Robert Davidson is enjoying the works of Grizzly Bear

25 March at 11:30

__________

Ian Shanahan

A YouTube link, please? so I can investigate and evaluate for myself...

25 March at 20:41

__________

Robert Davidson

Here you go Ian:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=grizzly+bear+youtube&l=1

25 March at 22:05

__________

Ian Shanahan

Thanks for the link, Robert. I endured the entire 550 of this pretentious video clip (it has massive
pretensions to profundity, e.g. the risible reference to hermetic self-similarity at the end [the bearded fellow
should instead have been sucked into the larger figures arse; at least that would have raised a smile...],
utterly disconnected from the mind-numbing banality and crudity of the music); so I honestly should say
suffered. The music therefrom is really just a paragon of the brain-dead generic vernacular shit one
(unfortunately) encounters on RAGE; pretty much indistinguishable from all the rest there. So, my verdict:
talentless garbage, devoid of distinctiveness FAIL.

As a knowledgeable and talented musician, with good ears and a brain, what are doing slumming it through
engagement with such unmitigated drivel? These pretentious clowns should be shot, dismembered and fed
to a grizzly bear. (At least then theyd be doing something useful: directly contributing to the survival of an
endangered species.) Mate, sorry, but I think youve swallowed one of the Big Lies of postmodern dogma ...
and its completely killed off your sense of artistic discernment.

Fri at 00:35

__________

Robert Davidson

Have you been reading Adorno or something Ian?

Fri at 05:48

__________

Robert Davidson

Veckatimest is the one, Katherine I have to confess not knowing their earlier uns (late starter)

~1~
Fri at 08:36

__________

Robert Davidson

BTW Its cool that Nico Muhly, one of the talented US young (well, hes actually 29) composers at the
moment, worked on the record

Fri at 08:50

__________

Ian Shanahan

No Robert, no Adorno of late. (But hes very often right, by the way...) I recognize pedestrian shit when I hear
it. Grizzly Bear? More like Koala on Valium.

I never again want to suffer the misfortune of being exposed to even a single millisecond more of their toxic
sonic excrescences or anything like it.

Nico Muhly talented on the basis of this sort of thing? Yeah, right the talent of a mule...

Fri at 09:01

__________

Robert Davidson

Your loss, Ian. Its not 1960 last time I checked.

Fri at 09:12

__________

Katherine Gough

Knife is from their earlier CD, Yellow House as Im sure you will have gathered :) I really like how their songs
are constructed. I think they have an intricacy that comes from an interesting approach to arranging for the
conventional rock band line-up. Have you heard Nicos album, Mothertongue?

Fri at 09:21

__________

Robert Davidson

KG from KG: I only put Knife there because it was the Im feeling lucky google link. Not my favourite of
theirs to be honest. I havent heard Nicos Mothertongue (see, this is why I need to be talking to you more
often to know what to check out)

Fri at 09:31

__________

Robert Davidson

~2~
Ian, how are your comments different from those of the British businessman ca.1910 saying, in response to a
question about how he liked Indian music, oh, but they dont have any music only drumming and
chanting. That is, arent you simply applying the rules of badminton to a game of water polo?

Fri at 09:32

__________

Ian Shanahan

Zero loss, Robert; indeed, my gain (since Ill be completely avoiding such brain-rotting acoustic pollutants).
Theres been SO MUCH degraded crap like this foisted on the unwitting public by the music industry since
1960; fortunately its counterpoised to some extent by considerable amounts of art-music of real quality
created over the same period. Ill be sticking with that, and top-notch modern jazz (e.g. Dave Holland),
among other excellent, intelligent things thanks very much. Youre welcome of course to immerse yourself in
as much shit like this as you can stand... But be warned, youll lose your sense of smell (if you havent done
so already).

Its just like the Borg in Star Trek, and probably even worse: Resistance is futile (but without the
assimilation of your cultural distinctiveness [or whatever the phrase is]; cretins such as these Koalas on
Valium wouldnt even know how to begin assimilating anything truly cultured). Well, I for one WILL be
resisting, including educating others through exposure to genuine modern musical art.

Fri at 09:35

__________

Robert Davidson

Well, youre entertaining Ian, Ill give you that, but I do have to confess that your comments make me feel like
Ive been transported to a dusty classroom 50 years ago...

Fri at 09:40

__________

Ian Shanahan

As for your latest post, Robert, the difference is that unlike the early-20th-century British businessman I
have bloody good ears, considerable musical training, an understanding of the cultural background and
motivations, plus high intelligence.

