Jazz Guitar/Classical Guitar:

A Symbiotic Relationship
By Dr. Steven Kinigstein

Part I
Bucky Pizzarelli, jazz guitarist extraordinaire,
informed me that he had recently gotten a Ramirez clas-
sical guitar. More than thirty years earlier, Mike Gari
was proudly showing me his newly acquired Contreras.
These two great jazz guitarists are not the only ones Ive
known who have sustained a serious and devoted
involvement with the classical guitar. Look at the voice Bill Wurtzel Steve Kinigstein, Gene Bertoncini and Mike Gari
leading in any chord-melody by Howard Morgen, where
SK: If youre playing your archtop, and a classical
the depth of his study of the classical guitar most obvi-
tune is called, do you use a pick?
ously displays its influence. The manner in which the
BW: Just fingerstyle.
voices move is completely logical; yet they sacrifice
neither warmth nor beauty. I could go on citing exam-
SK: Gene, whats your primary guitar?
ples of major jazz guitarists who play the classical gui-
GB: I play a lot of solo guitar, so I use a classical guitar
tar or classical guitar repertoire, but that falls short of
made by John Buscarino. (Its amplified, as well.)
the point of this article. Moreover, there are many clas-
sical guitarists who have made an enduring commitment
SK: Does it have a built-in pickup?
to jazz. (The comments of two of them, David Burgess
GB: Yes.
and David Richter will be seen in Part II of this article.)
Clearly, elements exist in each of these genres that have
SK: Do you ever use a guitar that does not have a
managed to attract players of one to the other.
built-in pickup?
(Certainly, the benefits to be had from the understanding
GB: Yes, a Velasquez.
of voice leading on the classical instrument, though
great, cannot be the sole reason for involvement on the
SK: That brings up another question: Do you find
part of jazz guitarists.) In order to get an idea, at least in
that the question of amplification influences your
part, of what is at the root of this reciprocal attraction
technique? Do you play a piece differently on the
(and if there might be, indeed, a symbiosis), I assembled
Velasquez from the way you would play it on the
a group of virtuoso guitarists from each of these two
Buscarino?
genres. The guitarists participating in this article, which
GB: Sometimes theres a different feel. Theres a differ-
will be presented in two parts, are (listed alphabetical-
ent kind of fulfillment when you are making all the
ly): Roni Ben-Hur, Gene Bertoncini, David Burgess,
sound yourself. I feel a little better when all the sound is
Mike Gari, Howard Morgen, Bucky Pizzarelli, David
created just by the guitar. Its impossible to work that
Richter, Bill Wurtzel, and Jimmy Wyble. In the first seg-
way in most situations when youre playing with other
ment of Part I, which took place on August 6, 2008, we
musicians, or in a large concert hall. Even with that,
will hear from Gene, Mike, and Bill.
sometimes its a joy to play with just a microphone and
a guitar. Ive gotten so used to playing on the Buscarino;
SK: Am I correct in assuming that all three of you
I feel more at home on it. All my latest recordings have
consider yourselves to be primarily jazz guitarists?
been done with just a microphone and the Buscarino.
All: Yes.
SK: What about you, Mike?
SK: When you are playing classical repertoire, do
MG: (Laughing) Ive sort of gotten into a bastardized
you use a classical guitar or an archtop?
version of classical and jazz. So at this stage, I use a
BW: I can use an archtop; but when its going to be a lot
pick, and fingers, and I use that technique on any guitar.
of classical pieces, I use a nylon-strung Bellido or an
Im not going to get the nuances that I would with a
amplified Takamine.
classical guitar; but somehow Im able to make myself

Just Jazz Guitar I

February 2009 Page 89
happy, and sometimes Im able to convey that feelingf
when Im playing for people.
SK: Gene, what attracted you to classical guitar?
Did you start out playing jazz on a classical guitar?
GB: No. I always had an archtop, a DAquisto. When I
was studying with Chuck Wayne- in my college days, he
told me to listen to this recording of Julian Bream. It
was called The Art of Julian Bream. Ill never forget
that record; it just changed my life completely.

SK: What was the initial action that you took?

Mike Gari and Bucky Pizzarelli
SK: Knowing your playing as well as I do, I am cer-
tain that your combination of fingers and pick is a
matter of choice, rather than anything imposed by
limitations.
MG: Actually, I surrendered, I just surrendered! At one
time I could really play it well that way (with fingers);
but I just could not get it to the next level. It wasnt
going to happen. I just had to acknowledge it. I said to
myself, I like this stuff. I like hearing it, and I want to
be able to play it for other people too. This was my
compromise.
GB: Well, a bunch of the guys were studying with
Albert Valdes-Blaine. Barry Galbraith, Howie Collins
those guys. So I immediately started studying with
Albert Valdes-Blaine. He was the one who introduced
me to a Velasquez guitar. He used to have a student
model there. It had wonderful tone. I just dove into the
repertoire and studied. I really started to think about
playing some of the repertoire. But I was always a jazz
player, and always earning money as a jazz player.
