Nada Yoga Discussion From Dharma Wheel

Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen
by Vasana » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:19 am

In the Surangama Sutra, Avalokiteśvara says that he attained enlightenment through
concentration on the subtle inner sound. Mañjuśrī then elaborates and The Buddha then praises
Avalokiteśvara and the effectiveness of the method in this current age.
In the Śūraṅgama Sūtra , Mañjuśrī says;
"I now submit to the World Honoured One That all Buddhas in this world appear
To teach the most appropriate method Which consists in using pervasive sound.
The state of Samadhi can be Realized by means of hearing.
Thus was Avalokiteśvara freed from suffering.
Hail to the Regarder of sound Who, during aeons countless as Ganges' sand,
Entered as many Buddha lands to win The power and comfort of his independence,
And bestow fearlessness upon all living beings.
O you who (have achieved) the sound profound,
The seer of sound, of sound the purifier,
Who, unfailing as the sound of ocean tides,

saves all beings in the world make them secure,
ensure their liberation and attainment of eternity.
Reverently I declare to the Tathagata what Avalokitesvara said:
When one dwells in quietude, Rolls of drums from ten directions Simultaneously are heard,
So hearing is complete and perfect, The eyes cannot pierce a screen, But neither can mouth nor
nose,
Body only feels when it is touched. Mind's thoughts are confused and unconnected,
(But) voice whether near or far, at all times can be heard.
The five other organs are not perfect, But hearing really is pervasive.
The presence or absence of sound and voice Is registered by ear as 'is' or 'is not'.
Absence of sound means nothing heard, Not hearing devoid of nature.

Absence of sound is not the end of hearing, And sound when present is not its beginning.
The faculty of hearing, beyond creation And annihilation, truly is permanent
Even when isolated thoughts in a dream arise,
Though the thinking process stops, hearing does not end,
For the faculty of heating is beyond All thought, beyond both mind and body.
In this Saha world Teaching is by voice.

Living beings who cognize not hearing's nature, Follow sound to continue transmigrating.
Though Ananda memorized all that he had Heard, he could not avoid perverted thoughts.
This is to fall into samsara by clinging to sound; Whilst reality is won against the worldly stream.
Listen, Ananda, listen closely,
In the name of Buddha I proclaim The Vajra King of Enlightenment,
The inconceivable understanding that illusions Are unreal,
the true Samadhi that begets all Buddhas.
You may hear of esoteric methods From Buddhas countless as the dust,
But if you cannot eradicate Desire, to hear much causes errors.
To hear your very Self, why not turn backward
That faculty employed to hear Buddha's words,
Hearing is not of itself, But owes its name to sound.

Freed from sound by turning hearing backwards,
What do you call that which is disengaged
When one sense organ has to its source returned,
All the six senses thereby are liberated.
Seeing and hearing are like optical illusions, Just as all three worlds resemble flowers in the sky.
With hearing disengaged, the illusory organ vanishes;
With objects eradicated, perfectly pure is Bodhi In utter purity, the bright light pervades all,
With its shining stillness enfolding the great void.
All worldly things, when closely looked at, Are but illusions seen in dreams.
Dream-like was the Matatigi maiden: How could she keep your body with her?
Like a clever showman Presenting a puppet play,
Though movements are many, There is but one controller.
When that control is stopped, Figures show no nature.
Likewise are the six organs, Derived from one alaya Which divides into six unions.
If one of these returns to source, All six functions are ended.
With all infection ended, Bodhi is then realized.
Any defiling remnant requires further study, Whereas full enlightenment is the Tathagata.
Ananda and all you who listen here,
Should inward turn your faculty
The Enlightened and World Honoured One Has asked about the best expedients
For those in the Dharma ending age
Who wish from samsara to escape In their search for Nirvana's heart.
It is best to contemplate on worldly sound:
All other methods are expedients Used by Buddha in particular cases To keep disciples from
occasional trouble.
They are not good for indiscriminate practice By men of different types.
I salute the Tathagata Store Which is beyond the worldly stream.
Blessed be coming generations So that they have (abiding) faith In this easy expedient .
'Tis good for teaching ‚Ananda

And those of the Dharma ending age
Who should use the hearing organ
Which surpasses all others
And with the True Mind accords."
Translated by Upasaka Lu K'uan Yu. (Charles Luk) and taken from http://www.buddhanet.net/
pdf_file/surangama.pdf
I particularly like these gathas ,
"Hearing is not of itself, But owes its name to sound.'
'Absence of sound means nothing heard, Not hearing devoid of nature.

Absence of sound is not the end of hearing, And sound when present is not its beginning.
The faculty of hearing, beyond creation And annihilation, truly is permanent '
Would continuous or unceasing be a better choice of word than permanent?
***
From the Nada yoga wiki page;

Jamgon Kongtrul (1813–1899) provides an important paradigm of salience for the esoteric
Dzogchen doctrine of "sound, light and rays" (Wylie: sgra 'od zer gsum) and the 'mantra' of the
Mantrayana tradition in particular, Kongtrul, et al. (2005: p. 431) identifies the “primordial
sound” (nāda) and its semantic field:
The primordial indestructible great vital essence (gdod ma'i mi shigs pa'i thig le chen po), which
is the root or ground of all of cyclic life [samsara] and perfect peace [nirvana], is known as
primordial (gdod ma) because it has no beginning or end; as indestructible (mi shigs pa) because
it is indivisible; as vital essence (thig le) because it pervades the various appearances; and as
great (chen po) because there is nothing that it does not encompass. There are countless
synonyms for the primordial indestructible great vital essence, such as "great seal" (phyag rgya
chen po, mahāmudrā), "great bliss" (bde ba chen po, mahāsukha), "primordial sound" (nāda),
"all-pervading vajra of space" (mkha' khyab nam mkha'i rdo rje), "ordinary awareness" (tha mal
shes pa), "pristine awareness channel" (ye shes kyi rtsa), "pristine awareness wind" (ye she kyi
rlung), "invincible ham" (gzhom med kyi ham), "invincible vital essence" (gzhom med kyi thig
le), "essence of enlightenment" (sugatagarbha), and "transcendent wisdom" (she rab phar phyin,
prajnā-pāramitā)
This quotation comes from the famed Sheja Dzö or 'The Treasury of Knowledge' (Tibetan: ཤེས་%་
མཛ(ད, Wylie: shes bya mdzod)[3] a voluminous work, encyclopedic in breadth, by Jamgon
Kongtrul.
***
The Mahasiddha Vinapa (The Musician) achieved mahamudra through contemplation of the
unborn, unstruck sound:
With perseverance and devotion
I mastered the vina's errant chords;

but then practicing the unborn, unstruck sound
I, Vinapa, lost my self.
***
From the wiki on the various meanings of the Gankyil.
"The triunic continuua of the esoteric Dzogchen doctrine of 'sound, light and rays' (Wylie: sgra
'od zer gsum) is held within the energetic signature of the Gankyil. The doctrine of 'Sound, light
and rays' is intimately connected with the Dzogchen teaching of the 'three aspects of the
manifestation of energy'. Though thoroughly interpenetrating and nonlocalised, 'sound' may be
understood to reside at the heart, the 'mind'-wheel; 'light' at the throat, the 'voice'-wheel; and
'rays' at the head, the 'body'-wheel. Some Dzogchen lineages for various purposes, locate 'rays' at
the Ah-wheel (for Five Pure Lights pranayama) and 'light' at the Aum-wheel (for rainbow body),
and there are other enumerations."
***
Feel free to post more resources,quotes,practice-methods and discussions related to Nada.

