Exited, Episode Two: Leaving college with lots of benefits — but no degree

Veronica Volk, producer

Hey, guys, this is Veronica Volk, producer of Exited. Just a quick note before we get started: This is the
second episode of our series — in the first, we follow Nate, a 17-year-old student, as he navigates high
school and some obstacles between him and a diploma. If you haven't heard it yet, go back now and
listen. OK, here's Episode Two.

Background, teacher and kids singing:

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round....

Karen Shakerdge, reporter

At a day care, a bunch of 3- and 4-year-olds have lined up their mini chairs to make a pretend bus. And
off they go to a Broadway show.

Group:
(Singing) The babies on the bus go wah wah wah, wah wah wah, wah wah wah ...

Karen Shakerdge
Maggie McCrumb is sitting in the front row. She’s 20 years old. She’s been helping the kids on and off
the make-believe bus, making sure they have what they need for the journey. And now, she’s launching
into a duet.

Maggie and child

(Singing) A whole new world … a dazzling place I never knew ...

Karen Shakerdge
In the corner of the classroom, a woman is watching Maggie. Observing her.

ALLISON KNAGE
And so basically what I’m doing here today is I do an assessment for Maggie and to see how she
interacts with the children, how she takes initiative and, you know, completes tests on her own and just,
you know, where she’s at vocationally.

Karen Shakerdge
This is Allison Knage. She’s a vocational evaluator for an organization called Job Path.

Allison Knage
Through the assessment, you can gauge how ready the person is and if they really like the area they are
working in. You can kind of see their motivation and their drive to really want to get a job in the
community.

Karen Shakerdge
“In the community” is basically this way of saying “out in the world, with everyone else.”
Here’s Maggie:
Maggie McCrumb
Eventually, I want to do a part-time job here. Well, I don’t know where I would like to do it, but I’m
gonna see if I can get an application for here, eventually, maybe.

Karen Shakerdge
How do you think it’s going so far?

Maggie McCrumb
Um, at first, I was kind of nervous because I thought kids would be pointing out stuff, and then I was like,
‘Oh, they're OK, they’re good, actually.’ Kids are really cute.

Karen Shakerdge
When you say pointing out stuff, what do you mean?

Maggie McCrumb
Like, ‘Oh, you’re … you look different’ or something. But because I was bullied when I was younger. I was
bullied when I was in high school and just to say I almost got into a fistfight with a girl, but I'm glad I
didn't. And then I went to school for kids with disabilities, and I'm so glad I went there —I just wish I
could've been there longer.

Karen Shakerdge
Why are you so glad that you went there? What was it like?

Maggie McCrumb
Um, I felt like myself and I felt like, I felt like I belonged there.
Because, you know, if you're a kid like me who has disabilities, you feel like, oh, people judge you just
because you have a disability — ‘oh, you're different!’

(MUSIC)

Karen Shakerdge
I’m Karen Shakerdge. I’m a health reporter with WXXI in Rochester, New York. And this is Exited, a
podcast about growing up and trying to find a place where you belong when you’ve been told your
whole life that you’re different.
The unemployment rate for young adults with disabilities is more than double what it is for young adults
without disabilities. And that’s not because people with disabilities don’t aspire to work, of course.
There are a lot of reasons why someone might not find employment. It could be a lack of a diploma,
college degree or training. But it could also be the lack of an opportunity to develop social skills.
In this episode, we’re going to talk about one thing that is helping. College experiences.
I’ve been following three people …

Pat …

Patrick Staley
I am Patrick Staley, and I’m 21 years old because I just turned 21 this past weekend.

Karen Shakerdge
Jesse …
Jesse Claud
My name is Jesse Robert Claud. I’m 20 years old, a LIVES college student.

Karen Shakerdge
And Maggie.

Maggie McCrumb
I’m Mary James McCrumb, and I love a band that used to be famous, and they were called IM5.

Karen Shakerdge
As they leave their college programs for the real world.