And yes, the rules ARE different: high art and low art have precious little in common, starting with their
goals. Real artistic gravitas is off the map for the latter; making truck-loads of money off musically gullible
fashion-zombies is not. (Hey, Robert, theres one of the Big Lies of postmodernity you appear not to have
swallowed... smiles Thats promising.)

Fri at 09:45

__________

Ian Shanahan

Dusty classroom of yesteryear? At least one might learn something valuable therein, unlike a garbage tip...

~3~
(And actually, my classroom encompasses things contemporaneous with yours.)

Fri at 09:51

__________

Robert Davidson

Gravitas is not intrinsically good. Different genres have different musical goals do you really believe the
Grizzly Bear guys are in it for the money? Boulez would make way more than any of them.

High art is often very lazy about engaging people where they are at. But thats ok.

Im with the American aborigines who dont have a concept of bad art they focus on it being an expression
of a person (received by them as a gift from the ancestors, but Id see those ancestors as the deeper parts of
oneself). To rank art in this very Western way strikes me as to rob people of their identity, in a way that is in
common with anti-human modernists like Le Courbousier [sic!]. Thats been tried and thankfully weve moved
on.

Fri at 09:51

__________

Ian Shanahan

Gravitas is never intrinsically bad.

Yes, the Grizzlies are in it for the money. Of course they are.

The fact that Boulez earns more might just be because hes deservedly famous and infinitely more
talented.

High art doesnt care about engaging people where they are at. And that is OK. But all people are
welcome and free to come to it.

(American aborigines etc.) People are welcome to their identities, so long as the talentless ones dont
impose theirs on me: thats just a waste of my time and energy (which could much better be spent listening
to the outpourings of genuinely talented identities), and is often psychically damaging to boot. Wheres self-
censorship gone? Everyone, in this age of Facebook, wants to exercise their right to express themselves
regardless of their (lack of) artistic gifts (or expertise). Gone are the days of honest self-evaluation and
reflection...

Le Corbusier? Problematic perhaps, but superior to the current climate of cultural ochlocracy, inverse
snobbery, and hegemony of the lowest common denominator.

Fri at 10:09

__________

Ian Shanahan

@KG, who wrote I think [Grizzly Bear] have an intricacy.... INTRICACY? Thats precisely the WRONG
adjective to use in regard to these bozos. If you want real intricacy, at whatever musical or extramusical level,
try the Ars Nova, or late Stravinsky, or Chris Dench, or even the Brecker Brothers.

Fri at 10:25

~4~
__________

Robert Davidson

Ian, you give the distinct impression of one who doth protest too much. BTW most indie musicians, including
famous ones, make way less than the national average wage.

Isnt musical biodiversity a good thing? Cant that coexist with excellence, existing in many different ways?
Are you listening to the wrong parameters in the music, focused on the priorities of a different genre?

Fri at 10:32

__________

Ian Shanahan

Protest too much? As a voice crying in the wilderness, Id very much like to protest more by making the
public sleepers awake to vastly better musical alternatives. Which is your job and responsibility too, Robert
(being a tax-payer-funded academic). My ill-health precludes me from doing so via media like community
radio...

Musicians wages. The actuality isnt the point; its what these people (indies, or whatever theyre called)
aspire to (i.e. being rich) that is the point. As a classical musician, I was NEVER in it for the money;
vernacularists are. But the internet i.e. free and illegal downloads has largely killed off the possibility of
anybody getting rich through music these days.

Musical biodiversity. Of course its good ... up to a point. We like biodiversity in the natural world too (dont
we?), but who wants flu virii let alone Ebola or HIV or Atrax Robusti (funnel-web spiders)? The same,
mutatis mutandis, is true in culture. The answer to your next question is, therefore, yes too, but... As for
your third question (which, Robert, is a good one), the only music-listening parameter I use is this: Does the
music stimulate everything in me, starting with my brain? This is equivalent to Does it fully engage me?.
The answer had better be yes, otherwise I discard it. So a lot of music of poor quality gets jettisoned out
of earshot (whenever I have control over my sonic environment);* whats left is more than enough to fill my
lifetime. (NB. More than 24 hours of music, in terms of playing time, is created every day across the planet.
So one had better be discerning!)

* Now thats REALLY a sore point: the extent to which, in modern life, music is FORCED into our ears
whether we like it or not. And the music itself is nearly always junk.

Fri at 11:07

__________

Robert Davidson

I mean your level of protest may be saying something about you Ian why does it bother you so much? Are
you feeling defensive?