Pretty soon, when I was accompanying singers or doing
a record date, if it was requested, I would sneak in a
classical guitar. Like if I was accompanying Lena
Horne, I used to do some solo stuff. Then I started doing
it with just that (classical) guitar. I always had the clas-
sical guitar with me to practice. I got to be known as
being able to play it, so I started getting record dates.
There were films where they needed a classical guitar,
and Hubert Laws albums used classical guitar. There
were very few guys doing it. Jay Berliner was one. Hes
a giant! Jay Berliner could sit down and sight-read any-
thing.

SK: Bill, what attracted you to the classical guitar? SK: I actually did a session once with Jay Berliner.
BW: A friend of mine said that if I wanted to improve He was amazing.
my musicianship, it would be a good idea to take a cou- GB: I feel so lucky. First of all, I fell in love with Julian
ple of classical lessons. I was lucky to find a great Breams playing. Then, all this stuff happened. And at
teacher, Yasha Kofman, and was hooked. just about the same time, the bossa nova came to our
country, and I became friendly with Joao Gilberto. Joao
SK: In what ways do you feel that it improved your used to borrow my Velasquez whenever he had a con-
general musicianship? cert. I still have the marks where he used to scotch tape
BW: Sound, how to make the guitar sing, how to press the set list. (laughing) That was on my old Velasquez.
the strings, reading, familiarity with the fingerboard, the Then I got a new one. Everything that Ive accom-
ability to relax and live in the moment plished individualistically has been because I started
playing classical.
SK: Did the benefits of those things that you learned
(for example, how to make the guitar sing more) SK: Mike, what attracted you to the classical guitar?
carry over to your archtop as well? MG: Well, my first teacher was Howard Morgan, who
BW: Definitely. was big on finger style. He was always using his fingers.
That got me into it. Then, of course, I was listening to
SK: What about when youre playing your archtop people like Gene, and Chuck Wayne, and they were
with a pick? playing great classical. Also, the whole concept of using
BW: Yes. Sound above all. A little vibrato goes a long way. your fingers opens up so many things. Even playing
Page 90 Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009
jazz. Not only as far as chords; but also single notes,
climbing up with the fingers instead of with the pick.
You hear Jack Wilkins doing that a lot. I just love clas-
sical music. I wish I could play it as well as Gene;it
takes a lot of dedication. Its made a tremendous differ-
ence in my playing. Having a foot in both jazz and clas-
sical music makes you feel so confident. You feel like
you can draw from both of them.
GB: If I could make a point: I think having studied clas-
sical repertoire led me to the whole idea of preparing
arrangements. It wasnt as if I was just using stuff I
knew to play a gig. The whole thing is about sitting
down and working out something.
SK: Voice leading, etc.?
GB: Yeah, everything. And writing it. Almost like a
classical piece. It represented a departure from the stuff
I already knew. The classical technique will afford you
these possibilities in playing.
SK: Ill address this question to everybody: Were
already finding that both these genres have a great
deal in common. Is there element in jazz or classical
guitar that you would view as exclusive to one of the
genres? Is there even anything about either of them
that is, in fact, contradictory.
BW: The time feel is different. In classical music, syn-
copation is open to interpretation; but in jazz it leads the
way.
GB: I play more linearly on the archtop. More lines, like
a saxophone player. Although, Ive been working on
some chord solos. One of the greatest guys doing that
now is Russell Malone. Hes brilliant. Hes doing that
on the archtop, with a pick thats not easy. I find the
chord-solo stuff, and the combination chords and linear
things are easier on the classical guitar.
SK: Mike, What about you?
MG: I would agree with Bill. It has to be a completely
different feel you dont want to be swinging. Im
always amazed the way classical guitarists play it the
way it is. And the time is not stiff, yet its perfect. The
whole flow is so beautiful when its done right. God
help you if youre a jazz player trying to swing. Gene is
the only one who makes it work. (to Gene) When you
blend some of those things, like when youre playing
How Insensitive and you lead it into Chopin! Its just
great.
GB: Bill is using more classical stuff in his gigs
MG: Yeah, I heard him doing it the other night. I told
him it was fabulous. (to Bill) Remember, when you
Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009
played the Capriccio?
GB: Marvelous, for an old guy.
All: (laughter lots of it)
BW: Yeah, when I order three minute eggs, they make
me pay in advance.
Gene, Bill and Mike
(Authors note: In fairness to Bill, hes really not an old
guy no matter how well he plays classical repertoire.
Lets say hes an excellent and exuberant example of
macho middle age.)
BW: At 9 years old, I taught myself and played by ear.
I played professionally very young; but couldnt read
music. In my twenties, I studied with some fine jazz gui-
tarists, but it didnt come easily. I studied classical gui-
tar to become a better musician. When I heard Julian
Bream and John Williams, I thought, How the hell
could I do that? And the written music seemed impos-
sible. Yasha Kofman helped me stay calm and practice
very slowly. If you cant play it slow, you cant
play it fast. Yasha is my main man. (www.classicalgui-
tarny.com)
SK: Actually every time Ive heard you, you were
wonderful.
BW: Thanks. I love the music, and I get a lot of joy from
it. Classical guitar is worth the effort. Charlie Byrd
came to one of my gigs. On a break, I told him that play-
ing the tremolo in Tarregas Recuerdos de la Alhambra
was a bitch and asked if he had any advice. He said, I
know what you mean. Ive been working on it for forty
years. In other words, they dont give it away.
