Callici.es, Socrates, Chaerephon, Gorgias, Polus
call. To join in a fight or a fray, as the saying is,

Socrates, you have chosen your time well enough.
soc. Do you mean, according to the proverb, we
have come too late for a feast ? *
call. Yes, a most elegant feast ; for Gorgias gave
us a fine and varied display but a moment ago.
soc. But indeed, Callicles, it is Chaerephon here
who must take the blame for this ; he forced us to
spend our time in the market-place.
chaer. No matter, Socrates : I will take the
curing of it too ; for Gorgias is a friend of mine, so
that he will give us a display now, if you think fit,
or if you prefer, on another occasion.
call. What, Chaerephon ? Has Socrates a desire
to hear Gorgias ?
chaer. Yes, it is for that very purpose we are here.
call. Then whenever you have a mind to pay me
K. H. IV.iv. 2. 74 :
" To the
1
Cf. Shakespeare, 1
latter end of a fray and the beginning of a feast, Fits a dull

fighter and a keen guest."
259
PLATO
oiKaoe- Trap ep,ol yap Yopyias KaraXvei Kal
emoeiêrai vp.lv.
2a. Eu Xeyeis, a> KaAAi'/cAeis. dXX' apa i9e-
C Xrjoeiev av r)pXv SiaXexdrjvai; /3ouAo/xai yap rrv-
deadai nap' avrov, ris r) Swap? rrjs re)(yr]s rov
dvSpos, Kal rl ear iv 8 errayyeXXeral re Kal oiSdoKef
rr)v oe aXXrjv enlBeiîv elaavdis, oicmep av Xeyeis,
Troirjordadco .
KAAA. OuSev otov ro avrov eparrav, <L YidtKpares.

Kai yap aura) ev rovr r\v rrjs emoeleoos' eKeXeve
yovv vvv epairav o ri ris fiovXoiro rGxv evSov
Sr)
ovruiv, Kai npos anavra ecf>rj drroKpiveiadai.

2fl. 'H koXcos Xeyeis. XaipeâV, epov avrov.
Ti a)
xaip. epa>p,ai;
2fl. "Oans eariv.
xaip. Hois' Xeyeis;
D 2n. "Qarrep av
el
ervy\avev d>v VTroorjp.druiv

orjp,iovpy6s, aveKplvaro av otJttov aoi on okvto-
to/xos" ov piavddveis d>S Xeyoj;
r)
XAIP. MavOdvco Kal eprjcrop,ai. ehri p.01, Top-

<L
yla, dXrjdrj Xeyei KaAAi/cA^? ooe, ori eTrayyeXXrj
diTOKpLveodai ri av ris ae epcora;
6
448 ropr. 'AXrjdrj, u> Xaipecjjwv Kal yap vvv

or)
avrd ravra eTrqyyeXXop.rjv, Kal Xeyoj on ovoeis
p,e ttu> r)pa>rrjKe Kaivov oi8ev TroXXwv ercbv.
XAIP. TH ttov dpa paolais dnoKpivfj, to Yopyia.
rorr. Yldpeari rovrov
&
Treipav, Xat.pe(f>wv,
Xap.fidveiv.
Ai'a- av oe ye fiovXr),
c5
XID.A. Ni7 Xaipe<f>u>v

,
ip,ov. Topyias p.ev yap /cat d-neip-qKevai px>i ooKei'

TToXXd yap dpri SieXr/XvOev.
260
GORGIAS
a call Gorgias is staying with me, and he will give

you a display.
soc. Thank you, Callicles : but would he consent
to discuss with us ? For I want to find out from the
man what is the function of his art, and what it is
that he professes and teaches. As for the rest of
his performance, he must give it us, as you suggest,
on another occasion.
call. The best way is to ask our friend himself,
Socrates : for indeed that was one of the features
of his performance. Why, only this moment he was
pressing for whatever questions anyone in the house
might like to ask, and saying he would answer
them all.
soc. What a good idea ! Ask him, Chaerephon.
chaer. What am I to ask ?
soc. What he is.
chaer. How do you mean ?
soc. Just as, if he chanced to be in the shoe-
making business, his answer would have been, I
"
presume, a shoemaker." Now, don't you see my
meaning ?
chaer. I
see, and will ask him. Tell me, Gorgias,
is Callicles here correct in saying that you profess
to answer any questions one may ask you ?
gorg. He is, Chaerephon ; indeed, I was just now
making this very profession, and I may add that no
body has asked me anything new for many years now.
chaer. So I presume you will easily answer,
Gorgias.
gorg. You are free to make trial of that, Chaerephon.
pol. Yes, to be sure ; and, if you like, Chaerephon,
of me. For I think Gorgias must be quite tired out,
after the long discourse he has just delivered.
261
PLATO
XAIP. Ti
IltDAe;Se',otei ai) KaXXiov av
d>
Yopylov diroKplvaadai ;
B nnA. Tt Se rovro, edv aol ye IxavaJs;
xaip. OvSev dXX' ai) fiovXei, diroKplvov.
eVeiS^
nnA. Epcbra.
xaip. ei Tvyxav Fopylas e-ni-
'E/ocotcS S77.
ar-qfiwv u>v rrjs rex"7)5 âirep 6 dSeAô? avrov
HpoSi/cos, riva av avrov d}vop,dt,opi.ev StKalcus;
oix ortep enetvov;
nnA. IldVu ye.
xaip. 'larpov dpa avrov etvai koXojs
<f)daKovres
av eXeyop,ev.
nnA. Nai.
'
XAIP. Et Se ye rjonep Apiaro<f>cov 6 'AyAao-
avrov efineipos rexyrjs,
tfv
<f>a>vros rj 6 d8eX<f>6s
riva av avrov opdws eKaXovp.ev
;
nnA. AijXov ort,

C
Z,coypd<f>ov .
xaip. Nvv rlvos rexvrjS imcmjfMjov
S'
eTreiSrj
earl, riva av KaXovvres avrov 6p0a>s KaXolpev;
nnA. *D Xatpe^tDv, 7roAAat riyyai ev dvdpojrroLS
eloiv e'/c rcov epnelpais rfiprr\p,evat,-
ep.neipiwv
ifiTreipla p.ev ydp Troiet rov alwva rjfMcov rropeveaOau
Kara. reyyi)v, direipla Se Kara. rv^rfv. eKaaratv
Se rovrojv [ieraXafj,j3dvovoiv aXXot, dXXcov dXXais,
rdv Se dplarojv ol dpiaroi- <Lv Kal Topylag earrlv

oSe, Kal /iereêt rfjs KaXXlurrj? ra>v reyy&v.
D sn. K.aXa>s ye, a> Topyla, <f>alverai. IlaiXos
TrapeoKevdcrQai els Xoyovs' aXXd yap 0 vireoxero
Xaipe^xwTi ov noiel.
262
GORGIAS
chaer. Why, Polus, do you suppose you could

answer more excellently than Gorgias ?
pol. And what does that matter, if I should
satisfy you ?
chaer. Not at all ; since it is your wish, answer.
pol. Ask.
chaer. Then I ask you, if Gorgias chanced to be
skilled in the same art as his brother Herodicus,
what should we be justified in calling him ? What
we call his brother, should we not ?
pol. Certainly.
chaer. Then we should make a right statement
if we described him as a doctor.
pol. Yes.
chaer. And if he were expert in the same art
as Aristophon, son of Aglaophon, or his brother,1
what name should we rightly give him ?
pol. Obviously that of painter.
chaer. But as it is, we would like to know in
what art he is skilled, and hence by what name we
should rightly call him.
pol. Chaerephon, there are many arts amongst
mankind that have been discovered experimentally,
as the result of experiences : for experience conducts
the course of our life according to art, but in
experience according to chance. Of these several
arts various men partake in various ways, and the
best men of the best. Gorgias here is one of
these, and he is a partner in the finest art of all.
soc. Fine, at any rate, Gorgias, is the equipment
for discourse that Polus seems to have got : but still
he is not performing his promise to Chaerephon.
1
Polygnotus, the famous painter who decorated public
buildings in Athens from about 470 B.C.
263
PLATO
ropr. Ti pdAiora, toHcoKpares ;
Sn. To ipwTiLfxevov ov navv /xot </>alveTai
aTTOKpiveadai.
ropr. 'AAAd ov, el fiovAei, epov avrov.
2n. Ovk, el avrco ye aol fSov\op.eva>
earlv
aTTOKpiveodcu, dAAa ttoXv av rjoiov oe. SfjAos yap
E poi UcoXos /cat e wv e'lprjKev, on rr)v koXov-
p,evr/v pijropwcjjv paAAov p.ep.eXerr)Kev rj SiaAe-
yeadai.
rmA. Ti orj, St "LcoKpares ;
2fl. "Oti,
IltoAe, epop.evov Xaipe^dWos- rlvos
to
Topylas emarr)p.utv re)(yrjs, ey/ca>pideis- pev ai)rot>
rrp Texvrjv coorrep nvos >peyovTOS, rjTis oe eoriv
ovk aireKpivoj.
nnA. Ou yap a.TreKpa'dp.rjv on elrj r) KaXXlorr);
2fl. Kai pdAa ye. dAA' ousels' r)poora nolo, ns
elrj r) Yopylov re^vrj, dAAa rls kou ovnva Seoi
KaXelv rov coanep ra epvnpooQev croc
Topyiav
449 virerelva.ro Xaipe^tov *ai avrco /caAtos* /cai Sid
jSpaê'air a/neKpivu)- kol vvv ovtids enre tis tj reyyr]
Kal riva Topyiav KaXelv \pr) r)p,as. paAAov 8e,
to Topyia, auros rjp.lv elite, riva oe XP7) KaXelv ai?
TiVoy ernorr)p,ova rexyrjs.
TOPI".Trjs prjropiKrjs, to EaWpare?.
sn. 'P^ropa dpa ^P7? ffe KaXelv;
ropr. 'Aya#oV ye, w Eto/cpaTes, ei or) o ye
etôpai eivai, d>? e^ "Qpirjpos, fiovXei pe KaAeii\
sn. 'AAAd jSouAopai.
ropr. KdAei Stj.
264
GORGIAS
gorg. How exactly, Socrates ?
soc. He does not seem to me to be quite answering
what he is asked.
gorg. Well, will you please ask him ?
soc. No, if you yourself will be so good as to
answer, why, I would far rather ask you. For I see
plainly, from what he has said, that Polus has had
more practice in what is called rhetoric than in
discussion.
pol. How so, Socrates ?
soc. Because, Polus, when Chaerephon has asked

in what art Gorgias is skilled, you merely eulogize
his art as though it were under some censure, instead
of replying what it is.
pol. Why, did I not reply that it was the finest ?
soc. You certainly did : but nobody asked what
was the quality of his art, only what it was, and by
what name we ought to call Gorgias. Just as
Chaerephon laid out the lines for you at first, and
you answered him properly in brief words, in the
same way you must now state what is that art,
and what we ought to call Gorgias ; or rather,
Gorgias, do you tell us yourself in what art it is
you are skilled, and hence, what we ought to call
you.
gorg. Rhetoric, Socrates.
soc. So we are to call you a rhetorician ?
gorg. Yes, and a good one, if you would call me
"
what to use Homer's phrase I vaunt myself
to be." x
soc. Well, I
shall be pleased to do so.
gorg. Then call me such.
1
The regular phrase of a Homeric hero in boasting of
his valour, parentage, etc.; cf. II. vi. 211, xiv. 113.
265
PLATO
B 2n. Ovkow /cat dXXovs ere (fxjjfiev Svvarov elvat

iroieZv;
ropr. ravra ov
8r)
EiTrayyeXXofial ye [aovov
evddSe dAAd Kal dXXodi.
2fl. TA/)' ovv iOeXfjoacg dv, Yopyia, ajoiTep
t5
vvv 8iaXeyop.e9a, SiareAeaai to p.ev epoirtbv, to
airoKpivofievos, to tovto,
8'
8e p.r\KOs tcov Xoycov

otov Kal YlcbXos rjpâro, elcravdis atroOiadai dXX'
;
onep vmoxyi}, /xtj ifievar), dXXd ideXrjoov Kara
Ppa-xv to epuniofxevov diroKpiveardai.
ropr. Eicn. p.ev, a Sco/cpaTey, eviai tGv avrro-
KpLaewv avayKalai Sia p.aKpuJv tovs Xoyovs iroiel-
a9av ov fir/v dAAd Treipdaop,ai ye cos Sid fipaxv-
C
TaTcov. /cat yap an Kal tovto ev eoTiv iov <f>r][xi,

p,rj8eva dv ev ppaxvrepois ep,ov to. avTa elireiv.
-
2n. Tovrov p.r)v Set, Yopyia- Kai fiot eiri8eiîv

<L
avrov tovtov TTolrjoai, Trjs fipaxvXoyias, fiaKpo-

Xoyias Be elcravdis.
ropr. 'AAAa Troirjoat, Kal ovhevos <f>rjcreis flpa-
XvXoyaiTepov aKovcrai.
in. Oepe
Sry
prjropiKrjs yap <f>r)s emaTrjp.a>v

D Texyys etvai Kal noirjoai dv Kal dXXov prjTopa'

r)
pTjTopLKrj Ttepl tL tu>v ovtcdv Tvyxdvei oSoa;
wcrnep v<f>avTiKr) irepi ttjv twv ip,aTiu>v epyaaiav
r)
yap;
rj
ropr. Nai.
2fl. Ovkow Kal fwvaucrj rrepl tt)v tGxv p.eXCw
rj
Troirjaiv;
ropr. Nat.
2n.Nr) Tr)v "Hpav, Yopyia, dya/xai ye Tag
cS
diroKpicreis, oti dnoKpivrj cos otov tc Std j8pa-

XvraTaw.
266
GORGIAS
soc. And are we to say that you are able to make

others like yourself ?
gorg. Yes, that is what I profess to do, not only
here, but elsewhere also.
soc. Then would you be willing, Gorgias, to
continue this present way of discussion, by alternate
question and answer, and defer to some other time
that lengthy style of speech in which Polus made a
beginning ? Come, be true to your promise, and
consent to answer each question briefly.
gorg. There are some answers, Socrates, that
necessitate a lengthy expression : however, I will
try to be as brief as possible ; for indeed it is one
of my claims that no one could express the same
thing in briefer terms than myself.
soc. That is just what I want, Gorgias : give me
a display of this very skill in brevity of speech ;
your lengthy style will do another time.
gorg. Well, I will do that, and you will admit
that you never heard anyone speak more briefly.
soc. Come then ; since you claim to be skilled
in rhetorical art, and to be able to make anyone
else a rhetorician, tell me with what particular
thing rhetoric is concerned : as, for example, weav
ing is concerned with the manufacture of clothes,
is it not ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. And music, likewise, with the making of tunes?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Upon my word, Gorgias, I do admire your
answers ! You make them as brief as they well can
be.
!267
PLATO
ropr. IlaVu ydp otp,ai, co Sw/cpare?, imeiKuis
TOVTO TTOielv.
2n. E5 Aeyeiy. t'0t p,oi airoicpivai ovrco Kal
8rj
irepl rfjs prjropiKrjs, irepl ri ra>v ovrcov iarlv
imcjT'^p.ri
;
ropr. Ilept Xoyovs.
2n. Yloiovs tovtovs, to Topyia;
apa ot SiyAouox
E
rovs Kapwovras, cos av 8iaiTcbp,evoi vyiaivoiev
;
ropr. Ov.
Sn. Ovk apa irepi navras ye tovs Xoyovs
17
prjTopLKrj eortv.
ropr. Ov 8fjra.
2fl. 'AAAd pvrjv Xeyeiv ye iroiel Swarovs.
ropr. Nat.
sn. Qvkovv irepl cbvirep Xeyeiv, Kal <j>poveZv;
ropr. IlcDs' yap ov;
2n. rAp' ofiv, rjv vvv
Srj
45O eXeyopiev, tarpt/oj irepl

tcov Kap,v6vTO>v iroiel Svvarovs elvai (fipoveiv Kal17
Xeyeiv;
ropr. AvdyKr].
sn. Kat larpiKT] apa, cos eome, irepi Xoyovs
t]
eariv.
ropr. Nat.
2n. Tovs ye irepl to, voa^p,ara;
ropr. MdAtara.
2fl. Ovkovv Kal yvp.vaoTt.K'r) irepl Xoyovs earl
rj
tovs irepl eveîav re rGiv acopiaTcov Kal Kaê^Cav;

ropr. Ilavu ye.
2n. Kat p,rjv Kal at aAAat repeat, co Yopyia,
ovtcos eôvaw eKao-T-q airtbv irepi Xoyovs earl
B
tovtovs, ot rvyxavovow ovres Trepl to irpayp,a, ov

eKaoTT) cotIv Teyyt).
r)
26'8
GORGIAS
gohg. Yes, Socrates, I consider myself a very fair
hand at that.
soc. You are right there. Come now, answer me
in the same way about rhetoric : with what parti
cular thing is its skill concerned ?
goro. With speech.
soc. What kind of speech, Gorgias ? Do you
mean that which shows sick people by what regimen
they could get well ?
gorg. No.
soc. Then rhetoric is not concerned with all kinds
of speech.
gorg. No, I say.
soc. Yet it does make men able to speak.
gorg. Yes.
soc. And to understand also the things about
which they speak.
gorg. Of course.
soc. Now, does the medical art, which we men
tioned just now, make men able to understand and
speak about the sick ?
gorg. It must.
soc. Hence the medical art also, it seems, is
concerned with speech.
gorg. Yes.
soc. That is, speech about diseases ?
gorg. Certainly.
soc. Now, is gymnastic also concerned with speech
about the good and bad condition of our bodies ?
gorg. Quite so.
soc. And moreover it'is the same, Gorgias, with
all the other arts ; each of them is concerned with
that kind of speech which deals with the subject
matter of that particular art.
269
PLATO
ropr. Oaiverat.
Ti
8rj
2n. ovv TTore rds dAAas Teyyas ov prjro-
piKas KaXets, ovaas rrepl Xoyovs, elitep ravr-qv
prjTopLKrjV KaXets, av Trepl Xoyovs;
fj
$
ropr. "On, w HcoKpares, rd>v p,ev olWcjv reyycov
Trepl yeipovpyias re Kal roiavras rrpdêis, lbs erros
elrreiv, rraad eariv eiricrrqpirj, rrjs 8e prjropiKrjs
r)
ovSev earn roiovrov xeipovpyqp.a, dAAd rraaa
r)
Trpais Kal Kiipcoais Sid Xoycov eariv. Sid ravr'
C
r)
iytb rr)v pt]ropiKr\v reyyrpi dia> elvai irepl Xoyovs,

opdcos Xeycov, lbs iytb ^rj/xi.
sn. *Ap' oSv p.av9dvco olav dirty j8ot>Aei /ca-
Xeiv; rd\a 8e e"aop,ai oacf>earepov. dXX' drto-
Kpivar elalv r)pZv rexvai. ydp;
r)
ropr. Nai.
2n. TLaocbv 817, otp,cu, rtov
reyvdv rcov piev
epyaaia to ttoXv ecm Kal Xoyov fipaxeos 8eovrai,
eviai 8e ov8evos, dAAd to rrjs riyy-qs TrepaLvoi.ro
dv Kal Sid oiyrjs, otov ypa<j>iKr) Kal dv8piavrorroua
I)
Kal dXXai iroXXai. ras roiavras p.01 8oKeis Xeyew,

Trepl as ov cf>rjs rrjv prjTopiKr/v etvai' ov;
rj
ropr. Haw p.ev ovv koXlos tmoXap-Pdveis

<S
,
TiioKpares .
2Q. "Erepai ye elai rcov re)(yibv at Sid Xoyov
Se
nav rrepaivovcri, Kal epyov, ibs erros eiTretv,
r)
ov8ev6s Trpoa8eovrai fipa\eos rrdvv, otov dpi-

r)
OpvqriKr) Kal XoyiariKr) Kal yecop,erpiKrj Kal irerrev-

tiktj ye Kal dAAai 77oAAai reyyai, cbv eviai crjêSoV
rt laovs tovs Xoyovs eôvai rats rrpdêaiv, ai 8e
7roAAai irXeiovs, Kai to napdnav iraaa rrpaîs Kal
rj
270
GORGIAS
gorg. Apparently.
soc. Then why, pray, do you not give the name
"rhetorical" to those other arts, when they, are
" "
concerned with speech, if you call that rhetoric
which has to do with speech ?
gorg. Because, Socrates, the skill in those other
arts is almost wholly concerned with manual work
and similar activities, whereas in rhetoric there is
no such manual working, but its whole activity and
efficacy is by means of speech. For this reason I
claim for the rhetorical art that it is concerned with
speech, and it is a correct description, I maintain.
soc. Now, do I understand what sort of art you
choose to call it ? Perhaps, however, I shall get to
know this more clearly. But answer me this : we
have arts, have we not ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Then amongst the various arts some, I take
it, consist mainly of work, and so require but brief
speech while others require none, for the art's
;
object may be achieved actually in silence, as with

painting, sculpture, and many other arts. It is to
such as these that I understand you to refer when
you say rhetoric has no concern with them ; is not
that so ?
gorg. Your supposition is quite correct, Socrates.
soc. But there is another class of arts which achieve
their whole purpose through speech and to put it
roughly require either no action to aid them, or
very little ; for example, numeration, calculation,
geometry, draught-playing, and many other arts :
some of these have the speech in about equal
proportion to the action, but most have it as the
larger part, or absolutely the whole of their operation
271
PLATO
to Kvpos aureus Sia Aoycov earl, nbv roiovroov
E two. fj.01 SoKets Aeyew rrjv prjropiicqv.
ropr. 'AArjdrj Aeyeis.
2fl. 'AAA' oiroi rovrwv ye ovoep.iav olp.ai ere
fiovAeadai prjroptKrjv KaAeiv, ox>x on rep prjp,an
ovrcos enres, on rj Sia Xoyov ro Kvpos eôvaa
pTjTopiKTj ion, /ecu VTToAdpoi dv rtj, el fiovAoiTO
Svaxepaivew evrots Aoyois, tt)v dpi8p.7}nKrjv apa
py]TopiKVjv, to Topyia, Aeyeis; aAA' ovk otp.al ae
ovre rrjv dpi6p,rjriKr]V ovre rrjv yecop,erplav p-ryro-
piKTjv Aeyew.
451 ropr. 'Opdios yap olei, di Sco/cparey, kcu Si/cai'tos
!;7ToAa//./JaVei?.
Sn. "I0i vvv av rrjv diroKpiaiv rjv rjpofirjv
heal
Sianepavov. eWi ydp 7) prjropiKrj rvyxdvei p-ev
ovaa rovnov ns rdv rexyibv rdiv ro ttoAv Aoyco
Xpojp,eviov , rvyydvovai Se /cat aAAat roiavrai
ovaai, neipcb elnelv, 17 vepl rl ev Aoyois to Kvpos
exovoa pt]TopiK"q eanv." wairep dv el ns p.e epoiro
djv vvv eAeyov irepi ijanvoaovv nbv rexyebv a>
St)
UtoKpares, ns ionv dpidp.rjTiK'r) rexvrj; eliroifi

rj
av avrcb, wairep ail dpn, on nbv Sia. Adyou ns to

B
Kvpos exovodjv kcu et p,e enavepot.ro' nbv Trepl rl;

eiTroi/x' dv on nbv irepi ro dpnov re /cai irepirrov
[yvcbais],1 daa dv eKarepa rvyxdvrj ovra.
el
S'
av epoiro' rrjv Se AoyianKijV riva KaAels rexyrjv;

e'liroip,' dv on /cat avrrj earl nbv Aoyco ro nav
Kvpovp-evojv Kal rrepl rl; emoip,'
el
eiravepovro-
rj
dv aiarrep ol ev rib StJ/xco avyypa<f>6p.evoi, on to

0
juev aAAa Kaddrrep dpidp.rjn.Krj AoyiariKr) ejfef

rj
r)
yvGxris seel. Bekker.

1
272
GORGIAS
and effect is by means of speech. It is one of this

class of arts that I think you refer to as rhetoric.
gorg. You are right.
soc. But, mind you, I do not think it is any one
of these that you mean to call rhetoric ; though, so
far as your expression went, you did say that the
art which has its effect through speech is rhetoric,
and one might retort, if one cared to strain at mere
words : So, Gorgias, you call numeration rhetoric !
But I do not believe it is either numeration or geo
metry that you call rhetoric.
gorg. Your belief is correct, Socrates, and your
supposition just.
soc. Come now, and do your part in finishing off
the answer to my question. Since rhetoric is in
fact one of these arts which depend mainly on speech,
and there are likewise other arts of the same nature,
try if you can tell me with what this rhetoric, which
has its effect in speech, is concerned. For instance,
suppose some one asked me about one or other of
the arts which I was mentioning just now : Socrates,
what is the art of numeration ? I should tell him,
as you did me a moment ago, that it is one of those
which have their effect through speech. And
suppose he went on to ask : With what is its speech
concerned ? I should say : With the odd and even
numbers, and the question of how many units there
are in each. And if he asked again : What art is
it that you call calculation ? I should say that this
also is one of those which achieve their whole effect
by speech. And if he proceeded to ask : With
what is it concerned ? I should say in the manner
of those who draft amendments in the Assembly
that in most respects calculation is in the same case
vol. v t 273
PLATO
Trepi to avro yap eaTi, to tc dpTiov Kal to Trepmov

8ia<f>epei Se tooovtov, oti Kal Trpos avrd Kal Trpos
dXXr/Xa ttcos e\ei ttXt]6ovs imoKoirel to -rrepiTTOv
Kai to apTiov r) XoyioTiKT). Kal et tis Trjv aoTpo-
vopiiav dvepono, ep,ov XeyovTOS oti Kal avrrj Xoyip
KvpovTat, tol irdvTa, oi Se Xoyoi ol ttjs doTpovop,las,
et <f>alrj, Tt elaiv, cS Sco/cparej;
7Te/3i eiTroifi av
oti -rrepl ttjv tcov doTpaw cj)opdv Kal r)Xlov Kai
aeXfjvrjs, mos Trpos aXXrjXa Ta\ovs eêi.
ropr. 'OpOws ye Xeyiov av, w 2id>KpaTes
D Kal av, a> Topyla. Tvyxdvei p.ev
St)
2n. "16 1
prjTopiKr) oSaa tcov Xoyip ra rravTa
8r/
yap
rj
SianpaTTO/jLevuiv Te Kal Kvpov/xevwv yap;
rj
ropr. "Eon Tavra.
2n. tcov -rrepl tL; ri1 eaTi tovto
Sr)
Ae'ye
tcov ovtcov, nepl ov ovtoi ol Xoyoi eiaiv, ois
rj
pr/TopiKT] xprJTai;
ropr. Ta p,eyioTa tcov dvdpwrrelcov TrpayfiaTcov,
to YicoKpaTes, Kal dpiOTa.
'AAA', co Topyla, dp.<f>io-f5rjTrjOip,ov Kal tovto
2fl.
Xeyeis Kal ov8ev ttco aacf>es. olofxai ydp ae aKrjKoe-
E
vac ev tois ovjattooIois d86vTcov tovto

dv6pcoircov
to okoXiov, KaTapidpLowTai aSovTes art
<L
ev
vyialveiv piev dpiarov eari, to Se 8evTepov KaXov
yeveodai, Tp'iTov Se', cos <f>rjoiv TroirjTrjs tov
o
okoXiov, to TrXovTelv d86Xcos.

ropr. 'KK-qKoa yap- dXXa Trpos tovto Xeyeis;
rl
2n. "Ort ool aurt/ea rrapaaTalev ol Sr/fMiovpyot

el'
452
Tovroiv cov eTrrjveaev to okoXiov iroirjaas, laTpos
6
Te Kal Trai8oTpl/3rjs Kal xprjp,aTioTrjs, Kai enrol
ri add. Heindorf.
1
274
GORGIAS
as numeration, for both are concerned with the same

thing, the odd and the even ; but that they differ
to this extent, that calculation considers the numerical
values of odd and even numbers not merely in them
selves but in relation to each other. And suppose,
on my saying that astronomy also achieves its whole
effect by speech, he were to ask me : And the speech
of astronomy, with what is it concerned ? I should
say : With the courses of the stars and sun and
moon, and their relative speeds.
gorg. And you would be right, Socrates.
soc. Come then and do your part, Gorgias :
rhetoric is one of those arts, is it not, which carry
out their work and achieve their effect by speech ?
gorg. That is so.
soc. Then tell me what they deal with : what
subject is it, of all in the world, that is dealt with by
this speech employed by rhetoric ?
gorg. The greatest of human affairs, Socrates,
and the best.
soc. But that also, Gorgias, is ambiguous, and
still by no means clear. I expect you have heard
people singing over their cups the old catch, in
which the singers enumerate the best things in '
life, first health, then beauty, and thirdly, as the
maker of the catch puts it, wealth got without guile.1
gorg. Yes, I have heard it ; but what is the point
of your quotation ?
soc. I mean that, supposing the producers of those
blessings which the maker of the catch commends
namely, the doctor, the trainer, and the money
1
Bergk, Poet. Lyr. Gr. viii., gives four lines of the
(anonymous) song : irytalvetv pv dpiarov avbpl dvarip, dcurepov
8t (pvav KaXdf yevtadat, rd rpirov 82 irXovrtXv a.86\us, teal t6 T^rap-
tov i)fid.v p.Ta tCjv <pi\ujv,
275
PLATO
rrptorov [lev o larpos on to HcvKpares, eâirara.

ae Topylas- ov yap earw rj tovtov Texv7l rrepl to
p.eyiarov ayadov rots dvdpojrrois, dXX' r) ifisq' ei
ovv avrov eytb epolfirjv av Se rls ojv ravra Ae'yet?;
eiTrot av icrto? on larpos. ri ovv Xeyeis; ij to rfjs
crijs epyov p,eyiar6v earw ayadov;
rex^qs 7700?
yap ov, <pair) dv iou>s, to Ti(x>Kpares, vyieia; 8' ri
B eari p,eiov ayadov dvdpcorroLS vyieias' el S' aS
fierd tovtov naiSoTpiprjs elrroi. on davp,doipil
6
toV, a) HojKpares, Kal avros, et aoi e\oi Vopyias
p.elt,ov ayadov emhe'Ujai rrjs avrov rexvr/s V ^yd>
rfjs e/MTJs' eiTTOipS dv av Kal rrpos tovtov av Se
S17
rls el, to dvdpwne, Kal rl to adv epyov; rraiSo-
rplfirjs, <f>alr) dv, to epyov p,ov eon koXovs re Kal
8'
LO)(vpovs noielv rovs avdpwnovs rd aiop.ara. fiera

Se rov TraiooTplfirjv eXirot av 6
xPVflaTlo"!"!ls> <*K
eyu>p,ai, irdvv Kara(f>povcdv arcdvTutv aKorrei Sfjra,

C
to HcoKpares, edv 001 ttXovtov <pavfj n fielt,ov

ayadov ov irapa Topyia Trap1 aAAto ortpovv.
r\
r)
<f>aip.ev dv ofiv npos avrov rl Se 817,- av tovtov

rj
Srjp,iovpy6s (pair/ dv. ris a>v; xPrHJLariaT7ls ri

;
ovv; Kplvecs av p,eyiarov dvOpcbrrois ayadov elvai
-nXovrov; (ffqaopLev. 77x05 yap ovk; epeX. Kai, pvqv

dp,<f>ia/3r]TeZ ye Topyias o8e rrjv nap' avrco rexvrjv
p.eit,ovos ayadov alriav etvai rr/v or/v, <f>alp,ev av
rj
rivets. BfjXov ovv on to p,erd rovro epoir av

Kal ri ear rovro rd
D
dyadov; drroKpLvdodoj
1
Topyias. ffli ovv vop.iaas, Yopyla, epoiraadai

co
Kal vtt' eKelvcov Kal vrt ep,ov, arroKpivai n eari
rovro o <f>f)s av p,eyiarov dyadov elvai rots av-
dpomois Kal ae Sij/iioupyov elvai avrov.
276
GORGIAS
getter were to stand before you this moment, and

"
the doctor first should say : Gorgias is deceiving
you, Socrates ; for it is not his art, but mine, that
deals with man's greatest good." Then supposing
I were to ask him : " And who" are you, to say" so ? "
He would probably reply : A doctor." Well,
what do you mean ? That the work of your art is
" "
the greatest good ? What else, Socrates," I
" is health ? What greater
expect he would reply,
"
good is there for men than health ? And supposing
the trainer came next and said : "I also should be
surprised indeed, Socrates, if Gorgias could show you
a greater good in his art than I can in mine." Again
"
I should say to him in his turn ": And who are you,
sir ? What is your work ?
"
"A trainer," he
would reply, and my work is making men's bodies
beautiful and strong." After the trainer would
come the money-getter, saying with, I fancy, a
"
fine contempt for every one : Pray consider,
Socrates, if you can find a good that is greater than
wealth, either in Gorgias' view or in that of anyone
"
else at all." Why then," we should say to him,
" " "
are you a producer of that ? Yes," he would
" "
say.
"
And who are you ? "A "money-getter."
Well then," we shall say to him, do you judge
" "
wealth to be the greatest good for men ? Of
course," he will reply.
"
But look here," we should
"
say ; our friend Gorgias contends that his own art is
a cause of greater good than yours." Then doubtless
"
his next question would be : And what is that good ?
Let Gorgias answer." Now come, Gorgias ; imagine
yourself being questioned by those persons and by
me, and tell us what is this thing that you say is the
greatest good for men, and that you claim to produce.
277
PLATO
ropr. earlv, Si HwKpaTes, rff dXrjdela
"0776/3
[Aeyiorov dyadov Kal atnov dp,a p,ev iXevOeptas
avrois tols dvdpwnois, dfia Se tov dXXcov apêtv
ev rfj avrov TroXei e/cacrra).
2n. Tt ovv tovto Xeyeis;
87)
ropr. To Treldeiv eytoy olov t elvai tols
E
Xoyois /cat ev oLKaaTrjplcp St/caoras /cat iv fiov-

XevTTjplw fiovXevTas Kal ev e'/c/cATiata e/c/cATjcrtaoras
Kal ev dXXcp avXXoyw ttovtl, ogtls dv ttoXitlkos
avXXoyos yiyv-qrai. /cairot ev ravrrj ttj Svvd/j,ei
SovXov p.ev eeis tov laTpov, SovXov 8e tov iraio'o-
Tpij3r]V Se xPrllJ'aTl0"T'Vs ^TO? dXXw dva<j>avqoeTai
6
XpT)HaTi,6iJ,evos Kal ovx avTq>, dXXd crol tu> hvva-

fievco Xeyeiv /cat itelQew t<z TrXrjdr).
2n. Nw 80/ceis STjAtDcrai, a> Yopyla, eyyv-
jLtot
453 raro tt)v prjTopiicqv rjVTiva Te\vr\v rjyfj etvat, /cat
et ti eya> awiTjfii, Aeyet? otl neiOovs 8rjfj,iovpy6s
eariv prjTopiKrj, /cat npaypLwreia avTrjs airaaa
77
r)
Kal to Ke<j>dXaiov els tovto TeXevTa- eêts ti

7}
Xeyeiv em rrXeov ttjv prjTopiKTjv Bvvaadai ireidw

77
tols aKovovoiv ev ttj i/jvxjj iroieiv;

ropr. dAAa pioi So/cety
cS
0v8afia>s, ULcoKpaTes,
t/cavaij oplêadai- eoTi yap tovto to Ke<f>dXaiov
avTfjs.
2n. "Akovoov 877, w Topyia. eyd> yap ev lad'
otl, ti? ireida), elirep Tt? dAAo? dXXw
B
ep.avrov
StaAeyeTat j3ovX6p,evos etSeVat auTO tovto irepl
otov Aoyo? earl, /cat efrat tovtcov evam diw
6
e/x.e
/cat ae.
e
ropr. Tt ow
ai
877, Ecd/cpaTes;
2n. 'Eya> epal w. tt)v oVo ttjs prjTopucfjs
e'ya)
Treidco, tls ttot' ecrTiv rjv 011 Xeyeis Kal irepl
r)
278
GORGIAS
gorg. A thing, Socrates, which in truth is the
greatest good, and a cause not merely of freedom
to mankind at large, but also of dominion to single
persons in their several cities.
soc. Well, and what do you call it ?
gorg. I call it the ability to persuade with speeches
either judges in the law courts or statesmen in the
council-chamber or the commons in the Assembly
or an audience at any other meeting that may be
held on public affairs. And I tell you that by
virtue of this power you will have the doctor as your
slave, and the trainer as your slave ; your money-
getter will turn out to be making money not for
himself, but for another, in fact for you, who are
able to speak and persuade the multitude.
soc. I think now, Gorgias, you have come very
near to showing us the art of rhetoric as you conceive
it, and if I at all take your meaning, you say that
rhetoric is a producer of persuasion, and has therein
its whole business and main consummation. Or
can you tell us of any other function it can have
beyond that of effecting persuasion in the minds
of an audience ?
gorg. None at all, Socrates ; your definition
seems to me satisfactory ; that is the main substance
of the art.
soc. Then listen, Gorgias : I, let me assure you,
for so I persuade myself if ever there was a man
who debated with another from a desire of knowing
the truth of the subject discussed, I am such a
man ; and so, I trust, are you.
gorg. Well, what then, Socrates ?
soc. I will now tell you. What the real nature
of the persuasion is that you speak of as resulting
279
PLATO
(Lvtwojv irpayp.dTan> earl Treidco, p,ev efi
oa<f>u>s
la9' oti ovk oiSa, ov fjL7)V aAA viroirrevat ye rjv

olp.al ae Xeyeiv Kal irepl toy oiioev p.evToi rjrrov
eprjaop-ai ae, riva irore Xeyeis tt\v ireidu) rr)v dird
G tv)s prjTopiKrjs Kal irepl tivojv avrr)v elvai. rod
ovv eveKa avros viroirrevcov ae epy)aop.ai, aAA'
hi)
ovk avros Xeyw; ov aov eveKa, aAAa tov Xoyov,
tva ovrw irpoirj, (I>s pi.aXi.OT av 7jp.lv Kara(j>aves
irepl orov Xeyerai. aoi Sokco
el
TTOtot OKoirei yap
oiKaiuis avepcorav ae, wairep av ei ervyyavov ae
epwrwv ris eari tuxv wypd(f>wv ZetJî?, ei p.01
elites oti o to. aia ypdcf>wv, dp' ovk av SiKalws
ae ra 7701a twv Kal
6
r)p6p,7]v aia>i> ypd<j>wv

irov;
ropr. IlaVu ye.
D sn. *Apa oid tovto, oti Kal dXXot elal ,wypd(f>oi
ypd<j)ovres aAAa 77oAAa <2a;
ropr. Nat.
Sn. Et Se ye p,r]oels dXXos Zevî? eypacfie,
r)
koXws av aoi dneKeKpiro

;
ropr.Hws yap ov;

2n. "101 Kal rrepl rrjs prjTopiKrjs elite- irorepov
8r)
aoi So/cei ireidw rroieiv p-qropiKr) p.6vrj Kal

rj
rj
dXXai reyyai; Xeyw Se to roiovSe' ootis SiodoKei

otiovv irpayp.a, irorepov oiodaKei rreidei ov;
8
r)
ropr. Ov Sijra, w HwKpares, aAAa irdvrwv

fxaXiara rrelOei.
sn. IlaAiv enl rwv aiirwv reyywv Xeywfiev
817
E
280
GORGIAS
from rhetoric, and what the matters are with which

persuasion deals, I assure you I do not clearly
understand ; though I may have my suspicions as
to what I suppose you to mean by it, and with what
things you think it deals. But nevertheless I will
ask you what you do mean by the persuasion that
results from rhetoric, and with what matters you
think it deals. Now why is it that, having a
suspicion of my own, I am going to ask you this,
instead of stating it myself ? It is not on your
account, but with a view to the argument, and to such
a progress in it as may best reveal to us the point
we are discussing. Just see if you do not think it
fair of me to press you with my question : suppose
I happened to ask you" what Zeuxis was among
painters, and you said a figure painter," would it
not be fair of me to ask you what sort of figures
he painted, and where ?
goro. Certainly.
soc. Would this be the reason that there are
also other painters who depict a variety of other
figures ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. But if no one besides Zeuxis were a painter,
your answer would have been right ?
gorg. Yes, of course.
soc. Come then, tell me now about rhetoric :
do you think rhetoric alone effects persuasion, or
can other arts do it as well ? I mean, for example,
when a man teaches anything, does he persuade in
his teaching ? Or do you think not ?
gorg. No, to be sure, Socrates, I think he most
certainly does persuade.
soc. Then let us repeat our question with reference
281
PLATO
dpidfirjTiKrj ov SiSdoKei rjp,ds, oaa
877
(Lvirep vvv

rj
can Ta tov dpidfiov, Kal dpidp,rjTiKOS dvdpojTros
;
ropr. Tldvv ye.
Sa. Ovkovv kcu irelOei;
ropr. Nat.
2n. Heidovs dpa hr]fxiovpyos eaTi Kal dpt-
rj
dpvqriK-q.
ropr. OatVerat.
2n. Ovkovv edv tis epwra ij/xa?, iroias ireidovs
Kal 7repl ri, aTtoKpwovp,edd ttov avTtZ on tt}?
SiSaaKaXiKrjs Trjs irepl to dpriov re /cat to irepiTTov
454 daov eorr /cat ray dAAa?
as vvv or) eXeyop.ev
rexyas dirdaas eôp.ev diroSeitjai iretdovs Srjfxiovp-
yovs ovaas Kal rôTtvos Kal irepl o Tf ov;
fj
ropr. Nat.
2fl. Ovk dpa prjTopiKr/ fiovrj ireidovs earl
8r)p,iovpyos.
ropr. 'AXrjdfj Xeyeis.
2fl. 'EttciStj toLvvv ov p.6vr) direpydêTai tovto
to epyov, dXXd Kal dXXai, St/caiajy atairep irepl tov
a>ypd<f>ov p.era tovto eiravepoip.eQ' dv tov XeyovTa,
iroias Treidovs Kal Trjs irepl ri ireidovs
8r)
pSjTopi/a)
r)
ecru Teyyt]; ov SoKei 001 SiKaiov etvai eirav

B
r\
epeadai;
ropr. "E/xoiye.
2n. 'AiroKpivai 8tj, Topyia, Kal aol
<L
eireiZr] ye
So/cet ovrots.
ropr. Taurus toivvv Trjs ireidovs Xeyco,
<L
YiWKpaTes Trjs ev toIs SiKacrTrjpiois Kal ev toIs

,
282
GORGIAS
to the same arts that we spoke of just now : does

not numeration, or the person skilled in numeration,
teach us all that pertains to number ?
gorg. Certainly.
soc. And persuades also ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. So that numeration also is a producer of
persuasion ?
gorg. Apparently.
soc. Then if we
are asked what kind of persuasion,
and dealing with what, we shall reply, I suppose : The
instructive kind, which deals with the amount of
an odd or an even number ; and we shall be able
to demonstrate that all the other arts which we
mentioned just now are producers of persuasion,
and what kind it is, and what it deals with, shall
we not ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Hence rhetoric is not the only producer of
persuasion.
soc. Since then it is not the only one that
achieves this effect, but others can also, we should be
justified in putting this further question to the
speaker, as we did concerning the painter : Then of
what kind of persuasion, and of persuasion dealing
with what, is rhetoric the art ? Or do you not
consider that such a further question would be
justified ?
gorg. Yes, I
do.
soc. Then answer me, Gorgias, since you agree
with me on that.
gorg. Well then, I
mean that kind of persuasion,
Socrates, which you find in the law-courts and in
283
PLATO
aAAot? oÂot?, wonep /cat dpri, eXeyov, Kal rrepX

tovtoiv a eo-rt St'/caid re /cat aSt/ca.
2X1. Kal eya> toiravrrjv ae Xeyeiv
VTrantrevov
tt]v 7rei#a> /cat 7rept rovrojv, a) Yopyla- aAA' JW
/xtj 8avp,d^rfs, edv oXlyov vorepov roiovrov Tt ere
dvipu)p.ai, o So/cet p-ev hrjXov etvai, eyw 8 errav-
C epatrw- oirep yap Xeyui, rov efjs IW/ca rrepaiveaOaL
rov Xoyov epcoru), ov aov eveKa, dXX Iva fir]
edit,(Lp.eQa v-novoovvres irpoapiraêiv aXX-r]X<av to.
Aeyd/zeva, dXXd ov rd oavrov Kara, rfjv {modeoiv
07701? av fiovXr) Trepalvr/s.
ropr. Kat opdcHs ye /xot So/ceis noietv, <3
Scu/cpaTe?.
"Id i. ti
S77
2X1. /cat Tooe emoKeifia>p.e9a. KaXets

p,efj,a07]KevaL;
ropr. KaAtD.
2n. Tt -nemarevKevai
Se';
;
ropr. "Eycoye.
oVepoi' ofo" ravrov So/cet cot etvat p,e[iadr)-
II
D
2X1.
/ceVat /cat iremorevKevai, /cat p,d6rjoi.s /cat maris,

dXXo Tt;
r\
ropr. Hu>Kpares, dXXo.

S>
Oto/xat pêv eyatye,

211.KaAajy yap oter yvdiaj) Se evdevoe. el yap
eari ris,
Sj
Tt? ce epoiro' ap Yopyia, marts'

ifievor/s Kai aXrjdrjs; (f>alr)s av, to? eya> ot/xat.
ropr. Nat.
2X1. Tt Se; emarr]p,T] earl ijfev8r)s /cat dXrjd-qs;
ropr. OuSa/ico?.
2X1. AijAov ap' au1 6Vt ov ravrov ioriv.
dp' aff Burnet 7<ip a5 mss.

1
284
GORGIAS
any public gatherings, as in fact I said just now ;

! and it deals with what is just and unjust.
soc. I, too, I may tell you, had a suspicion that
it was this persuasion that you meant, and as dealing
with those things, Gorgias ; but you must not be
surprised if I ask you by-and-by some such question
as may seem to be obvious, though I persist in it ;
f for, as I say, I ask my questions with a view to an
orderly completion of our argument I am not
aiming at you, but only anxious that we do not fall
into a habit of snatching at each other's words
with a hasty guess, and that you may complete
your own statement in your own way, as the
premises may allow.
f
gorg. And I think you are quite right in doing
so, Socrates.
soc. Come then, let us consider another point. Is
|
"
there something that you call having learnt."
gorg. There is.
" "
soc. And again, having believed ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Then do you think that having learnt and
having believed, or learning and belief, are the
same thing, or different ?
gorg. In my opinion, Socrates, they are different.
j soc. And your opinion is right, as you can prove
in this way : if some one asked you Is there,
Gorgias, a false and a true belief ? you would say,
Yes, I imagine.
gorg. I should.
soc. But now, is there a false and a true knowledge ?
gorg. Surely not.
soc. Soitis evident again that they 1 are not the same .
1
i.e. knowledge and belief.
285
PLATO
ropr.'AXr/Ofj Xeyeis.
E 2n. 'AAAd /xrjv 01 re ye fxep-ad-qKores nenei.-
afievoi elal Kal ol rremarevKores .
ropr. "Eori ravra.
2n. BouAet oSv 8vo etSrj 9d>/j,ev neiOovs, ro fiev
mar iv rrape)(op-evov dvev rov eiSeVat, ro o ern-
arr\pvr)v;
ropr. IldVu ye.
2n. Yiorepav prjropiKrj rreiQut note! ev
ovv rj
oiKaarrjpiois re Kal rots dXXot,s oÂot? nepl rd)v
oiKaluxv re Kal olSikcov; ro mareveiv ylyver ai
el;
rjs
avei) rou eioevai e ij? to etoevai;
rj
ro
rjs
TOPr. on.
e
AfjXov Srjnov, cS YidiKpares
,
mareveiv .
455 2fl. 'H prjropiKrj dpa, <bs eoiKe, neidovs 8"qp.iovp-
yos eari marevriKrjs dXX' ov 8t.8aaKaXiKrjs nepl
,
ro Sikcliov re Kal ASlkov.

ropr. Nat.
2fi. OvS' dpa StSaor/âAiKO? o prjratp earl 8t,Ka-
arrjpiatv re Kal rwv dXXayv 6)(Xwv oiKaiojv re nepi
Kal dSi'/ccuv, dAAd neiariKOS p.6vov. ov ydp Srjnov
8vvairo roaovrov ev 6Xt.yu> xpova)
y*
6\kov <*i>
8i8dcu outo> fieydXa npdyp,ara.

ropr. Ov 8rjra.
Sn. Oepe 8rj, lhaip,ev ri irore Kal Xeyop,ev nepl
rrjg prjroptKrjs' eytl) fiev ydp rot. ovB avros nu)
B
hvvafiai Karavofjaai o ri Xeyat. orav nepc Larpwv

aipeaews rrj noXet. avXXoyos nepi vavnrjydiv
fj
rj
rj t]
nepldXXov rivos 8rjfi.iovpyt.Kov e9vovs, dXXo ri

rare prjroptKos ov avfifiovXevaei SfjXov yap on
6
ev eKaarrj alpeoet, rov re^yiKdyrarov Set aipetauai.

ov8' orav reiîbv nepl ocKo8op,rjaews Xt,/j.eva>v
rj
286
GORGIAS
soc. But yet those who have learnt have been
persuaded, as well as those who have believed.
gorg. That is so.
soc. Then would you have us assume two forms
of persuasion one providing belief without know
ledge, and the other sure knowledge ?
gorg. Certainly.
soc. Now which kind of persuasion is it that
rhetoric creates in law courts or any public meeting
on matters of right and wrong ? The kind from
which we get belief without knowledge, or that
from which we get knowledge ?
gorg. Obviously, I presume, Socrates, that from
which we get belief.
soc. Thus rhetoric, it seems, is a producer of
persuasion for belief, not for instruction in the matter
of right and wrong.
gorg. Yes.
soc. And so the rhetorician's business is not to
instruct a law court or a public meeting in matters
of right and wrong, but only to make them believe ;
since, I take it, he could not in a short while instruct
such a mass of people in matters so important.
gorg. No, to be sure.
soc. Come then, let us see what actually is our
account of rhetoric : for I confess I am not yet
able to distinguish what my own account of it is.
When the city holds a meeting to appoint doctors
or shipbuilders or any other set of craftsmen, there
is no question then, is there, of the rhetorician
giving advice ? And clearly this is because in each
appointment we have to elect the most skilful
person. Again, in a case of building walls or con
287
PLATO
KaTaoKevfjs r/ veaipiaiv, dXX' ol apîTeKToves' ouS'

av otov OTpo.TT)ywv alpeoetos rrepi fj T<Ujeu>s tivos
C rrpos TroXep,iovs r) ^copiau* KaraXfjtfiews crvp-fiovAr)
fj, aXX' ol <TTpa.Tr)yiKol Tore ovpôvXevaovaw ol
,
prjTopmol Se ov- ttcos Xeyeis, to Yopyia, to.
7]
Toiavra; eTreiSrj yap avros re <f>r)s prjratp etvai Kal
aXXovs Ttoielv prjTopiKovs, ev eyei to, rfjs ofjs
rexyrjs Trapa oov Trvvdaveodai. Kal epe vvv vopiaov
Kal to oov cmev&ew lows yap Kal Tvy\dvei tis
tlov evSov ovtlov paOr/Tfjs oov fiovX6p.evos yeveuOai,
cos eyd> Twas o-êSw Kal avxyovs aloddvop,ai, ot
D
taws aur)(wotVT av oe dvepeodat- vit efiov ovv

avepo)TLop,evos vopiaov Kal vtt' eKeivcov dvepioTa-
oQar rt rjfilv, lo Yopyia, eoTai, edv aoi crwLop,ev;
Tte.pi tlvlov tjj noXei ovpBovXevew otoi re eaop,eOa;
rroTepov 77epi SiKaiov povov Kal dSl,Kov Kal Trepi
r)
8rj
cov vvv ScuKpaTT]? eXeyev; Treipio ovv avrols

anoKptveaOai.
roPr. 'AAA' eyu>Treipdoopai, 10 HcoKpaTes,
001
oa<j>Los drtoKaXvipai ttjv ttjs prjTopiKrjs 8vvap.1v
d-naaav avros yap KaXws vfyryyrjoLo . otada yap
otJttov ore rd veatpia rauTa Kal rd reiîj rd 'A0rj-
E
vaia>v Kai tlov XipevLOV KaTaoKevq eK ttjs

r)
ep.iaroKXovs avp.fSovXfjs yeyove, rd e/c ttjs

8
HepiKXeovs, dXX' ovk k tlov hrjpiovpycov .
Sfl. AeyeTai TavTa, 10 Yopyia, Trepi e/iiaro-

KXeovs' YiepiKXeovs Se Kal avros tJkovov ore
avveBovXevev rjplv Trepi too 8td peaov Tei\ovs.
Built about 440 b.c. between the two walls built in

1
456 b.c, one connecting the Piraeus, and the other Phalerum,
with Athens. The " middle wall " ran parallel to the former,
and secured from hostile attack a narrow strip of land
288
GORGIAS
structing harbours or arsenals, our only advisers are

the master-builders ; or in consulting on the appoint
ment of generals, or on a manoeuvre against the
enemy, or on a military occupation, it is the general
staff who will then advise us, and not the rhetoricians.
Or what do you say, Gorgias, to these instances ?
For as you claim to be an orator yourself and to
make orators of others, it is proper to inquire of
you concerning your own craft. And here you must
regard me as furthering your own interest : for
it is quite likely that some one within these walls
has a wish to become your pupil indeed I fancy
I perceive more than one, yes, a number of them,
who, perhaps, would be ashamed to press you with
questions. So, when you are being pressed with
mine, consider that you are being questioned by
"
them as well : What shall we get, Gorgias, by
coming to hear you ? On what matters shall we
be enabled to give advice to the state ? Will it be
only on right and wrong, or on those things besides
which Socrates was mentioning just now ?
"
So
try to give them an answer.
gorg. Well, I will try, Socrates, to reveal to you
clearly the whole power of rhetoric : and in fact
you have correctly shown the way to it yourself.
You know, I
suppose, that these great arsenals
and walls of Athens, and the construction of your
harbours, are due to the advice of Themistocles, and
in part to that of Pericles, not to your craftsmen.
soc. So we are told, Gorgias, of Themistocles ;
and as to Pericles, I
heard him myself when he was
advising us about the middle wall.1
between Athens and the Piraeus. Socrates was born in
469 b.c.
vol. v u 289
PLATO
ropr. Kcu orav ye tis alpeais fj oil
8r)
456 <Lv
eXeyes, HioKpares, opas on ol prjropes eiaiv oi
c5
avp,ôvXevovres /cat ol viKcovres ras yv<hp.as rtepi
TOVTCOV.
5fl. Tavra Kai Yopyia, rraXai

davp,dajv, co
eparra) rjris rrore 8wap.ls eon rfjs prjropiKrjs.
rj
8aip,ovla yap ns ep,ovye Kara<f>alverai ro pueyedos
OVTUt OKOTtOVVTL.
roPr. Ei irdvra ye ei8eir]s, co HidiKpares, on cos
enos elrrelv dndoas ras 8vvdp.eis ovXXafiovoa v<f>
avrfj p,eya 8e aoi reKp,rjpiov iroXXaKis

B
eêi. epdi-
ydp rj8rj eycoye p,era rov d8eX<f>ov /cat p.erd rmv
dXXiav larpcbv elaeXOcbv rrapd nva ru>v Kap.v6vro>v
ov\l edeXovra <f>dpp,a.Kov melv rep.elv kclvocli

rj
rj
r)
irapaoxelv ru> larpw, ov 8vvap,evov rov larpov
rreloai, eyw erreicra, ovk dXXrj re^yrj rfj pr/ropiKfj. rj
<f>T)puKai els rroXiv

8e 07777 ftovXei eXdovra pr/ropiKOV
dv8pa Kai larpov, 8eot, Xoyto 8iayajvleo~9ai ev
el
eKKXrjolq iv aXX<t> nvl avXXoyw, ortorepov Set

r)
larpov, oi8ap.ov dv <f>avrjvai

alpeOfjvat. rov larpov,
aAA' alpedfjvai dv rov elrretv 8vvarov,
el
fiovXoiro.
C
Kai Trpos dXXov ye 8rjp,iovpydv ovnvaovv dyco-

el
vlôiro, rreicreiev airdv eXeoBai

dv p-qropiKOS
6
p,aXXov dXXos oonoovv ov ydp eari rrepl orov

rj
ovk dv mdavwrepov enrol p-qropiKOs dXXos

6
rj
oonoovv rcov 8rjp,iovpya>v ev rrXrjdei. p,ev oSv

rj
8wap,is roaavrr] earl /cat roiavrq rrjs Teyy-qs'

oel p,evroi, ^lOJKpares, rfj prjropiKrj j(prja8ai
cS
290
GORGIAS
gorg. So whenever there is an election of such
persons as you were referring to, Socrates, you see
it is the orators who give the advice and get resolu
tions carried in these matters.
soc. That is just what surprises me, Gorgias,
and has made me ask you all this time what in the
world the power of rhetoric can be. For, viewed
in this light, its greatness comes over me as some
thing supernatural.
gorg. Ah yes, if you knew all, Socrates,- how it
comprises in itself practically all powers at once !
And I will tell you a striking proof of this : many
and many a time have I gone with my brother or
other doctors to visit one of their patients, and found
him unwilling either to take medicine or submit to
the surgeon's knife or cautery ; and when the
doctor failed to persuade him I succeeded, by no
other art than that of rhetoric. And I further
declare that, if a rhetorician and a doctor were to
enter any city you please, and there had to contend
in speech before the Assembly or some other meeting
as to which of the two should be appointed physician,
you would find the physician was nowhere, while
the master of speech would be appointed if he
wished. And if he had to contend with a member
of any other profession whatsoever, the rhetorician
would persuade the meeting to appoint him before
anyone else in the place : for there is no subject
on which the rhetorician could not speak more
persuasively than a member of any other profession
whatsoever, before a multitude. So great, so strange,
is the power of this art. At the same time, Socrates,
our use of rhetoric should be like our use of any
291
PLATO
D oiotrep rfj dAAjj Trdor) dywvla.. /cat yap rfj dXAj]

aywviq. ov tovtov eveKa Set irpos d-navTas xprjodai
avdpwirovs, otl ep,ade TTVKTeveiv re /cat TrayKpa-
Ttdetv /cat ev ottXols p,dxeo8at., ware Kpeirrtav
elvai /cat cfctAoov /cat iÔpajv ov tovtov eveKa tovs
<f>t,Aovs Set Ti/7rretv ouSe /cevretv re /cat aTro/CTtwwat.
ouSe' ye p.a At'a eav rt? ets TraXaiOTpav (f>oiTTjo-ag ,
ev eâw to awp,a /cat ttvktikos yevop.evos, eirena
tov rraTepa tvttt"q /cat ttjv /xijTepa 77 aAAov Ttva.
tcov ot/ceiotw 77 Tcov <f)iX(x)v, ov tovtov eve/ca Set toj)?
E 7ratSoT/3ij8a? /cat toi)s eV rot? OTrAot? StSacr/coj/Tas'
p,dxeo6at p.iaelv re /cat e/c/JdAAetv e/c tcDv TrdAea)!;.
e/cetvot p.ev ydp irapehooav em tw St/catw? \pfjadai.
tovtois npos tovs TroXep,iovs /cat TOV? dSl/COWTaS',
457 dfxvvop,evovs , fir/ VTrdpxovras' ol Se p,eTaorpe-
ipavTes xP^>VTai rfj ivxvt KaL Tf] r^XvV OVK op9d)s.
ovkovv ol StSaâvre? Trovrjpol, ouSe 17 Texyf] outs
atrta ouVe Trovqpd tovtov eveKa iaTiv, dAA' ot /x.7)
6 ovtos St)
Xpu>p,evoi, ot/xat, 6p9a>s. Xoyos /cat
7re/3t ttjj
prjTopLKrjs. 8vv<xt6s p,ev ydp vpos dnavTas
ecrTLV prJTtop /cat Trept TravTOS Xeyeiv, u>me
6
mdavioTepos ewai ev toIs TrXrfieoiv ep-fipayv Trepl

otov av jSoi/ArjTat- dAA' ouSeV Tt p.SAXov tovtov
B
eveKa Set oi>re tou? laTpovs ttjv 86av d<f>aipeZod ai

OTt SwaiTO dv tovto TTOirjoai ovre tovs dXXovs
By)p.Lovpyovs, dAAd Si/catto? /cat T77 pjjTopiKrj
Xpfjodai, cooTTep /cat ttj dycovlq. edv Se, ot/xat,
prjTopiKOS yevop,evos tis Kara Tavrrj tt) 8vvdp,ei
/cat ttJ Teyyr\ dSiK-fj, ov t6v StSdfavTa Set pucreZv
<,
Te /cat eKpdXXeiv e/c tow 7rdAea>v. eKelvos p*ev

ydp em St/cata XPeâ ifOpÔKtv,
8'
evavriws
C
XpyJTai. tov ovv ovk opddJs xpouyxevov fjnaelv

292
GORGIAS
other sort of exercise.For other exercises are not

to be used against all and sundry, just because one
has learnt boxing or wrestling or fighting in armour
so 'well as to vanquish friend and foe alike : this
gives one no right to strike one's friends, or stab
them to death. Nor, in all conscience, if a man
took lessons at a wrestling-school, and having got
himself into good condition and learnt boxing he
proceeded to strike his father and mother, or some
other of his relations or friends, should that be a
reason for hating athletic trainers and teachers
of fighting in armour, and expelling them from our
cities. For they imparted their skill with a view
to its rightful use against enemies and wrongdoers,
in self-defence, not provocation ; whereas the others
have perverted their strength and art to an improper
use. So it is not the teachers who are wicked, nor
is the art either guilty or wicked on this account,
but rather, to my thinking, those who do not use
it properly. Now the same argument applies also
to rhetoric : for the orator is able, indeed, to speak
against every one and on every question in such
a way as to win over the votes of the multitude,
practically in any matter he may choose to take
up : but he is no whit the more entitled to deprive
the doctors of their credit, just because he could
do so, or other professionals of theirs ; he must use
his rhetoric fairly, as in the case of athletic exercise.
And, in my opinion, if a man becomes a rhetorician
and then uses this power and this art unfairly, we
ought not to hate his teacher and cast him out of
our cities. For he imparted that skill to be used in
all fairness, whilst this man puts it to an opposite
use. Thus it is the man who does not use it aright
293
PLATO
Sikcuov Kal KJ3dX\eiv Kal anoKTivvwcu, aAA' ov
tov SiSdâvra.
2X1. Otfiai, co Yopyia, Kal ak epmeipov elvat
ttoAAwv Aoytov /cat KadeojpaKevai ev avTots to
Toiov8e, on ov paBicos Swavrai nepl 5>v dv ri-
Xeiprjotom BiaAeyeodai 8iopiadp.evoi Trpos dAArjAovs
D Kal p,adovTS Kal 8i8davTes eavTovs, ovtoj 81a-
AveaBai ras ovvovolas, aAA' lav irepi tov dpujnap^r) -
rrjocooi Kal p,r) <f>fj 6 erepos tov eTepov opdeos
Aeyeiv rj p,r) oa<f>cds, xaXenawovai Te Kal Kara.
<f>66vov olovTai tov eavTcov Aeye.iv, <f>iAoviKovvTas
dAA r)TovvTas to TrpoKeifievov ev tco Aoycp'
ov
Kal eviol ye TeAevTWVTes atcr^tora dTraAAaTTOVTai,
AoiSoprjdevTes Te /cat elirovTes Kal aKovoavTes trepl
ocpcdv avTcov ToiavTa,
tovs irapovTas
01a /cat
E dxBeodai vjrep o<f>a>v avrGtv, oti toiovtoiv dvdpcoirojv
-qglcooav d/cpoarai yeveadai. tov IVe/ca Aeyco
8t)
TavTa; on vvv e/xot 80/cefc ov ov irdw aKoAovda

Aeyeiv o\>8e ovp.<j>cova ots to irpcoTov eAeyes irepl
ttjs pT]TopiKrjs . <f>ofiovp,ai ovv SieAeyxeiv ae, p.y\
/ne VTToAdfijjs ov npos to irpdyp,a cf>iAoviKovvra
Aeyeiv tov KaTacpaves yeveadai, dAAd irpos ae.
458 eyeb ovv, /cat ov el
el
p,ev tu>v dvdpojTrcov tovirep

/cat eya>, r)oea>s av ae BiepojTcorjv
el
8e pvq, ecor/v
av. eyco oe tivcov elp.i; tiov r)Secos p-ev av eAeyx~
ti
8'
el el
OevTOiv, p,r) aAr/Bes Aeyto, r)8ea>s av eAey-

dvTO>v, tis ti p,r) dArjdes Aeyoi, ovk dr/Seorepov
p.h>T av eAeyxdevTtov eAey^dvTtov p.ei,ov yap
rj
avTO dyadov r)yovp,ai, oatpnep p.eit,ov dyadov

294
GORGIAJS
who deserves to be hated and expelled and put to

death, and not his teacher.
soc. I expect, Gorgias, that you as well as I have
had no small practice in arguments, and have
observed the following fact about them, that it is
not easy for people to define to each other the
matters which they take in hand to discuss, and to
make such exchange of instruction as will fairly
bring their debate to an end : no, if they find that
some point is in dispute between them, and one of
them says that the other is speaking incorrectly
or obscurely, they are annoyed and think the remark
comes from jealousy of themselves, and in a spirit
of contention rather than of inquiry into the matter
proposed for discussion. In some cases, indeed,
they end by making a most disgraceful scene, with
such abusive expressions on each side that the rest
of the company are vexed on their own account
that they allowed themselves to listen to such
fellows. Well, what is my reason for saying this ?
It is because your present remarks do not seem to
me quite in keeping or accord with what you said
at first about rhetoric. Now I am afraid to refute
you, lest you imagine I am contentiously neglecting
the point and its elucidation, and merely attacking
you. I therefore, if you are a person of the same
sort as myself, should be glad to continue questioning
you : if not, I can let it drop. Of what sort am I ?
One of those who would be glad to be refuted if
I say anything untrue, and glad to refute anyone
else who might speak untruly ; but just as glad,
mind you, to be refuted as to refute, since I regard
the former as the greater benefit, in proportion as
it is a greater benefit for oneself to be delivered
295
PLATO
eoTtv avrov dTraXXayfjvac kclkov tov fieyiarov f)

dXXov aTraXXdâi. ovSev yap otfiai tooovtov KaKOV
eirai avdpwrrw, oaov 86a tfiev8r)s rrepl <Lv Tvyxcwei
B vvv rfpuv 6 Xoyos wv. el p.ev ovv Kal <jv <f>j]s
tolovtos etvai, oiaXeywp,eda. el oe /cat So/cet
Xpfjvat, lav, ewp,ev 77877 xalpeiv Kal 8ia\vcop,ev tov
Xoyov.
ropr. 'AAAd ^77^1 p,kv eywye, w HwKpares, /cat
avTOS tolovtos etvai olov ov v<f>i]yfj- laws p,evTOt
Xpfjv ivvoelv Kal to twv rrapovTwv. TtaXai yap
tol, Trplv Kal vp,as eXdelv, iy<l> tois rrapovai ttoXXo.
eireoei^dp.rjv, Kal vvv loots iroppw arroTevovpiev, rjv

C oiaXeywp,eda. OKOirelv ovv XPV Kai TO tovtwv,
p,rj Tivas avTwv KaTeôpev j3ovXop,evovs Tt Kal
dXXo TrpaTTeiv.
XAIP.Tov p,ev dopvfiov, w Yopyia re /cat to-
KpaTes, avrol d/couere tovtwv twv dvopwv, fiovXo-
p.evwv aKoveiv, edv Tt XeyrjTe' epol 8' ovv Kal avTut
p.r) ye.voi.TO Toaavrrj dcrôAt'a, aiore toiovtwv
Xoywv Kal ovtw Xeyop,evwv a<f>ep,evu> Trpovpyiai-
Tepov Tt yeveaOai dXXo TrpaTTeiv.
D KAAA. N77 tovs Oeovs, w Xaipe<f>wv, /cat {lev
877
/cat avTOS ttoXXois 77877 Xoyois Trapayevop.evos ovk

ovtws wairep vwf wot
el
oTb" TTwrroTe -rjaOrjv

ep,oiye, Kav tt)v r)p.epav oXrjv edeXr/Te oiaXeyeadai,
XapieioOe.
2n. 'AAAd p,i]v, w KaAAi'/cAety, to ep.bv ovSev
y
KwXvei, elrrep eOeXei Yopyias.