"If you think that buddhas and sentient beings are indivisible, you should honor and serve sentient beings
to the same degree as you would the buddhas. Do you do that?" ~ Shri Singha
Vasana

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Re: Nāda ~ Sound as contemplation ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzog
by Vasana » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:30 am
Although the original discourses relating to the practice of concentrating on sound & Nada
appear to be from Yogic manuals, the practice of using sound and hearing as a support for
concentration and meditation can be applied, whether or not you engage with additional yogic
practices as previously mentioned In the Śūraṅgama Sūtra by Mañjuśrī.
---
The following are excerpts From the Hatha-Yoga pradipika, a sanskrit manual on Hatha-Yoga,
written by Svāmi Svātmārāma, a disciple of Swami Gorakhnath. Hatha-yoga shares many of it's
most essential components with the Tibetan system of Yantra-Yoga , as eventually bought to
Tibet by Padmasambhava and recorded by Vairocana under the title of Nyida Khajor,The
Unification of the Sun and the Moon.This system was later introduced to the west by Chögyal
Namkhai Norbu.
64. I will describe now the practice of anahata nada, as propounded by Goraksa Natha, for the
benefit of those who are unable to understand the principles of knowledge -- a method, which is
liked by the ignorant also.
69. When the Brahma granthi (subtle energetic knot in the heart) is pierced through by
Pranayama, then a sort of happiness is experienced in the vacuum of the heart, and the anahat
sounds, like various tinkling sounds of ornaments, are heard in the body
89. Just as a bee, drinking sweet juice, does not care for the smell of the flower; so the mind,
absorbed in the nada, does not desire the objects of enjoyment.
90. The mind, like an elephant habituated to wander in the garden of enjoyments, is capable of
being controlled by the sharp goad of anahata nada.
91. The mind, captivated in the snare of nada, gives up all its activity; and, like a bird with
clipped wings, becomes calm at once.
92. Those desirous of the kingdom of Yoga, should take up the practice of hearing the anahata
nada, with mind collected and free from all cares.
93. Nada is the snare for catching the mind; and, when it is caught like a deer, it can be killed
also like it.
94. Nada is the bolt of the stable door for the horse (the minds of the Yogis). A Yogi should
determine to practice constantly in the hearing of the nada sounds.
95. Mind gets the properties of calcined mercury. When deprived of its unsteadiness it is
calcined, combined with the sulphur of nada, and then it roams like it in the supportless akasa
[space/aether.]
96. The mind is like a serpent, forgetting all its unsteadiness by hearing the nada, it does not run
away anywhere.
97. The fire, catching firewood, is extinguished along with it (after burning it up); and so the
mind also, working with the nada, becomes latent along with it.
98. The antahkarana (mind), like a deer, becomes absorbed and motionless on hearing the sound
of bells, etc.; and then it is very easy for an expert archer to kill it.
99. The knowable interpenetrates the anahata sound when it is heard, and the mind
interpenetrates the knowable.
100. So long as the sounds continue, there is the idea of akasa. When they disappear, then it is
called Para Brahma, Paramatmana.
101. Whatever is heard in the form of nada, is the sakti (power). That which is formless, the final
state of the Tatwas, is the Parameswara.
104. All the accumulations of sins/karma are destroyed by practicing always with the nada; and
the mind and the airs do certainly become latent in the colorless (Paramatmana).
N.B. There are some words and terms which you won't found used in Buddhist texts and
commentaries, so discernment is needed when knowing which terms and words have a relevant
counterpart found in Buddhist glossaries.
Vasana