(MUSIC)

Christine Walker
OK, so remember, what’s important? Make sure everything looks the same. So, for example, if this is
written out …

Karen Shakerdge
When I first met Maggie — who has autism — she was enrolled in a program for students with
disabilities at the University of Rochester. It’s called TOUR for short. TOUR is part work experience, part
academic and part general life skills, like managing money. Today, she’s looking for mistakes in sample
resumes.

Maggie McCrumb
Shouldn’t there be a comma?

Christine Walker
Mm-hmm. See, you got it …

Karen Shakerdge
I went to visit her just a few weeks before she was wrapping up.

Maggie McCrumb
I’m happy and sad at the same time because I’m gonna miss my friends I made here — and that means
that I’ve worked up the courage and stuff to get a real job and, um, like before I said we found out that
I’m gonna have a supported job coach or something. With my job in the future, so that’s pretty cool.

Karen Shakerdge
The number of these college experience programs is growing — by a lot. But it’s still a small amount
compared to the number of higher ed institutions across the country.

(Students talk in the background)

Karen Shakerdge
Students pack up their stuff to leave for the day.
Bye Maggie — see ya.

And I start to talk with Christine Walker, her teacher.

Christine Walker
Our students are a part of this campus — they don’t really “stand out.” You know, they’re just a part of
the U of R, which I think a lot of the students that come here haven’t always had that in their high school
experiences. So this is the first time that they’re kind of feeling accepted.

Karen Shakerdge
Maggie did three internships during her year at TOUR.

Christine Walker
Maggie has grown tremendously in her work environment. She always had said that day care was
something that she was really interested – preschool-type stuff — and we were a little hesitant because
some of the … the maturity level and the social piece, we were a little hesitant just because you’re
working with little guys and, you know, you’re shaping them to who they are, whatever, and she’s really
surprised us. She’s done very, very well there.

(MUSIC)

Jean McCrumb
Maggie can get in the way of herself, too.

Karen Shakerdge
This is Jean McCrumb, Maggie’s mother.

Jean McCrumb
She allows her mind to get all tangled up. She can’t relax. She doesn’t have a way of understanding how
to do that herself, how to kind of calm herself down. But if she calms down, she can do it.

Karen Shakerdge
These college programs can translate into a social life, more education, just overall personal growth —
but also … jobs. And that’s pretty significant, considering almost no students leave these programs with
any kind of degree or certificate that anyone has heard of.

Jean McCrumb
There's nothing tangible to show for what they’ve done, and so it’s more experiential, really. It’s really
good for them, and it’s valuable. It’s valuable, but they don’t have a way to put that on paper to show
that it’s valuable.

Karen Shakerdge
When Maggie finished at TOUR, she tried to figure out what to do next. A state agency called ACCES- VR
suggested she take some more classes at a local continuing education center.

Maggie McCrumb
To get a certificate and then work with children.
Karen Shakerdge
But that involves some steps.

Maggie McCrumb
Yeah, I have to take a test first, to see if I can get in.

(MUSIC)

Karen Shakerdge
When I first met Patrick Staley, he was wrapping up a similar program to Maggie.

(Whistle blowing in background, crowd applauding)

Karen Shakerdge
I met him at a high school in Gates, a suburb of Rochester. He was in the middle of assisting the coach
during a basketball game.

Karen Shakerdge
Are you busy over there? Can you talk for a couple of minutes?

Pat Staley
Yes, we can still talk.

Karen Shakerdge
We sit down on a bench outside the gym. And in about three seconds, it becomes very clear: Pat is for
sports, and sports are for Pat.

Pat Staley
Like soccer, baseball, football, wrestling, track and field — and then basketball.

Karen Shakerdge
We're sitting in Pat's former high school. He doesn't go here anymore; he's 21 now. But his school
district has continued to pay for his education five miles down the road at Roberts Wesleyan College.
That’s because the district is responsible for students with disabilities until they turn 21 or get a
diploma, whichever happens first.
Pat says the program at Roberts was not always what he planned to do after high school.