296
GORGIAS
from the greatest evil than to deliver some one

else. For I consider that a man cannot suffer any
evil so great as a false opinion on the subjects of
our actual argument. Now if you say that you
too are of that sort, let us go on with the conversa
tion ; but if you think we had better drop it, let us
have done with it at once and make an end of the
discussion.
gorg. Nay, I too, Socrates, claim to be of the sort
you indicate ; though perhaps we should have taken
thought also for the wishes of our company. For,
let me tell you, some time before you and your
friend arrived, I gave the company a performance
of some length ; and if we now have this conversa
tion I expect we shall seriously protract our sitting.
We ought, therefore, to consider their wishes as
well, in case we are detaining any of them who may
want to do something else.
chaer. You hear for yourselves, Gorgias and
Socrates, the applause by which these gentlemen
show their desire to hear anything you may say ;
for my own part, however, Heaven forbid that I
should ever be so busy as to give up a discussion so
interesting and so conducted, because I found it
more important to attend to something else.
call. Yes, by all that's holy, Chaerephon ; and
let me say, moreover, for myself that among the
many discussions which I have attended in my time
I doubt if there was one that gave me such delight
as this present one. So, for my part, I shall count
it a favour even if you choose to continue it all day
long.
soc. Why, Callicles, I assure you there is no
hindrance on my side, if Gorgias is willing.
297
PLATO
ropr. Alaypov to Xoittov,
S17
co TiCOKpares,
yiyverai ep.e ye p.rj edeXeiv, avrov errayyeiXapievov
ri ris dXX' 8oKei rovroial,
el
epcorav
E
fiovXerai.
6
hiaXeyov re ko.1 epcora o ri fiovXei.
2n. "Atcove h-q, d> Topyia, a 9avp,dco ev roZs
Xeyop.evois vtto aov' tacos yap roi aov dpdcos
Xeyovros eyco ovk dpdcos viroXap.fidvco . prjropiKov
<j>fjs TTOieiv Old? r etvai, edv tis fSovX-qrai 7rapa
aov p.avddveiv
;
ropr. Not.
2n. OvKOVV TTepl TtdvTOiV COOT ev o^Xcp mdavov
elvai, ov oiSdoKovra dXXd Treldovra;
459 ropr. Yldvv p.ev ovv.
EAeyeV rot vvv on rov vyieivov
8rj
2n. koX nepl

rov larpov mdavcorepos earai pr)rcop.
6
ropr. Kai yap eXeyov, ev ye oÂoj.

SO. Ovkovv to ev dyXcp rovro earw, ev rots p.r\
eioooiv; ov yap Srfnov ev ye rols eiSdoi toi;
larpov mdavcorepos earai.
ropr. 'AXrjdfj Xeyeis.
sn. Ovkovv elirep tov larpov mdavcorepos ear ai,
rov elhoros mdavcorepos yiyverai.;
ropr. Hdvv ye.
2n. Ovk larpos ye cov yap;
ij
ropr. Nat.
B
2n. '0 Se p.rj larpos ye Stfirov dvem.arrip.cov cov

o larpos em.arrjp.cov.
ropr. ArjXov on.
298
GORGIAS
gorg. After that, Socrates, it would be shameful
indeed if I were unwilling, when it was I
who
challenged everybody to ask what questions they
pleased. But if our friends here are so minded, go
on with the conversation and ask me anything
you like.
soc. Hark you then, Gorgias, to what surprises
me in your statements : to be sure, you may possibly
be right, and I may take your meaning wrongly.
You say you are able to make a rhetorician of any
man who chooses to learn from you ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Now, do you mean, to make him carry
conviction to the crowd on all subjects, not by
teaching them, but by persuading ?
gorg. Certainly I do.
soc. You were saying just now, you know, that
even in the matter of health the orator will be more
convincing than the doctor.
gorg. Yes, indeed, I was meaning, to the crowd.'
" to " "
soc. And the crowd means to the ig
"
norant ? For surely, to those who know, he will
not be more convincing than the doctor.
soc. And if he is to be more convincing than the
doctor, he thus becomes more convincing than he
who knows ?
gorg. Certainly.
soc. Though not himself a doctor, you agree ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. But he who is not a doctor is surely with
out knowledge of that whereof the doctor has
knowledge.
gorg. Clearly.
299
PLATO
2n. '0
ovk eiSto? dpa rod etSoros ev ovk elhocri
mdavoJTepos carat, orav 6 p-qrcop tov larpov
TTiOavdnepos 17. tovto o"u/x/?atVet 7) aAAo ti;
TOPr. Tovto evravBd ye avp,fiaivei.
2n. Ovkovv /cat 77/3i ray aAAa? dndoas re^va?
(vcravrcos eêt o prjrcup Kal 17 prjTopiKrj- avrd piev
C Ta vpay/xaTa oioev Set at5rr)i' etSeVat ottcjs eêt,
fir))(avrjv Se nm neidovs evprjKevai, atari <f>aiveoda.i
roig ovk et'Sdcri /j,SAXov etSeVat tojv eloorcov.
ropr. Ovkovv TroWrj paarcovr], cS Sco/fpares',
ylyverai, p,adovra to? aAAa? rexyas, dAAa /ttav
p,rj
Tavrrjv, p.rjSev e\aTTOva9ai tcov SrjfiiovpyoJv ;
Sn. Ei //.ev iXarTovrai 77 p,r) eXarrovTai 6 prjTcop
t6~>v dXXojv Sta to ovtojs ^xeiv, a-vriKa eitiaKe-
i[i6p,e6a, idv ti tj/xiv -rrpos Xoyov fj' vvv Se Tooe

irporepov OKei/jojp-eda, dpa Tvyxdvei nepl to St/catov
D Kal to doiKov Kal to alaxpov Kal to KaXov Kal
dyadov Kal KaKov ovtojs exojv prjTopiKos ojs nepl
6
to vyieivov Kal vepl Ta d'AAa a>v at dXXai Te^vat,

aura p.ev ovk el8u>s, ti ayadov Tt KaKov eoriv rj
t)
Tt *caA6y ti alaxpov oiKaiov doiKov, TreiOdj

rj
rj
7)
Se 77e/3i auTajv iJ.ep.rjxavq/j.evos, aiore SoKelv eloevai

ou/c etoaj? ev owe etooc/i p,aAAov tov eiooTOs;
r\
avdyK-q eloevai, Kal Set Tavra

E
Trpoemcrrdp,evov
d</>iKecr6ai irapd ere TW p,dXXovTa p.aQiqoeodai ttjv

o ttj? prjTopiKrjs StSaovca-
el
prjTopiKrjV Se jutJ, cri)

;
Xos tovtojv p,ev ovoev StSaêt? to)/ dtjjiKvovp.evov

ou yap aw epyov noi-qoeis ev toi? ttoWois
S
300
GORGIAS
soc. So he who does not know will be more con
vincing to those who do not know than he who
knows, supposing the orator to be more convincing
than the doctor. Is that, or something else, the
consequence ?
ooro. In this case it does follow.
soc. Then the case is the same in all the other
arts for the orator and his rhetoric : there is no
need to know the truth of the actual matters, but
one merely needs to have discovered some device
of persuasion which will make one appear to those who
do not know to know better than those who know.
goro. Well, and is it not a great convenience,
Socrates, to make oneself a match for the professionals
by learning just this single art and omitting all the
others ?
soc. Whether the orator is or is not a match for
the rest of them by reason of that skill, is a question
we shall look into presently, if our argument so
requires : for the moment let us consider first
whether the rhetorician is in the same relation to
what is just and unjust, base and noble, good and
bad, as to what is healthful, and to the various
objects of all the other arts ; he does not know
what is really good or bad, noble or base, just or
unjust, but he has devised a persuasion to deal
with these matters so as to appear to those who,
like himself, do not know to know better than he
who knows. Or is it necessary to know, and must
anyone who intends to learn rhetoric have a previous
knowledge of these things when he comes to you ?
Or if not, are you, as the teacher of rhetoric, to
teach the person who comes to you nothing about
them for it is not your business but only to
301
PLATO
nSev
SoKetv dyadov elvai ovk ovtcl; t) to napdnav o&x
olds re ear] StSaât avrov rr/v prjropiK'qv, av /j.rj
TrpoeiSfj rrepl tovtcov ttjv dXtfdeiav ; 7] ttcos to.
460 rotavra exel-> <* Topyia; /cat irpos Aid's, ajcnrep
dpri elites, d7roKaXvtpas rrjs prjropiKrjs elne tis
ito6 r\ vvap.LS eariv.
ropr. 'AAA' iyd> p,ev olp,ai, ai Ha>Kpares, edv
Tvxfl p-v] etoa>s, /cat ravra Trap' ep,ov p,aO-qaerai.
%n. "Eê Stj- koXws yap Xeyeis. edvnep prjro-
piKov av riva TToirjcrrjs, dvdyKT] avrov etSeVat rd
St/cata Kai ra aSt/ca rjroi. irporepov ye rj vcrrepov
ftadovra irapa aov.
ropr. Hdvv ye.
B 2Q. Tt ofiv; 6 ra rexroviKa p,ep.adr)K<bs reicro-
vikos, 7) ov;
ropr. Nat.
sa. Ovkovv /cat 6 ra /xovax/ca p.ovaiKOs;
ropr. Nat.
5n. Kai 6 ra. tarpt/ca. larpiKos, /cat -raAAa outco
/caTa tw aurov Aoyov, d p,ep,adrjKws enaara Totou-
rdy eariv otov ij emarrjpir] exaarov dnepydêrai;
ropr. II avu ye.
2n. 0i5/coui> /card rovrov rov Aoyov /cat c to
St/cata p,ep,adr)K<j)s St'/cato?;
ropr. IIavTa)s StJttou.
2n. '0 Se St'/cato? St/cata 7rou rtpdrrei.
ropr. Nat.
C 2fi. 05/cow avay/crj tov [pijTopt/cov oiKaiov
etvai, rov Se]1 St/cato^ fiovXeadai St/cata npdrreiv;
1
pr/TopiKbv oiKtuov ebiau, t&v Si seel. Hirschig.
302
GORGIAS
make him appear in the eyes of the multitude to

know things of this sort when he does not know, and
to appear to be good when he is not ? Or will you
be utterly unable to teach him rhetoric unless he
previously knows the truth about these matters ?
Or what is the real state of the case, Gorgias ?
For Heaven's sake, as you proposed just now,
draw aside the veil and tell us what really is the
function of rhetoric.
gorg. Why, I suppose, Socrates, if he happens
not to know these things he will learn them too
from me.
soc. Stop there : I am glad of that statement.
If you make a man a rhetorician he must needs
know what is just and unjust either previously or
by learning afterwards from you.
gorg. Quite so.
soc. Well now, a man who has learnt building is
a builder, is he not ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. And he who has learnt music, a musician ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Then he who has learnt medicine is a medical
man, and so on with the rest on the same principle ;
anyone who has learnt a certain art has the qualifica
tion acquired by his particular knowledge ?
gorg. Certainly.
soc. And so, on this principle, he who has learnt
what is just is just ?
gorg. Absolutely, I presume.
soc. And the just man, I suppose, does what is
just.
gorg. Yes.
soc. Now the just man must wish to do what is just ?
303
PLATO
ropr. QaLveral ye.
2ft. OvSeTrore dpa fiovXqoerai o ye 8i.Ka.tos
aoiKeZv.
ropr. 'AvdyKr).
2n. Tov oe pTjropiKov dvdyKrj e/c rod Xoyov
olkcllov etvai.
ropr. Nat.
2n. OuSeVoTe dpa fiovXrjaerai 6 prjropiKOS
doiKeiv.
ropr. Ov <f>aiverai ye.
2Q. Mep.vrjcrai ovv Xeyutv 6Xiya> rrporepov, on
D 01! Set Tots TraiooTpl/iais eyKaXelv ovo' eKpaXXeiv
e/c ru>v TToXecvv, eav o ttvkttjs tjj ttvktikjj xprjrai
re /cat doiK-fj; ojoavrcos Se ovru) Kal eav 6 prjroop
tjj p-qTopucfj aSt'/ccu?
XPVTal> jLt17 TV oiodavn
eyKaXelv p,rjoe eêXavvew e/c rrjs noXecus, dXXd, rep
dSiKovvn /cat ovk opOws xpaifieviv rjj prjropiKij ;
epprjdr] ravra 7)
ov;
ropr. 'Epp-qdrj.
E 2n. Nw oe ye o airos ovros <f>aiverai, 6 p-qro-
piKOS, ovk dv rrore dSt/ojcraj. t} ov;
ropr. OaiVeTai.
2fl. Kat eV rots irpwrois ye, at Yopyla, Xoyois
eXeyero, on rj p-qropiKr) irepl Xoyovs etr) ov tovs
tov apnov /cat irepirrov, aAAa. roiis tov Si/catov
Kal dSiKov rj ydp;
ropr. Nat.
2n. 'Eya/ roivvv aov Tore Tavra
Xeyovros
xmeXafSov, d>s oioeiroT dv elf] rj prfropiKr) doiKov .
rrpayp-a, o y aet rrepi oiKaioovvrjs tovs Xoyovs

TTOieirai- erreiSr] oe dXiyov varepov eXeyes, on 6
304
GORGIAS
gorg. Apparently.
soc. Hence the just man will never wish to act
unjustly ?
gorg. That must needs be so.
soc. But it follows from our statements 1 that the
rhetorician must be just.
gorg. Yes.
soc. Hence the rhetorician will never wish to do
wrong.
gorg. Apparently not.
soc. Then do you remember saying a little while
ago that we ought not to complain against the trainers
or expel them from our cities, if a boxer makes not
merely use, but an unfair use, of his boxing ? So
in just the if
an orator uses his rhetoric
same way,
unfairly, we should not complain against his teacher
or banish him from our city, but the man who does
the wrong and misuses his rhetoric. Was that said
or not ?
gorg. It was.
soc. But now we find that this very person, the
rhetorician, could never be guilty of wrongdoing,
do we not ?
gorg. We do.
soc. And in our first statements, Gorgias, we said
that rhetoric dealt with speech, not on even and odd,
but on the just and unjust, did we not ?
gorg. Yes.
soc. Well then, I supposed at the time when you
were saying this that rhetoric could never be an
unjust thing, since the speeches it made were
always about justice ; but when a little later you
1
i.e. that he must know what is just, and that he who
knows this must be just (see a and b above).
vol. v X 305
PLATO
461 prjTOjp rfj prjropiKrj kov

ooIkcds XPVT> ovrui
davfidaas /cat rjyrjadpevos ov avvdoeiv ra Xeyopueva
eKeivovs evnov rovs Xoyovs, 6Vt el pev Kepoos ijyoto
eivai to eXeyxeodat, wanep iyio, diov etrj Sta-
XeyeoBai, el Se pvf\, eav \alpew varepov Se rjpt,a>v
Kal avros ori aS opuoXo-
Srj
emaKorrovpevoiv opas
yelrai rov prjropiKov dSvvarov elvai dSt/cai? xprfodai,
rfj prjTopiKfj Kal iOeXeiv d8i/ceiv. ravra ovv oirrj
exec, pa rov Kiiva, Yopyla, ovk oXiyrjs
<3
TTore.
B
awovaias early ware Ikclvcos SiaoKei/taoQai.

nnA. oe, co 2jU>Kpares ovroi /cat ov rrepi
1
;
1
rijs pTjropiKrjs
8odeis atairep vvv Xeyeis; otet,
r)
on Yopyias floxvvdr) aot p,rj npooopoXoyrjaat. tov
prjropiKov dvSpa p,fj oiiyl Kal rd Si'/cata elSevai. Kal
rd KaXd Kal ra ayadd, Kal eav p/rj eXdrj ravra
elScus rrap' avrov, avros ScSdêiv, erreira /c
ravnrjs
tacus rrjs dpoXoyias evavriov ti awefir\ ev rots
C
8tj
Xoyois, rovd o ayairas, avros ayaydiv em

roiavra eparrrjpara iirel rlva olei d"napvr\aeaQai
p,r] ov^l Kal airdv eiriaraaOai rd Si'/cata /cat
dXXovs StSdêiv; dXX' els rd roiavra dyew ttoXXtj
aypoiKia cart rovs Xoyovs
sa. Tii KaXXiare IIcDAe, aXXd rot eêmTrjSes
Krcbpeda eralpovs Kal vleis, a>a eWtSdi' avrol
npeafivrepot, yiyvopevoi o<f>aXXcbpeda, rrapovres
vp,els ol vecorepot, eTravopdwre rjpwv rov fiiov /cat
This favourite oath of Socrates was derived from Egypt,

1
where the god Anubis was represented with a dog's head

;
cf. 482 B.
The defective construction of this sentence probably
is
2
306
GORGIAS
told us that the orator might make even an unjust

use of his rhetoric, that indeed surprised me, and
thinking the two statements were not in accord I made
those proposals, that if, like myself, you counted it
a gain to be refuted, it was worth while to have
the discussion, but if not, we had better have done
with it. And now that we have come to examine
the matter, you see for yourself that we agree once
more that it is impossible for the rhetorician to use
his rhetoric unjustly or consent to do wrong Now,
to distinguish properly which way the truth of the
matter lies will require, by the Dog,1 Gorgias, no
short sitting.
pol. How is this, Socrates ? Is that really your
opinion of rhetoric, as you now express it ? Or,
think you, because Gorgias was ashamed not to
admit your point that the rhetorician knows what
is just and noble and good, and will himself teach
these to anyone who comes to him without knowing
them ; and then from this admission I daresay there
followed some inconsistency in the statements made
the result that you are so fond of when it was
yourself who led him into that set of questions ! 2
For who do you think will deny that he has a know
ledge of what is just and can also teach it to others ?
I call it very bad taste to lead the discussion in such
a direction.
soc. Ah, sweet Polus, of course it is for this very
purpose we possess ourselves of companions and
sons, that when the advance of years begins to
make us stumble, you younger ones may be at
hand to set our lives upright again in words as well
intended to mark the agitated manner of Polus in making
his protest.
307
PLATO
ev epyois Kal Xoyois. Kal vvv el ti eycb nal
ev
D Topylas ev rots Xoyois a<f>aXX6p,eda, av irapaiv
enavopdov Si'/caios ' el' Kal eycb edeXco rcov (Lfio-
Xoyqp,evcov el ti aoi ooKet p,rj koXcos cbp,oXoyfjadai,
dvadeadai o tl av av fiovXr], edv fioi ev fj,6vov
(f>vXa.Trrjs .
nnA. Ti tovto Xeyeis;

Sn. TrjV p.aKpoXoylav IlaJAe,
t}v
, co Ka6epr)s,
to npcorov eTTexeipTqaas x/oijo-âi.
fj
nflA. Ti Se; ovk efearai p.01 Xeyeiv onoaa av

/3ovXa>p,at,;
Aeiva
el
2n. Trddois, av
êXriare,
t5
p,evr'
E
'Ad-qvalê dcfuKO/xevos, oS rrjs 'EXXdSos TrXelarrj

earlv eôvala rov Xeyeiv, eVeiTa av evravOa tovtov
/xovos drvxôais . dXXd dvrldes roi- aov p.aKpd
Xeyovros Kai p,r) ideXovTOS to ipcorcop.evov a.770-
462 Kplveadai, oi Seivd av aS eycb ndOoi.p.i,
el
firj eearat
fioi amevai Kal p.rj aKoveiv aov; aXX ei ti K-qorj
rov Xoyov rov elprjpievov Kal eTravopOobaaadai avrov
eXeyov, dvadep.evos o ti croi
Srj
fiovXei, coonep vvv

8oKei, ev tu> fiepei epcorcov re Kal epcorcop,evos
,
coanep eyiL re Kal Topylas, eXeyxe re Kal eXeyôv.
(f>f]s yap hrjTTOV Kal av eTrlaraadai direp Topylas
ov;
r)
ima. "Eywye.
2n. Ovkovv Kal av KeXeveis aavrov epcorav
eKaarore o ti av ns /JouAijtcu, cos emarap.evos
aTTOKplveodai
;
nnA. Yidvv p.ev oSv.

Kai rovrcov o-norepov /JouAei Tiolei,
817
SO. vvv
B
ipcbra diTOKplvov.
r/
308
GORGIAS
as deeds. So now if Gorgias and I are stumbling

in our words, you are to stand by and set us up again
it is only your duty ; and for my part I am willing

to revoke at your pleasure anything that you think

has been wrongly admitted, if you will kindly
observe one condition.
pol. What do you mean by that ?
soc. That you keep a check on that lengthy way
of speaking, Polus, which you tried to employ at first.
pol. Why, shall I not be at liberty to say as much
I
as like ?
soc. It would indeed be a hard fate for you,
my excellent friend, if having come to Athens,
where there is more freedom of speech than any
where in Greece, you should be the one person
there who could not enjoy it. But as a set-off to
I
that, ask you if it would not be just as hard on me,
while you spoke at length and refused to answer
my questions, not to be free to go away and avoid
listening to you. No, if you have any concern for the
argument that we have carried on, and care to set
it on its feet again, revoke whatever you please, as
I suggested just now ; take your turn in questioning
and being questioned, like me and Gorgias ; and
thus either refute or be refuted. For you claim, I
understand, that you yourself know all that Gorgias
knows, do you not ?
pol. I do.
soc. Then are you with him also in bidding us ask
at each point any questions we like of you, as one
who knows how to answer ?
pol. Certainly I am.
soc. So now, take whichever course you like : either
put questions, or answer them.
309
PLATO
IIQA. AAAi irouqoco ravra.

kcu [jloi diroiepivai,
a> 2a)#cpaTS" erreiorf Topylas diropetv aoi So/cei
Trept. ttjs pjp-opiKTJs, ai) avrrjv Tiva <frr]s elvai;
3a. *Apa eparr&s rjvriva reyyrjv <frr)p.l elvai;
nnA. c/yarye.
3a. OuSe/u'a epxtiye Soke?, to IltoAe, ais ye irpos
ae raXqdrj elpfjodai.
nnA. 'AAAa ti croi So/cei 17 prp-opiicfj elvai;
C 2Q. Ilpay/ia otJ woi^crai tc^vtjv ev t<5
o îy?
avyypdp.pari o eydi evayxos dveyvwv.
nr.A. Ti tovto Xeyeis;
3a. 'Ep.ireipiav eyoyye Ttva.
nnA. 'E/i7reipia apa <rot So/cei 77 prjropucf] elvai;
3a. "E/iotye, i /i^ ti ot) aAAo Aey?.
noA. T1V09 ep\iTipia;
3a. XaptTO? rtvo? fat ijSor^? direpyaaias.
nr.A. Oukouv icaAoV cto< oWei 17 prjTopucrj etvai,
\apll,eadai olov t
ivat dvdpamois;
3a. Tt 8e, a) IlaiAe; 7787} TreTrvaai Trap ep.ov,
Don </"]/-<' aur^v eivai, ware to p.era tovto eparras,
el oi KaXrj p.01 SoKel etvai;
nnA. Ov ydp Tre.TTvap.ai ori ep.ireipi.av two.
avrrjv <f>jjs eivai;
2n. BouAei o5v, eTreiSr] n/ias to xapiêadai,
ap.iKpov ii px>i xaP'-aaaâl !
nnA. "Eytoye.
3a. 'Epov vvv p.e, StfioTToUa tjtis p.01 So/cet
Te^nj etvai.
nnA. 'Epcorai 877, ti's TeyvT] OljlOTTOlla;
3a. OvSepla, <L IltuAe.
nnA. 'AAAa ti; â#i.
3a. <f>Tjp.l S77, eprreipla Tis.
310
GORGIAS
pol. Well, I will do as you say. So answer me
this, Socrates : since you think that Gorgias is at
a loss about rhetoric, what is your own account
of it?
soc. Are you asking what art I call it ?
pol. Yes.
soc. None at all, I consider, Polus, if you would
have the honest truth.
pol. But what do you consider rhetoric to be ?
soc. A thing which you say in the treatise
"
which I read of late made art."
pol. What thing do you mean ?
soc. I mean a certain habitude.
pol. Then do you take rhetoric to be a habitude ?
soc. I do, if you have no other suggestion.
pol. Habitude of what ?
soc. Of producing a kind of gratification and
pleasure.
pol. Then you take rhetoric to be something fine
an ability to gratify people ?
soc. How now, Polus ? Have you as yet heard
me tell you what I say it is, that you ask what should
follow that whether I do not take it to be fine ?
pol. Why, did I not hear you call it a certain
habitude ?
soc. Then please since you value
" "
gratification
be so good as gratify me in a small matter.
pol. I will.
soc. Ask me now what art I take cookery to be.
pol. Then I ask you, what art is cookery ?
soc. None at all, Polus.
pol. Well, what is it ? Tell me.
soc. Then I reply, a certain habitude.
311
PLATO
nnA. Twos; <j>a6i.
E 2fi. Ot^/j.i 8rj, xdpiTOS Kal rjSovijs dire py aoias,
(h IIcDAe.
nnA. Tavrov dp' earlv oifioiroda /cat pi]ropi,Kiq ;
Sn. OvSafidis ye, dAAd rrjs avrrjs fJiev tti-
TrjSevcreojs \xopiov.
UOA. Twos Xeyeis ravTrjs;
2fl. Mtj dypoiKorepov f) to dXrjdes ehretv
okvoj yap Yopyiov evsKa Xeyew, p,r) otrjrat /j.e
8iaKU>p,u>8eiv to eavrov em.Trjo'evp.a- iyd> 8e, el
p,ev rovro earw r\ prjropiKr) Topyias eTTirrfievei,
r)v
463 ovk ot8a- Kal yap dpri e/c rov Xoyov ovSev rjfj,Xv
8'
Kara<f>aves eyevero, tL Trore ovros r/yelrai- o
eyw KaXa> rr)v prjropiKrjv, Trpdyp,ar6s twos eaTi
[lopiov ovSevos ra>v koXcov.
ropr. Twos, TicoKpares elite,
a>
fir/Sev e/ze
;
aio"xyv6eis .
Ao/cet to'wvv p,oi, Topyia, efvat Tt eiri-
cS
'Sn.
rrfievfxa TeyyiKov fxev ov, ipv^fjs 8e aro)(aarLKr)s

/cat avBpeias Kal <f>voei 8ewrjs irpoaofiiXeiv toIs
dvdpwnois' /caAtD 8e auTou eydi to Ke<f>dXaiov
KoXaKeiav. Tavrrjs p.01 So/cet rfjs emTr)Sevo~ea>s
B
noXXd p.ev Kal dAAa p,6pia etvai, ev 8e Kal oi/io-

6 r)
ttoukt)- o So/cei p,ev etvai Teyyt], d>s oe ifios

Xoyos, ovk eon reyyr), dAA' ep/neipia /cat Tpif3rj.
Tavrrjs fidpiov Kal rr/v prjropiKrjv iyd) KaXa> /cat
rrjv ye Kop.p,u>riKr)v Kal rrjv oo$ioTiKr\v rerrapa
,
ravra p.6pia em rerrapai 7rpayp,aaw. et ovv

rrvvdaveodoj'
fiovXerai HwXos rrvvddveadai, ov
yap ttoj TrerrvoTai, ottoiov (f>rjp,i eyd) rfjs KoXa-
Kelas fiopiov etvai rr)v pryropiKTjV, dAA' avrov
C
ovttoj drroKeKpip-evos, 8e eiravepatra,

XeXr/Oa
6
312
GORGIAS
pol. Of what? Tell me.
soc. Then I reply, of production of gratification
and pleasure, Polus.
pol. So cookery and rhetoric are the same thing ?
soc. Not at all, only parts of the same practice.
pol. What practice do you mean ?
soc. I fear it may be too rude to tell the truth ;
I
for shrink from saying it on Gorgias' account, lest
he suppose I am making satirical fun of his own
profession. Yet indeed I do not know whether
this is the rhetoric which Gorgias practises, for from
our argument just now we got no very clear view
as to how he conceives it ; but what I call rhetoric
is a part of a certain business which has nothing fine
about it.
gorg. What is that, Socrates ? Tell us, without
scruple on my account.
soc. It seems to me then, Gorgias, to be a pursuit
that is not a matter of art, but showing a shrewd,
gallant spirit which has a natural bent for clever
dealing with mankind, and I sum up its substance
in the name flattery . This practice, as I view it, has
many branches, and one of them is cookery ; which
appears indeed to be an art but, by my account of
it, is not an art but a habitude or knack. I call
rhetoric another branch of it, as also personal adorn
ment and sophistry four branches of it for four
kinds of affairs. So if Polus would inquire, let him
inquire : he has not yet been informed to what
sort of branch of flattery I assign rhetoric ; but
without noticing that I have not yet answered that,
he proceeds to ask whether I do not consider it a
313
PLATO
el ov koXov rjyovfiai etvai. eycb 8e ai>Tu> ovk
airoKpivov/iai TtpoTepov , eire koXov e'ne alo~%p6v
qyovfiai eivai ttjv pryropiKrjV, nplv av TrpcuTov
aTTOKpivajfiat, o tv ecrriv, oi) yap SIkcuov, cS IIcuAe-
aAA' evnep fiovXei TrvOeodai, epciyra, oiroiov /xopiov
rfjs KoXaKeias <f>rjp,l etvai ttjv prjropiKrjv.
nnA. EpojTco 817, Kai airoKpivai, onoiov p,6piov.
2n. TA/s' ofiv av p.a6oLS anoKpivap-evov ; eori
D yap r) p-qropiKr) Kara, rov efiov Xoyov ttoXitiktjs
p.opiov ethcoXov.
nnA. Ti ovv; koXov r) ala^pov Xeyeis avrr)v
etvai;
2fi. Ala\pov
eycoye' to. yap fca/ca alcr^pa KaXco'
eneiSrj Set ooi cvnoKpivaodai cos 1781J elSori a eycb
Xeyco.
ropr. Ma. tov Ala, d> ILcoKpaTes, aAA eycb ot5Se
E avros avvlrjp.1 o ti Xeyeis.

2ft. EIkotcos
ye, a> Yopyia- ovhev yap irco
aa<f>es Xeyco,
IIcDAoj Se oSe veos earl Kai 6vs.
ropr. 'AAAa tovtov [tev ea, e/xot 8' ehre, ttcos
Xeyeis iroXiTiKrjs fioplov elScoXov etvai ttjv ptjTo-
piKTjV.
5ft. 'AAA' eycb neipdaoâi cf>paoai, o ye lioi
<f>alveTai etvai r) pr/TopiK-q- el Se p,r) Tvyxdvei ov
tovto, IlcbXos oSe eXey$ei. ocop,d -nov KaXeis ti
Kai tpvxtfv;
464 ropr. Htos yap ov;
f
2ft. Ovkovv Kai tovtojv oiei Ttva eivai eKaTepov
euejtav;
ropr. "Eyaiye.
314
GORGIAS
fine thing. But I
am not going to reply to the
question whether I consider rhetoric a fine or a
base thing, until I have first answered what it is ;
for it would not be fair, Polus : but if you want the
information, ask me what sort of branch of flattery
I assert rhetoric to be.
pol. I ask you then ; so answer, what sort of
branch it is.
soc. Now, will you understand when I answer ?
Rhetoric, by my account, is a semblance x of a branch
of politics.
pol. Well then, do you call it a fine or a base thing ?
soc. A base one, I call it for all that is bad I

call base since I am to answer you as though you
had already understood my meaning.
gorg. Nor do 1 myself, upon my word, Socrates,
grasp your meaning either.
soc. And no wonder, Gorgias, for as yet my
statement is not at all clear ; but Polus 2 here is so
young and fresh !
gorg. Ah, do not mind him ; but tell me what you
mean by rhetoric being a semblance of a branch of
politics.
soc. Well, I
will try to express what rhetoric
appears to me to be : if it is not in fact what I say,
Polus here will refute me. There are things, I
suppose, that you call body and soul ?
gorg. Of course.
soc. And each of these again you believe to have
a good condition ?
gorg. do.I
i.e. an unreal image or counterfeit : Quintilian (ii. 15. 25)
1
renders simulacrum.
a
Socrates alludes to the meaning of iruSXos (a colt).
315
PLATO
2n. Ti Se; SoKovcrav p.ev evefciav, ovaav 8' ov;
olov Toiov8e Xeyto- 770AA01 SoKovmv ev eêiv ra
aco/tara, ovg ovk av pa8la>s a'lardoiTO ns, on ovk
ev exovow, dXX' r) larpos re /cat tujv yvp-vaan-
KCOV ns.
ropr. 'AXrjdrj Ae'yeiy.
2n. To toiovtov Xeya) /cat ev criopaTi elvai /cat
ev i/ivxfj, o Troiel p,ev SoKelv ev e)(eiv to oa>p.a /cat
rrjv ifivxrjv, eyei Se ovSev /xaAAov.

B ropr. "Eoti raura.
sn. Oepe ooi,
S77
edv Svvcofiai, aa<j>earepov

emSei'fw o Ae'yai. Svotv ovtolv toZv Trpayp,a.Toiv
8vo Xeyoj Teyyas " ttjv p,ev em rfj tpvxfj ifoXl/rucf/v
KaXco, ttjv Se eVt oojp.aTi pbiav p,ev ovrws ovopidaai
ovk eôi ooi, pias Se ovarjs ttJ? tov od>pt,aTOS
depanelas 8vo popia Ae'yai, ttjv p,ev yvp-vaoTLK-qv
,
ttjv Se varpucqv rrjs Se TToXniKris ovtI p,ev ttjs
yvp.va.OTiKf\s ttjv vop,oderiKr]V, dvTiorpo<pov Se rrj
larpiKrj ttjv 8iKaioavv7]V eTTiKOivojvovai p.ev Srj
C
aAAÂais, are irepi to auro ouaat, eKarepai

rovrcov, re laTpiicr) rfj yvp,vaoTiKfj /cat St-
tj
r)
Kaioovvrq rfj vop.odeTi.Kfj' op.a>s Se 8ia<f>epoval ti

tovtojv ovoobv, /cat del
S77
dAAÂtov. TeTTapcov
npos to fSeXnarov Oepanevovcrajv ru>v p.ev to
crayta, twv Se ttjv ifivxrfv, KoXaKevrucrj alado-
^
p.evr], ov yvovoa Xeyut dXXd OTOXO.o-ap.evr], TeVpaâ

eavrr/v 8ia.veip.aoa, vnoSvoa vtto e/caorov toV
elvai tovto oirep vire8v,
D
p.oplaiv, TTpoanoielTai
/cat tou p,ev fieXrLarov ov8ev <poiTiei, tcS Se
316
GORGIAS
soc. And again, a good condition that may seem so,

l>ut is not ? As an example, let me give the follow
ing : many people seem to be in good bodily
condition when it would not be easy for anyone
but a doctor, or one of the athletic trainers, to
perceive that they are not so.
soc. Something of this sort I say there is in body
and in soul, which makes the body or the soul seem
to be in good condition, though it is none the more
so in fact.
gorg. Quite so.
soc. Now let me see if I
can explain my meaning
to you more clearly. There are two different affairs
to which I assign two different arts : the one, which
has to do with the soul, I call politics ; the other, J^
which concerns the body, though I cannot give you
a single name for it offhand, is all one business,
the tendance of the body, which I can designate in
two branches as gymnastic and medicine. Under
politics I
set legislation in the place of gymnastic,
and justice to match medicine. In each of these
pairs, of course medicine and gymnastic, justice
and legislation there is some intercommunication,
as both deal with the same thing ; at the same
time they have certain differences. Now these four,
which always bestow their care for the best ad
vantage respectively of the body and the soul, are
noticed by the art of flattery which, I do not say
with knowledge, but by speculation, divides herself
into four parts, and then, insinuating herself into
each of those branches, pretends to be that into
which she has crept, and cares nothing for what is
the best, but dangles what is most pleasant for the
317
PLATO
del r/Scara) rr/v dvoiav Kal eânara,
O-qpeverai
ware So/cet mXeiarov dia etvai. wo p,ev ovv rr)v
larpiKr/v 17 oôttou/ct) VTroSeSvKe, Kal TrpoaitoieZrai
rd fieXnara atria rep awp-ari etSeVat, war' el
Seot ev natal Siayaivtêcrflai difioirowv re Kal larpov
r) ev avopdaiv ovrws dvorjrois wanep oi TraZoes,
norepos eVaiei irepl rwv XP7](TT<*'V oririwv /cat
E TTOvrjpcov, 6 larpos r) 6 oifioTTOios, Xt,p,w dv dVo-
OaveZv rov larpov. KoXaKelav p,ev ovv avro koXw,
465 ifat alcrxpov <jyr)p.i etvai to roiovrov, w IIcuAe
rovro yap irpos ere Xeyw oti rov rjSeos oroâêTat
dvev rov fieXriarov reyyqv Se avrrjv ov <prjp,i
etvai dXX' ep,Treipiav, 6Vt ovk lêi Xoyov ovSeva
<x)v npoaêpei, otto? drra rrjv cf>vaiv eariv, ware
ttjv alriav eKaarov p,r/ ex6"' cltreiv. eyoj Se
rexyrtv ov koXw, 8 dv fj dXoyov -npdyp.a' tovtcov
Se irepi el ap,<piafiriTeZs , edeXw viroaxelv Xoyov.'
B rjj p,ev oSv larpiKTJ, wairep Xeyw, rj oifioTrouKr)
KoXaKeia imoKeirar rjj Se yvp.vaariKrj Kara rov
airov rporrov rovrov r) Kop.p,wriKr], KaKovpyos
re ovaa /cat aTTarrjXrj Kal ayewrjs Kal aveXevdepos,
Kal xpeupam /cat Xeiorrjri Kal ead-qaei1
a\r]p.aai,
anarwaa, ware rroieZv dXXorpiov kolXXos e<peXKO-
fievovs rov oi/cetou rov Sid rrjs yvp.vaariKr)s
a/xeXeZv. tv' ovv p.r) p.aKpoXoyw, edeXw aoi elireZv
wairep oi yewpierpai 17877 yap dv laws d/coAou-
'
drjoais [oti o Kop,p,atrtKrj irpos yvp\vaariKr\v ,

C rovro oifioiroiiKi) irpos larpiKijv p,dXXov Se cSSe],1
oti o Kop,p,wriKr) irpos yvp.vaari.KTjv, rovro ao<f>i-
OTI/C77 irpos vop.oderiKT]V, Kal oti o oi/iottoukt)
1
iad-fiaei Coraes : alaB-Zjaa, iad9)ai mss.
2
Sn . . . cMe seel. Thompson.
318 I
GORGIAS
moment as a bait for folly, and deceives it into
thinking that she is of the highest value. Thus
cookery assumes the form of medicine, and pretends
to know what foods are best for the body ; so that
if a cook and a doctor had to contend before boys,
or before men as foolish as boys, as to which of the
two, the doctor or the cook, understands the question
of sound and noxious foods, the doctor would starve
to death. Flattery, however, is what I call it, and I
say that this sort of thing is a disgrace, Polus for
here I address you because it aims at the pleasant
and ignores the best ; and I say it is not an art, but
a habitude, since it has no account to give of the
real nature of the things it applies, and so cannot
tell the cause of any of them. I refuse to give the
name of art to anything that is irrational : if you
dispute my views, I am ready to give my reasons.
However, as I put it, cookery is flattery disguised
as medicine ; and in just the same manner self-adorn
ment personates gymnastic : with its rascally, de
ceitful, ignoble, and illiberal nature it deceives men
by forms and colours, polish and dress, so as to
make them, in the effort of assuming an extraneous
beauty, neglect the native sort that comes through
gymnastic. Well, to avoid prolixity, I am willing
to put it to you like a geometer 1 for by this time I
expect you can follow me : as self-adornment is to
gymnastic, so is sophistry to legislation ; and as
1
i.e. in the concise mathematical manner, such as that
which later appeared in the writings of Euclid.
319
PLATO
2n. KoAaArei'a? pev ovv eycoye evnov pop

dXX' ov pvrjpoveveis ttjXikovtos cov, a> JlaJAe; ]. m
Tax Spdaeis; , , , , fsps^
nnA. *Ap' ovv ookovoi croi at? /cdAaKe? ev tc 'i^-
77oAeat <j)avXoi vopiêodai ol ayadol prJTopes; _:.^
B 2n. 'Epanrjpa tout' epcoras rj Xoyov tivgj^.
dpxV Xeyeis; >^
nnA. 'Epa>T<3 eywye.
5n. 0)5Se vopleo~8ai ep.oi.ye Sokovoiv.
nnA. Ilaij ou vopblêadai; ov peyiarov hvvavTai.
eV rais TrdAeoxv;
2n. Ovk, el to hvvaadai ye Xeyeis dyadov rt (
eivai rep Svvapevcp.
nnA. 'AAAa /x^y1 Xeyco ye.
sn. 'EAaxiorov toLvvv p.01 SoKovai tcov ev Tjj
Svvacrdai ol pr/Topes.
iroXet,
C nnA. Tt Se; ox>x, coonep ol rvpavvoi, asno-
KTiwvaol re ov av fiovXcovrai, koI dx/xupovvrai
Xprfp-ara Kal eKJ3dXXovmv e/c tcov iroXecov ov av
Sokjj avrots;
2n. N^ tov Kvva, pevrot, co IlcoAe,
ap<f>iyvoco
etf>' e/caarou cov Xeyeis, irorepov avros ravra
Xeyeis Kal yvcoprjv aavrov dmoâivei, rj ipe
epcoTas.
'AAA' eycoye ere epcorco.
nnA.
5n. Etev, co <j>lXe- eireiro. 8vo apa pe epcoras;
nnA. II cos Svo;
D 2n. Ovk apri ovtco ttcos eXeyes, ei ovî airo-
KTiwvaaiv ol prjropes ovs av fiovXcovrai, cooTrep
01 Tvpavvoi, Kal xprfpara d<f>aipovvTai Kal ef-
eXavvovoiv eK tcov -rroXecov ov av 80/dj avrots;
1
/U7)c Burnet : pty dy mss.
322
GORG"
GOBf /oilAS
socW'eW, \ sai a I tell vrather a branch of flattery.
Why, at your age, I will /Polus, have you no memory?
What will you do K> Pollster on ?
pol. Then do e the lyDu think that good orators are
,w
considered to >
/be flatterers in their cities, and so
worthless? . pr^1'
soc. tmfhat a question you are asking, or are you
Is t
begiMJrOJ^g a speech ?
wi)4r I
am asking a question.
sotj:.
To my mind, they are not considered at all.
pt.. How not considered ? Have they not the
chief" power in their cities ?
stc. No, if you mean power in the sense of some

thing good for him who has it.
Kil,. Why, of course I mean that.
sole. Then, to my thinking, the orators have the
smallest power of all who are in their city.
P(|l. What ? Are they not like the despots, in
Pitting to death anyone they please, and depriving
anTone of his property and expelling him from their
c'$es as they may think fit ?
soc. By the Dog, I fear I am still in two minds,
r'olus, at everything you say, as to whether this
is a statement on your own part, and a declaration of
your own opinion, or a question you are putting to me.
pol. Why, I am asking you.
soc. Very well, my friend : then are you asking
me two things at once ?
pol. How two ?
soc. Were you not this moment saying something
like this : Is it not the case that the orators put to
death anyone they wish, like the despots, and
deprive people of property and expel them from
1
their cities as they may think fit ?
323
PL\TO 'TO
t? "vojye et-n
nnA. h.yioye. ' T , , , ,
Xa. Aeyoj toLvvv aoi, on \l"V'

W
'> nm mi to
'
epwrrjixara, teal diroKpivovpiai yt ,-> m fPJ a/ipo-
repa. tfyqfil yap, & Yl&Xe, iy<h kR^S 'JW/Mpwos
"
/cai rous Tvpdvvovs hwaodcu p,ev iv ' , if ^^J71
apLiKporarov, aicnrep vw *fl' 7P
8rj
eXeyov
t
noieiv djv fiovXovTai, ws erros einelv Troie'c^
E
"
ftevT01
o ti oV auroi? So^tj fHXrurrov elvai. y~

nnA. Ovkovv tovto eari to p,eya BwacrOai* >"
2n.Ou^, coy ye cîjcri ncSAo?.
nnA. 'Eya> ov </>r)p.i; <f>7]pl p,ev ovv eywyes
2n. Ma tov ou oa> ye, 77ei to fjieya owa<
"
ecirj? dya&ji' etvai rai Bwap,evw.
ydp ow.
nnA.
>a/)i
Oi^/xt
-r -
ow oiei eivai, eav Tty 7toitj Ta "
-p T77
y
wit
2n. Ayapor
'
'
;-'
a av 8oKrj avTW êXricrra elvai, vow p.r]
e;
Kal tovto KaXels ueya hwaadai:
nnA. Uvk eywye.
2n. Ovkovv dnoSelêis tovs pr)Topas vow expvi
Kal Teyyqv tt\v prjTopiKrjv aXXa. p.7] /coAa/cei'a
8e p.e idaeis dveXeyKTov,
el
467 e/xe ieXeyas
6
;
prjTopes ol ttoiovvtcs iv rai? voXeoiv a SoKei avrois

Kal ol Tvpavvoi ovSev dyadov tovto KeKT-qaovTai,
\
hwafiis ioTiv, ws ov <f>jjs, dyadov, to
8tj
Se
el
iroielv dvev vov a So/cei Kal ai) 6p,oXoyeZs KaKov

'
elvai' ov;
7]
nnA. "Eywye.
av ovv ol prjTopes /xe'ya SvvaivTO
II
2n.
ol
d>?
17
Tvpavvoi iv Tat? TroXeaiv, eav p.rj YiOJKpaTrjs ef-

eXeyxOfj vtto HojXov oti ttoiovoiv a fiovXovTai;
nnA. Ovtos
B
dv-qp
324
GORGIAS
pol. I was.
a soc. Then I tell you that there are two questions
Kkcjire, and I will give you answers to them both.
1
flkior I say, Polus, that the orators and the despots
iîke have the least power in their cities, as I stated
as~ ist now ; since they do nothing that they wish
rr< ) do, practically speaking, though they do whatever
i: hey think to be best.
pol. Well, and not that a great power to have
is
btp
?
soc. No, judging at least by what Polus says.
h
pol. say no Pardon me, say yes.

I
I
I
soc. No, by the you do not for you said

t
;
,
chiithat great power a good to him who has it.

is
pol. Yes, and maintain it.

I
d
soc. Then do you regard it as a good, when
a
thin
Ptnan does what he thinks to be best, without having

sontelligence Is that what you call having a great
?
smal>ower
?
pol. No, do not.

I
P(
putt
soc. Then will you prove that the orators have
amintelligence, and that rhetoric an art, not
is
a
flattery, and so refute me Else, if you are going
cit
to leave me unrefuted, the orators who do what

they think fit in their cities, and the despots, will
'
find they have got no good in doing that, if indeed

power is, as you say, a good, but doing what one
thinks fit without intelligence as you yourself.
is
admit, do you not an evil.

?
pol. Yes, do.

I
soc. How then can the orators or the despots have

great power in their cities, unless Socrates
is
refuted by Polus, and admits that they do what

they wish
?
pol. Hark at the man

!
325
PLATO
5n. 0t> <f>r)[it, iToielv avrovs a f$ov\ovrai' dXXd
nnA. Ovk dpri w/x.oAoyetj noielv a SoKet avrols

jSeAncTTa etvat \tovtov irpoodev]1 ;
2n. Kat yap vvv 6p,oXoyu>.
nnA. Ovk ovv ttoiovow a fiovAovTcu;
2X1. Ou tjrqfii..
nnA. notowTe? Se a So/cet auTois;
2n. O77/U.
nnA. S^crAia ye Xeyeis /cat vvep<f>vfj, a> 2(i-
/cpaTes.
C 2n. M17 KaTTjyopei, a> Acpore HaiXe, tva irpoa-
ei7rai ae Kara, ere* dAA' ei /xei' exl? */** epcordv,
eniSeitjov ort ifjevo~op,ai, el 8e /x.^, avTOS dnoKpivov.
nnA. 'AAA' ideXco aTroKplveadai, Xva /cat etSco
o ti Acyei?.
2n. Ylorepov odv crot SoKovaiv 01 avOpanroi
tovto fiovXeadai,, o av TrpdrTcnaiv e/caoroTC, rj
eKelvo, ov evsKa Trpa/rTovm to{5#' o npaTTOvaw;
otov ol T(i (/xxp/MaKa irivovres trapa rcov larpcHv itot-
pov croi hoKovai tovto fiovXeadai, oirep ttoiovoi,
mvew to <f>app.a.Kov /cat dXyelv, 7]
e/cetvo, to
vyiaivew, 08 IW/ca mvovaiv;
D nnA. AfjXov Sri to vyiaivew.
2n. Ovkovv /cat 01 vXeovres re /cat tov dXXov
XpTjp,aTiafj,6v xpT)p,a.Ti6p,evoi ov tovto iariv 0
PovXovrai, o ttoiovoiv e/cao-Tore- ti's yap ^SouAerai

irXetv Te /cat KivSvveveiv /cat npa.yp.a.T' êii';
1
toutov rp6(r8ev seel. Sehleiermacher.
326
GORGIAS
soc. I deny that they do what they wish : there,

refute me.
pol. Did you not admit just now that they do
what they think best ?
soc. Yes, and I admit it now.
pol. Then do they not do what they wish ?
soc. I say no.
pol. When they do what they think fit ?
soc. Yes.
pol. What shocking, nay, monstrous answers,
Socrates !
soc. Spare your invective, peerless Polus if I
may address you in your own style : 1 but if you
have a question to ask me, expose my error ; other
wise, make answer yourself.
pol. Well, I am ready to answer, in order that I
may know what you mean.
soc. Then is it your view that people wish merely
that which they do each time, or that which is the
object of their doing what they do ? For instance,
do those who take medicine by doctor's orders
wish, in your opinion, merely what they do, to
take the medicine and suffer the pain of it, or
rather to be healthy, which is the object of their
taking it ?
pol. To be healthy, without a doubt.
soc. And so with seafarers and such as pursue
profit generally in trade ; what they wish is not
what they are doing at each moment for who
wishes to go on a voyage, and incur all its danger
1
The assonance in Si \fare IluXe is a mocking allusion
to the nicely balanced clauses and jingling phrases which
Polus imitated from his master Gorgias. Something of
this style appears in Polus's speech above, 448 c.
327
PLATO
dAA' eKelvo, otpai, ofi eveKa rrXeovoi, rrXovrelv
nXovrov yap eveKa rrXeovoiv.
nnA. Hdvv ye.
SCI. "AAAo ti ovv ovro) /cat rrepi rravratv, eav
rls ti rrpdrrrj eveKa rov, ov rovro fiovXerai, 8
npdrrei, dAA' eKelvo, ov eveKa rrpdrrei;
E nnA. Nat.
2n. vAp' ovv earn ti rcov ovr atv, 8 oixi rjroi
ayaOov y iorlv r) /ca/cdv rj pera^v rovrcov, ovre
dyadov ovre /ca/cdv;
nnA. IIoAAij dvdyicr], d> ILdiKpares.
SCl. Ovkovv Xeyeis elvai dyadov pev ao<f>iav
re /cat vyieiav Kai ttXovtov /cat raAAa rd roiavra,
/ca/cd Se rdvavria rovrwv;
nnA. "Eycoye.
SCl. Td Se prjre aya&a prjre /ca/ca dpa TotdSe
468 Xeyeis, a evlore pev pere-)(ei rov dyadov, evlore
8e rov KaKov, evlore 8e ovherepov, olov KaOrjodai
/cat fiah'll.eiv /cat rpeêiv /cat TrAetv, /cat otov av
Xldovs /cat vAa /cat TaAAa rd roiavra; oil ravra
Xeyeis; rj aAA a-rra KaXeis to. pfjre ayaOd pryre
/ca/ca;
nnA. Owe, aAAd ravra.
SCl. ndrepoi' ofo rd peraî) ravra eveKev ruiv
dyadwv rtpdrrovaiv , orav -nparrcocriv , r) rdyadd
rcov pera^v;
nnA. Td pera^v 8rjiTov rwv dyaddiv.
B SCl. To ayaOov apa hiwKovres /cat f$ahli[,opev ,
orav fiahlt,a>pev, olopevoi fieXriov elvai, /cat to
evavrlov eorapev, orav ecrrdipev, rov avrov eveKa,
rov dyadov- rj ov;
328
GORGIAS
and trouble ? It is rather, I conceive, the object

of their voyage to get wealth ; since it is for
wealth that they go on it.
pol. Certainly.
soc. And is it not just the same in every case ?
If a man does something for an object, he does not
wish the thing that he does, but the thing for which
he does it.
pol. Yes.
soc. Now is there any existent thing that is not
either good or bad or between these neither good
nor bad ?
pol. Most assuredly nothing, Socrates.
soc. Well, do you call wisdom and health and
wealth and everything else of that kind good, and
their opposites bad ?
pol. I do.
soc. And by things neither good nor bad do you
mean such things as sometimes partake of the good,
sometimes of the bad, and sometimes of neither
for example, sitting, walking, running, and sailing,
or again, stones and sticks and anything else of
that sort ? These are what you mean, are they
not ? Or are there other things that you describe
as neither good nor bad ?
pol. No, these are what I mean.
soc. Then do people do these intermediate things,
when they do them, for the sake of the good things,
or the good things for the intermediate ?
pol. The intermediate, I presume, for the good.
soc. Thus it is in pursuit of the good that we walk,
when we walk, conceiving it to be better ; or on
the contrary, stand, when we stand, for the sake of
the same thing, the good : is it not so ?
329
PLATO
nd\. Nat.
SO. Owcow aTTOKTivvvfiev, el two. cltto-
icai
icriwvfi.ev, kcu eKpcAXofiev kcu aufxupovfJieOa ~xpr\-
fiara, oiofievoi diieivov eivai rjfj.lv ravra^ irotelv
iiqa. Flow; ye.

