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UT 60 geometrical
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General Discussions Technical Discussions 7651 views

Job Offers 11:41 Jan- UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
Job Seeks
Illdan
Hi!
Classified Ads
About NDT.net I have a problem that i was wondering if anyone could help me with.
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About Articles & News
A couple of days ago i did UT on a bridge, two 16mm plates welded togheter
(V-Joint, 25-30 angle)
It was a little misalignement (1-2mm).

When i used the 60 i got an indication echo on a depth of 8mm, pretty much all
along the weld, from one side of the joint.

We grinded the weld at several places and found that there was nothing wrong,
some geometrical problem must have made the indication echo start?! If i didn't
know any better i would have guessed it was a lack of fus (high, sharp echo,
DAC+4dB)

Does anyone know what made this echo occur? I'm pretty new at UT and really
want to know why this things happen. some more info

Soundpath from indication 50mm

- " - from probe 30 mm

11:53 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).

Hi there,
It hard to explain your things happened with given information. But you should
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creed aware that if the defect is lack of fusion it will be hard to detect by visual after cut
NDT out the weld. Did you do MPI right after grinding, it is sensitive to lack of fusion
Inspector, evident inside the cut weld. That is my opinion.
n.n., Cheers.
Joined Jul
2009
20

12:06 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
mark In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).

Dear Illdan,
did you do MPI or DPI after grinding?
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Often you cant find LOF visualy.

12:21 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
Illdan In Reply to mark at 12:06 Jan-24-2013 .

I did, MPI after grinding, yes, didn't find anything. Altough i think you pretty often
can see the LOF after grinding, the welders also used a blowtorch (is that the right
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word?) and they couldnt see anything when opening with that either.

12:35 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 12:21 Jan-24-2013 .

Hi,
So the thing you need to do now is calculating shear wave beam profile with
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creed exactly prep of the weld, build up the sketch of probe position vs prep of weld and
NDT and the measurement of beam profile. If everything is correctly and very sure,
Inspector, you could be confident to say they are defects. Remember NDT is an
n.n., interpretation not 100% for sure. If possible you can try to do RT to confirm.
Joined Jul
2009
20

15:29 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
In Reply to creed at 12:35 Jan-24-2013 .
1
Calling a repair on an indication from one probe, one direction is dangerous.
Especially a 60 degree. You dont mention stand-off distance.
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Nigel
Armstrong Confirmation of presence of a defect should be possible and is needed from a
Engineering, different direction or with a different angle.
- Specialist

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NDT.net Forum: UT 60 geometrical problem Page 2 of 5

services Unless you work with focussed probes, beam spread is broad and reflections from
United geometry with the lower angle emissions of your beam spread can lead to techs
Kingdom, calling unnecessary repairs.
Joined Oct
2000
1094

15:58 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
Cole In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).

Hello,
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I first have to tell you that like stated above a tech should always be very cautious
when calling a defect when you can only verify the location from one side of the
weld. Secondly, I am fairly confident that what you are seeing is a mode
converted signal that is reflecting off of the cap of your weld. I have seen this
happen many times when using a 60 deg shearwave. Most of the time this signal
if mapped out using your surface distance calculation will map outside of the weld
cap; however, not always. My recommendation would go back to mapping out
your indication on a weld profile drawing, from both sides of the weld. Typically
defect classification is 90% flaw location and 10% signal analysis. Hope this helps.

17:20 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

24-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).
1
You found this indication at full skip so several possibilities apart from the ones
already mentioned come to mind.
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Jon Wallis Did you rely on the flaw detector to tell you depth? Many techs make mistakes by
NDT blindly relying on the electronics especially on full skip. Make a scale drawing of
Inspector, - the weld and plot the echo with a good old fashioned sharp pencil, ruler and
Netherlands, protractor. This will show you whether your echo is reflecting from the parallel
Joined Feb opposite surface or maybe mode converting.
2010 Are you sure it was a 60 degree probe? 50mm beam path with 16mm wall
626
thickness is approximately full skip to the surface with a 45 degree probe.
Did you examine from the other face to try and find the indication at half skip?
This confirmation is one way of doing the check that Nigel suggested.
If you find an indication at full skip and cannot confirm it with another angle or by
scanning from another face, before calling a repair you can ask for the cap to be
removed at one or two positions and look for the indication at half skip from the
opposing face. If you conclude that the echo was from the geometry, no
unnecessary repair will have been made.

09:12 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

25-2013
Illdan In Reply to Jon Wallis at 17:20 Jan-24-2013 .

Thanks for all your answers! Since i'm the only one performing UT in my company
it's good to have place where you can ask more seasoned operators.
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I didn't find the indication with any other angle, tried both 45 and 70, that's what
caught my suspicion, also only one face of the weld was accessible. yes i'm sure it
was a 60 degree.

Sorry Nigel, i don't know what stand-off distance means, tried to find the swedish
word for it but with no luck :)

10:06 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

25-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 09:12 Jan-25-2013 .

Illdan
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Nigel Stand off distance (SOD) is the trigonemetric calculation based on the refracted
Armstrong angle (eg 60 degrees) and the displayed beam path. So it is the distance from the
Engineering, sound emission point of your probe to directly above the reflection point. If the
- Specialist SOD measures to a point outside the weld cap/HAZ then its one indication that
services the signal may be spurious, eg mode conversion.
United
Kingdom, Hope this is understandable, if not consult any UT textbook
Joined Oct
2000
1094

10:20 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

25-2013
Illdan In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 10:06 Jan-25-2013 .

Ah! then i know what you mean! it was 30mm (with x-point 14mm) i wrote that in
the first message " from probe 30 mm"
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12:00 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

25-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 10:20 Jan-25-2013 .

Go back to SOHCAHTOA trig mnemonic.

