Conversation Between Hellene and hellenic Neopagan

8-9/7/2013

An online conversation between ethnic Hellene Stilian Ariston and hellenic NeoPagan
Chris Aldridge. (The permission to publicize this conversation was given by Stilian
Ariston.) The conversation started when the Facebook Group Society For The Protection
and Promotion of Polytheism presented a new neopagan group identifying itself as
hellenic polytheistic. The Text has been rectified.

Source:
Society For The Protection and Promotion of Polytheism (Facebook): Temple Of The
Greek Gods.

Update, 10/7/2013:
The mistake was corrected. The mentioned Society finally deleted the contentious
message.
The ethnic Hellene Stilian Ariston responded on the wall post: They are NeoPagans
playing Hellenic polytheists. Hellenic polytheism is Hellenic polytheism not neopagan
practices. They should not use the word Hellenism to promote their beliefs. It's indecent.
We ethnic Hellenes don't want neopagan groups to use our names and symbols, and
distort our religious identity. It is sad that the Society For The Protection and Promotion of
Polytheism presents them as being part of Greek polytheism. It's outrageous and I hope
the mods will correct this post. We Hellenes have often explained that we reject
NeoPaganism, neopagan intolerance (I am part of your tradition, whether you like it or
not) and stated that the so-called Neo-Hellenic Polytheism does not concern us. So
please do not present them as hellenic polytheists, for they are NeoPagans.
Chris Aldridge, founder of the mentioned Group responded: Stilian, I am the founder and
Priest of this temple, and I am Hellene by blood, pal. I have it running through my veins.
Most Hellenic Reconstructionists here in America are probably English muffin inside, so
don't tell me I am not Hellenic. I worship the Hellenic Gods and I have Hellenic blood. I am
bound to Hellas by my very being, whether you like that or not. My ancestors came from
Zante aka Zakynthos. So you can take your ignorant intolerance somewhere else. And the
last I checked, the Greek Gods do not belong to you or to me. They are the Greek Gods
and there are many different ways to worship Them. You have no right to tell Them who is
relevant to Them. They will decide that.
What you fail to realize and fail to present to people is the fact that Greece was not a
unified nation in ancient times. There was no one correct practice or one correct belief
that all Greeks agreed upon. Each City State had its own calendar, practices and even
myths, therefore there are many different ways to be Hellenic. Furthermore, you clearly
don't know the practices of my temple either. We uphold many of the old beliefs and
practices, and we don't go too far outside of the realm of ancient Greece. We just believe
in spiritual relevance instead of conformity.
And why am I not a Greek Polytheist? I only worship the Greek Gods and I draw my
practice and ethics from ancient Hellas and its philosophies. The problem is that people
like you want a right of claim to it, you want to unite Hellas all under your name and your
way. That did not fly in ancient times and it won't fly today. Polytheism refers to Theism. If
someone only worshiped the Christian God, they would be a Christian Theist, would they
not? Then why is someone who only worships the Greek Gods not considered a Greek
Polytheist? Ridiculous. Good day.