2C. "Eve/c' dpa tov ayadov dVavra ravra
Troiovaiv ol TTOiovvres.
na\. QhjpJ.
2Q. Ovkovv <hfi.oXoyr]aatxev, a eveicd tov izowv-
fiev, fiif CKeTva fiovXeo&ai, dXX* iiceivo, ov h-eiea
ravra iroiov/iev;
C noA. MdXurra.
2C. Ovk dpa ffâ-rreo' {tovXoiieOa ou8' c/c/JaA-
Aetv K tGsv iroXeajv ouSc -^prqixaTa axjxiipeiodm
aXV>s ovruts, aXX ecw
fiev (Ixf^Xifia toOto.,
-r/
f3ovX6ii,e9a Trpd-rreiv airrd, ftXaficpa 8c ovra ov
f3ovX6fj.e0a. rd yap dyaBd fiovXotieOa, aW ^g?
ov, to 8c p-Tfre dyaOa prfre kclko. ov fiovXoiieda,,
oi)o ra fcafca. yap; oatjotj ooi ookcj Aeytw, v>
r)
IIcuAc, ov; ti ovk aiTOKpiirrj

rj
OQA. 'AArjOij.
2Q. Ovkovv eiTrep ravra oixoXoyoviiev, ci ti>
D
diroKTeivei rwd eV/3<AAei k iroXeats dcfxiipeiTak

fj
r)
yjir\ix,a.ra, etrc rvpawos dtv citc prp-aip, oloixevos

dfieivov elvai aural, Tvyxdvei 8c oc kokiov, ovtos
StJttov TToiei a Sokci avrw- yap;
t]
nCA. Nat.
2C. *Ap* ouv #cai a /SouAcrat, eiirep -nryâWi
raura ica/ca oira; ti ou/e aTTOKpiVT};
nOA. 'AAA' ou /iot So/cci Troteu' a /Joi/Acrat.
** 2Q. "Eotu> ow o77aj? o Toiotrro? ucya Svntnu
330
GORGIAS
pol. Yes.
soc. And so we pat a man to death,
we do putif
him to death, or expel him or deprive him of his
property, because we think it better for us to do
this than not :
pol. Certainly.
soc. So it is for the sake of the good that the doers
of all these things do them ?
pol. I agree.
soc. And we have admitted that when we do
things for an object, we do not wish those things,
but the object for which we do them ?
pol. Quite so.
soc. Then we do not wish to slaughter people or
expel them from our cities or deprive them of their
property as an act in itself, but if these things are
beneficial we wish to do them, while if they are
harmful, we do not wish them. For we wish what
is good, as you say ; but what is neither good nor
bad we do not wish, nor what is bad either, do we ?
Is what I say true in your opinion, Polus, or not ?
Why do you not answer ?
pol. It is true.
soc. Then, as we agree on this, if a man puts
anyone to death or expels him from a city or deprives
him of his property, whether he does it as a despot
or an orator, because he thinks it better for himself
though it is really worse, that man, I take it, does
what he thinks fit, does he not ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Now is it also what he wishes, supposing it
to be really bad ? Why do you not answer ?
I
pol. No, do not think he does what he wishes.
soc. Can such a man then be said to have great
331
PLATO
ev t?7 ravTr], etnep earl to fieya Svvaodai
7ToAei
ayadov rt Kara ttjv ar)v 6p,oXoyiav ;
nftA. Ovk eariv.
2ft. 'AXrjdfj dpa eytb eXeyov, Xeytov on eariv
av9pct)7TOV TTOtovvra ev iroXei, a So/cei aur<3 firj
fj,eya Bvvaodai firjSe Troielv a fiovXerai.
nftA. 'Q.s av, a> HwKpares, ovk dv Se'fato
817
iijeivai 001 TTOietv Tt 80/cei 001 ev rfj TroXei p.aXXov
6
ovoe ^rjXoZs orav lorjs tlvol
pvf\, diTOKreivavTa
r)
r)
dv eo~oi;ev avrco d<f>eX6fievov xpr)p,ara
r) Srjaavra.
r)
2ft. At/cata/s Xeyeis doiKcos;
rj
469 nftA. 'Onorep' dv ttoitj, ovk dp,<j>orepcos fyXcorov
ear iv
;
2ft. Ewfafiei, to IlaiAe.

nnA. Ti 8-q;
2ft. "On
ov xpr) ovre tows d^rjXcorovs t,rjXovv
ovre rovs ddXiovs, dXX' eXeelv.
nnA. Tt 8e; outoj 001 SoKei eyeiv nepi <bv
iyco Xeyco rcov dvdpumcov
;
2ft. Hats ydp ov;

nftA. "Ocm? ovv d-noKrlwvaiv ov dv 86r)
avrcp, oiKdicos aTTOKTivvvs, dOXios So/cei aoi etrat
/cat eXeeivos;
2ft. Ovk epuoiye, ovhe fievroi ^rjXcoros.
nftA. Ovk dpn ddXiov e<f>rja6a eivai;
2ft. T6v eralpe, airoKreivavra,
a)
dSt'/ca)? ye,
B
Kai eXeeivov 8e rrpos' rov 8e Si/cat'co? dt,r)Xcorov .

nftA. TH 7TOI) o ye dnodvâKcov dSt/cco? eAeetvo?
re /cat d#Aio? eariv.
2ft. ^Httoi' diroKTivvvs, to IlaiAe, /cat
6
t}
rjrrov Si/cato)? a-nodvrâKtov

6
.
rj
332
GORGIAS
power in that city, if to have great power is something

good, according to your admission ?
pol. He cannot.
soc. Then I spoke the truth when I said that it
is possible for a man to do what he thinks fit in a
city and yet not to have great power nor to do what
he wishes.
pol. As if you, Socrates, would not accept the liberty
of doing what you think fit in your city rather than
not, and would not envy a man whom you observed
to have put some one to death as he thought fit, or
deprived him of his property or sent him to prison !
soc. Justly, do you mean, or unjustly ?
pol. Whichever way he does it, is it not enviable
in either case ?
soc. Hush, Polus !
pol. Why ?
soc. Because we ought not to envy either the
unenviable or the wretched, but pity them.
pol. What ! Is that the state in which you
consider those people, of whom I speak, to be ?
soc. Yes, for so I must.
pol. Then do you consider that a man who puts
another to death as he thinks fit, and justly puts
him to death, is wretched and pitiable ?
soc. Not I ; but not enviable either.
pol. Did you not say j ust now that he was wretched?
soc. Only he who unjustly put some one to death,
my friend, and I called him pitiable as well : if he
acted justly, then he is unenviable.
pol. I suppose, at any rate, the man who is put
to death unjustly is both pitiable and wretched.
soc. Less so than he who puts him to death,
Polus, and less so than he who is put to death justly.
333
PLATO
nnA. Ild)? SijYa, SawcpaTes;
co
sn. Ovtcos, cos (J-eyiarov tcov ko-kcov Tvy%dvet
ov to dSiKelv.
nnA. TH yap tovto fj,eyi.oTov; ov to doiKeiadai
p-eitpv;
2n. "H/aora ye.
nnA. Su dpa jSouAoio av dSi/ceiotfai [j,aXXov 77
aSi/ceiv;
C 2C BouAot/iTji/ fiev av eycoye ovo'erepa- el S'
avayKalov etrj abiKeiv 77 adiKelcrdai, eXoip/qv dv
doiKelodai, dSiKetv.
IxaXXov 77
nnA. Su dpa Tvpavvew ovk dv 8eaio;

2n. Ovk, el to TVpawetv ye Xeyeis oirep iyto.
nnA. 'AAA' eycoye tovto Xeyco oirep dpri,
eeZvai ev ttj ttoXcl, o dv 80/07 avrcp, iroielv tovto,
Kal a-TTOKTivvvvTi /ecu e/cj8aAAovTi /cat mtvra, Trpdr-
TOVTl KOTO TTjV avTov 86av.
sn. Q p.aKapie, etxov
8rj
XeyovTOS Tip Xoycp

D emXafiov.
el
yap eycb ev ayopa TrXrjdovar) Xafithv

vtto p,dXr)s eyxeipl8iov Xeyoiui Trpos ae oti co
TLcoXe, ep.01 8wap,ls tis xal rvpawls davp,aala
dpri Trpoayeyovev edv yap dpa ep,ol 86r) nva
TOVTtovl tcov dvdpconcov cov av 6pq.g avnKa fj,dXa
8etv Tedvdvai, Tedvtfei oStos ov dv 86r)' Kav Tiva
86r/ p,oi tt)s Ke<f>aXr)s avrcov KaTayrjvai 8etv,
KaTeaycbs eorai avriKa p,dXa, Kav doip.aTiov
8ieaxladai, 8t,0~)(i.ap,evov eorar ovtco fieya iyco
E
8wafj,ai ev Trj8e tj} iroXei' ovv d-niaTovvTi aoi

el
8eiai/u to iyxeiplSiov, lacos dv eiirois I8cbv oti

co "EcoKpaTes, ovtco p.ev iravTes dv p,eya Svvaivro,
eirei Kav ep.Trpr)<jdelr} 01/aa tovtco tco rpoTtco
rjVTivd crot, 8okoT, Kal to ye 'AOtjvcucov vecopia
334
GORGIAS
pol. In what way can that be, Socrates ?
soc. In this, that to do wrong is the greatest of evils.
pol. What, is this the greatest ? Is not to suffer
wrong a greater ?
soc. By no means.
pol. Then would you wish rather to suffer wrong
than to do it ?
soc. I should wish neither, for my own part ; but
if it were necessary either to do wrong or to suffer
it, I should choose to suffer rather than do it.
pol. Then you would not accept a despot's power?
soc. No, if you mean by a despot's power the same
as I do.
pol. Why, what I mean is, as I did just now, the
liberty of doing anything one thinks fit in one's
city putting people to death and expelling them
and doing everything at one's own discretion.
soc. My gifted friend, let me speak, and you
shall take me to task in your turn. Suppose that in
a crowded market I should hide a dagger under my
"
arm and then say to you : Polus, I have just
acquired, by a wonderful chance, the power of a
despot ; for if I should think fit that one of those
people whom you see there should die this very
instant, a dead man he will be, just as I think fit ;
or if I think fit that one of them shall have his
head broken, broken it will be immediately ; or to
have his cloak torn in pieces, torn it will be : so
great is my power in this city." Then suppose that
on your disbelieving this I showed you my dagger ;
"
I expect when you saw it you would say : Socrates,
at this rate every one would have great power, for
any house you thought fit might be set ablaze on
these methods, and the Athenian arsenals also, and
335
PLATO
/cat at rpirjpeis /cat to 7rAota -navra. /cat to. o-qpLoma

/cat ra iota- aAA ovk apa tout eort to p,eya
Svvaodcu, to TTOielv a 8o/cei aur<3- r/ So/cet aoi;
nnA. 0t5 SfJTa ovtio ye.
470 2n. "Eêi? QW et77etv 81 o ti pLep,<f>rj rrjv roiavn^v
8wa/x.iv;
nnA. "Eyaiye.
2n. Ti 817; Ae'ye.
nnA. "On dvay/catoi' tw ovtco irparrovra 17-
jMovodaL eoTW.
2n. To Se ^rjfiiovadai ov kclkov;
nnA. Ilavu ye.
2n. Ovkovv, <L 6avp,dme [to /xe'ya Swacrflai],1
naXiv av crot </>atVeTat, ear fih> ttp&ttovti a So/cei
eTTTjTai to UKêXlpnos Trp&TTew, dyadov re e?i>ai,
/cat tovto, (Ls eoiKev, eort to /ze'ya Swaoflat* et
B Se /xtJ, kolkov /cat apuKpov hvvaadai. OKei/jct>fj,eda
Se /cat ToSe- aAAo Tt t) 6p.oXoyovp.ev eVtOTe /xev
ap,ewov elvai Tavra noieiv a vvv 8ijeXeyopiev,
airoKTiwvvai, Te /cat itjeXawew dvOpconovs /cat
d(f>aLpeladai xprjp.a/ra, eVtOTe Se on;
act; ye.
II
nnA.
2n. Touto /xev 8ry, to? eot/ce, /cat napd arov
/cat 7rap' e/xou d/ioAoyetTat.
nnA. Nat.
2n. IIoTe oSv av (fays ap.ewov efvat ravTa
noieZv; elne two. opov opltfl.
nnA. Su p.kv ovv, to Sco/c/oaTey, airoicpivai
TatlTOj TOUTO.
2n. 'Eycb /xev toivvv Ilc3Ae, et cot
C
<f>rjp,l, cu
to ^70 6"iW<r0ai seel. Thompson.

1
Tavrb seel. Heindorf.

*
336
GORGIAS
the men-of-war and all the rest of the shipping, both

public and private." But surely this is not what it
is to have great power merely doing what one
thinks fit. Or do you think it is ?
pol. Oh no, not in that way.
soc. Then can you tell me why you disapprove
of this kind of power ?
pol. I can.
soc. Why, then ? Tell me.
pol. Because it is inevitable that he who acts
thus will be punished.
soc. And is it not a bad thing to be punished ?
pol. Certainly.
soc. So, my remarkable friend, you have come
round again to the view that if doing what one
thinks fit is attended by advantage in doing it, this
is not merely a good thing but at the same time, it
seems, the possession of great power ; otherwise
it is a bad thing and means little power. And let
us consider another point besides ; do we not admit
that sometimes it is better to do those things that
we were mentioning just now to put people to
death and banish them and deprive them of property
while sometimes it is not ?
pol. To be sure.
soc. Then here is a point, it seems, that is admitted
both on your side and on mine.
pol. Yes.
soc. Then when do you say it is better to do these
things ? Tell me where you draw the line.
pol. Nay, I would rather that you, Socrates,
answered that.
soc. Well then I say, Polus, if you prefer to hear
vol. v z 337
PLATO
Trap epov tjoiov earw aKoveiv, orav pev SiKaicos

tis ravra iroifj, dpewov elvai, orav Se dSiKcas,
KO.KIQV.
nriA. XaAerrdv ye ae eXeyâi, c5 JjCJKpares'
dAA' ov)(l kov ttous ae eXeyêiev, on ovk dXrjdij
Xeyeis;
2fl. HoXXrjv dpa eyeb ra> rrai^l X"-Plv ^<ti> tayjv
Se Kal aoi, edv pe eXey^rjs Kal aTTaXXd^rjs <f)Xva-
pias. dXXd prj Kaprjs <f>lXov dvopa evepyer&v,
aXX eAeyê.
D nnA. 'AAAd pi}v,
TiioKpares, ovSev ye ae Sei
<L
vaXaiois Trpa.yp.aaw eXeyêiv to yap e)(des Kai

rrpwrjv yeyovora ravra iKavd ae eeXeyai ion
Kal aTTooeiai, <Ls voXXol dSiKovvres dvOpcoTroi
evoalpoves elaiv.
2n. Td rrola ravra;
nnA. 'ApêXaov StJttov rovrov rov TlepoiKKOv
Spas dpxovra MaKeoovlas;
Sa. Ei Se prq, dAA' aKovct) ye.
nnA. Evoaipwv ofiv aoi ooKei elvai rj ddXios ;
2n. Ovk oloa, c3 IltDAe- ov yap ttu> avyyeyova
rd> avopl.
E IMA. Ti 8e; yvoirjs,
avyyevopevos dv dXXcos
Se avrodev ov yiyvcooKeis on evbaipovei;
2n. Md A" ov Sijra.
nnA. ArjXov 877, J) "EitoKpares, on ovoe rov
peyav flaoiXea yiyvcboKeiv evSaipova ovra.
<f>ijoeis
2n. Kai dXr]6fj ye 'epdi' ov yap oloa rraih'elas
orrous e\ei Kai SiKaioavvqs .
338
GORGIAS
it from me, that it is better when these things are

done justly, and worse when unjustly.
pol. So hard to refute you, Socrates ! Nay, a
mere child could do it, could he not, and prove your
words are untrue ?
soc. Then I shall be most grateful to the child,
and equally to you, if you refute me and rid me of
foolery. Come, do not grow weary in well-doing
towards your friend, but refute me.
pol. Well, to be sure, Socrates, there is no need
to refute you with ancient instances ; for those
happenings of but a day or two ago are enough to
refute you, and prove that many a wrongdoer is happy.
soc. What sort of thing do you mean ?
pol. I suppose you see that Archelaus, son of
Perdiccas, is ruler of Macedonia ? 1
soc. Well, if I do not, at any rate I hear it.
pol. Do you consider him happy or wretched ?
soc. I do not know, Polus ; I have never met the
man.
pol. What Could you find out by meeting him,
?
and cannot otherwise tell, straight off, that he is
happy ?
soc. No, indeed, upon my word.
pol. Then doubtless you will say, Socrates, that
you do not know that even the Great King is happy.
soc. Yes, and I shall be speaking the truth ; for
I do not know how he stands in point of education
and justice.
1
Archelaus usurped the throne of Macedonia in 413 B.C.,
and ruled till his death in 399 B.C. Euripides, Agathon, and
other distinguished Athenians were guests at his court;
Socrates was also invited, but declined to visit him (Aristot.
Rhet. ii. 23. 8), and this is probably the point of Socrates'
next remark.
339
PLATO
nnA. Tt Se; tovtco ij nacra evSaifiovla earlv;

ev
211. "O? ye eycb Xeyco, co HcoXe- tov p.ev yap
kclXov KayaOov dvSpa Kal yvvaiKa ev8alp,ova
elval <f>7]p,i, tov 8e dSt/cov Kal rrovqpov ddXiov.
471 nnA. "AdXios dpa ovtos eoTiv 6 'ApêXaos
Kara tov aov Xoyov;
2n. Einep ye, co cpiXe, d8i/coj.
nnA. 'AAAd p,ev ircos ovk dSt/cos;
St)
co ye
ovti
fjv
irpoofJKe p.ev ttj? dpx'fjs ov8ev vvv eêt, e/c
yvvau<6s SovXrj 'AA/cerou tov

HepSiKKOv
fj
rp>
Kal Kara to
fy
d8eXcf>ov, p,ev SIkcuov 8ovXos
'AXkctov, rd St/cata Troielv,
el
/cat e/JouAero
fjv
ehovXevev dv 'AA/cerrj /cat ev8alp,cov /caT<x tov
aov Xoyov vvv 8e Bavaaaicos cos ddXios yeyovev,
eTrel rd p,eyiara os ye irptoTOV p,ev
B
ijSt/cry/cev
tovtov avrov tov SeoTTOTrjv /cat delov p,eTaTrejx-
fjv
ifidp.evos cos Try apxyv
aiTootoiTLOv TlepoiKKas
avrov dcf>elXeTO, eviaas ko\ KwrafMedvcras avrov
re /cat tov vlov avrov AXegavopov, aveifiiov avrov,
o"xehdv rjXiKMOTrjv, efifiaXcbv els dp,aav, vvKTcop
eayaycbv d7reo<f>ae re /cat fjcjydviaev da<f>OTepovsm
/cat TavTa aSt/cr^cra? eXadev eavTov adXiojTaTOS
yevofxevos /cat ov fjL.eTep,eXr]crev aura), dAA' oXlyav
voTepov tov a8eX(f>6v, tov yvqaiov tov IlepSi/c/coi/
C
vlov, 7ratSa cos eTnaeTrj, ov dpxfj eyiyveTO /card

f]
to St/catov, ovk ej3ovXrj8r) ev8aificov yeveadai

St/cata/? eKdpeiftas Kal 0,770801/? tt)i' dpxfjv eKelvco,
dAA' els <f>peap Kal aTroTrvUjas 7rpos rr/v
efxfiaXcov
p,y]Tepa avTov KXeonaTpav xVva eYll oicoKovTa
epvneaelv Kal d-nodaveiv. ToiydpToi vvv, are p.e
340
GORGIAS
pol. Why, does happiness entirely consist in that ?
soc. Yes, by my account, Polus ; for a good and
honourable man or woman, I say, is happy, and an
unjust and wicked one is wretched.
pol. Then this Archelaus, on your statement, is
wretched ?
soc. Yes, my friend, supposing he is unjust.
pol. Well, but how can be be other than unjust ?
He had no claim to the throne which he now occupies,
being the son of a woman who was a slave of Per-
diccas' brother Alcetas, and in mere justice he was
Alcetas' slave ; and if he wished to do what is just,
he would be serving Alcetas and would be happy,
by your account ; but, as it is, he has become a
prodigy of wretchedness, since he has done the
most enormous wrong. First of all he invited this
very master and uncle of his to his court, as if he
were going to restore to him the kingdom of which
Perdiccas had deprived him ; and after entertaining
him and his son Alexander his own cousin, about
the same age as himself and making them drunk,
he packed them into a carriage, drove them away
by night, and murdered and made away with them
both. And after all these iniquities he failed to
observe that he had become a most wretched person,
and had no repentance, but a while later he refused
to make himself happy by bringing up, as he was
justly bound, his brother, the legitimate son of
Perdiccas, a boy about seven years old who had
a just title to the throne, and restoring the kingdom
to him ; but he cast him into a well and drowned
him, and then told his mother Cleopatra that he
had fallen in and lost his life while chasing a goose.
So now, you see, as the greatest wrongdoer in
341
PLATO
yiara r)8iKr]Kcbs raw
MaKeoovlq, dOXicoraros
ev
eari navrcov Ma/ceSovaw, dXX' ovk evoaipLove-
araros, Kai iaa>s eariv Sons 'AOrjvaicov and aov
D dpdp.evos oeâir dv dXXos oanaovv Ma/ceSdvaw
yeveadai fiaiXXov rj 'ApxeXaos.
sn. Kai Kar' dpxds rcov Xoywv, cS IlaiAe,
eywye ere eTrr/veaa on fioi ooKeis ev irpds tt)v
prjTopiKrjv neTraiSevadai, rov Se StaAe'yeffflai 17/ie-
XrjKevaf Kai vvv dXXo n ovros eanv 6 Xoyos, S
fie Kai dv irais ieXeyeie, Kai iyd) vtto aov vvv,
ws av oiei, efjeXrjXeyfJiai rovrat ra> Xoycp, cf>daKaiv
rov dhiKovvra ovk evSaifiova eivai; rrodev, cS
'yade; Kai fir)v ovoev ye aoi rovrwv 6p,oXoyw
<Lv av <f>rjs.
E nnA. 0i5 yap edeXeis, eirel hoKei ye aoi <bs
eyd) Xeyco.
sn. TD fiaKapie,prjropiKciis ydp fie imxeipeis
eXeyxeiv, warrep ol ev rots SiKaarrjpiois rjyovfievoi
iXeyxeiv. /cat ydp eVei ol erepoi rovs erepovs
ooKovaiv eXeyxew, eireiodv ra>v Xoycov (Lv av
Xeycooi fidprvpas ttoXXovs rtapexoivrai Kai ev-
ooKifiovs, 6 Se rdvavria Xeytuv eva rtvd napex7]
7] firjoeva. ovros oe o eAeyxos ovoevos agios
472 eort rrpos rr)v dXrjdeiav eviore ydp dv Kai Kara-
i/ievSofiaprvp7]8eirj ns vtto ttoXXwv Kai SoKOVvrwv
elvai Tt. Kai vvv irepi wv ail Xeyeis oXiyov aoi.
irdvres avfi(f>r]aovai ravra AOrjvaioi Kai oi evoi,
edv fiovXr] Kar' efiov fidprvpas napaaxeadai, ojs
ovk dXrjdfj Xeyw fiaprvprjaoval aoi, edv fiev
fiovXr], NiKias 6 NiKTfpdrov Kai ol aoeXtf>ol fier'
avrov, <Lv ol rpiTroSes ol ecj)erjs earunes elaiv
342
GORGIAS
Macedonia, he is the most wretched of all the

Macedonians, not the happiest ; and I daresay
some Athenians could be found who would join you
in preferring to change places with any other
Macedonian of them all, rather than with
Archelaus !
soc. At the beginning of our discussion, Polus, I

complimented you on having had, as I consider, a good
training in rhetoric, while you seem to have neglected
disputation ; and now, accordingly, this is the
argument, is it, with which any child could refute
me ? By this statement, you think, I now stand
refuted at your hands, when I assert that the wrong
doer is not happy ? How so, my good friend ?
Why, I tell you I do not admit a single point in
what you say.
pol. No, because you do not want to ; for you
really agree with my statement.
soc. My gifted friend, that is because you attempt
to refute me in rhetorical fashion, as they understand
refuting in the law courts. For there, one party is
supposed to refute the other when they bring forward
a number of reputable witnesses to any statements
they may make, whilst their opponent produces
only one, or none. But this sort of refutation is
quite worthless for getting at the truth ; since
occasionally a man may actually be crushed by
the number and reputation of the false witnesses
brought against him. And so now you will find
almost everybody, Athenians and foreigners, in
agreement with you on the points you state, if you
like to bring forward witnesses against the truth of
what I say : if you like, there is Nicias, son of
Niceratus, with his brothers, whose tripods are
343
PLATO
'
evto) AiovvoIoj, edv Se fiovXrj, ApiOTOKpdrrjs 6
2/ceAAi'ou, oS av eariv iv Uvdlov tovto to KaXdv
B dvd6rjp.a, iav oe fiovXr), r) HepiKXeovs dXr) oIklo
rj dXXr] ovyyeveia, rjvTiva av povXrj rdjv ivddhe
ii<\eaodat,. dXX' iyoj aoi els d>v ov% 6p,oXoyco'
ov yap p,e av avayKat,eis, dXXd tfievoop.dpTvpas
ttoXXovs kot ip,ov Trapao~xpp.evos irnxeipeis e/c/JaA-
Xeiv p.e K Ttjs ovaias Kal rov dXrjdovs.' iyd> Se

av p.r) oe avrov eva ovra p,dpTvpa irapdaxoofiai.
6p,oXoyovvra rrepl <Lv Xeyoo, ovSev olfiai diov
C Xoyov p.ot Trenepavdai nepl <Lv dv r)p,Zv 6 Xoyos
otfiai 8e ovSe aoi, iav p,r) iyu> aoi p,aprvp6j els
fj-
dXXovs Trdvras rovrovs \aipew

o'
u>v fiovos, tovs

ids. eari p.ev ovv oSros ris rporros iXeyxov, cos
av T oiei /cat dXXoi ttoXXoi- eon ok Kal aXXos, ov
iycb av olp,ai. rrapapaXovres ovv Trap' dXXrjXovs
ti oiolaovaiv Kai yap
el
aKi/iu>p,e6a, aXXrjXcov.
rvyxdvei. nepl <Lv dp,(f)iaprjTovp,ev ov rrdw afiiKpa
ovra, dXXd trêSoV ti ravra, irepl <Lv elSevai re
KaXXiorov p,rj eloevai re aioxiarov to yap Ke<j)d-
Xaiov avrcov earlv yiyvcooKeiv dyvoelv, oaris
rj
rj
Te ei8aip.cov eari /cat Boris p.rj. avriKa Trpcorov,

nepl ov vvv o Xoyos iar'i, ov rjyrj olov Te eivai
D
piaKapiov dvopa aoiKovvrd re Kal doiKov ovra,

dSiKov p,ev r)yrj elvai, ev8alp.ova
'
eirrep KpyeXaov
oe- dXXo ti cos ovrco aov vop,iovTOs 8i.avoojp.eda;
nnA. Yldvv ye.
These tripods were prizes won by dramatic performances

1
supported as a public service by Nicias and his brothers, and

they were placed in the precincts of the temple of Dionysus.
The persons here mentioned are selected as instances of
344
GORGIAS
standing in a row in the Dionysium ; 1 or else

Aristocrates, son of Scellias, whose goodly offering
again is well known at Delphi ; or if you choose,
there is the whole house of Pericles or any other
family you may like to select in this place. But
I, alone here before you, do not admit it, for you
fail to convince me : you only attempt, by producing
a number of false witnesses against me, to oust me
from my reality, the truth. But if on my part I fail to
produce yourself as my one witness to confirm what I
say, I consider I have achieved nothing of any account
towards the matter of our discussion, whatever it
may be ; nor have you either, I conceive, unless I
act alone as your one witness, and you have nothing
to do with all these others. Well now, this is one mode
of refutation, as you and many other people under
stand it ; but there is also another which I on my
side understand. Let us therefore compare them
with each other and consider if there is a difference
between them. For indeed the points which we
have at issue are by no means of slight importance :
rather, one might say, they are matters on which
it is most honourable to have knowledge, and most
disgraceful to lack it ; for in sum they involve our
knowing or not knowing who is happy and who is
not. To start at once with the point we are now
debating, you consider it possible for a man to be
happy while doing wrong, and as a wrongdoer,
since you regard Archelaus as a wrongdoer, and
yet happy. We are to conclude, are we not, that
this is your opinion ?
pol. Certainly.
public men who won high reputation in their time through
the pursuit of material wealth and influence.
345
PLATO
2n. 'Eyto Se <f>rjui, dovvarov. ev fiev rovrl

etev
817
afi,<J)i<jf3r]Tovfiev . doiKUJv Se evoaipnov
eorat dp', av rvyxdvQ 81/07? re Kal n,p,wpias
;
nnA. "H/aora ye, eVei o#ra> av ddXuararos
y'
eirj.
2n. 'AAA' eav dpa rvyxdvrj 81/07? aSiKwv,
E
6
p,r)
Kara rov aov Adyov evoaiftiov ear ai;
nnA. Oij/ai.
2n. Kara Se ye T^y ep/rjv ooav, a IlaiAe,
d
aoiKwv re Kal dSiKos rravros p.ev ddXios, ddXiw-
6
repos fievroi, edv fir) Stow oiktjv fAiqoe rvyxdvrj

Tificoplas dSiKcov, r^rrov oe ddXios, edv SiSaj 81/07V
Kal rvyxdvr] 81/07? vtto Bewv re Kal dvdpdnroiv.
473 nnA. "Arorrd ye, w l^wKpares imx^pets Xeyeiv.
,
2n. Yieipdao p.ai oe ye Kal oe rroifjoai, u> eralpe,
ravrd e/x.01 Xeyeiv <f>lXov ydp ae r)yovp,ai. vvv
p,ev ovv a oia^>epdp,eda ravr iariv oKo-nei Se Kal
ov' etrrov iyo) rrov ev rots ep.rrpoodev ro dSiKelv
rov doiKelodai KaKiov elvai.
nnA. Haw ye.
2n. Su Se to doLKetodai.
nnA. Nai.
2n. Kal rovs dSiKowras ddXlovs e<f>r)v
etvai
eye!), Kal ir]XeyxOr)v vtto aov.
nnA. Nai p,a Aia.
sn. 'Q.s ov ye oiei, IlajAe.
B
a>
nnA. 'AXrjOrj ye oid/xevo?.

2n. "lotus, ov Se ye euSai/iova? aS rovs aSi-
Kovvras, edv p.r) oiociioi oLkt]v.
346
GORGIAS
soc. And I
say it is impossible. There we have
one point at issue. Very good ; but then, will a
man be happy in wrongdoing if he comes in for
requital and punishment ?
pol. Not at all, since in that case he would be
most wretched.
soc. But if
the wrongdoer escapes requital, by
your account he will be happy ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Whereas in my opinion, Polus, the wrongdoer
or the unjust is wretched anyhow ; more wretched,
however, if he does not pay the penalty and gets
no punishment for his wrongdoing, but less wretched
if he pays the penalty and meets with requital
from gods and men.
pol. What a strange doctrine, Socrates, you are
trying to maintain !
soc. Yes, and I will endeavour to make you too,
my friend, maintain it with me : for I count you as
a friend. Well now, these are the points on which
we differ ; just examine them yourself. I think
I told you at an earlier stage that wrongdoing was
worse than being wronged.
pol. Certainly you did.
soc. And you thought that being wronged was
worse.
pol. Yes.
soc. And I said that wrongdoers were wretched,
and I
was refuted by you.
pol. Upon my word, yes.
soc. At least to your thinking, Polus.
pol. Yes, and true thinking too.
soc. Perhaps. But you said, on the other hand,
that wrongdoers are happy, if they pay no penalty.
347
PLATO
OCA. Tidw fxev oiv.
'Eya> 8c avrovs dOXuararovs
2Q. fop*, Tons'
8e SiSon-as' Siktjv ^ttoi'. /ôuAct kcu tovto eXey-
x'; ,
IK1A. AAA Tt Towr* eKelvov jfaXeirarrepov eo-rur,
a> StojcpaTe?, eeXeyan.
2Q. Ov orjra, a Il<3Ae, aAA' dSwarov to yap
dXrjdes ovSeirore eXeyêrai.
C nGA. Iltiis- Xeyeis; iav aouctuv SvQpuynos Xr/SSr
TvpawCSi CTrifiovXevaiv, Kal Xijtfrdels orpc/JAtorai
#ca* eicTe/iVTjTat *cai row? oijtdaXfiovs iKKarp-ai,
Kal aXXas 7roAAds icai pêydXas Kal irairo8a.ira.s Xu>-
/Ja? avros T XwfirjOeis Kal tovs aurov iiriBdji'
Trd&as re koi ywatKa to coôtov dvaaravpaj^fj
rj KaraiTLrTcadfj, ovtos evSaipoiearepo? eorai, f)
iav 8iatf>vyojv Tvpawos Karaxrrfj Kal dpûiv hr
nj TToXei 8ia/?i<5 ttoiwv o ti av f$ovXrp-ai, r)X<oro?
a>v Kal evSaipx>vi6p,evos mro twv ttoXltwv Kal
D twv aXXcov evwv; ravra Xeyeis dSuvarov etvai
egeXeyxeiv;
5Q.Mop/zoAt/rrg av, a> yewale IlouAe, Kal ovk
iXeyêiS' dpri 8e epaprvpov. opws 8e VTr6p.VTja6v
fie afiiKpov edv dSiKWS imfiovXevaiv Tvpawio'i,
elves;
TZywye.
n~.\.
zn. JLvoaifioveorepos fiev toivw ovSeirore earai
ovSerepos avruiv, ovre 6 Karetpyaaftevos T17V
Tvpawioa o8ikw& ovre 6 SiSou? 8iKrp>' hvolv yap
E adXloiv ev8a$fioveorepos p.ev ovk av elrf ddXuL-
repos pevroi 6 8uuf>evywv Kal Tvpawevons. tx
tovto, ui YlcjXe; yeX&s; dXXo av tovto etbw
348
GORGIAS
pol. Certainly.
soc. Whereas I say they are most wretched, and
those who pay the penalty, less so. Do you wish
to refute that as well ?
Pol. Why, that is still harder to refute, Socrates,
than the other !
soc. Not merely so, Polus, but impossible ; for
the truth is never refuted.
pol. How do you mean ? If a man be caught
criminally plotting to make himself a despot, and
he be straightway put on the rack and castrated
and have his eyes burnt out, and after suffering
himself, and seeing inflicted on his wife and children,
a number of grievous torments of every kind, he
be finally crucified or burnt in a coat of pitch, will
he be happier than if he escape and make himself
despot, and pass his life as the ruler in his city,
doing whatever he likes, and envied and con
gratulated by the citizens and the foreigners besides ?
Impossible, do you tell me, to refute that ?
soc. You are trying to make my flesh creep this
time, my spirited Polus, instead of refuting me ;
a moment ago you were for calling witnesses.
However, please refresh my memory a little :
"
criminally plotting to make himself a despot,"
you said ?
pol. I did.
soc. Then neither of them will ever be happier
than the other neither he who has unjustly com
passed the despotic power, nor he who pays the
penalty ; for of two wretched persons neither
can be happier ; but still more wretched is he who
goes scot-free and establishes himself as despot.
What is that I see, Polus ? You are laughing ?
349
PLATO
eXeyxov eaTiv, eneiSav tIs tl lttj], KaTayeXav,

iXeyxeiv 8e p.-q;
nnA. Ovk otet iêXrjXeyxdai, c3 HcoKpaTes, orav
roiavraXeyrjs, a ouSeij av (fnjoeiev dvOpdrnaiv; eirel
ipov Tiva tovtwvI.
2n. TQ IIcoAe, ovk elpd tcov ttoXitikcov, ko.1
irepvoi fiovXeveiv Xa.)(u>v, eneiSfj ij (f>vXrj hrpvra-
474 veve Kal eSet p,e emtfirj^lêiv, yeXcora napeZxov
/cat ovk rjmaTapyqv emi/jrf^lêw . firj ovv jur^Sc
vvv p,e KeXeve emtfirj<f>iêiv tovs napovrag, dXX'
el p/rf eêis tovtojv fieXTiio eXeyxov, onep vvv
eyw eXeyov, ep.ol iv ru> p,epet> napdSos, /cat
8fj
Treipaacu rov eXeyxov, olov eydi oi/xat helv etvat.

iy eva p,ev TTapaoxeaOai p,dprvpa
imoraf/KU, avTov npos ov dv p.01 Xoyos 17, tovs
6
8e 7roXXovs eaj xaipeiv, /cat eva emifir]<f>leiv im-
orap.ai, rols 8e ttoXXoZs oi8e 8iaXeyop.at,. Spa
ovv, StSoVat eXeyxov
el
B
eOeX-qoecs ev ra> p,epec

anoKpwopievos ra epundipieva.
S77
eydi yap olfun
Kal e/xe Kal oe /cat tovs dXXovs dvdpdnrovs to
dSt/ceti' rov a8iKeZa9ai KaKiov -qyeZoOai. Kal to
p,i) StSoVat 81k7]v tov StSovat.
riOA. ..'Eyeb 8e ye ovr' ep,e ovr'dXXov avdpdmaiv
ovoeva. eirei ov oeg-at av p,aXAov aoiKeiouai
iq
d8iKeZv.
2fl. Kat ov av /cat ol dXXot, -ndvTes.
y
iioa. IIoAAotJ ye Set, dXX' ovt' eyu> ovre cri)

ovr dXXos ov8els.
Socrates refers humorously to his noble act in refusing

1
to put to the vote an illegal proposal against the generals

who fought at Arginusae, 406 B.C. By saying " last year "
he fixes the supposed date of this conversation at 405 B.C.
350
GORGIAS
Here we have yet another form of refutation

when a statement is made, to laugh it down, instead
of disproving it !
pol. Do you not think yourself utterly refuted,
Socrates, when you make such statements as nobody
in the world would assent to ? You have only to
ask anyone of the company here.
soc. Polus, I am not one of your statesmen :
indeed, last year, when I was elected a member of
the Council, and, as my tribe held the Presidency,
I had to put a question to the vote, I got laughed
at for not understanding the procedure.1 So do
not call upon me again to take the votes of the
if,
company now ; but as said this moment, you

I
have no better disproof than those, hand the work

over to me in my turn, and try the sort of refutation
that think the case requires. For know how to
I
I
produce one witness in support of my state

ments, and that the man himself with whom
is
I
find myself arguing the many dismiss there
I
:
;
is also one whose vote know how to take, whilst

I
to the multitude have not a word to say. See

I
therefore if you will consent to be put to the proof

in your turn by answering my questions. For
I
think, indeed, that you and and the rest of

I
the world believe that doing wrong worse than

is
suffering it, and escaping punishment worse than

incurring it.
pol. And that neithernor anyone else in
I,
the world believes it. You, it seems, would choose

rather to suffer wrong than to do it.
soc. Yes, and so would you and everyone else.
pol. Far from it neither nor you nor anybody
I
;
else.
351
PLATO
C 2n. Ovkovv drroKpivfj;

nnA. Ilavt; fiev oSv Kal yap emOvp,co eloevai
o rl ttot epeis.
8ij
/xoi, lv' elSfjs, coanep
el
2n. Aeye av
e
&PX*}S ae i)pcoT(jiv norepov So/cet aoi, a> IldiAe,
KOLKiov etvai, to dSi/ceiv ro dSiKeladai;
?}
nnA. T6 dSi/ceiaflai ep.oi.ye.
2n. Ti 8e S?j; ataxiov noTepov to dSiKelv
77
to aSiKelodai; anoKplvov.
nnA. To aot/cetv.
2n. Ovkovv /cat kolkiov, elnep aioxiov.
nnA. "H/ctord ye.
2n. Mavddvw ov ravrov r/yij av, at? eot/cay,
/caAoV re /cat dyadov /cat /ca/cdv /cat alaxpdv.
D
nnA. 0i5 S^ra.

2n. Ti 8e toSc; to /caAd Trdvra, otov /cat
aoipLora /cat
^ca/naTa /cat ax^p-ovra /cat <f>covds
Kal imr'qhevp.aTa, eis ouSev aTrofS\eTTa>v /caAetj
e/caoroTe /caAa; otov TtpGyrov rd adip.ara ra /caAd
ou^t ^Tot /caTa t^v xPeâv Aeyety /caAd etvat, 77/>o?
o aV eKaorov )(prjcrL[jLov r), Trpos tovto, rj Kara
qhovrjv rwa, eav ev ra> decopeladai, âtpetv Trotij
toi)? Oewpovvras; eêis ti octos tovtojv Aeyetv
7rept acop,aros KaXXovs;
E
nnA. 0i5/c eâ).

2n. 0i5/cow /cat TaAAa ndvra ovrat Kal arxVfMara
/cat ^paljiiaTa8ta ijSovrp Tti>a Sia axf>e\lav
^
81' dp*j>0Tepa /caAd npocrayopeveis

;
77
nnA. Eya>ye.
2n. Ou /cat to.? <f>a>vds /cat Ta /caTa. tt)v juotj-
oiK-qv itavra uxravrcos
;
352
GORGIAS
soc. Then will you answer ?

pol. To be sure I will, for indeed I am eager to
know what on earth you will say.
soc. Well then, so that you may know, tell me, just
as though I were asking you all over again, which of
the two seems to you, Polus, to be the worse
doing wrong or suffering it ?
pol. Suffering it, I say.
soc. Now again, which is fouler doing wrong or
suffering it ? Answer.
pol. Doing it.
soc. And also more evil, if fouler.
pol. Not at all.
soc. I see : you hold, apparently, that fair and
good are not the same, nor evil and foul.
pol. Just so.
soc. But what of this ? All fair things, like bodies
and colours and figures and sounds and observances
is it according to no standard that you call these
fair in each case ? Thus in the first place, when
you say that fair bodies are fair, it must be either
in view of their use for some particular purpose that
each may serve, or in respect of some pleasure
arising when, in the act of beholding them, they
cause delight to the beholder. Have you any
description to give beyond this of bodily beauty ?
pol. I have not.
soc. And so with all the rest in the same way,
whether they be figures or colours, is it for some
pleasure or benefit or both that you give them the
" "
name of fair ?
pol. It is.
soc. And sounds also, and the effects of music,
are not these all in the same case ?
vol. v 2 a 353
PLATO
nnA. Nai.
2n. Kai fxrjv rd ye Kara tovs vofjuovs Kai to
em.Trjoevp.aTa ov Srjrrov cktos tovtojv ecm, to.
KaXd, rov r) d)<f>eXip,a elvai r) ijSea r) dp,<f>oTepa.
nnA. Ovk e/xoiye SoKet.
475 2n. Ovkovv Kal to t6~>v naOrjfidTcov koXXos
(haavTws ;
nnA. ye- Kai KaXais ye iw opl^rj, w
IldVu
Sco/cpare?, rjSovfj T /<rat ayadcp 6pi6p.evos ro KaAoV.
2n. Ou/fow to alo~xpov ivavrio), Xvirrj tc
Kat KCLKU);
nnA. 'Avay/oj.
2n. "Orar dpa Svoii" /caAoir ddrepov koXXiov
t<3 irepa) tovtoiv
rj,
dp,<f>OTepois vrrepfiaXXov
r)
r)
KaXXiov eoTW, rjTOi rjSovfj ojêAia dpxporepois-

rj
r)
nnA. dpi; ye.
II
2n. Kai oVav 8e Swip aloxpoiv to erepov

817
ijtoi Xvtttj Ka.Ka> vrrepftdXXov alaxiov

B
aioîov
rj
77,
eorar ovk avayKTj;
rj
nnA. Nat.
iw toC
817
2n. Oepe 817, tto)? eXeyero 7repi

aSiKeif ai d8iKeia#ai; ov/c eAeye? to p.ev dSi-
Keladai KaKiov elvai, to 8e dSiKeiv aioîov;
nnA. "EAeyov.
2n. Ou/cow elrrep aicrîov to dSiKeiv tov
dSiKeioâi, 77T01 XvirijpoTepov eari Kai Xvrrrj
VTTepfidXXov aiaxtov &V kolkw d/xôrepois'
;
^
e^V
r)
01; Kal tovto dvdyKrj;

nnA. 11(3? yap ov;
Sn. YlpaJTOV p.ev
817
OKei/ia>p.e9a, apa Xvrrrj

vrrepfldXXei to doiKeiv tou dSi/ceicâi, Kai dAyoucn
C
ji&XXov ol dSiKOVVTes ol dSiKou/xevoi;

r)
354
GORGIAS
pol. Yes.
soc. And further, in all that belongs to laws and
" "
observances, surely the fairness of them cannot
lie beyond those limits of being either beneficial
or pleasant or both.
pol. Ithink not.
"
soc. And is it not just the same with the fair
"
ness of studies also ?
pol. Doubtless ; and this time, Socrates, your
definition is quite fair, when you define what is fair
by pleasure and good.
soc. And foul by their opposites, pain and evil ?
pol. That needs must follow.
soc. Thus when of two fair things one is fairer, the
cause is that it surpasses in either one or both of these
effects, either in pleasure, or in benefit, or in both.
pol. Certainly.
soc. And again, when one of two foul things is
fouler, this will be due to an excess either of pain
or of evil : must not that be so ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Come then, what was it we heard just now
about doing and suffering wrong ? Were you not
saying that suffering wrong is more evil, but doing
it fouler ?
pol. I was.
soc. Well now, if doing wrong is fouler than
suffering it, it is either more painful, and fouler by
an excess of pain or evil or both ; must not this
also be the case ?
pol. Yes, of course.
soc. Then let us first consider if doing wrong
exceeds suffering it in point of pain if those who
do wrong are more pained than those who suffer it.
355
PLATO
nnA. OvSa/Mais, c5 HcoKpares, tovto ye.

2n. Ovk dpa Xvtttj ye virepexei.
nnA. Ov Sijra.
2n. Ovkow el fir/ XvTTrf, dp,<f>oTepois fiev ovk
av Ti virepfldXXoi.
nnA. Ov (ftaiverai.
2fl. Ovkow tw erepa) AeiVerat.
nnA. Nat.
2n. Toi KaKu>.
nnA. EoiKey.
Ou/cow KaKU) inepfiaXXov to doiKelv kclkwv
2n.
av eli] tov adiKeladai.
on.
8-q
nnA. ArjXov
D 2n. "AAAo n ouV vtto [lev twv ttoXXcov avOpdiirwv
Kal vtto crov d>p,oXoyeiTO r)p,lv ev too epmpooftev
Xpovcp alo~)(iov etvai to ahiKetv tov dhiKeladai
;
nnA. Nai.
sn. Nw 8e ye kolklov e<pavrj.
nnA. "Eoi/cev.
2n. Aeaio av oSv av p.aXXov to k&kiov /ecu to
atcr^tov drTt tou tjttov; fxrj oKvei airoKpivaadai,
IlaiAe- oiSev yap ftXafi-qcrr)' dXXd yewalats to>
<2
X6yq> d\o~irep larpat Trapeôiv diroKpivov, Kal

rj
p/T) a epojTO).
rj
<f>adi
nnA. 'AAA' ovk av oeâipvqv, u> TiWKpaTes.
E
2n. "AAAos ns dvdpwTrojv;

8
e
nnA. Ov /ioi SoKel /caT<x ye tovtov tov Xoyov.

5n. AAqurj apa eyat eAeyov, on ovt av eym
out av au out aAAoy ouoei? avupcoTrajv oegaiT
av p,aXXov adiKeZv dSiKeio-flai* ko.ki.ov yap
>}
Tvyxdvei ov.
nnA. OaiVeTai.
356
GORGIAS
pol. Not so at all, Socrates.
soc. Then it does not surpass in pain.
pol. No, indeed.
soc. And so, if not in pain, it can no longer be
said to exceed in both.
pol. Apparently.
soc. It remains, then, that it exceeds in the other.
pol. Yes.
soc. In evil.
pol. So it seems.
soc. Then it is by an excess of evil that doing
wrong is fouler than suffering it.
pol. Yes, obviously.
soc. Now it is surely admitted by the mass of
mankind, as it was too by you in our talk a while
ago, that doing wrong is fouler than suffering it.
pol. Yes.
soc. And now it has been found to be more evil.
pol. So it seems.
soc. Then would you rather have the evil and
foul when it is more than when it is less ? Do not
shrink from answering, Polus ; you will get no hurt
by it : but submit yourself bravely to the argument,
as to a doctor, and reply yes or no to my question.
I
pol. Why, should not so choose, Socrates.
soc. And would anybody else in the world ?
pol. I think
not, by this argument at least.
soc. Then I spoke the truth when I said that
neither you nor anyone else in the world would
choose to do wrong rather than suffer it, since it
really is more evil.
pol. Apparently.
357
PLATO
SCl. 'Opas ovv, w IlaiAe, o eXeyxps rrapa rov

eXeyxov Trapaf$aXX6p,evos ort, ovSev eoiKev, dXXa
cot fj,ev ol dXXoi irdvres ofioXoyovai ttXt)v efjiov,
e/xot Se av itjapiceZs els d>v jlaoVo? /cat 6jj,oXoya>v
476 /cat p,aprvpu)v , /cat eyd) oe p,6vov eTtu\iT)$ii,o)v rovs
dXXovs ecu âipeiv. /cat rovro p,ev rjp.lv ovtojs
exerw fiera rovro Se irepl oS to Sevrepov rjfi<f>-
eofirjT'qoap.ev OKeificbfieda, ro
doiKovvra StSoVat
Slktjv apa /jueyiarov rebv /ca/cdiv eariv, at? av
utov, rj fieZôv ro [it) StSoVat, coy av eyeb cpp,T]v.
OKOTTW'fieBa Se rfjoe' to StSoVat Biktjv /cat to
KoXdêadai St/cata/y d8iKovvra apa to avro
KaXeZs;
nnA. Eycoye.
B 2fl. "Eêt? ovv Xeyeiv, a>? ot5î rd ye St'/cata
wavTa KaXa eari, Kad oaov St'/cata; /cat Sta-
OKetftd/xevos ehte.
nnA. 'AAAa /xot So/cet, to Scu/cpaTes.
/cat rdSe- dpa ei ti? ti
Siy
2n. S/coVet wote!,

avdyKT] ti eivai /cat irdaxov vitb tovtov rov
ttolovvtos
;
nnA. "E/notye So/cet.

2n. *Apa rovro ndo)(ov, o to ttolovv rroieZ,
/cat roiovrov, otov TToiel to ttolovv; Xeyui Se ro
ToioVSe* et ris rvnrei, avdyKT) ti TVTrreaOat
;
nnA. 'AvdyKT].
2,0. Kat et a<f>68pa TVTrrei rayy o rvmoiV,
t)
.
outo) /cat to rviTTop-evov rvrrreoOai

C
nnA. Nat.
2n. TotouTov apa irddos ra> rvrrrofievu} eariv,
OLOV aV TO TV7TTOV TTOlfj
;
nnA. Haw ye.

358
GORGIAS
soc. So you see, Polus, that when one proof is

contrasted with the other they have no resemblance,
but whereas you have the assent of every one else
except myself, I am satisfied with your sole and
single assent and evidence, and I take but your vote
only and disregard the rest. Now let us leave this
matter where it stands, and proceed next to examine
the second part on which we found ourselves at
issue whether for a wrongdoer to pay the penalty
is the greatest of evils, as you supposed, or to escape
it is a greater, as I on my side held. Let us look
at it this way : do you call paying the just penalty,
and being justly punished, for wrongdoing the same
thing ?
pol. I do.
soc. And can you maintain that all just things
are not fair, in so far as they are just ? Consider
well before you speak.
pol. No, I think they are, Socrates.
soc. Then take another point : if a man does
anything, must there be something which is also
acted upon by this doer of the thing ?
pol. I think
so.
soc. And does it suffer what the doer does, and
is the effect such as the agent's action makes it ? I
mean, for example, when one strikes a blow some
thing must needs be struck ?
pol. It
must.
soc. And if the striker strikes hard or quick, the
thing struck is struck in the same way ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Hence the effect in the thing struck is such
as the striker makes it ?
pol. Certainly.
359
I PLATO
2n. Oi5kow Kal el Kaei rty, dvdyKrj ti KaeaOai;
nnA. Iltoj yap ov;
2n. Kal el &<f>68pa ye tcdei rj dXyeivws, ovtoj
Kaeodai to Kaopevov <bs av to kolov kotj;
nnA. Hdvv ye.
2n. Ovkovv Kal el repvei tis, 6 avros Xoyos;
Te/j,veT<u ydp ti.
nnA. Nai.
2n. Kal el p.eya ye rj fiadii to Tprjpa rj aXyeivov,
D toiovtov rpfjpa repverai to Tep.vop.evov, olov to
rep.vov Tepvei;
nnA. Oatverai.
o dpri
Srj
el
2n. YivXXrjfio^qv opa opoXoyets,
eXeyov, rrepl irdvTOJv, olov av irotjj to ttoiovv,
toiovtov to Trdcrxpv trdcrêiv.
nnA. 'AAA' 6p.oXoyu>.
TovtojvopoXoyovpevaiv, to Slxrjv S180-
8r)
2n.
vai TtoTepov rtdcrêw rl eariv rrotelv;
rj
nnA. 'AvdyKTj, Sci/cparej, rrdo~)(e<.v.

c5
2n. Ovkovv vtto twos ttoiovvtos

;
nnA. Ilais ydp ov; vtto ye tov koXclôvtos.

2n. '0 8e opdws KoXd^cov Si/cai'ty? KoAaei;
E
nnA. Nat.
2n. Ai/caia noiajv ov;
rj
nnA. Aifcata.
Sn. Ovkovv KoXaôpevos Si/ctji/ SiSou? StVata
6
rrdo~)(ei;
nnA. OaiWrai.
2n. Ta 8e Si'/caia ttov KaXd cbp.oX6yrjTai
;
nnA. Hdvv ye.

2n. Tovtcuv dpa pkv irot,et KaXd, 8e irao-gei,
6
6
KoXaZ,6pevos .
6
360
GORGIAS
soc. And so again, if one burns, something must

be burnt ?
pol. Yes, of course.
soc. And if one burns severely or sorely, the thing
burnt is burnt according as the burner burns it ?
pol. Certainly.
soc. And again, if one cuts, the same may be
said ? For something is cut.
pol. Yes.
soc. And if the cut is large or deep or sore, the cut
made in the thing cut is such as the cutter cuts it ?
pol. Apparently.
soc. Then putting it all in a word, see if you agree
that what I was just saying applies to all cases
that the patient receives an effect of the same kind
as the agent's action.
pol. I do agree.
soc. Then this being admitted, is paying the
penalty suffering something, or doing it ?
pol. Suffering it must be, Socrates.
soc. And at the hands of an agent ?
pol. Yes, of course ; at the hands of the punisher.
soc. And he who punishes aright punishes justly ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Doing what is just, or not ?
pol. What is just.
soc. And he who pays the penalty by being
punished suffers what is just ?
pol. Apparently.
soc. And what is just, I think we have agreed, is
fair ?
pol. Certainly.
soc. Then of these two, the one does what is fair
and the other, he who is punished, suffers it.
361
PLATO
nnA. Nat.
477 2n. Ovkovv etvep /caAa, dyadd; tj yap rjoea
rj <L<j>eAifj,a.
nnA. AvdyK-q.
2n. 'Ayadd dpa 7rdo~)(ei. 6 SiKrjv oioovs;
nnA. "Eot/cev.
2n. 'OêAeirat apa;
nnA. Nat.
2n. ''Apa -qvTTep iycb VTToXapL^dvw rr/v dxfreAiav;
jSeAri'tuj' tijv ipvxty ylyverai, einep Si/caitu? /co-
Aaerat;
nnA. Et/cdy ye.
2n. Ka/cta? dpa ûpfij? ci7raA/\aTTeTai o SiKrjv
SiSovs;
nnA. Nat.
2n. TAp' ovv tov p,eylorov a.7raAAaTTerai /ca/cou;
B tSSe Se CKOTTei' ev \prjp,aTWV KaTaaKevfj avdpojirov
/ca/ctav dXXrjv rivd evopas fj neviav;
nnA. Owe, aAAd nevlav.
2n. Tt 8' iv od>p,aTOs KaracrKevfj; /ca/ctW dv
<f>rj(rais dadeveiav etvat /cat voaov teal ata\os /cat
rd Toiavra;
nnA. "Eycoye.
2n. CW/cow /cat eV tpvxj] Trovrjpcav f)yf\ rtva
elvai;
nnA. Ilw? yap ov;
2n. Taimji' ouj> cw/c dSiKiav /caAet? /cat d/xadiav
/cat SetAtav /cat to. roiavra;
nnA. Ilavi; yaev ouv.
C 2n. Ovkovv \pi]pLdrcov /cat aa>p.aros Kat *ftvx']s'
rpiiov ovrcov, Tpnrdg eiprjicas irovrjpias, irevlav,
voaov, dSt/ctav;
362
GORGIAS
pol. Yes.
soc. And so, if fair, good ? For that is either
pleasant or beneficial.1
pol. It must be so.
soc. So he who pays the penalty suffers what is
good ?
pol. It
seems so.
soc. Then he is benefited ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Is it the benefit I imagine that he becomes
better in soul if he is justly punished ?
pol. Quite likely.
soc. Then is he who pays the penalty relieved
from badness of soul ?
pol. Yes.
soc. And so relieved from the greatest evil ?
Look at it this way ; in a man's pecuniary resources
do you perceive any other badnejs than poverty ?
pol. No, only poverty.
soc. And what in his bodily resources ? You
would say that badness there is weakness or disease
or ugliness or the like ?
pol. I would.
soc. And in soul too you believe there is a certain
wickedness ?
pol. Of course.
soc. And do you not call this injustice, ignorance,
cowardice, and so forth ?
pol. Certainly I do.
soc. So now in property, body, and soul, these
three, you have mentioned three vices poverty,
disease, and injustice ?
1
As was agreed above, 474 d, e.
363
PLATO
nnA. Not.
2fl. Ti? ovv rovTwv rcov Trovqpiwv atcr^tcmj;
oi>X 17
dSt/a'a /cat avXkr$6-r)V rj rrjs fax^S Trovrjpia;
nnA. TloAv ye.
2n. Ei alaxlarr}, Kal /ca/a'erTTi
817
;
nnA. no)?, w TiWKpares, Xeyeis;
2n. 'OSr del ro ataîo-TOf 177-01 Xutty/v p.eyiaTt]v
Trapexov fiAdfirjv atoxicrrov ioTW
rj
rj
dp,<f>0Tepa
e/c tujv ojp,oXoyrjp,evcov ev rep ep/npooftev
.
nnA. MdAtora.
2X1. AMryyrrov ê aSt/aa /cat avpvno.ua. ifivxrjs
8rj
novrjpla vvv <bp,oA6yr]Tat. r/puv;

D
nnA. 'D.p,oX6yrjTai yap.

2n. 0i3/cow dviapoTaroV cart /cat dvtg. vrrep-
7}
fidXXov aloxiOTOV tovtcov earlv /SAd/fy dp,<f>6-
77
7}
repa;
nnA. 'Avdy/CT;..
2n. TAo' ouv dAyetvoTe/3c5v eon rov -neveaQat.
Kal Kap,vew to dSiKov etvai /cat aKoXaarov Kal
SeiXov Kal dp,adfj;
nnA. Ovk ep.01.ye 80/cei, u> YicoKpares, and
tovtojv ye.
2n. 'YirepcfrveZ nvl dpa cos p,eydXr) PXd/3r) /cat
KaKut 8avp,aaup VTrepfidXXovaa rdXXa n 7-77? 'f'vxrjs
TTOvrjpia aXaxiarv ÔTl wdVrtoi', 67761817 oi5/c dAy^-
E
SoVt ye, ci? 06s Xoyos.

d
nnA. OatWrat.
'AAAd p,r\v irov to ye p,eyiaTTj /SAd/S^
2n.
vrrepfiaAXov p,eyiorov dv KaKov eirj t&v ovtojv.
nnA. Nat.
2n. 'H
dSt/a'a dpa Kal d/coAaox'a /cat dAAii
17
17
tf'vx'fjs TTovrjpLa p,eyiffTov tow ovtojv /ca/cdv eariv;

364
GORGIAS
pol. Yes.
soc. Then which of these vices is the foulest ?
Is it not injustice in short, the vice of the soul ?
pol. Far the foulest.
soc. And if foulest, then also most evil ?
pol. How do you mean, Socrates ?
soc. Just this : the foulest is foulest in each case
because it produces the greatest pain or harm or
both ; this follows from our previous admissions.
pol. Quite so.
soc. And foulest of all, we have just agreed, is
injustice and, in general, vice of soul ?
pol. Yes, we have.
soc. So then either it is most painful, that is,
foulest of these vices by an excess of painfulness, or
else of harmfulness, or in both ways ?
pol. Necessarily.
soc. Then do you think that being unjust,
licentious, cowardly, and ignorant is more painful
than being poor and sick ?
pol. No, I do not, Socrates, from what we have
said.
soc. Portentous then must be the extent of harm,
and astonishing the evil, by which the soul's vice
exceeds all the others so as to be foulest of all,
since it is not by pain, on your view of the
matter.
pol. Apparently.
soc. But further, I suppose, whatever has an excess
of harm in the greatest measure, must be the greatest
evil in the world.
pol. Yes.
soc. So injustice, licentiousness, and in general,
vice of soul, are the greatest evils in the world ?
365
PLATO
nnA. (balverai.
zn. Tt's ovv Tex^fj Trevias dVaAAdTTet; ov
nnA. Nat.
2n. Tis 8e voaov; ovk larpiKi);
nnA. 'Avdy/oj.
478 2n. Ti? 8e nov-qplas /cat dSt/aas; t jlitj outcos
etnropeis, (LSe a/coVer ttoZ ayofiev /cat irapa Tivas
tovs KapvovTas ra ffcu/xara;
nfiA. Ilapd tovs laTpovs, co 2ai/cpaT?.
2n. II ot Se tovs dSiKOVvras /cat tovs d/coAa-
crraivovTas ;
nnA. Ilapd tovs SiKaords Aeyeis;
2n. Ovkovv SiKrjv StoaovTas;
nnA. Qh)id.
2n. *Ap' our oi; St/catocrwTj twi xpu>p,evoi
KoXdt,ovaiv ol 6p6ws KoAdôvres;
nnA. AtJAov 817.
2n. XpTjpaTto-Ti/c^ pev dpa nevias d/TraXXaTTei,
B tarpi/o) 8e vocrou, St/C7j 8e d/coAacrtas /cat dSt/a'as.
nnA. OatVeTat.
2n. Tt ofiv tovtcov /cdAAioroV icmv [cov Aeyets]1;
nnA. Tlvcov Aeyeis;
2n. XpTjpaTioTi/c^s, tarpi/ojs, 81/ajs.
nnA. IloAu 8icuj)epei, a> EaWpares, 17 8t'/oj.
2n. Oi5/cot7v au tjtoi r]8ovr)V TrAeiorrfv noieZ rj
<l)<f>eAiav r/ dp<^6Vepa, etnep koAAiotov
icmv;
nnA. Nat.
2n. Ap ow to idTpeveouai rjOv ecm, /cat
Xalpovoiv ol la.Tpevop.evoi;
nnA. Ou/c epotye 80/cet.
1
dv X^yeis seel. Hermann.
366
GORGIAS
pol. Apparently.,
soc. Now what is the art that relieves from poverty?
Is it not money-making ?
pol. Yes.
soc. And what from disease ? Is it not medicine ?
pol. It must
be.
soc. And what from wickedness and injustice ?
Ifyou are not ready for that offhand, consider it thus :
whither and to whom do we take those who are in
bodily sickness ?
pol. To the doctor, Socrates.
soc. And whither the wrongdoers and libertines ?
pol. To the law-court, do you mean ?
soc. Yes, and to pay the penalty ?
pol. I agree.
soc. Then is it not by employing a kind of justice
that those punish who punish aright ?
pol. Clearly so.
soc. Then money-making relieves us from poverty,
medicine from disease, and justice from licentiousness
and injustice.
pol. Apparently.
soc. Which then is the fairest of these things ?
pol. Of what things, pray ?
soc. Money-making, medicine, justice.
pol. Justice, Socrates, is far above the others.
soc. Now again, if it is fairest, it causes either
most pleasure or benefit or both.
pol. Yes.
soc. Well then, is it pleasant to be medically
treated, and do those who undergo such treatment
enjoy it ?
pol. I do not think so.
367
PLATO
2n. AAA axfxXipov ye. tj yap;
C nnA. Not.
2n. MeyaAot; yap kokov aTroXXoTrerai, aJerre
AuaireAci vopelvai ttjv aAyjjSdva cat tJyiet efvat.
nnA. ITaij yap ov;
2Q. A/> ow oxrrws 5v nepl otopa evSaifxove-
araros avBpunros etr), larpevopevos, rj p.Tj8e
Kajxvaiv dpxqv;
nnA. ArjXov ort p.r)8e Kapwcov.
2a. Ov yap tovt'
rjv
evSaipovia, (is eouce,
kokov a7raAAayjj, aAAa ttjv ap^v prjoe icrrjais.
nr.A. "Eort ravra.
D 2fl. Tt 8e; adXuIrrepos irorepos Svolv i\6vroi.v
kokov eir' h> owpari. evr h> foxf}, larpevop^vos
Kal airaXXoTTopevos tov kokov, pr) larpevo-
6
r)
pevos, \utv 84;
nnA. OatveToi pot pi] larpevopevos .
6
2n. Ovkovv to Sacrjv StSoi'at peyiarov kokov

airaXXayrj rjv, irovqpias;
nnA. *Hv yap.
2fl. Haxfrpovitei yap ttov Kal SiKcuorepovs iroiel
Kal larpucrf yiyverai TTOvr\plas 8lierf.
rj
nr..\. Nat.
2fl. EuSat/tweoraTOS pev apa pi)
E
\oiv
6
kokLov ev >pvxfj> 4-7Ti8r) tovto pAywnov tcSv

kokG>v i<l>dv7).
nnA. ArjXov 877.
2Cl. Aevrepos Stjttov OTToXXaTTopevos.
6
nnA. "Eoi/cev.
2n. Ovtos vovderovpevos re Kal em-
6
8
r\v
TrXrjTTopevos Kal Si'ktjv 8t8ovs.
nnA. Nat.
368
GORGIAS
soc. But it is beneficial, is it not ?

pol. Yes.
soc. Because one is relieved of a great evil, and
hence it is worth while to endure the pain and be well.
pol. Of course.
soc. Is this then the happiest state of body for a
man to be in that of being medically treated
or that of never being ill at all ?
pol. Clearly, never being ill.
soc. Yes, for what we regarded as happiness, it
seems, was not this relief from evil, but its non-
acquisition at any time.
pol. That is so.
soc. Well now, which is the more wretched of two
persons who have something evil either in body or
in soul, he who is medically treated and is relieved
of the evil, or he who is not treated and keeps it ?
pol. To my thinking, he who is not treated.
soc. And we found that paying the penalty is a
relief from the greatest evil, wickedness ?
pol. We did.
soc. Because, I suppose, the justice of the court
reforms us and makes us juster, and acts as a
medicine for wickedness.
pol. Yes.
soc. Happiest therefore is he who has no vice in
his soul, since we found this to be the greatest of evils.
pol. Clearly so.
soc. Next after him, I take it, is he who is relieved
of it.
pol. So it seems.
soc. And that was the man who is reproved,
reprimanded, and made to pay the penalty.
pol. Yes.
vol. v 2 b 369
PLATO
5n. Kd/ctara apa
?J
o eôw [dot/aW]1 /cat
ju,t) aTTaXXaTTOfievos .
iim. Oaiverai.
2ft.Ou/cow ovro? Tuyâvet tov o? av ra /xeyiora
ahiKwv /cat xpdipevos peyloTr) dSt/a'a oianpd-
r]Ta.i ware p-qre vovderelaOai /xifre /coAdecr#ai
479 A"?Te Si'/ctjv StSoVat, woirep av </>fjs 'ApêXaov
TrapeoKevaodai /cat tous dAAous Tvpdwovs #cai
prjTopas /cat Swdoray;

IK1A. "Eot/cev.
2n. SêSov yap 7rou ovtoi, a dpiare, to avro
ZianeiTpaypevoL elai, wairep av Tty toi? peyi-
el
otois voarjpaai, avviaxopevos hiairpdâno /lit)
StSoVat hiiajv tcov Trepl to au>pa dpapn)p.dTaiv
tols larpols prjoe larpeveadai, <f>of$ovpevos 01a-
,
rrepavei 7701?, to Kaeadai /cat to repveaOai, otl
dAyetvdv. ou 80/cet /cat ctoi ot/rcus;
B
77
nnA. "E/u.otye.
2fi. Ayvoaw ye, to? eot/cev, otoV eariv vyieta
-q
/cat dpeTj] ocoparos. KtvSvvevovai yap e/c raji"
vw ijju.ti' cibpoXoyrjpevcav toiovtov ti iroieiv /cat ot
tt)v Siktjv <f>evyovTes, to IlaiAe, to dXyeivov avrov
Kadopav, npos 8e to <h<j>e\ipov tv<J>\ws e%eiv /cai
ayvoew', ocraj aOXicoTepov eon prj vyiovs ocopaTos
pi] vyiel tpvxfj avvoiKelv dAAd aadpa /cat dSt'/cai
,
/cat dvoolip- 59ev /cat ttoiovoiv ware St/ojv

C
77&V
yur) StSoVat JU.17S' dTraAAdTTearflat tow peyiarov

/ca/cov, /cat xptfpara TrapaoKeva6pevoi /cat <f>iAovs
Kal ottcos av o5ow c&s mdavcoTaTOi Aeyeiv. el 8e
Ild/Ae, ap' aloddv-Q
(3
rjpelg dAr]8fj (hpoXoyrjKapev

,
dSucioK om. Stobaeus.