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Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen
by Saoshun » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:40 am
You are on the the Way Vasana, glad to see someone with insight here.
The easiest thing to grasp subtle sound is by chanting "OM" proper way, if you do it proper
where they will be subtle sounds appear like the sun and it's light around which can be heard or
kinda sensed. By Nada yoga it's easy to achieve great diamond samadhi and it's wonderful.
Kuan Yin’s Method of Hearing Sound …
Along with life there is usually hearing, seeing, and knowing. Seeing is a type of knowing that
relies on the eyes, something we dealt with last time. Once you see something you also know. “I
see” means “I understand this,” so seeing is also a form of knowing.
For seeing you need several karmic conditions. One of them is light. Without light, you cannot
see anything. Color is a form phenomenon, an appearance phenomenon. Night time is dark color,
day time is bright color. We’re always surrounded by light/color no matter what, which we went
over last time. Pitch blackness is a color and is therefore light, not the “absence of light.” It’s just
a different colored light that awareness can know.
Some beings like dark light and some like bright light. Whether they like one or the other is a
function of their karma, so in the universe don’t think bright is better than dark. If you said so, a
bunch of animals would certainly disagree with you. In any case, light is one of the conditions
for seeing. You must see something and what you see is light that has form. Forms and
appearances are light.
The second item is hearing. Hearing does not need light as a precondition to take place. Also,
when you hear something it is another kind of knowing. Its very existence is also empty just as
we found with light, colors, energy and appearances last time. You cannot grab onto hearing or
sounds. Sounds don’t stay, they are ungraspable, they are illusions like a dream — EMPTY
rather than solid and real because they never stay unchanged.
In the Surangama Sutra, it’s said that when we use our eyes and see that the boundary of seeing
or vision is limited — we only see about 30% of what’s around us. We have to turn our head left
and right and backwards to see everything, so we’re only seeing about 30% unless we do that.
For HEARING, however, unlike seeing the proportion of efficiency is more like 100%. Doesn’t
matter where the sound comes from, you can hear it. There’s no natural blockage or limit. Sound
therefore is a more efficient method for cultivation.
The Buddha Manjushri said in this world there is a clear and clean teaching of sound. Sound and
chi are closely related. The reason we hear is because of chi — chi (air) can transmit sound. CHI
means ENERGY. It exists in all directions, so in the Surangama Sutra, Manjushri said the best
way to cultivate was to listen to sound. He examined 25 cultivation methods and said for this
world, this Earth, this method was the best for human beings. It can help you attain
enlightenment quickly.
For example in China people say your ear is connected to the “sea of chi.” That does not mean
the dan tien even though names are similar. The “sea of chi” is everywhere. Sounds are
everywhere, energy is everywhere all around us every moment, every place.
Our ear (hearing) is connected to the ocean of being (our original nature). People see light all
around them but tend to forget about sound. Try to experience hearing and the sea of chi in the
universe. Life is within this sea of chi and sound. Hearing is connected to the sea of the original
nature.
So here’s the practice. It has three steps to it.
Step 1: The first step is to let go [of fixating on your thoughts] and you’ll start to hear all the
EXTERNAL sounds in the room, in your environment, wherever you are. You don’t have to
specifically listen. You don’t have to think about it. You do this all the time — you just hear and
know. If you somehow close off the function of hearing, however, then you cannot hear external
sounds. For example in rare cases you can become so focused or engaged in some task that you
can become totally oblivious to a sound that happens around you. We say you “forget the sound”
or “miss the sound” but it just means you’re like a scientist who becomes so absorbed in his
work that he becomes oblivious to the sound. That’s turning away from the hearing function.
Now Kuan Yin’s name means “Knowing and Observing Worldly Sounds.” What this means is
that you don’t have to search specifically for sounds — they are already there. You just observe
them and you know them. Hearing just functions and you know what you hear. It’s not
“observation” through the eyes or vision but listening, hearing. Hearing is the observation of
sound.
So here’s the practice. You’re sitting in formal meditation or just sitting in a room quietly. You
hear some external sounds but let go of the things (sounds) you hear. When you let go you still
hear. It’s a natural function, there’s nothing to do, so be relaxed about it. There’s still knowing of
sound without any need to strain to listen to a sound, so any straining or focusing is incorrect.
That’s using too much force and you can never enter samadhi that way just like you can’t enter
samadhi using anapana if you are always counting or focused on the tip of your nose. You just
know the air is going in and out of the nostrils when it happens and that’s it — no strain, nothing
to think about, you just know it. As to sound, the Zen master Bankei said you walk along and
hear a bird sing and naturally know it’s a bird without thinking, right? You don’t have to
purposely listen, grab the sound, let go of it or welcome it. Just be there naturally and you can
hear and know. There’s nothing to do except relax and be natural.
This is called “entering the flow of sound.” It’s the first stage of this practice. Anyone can do it
because you do it all the time. You just never turned it into a cultivation method. “Entering the
flow” means letting go of the sound you hear. Let it arise, but don’t analyze it, just know it when
it comes. When you notice a sound that’s knowing it — that’s all you need to do. If you practice
this, then your mind will gradually become calm by listening to sound. This is entering Kuan
Yin’s method.
In another Buddhist sutra it says “the sound of ocean waves, waterfalls, wind blowing, …. you
are capable of hearing all these sounds.” Doesn’t matter what these sounds are. All the sounds
are “empty” because they cannot be grasped. They cannot be held onto. They are empty because
they cannot stay in the mind but are effervescent and must depart. Can you grab onto them and
hold them forever? No, so we say they are empty. They are effervescent like light or a reflection
in a mirror you cannot grasp. And yet you can hear them … just like you can see light. You don’t
need any force, it’s natural, just don’t cling but let go. In fact, the more empty you are (not
preoccupied with thoughts and not clinging) the more you can hear. Don’t specifically focus on
the sounds but just notice them. This is called “entering the flow of sound.”
Gradually you will realize that all the sounds you hear have nothing to do with you. All the light,
colors, images you saw in “seeing the light” practice have nothing to do with you either — they
are just there, they transform. They represent energy so are empty because you cannot grab onto
energy or make it unchanging. Anything that always changes is empty of reality. As to sound, it
is just something that occurs to the mind, something that is experienced by the mind. You didn’t
make the sound. You just observe it when it comes. It has nothing to do with you. So there’s no
need to wait for it because that’s using force. Just relax, sounds come and you know them and
they depart. You don’t even need to let go because they just pass by. “All the sound has nothing
to do with me. It just occurs. It’s just there.” This is step one of practice.
Step 2: Gradually you don’t have to listen anymore. The mind quiets down and you connect with
emptiness. You experience emptiness. Sound is gone. The sound of silence (as a “mark” in the
mind) is gone. You need gong-fu to reach this stage because this is samadhi. Everything quiets
down. This stage is called “all the sound that enters quiets down.” It is mental cessation. The
monk Han Shan in his autobiography said after practicing Kuan Yin’s method by a waterfall that
he reached this state of cessation and stayed in this state for 24 days.
Step 3: There are two states to sound: (1) movement and (2) quietness/silence. When you hear
something it’s the moving state of sound. Silence is the quiet state of sound. These two are like
birth and death. In this third stage, both states have now disappeared and you meet the original
nature. Congratulations, you’ve succeeded.
After this you can have all sorts of miraculous superpowers. That’s why Kuan Yin has 32 special
appearances. He will follow the sound (thoughts) and try to help people. He can do that because
he’s out of the stream of sound so he’s never confused and can follow it back to the origin. The
method is so powerful that Kuan Yin used it to reach enlightenment before Shakyamuni, but
came back to be an assistant. Manjushri praised this method, Samantabhadra attained
enlightenment by using a hearing technique as well.
Basically, you let go of thoughts to reach a state of inner silence or cessation called samadhi.
That’s step 2. Then you let go of samadhi to meet the original nature. That’s step 3. That’s when
birth and death, or beingness (existence) and non-existence both cease to be.
Saoshun

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by Vasana » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:05 pm
Thanks for that great contribution Saoshun.
I'm currently gathering some resources on the topic of Mantra and sound (something i'm sure
others in here can help with) and specifically how all mantras, and even just the 'plain' language
we use for communication it's self, owes it;s existence to sound,reverberation and resonance.
Which ever way you look at it, sound,vibration,motion and dynamic are a pretext for
communicating words and Mantra.
If the source of all scriptures containing words and mantra is sound and hearing owes it's
existence to sound, it makes sense that we thoroughly examine sound from it's source, and
identify it's proximity in relation to our own mind,body,speech.
The question then arises as whether or not sound 'predates' meaning or if meaning 'predates'
sound... Or if meaning and sound are timelessly inseparable ...Something i'm sure can only really
be approached in meditation/contemplation.
Vasana

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by Saoshun » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:27 pm
Vasana wrote:Thanks for that great contribution Saoshun.
I'm currently gathering some resources on the topic of Mantra and sound (something i'm sure
others in here can help with) and specifically how all mantras, and even just the 'plain' language
we use for communication it's self, owes it;s existence to sound,reverberation and resonance.
Which ever way you look at it, sound,vibration,motion and dynamic are a pretext for
communicating words and Mantra.
If the source of all scriptures containing words and mantra is sound and hearing owes it's
existence to sound, it makes sense that we thoroughly examine sound from it's source, and
identify it's proximity in relation to our own mind,body,speech.
The question then arises as whether or not sound 'predates' meaning or if meaning 'predates'
sound... Or if meaning and sound are timelessly inseparable ...Something i'm sure can only really
be approached in meditation/contemplation.
Couple so called secrets from which I developed thru my practice. Take mantra from Usnisa
Dharani Sutra, chant it 21 times a day, after month or two, depends on your cultivation level and
insight you will feel before you aspect of invoked Buddha like solid feeling of air little buzzing it
would be her energy, try to push it or "go into it" with that inner feeling then you will heard the
true Nada. That's the best mantra you can have really and shame that almost nobody practice it
around.
For the nada yoga in general hindu dharma or yoga darshana you have AUM yoga or aumkar
yoga, you just chant A-U-M (not OM like mostly buddhist which is wrong way.) when you chant
every letter in the level of the belly button, solar plexus and the throat and hear with full attention
but without strain into these 3 sounds, after sometimes you will hear sound behind the sound like
I said - sun (sound) and the light (reverberation) it would be hear and feel like thick aspect of
sound or binaural beats, after sometimes it will be subtler and subtler till you go into bhairava
(rigpa) state.
Nada yoga is powerful path and most easiest because you can practice it even being deaf (inner
sounds) it's even better, many yogis plug their ears with stoppers to try to grasp subtle sound of
their inner being.
That which predated sound is silence, silence will absorb you into samadhi, in samadhi you can
develop siddhis and superpowers or just go into perfect enlightenment or just dissolve into
dharmakaya. But the deal is you must hear the silence like the sound, if you heard the silence,
your solar plexus will open up and you will be absorbed into diamond samadhi, world will
disappear as unreal and you will able to penetrate everything as mind will be not obstructed. you
will go unnoticed by all sentient beings but in your experience you will know that you are free
from birth and death. That is explanations to the sound of the solar plexus chakra which they
speak of from hatha yoga. That's pretty hight achievemend but it's still need a bit work to sustain
it and then to transform it into buddhahood, rainbow body or whatever.
Saoshun

