Raw HC2

LH LH

Q: This recorder is also going. I need...okay. Hello.

[2] A: Hi.

Q: Um, as we get started, I wonder if you can just say a

little bit about you, like who you are, maybe what your
occupation is. Just a little bit to orient, um, someone to the
fact of you.

[5] A: Okay. I'm Liz Hayman. Um, I'm a licensed marriage

and family therapist in private practice. Um, do you want to
know other things about me?

Q: Whatever. That's all right. This is very unstructured

actually. Um, whatever feels like the right vibe for you.

[8] A: Um, I'm 30 years old.

Q: Um-hum.

[10] A: I live in San Francisco.

Q: Um-hum.

[12] A: Um, yeah.

Q: Okay. Thank you for that. So, I'll say a little bit
about this interview is going to be like. My interest and my
research is really about your experiences and the meanings
that your experiences have for you around two specific
techniques for guided imagery. One is safe place. But more
importantly, inner adviser work. Or, um, work with
personified figures, whether they're animals, energy beings,
humanoid, whatever form they may take, to hear about
those kinds of experiences. And there are eight questions.

[18] A: Okay.

1
Q: And it's just kind of loose and the questions aren't
like hard and fast, we can just go around spontaneously and
see what happens.

[21] A: Um-hum.

Q: Yeah?

[23] A: Yes. It's great.

Q: Do you have any questions about that so far or…

25] A: I don't think so. Are we going to do safe space and

inner adviser?

Q: We're actually not going to do imagery.

[27] A: All right.

Q: And it's actually, um, asking you about your

experiences with that, from the past or current kinds of
experiences. I know that you've done shaman work.

[30] A: Um-hum.

Q: So, that's also going to get touched on —

[32] A: Okay.

Q: — in our conversation today.

[34] A: Okay.

Q: Um, so the first question is—and the questions are a

little formal. Please describe how imagery and imagination
have played and continue to play a role in your life.

[37] A: Hmm. Um, I think that I'm definitely a very visual
person and, um, when I close my eyes I see so many images
all the time, so I think my experience with guided imagery,
um, was amazing to kind of put like a structure around that.
Um, and, yeah. I mean it's – it's always interesting to me to
hear about other people's experiences that are not as visual,
because I'm like, wait? You don't – you don't—you feel
things or you hear things. Like my experience is just so
[37-41] She is a very visual person. Any
time she closes her eyes she sees many
images. Learning RGI was amazing
because it structured her relationship to
images. It surprises her when others
report they don’t see images. This led
her to image work and shamanic
journeying.
Commented [BD1]: [37-41] Highly visual. RGI structured
relationship to images. RGI led her to shamanic journeying.
[Multi-Modal Approaches (MMA) - Personal Guided
Imagery (PGI) (5.i.ix), RGI (5.i.vii), Shamanism (S) (5.t)]
Imagery/Images/Imagination – Varieties (IIIV)
Spontaneously Arising Imagery (SAI) (4.i)]

2
visual when I close my eyes. Um, and then, I mean that led
so well into doing shamanic work and doing journeying.

Q: Um-hum.

[43] A: Because I can—I feel I can just really see things so [43] She “really sees things vividly and Commented [BD2]: [43] predominant visual sense. [IIIV
vividly and experience them that way. experiences them that way” (4.l)].

Q: Wow.

[45] A: Yeah.

Q: So, visual is really the predominant sense for mental

imagery for you?

[47] A: Yeah. [46-47] Vision is the predominant sense.

Q: Do you—sensory recruitment. Do you call in every

sense in an experience or does it stay pretty much a
witnessing mode for you?

[50] A: Um...yeah. I – I would say it stays, it's, but—I mean, [50-51] Doesn’t need to recruit Commented [BD3]: [50-51] Respondent is so visual she
other senses because she is really doesn’t use Sensory Recruitment to vivify imagers with
it generally just feels so vivid that I don't need to call in other senses. [IIIV (4.l)].
other senses because I—I'm really experiencing it. experiencing it.

Q: The experience feels complete —

[53] A: Yeah.

Q: — to you as it presents itself to you?

[55] A: Yeah.

Q: Okay. So, I'm going to, um, ask a few follow up

questions on this one, so like you've talked —

[57] A: Yeah.

Q: — a little bit personally about your experience. I

wonder if you could kind of like even just go into maybe a
laundry list of the things that you've done training-wise in
terms of inner work.

[60] A: With imagery or just in general?

3
Q: Well, um, I think in general. Because I think in a lot
of different systems incorporate imagery. Or if you're an
imagery person, it happens with whatever you do.

[63] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, so, whatever comes to mind. I know you did

IHH.

[65] A: Yes.

Q: Um, so —

[67] A: Do you want me to talk about that or —

Q: Maybe – maybe touch on that.

[69] A: Okay. Yeah, I mean I would say that was my – my

first experience of having a structure around it. So it was a [69-70] RGI at IHH was her first Commented [BD4]: [69-70] RGI and IHH helped structure
experience for have a structured way to her visual imagery. [MMA - RGI (5.i.vii)].
year long certification program in guided imagery,
expressive arts therapy. engage her spontaneous visual imagery.

Q: Um-hum.

[72] A: Um, and, you know, we did stuff like safe space and
inner adviser with bedside with hospital patients and then
also practice with each other. Um, which was so amazing
for me to learn about that.
[72-73] She facilitated safe place and
inner advisor with patients at their
bedsides. “Amazing”
Commented [BD5]: [72-73] Facilitated Safe Place and Inner
Guide imagery with acutely ill patients. [Parallel Methods
(PM) - Safe Space (SS) (6.f), Inner Advisor (IA) (6.d),
Professional Applications of Imagery (PAA) (5.i.x) –
Personal Guided Imagery (5.i.ix)].

Q: Can you say a little about your experience of that,

when you practiced it in Diane's?

[75] A: Um-hum. Yeah, um, I think what I was initially

[75-78] She had done a lot of individual Commented [BD6]: [75-78] Used imagery in individual
most struck by is, you know, up to that point had been in therapy/personal work. Imagery shifted emotions intensely.
therapy and personal work. Imagery
therapy a lot, um, and done, you know, always doing a lot And more quickly than talk-therapy [Salubrious Effects of
allowed her to feel shifts around Imagery (SEI) - Increased Awareness (8.gg), Insight (8.tt),
of work on myself. And I think what was so amazing was
emotional processes in an intense way Non-Rational Knowing (NRK) (8.aaa), Opening to
that I could have experiences or sort of feel a shift around Creativity of the Self (OCS) (8.bbb), Reveals What is
that was more immediate and disclosed
an emotional process in such an intense way that was more Hidden (RWH) (8.mmm)]; MMA, PGI (5.i.ix); IIIV, SAA
more quickly than traditional talk (4.i)].
than months of therapy, you know, to experience it in that
therapy.
particular way, um…

Q: So, like you could have a shift, an emotional shift,

through imagery —

[80] A: Yeah.

4
Q: — that talk maybe gets at in a longer way?

[83] A: Um-hum.

Q: But that it feels faster —

[84] A: Yes.

Q: — with imagery.

[86] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, and you can totally say no to this —

[88] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, or—but do you—are you able to say, uh, share

an experience that you have a shift?

[90] A: Yeah. Um, I mean, I think one of the first practices I

[90-92] Her first SAFE SPACE Commented [BD7]: [90-92] 1st Safe Space – Giant’s
did with Kim, um, was, you know, she did—took me
through the safe space and I – I remember, um, can't experience was Giant’s stadium. stadium. [PM– Safe Space (SS) (6.f).

remember the exact details of it but the space where I was

was the Giant's stadium.

Q: Okay.
[94-98] Beautiful sunset, clouds, Commented [BD8]: [94-98] Inner Sanctuary – the space
[94] A: And there was like this beautiful sunset and all these itself communicated “It is OK.” Felt profound. Emotionally
interacting with people familiar to her in
clouds and I was interacting with different people that were powerful. [Inner Sanctuary] [PM, SS (6.f), Imaginal Realm
her life. But the message that came with (6.c.iv)], IA - Inner Sanctuary (6.d.x); PQIA –
in my life at that point. And—but what I remember about it
this imagery experience is: “Its Ok that Communicative (2.f)]
is the message was that it's okay that things end. Um, which
things end.” If you heard this in a
is like something you could say in conversation or I could
conversation it wouldn’t be a big deal,
talk about in therapy, you know, and experience whatever
but in the inner space if felt deep and
I'm going to experience. But it was like so deep and
profound it registered in an emotionally
profound and landed in this particular way that it was like,
powerful way.
oh, yeah. It is okay that things end. Um, that just felt like
The powerful message came from the
such a powerful message like from the place.
place itself.
Q: Right. Right. And it sounds like it's a message that
registered in a really impactful way.

[100] A: Um-hum.

Q: Now, how did the message come to you? Was it just

a gestalt and understanding? Was it —

5
[102] A: I think, I mean, when we were learning about
it, there was like a prompt of a question to say at some point
in the imagery experience, you know, this place or—to have
a way of communicating with you or have a message for
you, what would that be?
[102-104] We were asked in the Commented [BD9]: [102-104] Asked if place had a
exercise if the image had a message for message for her. [SEI -Inner Guidance (8.ss)].
you and that is the message it
communicated.

Q: Um-hum.

[106] A: And it just hit me, that that was the message [106] “The message just hit me.” Commented [BD10]: [106] Spontaneous message [SEI –
Insight (8.tt), NRK (8.aaa); Increased Awareness (8.gg)].
of this place.

Q: And how did it feel, that message?

