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I
see there were a lot of threads replied by CSA, and i found him
very knowledgeable.
I was wondering how can a rookie like me to have a better
understanding of gas turbine control.
In one thread, CSA advised to read Control Sequence Programs
(CSPs) and Control Specification. what is Control Specification?
how can i find it?
Thank you.
Also, at least in the web browser that I use one can grab the
lower right corner of the control.com Text box and drag it to the
right (and down) to get more horizontal (and vertical) space
when replying. This will be useful when logic signal names are
long, and when there are as many as eight horizontal elements in
a rung. You can always use the 'Preview' and 'Edit' buttons to see
how your post appears before submitting it.
Also, let's talk about how GE is supposed to write and choose
logic signal names (per their own standard--realize that every
company has its own standard, and we're just talking about GE
here). In the early days of digital Speedtronic turbine control
systems it was decided to make the signal name describe when
the logic was a "1", or when it was "True." In general, this has
been followed over the years, but it's not always followed and
that's a real shame, because it's very useful when it is.
Next, we need to be sure everyone (you, Neo, and me) is clear
about what normally open and normally closed means. A normally
open contact associated with a logic signal will be OPEN when the
associated logic is "0" and will be CLOSED when the associated
logic is "1". A normally closed contact associated with a logic
signal will be CLOSED when the associated logic is "0" and will be
OPEN when the associated logic is "1".
To get a logic signal to be a logic "1" it's necessary for power to
flow through a series-parallel string to the "coil" of the logic
signal, so that means that the logic signals of normally open
contacts must be a logic "1" and the logic signals of normally
closed contacts must be a logic "0". As an example, let's "read"
the L4 rung (because it is, in fact, a sentence).
"When L4S IS a logic "1" OR when L4 IS a logic "1", AND
when L94T IS NOT a logic "1" AND when L4T IS NOT a
logic "1", then L4 will be a logic "1"."
So, when L4S is a logic "1" its associated normally open contacts
will be CLOSED, and when L4 is a logic "1" its associated normally
open contacts will be CLOSED, and when L94T is NOT a logic "1"
(that is, when it IS a logic "0") its associated normally closed
contacts will be CLOSED, and when L4T IS NOT a logic "1" (that
is, when it IS a logic "0") its associated normally closed contacts
will be CLOSED. And when either L4 or L4S is a logic "1", and
when both L94T and L4T are NOT logic "1"s, then L4 will be a
logic "1".
I find it easiest to "read" rungs in this fashion--"imagining" what
state the associated logic signals of normally open and normally
closed contacts have to be in in order for power to flow through
the normally open or normally closed contacts to "energize" the
logic signal coil(s) at the right end of the rung. Others like to read
them in different fashions--possibly like this: When L4S is TRUE
OR when L4 is TRUE, AND when L94T is FALSE AND L4T is FALSE
then L4 will be TRUE. But, it's the same thing--TRUE and FALSE
are another way of describing when logic signals are "1" or "0"
and which state the logic signals need to be in in order for power
to flow through them to energize the rung's logic signal coil.
There are lots of ways to read and interpret rungs--lets' just stick
with this one for this discussion, and hopefully it will become
clearer why this way works best for GE logic (application code in
the Mark VI).
So, from the longname descriptions of signal names in Toolbox,
we can see that L4S stands for "L4 Set" (or sometimes called "L4
Start"). It will be a logic "1" (True) when all of the start-check
permissives are met and when all of the other final start-checks
are completed when a START is initiated. (Don't worry; we'll go
over all of them in due time--presuming you have the patience.)
Now, let's continue with the descriptions of the other names of
elements of the L4 rung. L94T will be a logic "1" when a normal
shutdown is in progress and the fuel is to be shut off in two of
the three control processors, <R>, <S> and <T> for a TMR
control panel--or just in <R> for a SIMPLEX control panel. L4T
will be a logic "1" when any condition which trips the turbine in
two of the threee control processors, <R>, <S> and <T> for a
TMR control panel--or just in <R> for a SIMPLEX control panel.
(There are MANY sub-rungs for L4T, and we'll go over all of
them.)
So, what does this tell us about L4? In order to get L4 to go to a
logic "1" (to "pick up"), L4S needs to be a logic "1" and L94T and
L4T both need to be logic "0"s, and then L4 will also go to logic
"1" which will close the normally open contact in parallel with L4S
and "latch" or "seal-in" the rung--so that if EITHER L94T goes to
a logic "1" OR L4T goes to a logic "1" L4 will "drop out", or go to
a logic "0". It should also be clear that it's necessary for L4S to go
to a logic "1" to get L4 to also go to a logic "1", but that once L4
is a logic "1" that L4S does NOT need to remain a logic "1" for L4
to remain a logic "1"--as long as both L94T and L4T both remain
logic "0".