1
370
GORGIAS
soc. Hence the worst life is led by him who has

the vice and is not relieved of it.
pol. Apparently.
soc. And this is the man who in committing the
greatest wrongs and practising the greatest in-
j usticehas contrived to escape reproof and chastise
ment and penalty alike, as you say Archelaus has
succeeded in doing, and the rest of the despots
and orators and overlords ?
pol. So it seems.
soc. Because, I conceive, my excellent friend,
what these persons have contrived for themselves
is very much as though a man who was the
victim of the worst diseases should contrive not
to submit to the doctor's penalty for his bodily
transgressions and take the prescribed treatment,
from a childish fear of cautery or incision, as being
so painful. Or do you not agree to this view
of it?
pol. I do.
soc. Since he was ignorant, it would seem, of the
virtue of bodily health and fitness. For it is very
probable, from what we have just agreed, that some
thing like this is done also by those who evade their
due penalty, Polus ; they perceive its painfulness, but
are blind to its benefits, and are unaware how much
more wretched than lack of health in the body it is
to dwell with a soul that is not healthy, but corrupt,
unjust, and unholy ; and hence it is that they do all
they can to avoid paying the penalty and being
relieved of the greatest of evils, by providing them
selves with money and friends and the ability to
excel in persuasive speech. But if what we have
agreed is true, Polus, do you observe the con
371
PLATO
-ra avfifSalvovTa e/c tov Xoyov; r) fSovXei avX-
Xoyiawfieda avrd;
nnA. Ei fir) aoi ye dXXcos So/cet.
2n. A.p ovv ovfijiaivei fieyioTov kolkov r)
aSiKta /cat to d8i/ceiv;
nnA. OatVerat ye.
D SO. Kal
fir)v d77aAAayij ye e<f>dvrj rovrov tov
/ca/cov to SiKrjv StSoVat;
nnA. KivSwevet.
sn. To Se ye ^17 StSoVat ififiovr) tov /ca/cou;
nnA. Nat.
5n. Aevrepov dpa earl tcov Kahccov fieyeOet to
aSt/cetv to Se dSt/cowra fir) StSoVat Si'/ojv Trai'Tcov
fiiyiarov re KCtl rrpcoTOV KaKcov necbvKev.
nnA. "Eot/cev.
2n. *Ao' ow Trepl tovtov, <L <f>LXe, r)fKJ>o-^r]-
Trjaafiev, av
fiev tov 'ApêXaov evSaipiovC^cov
E tov to, fieyiara doiKovvra oiKrjv ovSefilav StSoVra,
eyai oe TowavTiov oiofievos, eir ApxeAaos eir
aAAos dvdpcbrrcov ootioovv fir) SiScoox SiK-qv dSiKcov,
tovtco irpocrrfKeiv dOXlco etvai SiacfiepovTcos tcov
dXXwv dvOpcoTTCov, /cat del tov oSikovvto. tov
dSiKOVfievov ddXccorepov etvai /cat tov fir) SiSoVra
SiKrjv tov 8l86vtos; ov tout ra vrr efiov
rjv
Xeyofieva;
nnA. Nat.
2n. Qvkovv drroSeSeLKTai on dXrjOr) eAe'yero;
nnA. 3>aiveTai.
480 2n. Efev ei o^v raura dXrjOrj, at IlcuAe,
8:7
ti'j fieydXrj XPeâ e'"r' ^S pr/ropiKrjs; Set ;uev

77
372
GORGIAS
sequences of our argument ? Or, if you like, shall

we reckon them up together ?
pol. Yes, if you do not mind.
soc. Then does it result that injustice and wrong
doing is the greatest evil ?
pol. Yes, apparently.
soc. And further, it appeared that paying the
penalty is a relief from this evil ?
pol. It looks like it.
soc. Whereas not paying it is a retention of the
evil in us ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Thus wrongdoing is second of evils in great
ness ; but to do wrong and not pay the penalty is
the greatest and takes the first place among all
evils.
pol. It seems so.
soc. Well now, my friend, was this the point at
issue between us, that you counted Archelaus, who
did the greatest wrong, happy because he paid no
penalty, whilst I
on the contrary thought that any
one whether Archelaus or any other person you
please who pays no penalty for the wrong he has
done, is peculiarly and pre-eminently wretched
among men, and that it is always the wrongdoer
who is more wretched than the wronged, and the
unpunished than the punished ? Is not this what
I stated ?
pol. Yes.
soc. Then has it not been proved that this was a
true statement ?
pol. Apparently.
soc. Very well : so if this is true, Polus, what is
the great use of rhetoric ? For you see by what
373
PLATO
avrov eavrdv
8r/
yap e/c ru>v vvv wp,oXoy-qp,ev(jiv
p.dXiora (f>vXdrriv ottojs p,r) dSi/oôei, d>y Ikclvov
kclkov eovra. ov yap;
TinA. Ilavu ye.
2n. 'Edv Se ye
0.81/0707; avros dAAo? tis
7}
1}
t5v av Krjhr]Tai, avrov eKovra levai e/cewre, dirov
a>? Taîora Saiaei oIktjv, rrapd rov oiKOcrrtfv,
rov tarpov, OTrevSovrA orrios p,r)
B
cjOTrep Trapa
to
'
eyxpovicrdev voarîa rrjs dSi/a'a? vttovXov rrjv
nofqoei Kal dvlarov
>
ipvxrjv ttcos Xeya>p.ev,
fj
riaiAe, elrrtep to. irporepov p,evei rjp,iv 6/j.oXoyrj-
p.ara; ovk avayKT) ravra eiceivois ovr at p.ev
avpiôjvelv, dXXcos 8e /X17;
nnA. Ti yap <f>a>p.ev, w YiKpares;
S17
2n. Em p.ev dpa to a-TToXoyeiadai vnep rrjs

dSi/a'a? rrjs avrov yovecov eraipuiv ttoiScov
77
r/
r/
narplhos dBiKovarjs ov ^pôr/io? ov&ev prjro-
q
r/
piKT] rjp,iv, a> llwAe, ei p/q et ti? viroAapoi em

rovvavriov Karr\yopeiv 8etv p.aXiara p,ev eavrov,
C
eweira 8e Kal tojv oi/ceuov /cat ru)v dXXajv, o? dv

del TUJv <j>LXo)v Tvyxdvr) dSiKwv, Kal p,r) d-no-
Kpvirreadai, dXX' els to <j>avepov ayew to d8iKiqp.a,
Iva 8<2 SIkyjv Kal vyirjs yevqrai, avayKaZ,eiv Se
Kal avrov /cat rovs dXXovs p.r/ a7ro8eiAi.dV, dAAd
Trapexet,v p,vaavra Kal dv8pelcos, a>oirep repuveiv
Kal Kaeiv larpw, to dyadov Kal KaXov 8idjKovra,
p,T] VTToXoyit,6p,evov to dXyewov, edv p.ev ye TrXrjyajv
TV-mew
rrapexovra, edv Se
j5>
D
aia rjSiKTjKcbs
SeoyxoO, 8eXv, edv 8e r)p,ias, aTrorivovra, edv Se
<j>vyrjs, (f>evyovra, edv Se davdrov, dnodvrjaKovra,
374
GORGIAS
we have just agreed that a man must keep a close

watch over himself so as to avoid wrongdoing,
since it would bring a great deal of evil upon him ;
must he not ?
pol. Certainly.
soc. But ifhe is guilty of wrongdoing, either
himself or anyone else he may care for, he must
go of his own freewill where he may soonest pay
the penalty, to the judge as if to his doctor, with the
earnest intent that the disease of his injustice shall
not become chronic and cause a deep incurable ulcer
in his soul. Or what are we to say, Polus, if our
former conclusions stand ? Must not our later ones
accord with them in this way, and in this only ?
pol. Yes, what else, indeed, are we to say,
Socrates ?
soc. Then for pleading in defence of injustice,
whether it is oneself or one's parents or friends or
children or country that has done the wrong, rhetoric
is of no use to us at all, Polus ; except one were to
suppose, perchance, to the contrary, that a man ought
to accuse himself first of all, and in the second place
his relations or anyone else of his friends who may
from time to time be guilty of wrong ; and, instead of
concealing the iniquity, to bring it to light in order
that he may pay the penalty and be made healthy ;
and, moreover, to compel both himself and his neigh
bours not to cower away but to submit with closed
eyes and good courage, as it were, to the cutting and
burning of the surgeon, in pursuit of what is good
and fair, and without reckoning in the smart : if his
crimes have deserved a flogging, he must submit
to the rod ; if fetters, to their grip ; if a fine, to its
payment ; if banishment, to be banished ; or if
375
PLATO
avrov irpuirov ovra Karryyopov Kal avrov #cai

tojv dXXtov oiKeloav Kal em tovto xpu>p.evov -rrj
ptjTOpiKfj, OTTOJS dv KCLTaBrjXcov tGsv dSt/CTJ/iaTCOV
yi.yvop.evoov aTraXXaTTcovTat, rod p,eyloTov ko.kov,
dSiKias. <j>wp,ev ovtojs r) p,r) <j)6jp,ev, to IIcoAe;
E nflA. "AroTra p.ev, a) Sci/cpare?, ep.oi.ye SoKei,
rot? fxivroi efjLTrpocrOev tacos o~oi 6p.oXoyevrai.
2fl. Ovkovv r/ KaKetva Xvreov rj raSe avdyK-q
crvp,f$aiveiv ;
na/v. Nat, tovto ye ovtojs eêi.
5n. Tovvavrlov Se ye av /xera/JaAcWa, et dpa
hel two. KaKUJs TTOielv, ir iftOpov e'vre ovtwovv,
edv fiovov p,r) auro? dSiKrjrai vtto rod e)(9pov'
tovto yap evXafirjTeov edv Se dXXov dSi/crJ o
p.ev
481 e)(dp6s, iravTL Tporroj rrapaaKevaareov, Kal rrpdr-
tovto. Kai XeyovTa, ottojs pvq 8<3 Slktjv p,rj8e eX6rj
napa tov 8iKacrrrjv edv Se eXdjj, p,rjxavr)TOv,
ottcos av oia<pvyrj Kat pvq oqj oiktjv o exppos, aAA
edv Te xpvoiov rjpTraKOJS rj ttoXv, p.r) cwroSiSaJ
tovto dXX' eyajv dvaXicrKT)1 Kal els eavrdv /cat
els tovs eavTov dSiKws Kal dOeoJS, edv Te davdrov
ottojs p,r) drrodaveZTat,, pAXiaTa
fj,
dia r)h'iKr)K<l)s
p.ev p,rjoeTTOTe, aXX adavaros earai TTOvrjpos d\v,
ottojs
el
Se pvq, cos TrXelaTov \povov f5iojo~eTai.

tolovtos ojv.
em tci roiavTa ep.oi.ye So/cei, w
B
IlaiAe, prjTopiKr) xpr)crip,os elvai, errel tu> ye p.r)

17
L. Dindorf
1
ivaKlanT) dvaXLaK-qrai mss.

:
376
GORGIAS
death, to die ; himself to be the first accuser either

of himself or of his relations, and to employ his
rhetoric for the purpose of so exposing their iniquities
that they may be relieved of that greatest evil,
injustice. Shall this be our statement or not,
Polus ?
pol. An extraordinary one, Socrates, it seems to
me, though perhaps you do find it agrees with what
went before.
soc. Well, either that must be upset, or this
necessarily follows.
pol. Yes, that certainly is so.
soc. And so again conversely, supposing it is our
duty to injure somebody, whether an enemy or any
one else provided only that it is not against oneself
that wrong has been done by such enemy, for this we
must take care to avoid 1 but supposing our enemy
has wronged some one else, we must make every
exertion of act and word to prevent him from being
punished or coming to trial, or if he does, we must
contrive that our enemy shall escape and not be
punished ; nay, if he has carried off a great lot of
gold, that he shall not refund it but keep and spend
it on himself and his, unjustly and godlessly, or if he
has committed crimes that deserve death, that he
shall not die ; if possible, never die, but be deathless
in his villainy, or failing that, five as long a time as
may be in that condition. Such are the purposes,
as it seems to me, Polus, for which rhetoric is useful,
since to him who has no intention of doing wrong
1
The parenthesis humorously anticipates an objection
that might be made, in a particular case, to this theory of
what a really thorough enmity would be : if our enemy has
robbed us of gold, of course we cannot, as is presently urged,
take care that " he shall not refund it."
377
PLATO
p.eXXovri dSt/ceiy ov p.eydAr) tls fioi So/cet rj "xpeia-
avrrjs ewai, ei /cat ecrri tls ^peta, <bs ev ye
877
rots irpoodev ovBafiij ovoa.
etf>dv7j
KAAA. Et7re p.01, XaipeâJv, onovSaêi. ravra
a)
YiOiKpaTTjS 7rai'ei;
rj
XAIP. 'Ejitoi p,ev So/cet, a> KaAAt/cAei?, vrtep-
<f>va>s arrovSaêiv ov8ev jievroi olov ro avrov
eptorav.
KAAA. Nt) tous Oeovs dAA' emdvp,uj. elrre /not,
C
a> HwKpares, rrorepov ae dcofxev1 vwl airovhd-

t,ovra traiôvra; et /xev yap OTTOi/Sa^ct? re /cat
rj
Tt/yâvei rat/ra akrjdfj ovra a Aeyets, dAAo ti

fiilos dvarerpap.iJ.evos dv etrj ruiv dvdpw-
6
rjp.u>v
tj
ttcdv /cat rrdvra rd evavria rrparrojiev, s eoiKev,

A O ^
a oet;
77
2n. Tii KaAAt'/cAeis', et ju,^ ti tjv rot? dvOpajnots

nddos, TOty /xef dAAo Tt, toi? 8e dAAo ri ro avro,
dAAd Tt? r)p.wv t8tdi> Tt eiraoye nddos ot dAAot.
D
ou/c dv rjv paoiov evoeiâadai rep erepep ro eavrov 77
eworjoas, Sri. eyu> re /cat ov

8'
Trd9r]p.a. Xeyco
vw rvy)(avop.ev ravrov Tt Trerrovdores, epcovre
Svo dvre Svolv eKarepos, eyd> p.kv 'AA/ct/StdSoi;
re rov KAetrt'oi) /cat <j>i\ooo<j>ias cru Se Suoti',
,
toi/ 'Adrjvalcov Srffiov /cat tou nuptAdniTTODS'.

Te
aloddvojiai. ovv oov exdorore, Kairrep ovros Seivov,
OTt orroo' dv (f>rj oov rd 7ratSt/cd /cat orrcog dv
^jj *XW> ov $vvap.evov dvriAeyeiv, dAA' dfeu /cat
E
Kara) p,eraf5aX\op.evov ev re rfj e/c/cArjc/t'a, cdv

Tt trow Xeyovros 'Adrjvaiutv fir/ (jyfj
6
b~rjpx>s
ovrcos <=Xelv> pêraf$aXX6p.evos Xeyeis a eKetvos
Madvig mss.
1
$w/xev <j>C>ii.ev
:
378
GORGIAS
it is, I consider, of no great use, if
indeed there is
any use in it at all ; for in our previous argument it
was nowhere to be found.
call. Tell me, Chaerephon, is Socrates in earnest
over this, or only joking ?
chaer. To my thinking, Callicles, prodigiously in
earnest : still, there is nothing like asking him.
call. Upon my word, just what I want to do.
Tell me, Socrates, are we to take you as serious just
now, or joking ? For if you are serious and what
you say is really true, must not the life of us human
beings have been turned upside down, and must we
not be doing quite the opposite, it seems, of what
we ought to do ?
soc. Callicles, if men had not certain feelings,
each common to one sort of people, but each of us
had a feeling peculiar to himself and apart from the
rest, it would not be easy for him to indicate his
own impression to his neighbour. I say this because
I notice that you and I are at this moment in much
the same condition, since the two of us are enamoured
each of two things I of Alcibiades, son of Cleinias,
and philosophy, and you of two, the Athenian
Demus, and the son of Pyrilampes.1 Now I always
observe that, for all your cleverness, you are unable
to contradict your favourite, however much he
may say or whatever may be his account of any
thing, but are ever changing over from side to
side. In the Assembly, if the Athenian Demus
disagrees with some statement you are making,
you change over and say what it desires ; and just
1
Pyrilampes' son was named Demus, and was famous
for his beauty ; cf. Aristoph. Wasps, 97. " Demus " was
the ordinary word for the " people
" of a city.
379
PLATO
fiovXerai, /cat rrpds rov HvpiXafinovs veavlav

rov kclAov rovrov roiavra erepa Trevovdas' rots
yap rcov vaiSiKcov fiovXevfiaai, re /cat Xoyois oi5j
ofd? r ei evavriovadai, ware, el rls crov Xeyovros
eKaarore, a Sta. rovrovs Xeyeis, davp,dZ,ot. cos
arorra eariv, locos elrrois av avrcp, ei fiovXoio
482 rdXrjdrj Xeye.iv, ori, el prq ris iravaet. rd ad 7raiSt/cd
rovrcov rcov Xoycov, ovoe av navaei, rrore ravra
Xeycov. vop,\X,e roivvv /cat Trap' epxiv xpfjvai erepa
roiavra dicoveiv, /cat fir/ 6avp,a,e on eycb ravra
Xeyco, dXXd ttjv <f>iXooo<plav , rd ep.d Traioind,
rravaov ravra Xeyovoav. Xeyei ydp, co <f>iXe
eraipe, a vw ep,ov anoveis, /cat p.oL eon rcov
erepcov naioiKiov ttoXv tfrrov ep,TrXr]Kros' 6 fiev
yap KAetrt'eto? oSros dXXore dXXcov earl Xoycov,
B r) 8e <f>iXooo(f>!.a ael rcov avrcov Xeyei oe a oil vw
6avp,deis, rraprjada 8e /cat avros Xeyop,evois.
r) ovv eKeiv-qv eêXeyôv, onep dpn eXeyov, cos
ov ro aSt/cetv eon /cat aSiKOVvra Si/ctjv pvq St-
SoVat drrdvrcov eoârov xaKcov iy et rovro edoeis
dveXeyKTov, p.d rov Kvva rov Alyvriricov Oeov, ov
aoi SfioXoyrfaei KaAAt/cA^y, co KaAAt'/cAets1, dXXd
oiacfrcovijaei ev diravn rep fiicp. /cairoi eycoye
otjitat, co fieXriore, /cat rr)v Xvpav p,oi Kpeirrov
etvai dvapp.ooreiv1 re /cat oiaxf>coveiv, Kat \opov
C co xpprjyolrjv , /cat rrXelorovs dvdpconovs p.r) opo-
Xoyelv p,oi dXX' evavria Xeyeiv fiaXXov 77 eva ovra
6/x.e ep,avru> dovp,<j>covov etvai /cat evavria Xeyeiv.
*
KAAA. *2 HcoKpares, So/cei? veavieveoOai iv

rois Xoyois cbs dXrjdcos SrjpLTjyopos cov /cat vw
ravra Srjp.rjyopels ravrov iradovros YicoXov rrddos,
1
avapfio(TTiv Heusde : avdpfxoarbv mss.
380
GORGIAS
the same thing happens to you in presence of that
fair youth, the son of Pyrilampes ; you are unable
to resist the counsels and statements of your darling,
so that if anyone showed surprise at the strangeness
of the things you are constantly saying under that
influence, you would probably tell him, if you chose
to speak the truth, that unless somebody makes your
favourite stop speaking thus, you will never stop
speaking thus either. Consider yourself therefore
obliged to hear the same sort of remark from me
now, and do not be surprised at my saying it, but
make my darling, philosophy, stop talking thus. For
she, my dear friend, speaks what you hear me saying
now, and she is far less fickle to me than any other
favourite : that son of Cleinias is ever changing his
views, but philosophy always holds the same, and
it is her speech that now surprises you, and she
spoke it in your own presence. So you must either
refute her, as I said just now, by proving that
wrongdoing and impunity for wrong done is not
the uttermost evil ; or, if you leave that unproved,
by the Dog, god of the Egyptians, there will be no
agreement between you, Callicles, and Callicles, but
you will be in discord with him all your life. And yet
I, my very good sir, should rather choose to have
my lyre, or some chorus that I might provide for the
public, out of tune and discordant, or to have any
number of people disagreeing with me and contra
dicting me, than that I should have internal discord
and contradiction in my own single self.
call. Socrates, you seem to be roistering reck
lessly in your talk, like the true demagogue
that you are ; and you are declaiming now in this
way because Polus has got into the same plight
381
PLATO
orrep Topylov Karrjyopei rrpos oe iradeiv. e<f>r/
yap rrov epaircopevov vtto aov, edv

'
Topyiav
ri
dtf>-
licqrai Trap' avrov
p.r) imordpevos oiKaia
6 ttjv prjTopiicfjV fiovXopevos p.adeZv, el 8i8doi
D avrov 6 Topylas, aloxyvOrjvai avrov koI <f>dvai Si-
odew Sid to edos rwv avdpdmwv, ori ayavaKroZev
of el Tt? pr) <j>atT) Sid
Stj
ravrrjv rr\v opoXoylav
dvayKaodfjvai evavrla avrov avrat elrreZv, are Se
avro rovro ayarrdv /ecu. aov KarayeXdv,
'
a>s ye
px>i SoKelv, opdtos rore' avrds ravrdv
vvv Se rrdXiv
rovro enaOev. /cat eytoye Kar avro rovro ovk
dya/xai IIcuAoj', ori ool awe\o>pr\ae rd aoiKeiv
aio\iov elvai rov doiKeZadai- etc ravrr/s yap av
E
rfjs dpoXoylas avros vtto gov avp-rrohiadels ev

rots Xoyois eirearopiaOrj, alaxwdels a evoei
elrreZv. oil yap ru> ovri, a> JLojKpares, els roiavra
dyeis <f>opriKa Kal hrjp.rfyopi.Ka, <f>doKcov rr)v
aXrjdeiav hidiKeiv, a <f>voei pev ovk eari KaXd,
vop.w Se. ws rd rroXXd Se Taura evavrla dAAij-
Aou earlv, re (f>vais Kal vopios' edv ovv ris
6
rj
alo~xyvr)rai Kal pr/ roXp.5. Xeyeiv drrep voeZ, dvayKa-

483 t,erai evavrla Xeyeiv. o Kal ail rovro rd ao-
hr)
<f>dvKaravevorjKoi)s KaKovpyels ev roZs Xoyois, edv

p.ev ris Kara vopov Xeyj), Kara <f>vaiv vnepwriov
,
,
edv Se Ta rrjs <j>vaecos, to tou
oianep
vop.ov.
avr'iKa ev rovrois, rw aoiKeZv re Kal ra> dSiKrei-
o0ai, riaiAoo rd Kara vopov alo)(u>v Xeyovros, av
The distinction between " natural," or absolute, and

1
"conventional," or legal, right, first made by the Ionian

i
Archelaus who taught Socrates in his youth, developed

is
at length in the Republic 388 foil.), and was a constant

(i.
subject of discussion among the sophists of Plato's time.

382
GORGIAS
as he was accusing Gorgias of letting himself be

led into by you. For he said, I think, when you
asked Gorgias whether, supposing a man came to
him with no knowledge of justice but a desire to
learn rhetoric, he would instruct the man, Gorgias
showed some shame and said he would, because of
the habit of mind in people which would make
them indignant if refused and so, because of this
admission, he was forced to contradict himself, and
that was just what suited you and Polus was
right, to my thinking, in mocking at you as he did
then ; but this time he has got into the very same
plight himself. For my own part, where I am not
satisfied with Polus is just that concession he made
to you that doing wrong is fouler than suffering
it ; for owing to this admission he too in his turn
got entangled in your argument and had his mouth
stopped, being ashamed to say what he thought.
For you, Socrates, really turn the talk into such low,
popular clap-trap, while you give out" that you are
pursuing the truth into stuff that is fair," not by
nature, but by convention.1 Yet for the most part
these two nature and convention are opposed to

each other, so that if a man is ashamed and dares
not say what he thinks, he is forced to contradict
himself. And this, look you, is the clever trick
you have devised for our undoing in your discussions :
when a man states anything according to convention
" "
you slip according to nature into your questions ;
and again, if he means nature, you imply convention.
In the present case, for instance, of doing and suffer
ing wrong, when Polus was speaking of what is con
ventionally fouler, you followed it up in the sense
383
PLATO
rov Xoyov1 eSuoKades Kara <j>vaiv. cfrvoei fiev

yap tto-v aicrîov eonv brrep Kal KaKiov, ro dSi-
KeZoOai, vop,<p Se ro dSiKeZv. oi8e yap dvdpos
rovro eon ro
y 7ra9r)p,a, to d8iKeZcr6ai, dAA'
B dv8parr68ov twos, co KpeZrrov eon redvdvai rj
tfiv, Sorts dStKovftevos Kal TrpoTn}XaKit,6p,evos fir/
olos re iorlv avros avra> fio-qdeZv p,r]8e dXXco oS
dv Krj8r)rai,. dAA', otp,ai, ol ndep,evoi rovs vo-
p.ovs 01 aodeveZs avdptOTroi eiai Kai ol ttoXXoL.
rrpos avrovs odv Kal ro avroZs crvpêpov rovs re
vop.ovs ridevrai Kal rovs erraivovs erraivovai Kal
C rovs i/joyovs ifieyovoiv, eKcf>of}ovvres rovs eppco-
p,evearepovs rwv dvdpcoTrcov Kal Svvarovs ovras
rrXeov exlv> "va PV avTcov rrXeov eycaoiv, Xeyovaw
cos aloxpov Kal dSiKov ro TrXeoveKreZv, Kal rovro
eon ro d8iKiv, ro rrXeov rcov dXXcov ^rjreZv e\ei,v
ayavcoot yap, olfiai, avrol dv to laov e^coai.
cf>avX6repoi ovres. Sid ravra vop.co p.ev tovto
8r)
dhiKov Kal 'aloxpov Xeyerai, to rrXeov rjreZv

ttoXXlov, Kal doiKetv avro KaXovaiv
D
exeLV T**>v
r)
Se ye, otp,ai, <f>vms avrr) drrocjialvei avro, on
Si/caioV eon rov dp,elvco rov êipovoy rrXeov exeLV
Kal rov 8vvarc6repov rov dSwarwrepov . 8rjXoZ
Se ravra rroXXaxov on ovrcos eêt, Kal ev toZs
dXXois ipot,s Kal rcov dvdpcoTrcov ev SXais raZs
rroXeoi Kat. roZs yeveoiv, on ovrco ro SiKaiov
KeKpirai, rov Kpelrrco rov rjrrovos
dpxeiv Kal
irXeov eêiv. eVei rtolco 8iKalcp xP^pevos Sep^r/s
em rr)v 'EAAdSa eorparevoev o Trarr/p avrov
E
rj
errl YiKiidas; dXXa p,vpia dv Tt? eôt roiavra

rj
Xeyew dAA' otp,ai, oSroi Kara tj>vmv ttjv rov

,
\6yov Riemann vifiov mss.

1
384.
GORGIAS
of what is naturally so. For by nature everything

is fouler that is more evil, such as suffering wrong :
doing it is fouler only by convention. Indeed this
endurance of wrong done is not a man's part at all,
but a poor slave's, for whom it is better to be dead
than alive, as it is for anybody who, when wronged
or insulted, is unable to protect himself or anyone
else for whom he cares. But I suppose the makers
of the laws are the weaker sort of men, and the more
numerous. So it is with a view to themselves and
their own interest that they make their laws and
distribute their praises and censures ; and to
terrorize the stronger sort of folk who are able to
get an advantage, and to prevent them from getting
one over them, they tell them that such aggrandize
ment is foul and unjust, and that wrongdoing is
just this endeavour to get the advantage of one's
neighbours : for I expect they are well content
to see themselves on an equality, when they are
so inferior. So this is why by convention it is
termed unjust and foul to aim at an advantage
over the majority, and why they call it wrong
doing : but nature, in my opinion, herself proclaims
the fact that it is right for the better to have ad
vantage of the worse, and the abler of the feebler.
It is obvious in many cases that this is so, not only
in the animal world, but in the states and races,
collectively, of men that right has been decided
to consist in the sway and advantage of the stronger
over the weaker. For by what manner of right
did Xerxes march against Greece, or his father
against Scythia ? Or take the countless other cases
of the sort that one might mention. Why, surely
vol. v 2c 385
PLATO
8iKaiov ravra irpdrrovari, Kal vol p,d Ai'a koto,

koto,
vofiov ye tov rfjs <f>vaea>s, ov fievroi iau>s
tovtov, ov r/fJiets ridifxeda' TrXaTTOvres tovs jSeA-
tLotovs Kal eppa)fj.ev(TTdrovs rjp,aiv ovtcjv, eVc
veutv Xap.f3dvovTes, oiOTrep XeovTas,
KaTerrdSovres
484 Te Kal yo-qrevovres KaTa8ovXovp,eda XeyovTes,
(Ls to taov xprj exeiv Kal tovto eon to koXov
ko.1 to SIkcuov. idv 84 ye, otfiai, <f>vaiv iKavrjv
yevrjTai. e)(fav avqp, iravTa tclvto. anooeiadpievos
Kal 8iapprjas Kal /caTCwraTijaaj
8ia(f>vyu>v, to.
jjfierepa ypdp,p.aTa Kal p,ayyavevfj,aTa Kal eira>8as
Kal vop.ovs tovs irapa <f>vaiv diravTas, eVavaora?
dve(f>dv7] SeoTTorqs ij/Lierepos 6 8ovXos, Kal ev-
B Tavda etjeXa/xifie to ttjs <f>vaecos Si'/catov. 80/cei
Se fioi Kal Ilivoapos direp iyd) Xeyco evBeiKwodat,
ev t& aopiaTi ev <L Aeyei on
vojxos 6 TtavTow jSaffiAeu?

QvaTuw Te Kal dOavaTaiv
oStos Se Stj, <j>rjocv,

ayei Si/caiaw to fliaioTaTov

tmepraTa XelP'- TeKfialpofiai
'
epyoicruv HpaKXeos, eirel airpiaTas
Aeyei ovrca ttu>s' to yap ao/ia ovk e7rioTa/xai-

Aeyei S oti ovre Trpidfxevos ovre Sovtos tov
C Trjpvovov r/XdaaTo ray fiovs, ojs tovtov ovtos
tov Sikcuou <f>voei, Kal fiovs Kal T&XXa KTr/fiaTa
etvai iravTa tov fieXriovos re Kal KpelTTovos t<z 1
tuw xlpdvo)v Te Kal t/ttovcov.

386
GORGIAS
these men follow nature the nature of right in

acting thus ; yes, on my soul, and follow the
law1 of nature though not that, I dare say,
which is made by us ; we mould the best and
strongest amongst us, taking them from their
infancy like young lions, and utterly enthral them
by our spells and witchcraft, telling them the while
that they must have but their equal share, and that
, this is what is fair and just. But, I fancy, when some
man arises with a nature of sufficient force, he shakes
off all that we have taught him, bursts his bonds,
and breaks free ; he tramples underfoot our codes
and juggleries, our charms and " laws," which are all
against nature ; our slave rises in revolt and shows
himself our master, and there dawns the full light
of natural justice. And it seems to me that Pindar
adds his evidence to what I say, in the ode where
he says
Law the sovereign of all,
Mortals and immortals,
which, so he continues,
Carries all with highest hand,
Justif ying the utmost force : in proof I take
The deeds of Hercules, for unpurchased *
the words are something like that I do not know
the poem well but it tells how he drove off the
cows as neither a purchase nor a gift from Geryones ;
taking it as a natural right that cows or any other
possessions of the inferior and weaker should all
belong to the superior and stronger.
1
Callicles boldly applies the word vo/xos, which so far has
been used in the sense of man-made law or convention, in
" its widest sense of " general rule " or " principle."
2 Pindar,
fr. 169 (Bergk).
387
PLATO
To fiev ovv dXrjdes ovtojs cxl ytoajf 84, av
errl ra fiel^ca eXOrjs edaas : <fnXo-
<f>i\o<jo<f>ico>
ILdtKpares, \aplev, av tij

17077
yap rol eoriv, a>

oo<f>ia
avrov p.erpiws atprp-ai ev rfj rjXiKia- edv Se rre-
pairepai rod Seovros evoiarpiifij) , SiaSdopa tu>v
dvdpumaiv. ' edv yap Kal ndw ewf>vr)s 77 icai
TToppoj rfjs rjXtKias <j>iXoao<f)fj, avayicq rravraw
D aneipov yeyovevai eoriv, u>v xpi) 4p.Treipov elvai
rov p.eXXovra koXov xayadov Kal evooKipxtv eaeoOai
avopa. Kal ydp rwv vop.wv aneipoi yiyvovrat
raw Kara, tt)v ttoXlv, Kal rani Xoywv, ols oei
XpdfjLevov 6p.uXetv ev rols ovp.fioXaiois toi? dvdpw-
ttois Kal 181a Kal or]p.oaia, Kal rtov "qoovwv re
Kai emBvp.uov riov dvdpameuav, Kal avXXrf^Brjv
ram -qdaiv TTavrdrraaiv aneipoi yiyvovrax. inet-
8dv ovv eXdataiv els rwa ioiav fj TroXiriKrjv irpaiv,
KarayiXaoroi yiyvovrai, aiarrep ye, oluat,, 01
E TToXi.ri.Koi, erreiSdv av els ras vp.erepas Siarpifids
eXda>ai Kal rovs Xoyovs, KarayeXaarol elai.
crvp-fialvei. ro rov EvptiriBov
yap Xaprrpos r'
eorlv eKaaros ev rovrw, Karri rovr eirel-
yerai,
vepMiv to 7rAeiOTOi' r)p.epas rovra> p.epos,
lv' avros avrov rvyxdvei fieXrurros cuv
485 oVou 8' av <f>avXos 77, evrevOev (f>evyei Kal Xoi-

Sopel rovro, ro 8 erepov erraivel, evvoiq. rfj
eavrov, r/yovp.evos ovtojs avros eavrov eTrawew.
dXX', 6tp.ai, ro SpOorarov eoriv dp.(f>orepojv puera-
1
Eurip. fr. Antiope Zethus and Amphion, twins born
to Zeus by Antiope, were left by her on Mt. Cithaeron,
388
GORGIAS
Well, that is the truth of the matter ; and you will

grasp it if you will now put philosophy aside and pass
to greater things. For philosophy , you know, Socrates,
is a charming thing, if a man has to do with it
moderately in his younger days ; but if he continues
to spend his time on it too long, it is ruin to any
man. However well endowed one may be, if one
philosophizes far on into life, one must needs find
oneself ignorant of everything that ought to be
familiar to the man who would be a thorough
gentleman and make a good figure in the world. For
such people are shown to be ignorant of the laws
of their city, and of the terms which have to be
used in negotiating agreements with their fellows
in private or in public affairs, and of human pleasures
and desires ; and, in short, to be utterly inexperienced
in men's characters. So when they enter upon any
private or public business they make themselves
ridiculous, just as on the other hand, I suppose,
when public men engage in your studies and
discussions, they are quite ridiculous. The fact is,
as Euripides has it
Each shines in that, to that end presses on,

Allotting there the chiefest part o' the day,
Wherein he haply can surpass himself '
whereas that in which he is weak he shuns and

vilifies ; but the other he praises, in kindness to
himself, thinking in this way to praise himself also.
But the most proper course, I consider, is to take
where Zethus grew up as a man of the field, and Amphion

as a musician. Here probably Amphion is speaking in
defence of the quieter life; furthjer on, in the quotations
given in 486 b, c, Zethus reproaches him with his effeminacy.
389
PLATO
o~xelv <f>iXooo<f>ias p,ev ooov TraiSeias X*/tHV KaXov

(jueT)(t,v, /cat ovk alaxpov juei/aa/ct'o) ovri (f>iXo-
aocfielv eVetSav Se 7]8rj TTpeafSvrepos cov avdpcaiTOS
In <j>iXoao(f>7J , KarayeXaorov, <S HcjKpares, to
Xpfjfia yiyverai, /cat eyorye op,oiorarov irao-ftco
B -npos rovs (f>iXoao(f>ovvras djcnrep irpos rovs ipeX-
Xit,op.evovs Kal nalôvras. orav p,ev yap rraiSiov
tSco, a> en TrpoarjKei oiaXeyeodai ovrw, ipeXXi-
ôfievov Kal rrailpv, xa^Pw T âi XaPêv M0!
<f>aiverai Kal eXevOepiov /cat irpeiTov rfj rov naiSiov
ijAi/a'a, orav Se aa<f>u>s StaAeyo/xeVou iraihaplov
aKovau), TTiKpov ri [ioi So/cei xPVH'a etvat Kal
avid,
fiov ra (Lra /cat p,oi So/cei SovXonpeTres ti
etvar orav 8e dvSpos aKovcrrj ris tfieXXiôfxevov
C r) naiôvra dpa, KarayeXaarov <f>awerai Kal
avavopov Kal TrX-qywv dtjiov. ravrov oSv eycoye
rovro irdaxco Kal rrpds rovs </>iXocro(f>ovvras .
napa veto fiev ydp p.eipaKiip opwv (f>i,Xoao<f>iav
ayafiai, /cat Trpeirew fxoi 8o/cei, /cat rjyov/jiai
eXevdepov riva etvat rovrov rov avdpwrrov, rov Se
p,r) </>i,Xocro<f>ovvra aveXevdepov /cat ovSenore ov8e-
vos dûLaovra eavrov ovre KaXov ovre yevvaiov
D Trpdyp,aros' orav Se en
817
rrpeafivrepov tSa>
<f>iXoao<l)ovvra Kal p,r) drraXXarrop.evov, rrXrjycbv

/xot So/cet t)8tj helodai, oSros
<h
Sco/cpare?,
6
dvr/p., o ydp vvv eXeyov, vndpxet. rovrcp ra>

8r)
/cav ndvv ev<f)vr)s

fj,
dvOpwTTU), dvdv8pu> yeveadai

<j>evyovri ra fieaa rfjs voXecos Kal ras dyopds,
ev at? e<f>r] Troirjrr)s rovs dvSpas dpnrpeTrels
6
yiyveodai, KaraSeSvKort, Se rov Xonrov filov /StcDvai

fieipaKLCov ev ycovlq. rpicov rerrdpoxv
rj
^teTci
ifiidvpiôvra, eXevdepov Se /cat p.eya /cat veaviKov
390
GORGIAS
a share of both. It is a fine thing to partake of

philosophy just for the sake of education, and it is
no disgrace for a lad to follow it : but when a man
already advancing in years continues in its pursuit,
the affair, Socrates, becomes ridiculous ; and for my
part I have much the same feeling towards students
of philosophy as towards those who lisp or play
tricks. For when I see a little child, to whom it is
still natural to talk in that way, lisping or playing
some trick, I enjoy it, and it strikes me as pretty and
ingenuous and suitable to the infant's age ; whereas
if I hear a small child talk distinctly, I find it a dis
agreeable thing, and it offends my ears and seems to
me more befitting a slave. But when one hears a
grown man lisp, or sees him play tricks, it strikes one
as something ridiculous and unmanly, that deserves a
whipping. Just the same, then, is my feeling towards
the followers of philosophy. For when I see philo
sophy in a young lad I approve of it ; I consider it
suitable, and I regard him as a person of liberal
mind : whereas one who does not follow it I account
illiberal and never likely to expect of himself any
fine or generous action. But when I see an elderly
man still going on with philosophy and not getting
rid of it, that is the gentleman, Socrates, whom I
think in need of a whipping. For as I said just now,
this person, however well endowed he may be, is
bound to become unmanly through shunning the
centres and marts of the city, in which, as the poet 1
" "
said, men get them note and glory ; he must
cower down and spend the rest of his days whispering
in a corner with three or four lads, and never utter
1
Homer, II. ix. 441.
391
PLATO
E fJL7]8c7Tore </>6eyacr6au . eyco 8e, to Eco/cpaTey,

wpos oe imeiKois e\w <f>iXiKU>s' KivBvvevco ovv
irenovdevat, vvv onep 6 ZrjOos rrpds tov
'Afi(f>cova
6 EvpimSov, ovrrep ep,vrjodr]v. /cat yap epol
roiavr' drra errepêrai irpos oe Xeyeiv, otdrrep
eKetvos npos tov oti
dp,eXels,
d8eX<f>6v, a> 2o6-
Kpwres, tov Set oe ernp.eXelod at, /cat <j>vouv tpvxV5
co8e yewaiav p,eipaKic68ei rivl SiaoTpetfreis1 fiop-
486 (fxLfiari,, /cat out' av 81ktjs fiovXaloi npoodei
dv opOws Xoyov, ovt' et/co? av /cat mdavov Xdfiois,
oiid' vrrep dXXov veaviKov fiovXevfia fiovXevoaio .
/cat'rot, to<f>lXe Sai/cpaTey /cat fioi [J,rj8ev a%de-

oOfjs' evvoia ydp epco rfj of) ovk aloxpdv 8oKeZ
wot etvat ovruis e%et.v, lbs eyco ere otjuat eyew
/cat tovs aXXovs tovs rroppco del (juXooocjiias
eXavvovras; vvv ydp el ns oov Xa/36p,evos
}
dXXov orovovv tcov tolovtcov els to 8eop.coTrjpi.ov
airdyoi, cf>doKCOV aSt/cetv firjBev dSt/cowTa, otaO
oti ovk av e)(ois o Tt ^prfaaio aavTW, dXX' IXiy-
yieprjs dv /cat âcr/Ltcpo ovk e^cov o ti elrroLS, /cat
f}
els to BiKaarT'qpi.ov avafias, Karrjyopov TV)(ibv

diroddvois av,
el
ndvv cf>avXov /cat fxoxGi]pov,
v
fiovXoiTO Oavdrov aoi Tip.ao6ai.J /catVot Trios oocf>6v
tovto eemv, HcoKpares, tJtis evfivrj Xafiovcra
co
re\vrj cfjeora effajKe xelpova, pvtyre avTov avrcp

hvvdjxevov fiorjOeiv p,r]8 eKOcoaai /c tcov fieyi-
arcov kiv8vvcov p,r\re eavrov pvryre dXXov fj.Tqhe.va,
vtto 8e tcov eydptov TrepiovXdodai rrdaav tt)v
C
ovaiav, dreyyios oe drifiov t,r]v ev rfj TroXei; tov

8e toiovtov, Tt /cat dypoiKorepov elpfjadai,
el
eeoTiv em Koppr/s rvrnovra ur) StSoVat 8Lki]v.

Valckenaer 5iarp4irus mss.
1
dia<TTp(peis
:
392
GORGIAS
anything free or high or spirited. Now I, Socrates,

am quite fairly friendly to you, and so I feel very
much at this moment as Zethus did, whom I have
mentioned, towards Amphion in Euripides. Indeed
I am prompted to address you "
in the same sort of
words as he did his brother : You neglect, Socrates,
what you ought to mind ; you distort with a kind
of boyish travesty a soul of such noble nature ; and
neither will you bring to the counsels of justice any
rightly spoken word, nor will you accept any as
probable or convincing, nor advise any gallant plan
for your fellow." And yet, my dear Socrates
now do not be annoyed with me, for I am going to
say this from goodwill to you does it not seem to
you disgraceful to be in the state I consider you are
in, along with the rest of those who are ever pushing
further into philosophy ? For as it is, if somebody
should seize hold of you or anyone else at all of your
sort, and drag you off to prison, asserting that you
were guilty of a wrong you had never done, you
know you would be at a loss what to do with yourself,
and would be all dizzy and agape without a word to
say ; and when you came up in court, though your
accuser might be ever so paltry a rascal, you would
have to die if he chose to claim death as your penalty.
"
And yet what wisdom is there, Socrates, in an art
that found a man of goodly parts and made him
worse," unable either to succour himself, or to deliver
himself or anyone else from the greatest dangers,
but like to be stripped by his enemies of all his
substance, and to live in his city as an absolute
outcast ? Such a person, if one may use a rather
low expression, can be given a box on the ear with
393
PLATO
dAA' 'yaOe, e/xot Treldov, 7ravaai o' iXeyxtov,
a>
TrpayjjLaTcov S' evp.ovaiav do/cei, /cat dovcct

oTTodev 86eis <f>poveiv, dXXois rd Ko/xipa ravTa
atfreis, eire Ar)prf/j,a.Ta xprj tfrdvai etvcu iT <f>Xvapias,
D e <Lv KevoZcrtv iyKaroiKT]o-eis Sd/xots- r]\ajv
ovk eXeyxovras avSpas rd /.u/cpa, ravra, dAA' of?
eon /cat ^Sto? /fat 8da /cat dAAa ttoXXol dyad a..
2n. Ei xpvcrfjv ex<*)v irvyxavov ttjv i/jvxtJ", cL
KaAAi/cAeis', ovk dv otet p,e dop.evov evpeiv tovtcov
nva rdv Xldcov, fi fiaoaviôvcri tov xPvav> tt)v
dplanqv, -rrpos rjvnva e/AeXXov Trpocrayaywv avrijv,
et jLioi op,oXoyrjoiev eKeivq KaXws Tedepanevcrdat
rqv iftvxîv, eS etoecrdai. on t/cavcSy eâi /cat ovSev
E p*oi Set aXXrjs fiaadvov;
ti tovt ipcoras,
S-jj
kaaa. Hpos Sco/cpares';
<S
2n. dot epcS" vvv ot/xat eyd> croi
'Eyc eWeTuîj/ceVat.
kaaa. Tt 817;
2fl. Eu o?8' oti, dv jaot tru d/xoAoyijcnjs wepl
aiv eîj yniXV oogaêi, Tain- ijotj ec/rtv airra
17
4g7 rdXrjdrj. iwodi ydp, oti tov p,eXXovra fHaaavieiv

ikolvcos*pvxys Tt&pi dpdd>s re <oo~qs /cat pvr] rpia
dpa Set %XW> * ^ Trdvra eêi?, imaTrjp.7]v re /cat
evvouxv /cat irapprjaiav. eyco ydp ttoXXols ev-
Tvyxdvco, ot ep,e ox>x oloi re elol fiaaavtêiv, Std
to /A17 oo<f>ol etvai wcrirep av' erepoi 8e ao<f>ol p,ev
elaiv, ovk ideXovcri 8e /xot Aeyetv ttjv dX-qdeiav,
Std to /H17 KrjSeodal p,ov cjarrep av- tco 8e feVat
TtoSe, Topytas re /cat FltuAo?, /cat c^tAa/
B
aocfxl) p,ev
iarov ep,cb, evoeeorepci) Se Trapprjoias /cat atoûv
394
GORGIAS
impunity. No, take my advice, my good sir,

and cease refuting ; some practical proficiency
induce," something that will give you credit for
"
sense : to others leave these pretty toys," call
"
them vapourings or fooleries as you will, which
will bring you to inhabit empty halls " ; and
emulate, not men who probe these trifles, but who
have means and repute and other good things in
plenty.
soc. If my
soul had happened to be made of gold,
Callicles, do you not think I should have been
delighted to find one of those stones with which
they test gold, and the best one ; which, if I applied
it, and it confirmed to me that my soul had been
properly tended, would give me full assurance that
I am in a satisfactory state and have no need of
other testing ?
call. What is the point of that question, Socrates ?
soc. I will tell you. I am just thinking what a
lucky stroke I have had in striking up with you.
call. How so ?
soc. I am certain that whenever you agree with
me in any view that my soul takes, this must be the
very truth. For I conceive that whoever would
sufficiently test a soul as to rectitude of fife or the
reverse should go to work with three things which
are all in your possession knowledge, goodwill,
and frankness. I meet with many people who are
unable to test me, because they are not wise as
you are ; while others, though wise, are unwilling
to tell me the truth, because they do not care for
me as you do ; and our two visitors here, Gorgias
and Polus, though wise and friendly to me, are more
lacking in frankness and inclined to bashfulness than
395
PLATO
rrjporepco p,aXXov rov Seovros' rroos yap ov; w

ye els rooovrov ato^wijs eXr/XvOarov, ware Sia
to ala^yveodai roXp,a ixarepos avrcov airos avrw
evavria Xeyew evavriov ttoXXcov dvdpcoTrcov, kcu.
ravra rrepl row p.eylarow. crv Se ravra navra
exeis, a ol aAAoi ovk eôvai' TTenaioevaai re yap
'
Ikovcos, cbs 770AA01 av (jrfcraiev AO-qvaicov , koi
efiol el evvovs. rlvi reKp,r]piop \pcop,ai; eyoj aoi
C epGi. of8a vp,ds eyco, a> KaAAi/cAeiy, rerrapas
ovras koivcovovs yeyovoras oo<f>las, ae re icai
' "
Tiaavopov rov A<f>iSvatov Kai Avhpcova rov
'Avbporltovos Kai NavcriKvSrjv rov XoAapyea- icat
rrore vp,cov eyco errrjKovcra fiovXevopevow , p-eyjpt.
ottoi rrjv ao<j>iav doK-qreov elrj, Kai oiSa ori eviKa
ev vpiiv roidSe ris Sofa, p-rj Trpodvp-eiadai els tt\v
aKpifieiav (j>iXoao(f>eiv , dXXd evXaf$eio~dai rrap-
D eKeXeveaOe dAAÂoiy, ottcos p,r] rtepa rov oeovros
ao<f>cbrepoi yevop,evoi Xrâere Sia<f)dapevres. i-ueiSij
ovv aov aKovco ravra ep,ol ovp.f5ovXevovros, airep
rots oeavrov eraiporarois , lkovov p,oi reKpvqpiov
iorw, on cos dXrjOws p,oi evvovs el. Kai p,rjv on
ye otos TrapprjmdêaOai Kai p,r) alo~)(vveo9ai,
airos re <f>jjs Kai 6 Xoyos ov dXiyov rrporepov
eXeyes opoXoyei aoi. ovrcoal 8rjXov on
817
e'êt
rovrcov nepi vvvi. edv n aii ev rots Xoyois opio-
E
Xoyrjorjs p.oi, fiefiaoavicrpevov rovr rjSri earai

LKavcos vtt ep,ov re Kai aov, Kai oi>Ken avro
he-qoei 677' dXXrjv fidaavov dvaêpeiv . oi yap av
Andron of the wise men who meet in the house

one
is
1
of Callias, Protag. 315 Nausicydes may be the wealthy

;
meal-merchant mentioned in Aristoph. Eccles. 426, and

Xen. Mem. ii. 7. 6. Of Tisander nothing known.
is
396
GORGIAS
they should be : nay, it must be so, when they

have carried modesty to such a point that each of
them can bring himself, out of sheer modesty, to
contradict himself in face of a large company, and
that on questions of the greatest importance. But
you have all these qualities which the rest of them
lack : you have had a sound education, as many
here in Athens will agree ; and you are well disposed
to me. You ask what proof I have ? I will tell
you. I know, Callicles, that four of you have
formed a partnership in wisdom you, Tisander of
Aphidnae, Andron, son of Androtion, and Nausicydes
of Cholarges ; x and I once overheard you debating
how far the cultivation of wisdom should be carried,
and I know you were deciding in favour of some
such view as this that one should not be carried
away into the minuter points of philosophy, but
you exhorted one another to beware of making
yourselves overwise, lest you should unwittingly
work your own ruin. So when I hear you giving me
the same advice as you gave your own most intimate
friends, I have proof enough that you really are
well disposed to me. And further, as to your ability
to speak out frankly and not be bashful, you not
only claim this yourself, but you are borne out
too by the speech that you made a short while ago.
Well, this is clearly the position of our question at
present : if you can bear me out in any point arising
in our argument, that point can at once be taken
as having been amply tested by both you and me,
and there will be no more need of referring it to
a further test ; for no defect of wisdom or access
397
PLATO
TTore avro av ovre oo<f>las eVSeta.

avvexa>pr]aas
ovr atoxvvrjs napovaia, ov8 av airarGyv ifie
ovyxajprioais av <f>LXos yap jxoi el, cbs Kal avros
<f>r)S.
ra> ovri ovv fj ep,r) Kal r) 017 6p.oXoyia reXos
rj8rj eei rfjs dXrjdelas. rravrutv Se KaXXiarr] earlv
r) OKeifiis, Si KaAAi'/cAets', irepi rovraiv aiv av 8rj
/xot eTrerifirjaas, rrdiov riva XPV elvai rov dv8pa
488 Kal riemrrjSeveiv Kal /xe^pi rov, Kal irpeafivrepov
Kal vearrepov ovr a. eyd> yap el n pyq opffcos
nparroy Kara rov fiiov rov ep.avrov, ev loOi rovro
on ovx iap,aprdva> dXX' dp,adla rfj epifj-
skojv
av ovv, (tiOTrep r)pt;a> vovderelv p,e, p,r/ dTToarijs,
dXX' iKavais /-tot evSeiâi, ri eari rovro o e-nn-q-
hevreov fjioi, Kal riva rponov Kr~qaaipvqv dv avro,
Kal edv Ad/3r)s vvv p,ev aoi 6p,oXoyqaavra, iv
p.e
8e ra> varepcp \povu> pvq ravra rrparrovra direp
B (LpLoXoyqaa, ndvv p.e rjyov /JAa/ca elvai /cat pvqKeri
TTore vovder-qarjs varepov, (lis p,7]oevos atjiov
p,e
A ovra. i dpx'qs Se p.01 eTravdXafie, ttcos ^>f/s ro

SiKaiov exeiv Kal av Kal TlivSapos to Kara <f>voiv;
dyew fiia rov Kpeirra) to rajv ryrrovow Kal dpêvv
rov fieXrlco rwv xeipovwv Kal irXeov eêtv rov
dp.eivco rov (pavXorepov ; pvr] ti aAAo Aeyeis ro
SiKaiov elvai, rj 6p9u>s pLep.vqp.ai;
kaaa. 'AAAo ravra eXeyov Kal rore /cat vvv
Xeycx).
2n. Horepov 8e rov avrov f$eXrla> KaXeis av
0 /cat KpeLrrio; ov8e yap roi rore oios r q p,a6eiv
aov ri irore Xeyois. rrorepov rovs laxvporepovs
Kpeirrovs KaXeis /cat Set aKpoaadai rov tcrû-
porepov rovs dadevearepovs, otov p,oi So/cet? /cat
398
GORGIAS
of modesty could ever have been your motive in

making this concession, nor again could you make it
to deceive me : for you are my friend, as you say
yourself. Hence any agreement between you and
me must really have attained the perfection of
truth. And on no themes could one make more
honourable inquiry, Callicles, than on those which
you have reproached me with what character one
should have, and what should be one's pursuits and
up to what point, in later as in earlier years. For I
assure you that if there is any fault of conduct to
be found in my own life it is not an intentional error,
but due to my ignorance : so I ask you not to break
off in the middle of your task of admonishing me,
but to make fully clear to me what it is that I ought
to pursue and by what means I may attain it ; and
if you find me in agreement with you now, and after
wards failing to do what I agreed to, regard me as a
regular dunce and never trouble any more to ad
monish me again a mere good-for-nothing. Now,
go right back and repeat to me what you and Pindar
hold natural justice to consist in : is it that the
superior should forcibly despoil the inferior, the
better rule the worse, and the nobler have more
than the meaner ? Have you some other account
to give of justice, or do I remember aright ?
call. Why, that is what I said then, and I say it
now also.
" "
soc. Is it the same person that you call better
" "
For I must say I was no more
and superior ?
able then to understand what your meaning might

be. Is it the stronger folk that you call superior,
and are the weaker ones bound to hearken to the
stronger one as for instance I think you were
399
PLATO
Tore evheucwadai, <hs al p,eydXat noXeis em ras

afMiKpas Kara to <f>voei oiKaiov epxovrai, on Kpeir-
tovs eloi kcli loyyporepai, cos to KpeiTTOv /cai
lo~xypoT.pov Kal fiehnov ravrov ov, rj eon êXrCco
p.ev etvai, -^ttcj 8e /ecu aoQeveorepov, Kal KpeiTTco
p,ev etvai, pô^drjpoTepov Se* rj 6 avros opos earl
D tov fieXriovos Kal tov KpeiTTOvos ; tovto p,oi avro
oa<f)6os oiopiaov, ravrov rj erepov
eon to Kpetrrov
Kal to jSeAnov Kal to layvporepov ;
kaaa. 'AAA' eya> ooi oa<f)WS Xeyoj, on ravrov
ionv.
2ft. OvKOVV Ol TToXXol TOV eVOS KpeiTTOVS lO~l
Kara ol Kal rovs vop,ovs ndevrai errl

Sr)
<f>voiv;
ra evl, tboirep Kal ov apri eXeyes.
kaaa. Ileus yap ov;
2a. Td twv rroXXoov apa vdtutia. to, row Kpeirro-
vojv eoriv.
kaaa. Haw ye.
2fl. Qvkovv ra tcov fieXnovojv ol yap Kpeir-
E
tovs fieXriovs ttoXv Kara, tov obv Adyov.

kaaa. Nai.
2fl. Qvkovv to. tovtcov vo/xt/xa Kara, <f)VOiv KaXd,
KpeiTTOvcov ye ovtiov;
\
kaaa. Orjttt.
2n. TAp' ovv ol 7toAAoi vop,lovoiv ovroos, d>s
dpn av oil eXeyes, oiKaiov etvai to ioov eêiv /cat
489 alox<-ov to aoiKeiv tov doiKeiodai; eon ravra
rj
ov; Kal ottcos p-r) aXworj evravda ov aloxwopievos'

vop.it,ovoiv ov, ol iroXXol to loov eêiv dAA' ov
rj
,
400
GORGIAS
also pointing out then, that the great states attack

the little ones in accordance with natural right,
because they are superior and stronger, on the
ground that the superior and the stronger and the
better are all the same thing ; or is it possible to
be better and yet inferior and weaker, and to be
superior and yet more wicked ? Or is the definition
of the better and the superior the same ? This
is just what I bid you declare in definite terms
whether the superior and the better and the stronger
are the same or different.
call. Well, I tell you plainly, they are all the same.
soc. Now, are the many superior by nature to the
one ? I mean those who make the laws to keep a
check on the one, as you were saying yourself just
now.
call. Of course.
soc. Then the ordinances of the many are those
of the superior.
call. Certainly.
soc. And so of the better ? For the superior are
far better, by your account.
call. Yes.
"
soc. And so their ordinances are by nature fair,"
since they are superior who made them ?
I
call. agree.
soc. Then is it the opinion of the many that
as you also said a moment ago justice means
having an equal share, and it is fouler to wrong
than be wronged ? Is that so, or not ? And mind
you are not caught this time in a bashful fit. Is it,
or is it not, the opinion of the many that to have
one's equal share, and not more than others, is just,
vol. v 2d 401
PLATO
to nXeov Sikoliov etvai, /cat alo~)(iov to aSiKetv tov
d8iKeiadai; p,r) <f>66vei p,oi aTTOKpivaadai tovto,
KaAAi'/cAets, lv', edv p,oi 6p,oXoyqcrrjs, )8e/3aioj-
actifiai rj8tj irapa aov, are iKavov dvSpos 8ia-
yvwvai cbfioXoyr/KOTOS.
kaaa. 'AAA' 01 ye noXXol vop,it,ovaiv ovtco?.
2fl. Ov vofMcp dpa p,6vov ecrrlv atoyiov to
d8i/ceiv tov d8iKeicrdai, ov8e SIkcuov to to-ov
B XUV> dXXd /cat ujare KivSweveis ovk
<f>vaei'
dXrjdfj Xeyeiv ev Tots irpoadev oii8e dpdws ifMOV
KaTrjyopeiv Xeycov, on evavTiov eariv o vouos /cat
a tois
8r/
r) <f>vcris, /cat eydi yvovs KaKovpyu) ev
Xoyois, edv p,ev tis /card <f>vaiv Xeyrj, enX tov vofiov
dycov, edv 8e tis /card tov vopiov, em tt)v <j>vaiv.
kaaa. Ovroal dvfjp ov TTavcreTat, <f>Xvapwv. el-ne
TiWKpares, ovk alayyvrj, ttjXikovtos ojv,
<5
/xot,
6vop,aTa /cat eav tis prjp.aTi auapTj),
C
drjpevcov,
epp.ai.ov tovto iroiovp,evos ep,e yap oiei aXXo ti
;
Xiyeiv to KpeiTTOvs etvai to fieXTiovs; ov wdXai

r)
croi Xeyco, on, TavTov <f>rjp,i etvai to (HXtiov koi

to KpelTTOv; oiei p,e Xeyeiv, eav ovp<peTos
fj
cruXXeyfj 8ovXa>v /cat Travro8aTTU)V dvdpcoTrcov p.rj-

8evos dlcov irXr)v torcos tu> oa>p,aTi lo~xvpiaaadai,
/cat ourot (f>a>criv
arm,1 Tavra etvai, vop,ip,a;
2n. Eiey, KaAAi'/cAety ovrca Xeyeis;
<L
oocfrcoTare
D kaaa. Ildvv p,ev o5v.
2n. 'AAA' eydi p.ev, Sai/xoVte, /cat auroy
c5
7rdAat TOTrdûi toiovtov ti ae Xeyeiv to KpeiTTOv,

4tto Heindorf airk mss.
1
402
GORGIAS
and that it is fouler to wrong than be wronged ?
Do not grudge mean answer to this, Callicles,

so that if I find you agree with me I may then
have the assurance that comes from the agreement
of a man so competent to decide.
call. Well, most people do think so.
soc. Then it is not only by convention that doing
wrong is fouler than suffering it, and having one's
equal share is just, but by nature also : and therefore
it looks as though your previous statement was
untrue, and your count against me incorrect, when
you said that convention and nature are opposites and
that I, forsooth, recognizing that, am an unscrupulous
debater, turning to convention when the assertion
refers to nature, and to nature when it refers to
convention.
call. What an inveterate driveller the man is !
Tell me, Socrates, are you not ashamed to be word-
catching at your age, and if one makes a verbal slip,
to take that as a great stroke of luck ? Do you
"
imagine that, when I said being superior," I meant
" "
anything else than better ? Have I not been
telling you ever so long that I regard the better and
the superior as the same thing ? Or do you suppose
I mean that if a pack of slaves and all sorts of fellows
who are good for nothing, except perhaps in point

of physical strength, gather together and say some
thing, that is a legal ordinance ?
soc. Very well, most sapient Callicles : you mean
that, do you ?
call. Certainly I do.
soc. Why, my wonderful friend, I have myself
i been guessing ever so long that you meant some
"
thing of this sort by superior," and if I repeat my
403
PLATO
/cat avepcora> yXi)(6p,evos oa<f>d>s etSevat o ti
Xeyeis. ou yap Sr/nov av ye rovs ovo fieXnovs
ijyjj rov evos, ouSe rovs aovs 8ovXovs fleXriovs
aov, on layyporepoi elaiv rf av. aAAa irdXiv e
apx^js sine, ri -nore Xeyeis rovs fleXr'iovs, iireiSri
ov rovs urxypoTepovs ; /cat to 8avp,daie npaorepov
)U.e 7rpo8ioaoK, "va p,rj aTTO(f>oirr]oci) irapd aov.
E kaaa. l&lpcovevr) , a) Sw/cpare?.