[108] A: It felt amazing. Yeah, it was – it was just—it
was so interesting to me to think about, like all the therapy
I'd done up to that point and then I could have this
experience that just was like exponentially more powerful
than that.
[108-109] Felt “amazing”—and so
interesting—all the therapy I had done
up to this point and then to have this
experience which was exponentially
more powerful”
Commented [BD11]: [108-109] Felt amazing. Had done
much talk therapy. Message from image more profound.
[PQIA –Communicative (2.f); SEI – Insight (8.tt), NRK
(8aaa)].

Q: Huh.

[111] A: Um, yeah.

Q: Yeah, they say—what is that line? Like insight is not

enough, talking is not enough. You need a re-experiencing
kind of thing —

[114] A: Yeah.

Q: — to repair. That's what I'm hearing.

[116] A: Yeah.

Q: Like—or to move, to shift. Um, thank you.

[117-118] It moves things and shifts Commented [BD12]: [117-118] Imagery powerfully moves
[118] A: Yeah. and shifts things.[SEI – Promotes Personality Integration
things in a powerful way.
(8.ccc)].
Q: For sharing that. Um, so, how imagery played —

[120] A: Oh.

Q: Go ahead.
[122-123] Her own therapist uses Commented [BD13]: [122-123] Imagery in therapy
[122] A: Well, because you were kind of having me imagery with her a lot, also dreams and significant for her. [MMA –Therapy-PGI (5.ix)].
go through, um, my training or my experiences and a piece it has had a “big impact” on her.
that's not training but that has had a big impact is, um, my

6
therapist works with a lot of imagery and works with a lot
of dreams. And I had a lot of experiences, um, doing that
kind of work with her, that were just amazing, you know.
And to use it in that context where she could, um, be like,
oh, remember when, you know, you had that image of like a
fox and this and that and this reminds me of this and, um, so
that was like, you know, in the background of professional
training that I was doing around this.
[124-127] The images she experienced Commented [BD14]: [124-127] Images a metaphoric short
in dreams and fantasy became hand in therapy. Linked inner and outer. [SEI –Enhances
Communication (8.m)].
interwoven in her therapy a kind of
metaphoric short hand that linked ideas
between inner experience and the
outerworld.

Q: Okay. So, your own therapy included it.

[129] A: Yeah.

Q: Uh-huh.

[131] A: Yeah. And then I did, for 16 months, uh, um,
intensive shamanic training, which the mechanism is called
journeying, but it's basically imagery and had incredible
experiences with that.
[131-132] 16-month shamanic training.
And the imaginal method is called
journeying. It’s basically imagery. She
had incredible experiences.
Commented [BD15]: [131-132] 16-month shamanic
training. Journeying. Incredible experiences. [MMA –
Shamanism (5.t)].

Q: Uh-huh. So, I'm going to kind of refine a little bit.

You're talking a little bit about like the personal experience,
um, I want to hear about like the professional experience,
how you use imagery and if you do, um, how it affects you,
um, physically. Is there physical correlation, um, a mental
correlation, like you've said that, basically. But also a
spiritual correlation. Does that figure into the imagery for
you too?

[137] A: Yeah. Um, well, professionally I think a way
that I tend to use it is because I am so visual and images
really come to me easily is often when I'm in a session, I'll
have an image, um, and I won't necessarily say like, hey,
here's this thing that's popping into my mind but I'll kind of
use that as, um, a guide in a certain way. Or if I'm having a
strong image, I will inquire if the client is. Um, yeah.
[137-140] Spontaneous imagery also
informs her work with clients. An image
will come that provides information
about the dynamics of the session. She
may hold the image herself or may even
share it with a client to see how it
affects the client.
Commented [BD16]: [137-140] Her imagery informs her
work with clients. Imagery provides information about
therapeutic dynamic. She may hold the image or share it with
client. [SEI - Increased Awareness (8gg), NRK (8.aaa),
Inner Guidance (8.ss), Insight (8.tt); MMA Professional
Applications (5.i.x)]

Q: And what happens? I guess different stuff happens,

but —

[142] A: Yeah.

Q: What stands out to you when you think about that

process?

7
[144] A: Um, well, I think initially it's like some—that
really works for some people and really doesn't work for
certain people, because I have clients that I know really
wouldn't like take to that necessarily, but then I have clients
who love it. Um, but I think it's often been just a really, um,
I mean, to kind of speak to the spiritual component, like
there's a resonance that happens of like my imagery their
imagery and, um, yeah, I mean, I love to have—watch my
clients have sort of a similar experience that I've gotten to
have where it's like, oh, yeah, I feel that in a different way
or it's shifting in a different way because I'm using an image
versus words.
[144-147] This practice works for some
but not others. Some clients love it.
[146] It feels spiritual. [146-147] A kind
of resonance happens: my imagery and
their imagery resonate. Like they are
having a similar experience.
[synchronicity] And sometimes using an
image instead of words produces a shift
that mere words do not.
[148-149] Images take you out of the
rational intellectual cognitive sphere
into an affective felt sense.
Commented [BD17]: [144-147] Not suitable for all clients.
[146] It adds a spiritual component to therapeutic work.
Resonance between hers and client’s imagery.
[synchronicity]. Images over words may produce greater
movement. [148-149] Affective Felt Sense, Not rational.
[SEI Increased Awareness (8.gg), NRK (8.aaa), Insight
(8tt), Promotes/Deepens Spirituality (8ddd); Professional
Applications (5.x); Transpersonal/Spiritual (TS) – Numinous
– Synchronicity (9.a.xiv)].

Q: Um-hum.

[151] A: Um…

Q: What's the advantage of image over words, as you

see it?

[153] A: I think it—I mean, for me it helps me get out

of my intellectual cognitive experience and more into a felt
sense.

Q: Um-hum.

[155] A: Um, that would be a hope of what it's like for

my clients too.

Q: Uh-huh.

[157] A: Um, I think—I also use it that way when I
can tell somebody's really like in their head, um, you know,
and I'll be like what—if that had a color, if that had a shape,
or if that had an image, what would it look like.
Q: Um-hum.
[157-158] If someone is stuck in their
head she might ask them to image
prompting questions “if it had a color
what color would it be” or “if it was an
image what would it look like”
Commented [BD18]: [157-158] Imagery reduces over
intellectualization. [Increases feeling] [MMA GI (5.i.x);
SEI - Increased Awareness (8.gg), Deepens Feelings &
Emotions (8.h), NRK (8.aaa), Insight (8.tt), SEI –Enhances
Problem Solving - Shift in Perspective (8.r.i); PA (5.x)].

[160] A: Um, I think it can – it can just like shift

[160] It shifts things in a different way. Commented [BD19]: [160] Images provide different
things in a different way. information than words. [SEI -NRK (8.aaa)].
Provides different information.
Q: Um-hum. Yeah. It's more information.

[162] A: Yeah.

8
Q: Yeah.

[164] A: Um-hum.

Q: Um, and spirituality like, um, I – I will say to the

recording that you shared with me some of your inner
experiences. Do you consider that to be your spirituality,
those kinds of experiences that you talked about?

[167] A: Yeah. Definitely. Um, I mean, my shamanic

teachers, she always says that shamanism is remembering.
And it's this connection to something that we've done as
human beings for thousands of thousands of years.
Q: Um-hum.
[170] A: Which I love that way of thinking about it.
Um, because it does feel that way. It's like when I have
those experiences, like some part of me is like, yes, yes, yes, of her spirituality—her connection to
this is like—this is right. This is what needs to be
happening.
[167-168] Spirituality. Shamanic teacher
says shamanism is remembering. It's a
connection to a tradition that humans
have engaged for thousands of years.
[167-168] connected to human
experiences since time immemorial.
[170-171] It feels right like a practice
that needs to be happening. This is part
self-others and the world.
Commented [BD20]: [167-168] Imagery is spirituality.
Remember forgotten knowledge. Connects to thousands
year-old traditions. [MMA – Shamanism (5.t)].
Commented [BD21]: [170-171] Shamanism/ Imagery
crucially spiritual technology to confer connection to self,
others, and the world. [MMA – Shamanism (5.t); SEI:
Promotes/Deepens Spirituality (8.ddd), Increased
Connection to Self, Others, And the Natural Word (8.lll);
Image as Metaxy (IAM) - Links Physical and Spiritual
World (1.g)].

Q: Um-hum.

[173] A: Um, and, yeah, just—is that my spirituality, [173-175] This is her spirituality. Commented [BD22]: [172-175] Imagery—especially
shamanic work the basis of her spirituality. [MMA: Guided
um — Imagery (5.i), Shamanism (5.t); SEI: Promotes/Deepens
Spirituality (8.ddd)].
Q: Or does it register as spiritual for you?

[175] A: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Um, yeah. Uh, I think [175-176] Wonders sometimes if she is Commented [BD23]: [175-176] Doubt. Making it up?

there's – there's always a question or in my experience of making it up. Teacher replies “make it
the shamanic training, a question of like, am I making this up harder”
up? And our teacher would be like, well, make it up harder.
You know?

Q: Yeah.
[179-180] She senses there is a reason Commented [BD24]: [179-180] Meaningful and specific
[179] A: Um, so—I don't know what my point is in images present which address some aspect of life. [SEI -
she experiences an image when she
saying that really, other than that. I – I know there's a Creates/Discloses Meaning (8.d)].
does. It has something to do with her
particular reason, um, that I'm having whatever particular
life.
imagery experience I'm having.

Q: Um-hum.
[182] It feels very true to her. Commented [BD25]: [182]nThe specificity of images
[182] A: That feels very true to me. makes them and their meaning feel true. [SEI- Insight (8.tt)].

9
Q: Uh-huh. Just the knowing —

[184] A: Yeah.

Q: — that comes along with it.