That's it. Once L4 is a logic "1" there are only two conditions
which can "drop out" L4 (make it go to a logic "0")--L94T going to
a logic "1" or L4T going to a logic "1". And in order to start, run
and shutdown (normal shutdown) the turbine, L4 MUST be a logic
"1", and if L4 transitions from logic "1" to logic "0" while the
turbine is starting or running or shutting down then the fuel stop
valve(s) will be commanded to close and the turbine will be
tripped. (Fuel stop valves are not open during purging and prior
to firing, but L4 is required to be a logic "1" in order to open fuel
stop valves when necessary, and for them to remain open.)
And--presuming that both L94T and L4T are BOTH logic "0"s,
which they must be in order to initiate a START--there is only one
condition that will allow L4 to pick up (go to a logic "1")and that
is when L4S goes to a logic "1". (That's because prior to a START,
when a READY to START is indicated to the operator, L4 is a logic
"0". This can be seen in the 'Start Check Permissive' display.)
Hopefully you can begin to see how the signal name being
chosen to describe when the signal is a logic "1" can be helpful.
And hopefully you can also begin to see how knowing how to
read signal names (most of them--unfortunately not all, because
standards aren't always adhered to) can be very beneficial to
quickly reading and interpreting rungs and logic (application code
in the Mark VI). There are some little "tricks"--which aren't
documented anywhere, not even in GE (sad, but true)--which we
will discover on this journey.
So, your assignment, Neo, is to post the L4S rung to this thread
(using the HTML tags). And, then, please "read" (write the
sentence) that describes when L4S will be a logic "1".
Also, please post the longnames for each of the logic signals in
the rung. Here's an example:
L4 = Master Protective ("1" to Run)
L4S = L4 Set
L4T = Master Protective Trip ("1" to Trip)
L94T = Normal Shutdown Trip
(I believe that if you hover the cursor over a signal name in
Toolbox the longname description will appear at the lower left
corner of the Toolbox window.The longnames I wrote were exact
quotes from a Mark VI site; they are not the same for every job.
Just post what it says in your application code from Toolbox.
Sometimes, there is no longname; and worse, criminally, the
longname is wrong. That's life, though. We learn to deal with it.)
We will go through each element of the L4S rung (which has
several "sub-rungs", and the L4T rung, which has MANY sub-
rungs) so you will get very proficient at using the HTML tags--and
"reading" signal names. We'll go over the L94T rung, too. And,
we will discuss the various other types of proper (and possibly
improper) GE signal names, as well as understand the conditions
and permissives.
You're going to have to look up Control Constant values, and
various device settings (from the Device Summary document
provided with every GE-design heavy duty gas turbine). So, you
will need to find the Device Summary document (it also used be
in Vol. III, but who knows where "they" put it now...).
If you have any questions or comments on the above, let's deal
with those first. If I introduce words or terms you're unfamiliar
with, ask for clarification. If you're having some trouble with
normally open vs. normally closed contacts, just be patient with
yourself. It will begin to become clearer soon. Best not to get
caught up in that discussion because it does get very clear after a
while--it just takes longer for some people than others, but be
patient.
This is going to be a joint effort, but to be of the most benefit to
you we are going to use the exact rungs and signals in your Mark
VI application code so that it's specific to your turbine and
auxiliaries. Your job is to provide requested information--rungs,
Control Constant values, pressure switch or temperature switch
settings, etc.--and the rest we will sort out as we continue on this
journey of discovery.
Remember, relay ladder logic is just another "language"--and it
has "sentences" with verbs and predicates and subjects just like
any other language. And it's nothing more than logic, sequencing.
By learning how to "anticipate" when a logic signal will be a logic
"1" (and by inference, when it won't be a logic "1"--that is, when
it will be a logic "0") one can more easily read the rungs and
begin to understand what is to be happening so that one can
understand GE-design heavy duty gas turbine control and GE-
design heavy duty gas turbine control philosophy.
Finally, L4 is just one way the turbine can be tripped--from the
application code running in the control processors. There is also
tripping which can be done through the <P> core and associated
inputs to the <P> core--and we'll get to that to as we finish this
discussion. Because it's important to understand this isn't the only
way a turbine can be tripped--GE has several. Be patient, and
we'll cover them all, and in the process learn more about the
Mark VI.