Vastly better by your perspective, perhaps, but certainly not by mine (Ive never been able to swallow the idea
that the Sirius wonder [Karlheinz Stockhausen] had more to offer than, say, the Beatles), and I take my
responsibilities as an educator very seriously. The best way Ive found to expand peoples musical horizons is
to start where they are, validate that, and then make connections outward.

Maintaining a single yardstick for quality doesnt work so well in a multicultural world Ian its an arch-
conservative position thats unworthy of your talent and intellect. There are many ebola viruses amongst the

~5~
world of modernist art-music composition, as in indie pop, but its a bit mad to make blanket pre-emptive
judgements.

Re: 24 hours of music created each day: there are billions of people in the world you cant be friends with
them all but you dont jettison everyone else as useless morons just so you can select who to associate
with.

Fri at 12:37

__________

Robert Davidson

I know no musicians, vernacular especially, who are in it for the money. Indie musicians that I know are the
most committed musicians Ive met, and usually at least as engaged as classical composers.

Fri at 12:39

__________

Ian Shanahan

Level of protest. The dumbing down of everything, including cultural standards, alarms me greatly. We are
headed for perhaps already in a new Dark Age, where ignorance and mediocrity (or worse) are lauded
over things of real quality.

Defensive? Well, art of high standard is under real, serious attack on all fronts sometimes obviously,
sometimes more subtly.

Stockhausen: The conception and realization of his Gruppen alone vastly exceeds anything ever produced
by The Beatles (even with all the help they received). And for starters, their goals are distinct: Stockhausens
high; The Beatles pecuniary (both succeeded).

Education. No doubting you here, but Id say make connections UPWARD as quickly as possible.
Vernacular music shouldnt even be studied in academe (sociology / cultural studies departments aside):
what are students paying top dollar for? To learn about what they already know? Now that would be a rip-off.
Here are some composers of real gravitas for you to check out, Robert (all but the last American): Andrew
Rudin, Paul Koonce, Kyle Bartlett; David Chisholm (from Melbourne).

Yardsticks. By your metalogic, then, everything deserves its own yardstick, yes? Oh, how wonderful:
EVERYTHING is thereby great. THIS is the BIGGEST LIE of all from postmodern dogma.

Youre using a modernist argument (the arch-conservative jibe) against an arch-modernist in defence of
music that is in every respect primitive: the irony is delicious. But who is being conservative here? The
person defending ongoing innovation (me)? Or the person defending the primitive music (you)? And dont try
to tell me it isnt primitive: the harmonic and rhythmic devices in that music are as old as the hills.

Multicultural world. Art-music has always been multicultural; yet the same yardstick of excellence
applies...

Ebola viruses. Very few in modernist art-music thankfully, relative to the world of vernacular music where
whole continents (e.g. indie pop) consist of dangerous virii the acclamation of such shit, contributing to our
cultures slide towards wretchedness, is the symptom of such virii. I have, alas, heard enough of such
rubbish over the years to make such a blanket condemnation. Lifes too short, and the corpus of good music
too enormous, to waste time on musical areas that are wastelands in the hope of exhuming one or two
gems.

~6~
 last paragraph. Remember the bell curve...

Sat at 00:53

__________

Ian Shanahan

So you know a few non-greedy pop musos, Robert. Big deal. They are not the majority. What runs the music
industry? money (loads of it). Thats why so many youngsters want to be recognized by it. What do you
think drives those who want to be on that abomination Australian Idol? Altruism? Cmon...

I expect a high degree of commitment from all wannabee professional musicians. But if they lack talent and
Im yet to encounter personally a pop music practitioner who possesses any real talent then who gives a
damn about commitment.

I know a bass player with the Sydney Symphony Orchestra [SSO] who walked out of a recording gig with k.d.
lang because the latter was somehow incompetent; I know sound engineers at Studios 301 in Sydney who
have spent countless hours editing out the errors of pop singers (Ive witnessed it for myself!); Ive seen rock
musos who cant even tune their fucking guitars, let alone play them properly. Very few of the buggers can
even read music, for Gods sake! And you think people of this ilk have talent?! GIMME A BREAK...

Sat at 01:05

__________

Robert Davidson

I admit I find it exceedingly difficult to relate to your perspective here Ian. Would you bag a Ghanain drummer
because they cant even read music? (I wouldnt criticise a member of the SSO for not being able to work
out by ear the nuances of a record, including its references). It sounds totally absurd. How is it different from
Roger Scrutons incompetent criticism of R.E.M. because they didnt use common-practice voice leading?
Theres no one in the SSO who could do what k.d. lang does keep a whole crowd spellbound with the
subtle nuances of lyric delivery, with a compelling projection of persona and a web of rich reference.
Theatricality, grace shes a rare talent. Put any member of the SSO in her place and see how they go
(sure, she couldnt do what they do either).