Pat Staley
You know, I was still thinking of like serving our country in the Navy.

Karen Shakerdge
Have you looked into that, joining the Navy?

Pat Staley
Oh yeah, I sure have, since way back when I was still in high school.

Karen Shakerdge
And what happened to that idea?
Pat Staley
Well, the reason why I could not get into the Navy is just because of my disability. So, that's the reason
why I just had to, like, first start college.

Karen Shakerdge
Do you have kind of an idea of what you’d like to do in the long term?

Pat Staley
You know, I do actually want to become like an athletic coach and personal fitness trainer. And then I
was also still thinking of like right after when I retire from coaching or teaching, I was also still thinking
of like doing more of like athletic directing or something like that.

Karen Shakerdge
Pat’s program at Roberts is called BELL for short. In the BELL program, Pat walked around campus and
went to class, but he didn’t take classes for credit and wasn’t working on a degree.
And that’s the part that struck me as a little odd. Everyone I spoke to at these transition programs
basically said, in one way or another, they’re a part of the campus — but they’re not ‘students students’
here.
That ‘student student’ status a lot of the time comes down to whether someone is on their way to
getting a degree — also known as matriculation.
But matriculation can be out of reach for students with disabilities. To start, for example, Pat doesn’t
have a high school diploma.
Here’s his mom, Deirdre Staley:

Deirdre Staley
He is a student who was determined in fifth grade to be alternatively assessed by New York state, and
that meant he didn't take state tests after that point.

Karen Shakerdge
That means, at 11 years old, Pat — who has autism — was excused from taking tests. The very tests he
would’ve needed to take to potentially get a diploma.
These college-based programs are a way for students like Pat, who might not have the traditional
credentials, to still experience college. But less than 6 percent of higher ed institutions in the country
have options for students with intellectual or developmental disabilities.
So I wanted to know: If they benefit young people with disabilities so much, why aren’t there more of
them?
Most of the people I asked couldn't — or wouldn't — answer that question. So naturally, I became a
little obsessed. Which is why I was still talking to people when I was super past my deadline — even if I
was on a high-speed train in the middle of nowhere with basically no reception.

Karen Shakerdge, speaking on phone

Hey, Cate?

Cate Weir
Oh good, I can hear you this time.

Karen Shakerdge
So quick heads up: My conversation with Cate Weir is a little hard to make out. She’s the project director
for Think College — they’re a national center that helps develop higher ed opportunities for students
with intellectual disabilities.
I asked Cate why there aren’t more of these programs.

Cate Weir
This is such an incredibly challenging movement because colleges are by design exclusive environments.
They’re designed to be exclusionary — they’re proudly exclusionary, you know? They, they -- colleges will
brag about, ‘We only have a 42 percent acceptance rate.’

Karen Shakerdge
I had been so focused on what these programs were doing for Maggie and Patrick that I forgot about
step one of getting to college. You’ve got to prove that you’re worthy.

Cate Weir
We have the ways in which you prove that you belong there. Those are long-held practices: SAT scores,
writing an essay, getting good grades in high school — that’s the way you prove that you belong in
college. And those people who are excellent in a lot of ways — but not in those ways — get excluded.

Karen Shakerdge
And if or when universities get past that — that selectiveness mentality — Cate says she often hears a
next set of hurdles.

Cate Weir
And here’s what you might hear at that level: ‘Umm, what happens to our graduation and retention
rate?’ Those are rates that are very, very under scrutiny at almost every institution of higher ed now.
People will have a concern about, ‘What will people think of our university if they hear that we’re
educating students with intellectual disabilities?’

Karen Shakerdge
She acknowledges students with disabilities do need supports.

Cate Weir
The reality is that these students have developmental disabilities, so you know, it’s very possible for as
they develop and grow, they’re going to learn more slowly than other people— not necessarily they’re
not going to learn at all.