I'm looking forward to this journey! Let's keep moving and we're
going to "see" some amazing things. "Learning is finding out what
you already knew," is one of my favourite quotes. When
presented correctly, it's exactly what happens--one says to
himself (or herself), "I knew that!" It's just that you hadn't
thought it about it that way before. And with a few little hints,
tips and tricks it can be very easy--and intuitive, which means,
well, you already knew that!
By the way, I'm going to apologize in advance for making a few
mistakes along the way. I'm not a good person to proofread my
own writing (most people aren't good at proofreading their own
writing), and I'm doing this in my spare time, and so I do--and
will--make mistakes. Just hopefully, not too many of them. Please
be patient with me.
where:
L4SX = Master protective set auxiliary logic(confusing)
L14HR = HP zero speed signal
L14Y = time delay loss of master protective(not sure if it is
needed)
So, if L4SX, L14HR and L14Y are 1, then L4s is 1, otherwise L14
remains 0.
Should i make further classification? But it is hard for me.
I think L14SX is relatively important, so i dig deeper.
Here comes the L14SX;
>where:
>L4SX = Master protective set auxiliary
>logic(confusing)
>L14HR = HP zero speed signal
>L14Y = time delay loss of master
>protective(not sure if it is needed)
It should be:
where:
L4SX = Master protective set auxiliary logic
L14HR = HP zero speed signal
L4Y = time delay loss of master protective
Let's deal with the L14HR signal. "14" means it's a speed level
signal, "H" means it's related to the HP shaft (and since your
turbine is a single-shaft, I presume) the shaft is the HP shaft, and
"R" means the shaft is 'at rest' or, 'at zero speed.' So, L14HR is a
logic "1" when the turbine-generator shaft is at rest, or at zero
speed.
L4SX, as you rightly noted, is important. In this case the "X"
means it's a 'permissive' or 'auxiliary' to L4S. In earlier versions of
GE digital Speedtronic turbine control systems, there was a limit
of eight "elements" horizontal string in a rung. That means there
could be no more than seven contacts (normally open and/or
normally closed) and one coil--for a total of eight. So, if there
were more than seven contacts necessary it was required to split
the rung into multiple rungs, and name the "permissive" rungs by
applying an "X" suffix to the main logic signal name. Since most
of the application code was copied from earlier control systems,
this was continued. And on some turbines, there may be
additional contacts in either or both of the L4SX and L4S rungs.
So, in your mind you could envision the following:
L4 L4Y
-----|/|-------------------------(T)
1.0 sec
By "inverse time delay" you can see that 1.0 second after L4
transitions from a logic "1" to a logic "0" (which is the inverse of a
logic "1") that L4Y will be a logic "1". Or:
"1.0 second after L4 is NOT a logic "1", L4Y will be a logic "1"."
[If you look up L4Z, it will look like this:
L4 L4Z
-----| |-------------------------(T)
1.0 sec
A "Z" suffix almost always means a "time delay" to its namesake,
in this case L4.
L4Z is read:
"1.0 second AFTER L4 IS a logic "1", L4Z will be a logic "1"."]
Let's read the combined L4SX/L4 rung:
"When L3RS is a logic "1" AND L1X is a logic "1" AND L33CSE is a
logic "1" AND L63QT is NOT a logic "1" AND L14HR is a logic "1"
AND L4Y is a logic "1", then L4S will be a logic "1"."
L3RS = Ready to Start
L1X = Auxiliary to START command
l33cse = Clutch-Starting Engaged (driven by a discrete (contact)
input
L63QT = Low L.O. Pressure TRIP
L14HR = HP Shaft at Rest
L4Y = L4 Inverse Time Delay
I think (I hope!) that the signal you wrote as L33CSE was actually
l33cse (all lower-case alpha characters), because that's GE's
"standard" for signals that associated with inputs and outputs--to
express the signal names in lower-case characters. It's not
required--but it's intended to be helpful to people reading the
application code to let them know those particular signal names
with lower-case alpha characters are associated with physical
inputs or outputs. (Again, GE doesn't always follow their own
standards. But we learn to live with it.)
So, now, let's re-read the combined L4SX/L4S rung:
"1.0 seconds after L4 goes to a logic "0" AND the 'Ready to Start'
signal is a logic "1" AND the START command auxiliary is a logic
"1" and the Starting Clutch is engaged AND there is NOT a Low
L.O. Pressure Trip and the shaft is at zero speed, then L4S will be
a logic "1"."