I think youre utterly mistaken about the motivations of musicians working in popular music, indie and other
genres. Maybe you should get to know some of them before assuming/projecting. The music industry is not
run by musicians, and most of them would be quite happy to see it change/die. Australian Idol is hardly
representative, and its a billion light years away from Grizzly Bear.

Id say Stockhausens aims were much lower than those of the Beatles narcissistic dreams of grandiose
domination, ending with bizarrely loopy insanity. Surrounded by sycophantic twerps, he got away with such
infantile bumbling. Still, he (like Wagner) wrote some good music. None of it comes close, for me, to the best
of the Beatles.

Sat at 07:20

__________

Robert Davidson

Re education my philosophy is that, yes, we teach people what they already know that is, we educate
people, which means (a bit like therapy), were drawing out what they implicitly know, showing them how to

~7~
make it explicit and to find motivation to move beyond it. Thats education worth paying for self discovery
and expansion.

Moving upward what, a bit like English colonialists going to Tahiti to civilize the natives with Christian
culture?

Sat at 07:28

__________

Robert Davidson

Probably I shoulda said French colonialists...

Sat at 08:23

__________

Robert Davidson

BTW Ian what do you think of John Cages receptive philosophy?

Sat at 09:15

__________

Ian Shanahan

Musical literacy. A Ghanain drummer playing their own music isnt expected to read dots. So no, of course
not. But if that same drummer wanted to play in a context / tradition where reading the dots is expected,
then thats another matter entirely. And if you want to understand Western harmony, then an ability to read
music notation is essential. Your SSO example surely depends on the record!

Roger Scruton is not good on music, I agree. R.E.M. might just be incompetent (as Scruton implies), or
they might be being harmonically subversive. In either case, what I have heard of from them was rubbish.

k.d. lang. I was referring to an incident of basic musical incompetence on her part. Your description of her
talents reminded me of those of Adolf Hitler in delivering his oratories. Mass brain-washing isnt too hard to
achieve over the hoi polloi. And I do know SSO members who achieve the same thing, e.g. members of
Synergy Percussion.

Pop musicians. Ive known a few over the years. Most of them e.g. a lot of UWS [University of Western
Sydney] students, some professionals wanted to make money out of it, become a star, blah blah blah.
Some of them remain friends, but I never talk music with them because (a) we have nothing in common on
that front, and (b) theyd have a snowballs chance in hell of understanding what I do (the theoretics, I mean)
many just arent smart enough. BTW, I hope the music industry dies to: then I wont automatically in my
day-to-day life be exposed to so much low-brow crap.

Australian Idol. The banal music of Grizzly Retarded Koala is very close indeed to the banality of
Australian Idol. The whole lot is nothing but shit, which I wish would disappear to make space for something
more substantial.

-Stockhausen. Do you know his whole oeuvre, Robert? Granted, there is some composerly stupidity (the
hippie shit from the late 1960s) on his part. (His madness is irrelevant; its the music that counts...) But his
musical vision, his ideas (e.g. on musical time), are almost infinitely more profound and potentially fecund
than The Beatles (however influential the latter were). The best of The Beatles is puerile compared to the

~8~
best of Stockhausen; and they knew it: Why else would they have put him on the cover of Sergeant Pepper?
And dont get me started on Paul McCartneys Standing Stones orchestral piece. All that help and it was still
utter tripe in the end proof if ever I heard it of musical inferiority in comparison to the likes of Stockhausen.

Sat at 14:46

__________

Ian Shanahan

Education. What you describe is merely the very beginnings of education (the etymology of this word, from
the Latin [ex-ducere], being to lead out of ignorance). This should be taking place in high school, not in
university further evidence of the dumbing down of Australia; so many of our universities are anything-but
[leading out of ignorance] these days... I expect prospective first-year music students to (a) be musically
literate (i.e. able to read [Western] music notation), (b) have some knowledge of the art-music canon, (c)
have a basic knowledge of functional harmony, (d) have reasonable aural skills, (e) preferably have a good
general knowledge (increasingly rare these days; bloody kids dont read books any more, preferring to play
stupid computer games instead), and (f) perhaps most importantly of all, a mind like a sponge i.e. a huge
thirst to learn more, BEYOND what they already know and imagine! THATS what I mean by upwards. (And
incidentally, in relation to Tahiti and European colonialists: Christianity is not a culture, so your Christian
culture makes no sense.)

