BAER Hearing 120817

303
1 STATE OF NEW YORK : COUNTY OF TOMPKINS

2 _______________________________________________
3 IN THE MATTER OF DISCIPLINARY CHARGES AGAINST
4 KAREN BAER
5 PURSUANT TO SECTION 75 OF THE CIVIL SERVICE LAW
6 OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK
7 ________________________________________________
8
9 HELD ON: December 8th, 2017 (continuation)
10 HELD AT: Tompkins County Health Department
Brown Road, Ithaca, New York
11
12 HELD BEFORE: MURRY SOLOMON, Hearing Officer
5264 Westhersfield Road
13 Jamesville, New York 13078
murrysolomon@gmail.com
14
15 FOR TOMPKINS COUNTY:
JOHN MCCANN, ESQ., HANCOCK ESTABROOK
16 1500 AXA Tower I, 100 Madison Street
Syracuse, New York 13202
17 jmccann@hancocklaw.com
18 FOR MS. BAER:
ZOE SALZMAN, ESQ.
19 ANDREW G. CELLI, JR., ESQ.
EMERY CELLI BRINCKERHOFF & ABADY, LLP
20 600 Fifth Avenue, 10th Floor
New York, New York 10020
21 zsalzman@ecbalaw.com
22
REPORTED BY: DELORES HAUBER
23 Shorthand Reporter
Notary Public
24
MICHAEL LANE by MR. CELLI 304
1 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Lane, you're

2 about to undergo cross examination. I'll
3 remind you that you remain under oath.
4 CROSS EXAMINATION BY
5 MR. CELLI:
6 Q Good morning, Mr. Lane.
7 A Good morning.
8 Q I want to direct your attention to the
9 document that we previously marked as Charging
10 Party Exhibit 16.
11 A Yes.
12 Q Number 16 is the e-mail exchange between
13 you and Karen Baer where she let's you know that
14 she is resigning the WDIC?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And you wrote back to her and asked her
17 to explain why, correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q At no time did you write to her and tell
20 her that it was improper for her to resign from
21 the WDIC, correct?
22 A The only exchange I had is what is here
23 on this exhibit.
24 Q Simple question. At no time did you
1 write back to her and direct her to continue with

2 the committee, correct?
3 A I did not.
4 Q And Mr. Mareane never wrote to her and
5 said it's your job, you need to go back and sit
6 on the WDIC, to your knowledge?
7 A Not to my knowledge, but that doesn't
8 mean it didn't happened.
9 Q Well, have you done anything to determine
10 whether or not he made a direction like that?
11 A No.
12 Q And at no time did anybody from the
13 county tell her that if she didn't return to her
14 seat at the WDIC that she would be disciplined
15 for that?
16 A I'm not aware of that happening.
17 Q In fact you never even complained to her
18 about the fact that she resigned, you just asked
19 her to explain why?
20 A Certainly because of the ongoing
21 situation, the allegations that she had made.
22 This was a very sensitive kind of thing and
23 that's why I couched my response to her the way I
24 did.
1 Q I see. So you never complained to her

2 about leaving that committee? Simple yes or no
3 question.
4 MR. MCCANN: Objection, asked and
5 answered.
6 A Complained.
7 HEARING OFFICER: No. Asked and
8 answered. I think I can --
9 Q Let me ask it a different way. At no
10 time did you tell, did you criticize Ms. Baer
11 failing to sit on the WDIC until the charges in
12 this case were proffered, fair enough?
13 A Directly, yes.
14 Q You're familiar with the term progressive
15 discipline, aren't you?
16 A Basically, yes.
17 Q And you know the progressive discipline
18 means that you give people fair warning before
19 you proffer charges against them, correct?
20 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Calls for a
21 legal conclusion.
22 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. I
23 didn't hear you.
24 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Calls for a
1 legal conclusion. The context of this