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by Vasana » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:05 pm
Thanks for sharing your experience Saoshun . If at all possible, for the purpose of clarity, i want
to steer clear from discussing personal experiences related to Nada for the time being and try to
keep focused upon what the texts ,teachers and commentaries say just until we have enough
information collected here for people to make their own informed decisions and experiments.
This isn't because hearing about personal experiences and techniqes isn't helpful, but mostly
because i think the experiences and techniques people have will largely be dependent upon
individual-factors such as the nature of the individuals karma and the nature of the individuals
subtle/astral/vajra body with any of the nadi's, cakras and their corresponding blockages etc
Personal experiences and specific techniques can be useful to hear about, but you can see how
they also might be distracting for some people who might read them, and expect those
experiences or similar experiences to arise from the same methods, where as the nature of
experiences related to Nada sound in the body will vary from person to person and be
circumstantial and conceptual experiences are just temporary manifestations after all.
If you post a practice, post where the practice originates from ,or whether it was discovered
intuively when listening to the Nada.
If it was discovered intuitevly, it doesn't mean it's wrong or right, but probably just specific to
your own energetic configuration.
Vasana

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by Saoshun » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:41 pm
In vijnana bhairava tantra you have couple methods of hearing.
Saoshun

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by Vasana » Thu May 07, 2015 2:12 pm
Liberation through hearing – Thö-drol
Which most will be familiar with because of the Bardo thödrol, liberation through hearing in the
intermediary state.
Of which liberation is made possible because as Manjusri states,
For the faculty of hearing is beyond All thought, beyond both mind and body.
When one sense organ has to its source returned,
All the six senses thereby are liberated.
---
The union of Sound & Emptiness
When approaching practices related to the Illusory Body*, Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche mentions
in his book “Mind beyond Death” that you contemplate and explore the three aspects of relative
appearance; Form-emptiness, Sound-Emptiness & Awareness-Emptiness.
For the purpose of keeping things on topic, I’ll just quote the parts that mention recognizing the
impure illusory body by practcing with sound for now.
“When we read a book, the printed words we see are an appearance of form-emptiness. If those
words are read aloud, then the sounds we hear are an experience of sound-emptiness. One
method taught to train in hearing the spoken word as sound-emptiness is the practice of listening
to echoes.
...Training in sound-emptiness relates not only to our understanding of the nature of sound itself,
but also to how we understand language as a system for communicating meaning. It is important
for us to train in this aspect of sound-emptiness because we experience many disturbing
emotions, as well as a great deal of ego clinging and confusion as a result of our
misunderstandings of language overall. For example, when we hear a certain word, we tend to
connect it with a particular meaning. We project our meaning onto that word and then grasp onto
it as reality with great conviction.
...In this way, we will come to see how we mingle sound and our thoughts about sound together
to make a solid world, a solid reality. The more evi- dent this becomes to us, the more clearly we
will see how sound and meaning arise together in a dreamlike way, as illusory reflections or
echoes of the relative world. Therefore, training in sound-emptiness is a funda mental
preparation for our journey though all the bardos of life and death.
...We can see that when we say, “The world is illusory,” we do not mean that objects are illusory
while the subject is not. We do not mean that there is a truly existing subject that looks out on an
illusory world. Rather, there is a dreamlike mind that perceives a dreamlike world: a dreamlike
eye consciousness that sees dreamlike forms; a dreamlike ear consciousness that hears dreamlike
sounds, and so on. In all these practices, we adopt the view of appearance-emptiness, in which
we see all three spheres of our experience—subject, object and action—as illusory.”
---
A talk by Mingyur Rinpoche which includes the topic of sound-emptiness.
http://www.cultureunplugged.com/play/7845/Union-of-Sound-and-Emptiness
* http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/Illusory_Body
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From the Rangjung Yeshe Dictionary,
Chos nyid kyi rang sgra / Chönyi kyirangdra.
=
Natural / spontaneous sound of dharmata. One of the first displays in the bardo of dharmata
Natural sound of dharmata, Spontaneous sound of dharmata, the self-sound of dharmata, natural
sound of reality
Vasana

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by Monlam Tharchin » Thu May 07, 2015 4:58 pm
A silly question, but I read a short book about Nada and it said specifically that you use the high-
pitched ringing in the ears that is nearly always there as the meditation object.
I tried it one session and got a headache
Is Nada yoga then with just any sound?
Gone as of November 2015. PM me if you want to stay in touch.
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by Saoshun » Thu May 07, 2015 5:43 pm
duckfiasco wrote:A silly question, but I read a short book about Nada and it said specifically that
you use the high-pitched ringing in the ears that is nearly always there as the meditation object.
Who said that, where did you read about it? It's deviant idea to do so. Nada yoga is about silent
sound listening to the silence and getting absorbed into it (which is samadhi)
Last edited by Saoshun on Thu May 07, 2015 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Monlam Tharchin » Thu May 07, 2015 5:49 pm
"Inner Listening" by Ajahn Amaro. Granted, it's a book in the Theravadan tradition, but I'd be
surprised if the teachings are that divergent.
I didn't delve into the technique by any means. I believe the ringing sound is an object similar to
the breath, and the goal being absorption, similar to anapanasati.
I was just surprised to run into this thread so soon after reading that book, and curious about the
headache
Gone as of November 2015. PM me if you want to stay in touch.
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by Saoshun » Thu May 07, 2015 6:05 pm
Quote from this book
The nada-sound is a high-pitched inner ringing tone. When

you turn your attention toward your hearing, if you listen
carefully to the sounds around you, you’ll hear a continuous
high-pitched sound, like a white noise – beginningless, endless
– sparkling there in the background.
You seem did it wrong and over-force the mind. All practices like this are based on knowing
rather than concentrating on sound as an object.
Saoshun

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duckfiasco wrote:A silly question, but I read a short book about Nada and it said specifically that
you use the high-pitched ringing in the ears that is nearly always there as the meditation object.
You can use other sounds as objects of concentration, but the practice you mention is superior, as
it relates to the sound of your own Nadi/subtle channels.
From your description, it seems like you were focusing on the sound, but had too much tension /
rlung in the face and forehead. Try again but just notice if your straining any part of your body
and then relax accordingly.
I strongly recommend that same practice though. Contrary to what Saoshun said, that practice is
not at all at odds with practice relating to sound and Nada. Of course the final goal is going
beyond the duality of hearer and the heard,reversing the sense field back to it's orgin and into
various Samadhis but that initial practice is vital to begin with as it enables you to ;
a - Identify the Nada