John Cage. Just after Cage died, I delivered a lecture (including performances) live on ABC radio that
ended with the words Cage is Dead in precisely the same sense as Boulez pronounced of Schoenberg; I
can send you a copy if you like, since it articulates my views on Cage more fully. All Ill say here is that Cage
is (indirectly) responsible for many of the excesses of the 1960s Avant-Garde and Experimentalists
(including Stockhausen at his worst). Too much receptiveness leads to a lowering of standards, and a
toleration of garbage that should be condemned as such.

Sat at 15:08

__________

Robert Davidson

Heres where we can agree Ian Standing Stone is really awful. I really do like a lot of what Stockhausen
composed (I just get extremely annoyed by his ego-tripping), particularly the electronic work (do you include
Stimmung amongst the late 60s stuff you dont like?).

Id be interested in the 92 ABC lecture for sure. But it does seem our perspectives are almost diametrically
opposed I see Cages influence as such a huge breath of fresh air, and feel like were currently in a
marvellous golden age of music, and of culture generally. Isnt there more participation in the modernist
music youre defending than ever, anyway? Where are the threats youre talking about? Weve got several
amazingly good groups in Australia alone playing new complexist music that wasnt going on thirty years
ago.

As for education, many interpret the etymology to mean draw out knowledge rather than lead out from
ignorance. What I describe should be happening in high school. It should also be happening in pre-school,
university, and throughout life I continue to seek experiences for myself to allow it. Your requirements
sound good, though theyd bar many of the worlds best musicians one reason those sorts of approaches
have been challenged.

I havent been shifted from my view that youre confusing taste with discernment.

Sat at 15:25

~9~
__________

Robert Davidson

Yes, Christianitys not a culture, except in the sense of a virus being a culture perhaps (cf. Richard Dawkins)

Sat at 15:27

__________

Ian Shanahan

Virii live in cultures. Nor is Christianity a virus: the latter possesses the potential to kill its host; Christianity
does not. BTW, the good Prof. Dawkins with whom I have had friendly dialogue! is ignorant of
metamathematics (a typical biologist in that regard). Many of his arguments thereby topple, on purely
scientific grounds; theres no need, in arguing against him, to even introduce theology, about which he is pig-
ignorant anyway...

Sat at 15:43

__________

Robert Davidson

I knew I had something wrong about that virus/culture relationship. Christianity does sometimes kill its host,
in the form of martyrs, no?

Sat at 16:03

__________

Ian Shanahan

Sure, Stockhausen was a crazy egomaniac. But that can be overlooked, given his music ... particularly
when one remembers that the poor bastard was employed pulling corpses out of bombed buildings as a
teenager.

Stimmung is a bit of a mystery to me trance-inducing, which I dont think is ever a good thing. Its
impressive in a weird kind of way, though.

Cage. My paper takes this tack: in short, hes analogous to Einstein on the one hand admirable (for
opening things up, as you note); on the other, responsible for musical atrocities caused by others who took
liberties.

Threats etc. Art-music is increasingly marginalized by the media, government (remember that fool ex-
rocker Peter Garrett wanting to shut down the Academy in Melbourne?), funding bodies (do you know whats
happened with the OzCouncil [Australia Council for the Arts] funding the AMC [Australian Music Centre], for
instance?), high-school curricula, and even tertiary institutions! For the public, it is a memory that is fading
ever more.

Locally, compared to the 1980s, there are a lot less concerts. Percentage-wise, Id say theres a lot less
playing of genuinely modern music (by which I do not mean Ross Edwards, Paul Stanhope, Elena Kats-
Chernin and other such pap). What groups in Australia nowadays play complexist music? ELISION are in
England. Two of the main players from that Melbourne group Libra (Mark Knoop, Carl Rosman) now reside
overseas. AustraLYSIS has changed tack... No Robert, you paint too rosy a picture.

~ 10 ~
Sat at 16:03

__________

Robert Davidson

BTW impressed you had dialogue with Dawkins

Sat at 16:03

__________

Ian Shanahan

Such martyrs are killed because of their Christian faith, not by it.

I utterly agree with your view of education Robert. However, my approach doesnt bar anybody: the worlds
best musicians youre thinking of might simply be required to acquire my prerequisites prior to them being let
in the gate. One year at UWS, I interviewed a prospective student, Jake, who is an innately fine musician.
But he lacked some of those prerequisites, to the extent that he would certainly have failed his first semester
in several subjects had I admitted him to the degree. (This would merely have wasted his time and money
and ours and possibly injured his love of music.) So I told him there and then my decision, where and how
he could fill his knowledge-hiatus within 12 months, and invited him to reapply the following year. Jake did so,
took the degree and did quite well in the end a top bloke to boot!