[186] A: Um-hum.

Q: Are you comfortable sharing one of those

experiences that you've had?

[188] A: Oh, there —

Q: That may be —

[190] A: — are so many.

Q: What – what's maybe the most vivid? Or important,

if that's safe.

[192] A: Um...wow. There's like 10 I can think of off
the top of my head. Um...well, one that just keeps popping
up, um… So, I think I told you this but I'll tell the
recording. So, the sixteen months is structured, four months
spent in each of the four directions.
[192-194] 16-month Shaman work Commented [BD26]: [192-194] 16-month Shaman class
class. Four months spent in each of the working each of the four cardinal directions. [MMA -
Shamanism (5.t)].
four directions.

Q: Yeah.
[195-205] There are lessons for each of Commented [BD27]: [195-205] Four directions on
the four directions on the medicine medicine wheel. West is the Shadow and confronting that
[196] A: Um, and there's a particular, you know, set of which is disavowed. Journey to meet shadow. 3 parts:
wheel. The West is about the shadow— became a cheetah hunting, became hunted antelope, was
lessons and medicine for each of those directions. And the
confronting the parts of yourself that are killed as antelope. Very visceral and intense. [MMA -
direction of the west is all about your shadow and the parts Shamanism (5.t); SEI – Increased Awareness, (8.gg), Inner
hard to face or painful. [199] This was
of yourself that are hard and painful and, um, it was a very Guidance (8.ss), Insight (8.tt), Creates/Discloses Meaning
intense for her. She journeyed to meet (8.d)].
intense time for me personally and it was also intense in the
her shadow. Three parts to the journey.
lives of everyone else in the training. Um, so, in the west,
1) Become a cheetah. She merged with a
um, we did a lot of journeys of journeying to meet our
Cheetah and imagined what it was like
shadow, which was really intense. Um, and we did this one
to hunt—to smell the prey, to stalk and
where, um, how was it? So there was – there was three parts
run—to have the full experience of
to the journey, so the first part was you become I think it
being the cheetah. 2) switch and become
was a cheetah. And you, like merge with the cheetah and
an antelope and feel what it is like to be
imagine what it's like to hunt, you know, to smell the prey
hunted—the fear of running for your
run and to, you know, to be having that full experience of
life. 3) decide to remain the antelope
like being a cheetah. And then you'd switch and you'd be an
and be killed—feel your flesh ripped
antelope and you would feel what it's like to be hunted. And
apart and bones crushed; feel your spirit
to feel that fear, to be running. And then in the third part
leave your body. or become cheetah and
you got to make a decision of either staying as the antelope
feel what it is like to kill to rip flesh and
and letting yourself be killed and feeling your flesh ripped

10
apart and your bones crushed and, you know, your spirit crush bones. She stayed the antelope—
leaving your body. this was intense visually but also
viscerally.
Q: Oh, wow.

[207] A: Um, or to stay the cheetah and feel what it's
like to, you know, rip flesh and crush bones and, um, so,
you know as I connected to this – this shadow experience
of, um, what it's like to feel fear and different parts of
yourself and all of that and it was—what, I mean, it was—
that was like a really physically intense journey for me. I
think that's like one that I can call to mind that it was very
visual, but very, like, very felt.
[207-210] Initially thought she would be
the cheetah killing but decided to be the
antelope and let a part of herself die.
She felt herself floating out of her
body—it was amazing.
Commented [BD28]: [207-210] Surprised allowed self as
antelope to die. Felt departure from body—amazing.
[Personal Transformation (PT) - Death & Rebirth (7.b),
Increased Insight/Understanding (7.f), Broader Perspective
(7.a); Transpersonal/Spiritual (TS) -Numinous: Death and
Dying (9.a.vii)].

Q: Uh-huh.

[212] A: Um, and I thought going into it like I'll

totally stay the cheetah and I'll just like hunt that antelope.
But when I was in it I was like, no, like I – I want to let this
part of me die and I want to feel what that feels like for that
to die. Um, you know, like feel myself like floating out of
my body and, yeah, it was – it was amazing.

Q: Can you say more about it?

[216] A: Um…

Q: Letting that part of yourself die.

[218] A: Yeah. I think, I'm thinking about what was
happening for me in that point in my life was, um, just like
struggling with depression in a major way and fear and, um,
there was something so like cathartic and healing about just
dying, like that part dying. Um, and feeling like how much
effort like the hunt takes and not wanting to do that
anymore.
[218-220] She was struggling with
depression at that point in her life. It
was cathartic and healing to die [in
imaginal world]]. Like the part that was
depressed died. Feeling how much effort
the hunt takes and not wanting to do that
any more.
Commented [BD29]: [218-220] Struggle with depression.
Dying as antelope cathartic and healing. The depressed part
seemed to die. [Healing]. [PT; Broader Perspective (7.a),
Increased Insight (7.f); SEI: Creates/Discloses Meaning
(8.d); Healing (H) – Mental (3.b), Emotional (3.a)].

Q: Huh.

[222] A: So, yeah.

Q: That's very, um, impactful, those images.

[224] A: Yeah.

11
Q: So, in shamanism it sounds like there was directed
imagery.
[225-226] Directed imagery. Commented [BD30]: [225-226] Shamanic Journeying
combines directed and [229-230] non-directed imagery.
[226] A: Yes. [MMA - Combination Directive/Non-directive Imagery
(5.i.i)].
Q: Like you were directed?

[228] A: Yeah.

Q: Is there also a component non-directed? [229-230] But a strong non-directed

component.
[229] A: Yes.

Q: Can you tell me about that?

[232] A: Yeah. I mean, typically the – the structure [232-235] Structure: You would journey Commented [BD31]: [232-235] Journey begins with
with an intention. (i.e., seek wisdom or intention. [MMA - Shamanism (5.t), Guided Imagery -
that we used is that you would have somewhat of an Foresight (5.i.vi)].
intention, um, you know, I'm going to go talk to this guy or guidance) it was open like “talk to a
that guy or I'm going to go here or there, um, for, you know, spirit guide in the underworld.”
wisdom or guidance or whatever the particular thing is. It
wasn't really ever like free for all, see what happens. But, I
mean, I think it would be pretty open and like journey to
talk to a spirit guide in the lower world. Um…

Q: What's a spirit guide?

[237] A: Oh, such a good question. I think it's...I

think—I mean, shamanism believes that you're sort of [237-239] Spirit guide. In Shamanism, Commented [BD32]: [237-239] Encounter spirit-guide
the belief is you are constantly [Inner Advisor] who shows interest and wants to help. [PM -
constantly surrounded by a number of guides. And you have Inner Advisor (6.d); PQIA – Communicative (2.f), Willing
guides that come for different reasons at different times. I surrounded by many guides. They come to Help (2. Yy)].
think they really want to interact with you and talk to you for different reasons at different times.
and, um… They want to interact with you and talk
with you.
Q: They have their own being?
[240-241] They have their own being. Commented [BD33]: [240-241] Spirit guides/Inner advisors
[241] A: Yeah. possess their own being. When interacting with guide one is
interacting with separate and autonomous being. [PQIA:
Q: Uh-huh. And there—therefore you're relating to Objective and Autonomous (2.ff)].

other beings when you interact with inner figures?

[242-243] Relating to other beings.
[243] A: Um-hum.

Q: Shamanic figures?

[245] A: Yeah.

12
Q: And that interaction is imagistic for you?
[247] A: Um-hum. Yeah, I mean, also what I feel
about spirit guides is they are parts of myself, um, I think
that's maybe one of the coolest things for me about imagery
is it gives me access to this huge depth of my own internal
wisdom.
[246-247] Interaction is imagistic.
[247] Also, feel like spirit guides area
part of herself.
[248] Imagery gives her access to the
huge depth of her own internal wisdom.
Commented [BD34]: [246-247] Imagistic interactions.
Guides also feel like part of self. [248] Imagery provides
access to depth of inner wisdom. [PQIA – Communicative –
Symbolic (2.f.viii); SEI -Taps/Give Access to Inner
Wisdom/Guidance (8.rrr)].

Q: Right. Right. I know what you mean. But I have to

ask you to elaborate.

[250] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, you have access to your own inner wisdom.

[251-252] Access your own wisdom.
[252] A: Yeah.

Q: Can you say – can you say something about that to

someone who maybe wouldn't know what that means?

[254] A: Yeah. I think that, you know, we move

through the world in the busyness of day to day life and [254-256] Outerworld distracts from Commented [BD35]: [254-256] Outerworld distracts.

when you can find a way to drop into your experience, or
when I can, I feel that there's—I mean, that there's so much
there that I wouldn't know is there when I'm able to access
it, um, and I think I have often thought like I need all this
stuff outside of me.
dropping in to one’s experience. There
is so much there when one becomes
quiet and goes inward.
The outerworld distracts.
Getting quiet and going inward provides a bounty of insight.
[Metaxy (M) - Connects Inner and Outer (1.c); PEI –
Grounds and Centers (8.cc)]:

Q: Um-hum.

[258] A: And what imagery does is help me know I

have everything I need inside of me. [258] Imagery helps her know Commented [BD36]: [258] Imagery shows everything one
everything she needs is inside her. needs is within. [PEI – Recall Forgotten
Wisdom/Knowledge (8.eee)].
Q: Wow. Hmm.

[260] A: Yeah.
[261-263] This is not the ego. It is a Commented [BD37]: [261-263] Inner wisdom is beyond
more expansive self. ego. [non rational] [SEI – Recognition of Ego Limitations
Q: You have everything you need inside you. And that (8.fff), NRK (8.aaa)].
sounds like that's not something that your ego knows in its
busyness in the world.

[263] A: Yeah.