b- experiment and pay attention to how different states of mind and scanning different parts of
the body can effect the frequency and tone you hear.
Different kinds of visualization practices ,Guru-yoga, physical ,emotional and mental states can
also produce noticeable shifts in the nada frequency heard. Important to note that not hearing the
sound, or hearing the sound shift , doesn't always mean that a practice isn't working or ineffective
and similarly , hearing the Nada and hearing it shift doesn't always mean your experiencing
anything remarkable or special either, but it can definitely become a useful helper in
understanding the mechanisms behind experience as it works very similar to the concept of bio-
feedback.
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by Vasana » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:14 pm
Recent post from
http://levekunst.com/unborn-sound/
This practice is known by many names in the different traditions in which it is or was used. I
have chosen not to use any of the existing names because in almost every case, I have found that
the original practice has been misunderstood and conflated with a similar technique using
external sound. Thus, Nada Yoga is today thought of by many as the yoga of using external
sounds and music to meditate. Primordial Sound Meditation which would seem to be related to
the self-sounds of our true nature, is instead a practice using a secret personal mantra that is
repeated to oneself...(article continues
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by Panaesthesia » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:24 am
I am the author of the article from levekunst.com referenced above.
The translation of the Surangama Sutra referenced in this thread is not as clearly written as the
one that was recently published by the Buddhist Text Translation Society, in my opinion; but all
translation is treason, substituting the translator’s interpretation of the writer’s meaning-you can
never get back to the original meaning from a translation.
In the case of such a profound document as the Surangama Sutra, especially as it applies to the
practice of "Kuan Yin’s" method described therein, without profound experience practicing the
method, the translator’s haven’t a clue what is being discussed—in this particular case—because
of the character of the support used in the practice. Words fail always; but in this case can be just
outright misleading.
Note also, for instance, the name “Quan Yin” does not have the same meaning as
“Avalokitasvara.” And the name used in referencing the sutra in this thread, “Avalokiteśvara,” is
also different. “Guanshiyin” is closer to the original “Avalokitasvara.” The name, in the BTTS
translation I referenced above, is “He Who Hears The Cries Of The World,” that being one of the
common powers gained through this technique, and the special attribute of Avalokitasvara/
Guanshiyin. The mangling of these names over time, based on the misunderstanding of what the
original names were referring to, changes the reference to a power, to the stature of a
position--"lord who gazes down (at the world)."
Vasana, the creator of this thread, asked if the word “permanent” would be better than
“continuous or unceasing.” They are all wrong, in my opinion, because they all imply that the
support used in this practice exists. It does not. That is why I am so pleased with the name that
was selected to head the levekunst.com article, “Unborn Sound.” The support used in this
practice is literally “unborn” because it does not exist; not even in the same way that all other
dharmas don’t exist; because this “sound” is the reverberations/resonances/echoes/interpretations
of the “ontogenesis” of all dharmas.
But that, I am sure, is a meaningless statement in its purely conceptual meaning, which is what
most readers of this thread will process it as. As well, anyone reading that will not understand
that I distinguish strongly between “exists” and “is real.” What exists is what can be known;
what can be experienced—what is normally mistaken for “separately existing things with a self-
nature” (that being the illusion). What is real, isn’t something that you will run into on your daily
rounds. It is non-contingent (does not depend on anything else; not even our overlooked
conceptual complications of “space” and “time” which we imply whenever we even talk about
“vibrations” or “sound”), simple (i.e. noncompounded, non-time-bound), necessary, and
evidenced. That last one causes the most trouble for scientists who all tend to believe in magic—
in practice—even though they refute that vehemently in principle. The world existing around us,
including even our own bodies, are all evidence of the "true nature" that manifests it. This is the
"smoke is evidence" of fire allegory. Scientists disavow the reality of the fire, trying to prove that
smoke creates smoke.
The insurmountable difficulty that I have found in all the names used to refer to the support used
in this particular practice is that all “sound” exists only in the mind, as does “silence” which is
just the heard absence of sound. (Since the mind is hearing the silence, the discerning mind is
still active, and that is not yet the end of the path using this practice.) What exists in the world
are air pressure changes, not sound. The mind interprets--as "sound"--the impulses transmitted to
the brain from the ears, where external pressure changes are sensed and translated into nervous
impulses. But the mind also interprets the vibrations in the body itself, such as the noises of
digestion, the grating of teeth, the cracking of bones, the “thumping” of the heart, the
“whooshing” of the blood, etc. as sounds too. None of these are the “sound” used as a support in
this practice, which are not even of the same character, as they do not arise in the body. Don’t be
confused by the description of the practice as “turning your hearing inward.”
Turning your hearing inward is not turning your attention to internal created sounds in the body.
Turning “inward” is not turning “in”; when you turn your hearing inward, you are turning away
from created sounds, whether they arise externally to your body, or internally in your body. You
are turning "inward" towards your (true) nature.
The support of this practice does not exist; yet you can “hear” it in the space between thoughts.
Some of us are blessed in our practice to be able to hear the “self-sound of the nature of our
attention” even over the din of thinking (others run to the doctor for help).
That high-pitched tone is merely the ontogenesis of your attention. Over time, as you progress in
your practice, you might notice that it tracks the focus and intensity of your attention. The tone
rises in pitch and intensity as your concentration develops. And, I suppose, focusing extremely
hard one-pointedly might give you a headache; but that is more a physical reaction to
accompanying soft-tissue straining as you try to turn up your concentration. But this is only
related to developing shamatha, which you can waste this practice on if you want.
The important point about the support used in this practice is that it is not like the breath, or any
other meditation support (Manjushri's point in the Surangama Sutra), and it doesn't develop
“anapanasati” for the reasons that I state in the short article appearing on levekunst.com. To
believe it is, is to totally misunderstand the character and importance of this practice.
And in furtherance of your collection of historical sources and writings, here something to add (I
have much more):
Dzogchen has three central practices, only two of which are taught and performed today. The
"Yeshe Lama" instruction manual starts by explaining this. The one no longer used is the one I
am writing about.
The root tantra of the seventeen dzogchen tantras received by Padmasambhava from Shri Singha
is called "The Reverberation of Sound tantra" (Dra Talgyur Root Tantra "sgra thal 'gyur gym
rgyud") and the practice is described therein. It has not been translated yet, although there is an
effort underway in Austria at the direction of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
In yogic practices this practice is called Nadanusandhana.
It is called Nada Yoga elsewhere in Indic traditions, although this is more properly called
Anahata Nada Yoga in order to distinguish it from just listening to external sounds, music,
chants, mantra, etc.
It is known in ALL spiritual traditions.

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by Jeff » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:18 pm
Thank you for the excellent overview.
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by Malcolm » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:58 pm
Panaesthesia wrote:
am writing about.
It is taught today.
When the commentary is published, I think you will be a little surprised at what this practice
actually is. The root tantra itself does not devote more than a few stanzas to describing it. The
commentary sets out in detail how one actually enters into the sounds of the four elements. But
most importantly, it is a preliminary practice.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
The very meaning of the Tibetan term Dzogchen, "Great Perfection," refers to the true
primordial state of every individual and not to any transcendent reality.
-- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
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by Panaesthesia » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Panaesthesia wrote:
am writing about.
It is taught today.
When the commentary is published, I think you will be a little surprised at what this practice
actually is. The root tantra itself does not devote more than a few stanzas to describing it. The
commentary sets out in detail how one actually enters into the sounds of the four elements. But
most importantly, it is a preliminary practice.
Ah, well. So many people confused about so many things... I've been hoping that the "Dra
Talgyur" would contain more information about the practice it refers to in the title, given the
assertions of Jamgön Kongtrul in "The Treasury Of Knowledge, Esoteric Instructions" (Book 8,
Part 4): "(sGra) thal 'gyur (rasa bali rgyud): A main tantra in the esoteric instruction class of
atiyoga. It explains how to attain the level of nirmanānakāya and how to accomplish the welfare
of others through practices related to sound" (Rangdrol, "The Circle of the Sun," 82)
All this time I've considered Jigme Lingpa's description of the practice as the yoga of four
(external) elements just an error on his part caused by his admitted unfamiliarity with the
practice, but I guess the confusion goes deeper.
I assume that you mean the same thing Malcolm. If not, what "this practice" are you referring to?
And are you referring to the Vimalamitra commentaries? I've been talking with Jean-Luc Achard
about his translations of those commentaries, but he's still working on them.
Trust me, though, the yoga of four (external) elements is not what the Surangama Sutra speaks
of, and is not the practice that brought Gautama Buddha (and all Buddhas according to
Manjushri), Manjushri himself, and Avalokitasvara to enlightenment. And it's not the practice
that I am writing about.
These descriptions, from Mahamudra, are for the practice I am writing about:
These quotes are from p. 91 and p. 93 respectively of "Masters of Mahamudra: Songs and
Histories of the Eighty-four Buddhist Siddhas" by Keith Dowman, Publisher: State University of
New York Press (ISBN 978-0-88706-160-8):
...his mastery of the "unborn, unstruck sound" made audible by eradication of concepts,
judgements, comparisons and criticism that obscure cognition of the pure sound of the
instrument, is accomplishment of the fulfilment process. The unstruck sound is the sound of
silence and is the auditory equivalent of phenomenal emptiness. It is absolute sound; it is the
potential sound of everything composed and waiting to be composed. Lost in this non-sound, the
sense of self becomes infinitely diffused in emptiness.
Taken from: “Songs of Naropa - Throng Rinpoche, COMMENTARIES ON SONGS OF