I think where we differ, Robert, is on the yardsticks front: youre a postmodernist(?); Im not...

Ill forward the Cage paper now...

Sat at 16:19

__________

Robert Davidson

Garretts (btw a very good artist I think) reasons for wanting to close ANAM werent all bad, from my sources
there was a culture of irresponsibility and entitlement that needed fixing. Now that Paul Deans the head, I
think theyll be on a good footing (and Bretts been doing good work there).

Stockhausens story was indeed tragic etc. explains but doesnt excuse megalomania, but I agree, it
shouldnt stop us being fascinated by his music (I confess Stimmung is one of my faves of his, which is why
I asked).

Isnt the AMC back in the good books now? They just had to map out their Key Performance Indicators.

Libras still going (isnt it?) even with Carl and Mark away, and members of ELISION still live here and are
doing shows. Offspring are doing modernist (including complexist) music, as are Vanessa Tomlinson and
others, stuff at Totally Huge and other festivals Id have to think about it to make a fuller list, but my
impression is that there are more and better recordings, more activity than ever. Theres more of everything
than ever, which is why it can seem marginalised (Id say theres more critical response than ever too, just
that its on the internet amongst a huge load of other stuff).

I really like a lot of that music.

Poor old Elena, having her music called pap. I really like her work. That description would almost certainly
cover Topology and my work, as we have a lot of the same attributes as Elena, Paul and Ross.

~ 11 ~
Sat at 16:20

__________

Robert Davidson

I wouldnt call myself a postmodernist Im very critical indeed of some of the anti-rational, relativistic, anti-
science writing of people like Foucault, Lacan, Andrew Ross etc.

But I think many common modernist assumptions dont take enough account of anthropology, or of
knowledge of how the brain works (esp. from evolutionary understandings), and are leftovers from a colonial
age. Postmodern ideas I do find sometimes useful in thinking about culture.

Good story about Jake.

Sat at 16:31

__________

Ian Shanahan

AMC. The rationale, Im told personally by John Davis, for the OzCow [Australia Council for the Arts]
attitude was that the AMC wasnt financially viable. But surely the OzCow exists to fund worthy (even more
so, crucial) cultural endeavours that will never balance the books because thats not what theyre about! In a
culture that largely ignores art-music, how the hell could the AMC be expected to be profitable? The OzCow
is guilty of laissez-faire, economic-rationalist bullshit!

Activity. Id like to think you are right. Not sure about Libra. Offspring is all weve got ensemble-wise in
Sydney, and their gigs arent all that frequent. Individuals and small groups (duos, trios) are another matter.

Elena Kats-Chernin ... what a sell-out. (I was being polite in calling it pap). Im not up to date on Topology
or your latest work. But what I heard ca.10 years ago was certainly pretty good. :-)

Sat at 16:36

__________

Robert Davidson

Agree that Ozco [Australia Council for the Arts] should fund stuff that needs it like preserving rare and
exquisite plant species that are endangered.

You can hear some recent Topology at youtube under topologyrob.

Sat at 16:44

__________

Ian Shanahan

Cage paper now sent to your qut.edu.au address (via YouSendIt).

I think modernist philosophy could well do with a deeper knowledge of anthropology. (A personal interest of
mine is the work of Richard Rudgley, who shows how we often underestimate the achievements of ancient
even prehistoric or antediluvian civilizations. Much of my own work is motivated by a desire to transcend

~ 12 ~
the limitations of culture, to make a sophisticated ur-music that somehow has the potential to speak to
everybody at some level. A pipe-dream? Hmmm... I hope not!). On the other hand, I remain rather suspicious
of neurobiology etc. which strikes me as speculative at best. What Ive encountered here fails to account for
peoples abilities to make sense somehow of what theorists (like Lerdahl et al.) would regard as incoherent.
Likewise, I find the postmodern tendency to critique no bad thing.

Sat at 16:53

__________

Ian Shanahan

Cheers for now Robert. War averted! Ill try to find your YouTube links.

Sat at 16:56

__________

Robert Davidson

Dont suppose, Ian, you could send that yousendit link to topologyrob@gmail.com? I dont have the qut
[Queensland University of Technology] email anymore working at UQ [University of Queensland] now.