Q: But when you drop in, you drop in to a more

expansive self.

13
[265] A: Um-hum.

Q: That's not just the ego's objectives.

[267] A: Right.

Q: Okay.

[269] A: Yeah.

Q: Thank you. So, you've already anticipated other

questions.

[271] A: Oh, cool.

Q: I'm not going to say what they were. Anything else

comes up, just chime in.

[273] A: Yeah.

Q: But I was going to ask, can you give me a history of

the various ways you've worked with images and
imagination and you already did.

[276] A: Um-hum.
1) [277] IHH 16 month RGI Commented [BD38]: [277] 12 month RGI at IHH. [MMA –
Q: You've told me that, um, you have the IHH 16 Guided Imagery –Personal GI (5i.vii)].
2) [278] Personal therapy.
month experience of imagery and expressive arts. That your Commented [BD39]: [278] Imagery in personal therapy.
therapist at the same time was doing imagery with you. [MMA – Personal GI (5.i.ix)].
Also, it sounds like your whole life you've been an image
kind of person. You have vivid images when you close your
eyes.

[280] A: Yeah.
3) [281-282] 10 Month Shamanic Commented [BD40]: 16-month Shamanic training. [MMA -
Q: And then finally the shamanic training, where Shamanism (5.t)].
Journeying.
imagery was the cornerstone of the experience of journey-,
of journeying.

[283] A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Anything else you want to add to that? Or…

14
[285] A: Um, I mean, I love like Tarot cards and [285-296] Divination, pulling cards. Commented [BD41]: [285-296] Divination (cards) [MMA
Goddess cards and, um, I mean, that's another piece of Associating to images from a variety of – Divination (5.d)].
imagery for me is working with that type of stuff. decks (i.e. Tarot cards, Goddess Cards).

Q: How does that fit together for you?

[288] A: Um, which pieces?

Q: The use of Tarot cards and Goddess cards as part of

an imagery experience.

[290] A: Um, well I have, in my shamanic training, I [290] She has journeyed to cards— Commented [BD42]: [290] Journeys to cards. [MMA – GI
–Personal GI (5.i.ix)].
have journeyed to cards.

Q: To cards.

[292] A: Yeah. So, I mean, to Goddesses in particular. [292-293]—‘to goddesses in particular. Commented [BD43]: [292-293] Journeys to goddess cards.
Images from cards show up in her [MMA – GI –Personal GI (5.i.ix)].
Um...yeah. And I mean, I think like imagines from cards
show up for me in journeying or imagery experiences. imaginal experiences.

Q: Um-hum.

[295] A: Um, yeah.

Q: Okay. So, you can have an intention, maybe even

precipitated by a card.

[297] A: Um-hum.

Q: Or you want to speak to a specific Goddess, but then

that would be the luck of the draw that day?
[298-299] Which Goddess she speaks Commented [BD44]: [298-299] Goddess journeys are luck
with might be luck of the draw on a of the draw.[IIIV –Spontaneously Arising Imagery (4.i)].
[299] A: Um, yeah. Yeah.
particular day.
Q: And then so you have an intention going in. Does it
still feel like it's very intentful when you're in, or does it
become collaborative? Or what's it like?

[302] A: Hmm...

Q: When you go in with an intention?

[304] A: Um...I mean, I feel—I'm – I'm not sure

exactly what you're getting at, but I, um, I feel like going—
because I—I can often feel like bombarded by imagery.

15
Q: Um-hum.

[307] A: So having an intention is really helpful for [307-308] Intention helps her in her Commented [BD45]: [307-308] Setting intention organizes
inner experiences because she can feel and contains mental imagery. [MMA – Guided Imagery –
me and having a like this is the entity or the person or Foresight (5.i.vi); PM – Induction (6.b)].-
whatever I want to interact with, this can be really helpful to bombarded and overwhelmed by mental
narrow. imagery. It is helpful to narrow with
intention (specific entities, persons,
Q: Yes. I get it. gods).

[310] A: Yeah.

Q: In my research, I'm differentiating really directed

imagery versus non-directed imagery.

[311] A: Yeah.

Q: And there's are some schools of thought that think

that the therapist should forcefully intervene. And say
thinks like “Get et rid of that monster image and put a box
of chocolate there instead and tell me what happens. They
tell the client exactly what to do.

[316] A: Yeah.

Q: And there are other schools that are like radically

permissive. Like close your eyes, tell me whatever happens
for you.

[319] A: Um-hum.

Q: What do you want to do?

[321] A: Yeah.

Q: That kind of thing. So, I'm trying to get a feel of

what your style is.

[323] A: Um-hum. I mean, I would say what I like the
most is – is the shamanic structure and the journey that I
told you about is actually really the only one I can think of
where there was ever like a prompt within the journey.
Q: I see.
[326] A: There's typically an intention but then it's
like whatever happens with that intention. I mean, that's the
[323-324] She prefers the shamanic
structure and the journey most.
Shamanic journeying does prompt but it
is also quite open.
[326-327] There is a starting intention
but then what happens with the intention
is open
Commented [BD46]: [323-324] Preferred shamanic
structure has prompts but is open. [MMA – Shamanism
(5.t), GI –Combo Directed/Non-Directed (5.i.i)].
Commented [BD47]: [326-327] Initial intension but open
inner experience.

16
only one I can think of where, within the experience, it's do
this, this and this. Do you know what I mean?

Q: Is it a surprise when you get there, into the inner

space?

[329] A: Oh, always. For sure. I mean, I like—even [329-330] The inner space is always a Commented [BD48]: [392-330] Inner space and events in it
surprise. It’s never like she things it’s are a constant surprise. [IIIV – Spontaneously Arising
with that one, I was like, it's going to be like this. No. It's Imagery (4.i)].
never like what I think it's going to be. going to be.

Q: Huh.

[332] A: So…

Q: There's a surrender involved, it sounds like.

[334] A: Yeah. Well, and I don't know if this is useful [334-335] Journeying on behalf of other Commented [BD49]: [334-335] Journeying for others.
people. Imagery for others. Imagery for others. [MMA – GI – Professional Applications
for me to talk about, but, um, I had such an interesting (5.x)].
experience journeying on behalf of other people.

Q: Uh-huh. Wow. That is interesting.

[337] A: Um, the journeys look different. Like I know [337-341] When she images for others Commented [BD50]: [337-341] Qualitatively different
its completely different than when she experience journeying for others.
that it's a journey for someone else. And journeying for
someone else, like for example, Kim and I would journey, journeys for herself.
and still do, journey for each other a lot. And we know each
other really well and, um, so again, like I can tell what's her
world and, um, it's really cool. It's—that surprised me,
because I thought like, oh, this is my imagery experience,
this is how it will be. But like when I'm doing it for
someone else, it's totally different.

Q: Like another world —

[343] A: Yeah.

Q: — as you were talking about it.

[345] A: Yeah.

Q: And you can tell.

[347] A: I can tell, yeah.

17
Q: Can you just maybe, in a couple, few sentences, say
how you tell?

[349] A: Um, so...I – I mean, like I said, have very [349-350] When Journeying for others Commented [BD51]: [349-360] For others, imagery is vivid
vivid visual experience, but journeying for someone else is it’s so vivid its almost cartoon-like and and cartoon-like.

like actually even more vivid to where it's – it's like almost it’s in high definition.
like cartoon-y and it's like high-definition.

Q: Huh.

[352] A: Um, and it's – it's clearer.

[352] The experience and the Commented [BD52]: [352] Images for others clearer and
understanding is clearer. easier to understand than for self.
Q: Wow.

[354] A: Yeah. Um…

Q: What do you make of that?

[356] A: I think it's a little bit easier to get guidance [356] “It is easier to trust guidance for Commented [BD53]: [356] Easier to trust imagery guidance

for somebody else. I think it's easier to trust that. someone else.” for others.

Q: Yeah. That reminds me like we can always see the

solutions to other people's problems—what they are doing
wrong, what needs to happen but its so difficult to see our
own. [00:27:03], client comes in, you see what's wrong.

[359] A: Yeah.

Q: You know what's going on. You can't just say what's
wrong.

[361] A: Yeah.

Q: You have to be patient and let the person come to an

awareness of what's wrong. But like you're saying, it's just
so clear and vivid, the other world.

[364] A: Yeah.

Q: Does it feel like that at all? Like how we can see

other people's —

[366] A: Oh, absolutely.

Q: — problems so clearly?

18
[368] A: And I'll get very like concrete, um, [368] Concrete suggestions for other Commented [BD54]: [368] Imagery for others provides
suggestions. people. concrete suggestions.

Q: Hmm.

[370] A: You know, it'll be like this person needs to [370-371] Very detailed suggestions for Commented [BD55]: [370-371] Imagery for self is more
others. Specific steps. In her own oblique. Requires consideration and time to evolve. Self-
do this, this, this and this. And that never happens in my imagery never offers concrete imperatives.[MMA – GI –
journeys. Um, it's always like here's a sentence and a theme journeys its more oblique. She may get Personal Imagery (5.i.ix]).
and like, just let that roll around. It's never like here's what's a sentence and then play with it for a
should happen. time and let it evolve. It is never a direct
concrete statement about what should
Q: Yeah. happen.

[373] A: But that's what would happen when I would

journey for other people.

Q: Right.

[375] A: And another piece that was really interesting [375] Soul retrieval. Commented [BD56]: [375] Soul Retrieval [spiritual
healing]. [H – Spiritual Healing (3.e)].
is we did a lot of, uh, what's called soul retrieval.

Q: Uh-huh.

[377] A: Um, I don't know if that's helpful for me to

define that or —

Q: Yeah. Define it if you would.