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Nigel 16mm thick, 60 degree probe 1/2 skip distance BP = 32mm, SOD = 27mm
Armstrong approx
Engineering, Full skip distance BP = 64mm, SOD = 54mm approx.
- Specialist
services 50 mm BP for 60 degree probe calculates to approx 43mm SOD, how have you
United arrived at 30mm?

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NDT.net Forum: UT 60 geometrical problem Page 3 of 5

Kingdom,
Joined Oct The math doesnt lie! If it doesnt plot out in the weld then 95% of the time it isnt
2000 in the weld The other 4% your using the wrong data (mistaken probe angle,
1094 wrong factors). Allowance of 1% for strange contributing factors.

12:32 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

25-2013
Illdan In Reply to Nigel Armstrong at 12:00 Jan-25-2013 .

Forgot to tell you that it was welded with a root support - 5mm thick, might that
have something to do with the data recieved?
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12:44 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

25-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 12:32 Jan-25-2013 .

Thats a possibility if the backing strip is still attached!

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Nigel 100 % description of an inspection problem is challenging!
Armstrong
Engineering,
- Specialist
services
United
Kingdom,
Joined Oct
2000
1094

16:14 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

27-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 12:32 Jan-25-2013 .

Mario
Talarico Translate
NDT
Inspector,
Italy,
Joined May
2010
337

[zoom]

Illdan,
the signal from the bottom of the backing strip attached is a possibility. Another
possibility is the shear wave reflection from the outer cap, after simple reflection
in root: this is compatible with the sound path observed: 32 (half skip path) + 16
(vertical thickness path) = 48 + external cap misaleneament + root =
misaleneament approximately 52.
Longitudinal mode conversion, instead, require external cap excessively large and
minor path as result of the speed change .
Is to be noted that each of these possibilities requires the same probe position
and it is an operating error to be corrected: with incidence in root is a big hazard
to perform the examination in reflection on the body welding
Greetings

17:01 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

27-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).
1
What you described is normally a reflection from the root to the cap, and this
happens particularly with the 60. Normally, seen from top, this false call lies few
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mm outside the weld on the base material opposite side from inspection,
massimo
carminati
Consultant,
AUT
specialist
IMG
Ultrasuoni
Srl,
Italy,
Joined Apr
2007
688

08:09 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

29-2013
Illdan In Reply to massimo carminati at 17:01 Jan-27-2013 .

Thanks so much for all your help! It helped alot!

Does anyone have a tip for a good software to make sketches of welds and draw
Translate
up ultrasonic beam pats and so on the computer?

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NDT.net Forum: UT 60 geometrical problem Page 4 of 5

13:36 Jan- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

29-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 08:09 Jan-29-2013 .

Illdan,
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Eclipse Scientific makes a program called the ESBeam tool which is quite good. It
James Scalf runs CAD, can do 3-D imaging and shows just about everything you may need to
NDT see about your sound path. There are other programs as well but from what I
Inspector, have read (I have not used the software yet but have ordered it) the ESBeam tool
Royal is the most recommended.
Canadian Air
Force,
Canada,
Joined Oct
2012
254

10:22 Aug- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

22-2013
Mokshda In Reply to massimo carminati at 17:01 Jan-27-2013 .

What method would you use to differentiate between an actual root indication and
a reflection from the root gap? I am very new to NDT and I don't know the
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limitations of the different methods yet.

Thank you.

12:50 Aug- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

22-2013
In Reply to Mokshda at 10:22 Aug-22-2013 .

If by root gap you mean lack of root fusion or lack of penetration, careful
measurement is the way to determine the difference between a healthy root and a
Translate
Jon Wallis defective one. A root echo will appear at a specific measured distance between
NDT the index point of the probe and the centre of the weld (the stand-off distance
Inspector, - explained by Nigel). When lorf or lop is present the measured distance will be
Netherlands, slightly further away from the weld.
Joined Feb This requires accuracy with measurement of probe angle, index point, maximising
2010 your echo.
626 As I suggested before, make a pencil-and-paper drawing and you can 'see' what
your ultrasound is reflecting from.

19:16 Aug- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

22-2013
In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).

As you can see from all the confident replies, we have all made the same mistake.
The skill of the technician is to learn from them and not to repeat them. All of the
Translate
andrew above statements are true as they have found from their own experience, so Ill
cunningham add to them.
NDT 1 Never trust the sound after the bounce.
Inspector 2 Spay water or WD40 onto the surface to see if it affects the signal.
Canada, 3 Always confirm with a 70 or another probe angle.
Joined Jun 4 After you find a reflector, try to eliminate it, before you call it as a defect.
2008
238
Other advice. There are some specs that state that the technician is to use only
use one probe (70) when the thickness is less than 25.4 mm and to reject by
amplitude. In my opinion. The spec tries to tie the hands of the technician and
takes no responsibility for their nations bridges falling down.

When I was writing my book, I was chatted to an engineer about the title, we
discussed how the knowledge was obtained. He came up with a title 30 years of
F**K UPs.

All Im saying is, you have made one of the most common mistakes in UT. You
have now learned and wont do it again. We are all on a learning curve.

All the best

17:07 Jun- Re: UT 60 geometrical problem Post Reply

15-2015
soumya In Reply to Illdan at 11:41 Jan-24-2013 (Opening).
halder
normaly 60 degree probe has the greatter modconversion problm , and it has also
bettar resolution ....
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sometime it will show the wrong backwall echo, bt it is no prboblm, ony u have to
chake the indication echos depth and beam path. means if your indication depth
20mm in 40 mm job thekness, bempath must be 40mm, measn you have to use
the formula T*sec@.

Email Address Notify Me

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NDT.net Forum: UT 60 geometrical problem Page 5 of 5

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