Stilian Ariston: I know who you are Chris Aldridge, and let me tell you this: I don't care
about your blood. I am not a nationalist. Modern Greeks have no or at least not only
greek blood in our veins, it's a neo-greek legend. We concentrate on the ethos, not on
blood. And your ethos is not hellenic at all. Modern Greece and Hellenismos are two
different things. My father is Greek and my mother too, but until the day I decided to
embrace Hellenismos, I was Christian, a Hellene only on paper. Blood is not an argument.
And yes, there are many ways within Hellenism to honour the Theoi, but NeoPaganism is
not one of them. You are blaming me for being ignorant and telling me that the Gods don't
belong to me. Did I ever say anything like that? No. You can claim that you believe in the
Gods, that's not the issue here. Labelling your neopagan cult or group as Hellenic
polytheistic is the problem. If you would have been honest, we wouldn't be arguing right
now. The nation is a modern concept. The Hellenes were an ETHNOS, a group with
common religion, culture, language and customs. Yes, there was a correct way to practice,
and orthopraxy was the core of Hellenic piety. The way you describe Hellenismos applies
to EVERY ethnic religion, for they are not homogeneous, but diverse, just like nature. This
diversity doesn't include NeoPaganism that didn't exist in ancient times. Hellenismos
evolved, because it had to. It was always specific, but it became more specific in late
antiquity (the time Julian established Hellenismos as the official name of Hellenic
tradition) and in the time of Pletho and Marullus.
There were different ways to be Hellenic, but none of these ways were Neopagan.
NeoPaganism arose from Occultism, the magic system of the western christian world
and has nothing to do with Hellenic identity or ethos. Unless you can prove that
NeoPaganism was part of the Religion of the Greeks. You have to practice Hellenic
polytheism in order to be a Hellenic polytheist, not NeoPaganism, Occultism or
Christianity. If you don't practice / honour the Gods in the GREEK way, you are not
Hellenic at all (unless you confuse Hellenism with what you called Hellenic blood). The
problem with intolerant people like you is that you are unwilling to take no for an answer.
No, we don't want NeoPaganism in our tradition, no, we don't want to embrace
neopagan concepts or terms. No, we won't allow you or anyone else to alienate or
ridicule our identity. Hellenism is not a game, but our cultural identity, language and our
way of life. So the best answer we can offer to people with your I can be X, but label
myself Y and incorporate my cult in your tradition, whether you like it or not-attitude, is the
Lakota's respond to your movement in their Declaration of War Against Exploiters of
Lakota Spirituality http://spiritofthelakepeople.blogspot.de/2010/01/declaration-of-war-
against-exploiters.html We are getting back on our feet again and we will protect our
culture from monotheism and its many faces (Occultism, New age, NeoPaganism).
Thank you.

Chris Aldridge: And why am I not a Greek Polytheist? I only worship the Greek Gods and
I draw my practice and ethics from ancient Hellas and its philosophies. The problem is that
people like you want a right of claim to it, you want to unite Hellas all under your name and
your way. That did not fly in ancient times and it won't fly today. Polytheism refers to
Theism, not to practices. If someone only worshiped the Christian God, they would be a
Christian Theist would they not? Then why is someone who only worships the Greek Gods
not a Greek Polytheist? Ridiculous.
So just keep running your mouth because that's all you are is mouth.

Stilian Ariston: You can run your propaganda, exploit and deceive only because
Hellenismos is not a recognized statutory Body yet, so you can take advantage of our
situation. Fine, but know that there are people out there you can not deceive, because
they are ethnic Hellenes, Hellenic Polytheists or just People who know about Hellenism.
So, for now we can't take legal action against your unacceptable behaviour. But I myself,
the Supreme Council of Ethnic Hellenes, Timothy Alexander and others won't allow you
ruining our profile and exploiting our tradition. We will warn people and protect our selves
and our tradition. We didn't risk our lives, our safety and health to open Hellenismos to a
neopagan cult with ignorant leaders.

Chris Aldridge: I AM AN ETHNIC HELLENE! Do you understand that? I am Hellenic by

blood, so to say I am not Hellenic is completely false. All you have pushed against me and
my temple is nothing but propaganda, and yet you accuse me of pushing such things.
What deceit have I done? I have never told anyone I am something I am not. Never
claimed to be a Reconstructionist, never tried to take anything from anyone. In fact, I have
had people come to me seeking the traditional path and I directed them to the proper
sources for that. All we have done is practice our religion. Tell people we are NeoPagans
because we tell them the same thing. Tell them we are not Reconstructionists because we
tell them the same thing. You will not tell anything to anyone that we ourselves have not
already told them. This whole cult conspiracy is all in your head, dude.
Timothy Alexander is a self-published lulu author and not considered a scholar on ancient
Greek religion. I've tried to debate him before when he and his followers have attacked us
and he blocks us. But since you bring him up, he also says in his book that there is no
one true way to worship the Greek Gods. So which is it, do you ascribe to a doctrine so
to speak or do you not? You can't tell people that there is no one true way and then fault
them for not doing it your way. I think you do in fact want a one true way but are
disguising it as otherwise.
Lastly, I have Hellenic friends in Greece who are Reconstructionists and they are not like
you. They do not attack me and ascribe to the hate, elitism and intolerance that you do.
Read the Maxims Of Delphi sometime, like the part about dealing kindly with others and
not speaking ill of another. Yes, I called you all mouth and that was wrong, but then again I
don't make it my life's mission to attack others like you do just because they are different.
People like you break the Maxims constantly.
: Yes, I have Hellenic blood and I worship only the Hellenic Gods. How am I not Hellenic?
Yes, you did say essentially that the Gods belong to you because you claim that my
worship is invalid and that I am not doing it right, but rather that YOUR way of worship is
the correct way to honor the Gods. So yes, you did lay claim to the Greek Gods, which is
by far the most hubristic thing I can think of. Like I said, we have not deceived anyone, we
are completely honest about who we are and what we believe and practice. You're just
another hateful bigot who can't stand diversity. You say you used to be a Christian, I can
tell, the hateful fundamentalism that you were probably exposed to has still not left you. It's
bleeding over into your Hellenic path.
You say you don't want me in your tradition and yet I have not tried to enter it. You are
falsely accusing me of trying to be traditional when I have never been. You still can't seem
to get that through your head. You are traditional, I am Neo. Understand? Because what
you fail to realize still is simply this: There is NO one way to be Hellenic. You won't tell
anyone anything I have not already told them about myself, and Timothy Alexander is a
self-published lulu author and not a scholar. But he also says in his book that there's no
one true way to worship the Greek Gods.

