The following interview was given by Dr.

Kacem Zoughari to the greek martial arts monthly magazine

(Path for Martial Arts), of May 2010 (issue #105).

KACEM ZOUGHARI My rank is what you see on the tatami!

Interview by Dionysis Tsetselis

This years seminar with Kacem Zoughari was hosted at the Martial Way Academy of Martial
Arts, where I had the chance to observe as a spectator. I had heard many positive things about
him and was expecting to see a teacher at a ripe age. Instead, to my surprise I saw a young
man who at first glance didnt seem to stand out at all amongst the rest of the seminar
participants. Nevertheless, the continuation was truly impressive. His very direct and analytic
teaching, his great emphasis on the details of the techniques and to the correct posture and
body movement, his persistence on executing the attacks, and thus the defenses, as close to
reality as possible, without of course jeopardizing his students safety, his broad knowledge on
martial arts, as well his politeness made me sit fixated and watch closely for almost the entire
duration of the seminar. In addition, all the above led me to the decision to ask him for an
interview, which he kindly gave to me. Enjoy it!

First of all, lets start with the formalities. Would you like to tell me about how you started your
journey in martial arts?

Dr.K.Z.: I was born and raised in Paris and at a very young age I did a bit of Shotokan Karate, which I
didnt like though. I was more moved by street culture, so I felt closer to styles like Muay Thai and
Kickboxing, which among others gave me a sense of freedom of movement. At that time ninja movies
were also in fashion so, as it was natural, I got the impression of also becoming a Ninja (laughter)! The
only thing I wanted was to wear the black ninja mask and throw shuriken (laughter). At that time I knew
nothing of organizations, genealogy and other such things so I started searching for a ninjutsu school in
Paris. So I began lessons with a teacher but after a little while I started having many doubts on what
that man was actually teaching me. Therefore, on December of 1989 and at the age of 17, I decided to
travel to Japan so I could see what ninjutsu was really about.

At the age of 17 you just simply got up and said that youre going to Japan to see what ninjutsu
was?

Dr.K.Z.: Yes, just like that (laughs)! Of course it was very hard for my parents to understand and the
ticket alone cost my fathers monthly wages. Even so, my desire was so big that I managed to have an
agreement with them that Id be away only for a few days. In the end, I stayed there for two whole
months.

What was your first impression?

Dr.K.Z.: I couldnt understand a whole lot but the first thing that I realized at once was that all I had
learned that far was , excuse the expression, bullshit (nonsense). Everything!

I can imagine your disappointment!

Dr.K.Z.: Yes, I felt a very big disappointment. But then I had the rare luck of getting noticed by Ishizuka
sensei, one of the closest students of Hatsumi sensei, who showed interest in me and asked me why I
was looking so disappointed. I replied that Id just discovered that everything I was taught was wrong.
His answer gave me strength: So what? Time you learn correctly then!. I asked him how? and he
told me to just watch him and to try to imitate everything he does as best as I could. I immediately
started lessons with him. He would never explain anything, he just let me look at him and copy him.
That went on for two months, until I returned to Paris.

What did you do then? Did you go back to your school?

Dr.K.Z.: Of course not! I had brought three techniques with me: tsuki, uke and geri, as well as a brief
kata which I practiced constantly, so I would learn them all perfectly.

Wasnt it boring for a 17 year old to constantly and exclusively practice on just three
techniques?

Dr.K.Z.: Not at all! Those three techniques dont just have the simplified meaning most practitioners
give them but represent many more things. Tsuki is not just a punch but a whole way of body
movement, so you can penetrate through the adversary with one blow. Its governed by the concept of
one blow-one life. Uke in reality means to accept but many people erroneously translate it as block.
However, the word block has a very hard and absolute meaning. When we block, our whole body, as
well as our heart, hardens and tightens , resulting in our energy being immobilized too. When our
energy gets immobilized then death comes. The word uke has more to do with the flow and freedom in
movement, while we respond to the everchanging demands of battle. Finally, with the term geri we
mean the kicks, which also have very many demands and ingredients that cant be seen at first glance.
So, in reality I had a lot of work to do.

According to my knowledge, it was at that period in which you also started to occupy yourself
with the Japanese language and with Japanese culture in general.