REALIZATION” pgs. 168-170:
The fourth method is called 'bringing the bardo onto the path'. The bardo is the intermediate state
between this life and the next. After this life has dissolved and the next rebirth has not yet
unfolded, there is an in-between period where the consciousness undergoes various experiences -
sounds, colors, lights, and other manifestations. Because of the attachment to the normal events
in our lives, we are deeply unsettled and intensely worried when we arrive in the bardo state. We
think: "I don't know where to go. Oh no! Where will I take rebirth?" We are terrified and
overcome by all sorts of immense anxieties. This situation, the bardo experience, needs to be
brought onto the path. Here's how to do this.
As Buddhist practitioners, we should strive to not be like an ordinary person, who wants only to
enjoy and be comfortable in this life. An ordinary person, by definition, doesn't give any thought
to the fact that sooner or later we all die and whether we like it or not, we arrive in the bardo
state. During the bardo ordinary people have nothing to hold onto, and they experience immense
fear. Overcome by panic, distress, and despair, they may feel incredible regret for how they spent
their life. Their intense uncertainty about what is going to happen to them is terrifying. In order
to avoid this, we need to make sure right now that we do not end up totally unprepared for the
bardo phenomena. Whether we do or not is entirely in our hands right now. We should repeatedly
picture ourselves in the bardo state and imagine how it would be. This will help us to become
more settled and self-assured so that we will not be totally bewildered or at a loss as to how to
deal with that circumstance. It is extremely beneficial to bring the bardo state onto the path in
this way.
Whether we are alive in a physical body or have passed on and are in the bardo state, the most
important thing is to be stable-minded and level headed. Be steady in yourselves, and do not
become totally overwhelmed by experiences; do not immediately get carried away by whatever
takes place. This is an important quality to cultivate. Other- wise, whenever we feel pain or
anxiety, we will be totally caught up in it. Train now to be more balanced in your response to
your emotions. Cultivating this quality through Dharma practice makes an incredible amount of
difference as to whether we take an unfortunate rebirth or a good one. During the bardo state, it
is said that we encounter the natural sound of dharmata, the intrinsic and empty lights, colors,
and sounds. We can grow accustomed to these right now. Train first by sitting with closed eyes.
At first everything is dark and we don't see a thing, but eventually shapes start to appear. There
are bits of light that takes different forms, perhaps moving; maybe green, yellow, blue or red.
After a while it is possible that these formations of light will start to become bigger. They could
even become quite overwhelming, but you should remain completely relaxed. These appearances
are not made out of anything. They are insubstantial, and there is no real place that these
formations come out of, or dwell. There is nothing to be astonished about; they are merely an
expression of the empty nature. Once we grow slightly accustomed to these light formations that
are the naturally empty lights of the innate nature, we have developed a kind of steadiness that
will help us not to be overcome by the natural lights of dharmata in the bardo.
Similarly, we can grow accustomed to the intrinsic sound of dharmata that occurs in the bardo
state by sitting down in a quiet place with no noise and paying attention. We should direct our
concentration towards our hearing, not in an extroverted way, but tuning into a subtle sound that
is present all by itself. Sometimes it helps to clench your teeth slightly and listen. There is a
subtle roaring which you can hear more and more if you focus. It is not the sound of physical
things clashing together, like a drum or any outer material objects. It is the sound of our own
nature. When we pay attention, we find that the sound is not coming from anywhere, it remains
nowhere, and it is not made out of anything at all. While looking into the identity of this intrinsic
sound, there is no identity to find. It's totally insubstantial. Simultaneously, there is the hearing of
this sound vividly and distinctly. This is identical in nature with the natural sound of dharmata
during the bardo state. If we can relax into the hearing without being apprehensive or caught up
in it, we can avoid being overwhelmed by the natural sound of dharmata in the bardo state.
Panaesthesia

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by Malcolm » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:04 pm
Panaesthesia wrote:
Ah, well. So many people confused about so many things... I've been hoping that the "Dra
Talgyur" would contain more information about the practice it refers to in the title, given the
assertions of Jamgön Kongtrul in "The Treasury Of Knowledge, Esoteric Instructions" (Book 8,
Part 4): "(sGra) thal 'gyur (rasa bali rgyud): A main tantra in the esoteric instruction class of
atiyoga. It explains how to attain the level of nirmanānakāya and how to accomplish the welfare
of others through practices related to sound" (Rangdrol, "The Circle of the Sun," 82)
The practices related to sound come from the first chapter, and the entire first chapter is a series
of preliminary instructions.
All this time I've considered Jigme Lingpa's description of the practice as the yoga of four
(external) elements just an error on his part caused by his admitted unfamiliarity with the
practice, but I guess the confusion goes deeper.
No, it is not an error at all. This is one kind of practice included in general in the practice of the
elements
I assume that you mean the same thing Malcolm. If not, what "this practice" are you referring to?
And are you referring to the Vimalamitra commentaries? I've been talking with Jean-Luc Achard
about his translations of those commentaries, but he's still working on them.
Yes. It is a long complicated section impossible to summarize here apart from saying that it
teaches a progression of practices that are titled: the sound of 1) the Brahmaloka, 2) Vishnu
Loka, 3) Kalavinka Loka, 4) the four elements and 5) the voice of the teacher.
These descriptions, from Mahamudra, are for the practice I am writing about:
These quotes are from p. 91 and p. 93 respectively of "Masters of Mahamudra: Songs and
Histories of the Eighty-four Buddhist Siddhas" by Keith Dowman, Publisher: State University of
New York Press (ISBN 978-0-88706-160-8):
Right, that is not what is described in the sgra thal 'gyur.

by MalaBeads » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:20 pm
Thank you.
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by Panaesthesia » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:Right, that is not what is described in the sgra thal 'gyur.
Can I ask you for a clarification Malcolm? Are you a translator of Tibetan? Did you read the
original text itself, or are you reporting what you heard in a teaching? I am curious as to how
someone of the stature of Jamgon Kongtrul could be so wrong about what the text said.
Thank you, Malcolm