Stilian Ariston: Mr. Aldridge, an ethnic Hellene is someone who participates in the
ETHOS of the Hellenes. Your blood can't be Hellenic, because nobody's blood is Hellenic.
Modern Greeks - including my parents and yours - have turkish, vlachic, arvanitic and
gothic blood in their veins, their religion is christianity and their culture is romiosyni. Your
blood is every bit hellenic as your cult. Ethnic Hellene is synonymous to hellenic
Ethnicus, and you are not an Ethnicus. I really don't care about your nationalist fantasies,
the issue here is calling your cult hellenic polytheism and not practicing Hellenic. Hellenic
Polytheism is what the ancient Greeks, Pletho etc. practiced and not NeoPaganism in
Hellenic cloak. Hellenic polytheists can only be what you call reconstructionists, I prefer
to call them just Hellenic Polytheists, because I don't use neopagan terms and concepts.
Otherwise Hellenismos would not be the name of Hellenic tradition. We practice something
that was already there, not something new we've created ourselves. And you can read
about what was there in scientific books (in which you won't find any neopagan element).
Timothy Alexander is a Hellenic Polytheist and self-published Author like you are, but he is
a true hellenic Polytheist, that's the difference. Yes, there is no true way to honour the
Gods, but there is orthopraxy; hellenic can only be what's historical correct. People in
Sparta practiced different than people in Athens, but they followed their own genuine
orthopraxy. You can choose the spartan or athenian way, it's all hellenic. If you think you
can be a Hellenic polytheist without practicing Hellenic Polytheism, you are wrong. If you
are not honouring the Gods in the Greek way you can not be a Hellenic polytheist. It's that
simple. The true way in Hellenismos is the Greek way. Now, if you honour the Gods in
neopagan, christian or whatsoever ways, then you don't practice Hellenismos, but
something else. The core of eusebeia is not the belief in Gods, but practice in the ways
of our fathers. Hellenismos is a traditional religion. You can call me what you like, our
issue is not a personal one.

Chris Aldridge: Let me ask you some questions. You care greatly about proper Hellenic
practice, do you not?
In one breath you tell me I am not Hellenic, then in the next you tell me there is no one
correct way to be Hellenic. You can't have it both ways. I WILL continue to call myself a
Hellenic Polytheist because that's what I am.
Yes, I am a self-published lulu author too, but the difference is that I don't claim myself to
be a master of truth and knowledge and a judge of all those around me. Let me ask you
some questions, you care greatly about proper Hellenic practice, yes?
And by the way, an Ethnic group is defined as people who share a common heritage or
bloodline.
And more so, how do you know the practices of me or my temple if you've never seen me
in person or been to any of our events? I am willing to bet you will be surprised that it's not
that different from your own practices.
Belief and practice are not the same thing. Belief is basically Theism, practice is action.
This is why I call myself a Hellenic Polytheist, because Polytheism is about Theism and
belief in Gods, it's not about practice. Certainly, it's part of traditional Hellenic practice, but
it is not exclusively tied to one. Someone who believes in the Christian God, for example,
would be a Christian Theist. They may not be a Catholic or a Protestant, but they are
Christian.