SK: This question is addressed to everybody. Do you
find yourself drawn mostly to repertoire written
specifically for the guitar, or are you equally attract-
ed to transcribed pieces that were originally com-
posed for other instruments?
GB: I dont look at anything written for guitar anymore.
I just like to do my own arrangements. I did go through
Page 91
a period when I studied the repertoire the Sor Studies,
pieces by Lennox Berkeley. Then I started doing my
own transcriptions and arrangements Rachmaninoff
Vocalise, Chopin, stuff that really appealed to me. For
a while I did do the repertoire, a lot of it. Asturias and
all that stuff. Never got to be that great at it.
pieces. If anything, it adds some colors to them. I feel
blessed with a certain amount of taste that has been
developed over the years. What Im trying to say is that
I think I know when something is okay when Ive put
my individual stamp on it. Just the idea of playing that
piece is a gift.

SK: Mike, what about you?

MG: Im pretty much drawn to the repertoire; but to me
the most important things are the transcriptions. Id like
to get my hands on some the transcriptions by Julian
Bream. The way he plays it makes all the difference
and where he plays it. Its so important. When you,
yourself, transcribe a piece, you control the way it
sounds on the guitar. Then youll hear somebody play a
different transcription of the same piece. and the two
will sound completely different. Maybe there are voices
that you missed or something else. Im in copycat Gene and Bill
land. I always want to find the transcription I like best, SK: When youre attempting to stay close to the
that sounds good. I wouldnt even dare to do stuff on my composers intentions, is it analogous to, perhaps, a
own. judge in a courtroom talking about the letter of the
law as opposed to the spirit of the law?
SK: Bill? GB: Maybe, yeah. It may not be a literal, note-for-note
BW: I play traditional pieces as written. I would love to interpretation, but you really get the spirit of the piece
be able to arrange like Gene. coming across. And since were all jazz players, its part
of our creativity to do something with a piece. We do it
SK: (to BW) Are you most attracted to pieces that with standards. Why not do it with a classical piece?
were originally composed for the guitar, or could you First the piece has to appeal to you. Then you think, Id
be equally motivated to play a Chopin Mazurka or like to play that. Then you work out something. There
perhaps a Gymnopedie by Satie? are certain things that you want to keep in the piece. You
BW: If it sounds pretty, I try to play it. dont want to depart too much. Take the Chopin Prelude
that the bossa nova How Insensitive is based on. You
SK: Gene, when youre transcribing a piece, how wouldnt want to change anything in that.
much do you feel obligated to shape your transcrip-
tion so that it will conform with the intentions of the SK: Have any of you ever been confronted with a sit-
composer? uation in which you have wanted to write a tran-
GB: I feel you have to maintain the integrity of the scription of a piece that was originally composed for
piece, no matter what. Obviously, there are certain lim- a strictly monophonic instrument or one that is
itations on the guitar; but I believe you can play any- essentially monophonic?
thing on the guitar. You could do The Rite of Spring BW: The most important thing is that on a restaurant
on the guitar, if you really worked at it. You might leave gig, no matter what classical piece youre playing, you
out some notes, but what you capture is the essence of have to be able to segue into Happy Birthday.
the harmony, the essence of the piece. Maybe insert All: Laughter and nods of agreement.
some of your own colors that would work nicely. There
are various pieces that Ive recorded like Traumerei SK: Heres a question for everybody. During the
by Schumann. I put some nice colors in there that Baroque Era, the featured instrumentalist in a con-
Schumann would have liked. (laughs) I really feel that certo would, if able, take an improvised solo. For
way. It doesnt upset the piece; but it also puts my little example, during the final episode at the end of the
stamp on it. Its hard to play the Chopin Preludes on solo first movement in a concerto grosso (which was writ-
guitar. Ive changed the harmonies on a number of ten in ritornello form), the soloist would be given a
things. It doesnt seem to harm the integrity of the cadenza in which to improvise a solo or play one that
Page 92 Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009
was improvisatory. When you play a classical piece,
do you ever take an improvised solo?
BW: No.
MG: No, it wouldnt work for me.
GB: With the stuff Ive worked out, Im trying to be true
to the piece. I have to be true to the arrangement. If I
dont do that, I feel bad.
SK: Lets move on, then. Do you find that there is a
difference in left-hand technique that might be influ-
enced by the nature of the repertoire, or the physical
construction of the fingerboard of the classical ver-
sus the archtop?
GB: I change between guitars, and take both guitars
with me in a lot of situations. Because I started on the
archtop when I was seven, and was studying with
Johnny Smith when I was thirteen, the techniques I
learned in those days are still with me. It doesnt bother
me to switch guitars: but if I didnt practice on the clas-
sical guitar all the time, its gone overnight.
SK: What about you, Bill?
BW: In classical repertoire, especially pieces not origi-
nally written for guitar, you have to bounce around the
neck to get the best sound and the most efficient transi-
tions. The same goes for my playing on the archtop. Its
funny I played that way by ear before I learned posi-
tion playing. Classical got me back on the right track.