Karen Shakerdge
Pat actually ended up having a pretty unique experience. By most accounts, come the end of his
transition program at Roberts Wesleyan, he’d be done.
But Pat wanted to take more classes. And he and his family have found a way to do that.
Here’s Deirdre, his mom, again:

Deirdre Staley
Well, we have somehow been able to skirt the application process and that whole matriculation issue.

Karen Shakerdge
Roberts Wesleyan helped to put together a plan for Pat to take more courses.
Here’s Kym Woodard; she’s the director of the BELL program.

Kym Woodard
Couple of students have done that. It’s an interesting model of someone coming back and independently
pursuing a goal like that not under the umbrella of BELL. But because he feels so confident and had had
such a good especially academic experience, he can move forward with that. So he’s ready for the next
step.

Karen Shakerdge
I’ve heard so many people talk about the lack of opportunities for students with disabilities in higher ed.
I asked Kym to explain to me how Pat will be able to continue on, taking classes. She said that through
his time on campus, as a BELL student, he showed he could do it.

Kym Woodard
I think that if it were something where Patrick was coming in cold, not having two years here on campus,
it would be much more difficult to engage as a non-matriculated student. But we could say, ‘This is
Patrick’s transcript, this is his record of success.’ It’s something that gives support to the idea of him
continuing as a non-matriculated student.

Karen Shakerdge
When she said that, I wondered if there were rules about whether someone needs a diploma or a GED
or something just to sit inside a college classroom and earn credit.

Kym Woodard
I think that individuals and colleges are trying to figure that out, it’s new ground.

Karen Shakerdge
Why is it new ground?

Kym Woodard
I guess I said that because I feel like even transition programs on college campuses for, you know, to get
certificate — that is even new ground in terms of did students ever think that they would be on a college
campus, having an academic experience?

(MUSIC)

Karen Shakerdge
Today, there are 10 times as many programs as there were about a decade ago. They’re growing, in
part, because of money. The federal education department gave out dozens of grants to schools and
basically said: Make options for students with intellectual disabilities.

Meg Grigal
We keep reinventing and pushing the envelope of what high expectations means.
Karen Shakerdge
This is Meg Grigal, a co-director of that national center, Think College.

Meg Grigal
So in the ’80s and ’90s, when we first started talking about including students in elementary school and
providing access to learning experiences and working experiences, we keep saying, ‘Oh, well, maybe they
can do this,’ and then we create some structures and support so that people can get jobs in the
community or live in the community. And then we find out, oh yes, we were right.

Karen Shakerdge
She points out that higher ed institutions do accommodate students with mental health conditions and
physical disabilities.

Meg Grigal
So, it’s not unheard of for us to respond to the unique learning needs in a higher ed environment, but for
some reason, when we’re talking about people with intellectual disabilities, often the first thing people
ask is, ‘Well, what do they need to learn?’

Karen Shakerdge
A lot, it turns out.

(MUSIC)

Karen Shakerdge
I first met Jesse Claud at SUNY Geneseo, a university in a rural part of western New York. When I visited,
his class was doing a lesson on what to know about signing leases.

Teacher, speaking to class

If you’re writing a contract, what do you want the contract to say? To protect you or me?

Karen Shakerdge
Jesse is sitting in the back corner of the classroom. He’s tall — 6-foot-4 — and has short, bright orange
hair.

Teacher
It’s not going to be an item. What would you want? So, Jesse, Jesse, what did you say?

Jesse Claud
Pay on time.

Teacher
Pay on time! That’s something that’s important in the contract, right?

Karen Shakerdge
The ironic part here is that Jesse and his classmates haven't had anything like this kind of experience yet
because they can’t live on campus. They’re technically enrolled in a specific program for students with
disabilities at the university. It’s called LIVES for short.
His father, Dwayne Claud, says while Jesse has been at LIVES, he’s grown academically. But also socially.

Dwayne Claud
To the point now where he’s trying to get people to come do things outside of school, which would never
happen before … come home and want to talk about his day or strike up conversations, and it’s just been
huge amounts of change and seems like there’s something new every day.

Karen Shakerdge
Can you tell me your full name and just like a line or two about yourself? Just a little, little intro?