SO. Ma. rov Zfjdov, ai KaAAt/cAei?, a) ail xpco-
8rj
irpos jtte" aAA'
fievos noXXd vvv elpoivevov t0i
elire, rivas Xeyeis rovs peXriovs etvai;
kaaa. Tow dp,eivovs eycoye.
2n. Opas dpa, Sri ai) avros 6vop.ara Xeyeis,
SrjXois 8e ovSev; ovk epeis, rovs fieXriovs /cat
Kpeirrovs irorepov rovs <f>povip.corepovs Xeyeis
y
dXXovs rivds;
kaaa. 'AAAd vat jLta Ata rovrovs Xeyco, /cat
a<f>6opa ye.
490 2n. dpa els <f>povuiv pivpicov p,rj
IIoAAa/cts'
<f>povovvra)v Kpeirrutv earl Kara rov aov Xoyov,
/cat rovrov dpxîv Set, rovs
8'
dpxeadai, /cat wXeov

e%eiv rov apyovra ru>v apxpp.evcov rovro ydp
/xot So/cets fiovXeadai Xeyeiv /cat ov p-qpiart
drjpeva) et ets rcov p,vpt,cov Kpeirraiv.
6
kaaa. 'AAAa. ravr' eariv a Xeya>. rovro yap

otp-ai iyco ro St'/catov etvat <j)voei, ro fleXrito ovra
/cat <f>povifj,d>repov /cat dp%eiv /cat nXeov e\eiv
rdiv cpavXorepcov .
avrov. ri irore aS vvv Xeyeis;

817
2&.
B
"Eê
404
GORGIAS
questions it is because I
am so keen to know de
finitely what your meaning may be. For I presume
you do not consider that two are better than one,
or that your slaves are better than yourself, just
because they are stronger than you are. Come
now, tell me again from the beginning what it is
you mean by the better, since you do not mean the
stronger : only, admirable sir, do be more gentle
I
with me over my first lessons, or shall cease attend
ing your school.
call. You are sarcastic, Socrates.
soc. No, by Zethus, Callicles, whom you made use
of just now x for aiming a good deal of sarcasm at me :
but come, tell us whom you mean by the better.
call. I mean the more excellent.
soc. So you see, you are uttering mere words
yourself, and explaining nothing. Will you not tell us
whether by the better and superior you mean the
wiser, or some other sort ?
call. Why, to be sure, I mean those, and very
much so.
soc. Then one wise man is often superior to ten
thousand fools, by your account, and he ought to
rule and they to be ruled, and the ruler should
have more than they whom he rules. That is what
you seem to me to intend by your statement
and I am not word-catching here if the one is
superior to the ten thousand.
call. Why, that is my meaning. For this is what
I regard as naturally just that being better and
wiser he should have both rule and advantage over
the baser people.
soc. Stop there now. Once more, what is your
1 Above, 486 a.
405
PLATO
eav ev rep avrip wp.ev, cooTrep vvv, 7roAAot dOpooi
[avdpcoTTOi],1 Kau TjpXv rj ev kolvco rroXXd atria
Kai ttotol, cop,ev 8e iravroSanol, ol p,ev laxvpoi,
ol 8e dodevels, els Se r)p,a>v fj <f>povip,turepos irepl
ravra, larpos lov, fj 84, otov ei/cd?, rcov p,ev layy-
porepos, rtov 8e daQev4o~repos, dXXo ri r) odros,
<f>povip,d>repos r/p-utv lov, fieXrlatv Kai Kpelrrtov
earai els ravra;
kaaa. Udvv ye.
q SQ. TH oSv rovrtov rcov cnrlcov rrX4ov r)p.cbv
eKreov aircp, Sri êXrlcov earlv, rj rep p,ev apxeiv
ndvra eKelvov Set vejiew, ev he rco avaXloKeiv
re avrd Kai Karaxprjadai els ro eavrov acop.a
ov nXeoveKrrjreov, el p.rj p.4XXei, rjjii.ovcjdai., dXXd
rcov p,ev ttX4ov, rcov 8' eXarrov eKreov eav Se
rvxjl rrdvrcov aadeveararos cov, rravrcov eXd\i-
arov rep fieXrlorcp, to KaAAt/cAet?; ov\ ovrcos,
co 'ya04;
kaaa. Ylepl air la Xeyets Kai irora /cat larpovs
D nal <j)Xvaplas% eycb 8e ov ravra Xeyco.
2fl. Ylorepov ovv rov cf>povi.p,c6rpov fieXrlco
Xeyeis; cf>d6t. fj pvrj.
kaaa. "Eya>ye.
2n. 'AAA' ov rov êXrlco rtXeov Setv eyeiv;
kaaa. 0i5 oirlcov ye ov8e norcov.
2fl. M.av9dvco, dXX' locos Ifiarlcov, Kai Set rov
vcf>avri,Kcorarov p,eyiorov lji.dri.ov exew Ka' rrXeiara
Kai KaXXiora apvnexop-evov Trepuevai;
kaaa. Holcov ifiarlcov;
Sn. 'AAA' els VTTo8rjpiara 8r)Xov on Set rrXeov-
E eKrelv rov c\>povijicorarov els ravra Kai êXriarov.
1
dvBpuwot om. Burnet.
406
GORGIAS
meaning this time ? Suppose that a number of us

are assembled together, as now, in the same place,
and we have in common a good supply of food and
drink, and we are of all sorts some strong, some
weak ; and one of us, a doctor, is wiser than the
rest in this matter and, as may well be, is stronger
than some and weaker than others ; will not he,
being wiser than we are, be better and superior in
this affair ?
call. Certainly.
soc. Then is he to have a larger ration than the
rest of us because he is better, or ought he as ruler
to have the distribution of the whole stock, with
no advantage in spending and consuming it upon
his own person, if he is to avoid retribution, but
merely having more than some and less than others ?
Or if he chance to be the weakest of all, ought he
not to get the smallest share of all though he be the
best, Callicles ? Is it not so, good sir ?
call. You talk of food and drink and doctors
and drivel : I refer to something different.
soc. Then tell me, do you call the wiser better ?
Yes or no ?
call. Yes, I do.

soc. But do you not think the better should have
a larger share ?
call. Yes, but not of food and drink.
soc. I see ; of clothes, perhaps
and the ablest
;
weaver should have the largest coat, and go about

arrayed in the greatest variety of the finest
clothes ?
call. What have clothes to do with it ?

soc. Well, shoes then ; clearly he who is wisest in
regard to these, and best, should have some advan
407
PLATO
TOV OKVTOTOfJLOV LOCOS /.leyiCFTO. Set VTToSTJfjLdTa
Kal rrXelara vrrooeoep,evov rrepirrarelv .
KAAA. Iloia vrrohr]p.ara; <f>Xvapels effort".
2n. AAA' ei p,r) to. roiavra Xeyeis, locos rd
roidoe- olov yecopyiKov dvdpa rrepl yfjv <f>povip.6v
re /cat KaXov /cat rovrov Set
8r)
dyaOov, locos
rrXeoveKreiv rcov orrepp-droov /cat cos rrXeiarco
aTti.pp.ari xprjoOai els rr)v avrov yfjv.
KAAA. 'Q,s del raiird Xeyeis, to HcoKpares.
2n. 0t5 p,6vov ye, c3
KaAAi/cAetj, dAAa. Kal rrepl
rcov avrcov.
491 KAAA. rovs deovs, dre)(vcos ye del oKvreas
N17
re Kal Kva(f>eas Kal p,ayelpovs Xeycov Kal larpovs
ovoev rravrj, cos rrepl rovroov r/p/iv ovra rdv Xoyov.
2n. Ovkovv ov epeis rrepl rlvcov Kpelrrcov
6
re /cat <f>povip.corepos rrXeov e^cov SiKaicos rrXeov-
e/cTet; ovre ep,ov vrrofidXXovros ovr'
rj
dver)
avros epels;
KAAA. 'AAA' eycoye KalrrdXai Xeyco. rrpcorov
rovs Kpeirrovs ol eioiv ov oKvrorop.ovs Xeyco
B
p.ev
dv els rd rfjs rroXecos
ot
ovSe p,ayelpovs, dXX'

rrpdyp,ara <f>povip,oi (Law, ovriva dv rporrov eS
oiKoiro, Kal p/r) p,6vov <f>povip,oi, dXXd Kal dvopeioi,
IkovoI ovres a dv vorjocooiv emreXeiv, /cat pur)
drroKapvcoai 01a p.aXaKiav rfjs ^VXVS-

2n. 'Opas, 00
fieXnore KaAAi'/cAeis, cos ov
raira ov r ep.ov Karrjyopeis /cat eyeb aov; oil
p.ev yap ep.e <f>fjs del raira Xeyeiv, /cat p,epuf>y
408
GORGIAS
tage. Perhaps the shoemaker should walk about in

the biggest shoes and wear the largest number.
call. Shoes what have they to do with it ? You
keep on drivelling.
soc. Well, if you do not mean things of that sort,
perhaps you mean something like this : a farmer,
for instance, who knows all about the land and is
highly accomplished in the matter, should perhaps
have an advantage in sharing the seed, and have the
largest possible amount of it for use on his own
land.
call. How you keep repeating the same thing,
Socrates !
soc. Yes, and not only that, Callicles, but on the
same subjects too.
call. I believe, on my soul, you absolutely cannot
ever stop talking of cobblers and fullers, cooks and
doctors, as though our discussion had to do with
them.
soc. Then will you tell me in what things the
superior and wiser man has a right to the advantage
of a larger share f Or will you neither put up with
a suggestion from me nor make one yourself ?
call. Why, I have been making mine for some
" "
time past. First of all, by the superior I mean,
not shoemakers or cooks, but those who are wise
as regards public affairs and the proper way of
conducting them, and not only wise but manly,
with ability to carry out their purpose to the full ;
and who will not falter through softness of soul.
soc. Do you perceive, my excellent Callicles, that
your count against me is not the same as mine
against you ? For you say I am ever repeating the
'
same things, and reproach me with it, whereas I
409
PLATO
iycb Se aov TowavTtov, oti ouSeVore Toura

(iotm
C Xeyets nept tcov axnrcov, dXXd rore (lev tovs fieArtovs
re /cat KpetTTOVS roi>s layyporepovs cbpit,ov, avdts
Se rovs cf>povt(icorepovs , vvv S' av erepov rt T^/ceis
e^cuv avSpeiorepol fives vtto aov XeyovTCti 01
KpetTTOVS Kal ol fieArtovs. dXX', cu 'ya8e, etTTcbv
aTraXXdyrjOt, Ttvas irork Xeyets tovs fieArtovs re
KCLt KpetTTOVS KCLt el? O Tl.
kaaa. 'AAA' etprjKa ye eycoye tovs cftpoviptovs
els t<x Trjs iroXecos TTpaypta/ra Kal dvSpeiovs-
D tovtovs yap TrpoarjKet tcov noXecov dpxetv, Kal
to htKatov tovt io~Tt, eêtv tovtovs
TrXeov tcov
, dAAcov, tovs dp\ovTas tcov ap)(op.evcov.
2n. Tt Se; avTcov, co eTatpe; [ti f/ Tt dpxovTas
7] dpxop>evovs ;Y
kaaa. Hcos Xeyets;
Sfi. "Eva eKaoTov Xeyco avTov eavrov dpxovra'
tovto p,ev ovoev Set, avrov eavTov dpxetv, tcov
fj
Se aAAwj';
kaaa. Hcos eavTov dpxovTa Xeyets;
2fi. 0v8ev TTOtKtXov, dXX cocnrep ol ttoXXoL, aco-
SvTa /cat eyKpaTrj avTov eavTov, tcov Tfhovcov
cf>pova
Kal emdvpttcov dpxovTa tcov ev eavrco.
E
KAAA. 'Q.S rjSiis et' tovs rjXtdtovs Xeyets tovs

ad><f>povas .
sn. Hcos yap [on]2 oiSeis ootis ovk av

;
yvoit], oTt ov tovto Xeyco.

KAAA. Ilavu ye o<f>68pa, co TiWKpaTes. eVei
7rcS? av evSatp,cov yevovro dvOpconos hovXevcov
orcpovv; dXXd toiit' eWi to /caret <f>vatv koXov
Kat StKatov, o eyco aot vvv Trappr)ota6ptevos Xeyco,
rl . . dp%o/j.4i'ovs; om. Bekker. otf seel. Routh.
1
2
.
410
GORGIAS
charge you, on the contrary, with never saying the

same thing on the same subject ; but at one moment
you defined the better and superior as the stronger,
and at another as the wiser, and now you turn
" "
up again with something else : the manlier is
what you now tell us is meant by the superior and
better. No, my good friend, you had best say,
and get it over, whom you do mean by the better
and superior, and in what sphere.
call. But I have told you already : men of
wisdom and manliness in public affairs. These are
the persons who ought to rule our cities, and justice
means this that these should have more than
other people, the rulers than the ruled.
soc. How so ? Than themselves, my friend ?
call. What do you mean ?
soc. I
mean that every man is his own ruler ; or
is there no need of one's ruling oneself, but only
of ruling others ?
call. What do you mean by one who rules himself ?
soc. Nothing recondite ; merely what most people
mean one who is temperate and self-mastering,
ruler of the pleasures and desires that are in
himself.
call. You will have your pleasantry You mean
" the
!
" "
simpletons by the temperate."
soc. How so ? I do
Nobody can fail to see that
not mean that.
call. Oh, you most certainly do, Socrates. For
how can a man be happy if he is a slave to anybody
at all ? No, natural fairness and justice, I tell you
now quite frankly, is this that he who would
411
PLATO
on Set tov opOcbs îa>a6p.evov Ta? p,ev imOvpUas

492 ? eavrov eav cu? fieyicrras elvcu /cat p,rj KoXdêtv,
tclvtcus Se co? /j.eylarais ovoais lkolvov etvai
VTTrjperetv avhpeiav Kal <j>p6vr)aLV, /cat drro-
St'
mpmXdvai, <Lv dv del rj emdvpla yiyvryrai. dAAd
tout', otp,ai, toi? rroXXols ov Svvarov odev ifie-
yovoi tovs tolovtovs St alo~xvvrjv, dnoKpvTTTO-
p,evoi rfjv avrciv dowapLiav, Kal alaxpov
Br/
<f>acrtv
elvat, Trjv aKoXamav, orrep ev toi? rrpoodev eyd>
eXeyov, BovXovp,evoi tovs fieXriovs ttjv <j>vcnv
dvdpd)TTOVs, /cat ov Bwdp,evot /C7roptea#ai
auTOt
Tat? TjSovai? nXfjpaiGtv eiraivovat. Trjv craxftpo-
B
crvvqv /cat Trjv SiKai.ocrvvrjV Sid Trjv avrwv dvavBpiav .

fiaoiXecov vleaiv
i
e-nei ye ols Q-PXys vrrrjpt;ev
rj
etvai avToiis rfj <f>vcrei Ikovovs eKTropLaacrdai
rj
dpxrjv Tiva TvpawiSa BvvaoTelav <ti dv>a

rj
rj
rfj dXrjdeia aia\iov Kal /cd/ciov etrj ao}<f>poavvr]s

/cat St/caioowry? toutoi? toi? dvOpumois' of? e6v
aTToXaveiv tuxv ayaddjv /cat p,rjBevos epuroScbv
ovto?, aurot eavrols Seairorrjv etraydyowTo tov
to>v ttoXXiov avdpojTrcov vop,ov Te /cat Xoyov Kal
tfioyov; irtos ovk dv adXioi yeyovores etrjaav
rj
vno tov koXov tov Trjs St/catoawi]? /cat tjj? aco<f>po-

Q
ovvrjs, p.rjSev rrXeov vep.ovTes toi? <f>iXois toi?

aureus toi? ix&pols, Kal Tavra apxovTes ev
r)
Tjg eavrcov rroXei; dAAd tjj dXrjdela, to 2co/cpaT?,

rjv ov Stai/ceiv, cSS' eêr Tpwj*7) /cai d/coAacrta
<f>f)s
Kal iXevOepia, idv emKovptav exj), tovt' earlv
apeTrj Te /cat . euoat/Ltovta- Ta oe aMa Tavr eort
Ta KaXXoimofiaTa, rd rrapa <f>voiv ovvdrj/xaTa
dvdpcoTTOJV, (f>Xvapla Kal ovSevos d^ta.
rl hv add. Woolsey.
1
412
GORGIAS
live rightly should let his desires be as strong as

possible and not chasten them, and should be able
to minister to them when they are at their height
by reason of his manliness and intelligence, and
satisfy each appetite in turn with what it desires.
But this, Isuppose, is not possible for the many ;
whence it comes that they decry such persons out
of shame, to disguise their own impotence, and are
so good as to tell us that licentiousness is disgraceful,
thus enslaving as I remarked before the better type
of mankind ; and being unable themselves to procure
achievement of their pleasures they praise temper
ance and justice by reason of their own unmanliness.
For to those who started with the advantage of being
either kings' sons or able by their own parts to procure
some authority or monarchy or absolute power,
what in truth could be fouler or worse than temper
ance and justice in such cases ? Finding themselves
free to enjoy good things, with no obstacle in the
way, they would be merely imposing on themselves
a master in the shape of the law, the talk and
the rebuke of the multitude. Or how could they
"
fail to be sunk in wretchedness by that " fairness of
ustice and temperance, if they had no larger portion
to give to their own friends than to their enemies,
and that too when they were rulers in their own
cities ? No, in good truth, Socrates which you
claim to be seeking the fact is this : luxury and
licentiousness and liberty, if they have the support
of force, are virtue and happiness, and the rest of
these embellishments the unnatural covenants of
mankind are all mere stuff and nonsense.
413
PLATO
D 2n. Owe dyewcos ye, co KaAAiKrAet?, eTregepxj)
tu> Xoyco TTapprjaiaô/Mevos' oacpcos yap ov vvv
Xeyeis, a ol aAAoi 8iavoovvrai p.iv, Xeyeiv 8e ovk
edeXovoiv. 8eofiai oSv eycb oov p.r]8evi rpoirco
dveivai, tva rai ovn Kard8rjXov yevrjTai ttcos
flicuTeov. (cui /noi Xeye' raj p,ev emOvjiias <f>rjs
ov KoXaoTeov, el p,eXXet. tis olov Set elvai, ecovra
8e avras cos fieylcrras irXr\pcooiv avrats dfioOev ye
TToBev eroip.aXêw , Kal tovto etvat ttjv aperrjv;
E kaaa. Oijyxt ravra eycb.
SO.. Ovk dpa opOcos Xeyovrai ol p,r)8evos Sed-
fxevoi evSal/jLOves etvai.
KAAA. Oi Xldoi yap dv ovtcq ye Kal ol veKpol
evhaipioveoTaToi elev.
2fl. 'AAAa. p,ev Kal cos ye ov Xeyeis 8ew6s
8r/
~^
ov ydp tol davp,doip,' dv,
el
jSt'os. Et5pt7ri'Sijy
6
dXrjOrj ev TotcrSe Xeyei, Xeycov
rls to ion KardaveZv,

el
6t8ev,
8'
t,r\v p,ev
to KaTdavelv 8e t,r\v;
493 Kal rjfieis to ovtl locos Te6vap.ev 17877 tov eycoye

Kai TjKovaa tcov oocf>cov, cos vvv rjfiels Tedva/xev,
Kal to p,ev ocop.d eoTiv rjfuv ofjp,a, Trjs 8e ff/vxrjs
tovto, ev co emdvp,lai elm, Tvyxdvei ov olov
avaTrelBeodai Kal [leTamTTTeiv dvco kotco; Kal
tovto dpa tis p,vdoXoycov dvrjp, laws
Kop,ifids
HiKeXos tis 'IraXiKOS, napdycov tu> 6v6fj,aTi Sid
rj
to mOavov Te Kal TreionKov tbvofiaoe rrlOov, tovs

Eurip. fr. (Polyidus).
1
The sage was perhaps Philolaus, a Pythagorean philo

a
sopher contemporary with Socrates. The phrase <r(o/ia crrifui,

suggesting a mystical similarity between "body" and
" tomb," was part of the Orphic doctrine.
414
GORGIAS
soc. Far from ignoble, at any rate, Callicles, is

the frankness with which you develop your thesis :
for you are now stating in clear terms what the
rest of the world think indeed, but are loth to say.
So I beg you not to give up on any account, that it
may be made really evident how one ought to live.
Now tell me : do you say the desires are not to be
chastened if a man would be such as he ought to
be, but he should let them be as great as possible
and provide them with satisfaction from some
source or other, and this is virtue ?
call. Yes, I say that.
soc. Then it is not correct to say, as people do,
that those who want nothing are happy.
call. No, for at that rate stones and corpses would
be extremely happy.
soc. Well, well, as you say, life is strange. For I
tell you I should not wonder if Euripides' words
were true, when he says :
Who knoweth if to live is to be dead,
And to be dead, to live ? *
and we really, it may be, are dead ; in fact I once

heard one of our sages say that we are now dead,
and the body is our tomb,2 and the part of the soul
in which we have desires is liable to be over-persuaded
and to vacillate to and fro, and so some smart
fellow, a Sicilian, I daresay, or Italian,3 made a fable
in which by a play of words * he named this part,
as being so impressionable and persuadable, a jar,
8 " Sicilian " may refer to Empedocles ; " Italian " to one
of the Pythagoreans.
* The play is with irt.6a.vbv and iridov : weio-rinSv is added
to explain that iri.8a.vbv is not used in its ordinary active
sense of
" impressive."
415
PLATO
B Se dvo-qrovs ap.vr/rovs' ra>v 8' dfivrp-oav rovro ttjs
*ln)X*)S> * ai
cmau/Mat etox, to d/CGAdo-roy aurou
/eat ou areyavov, d>? rerpr]p.evos el-q irldos, Std -r^v
ovros aol,
8tj
d77Arj0Tiav arreiKaoas. rovvavriov
a> KaAAi'/cAeiy, eVSei/cvvrai oj? t<Sv ev "AiSou to
ddies Aeyojv ovroi adXiorraroi dv elev, ot
Sr)
d/Avrp-oi, Kal <f>opoiev els rov rerpr/p.evov mdov
vScup erepoj rotovroj rerpr]p,eva> kookIvoj. to 8e
kookivov dpa Xeyei, cos e<j>rj npos ep.e Xiycav, ttjv
C
6
*val' <^ *lwXyv kooklvw aTrfjKaae rr/v
*IWX71V T7}v
rd)v avor/TCOv d>s rerp-qp,ivi]v, are ov 8vvap.evrjv
oreyew Si' dmarrlav re Kal Xrjdrjv. ravr' imeuca>s
p.ev eoruv vtto n drona, SrjXoi p.rjv eyd> f$ovXop.aL
8
dot evSe^dpevos edv ttcos otos re Si, rretaai
,
p.eradeoBai, dvri rov aTrX-qarws Kal aKoXdarcas

eyovros jSi'ou rov Koap,la>s Kal tols del trapovaiv
iKavGis Kal eijapKovvTcos e\ovra filov iXeaOai.
D dAAd trorepov rreida) rl ae Kal p.erarideadaL evSai-
pwveorepovs etvai rovs Koop.lovs ru>v aKoXdo~ra>v,
ovb" dv dXXa ttoXXol roiavra p,vdoXoyuj, ovhev n
rj
p,dXXov p.eradrjarf;
kaaa. Tour' Sto/cpaTes.
a)
etprjKas,
dXrjOecrrepov
2X1. Oepe hrj, SXXrjv aoi eiKova Xeyco k rov
avrov yvp-vaoiov rfj vvv. OKorrei yap ei roiovSe
Xeyeis rrepl rov /Si'ou eKarepov, rov re aco<f>povos
Kal rov aKoXaarov, olov Svolv dvopolv eKarepui
el
ttiOoi ttoAAoi elev, Kal ru> p.ev erepcp vyiecs Kal

E
TrXtfpeis, p,ev otvov, he p,eXtros, Se ydXatcros,

6
Kal dXXoi ttoXXoI TToXXcbv, vdp.ara Se orrdvia /ecu

The seems to have falsely derived dfuv^rovs from
1
with the meaning " unclosed," in order to

(To<t>d!
/ii5w = close),
with the notion of " cracked " or
" leaky."
(
connect
it
416
GORGIAS
and the thoughtless he called uninitiate : * in these

uninitiate that part of the soul where the desires
are, the licentious and fissured part, he named a
leaky jar in his allegory, because it is so insatiate
So you see this person, Callicles, takes the opposite
view to yours, showing how of all who are in Hades
meaning of course the invisible these uninitiate
will be most wretched, and will carry water into
their leaky jar with a sieve which is no less leaky.
And then by the sieve, as my story-teller said, he
means the soul : and the soul of the thoughtless he
likened to a sieve, as being perforated, since it is
unable to hold anything by reason of its unbelief
and forgetfulness. All this, indeed, is bordering
pretty well on the absurd ; but still it sets forth
what I wish to impress upon you, if I somehow can,
in order to induce you to make a change, and instead
of a life of insatiate licentiousness to choose an
orderly one that is set up and contented with what
it happens to have got. Now, am I at all prevailing
upon you to change over to the view that the orderly
people are happier than the licentious ; or will no
amount of similar fables that I might tell you have
any effect in changing your mind ?
call. The latter is more like the truth, Socrates.
soc. Come now, let me tell you another parable
from the same school 2 as that I have just told.
Consider if each of the two lives, the temperate
and the licentious, might be described by imagining
that each of two men had a number of jars, and those
of one man were sound and full, one of wine, another
of honey, a third of milk, and various others of
various things, and that the sources of each of these
2
Probably of Pythagoras.
vol. v 2e 417
PLATO
XaXeird eKaoTov rovrcov Kal ttoXXujv

eir/ fierd
novum Kai xaAe7raw iKiropi6/j,evam 6 p,ev oSv erepos
TrXrjpwadfj,evos pvf\r inoxeTevoi fi-qre tl <f>povrtoi,
aXX eveKa rovrcov "qavîav eôf rV Tepa> T<*'
va/xara, axnrep Kal eKelvcp, Sward fiev TTopLZ,e-
fxev
oOai, xaXerra 8e, ra 8' dyyeia rerprffieva Kal craOpd,
494 avay/caoiTo 8' del Kal vvKra Kal rjfiepav th/a-
TrAavai avrd, rj ras eoâVa? Xvttoito Xvnas' dpa
toiovtov eKarepov ovtos rod Biov, Xeyeis tov tov
aKoXdarov ev8aifxovarepov elvai 7) tov tov ko-
apuov; Treidco tL ae ravra Xeyuyv avyx<mp1\ao.i tov
Koofxiov Biov tov aKoXdoTov dfjieivw elvai, rj ov

7rei6a> ;
kaaa. Oi5 7761061?, cS yap
Sc/j/cpare?. r<3 /xev
TrXrjpwoapiivu) eKeivo) ovKer' eoriv ijSovt) oi8efJ.ia,
dXXd tout' eoriv, o vvv eyu> eXeyov, to aiairep
S19
Xidov rjv, 67Tei8av TrXrjpwori, /Mr/re %aipovTa eri

dXX' iv toi'toi earl to rfiems
B
fJ.rjTe XvTTOvjjievov .
fryv, ev tu> a>? nXeioTov emppeiv.
2n. Ovkovv dvdyKrj y', dv ttoXv empperj, ttoXv
Kai to dmdv elvai, Kal fieydX drra Ta Tprj/iara
elvai Tat? e/cpoat?;
kaaa. Haw fiev ovv.
2n. XapaSpiou Tivd av ov Xeyeis, dXX ov
/Si'ov
veKpov oi8e Xidov. Kal wot Aeye- to ToioVSe Xeyeis
olov Treivfjv Kal TreivdJVTa iadieiv;
kaaa. "Eycoye.
2n. Kai 8itfrfjv ye Kal 8itpa)VTa mveiv;
C
kaaa. Aeyat, Kal Tas aAAa? ri0t;/xia? anaaas

418
GORGIAS
supplies were scanty and difficult and only available

through much hard toil : well, one man, when he
has taken his fill, neither draws off any more nor
troubles himself a jot, but remains at ease on that
score ; whilst the other finds, like his fellow, that
the sources are possible indeed, though difficult,
but his vessels are leaky and decayed, and he is
compelled to fill them constantly, all night and
day, or else suffer extreme distress. If such is the
nature of each of the two fives, do you say that the
licentious man has a happier one than the orderly ?
Do I, with this story of mine, induce you at all to
concede that the orderly life is better than the
licentious, or do I fail ?
call. You fail, Socrates. For that man who has
taken his fill can have no pleasure any more ;
in fact it is what I just now called living like a
stone, when one has filled up and no longer feels any
joy or pain. But a pleasant life consists rather in the
largest possible amount of inflow.
soc. Well then, if the inflow be large, must not
that which runs away be of large amount also, and
must not the holes for such outflow be of great
size ?
call. Certainly.
soc. Then it is a plover's life 1 you are describing
this time, not that of a corpse or a stone. Now
tell me, is the fife you mean something like feeling
hunger and eating when hungry ?
call. Yes, it is.
soc. And feeling thirst and drinking when thirsty ?
call. Yes, and having all the other desires, and
1
Referring to this bird's habit of drinking water and then
ejecting it.
419
PLATO
eôvTa Kal hwdp-evov TrXrjpovv âipovra evSat/xovcos
sn. EiJye, t5 jSeATtcrre- SiareXei yap cocnrep

rjpfjco, Kal ottcos p,r) dnaiaxwfj. Set 8e, chs eoiKe,
p.r/8 aTraiaxvvdfjvai..
ep.e Kal TrpwTov fxev elire, el
Kal i/taipiovTa Kai KvqaicovTa, a<j>dovcus exovra tov
KvijaOai, Kvd\p.evov SiareXowra tov jSi'ov evoaifio-
VOJS <TTl t,V)V.
D kaaa. 'Qs droTTos el, a> Sco/fpare?, Kal aTexycos
8-qp,r)y6pos.
.' sa. ToiydpToi, w KaAAi/cAs, H&Xov p.h> Kal
Yopyiav Kal eêVAâ Kal alaxvveadat inoLTjaa,
oil Se ov p.r) eKnXayfjs ovoe p.r) alaxyvOfjs' dvSpeios
yap el. dXX' dtroKpivov p.6vov.
KAAA. 7J/LH TOIVW Kai TOV KV<I)p.VOV r/OeOiS OV
fiicovai.
sn,. Ovkow enrep rjoecos, Kal evSaip.6vcos ;
kaaa. Wdw ye.
E sn. HoTepov el ttjv Ke<f>aXrjV fiovov Kvrjaitp, r)
Iri tL ae epaiTw; Spa, a> KaMi'/cAtty, ti aTroKpivfj,
edv tIs ae rd exdp,eva tovtois e<f>erjs diravra
ipioTa' Kal Tovroiv tolovtcov ovtiov Ke<f>dXaiov, 6
tcov KivaiScov filos, oStos ov Beivos Kal alaxpos
Kal ddXios; r) tovtovs ToXp-rjaet-s Xeyeiv evoai-
fiovas elvai, edv d<f>Q6vcos exwo~LV wv oeovrai;
kaaa. Ovk alaxuvrj els roiaura dycov, a> 2ti-
KpaTes, tovs Xoyovs;
2Q. *H yap iyto dya) evravOa, to yewaie, rj
eKeivos, os dv <f>fj dveo-qv ovrco tovs xatpoiraj,
495 ottcjs dv ev8alp.ovas
xa^Pcoaiv> elvai, Kal p.r)
Siopi^rjTai tcov ijSovdiv cmolai. dyadal Kal kokoL;
420
GORGIAS
being able to satisfy them, and so with these enjoy

ments leading a happy life.
soc. Bravo, my fine fellow ! Do go on as you have
begun, and mind you show no bashfulness about it.
I too, it seems, must try not to be too bashful.
First of all, tell me whether a man who has an itch
and wants to scratch, and may scratch in all freedom,
can pass his life happily in continual scratching.
call. What an odd person you are, Socrates
a regular stump-orator !
soc. Why, of course, Callicles, that is how I
upset Polus and Gorgias, and struck them with
bashfulness ; but you, I know, will never be upset
or abashed ; you are such a manly fellow. Come,
just answer that.
call. Then I say that the man also who scratches
himself will thus spend a pleasant life.
soc. And if a pleasant one, a happy one also ?
call. Certainly.
soc. Is it so if he only wants to scratch his head?
Or what more am I to ask you ? See, Callicles,
what your answer will be, if you are asked every
thing in succession that links on to that statement ;
and the culmination of the case, as stated the
life of catamites is not that awful, shameful, and
wretched ? Or will you dare to assert that these
are happy if they can freely indulge their wants ?
call. Are you not ashamed, Socrates, to lead the
discussion into such topics ?
soc. What, is it I who am leading it there, noble
sir, or the person who says outright that those who
enjoy themselves, with whatever kind of enjoyment,
are happy, and draws no distinction between the
good and bad sorts of pleasure ? But come, try
421
PLATO
dAA' en Kal vvv Xeye, irorepov (fyfjs elvai to clvto

r)8v Kal dyadov, r) elvai tl tojv rj8ea>v, o ovk eomv
ayadov;
'Iva
8rj
KAAA. fioi p.r) dvop.oXoyovp.evos o
r)
Xoyos, edv 'erepov <f)rjoa> elvai, to aino (f)rjp.i elvai.
KaAAucAeis, tovs TTpcurovs
<L
Aia<f)9eipeis,
2X1.
Xoyovs, Kal ovk av en per' ejjiov ikovws to. ovra

eêrdôis, elirep napd rd SoKowra aavrcp epets.
kaaa. Kat yap av, a> HcoKpares.
B
2X1. Ou roivvv opdws ttoioi out' eya>, eiTtep

TTOia> tovto, ovre av. aAA',
ai
pai<dpie, dQpei, ju.17
ov tovto to dyadov, to iravTOis xaipeiv ravrd
ij
Te yap to. vvv or) alvixdevTa TroXXd Kal alaxpd

tovto ovtcos Ka*
el
c/>aiveTai avp,âivovTa, exl>
aAAa TToXkd.
kaaa. Q.s av ye o'lei, u> SaWpares.
2X1. Su he t<3 ovti, a> KaAAi'/cAei?, ravra laxv-
kaaa. "Eycuyc.

'Emxeipcopiev
2X1. dpa Tip Xoya) ws aov airov-
C
odôvTos;
kaaa. Haw ye o<f>68pa.
orj
2X1. "I81 p,oi, eireihr) ovra) So/cei, SieAou TaSe"

'
imaT'qfjirjV ttov KaXeis ti;

kaaa. "Eya>ye.
0i5 Kal dvopeiav vvv eXeyes riva elvai
8r)
2X1.
p.eTa emoTrjp.r)s;
kaaa. "EAeyov yap.
2X1. "AAAo Tt ovv cos erepov tt)v dvopeiav rfjs
eTTiOTrjfiris ovo TavTa eXeyes;
Of. 482 d, where Callicles blamed Polus for not saying

1
what he really thought.

422
GORGIAS
again now and tell me whether you say that pleasant

and good are the same thing, or that there is some
pleasure which is not good.
call. Then, so that my statement may not be
inconsistent through my saying they are different,
I say they are the same.
soc. You are spoiling your first statements,1
Callicles, and you can no longer be a fit partner
with me in probing the truth, if you are going to
speak against your own convictions.
call. Why, you do the same, Socrates.
soc. Then I am just as much in the wrong if I
do, as you are. But look here, my gifted friend,
perhaps the good is not mere unconditional enjoy
ment : for if it is, we have to face not only that
string of shameful consequences I have just shadowed
forth, but many more besides.
call. In your opinion, that is, Socrates.
soc. And do you, Callicles, really maintain that
it is ?
call. I do.
soc. Then are we to set about discussing it as your
serious view ?
call. Oh yes, to be sure.

soc. Come then, since that is your opinion, resolve
me this : there is something, I suppose, that you
call knowledge ?
call. Yes.
soc. And were you not saying just now that
knowledge can have a certain courage coupled
with it ?
call. Yes, I was.

soc. And you surely meant that they were two
things, courage being distinct from knowledge ?
423
PLATO
kaaa. Ti(f>6Spa ye.

D Sn. Tt Se; rjSovrjv /cat emorrjp.rjV ravrov rj
erepov;
KAAA. "Erepov 8t]ttov, d> ao<f>d>rare av.
2n. TH /cat dvSpelav erepav rjSovfjs;
kaaa. Ileus yap ov;
2n. Oepe ravra, oti
Sr)
ottios p,efj,vrjo6p,eda
KaAAi/cA^s e^rj 'Aâpvevs r)8i> p,ev /cat dyadov
ravrov elvai, emarf]pYi]v Se /cat dvSpeiav Kal
aXXrjAcov /cat rov ayadov erepov.
kaaa. Sco/cpaT7js Se ye r)p,lv 'AAameKrjOev
6
ov)( ofioXoyel ravra. o/xoAoyet; r)
Ov% 6/xoXoyel' ot/xai Se ye ov8e KaAAt/cAr)?,
E
2*1.
orav airos avrov dedarjrai. opdcHs. ebne yap puoi,
roiis ev Trpdrrovras rols KaKcis rrparrovaw ov
rovvavriov r/yrj Trados nerrovdevai;
KAAA. "Eycoye.
sn. TAp' oSv, elirep evavria earl ravra dAAijAot?,
dvdyxT] irepl avrwv eêw wairep rrepl vyieias eêi
/cat voaov; ov yap dp.a hrjirov vyiaivei re /cat
vooeZ avdpamos, ov8e dfia drraWdrrerai vyieias
6
re /cat voaov.
II
KAAA. a) Ae'yei?;
?
496 2n. Otov rrepl orov j8oi>Aet rov awfiaros dno-

Aaf$d>v OKonei. voael ttov avdpamos o(f>daApx}vs,
a>
ovofxa 6<j)daA[x.ia
;
KAAA. Ua>s yap ov;

5fl. Ov Brjirov /cat iyiaivei ye a/ia rovs avrovs;
kaaa. Oj58' oTTcoariovv
.
sn. Tt Se orav rrjs 6(f>daXjj,ias diraWdrrrprai

;
apa rore Kal rrjs vyieias airaXXarrerai row
424
GORGIAS
call. Quite so.

soc. Well now, are pleasure and knowledge the
same thing, or different ?
I
call. Different, presume, O sage of sages.
soc. And courage too, is that different from
pleasure ?
call. Of course it is.
soc. Come now, let us be sure to remember this,
that Callicles the Acharnian said pleasant and good
were the same, but knowledge and courage were
different both from each other and from the good.
call. And Socrates of Alopece refuses to grant us
this ; or does he grant it ?
soc. He does not ; nor, I
believe, will Callicles
either, when he has rightly considered himself.
For tell me, do you not regard people who are well
off as being in the opposite condition to those who
are badly off ?
call. I do.
soc. Then if
these conditions are opposite to each
other, must not the same hold of them as of health
and disease ? For, you know, a man is never well
and ill at the same time, nor gets rid of health and
disease together.
call. How do you mean ?
soc. Take, for instance, any part of the body
I
you like by itself, and consider it. A man, suppose,
may have a disease of the eyes, called ophthalmia ?
call. Certainly.
soc. Then I
presume he is not sound also at that
time in those same eyes ?
call. By no conceivable means.
soc. And what say you, when he gets rid of his
ophthalmia ? Does he at that time get rid too of
425
PLATO
6<f>daXfj,cov /cat reXevratv a/xa a/jufxrrepiov dinqX-
Aa/crat;
kaaa. "H/cto-rd ye.
2G. Qavfj.dai.ov yap, otfiai, Kai dXoyov ylyverai-
fj yap;
B kaaa. Ti<f>6opa ye.
2fl. 'AAA' ev fiepei, ol/xai, eKarepov /cat Aait-
fSdvei /cat d7roAAuei;
kaaa. Qhfid.
2n. Ou/cow /cat larxyv /cat dodeveiav ihaavrios;
KAAA. Nat.
2Q. Kai raô? /cat PpaSvrfjra;
KAAA. Haw ye.
2fl.TH /cat Tayafld /cat tt^v evhaifwviav /cat
ravavria rovrcov, /ca/ca tc /cat aÂtonjTa, ev fxepei
AaitySdvet /cat ev fiepei dnaXXdrrerai. eKarepov;
KAAA. Hdvrios Sr/Trov.
C 2fl. 'Eav evpcofiev dpa drra,c5v dfia re 6\tt-
aXXdrTerai dvOpcoiros /cat a/xa eêi, StJAov ori
Tatrra ye oi)/c av etr^ to re ayadov /cat to kclkov.
oij.oXoyovfj.ev ravra; Kai ev fidXa OKeifjdfj.evos
drroKpivov.
kaaa. 'AAA VTrep<f)vcos cos oitoAoyco.
2fl. "Mi
Stj
em ret epsnpoovev <Lp.oXoyrjfj.eva.

to Tretvrjv eXeyes irorepov ijSu dvtapov etvai;
77
avro Xeyco to ireivip/.-

kaaa. 'Avtapav eyioye' to tteWot Treivajvra
eodieiv r/8v Xeyco.
D 2n. Mav#dva>-1 dAA' ovv to ye -newrfV avro
aviapov. ov)(i.;
T)
2ft. llavddvw Stallbaum Zfl. Kai eyJii

1
\(yu>. fj.av66.vw
:
MSS.
426
GORGIAS
the health of his eyes, and so at last is rid of both
things together ?
call. Far from it.
soc. Because, I imagine, this would be an astonish
ing and irrational result, would it not ?
call. Very much so.
soc. Whereas, I take it, he gets and loses either
in turn ?
call. I agree.
soc. And so with strength and weakness in just
the same way ?
call. Yes.
soc. And speed and slowness ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And so too with good things and happiness
and their opposites bad things and wretchedness
does one take on each of these in turn, and in turn
put it off ?
call. Absolutely, I presume.
soc. Then if we find any things that a man puts
and retains at one and the same moment, clearly
off"
these cannot be the good and the bad. Do we
admit this ? Now consider very carefully before
you answer.
call. Oh, I admit it down to the ground.
soc. So now for our former admissions : did you
say that being hungry was pleasant or painful ? I
mean, hunger itself.
call. Painful, I said ; though eating when one is
hungry I call pleasant.
soc. I see : but at all events hunger itself is
painful, is it not ?
427
PLATO
KAAA. Qh)fU.
Sa. Ovkovv /cat to Sitpfjv;
kaaa. S^dSpa ye.
2n. Tlorepov ovv en ir\eia> epwrw, -q dfioXoyels
dnaoav evSetav /cat emdvp,lav dviapov elvai;
KAAA. 'OfJ,oXoya>, dAAd p,r) epcora.
2fl. Etev oitficvvra 8e -ntvew aXXo tl
8r)
tjSi)
r)
<f>f]s
eivai;
kaaa. "Eya>ye.
2n. Ovkovv tovtov ov Xeyeis to fiev hupcbvra
XvTrovp.evov BrjTTOv ear iv
;
KAAA. Not.
E
2fl. To Se mveiv TrXfjpwms re rfjs evoelas kcu

yjoovrj;
KAAA. Nat.
2fl. 0j5kow Kara to mveiv ât'peiv Aeyet?;
kaaa. MdAtora.
2n. At^raWd ye;
KAAA. rj/x.t.
2fl. A.VTTOVjj,evov
;
KAAA. Nat.
2ft. Aladdvj) odv to avp,f$aivov, on Avnovfievov
Xa-lpeiv Aeyeis ap.a, orav Sufiu>vra iriveuv Xeyrjs; r)
oi% ayxa. tovto yiyverai kovto. rov avrov tottov

icat xpovov elre fox^S etre ad>p.aros fiovXei;
ovoev yap, of/xat, Sia<f)epei. eon ravra ov;
rj
KAAA. "Eotw.
2fl. 'AAAd p,r)v ev ye Trpdrrovra KaKats rrpdr-
reiv dp.a dSwaTov (ftfjs1 elvai.
Baiter mss.
1
07js ?</>?js
:
428
GORGIAS
call. I agree.
soc. And so too with thirst ?
call. Quite so.

soc. Then am I to ask you any further questions,
or do you admit that all want and desire is painful ?
call. I admit it ; no, do not question me further.
soc. Very good : but drinking when one is thirsty
you surely say is pleasant ?
CALL. I
do.
soc Now, in this phrase of yours the words
" when one is "
thirsty," I take it, stand for when
"
one is in pain ?
call. Yes.
soc. But drinking is a satisfaction of the want,
and a pleasure ?
call. Yes.
soc. So in the act of drinking, you say, one has
enjoyment ?
call. Quite so.
soc. When one is thirsty ?
call. I agree.
soc. That is, in pain ?
call. Yes.
soc. Then do you perceive the conclusion, that
you say one enjoys oneself, though in pain at the
same moment, when you say one drinks when one
is thirsty ? Or does this not occur at once, at the
same place and time in either soul or body, as
you please ? For I
fancy it makes no difference.
Is this so or not ?
call. It is.
soc. But further, you say it is impossible to be
badly off, or to fare ill, at the same time as one is
faring well.
429
PLATO
KAAA. OlJ/Xt yap.

497 sn. 'Avaofievov Se ye âipeiv Svvardv oo/ao-
XoyrjKas.
KAAA. OatVCTOl.
2n. 0i5at apa to âtpetv cffTW' 5 nparreiv
ov$e to aviaaOau kclkoos, axrre erepov yiyverai
to rod dyadov.
-q8v
I KAAA. Qvk olS' arret cro<f)lr), a) SaVpares.
2n. Otcr0a, dAAd KaAAtKAets'" Kal
aKKi^rj, to
irpoiQi ye en els to epvnpoaQev [on eôw Xr/peis],1
B iva elSfjs, cos oo<f>6s cov fie vovderels. ov% dp,a
(,ifju>v re e/caaro? rjp,div Tte-navrai Kal dfia rjSo-
p.evos 8td rov iriveiv;
KAAA. Qvk otSa o Tt Aeyety
ropr. MijSa/xais, cS KaAAt'/cAeis, dAA' cmoKpLvov
Kal qp.cHv eveKa, Iva Trepavda>aiv ol Xoyoi.
KAAA. 'AAA' del toiovtos ecrri HiCOKpdrqs, cS
Yopyia- afiiKpd Kal oXiyov d$ia dvepcora Kal
igeXeyxei.
ropr. 'AAAd n aol 8tatf>epei; navTcos ov arj
avrrj rj Tip,r\, Si
KaAAt/cAets" vnoaês dAA' Sa>-
Kpdrei iêXeyiai oircos dv ôvXrjrai.
av rd op.iKpd re Kal arevd
Sr/
C KAAA. 'Epcora
ravTa, enenrep Topytq SoKel ovrois.
2fl. EuSaiîtov el, w KaAAiVAet?, oti rd p.e-
ydXa piep,vrjaai rrplv rd a/xt/c/od- iyd) ovk u>pvqv
S'
depLirdv etvai. odev ovv direXmes, diroKpivov, el

ov% dfia Traverai Siificov eKaaros rjp,cov /cat r]86p.evos.
KAAA. Oljjltl.
8n lxav Xijpe& seel. Thompson.
1
Socrates means that one cannot hope to know great

1
things without first learning the truth about little things.

430
GORGIAS
call. Yes, I do.

soc. But to enjoy oneself when feeling pain you
have admitted to be possible.
call. Apparently.
soc. Hence enjoyment is not faring well, nor is
feeling pain faring ill, so that the pleasant is found
to be different from the good.
call. I cannot follow these subtleties of yours,
Socrates.
soc. You can, but you play the innocent, Callicles.
Just go on a little further, that you may realize
how subtle is your way of reproving me. Does not
each of us cease at the same moment from thirst
and from the pleasure he gets by drinking ?
call. I cannot tell what you mean.
gorg. No, no, Callicles, you must answer him, for
our sakes also, that the arguments may be brought
to a conclusion.
call. But Socrates is always like this, Gorgias ;
he keeps on asking petty, unimportant questions
until he refutes one.
gorg. Why, what does that matter to you ? In
any case it is not your credit that is at stake,
Callicles ; just permit Socrates to refute you in such
manner as he chooses.
call. Well then, proceed with those little cramped
questions of yours, since Gorgias is so minded.
soc. You are fortunate, Callicles, in having been
initiated into the Great Mysteries before the Little : 1
I did not think that was the proper thing. So go on
answering where you left off as to whether each
of us does not cease to feel thirst and pleasure at
the same time.
call. I grant it.
431
PLATO
3ft. OvKOVV Kal Kal

TTeiVCOV TCOV dAAcUV eitl-
Ovp-icov /cat r]8ovcov a/xa naveTai;
kaaa. "Eoti ravra.
3ft. Ovkow Kal tcov Avittov koX tcov -qhovtov
a/xa iraverai;
D KAAA. Nai.
2ft. 'AAAd fir/v tcov dyadcov Kal KaKcov ox>x
dfxa iraverai, lbs arv cbfioXoyeis' vvv 8e ovx o/io-

Xoyels;
KAAA. "Eyajy- rl ovv Srj;
3ft. "On ov ravra ylyverai, to <f>i\e, Ta.ya.6a
tols ijSeaxv ovok to. KaKa tols dviapoLS. tcov
/xev yap dfia naveTai, tcov 8e ov, cos krepcov ovrcov

ttcos ovv Tavra av ei-q to. ijSea tois dyadots rf to.
dviapd tols KaKots; eav oe fiovAr),
ttJS' Kal
i-tTio~K<pat.' ot/xai yap ctol oioe Tavrrj o/xoAoyei-
o8ai. dOpei 8e- tovs dyaOovs ouî dyaBcov -no.-
povaia dyadovs KaXels, cocrnep Toi>s KaAovs oU
dv koXAos Trapfj;
KAAA. "Eyatye.
2ft. Ti 8e; dyadovs dvSpas KaXels dtfipovas
Kal oeiXovs; ov yap dpri ye, dAAa tovs dvSpeiovs
Kal <j>povipMVS eAeyes' rj ov tovtovs dyadovs
KaXeis;
kaaa. Haw p.ev ovv.
2ft. Ti 8e; Traioa dvorpov â/poiTa tJotj etSes;
kaaa. "Eycuye.
2ft. "Avopa 8e ovttco eT8es dvorp-ov ](alpovra;
132
GORGIAS
soc. And so with hunger and the rest, does he

cease to feel the desires and pleasures at the same
time ?
call. That is so.
soc. And also ceases to feel the pains and pleasures
at the same time ?
call. Yes.
soc. But still he does not cease to have the good
and bad at the same time, as you agreed ; and now,
you do not agree ?
call. I do ; and what then ?
soc. Only that we get the result, my friend, that
the good things are not the same as the pleasant,
nor the bad as the painful. For with the one pair
the cessation is of both at once, but with the other
two it is not, since they are distinct. How then
can pleasant things be the same as good, or painful
things as bad ? Or if you like, consider it another
way for I fancy that even after that you do not
admit it. Just observe : do you not call good
people good owing to the presence of good things,
as you call beautiful those in whom beauty is
present ?
call. I do.
soc. Well now, do you give the name of good
men to fools and cowards ? It was not they just
now but brave and wise'Irten whom you so described.
Or is it not these that you call good ?
call. To be sure it
is.
soc. And now, have you ever seen a silly child
enj oying iteslf ?
call. Ihave.
soc. And have you never seen a silly man enjoying
himself ?
vol. v 2p 433
PLATO
KAAA. Ofyxat eyorye- dXXa tl tovto;

2fl. OuSeV aAA' anoKpivov.
kaaa. EfSov.
498 2n. Ti Se'; vow eyovTa Xvnovp.evov Kai xat'~
povra;
KAAA. OlJ/Xl.
SO. IToTepoi Se /naAAoi' âipouot Kai- XvnovvTai,
ol fipovi/xoi rj ol a<f>poves;
kaaa. Of/xat eycoye ov rroXv tl Sia<e'pew.
SO. 'AAA' dp/cei /cat touto. > iroXefia) Se rjSrj
eloes avSpa SetAoV;
KAAA. Ileus yap ov;
2n. Ti ovv; amovrcav rcbv TroXep,Lcov irorepoi
ool eSd/cow p.dXXov yaipeLV, ol SetAot r) ol avSpetoi;
B kaaa. 'Ap^drepot e/xotye- ei Se p.rj, irapa-
irXrjoicos ye.
sa. Qvoev Sia<êpei. âipouot S' ovv /cat ol
SetAot;
kaaa. 2<d8pa ye.
20. Kai ol a<j>poves, w? eot/cev.
kaaa. Nat.
SO.UpomovTWV Se ot SetAot p,6vov Xvirovvrai
rj /cat ot dVSpetot;
kaaa . 'Ap.<f>OTepo i .
20. TApa 6p,otws;
kaaa. MaAAoi' taw? ot SetAot.
SO. 'Amovrcov 8' oi5 pi&XXov âtpotiow;
kaaa. "law?.
SO. Ou/cow At/TroiWat jLtev /cat \aipovaL Kai
ol a<j>poves /cat ot <f>p6vip.oi /cat ot SetAot /cat ot
C aVSpetot irapaTrXrjoicos, (Its ov </>fis, piXXov Se
ot SetAot rwv avSpeicov;
434
GORGIAS
call. I should think I have ; but what has that

to do with it ?
soc. Nothing ; only answer.
call. Ihave seen one.
soc. And again, a man of sense in a state of pain
or enjoyment ?
call. Yes.
soc. And which sort are more apt to feel enjoy
ment or pain, the wise or the foolish ?
call. I should think there is not much difference.
soc. Well, that will suffice. In war have you ever
seen a coward ?
call. Of course I have.
soc. Well now, when the enemy withdrew, which
seemed to you to enjoy it more, the cowards or the
brave ?
call. Both did, I thought ; or if not that, about
equally.
soc. No matter. Anyhow, the cowards do enjoy it ?
call. Very much.

soc. And the fools, it would seem.
call. Yes.
soc. And when the foe advances, do the cowards
alone feel pain, or the brave as well ?
call. Both.
soc. Alike ?
call. More, perhaps, the cowards.
soc. And when the foe withdraws, do they not
enjoy it more ?
call. Perhaps.
soc. So the foolish and the wise, and the cowardly
and the brave, feel pain and enjoyment about
equally, according to you, but the cowardly more
than the brave ?
435
PLATO
KAAA. ^>rj[d.
'AAAa pvfp> ot ye <f>povi,p,oi Kal ol
2n. avSpeZoi
ayadoi, ol Se SetAot /cat acf>poves /ca/cot;
KAAA. Nat.
Sn. IIapa7TATjCTia)j apa âioouat Kal Xvirovvrai
ol ayadoi koX ol kokoI;
KAAA. Oij/ai.
in. TAp' ovv TTapaTrXrjoLcos elalv ayadoi koX
KaKol ol ayadoi re Kal ol KaKoc; rj /cat en p.dXXov
ayadoi [ol ayaOot,]1 Kal KaKOi eicnv ol KaKot.;
D KAAA. 'AAAa, p,a At" ovk otS' o ri Ae'yei?.
2n. Ovk otad' on tovs dyadovs ayadibv cj>fjs
Ttapovalq etvai dyadovs, KaKOVS Se KaKUtv ; to.
e ay ax) a etvat ras rjbovas, KaKa be ras avias ;
kaaa. "Eywye.
2n. Ovkovv rots xa^PovaL vapean rayada, at
r/Sovai, eirrep \alpovaiv ;
KAAA. II w? yap ov;
2n. OOkow ayadcbv -napovraw ayadoi etatv ot
Xalpovres;
KAAA. Nat.
2n. Tt Se; rots aviwp.evois ov irapeori. ra KaKa,
al Xvnai;
KAAA. YldpeOTW.
E sn. Ka/caiv Se ye napovala <pfjs ai) etvat ko.kovs
tovs KaKovs. rj ovKert <j>j)s;
kaaa. "Eyaiye.
2fl. 'Ayaflot apa ot av xalpcom, fca/cot Se ot av
dviuivr ai;
1
oi ayaBol seel. Routh.
436
GORGIAS
call. I agree.
soc. But further, are the wise and brave good,
and the cowards and fools bad ?
call. Yes.
soc. Then the good and the bad feel enjoyment
and pain about equally ?
call. I agree.
soc. Then are the good and the bad about equally
good and bad ? Or are the bad in some yet greater
measure good and bad ?
call. Why, upon my word, I cannot tell what you
mean.
soc. You are aware, are you not, that you hold
that the good are good by the presence of good
things, and that the bad are so by the presence of
bad things ? And that the pleasures are the good
things, and the pains bad things ?
call. Yes, I am.
soc. Hence in those who have enjoyment the
good things the pleasures are present, so long
as they enjoy ?
call. Of course.
soc. Then, good things being present, those who
enjoy are good ?
call. Yes.
soc. Well now, in those who feel pain are not bad
things present, namely pains ?
call. They are.

soc. And it is by the presence of bad things, you
say, that the bad are bad ? Or do you no longer say
so ?
call. I do say so.
soc. Then whoever enjoys is good, and whoever is
pained, bad ?
437
PLATO
KAAA. Ylavv ye.
2n. Ot p,ev ye p.SXXov p,aXXov, ot S' fjrrov
tfrrov, ot oe TrapairXrjcricDS TTapaTrXrjaioJS ;
KAAA. Nat.
Sn. Ovkovv <f>r/s napaTrA-qalios Xa^Pelv Ka'- ^v~
neiaQairovs <j>povip,ovs Kal rovs d<f>povas Kal rovs
SeiXovs /cat rovs dvSpelovs, rj Kal p,dXXov eVt rovs
oeiXovs;
KAAA. "Eya>ye.
ip,ov, ri rjfjuv
Brj
2n. SuAAdytaat Kowfj p,er'
ovp,âlvei e/c ru>v
(Lp,oXoyy]p,eva)v Kal Sis yap rot
/cat Tpis (fiaai kolAov etvat, ret /caAd Xeyew re Kal
499 emaKOTTelodau. ayaddv p.ev etvat rov <f>povip,ov
Kal dvopetov <j>ap.ev. yap;
r)
KAAA. Nat.
2n. Ka/cw Se rov d<f>pova Kal SetAoV;
kaaa. Udvv ye.
2n. 'Ayadov oe av rov %alpovra;
KAAA. Nat.
5n. Ka/cw 8e rov dvuop,evov;
KAAA. 'AvdyKrj.
2n. 'Avtacrât Se /cat ât/Dew tot dyaflw /cat
/ca/cw 6p,olcos, taws oe Kal /x.aAAov rov /ca/cw;
KAAA. Nat.
2n. 0i5/cow 6p,oiu)s ytyverat /ca/cd? /cat dya#ck
t<3 dyaflcp Kal p.aXXov dyaOos ov
B
/ca/cd?
6
rj
ravra ovp,fiaivei /cat ra nporepa e/cetva, edv tis

Tavrd <^>ij i^Sea re /cat dyadd elvac; ov ravra
KaAAt'/cAet?;
c5
dvdyKTf],
kaaa. IldAat roi aov d/cpoai/iat,
c5
HcoKpares,
The saying -/cai Sis yb.p /ca\6p eo"riy i>LGireiv was
1
e?
5
attributed by some to Empedocles.