Panaesthesia

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by Malcolm » Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Panaesthesia wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Right, that is not what is described in the sgra thal 'gyur.
Can I ask you for a clarification Malcolm? Are you a translator of Tibetan? Did you read the
original text itself, or are you reporting what you heard in a teaching? I am curious as to how
someone of the stature of Jamgon Kongtrul could be so wrong about what the text said.
Thank you, Malcolm
I read the text myself. It is unlikely that Kongtrul has access to the commentary of the sgra thal
'gyur. It was lost.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
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by Malcolm » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:54 pm
BTW, what you cite is a footnote on pg. 383, note 102 which itself is taken from Erik Pema
Kunsang's appendix to Circle of the Sun, which is actually a summary of texts written by Khenpo
Ngachung and others.
Kongtrul's actual remark on page 92 merely states what I said above, that this is a preliminary
practice. It has nothing to do with the unstruck sound you are interested in.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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by Vasana » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:57 pm
Thanks for your contributions to the thread Malcolm and Panaesthesia.
Thanks for clearing up what the sgra thal 'gyur entails Malcolm.
Panaesthesia wrote:
The translation of the Surangama Sutra referenced in this thread is not as clearly written as the
one that was recently published by the Buddhist Text Translation Society, in my opinion; but all
translation is treason, substituting the translator’s interpretation of the writer’s meaning-you can
never get back to the original meaning from a translation.
I'll check the other version. For those interested , it's found here :
http://www.buddhisttexts.org/surangama.html
Panaesthesia wrote: Note also, for instance, the name “Quan Yin” does not have the same
meaning as “Avalokitasvara.” And the name used in referencing the sutra in this thread,
“Avalokiteśvara,” is also different. “Guanshiyin” is closer to the original “Avalokitasvara.” The
name, in the BTTS translation I referenced above, is “He Who Hears The Cries Of The World,”
that being one of the common powers gained through this technique, and the special attribute of
Avalokitasvara/Guanshiyin. The mangling of these names over time, based on the
misunderstanding of what the original names were referring to, changes the reference to a power,
to the stature of a position--"lord who gazes down (at the world)."
Vasana, the creator of this thread, asked if the word “permanent” would be better than
“continuous or unceasing.” They are all wrong, in my opinion, because they all imply that the
support used in this practice exists. It does not. That is why I am so pleased with the name that
was selected to head the levekunst.com article, “Unborn Sound.” The support used in this
practice is literally “unborn” because it does not exist; not even in the same way that all other
dharmas don’t exist; because this “sound” is the reverberations/resonances/echoes/interpretations
of the “ontogenesis” of all dharmas.
I'm not sure others interpret the etymological 'problem' of the names, Avalokitasvara/Guanshiyin,
in the same way as you do. In either case, names aside, i don't think the meaning gets too
distorted.
I didn't ask if the word 'permanent' would be better than 'continuous or unceasing'. On the
contrary ,I phrased it the other way around. My reasons were that whenever we hear about
'unborn' phenomena ,particular in madhyamika, it's always coupled with 'unceasing' too. That
which is unborn, can neither cease , but phenomena and noumena at the conventional level none
the less, continue to manifest.
The subtle trap is when we substantiate non-entities and make 'unborn' into an object.
Panaesthesia wrote: That high-pitched tone is merely the ontogenesis of your attention. Over
time, as you progress in your practice, you might notice that it tracks the focus and intensity of
your attention. The tone rises in pitch and intensity as your concentration develops. And, I
suppose, focusing extremely hard one-pointedly might give you a headache; but that is more a
physical reaction to accompanying soft-tissue straining as you try to turn up your concentration.
But this is only related to developing shamatha, which you can waste this practice on if you
want.
Ontogenesis of attention is a good phrase. Let's not forget that traditional texts like the hatha
pradipika mention that the sound is related to the state of the individuals nadis,bindu/thigle,
prana, cakras etc Which is symulatenously in relation to attention and experience ...The sound
can also change in relation to any generation/completion practice intrinsically connected with the
subtle body and with yoga asanas,pranayana etc
In short, attention not merely restricted to the mind, but extended through and as the physical and
subtle body-mind complex as you mentioned elsewhere.
Last edited by Vasana on Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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by Vasana » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:07 pm
A great recent article on the Sanskrit language including it's sonic nature and it also touches upon
empowered sound within the context of Guru-student transmission.
I remember reading on here about the link between Sanskrit and the language Buddhas will, or
have always taught with. Is this correct Malcolm, or anyone else who remembers what it is i'm
thinking of ?
http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/devava ... -sanskrit/
Devavani—Light on Sanskrit
Sanskrit is often referred to as the language of the Devas. But is this really true? Certainly the
antiquity of Sanskrit is not in question, as there is little doubt that the vibrational and sound
model for Sanskrit is considerably old, as Sanskrit as a language is traced back to at least the
Brahmi script[i], and some Indologist have theorized that Brahmi was a later variant of the Indus
Valley script, but these are hotly debated issues among those that study the ancient history of
India.
Some refer to Sanskrit as devavani, which can be literally translated as the ‘speech of the Gods’,
‘divine speech’ or divine language’. If one allows their mind to drift back into human history or
within the limited scope of recorded history, relative to language, a common theme is revealed,
namely the concept of a Divine language, as this concept did appear in a variety of the world’s
ancient traditions.
Often the concept of a divine language is dismissed as an attempt to control the masses or extol a
religious caste; yet, one must wonder could there be more to this idea of a divine language?
Few subjects I have written about elicit more arguments than the suggestion that Sanskrit is a
Divine Language. Yet, it was Joseph Campbell who recognized the spiritual importance of
Sanskrit when he stated, ‘Now I came to this idea of bliss because in Sanskrit, which is the great
spiritual language of the world…’ (‘The Power of Myth’ p. 120). While Campbell did stop short
of proclaiming Sanskrit as a divine language, it is implied to a degree with the proclamation of
‘…the great spiritual language of the world…’ Yet, aside from the concept of a Divine language,
there is a great resistance among modern spiritual seekers to recognize the spiritual significance
or important spiritual role of Sanskrit.
Often this is rooted in a misplaced belief in evolution of language instead of devolution of

language. To understand this evolution/devolution conflict and spiritual significance of Sanskrit,
one must delve deeper into the meaning of Devavani.
Modern Vs. Ancient Language.

While modern language is a dynamic language, meaning a language that is adding additional to
its vocabulary as new technology and slang terms arise that fulfils an important role in meeting
the mundane needs of life and communication. Interestingly, the world has been slowly creeping
toward a global standard of English as a common standard.
From the traditional view of Yoga/Hinduism, the Devas speak in a language of light (jyothi).
Humanity speaks in the various languages that have manifested globally, culturally and over
time.
From the view of Yoga/Hinduism, spirituality requires a bridge between the languages of light
and the languages of humanity.
Hence, the important function of a divine language—bridging the language of humanity and the
language of light.
Within the world’s copious manifestations of language, one of the last remaining bridges
between the language of light and the language of humanity is Sanskrit.
As Sanskrit is a language based upon vibration and frequency. As Sanskrit bridges the language
of light and particle, traditionally the view is that Sanskrit naturally brings the language light into
form, and allows form to be expressed and directed back into light.
From the position of the Sanskrit grammarian, the language of light and words need two powers,
the power of being perceived, and the power of causing perception (vakyapadiya 55). Sanskrit is
a language that fulfills this bridge between light and humanity. Additionally, it was the emanation
of light expressed in the primal syllable (AUM) which is the vibrational substratum of all of
creation (tattvas). This substratum is generated through the Sanskrit letters and forms the
Sanskrit alphabet.
The combination of sounds from the Sanskrit alphabet merge together to form vibrational
essence, eventually expressed as words. This process is akin to a modern chemistry or molecular
biology class, in which the base components are mixed to form more complex components.
There are several views toward the application of the divine language. Yet for our purposes, these
can often be reduced to two primary positions in the modern age: 1) Sanskrit has its own innate
power (shakti). 2) The Sanskrit word must be empowered by a Guru. As emanating from the
primal sound and forming the elements (tattvas) of creation, there is little doubt that the
commonly known proto sounds of Sanskrit do carry a shakti within their own vibratory matrix.
Views Regarding Empowered Sanskrit.