Stilian Ariston: You can't have Hellenic blood, unless you are an ancient Greek. Blood is
not a provider of ethos, worldview, religion or language. Even if you've had hellenic blood
- what an absurd Idea! -, your ethos is not hellenic at all. That's all I need to know. You can
believe in anything you want and practice anything you like, that's your problem, but calling
your cult Hellenic and presenting your group as hellenic polytheistic is an issue for us,
because your false claim harms our profile and people may think that Hellenic religion
includes a traditional and a non-traditional branch, which is not the case. You don't need
any blood to be a Hellenic Polytheist, but the ethos and worldview of the Hellenes. And if
you want to be an ethnic Hellene, you also have to speak the Hellenic language.
In order to be a Hellenic Polytheist, your WAY honouring the gods must be the Greek way.
Julian (origin: roman), Sallustius (origin: roman), Porphyry (origin: phoenician) and
Iamblichus (origin: syrian) haven't had Greek blood in their veins, but they were Hellenes.
Why? Because of their ethos and worldview. The ethnos itself is a group of people who
share a common religion, culture and virtue system. We Hellenes don't believe in the
Gods, we recognize and honour them in the GREEK WAY, otherwise we wouldn't practice
Hellenismos, but something else. Hellenismos means of the Greeks, Hellenism [...]. II.
use of a pure Greek style and idiom [...]. H. G. Liddell, R. Scott: A Greek-English Lexicon.
p. 536, Oxford University Press, New York 1996. In Hellenismos, religion is not a matter of
personal likes and dislikes. My way has to be the way of my ethnos. If I am a bigot, then
the Lakota are bigots too. You are intolerant and can't take no for an answer. We have
enough diversity in Hellenism so we don't need a new one. There are many ways to be
Hellenic, and all these ways come from ancient Greece, otherwise they wouldn't be
hellenic. So prove me that NeoPaganism is (ancient) Greek. I am just an ordinary
Hellene; every Hellene is a traditionalist, because our religion is traditional one, what else
could we be than traditionalists?
You don't understand: Hellenic Polytheism is ancient, so if you practice H.P., you practice
an ancient and historical-known religion. Hellenismos has many ways, the way of sparta,
athens, and so on, but it contains no neopagan or islamic or whatsoever way. Diversity
doesn't mean that every new cult is Hellenic, it means that in ancient times the Hellenic
ethnos had, not countless, but many ways to honour the gods. But these ways were
Hellenic. There may be no true ways in a universalistic sense, but our way has to be
Greek. That's all we need.

Chris Aldridge: So all of the ways to be Hellenic come from the ancient Greeks. So all of
the City States are able to instruct on correct practice?

Stilian Ariston: Hey, you can call yourself what you like. The orthodox christians say they
are Hellenes, too. You can call yourself a Hindu and believe in Allah, an Atheist an believe
in Jesus or a Hellene who practices NeoPaganism. I don't want to change your mind, I
want to inform people about you. In Hellenism the term ethnos means a group of people
with common religion, customs, culture and heritage.
I said, there are many ways WITHIN Hellenismos to practice correct in the way of our
fathers, not that you can honour the gods in selfmade or neopagan ways and call it then
Hellenism. You are wrong: the concept of believing is alien to my culture. The core of
our piety is orthopraxy, which defines our cult. The Hellenes used the verb nomizein,
which means recognize. You can't compare an ethnic Religion/Ethnicum like Hellenism
with Christianity, as they are totally different systems. The core of eusebeia/piety was and
still is orthopraxy (correct practice).

Chris Aldridge: But I don't call myself a Hindu who believes in Allah or an Orthodox
Christian who believes in Hellenism. I call myself a Hellenic Polytheist who believes in the
Hellenic Gods. I call myself a follower of Hellenism who believes in Hellenism. Warn
people about me LOL. Exactly what are you warning them about? The fact that I am not a
traditional Hellenist like I have told everyone? The fact that I am a NeoPagan like I have
told everyone already? You know nothing of me or my temple, you've never been to any of
our rituals, festivals or seen me practice, yet you claim to know all about it. I invite you to
come to one of our events sometime, you will see it's not that different from yourself.
Otherwise, stop claiming to know something you don't.
My question for you, if you will answer, is this; all of the City States, while believing in the
same Gods, had different practices, yet you will call all of them Hellenic. So, upon what
basis did the practice in each city vary? What determined the practices of the cities? Was
it region, relevance, or what?