Sat at 17:01

__________

Ian Shanahan

I just watched your Above Ground 1. Sorry, Robert, but Im not in the slightest bit interested in, let alone
engaged by, such tonalist/minimalist doodling. By about 2 I was thoroughly bored shitless by the
repetitiveness. Even the little rhythmic gear-shifts are clichs nowadays; ditto that timbral world. This sort of
scalar+pulsed tinkering is, in 2010, oh soooooooo bland, undistinctive, and pass...

I then watched the beginning of the Kransky Sisters thing just enough to indicate that I was in for more of
the same. Is this all Topology does nowadays? If so, then heres one non-audient.

I then read some of the over-the-top fawning adulation. These people must truly be culturally ignorant! What
was proferred was in no way special. Such music needs a great deal more than what was on offer to pull my
ears in...

It all sounds like yet another crass American import, the kind of stuff being spewed out by lots of young US
(de)composers at present so much sound, so little to distinguish between its originators. Again it reminds
me of Star Treks Borg: We will assimilate you ... resistance is futile. Riley, Glass and Reich have a great
deal to answer for (even more than Cage!).

Sorry, mate. I know Im being blunt, but no nastiness is intended, honestly.

Sat at 17:33

__________

Ian Shanahan

Paper redirected, as requested!

~ 13 ~
Sat at 17:33

__________

Robert Davidson

Well, Im hardly surprised youre welcome to your opinion, of course suffice to say that mine is, again,
very, very different and I think you are so, so wrong! One can but hope that you wont be on the Ozco panel
deciding whether or not we get funding :)

We do quite an enormous range of things perhaps you might be more interested in the solo stuff Ive been
doing with speech: (cant link here, so search for): NaturenurturePinker-jamesFight

Sat at 18:01

__________

Ian Shanahan

Well, Robert, if Topology is so popular then it shouldnt need OzCow funding at all, now should it? (Anyway,
as an academic being paid a salary to conduct research [which includes your compositions, these earning
government money for UQ already], you yourself should not be going anywhere near the OzCow that would
be unethical double-dipping. Ditto for other academics in the group, if any.) But you neednt worry: us
hardcore pariah-modernists have been well and truly sidelined and discriminated against by the OzCo
and other officialdom for decades now ... thanks to the likes of Koehne, Mills, Vine, and now (probably)
Hindson several of whom have been corruptly feathering their own nests. Your hope is just typical of the
hegemony of such reactionariness in this country. My case rests...

Your work with speech does pique my interest; and I well remember your McDonalds piece the interaction
with current affairs (yet timeless subtexts) and electroacoustics is quite distinctive and intelligent. I also recall
a percussion and tape piece by Graeme Leak from the 1980s the rhythmic detail of which was based upon
(and set against) Vietnamese speech-patterns and suprasegmentals.

Besides the tonalist/minimalist drek and speech work, what else does Topology do? Anything genuinely
new?

Sat at 23:12

__________

Robert Davidson

Leaving aside the double-dipping accusations (I assure you I am very ethical about such matters), not sure
where youre getting the idea that Topology is so popular (would that we were, though the Ozco funding
remains the smaller part of our budget). Were an Ozco/Arts Qld key organisation, with a board, and my pay
from performances goes to the uni to buy back my academic time. We see ourselves moving forward by
relying less on govt funding in future, and this is all on track.

On the subject of libel, Im chuffed that you remembered McLibel. Id be very curious to hear Graemes
piece, particularly as Im writing a paper on the topic Ill get in touch with him. Ive been doing a great deal
of this approach.

Heres one:

http://ia310828.us.archive.org/0/items/NaturenurturePinker-jamesFight/pinker-james-fight.mp3

~ 14 ~
I feel we definitely do much that is new (novelty is overrated though, in my opinion, and was overdone in the
old modernist days more important is to be authentic, individual and expressive, which I certainly believe
we are). Strange to complain about tonalism virtually all musics tonal (broadly defined), so whats the
issue? Scales are also ubiquitous its like criticising a writer for using verbs, or a chef for using vegetables.

I think our biggest contribution is to better understand processes of collaboration that embrace diversity, real
meetings and transformations, and to move beyond the idea of music as works by composers (our
collaborative composing/improv[isation] process involving the whole group is quite new in our field I think).
Its not drek its good, and its worth the funding. Leading practitioners from theatre, dance etc. understand
that.

And my piece Above Ground, of which Im proud, is highly praised by many luminaries, including Terry Riley
and a number of the highest-ranking Oxbridge music scholars. Thats ok I dont mind that you find it trite,
but I profoundly disagree. I just think youre not really hearing it, if youll forgive me.