There are several views toward the application of the divine language. Yet for our purposes, these
can often be reduced to two primary positions in the modern age: 1) Sanskrit has its own innate
power (shakti). 2) The Sanskrit word must be empowered by a Guru. As emanating from the
primal sound and forming the elements (tattvas) of creation, there is little doubt that the
commonly known proto sounds of Sanskrit do carry a shakti within their own vibratory matrix.
Likewise, it would be true that the Guru would add a shakti to a mantra when it is given to a
disciple (sishya). Therefore, it would be correct to take the position that both are correct relative
to the level of consciousness of the spiritual aspirant.
In other words, one that has developed the level of consciousness necessary can easily tap into
the shakti of the language with only assistance of the vibratory essence of the Sanskrit letters.
For those that lack awareness of the more subtle levels of vibration, the shakti of the Guru can in
essence ‘jump start’ their system, and aid in their spiritual understanding and transformation.
Understanding Levels of Speech.
Through the process of application of the bridge between the language of the Devas and
humanity, an individual comes closer to experience the sphota[ii] or expansiveness of the word.
In its higher manifestation sphota is the primal vibratory expansiveness of sound[iii], within
some traditions this is referred to as Shabda Brahman or the sound qualities of Brahman.
In its lower manifestation and from a grammar perspective, it is grammar. Philosophically there
are four levels of speech, with the latter three being the greater focus of grammar:
Para—unmanifested knowledge
Paśyantī—conceptualization, cognition
Madhyamā-speaking
Vaikarī–comprehension[iv]
It is through the four levels of speech one can see a developed system for cognition ranging from
a lower manifestation of Paśyantī as individual cognition to a type of Para Paśyantī that bridges
the cosmic unmanfested knowledge and cognition; it is this para Paśyantī that is responsible for
the flash of realization and understanding that can suddenly occur.
This can be achieved through repetition (japa) of mantra, and is often experienced through a
sudden burst of realization or direct experience of light.
This is an exciting level for examination and is at the heart of modern seekers of the spiritual
experience. Likewise, it is often one of the most abused areas, as it rather easy for the ego to
proclaim various realizations that may be false.
Hence, one can easily see the importance of having a teacher and developed skills of discernment
(vivek) within the practice of not only Yoga/Hinduism, but within the application of mantra as
well.
While we are only ‘scratching the surface’ of Devavanni, one can easily see the important role of
a Divine language, as well as its fundamental necessity to bridge the language of light and the
language of humanity.
Critics will argue that many have spiritual experiences, and they have no knowledge of a Divine
language. Certainly it is correct that human history is filled with examples of spontaneous
awakening of knowledge, one of the common threads among those that have had such
experiences is they lack a nomenclature to encapsulate the spiritual experience; giving birth to
variety of vague and difficult to understand terms that vary in substance and clarity.
Often, due to the lack of a nomenclature they are hindered in helping others obtain the same
results. Likewise, it is difficult or impossible for them to return to that state at will, or ever in
some cases. Therefore, the experience is more akin to a karmic moment than a mastery of a state
of consciousness.
An understanding of and application of a Divine language nicely fulfills this need, which would
explain why India has produced enlightened teachers at a prolific rate and to a greater degree
than any other known cultural outside of the dharmic traditions.
~ by Yogi Baba Prem
As with earlier posts, there are some words and terms which you won't found used in Buddhist
texts and commentaries, so discernment is needed when knowing which terms,phrases and words
have a relevant counterpart found in Buddha-Dharma.
Vasana

Posts: 246
Top
by dreambow » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:03 am
Edward Salim Michael wrote the book on nada yoga 'The way of inner vigilance' He was
influenced by Nono Rinpoche and his book had a profound impact on Ajahn Sumedho. He spend
several years in India but ended up living in Paris in a precarious situation trying to earn a living.
Edward was a wonderful musician and composer and at some stage became interested in hatha
yoga, later his spirituality developed deeper aspects and became more earnest and intense and
Edward considered himself a Buddhist; years earlier when he saw his first statue of a Buddha, he
froze and was simply unable to move at seeing the Buddha rupa.
dreambow

Posts: 127
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:59 am
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by Vasana » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:42 am
+ two other great resources found elsewhere on this forum .
The meaning of Sound,Sign & Reality & The meanings of the syllable Hūm , both by Kūkai.
Vasana

Posts: 246
Top
by MalaBeads » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:33 pm
Vasana wrote:+ two other great resources found elsewhere on this forum .
Thanks very much for providing this link, even if it is 405 pages long!
I have used the seed syllable HUM on occasion and much to my surprise it is very, very
effective, so I will be interested in learning a bit more about it.
Thank you again.

MalaBeads

Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am
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by Vasana » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:17 pm
MalaBeads wrote:
Vasana wrote:+ two other great resources found elsewhere on this forum .
Thanks very much for providing this link, even if it is 405 pages long!
I have used the seed syllable HUM on occasion and much to my surprise it is very, very
effective, so I will be interested in learning a bit more about it.
Thank you again.
The entire book is 405 pages, but the relevant parts to this thread (those labeled in the link) are
just 2 chapters of it.

Nada Yoga Discussion From Dharma Wheel

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Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

by Vasana » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:19 am

In the Śūraṅgama Sūtra , Mañjuśrī says;

Who, unfailing as the sound of ocean tides,

Absence of sound means nothing heard, Not hearing devoid of nature.

In this Saha world Teaching is by voice.

Hearing is not of itself, But owes its name to sound.

'Tis good for teaching ‚Ananda

I particularly like these gathas ,

"Hearing is not of itself, But owes its name to sound.'

'Absence of sound means nothing heard, Not hearing devoid of nature.

Would continuous or unceasing be a better choice of word than permanent?

From the Nada yoga wiki page;

With perseverance and devotion

I mastered the vina's errant chords;

From the wiki on the various meanings of the Gankyil.

Feel free to post more resources,quotes,practice-methods and discussions related to Nada.

So here’s the practice. It has three steps to it.

The union of Sound & Emptiness

Chos nyid kyi rang sgra / Chönyi kyirangdra.

The nada-sound is a high-pitched inner ringing tone. When

a - Identify the Nada

In yogic practices this practice is called Nadanusandhana.

It is known in ALL spiritual traditions.

-- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Taken from: “Songs of Naropa - Throng Rinpoche, COMMENTARIES ON SONGS OF

Right, that is not what is described in the sgra thal 'gyur.

Re: Nāda yoga ~ Sound as Path ~ Sutra,Tantra,Mantra,Dzogchen

Thank you, Malcolm

Thank you, Malcolm

-- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

-- Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

http://www.hinduhumanrights.info/devava ... -sanskrit/

Often this is rooted in a misplaced belief in evolution of language instead of devolution of

Modern Vs. Ancient Language.

Views Regarding Empowered Sanskrit.

Understanding Levels of Speech.

Thank you again.

Thank you again.

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