Stilian Ariston: As far as I know, the City-States didn't exist in Plethos' time... Hellenic can
be only something that comes from Greek culture itself. And we can only reconstruct
something, we know many things about. Most things we know regarding Greek Religion is
the religious practice in Classical Athens. But Hellenismos evolved and its latest updates
were compiled by Pletho who renewed Hellenic Religion. You can't look only at classic
Greece and ignore late antiquity and the middle ages.

Chris Aldridge: That's good, because I've never said that I am a follower of modern
Hellenic Reconstructionism, or Hellenismos as you call it. You're still not getting this lol.
Why do you keep insisting that I am claiming to be a follower of your path? I have not
stated such a thing, I am a follower of my own path to the Hellenic Gods based on my own
personal belief and relevance, which is what I HAVE ALWAYS told people.
So I fail to see what your big blow against me is other than to state what I have stated over
and over again to everyone. I do draw heavily from ancient Greece, but I don't call myself
a traditionalist like you. But even though we don't know the practices of Sparta or Corinth
as much as we may do about Athens, the fact remains that they were all Hellenic, so what
makes Athens more or less Hellenic than Sparta?

Stilian Ariston: Your practice is important and not in what you believe in, for Hellenismos
is an orthopraxic religion. You are a polytheist, but not a Hellene. Your practice stems not
from the Hellenic ethnos. I am warning people, that there is a group of people practicing
NeoPaganism but calling it Hellenic Polytheism. I have read many things you wrote
down, I've seen pictures of your rituals, I know that you practice neopagan magic and I'm
reading very carefully your responses - I don't know everything, but enough to forge an
opinion.

Chris Aldridge: Have you taken time to read the FAQ page on our website? It says
specifically that we are NeoPagans and not Reconstructionists. So unless you simply hate
NeoPagans, I don't see what your contempt is.

Stilian Ariston: HELLENISMOS is the NAME Emperor Julian gave to Hellenic Religion.
You stated that you are a Hellenic Polytheist, an ethnic Hellene and that you have Hellenic
blood in your veins. Yes, you follow your OWN path, exactly, but Hellenism is the path of
the Hellenic ethnos, not something created by NeoPagans few months ago. I already
have answered that question: Sparta was as much Hellenic as Athens was. In contrast to
NeoPaganism they were all part of Hellenism. But NeoPaganism, Christianity, Islam,
Hinduism etc. weren't parts of Hellenism and therefore they are not Hellenic, because their
origin is not Hellenic. Every Hellene is a traditionalist, what else could we be? Our religion
is a traditional one, and we've reconstructed something that has been already there, we
did not create something new. And NeoPaganism wasn't there and therefore it can not be
Hellenic.

Chris Aldridge: There are so many things wrong with your last post. Once again you keep
insisting that I have declared us to be followers of the orthopraxic Hellenic religion when
we have not. Second, belief is not important to Hellenism? Alright, so if I did not believe in
the Greek Gods at all, would I still be a Hellenist by your standards just because I
performed a ritual a certain way? You practice the way you do because of what you
believe, so belief is extremely important. Ridiculous.
Also, as stated on our website, we are open to all kinds of Hellenic Polytheists, this
includes NeoPagans AND even Reconstructionists as we do have some
Reconstructionists in our temple. In Tim's book, which you cite, he points out that there are
different kinds of Hellenic practitioners even though they are not all Reconstructionist. So
traditionalism is not the only path which can hold the title of Hellenic. And what's all this
about NeoPagan magic? Personally, magick is not a significant part of my practice, but I
don't tell others they can't practice it of course. Once again, you have assumed you know
all about me when really you know nothing about me.
If I am not Hellenic because I have Hellenic blood, then is an Indian not Indian even
though he or she has Native blood? Blood and religion are different, yes, but I did not mix
the two either. I said I am Hellenic both by blood and theological belief.
Hellenic Polytheists are those that, at the very least, share specific concepts and beliefs
with the ancient Greeks. They will most often be hard polytheists and will share, most
likely, an Emanationist belief of cosmology. While a Hellenic Polytheist may also identify as
a Reconstructionist, the label does not imply that. A Hellenic Polytheist, while having an
understanding of the ancient Greek religion and an influence of it in their personal
practice, may not necessarily be attempting to recreate the religion. - A Beginner's Guide
To Hellenismos, Tim Alexander, page 19.
So, by one of your leader's own words, Hellenic Polytheism is not directly tied to
Reconstructionism.