[379] A: So, according to shamanism, there's this idea
that when there's a trauma of any kind, from like I got stung
by a bee to the most horrific thing you can imagine, then a
part of your soul fragments off and a shaman can journey to
retrieve that part and reconnect you with that part.
[379-381] In Shamanism trauma is Commented [BD57]: [379-381] Soul loss occurs through
trauma. Shaman Journeys to reconnected lost fragments of
thought to fragment off part of a
soul. [H – Spiritual Healing (3.e)].
person’s soul and a Shaman can journey
into the imaginal to retrieve it and
reconnect a person with that part.

Q: Ah…

[383] A: So beautiful. So, I had a lot of those done on

[383-385] Beautiful personal Commented [BD58]: [383-385] Beautiful to receive but
me and did a lot of them for other people and what would emotionally difficult to provide and witness other’s trauma.
experiences with soul-retrieval. [384] I
happen to me when I did them for other people—which
would see the trauma they experienced
made me not want to do it for other people—is I would see
and it was painful.
the trauma that had like happened to them and would see
them going through it. And that was really hard.

Q: That sounds hard.

19
[387] A: Yeah.

Q: Especially because I know you've experienced

images very, very vividly.

[389] A: Yeah.

Q: I think I've called you a super imager before. Do you

remember that?

[391] A: I think so.

Q: There's research that talks about like super imagers

that have just like very real seeming imagery experiences.

[393] A: Yeah. It's—I can't—it's so interesting. I only

know my own experience. I can't imagine it like not being
like that for other people.

Q: I know. And isn't it sad when people tell you they

don't see anything.

[396]] A: Yeah. Or when people say they don't dream.

I'm like, oh.

Q: Right. I'll tell you about like some early research

like in the mid-nineteenth century, a guy did some research
on scientists who had no imagery versus like children or
creative types. And the – the scientists were bewildered
even what he was asking questions about it. And it test was
like imagine your breakfast table and tell me what's there.
You know. And they kind of couldn't do it. So it seems like
there are some people who can. Just like there are some
people who can do math. And some people who can't.

[402] A: Yeah.

Q: It's an interesting —

[404] A: Yeah. So interesting.

Q: Um, I'm going to move on to the next question.

[406] A: Yeah.

20
Q: So, in your own words, can you describe what
happens immediately before, during and after a guided
imagery experience.

[409] A: Hmm...um…

Q: And by guided imagery, I'm just going to include

shamanism, because —

[411] A: Yeah.

Q: — they seem very parallel, um, or using the same

kind of, um, psycho-spiritual technologies.

[413] A: Um…

Q: If that makes sense.

[415] A: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean—it's a little easier

for me to access that because it's more recent.

Q: Right.
Foresight
[417] A: IHH feels so long ago. But, um, so before, I
mean, in the shamanic framework, before is potentially 1) [417] Setting intention. Commented [BD59]: [417] FORESIGHT Setting Intention.
2) [418] Getting comfortable (eye [MMA – GI –Foresight (5.i.vi)].
setting the intention, um, getting comfortable. I know for
me, that's really important. Like, I like need an eye mask, mask, laying down, drumming) Commented [BD60]: [418] Lay supine, eye-mask,
drumming. [PM – Induction (6.b)].
um, I need to like, um, usually be laying down unless I'm [432] feels exciting.
3) [444] A beginning place [SAFE Commented [BD61]: [444] SAFE SPACE – beginning
really tired. That's not going to work for me because I fall place. [PM – Safe Space (6.f)].
asleep. Um, so the preparation of, um, getting into a relaxed SPACE].
state. With journeying, there's a drum — 4) [445-446] One of three worlds a) Commented [BD62]: [445-446] Three worlds: upper, lower,
upper, b) lower, c) middle. middle. [PM –Archetypal Realm (6.c.iii)]; MMA – GI -
Insight (5.i.iv)].
Q: Right.

[422] A: — going, um, which feels really now

important for me to—it just—that turns on the neural
pathways in my brain to know that I'm going to journey.

Q: Yes.

[425] A: Um, during—you mean what's happening in

– in the imagery experience or just like if someone were to
be seeing me?

Q: I'm going to say less of the content, because you

already described some of the content to me, but so there's

21
the beginning, it's dropping and settling, lying down, drum,
eye patch. Inside how is it qualitatively different than that
preparation?

[430] A: Um…

Q: If it is.

[432] A: I think, I mean, one thing that definitely

happens for me is I get kind of excited.

Q: Okay.

[434] A: I'm like, ohhhh...um, yeah. Is that what

you're asking kind of?

Q: Yeah. It's really hard not to impose my

interpretations right now. So, I really have to stay in the seat
of just asking.

[436] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, I'm going to imagine that the prelude is

different than the journey, because the journey is a—the
journey is a different experience.

[439] A: Um-hum.

Q: And —

[441] A: Yeah.

Q: — I would just invite you for a few more words

just to say what that difference is like from getting ready to
go on the journey and going on the journey itself.

[444] A: Hmm...um...I mean, in terms of what's Commented [BD63]: [444-445] Beginning Point – Safe
[444-445] Beginning point.
happening imagery-wise, for me there's always like a Space. [PM – Safe Place/Space (6.f)].
beginning point, there's a place that I always imagine
myself as the start and a way that I either go down into the
lower world or go up into the upper world.

Q: Um-hum.

22
[448] A: So there's – there's a grounding image of like [448] A grounding image at the Commented [BD64]: [448] Grounding Image – Safe Space.
the beginning of a journey. beginning of the journey. [PM – Safe Place/Space (6.f)].

Q: Can you say what that is for you?

[450] A: Yeah. So it's, uh, the top of this cliff in the
snow at night, um, that's the opening to a cave and then if
I'm going down I take sort of a tunnel down into the cave.
Or, um, if I'm going up, it's usually a hot air balloon.
[450-451] The top of a cliff in the snow
at night. That is where there is an
opening to a cave. I follow a tunnel
down or take a hot air balloon up.
Commented [BD65]: [450-451] SAFE SPACE: Top of cliff
in snow at night near a cave-opening. Follows a tunnel down
or takes a hot air-balloon up. [PM – Safe Place/Space (6.f)].

Q: No, okay. That makes sense. Um, and these are

pretty consistent starting points for you?

[453] A: Yeah.

Q: And then after the – the beginning place and the

access point, then it's different every time? Same every
time?

[455] A: Um, typically I interact with a guide. I mean, [455] INNER ADVISOR. Typically Commented [BD66]: [455] INNER ADVISOR: BAT [PM
interact with her main guide which is a – Inner Advisor – Theriomorphic (6.d.xiii)].
my main guide that I've worked with is a bat. So —
bat.
Q: Like bat, flapping bat?

[457] A: Um-hum.

Q: Okay.

[459] A: Yeah. So, usually he comes to greet me, you

[459-460] Bat comes to greet her. She Commented [BD67]: [459-460] Greeted by Bat who is “so
know, either in the lower world or the upper world and I tell great!” he is Male, [468] furry and brown. [PQIA – Male
tells him what she wants to do and then
him, you know, what I'm wanting to do and we go do it. (2.bb); PM – Inner Advisor – Theriomorphic (6.d.xiii)].
they go do it.
“Bat is so great!” He is a male. He is a
Q: I want to know about that. Because that's actually
furry brown bat.
my next question.

[462] A: Ohhh…

Q: Um, the next question is how would you describe

your inner adviser or advisers?

[464] A: Oh…

Q: So, tell me all about Bat.

[466] A: Oh, he's so great. Um, let's see.

23
Q: He's a he?

[468] A: Yeah. Yeah. And he's like a furry, like a [468] Furry brown bat.
brown bat. Not like a Batman kind of bat.

Q: Right.

[470] A: Um, yeah. We just have such a sweet [470] We have a sweet relationship. Commented [BD68]: [470] Advisor relationship with
respondent is sweet [PQIA – Objective/Autonomous (2.ff),
relationship. Um, the first time I met Bat — Mutual Care/Respect/Regard (2.dd)].

Q: Yeah.

[472] A: — was I went to have a session with my,

who's now my shamanic teacher, to see if that felt like the
right fit, um, for me to do the training. And she led me
through my first journey, which was to find a power animal,
a spirit guide. And I went down into this cave and I felt like
this furry presence behind me and I was like, are you an
owl? Like you can't be an owl. That's so cliché. Am I going
to have an owl spirit animal. That's what everyone has. And
he was like, on, I'm Bat. And I was like, oh, okay. Um, and,
yeah, I mean, often—like just—the feeling is like he just
like is so protective and just loves me so much. Um, and
usually like I will get really small and like ride on his back.
Um —
[472-477] Shamanic teacher led her Commented [BD69]: [472-477] Bat is protective and
through her first journey to find a spirit loving. Shifts size.[PQIA –Protective (2.kk), Loving (2.z)].
guide. She went into a cave and felt a
furry presence behind her. She was
worried it was going to be an owl which
seemed cliché. It was a bat which she
liked.
He is protective. He loves her so much.
[477] She becomes small and rides on
his back.

Q: Wow.

[479] A: Or he'll get really big, you know, so that we [479] Or he gets big and they move
can more through the world in that way. Um — through the world that way.

Q: And he communicates with you?

[481] A: Um-hum. Yeah. [480-481] He communicates with her. Commented [BD70]: [480-481] Bat is communicative.
[PQIA – Communicative (2.f)].

Q: And is it just in that way of knowing.

A: Yeah. I mean there – there typically will be sort of

sentences or phrases or messages, um, that emerge.
[483] Short sentences or phrases or Commented [BD71]: [483] Bat communicates through short
messages that emerge. sentences, phrases, or messages. PQIA – Communicative –
Q: Um-hum. Linguistic (2.f.iv)].