Jesse Claud
Sure. My name is Jesse Robert Claud. I’m 20 years old, a LIVES college student. And I am, I am autistic. I
have autism. Yep. And I’m proud of it. Yep.

Karen Shakerdge
Jesse tells me about the classes he’s taking, like his writing seminar …

Jesse Claud
I had to write a paper on transhumanism, which is how humans would evolve through technology or
biology. And genetics.

Karen Shakerdge
Children’s literature …

Jesse Claud
And I learned how to write stories.

Karen Shakerdge
And one called “UFOs and Conspiracies.”

Jesse Claud
Yeah, that’s pretty much what it was about, UFOs and conspiracies.

Karen Shakerdge
And three days a week, he goes to work at the dining hall for job training.

Jesse Claud
I do food prep. Sometimes I put granola in cups, on trays. Or sometimes I do food labels. Sometimes I
peel carrots and cut ’em.

Karen Shakerdge
At the time, Jesse was just a few months away from wrapping up the LIVES program and turning 21.

Dwayne Claud
We go through all these years throughout school and there’s all sorts of supports put in place. Once they
turn 21, all of that disappears, and that is really what becomes scary.

Karen Shakerdge
The way almost every parent I’ve interviewed talks about support after 21 is like there isn’t any. Once
Jesse turns 21, the school district will no longer pay for his supports. Anything from education to
transportation.

Dwayne Claud
I think for the most part, things are going to kind of seem normal, but in a couple weeks, Jesse graduates
so … (voice breaks) … so that becomes a … becomes a transition, a transition into his next phase of life.

Karen Shakerdge
For his next phase of life, Jesse and his family have to figure out all these new things. How to get a job,
interact with the people, or even just get to work. And they won’t have the school district to help them.
They’ll need to get services through the state.
Once Jesse finishes his college experience, he’ll look to that state agency, ACCES-VR, for help with
employment. I asked them for an interview, but they declined.
Navigating all this stuff can be complicated on a technical level but can also be really emotional.

Dwayne Claud
Part of you also starts to think about your own mortality — so you’re trying to prepare them for when
you’re not going to be around to make sure that they’re still going to be OK.

(MUSIC)

Karen Shakerdge
After Jesse finished the LIVES program, he got a part-time, seasonal job at a local diner. But that ended.

Jesse Claud
I’m still applying for another job for the fall.

Karen Shakerdge
ACCES-VR referred him to a local agency for help with job placement.

Jesse Claud
Other than that, I was also putting in some job applications. I haven’t got any response yet. So we’re still
looking for another job.

(MUSIC)

Karen Shakerdge
And remember Maggie, the young woman who wants to work with kids?

Maggie McCrumb
Because they’re easier to work with, and they’re not judgmental like teenagers.

Karen Shakerdge
She passed that entrance test.

Maggie McCrumb
To get a certificate and then work with children.

Karen Shakerdge
Patrick is busy taking two classes at Roberts Wesleyan College. He hopes to get a coaching certificate.

Patrick Staley
Just like an actual college student.

(MUSIC)

****

Credits

To see photos and hear more episodes of Exited, go to our website: ExitedPodcast.org.

I’m Karen Shakerdge.

Exited is produced by Veronica Volk. Denise Young is our executive editor. Juan Vazquez is our digital
producer. Malinda Ruit is our intern. Special thanks to Andrew Croucher.

Elissa Orlando is the senior vice president of television and news. Our news director is Randy Gorbman.

Next time on Exited …

Her safety is my most important need.

Sheltered workshops are a place where people with disabilities go to work — kind of. And they’re being
phased out.

I want to stay here as long as I can. I’m not sure how long, but …

Well, she has to start over again, and that’s just terrifying to her.

Exited is a production of the Inclusion Desk at WXXI. The Inclusion Desk is funded in part by the Golisano
Foundation, supporting Move to Include programming on WXXI, and working toward a more inclusive
community.

This program is a production of WXXI Public Broadcasting, Rochester, New York.