Dr.K.Z.: During my stay in Japan I felt a deep disappointment because I couldnt effectively
communicate with Ishizuka sensei and Hatsumi sensei. Of course they spoke English, but I felt that
they wouldnt trust someone who didnt speak their language. So, when I got back to Paris I started
learning Japanese. Of course, at that time I couldnt even imagine that later Id be doing complete
studies and get a doctorate degree in Japanese language and culture, that Id be able to study from
very old manuscripts (scrolls) and that Id finally undergo postgraduate studies at the University of Paris
on the history of Japanese martial arts.

So finally, when did you return again to Japan?

Dr.K.Z.: I returned in Japan in 1994 and ever since Ive travelled there many times, trying to learn the
art of the ninjas as well as I could and to also discover ancient authentic scripts, in order to respond to
the demands of my studies. You know, in the end its not so important how long youve been in Japan
but rather the quality of your time there, your training and your contacts there. I know many people who
go to Japan three times per year but who havent accomplished many things. The most basic challenge
(need) is to build a deep relationship of trust with the sensei, so he can really teach you his art in depth
and not just superficially. But to build such a relationship takes a lot of time, effort and a pure heart.
Senseis very rarely give out their deeper knowledge to someone.

Why does that happen, I wonder?

Dr.K.Z.: Its very simple. In the older years, if a master showed someone all his secrets, then it was like
handing him the weapons with which he could, if he was finally proven bad-intentioned, successfully go
against someone of the genealogy or even kill his own master. Therefore, the duty of finding the
masters successor, who would receive all the secrets of the genealogy, was very deep (grave). Today,
even though circumstances have changed and no ones life is in danger like that, this old habit has
mainly been retained and masters show their secrets very rarely and to few people. The question is
very old and extends to our days: How can you give everything, even put your life at stake, for
someone you dont know? So its always a matter of trust, and confidence of trust is a matter of time
and quality of personal character (personality).

So, in the beginning of 1990, until 1994 when you returned to Japan, what did you do?

Dr.K.Z.: Like I mentioned, I come from a poor family and I didnt have the possibility to have trips to
Japan. However, all that period of time I worked hard, working countless hours on my techniques,
training in many other martial arts and studying the Japanese language and culture. I had to search and
dig deep on my own in order to move on. In 1994 I went back to Japan while already speaking, reading
and writing Japanese, I got a university diploma on the language in 1998 and in 2000 I got my
doctorate diploma. In all of this period of time, as I mentioned, I had a lot of long visits to Japan, where
while learning ninjutsu, I also studied Japanese culture for the needs of my university.

How was it when you travelled to Japan?

Dr.K.Z.: Since that time, every time I went to Japan I stayed in Ishizuka senseis house. I followed all of
his training days, as well as all of Hatsumi senseis ones, and when group training was over we did a lot
of private lesson work with the senseis. Of course, I am not the only one that went to Hatsumi senseis
or Ishizuka senseis house and that had lessons under them. However, as I mentioned before, what
matters is the type of relationship someone has with the master and not the number of lessons hes
done with them. Ive never had economic aspirations from martial arts, nor personal ambitions. I just
wanted to learn and not to take non-deserved ranks and knowledge in order to sell after going back to
Paris. It is that which, in my belief, was appreciated by my masters and resulting in them giving me
something more.

Excuse me if Im rude (impolite), but your story resembles a Hollywood movie a little bit. A
fifteen year old boy from the West suddenly shows up to the master out of nowhere, tells him I
came so you can teach me your secrets and he, even though doesnt profoundly teach anyone
in many years, opens his arms and says Welcome! Its you that Ive been waiting for all my life
to give you all of my secrets!

Dr.K.Z.: (Laughs) It wasnt exactly like that! At that period of time I went to class just like everyone and
paid just like everyone. At first I was nothing more than a western human wallet (laughs). It took a very
long time, effort, sacrifices and most of all training until I could be considered Ishizuka senseis internal
student, as well as be allowed by Hatsumi sensei just to get a look at the authentic ancient manuscripts
(scrolls) of his art. Like I said, gaining trust takes years, and mostly demands quality in the relationship.
Everyone just doesnt suddenly open up in front of you, like in the movies. Even after someone is
accepted as an internal student, a master continues to test him till the end and as long as the student
passes the tests, the more a master opens up to him.

Nowadays traveling is easier and western teachers come and go to Hatsumi senseis
headquarters, bringing back stories on how close their relationship with the masters is. Really,
how is the situation for them?