SK: Even when youre reaching across the finger-
board for chords?
BW: No, not at all.
SK: Mike?
MG: For me, jazz and classical are very similar on the
neck. Theyre both precise and clean ways of playing, as
opposed to some other genres. If youre playing rock,
you have to do it differently. But for classical and jazz,
I find, the technique for each is very similar.
GB: When you study classical repertoire, the guitar is
used differently from the way most jazz players use it.
You might play an entire melody on one string, just to
get the color of the string, or youll play a line that uses
the whole instrument in a different way. You learn a lot
about the guitar in terms of possibilities when you study
classical repertoire. I think everybody profits from that.
When you play only with a pick, you tend to do a lot
more position-playing instead of using the whole instru-
ment. I dont mean exclusively, but quite often.
MG: The attack and the colors are different, although
the physical act of fretting is similar.
Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009
SK: Do you feel there is a significant advantage (or
compensatory drawback) in the fact that it is easier
to play wider intervals with the right hand on the
classical guitar as opposed to using a pick on the
archtop?
GB: Its certainly easier to play intervals simultaneous-
ly on the classical guitar, sixths, sevenths or ninths for
example. Its like that if you want to articulate those
sixths, sevenths, or ninths. Its easier to leap over those
strings with your fingers instead of going over them
with a pick. Some guys dont have a problem with that.
I think Jack Wilkins doesnt. Same with Johnny Smith
and Mike Gari.
SK: Does your classical technique influence the way
you approach a solo in a jazz piece because youre
able to do those larger intervals more easily? Do find
yourself thinking, perhaps, in larger intervals during
your solos?
MG: It doesnt really change anything; but it does give
me more range. Im going to stay with what I want to
say within the context of the tune. Theres no point in
doing it just for the sake of doing it.
SK: It hasnt made you hear in a different way?
Stoke the imagination a bit?
MG: Well, you do have an advantage if your ears and
your fingers are going in a certain way and you have the
ability to do it.
BW: Fingerstyle opens up the possibilities. Checkout
Howard Morgen at www.howardmorgen.com. Howie
does it all. His new book Through Chord Melody and
Beyond is a masterpiece. A high point in my life was a
guitar duo with Howie and getting to hear him play for
12 years.(Authors note: Howard Morgen will be partic-
ipating in the second installment of this article.)
MG: Also, when you pluck a chord, youre playing
everything simultaneously, as a piano would. Its a dif-
ferent sound from what you get when youre running a
pick through the strings.
GB: Linearly, I think I tend to slur more on the classical
guitar-rest strokes etc. I try to create a swing feel as
opposed to trying to articulate every note, although I do
that quite a bit sometimes because I practice scales. I
never practice the scales with just i m. I use all three fin-
gers. But a lot of times Ill do the slurring because it
tends to lend itself better to jazz lines. When Im using
a pick, I tend to do more alternate picking, unlike Bill,
who gets such a great time and feel. I may be wrong
about this, but I think he isnt always going up and down
with the pick, getting a lot of strong beats with a down
Page 93
pick. (to BW) Am I wrong about that?
BW: Actually, I use alternate picking with more empha-
sis on upstrokes.
GB: Well you get a real great feel. I heard that Barney
Kessel played nothing but down strokes, or mostly
down strokes. I dont know if its true.
BW: Charlie Christian, George Barnes.
MG: Wow! What a touch they had.
GB: The general feeling is that anytime you play just
with the thumb, the feel is better. Look at Wes.
SK: Is there any particular area of performance,
such as accompaniment, perhaps, that has been
influenced by reaching across the genres?
BW: I accompany with straight four, comping, riffs,
inside lines, walking bass lines, stop time, contrapuntal
figures, laying out. a tradition that goes back a long
way.
MG: For me it carries over into everything comping,
improvising, backing up somebody. Its a whole art
being an accompanist. What I would like to be able to
do-someday, is have those moving lines, which for me
originated in classical repertoire. To be able to lead, step
back, being together with the singer.
GB: I feel I learned so much about the guitar when I
decided to slow down and learn the fingerboard in a dif-
ferent way. Instead of learning scales and positions, I
started learning the fingerboard as if I were learning
where all the white keys were. For example, Id put two
strings together in seconds and thirds. I really learned a
lot about the instrument because of the change of tech-
nique. It was like I was learning the instrument for the
first time. I couldnt do anything fast. It was so intellec-
tual. I started to really look into what goes into a chord
structure: what are the notes, where you find them.
Discovering that the open B string is the 7th of C, the
9th of A, the b9 of B flat. Then there are the open string
colors that you could get into chords because youre not
just strumming a chord youre thinking about the
chord structure. It gives you a whole different aspect of
the guitar. It is a result of slowing everything down, and
that I really want to know what the hell Im doing. I
would do these exercises where Id play a C scale start-
ing from the 3rd, E, then that E became the 6th of a G
scale, then the 9th of a D scale. You start seeing things
in a completely different way. You go up in the key of C
and come back in the key of Db. You get all this intel-
lectual knowledge, and after a while you need a psychi-
atrist. (laughs).
SK: Any further comments, anybody? Anything that
I didnt address?
BW: (points to Gene) Hes the master.