In order to be able to start a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine,
the operator interface must display a "READY TO START"
indication. Most HMIs have a "Start-Check Permissive Display
which can be used to determine why a Ready to Start indication
is not being displayed. (We are going to go through all of that--
just be patient.) Part of the 'Ready to Start' indication is that
there are no turbine trips (L4T is a logic "0")--remember L4T from
the L4 rung. (A "3" is a complete sequence element/device. In
this case, the ready to start sequence is complete.) L3RS will be a
logic "1" when the start-check ("Ready to Start) sequence is
complete.
When the "READY TO START" indication is seen AND when the
operator selects START and executes the command then L1X will
pick up (a "1" is a starting element/device per ANSI & GE). When
L1X picks up, that starts several auxiliaries, including the Aux.
L.O. Pump, which pressurizes the L.O. system after a few seconds
(if the Aux. L.O. Pump is not already running). L1X is an auxiliary
signal that is a logic "1" when a turbine START is active.
Also, L1X usually starts the Hydraulic Ratchet pump to engage
the starting clutch, which should cause actuate limit switch 33CS-
1 after the clutch halves are engaged to make l33cse go to a logic
"1". The signal name tells you when it's going to be a logic "1"--
when the starting clutch (the jaw clutch on most machines; a SSS
clutch on some units) is Engaged.
When the low L.O. pressure switches at the collector end of the
generator (the furthest point away from the L.O. pumps) are
actuated--meaning they have sensed minimal L.O. pressure--then
logic signal L63QT will go to a logic "0". A 63 is a pressure
sensing element/device, mostly a pressure switch per GE's
interpretation. When you see a "Q" in a logic signal name it
means oil, or flow. In this case it means L.O., and the "T" means
'Trip.' L63QT will be a logic "1" when the L.O. bearing header
pressure--as sensed by the switches at the collector end of the
generator--is below the minimum pressure required to protect the
bearings. Again, the signal name tells you when it's going to be a
logic "1"--when the L.O. Bearing Header pressure is low enough
to initiate a turbine trip. In this case, we want it to be a logic "0"
(because we need the normally closed contact to be closed to get
power flow through the contact) so we want L63QT to be NOT a
logic "1"--which is the same as saying when the L.O. pressure is
NOT low enough to initiate a turbine trip. And, again, that will
happen several seconds after the Aux. L.O. pump starts and
pressurizes the bearing header and the pressure switches at the
collector end of the generator are all actuated.
L14HR is a logic "1" when the HP shaft is at Rest.
L4Y is a logic "1" 1.0 seconds after L4 is NOT a logic "1".
And that's L4S (and L4SX).
Regarding your confusion about L4, it's the signal that says "It's
okay to run the turbine" when it's a logic "1". And when it's NOT
a logic "1" (when it's a logic "0"), then the turbine is to be
tripped. If you look at how many places in the application code L4
is used, you will--it's a LOT! Probably the most used signal,
because it's the permissive to start run a lot of auxiliaries, to
energize a lot of solenoids, to permit fuel to flow, and on and on.
L4 must be a logic "1" to burn fuel in the turbine, and if it
changes from logic "1" to logic "0" the fuel flow-rate will be
stopped--tripping the turbine.
This logic signal, L4, should >>>NEVER<<< be forced to a
logic "1". Never. Ever. NEVER. Not even when the turbine is at
zero speed. If this signal is forced to a logic "1" when the turbine
is not running, a lot of auxiliaries may start and run, and a LOT of
alarms will be annunciated, and in the worst case, fuel might be
accidentally admitted to the combustors. It's just not ever
permissible to force L4. Even if some GE document tells you to do
so--it's wrong. And, it should absolutely NEVER be forced to a
logic "1" when the turbine is running--because if L4T is picked up
(by, say, low L.O. pressure, or high vibration, or loss of flame, or
exhaust overtemperature, etc.) the turbine will NOT trip. So, to
anyone reading this: Never force L4 to a logic "1"--whether the
turbine is running or not.
I hope it's becoming clearer how to "read" logic signal names. In
general, the signal name tells you when the logic is going to be
"1". And, armed with this information, it should be easier to read
application code.
Don't try to think that you have to learn everything right now.
You have this information, you can print it, and you can review it
any time you wish. And, it's always available on control.com.
Where:
L3RS1 = Start check stop ready to start logic1;
L3RS2 = Start check stop ready to start logic2;
L5VPRO_LATCH = Protective VPRO card trip_latch(Never heard it
before)
SO,when Ready To Start 1 signal(L3RS1)and Ready To Start 2
signal (L3RS2) are logic 1,and
L5VPRO_LATCH is 0, the L3RS will be logic 1.