438
GORGIAS
call. Certainly.
soc. You mean, those more so who feel these
things more, and those less who feel less, and those
about equally who feel about equally ?
call. Yes.
soc. Now you say that the wise and the foolish,
the cowardly and the brave, feel enjoyment and
pain about equally, or the cowards even more ?
call. I do.
soc. Then just help me to reckon up the results
we get from our admissions ; for you know they
say :
That which seemeth well, 'tis well

Twice and also thrice to tell,1
and to examine too. We say that the wise and

brave man is good, do we not ?
call. Yes.
soc. And that the foolish and cowardly is bad ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And again, that he who enjoys is good ?
call. Yes.
soc. And that he who feels pain is bad ?
call. Necessarily.
soc. And that the good and the bad feel enjoy
ment and pain in a like manner, or perhaps the bad
rather more ?
call. Yes.
soc. Then is the bad man made bad or good in a
like manner to the good man, or even good in a
greater measure ? Does not this follow, along with
those former statements, from the assumption that
pleasant things and good things are the same ?
Must not this be so, Callicles ?
call. Let me tell you, Socrates, all the time that
439
PLATO
KadofjioAoyaJv, evdvp.ovp.evos ori, kSv irai^cov ris

aoi evSw oriovv, rovrov dap,evos exjj coarrep to.
av olei ifie kou dXXov ovrivovv
St)
uetpa/aa. cos
rj
dvOpwrrcov ovx rjyeiadai rds "ev fieXriovs r)8ovas,
rds Se xeipov?.
2n. 'Io tov, a> KaAAi'/cAet?, cos iravovpyos et,
fai uot cooirep iraiSl xpf}> fork p,ev ra aura. <f>do~Kcov
C
ovrcos <=Xelv> TOT^ Se erepcos, eârrarcov fie. kclItoi

ovk a>p,rjv ye /car' dpxds vtto aov eKovros elvai
eâTrarrjdrjaeaOai, cbs ovros <f>iXov vvv Se eifiev-
odrjv, /cat cos eoiKev dvdyKr) p,oi Kara rov TraXaiov
Xoyov to rrapov ev rroieiv /cat rovro Sexeadai ro
8iS6p,evov rrapd aov. eon Se Srj, cos eoitcev, o vvv
Xeyeis, on rjSovat rives eloiv at fiev dyadai, at Se
KOLKaL- ydp;
rj
kaaa. Nat.
2fl. vAp' oSv dyaual fiev at (h<f>iXip*oi, kglkclI
D
Se at /JAa/Jepat;
kaaa. Haw ye.
2n. 'Q.(j>eXip,oi Se ye at dyadov n rroiovaai,
/fa/cat Se at xatcov n;
kaaa. Oijyxt.
2n. *Ap' ouv ra? rotacrSe Aeyei?, otov Kara, to
w
817
otop,a a? eXeyop.ev ev rep eodieiv /cat rrlveiv

rjSovds; dpa rovrcov at uei> vyieiav iroiovaai.
ij1
ev rut acop,an, laxvv dXXrjv rivd dperrjv rov

rj
rj
acop.aros, aSrai uev dyaJdai, at Se ravavTia rovrcov

KaKai
;
kaaa. Ilcutr ye.

Sauppe mss.
el
1
440
GORGIAS
I have been to you and yielding you

listening
agreement, I have been remarking the puerile
delight with which you cling to any concession one
may make to you, even in jest. So you suppose that
I or anybody else in the world does not regard some
pleasures as better, and others worse !
soc. Oh ho, Callicles, what a rascal you are,
treating me thus like a child now asserting that
the same things are one way, now another, to
deceive me ! And yet I started with the notion
that I should not have to fear any intentional
deception on your part, you being my friend ; but
now I find I was mistaken, and it seems I must, as the
old saying goes, e'en make the best of what I have
got,1 and accept just anything you offer. Well then,
what you now state, it seems, is that there are certain
pleasures, some good, and some bad ; is not that so ?
call. Yes.
soc. Then are the beneficial ones good, and the
harmful ones bad ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And are those beneficial which do some good,
and those evil which do some evil ?
call. Iagree.
soc. Now are the sort you mean for
these
instance, in the body, the pleasures of eating and
drinking that we mentioned a moment ago ? Then
the pleasures of this sort which produce health in
the body, or strength, or any other bodily excellence,
are these good, and those which have the opposite
effects, bad ?
call. Certainly.
1
The proverb usually has rWeaBai instead of iroieiv ; cf.
Lucian, Necyom. 21.
441
PLATO
E 2n. Ovkovv /ecu AiVcu cbaavrcos al p.ev ^pTjtrrai

elow, al oe irovrjpai;
kaaa. Hois' yap ov;
2n. Ovkovv ras p-ev xp7]"r^s Kai ijStwas Kal
Xvirag koX aipereov earl Kal TtpaKreov;
kaaa. Udvv ye.
2fl. las 8e irovrjpas ov;
kaaa. AfjXov Srj.
2n. Eve/<ra yap ttov tcov dyaQcov dnavra rfpuv
e8oe irpaKreov elvai, el p,vqp,oveveis , epx>i re Kal
UcoXco. apa Kal aol owSoKet ovrco, TeXos elvai
airaocov tcov tipdêcov to ayadov, Kal eKelvov
eveKev heiv irdvTa raXXa irpdrTeadai, dXX' ovk
500 eKeivo tcov aXXcov; avptfirjcôs rjp.lv el Kal <rv ck
rpiTcov;
kaaa. "Eycoye.
5n. Taw dyadcov apa eVe/ca Sei /ecu rdAAa Kal
ra rjoea TTparreiv, aAA ov rayaua row ijoecov.
kaaa. Udvv ye.
sn. TAjo' ovv iravros dvopos eariv e/cAe'aer0ai,
TTOia dyadd tcov rjSecov earl Kal oirdia /ca/ca, rj
rexyiKOV Set els eKaoTOv;
kaaa . TexyiKov .
'
2n. Avap,vrja6a>p.ev cov av eycb irpos YlaiXov
8r)
"+**
Kal Yopyiav ervyâvov Xeycov. eXeyov yap,

el
pvrjpoveveis on elev -napaoKeval al p.ev p.expi

B
rjSovfjs, avTO tovto povov TrapaoKevdôvoai, dyvoov-

oai Se to fieXriov Kal to êlpov, al he yiyvco-
(jKovaai rt T ayadov Kai o ti KaKov Kal eTidrjv
6
tcov [lev rrepl ras r/Sovas rr)v fiayeipiKr/v ep/rreiplav

,
dXX' ov Texyrjv, tcov Se Trepl to ayadov ttjv laTpiKriv
442
GORGIAS
soc. And similarly in the case of pains, are some

worthy and some base ?
call. Of course.
soc. So it is the worthy pleasures and pains that
we ought to choose in all our doings ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And the base ones not ?
call. Clearly so.
soc. Because, you know, Polus and I, if you
recollect, decided that everything we do should be
1
for the sake of what is good. Do you agree with

us in this view that the good is the end of all our
actions, and it is for its sake that all other things
should be done, and not it for theirs ? Do you add
your vote to ours, and make a third ?
CALL. I do.
soc. Then it is for the sake of what is good that
we should do everything, including what is pleasant,
not the good for the sake of the pleasant.
call. Certainly.
soc. Now is it in every man's power to pick out
which sort of pleasant things are good and which
bad, or is professional skill required in each case ?
call. Professional skill.
soc. Then let us recall those former points I was
putting to Polus and Gorgias.2 I said, if you
remember, that there were certain industries, some
of which extend only to pleasure, procuring that
and no more, and ignorant of better and worse ;
while others know what is good and what bad. And
I placed among those that 'are concerned with
pleasure the habitude, not art, of cookery, and
among those concerned with good the art of medicine.
2 464,-5.
Cf. 468 c.
1
Cf.
443
PLATO
rexyrjv. /cat irpos OtAuw, co KaAAi/cAet?, /*1JT
CIVTOS otoV Selv TipOS /! TTOcCfilV /XT)8' O Tl OH
TVXfls apa ra. So/cowra doKpivov, firjr av to

ira/>' epjov airoSexov cos 7ratoiTOs- opas
ovrcos
C yap or* Trept tovtov elolv r/fiZv oi Xoyot, ov Tt eu'
fiaXXov cnrovhaoeU ris kcu. opuKpov vow erj^cov
avdpanros, 7} tovto, ovriva xp^l rpoirov t,ijv, irorepov
ert\ ov ov irapaicaXeZs *[**> ra. tov avhpos
oi]
ravra Trparrovra, Xeyovrd re ev rep o^jftai /cat
prrjTopiKrjv aoKowra /cat noXirevopêvov tovtov
tov rporrov, ov vp.eZs vvv TroXireveoOe, [c-xrt]1
t]
rovSe tov jiLov tov ev (piXoaotpla, /cat tl ttot eorlv
ovros eKeivov Biacpepcov. locos ovv fieXTtorov
D eoTtv, cos apri eycb SuupeZoBai,
e.Tre\elp7]oa,
el
SieXofievovs Be /cat opLoXoy-qoavras aAAijAots,
eOTl TOVTCO SlTTCO TO) filci), OKtfiaodcU, Tt T Sta-
cpeperov aXXrjXoiv /cat orrorepov fiuirreov avroZv.
tocos ovv ovrrco 0106a ti Aeyco.
KAAA. Ou Sijra.
2x1. 'AAA' eycboatpeorepov epcb.
001 eiretSr]
cbpvoXoyrjKapLev eycb re kclI oil elvai fiev Tt ayaBov,
eivai be ti tjou, erepov be to rjbv tov ayatfov,
eKorepov he avrotv ueXerrjv tlvo. tvat /cat irapa-
OKevTjv rrjs Krqoecos, rrjv p.ev rod r/Beos drjpav,
rrjv 8e rod ayadov auro be pu>i rovro irpatrov
77
ovucpadi p.rj- ovpxpjis;

E
rj
KAAA. Ovrco <frqp.l.

2n. "Ifil arj, a /cat Trpos Tovabe eycb eXeyov,
rare
el
biop.oX6yT]aal p.01, apa 001 eboa dXrjOrj
i-ri seel. Findeisen.

1
444
GORGIAS
Now by the sanctity of friendship, Callicles, do not

on your part indulge in jesting with me, or give me
random answers against your conviction, or again,
take what I say as though I were jesting. For you
see that our debate is upon a question which has
the highest conceivable claims to the serious interest
even of a person who has but little intelligence
namely, what course of life is best ; whether it
should be that to which you invite me, with all those
manly pursuits of speaking in Assembly and practis
ing rhetoric and going in for politics after the fashion
of you modern politicians, or this life of philosophy ;
and what makes the difference between these two.
Well, perhaps it is best to do what I attempted a
while ago, and distinguish them ; and then, when
we have distinguished them and come to an agree
ment with each other as to these lives being really
two, we must consider what is the difference between
them and which of them is the one we ought to live.
Now I daresay you do not yet grasp my meaning.
call. No, I do not.
soc. Well, I will put it to you more plainly.
Seeing that we have agreed, you and I, that there is
"
such a thing as good," and such a thing as
"
pleasant," and that the pleasant is other than the
good, and that for the acquisition of either there is
a certain practice or preparation the quest of the
pleasant in the one case, and that of the good in the
other but first you must either assent or object
to this statement of mine : do you assent ?
call. I am with you entirely.
soc. Then try and come to a definite agreement
with me on what Iwas saying to our friends here,
and see if you now find that what I then said was
445
PLATO
Xeyew. eXeyov Se ttov, on r) p.kv difionoiiKr) ov

501 p.01 So/cet reyyr] elvai dXX' ep-rreipia, r) 8' larpiKrj,
Xeywv oti 7]
rovrov ov depanevei /cat rr\v
p.ev
<f>vo~iv
eoKerrrai /cat rr)v alriav <Lv rtpdrrei, Kai
Xoyoy e\ei rovraxv eKaarov Sowat, r) larpiKrf rj
8 erepa rrjs rjSovrjs, npos rjv r) Bepa/neia avrj}
eorlv Strraoa, Kop,i8fj drexvats err' avrr)v epxerai,
ovre ri rr)v (f>vo~iv axei/iapem) rrjs rjSovrjs ovre rrjv
airiav, aXoycos re Travrdnaoiv , <I)S erros eirreiv,
ovSev 8iapi0p.rjoap.evrj, rpififj Kai ep.Trei.pia p.vrjpvfjv
p,6vov atp'Cflp.evrj rov elcoOoros yiyveadai, a> 8t) /cat
. B rropiêrai tcls r)8ovds. t-ravr' ovv rrpwrov aKorrei
ei So/cet aoi iKavuis XeyeaOai, Kai elvai rives Kai
Trepl i/iv)(t)v roiavrai aAAat npayp.arrelai, at piev
rexyiKai, Trpop.rjdeidv riva exovaai rov fieXriorov
rrepi rr)v iftvxrjv, al 8e rovrov p.ev SXiycopovaai,
eoKep,p.evai 8' av, woirep e/cei, rr)v r)8ovr)v fj,6vov
rrjs ifivxrjs, riva av avrfj rponov yiyvoiro, rjris
Se fieXriuiv r) xetpaw rwv r)8ovdJv, ovre ctko-
i)
rrovp.evai ovre p,eXov avrals dXXo r) xapt'ecr#ai
C p.6vov, eire fieXriov elre x^P0V- ep,ol p.ev yap, <3
KaAAt/cAets, 8okovoi re elvai, Kai eyatye <f>r)p.i to
roiovrov KoXaKeiav elvai Kai rrepi acop.a /cat rrepi
ipvxr/v Kai Trepl dXXo orov av ns rr)v r)8ovr)v
deparrevrj, doKerrrios e\(ov rov ap.eivovos re
Kai rov xeipovos' ov Be rrorepov ovyKOvra-
St)
rideoai rjp.iv rrepi rovrwv rrjv avrrjv 86av

rj
dvri<f>rjs;
kaaa. Ovk eycoye, dXXd ovyxo>pw, tva crot /cat
rrepavdrj Xoyos /cat Topyiq, ra>8e xaplaa>p.ai.
6
446
GORGIAS
true. I was saying, I think, that cookery seems to
me not an art but a habitude, unlike medicine, which,
I argued, has investigated the nature of the person
whom she treats and the cause of her proceedings,
and has some account to give of each of these
things ; so much for medicine : whereas the other, in
respect of the pleasure to which her whole ministration
is given, goes to work there in an utterly inartistic
manner, without having investigated at all either
the nature or the cause of pleasure, and altogether
irrationally with no thought, one may say, of
differentiation, relying on routine and habitude
for merely preserving a memory of what is wont to
result ; and that is how she is enabled to provide her
pleasures. Now consider first whether you think
that this account is satisfactory, and that there
are certain other such occupations likewise, having
to do with the soul ; some artistic, with forethought
for what is to the soul's best advantage, and others
making light of this, but again, as in the former
case, considering merely the soul's pleasure and
how it may be contrived for her, neither inquiring
which of the pleasures is a better or a worse one,
nor caring for aught but mere gratification, whether
for better or worse. For I, Callicles, hold that there
are such, and for my part I call this sort of thing
flattery, whether in relation to the body or to the
soul or to anything else, whenever anyone ministers
to its pleasure without regard for the better and the
worse ; and you now, do you support us with the
same opinion on this matter, or do you gainsay us ?
call. Not I ; I agree with you, in order that your
argument may reach a conclusion, and that I may
gratify Gorgias here.
447
PLATO
D 2fl. florepov filav ijivxyv eon tovto,

8e rrepi p.ev
rrepl Se Bvo kcu rroXXas ovk eoriv;
KAAA. Ovk, dAAd /cat Trepl 8vo /cat rrepl rroXXas.
2n. Ovkovv kclI aOpoais afia xapt'eo-#ai ecrri,
firjSev OKorrovpevov to êXriarov ;
KAAA. Otp,ai eywye.
2fl. "Eêi? o?v elrrelv, curates elaiv at errirr\-
Sedaet? at tovto rroiovoai; pdXXov Se, ei /JouAet,
e/xou epcorcjvTOS, rj p.ev av aoi 8okjj tovtcov etvai,
<f>ddi, rj 8' av p.r], p.r) <f>ddi. rrpcoTov Se o-Keifjco-
peOa tt)v avXrjTLKTJv. ov 8oKel ooi ToiavT-q ris
E etvai, ai KaAAt'/cAety, t^v ijSoi'î' r)p,cbv piovov
8iu>Keiv, aXXo 8' ovhev <f>povri,eiv ;
KAAA. E/iOtye SoKei.
2n. Oukow /eat at roiaiSe arraoai, olov r)
KiOapioTiKr) rj ev tois dycboiv ;
KAAA. Nat.
sn. Tt Se rj tcov yopwv 8i8ao~KaXia kcu r) twv
8i6vpdp,fiujv rroirjois; ov Totadrrj ris aoi Kara-
<f>aiveTai; rj r)yfj ti <f>povneiv Kivqaiav tov
MeXr/Tos, ottws ipel n toiovtov, odev av ol olkovov-
502 Tes fieXriovs yiyvowTO, rj o ti /xe'AAet -xapieiadai.
tco oÂat tow OeaTtbv;
tovto ye, TiWKpares, Kivtj-
8rj
kaaa. ArjXov
cS
aiov ye rrepi.
2n. Tt Se TTarrjp avTov MeXrjs; rrpos to

6
r)
jScAtkttov fiXerratv eSd/cei aoi Kidapa>8eiv;

r)
eKeivos p.ev ov8e rrpos to rj8iarov rjvia yap a8cuv

tovs Beards' dAAd re Kidapcp-
817
ovcoVer ovî
rj
A dithyrambic poet whose extravagant style was

1
ridiculed by Aristophanes (Frogs, 153 Clouds, 333

;
Birds, 1379).
448
GORGIAS
soc. And is this the case with only one soul, and
not with two or many ?
call. No, it is also the case with two or many.
soc. Then is it possible also to gratify them all at
once, collectively, with no consideration of what
is best ?
call. I should think it is.
soc. Then can you say what are the pursuits
which effect this ? Or rather, if you like, when I
ask you, and one of them seems to you to be of this
class, say yes, and when one does not, say no. And
first let us consider flute-playing. Does it not seem
to you one of this sort, Callicles, aiming only at
our pleasure, and caring for naught else ?
call. It does seem so to me.
soc. And so too with all similar pursuits, such as
harp-playing in the contests ?
call. Yes.
soc. And what of choral productions and dithy-
rambic compositions ? Are they not manifestly, in
your view, of the same kind ? Or do you suppose
Cinesias,1 son of Meles, cares a jot about trying to
say things of a sort that might be improving to his
audience, or only what is likely to gratify the crowd
of spectators ?
call. Clearly the latter is the case, Socrates, with
Oinesias.
soc. And what of his father Meles ? Did he
ever strike you as looking to what was best in his
minstrelsy ? Or did he, perhaps, not even make the
pleasantest his aim ? For his singing used to be a
pain to the audience. But consider now : do you
vol. v 2o 449
PLATO
81/07 So/tei ooi iraaa Kal r) tu>v 8i6vpdp,ficov Trolrjcns

rjSovfjs X"*Pa' ffipr\aOai;
kaaa. "E/ioiye.
Ti avrq Kal Oavfiaarrj,
817
j} Sn. 8e aep,vr)
rj
r)
e<f>
rfjs TpayuiSias rroirjais earrov8aKe; Trorepov
q>
eariv avrijs to em)(eipr)fia Kal airovorj, cos aol
r)
8okl, \api,l,eadai. toIs dearais p,6vov, Kal
rj
8iafJLa.xcr8ai, edv ti avrois rj8v p.ev Kai *ce^;a-
rj
piap,VOV, TTOVTjpOV 8e, OTTCOS TOVTO p.V p/Tj epl,
Kal u><j>eXip,ov, tovto
Tvyx&vei
el
8e Tt a-qoes
8e Kal Xeei /cat aaerai, edv re yaipcoaiv edv tc
firj; TTOTepws 001 80/cet rrapeaKevdaOai tcov
r)
rpaycphiiov noirjois;
KAAA. ArjXov tovto ye, to "LcoKpaTes, ori
817
rrpos ttjv r)8ovrjv p,aXXov wpp.rjTai Kal to xapLZ,eo~dai

C
tols OeaTais.
2n. Ovkovv to toiovtov, (o KaXXiKXeis, e<f>afi.ev
vvv KoXaKelav elvai;
8r)
kaaa. Hdvv ye.

2X1. Oepe Stj, et ti?rroLrjaecjs
rrepieXoi. i~fjs
irdarjs to Te jieXos Kal tov pvdfiov Kal to peTpov,
dXXo tl Xoyoi yiyvovrai to Xenrop.evov
;
r)
KAAA. 'AvdyKTj.
2fi. Ovkovv rrpos ttoXw o^Xov Kal Srjpov OVTOl
Xeyovrat ol Xoyoi;
kaaa. QhjjjU.
2n. Arjp,rjyopla dpa Tt? ecmv rtovqriKrj.
rj
kaaa. OaiVerat.
D
2fl. Ovkovv prjTopucfj 8r/p.rjyopla aV e'rjov

rj
pr/Topeveiv 8oKoval trot ot TroirjTat. ev toZs dedrpois;

kaaa. "E/t.otye.
20. Nuv dpa r)p.eis rjvp-qKafjLev prjTopiKTjv Tiva
450
GORGIAS
not think that all minstrelsy and composing of

dithyrambs have been invented for the sake of
pleasure ?
call. I do.
soc. Then what of the purpose that has inspired
our stately and wonderful tragic poetry ? Are her
endeavour and purpose, to your mind, merely for
the gratification of the spectators, or does she strive
hard, if there be anything pleasant and gratifying,
but bad for them, to leave that unsaid, and if there
be anything unpleasant, but beneficial, both to
speak and sing that, whether they enjoy it or not ?
To which of these two aims, think you, is tragic
poetry devoted ?
call. It is quite obvious, in her case, Socrates,
that she is bent rather upon pleasure and the grati
fication of the spectators.
soc. Well now, that kind of thing, Callicles, did
we say just now, is flattery ?
call. Certainly.
soc. Pray then, if we strip any kind of poetry of
its melody, its rhythm and its metre, we get mere
speeches as the residue, do we not ?
call. That must be so.
soc. And those speeches are spoken to a great
crowd of people ?
call. Yes.
soc. Hence poetry is a kind of public speaking.
call. Apparently.
soc. Then it must be a rhetorical public speak
ing ; or do you not think that the poets use rhetoric
in the theatres ?
call. Yes, I
do.
soc. So now we have found a kind of rhetoric
451
PLATO
npos 8fjp.ov toiovtov olov nai8u>v re ofiov Kal

ywaiKwv Kal avSpcov, kcu SovXojv kcu eXevOepiov,
rfv ov rravv ayap.eda- KoXaKiKrjv yap avrrjv <f>apiev
elvai.
kaaa. Udvv ye.
sn. Etev rl 8e rj irpos tov 'AOrjvalwv 8rjfju>v
E prjTOpiKrj Kal tovs aXXovs tovs ev tois rroXeot
8rjp.ovs tovs tu>v eXevBepatv dv8pwv, ri rrore
qplv aim) eari; noTepov ooi Sokovoi Trpos to
jSeAtiotov del Xeyeiv ol pr/ropes, tovtov oro\ai,6-
p.evoi, ottojs ol TToXlrai <Ls êXriorot eoovrai
Sta tovs avTaJv Xoyovs, r) Kal ovroi npos to %a-
plêodai toZs rroXiTais (vpp.rjp.evoi, Kal eveKa tov
18iov tov avTtov dXiyojpovvres tov koivov, atorrep
rraiol rrpooop-iXovoi tois 8rfp.ois, âpiêcrflai avrdis
Treipa>p,evoi p.6vov, el 8e ye fieXrlovs eoovrai r)
Xelpovs old TavTa, ov8ev (f>povTiôvoiv ;
503 kaaa. Oux drrXovv erri tovto eparras' elol piev
yap ot Kr]oop,evoi T(hv ttoXitcov Xeyovoiv a Xe
yovoiv, elol 8e Kal oiovs ov Xeyeis.
2n. 'EâpKet. el yap Kal tovto eori SnrXovv,
to p.ev eTepov ttov tovtov /coAa/cei'a av etrj Kal
alo%pd 8r]p.rjyopia, to 8' eTepov koXov, to rrapa-
OKevdêiv orrats d)S fieXTiorai eoovrai tujv ttoXi-
tow ai ijwxai, Kal 8iap.a\eodai Xeyovra rd ySe'A-
Tiora, e"ne r)8iat etre drj8eoTepa eorai tois
B aKovovaiv. dXX ov rroynoTe ov ravnjv et8es
rrjv prjTopiKrjV 77
el riva eyeis tG)v prjTopcov
toiovtov elrreiv, ti oujfi /cat ep.01 avrov e<f>paoas
tis eoriv;
kaaa. 'AAAa. p.d A" ovk excn eyutye 001 elireiv j
twv ye vvv prjTopoiij ovSeva.

452 sfJ**-*s
GORGIAS
addressed to such a public as is compounded of

children and women and men, and slaves as well as
free ; an art that we do not quite approve of, since
we call it a flattering one.
call. To be sure.
soc. Very well ; but now, the rhetoric addressed
to the Athenian people, or to the other assemblies
of freemen in the various cities what can we make
of that ? Do the orators strike you as speaking
always with a view to what is best, with the single
aim of making the citizens as good as possible by
their speeches, or are they, like the poets, set on
gratifying the citizens, and do they, sacrificing the
common weal to their own personal interest, behave
to these assemblies as to children, trying merely
to gratify them, nor care a jot whether they will be
better or worse in consequence ?
call. This question of yours is not quite so simple ;
for there are some who have a regard for the citizens
in the words that they utter, while there are also
others of the sort that you mention.
soc. That is enough for me. For if this thing also
is twofold, one part of it, I presume, will be flattery
and a base mob-oratory, while the other is noble
the endeavour, that is, to make the citizens' souls
as good as possible, and the persistent effort to say
what is best, whether it prove more or less pleasant
to one's hearers. But this is a rhetoric you never
yet saw ; or if you have any orator of this kind that
you can mention, without more ado let me know
who he is !
call. No, upon my word, I cannot tell you of any
one, at least among the orators of to-day.
453
PLATO
Ti' oe; riov rraXaiiov eêts

2fl. Ttva. eirrelv, St
ovrtva alrlav ej(ovaiv 'Adr/vatot jSeAn'ou? ye-
yorevat, erreLoi) eKelvos rjptjaTO or)pvqyopelv, ev
ru> rrpoadev XPVV Xe^P0VS ovres; eydj p.kv yap
ovk otSa Tt'y iariv ovtos.
C KAAA. Ti oe; Qep,ioTOK.Xea oi5/c d/couet? dvSpa
dyadov yeyovora /cat Kt/x.a>va *cat MiAticiStji'
/cat IlepiKAea toittovi tot vewori TeTeXevrr\KcWa,
ov kcu. ov oiK^Koas;
2n. Ei cart ye, & KaAAi'/cAety, 77V rrpoTepov
ov eXeyes dpeTrjv, dXrjdrjs, to tols emdvpiLas
drromp.rrXdvai. /cat rds aijroC kcu ray TtSv aAAa>f
ei oe ju.17 tovto, dXX' oVep eV to) vorepa) X6ya>
qva.yKdodrjp.ev 6p,oXoyelv, art at /êv tow
r)p,ets
p D im8vp,icov rrXrjpovfj,evai j3eAria> rroiovcn tov dv-

dpairrov, tolvtois p.ev drroTeXelv, at 8e \eipo),
pvr\, tovto 8e Teyyt] ti? elrj- toiovtov dvopa tovtojv
TLvd yeyovevai ovk e\oi eyorye nu>s elrrco.
kaaa. 'AAA' edv ^rjTrjs KaXdis, evprjoeis.
2ft. "Ioojp,ev or) ovtcdoI drrpep.a oKOirovp,evoi,
ei tis tovtojv toiovtos yeyovev. (f>epe ydp, 6
ayauos avrjp kol em to peATioTOV Aeycov, a. av
Xeyrj, dXXo ti ovk et/cij epel, dXX drro/iXeTrcov
E rrpos Tt; worrep Kal ol dXXoi rrdvTes orjp.tovpyol
fiXerrovTes rrpos to avTwv epyov eKaoros ovk
eiKfj eKXeyop.evos rrpoo(j>epei a. Trpoa<j>epei irpos
to epyov to avTov, dXX' orrais av eioos ti aura)
aXV tovto o epyaêTat. olov et fiovXei ISeiv
tovs a>ypd<f>ovs, tovs oiKooop.ovs, tovs vavrrrj-
yovs, tovs dXXovs rrdvTas 8rjp.iovpyovs, ovriva
1
429 b.c. We saw at 473 e that the supposed date of the
discussion is 405 b.c, so that "recently "here is hardly accurate.
454
GORGIAS
soc. Well then, can you mention one among those

of older times whom the Athenians have to thank
for any betterment that started at the time of his
first harangues, as a change from the worse state
in which he originally found them ? For my part,
I have no idea who the man is.
call. Why, do you hear no mention of Themi-
stocles and what a good man he was, and Cimon and
Miltiades and the great Pericles, who has died
recently,1 and whom you have listened to yourself ?
soc. Yes, Callicles, if that which you spoke of
just now is true virtue the satisfaction of one's own
and other men's desires ; but if that is not so, and
the truth is as we were compelled to admit in the
subsequent discussion that only those desires which
make man better by their satisfaction should be ful
filled, but those which make him worse should not,
and that this is a special art, then I for one cannot
tell you of any man so skilled having appeared among
them.
call. Ah, but if you search properly you will find
one.
soc. Then let us just consider the matter calmly,
and see if any of them has appeared with that skill.
Come now : the good man, who is intent on the best
when he speaks, will surely not speak at random
in whatever he says, but with a view to some object ?
He is just like any other craftsman, who having his
own particular work in view selects the things he
applies to that work of his, not at random, but with
the purpose of giving a certain form to whatever
he is working upon. You have only to look, for
example, at the painters, the builders, the ship
wrights, or any of the other craftsmen, whichever
455
PLATO
fiovXei avrcbv, cbs els rdijw Twa eKaaros eKaarov

Tidrjaw 8 av TiOfj, /cat npoaavayKaêi to erepov
tu> eTepcp npenov re ewai /cat apfiorreiv, ews
504 av to dirav avaT~qarjTat Terayp,evov re /cat /ce/co-
ap.rjp.evov irpayp,a' /cat ol re dXXoi Srjp,i.ovpyol
8r)
ol irepl to
8r)
/cat ovs vvv eXeyop,ev, au>p.a, 77atSo-
Tplfiai re /cat larpoi, Koap-ovai ttov to aujp.a
ko\ ovvTovrTovoiv . 6p.oXoyovp.ev ovtu) tout' exiv
ov;
rj
KAAA. "EoTW TOVTO OVTOJS.

SO..
Taecos dpa /cat Koap,ov TV)(ovaa ot/cta
XprjOTT] av elrj, aVa^r'as Be p,ox8r)pa;
KAAA. <bl)p,l.
2fl. Ovkovv /cat ttXoiov coaavrcos;
KAAA. Nat.
B
2n. Kat p,r)v /cat to. acop-ard <j>ap.ev to. r/p-eTepa;

kaaa. IldVi; ye.
2n. Tt dralas Tvôvcra eorat
S'
tfivxrf;
rj
XPân], Tdea>s re /cat Koapxiv twos;

r)
kaaa. 'AvdyKT) e/c tcov irpooOev /cat tovto

avvop,oXoyelv .
Sfl. Tt ofiv ovop.d earw ev tu> au>p,ari to> e/c
T7)s rdea>s Te Kat tov Koap.ov yiyvop,evu>

;
kaaa. 'Yyieiav /cat laxvv taws Xeyeis.

Se av tu> ev Trj ifn>xfj eyyiyvo-
ri
2fl. "Eywye.
C
p,evcp e/c ttjs rdêws /cat tov Koap.ov; ireipw

evpelv /cat el-new wanep e/cetvo to ovop,a.
kaaa. Tt 8e ovk ai>Tos Xeyeis, TidiKpares
c5
2fl. AAA et aoi Tjoiov earw, eyoj epco- av be,

av p,ev aot So/cd> eyw KaXcbs Xeyew, <f>ddf el be
p/fj, eXeyxe /cat p/f) eTtvrpeire. ep.oi yap So/cet
rat? pev tov aa>p,aTOS Taeaw ovop,a etvai vyieivov,
456
GORGIAS
you like, to see how each of them arranges every

thing according to a certain order, and forces one
part to suit and fit with another, until he has com
bined the whole into a regular and well-ordered
production ; and so of course with all the other
craftsmen, and the people we mentioned just now,
who have to do with the body trainers and doctors ;
they too, I suppose, bring order and system into
the body. Do we admit this to be the case, or not ?
call. Let it be as you say.
soc. Then if regularity and order are found in a
house, it will be a good one, and if irregularity, a
bad one ?
call. I agree.
soc. And it will be just the same with a ship ?
call. Yes.
soc. And further, with our bodies also, can we say ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And what of the soul ? If it shows ir
regularity, will it be good, or if it has a certain
regularity and order ?
call. Our former statements oblige us to agree
to this also.
soc. Then what name do we give to the effect of
regularity and order in the body ?
call. Health and strength, I suppose you mean.
soc. I do. And what, again, to the effect produced
in the soul by regularity and order ? Try to find
the name here, and tell it me as before.
call. Why not name it yourself, Socrates ?
soc. Well, if you prefer it, I will ; and do you, if
I seem to you to name it rightly, say so ; if not, you
must refute me and not let me have my way. For
it seems to me that any regularity of the body is
457
PLATO
i ofi ev avrco r)vyieia yiyverai Kal r) aAArj dperr)

rov aoj/xaros. eon ravra rj ovk eonv;
KAAA. "Eotjj'.
D 2n. Tax? Se rrjs fox^S rdêoi Kal Koafirjaeai
vop,ip.ov re Kal vop.os, odev Kal vop.ip.oi yiyvovrac
/tat Koajxioi' ravra 8' eon ScKaioavvrj re kox
oio<f>poovvri . <f>j)s r)
ov;
KAAA. "E(7TCi).
Ovkovv rrpos ravra pXerrajv 6 pryroip e/cei-
Sn.
vos, 6 rexyiKos re Kal dyados, Kal rovs Xoyovs
npoooLoei rats ijivâis, ovs av Xeyrj, Kai to?
7rpdeis wrraaas, Kal 8aJpov idv n SiSai, Scoaei,
Kai. eav ri d<f>aipfjrat., d<j>aiprjoerai, npos rovro
E del rov vovv e\ct)v, orrcos av avrov rols rroXirais
SiKaioawr) iv rats ifjvxals ylyvrjrai, aSi/a'a
p,ev
Se diraXXdrrrjrai,, Kal ouxjipoavvrj p.ev eyyiyvqrai,
aKoXama 8e aTraXXdrrrjr at., Kal r) aXXrj dperr)
eyylyvryrai, /ca/a'a 8e amy. ovyxcopeis r) ov;
kaaa . "Lvyxiopui
2J1. Ti
yap 5<j>eXos, ai KaAAiVAcis, (jcw/Liari ye
Ka/jLvovri Kal p,oxOrjpa>s 8iaKet,p.evw avria. rroXXd
8i86vai. Kal to. rj8iara rj rrord rj dXX' onovv, o fj.r)
ovrjoet. avro end rovvavnov Kara, ye
on rrXeov rj
rov Si/catov Xoyov Kal eXarrov; eon ravra;
505 kaaa. "Eorco.
2fl. Oi5 ydp, ot/xat, XvacreXet p.era /jiOxdrjpCas
ocofiaros l,r\v dvOpcorra)- dvdyKt] yap ovroi Kal
tfqv /jLoxOrfpais' r) ovx ovrcos ;
458
GORGIAS
called healthiness, and this leads to health being

produced in it, and general bodily excellence. Is
that so or not ?
call. It is.
soc. And the regular and orderly states of the
soul are called lawfulness and law, whereby men
are similarly made law-abiding and orderly ; and
these states are justice and temperance. Do you
agree or not ?
call. Be it so.
soc. Then it is this that our orator, the man of art
and virtue, will have in view, when he applies to
our souls the words that he speaks, and also in all
his actions, and in giving any gift he will give it,
and in taking anything away he will take it, with
this thought always before his mind how justice
.may be engendered in the souls of his fellow-citizens,
and how injustice may be removed ; how temperance
may be bred in them and licentiousness cut off ;
and how virtue as a whole may be produced and
vice expelled. Do you agree to this or not ?
call. I agree.
soc. For what advantage is there, Callicles, in
giving to a sick and ill-conditioned body a quantity
of even the most agreeable things to eat and drink,
or anything else whatever, if it is not going to
profit thereby any more, let us say, than by the
opposite treatment, on any fair reckoning, and may
profit less ? Is this so ?
call. Be it so.
soc. Because, I imagine, it is no gain for a, man
to live in a depraved state of body, since in this case
his life must be a depraved one also. Or is not
that the case ?
459
PLATO
KAAA. Nat.
2a. Ovkovv /cat rds emOvfiias dTTOTTipnrXdvai,
oiov tteivGivra <f>ayetv oaov fiovXerai rj Sitficovra
nielv, vyiaivovTa fxkv ecoaiv ol tarpol cos to 77-oAAa,
Kafivovra 8e, cos eiros elneZv, ovhiiror' icoaiv

i/j.mir\ao6ai cov iiri6vp,ei; crvyxwpets tovto yt
/cat ov;
kaaa. "Eya>ye.
B sa. Yieplifwxrfv, Co dpiore, ovx o adros
8e
TpoTros; ecus p-ev av Trovrjpa 7], avorfTOS T ovao
/cat aKoXaaros /cat dSt/co? /cat avocnos, eipyeu
avrqv Set t&v ernQvp-iGiV /cat p,rj emrpeneLV dXX
arra iroiew rj avxfj ;
kaaa. Hdvv ye.
2n. Ovkovv to elpyeiv icrrlv d<f> cov emOvpe'i
KoXdêiv;
kaaa. Nat.
2n. Td /coAdea#at dpa rfj ifrvxV dpieivov earn
8rj
rj r) coanep ov vvv
d/coAacrta, coov.
kaaa. Ovk ol8' arra Xeyeis, at HcoKpares, dXX
C
dXXov Tivd ipcora.

2fl. OStos dvrjp ovx vnop.evei co<peXovfi.evos /cai
avros tovto ndoxcov rrepl oS Xoyos earri, /coAa-

6
t,6p.evos.
ye'
kaaa. Oi58e ju.01 p,eXei ov8ev <Lv av Xeyeis, /cai

TavTa cot Topyiov XaPlv aTreKpivap.rjv .
2n. Kiev rt ovv /J,eTav tov
8r)
Troir]aop,ev
;
Xoyov KaTaXvopiev
;
kaaa. Auto? yvcoor/.

Sfl. 'AAA' ov8e tovs p,vOovs p,eTav dep.is
D
<f>aol
460
GORGIAS
call. Yes.
soc. And so the satisfaction of one's desires
if one is hungry, eating as much as one likes, or if
thirsty, drinking is generally allowed by doctors
when one is in health ; but they practically never
allow one in sickness to take one's fill of things
that one desires : do you agree with me in this ?
call. I do.
soc. And does not the same rule, my excellent
friend, apply to the soul ? So long as it is in a bad
state thoughtless, licentious, unjust and unholy
we must restrain its desires and not permit it to
do anything except what will help it to be better :
do you grant this, or not ?
call. I do.
soc. For thus, I take it, the soul itself is better off ?
call. Tobe sure.

soc. And is restraining a person from what he
desires correcting him ?
call. Yes.
soc. Then correction is better for the soul than
uncorrected licence, as you were thinking just now.
call. I have no notion what you are referring to,
Socrates ; do ask some one else.
soc. Here is'a fellow who cannot endure a kindness
done him, or the experience in himself of what our
talk is about a correction !
call. Well, and not a jot do I care, either, for
anything you say ; I only gave you those answers
to oblige Gorgias.
soc. Very good. So now, what shall we do ?
Break off our argument midway ?
call. You must decide that for yourself.
soc. Why, they say one does wrong to leave off
461
PLATO
etvai KaraXeiTreiv, dXX' imdevras KeâXriv, Zva p.r)

dvev Ke<f>a\fjs nepur). diroKpivai ovv /cat ra Xonra,
Iva rjfilv 6 Xoyos Kecj>aXr]V XdjUr].
KAAA. Q.s fiiaios et, u> Hi(I)Kpa.TS. eav Se ep.01
Treidr), edaeis \aipew tovtov tov Xoyov, rj /cat
dXXu) to) SiaXe^rj.
Sn. Tt'y ovv dXXos edeXet; p.r) ydp rot, ovreXq
ye tov Xoyov KaTaXiTTO)p,ev .
KAAA. Avros Se ovk av Svvcuo 8ieX6eZv tov
Xoyov, fj Xeyow /caret oavrov rj dnoKpivopievos
aavru>;
J) 2A. Iva fioi to tov Emxdpfiov yevrjTai, a
npb tov Svo dvSpes eXeyov," els d>v iKavos yevojfiai.
aTap KivSvvevei dvayKa.i6ra.T0V etvai ovtojs. et
p.evToi -noir\o~op.ev , oljj.ai, eycoye \pfjvai irdvTas

ij/xa? <f>iXoviKO)s eyew npos to elSevai to dXrjdes
tL eoTi irepl Jiv Xeyopiev /cat tL ifievSos' kowov ydp
dyaOdv diraai <f>avepov yeveaOai avTO. St'etyut fiev
506 ovv t<x> Xoyia eyd) ojs av p.01 Soktj eêtv eav Se Tip
vp,6~Jv p,r) Ta ovTa So/cco 6p.oXoyeZv ep,avTip, %pr)
dvTiXap,fSdveodai /cat eXeyxeiv. ovoe ydp rot, eywye
elSdjs Xeya> a Xeyw, dXXd t,r\TUi Kowfj p,e0' vpuhv,
uioTe, av Tt <f>aivrjTai Xeycov 6 dp.(f>iaf3r)T6)v e/xot,
eyd) irpojTos avyxo)pr]crop,a<,. Xeyoj fievToi Tavra,
el So/cel xpfjvai SiaTrepavdrjvai tov Xoyov el 3e
/cat dma>fj.ev.
8r)
p,r) fiovXeode, ewfiev âtpetv
Epicharmus of Cos produced philosophic comedies in

1
Sicily during the first part of the fifth century. The saying
quoted in full by Athenaeus, vii. 308 to. irpb tov 66' ivSpa
is
i!\eyov eh iyCbv iroxptu-

462
GORGIAS
even stories in the middle ; one should set a head

on the thing, that it may not go about headless.
So proceed with the rest of your answers, that our
argument may pick up a head.
call. How overbearing you are, Socrates ! Take
my advice, and let this argument drop, or find some
one else to argue with.
soc. Then who else is willing ? Surely we must
not leave the argument there, unfinished ?
call. Could you not get through it yourself, either
talking on by yourself or answering your own
questions ?
"
soc. So that, in Epicharmus's phrase,1 what two
"
men spake ere while I may prove I can manage
single-handed. And indeed it looks as though it
must of sheer necessity be so. Still, if we are to
do this, for my part I think we ought all to vie with
each other in attempting a knowledge of what is
true and what false in the matter of our argument ;
for it is a benefit to all alike that it be revealed.
Now I am going to pursue the argument as my view
of it may suggest ; but if any of you think the
admissions I am making to myself are not the
truth, you must seize upon them and refute me.
For I assure you I myself do not say what I say as
knowing it, but as joining in the search with you ;
so that if anyone who disputes my statements is
found to be on the right track, I shall be the first
to agree with him. This, however, I say on the
assumption that you think the argument should be
carried through to a conclusion ; but if you would
rather it were not, let us have done with it now and
go our ways.
463
PLATO
' ropr. 'AAA' euol pev ov So/cei, t5 Ha>Kpares,
B XPlva'- 'nu) d/rttevax, dAAa hiet-eXdeiv ae rov Xoyov
rpalverat Se /xoi /cat rots dXXois SoKeZv. /SouAo/xcu
yap eyooye Kal avros aKovaai aov avrov Suovros
rd errLXovrra.
2n. 'AAAd [ih> 8tf, cS Topyla, Kal auras iJSe'aij
fiev av KaAAi/cAei rovru) en SieXey6p.rjv, ecos avrw
'
rf)v rov Afitfflovos drreSatKa pfjaiv dvrl rfjs rov
TAfiov erteiSn) 8e av, a> ovk edeXeis
KaAAi/cAets,
o-uvhi.arrepS.vat. rov Xoyov, aAA' ofiv epov ye oLkovcdv
emXapfidvov , eav ri ooi So/cta fir) KaXcos Xeyeiv.
C Kai pe eav etjeXeyxys, ovk dxdeod-qoop,at aoi
caarrep av epoi, aXXd peyiaros evepyerrjs rrap
ifiol dvayeypdifij] .
kaaa. Aeye, 'yade, avros Kal rrepawe.

a>
2il. "A.KOve dpxjjs epov dvaXafiovros rov

e
8-r)
oyov. Apa ro rjdv Kai ro ayauov ro avro eanv;

Ov ravrov, <hs eyeb Kal KaAAi/cAiJ? wpoXoyqaap,ev .
Tiorepov 8e to rj8i> eveKa rov dyadov irpatcreov,
r/
ro dyadov eveKa rov ijSe'oj; To ijSu eveKa rov
dyadov. 'H8v 8e eon rovro, ofi rrapayevop.evov
D
r/Sopeda, dyadov he oS -napovros dyadoi iap.ev;

Haw ye. 'AAAa p,fjv dyadoi ye eap.ev koI r/p-eis
Kal r&XXa rrdvra, oaa dyadd eanv, dperfjs rivos
irapayevop.evr]s E/zoiye 8oKei dvayKaiov etvai,
;
a> KaAAiVAei?. 'AAAa. pev ye apery eKaarov,

8-r)
-q
Kai OKevovs Kal aa>p,aros Kal ipvxrjs av Kal a>ou

rravros, ov ra> eiKrj KaXXiara rrapayiyverai, dAAa
rdei Kal dpdorrjn Kal reyvr], rjns eKaaroj drro-
oehorai avrcov dpa eon ravra; 'Eyw p.ev yap
464
GORGIAS
oorg. Well, my opinion is, Socrates, that we ought
not to go away yet, but that you should go through
with the argument ; and I fancy the rest of them
think the same. For I myself, in fact, desire to hear
you going through the remainder by yourself.
soc. Why, to be sure, Gorgias, I myself should
have liked to continue discussing with Callicles here
until I had paid him an Amphion's speech in return
for his of Zethus.1 But since you, Callicles, are
unwilling to join me in finishing off the argument,
you must at any rate pull me up, as you listen, if it
seems to you that my statements are wrong. And
if you refute me, I shall not be vexed with you as
you were with me ; you will only be recorded in my
mind as my greatest benefactor.
call. Proceed, good sir, by yourself, and finish
it off.
soc, Give ear, then ; but first I will resume our
argument from the beginning. Are the pleasant
and the good the same thing ? Not the same, as
Callicles and I agreed. Is the pleasant thing to be
done for the sake of the good, or the good for the
sake of the pleasant ? The pleasant for the sake
of the good. And is that thing pleasant by whose
advent we are pleased, and that thing good by
whose presence we are good ? Certainly. But
further, both we and everything else that is good,
are good by the advent of some virtue ? In my
view this must be so, Callicles. But surely the virtue
of each thing, whether of an implement or of a body,
or again of a soul or any live creature, does not
arrive most properly by accident, but by an order
or Tightness or art that is apportioned to each. Is
Gf. 485 above.
1
vol. v 2 h 465
PLATO
E <f>r)[Ai. dpa rerayp-evov Kal KKoafJ,T]fJ,evov

Tdtjei
eariv r) dperr) eKaarov; QaLrjv dv eycoye. Kdofioj
tis dpa eyyevop.evos ev eKaarw o eKaarov oIkcios
ayadov rrapeêi eKaarov rcbv ovtcov; E/xoiye
ooKet. Kat ipvx^l apa Koap.ov eôvaa rov eavrrjs
afieivaiv rfjs aKoap,rfrov ; 'AvdyKrj. 'AAAa p.-r)v rj
ye Koa/.iov e\ovaa Koap,ia; Wats yap ov p,eXXei;
507 'H Se ye Koapua auxf>pa>v; IloXAr) dvayKr). 'H
dpa a<x><f>poDV tpvxr) dyadrj. eycu p.ev ovk eâ rrapa.
ravra aAAa <f>dvai, <L
î'Ae KaAAi'/cAeis- av S' el
eXls> oioaaKe.
KAAA. Aey', <L 'ya8e.
on, eariv,
el
5fl.
Sr)
Aeyoo aw<f>pa>v dyadr)
rjv ij
r)
Toivavriov rfj o<x)(f>povi KaKrj eariv

rreTTOvdvia
Se avrrj d<f>pci>v re Kal aKoXaaros. Yldvv ye.
6 r)
Kat p,r)v ye adxbpcov rd TrpoarjKOvra rrpdrroi av

Kal nepl deovs Kal rrepl dvOpcovovs' ov yap av
aco<f>povoZ ra p.r) TrpoarjKOvra rrpdrrcov. 'AvayKrj
ravr etvai ovrws. Kdi pvqv rrepi p,ev avOpuiirovs
ra TrpoarjKOvra trpdrroov Si'/cai' av Trpdrroi, rrepl Se
B
deovs data- rov Se to. Si'/caia Kal data rrpdrrovra

dvdyKT) SiKacov Kal oaiov etvai "Eari ravra.
.
ai p.ev or) Kai avopeiov ye avayKrj- ov yap or)

auxf>povos avopos eariv ovre oicoKeiv ovre fievyeiv
a p.r) TTpoar)Kei, dAA a Sei Kai rrpayp-ara Kal
dvdpdiTTOvs Kal r)Sovds Kal Xviras <j>evyeiv Kal
SuoKeiv, Kal VTrop.evovra Kaprepelv ottov Set- ware
dvdyKrj, to KaXXiKXeis, rov aatypova, atorrep
C
77oAA^
466
GORGIAS
that so ? Icertainly agree. Then the virtue of

each thing is a matter of regular and orderly arrange
ment ? I at least should say so. Hence it is a
certain order proper to each existent thing that by
its advent in each makes it good ? That is my view.
So then a soul which has its own proper order is
better than one which is unordered ? Necessarily.
But further, one that has order is orderly ? Of
course it will be. And the orderly one is temperate ?
Most necessarily. So the temperate soul is good. . For
my part, I can find nothing to say in objection to this,
my dear Callicles ; but if you can, do instruct me.
call. Proceed, good sir.
soc. I say, then, that if the temperate soul is
good, one that is in the opposite state to this sensible *
one is bad ; and that was the senseless and dissolute
'
one. Certainly. And further, the sensible man
will do what is fitting as regards both gods and men ;
for he could not be sensible if he did what was
unfitting. That must needs be so. And again, when
he does what is fitting as regards men, his actions
will be just, and as regards the gods, pious ; and he
who does what is just and pious must needs be a just
and pious man. That is so. And surely he must
be brave also : for you know a sound or temperate
mind is shown, not by pursuing and shunning what
one ought not, but by shunning and pursuing what
one ought, whether they be things or people or
pleasures or pains, and by steadfastly persevering
in one's duty ; so that it follows of strict necessity,
Callicles, that the temperate man, as shown in our
1 The argument here makes use of a more literal meaning
" " (verging on " conscientious,"
of atlxfrpw sound-minded
as in what immediately follows).
467
PLATO
8irjX8op,ev, 8l.Kai.oi> dvra Kal dv8peiov Kal

omov
ayadov dv8pa elvai reXeu>s, rov he ayadov ev re
/cat KaXdis nparreiv a av Trparrrj, rov 8 ev rrpdr-
rovra piaKapiov re Kal ev8aip,ova elvai, rov 8e
TTOvrjpov Kai /ca/fajj irparrovra ddXiov ovros 8'
av etr) 6 evavriat; eîov rtu odxjipovi, 6 aKoXaaros,
ov av eTrrjveis.
'Eycb piev ovv ratiTa ovrco riOep.ai Kai c^tj/xi
ravra dX-qdfj elvai- el Se eariv aX-qdrj, tov jSouAd-
D p.evov, <l)s eoiKev, ev8aip,ova etvat aaxf>poaw7]v p.h>
SiatKreov Kal daKrjreov,
aKoXaaiav Se <f>evKreov
(lis e%ei Tto8(x>v eKaaros rjp.a>v, Kal TrapaaKevaareov
pidXiara p.ev p.i]8ev 8eio8ai rod KoXdt,eadai, edv
8e 8e7)6fj r) avros rj dXXos ris rcov oiKeiaiv, r]
I8ia)rrjs rj noXis, enidereov 8iktjv Kal KoXaoreov,
el p,eXXei ev8aipicov elvai. oSros epoiye So/cei 6
okottos elvai, rrpos ov fiXenovra Set tj]v> KaL
ndvra els rovro Kal rd avrov awreivovra Kal rd
rrjs ottws SiKaioavvr) irapearai Kai aco<f>po-
TToXecDs,
E crvvrj ru> p,aKapicp p.eXXovri eaeaOai, ovrai -nparreiv,

ovk emdvpilas eutvra aKoXdarovs elvai Kal ravras
imXeipowra TrXrjpovv, dvr/vvrov KaKov, Xtjotov
fiiov <la>VTa. ovre yap av aXXcp dvOpdi-nat irpoo-
plXrjs av eirj 6 roiovros ovre dew- Koivojveiv yap
orcp 8e p,rj evi Koivatvia, <f>iXia ovk dv
LdSwaros'
el?)..' <f>aal 8' ol ao<j>oi, at KaAAt/cAets, /cat ovpavov
508 ko-1.yfjv xa-l Oeoiis Kal dvdpwnovs rr)v Koivajviav
awe~)(eiv Kal <f>iXiav Kai Koap,i6rt]ra Kai aaxfrpo-
1
As the various meanings of oaHppoa-uvri have been brought
out to suggest that one side of that virtue involves the others,
so here the apparent quibble of eS irpirruv (" act well
" and
468
GORGIAS
exposition, being just and brave and pious, is the

perfection of a good man ; and that the good man
does well and fairly whatever he does ; and that he
who does well is blessed and happy,1 while the
wicked man or evil-doer is wretched. And this
must be the man who is in an opposite case to the
temperate, the licentious man whom you were
commending.
So there is my account of the matter, and I say
that this is the truth ; and that, if this is true, any
one, as it seems, who desires to be happy must ensue
and practise temperance, and flee from licentious
ness, each of us as fast as his feet will carry him,
and must contrive, if possible, to need no correction ;
but if he have need of it, either himself or anyone
belonging to him, either an individual or a city,
then right must be applied and they must be
corrected, if they are to be happy. This, in my
opinion, is the mark on which a man should fix his
eyes throughout life ; he should concentrate all
his own and his city's efforts on this one business of
providing a man who would be blessed with the
needful justice and temperance ; not letting one's
desires go unrestrained and in one's attempts to
satisfy them an interminable trouble leading the
life of a robber. For neither to any of his fellow-
men can such an one be dear, nor to God ; since
he cannot commune with any, and where there is no
communion, there can be no friendship. And wise
men tell us, Callicles, that heaven and earth and
gods and men are held together by communion
and friendship, by orderliness, temperance, and
" fare well ")
is intended to suggest a real dependence of
happiness upon virtue.
469
PLATO
ovvqv Kal 8cKaioT7]Ta, Kal to oXov tovto Sia ravra

Koafxov koXovolv, to croupe, ovk aKOop.lav ov8e
aKoXaolav. oil 8e /xoi So/eels' ov rrpooexeiv tov
vow tovtois, Kal ravra oo<j>6s a>v, dXXd XeXrjde ae
on rj laorrjs r) yewp.erpiKrj Kal iv Oeols Kal iv
dvdpdyirois p.eya Swarat-
ov ok nXeove^lav olei
8etv doKeiv yecofierpias yap dp.eXels. etev rj
oSros Xoyos rjp.iv iariv, ojs ov
8r)
ieXeyKTos
6
oiKaioo-vvrjs Kal oaxfrpoow-qs KTrjoei ei8alp.oves ol
B
ev8atp.oves, KaKLas 8e oi adXioi dOXioi,1 ovtos
el
rj
aXr/drjs eon, aKemeov rt ra. ovp-fiaLvovra.. rd
eKelva, KaAAt'/cAei?, ovp,/3alvei rrdvra,
c3
Trpoadev
ots ov p,e rjpov, OTrovSd^cov Xeyoip,i, Xeyovra
el
e<j)'
ori Karr\yopryreov elf] Kal avrov Kal vleos Kal
eraipov, idv tl dSiKjj, Kal rfj prjropiKfj em tovto
Xprjoreov Kal a UcbXov alo^yvrj a>ov ovyxojpeiv,
dXrjdfj dpa rjv, to etvai to aoiKelv tov doiKeiodai,
C
ooutirep atcr^tov, tooovto) KaKiov Kal tov p.eXXovra

opdeos prjTopiKov eoeodai Si'/caiov dpa Set etvai
Kal emorrjp.ova tu>v oiKalojv, o a$ Yopylav e(f>rj
HwXos St' aloxvvrjv 6p,oXoyrjoai.
Tovtojv 8e ovrats exdvraiv OKeiji(i)p.e6a, ri ttot
iorlv a ov ipiol oWtSi'êis, dpa KaXaJs Xeyerai,
ov, (bs dpa iyd) oi>x olds t elpX fiorjdrjoat ovre
r)
ep,avru> ovre tGsv <j>lXcov ov8evl ov8e rebv olkcIojv,

oi58' eKowoai e.K twv ueylorwv kw8vvu>v, elfil
8e iirl Ta> worrep ol drt/xoi tov ide-
fiovXop.ev(i)
Xovros, dv re rxmrew fiovXryrai., to veaviKov
8r)
D
&B\ioi add. Heindorf.

1
order was the name first given to the

")
1
K6(t/j.o!
("
universe by the Pythagoreans.