GB: I would just reiterate what I said. In the process of
trying to really learn, its important to slow things down.
You slow things down to learn a piece, you slow things
down to learn about the fingerboard. You learn about
harmony beyond chord riffs, and things like that. Then
you start to work out pieces because of your back-
ground, having studied classical repertoire. You think,
Why dont I make up my own classical repertoire?
You might do an interpretation of a standard song with
your own special arrangement, your own special colors,
so you can present it almost like a classical piece.
SK: Youve just described Howard Morgen.
GB: Hes been doing it all along. Hes been doing it
before anybody.
MG: I dont think youll find any player doing jazz
these days who is not also interested in playing classi-
cal. There are too many advantages. Find me a guy
whos a good jazz player who doesnt play classical, and
Ill be surprised.
GB: I think guitarists like anything thats played on a
guitar.
SK: Yeah, were like that.
GB: We just love the guitar. As Segovia said, Its the
only instrument that you caress.
SK: I want to thank you guys for your time, and for
sharing the wealth of your knowledge and experi-
ence with JJG readers.
The second segment of Part I took place on
August 8, 2008 at the home of the phenomenal Bucky
Pizzarelli. Bucky, a true gentleman, is as gracious and
erudite as he is talented. The conversation that took
place that morning was between Bucky, Mike Gari, and
yours truly.
SK: Bucky, did you start off playing either jazz or
classical guitar?
BP: No. My two uncles were very good players on
banjo and guitar. (One of them was a virtuoso mandolin
player as well.) The guitar was just being phased in to
replace the banjo in bands and orchestras. They both
realized that they had to get with the guitar, so thats
what they did. They were always playing at my house
on Sundays, and I wanted to join in, so they showed me
just the chords to all the songs, so I could sit and strum
with them.
SK: So you didnt have an interest in classical guitar MG: Thats a great point. Its the evolution of the gui-
at that time. tar. You want to know how it started with the lute, went
BP: No, no, no. That came much later. I was about on to classical, then evolved into all these other styles
twenty eight years old when I started to play the classi- that we play. Sure, you want to know what came before.
cal guitar. BP: So, you could be playing the guitar for four or five
years and be playing the first few chords. If youre play-
SK: When you are playing classical repertoire do use ing classical guitar, youll be going up there, all over the
a classical guitar? neck right away. And all of a sudden you know where
BP: Yes, this one right here. (holds up a guitar made by that note is. And that helps your jazz playing.
Jose Rubio)
SK: The classical approach to harmony is linear,
SK: I see that you also have a seven string classical horizontal in nature. Does this hold any beneficial
guitar. influence for a jazz player?
BP: My son, John, brought that back from Brazil. The BP: The classical guitar has always been a mystery to
maker gave him two guitars, one for me and one for me. And it still is. Youll hear chords with only two
him. notes not a real chord formation. You play a bass note,
add a note somewhere, and you have a beautiful chord.
SK: This actually would seem like a good time to You would never play a chord like that. You only play it
bring up the matter of scordatura. When you see a because its in classical repertoire. And thats what
classical piece for which one is instructed to lower makes it beautiful.
the sixth string to D, do you lower that string or sim-
ply play the notes on the seventh string? If you do SK: (to Bucky) Throughout this interview you have
lower the sixth string how do you treat the seventh? been illustrating your points playing musical exam-
BP: If the music tells you to drop that sixth string to D, ples on your guitar. (Its been a true delight for me,
I drop it. I dont play anything that has a dropped D on and I wish the readers could hear those bits of
the seven-string classical. If I did, I would just ignore music.) Ive noticed that you use a pick instead of
the seventh string. your fingers.
BP: I do that now. I used to play with my fingers; but I
SK: (to Bucky) A few of months ago, when we were lost the use of one finger. It got messed up. So I said to
at the West Texas Jazz Societys jazz party in myself, Whatever repertoire I have, I could play with a
Midland, and I told you that I was doing this article, pick.
you responded as if by reflex. You said, If you play MG: Im with you all the way, 100%! I spent so many
jazz, you have to play classical. Would you elabo- years trying to be a real classical player, but it was
rate on that now please? impossible. I knew Id never get up to the level of some
BP: You have to start beginners at the classical guitar on of these guys.
the six string instrument as standardized by Segovia.
Before he did that it was all different tunings. I think it's SK: (to Bucky) The other day I asked Mike, Bill, and
very important to know what was being played before Gene if they only play what was composed for the
the guitar came into being. The classical guitar is the classical guitar, or are they equally attracted to tran-
standard instrument. When you first start you're scriptions of pieces originally written for other
playinging on the first three strings and on the first three instruments. Where do you stand?
or four frets. And youre always dying to play some- BP: I stick to what was written for the classical guitar.
thing here or something there, (laughing) you just dont When I performed in a club last night, I played three
know how the hell to do it. Classical repertoire puts you pieces. It was without a microphone, in a little saloon.
there right away. I showed my daughter some little Everybody kept quiet. I saved all the other stuff for the
thing. I put her fingers on the strings, and it was all over jazz guitar. But when I play classical guitar, I try to play
the guitar. If you want to play classical guitar, there are the music exactly the way it was written.
beautiful little melodies Adelita, and things like
that. And you start playing a high note like that. It teach- SK: To clarify my question, Beethoven did not write
es you as you learn the repertoire. Its teaching you specifically for the guitar, but there are guitar tran-
where the guitar is, and where you are on the guitar. scriptions of some of his pieces. Are you more
Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009 Page 95
attracted to pieces originally composed for the gui-
tar, or are you equally attracted to transcriptions?