Dr.K.Z.: The Japanese are very polite people. They smile, invite you for dinner and such but thats
mainly an etiquette. They never open themselves totally to you. Ishizuka sensei and Hatsumi sensei
are very polite towards everyone who comes to meet them, for any reason. They happily discuss with
everyone but when one asks something he truly doesnt deserve the answer of, then they just smile
and say Im sorry but I do not understand what you ask me. Ishizuka sensei in particular, can become
friends with someone because hes good company, or go out for dinner with someone but that doesnt
mean that hell give him technical knowledge too. You may be his best friend but if youre not technically
good and really devoted to learning he will give you nothing.

After your acceptance as a student from Ishizuka sensei, how did your relationship change as
well as the teaching you were receiving?

Dr.K.Z.: My relationship with Ishizuka sensei changed a lot during time. While at the beginning I was
nothing more than another student from the West, today he has reached the point in telling everyone
who asks him about me that I am his son. I think that alone says it all. Of course, like in any real father-
son relationship, the father talks to the son according to age, knowledge and experience of his son. In
reality, Ishizuka sensei doesnt teach me anymore but rather transfers his knowledge and those are two
entirely different things.

Yes, I heard that during your seminar. Can you tell me a few words concerning that difference?

Dr.K.Z.: The meaning of the term teach mainly concerns training of kids and/or adults in matters of
either theoretical or technical nature, by a teacher. The meaning of the term transfer is much deeper.
In a relationship of knowledge transferring there is a deep experience-based transmission of the art and
its deeper ingredients (elements), which happens from body to body and from heart to heart. For
example, in martial arts you have to be able to not just learn what is taught to you but mostly with your
own eyes to copy the movement and meaning in it, while watching the master executing it live in front
of you. But to copy the master at such a high level so as to obtain the entire depth of his teaching is
something very very difficult. Many times, youre not able to understand something you see. But that
stays inside you like a seed waiting to blossom and when youre ready, even if the master is no longer
there, the seed will blossom. The way that I understand this relationship, I feel that I never need to ask
my masters questions. How can I pose questions if Im not firstly moving correctly or if Im not flawlessly
executing the techniques? When you attain technical perfection then the questions get answered by
themselves. The answers are not in words but in the movement itself and the bodies of the masters.
The way they walk and execute their techniques. That is true knowledge transferring.

What do you do today? Do you teach ninjutsu as a profession?

Dr.K.Z.: No. I never wanted that. When you expect to make a living from teaching you must make a lot
of sacrifices in quality. Many times youll need to give certificates to people who dont deserve them,
you must occupy yourself more with the politics and promotion and less with training etc. Im not saying
that something like that cant be done in the right way but I cant do it. Many say that they train with their
students but that is not correct. Real training is done when someone is alone. So I teach just twice per
week. The rest of the time I work at the university as a researcher of anything concerning martial arts
and Japan, I occupy myself with my personal training and I also have a family which I have to take care
of. I also speak on numerous universities events and teach at seminars when Im invited. All those are
enough for one person, dont you think?

Of course they are! Now, would you like to say a few words on your academic career? It sounds
a bit odd that you have a PhD on martial arts. Is there such an academic Chair?

Dr.K.Z.: When I was young I studied electronics but I got very tired, since they didnt suit me at all. So, I
decided to study Japanese at the university, where the level was very high. I took all courses, even
those which didnt interest me at all, like history, philosophy, art, religion etc entirely in Japanese, just to
learn the language proficiently. When I graduated and told my professors that I wanted to do my PhD in
martial arts I naturally faced suspicion and irony. The usual story of martial arts is abundant in non-
scientific and unproven inaccuracies such as: thats what my master told me, my art was revealed by
God himself, the scroll of my arts philosophy descended down from Heaven in a shining light etc.
Therefore, martial arts arent particularly appreciated in academic circles. I was allowed to attempt such
a thing, only because I was known and appreciated. So, in order to respond in the best possible way
and to reverse the prevailing general view, I had to first and foremost find authentic sources, which
would not be susceptible to any doubt. I had to meet, talk with and gain the trust of living masters from
authentic styles. I had to discover and study the prototypes of ancient scrolls (manuscripts), crosscheck
them and stay absolutely loyal to them. Finally, it was also necessary to invent the method with which I
would accomplish this task, since I was the first to attempt it. The subject was big, since apart from the
formalities of dozens of schools, like chronologic events, names etc, I needed to also find the
kinesiology of each school, how they fought, what weapons they used etc. In the end I gave in my
thesis, which contained 800 densely written pages and so I got my PhD. From all of this research I
learned that we shouldnt just suffice on what one or another says (even if its from Grandmasters) but
to look back on the sources. Only there does the authentic knowledge and truth exist.