Stilian Ariston: No. 1. you declared that you are a Hellenic Polytheist which you obviously
are not. 2. Yes, if you honour the gods and recognize them, you are a Hellenic Polytheist.
As I told you before, the concept of believing is alien to my culture. 2. I practice the way I
do, because it is the historical correct way. Because I am a Hellene and I honour reality,
which includes the gods. It may be ridiculous to other ethnicities, but we don't have to
apologize to NeoPagans for our way of life. 3. All kinds of Hellenic Polytheists? By this I
understand only stoic, platonic and other Polytheists, but not NeoPagans, Christians or
Muslims.
Every Hellene is a Reconstructionist, simply because, in contrast to you, we aren't
creating something new, we are simply practicing something that already has been there,
something we have inherited. Only the ancient Greeks weren't reconstructionists. Was it
me who cited Mr. Alexander? I just mentioned him once. Our official and most important
organization, the YSEE, made very clear statements: there is no Hellenism without
orthopraxy. Ask YSEE's secretary Vlassis G. Rassias if you don't believe me. Without
YSEE, Hellenismos wouldn't exist today.
Mr. Aldridge, Nationalism is irrelevant to Hellenism. You didn't read my answers. I already
told you that there is no Hellenic Blood, unless you consider turkish, arvanitic, vlachic
and gothic blood to be hellenic. Blood doesn't matter in Hellenismos, because blood is not
a provider of ethos.

Chris Aldridge: Yes, if you honor the gods and recognize them, you are a Hellenic
Polytheist. Very well, we have agreed that I am a Hellenic Polytheist. Good day.

Stilian Ariston: Mr. Alexander has the right to have his own opinions. He is a Hellenic
Polytheist, not an ethnic Hellene. And by the way, ethnic Religions like Hellenismos have
no leaders, you should know that.

Chris Aldridge: I could just as easily say your side is speaking through their own opinions
and beliefs. I know clergy does not act as leaders, but there are people who do speak for
the community, such as Tim. Even if he is not intending to, he is speaking for your
community by writing books, and since you cited him, I thought I'd quote him. In my
temple, clergy are also not considered representatives, holy people, or dictators. Here's
why I am a Hellenic Polytheist.
Hellenic as defined - of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the ancient Greeks or their
language, culture, thought, etc.
Polytheist as defined - he doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.
Now if we put those two words together, what do we come up with?
I believe in and only worship the Hellenic Gods, and yet I am not a Hellenic Polytheist.
Ridiculous. That's like telling a Kemetic that they are not an Egyptian Polytheist. I don't
think most people in the modern Polytheistic and Pagan community would agree with you
that I am not a Hellenic Polytheist. Anyway, I am tired of arguing this petty nonsense over
titles. The Gods would exist with or without religion. Goodness to you and yours.

Stilian Ariston: YOU cited him, I cited the YSEE. Hellenism(os): of the Greeks, Hellenism
[...]. II. use of a pure Greek style and idiom [...]. Liddell, Scott: A Greek-English Lexicon. p.
536, Oxford University Press, New York 1996. In fact, Hellenismos' real characteristic is
not polytheism, but something some modern scholars call cosmotheism. You don't
practice the religion of the ancient Greeks ergo you are not a Hellenic Polytheist.
Your practice has to be hellenic, not your belief. Hellenic Religion is an orthopraxic
Religion. Nilsson and Veyne stressed that orthopraxy lies in the core of Hellenismos. I
don't belong to the modern polytheistic or pagan community, nor to the christian one. So I
don't care If alien movements agree with me or not. My community and the community of
Hellenismos is the ECER (European Congress of Ethnic Religions). The Gods are not the
topic, but the way we honour them.