[485] A: Um, but, yeah. He – he just feels very

[485] He feels comforting. He knows Commented [BD72]: [485] Bat is comforting and knows
comforting and like he just knows me really, really well. respondent well. PQIA – Assuring/Re-Assuring (2.a),
me well.
Um… Knowledgeable (2.x)].

24
Q: You've said, um, sweet to characterize the [486-487] Sweet and very [476-477], Commented [BD73]: [486-487] Bat is Sweet. [476-477],
relationship, it's the sweetest relationship. [487-488] loving. [487-488] Bat is loving. [PQIA – Kind (2.w), Loving (2.z),
Warm (2.ww)].

[487] A: Right.

Q: And very loving.

[489] A: Yeah.

Q: And, um, knowledgeable —

[491] A: Yeah. [490-491] Knowledgeable. Commented [BD74]: [490-491] Bat is knowledgeable.

[PQIA – Knowledgeable (2.x)].

Q: — about you, knows you really well. What other

qualities do you—are you aware of in Bat?

[493] A: Hmm...um...I feel he's, like I said. He's very
trustworthy, um...yeah. I mean, I've – I've worked with a lot
of other animals too, but it's like he's always there and he –
he seems to be in really good relationship with other
animals and, you know, know which other entities I'm
needing.
[493-495] Bat seems very trustworthy.
He is always there and he seems to have
good relationships with other animals
and other entities I need.
Commented [BD75]: [493-495] Bat is trustworthy,
consistent, and relates well to other advisors. PQIA –
Trustworthy (2.tt), Collaborative (2.e) ].

Q: Oh…

[497] A: Um...yeah.

Q: Um, are you aware of that right now?

[498-499] Can feel advisor in the Commented [BD76]: [498-499] Aware of Bat any time
outerworld if tunes in. respondent tunes in.
[499] A: Um, yeah. Always.

Q: Uh-huh.

[501] A: Always. Yeah.

Q: Thank you.

[503] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, and – and I think you've already answered this,

how you characterized the relationship as one of deep trust
— [504-506] Deep trust. Commented [BD77]: [504-506] Deep trust between
504-506] Deep trust, [507-508] Loving, respondent and Bat. [PQIA – Trustworthy (2.tt)].
[506] A: Yeah. Caring. [510] He is comfortable with the
dark side when things are hard or scary

25
Q: — loving, um, uh, guiding. He knows what other
people, animals, um, forces to connect you with.
[507-508] Bat is Loving and guiding. Commented [BD78]: [507-508] Bat is loving and guiding.
[PQIA – Loving (2.z), Guidance (2.r)].
[508] A: Um-hum.

Q: Um, and he's a comfort. [509-510] Bat is a comfort. Commented [BD79]: [509-510] Bat is comforting. [PQIA –
Assuring/Re-Assuring (2.a)].

[510] A: Yeah. Yeah, and he—I think he, um, he's [510] Not afraid of dark, scary things.
Commented [BD80]: [510] Bat is brave and unafraid.
like down with things being like dark and hard and scary. [PQIA – Willing to Face Difficult/Dark/Scary (2.xx)].
But that's okay.

Q: Right.

[512] A: You know. That that's in service to healing [512] It is in the service of healing and Commented [BD81]: [512] Bat is in the service of healing
transformation. and transformation. [PQIA – healing (2.s); PT –Identity
and transformation. Transformation (7.e)].

Q: Huh. He's not afraid of the dark?

[514] A: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Q: Um, yeah. Anything else you want to say about Bat

or do you want to go on to the next?

[516] A: Um…

Q: I want to say to the recorder that when you said Bat

—

[518] A: Yeah.
[519-520] Self-hug when she said “bat.” Commented [BD82]: Thinking of Bat, respondent hugs self.
Q: You kind of did this almost self hug.

[520] A: Yeah.

Q: And you beamed. You smiled really brightly and

your eyes looked up at the ceiling and, um, like – like a
surprise just happened almost. That was delightful.
[523] Bat makes her very happy. Commented [BD83]: [523] Bat makes respondent happy.
[523] A: Yeah. He's great. He makes me very happy. [SEI –Bliss/Joy (8.b)].

Q: And see, it shows.

[525] A: Yeah. Yeah. And I think just knowing about [525-526] Bats navigate the world by Commented [BD84]: [525-526] Bat navigates the world by
bats and how bats navigate things, um, is also such a cool the sound of their own voice. the sound of his own voice. [PQIA – Confident (2.g)].
part of it, you know, like they, um, navigate the world by

26
the sound of their own voice, you know, it's not about
seeing.

Q: Uh-huh.

[528] A: It's about a whole other way of...seeing.

Q: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think like only dolphins and

bats do that.

[530] A: Um-hum.

Q: Echo locate.

[532] A: Yeah.

Q: Huh.

[534] A: Yeah.

Q: Finding—seeing the world through your own voice.

[536] A: Um-hum.

Q: That's kind of a powerful sentence.

[538-539] Bats have reputation of being Commented [BD85]: [538-539] Bat is beautiful and
[538] A: Yeah. And I also like that bats, like, I think magical. [PQIA – Beautiful (2.c), Magical (2.aa)].
scary or gross but they are beautiful and
sort of have a bad reputation as like scary and gross, um, but
magical.
they're so beautiful and magical.

Q: I would have to agree.

[541] A: Yeah. Good.

Q: Um, thank you for that.

[543] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, so how about in your own words, if you'd

please describe your understanding of the relationship
between your inner, imaginative experiences and your outer
world life. How do they go together?

[546] A: The – the difference?

27
Q: Or, no. How are they related. The things that go on
inside, how they relate to the outer world for you. Or how
does your outer world life affect your inner world life there
too, I guess, um. What's the relationship. And I guess
implied in that is what's the meaning of these things for you
in your life?

[550] A: Um-hum. Well, I think when I am, maybe
not even necessarily struggling, but wondering about
something or worried about something, I often go to the
inner world for guidance or comfort or reassurance or, um, I
think that connects to the spiritual piece. It's like that the
place that I go for that context and that support.
Q: Inside.
[550-552] If I’m worried or need
support I go to the inner world for
guidance comfort or reassurance. This
connects to the [552] spiritual piece.
[552] Goes inside for context and
support.
Commented [BD86]: [550-552] Goes to inner world for
Bat’s guidance, comfort, or reassurance. Going inward is a
Spiritual experience. [PM – Inner World (6.c); PQIA –
Guidance (2.r), Assuring/Re-assuring (2a); SEI – Mitigates
Stress -Receive Care/Comfort/Soothing (8.zz.i);
Promotes/Deepens Spirituality (8.ddd), Reinforces Spiritual
Beliefs (8.hhh)
Commented [BD87]: [552] Inner-world provides context
and support.

[554] A: Um-hum. [553-558] Outer and inner are Commented [BD88]: [553-558] Inner and outer worlds
connected. connected. [Metaxy] [M –Connects Inner/Outer (1c)].

Q: Um…

[556] A: One of the places.

Q: Uh-huh. So, like they're connected.

[558] A: Yeah.

Q: The inner world and the outer world for you.

[560] A: Um-hum.
[561-562] If troubled or need Commented [BD89]: [561-562] If troubled in outerworld
consolation or hope will go in. life will go inward brings soothing to outerworld. [SEI –
Q: If you're troubled or just need consolation or hope, Increase Hopefulness (8.nn); M – (1.c)].
you'll go in.

[562] A: Um-hum.
[563-564]. It has much to do with what Commented [BD90]: [563-564] Inner imagery has much to
is going on in her outerworld life. do with outerworld life. [Inner and outer connected]. [M –
Q: And it has much to do with what was going on in Connects Inner/Outer (1c)].
your outer world life?

[564] A: Yeah.

Q: Do you get information that you use in your outer [565-566] Gets information in the inner Commented [BD91]: [565-566] Inner world provides
world life ever? world for outerworld application. information applied in outerworld. [M –Connects
Inner/Outer (1c)].
[566] A: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. For sure. Yeah.

28
Q: Can you say just a little bit more about that?

[568] A: Um...yeah, I mean, I think it's helped me [568] It helps her make decisions. Commented [BD92]: [568] Inner experience/ Inner advisor
Takes imagery experiences to therapy. (Bat) helps with decision making. Images inform personal
make decisions. It's helped me figure out what's needing therapy. [SEI – Enhances Problem Solving (8.r)].
attention, um…

Q: Hmm.

[570] A: It's helped me open—I think. Here's another [570] It has helped her open. Commented [BD93]: [570] Imagery experiences helped her
to open. [SEI –(8.dd)].
place too that I think is really an important connection is.
For me, having an imagery experience, whether in
shamanism or any other way, is I take it to therapy the way I [571-572] Working the image in Commented [BD94]: [571-572] Works the image in
therapy. therapy. [MMA – Continue Working Image in Outerworld
would take a dream. (5.b)].

Q: Uh-huh.

[574] A: So, we sort of dissect and say like, what's
happening? And what part of you is this and that. And so it's
– it's not necessarily the—just the experience in and of
itself, it's like, um, how I work with it after, you know, like
—
[574-575] Getting more from the image
by being with the image and thinking
about the image and talking about the
image.
Commented [BD95]: [574-575] Gets more from the image
by being with, thinking about, and talking about the image.
[working the image for more insight, meaning,
understanding]. [MMA – Continue Working Image in
Outerworld (5.b)]; SEI – Creates/Discloses Meaning (8.d)].

Q: Yeah.

[577] A: — it evolves by re-examining it. [577] Image evolves when she continues Commented [BD96]: [575] Images evolve when worked in
to work with it in the outerworld. the outerworld.

Q: Working the image.