It will be necessary to examine L3RS1 and L3RS2, and this time
i'll examine L3RS1.
L3STCK L3RS1
------------||------------()
Where:
L3STCK = Startup check stop stop start check permissive.
And the signal L3STCK:
L3STCK0 L3STCK1 L3STCK2 L3STCK3
----------||----------||----------||-----------||----------()
L3STCK0 = Startup check stop start check logic 0;
L3STCK1 = Startup check stop start check logic 1;
L3STCK2 = Startup check stop start check logic 2;
L3STCK3 = Startup check stop start check logic 3;
In conclusion, the L3RS is divided in L3RS1 and L3RS2, and
L3RS1 is devided in L3STCK0, L3STCK1 ,L3STCK2 and L3STCK3.
I was wondering what kind of signal will be grouped in L3STCK0,
L3STCK1, L3STCK2 and L3STCK3 respectively.
L3STCK0(start check logic 0 for units without third fuel and no
HRSG by pass)(?)
Where:
L27BN = AC BUS normal;
L27BZ = AC BUS undervoltage(confusing);
l3cp = startup check stop customer permissive to start (difference
between l3cp and L1X?);
L86TCI = compressor inlet thermocouple disagree (not clear);
L3IGVFLT = IGV valve position servo trouble;
L86MP = startup check stop master prot startup lockout (not
sure);
L5ESTOP1 = state of E-STOP 1 (confusing);
L45FP_STCK = Fire protection start permissive (not clear);
SO, if any of L27BN and L27BZ is logic 1, AND l3cp is logic 1,
whenL86TCI, L3IGVFLT, L5WSTOP, L5ESTOP1and L45FP_STCK
are logic 0, then L3STCK is logic 1.
I'll start with the signal L3IGVFLT. The L3IGVFT :
L3IGVF1 L3IGVFLT
--------||------------( )
|
L3IGVF2 |
--------||---------
Where:
L27BN = AC BUS normal;
L27BZ = AC BUS undervoltage;
l3cp = startup check stop customer permissive to start ;
L86TCI = compressor inlet thermocouple disagree ;
L3IGVFLT = IGV valve position servo trouble;
L86MP = startup check stop master prot startup
lockout(confusing) ;
L5ESTOP1 = state of E-STOP 1;
L45FP_STCK = Fire protection start permissive ;
I Checked the source of signal
true true
l27bn1---------||---------L27BN; l27bz1---------||---------L27BZ;
Where:
l26qn=Lube oil tank temperature low low;
L28FDSCK=Flame detector trouble;
L430=Off modo selected;
L14HR=HP zero speed signal;
L86HD=Hydraulic protective trouble;
l12hblt=overspeed bolt trip;
If the 'lube oil tank temperature is lower than setpoint' AND 'any
one of the flame detector detect no signal of flame before start
AND 'off MODE' is not selected'AND'the HP-shaft' is at rest AND
'Hydraulic protective is not logic 1 'ANd'overspeed bolt trip is not
logic 1', then L3STCK will be logic 1.
As to signal l26qn, does it from a temperature switch which
outputs 1 when the temperature is lower than setpoint? I think
the temperature of lube oil affect its performance.
It seems the signal is related to the fuel servo system ,and i think
it is important. Should i examine it next time?
I am confused about L430 signal, does it an input from HMI? And
just to normally shutdown gas turbine?
Up to now, i was confronted a lot of signals and i find it hard to
sort it out? What should i focus on through this journey?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
I think we should keep on moving, and i'll just write down the
rung and examine it next time.
L86CB L4Y L3BHSTCK L30CC_STCK l33cl1 l45fp1 l27f
--------|/|-------||---------||---------|/|------|/|-------|/|-----|/|--------
()
||
||
--------------------
true
L86CB = Surge protection trouble startup lockout;
L3BHSTCK = Comp operating limit BH start check perm logic;
L30CC_STCK = Fire protection trouble-GT start inhibited;
l33cl1 = Fire protection aux/turb/laod compt CO2 locked;
l45fp1 = Fire protection aux/turb/laod compt fire pre-detec;
l27f = Fire protection trip relay undervoltage;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
Best regards
Neo
prestate poststate
( )---------|/|-------( )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
"You asked why this input is not inverted, but l12hblt is inverted.
The input could have been inverted, and it would work just fine.
Of course, the "signal name" would be exactly opposite of what it
should be because it would be a logic "1" when the L.O. Tank
temperature was less than normal. Sometimes these things,even
though they could go one way or the other (with a signal name
change to make it easier) are just continued for decades--and this
is one of them."