Innovation, even if so important, does not consist only in technical innovation in dimensions like pitch and
rhythm. Id venture to argue that theres been more innovation in popular music since 1840 than in art music
in any case (yes, Im keeping a straight face I really mean it), but I dont think innovation is really the issue.

Anyway, what have you been up to, composing-wise, Ian? Very curious... I always really liked your music,
and your approach to improvisation (my favourite thing in the whole world of music I just wish I was better
at it).

Sat at 23:56

__________

Ian Shanahan

The double-dipping thing wasnt an accusation, just a reminder...

On the basis of what I heard ONLY, I definitely question whether Topology is doing much that is new ...
authentic, individual and expressive. I very much had the impression of run-of-the-mill, more-of-the-same
1990s minimalism. Big Yawn. This adds NOTHING in any real sense to Australian culture; and, as such, is
not worthy of government funding. I suspect all that hot sun in Qld has fried a few brains...

Above Ground. I wouldnt be taking too much notice of Terry Riley (well, it is his thing, after all) or
Oxbridge scholars (musicologists are not to be trusted: they have their own agendas). And I AM really
hearing it! Hell, if I could write quick enough, I could notate it as I heard it, as Mozart was able to do. Really.
Its pretty straightforward to my ears...

Im not complaining about tonalitIES per se, only certain of this paradigms manifestations...

More innovation in popular music since 1840 than in art-music? BULLSHIT! Look at how much the pop
world steals from art-music composers, decades later. This includes the very instruments themselves e.g.
saxophones; Yamaha DX7, ...

On a personal note, Ill ring you sometime. Ive been in a world of shit for quite a long time, in terms of
health particularly (this might explain my tetchiness...). Just now getting back to composing... And its been a
couple of years since my last performing gig (with The Renaissance Players!). I do miss improvising, which
keeps me on my toes. Tell you what: in the meantime, Ill e-mail you the text of my PhD, in the hope that you
find it edifying and useful.

Yesterday at 03:07

__________

~ 15 ~
Robert Davidson

Sorry Ian, I think the piece appears to be beyond your capacities (in this particular area) you simply havent
had enough experience with popular music to get it. Being able to notate it by ear is entirely beside the point.
Maybe you should read Nicholas Cook.

That would be good to talk Im sorry to hear about your illness, and thanks for the PhD and article on Cage.
I read the Cage one. Did Warren Burt read it? I remember he had a big thing about Cage being a composer
more than a philosopher, which was also the point of James Pritchetts admirable book on Cages musical
approaches.

Yesterday at 07:14 via Email reply

__________

Ian Shanahan

Sorry, Robert, but can you not get it that I REALLY DO get it? (Or at the very least that thats a distinct
possibility?) Ive heard plenty of minimalism and minimalist offshoots dating from the early 1960s onwards
thats really the crucial lineage in this case and some popular music from various genres over the same
period (Zappa, jazz rock, funk, Chick Corea and Return to Forever, Prince, etc. etc.). For example, heres
a 1990s group I really dig: Groove Collective (particularly their 1998 CD Dance of the Drunken Master).
Its the everyday crass stuff I avoid like the plague. Honestly, though, Ive been around long enough and
detailedly studied a broad enough array of musics from various cultures to be able to evaluate a piece of
musics worth (belonging to the art-music tradition) from all possible aspects... And you would classify your
piece as art music, surely?

Funny you mention Nicholas Cook: I did a seminar with him (Matthew Hindson was in the same class!) at the
University of Sydney when he was a guest lecturer there around 1990 on structural perception. I know his
analysis book well, and that little book called Music An Introduction (or whatever). Both are quite good. Is
it the latter text you are thinking of? I didnt concur with absolutely everything he opined therein but it is
ages since I read it.

Not sure whether Warren read my Cage thing; knowing him, hed probably hate it! (Warren seems blind to
the many foibles of American music...) Whats the title of Pritchetts book? That is new to me and sounds
interesting. To me Cage was a quite good composer who also produced some execrable crap; as such hes
in good company!

Ill phone this week. smile

Yesterday at 23:25

__________

Robert Davidson

Wed better agree to disagree before we use up all the space on the internet later, dude

Today at 07:44

__________

Ian Shanahan

LOL!

~ 16 ~
Do you know the music of Groove Collective? Theyre funky and intelligent!

Today at 09:13

__________

Robert Davidson

Definitely Groove Collective are excellent. I like their version of I Want You (Beatles)

Today at 09:24

__________

Ian Shanahan

See Rob?, I aint so unhip after all! grin

Today at 09:29

__________

~ 17 ~