470
GORGIAS
justice ; and that is the reason, my friend, why

they call the whole of this world by the name of
order,1 not of disorder or dissoluteness. Now you,
as it seems to me, do not give proper attention to
this, for all your cleverness, but have failed to
observe the great power of geometrical equality
amongst both gods and men : you hold that self-
advantage is what one ought to practise, because
you neglect geometry. Very well : either we must
refute this statement, that it is by the possession
of justice and temperance that the happy are happy
and by that of vice the wretched are wretched ; or
if this is true, we must investigate its consequences.
Those former results, Callicles, must all follow, on
which you asked me if I was speaking in earnest
when I said that a man must accuse himself or his
son or his comrade if he do any wrong, and that this
is what rhetoric must be used for ; and what you
supposed Polus to be conceding from shame is
after all true that to do wrong is worse, in the
same degree as it is baser, than to suffer it, and
that whoever means to be the right sort of rhetorician
must really be just and well-informed of the ways
of justice, which again Polus said that Gorgias was
only shamed into admitting.
This being the case, let us consider what weight,
if any, there is in the reproaches you cast upon me : 2
is it fairly alleged or not that I am unable to stand
up for myself or any of my friends and relations, or to
deliver them from the sorest perils, but am exposed
like an outcast to the whim of anyone who chooses
to give me the dashing phrase is yours a box
2
Socrates proceeds to recall the reproaches of Callicles,
above, 486.
471
PLATO
rovro rov aov Xoyov, em Kopprjs, edv re xprjpiara

d(f>aipeioOai, edv re eKfidXXeiv e/c rrjs rroXecos,
edv re, ro eo~xp.rov, dnoKrelvaf /cat ovrco Sta-
Keladat, ionv,
8rj
rrdvrcov ataîarov cos oos
6
Aoyos. o oe Orj epos oons, ttoAAclkis p.ev i]or\
elprjrat,, ov8ev Se KcoXvei /cat en XeyeoOai- ov
<f>r)p,i, co KaAAt/cAeis, to rvrrreadai em Kopprjs
dSi/ca)? ala^Larov elvcu, ovoe ye ro rep.veo8ai
E
ovre ro ocop,a ro ep.6v ovre ro fiaXdvnov, dXXa

ro rvrrreiv /cat ep.e /cat ra cud dbiKcos /cat rep,vea>
/cat ata^tov /cat KaKiov, /cat KXe-nrew ye a/â icat
dvhpa.TTohlt,eadai /cat roi\copvj(eiv /cat ovXXr/fiSrjv
onovv dSiKelv /cat ep,e /cat rd ep.d rep dSixovvn
/cat /cd/ctov /cat ata^tov etvai ep,ol rep dSiKov-
77
p,evcp. ravra rjp.iv dvco e/cet ev rots rrpoade
509 Xoyois ovrco (f>avevra, cos eyco Xeyco, /careêrat
/cat Se'Serai, /cat et dypoiKorepov elneiv eon, tl
oi8r]pois /cat a8ap,avrivois Xoyois, cos yovv av
86i;eiev ovrcooi, ovs ov aov ns
el
p/q Xvaeis
r/
veaviKcorepos, ov% otov re dXXcos Xeyovra cos
rj
eyco vvv Xeyco kclXcos Xeyeiv eVet ep.oi.ye avros 6
Xoyos eorlv del, on eyco ravra ovk otSa

oitcos
exel> on p,evroi <Lv eyco evrervxqKa, coorrep vvv,
ovoels olos r eorlv dXXcos Xeycov p/r] ov Kara-
yeXaoros etvai. eyco p,ev ovv av ndr]p.i ravra
,
el
ovrcos e%eiv ok ovrcos eêt /ca' p.eyiorov rcov

B
KaKcbv eorlv dSi/a'a ra> doiKOwn /cat en rovrov

rj
p.elt,ov p.eyiarov ovros, otov re, ro aSiKOvvra

el
p.7] StSoVat SIktjv, rlva av fio-qdeiav pvq ovvdpievos

dvOpcoTTOS f3or)6eiv eavrcp KarayeXaoros av rfj dXrj-
6ela eirj; dp' ov ravrrjv, rjns dirorpeifiei rr/v
p,eylarrjv rjp,cov pXdfirjv; dXXa iroXXq dvaryKt]
472
GORGIAS
on the ear ; or strip me of my substance or expel

me from the city ; or, worst of all, put me to death ;
and that to be in such a case is the lowest depth of
shame, as your account has it ? But mine -though
it has been frequently stated already, there can be
no objection to my stating it once again is this :
I deny, Callicles, that to be wrongfully boxed on
the ear is the deepest disgrace, or to have either
my person cut or my purse ; I hold that to strike or
cut me or mine wrongfully is yet more of a disgrace
and an evil, and likewise stealing and kidnapping
and housebreaking, and in short any wrong whatso
ever done to me or mine, are both worse and more
shameful to the wrongdoer than to me the wronged.
All this, which has been made evident in the form
I have stated some way back in our foregoing dis
cussion, is held firm and fastened if I may put it
rather bluntly with reasons of steel and adamant
(so it would seem, at least, on the face of it) which
you or somebody more gallant than yourself must
undo, or else accept this present statement of mine
as the only possible one. For my story is ever the
same, that I cannot tell how the matter stands,
and yet of all whom I have encountered, before as
now, no one has been able to state it otherwise
without making himself ridiculous. Well now, once
more I assume it to be so ; but if it is so, and injustice
is the greatest of evils to the wrongdoer, and still
greater than this greatest, if such can be, when the
wrongdoer pays no penalty, what rescue is it that
a man must be able to eiFect for himself if he is not
to be ridiculous in very truth ? Is it not one which
will avert from us the greatest harm ? Nay, rescue
473
PLATO
Tavrrjv etvai tt)v alaxlarrjv fiorjdeiav, p.r) 8vvao~9at,
fiorjdetv pvrjre aurai Lirjre toZs avrov <f>l\ots re
C /cat oiKelois, Sevrepav Se ttjv tov SevTepov kclkov
/cat rptT-qv tt)v tov rpirov /cat rdAAa ovtojs' toy
e/cdorou KaKov p.eye6os Tre<f>vKev, ovtoo /cat KaXXos
tov Bvvarov elvai ea5' e/caora fiorjdetv /cat alo~xyvr\
tov /177. apa aAAco? ?? ourcu? exet ^ KaAAt'/cAetj;
kaaa. 0i5/c dAAwy.
2n. Anew ofo ovtow, tov dSt/cetv T /cat d8t-
Keicrdai, p,elt,ov fiev <j>ap,ev kclkov to d8i/ceiv,
eXaTTOv Se to dSt/ceio-flat. tL ovv dv irapaoKeva-
adpuevos avdpuynos fiorjdrjaeiev avrut, ware apuJM-
Tepag ret? coaSeAet'a? ravra? ^Xelv> TVV T *77
J) tov Lirj dSt/ceic /cat ttj^ oltto tov lit) dSt/cetcrfat;

noTepa dvvafj.iv 17 povArjo-iv; woe oe Aeyar 7ro-
Tepov p,rj fiovXrjTai dSt/ceicrflat,
edv ow/c dSt/CTj-
oerat, r) edv Swap.iv napaaKevdcrqTai toO /utj
dSt/ceio-flat, ou/c dSt/c^crerat;
kaaa. AijXov tovto ye, oti edv Svvapuv.
r)
~f Tt tou dSt/cetv; iroTepov edv

8^
sci. Se p.rj
fiovXyjTai,dSiKetv, Ikovov tovt' ydp eariv ov
dSt/crycret
/cat em tovto Set hvvap.lv Ttva /cat
rj
Tex"7]v rrapaaKevaaaaOai, d)s, edv p.r) p.adr) aura

E
p.0L tovto
ye'
/cat daKTârj, dSt/aycret; Tt oi3/c avrd

dveKpivoi, co KaAAt/cAet?, TtOTepov 001 SoKovp.ev
6p9a>s dvayKaadfjvai oLioXoyetv ev rots eiimpo-
adev Adyots eycu re /cat FIcSAo? ov, rjviKa d>/xo-
rj
Xoyrjaap,ev pyqSeva fiovXoiievov dSiKelv, dAA' d/cov-

Tas Tovs dSiKovvTas rrdvTas dSiKetv;
kaaa. "Earco trot tovto, Zaj/c/jares', ourais,
c5
510
tva SiaTrepdvrjs tov Adyov.
474
GORGIAS
must needs be at its shamefullest, if

one is unable to
rescue either oneself or one's own friends and relations,
and second to it is inability in face of the second
sort of evil, and third in face of the third, and so on
with the rest ; according to the gravity attaching
to each evil is either the glory of being able to effect
a rescue from each sort, or the shame of being
unable. Is it so or otherwise, Callicles ?
call. Not otherwise.
soc. Then of these two, doing and suffering wrong,
we declare doing wrong to be the greater evil, and
suffering it the less. Now with what should a man
provide himself in order to come to his own rescue,
and so have both of the benefits that arise from
doing no wrong on the one hand, and suffering none
on the other ? Is it power or will ? What I mean
is, will a man avoid being wronged by merely wishing
not to be wronged, or will he avoid it by providing
himself with power to avert it ?
call. The answer to that is obvious : by means
of power.
soc. But what about doing wrong ? Will the mere
not wishing to do it suffice since, in that case, he will
not do it or does it require that he also provide
himself with some power or art, since unless he has
got such learning or training he will do wrong ? I
really must have your answer on this particular
point, Callicles whether you think that Polus and
I were correct or not in finding ourselves forced to
admit, as we did in the preceding argument, that
no one does wrong of his own wish, but that all
who do wrong do it against their will.
call. Let it beas you would have it,Socrates,inorder
that you may come to a conclusion of your argument.
475
PLATO
sn. Kai eiri tovto dpa, cos eot/ce, TrapaoKevaareov

earl ovvap.lv riva Kal Teyvrpi, ottcos pyfj dSiK^crofiev.
kaaa. Udvv ye.
2fl. Tis ovv ttot earl rexyrj Trjs napaaKevijs
rov p.r)8ev dSiKelodai, rj cos oXlyiara; OKetf/ai et
aol So/cei rjirep ep.oi. ep.ol p.kv yap So/cei TjSe1
q avrov dpxîv oelv ev rfj iroXei, 77 /cat rvpaweiv,
rj Trjs virapxovtrqs rroXirelas eratpov etvai.
B KAAA. Opas, a> TicoKpares, cos iytb eroipLos
elpa errawelv, dv ti koXcos Xeyrjs; tovto p.01
8o/ceis -ndvv koXcos elprjKevai.
2n. /cat roSe lav
817
S/co77et 001 So/ccS ev Xeyeiv.

<j>i.Xos fJ.01 So/cet e/caoros e/cdorco etfat cos otov t
p-dXiora, ovrtep oi iraXaioi re /cat oo<f>ol Xeyovoiv,
o o/xotos tc3 OLLOicp. ov /cat aot;
I
KAAA. "Eyaotye.
2fl. Ou/cow 07TOD rvpawos earw dpxcov dypios
/cat d7Tai'8evTos, et rts rovrov ev rfj TroXei rroXi)
fieXricov elr], tfrofioiTO Srfnov dv avrov rvpawos 6
drravros rov vov ovk dv nore 8vvcu.ro

e
/cat Tovrcp
Q
yeveadai;
<f>lXos
kaaa. "Eort raura.
rts ttoXv cj>avX6repos etrj, oi)8'
et
sn. OvBe ye
dv oSros' Karacppovoi yap dv avrov o rvpawos
Kal ovk dv TTore cos 77736s tf>iXov cnrovoaaeiev .
kaaa. Kat ravr' dXrjOrj.
2n. Kei-nerai
St)
e'/cetvos p.6vos dtos Adyou

cf>lXos rco roLOvrco, os dv 6p,OT]8rjs tov, ravrd
ifieycov Kal eirawcov, edeXrj dpyeaOai /cat vtto-
KeiaQai rco dpxovn. oSros p.eya ev ravrrj rfj
476
GORGIAS
soc. Then for this purpose also, of not doing wrong,
it seems we must provide ourselves with a certain
power or art.
call. To be sure.
soc. Now what can be the art of providing so
that we suffer no wrong, or as little as possible ?
Consider if you take the same view of it as I do.
For in my view it is this : one must either be a
ruler, or even a despot, in one's city, or else an
associate of the existing government.
call. Do you note, Socrates, how ready I am to
praise, when you say a good thing ? This seems to
me excellently spoken.
soc. Then see if this next statement of mine
strikes you as a good one too. It seems to me that
the closest possible friendship between man and
man is that mentioned by the sages of old time as
" like to like." Do
you not agree ?
call. I do.
soc. So where you have savage, uneducated
a
ruler as despot, if there were some one in the city
far better than he, I suppose the despot would be
afraid of him and could never become a friend to
him with all his heart ?
call. That is so.
soc. Nor a friend to anyone who was much inferior
to him either ; for the despot would despise him and
never show him the attention due to a friend.
call. That is true also.
soc. Then the only friend of any account that
remains for such a person is a man of his own temper,
who blames and praises the same things, and is
thus willing to be governed by him and to be subject
to his rule. He is a man who will have great power
477
PLATO
D 7ToAet SwTqaerai, tovtov ouSeiy ât'pcui' dSt/ojaet.

oi>x ovtcos e%ei;
kaaa. Nat.
2n. Ei dpa tis eworjoeiev ev Tavrr) tt\ 7rdAei
twv vecov,
"
Tuva av Tponov eyd> p.eya owat/xrjv
"
/cat fir/Sets p.e dSt/cot; av-rr), d>s eot/cev, avrw
686s earuv, evdvs e/c veov eduêuv avrov tols avrois
ât'pew /cat a^deadai Tip SeaTTorrj, /cat irapa-
o~Kevdeiv ottios oti /idAiora 6p,oios eorat e/ceiva/.
ov\ ovtios;
KAAA. Nat.
E 2n. Ovkovv tovt<o to dSi/ceio'6'ai /cat
p,ev p,r)
p,eya 8vvaodau, cos 6 vpLerepos Xoyos, ev rfj iroXei
8ianeTrpai;eTai .
kaaa. Haw ye.
Sn. TAp' ovv /cat to p,r) dSiKeiv; rj iroXAov
Set, ei-nep op-oioy eorat t<5 ap\ovri ovtu aSi/ca>
/cat Trapd touto) /xeya SwijcreTai; dAA' oi/zai
eycoye, rrdv tovvovtlov ovtcogi rrapaaKevr)
7]
corai avrco erri to oia> t etvai ws TrXeZcrra dSt-
/cetf /cat dSt/cowTa /it^ SiSoVat Slktjv rj ydp;
KAAA. OatVeTai.
511 2n. Ovkovv to p,eyiarov avrcp /ca/cov vrrdpêi
p,oxdr)pa) ovri rr)v ipvxrjv /cat AeAw/Ji^/ieVo) Sid
t^v p,ip.r\auv tov SeoTTorov /cai 8vvap.iv.
kaaa. Ovk ol8' oTtr) arpeêis eKaarore tovs
Xoyovs avat /cat KaTio, co Sio/cpare?" 77
oi5/c otada
oti ovros 6 p.ip,ovp.evos tov p,rj p,ip.ovp,evov eKeZvov
drroKrevei, edv fiovArjTai, /cat d<j>aiprjaeTai to.
own;
B 2n. OJSa, 'yade KaAAi'/cAet?, ei /n.r) KiixbiU
c5
y eip.1, /cat aov aKovwv /cat Hu>Aov apTi 7roAAd/ct?

478
GORGIAS
in that state ; him none will wrong with impunity.

Is it not so ?
call. Yes.
soc. Hence if
one of the young men in that city
should reflect: In what way can I have great power,
and no one may do me wrong ? this, it would
seem, is the path he must take, to accustom himself
from his earliest youth to be delighted and annoyed
by the same things as his master, and contrive to
be as like the other as possible. Is it not so ?
call. Yes.
soc. And this man will have attained to a
so
condition of suffering no wrong and having great
power as your party maintain in the city.
call. Certainly.
soc. And of doing no wrong likewise ? Or is it quite
the contrary, if he is to be like his unjust ruler,
and have great influence with him ? Well, for my
part, I think his efforts will be all the opposite way,
that is, towards enabling himself to do as much
wrong as possible and to pay no penalty for the
wrong he does ; will they not ?
call. Apparently.
soc. And thus he will find himself possessed of the
greatest evil, that of having his soul depraved and
maimed as a result of his imitation of his master
and the power he has got.
call. You have a strange way of twisting your
arguments, at each point, this way or that, Socrates !
Surely you know that this imitator will put to
death anyone who does not imitate his master, if
he pleases, and will strip him of his property.
soc. I know that, my good Callicles, if I am not
deaf, as I have heard it so often of late from you and
479
PLATO
Kal tcov dXXcov oXiyov rravrcov tcov ev rfj rroXev
dXXa Kal aii e/xou aKove, on arroKreveZ ciev, av
/3ovXr]Tai, dXXd rrovrjpos cuv KaXov Ka.ya.66v ovra.
KAAA. Ovkovv tovto kch to dyavaKTrprov
Srj
;
2&. Ov vovv ye expvri, wj Xoyos cnj/xatVet.
6
oiei oelv tovto rrapacrKevdêcrOai dvdpconov,
rj
cos rrXeZarov \povov t,r\v, Kal iteAeTaV ra? re^vaj

ravras, at rjp.ds del er tcov Kivhvvcov <jcp,ovaw,
cocmep Kal rjv ov KeXeveis e'/xe iteAerdV ttjv prjTo-
C
piKrjv tt/v ev toZs Si/caffTijpiot? 8iaocpovoav
;
kaaa. Nat p,d Ai" opdcos ye aoi ovp,fiovXevcav .
Sn. Ti Se, co jSeArtOTc; Kal tov vetv em-
rj
rj
ctttj/xtj aepwrj tis aoi So/cei elvai;
KAAA. Ma Ai" ovk ep,oiye.
2n. Kat p.r)v acoXêi ye Kal avrr/ e/c BavaTov
tovs dvdpcorrovs, orav els toiovtov ep/neacoaw
,
S'
TavT-qs ttjs emarrjiirjs.
el
ofi Set avrrf aoi
SoKeZ OLUKpa eivai, eycb aoi p.eit,ova Tavrrj?
ov llovov raj
D
epco, Tr/v Kt)/3epvr]TiKrjv, ifivxds

rj
acpt,ei, dXXa Kal to. acbiiaTa Kal to. xprjikaTa., e/c

tcov iaxdrcov KivSwcov, coarrep pr/TopiKrj- Kal
rj
avrrj p,ev TrpoaearaXftevrj eVri /cat Koapiia, i<a
ov aeiivweTai ecr^TjitaTio-iteV?} cos vrreprjcf>av6v ti

SiaTrpaTTop,evrj aAAd raura hiarrpaâp.evrj rfj
,
Alylvr/s 8evpo ococrrj, olfiai

e
SiKaviKrj, edv p,ev

Su' djSoAou? Alyvrnov Ik
e
inpdâTO, edv Se
rj
tov Hovtov, edv rrdfiTToXv, Tavrqs ttjs fJieydXrjs

eXeyov, Kal clvtov
Srj
evepyemas, acoaaa a vvv

E
Cf. Callicles' warning (486 against the danger of

1
b)
being put to death on the false accusation of some paltry

rascal.
About fourpence.
2
480
GORGIAS
Polus, and from almost every one else in the town ;

but you in return must hear what I say that he
will put a man to death if he pleases, but it will be a
villain slaying a good man and true.
call. And is not this the very thing that makes
one indignant ? x
soc. Not if one is a man of sense, as our argument
indicates. Or do you suppose that the object of a
man's efforts should be to live as long a time as
possible, and to cultivate those arts which preserve
us from every danger ; such as that which you bid
me cultivate rhetoric, the art that preserves us
in the law courts ?
call. Yes, on my word I do, and sound advice it
is that I give you.
soc. But now, my excellent friend, do you think
there is anything grand in the accomplishment of
swimming ?
call. No, in truth, not I.
soc. Yet, you know, that too saves men from
death, when they have got into a plight of the kind
in which that accomplishment is needed. But if
this seems to you too small a thing, I will tell you
of a more important one, the art of piloting, which
saves not only our lives but also our bodies and our
goods from extreme perils, as rhetoric does. And at
the same time it is plain-fashioned and orderly, not
giving itself grand airs in a pretence of performing
some transcendent feat ; but in return for performing
the same as the forensic art bringing one safely
over, it may be, from Aegina it charges a fee, I
believe, of two obols 2 ; or if it be from Egypt or
the Pontus, at the very most for this great service
of bringing safe home, as I said just now, oneself
vol. v 2 1 481
PLATO
kclI TTaiBas xpr]p\.ara K(U yvvalxas, mro-

/ecu
fiifidoao' els rov Xip.eva Svo Spa^îas eirpdtjaro,

/ecu avros 6 eyuiv rrjv reyyrjv koX ravra Siairpa-
duevos e/c/Jdy napa rrjv ddXarrav rr/v vavv
/ecu
TrepnrareZ ev p,erpiu> cryr\p,an. Xoylêadai yap,
ot/xai, emorarai, on dSrjXov eonv, ovcrrivas
re w<f>eX7]K rcov ovpvnXeovrcov ovk edaas Kara-
TTOVTodrjvai /ecu ovonvas efiXaipev, eiScos on
ovSev airrovs fieXrlovs iêfilfiaaev t] otoi evefirjoav,
512 ovre rd
crtop.ara ovre rds ipv^ds- Xoylêr ai ovv,
on ovk, ei fx.ev tis LieyaXois kcu aviarois voorj-
uaoi Kara to acoua ovve-)(op.evos urj dneTrvlyrj ,
ovros p-ev ddXuos eonv on ovk dwedave, kcu
ovhev vtt' avrov UHpeXrjTtw el oe ns dpa ev rep
rov crcofiaros rfj
tpv^fj, TroXXd vootj-
np.icore.pcp,
uara eêi /ecu dviara, rovrcp Se fiicoreov earl kcu
rovrov dvtfoei.,1 av re eK daXdrr-qs dv re e/c Si-
Kaorrjplov dv re dXXoOev orroOevovv crcoorj, dXX
B olSev, on ovk dp.eivov eon t,rjv rot p.oyQi]p{p dv-
Opdmcp

/ea/eai? yap dvayKTj earl t,rjv.
Aia ravra ov vollos earl oep.vvveadat. rov Kvfiep-
vqrrjv, Kavnep acpt,ovra T\p.as' ov8e ye, ai davftd-
aie, rov p.rjxavoiToi.6v , os ovre orparTjyov, /xr) on
Kvêpvtjrov, ovre dXXov ovSevos eXdrrto eviore
Svvarai crwêw TroXeis yap eonv ore oXas acpZ,ei.
p.r) ooi SoKeZ Kara rov SiKaviKov elvat,; /eaiTOi ei
ftovXoLro Xeyeiv, a> KaAAtK-Aeiy, dnep vp.eZs, aepuvv-
vcov ro vpaypia, Kara^cooeiev dv vp,as roZs Xoyois,
C Xeytov Kal TrapaKaXwv inl ro 8eZv yiyveadai firj-
1
6vi)(rei. Deuschle : drfaetcr mss.
1
About two shillings.
482
GORGIAS
and children and goods and womenfolk on landing

us in harbour it charges a couple of drachmae 1 ;
and the actual possessor of the art, after performing
all this, goes ashore and strolls on the quay by his
vessel's side, with an unobtrusive demeanour.
For he knows, I expect, how to estimate the un
certainty as to which of his passengers he has
benefited by not letting them be lost at sea, and
which he has injured, being aware that he has put
them ashore not a whit better than when they came
aboard, either in body or in soul. And so he
reckons out how wrong it is that, whereas a victim
of severe and incurable diseases of the body who
has escaped drowning is miserable in not having
died, and has got no benefit at his hands, yet, if a
man has many incurable diseases in that part of
him so much more precious than the body, bis soul,
that such a person is to live, and that he will be
doing him the service of saving him either from the
sea or from a law court or from any other peril
whatsoever : no, he knows it cannot be better for
a man who is vicious to five, since he must needs
live ill.
This is why it is not the custom for the pilot to
give himself grand airs, though he does save our
lives nor for the engineer either, my admirable
;
friend, who sometimes has the power of saving fives
in no less degree than a general to say nothing
of a pilot or anyone else : for at times he saves
whole cities. Can you regard him as comparable
with the lawyer ? And yet, if he chose to speak as
you people do, Callicles, magnifying his business,
he would bury you in a heap of words, pleading and
urging the duty of becoming engineers, as the only
483
PLATO
Xovottoiovs , ws oubev rdAAa eariv

Ikovos yap
aurcp 6 Xoyos- dAAd av ouSev tfrrov avrov Kara-
<f>povets Kal rrjs re)(yrjs rfjs eKelvou, Kal cos ev
oVei'Sei aTroKaXeoais av p-rjâvoTTOiov, Kal r<o ulel
avrov our av oovvai uuyarepa eoeAois, our av
auros XafleZv ttjv eKeivou. Kairoi e <bv rd oavrov
enaivels, rivi Si/ccu'ai X6ya> rot? p/rixavoiroiou Kara-
(f>povLS Kal tcuv dXXaiv cSV iw 8^ eXeyov ; olo'
D ori <f>a[y]s av fieXriwv elvai Kal e/c fteXriovatv. to
e peATiov ei psn ecrnv o eyai Aeyw, aAA avro
tout' iarlv apery, to o~cpew aurov Kal ra. eaurov
ovra ottoios ns eruxe, KarayeXaoros aot, 6 tfioyos
yiyverai Kal p.rjxavoTroi,od Kal larpov Kal tcov
dXXojv rzyyoxv, ocrai rov acpêiv eVe/ca TreTroCrjvrai,.
dXX', c3 p,aKapie, Spa p,rj dXXo rt, to yevvaZov Kal
ro ayadov fj rou o~tpeiv re Kal awêadai. /at) yap
touto fxkv, to tjqv onooovSr] yjpovov, rov ye toj
E aXrjdcus dvopa eareov earl Kal ou (friXoipuxyreov ,
dAAd emrpeîavra Ttepi rovrcov ru> deep /cat Triorev-
aavra rats yuvaiîv, on rr/v elp,app,evqv ov8' av
els eK<f>uyoi, to em rouruj aKe-nreov, riv' av
Tponov rourov ov /xe'AAoi xpovov jStcSvai ojs dpiara
fiicprj, apa eouoia>v aurov rrj TroXireiq Tavrr\ ev
513 $ av oIktj, Kal vuv Se apa Set ere d>s op-oiorarov
ylyveaQai ra> 8ijp,cp ru> ABijjvw.ua>, el jaeAAet?
touto) Trpoacf>i,Xrjs etvat Kal p,eya Suvaadat. ev
rfj
iroXef roud' Spa vol AucrtTeAet Kal ep,oi, ottois

el
ras n^
cS
pvq, 8aip,6vie, rreiaop-eda orrep <f>aol

aeXrjvqv Kadaipouaas, ras QerraXlBas' crvv rols
Socrates alludes to the popular theory that the practice

1
of witchcraft a serious danger or utter destruction to the

is
practiser.
484
GORGIAS
thing ; for he would find reasons in plenty. But

you none the less despise him and his special
art, and you would call him " engineer in a
taunting sense, and would refuse either to bestow
your daughter on his son or let your own son
marry his daughter. And yet after the praises
you sing of your own pursuits what fair ground
have you for despising the engineer and the others
whom I was mentioning just now ? I know you
would claim to be a better man and of better birth.
" "
But if better has not the meaning I give it, but
virtue means just saving oneself and one's belongings,
whatever one's character may be, you are merely
ridiculous in cavilling at the engineer and the doctor
and every other art that has been produced for our
safety. No, my gifted friend, just see if the noble
and the good are not something different from
saving and being saved. For as to living any
particular length of time, this is surely a thing that
any true man should ignore, and not set his heart
on mere life ; but having resigned all this to Heaven
and believing what the women say that not one
of us can escape his destiny he should then pro
ceed to consider in what way he will best live out
his allotted span of life ; whether in assimilating
himself to the constitution of the state in which
he may be dwelling and so therefore now, whether
it is your duty to make yourself as like as possible
to the Athenian people, if you intend to win its
affection and have great influence in the city : see
if this is to your advantage and mine, so that we
may not suffer, my distinguished friend, the fate
that they say befalls the creatures who would draw
down the moon the hags of Thessaly ; * that our
485
PLATO
(fnXraTOis rj cupems rjptv earai ravrrjs rfjs Svvd-

pecos rrjs ev rfj iroXei. el 8e aoi olei ovtwow
avopcovcov napaScoaeiv Texyrjv Tivd ToiavTrjv , tJtls
B ce Troirjaei p,eya hvvaadai ev rfj -noXeu rijSe av-
opoiov ovra rfj noXirela eir' em to (HXtcov elr
em to xeipov, epol 8oKet, ovk opOcos fiovXevrj,
cos
co KaAAiVAeiy ov yap p,ipr)Tr)v Set etiât a.XX'
avTo<f>vcos opoiov tovtois, el jtieAAei? ti yviqaiov
aTrepyaea9ai els </>iXlav tco 'Adrjvalcov 8^pco ko\ val
pa Ala TO) YlvpiXapirovs ye Trpos. ootls ovv ae tov
tois opoioTaTOV airepydoeTai, ovtos oe nonjoei, cos
em6vp,els ttoXitikos etvai, ttoXitikov Kal prjTopiKov.
C tco avrcov ydp r]6eL Xeyopevcov tcov Xoycov e/caorot
yalpovoi, tco Be dXXoTplcp dxôvrai, el p,rj tl ov
dXXo Xeyeis, co <f>lXy) Ke<f>aXtf. Xeyopev tl Trpos
ravra, co KaXXli<Xeis;
KAAA. Ovk otS' ovTivd p,oi rpoirov SoKets ev
Xeyeiv, co ILcoKpaTes, TrenovOa he to tcov ttoXXcov
irados' ov iravv aoi nei.dop.ai.
2n. '0 Srjpov yap epcos, co KaAAi'jcAei?, evcbv ev
Tjj ipvxfj Tfj ofj dvTioTaTei p.oi- dXX' idv TroXXaKis
D locos Kal fieXTiov TavTa ravTa 8iaaKOTra>p,eda
TreioO-qorj.avapv7]a07]Ti 8 ovv, otl 8vo e<f>ap,ev
elvai Tas napacrKevas em to eKaoTov depanevew
Kal acopa Kal tfivxtfv, plav pev npos r)8ovr)v opuXetv,
ttjv eTepav he trpos to fSeXriorov , pr) /caraâptô-
pevov dXXa 8iap.axop.evov. ov ravTa rjv a Tore
cbpiôpeda;
kaaa. Hdvv ye.
Of. above, 481 d.

1
486
GORGIAS
choice of this power in the city may not cost us
all that we hold most dear. But if you suppose
that anyone in the world can transmit to you such
an art as will cause you to have great power in this
state without conforming to its government either
for better or for worse, in my opinion you are ill-
advised, Callicles ; for you must be no mere imitator,
but essentially like them, if you mean to achieve
any genuine sort of friendship with Dermis the
Athenian people, ay, and I dare swear, with Demus
son of Pyrilampes 1 as well. So whoever can render
you most like them is the person to make you
a statesman in the way that you desire to be a
statesman, and a rhetorician ; for everybody is
delighted with words that are designed for his
special temper, but is annoyed by what is spoken
to suit aliens unless you have some other view,
dear creature. Have we any objection to this,
Callicles ?
call. It seems to me, I cannot tell how, that your
statement is right, Socrates, but I share the common
feeling ; I do not quite believe you.
soc. Because the love of Demus, Callicles, is there
in your soul to resist me : but if haply we come to
examine these same questions more than once, and
better, you will believe. Remember, however, that
we said there were two treatments that might be
used in the tendance of any particular thing, whether
body or soul : one, making pleasure the aim in
our dealings with it ; the other, working for what
is best, not indulging it but striving with it as hard
as we can. Was not this the distinction we were
making at that point ?
call. Certainly.
487
PLATO
SO. erepa, rj rtpos rj8ovrjv, ayewrjs
Ovkovv rj p.ev
Kal ov8ev aXXo rj KoXaKela rvyxdvei ovoa- rj yap;
E kaaa. "Ecttoj, el fiovXet, aol ovrcus-
2fl. 'H 8e ye erepa, ottojs <Ls fieXricrrov ecrrai
rovro, elre au>p,a rvyydvei ov etre >1>VX!1> 6epa-
rrevop,ev;
kaaa. Hdvv ye.
2n. TAp' ofiv ovrcos emêipr/reoy tjju.iv eari rfj
iroXei Kal rots TroXirais depanevetv, (Ls fieArlcrrovs
avrovs rovs rroXlras 77010 wras;
8rj
dvev yap
rovrov, <bs ev rots rjvpioKop,ev, oi>8ev
ep-rrpoodev
S<f>eXos dXXrjv evepyeaiav ov8ep.iav rrpoafyepeiv edv
,
514 p-rj KaXrj Kayadrj 8idvoia rcov p.eXX6vrojv
rj
rj
fi
Xpr]p.ara rroXXd Xap./3dveiv dpxtfv nvu>v aXXrjv
rj
rj
8wap.1v rjvTivovv. <f>wp.ev ovrois e\eiv;
kaaa. Y[dvv ye,
el
001 rj8iov.
2n. Ei odv rrapeKaXovp,ev aXXr/Xovs, a> KaAAi-
tcXeis, 8r)p.omq rrpdôvres rd>v ttoXitikwv rrpay-
p,dra>v em rd oiKoSop,i.Ka, vecopicuv
ij
rj
rev)(G>v
lepcov em rd p,eyiara 0lK080p.rjp.ara, rrorepov
rj
eSet av rjp.as UKeifiaodai rjp.ds avrovs Kal iêrdoai,

ovk
el
rtpdrov p,ev emardp.eda rrjv

B
reyyrp>
rj
emordp,eda, rrjv oi/coSo/lu/ct/v Kal rrapa rov

,
ep.avop.ev; eoei av ov;

rj
kaaa. Tidvv ye.

av r68e, ri
el
1,0.. Ovkovv Sevrepov -nwrrore

olKo86p,rjp,a (LKo8op.rjKap.ev iSia rcov (ftlXaiv rtvl
rj
rjp.erepov avrwv, Kal rovro to oiKo86p.r]p,a KaXov

rj rj
aloxpdv eorr Kal

el
p-ev rjvpl.oKop.ev aKorrovpievoi

8i8aoKaXovs re rjp.u>v dyadovs Kal eXXoytp,ovs
yeyovoras Kal olKo8op,r]p,ara rroXXd p.ev Kal KaXd
C
488
GORGIAS
soc. Then the one, aiming at pleasure, is ignoble

and really nothing but flattery, is it not ?
call. Be it so, if you like.
soc. And the aim of the other is to make that
which we are tending, -whether it be body or soul, as
good as may be.
call. To be sure.
soc. Then ought we not to make it our endeavour,
in tending our city and its citizens, to make those
citizens as good as possible ? For without this,
you see, as we found in our former argument, there
is no use in offering any other service, unless the
intentions of those who are going to acquire either
great wealth or special authority or any other sort of
power be fair and honourable. Are we to grant
that ?
call. Certainly, if you so prefer.
soc. Then if you and I, Callicles, in setting about
some piece of public business for the state, were to
invite one another to see to the building part of it,
say the most important erections either of walls or
arsenals or temples, would it be our duty to consider
and examine ourselves, first as to whether we
understood the art of building or not, and from whom
we had learnt it ? Would we have to do this, or
not ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And so again, in the second place, whether
we had ever erected any building privately for one
of our friends or for ourselves, and whether such build
ing was handsome or ugly ? And if we found on con
sideration that we had been under good and reputable
masters, and that there were many handsome
buildings that had been erected by us with our
489
PLATO
fiera. ruiv SiSauKaXcuv WKo8op.rjp.eva r)p,Tv, TroXXd

Se kclI iSia. r)p,cov, ene^Sr)rdjv oioaaKaXwv dirrjXXd-
yt)p.ev, ovroi p,ev SiaKei/xevwv vovv eyovrcnv "qv dv
levai em rd 8rjp.6aia epya' el Se pvryre StSacr/caAov
eiXPfxev rjp.wv avrd>v emSeZâi olKo8op.ijp.ard re
7] pvqoev i] TroAAa km p-rjoevos agia, ovrot or)
dvorjrov rjv 8r\tTOV eiri.xei.pelv roZs 8rjp,oolois epyois
kclI irapaKaXeZv dXXrjXovs eir' avrd. <f>uip,ev ravra
D opdcos Xeyeadai i) ov;
kaaa. TLavv ye.
2n. Ovkovv ovto) irdvra, rd re dXXa, ko.v el
eTTixeiprjoavres 8i)p.oot,eveiv TTa.peKaXovp.ev dXXrj-
Xovs (os iKavol larpol ovres, eTreoKeifidp,eda Srjnov
dv eyu> re oe Kal ov ip,e, Oe'pe irpos OedJv, avrds
Se 6 YiCOKpdrrjs ttu>s eêi to irpos vyleiav;
au>p.a
r) 17877 Tis dXXos Sid ^coKpar-qv dTrrjXXdyr)
voaov,
rj SovXos rj eXevOepos ; Kav eyd>, oi,p.ai, rrepl aov
erepa roiavra Iokottow /cat el p,r) rjvplaKOfj.ev 8C
E r)p,as p.rj8eva fteXrla) yeyovora ro odipa, pvryre tu>v
evcov p.ryre rd>v dorcov, p,ryre dvSpa p.ryre yvvaxKa,
irpos Aid?, a> KaAAt/cAeis, ov KarayeXaorov S.V
r)v
rfj dXrjdeta, els rooovrov dvolas eXdelv dvOputrrovs,
ware, irplv ISicorevovras TroXXd p.ev ottuis ervôfiev
Troirjoai, 7roAAd Se KaropOcooai. Kal yvp.vdo-a.adai.
Ikovcos rr)v reyy-qv, rd Xeyop,evov rovro ev rm
8r)
Trldcp tt)v Kepap,elav eTTi.xei.peZv pavBdvew Kal

,
avrovs re 8rjp,ooievei.v emxeipeZv Kal dXXovs toiov-

rovs TrapaKaXeiv; ovk dvorjrov aoi SoKei dv etvai
ovroi TTpdrreiv;
KAAA. "Ejiioiye.
That is, instead of a small pot involving little waste in
1
case of failure.
490
GORGIAS
* -*
t a
masters' guidance, and many
alone, after we had dispensed
by ourselves
with our masters,
also
"* it might, in those circumstances, be open to men of

'#' sense to enter upon public works; but if we had
#: neither a master of ourselves to point to, nor any
all,
#" only
of
buildings at ornumber worthless ones,
a
''
be
that case surely attempt
to
would senseless
it
in
,
## public works
to
in
or
invite one another take them

#
hand. Shall we agree
of
to
the correctness this
*
or
statement not
?
Yes,
to
CALL. be sure.
all
And
too with suppose, for
so
soc. the rest

',

la
:
we
of
instance, had undertaken the duties state
#
'
to
to
physicians, and were invite one another the
qualified doctors, should, presume,
as
*
York we
I
...
inquired other, you and you

of
of
of
first
w
each
I
:
me: Let see now, Heaven's name; how does

us
"'
as in
;
Socrates himself stand regards his body's health
?
to Or
has anyone else, slave free, ever had Socrates

*
a or
''' thank for ridding him

I' And also,
of
disease
I
I
?
fancy, should make the same sort inquiry about you;

of
and then, we found we had never been the cause

if
#
any
an
improvement the bodily condition

of
in
of
##
# one, stranger citizen, man woman,by Heaven,
or
or
##
be
Callicles, would truth ridiculous that men

in
not
to it
should descend such folly that, before having plenty

private practice, sometimes with indifferent results,
of
#
getting adequate
''
)
as so
Sometimes with success, and

is,
training the art, they should, the saying try

in
by starting
on
pottery wine-jar,"
to
learn and start

T ''
public practice themselves and invite others

beof
their
do
you
to to
like so? Do not think would mere

it
}
folly act thus

*
* 9)
CALL. do.
I
491
PLATO
515 3n. Nw Se', d> fieXriare dvSpcov, iirei&fj crv fiev

avros dpri dpx!) irpdrretv rd rfjs rroXecos Trpdyp,ara,
ip,e Se TtapaKaXeis Kal oVetSiêij on ov rrpdrrco,
ovk emoKeifiopLeda dXX7]Xovs, Oe'/se, KaXXiKXfjs ijSij
rivd fieXrlco rcov rroXtrcov; ecrrtv oar is
TTerrolrjKe
rrporepov Trovrjpos cbv, aSiKOS re kcu aKoXaaros kox
d<f>pcov, Sid KaAAi/cAea kclXos re Kayados yeyovev,
rj evos rj daros, rj 8ovXos r) eXevQepos ; Xeye fj.01,
B idv rls ae ravra eerd,ri, to KaAAiKAei?, ri epeis;
riva (f>TJaei,s fieXrlco TreTroirjKevai dvdpcorrov rfj
owovoiq rfj afj; oKvels drroKpivaaOai, elrtep eari
Tt epyov aov eri, ISicorevovros, Trplv 8rjp,oaieveiv
ernêipelv ;
kaaa. QiXoviKos el, u> TitoKpares.
Sn. 'AAA' ov (f>iXoviKla ye epcorco, dAA' a>?
dXrjdcos fiovX6p,evos elSevai, ovrivd rrore rportov
o'iei 8etv rroXireveadai ev rjpZv. rj dXXov rov dpa.
C em.p,eXrjor) rjpZv eXdcbv em rd rrjs rroXecos rrpdy-
p,ara, r) orrcos on fieXrurrot ol TroXZrai, cop,ev; tj
ov TToXXaKis 15S77 cbp.oXoyrJKap.ev rovro 8eu> rrpdr-
reiv rov ttoXitikov dvSpa; cbii.oXoyqKap.ev rj ov;
a.TTOKpi,vov . cbp.0X0yrjKap.ev eycb imep aov drro-
Kpivovp.ai. el roivvv rovro Set rov dyaOov dvopa.
7rapacrKevaeiv rfj eavrov rroXei, vvv /xot ava-
p,vrja6els elrre rrepl eKelvcov rcov dvopcov cov dXlyuj
rrporepov eXeyes, el en aoi hoKovaw ayadoi rroXirat
D yeyovevai, HepiKXrjs Kal K.lp,cov Kal MiAridS^s /cat
Qep.i.aroKXfjs.
KAAA. Eîoiye.
2fl. Ovkovv elrrep dyadoi, SfjXov on. eKaaros
492
GORGIAS
soc. And now, most excellent sir, since you are

yourself just entering upon a public career, and are
inviting me to do the same, and reproaching, me
for not doing it, shall we not inquire of one another :
Let us see, has Callicles ever made any of the citizens
better ? Is there one who was previously wicked,
unjust, licentious, and senseless, and has to thank
Callicles for making him an upright, honourable
man, whether stranger or citizen, bond or free ?
Tell me, if anyone examines you in these terms,
Callicles, what will you say ? What human being
will you claim to have made better by your inter
course ? Do you shrink from answering, if there
really is some work of yours in private life that can
serve as a step to your public practice ?
call. You are contentious, Socrates !
soc. No, it is not from contentiousness that I ask
you this, but from a real wish to know in what
manner you can imagine you ought to conduct your
self as one of our public men. Or can it be, then,
that you will let us see you concerning yourself with
anything else in your management of the city's
affairs than making us, the citizens, as good as
possible ? Have we not more than once already
admitted that this is what the statesman ought to
do ? Have we admitted it or not ? Answer. We
have : I will answer for you. Then if this is what
the good man ought to accomplish for his country,
recall now those men whom you mentioned a little
while ago, and tell me if you still consider that
they showed themselves good citizens Pericles
and Cimon and Miltiades and Themistocles.
call. Yes, I do.
soc. Then if they were good, clearly each of them
493
PLATO
avrcbv fieXrtovs enolet. rovs noXlras dvrl \etpovcov.

eiroiei t) ov;
kaaa. Not.
Sn. Ovkovv ore HepiKXfjs ijpxero Xeyeiv ev ra
877/1.0), êipoi;? i)oav oi ,A6t]voxoi rj ore rd reXevraXa
eXeyev;
kaaa. "Yaws.
2fl. 0i5k laws 817, d> fieXriore, dXX' dvdyKt] #c
E rwv
fjv
difioXoyrjiMevcov, elnep dyadog y iKeZvos
ttoXittjs.
kaaa. Ti
ovv 8-q;
2n. OvSev dXXd rooe (J.01. enre em rovrta, el
Xiyovrai 'Adrjvalot. 8ia IlepiKAea fieXrlovs ye-
yovevai, tt&v rovvavriov 8t,a<j)6apfjvai vtt eicelvov.
r/
ravrl yap eywye aKovco, YlepiKXea TTenoirjKevai.

'Adrjvalovs dpyovs kou SeiXovs /cat XdXovs #cai
<j>iXapyvpovs, els p.iado<f>opiav rrpairov Karaar-q-
aavra.
KAAA. Td>v to. Sir a Kareayorcjv aKoveis tovto,
a> SaWpaTej.
Sfl. 'AAAd rdSe ovKeri aKovo, dXXd otSa
cra<j)a>s kcu iyw xal ov, on rd p,ev irparrov rjv-
8ot'/Lii Ilept/<rAijs' kou oi>oep.lav alo~)(pdv Si/ctjv kwt-
avrov 'Adrjvaioi, ijvi'/ca xeipous' fjoav
<fir)(/)i.aavro
eTreior) 8e xaXol Kayadol eyeyoveoav vtt' avrov,
516 wi reXevrfj rov filov rov YIepiKXeovs, KXoTrr)v
avrov Karei/rrj(f>loavro dXiyov Se Kal Oavdrov
,
erlpvqaav, SfjXov on at? Ttovr\pov ovros.

kaaa. Ti ovv; rovrov eveKa KaKOS rp> Ilepi/cA^?;
This refers especially to the payment of dicasts or

1
jurors, introduced by Pericles in 462-1 B.C.

494
GORGIAS
was changing the citizens from worse to better.

Was this so, or not ?
call. Yes.
soc. So when Pericles began to speak before the
people, the Athenians were worse than when he
made his last speeches ?
call. Perhaps.
"
soc. Not perhaps," as you say, excellent sir ;
it follows of necessity from what we have admitted,
on the assumption that he was a good citizen.
call. Well, what then ?
soc. Nothing : but tell me one thing in addition,
-whether the Athenians are said to have become
better because of Pericles, or quite the contrary,
to have been corrupted by him. What I, for my
part, hear is that Pericles has made the Athenians
idle, cowardly, talkative, and avaricious, by starting
the system of public fees.1
call. You hear that from the folk with battered
ears,2 Socrates.
soc. Ah, but what is no longer a matter of hear
say, but rather of certain knowledge, for you as well
as for me, is that Pericles was popular at first, and
the Athenians passed no degrading sentence upon
" "
him so long as they were worse ; but as soon as
they had been made upright and honourable by

him, at the end of our Pericles' life they convicted
him of embezzlement, and all but condemned him
to death, clearly because they thought him a
rogue.
call. What then ? Was Pericles a bad man on
that account ?
1
i.e. people who show their Spartan sympathies by an
addiction to boxing ; cf. Protag. 342 b.
495
PLATO
2n."Ovojv yovv av emp,eXr]T7)s /cat Ittttojv Kai

fioiov toiovtos a>v kclkos av eSd/cet elvai, el rrapa-
Xafichv fir/ XaKrit,ovras eavrov p.rj8e Kvplrrovras
firj8e Sdxvovras d-rreheiê ravra dnavra Troiovvras
8i' dypiorrjra. r/ ov So/cet dot, kclkos etvai em-
B pêXrjrrjS oariaovv orovovv t,ov, os av napaXa^wv
rjp,epwrepa airoSei^T] dypiairepa r) TrapiXafie ; hoKel
V ov;
KAAA. Haw ye, Iva aoi âpicrw^xai.
2n. Kai rooe roivvv p,oi \dpLaai a-noKpivd-
p,evos' rrorepov /cat 6 dvOpoJiros ev rcbv t,(awv
eariv i] ov;
KAAA. Uu>s ydp ov;
Sn. Ovkovv dv9pc!)TTa>v IlepiKXfjs eTreLieXero ;
kaaa. Nat.
2n. Tt ovv; ovk ebec avrovs, d>s dpri cu/jloXo-
yovp.ev, SiKaiorepovs yeyovevai dvrl doiKarrepajv
C vtt' eKeivov, eXrtep eKeivos eTrefieXeZro avrajv
dyad 6s o>v ra rroXiriKa;
kaaa. IlaVu ye.
2n. Ovkovv ol ye St/catoi yjp,epoi, ojs e</>rj
"0(J.rjpos' av oe rl <f>rjs; ox>x ovrws;
KAAA. Nat.
2n. 'AAAd pvrjv dypiarrepovs ye avrovs dire-
<f>7]vev fj o'i'ovs rrapeXafie, Kai ravr els avrov,
ov rjKior av epovAero.
kaaa. BouAet aoi 6p.oXoyr)ao) ;
sn,. Et Sokco ye aoi dXrjdfj Xeyeiv.
D kaaa. "Eotco ravra.
817
2n. Ovkovv eXirep dypiwrepovs, dhiKcorepovs

re Kai xetpovs;
496
GORGIAS
soc. Well, at any rate a herdsman in charge of

asses or horses or oxen would be considered a bad
one for being like that if he took over animals
that did not kick him or butt or bite, and in the
result they were found to be doing all these things
out of sheer wildness. Or do you not consider any
keeper of any animal whatever a bad one, if he
turns out the creature he received tame so much
wilder than he found it ? Do you, or do you not ?
call. Certainly I do, to oblige you.
soc. Then oblige me still further by answering
this : is man also one of the animals, or not ?
call. Of course he is.
soc. And Pericles had charge of men ?
call. Yes.
soc. Well now, ought they not, as we admitted
this moment, to have been made by him more just
instead of more unjust, if he was a good statesman
while he had charge of them ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And the just are gentle, as Homer said.1
But what say you ? Is it not so ?
call. Yes.
soc. But, however, he turned them out wilder
than when he took them in hand, and that against
himself, the last person he would have wished them
to attack.
call. You wish me to agree with you ?
soc. Yes, if you consider I am speaking the truth.
call. Then be it so.
soc. And if wilder, more unjust and worse ?
1
Our text of Homer contains no such saying. The
nearest is that in Od. vi. 120, and ix. 175 ij p o'iy vftpiaral re
Kal ti.ypi.oi, ovSi Si/caioi,
" Wanton and wild are they, not
just."
VOL. V 2 K 497
PLATO
KAAA. "EoTOJ.
Sn. Owe dp'
dyados ra ttoXitlkcl HepiKXrjs
fy K rovrov rod Xoyov.
kaaa. Ov av ye <f>fjs.
' sn. Md A"
if;
oi5Se ye av d>v wpxiXoyeis.
rrdXiv ok Xeye p,oi nepl Ki'/itovos- ovk efjcDarpd-
Kiaav avrov ovtoi ovs eOepdirevev, tva avrov
Se'/ca eVtuv pvq d/couaetav rfjs (fxovrjs;
0e/xt- /cat
oro/cAea ravrd ravra e-noirjaav /cat <j>vyfj irpoa-
et,r\p,iojaav MiXridSrjv Se rov Mapa6a>vi els to
E
fidpadpov efMpaXetv ei/rqfaaavro /cat ei (Mr/ Bid
,
rdv irpvraviv, eveireaev dv; Kairoi ovtoi,
el
qaav dyadol, cos ov <f>f)S, ovk dv irore
dvSpes
ravra eiraoxov. ovkovv ol ye dyadol tjvioôi
tear dpxds p,ev ovk eKmirrovaiv e/c ru>v evya>v,
erreiSdv Se depaTrevacoai rovs Zttttovs /cat avrol
dpelvovs yevatvrai 7jvLo\oi., ror eKmirrovatv ovk
eon ravr ovr' ev ijvioêi'a out' ev dXXoj epyco
oiSevl- 8oKet aoi;
rj
kaaa. Ovk ep.oiye.

2n. 'AXrjOeZs dpa, (Ls eoiKev, ol ep.Trpoadev
517 Adyot rjoav, on ovSeva lately lo/xev dvopa dyadov
yeyovora rd rroXiriKa ev rfj8e rfj noXei. av Se
(LfxoXoyeis rd)v ye vvv ovSeva, rwv pbevroi ep,-
irpoaOev, Kal -npoeiXov rovrovs rovs dvBpas' ovtoi,
laov rots vvv ovres, atare,
ej
Se dve<f)dvr)oav
el
odroi p-qropes rjaav, ovre rfj dXr/divfj prjTopiKrj

expdwro ov yap dv efjeneaov ovre rfj KoXaKiKjj.
kaaa. 'AAAd p,evroi ttoXXov ye Set, ZoS
cS
498
GORGIAS
call. Be it so.
soc. Then Pericles was not a good statesman, by
this argument.
call. You at least say not.
soc. And you too, I declare, by whatyou admitted.
And now about Cimon once more, tell me, did not
the people whom he tended ostracize him in order
that they might not hear his voice for ten years ?
And Themistocles, did they not treat him in just
the same way, and add the punishment of exile ?
And Miltiades, the hero of Marathon, they sentenced
to be flung into the pit, and had it not been for the
president, in he would have gone. And yet these
men, had they been good in the way that you
describe them, would never have met with such a
fate. Good drivers, at any rate, do not keep their
seat in the chariot at their first race to be thrown
out later on, when they have trained their teams
and acquired more skill in driving ! This never occurs
either in charioteering or in any other business ; or
do you think it does ?
call. No, I do not.
soc. So what we said before, it seems, was true,
that we know of nobody who has shown himself a
good statesman in this city of ours. You admitted
there was nobody among those of the present day,
but thought there were some amongst those of
former times, and you gave these men the preference.
But these we have found to be on a par with ours
of the present day ; and so, if they were orators,
they employed neither the genuine art of rhetoric
else they would not have been thrown out nor the
flattering form of it.
call. But still there can be no suggestion, Socrates,
499
PLATO
Kpares, irore Tiff rcov vvv epya roiavra epyd-

p.r)
I B crrjTai, ola tovtcov os fiovXet elpyaarai.
in. 2 8ai.fi.6vie, ouS' eyco ipeyco rovrovs tos
ye Smkovovs etvai iroXecos, dXXd poi SoKOvm
rcov ye vvv SiaKOVLKcorepot, yeyovivat /cat /xaAAov
otol re eKTTopit,ew rfj iroXei cov eireOvpei.- dAAd
yap perapi/Sdlêiv ras eiri.dvp.Cas Kal p,i) eiri-
rpertew, Treidovres Kal j9iad/xei'oi em tovto, odev
epeXXov apeivovs eaeadai ol TroXirai, cos eiros
C eliretv, ov8ev tovtcov Sieêpov eKelvoi- onep fxovov
epyov earlv ayaOov ttoXLtov. vavs 8e Kal ret'^Tj
Kal vecopia Kal aXXa ttoXXol roiavra Kal eyco o~oi
opoXoyw heivorepovs etvai eKeivovs tovtcov k-
Ttop'ilfiiv. itpay pa ovv yeXolov rroiovpev eyco re
Kai av ev tois Xoyois' iv navrl yap rco xpovcp,
ov oiaAeyopeua, ovoev iravopeua eis to avro aei
irepicjjepopevoi Kal dyvoowres aW-qXcov o n Xe-
yopev. eyco yovv ae TroXXaKis otpai cbpoXoyrj-
Kevai Kal iyvcoKevai, cos dpa Sltttj avrrj Tiff r/
D irpaypareia eon Kai rtepi to acopa Kai rrepi rqv
i/jvxrjv, Kal 17 pev irepa Sia/covi/cr) eariv, fj Swarov
etvai eKiropiêiv , eav pev neivfj to. acop.ara rjpcov,
oi/rla, eav Se 8ufifj, irord, eav 8e piycp, Ipidria,
arpcbpara, virohrfpara, dXX' cov ep\erai acop.ara
els em.8vp.lav Kal eêm-r^Se? 001 Sid rcov avrcdv
cIkovcov Xeyco, tva paov KarapddrjS- tovtcov yap
TropioTiKov etvai rj KairrjXov ovra rj epvnopov r\
8-qp.iovpyov tov avrcov tovtcov, oitottoiov rj oi/io-
E ttolov r) vcf>avrrp> oKvroropov 77 OKVToSetfiov,
rj
ovoev davpaarov eariv ovra toiovtov 86ai Kal
500
GORGIAS
that any of the present-day men has ever achieved

anything like the deeds of anyone you may choose
amongst those others.
soc. My admirable friend, neither do I blame the
latter, at least as servants of the state ; indeed, I
consider they have shown themselves more service
able than those of our time, and more able to
procure for the city the things she desired. But in
diverting her desires another way instead of com
plying with them in persuading or compelling her
people to what would help them to be better
they were scarcely, if at all, superior to their
successors ; and that is the only business of a good
citizen. But in providing ships and walls and arsenals,
and various other things of the sort, I do grant you
that they were cleverer than our leaders. Thus you
and I are doing an absurd thing in this discussion :
for during all the time that we have been debating
we have never ceased circling round to the same
point and misunderstanding each other. I at all
events believe you have more than once admitted
and decided that this management of either body or
soul is a twofold affair, and that on one side it is a
menial service, whereby it is possible to provide
meat for our bodies when they are hungry, drink
when thirsty, and when they are cold, clothing,
bedding, shoes, or anything else that bodies are
apt to desire : I purposely give you the same illustra
tions, in order that you may the more easily com
prehend. For as to being able to supply these
things, either as a tradesman or a merchant or a
manufacturer of any such actual things baker
or cook or weaver or shoemaker or tanner it is
no wonder that a man in such capacity should appear
501
PLATO
avTW Kal tois dXXois depanevTr/v elvai owfiaTos,

TTCLVTl TU> /MTj eloOTl, OTl eOTl TIS 770.00, TaUTaj
aWaas re Kal laTpiKrj,
8rj
T^Xvri yvpLvaoTiKr) 77
ru> ovti earl aioîaros depaireia, -qvnep Kal irpoo-

77/cei tovtwv dpxeiv Traawv twv Teyywv Kal
Xprjadai toZs tovtwv epyois Sia to elhevai,
5
Tl XpTjOTOV Kal TTOVTjpOV OITIWV
TWV TTOTWV
t)
518 eorlv els dpeTTjv aAAay irdoas
8'
awp.aTOS, tcls
Tavras dyvoeiv Kai ravras p-ev SovXo-
St)
Sid
rrpeTreis re Kal BiaKOViKas Kal dveXevOepovs elvai
irepl au>fiaros Trpayp,aTeiav, rds aAAa? Teyyas,
tyjv yvfjbvaaTiKrjV Kal larpiKr/v Kara, to BiKaiov
SeoTTolvas elvai tovtwv. TavTa. ovv TavTa oti
earn Kal irepl >fyvyr\v, totc \iev /xoi SoKeZs piavddveiv
OTl Xeyw, Kal SpaXoyeis ai? elSws o ti eyw Xeyw
rjKeis 8e dAiyov voTepov Xeywv, oti dvdpwrroi
koXoI KayaOol yeyovaai iroXirai ev rrj iroXei, Kal
eneiodv eyw epwTw oiTives, SoKeis p-oi 6p.oio-
B
totouj npoTeiveadai dvdpconovs Trepl ra iroXi-

TiKa, wa-rrep av Trepl tcl yvpwaariKa
el
e/xou
epioTcovTos oiTives ayadoi yeyovaaiv eiai aco-
rj
,
p,drwv BepairevTai, eXeyes fioi navv airovSd^cov,

Qeapiwv dproKOTTOS /cai M.idaii(os o ttjv dtfio-
6
TToaav ovyyeypacfxhs ttjv TdiKeXiKr/v Kal Sa/)aju./3o?