I am confused about "sigal name",the name of signal? If does
mean name of signal, i think whether or not the signal is inverted,
is has no effect on signal name,just a name.
So, this confuses me .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
In one reply, i typed one rung below:
L45FP_STCK L3STCK
---.....------|/|---------()
L45FP_STCK L3STCK
---.....------||---------()
l26ql L3STCK1
------|/|------ - - - ----( )
and the Low L.O. Tank Temp Low alarm rung could have been
written:
l26ql L26QN_ALM
------| |-----------------( )
L86CBA L86CB
--------||----------|------( )
|
L86TV |
--------||----------|
|
L30CBC_AL |
--------||----------|
L4 L14HS L520ONLINE L20CBX L20CBZ
-------||---------||---------||------------( )---------------(T)
L86CBA = Cool seal air comp bleed/valve pos trouble close (what
is cool seal air)
L86TV = Inlet guide control troubles
L30CBC_AL=Comp bld valves failure to open
L14HS L4 L14HSX
---------||--------------||-----( )
|
L14HSX L94X |
------||------|/|----
A>B----|
| L14HSX L3TFLT
---------| |---------||-----------( )
A = CAKCPD(35psi)
B = CPD
L14HSX = Auxiliary signal to L14HS
If CPD is less than 35psi when gas turbine is under normal
operation (L14HS is logic 1), then L3TFLT is logic 1 (indicates the
pressure transducer is in fault?)
I was wondering the function of the L14HSX signal, and can
L14HSX in the L3TFLT rung be replaced by L14HS?
I am confused with the signal L94X. In the toolbox, its description
is: Startup check stop GT normal shutdown (startup or
shutdown?). And i found 94 is related to tripping or trip-free relay
in ANSI device number.
L39VD3_GT L39VD3
--------||------------( )
|
L39VD3_GEN |
--------||-----
|
L39VD3_LG |
--------||-----
LFPAG0LL LAUXGAS_PT
-------|/|------------------( )
|
LFPAG0 |
-------||-----------
|
LFTAGI false |
-------||------||---
|
CA43P2 false |
-------||------||---
A>B----|
| L14HSX L3TFLT
---------| |---------||-----------( )
A=CAKCPD(35psi)
B=CPD
L14HSX=Auxiliary signal to L14HS
And i tried to find the differece between L14HS and L14HSX.
L14HS L4 L14HSX
---------||--------------||-----( )
|
L14HSX L94X |
------||------|/|----
L94X=Startup check stop GT normal shutdown;
L14HS=HP operating speed signal;
As for L3TFLT,if CPD is less than 35psi when gas turbine is under
normal operation,then L3TFLT is logic 1.
I was wondering the function of the L14HSX,and whether can
L14HSX in the L3TFLT rung be replaced by L14HS.
I am confused about L94X.In the toolbox, its description is
:Startup check stop GT normal shutdown.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
A>B----|
| L14HSX L3TFLT
---------| |---------||-----------( )
A=CAKCPD(35psi)
B=CPD
L14HSX=Auxiliary signal to L14HS
And i tried to find the differebce between L14HS and L14HSX.
L14HS L4 L14HSX
---------||--------------||-----( )
|
L14HSX L94X |
------||------|/|----
L94X=Startup check stop GT normal shutdown;
L14HS=HP operating speed signal;
As for L3TFLT,if CPD is less than 35psi when gas turbine is under
normal operation,then L3TFLT is logic 1.
I was wondering the function of the L14HSX,and whether can
L14HSX in the L3TFLT rung be replaced by L14HS.
I am confused about L94X.In the toolbox, its description is
:Startup check stop GT normal shutdown.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
L3RS1 L3RS2 L5VPRO_LATCH L3RS
-------||----------||------------|/|----------( )
L3RS1=Startup check stop ready to start 1;
L3RS2=Startup check stop ready to start 2;
L5VPRO_LATCH=Protective VPRO card trip-latch;
As we just finished L3RS1,i think L3RS2 is my assugnment this
time.