Chris Aldridge: You brought up Tim first, as anyone can clearly see if they read the
comment posts. You declared him to be a real Hellenic Polytheist, so I quoted what he had
to say about what constitutes a Hellenic Polytheist. By his definition in his book, I am
Hellenic, period, and Hellenic is not only bound to traditionalism or Reconstructionism.
Although he does not always seem to espouse what he writes, so I don't know if he really
means that. Bottom line, you can't be a Hellenic Polytheist without believing in the Hellenic
Gods.
That may not be how you see it, or even how your group sees it, but that doesn't mean
that a Hellenic Polytheist is not a Hellenic Polytheist. Theism has NOTHING to do with
practice. It has everything to do with the Gods or God you believe in. I am done with this
issue. There will always be people who don't accept one another for any given reason. In
all religions, there are people who tell others they are not doing it right, so Hellenism is no
different in those regards. I am not going to sit here and play the Yes I am, No you're not
game. Have a nice day, sir.

Stilian Ariston: I mentioned him, you cited him. Yes, that's right, YOU quoted him. And I
told you, he has the right to have his own opinions, but it is not the opinion of a single man
that counts, but the collective. You have created your own Hellenic Religion and you
don't even know, that the concept of believing is alien to Hellenism. That's not how I see
it, for the opinions of Individuals are not that much important in a collectivistic culture
(Hellenism). It is the worldview of the ethnos that counts. Polytheism is a term the ancient
Greeks did not use. They used the word Eusebeia (Piety) or Threskeia (Cult) to
describe their religion. Hellenism is not a mere Religion or belief system and you can not
separate Hellenic religion from its culture, because it's an aspect of Hellenic Identity. You
must embrace the whole packet, not only the elements you like. Your practice defines you,
at least in Hellenism. Good night.

Chris Aldridge: And I didn't say that my belief defined Hellenic culture, or that Hellenic
culture was determined by belief. I basically said that it only makes logical sense that
someone who only believes in the Hellenic Gods would be a Hellenic Polytheist.
Oh really? How many Oxen have you slaughtered at your latest ritual? Do you spread
dove's blood on your temple or shrine or altar during the festival of Aphrodite? Do you
practice arranged marriages? How about that? I doubt it. You guys do not embrace all of
Hellenic practice either, but rather you change and adopt to suit your own beliefs and
modern society. You too only accept the elements you like.
Anyone who reads Walter Burkert will see that there are TONS of things in Hellenic culture
that you guys either do not do or have changed. So don't gimme that garbage about being
defined by practice.

Stilian Ariston: You don't have to say it, you do try to define Hellenic Religion. I'm telling
you that I don't believe in the Gods, I nomizo them. You are very good misinformed. There
were people in ancient times (Pythagoreans), who didn't slaughter animals. In late
antiquity, only a few sacrificed animals to the gods. The development of Hellenismos didn't
stop in Hellenistic times. By the way, the Pythagoreans and others have created the
perfect solution to avoid miasma. We only reconstruct elements that can survive in the
modern world. Hellenismos is the Religion of the ancient Greeks, restored and adapted to
the present age to a certain degree, so our tradition can survive. Even Evangelos
Voulgarakis stated, that the YSEE is doing it's best (regarding orthopraxy). And Mr.
Voulgarakis is surely not a friend of Hellenismos. In Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical
time, Walter Burkert deals with Greek Religion in the ARCHAIC and CLASSICAL time. So
yes, your practice defines what you are. Pletho, Marullus etc. were Hellenes too, you
know. Well, you have no Idea about Hellenism. But I didn't expect something else.

Chris Aldridge: You only reconstruct elements that can survive in the modern World?
Great, so you don't reconstruct all of ancient practice, yet you claim such a fault is the
basis for telling someone else they are not Hellenic. You can't claim ancient practice is the
basis for calling yourself Hellenic and then only construct the parts you like, not to mention
faulting others for not following all of ancient tradition.

Stilian Ariston: We don't reconstruct random ancient elements, but only elements that
can exist today. For example: we don't have sanctuaries. Contemporary active hellenic
temples do not exist in our time, so we had have to reconstruct orthopraxy as good as we
possibly can, even if that means that we can not practice our religion within sanctuaries
and instead chose mobile altars or outdoor shrines in natural areas. So we make sure, that
the altars are as authentic as possible. But our culture still is collectivistic, though we live in
a modern world. Other ancient practices can't be reconstructed (the mysteries, theurgy
etc.) and are gone forever. As I told you before: We have reconstructed something that has
been already there up to a certain point, so Hellenism can be revitalized. We don't
incorporate new things or new style statues in our practice.
The deciding factor has always been feasibility or survivability and not our PERSONAL
likes or dislikes, for the likes of an individual count not that much in a collectivistic culture.
We practice every traditional, ancient Hellenic practice, we can practice (given that, there
are enough reliable ancient sources). We practice in the way of our fathers - the
orthopraxy hasn't change, we just adjusted it to our financial and other capacities. We
don't have New-Age-Gaia Statues standing on our altars, we don't show up in rituals
wearing black etc. There are things that can be done, and we are reconstructing them in
the best way we can, because we are accountable to history for the correctness of our
orthopraxy. Otherwise, we could not be taken seriously, which means that people won't
support our movement in Greece. But we need support in order to get recognized, so we
give our best, because this is what Tradition is all about. Either you practice an ethnic
religion the best way you can or you create something new, but please don't call it then
hellenic.