KaTrr/Xos, on oStoi 6avp,daioi yeyovaai aw-
6
p.drwv Qepairevrai, [lev dpTOVS 6av/.iaoTovs

6
C
napaaKevd^cov, Se otfiov, he olvov. av

6
6
'io<t>s
ooi eXeyov eyw oti avdpcone,
el
ovv rjyavaKTeis,
eirateis ovhev Trepl yvp,vao~riKrjs' BiaKovovs fJ.oi
Xeyeis Kal emOvp.iwv TrapaaKevaaras avdpwirovs,
ovk enatovTas KaXov Kayadov ovoev Trepl avrcov,
oi, dv ovtw TV\waiv, ip,TrXr]oavTes Kal rra)(y
502
GORGIAS
to himself and his neighbours to be a minister

of the body ; to every one, in fact, who is not aware
that there is besides all these an art of gymnastics
and medicine which really is, of course, ministration
to the body, and which actually has a proper claim
to rule over all those arts and to make use of their
works, because it knows what is wholesome or
harmful in meat and drink to bodily excellence,
whereas all those others know it not ; and hence it is
that, while those other arts are slavish and menial
and illiberal in dealing with the body, gymnastics
and medicine can fairly claim to be their mistresses.
Now, that the very same is the case as regards the
soul you appear to me at one time to understand to
be my meaning, and you admit it as though you
knew what I meant ; but a little later you come and
tell me that men have shown themselves upright
and honourable citizens in our city, and when I ask
you who, you seem to me to be putting forward
if,
men of exactly the same sort in public affairs ; as
on my asking you who in gymnastics have ever
been or now are good trainers of the body, you
"
were to tell me, in all seriousness, Thearion, the
baker, Mithaecus, the author of the book on Sicilian
cookery, Sarambus, the vintner these have shown
themselves wonderful ministers of the body the
;
first providing admirable loaves, the second tasty

dishes, and the third wine." Now perhaps you
"
would be indignant should then say to you Sir,
I
you know nothing about gymnastics servants you

;
tell me of, and caterers to appetites, fellows who have

no proper and respectable knowledge of them, and
who perad venture will first stuff and fatten men's
503
PLATO
vavres ra au>p,ara row avdpdmcov, eTrawovfievoi

inr' avrcbv, npoaarroXovaiv auraV /cat ras dpxo-ias
D adpxas' ol 8' av 8t' aTreipiav ov roiis ecmaivras
aiTidoovTcu ru)v voowv alriovs etvat /cat tt}s
dTTofioAfjsrajv apxaicuv oapKwv, dAA' ot av avrois
rv\0J<n rare napovres /cat ovpiôvXevovres n,
orav avrots tjkt] Tore irXrjopôvr] voaov <f>4-
8r)
rj
povaa av^ya) varepov xpovtp, are avev rov vyieivov
yeyovvla, tovtovs alridaovrai, /cat tpeôvai. /cat
KdKov Tt TTOL-qaovaw, av oloi r woi, rovs Se
TTpoTepovs cueivovs /cat atTtouy raiv /ca/caV eyKco-
/cat av vvv, KaAAi/cAet?, ofioiorarov
d>
fxiaoovcn,.
E
rovrai epyd^rf ey/cca/Mtdêt? dvdpcoirovs, ot tovtovs

eloriaKaaiv eva>xovvres cSv etredvpiovv. /cat (j>aai
p,eydXrjv tt)v ttoXiv TreTroirjKevai avrovs' otl Se
oi'Set /cat vttovXos cart 8t' eKelvovs rouy TraAatous',
519 ovk aloddvovrai. avev yap craxf>poo-vvr]s /cat St-
Kaioavvrjs At/teVaw /cat veojpiojv /cat TetâV /cat
<f>6pa>v /cat rotovrwv <j)Avapt,a>v jU7rewArj/caox TTyr
7rdAw orav ow eAfljj KaraftoXr] aunj ttJs aaOe-
17
veias, rovs Tore napovras alridaovrai, ovftfiov-

Xovs, e/ttoro/cAea Se /cat Kt/xawa /cat ITept/cAea
ey/caijataaouai, tow alriovs ratv KaKcbv aov
oe lows emArji/iovTai., edv p,rj evAafifj, /cat rov
ifiov eralpov 'AA/ct^tdSou, orav /cat ra dpâta
Trpo? ot? eKTrjoavro, ovk alriwv
B
7TpoCTa7roAAuaifft
ovrcov ra>v KaKcov dAA taai? awairiwv. /catroi
eycoye dvoryrov Trpayfta /cat iw
opa) ytyvo/xevov
/cat aKovui tojv iraXaLcbv di/SpcDi" Trept. aladd-
vofiai ydp, orav ttoXls rivd rutv ttoXltlkwv
r)
504
GORGIAS
bodies to the tune of their praises, and then cause

them to lose even the flesh they had to start with ;
and these in their turn will be too ignorant to cast
the blame of their maladies and of their loss of
original weight upon their regalers, but any people
who chance to be by at the time and offer them
some advice just when the previous stuffing has
brought, after the lapse of some time, its train of
disease, since it was done without regard to what
is wholesome these are the people they will
accuse and chide and harm as far as they can,
while they will sing the praises of that former crew
who caused the mischief. And you now, Callicles,
are doing something very similar to this : you belaud
men who have regaled the citizens with all the good
cheer they desired. People do say they have made
the city great ; but that it is with the swelling of an
imposthume, due to those men of the former time,
this they do not perceive. For with no regard for
temperance and justice they have stuffed the city
with harbours and arsenals and walls and tribute
and suchlike trash ; and so whenever that access of
debility comes they will lay the blame on the
advisers who are with them at the time, and belaud
Themistocles and Cimon and Pericles, who caused all
the trouble ; and belike they will lay hold of you,
if you are not on your guard, and my good friend
Alcibiades, when they are losing what they had
originally as well as what they have acquired, though
you are not the authors, except perhaps part-authors,
of the mischief. And yet there is a senseless thing
which I see happening now, and hear of, in connexion
with the men of former times. For I observe that
whenever the state proceeds against one of her
505
PLATO
avhpujv doiKovvra,
p.eraxeipt^rp-ai dyava- .
<ltg
ktowtcov Kox oxerXiaôvratv <Ls Sewd irdcrxovm-

rcoXXd. koX dyadd rrpr ttoXiv TreTroirjKores apa
dSlKCOS VTT aVTTJS aVoAAwTCU, (OS O TOVTOiV
' Xdyog.' to he oXov tfievhos eari- Trpoordrrjs ydp
C/\
TTOAOiS
*
OVO
>o \
av
f
lff TTOTe
so/
aOLKOJS
> /\
CLITOAoiTO
r i
VTT
rijs Kivhwevei ydp
tfs
avrrjs iroXeats TrpoorareZ-
ravrov elvai, oooi re ttoXitlkoi TTpoarroiovv-rai
elvai KaX ocroi oo<f>i.arai. koX yap ol oo<purral,
rdXXa ao(f>ol ovres, rovro dronov epydt,ovrai
npa.yp.a- cf>d(jKOvres ydp dperijg SihdoKoXoi eivai
TToXXaKis Karr/yopovot rGw padrp-wv, ay dhiKovcri
o<f>as
avrovs, rovs re ptodovs airoorepovvres Kai
dXXrjv X"*-PLV OVK dnooiSovTes, ev iradovres vtt'
D avrGiV /cat rovrov rov Xoyov ri av dXoyutrepov
eltj npdypa, dvdpwnovs dyaOovs al biKaiovi
yevopevovs eaipedevra? pev doixlav vtto tov
,
SioaaKaXov, a\6vras ok hiKaioovvqv dhiKeZv rovrtp

,
ovk exovoiv; ov hoKeZ aoi rovro arorrov elvai,

8
eraZpe; dXrjOcas SrjprjyopeZv pe -qvayKaoas,

<L
a>s
KaAAi/cAei?, ovk eOeXaiv dnoKpivecrOaL.
tS
oj r
S\v w
t *
y
ct
\
/
/
ovk av olos
/
*
ecTjs Aeyeiv, pvq

o
tls ool aTTOKpivoiTo;

2n. "Ecu/ax ye- iw avxyovs relvoi rcbv
E
yovv
Xoywv, erreih-q p.01 ovk eOeXeis dnoKpiveaOaC
dXX', eiire irpos OtAi'ou, ov SoKeZ
t5
'yaOe, croi
dXoyov elvai dyadov <f>doKOvra ireTroirjKevai rivd
pep(f>eodai rovro), onv^' eavrov dya96s ye-
yovcos re Kal d>v eireira irovrjpos eoriv;
KAAA. "Eîoiye So/cet.
506
GORGIAS
statesmen as a wrongdoer, they are indignant and

protest loudly against such monstrous treatment :
after all their long and valuable services to the state
they are unjustly ruined at her hands, so they
protest. But the whole thing is a lie ; since there
is not a single case in which a ruler of a city could
ever be unjustly ruined by the very city that he
rules. For it is very much the same with pretenders
to statesmanship as with professors of sophistry.
The sophists, in fact, with all their other accomplish
ments, act absurdly in one point : claiming to be
teachers of virtue, they often accuse their pupils of
doing them an injury by cheating them of their
fees and otherwise showing no recognition of the
good they have done them. Now what can be more
unreasonable than this plea ? That men, after they
have been made good and just, after all their in
justice has been rooted out by their teacher and
replaced by justice, should be unjust through some
thing that they have not ! Does not this seem to
you absurd, my dear friend ? In truth you have
forced me to make quite a harangue, Callicles, by
refusing to answer.
call. And you are the man who could not speak
unless somebody answered you ?
soc. Apparently I can. Just now, at any rate, I
am rather extending my speeches, since you will not
answer me. But in the name of friendship, my
good fellow, tell me if you do not think it un
reasonable for a man, while professing to have
made another good, to blame him for being wicked
in spite of having been made good by him and still
being so ?
call. Yes, I do.
507
PLATO
2n. Ovkow aKOveis roiavra XeyovTaiv twv

<f>aoKOVTa>v iraioeveiv dvdpamovs els aperrjv;
520 KAAA. 'Eycoye- dAAa tl av Xeyois avdpornwv
nepiovSevos dtct)v;
2n. Ti 8' av -nepl eKeivatv Xeyois, ot SdoKOvres
TTpoeordvai rrjs -noXecos Kal emp,eXeio6ai, ottois
(Ls êXriaTrj earai, irdXiv avrrjs Karqyopovcnv ,
orav rv-)(coaiv, cos ttovt] por aTT]S ; olei Tt hi.aSe.peiv
tovtovs eKeivow; ravrov, w paKapi , earl ao<f>iOTr)s
Kal prpoip, T) eyyvs ti Kal napairX-qoiov, utcmep
eya> eAeyov irpos llatAov av be oi ayvoiav to puev
B TtdyKaXov ti oiei eivai, ttjv prjTopucrp*, tov be
KaraSpoveis rfj oe dXrjdelq. koXXiov eari oo<f>i-
arucrj prjropiKrjs oaanrep vop.o8eTt.icr] oiKaoTuci)s
Kal yvfivaoTiKrj larpiKfjs' povois o' eyarye Kal
(pp.'riv Tots Srjprjyopois re Kal aoiiarais ovk
ey\(xypeiv pep<j>eodai tovtoj tu> -npayp.aTi, avrol
o
naihevovoiv , d>s Ttov-qpov eoriv els aids, 77 toi
aurai Aoyoj tovtoj dp.a Kal eavrcov KaT-rjyopeZv,
ori oiSev ojSeXrjKaaiv ovs Aaoiv <l><f>eXeiv. ov%
ovtcos exec;
C KAAA. Udvv ye.
2fi. Kat npoeoBai ye orjirov tt)v evepyeoiav avev
piodov, oj? to etKOS, povois tovtois evexcbpei,
einep dXrjOrj eXeyov. dXXrjv p.ev yap evepyeoiav
tis evepyerTjdeis, oiov ra%vs yevopevos old TraiSo-
Tpifirpi, lows av dTToarep-qaeie tt)v )(dpiv, el -npooiTO
avrcp 6 Trai$OTpij3r)s Kai p,r) ow6ep,evos avrw
piodov on pdXiora dpa peTaoioovs tov Taôuy
D Xapfidvoi to dpyvpiov ov yap ttj /SpaSuTJjri,
*508
GORGIAS
soc. Well, and you hear such things said by those
who profess to give men education in virtue ?
call. I do ; but what is one to say of such worthless
people ?
soc. And what is one to say of those who, professing

to govern the state and take every care that she be
as good as possible, turn upon her and accuse her,
any time it suits them, of being utterly wicked ?
Do you see any difference between these men and
the others ? Sophist and orator, my estimable
friend, are the same thing, or very much of a piece,
as I was telling Polus ; but you in your ignorance
think the one thing, rhetoric, a very fine affair, and
despise the other. Yet in reality sophistic is a
finer thing than rhetoric by so much as legislation
is finer than judicature, and gymnastic than medicine:
in fact, for my own part, I always regarded public
speakers and sophists as the only people who have
no call to complain of the thing that they themselves
educate, for its wickedness towards them ; as other
wise they must in the same words be also charging
themselves with having been of no use to those
whom they say they benefit. Is it not so ?
call. Certainly.
soc. And they alone, I presume, could most
likely afford to give away their services without fee,
if their words were true. For when a man has
received any other service, for example, if he has
acquired a fast pace from a trainer's lessons, he
might possibly cheat him of his due if the trainer
freely offered himself and did not stipulate for a fee
to be paid down by the other as nearly as possible
at the moment when he imparted to him the fast
pace he required ; for it is not through a slow pace,
509
PLATO
otfiai, dSiKovaiv ol avdpamoi, aXX' dSiKiq.' rj
yap;
KAAA. Nat.
sn. Ovkovv el tis avro tovto a<j>aipet, ttjv
aSiKiav, ov8ev 8eiv6v avrut p.rynore ahucqBfj, dAAa
p.6vw da<j>aXes rarjrrjv ttjv evepyeaiav irpoearBai,
elrtep ra ovri SvvaiTO tis dyadovs rtoieiv. ovx
ovrtas;
KAAA. <&r)p.l.
2fl. Aid ravr' dpa, ws eoi/ce, Taj p.evdAAaj
avp.ôvXds ovp-fZovXeveiv XapfSavovra. apyvpiov,
olov oi.Ko8op.las rrepi r) rcov aXXatv TtyyGiv, ovSev
alcrxpov.
E kaaa. *Eoi/c ye.
Sfl. Ylepl 81 ye raurqs Trjs rrpdêais, ovriv' dv
Tis Tponov <hs /31Xtiotos eirj Kal dpiara Trjv avTov
ohelav 8iolkoi r) ttoXiv, alo~xpov vevop.iara.1 fj/fj
<f>dvai avp.ôvXeveiv , lav p.r) tis avru) apyvpiov
81.810. rj yap;
KAAA. Nai.
2fl. AfjXov yap on tovto aiTiov eariv, on. p,6vrj
avrq tcov evepyeaiuw tov eS iradovra Imdvp-elv
rroiel ai>T ev Troieiv, ware koXov 8oKel to 0-qp.eiov
etvai,el eS rroirjaas Tavrrjv ttjv evepyeaiav ovt'
ev TrelaeTar el Se p,rj, ov. eari Taura ovtojs
eyovTa;
521 kaaa. "Eotiv.
2n. 'Em TTOTepav ovv p.e rrapaKaXeis tt)v Bepa-
Trelav Trjs rroXeais, 8i6piaov p.or Trjv tov 81a-
p.d)(eadai 'AOrjvalois, ottws d>s JUXtiotoi eaovTai,
<bs laTpov, rj cu? SiaKovrjaovra Kal trpos XLPlv
op.tXrjaovra ; TaXrjdrj p.01 elne, J> KaAAi'/cAets*
510
GORGIAS
I conceive, that men act unjustly, but through

injustice ; is it not ?
call. Yes.
soc. And so whoever removes this particular
thing, injustice, need never have a fear of being
unjustly treated ; this benefit alone may be freely
bestowed without risk, granted that one really had
the power of making people good. Is it not so ?
call. I agree.
soc. Then this, it seems, is the reason why there
is no disgrace in taking money for giving every
other kind of advice, as about building or the rest
of the arts.
call. Itdoes seem so.
soc. But about this business
of finding the way
to be as good as possible, and of managing one's
own household or city for the best, it is recognized
to be a disgrace for one to decline to give advice
except for a payment in cash, is it not ?
call. Yes.
soc. The reason evidently being that this is the
only sort of service that makes the person so served
desire to do one in return ; and hence it is felt to
be a good sign when this service that one has done is
repaid to one in kind ; but when this is not so, the
contrary is felt. Is the case as I say ?
call. It is.
soc. Then please specify to which of these two
ministrations to the state you are inviting me
that of struggling hard, like a doctor, with the
Athenians to make them as good as possible, or
that of seeking to serve their wants and humour
them at every turn ? Tell me the truth, Callicles ;
511
PLATO
Si'/cato? yap el, oto-nep Tjpa> Trapprjmdêodai Trpos

ep.e, SiareXeZv a voeZs Xeyaiv /cat vvv ev /cat yev-
vaiats elite.
KAAA. Aeyco roLWV on ojs ouaKovqaovra.
B 2fl. KoAa/ceucrovra dpa [xe, w yewaioTare,
irapaKaXeZs .
KAAA. Ei aoi Mvoov ye rjoiov KaXeZv, cS Sti-
Kpares' el fir) ravrd ye irorfcreis
cbs
2n. M17 enrrjs 8 77oAAa/aj elprjKas, on arroKreveZ
fie 6 fiovX6p,evos , Iva p.rj av /cat eycb eliroj, on
TTOvrjpos ye dyaBov ovra- /xtjS'
d>v on axf>at,prjo-eTau.
eav n exoi, wa p,rj av eyat etna) on aAA a<peAo-
fxevos oi>x eêi, 5 n
xP1l<jeTal avrols, aAA' warrep
fie aSt/cco? aêiXero, ovrw /cat Xa/Scbv doltccos
Xpyjo-erai., ei 8e dSi'/ccoy, alaxp&s, ei ok alcrxpu>s,
KaKcHs.
kaaa. "Qs noi So/ceiy, oi Yi&Kpares, marevew
jU.iyS' av ev Tovrcov TtaBeZv, ojs oIklov eKiroSchv /cat
ovk dv elaaxOels eis oiKaor-qpiov viro iravv locos
pwxdrjpov dvdpwTrov /cat <f>avXov.
SO. 'Avorjros dpa el/jd, o> KaAAi/cAety, ojs
dXrjdws, el oto/nat ev rfjSe rf\ iroXei ovnvovv
p,rj
dv, o n tvxoi, rovro iradeZv. Tooe p,evroi ev olS'
on, elaioi els SiKaoTr/piov nepl tovtojv
edvirep
twos KivSwevajv o av Xeyeis, novrjpos rls /xe eorai
D 6 eladyojv ovoels yap dv XP7]0"7"^ fjLr) dSiKovvr'
dvdpcoTTOV elaraydyof /cat ovoev ye arorrov el dvo-
1
The Mysians, like the Carians (c/. Euthyd. 285 c), were
regarded as the lowest of the low. Callicles heatedly
taunts Socrates with putting the matter in its worst light.
512
GORGIAS
for it is only right that, as you began by speaking

to me frankly, you should continue to tell me what
you think. So now speak out like a good, generous
man.
call. I say then, the way of seeking to serve
them.
soc. So it
is to a flatterer's work, most noble sir,
that you invite me ?
call. Work for a mean Mysian,1 if you prefer the
name, Socrates ; for unless you do as I say
soc. Do not tell me, what you have so often
repeated, that anyone who pleases will put me to
death, lest I on my side should have to tell you
that it will be a villain killing a good man ; nor that
anyone may strip me of whatever I have, lest I
should have to say in my turn : Well, but when he
has stripped me, he will not know what use to make
of his spoil, but as he stripped me unjustly so will
he use his spoil unjustly, and if unjustly, foully, and
if foully, ill.
call. It quite strikes me, Socrates, that you
believe not one of these troubles could befall you, as
though you dwelt out of the way, and could never
be dragged into a law court by some perhaps utterly
paltry rascal.
soc. Then I am a fool, Callicles, in truth,
do if I
not suppose that in this city anyone, whoever he
was, might find himself, as luck should have it, in
any sort of plight. Of one thing, however, I am
"
sure that if ever I am brought before the court

and stand in any such danger as you mention, it
will be some villain who brings me there, for no
honest man would prosecute a person who had done
no wrong ; and it would be no marvel if I were put
vol. v 2 l 513
PLATO
ddvoipi. jSouAet trot enrco St o ri ravra npoa-

So/ca>;
kaaa. Udvv ye.
2n. Olpai per' oXlywv 'Adrjvalwv, tva pr) eiircu
povos, emxeipelv rrj cos aXt]6cos ttoAitiktj re^vr/ fat
Trpdrreiv ra 7roAiTt/ca p,6vos rcbv vvv are ovv ov
nposX-Plv Xeycov rovs Xoyovs ovs Xeyco eKaarore,
dAAd npos ro fieXriarov, ov npos to tjSiotov, kcu
ovk edeXcov ttolsIv a av napawels, ra Kopifid ravra,
E ov% eco o ti auroy Se
Xeyco ev rep SiKaaryjpiop. 6
poi, 17/cei Xoyos, ovnep npos IlajAoj' eXeyov Kpivov-
pai yap cos ev TraiSt'oi? larpos av Kpivono Kanqyo-
povvros oiftonoiov. oKonei yap, ri av anoXoyolro
6 roiovros dvdpwnos ev rovrois Xr](j>dels, el avrov
Karrjyopoi rts Xeycov on d> TraiSes, noXXd vp.ds
/cat Kara 6'Se eipyaurai avrjp /cat airovs, /cat tovs
vecordrovs ipcov ot,a<f>6elpei repveov re /cat xdcov,
522 xai lo~xyaivcov /cat nviyoov anopelv noiel, niKporara
nebpara 8i8ovs xal neivrjv Kal Sufiijv dvayicd^cov,
ovx cbonep eyeb noXXd /cat ijSea /cat TravToSaTra
TjixLôvv vpas' ti av otet ev rovrw rep /ca/cai
larpov eyew el-new;
dnoXrj(f>devTa r) el elnoi ri)v
dXrfieiav, ori ravra ndvra eyco enoiovv, u> naiSes,
vyieivws, onoaov otei av dvafiorjaai rovs towvtovs
St/cacn-a? ; ov peya;
KAAA. "locos' oteaOai ye XP1!-
Sn. Ovkovv otet ev ndarf anopia av avrov
B exeadai, o ti ^pr) elneZv;
kaaa. Yldw ye.
1
Socrates retorts the phrase of Euripides, which Callicles
applied (above, 486 c) to philosophic debate, upon the practical
pursuits which Callicles recommended.
514
GORGIAS
to death. Would you like me to tell you my reason

for expecting this ?
call. Do, by all means.
soc. I think I am one of few, not to say the only
one, in Athens who attempts the true art of
statesmanship, and the only man of the present
time who manages affairs of state : hence, as the
speeches that I make from time to time are not
aimed at gratification, but at what is best instead
of what is most pleasant, and as I do not care to
" "
deal in these pretty toys x that you recommend,
I shall have not a word to say at the bar. The same
case that I made out to Polus will apply to me ; for
I shall be like a doctor tried by a bench of children
on a charge brought by a cook.2 Just consider what
defence a person like that would make at such a
pass, if the prosecutor should speak against him thus :
" Children, this fellow has done you all a great deal
of personal mischief, and he destroys even the
youngest of you by cutting and burning, and starves
and chokes you to distraction, giving you nasty
bitter draughts and forcing you to fast and thirst ;
not like me, who used to gorge you with abundance
of nice things of every sort." What do you suppose
a doctor brought to this sad pass could say for
himself ? Or if he spoke the truth " All this I
"
did, my boys, for your health how great, think
you, would be the outcry from such a bench as that ?
A loud one, would it not ?
call. I daresay : one must suppose so.
soc. Then you suppose he would be utterly at a
loss what to say ?
call. Quite so.
Cf. 464 d.
2
515
PLATO
2C Totovrov fievroi Kal eydi 018a ori rrddos

Tiddoifxi dv elaeXdwv els 8iKaart]ptov . ovre yap
fjSovas as eKTrenopiKa ea> avroZs Xeyeiv, as ovroi
evepyeaias Kal (I><peXeias voaltftvaiv , ey6eipeiv d-nopeZv iroiovvra,
fj rovs Trpeoftvrepovs xaKTfyopelv Xeyovra iriKpovs
Xoyovs rj iSt'a fj 8t]p,oaia, ovre ro dXrfOes ea>
elneZv, Sri ndvra ravra eyd> Xeyut, /cat
Si/catco?
C irpdrro) ro vp.erepov rovro, avSpes Sixaoral,
8-q
<L
ovre aXXo ov8ev ware laws, o ri av rv^w, rovro
jreiaouai.
KAAA. AoKel ovv aoi, to YiWKpares, KaXais eyeiv
dvdpcoTros rroXei ovrco Sta/cei/xevo?
ev xai aovvaros
wv eavrcp fiorjdeZv;
2fl. Ei KaAAt-
<L
eKeZvo ye ev avru> virdpxot-,
kXcis,
el
ai) TroXXaKis (LfioXoyrfoas' peftorjdrfKibs
o
euj avrcp, p.r)re irepl dvupibrrovs fi~qre vepl deovs

J)
aoiKOV fxrjh'ev firjre eipr]K<bs pvfyre eipyaaaevos
.
avrrj ydp ris
fSorfdeia eavrw TroXXaKis rjpuv wp,oX6-
yrjrai Kpariart] eivai. ei p,kv ow ep.e ris eêXeyXpi
ravTTjv rf/v ôrjdeiav dovvarov ovra epiavrw Kal
dXXcp fiorjdelv, alaxvvoifirjv dv Kal ev rroXXoZs Kal
ev dXiyois eijeXeyxopevos wai fiovos vvo p.6vov, Kal
81a ravrrjv r-qv aSvvafiiav dTTodvrjOKOifii, dyava-
el
KrolrjV dv
el
Se KoXaKiKrjs prfropiKijs eVSei'a

reXevrcpTfV eyutye, eS 018a on paStcos loots dv px
<f>epovra rdv ddvarov. avro p.ev yap ro drroOvrf-
E
aKeiv ovoels <f>of3eZrai, oaris p.fj Travrdrraaiv dX6-

yiaros re Kal dvavopos eari, ro Se doiKeZv (pofteirar
516
GORGIAS
soc. Such, however, I am sure would be my own

fate if I were brought before the court. For not
only shall I have no pleasures to plead as having
been provided by me which they regard as services
and benefits, whereas I
envy neither those who
provide them nor those for whom they are provided
but if anyone alleges that I either corrupt the
younger men by reducing them to perplexity, or
revile the older with bitter expressions whether in
private or in public, I shall be unable either to tell
"
the truth and say It is on just grounds that I
say all this, and it is your interest that I serve
"
thereby, gentlemen of the jury or to say any
thing else ; and so I daresay any sort of thing, as
luck may have it, will befall me.
call. Then do you think, Socrates, that a man in
such a case and with no power of standing up for
himself makes a fine figure in a city ?
soc. Yes, if he had that one resource, Callicles,
which you have repeatedly admitted ; if he had
stood up for himself by avoiding any unjust word
or deed in regard either to men or to gods. For this
has been repeatedly admitted by us to be the most
valuable kind of self-protection. Now if I were
convicted of inability to extend this sort of protection
to either myself or another, I should be ashamed,
whether my conviction took place before many or
few, or as between man and man ; and if that
inability should bring about my death, I should be
sorely vexed : but if I came to my end through a
lack of flattering rhetoric, I am quite sure you
would see me take my death easily. For no man
fears the mere act of dying, except he be utterly
irrational and unmanly ; doing wrong is what one
517
PLATO
ToAAw yap dvkmudrov yeuovta Tiju hux)y
els
"Auov ddukodat Tavrov axatov kakw otiv.
s
Tobro oiros xel, flla
8&
8ow}\et, ool yd,
et
Ayov A#at.
ye
KAAA. 'AAA'treitep kai tAAa tpavas,
scal touro Tpavov.
<n. "Akove 8.j, baoi, udAa kaAo Ayov,
y
uv jyfon ubov,
dis
o
yd oiual, yd,
B
Ayov
djs dAq6 yp vta Got Aga, uAAao Myev.

diotep yp "Oumpos Myet, 8teveiuavro Ty dpx)
|
Zeus kai IIogetv kai IIAorov, net0)
d
d
Tapd Tob Tatps TrapAaBov.
iv
obv vuos 66e
Tepi dv6pditov ti Kpvov, kal dei kal viv
rt
&orw 6eois, Tv dv6ptov Tv uv Bukaia's
v
Tv 8tov 8veM6vta kai joios, teiv televrijam,
el
eis uakdpov viaows dTudvta oiketv
v
tom
8
8auova kts kakw, Tv dikos kai d6a's

Tijs Tiges kal ikms beguoriptov,
to
Te
6
els
6)
TapTapov kaRobotv, ival.

8
Towrov Buka
gral tri Kpvov kai rt veoatl Toff Alds thy
dpx.jv xovros govtes joav 6vrov, kelyn
Ti
jupg. 8tkovres uAAotev teNevrv. kaks

kpivovro
at
Bikal ov IIAorov kal

re
ov
oi
5
uakdpov viacov ivres Aeyov

k
erue}\ntal
oi
6t.
"ps rw, Affa, ot.
off: dvdpotol g.
,
Tepanoe dvd&vot. eitew ov Zews. 'AAA' yd,

6
&m, Tavoo Tobro ytyvuevov. viv uv yip

at
Kaks Bikat ukovrat. duTexduevol yp,

hn, kpwuevo kpivovtat: vres yap kpi
oi
ToMAoi obv, 6s, buxas Tovmpds

6
voviral.
kal
juditeouvot aduat
Te
xovres elot kaAd

Il. xv. 187 foll.
*
518
GORGIAS
fears : for to arrive in the nether world having one's

soul full fraught with a heap of misdeeds is the
all
uttermost of evils. And now, you do not
if
mind, tell you show you
to
to
would like tale
a
I
that the case so.
Well, is you have completed the rest
of
as
CALL.
on
the business, go and complete this also.
soc. Give ear then, they say, right fine
as
to
a
story, which you will regard fable, fancy, but
as
a
to
for what
as
an actual account am about
I
;
I
tell you the truth. By Homer's

to
mean offer as
I
account, Zeus, Poseidon, and Pluto divided the

sovereignty amongst them when they took over
it
from their father. Now the time of Cronos there
in
law concerning mankind, and
to
was holds this
it
a
very day amongst the gods, that every man who has
passed just and holy life departs after his decease
a
the Blest, and dwells all happiness

of
to
in
the Isles
apart from ill; but whoever has lived unjustly and
impiously goes the dungeon requital and penance
to
of
which, you know, they call Tartarus. Of these men

there were judges Cronos' time, and still
of
late
in
the reign Zeusliving men judge the living

of
to
in
upon the day when each was breathe his last;

to
and thus the cases were being decided amiss. So

Pluto and the overseers from the Isles of the
Blest came before Zeus with the report that they
found men passing over either abode undeserving.
to
Then spake Zeus: Nay, said he, will put I

a
stop these proceedings.

to
The cases are now

indeed judged ill; and because they who are
is
it
on
trial are tried their clothing, for they are tried

in
alive. Now many, said he, who have wicked

souls are clad fair bodies and ancestry and wealth,
in
519
PLATO
yevrj Kal ttXovtovs, Kal, eirei.8dv ep-
f),
r) Kplois
Xovrai. avTois TroXXol udpTvpes, uap-rvpijcrovTes (ius
SiKalcDS fSef$id>Kaow oi ovv SiKaoral vtto -re
D tovtcdv K7r\rp-rovrai, kcu dua Kal avrol dp.-
irexpuevoi,SiKaôvoi, npo ttjs fox^s ttjs avrcbv
6(f>QaXuovs kcu una Kal oXov to
crajua irpoKe-
ravra avrols iravra e-niTrpoctdev
Srj
KaXvuuevoi.
ylyverat, Kal to avrwv duîlauaTa Kal to. tG>v
Kpivouevojv. TtpGrrov uev ovv, e<f>r], Travariov
earl irpoet,8oTas avrovs tov ddvarov vvv yap
npoioaat,. tovto uev ovv Kal eipijrai rco
8r)
UpofirjOel O7T0DS av iravarj avratv. eTreira yv-
E
uvovs Kpvreov airdvrcDV tovtwv TedveaJras ydp

Set KpiveoOat.. Kal tov Kpirrjv Set yvuvov elvat,
redvecora, avrfj rfj ifivxfj avrrjv tt)v >jjv)(r)v 8eco-
povvra iâi<j)V7]s anodavovros eKaorov, eprjpov
ndvrojv TU)V avyyevwv Kal KaTaXnrovTa enl ttjs
yfjs rrdvTa eKelvov tov koouov, wa Si/ccua KpLais
rj
iyoi uev ovv Tavra eyvojKws nporepos
$.
r)
vuels inoi.r]odp.7]v 8iKaaras viels euavTOV, 8vo
uev K ttjs 'Aalas, Mlvco re Kal 'PaSduavdvv,
D24 eva Se Ik ttjs JLvpu>TT7)s, AlaKov ovtol ovv eVeiSav
TeXevTrjacooi, DiKaaovcnv ev tu> XeiuuJvt., ev tjj
fjs
(f>epeTov tco o8u>, uev ei? uaKaputv

i
Tpi68a>,
t)
Kal tovs uev eK ttjs

8'
vrjaovs, els TdpTapov.

r)
'Aalas 'Pa8duav6vs Kpivel, tovs Se eK ttjs Evpoj-

tttjs AlaKos' MtVat Se Trpeafieia 8u>oa> imSuiKpl-
vew, edv aTropfJTOv ti tco eTepco, Iva coy Si/catoTarry
_, KpLais nepl ttjs -nopelas toTs avdpd)TTOis-
fj
r)
Taur' eoTiv, KaAAiVAeis, a eyui aKrjKocjs

a)
marevio dXrjOr) etvai- /cat eK tovtwv t&v Xoycov

B
Toiov8e ti Xoyiôuai crvuâlvew . OdvaTos Tvy

6
520
GORGIAS
and at their judgement appear many witnesses to

testify that their lives have been just. Now, the
judges are confounded not only by their evidence
but at the same time by being clothed themselves
while they sit in judgement, having their own soul
muffled in the veil of eyes and ears and the whole
body. Thus all these are a hindrance to them,
their own habiliments no less than those of the
"
judged. Well, first of all," he said, we must put
a stop to their foreknowledge of their death ; for
this they at present foreknow. However, Pro
metheus has already been given the word to stop
this in them. Next they must be stripped bare of
all those things before they are tried ; for they
must stand their trial dead. Their judge also must
be naked, dead, beholding with very soul the very
soul of each immediately upon his death, bereft of
all his kin and having left behind on earth all that
fine array, to the end that the judgement may be
just. Now I, knowing all this before you, have
appointed sons of my own to be judges ; two
from Asia, Minos and Rhadamanthus, and one from
Europe, Aeacus. These, when their life is ended,
shall give judgement in the meadow at the dividing
of the road, whence are the two ways leading, one
to the Isles of the Blest, and the other to Tartarus.
And those who come from Asia shall Rhadamanthus
try, and those from Europe, Aeacus ; and to Minos
I will give the privilege of the final decision, if the
other two be in any doubt ; that the judgement upon
this journey of mankind may be supremely just."
This, Callicles, is what I have heard and believe
to be true ; and from these stories, on my reckoning,
we must draw some such moral as this : death, as
521
PLATO
yavei a>v, coy e/iot 8o/cei, ovoiv

ovSev dXXo fj
irpayp,aroi.v 8i.aX.vais, rfjs foxys Kat Tv acofiaros,
an' aA\rjXoi.v eneiodv oe SiaXvdrjrov apa am
dXXr/Xoiv, ov ttoXv rjrrov eKarepov avrolv epfei
rf]V ew rfjv avrov, fjvirep /cat ore et,rj 6 dvdpamos,
ro re acop.a rfjv <f>vaiv rfjv avrov /cat rd Oeparrev-
p.ara Kai ra Trad-q/xara evorjXa irdvra. olov
Q ei rivos p,eya rjv ro aa>p.a <f>vaei fj rpo<f>fj fj dju-
<f>6repa ,a>vros, rovrov /cat eVetSa.i' aTrodavrj 6
veKpos p.eyas, /cat et 7raû?, iraxys /cat dnodavovros,
/cat rdXXa ovrcos' Kat ei av eirerrjoeve Kop.av,
Kop,-qTT)s rovrov /cat 6 veKpos. fiaariyias at? et
fjv
Tt? /cat t^wy etê rdiv TrXijyiov ovXds ev tcu

acop,ari vtto fiaariyatv aAAcof rpavpidrtov
fj
tfiv, /cat redvecoros rd au>p,a eariv toelv ravra fj

fy
exov Kareayora re et tou p.e%q SteoTpa/x-
fj
p.eva t,tovros, /cat reBvewros raird ravra evSrjXa.
evl Se Aoyai, oto? etvat rrapeaKevaaro rd
D
aruifxa
t,u>v, ravra /cat TeAeuT^ffavTO? rrdvra
fj
ev8r)Xa
rd em rwa \povov. r avrov
Sry
noXXd jitoi
fj
tout' apa /cat irepl rfjv ifniXW tvat, KaAAt-

c3
So/cei
/cAety evSrjXa Ttdvra eariv ev rfj *}rvxV> CTeiSdv
yvfivoodfj rov ad)/j,aros, rd re rfjs <f>vaecos /cat
to. iradrjpara, a 81a. ttjv emrrjh'evaiv e/caorou
Trpdypharos eaxev ev rfj ^n>xfi dvdpamos. "eVei-
4.
odv ovv dxfaiKwvrai irapd rov SiKaorrfv, oi puev

E
e/c rfjs 'Aalas irapd rov 'PaSdfiavdw, 'PaSa-

6
p,av6vs e/cetVous emorrjoas Oearai e/caorou Tr/v

ifivx^v,ovk eiocos orov eartv, aAAa iroAAaKis
rov fieydXov fiaaiXews emXa/36p,evos dXXov
fj
orovovv jSaaxAea)? ovvdarov Kareloev ouSev

fj
vyies ov rfjs ifivxfjs, dXXd Siap,ep,aari,ycopLevrjv

522
GORGIAS
it seems to me, is actually nothing but the dis

connexion of two things, the soul and the body,
from each other. And so when they are disconnected
from one another, each of them keeps its own
condition very much as it was when the man was
alive, the body having its own nature, with its treat
ments and experiences all manifest upon it. For
instance, if anyone's body was large by nature or
by feeding or by both when he was alive, his corpse
will be large also when he is dead ; and if he was
fat, it will be fat too after his death, and so on for
the rest ; or again, if he used to follow the fashion
of long hair, long-haired also will be his corpse.
Again, if anyone had been a sturdy rogue, and bore
traces of his stripes in scars on his body, either from
the whip or from other wounds, while yet alive,
then after death too his body has these marks
visible upon it ; or if anyone's limbs were broken
or distorted in life, these same effects are manifest
in death. In a word, whatever sort of bodily appear
ance a man had acquired in life, that is manifest
also after his death either wholly or in the main for
some time. And so it seems to me that the same
is the case with the soul too, Callicles : when a
man's soul is stripped bare of the body, all its natural
gifts, and the experiences added to that soul as
the result of his various pursuits, are manifest in it.
So when they have arrived in presence of their
judge, they of Asia before Rhadamanthus, these
Rhadamanthus sets before him and surveys the
soul of each, not knowing whose it is ; nay, often
when he has laid hold of the Great King or some
other prince or potentate, he perceives the utter
unhealthiness of his soul, striped all over with the
523
PLATO
km ovXu>v vtto emopKiaiv kcu d8t.Ki.as, a
fiearrjv
525 eKacrrr] r) rrpdîs clvtov eco[x6pa.TO els rr)v i/nrxqv,
/cat Travra OKoXia vtto tfievSovs kcu dXat,ovelas
Kai ov8ev evdv Sid to dvev dXrjOetas re9pd<f>6ai'
kcu vtto eôvaias Kai rpwjjrjs kcu vfipecos Kai
OLKparLas rwv davp.p.eTplas re kcu. at-
Trpdêwv
oxpoTrjTos yep-ovoav rrjv iftvxWv cZSev I8div 8e
aTtjLuo? ravrrjv aTreTrepAJiev evdv rfjs <f>povpas,
ot p,eXXei eXdovoa dvarXfjvat, rd TrpoorjKovra
B TTa.Br). TrpoarjKi ok ttovtI t<3 ev Tipiajpia ovri,
vtt dXXov 6p8u>s Tip,copovp,evw , rj fieXrlovi yiyve-
oOat Kai ovivaaQai rj Trapa8eiyp.ari, roXs dXXois
ylyveadai, "va opwvres Trda\ovTa a dv
dXXoi
Trdcrxj) (f>oôvfievot. fieXriovs yiyvcovrai. elai 8e
o. p.ev w<f>eXovp,evoL re Kai. oiK-qv 8i86vres vtto
6ed)v re Kai dv9pd)Trcov ovtol, ot dv ldoi/j,a dpiap-
rrjp,ara ap.dpru>aiv dp,<x>s Se 81 aXyqBovcov Kai
68wd>v ylyverai at/rots rj uxf>eXLa Kai iv6d8e Kai
C ev "AiSov ov yap otov re dXXcos dSiKias d,7raX-
Xdrreodai. ot 8' dv rd eo\aTa aoiKrjocooi Kai
Sid ra, roiavra dSiKrjfiara dvlaroi yevojvrat, e/c
rovrojv ra rrapa8eiyp.aTa yiyverat., Kai ovtoi
avrol p.ev ovKeri ovivavrai ovoev, are dviaToi
dvres, dAAoi Se ovlvavrat. ol rovrovs opdjvres Sid
ras dp,aprlas to /neyiara Kai oovvrjporaTa Kai
cfrofiepibraTa ndOrj rrdoxovTas t6v del xpovov,
drexytos napaoeiyp.ara dvqprrjp.evovs e/cei ev "Ai-
8ov ev 8eap,atTrjplcp, rots del tcuv dSiKatv
' D
d(f>iKVovpêvois 6edp,ara Kai vovOerrj p,ara. Jiv eyoj
<f>-qp,i era Kai 'Ap%eAaov eaeodai, el dXrjdrj Xeyei
IlaiAo?, Kai dXXov Sorts dv roiovros rvpawos
otp.ai 8e Kai rods ttoXXovs eirai rovrcov tcov
fj'
524
GORGIAS
scourge, and a mass of wounds, the work of perjuries

and injustice ; where every act has left its smirch
upon his soul, where all is awry through falsehood and
imposture, and nothing straight because of a nurture
that knew not truth : or, as the result of an unbridled
course of fastidiousness, insolence, and incontinence,
he finds the soul full fraught with disproportion and
ugliness. Beholding this he sends it away in dis
honour straight to the place of custody, where on
its arrival it is to endure the sufferings that are
fitting. And it is fitting that every one under
punishment rightly inflicted on him by another
should either be made better and profit thereby, or
serve as an example to the rest, that others seeing
the sufferings he endures may in fear amend them
selves. Those who are benefited by the punishment
they get from gods and men are they who have
committed remediable offences ; but still it is
through bitter throes of pain that they receive their
benefit both here and in the nether world ; for in
no other way can there be riddance of iniquity.
But of those who have done extreme wrong and, as
a result of such crimes, have become incurabley of
those are the examples made ; no longer are they
profited at all themselves, since they are incurable,
but others are profited who behold them undergoing
for their transgressions the greatest, sharpest, and
most fearful sufferings evermore, actually hung up
as examples there in the infernal dungeon, a
spectacle and a lesson to such of the wrongdoers
as arrive from time to time. Among them I say
Archelaus also will be found, if what Polus tells us is
true, and every other despot of his sort. And I
think, moreover, that most of these examples have
525
PLATO
TTapa.8eLyfj.aTwv e/c rvpawaw /cat flaoiXecov /cat

SvvacrraJv Kal to. tow moXeaiv Trpa^dvTcov ye-
yovoras' oStoi yap Sid rr)v eijovalav pueyiara
Kal avoaidiTara dp.apTTqp.ara dp,aprdvovaL. fâp-
Tvpel Se tovtois Kal "0p.7]pos' jSacriAea? yap Kal
E owdoTas eKelvos TreTrolr]Ke tovs ev "AtSou tov
aet xpovov Tip.a>povp.evovs, TdvTaXov /cat Stcruôv
Kal Titvov QepmTrjv Se', /cat ei ti? aAAos irovripos
fjv
l8td)T7]s, ov8els TTeTTolyjKe p,eydXais Tip-topCais

avve)(6p.evov d>s dvlarov ov yap, ot/xat, ir}v
aurar 816 Kal ev8ai.p,oveoTepos tjv ols erjv.
i)
dXXd ydp, u> KaAAt'/cAet?, Ik tG>v 8wap,evcov elol
526 Kat ot o~<f>68pa TTOvrjpol yiyvop.evoi avdpojTror
ov8ev p.rp> /ccoAuet Kal ev tovtois dyadovs dv8pas
eyylyveordai, Kal <xcf>68pa ye dt,ov dyaadai rd>v
yiyvop.evoiv âAe7rov ydp, w KaAAt'/cAeiS', Kal
ttoXXov eiralvov diov ev p,eydXr) eovala rov
d8iKelv yevop.evov St/cat'cos 8ta/?taij>at. oKlyoi Se
ylyvovrai ol tolovtoi- eWi Kal evdd8e /cat dAAoflt
yeyovaaw, ot/xat Se /cat eaovrai /caAot Kayadol
ravTTjv tî> dpeTTjv rr)v rod 8i/caia>s Staêtpt'êti'
B
a dv tis einTpenT)- els Se /cat irdw iXX6yip.os

yeyove /cat ei? tovs dXXovs "EWrjvas, 'AptcrretS^?
Avoip,d)(ov ol Se 770AA01, dpiore, /ca/cot
<L
6
ylyvovrai Tcbv 8vvaora>v. oTrep ovv eXeyov, emei-

Sdv 'Pa8dp,av9vs eKelvos tolovtov rwa XafSr/,
6
aAAo p,ev irepi avrov ovk oloev ovoev, ovtf oorty

ovd* aJVTivtov, oti Se rrovqpos Tis' /cat TOVTO
/cartSaiv aTTeTTep.^jev els Tdprapov, emo~r]p,r)vd-
p,evos, edv re iaoip.os edv re dvlaros 8okjj eivai.
526
GORGIAS
come from despots and kings and potentates and

public administrators ; for these, since they have a
free hand, commit the greatest and most impious
offences. Homer also testifies to this ; for he has
represented kings and potentates as those who are
punished everlastingly in the nether world
Tantalus and Sisyphus and Tityus ; but Thersites,
or any other private person who was wicked, has
been portrayed by none as incurable and therefore
subjected to heavy punishment ; no doubt because
he had not a free hand, and therefore was in
fact happier than those who had. For in fact,
Callicles, it is among the powerful that we find the
specially wicked men. Still there is nothing to
prevent good men being found even among these,
and it deserves our special admiration when they
are ; for it is hard, Callicles, and deserving of no
slight praise, when a man with a perfectly free
hand for injustice lives always a just life. The men
of this sort are but few ; for indeed there have
been, and I expect there yet will be, both here and
elsewhere, men of honour and excellence in this
virtue of administering justly what is committed
to their charge. One in fact there has been whose
fame stands high among us and throughout the rest
of Greece, Aristeides, son of Lysimachus ; but most
of those in power, my excellent friend,' prove to
be bad. So, as I was saying, whenever the judge
Rhadamanthus has to deal with such an one, he
knows nothing else of him at all, neither who he is
nor of what descent, but only that he is a wicked
person ; and on perceiving this he sends him away
to Tartarus, first setting a mark on him to show
whether he deems it a curable or an incurable case ;
527
PLATO
Q 6 he e/ceiae dcftiKopevos ra npoarfKovra irdax^--

eviore dXXrjv eiaihiov oalcos fiefiiaiKvlav
8' /ecu
p,eT' dXrjdeias, dvhpos IhitoTov t) dXXov twos, ]
fi.dXi.OTa pev, eytoye cj>rjpi, <L KaAAi/eAeis, <f>iXoo6

<f>ov
to avTOV irpdavTOS Kal ov TroXvirpaypiOV.
aavTOs ev Tip fila>, r)ydo~9r) re Kal is /xa/cdpci
vrjaovs aTreirepifie . TavTa he raura /cat 6 Aia/co
eKaTepos tovtojv pdfihov e^cov 8i/caef o .
MiVai? eirujKOiruiv KadrjTai, p.6vos e^cov \pvaov.
D OKrJTTTpov, cos ifrqaiv 'Qhvaaevs 6 'Qp/ffpov ISeiv
avrov
Xpvaeov OKrjiTTpov eôvra, Oepiorevovra veKVcraiv.
iydi p.ev ovv, to KaAAiVAeis, vtt6 tovtojv tco

Xoyojv -neTteiapai, /ecu ottojs dno(f>avovpa
otcottco
rep KpiTjj cos uyieoraTrjv ttji" ipv^r/v âlpeiv ovv
idaas ras Tipas ras tcov ttoXXcov dvdpionwv, ttjv
dXrfdeiav okoitwv rrei.paaop.ai. tco ovti d>s civ
hvvtopai /SeATitrros d>v xai rjv Kal imuhdv diro-
E QvrfOKd) diro8vrjcrKei,v . irapaKaXco he Kal tovs
dXXovs -navras dvdpumovs, Kad' oaov hvvapai,
Kal /ecu ae avTinapaKaXto em tovtov tov film
8t)
Kal tov dycova tovtov, ov iyd) (prjpi dvrl TrdvTcov

tlov ivdahe aywvcov elvat., /ecu of<.Si'co croi, otl
ot>x olos t ear) aavTcp ^Soiy&fjcrcu, otov S//07
-r)
fy
hrj
croi Kal Kplois vvv eyeb eXeyov, dXXa

ij
rj
eXdwv trapd tov hiKaoTr/v tov rfjs Alylvrjs vloi

527 iireiBdv aov em.Xaf36p.evos dyr), xaop.rjo~n <ca.
lAiyyiaoeis ovoev tjttov eyto evoaoe ov eKi,
tj
Od. xi. 569.

1
i.e. in return for Callicles' invitation to him to pursue

8
the life of rhetoric and politics, 521 a.

528
GORGIAS
W1
and when the man arrives there he suffers what is
fitting. Sometimes, when he discerns another soul
that has lived a holy life in company with truth, a
private man's or any other's especially, as I claim,
Callicles, a philosopher's who has minded his own
business and not been a busybody in his lifetime
he is struck with admiration and sends it off to the
Isles of the Blest. And exactly the same is the
procedure of Aeacus : each of these two holds a
rod in his hand as he gives judgement ; but Minos
sits as supervisor, distinguished by the golden
sceptre that he holds, as Odysseus in Homer tells
how he saw him
Holding a golden sceptre, speaking dooms to the dead.1
Now for my part, Callicles, I am convinced by

these accounts, and I consider how I may be able to
show my judge that my soul is in the best of health.
So giving the go-by to the honours that most men
seek I shall try, by inquiry into the truth, to be
really good in as high .a degree as I am able, both
in my life and, when I come to die, in my death.
And I invite all other men likewise, to the best
of my power, and you particularly I invite in return,2
to this life and this contest, which I say is worth
all other contests on this earth ; and I make it a
reproach to you, that you will not be able to deliver
yourself when your trial comes and the judgement
of which I told you just now ; but when you go
before your judge, the son of Aegina,3 and he grips
you and drags you up, you will gape and feel dizzy
there no less than I do here, and some one perhaps
8
Aegina, daughter of the river-god Asopus, was the
mother of Aeacus by Zeus.
vol. v 2 m 529
PLATO
'
locos Timrrjaci n? Kal em Kopprjs aTtp.cos'
"
KP
' i>? irpoTrqXaKiei.
8' ovv Tavra p,v96s ooi So/cet Xeyeodat
jjc^f. ypaos Kal Kara<f>povets avrcov, /cat ovoev
y av fy davpaorov Karaxfrpovetv tovtcov, el tttj
^r/rovvres elxop,ev avrcov jSeArico /cat dX-qdearepa
evpeiv vvv oe opas, on rpeis ovres vp.els, olnep
oo<f>corarol iore tcov vvv 'EXXrfvcov, av re Kal UcoXos
B xal Topyias, ovk eêre dirooelâi,, cos Set dXXov
rtva fiiov t,rjv rj tovtov, oonep /cat e/cetcre cj>ai-
verai ovp,<f>epcov . dXX' ev tooovtols Xoyois tcov
aXXcov eAeyxopevcov p.6vos oStos rjpep,el 6 Xoyos,
cos evXafir\Teov earl to doLKelv p,aXXov ^ to dSt-
Kelodai, Kal iravTos jLtaAAov dvopl pêXeTtyreov
ov to So/cetv elvai clyaddv dXXd to elvai, Kal
t'Si'a Kal orip-oola- idv oe ns Kara Tt KaKos yl-
yvtyrai, KoXaoTeos earl, /cattovto oevTepov aya-
C 86v p,Ta to etvat, St/caiov, to yiyveodai Kal KoXa-
6p,evov StSoVat St'/C7jv /cat iraaav /coAa/cetav /cat
ttjv wept eavTov Kal njv iiepu tovs dXXovs, /cat
Trepl oXiyovs /cat Trepl ttoXXovs, cpevKTeov koX
T-fj prjTopiKrj ovrco xp-qaTeov em to St'/catov del,
Kal Trj dXXrj Trdorj Trpdei. e/iot ov ireiOope-
vos aKoXovOrjoov eWatJ&a, ol d<f>iKop.evos et58at-
p,ovrjoeis Kal tjbv /cat TeXevrqaas , cos 6 Xoyos
crqp,aivev. Kal eaoov Tivd aov KaTa<f>povrjaai cos
dvorp-ov Kal TrpoTTrjXaKicrai, idv fiovXrjTai, Kal
D vat /id At'a av ye naTaâi. riji' aTip.ov
dappcov
TavTTjV irXrjyrjv ovoev yap oeivov Treior], eav tco
pvrt rjs KaXos Kayados, aoKcov apeTrjv. /cairetTa
ovrco KOLvij doK'QoavTes, TOTe T)8r], eav ooKrj
530
GORGIAS
will give you, yes, a degrading box on the ear, and

will treat you with every kind of contumely.
Possibly, however, you regard this as an old
wife's tale, and despise it ; and there would be no
wonder in our despising it if with all our searching
we could somewhere find anything better and truer
than this : but as it is, you observe that you three,
who are the wisest of the Greeks in our day you
and Polus and Gorgias are unable to prove that
we ought to live any other life than this, which is
evidently advantageous also in the other world.
But among the many statements we have made,
while all the rest are refuted this one alone is un
shaken that doing wrong is to be more carefully
shunned than suffering it ; that above all things a
man should study not to seem but to be good both
-, in private and in public ; that if one becomes bad
(in any respect one must be corrected ; that this is
good in the second place, next to being just, to
become so and to be corrected by paying the
penalty ; and that every kind of flattery, with regard
either to oneself or to others, to few or to many,
must be avoided ; and that rhetoric is to be used
for this one purpose always, of pointing to what
is just, and so in every other activity. Take my
advice, therefore, and follow me where, if you once
iarrive, you will be happy both in life and after life's
end, as this account declares. And allow anyone
to contemn you as a fool and foully maltreat you if
he chooses ; yes, by Heaven, and suffer undaunted
the shock of that ignominious cuff; for you will
Some to no harm if you be really a good and upright
man, practising virtue. And afterwards, having
practised it together, we shall in due course, if we
\ 531
PLATO
Xprjvat.,imdrjaofj-eda rail's 7toAi.tikois, rj ottolov

av Tt rjfi.LV OOKfj> Tore ôvAevaofxeda, fSeAriovs
ovres fiovAeveodai r) vvv. alaxpov ydp eôvTaj
ye (Ls vvv <f>cuv6[j,eda e\eiv, eireira veavieveaOcu
ws rl owaj, of? ovSeTTore ravra 8okl Trepi tojv
E avrujv, Kai Tavra irepi tujv peyioroDV eis roaovrov
7]Kop,ev aTTCuSevalas' axmep ovv ijye/ioVi ra
A6yu> ^prjad>p,eda ru> vvv 7rapa<f>avevTi, os rjfjuv
orjfiaCvei, on odros 6dpiaros rov fiiov,
rponos
Kai ttjv hiKaioavvqv Kai rfjv dAAr/v dperr)v aaKovvras
Kai Qfjv Kai reQvdvai. rovrat ovv Tru>p.eQa, Kai
rovs dAAovs irapaKaAwfjiev, /x-q eKeivio, u> av
tnarevcov epe TrapaKaAels' eari ydp ovoevos
aios, c5 KaAAi'/cAei? .
532
GORGIAS
deem it right, embark on politics, or proceed to

consult on whatever we may think fit, being then
better equipped for such counsel than we are now.
For it is disgraceful that men in such a condition
as we now appear to be in should put on a swagger
ing, important air when we never continue to be of
the same mind upon the same questions, and those
the greatest of all we are so sadly uneducated.
Let us therefore take as our guide the doctrine
now disclosed, which indicates to us that this way
of life is best to live and die in the practice alike
of justice and of all other virtue. This then let us
follow, and to this invite every one else ; not that
to which you trust yourself and invite me, for it is
nothing worth, Callicles.
538
INDEX OF NAMES
Academy, gymnasium, 7 399 B.C.), 252, 339 n., 341, 345, 373,
Achilles, son of Thetis, 105-7, 197, 525
230 Arginusae (battle, 406 b.c), 350 n.
Acumenus, father of Eryximachus, Aristeides, son of Lysiraacnus, 527
physician, 78 Aristocrates, son of Scellias,
Acusilaus, Argive genealogist, 101 n. Athenian general (d. 406 b.c.)
Admetus, husband of Alcestis, 197 345
Aeacus, 521, 529 n. Aristodemus, disciple of Socrates.
Aegina, island, 481 78 ff.
Aegina, mother of Aeacus, 529 n. Aristogeiton, Athenian tyrannicide
Aeschylus, Athenian dramatist (c. (514 B.C.), 118
525-456 B.C.), 107 n. Aristophanes, Athenian comic poet
Aexone, Attic deme, 11 (c. 444-380 b.c), 78 ff. 237 n. 396
,
Agamemnon, 87, 116 n. n., 448 n.
Agathon, Athenian dramatist (c, Aristophon, brother of Polygnotus,
447-400 B.C.), 78 ff., 330 n. painter. 263
Aglaophon, father of Polygnotus Aristotle, 101 n., 156 n., 339 n.
4,
and Aristophon, 263 Asclepiadae, medical guild, 78
Ajax, 233 Asclepius, legendary founder of
Alcestis, daughter of Pelias, and medicine, 127
wife of Admetus, 103, 107, 197 Asopus, river-god, father of Aegina,
Alcetas, brother of Perdiccas, 341 529 n.
Alcibiades 450-404 B.C.), 75, 77, Athenaeus, 462 n.
(c.
78, 209 ff., 379, 505 Athene, 159

Alcidamas, sophist, 156 n.
Alexander, son of Alcetas, 341 Birth, 101
Amphion, son of Zeus, 338 n., 393, Boeotia, 113
465 Brasidas, Spartan general (d, 422
Anaxagoras of Clazomenae, Ionian B.C.), 239
philosopher in Athens (c. 500-430
b.c), 321 Callias, patron of sophists, 396 n.
Andron, son of Androtion, 396 n. Callicles, of Acharnae (Attica),
Antenor, 239 250 ff.
Anubis, Egyptian god, 306 n. Carians, 512 n.
Aphrodite, goddess of love, 99,109, Chaerephon, disciple of Socrates,
179 ff. 250, 259 ff.
Apollo, 139, 159 Chaos, 101
Apollodorus, disciple of Socrates, Charmides, son of Glaucon and
78 ff. maternal uncle of Plato, 241
Arcadians, 145 Cirnon, son of Miltiades(d, 449B.&),
Archelaus, king of Macedonia (413- 455, 493, 499, 505
534
INDEX
Cinesias, son of Meles, dithyrambic Hades, 417
poet, 448 a.
Harmodius, Athenian tyrannicide
Cleinias, father of Alcibiades,
379 (514 B.C.), 113
Cleopatra, wife of Perdiccas, 341 Hector, 105
Codrus, legendary king of Athens, Hephaestus, 143, 159
197 n.
of
Corinth, 13 n. Heracleitus Ephesus, philoso
pher
(c.
500 B.C.), 127
n.
Cronos, Titan,153 n., 519 Hercules,
97
13,
Ctesippus, 7
ff.
Hermaea (festival),
17
Cunning, mother
of
Resource, Herodicus, brother
of
179 Gorgias,
Cydathenaeum, Attic deme,
83
physician, 263
Herodotus,
n.
109
Darius, king
of
Persia, 27,
35
Hesiod, 47, 101 n., 153 n., 201
Delium, Boeotia, 237
13 in
n.
Hieronymus, Hippo
of
Delphi, n., 345 father
thales,
7
Democrates, father
ofof
Lysis, 11,
13
Hippias, Elis, sophist, 78
of
Demophon, father Menexenus, Hippothales, son
of
19 Hieronymus,
ff.
s7 -
Demus, son
of
Pyrilampes, 379 n., Homer, n., 87, 89, 103 n., 105 m.,
41
487
107 n., 116 n., 137 n., 143, 153 n.,
Diocles, father
n.of
Euthydemus, 241 155 n., 158-9, 163 n., 201, 215 m.,
Diomedes, 231
Dione, female Titan, 109 231 n., 235 n., 241 n. 265 m.,
391 n., 497 n., 518 n., 527, 528
n.
Dionysium (temple
of
Dionysus),
344 n.
Iapetus, 153
n.
Dionysus, god
of
99
wine and drama, Ionia, 113
Ionians, 235
of
Diotima, Mantinea, 78, 173

ff.
Isthmian Games,
12
n.
Earth, 101
Egypt, 381,481 Lacedaemonians, 145, 201
Elis, Laches, Athenian general (d.
113
B.C.), 237 418
of
Empedocles, Acragas, Sicily Leuctra, Boeotia, 103

m.
philosopher (c.475-415 B.C.),43 n., Lucian, 441

n.
125 n., 415 n., 438

n.
Lucretius, 135
n.
Ephialtes, giant, 137

Lyceum, gymnasium,
7,
245
of
Epicharmus, Cos, comic poet,

462 n. Lycurgus, legendary Spartan law
maker,
n.
Eryximachus, son 201

of
Acumenus,
L'achus,
of
physician, father Aristeides,

78
ff.
Euclid,
of
Alexandria, geometri Lysis,

ff.
(c.
cian 370-290 B.C.), 319

n.
Euripides, Athenian dramatist Macrobius, 137

n.
n., 157 n., 165 n.,

97
(480406 B.C.), Mantinea, 145

n.
*:
839 n., 388 n., 393, 414 n., 514
n.
Marsyas, satyr, 219

Euthydemus, son
of
Diocles, 241
of
father Cinesias, minstrel,

Geryones, monstrous giant, 387
a
Menelaus, 87
6:on,
of
father Charmides,
82
n.,
Menexenus, son
of
41 Demophon,
ff.
Miccus, wrestling-master,
3
Glaucus, 231
n.
Gorgias, Leontini, Sicily, sophist Miltiades, Athenian general

of
(d.
488 B.C.), 455, 493, 499
(c.
490395 B.C.), 78,163 n., 250

ft.
Gorgon, 163 Minos, 521, 529

m.
Mithaecus, writer on
cookery, 503
535
/' INDEX
Myrrhinus, Attic deme, 95 Prodicus of Ceos, sophist, 78, 97 n.
Mysians, 512 n. Prometheus, 521
Mysteries, Great and Little, 430 n. Pyrilampes, father of Demus, 379,
487
Nausicydes, of Cholarges, 396 n. Pythagoreans, 255, 414 n., 415 n.,
Necessity, 159 417 n., 470 n.
Nemean Games, 13 n. Pythian Games, 12 n.
Nestor, 116 n., 239
Nicias, son of Niceratus, Athenian Quintilian, Roman rhetorician
(c.
general (d. in Sicily, 413 b.c), 35-95 A.D.), 315 n.
344 n.
Resource, son of Cunning,
ff.
179
Odysseus, 529 Rhadamanthus, 521 ff.
Oeagrus, father of Orpheus, 105
Olympus, Phrygian flute-player, Sarambus, vintner, 503
219
Scellias, father of Aristocrates, 345
Orpheus, son of Oeagrus, .legendary
Scythia, 385
bard, 105
Shakespeare, 259 n.
Otus, giant, 137
Silenus, 219, 223, 239, 241
Sirens, 221
Paeania, Attic deme, 7
Sisyphus, 527
Panops (Hermes), 7
Solon, Athenian law - giver and
Parmenides, 101 n., 153, 159 n.
poet 638-555 B.C.), 37 n., 201
(c.
Patroclus, 105-7, 197
friend of
Sophocles, Athenian dramatist
Pausanias, Agathon,
78 ff.
(495-406 B.c), 115 n., 157 n.,
283 n.
Pausanias, traveller and writer
(2nd cent, a.d.), 109 n.
Pelias, father of Alcestis, 103 Tantalus, 527
Perdiccas, king of Macedonia (d. c. Tartarus, 519 ff.
414 B.c.) 341 Thearion, baker, 503
Pericles (c. 490-429 b.c), 221, 239, Thebes, Boeotia, 103 n.
254, 256, 289, 345, 455, 493 ft'., Themistius (c. 320-390 a.d.), 250
505 Themistocles (c. 514-449 b.c), 256,
Persian king, 27, 35, 339, 523 289, 455, 493, 499, 505
Phaedrus of Myrrhinus, 78 ff. Thersites, 527
Phalerum, Athenian sea-port, 81, Thessalian witches, 485
288 n. Thetis, mother of Achilles, 105
Thucydides, Athenian historian,
Philip, father of Phoenix, SI
Philolaus, Pythagorean, 414 n. 237 n.
Phoenix, son of Philip, 81 Tisander, of Aphidnae, 396 n.
Pindar, of Boeotia, lyric poet (c.
Tityus, 527
520-440 B.C.), 105 n., 233 n., 387 n.
Piraeus, Athenian sea-port, 288 n. Xenophon, 145 n., 396 n.
Pluto, 519 Xerxes, 385
Polus, disciple of Gorgias, 250 ft'.
Polygnotus of Thasos, painter in Zethus, son of Zeus, 888 n., 393,
Athens (c. 495-430 B.C.) 405, 465
Pontus (Black Sea), 481 Zeus, 13, 109, 137 ff., 159, 388 n.t
Poseidon, 519 519, 529 n.
Potidaea, in Chalcidice, 233 Zeuxis, of Heraclea (S. Italy),
Poverty, 179 ff. painter (c. 450-370 b.c), 281
Printed Great Britain R. R. Clark, Limited, Edinburgh.

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--

I.ONDON WILLIAM HE INF MANN

Priinted in Great Brita

the reader the general character and purpose

something uncanny about him, found an irresistible

quence on the principles of their actions and careers.

prerogatives and duties far above the sphere of civic

where Eucleides, his fellow-student and friend, was

forming a school of dialectic. Here he may have

conflict with sophistic education, he wrote the

which, after an all but disastrous attempt to better

Athens, and, now forty years of age, founded the

feeling. In the latter of

proposals already known to Greece, the abolition of

sopher, through a series of ancillary sciences, for

The following give useful accounts of Socratic and

** ** Plato's Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,

Univ. Press, 1913.

The following are important editions

Adam: The Republic. vols. Camb. Univ. Press, 1902.

W. H. Thompson: The Phaedrus. Bell, 1868.

D. Archer-Hind: The Phaedo. Macmillan, 2nd ed., 1894

** 59 The Timaeus. Macmillan, 1888.

Campbell: The Theaetetus. Clarendon Press, 1883.

IN the Lysis Socrates relates how he was taken by

motives which are surmised

depend sense and therefore on

tnowledge. The second and main discussion (211

!23) deals with the nature and

the end left unexplained,

ilthough this relation

and incidental suggestions are

leep interest the student

lent merely the difficulties

ply his questions

subject, were anxious

swift and summary fashion which would allow the

|uick-witted boy follow his thought, but not

For the moment,

ate, content lead his friend into

outline the discussion

>gue of strong attachments between young

ta tot AiAAoror npozsinA

atl\ 'Eiropevofirjv fiev e 'A/caS^/id'as eiidv AvkcIov

TTopevr/ Kai iroBev;

'E 'AKaSrjfielas, rropevop.ai ev8v

AcO/OO Stj, rjp,u>v.

Aevpo, ecfyq, 8el$as p.01 ev rut KaravriKpv tov

(Socrates relates a conversation that he had in

I was making my way from the Academy straight

humorously claimed to do.

eycl), ov cf)avX6s ye dvrjp, dXX'

JB YlpcoTov1 rj8ea>s aKovoai/x' dv em Tip /cat elaeipn

e<f>7), dXXcp rjp.cov 8oKeZ, Sto/cpares'.

Kai os eputrqdels rjpvdpiaaev. Kal eycb etrrov

elTTTjs, eire epas tov elre pvq- oI8a yap oti ov

epcoTOS. elfj.1 eycb

oioj telvai yvcovai ipcovTa re Kai. epcop.evov.

AareZov ye, os, oti epvdpL&s,

w 'ImrodaXes, Kai OKveZs ehreZv Sai/fparet Tovvofxa

edv h" ovtos kolI oyzt/cpoV xPvov owStarpufrr] aoi,

TeKp.aipop.ai. Se, d/covcra?

Tovtcov Se Tl, e<f>r), aradp.3.,

i.e. " son of Democrates

Plato's Doctrine of Ideas. Clarendon Press,