BP: I go for the ones that were written specifically for
the guitar.
SK: So you wouldnt touch any of the Beethoven
transcriptions, for example?
BP: I dabbled with them, but they didnt hit me. Its just
a matter of personal taste.
MG: I play Bach
SK: Some of the Bach pieces really dont have to go
terribly far to be playable on the guitar. For example
the Prelude for Violin in E Major (Partita Number 3)
is the same piece as the Prelude from the Lute Suite
in E Major.
MG: Its very much like jazz, in the way all the har-
monies move.
SK: What do you feel the harmonies have in com-
mon with jazz?
BP: You could take the harmonies of Bachs pieces and
put a chord symbol over each one. You might find a G
chord with the note B in the bass. Thats exactly what
you have to know when youre playing jazz. When
youre backing up a singer, you have to understand what
note to put in the bass.
SK: Bach was the greatest keyboardist of his era.
Most people do not know that during the Baroque, it
was not unusual for a featured instrumentalist to
have a cadenza in which he would take an impro-
vised solo. This was one way in which Bach displayed
his skills. Improvisatory solos were written out for
those soloists who could not improvise.
BP: (laughing) You called those play at your own
risk.
SK: Exactly. Do you ever take an improvised solo
during a classical piece?
MG: No!
BP: I might jazz it up.
SK: How?
BP: I cant really explain it. Ill do it with the inflection
of jazz. Maybe with Villa-Lobos, and stuff like that. Not
changing the notes, just the way you milk it.
SK: Would you give the eighth notes a dotted eighth-
sixteenth feel?
BP: Yeah.
Page 96
SK: Mike, what about you?
MG: I dont think I would do it; but I sure wouldnt
condemn it.
SK: Johnny Smith wrote a wonderful transcription
of Debussys miniature from the Second Book of
Preludes, called The Girl with the Flaxen Hair.
Has either of you tried to do something like that?
BP: Not really. I tried to do something, but it was too
difficult and I laid off. I think it was in G flat.
SK: Why didnt you change the key?
BP: A song is written in a certain key for a certain rea-
son. For example, I play The Bad and the Beautiful in
the key of A. It was written in the key of A flat. Ive had
arrangers come up to me and tell me that Im supposed
to play it in A flat. A guy writes a piece in a specific key
for a reason, but it sounds better on the guitar in A.
SK: I knew David Raksin, who wrote that score. He
was a really nice guy. Id like to have gotten his views
on the key change.
BP: He didnt write that many songs, but the ones he did
are classics. He was brilliant.
SK: Back to the topic of transposition. Are there any
mitigating circumstances under which you would
write an arrangement in a key other than the origi-
nal?
BP: No, none. No mitigating circumstances.
SK: Bucky, you use a pick when playing the classical
guitar. Mike, you use a pick plus fingers. How did
you decide on how you would approach right-hand
technique?
BP: I dont have full use of the m finger. Its not an
injury its just old age. (laughs)
SK: If it were not for the physical decline of that fin-
ger, would you still be using a pick on the classical
instrument?
BP: Id just be using my fingers. I wouldnt use a pick.
SK: How does this affect the element of tone color
for you?
BP: Well, I made a record; its not out yet. In the mid-
dle of the record I play three pieces. Im not bragging;
Im just saying, you dont know if its fingers or not.
SK: Id like to hear that. And I want to say that if
anybody deserved the right to brag, you do.
Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009
BP: (Laughs and makes a dismissive hand gesture as if left hand technique is very different on a classical
to say oh please!) guitar in a particular circumstance. The composers,
who were also virtuoso guitarists, would look, at
SK: Did you make a conscious effort to simulate the times, for a certain tone color. This might require a
sound of fingers while you were using a pick? melody to be played on one string, as opposed to
BP: Yeah, I was well aware of what sound you had to playing it across the strings. Has this had any influ-
get when you played with your fingers. The rest stroke ence on the way you approach melody while playing
and the free stroke, you have to think of that. All the jazz?
time. Youre playing the melody, you have to give it the BP: Yes. Some of the guitar players Ive worked with
rest stroke. approach it this way, and when you do, boy, youre
singing it. You could also describe each string as violin
SK: Mike, since you use the pick and the fingernails, range, viola, or cello.Thats what they do with a cello
do you notice a significant difference regarding the the same thing. You want it to sing. A guitar is a percus-
color produced by the two different striking materi- sive instrument; the note dies out right away.
als?
MG: Most of the time the pick is taking the place of the SK: Mike, do you ever find yourself playing a
thumb. The only thing I dread is that sometimes I have melody on one string?
to use my pinky. Only I wouldnt be trying to play the MG: Sure, if it goes in that direction.