Chris Aldridge: Fine, you don't reconstruct everything from ancient times, that's my point.
You only bring forth the things which suit you in your times and places. Everyone does
that. No one practices completely in accordance with history. It's not possible. I told you
previously, I have quite a load of ancient practice in my path though.
I'd rather be like Socrates, who was also accused of not being properly Hellenic, and like
him, I know that I don't know anything for certain, and I find ground in my own beliefs. I will
call myself Hellenic because that's what I am. End of story. You are also wrong that there
are no modern Hellenic temples. There's one in Thessaloniki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hellen_temple_in_Thessaloniki,_Greece.png
Secondly, if you don't believe in building temples, you are hardly reconstructing
traditional practices. There were scores of temples all over ancient Greece.
I don't practice in black either, I practice in all white. In fact, I don't remember ever
practicing in black, certainly not when I was dedicated to Hellenic Polytheism anyway. As
far as the New Age Gaea statue, even though I no longer have that and prefer more
classical depictions, I don't see a problem with it. Gaea is the living Earth, which is what
that statue represented. Besides, you will be very hard pressed to find a classical statue of
Gaea today, so like you said, we use what is possible to be used at this time. It's alright for
you to only use what's possible for you, but it's not alright for me to. That's balanced.

Stilian Ariston: I think my statement regarding reconstruct everything was very clear. It
is not a matter of personal likes or dislikes. We didn't reconstruct everything, but
everything we have reconstructed is ancient greek. We adjusted Hellenismos to the
present age, we didn't modernize our Tradition, for we understand our Tradition as an
alternative to christianity, its religious products (Occultism, NeoPaganism, New age etc.)
and to the western world in general.
Socrates was murdered because of political reasons. And he never stated I know, that I
know nothing, Arkesilaos did. He just denied to be wise. The Temple in Thessaloniki
belongs to the Epsilon-Followers. Epsilon is a modern greek phenomenon and part of the
so-called Helleno- or Archaeocentrism (the New age-movement of modern Greece).
The architecture of the Temple is hardly hellenic. Just google greek temples and you
will see what I mean. Yes, you are a Hellenic Polytheist with hellenic Blood. And you are
Superman, Wolverine and Spiderman. Of course you are.
Secondly, if you don't believe in building temples, you are hardly reconstructing
traditional practices. There were scores of temples all over ancient Greece.
Excuse me, we Hellenes don't believe, whether in Gods nor in building temples. It is not
part of our language or culture. We want to build temples, but we have no money to buy a
necessary property yet. Me, You, I, you don't understand that Hellenic Religion is not
a personal thing, because you are not interested to learn about Hellenism, I get it.
I think that you and I have nothing in common and that the Greek Gods of
NeoPaganism are not the Gods of the Greeks. Hellenism is tradition, always has been.
There are no denominations within today's Hellenism, unless you prefer to call stoicism
or platonism a denomination. You have created your own stuff, defined an other religion
and presented your new cult as being part of an ethnic religion. That's why we reject
NeoPaganism, and that's why the Lakota declared war against you, but you will never
get it, because you don't want to. I must apologize to you, now I begin to realise that you
don't try to deceive others, you actually believe that you are a Hellenic Polytheist. If a
neopagan can be a Hellenic Polytheist, than Muslims and Christians can be Hellenic
Polytheists too, right? They just have to believe only in the Greek gods, regardless of
whether they PRACTICE Hellenism or honour the Gods in a christian, neopagan or
jewish way. It is time for you to read some books of Martin Nilssons or Paul Veyne. You are
incredible misinformed.