[579] A: Yeah.

Q: Kind of getting more from the image by being with

the image and thinking about the image and talking about
the image, it reveals more.

[582] A: Yeah. Yeah.

Q: Yeah.

[584] A: I mean, I just—I don't know, just as a

example, would that be helpful?

Q: Yeah. Examples are always beautiful.

[586] A: I think when we were in the west, in the
shamanic training and I was having a really hard time, I,
um, I – I felt like I couldn't journey, because what happened
[586-591] When in the West on the
medicine wheel in Shamanic training
Commented [BD97]: [586-591] At first ego judged she was
doing shamanic journey incorrectly. Realized soothing,
unexciting images exactly what was truly needed. [Separate
/Autonomous/ non-egoic] [PQIA – Objective/Autonamous
(2.ff); MME – Shamanism (5.t)].

29
every time, um, for a chunk of time in there was that I
would go to journey and all I would see was being in this
really cozy bed with all my spirit animals just like tucking
me in. That's what happened every time. And, so then, you
know, talking about that with my teacher and my therapist,
you know, this was just like really needing like comfort and
rest and that, you know, it didn't have to be like this intense
imagery experience. It was like just this comfort.
Q: Uh-huh. That itself ends up being a very powerful
image.
[593] A: Yeah.
she felt she was unable to journey.
Every time she tried all she would see
was being in a cozy bed with all her
spirit animals as if they were tucking her
in. Talked about it with teacher and her
therapist. This is what she was needing
rest and comfort. It didn’t have to be
some intense adventure. It was what it
was.
[590-591] Commented [BD98]: [590] Needing comforting. [594-595]
[594-595] Needing comfort and Receiving comforting. [SEI – Mitigates Stress -Receive
Care/Comfort/Soothing (8.zz.i)].
receiving comfort.

Q: Comfort. Needing comfort. Receiving comfort.

[594] A: Yeah.

Q: And it happens so much you thought it doesn't work.

[597] A: Yeah. I was annoyed. I was like, oh, why

can't I journey. Um, but I was journeying. Just not like I
normally did. [598-599] It was beyond the ego’s Commented [BD99]: [598-599] Imagery is beyond the
control. She was annoyed she “wasn’t ego’s control. [SEI – Recognize Ego Limitations (8.fff)].

Q: Yeah, that's again outside the ego's control. journeying.”

[599] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, thanks for the examples. Examples always –

always make it clear. Um, so thank you.

[601] A: Yeah.

Q: Move on to the next question?

[603] A: Yes.

Q: And the next question is if you had to describe what

Bat means to you—maybe you've already answered this.
What would you say? What's Bat mean to you?

[606] A: Um...wow. Um...I think he's – he's just this
representation of a deep knowing that I'm guided and
protected always. Um, and I can go to him for guidance and
comfort and I just – just know that he's always there.
[606-607] Bat is a representation of a Commented [BD100]: [606-607] Bat represents a deep
deep knowing that I’m guided and knowing respondent is guided and protected always. Knows
Bat is always there. [PQIA – Knowledgeable (2.x), Wise
protected always. I can go to him for (2.zz), Protective (2.kk)].

30
Q: Hmm. Yeah. That's very beautiful. guidance and comfort I know he is
always there.
[609] A: Yeah.

Q: There's that Sinéad O'Connor song, she says I have

a healing space inside me, where spirit comes and guides
me. And that's kind of what you talk about. And you know
that you're guided, you're protected, you're not alone.

[612] A: Yeah.

Q: He means you're not alone and that you're safe.

[614] A: Yeah.

Q: Huh. That's really beautiful.

[616] A: Yeah. I mean it was so cool to discover this [616] It was cool to discover a crew of Commented [BD101]: [616] Discovered a crew of inner

whole crew I think I've always had. I just didn't know they inner supports I didn’t know were there. supports [Inner Chorus] respondent did not know was there.
[PM –Inner Advisor – Inner Chorus (6.d.viii)].
were there.

Q: Uh-huh. I want to note that to my right on the table

are some talismans, little figures of bats made of different [517-519] There are several Bat Commented [BD102]: [517-519] Bat talismans in
talismans in her office. respondent’s office. [M – Links Spiritual/Physical Worlds
material. (1.g)].

[619] A: Yeah.

Q: So, there's the representation that you keep in the

concrete sense in the outer world of Bat too.
[621-622] External representations are Commented [BD103]: [621-622] External representations
[621] A: Yeah. That feels like a very important of inner reality are important to respondent. They ground
important to her. Likes to ground
connection for me is to have, um, external representations. imagery through drawing and painting in the outerworld. [M
imagery with drawings, paintings. - Connects Inner/Outer (1.c); MMA Expressive Arts (5.h),
When I did imagery, um, like guided imagery specific type
Continue Working Image in Outerworld (5.b)].
work, um, drawing it, painting it, was really important.
Yeah. I still have, up on my wall, the very first day of IHH,
you led us through an imagery exercise where we, um,
created an image of ourselves as healers.
[623-630] Drew image of herself as a Commented [BD104]: [623-630] At IHH respondent drew
healer and it was a window, that helped imager of herself as a healer [Expressive Arts]—a window
Q: Yeah. that helped people see more clearly. [MMA Expressive Arts
people to see more clearly. (5.h)].

[626] A: And mine was a window and I – I—we drew

it right after and it's still hanging up in my room.

Q: Oh, that's cool.

31
[628] A: Yeah.

Q: Huh. What did that mean, a window?

[630] A: I think for me it felt like me as a healer is

helping people see things more clearly.

Q: Oh, yeah. Great. Thank you. Um, this – this shifts

focus a little bit now more to kind of your identity,
practitioner identity.

[633] A: Okay.

Q: And so, how would you describe yourself as a

person?

[636] A: As a person?

Q: Yeah.

[637] A: What – what —

Q: Why would you do that?

[639] A: What do you mean as a person?

Q: This smacks of a job interview sort of thing.

Describe yourself as a person. I mean, what do you think
are your qualities that you—what do you like about
yourself, I guess, or what – what's good to know about Liz,
um, as a person in the world.

[634] A: Wow. Um, I think I am very hard working

[643-648] I am hard working, grounded, Commented [BD105]: [643-648] Respondent describes self
and grounded, um, I think I'm really loyal. I think I'm a – a,
loyal. I’m a good friend, daughter and as: hard working, grounded, loyal. A good friend, daughter
you know, I'm – I'm—I think I'm good relationally and a and partner. A good colleague. Relationships are important
partner and colleague. Relationships are to respondent. Respondent is passionate; excited by life and
good friend and daughter and partner and colleague and,
important to me. I’m passionate and experiences. Respondent is “silly”, playful and childlike.
you know, relationships are really important to me. Um, I –
excited about things and experiences.
I'm—it's really important to me to feel passionate and, um,
I’m silly. I’m playful and childlike.
be interested in a lot of things and be excited about a lot of
things and having different experiences. Um...I think I'm
really silly. Um, and I like to be playful like a little kid and
be mischievous as well. Um, there's a whole bunch of like
not so great qualities as well too.

Q: But everyone's got that too.

32
[650] A: Um, I'm very introverted. [650] I’m introverted. I like time by Commented [BD106]: [650] Respondent describes self as
myself and get overstimulated easily. introverted.

Q: Um-hum.

[652] A: Um, I like a lot of time by myself, um, I get

overstimulated easily.

Q: Hmm.

[654] A: Um, I – I can't handle small talk, so that like [654] I hate small talk. Commented [BD107]: [654] Hates small talk.
makes it hard navigating things socially, so I'm just like,
ugh, what are we even talking about.

Q: Yeah.

[657] A: Um…

Q: Small talk says it all, doesn't it?

[659] A: Yes.

Q: Small talk.

[661] A: It's the worst. I hate it. I can't even be

bothered.

Q: It's like pleasantries. Want to spend some time

exchanging pleasantries?

[663] A: Oh, it's so gross.

Q: Um, next question.

[665] A: Yeah.

Q: How is your work with, um, I'm going to say your

adviser, Bat, um, impacted the way you see yourself as a
person? How has Bat influenced how you see yourself?

[668] A: Wow. Um, so many different answers to that.

Um…

Q: And the world.

[670] A: What?

33
Q: And the world.

[672] A: Yeah.

Q: How's Bat influenced the way you see yourself and

the world?

[674] A: I think that the word that first popped into

my mind was, um, magic.

Q: Magic.

[676] A: Ah, I think connecting to Bat in particular [676-681] Connecting to bat gave me Commented [BD108]: [676-681] Connecting to bat gave
the sense of how magical the world is respondent a sense that the world is magical, that she is
just gives me the sense of how magical the world and how magical, and that it is OK to be magical. [PT – Recognize
magical I am. And that it's okay to be magical. Um, and and how magical I am. And that its ok Self as Magical (7j), Identity Transformation (7e); SEI –
there's a lot of my identity in with Bat and shamanism to be magical. Increased Self-Love (8.ii), Instills Sense of Wonder (8.uu)]..
where—I mean, I had a really hard time saying yes to the
training because I was like what will people think, and is
this okay, and are people going to think I'm a weirdo. Um,
and it's funny to think about that now, because I'm like, who
cares? And I just so own it, I talk anyone about it who will
listen. And I – I don't feel, um, what I used to feel, like, oh,
I'm weird. You know, it's just like, oh, yeah, this is an
important part of me and you can take it or leave it.

Q: And that's magical?

[683] A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. And weird stripped of shame is magic.

[685] A: That's right.

Q: I love magical.

[687] A: Yeah.

Q: What—in your own words, what would you say

about magical. What is magical?
[689] Magical = meaningful. Commented [BD109]: [689] For respondent, Magical =
[689] A: Um, well, I think a word that goes with it is Meaningful.
meaningful.