Tarrega tremolo study with my pinky! I just decided that
theres no way I could be playing classical the way I SK: Has your classical experience influenced your
should be. So Im going to play it the way Im comfort- approach to jazz?
able, and the way its enjoyable. Im not going to say BP: I think so. When youre playing behind a singer,
that Im performing it, or trying to make it sound like for example, sometimes the classical guitar is calling
Williams or Bream. Ill play the piece and love it, and you, saying, You better do it this way! (laughs). Tony
the sound will be as close as I could get it to what it Mottola and I did play for a couple of opera singers
should be. when we were on the Tonight Show. I made some
BP: If you want to hear a good sound track buy For records with Dawn Upshaw. I also played Patrice
Whom the Bell Tolls.The guitar is the opposite of a Munsels show for a year. I was always aware of the
classical guitar, although its a gut string guitar. Its classical even though I played the show on the archtop.
plaintive. Its like hes playing in an alleyway. No vibra-
to nothing. (picks up a guitar and demonstrates his SK: What would you do if you were playing the arch-
point beautifully) Simplicity! If you want to hear a top and wanted to get a classical-style sound ? Would
real soundtrack, buy the movie, its available. you tweak the amplifier?
BP: When I was playing behind her everything was
SK: How has the left hand technique employed for acoustic. I think an electric guitar is ugly when youre
classical guitar influenced you when you are playing playing behind an opera singer. It would be out-of-char-
an archtop? acter.
BP: When Im playing a six-string guitar, Im always
thinking of F-G-A and so on right down the line. When SK: What if youre backing up an opera singer doing
I play a jazz guitar (seven string), Im thinking of a C all a jazz tune or a standard?
the way up the board. I think that way. I do it over Eb BP: I recorded with Roberta Peters. She sang an Italian
and so forth. On a classical guitar, Im thinking melodi- song (arranged by Al Cohn). If an opera singer wants to
cally. Even on one string sometimes. do a standard or a jazz tune, I use the archtop, unampli-
MG: When Im playing classical guitar, working on a fied.
couple of pieces, Ill go back to the other guitar (the
archtop) and Ill be real strong; really good. SK: Mike, how have you felt the influence?
BP: Oh yeah, yeah. MG: The intervals, the colors, the subtleties. I think it
MG: You were just going through all the moving lines gets naturally incorporated into my playing. You dont
and all that stuff. Its like cleansing the palette. want your playing to be all on one level. Theres no bet-
ter example than all the different moods and colors you
SK: The other day either Bill or Gene said that the get playing classical. As Bucky says, its part of the evo-
Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009 Page 97
lution of the guitar. You have to look at it, even if you
dont spend your life doing it.
BP: It brings sense to the guitar. And now the kids are
all starting on the electric, and forgetting how the
acoustic sounds, even on the archtop.
MG: Which is more beautiful actually.
BP: Thats right.
SK: Im glad you guys said that because I never let
my students start on an electric. If a student starts on
an electric, he or she wont learn how to coax a beau-
tiful sound out of a guitar.
BP: There you go!
SK: I think Ive covered all of todays questions, so is
there anything either of you would like to add?
BP: Regarding accompaniment: When youre backing
up a singer you have to look at the lead sheet and learn
the song the way it was written, and take it from there.
As I said at the beginning, it might just be a third in the
bass, that will get you something beautiful. It's going to
lead to something better. Then you build, and build , and
build. If youre not aware of those actions, youre not
going to back up the singer properly. You cant just play
chord symbols behind a singer.
SK: I want to express my deep appreciation and
respect to both of you for participating in this article,
and sharing your expertise. Just so the readers know,
throughout this interview Bucky played his classical
guitar several times in order to provide musical
examples that would illustrate his statements. Im
going to call Ed Benson to suggest he transform JJG
into an audio magazine.
MG: That would be cool!
BP: Yeah!
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Page 98
Laurence Wexer, Ltd.
Fine Fretted Instruments Fine Fretted Instruments
Archtop-Electric & Acoustic
1990 Benedetto Tal Farlow style sunburst, Mint, Hard, $8,500.00. An unusual guitar hand-
made by Bendetto. Laminate body with Tal Farlow body scroll.Two bartolini humbuckers.
Cool and one of a kind. (Price Reduced from $9500)
1999 Buscarino Artisan custom Blue, Excellent, Original Hard, $5,500.00. An upgraded ver-
sion of Buscarino's Artisan model. 16" wide, solid carved guitar with fancy woods ,extra bind-
ing, Piezo and Humbucking pickups in a blue finish. Near mint condition. Fine playability. A
nice handmade guitar.
1996 Campellone Special Custom Blue, Excellent, GigBag, $6,750.00. A unique custom
Campellone. Ordered in Blue with a triangular sound hole, X bracing, 1 11/16" nut, 24 3/4"
scale, 20 1/2 " x 17" body. This guitar is a superior example of this builders work. It is also
equipped with a vintage DeArmond pickup for that real traditional jazz sound.In near mint
condition, no issues. An excellent instrument.
1984 D'Aquisto New Yorker Classic 12 String blonde, exc, Original Hard, $40,000.00. A
unique guitar! 16 inches wide, noncutaway body, with an oval sound hole. Maple overlay on
headstock, wood binding, and other NY Classic features. I believe this guitar to be the First
instrument built with NY Classic features. Blonde finish, beautiful imported maple back, sides,
and neck, Macassar ebony pickguard and tailpiece. Great sound. Near mint condition.