What is the biggest difficulty for someone wanting to study the history of martial arts?

Dr.K.Z.: First of all one must of course be able to separate myth from reality, and that is very very hard.
To achieve that, first condition would be to distance himself from his choices, likes and dislikes. Usually
martial artists get very bonded with their master and their martial art and have difficulty in
acknowledging the truth, if it is different from the one their martial art supports.

Have you achieved that? Since the beginning you were, and still are, devoted to one specific art.
Can you distinguish the truth and the lie concerning your art, or could it be that your emotional
(sentimental) involvement with it has led you towards erroneous conclusions in your academic
research?

Dr.K.Z.: Since the beginning I had a separate view concerning my personal training and my academic
research. The training concerns what works and what doesnt in a body to body conflict. It also
concerns on how Ill train in such a way that I protect my body and be able to continue to train at an
even older age. Academic research is a totally different thing. Its exclusively occupied with the
historical facts and not with technique. So I have never mixed one with the other.

Correct, although emotional involvement with an art may possibly make a researcher want to
hide facts that arent convenient with its genealogy, or just reading the facts with special
glasses and filters, bringing them to his standards.

Dr.K.Z.: One of the basic principles of martial arts, the way I understand them, is above all honesty
with our own self. When I train I want to learn the real thing. When I attack Ishizuka sensei I dont fake
it, but with the intent to really hit him. Only that way can I see if what he transmits to me is real or not. I
ask the same from my students. So, since I behave like that in training it would be paradoxical of me
not to do the same with historical matters, which concern the past. If I discover something which is
different from what my master claims, I discuss it with him and after I form my final scientific opinion,
whichever that may be, I write it down. When you do a research, you have to be ready to overthrow
even the history of your style, or even to bring to light evidence that isnt convenient for you. Im always
ready to do it and I indeed do it. If I did it any other way, how would my university teachers trust me
enough to give me my PhD?

So, since youre absolute on that, may I ask you a question concerning Ninjutsus historical
validity. Mr. Dervenis, who was one of Ninjutsus pioneers in our country, claims that after
studies he has made he has concluded that Ninjas never existed and that this whole story is
just a manufacturing of both Hatsumi senseis and the movies, for merchandising (commercial,
business) purposes. As an academic, what is your opinion on this?

Dr.K.Z.: I know Mr. Dervenis claims very well. Firstly, I would like to say that hes an exceptional
(remarkable) person. I had met him in Japan many years ago, at a phase when I was completely out of
money and desperate. Without even knowing me, he gave me 10.000 yen which was very valuable for
me. Nevertheless, may I be allowed to mention that Mr. Dervenis firstly is not a historian and secondly
he doesnt speak Japanese. With all due respect towards him, my understanding on what he said is
that its entirely wrong. I believe that his assessment is a result of fragmentary research and studies he
has done from a few books written in English, while what he knows about Takamatsu sensei and Ninja
history is just what he was told by Hatsumi sensei (what he wanted to tell him, to be precise), who of
course had and still has his own reasons for all he says and does. Of course Mr. Dervenis didnt have
the chance to study the authentic ancient documents, as I have, so he naturally reached erroneous
conclusions. Also, please let me estimate that Mr. Dervenis wrote what he wrote being urged by his
personal bitterness and disappointment for the way Bujinkan has evolved through the years. I can
understand and I dont judge him for what he says. Nevertheless, to answer you a bit to the point, even
though I think that one interview is not the right place for such a big subject, Ninjas existence has been
proven via a multitude of ancient texts. In a 14th century chronicle, the Nochi no Kagami, there is an
extensive reference on the warriors of the Iga and Koga provinces, the Iga-shu and the Koga-shu, who
were specialized in sabotage attacks and espionage. All the names and techniques we find in that text
is related to the Ninjas. Of course, when researching ancient documentation on the subject we dont
search to find the name Ninja, which was invented at around 1680, but for actions and techniques
related to espionage and sabotage attacks, and they were completely different from what the samurai
did and the way they operated. From then onward someone needs to research very deeply in order to
find evidence, since of course any history of spies that moved in the dark isnt something that could
have been easily recorded. When doing an academic level research, we search to find different
sources that cross-reference our subject, we check who every person claiming anything we read is as
well as what his motives are in saying so, and we finally present all different opinions we find, thus
letting the reader draw his conclusions. This is real research and not reading five-ten books and hastily
providing arbitrary conclusions. Therefore I believe that Mr. Dervenis is wrong and, to whoever
interested, I prove that completely in my book The Ninja: Ancient Shadow Warriors of Japan (by
Tuttle).