Q: Huh.

34
[691] A: You know, it's I think what's so amazing
about imagery and about being a therapist is like everything
has a meaning. Um, and, yeah, they just sort of like
miraculous, unexpected things can happen at any moment.
You know?
[691-692] The amazing thing about
imagery is everything has meaning.
Images are sort of like miraculous. With
imagery unexpected things can happen
at any moment.
Commented [BD110]: [691-692] Imagery is amazing
because each image holds meaning. Images feel miraculous.
Images feel novel; fresh. With imagery, unexpected things
can happen at any time. [SEI – Creates/Discloses Meaning
(8.d),

Q: Yeah. That's a really heartening, um, knowing if

ever you're in a rut, um, I try to remember just to look at
things symbolically.

[695] A: Yeah.

Q: You know, like why is this particular homeless

person like with red crazy hair talking to me now about the
laundry. You know, like what's—and if you sit with it long
enough, you could find information in that as a symbol.

[698] A: Yeah. Yeah.

Q: Is that kind of like the thing you're talking about?

[700] A: Um-hum. And I think that was what was so
amazing for me about my like beginning working with
imagery is I think is because I have such a visual
experience, I was just like, oh, this is just meaningless, like,
[700-703] Working with imagery taught
her florid visual imagery contrary to
being a flitting by of images, was
instead full of meaning. No longer
Commented [BD111]: [700-703] Whereas there was a time
in respondent’s life she viewed images as meaningless
distractions, working with images taught respondent images
are valuable and full of meaning. [SEI – Creates/Discloses
Meaning (8.d.), Increased Awareness (8.gg),].

blah, whatever. And then to work with it in that way it's disregards images.
like, well, yeah, I don't get why there's a duck here but, you
know, let's talk about it. You know, it helped me to not like
disregard any – any image.

Q: Um-hum.

[705] A: But to just make space for it and work with it

and see what might be there.

Q: Um-hum. Yeah. Like hosting it.

[707] A: Yeah.

Q: Yeah. Huh. Thank you. Um, so you've answered

nine already. That question is how do you see yourself
differently now than before you experienced, um, inner
adviser imagery. And you experienced yourself as magical,
you just said.

35
[710] A: Yeah.

Q: And the world is magical. And meaningful.

[712] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, is there anything else you'd want to add to that

about how you see yourself, um, on this side of imagery
practice, as opposed to before imagery practice?

[715] A: Um, I think—I mean, it's so empowering to
feel like I have access to answers and guidance and wisdom.
And then of course I can look outside of me. But a huge
resource is going to be internal. You know.
[715-717] Feels empowered having
discovered an inner source of wisdom
which provides her guidance and
answers.
Commented [BD112]: [715-717] Tapping inner source of
wisdom—guidance and answers disclosed through
imagery—is empowering. [SEI – Taps/Gives Access to
Inner Wisdom (8.rrr); PT – Increased Insight/Understanding
(7.f)].

Q: Yeah. You said earlier everything I need is inside

me.

[718] A: Yeah. Yeah.

Q: That's like something I think we can help everyone

to see we work with. Because there's often a lost quality in
people in therapy, a confusion.

[721] A: Yeah.

Q: Um, and drugs and alcohol, um, sexing, um,

whatever the compulsion in the outer world is a distraction
that keeps them from the everything they need being inside
of them.

[724] A: Right.

Q: Huh. What is it about you that let you know that

about you? That everything you need. I'm curious, because
some people don't find that.

[727] A: Yeah. Um, wow. I don't know. Um, I guess I

just found that it always like led me in the right direction.

Q: Experimentation.

[729] A: Yeah. I mean I think, you know, the two
techniques we're talking about in particular, I think safe
space is so profound because it's—you have the experience
of being able to calm yourself down by just using—I mean,
[729-732] Safe Place is profound. It Commented [BD113]: [729-732] SAFE PLACE is
allows me to calm myself down. profound. By imagining herself in a calm place, respondent
becomes calm. [PM - Safe Place/Space (6.f); IM – Links
Body/Mind (1.f)’ SEI – Grounds and Centers (8.cc)].

36
there's no tool. There's no—nothing. There's just how can I Picturing myself in a calm place calms
picture myself somewhere that makes me feel calm and then me down.
I become calm.

Q: Yeah.

[734] A: You know?

Q: Yeah. I'm going to say that that—knock it out of the

air if it doesn't feel right. That's like scientific method. Like
you tried something —

[737] A: Yeah.

Q: This information came out of it. And you took note

of it and then you tried it again. And then same information
corroborates it. Other people that you may talk to do that
and they talk about it too. So, it's evidence-based.

[740] A: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, I bristle at

that term a little bit.

Q: So do I.

[742] A: But, um, thinking about doing in the hospital,
you're working with people that are hooked up to machines
that are telling you all their vitals. And you're talking them
through an imagery experience and you're watching it, you
know, and like a computer sense, that it's like a system is
settling.
[742-744] You can witness effects of
inner imagery expressed in the
outerworld, especially the body. At the
hospital, people were hooked up to
monitors. You can see their vitals
stabilize in response to imagery.
Commented [BD114]: [742-744] Demonstrable healing
effects of imagery are evident in outerworld. At hospital
respondent watched on monitors patients’ vitals stabilizing in
response to imagery. [IM – Links Body/Mind (1.f); H –
Physical (3.c)]; MME – Guided Imagery – Professional
Applications (5.x)].

Q: Yeah.

[746] A: You know. So, I don't like to navigate the

world in terms of science.

Q: Totally.

[748] A: But, um, if you want numbers and evidence,

I mean.

Q: I just want to say that science kind of has a bad word

feel to it.

[750] A: Yeah.

37
Q: So, I would just say experientially.

[752] A: Yeah.

Q: Instead of scientifically.

[753] A: Yeah.

Q: But that is an important point that you point out, that

the people, like yourself who worked in the hospital, got to
see that machinery —

[557] A: Yeah.

Q: — verify the internal state and the effect. And that,

I think, is a rare experience for imagery practitioners to get
that—have that corroborated in that way.

[760] A: Yeah.

Q: Who aren't working in a hospital when people are

hooked up to respirators and things of that nature.

[762] A: Totally. And I mean even the, you know,
people would fall asleep and the nurses would be like, oh,
he hasn't slept. This is amazing. Or, oh, he's so relaxed after
you come. You know, that was very cool.
Q: Yeah. That was a special thing.
[762-763] Nurses at the hospital would
marvel patients suffering from insomnia
would achieve restful sleep through
imagery, or anxious patients became
deeply relaxed.
Commented [BD115]: [762-763] Nurses at the hospital
marveled that patients with insomnia achieved restful sleep
through imagery; or anxious patients become relaxed by
imagery.

[765] A: Yeah. It sucks that it's not happening

anymore.

Q: Yeah. I know. Um, I think that's all the questions.

The last question—I'm realizing all the questions, it's like a
smear on a page. It's like at first I thought they were
different lines that I've written but it looks now like finger
paint. It's all one smear, they're all connected.

[769] A: Um-hum.

Q: Um, and the last smear, the tail of the smear is if you
had to describe what inner adviser work means to you, what
would you say? I feel like you've answered it over and over
again.

38
[772] A: Yeah.

Q: Do you want to say any last things. I'll put it that

way.

[774] A: Yeah. I mean, just having access to that [774] Inner Advisor work provided Commented [BD116]: [774] Inner Advisor work provided
access to wisdom I didn’t know was access to inner wisdom. [PQIA – Facilitates Self-
wisdom that I didn't know was there and now I do. Knowledge/Self-Understanding (2.k), Illuminating (2.t)].
there. Now I know.
Q: Yeah. Wisdom. What's wisdom versus knowledge
for you.

[776] A: Um...it just—it feels just very ground and old [776] Wisdom gained from inner Commented [BD117]: [776] Inner wisdom feels grounded,
guides, unlike knowledge feels old, and true. [SEI – Taps/Gives Access to Inner Wisdom
and, um, true, you know. (8.rrr), Non-Rational Knowing (8.aaa)].
grounded old and true.
Q: Yeah.

[778] A: It's like it drops beneath all the flurry of [778] Wisdom through imagery drops Commented [BD118]: [778] Wisdom resides beneath the
beneath the flurry of the ego’s anxious ego’s anxious spinning. [SEI – Recognize Ego Limitations
whatever ego-y, mental spinning out, you know. (8.fff)].
spinning.
Q: Um-hum.

[780] A: It's like this is what's true. [780] It reveals essential truth. Commented [BD119]: [780] Imagery reveals essential truth.
[PT – Increased Insight and Understanding (7.f); SEI - Non-
Rational Knowing (8.aaa)].
Q: Just true.

[782] A: Yeah.

Q: Just self-evidently true.

[784] A: Yeah.

Q: Uh-huh.

[786] A: Yeah.

Q: Thank you, Liz.

[788] A: Yeah. Is there anything else that I can talk

about that would be helpful for you in what you need?

Q: You've been incredibly helpful at talking about some

nuances that, um, my first interview didn't quite touch upon.
Um, and I have a suspicious that all the interviews together
are going to give me a sense of the experience in a big
circle.

39
[791] A: Yeah.

Q: I'm going to call it a totality of—at least in my

interviewing.

[793] A: Um-hum.

Q: But, um, you've really touched upon some important

things. And I really appreciate you talking about Bat in
particular, because, um, I feel like it's a very personal
relationship also.

[796] A: Um-hum. Yeah.

Q: And, um, so I just appreciate it.

[798]A: Yay!

Q: Thank you. I'm going to turn off the machine now.

40