L52ONLINE L3COMM_IO L3ACS L3RS2
------|/|---------||-------||------( )
L52ONLINE= Unit online ;
L3COMM_IO=VCMI state changes for <R>,<S>,<T> OK;
L3ACS=Auxiliary check servos;
Timer_sec _Counter
L2FZ(log_in) (log_out)L62TT-----------L62TT(INC)
(AT_CNT)L62TT2
K62TT(pu_del) K62TT2(MAX_CNT)
L1XY(RESET)
L94XZ L94T
------||---------|----()
|
L28FD L83RB |
-----|/|-----||---
|
L2CANT |
------||---------
L94XZ=Startup check stop fired shutdown
L28FD=Flame detected
L83RB=startup check stop ramp to blowout selected
L2CANT=Trip on can flameout timed out
I confronted withmany signal name descriptions that start with
"startup check stop",while i think these signals has nothing to do
startup check,just like L94XZ.
As we can see from above rung,there are three kinds of
conditions that will lead L94T to logic 1.
And i will start with L28FD and L83RB.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
(TNH>K60RB)----
| L28FDY L60RB
------------| |-----|/|--------( )
According to the above rung,when TNH is less than 30% rated
speed or Flame is not detected,then L60RB is logic 0.And while
L94SD is logic 1,then L83RB is logic 1.When l83RB is logic 1 and
Flame is not detected,then L94T is logic 1.
It seems that whether TNH is less than 30% rated speed or not
doesn't matter,for when flame is not detected no matter what
value of THN is the L94T will be logic 1(with l94SD=1).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
L94XZ L94T
-----------||---------------------( )
L52GY L94X L94XZ
-----------||--------||----------(T)
8min
If STOP command was sent for more than 8min and the breaker
is open,then L94T is logic 1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------
L28FD=Flame detected
L83RB=startup check stop ramp to blowout selected
L60RB L94SD L28FD L94T
---------|/|--------||--------|/|------( )
L60RB=startup check stop above ramp to blowout speed
L94SD=startup check stop shutdown with breaker open
(TNH>K60RB)----
| L28FDY L60RB
------------| |-----|/|--------( )
(TNH>K60RB)----
| L60RB
------------| |------( )
L60RB L94SD L94T
---------|/|--------||------------( )
Is it Ok?
2) There are four flame detectors while there are 18 can
combustors. so if one of the can that not installed with flame
detector blows out during a normal shutdown, fuel will not cut
off, and this hot gas path component will suffer high thermal
stress, right?
Best regards
Neo
L4PST
-----||-------
|
L4PRET |
-----||-------
|
L4POST |
-----||-------
|
L3SMT |
-----||-------
|
L4IGVT |
-----||-------
|
LFPAUXG2LLX |
-----||-------
L4PST = Protective status trip logic 1
L4PRET = Pre-ignition trip
LPOST = Post-ignition trip
L3SMT = Starting means device trip
L4IGVT = Inlet guide vane control trouble trip
LFPAUXG2LLX = Auxgas P2 pressure low low delayed
According to the above rung, the trip signals are classified into six
categories,and i will start with L4PST.
L4PSTX1
-----|/|-------
|
L4PSTX2 |
-----|/|-------
|
L4PSTX3 |
-----|/|-------
|
L4PSTX4 |
-----|/|-------
l45ftx1
-----||------
|
l45ftx2 |
-----||------|
|
l94f1b false|
----||---||--
As already said I'm also on this journey with you and Neo. I've
learned to read the Rungs and interpret how it'll work. I've
managed to get some of the Application Code running in our
Speedtronic Mark VI, and I've a question regarding inversion
masking.
let me read the Rung:
when L86CB is logic "0" AND L4Y is logic "1" AND l27qel is logic
"0" AND L3CP is logic "1" AND l63fdl is logic "0" OR L43FTG is
logic "1" L3STCK2 will be logic "1".
now interpreting it:
When there is NO compressor bleed valve or IGV position lockout
AND loss of master protective timer is complete AND Emergency
lube oil pump is NOT undervoltage AND Customer permissive to
start is selected AND Distillate fuel supply pressure is NOT low OR
transfer to gas is selected, start check 2 is completed.
Coming to my question, I think the signal l27qel and l63fdl are
inverted.
For l27qel: When EOP is not under-voltage, the NC contacts will
remain closed and thus it will allow L3STCK2 to pickup. When
EOP is under-voltage the NC contacts will open and will prevent
L3STCK2 to pickup. Thus when the contacts are closed then only
L3STCK2 coil is allowed to pick up. This ensure when the contacts
are closed EOP is not under-voltage and the switch is also in
healthy condition, thus doing the work of supervision too.
Instead, had GE had chose the contacts to close when EOP is
under-voltage, we wouldn't have known even if the circuit is
intact or not.
For l63fdl, When the distillate supply pressure is not low the NC
contacts will remain closed thus alowing L3STCK2 to pickup.