1966 Epiphone Howard Roberts blonde, Near Mint, Original Hard, $3,850.00. A super clean
Epi Howard Roberts, single floating Johnny Smith pickup. All original and perfect setup.
Blonde top (label says N). A rare and desireable model. Only some minor checking in the fin-
ish, no issues ior repairs.
1966 Epiphone Triumph custom sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $5,000.00. An unusual Epiphone
cutaway guitar! The label says Triumph, but the guitar is a 17" wide cutaway with an oval hole
and a floating Johnny Smith pickup. It is really more of a larger Howard Roberts. 25 1/2" scale
1 5/8" width nut. A litlle neck wear and some light checking, but no repairs or cracks. These
were originally ordered by Bob Cavanaugh of E.U. Wurlitzers in Boston. A dozen or so have
been made. Bob installed a pickup with his own large pickguard that would accomodate stan-
dard size pots. Perfect Pro refret by Norio Imai. Plays great and sounds round and full plugged
in.
1968 Gibson L-5CESN Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $11,500.00. A very nice Sharp cut-
away 60s electric L-5. Plays easily, this is a clean guitar. Replica pickguard. Tiny filled strap
pin hiole, otherwise all straight. The narrower nut, but not a tiny neck. Very comfortable feel.
Perfect Pro refret by Norio Imai. Effortless to play. Very Blonde. (Price reduced)
1924 Gibson L-5 sunburst, Excellent, Original Hard, $48,000.00. Signed March 31, 1924
Lloyd Loar L-5. Very fine original condition. No cracks, all original hardware and finish. These
are quite rare and are Archtop guitars that started it all. These were the first F-hole archtop gui-
tar to be produced and have a unique warm tone with amazing bottom end and projection.
Spruce top, Birch back, maple sides and neck, varnish finish, Virzi tone producer.
1929 Gibson L-5 sunburst, Very Good, Hard, $8,000.00. Fine sounding 16" L-5. "The
Gibson" logo, pearl blocks starting at the third fret. The guitar is in structurally excellent shape,
though it does have a few small repaired back cracks, and one repaired top crack under the
pickguard. These are in the dark part of the burst and hard to see. The tailpiece is replaced with
one from the period. Nice modern feeling neck with a slight V shape. Excellent volume and
punch.
1957 Gibson Byrdland sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $8,950.00. A fine sounding and playing 50s
Byrdland with Alnico pickups. Pro refret and one small repaired crack near the bridge. Very
attractive guitar with nice curly maple and lovely warm tone. (Price Reduced, was $10.5)
1960 Gibson L-5CESN Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $25,500.00. A PAF equipped elec-
tric L-5CESN. Round cutaway, factory stereo varitone. The guitar is well set up and plays
beautifully. Vintage tailpiece replaces a bigsby. Part of the lower treble side was pro refinished
by Cris Mirabella. An excellent instrument.
1961 Gibson L-5CES sunburst, Excellent, Original Hard, $21,500.00. Fine condition,
Excellent plus, sharp cutaway PAF equipped L-5. No repairs. Original factory Stereo varitone.
Attractive woods. two piece back. Some light playing wear on the neck, pro refret. A rare and
great sounding jazz guitar.(Price Reduced from 24K)
1941 Stromberg Deluxe Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $29,500.00. A very rare single
transverse braced Blonde Deluxe. The guitar is in fine original condtion with no repairs, except
pro refret. Perfect action and wonderful classic jazz tone. Freddie Green!!! Attractive curly
maple plus documentation from the family of the original owner.
1949 Stromberg G-3 sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $18,500.00. A rare noncutaway G-3, with sin-
gle transverse brace and 17 3/8" body width. Great playability and the classic jazz sound these
are known for. Headstock overlay was professionally replaced, but a very clean and fine instru-
ment.
2006 Trenier Magnolia sunburst, Brand New, Hard, $5,000.00. A guitar by a fine young luthi-
er. Excellent craftsmanship and sound. X braced oval hole archtop. Engelman spruce top,
European maple back and sides. 1 3/4" nut width 25 1/4" scale length. Fine tone and setup.
2008 Trenier Rosine Blonde, Brand New, $7,000.00. This is a brand new Rosine made in the
D'Aquisto AvantGarde style. This guitar is a fabulous creation that comes amazingly close to
capturing the sound and vibe of a real D'Aquisto. Beautiful woods and craftsmanship. Imported
woods, Art Deco headstock, 1 3/4" nut 25 1/2" scale. 18" wide/Big and Blonde.
2000 Triggs Custom Orange, Mint, Original Hard, $7,000.00. A beautiful hand made Custom
Triggs archtop. Super flamey maple back sides and neck. Johnny Smith style, with a Benedetto
floating pickup, 25" scale, 1 3/4" nut width. Effortless to play. A lovely instument.
Phone: 212-532-2994 or 212-696-4701 Fax: 212-696-5384
e mail: larrywexer@aol.com website: www.wexerguitars.com
Just Jazz Guitar I
February 2009