You spoke before on the situation in the Bujinkan. Its a common secret that the situation is not
good. Whats your opinion?

Dr.K.Z.: The situation in the Bujinkan, and Im not talking about Hatsumi sensei of course but about the
organization, isnt just not good but desperate. Many people come and go to Japan with the only
purpose to buy grades, and while they cant even move decently correct they claim that they possess
the supreme killing art. But once theyre up against an MMA athlete for example, they are on the
ground. Unfortunately, most Bujinkan teachers are only capable against their students and thats not
honorary at all. When you do martial arts you have to be able to face anyone. If youre not able to do it,
then you should at least be silent and continue training. To possess a high grade means nothing. Ever
since martial arts were born, the grade of someone is what he can do in battle.

But, if the situation is so, who should take the responsibility if not the one leading the
organization, meaning Hatsumi sensei?

Dr.K.Z.: Here we have two things. Firstly, as we said above indeed the situation in the Bujinkan is very
bad, and for it the responsibilities can undoubtedly be shared and given in many directions. The second
thing is that Hatsumi sensei from a technical, theoretical, philosophical and fighting/combat point of
view is very very high and no one can doubt him in any way. Personally, Ive never been interested in
the organizational thing, the grades and the titles. It is something completely beyond me. My exclusive
interest is in training and learning. Personally I have no grade at all. My grade is what you see on the
tatami mats. You ask why this is all happening? How much of it is Hatsumi senseis fault or the
insatiable thirst of western students for grades and diplomas that dont correspond to reality? I really
dont know and Im certainly not the one to judge him on the organizational aspect. Dont forget that its
always been like that in martial arts, even when they were inside the monasteries. Even Funakoshi
sensei or Ueshiba sensei gave out belts for a price to people not deserving them or to people with
power. There were and there always will be obvious reasons for that. However, even though you can
buy a belt, its not the same with knowledge. You have to earn that. What I do know firsthand though, is
that in the Bujinkan there is authentic and deep knowledge for anyone interested and willing to try hard
for it. Anyone desiring just diplomas is out of my field of action and thought.

You talked before about the lack of fighting experience even from very highly ranked Ninjutsu
teachers, who cant stand in front of an MMA athlete. MMA people claim that its the lack of
sparring responsible for that in your art. What do you think about that?

Dr.K.Z.: I disagree. I dont mean that sparring doesnt have its value. It teaches you a lot of things like
distance, rhythm and timing and it also helps you check the validity of many techniques as well as your
ability to do them. However, sparring is governed by rules where as real combat isnt. Therefore
sparring isnt the panacea that will magically solve all problems. I believe that the problem in Ninjutsu
(apart from the false grades of course) is that attacks are never made in reality, with full force and
intent. Therefore the defenses are also loose and trainees never learn to work with correct speed and
power. Also, practitioners dont feel the need to learn the details of every move as well as correct body
alignment, necessary ingredients for a technique becoming efficient, since all is done in cooperation
and no one is in danger. Now you will say, if techniques were done that way, then we would have
injured or even dead on the tatami. Correct. That is exactly the reason why real martial arts are finally
aimed only for an elite group of dedicated people and not for everyone. From the moment of opening
the doors to everyone, then a martial art has to be diluted and in that way loses its battle
characteristics. Nevertheless, we can find the via media so that training can be realistic and at the
same time have the least possible injuries. And that is the bet for someone who wants to work
correctly.

Concluding our very interesting interview, I would like you to tell me what you consider most
important in a person practicing martial arts.

Dr.K.Z.: Honesty concerning ones intentions, seriousness and continuity concerning ones training,
and no blindness. If you discover along the way that something isnt right either with your master, with
your art or with you, dont hesitate to admit it and to change it at once, even if the price for that would
be to start over from the beginning.