When the distillate fuel supply pressure is low, the NC contacts
will open, thus preventing L3STCK2 from picking up. Thus here
also the contacts must be close, which ensures that the distillate
supply pressure is normal and the switch circuit is intact.
Am I right? I've tried hard to understand the concept of inversion
masking by reading (and re-reading) your explanations in this
thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
_____________________________________________________
_________________
As you asked about the machine at our site
in http://control.com/thread/1403711658#1404062279.
It is a PG5361. It is having conventional combustors. The
machine is duel fuel capable. It can be operated on Natural Gas
or Naptha, but it is operated on NG only since last 10 years. out
of two machines, one was installed in 1988 and the other in
1996. Both the machines can be operated in Droop and
Isochronous mode. Our plant generally (not all the time though)
remains separated from the grid. Both the machines exhausts in
HRSG. This arrangement is having a By-Pass stack.
Physical | Software
Contact |
27QE Input Screw l27qel
---| |----------o------------------(I)---
The "I" in the software coil for l27qel means the input signal is
inverted, which means that when the normally open contact of
27QE that's connected to the Speedtronic input screw
is closed l27qel WILL NOT be a logic "1"; instead, it WILL be a
logic "0"--which is the inverse (opposite) of what one would think
it should be when the contact was closed.
If the normally open contact of 27QE were connected to real
physical electromechanical relay and it was closed (when there
WAS voltage to the Emer. L.O. Pump motor starter) the
electromechanical relay coil would be ENERGIZED, it would be
"1". Without some additional electronic devices there can be no
"inversion" of a hard-wired contact driving an electromechanical
relay coil. But, using software a closed input will NOT cause the
software coil it drives to be a logic "1"--it will cause it to be a
logic "0" (the inverse of what one would expect). And when the
contacts are open, an inverted software coil will NOT be a logic
"0", but it will be a logic "1" (the inverse of what one would
expect).
Now, after the inversion, in software normally open and normally
closed work exactly as one would expect when the associated coil
driving them is a logic "1" or a logic "0". When l27qel is a logic
"0", normally open contacts associated with l27qel will be open,
and when l27qel is a logic "1" then normally open contacts will be
closed. Normally closed contacts of l27qel will be closed when
l27qel is a logic "0", and normally closed contacts of l27qel will be
open when l27qel is a logic "1".
So, when the contact of 27QE (in this case, it should be a
normally open contact, that is open where there is an
undervoltage, and closed when there is NO undervoltage) is
CLOSED, then l27qel will be a logic "0" (NOT a logic "1" as would
be expected) and normally closed contacts of l27qel would be
CLOSED--because the Emer. L.O. Pump motor voltage is NOT
low.
Just apply the same logic (thinking) to l63fdl. A normally open
contact of the pressure switch will be open when the liquid fuel
supply pressure is LOW, and closed with the liquid fuel supply
pressure is NOT low (when the supply pressure is normal). l63fdl
will be a logic "1" when the liquid fuel supply pressure is Low,
and because that input is inverted that means that the contact
will be OPEN when the supply pressure is low--which will be the
case when there is low pressure (or no pressure) and the input is
wired to a normally open contact of the pressure switch. The
normally closed contact in the rung will be closed when the liquid
fuel supply pressure is NOT low (when l63fdl is a logic "0", which
will be when the contact of 63FD is closed, and a normally open
contact of 63FD will be closed when the pressure is above the
setpoint of the switch).
Finally, think about it this way. If a normally closed contact of
63FD were wired to the Speedtronic, then when there WAS
pressure to the switch the normally closed contact would be
open. If that contact was wired to a non-inverted input called
l63fdl then l63fdl would be a logic "0" when there was pressure
(which is all well and good!).
However, if a wire falls off one of the terminals of that normally
closed contact of 63FD AND at some point after that the liquid
fuel supply pressure drops below the switch setpoint and the
normally closed contact closes the Speedtronic will NEVER know
that the liquid fuel supply pressure dropped. So, GE uses contacts
that are to be CLOSED when the condition is NORMAL, and OPEN
to alarm or trip (when the condition is NOT normal). Better to get
a false alarm when a wire comes loose or a switch fails but the
condition is normal, than not to get an alarm when there is a real
problem.
WHEW!!! I gotta finish packing, kick the wife and kiss the dogs--
er, ..., uh, ..., I mean kiss the wife and kick the dogs. Er, ..., uh,
..., I gotta go! Please read this, and re-read it and re-read it. It's
a LOT to digest in even three readings, but at some point it
should start to make sense.
ALOHA!!!