2 Section 75.
3 HEARING OFFICER: The question was
4 are you aware of progressive discipline. I
5 think we can stipulate that there was no,
6 there was no warning given in this matter.
7 No written, verbal warning. I think that
8 is understood.
9 MR. CELLI: Are you prepared to
10 stipulate to that, Mr. McCann?
11 MR. MCCANN: Yes. On this particular
12 issue?
13 MR. CELLI: On any issue?
14 HEARING OFFICER: Well, on this
15 issue.
16 MR. MCCANN: Progressive discipline,
17 as a matter of law without going through
18 Section 75, a competitive class employee
19 cannot be disciplined.
20 MR. CELLI: I'm not interested in a
21 legal argument. I'd like to question the
22 witness.
23 MR. MCCANN: Well, that's irrelevant.
24 MR. CELLI: Your objection has been
1 heard and we'll wait for a ruling.

2 HEARING OFFICER: Proceed with your
3 questioning. The last question was are you
4 familiar with the theory of progressive
5 discipline. I think the witness said he
6 was familiar with it.
7 Q And you understand, Mr. Lane, as the
8 chair of the legislature that progressive
9 discipline is the policy of Tompkins County,
10 correct? Simple yes or no question.
11 MR. MCCANN: If he can answer yes or
12 no.
13 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry?
14 MR. MCCANN: If he can answer yes or
15 no.
16 MR. CELLI: I object. This is
17 coaching the witness. I'm allowed to cross
18 examine this witness. It's improper for
19 Mr. McCann to be speaking to his witness in
20 the middle of my questioning.
21 HEARING OFFICER: I don't think he
22 was speaking to the witness.
23 MR. CELLI: He was coaching him.
24 MR. MCCANN: I was objecting to your
1 question.
2 MR. CELLI: Just object to the
3 question.
4 A May I expand on my answer?
5 HEARING OFFICER: You may give your
6 answer.
7 MR. CELLI: You will have a lawyer
8 who will ask questions.
9 A My answer is this. For the chair of the
10 legislature or any particular member of the
11 legislature to be involved in disciplinary action
12 is highly unusual. It's normally handled through
13 the county administrator and the department of
14 personnel. So the answer is I'm not aware of,
15 I'm aware of what progressive discipline is, but
16 is it something that the legislature normally
17 does, no.
18 Q I'm asking a simple question, Mr. Lane.
19 Isn't it true that it is the policy of Tompkins
20 County to give an employee progressive discipline
21 before charges are proffered, yes or no?
22 A I believe it is.
23 Q And you know that progressive discipline
24 means giving somebody a warning before the
1 charges are proffered just to be clear?

2 A I'm not sure of that. I can't say I know
3 that for sure.
4 HEARING OFFICER: The document you
5 just handed out, is it in evidence?
6 MR. CELLI: No, it isn't. I would
7 like to lay a foundation for that this
8 morning.
9 Q Mr. Lane, this is a document produced by
10 the commissioner of personnel of Tompkins County,
11 correct?
12 A It says it is.
13 Q Do you have any doubt that that's what it
14 is?
15 A I'm not disputing that. It's something
16 I've never seen before.
17 Q Do you have any doubt that this document
18 reflects the policy of Tompkins County on the
19 issue of progressive discipline?
20 A No.
21 Q And if you turn to, and you see that this
22 document is dated August 9th, 2016, correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And if you turn to page three and ask the
1 question who has the right to progressive

2 discipline and the first category of employees
3 mentioned are competitive class employees,
4 correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And Ms. Baer was a competitive class
7 employee as director of the Office of Human
8 Rights, right?
9 A Yes.
10 MR. MCCANN: Is the document being
11 offered by counsel?
12 HEARING OFFICER: It isn't so far.
13 MR. CELLI: It isn't so far.
14 MR. MCCANN: I'd ask you not to have
15 the witness read from a document until it's
16 in evidence.
17 MR. CELLI: All right. Well, then
18 I'll offer this document into evidence.
19 MR. MCCANN: This witness is not able
20 to identify this document.
21 MR. CELLI: He testified that it
22 reflects the policy of the county. He has
23 no doubt it was produced --
24 HEARING OFFICER: I'll accept it into
1 evidence.
2 MR. CELLI: Thank you.
3 Q If you turn to page four at the bottom of
4 the page, there is a section called counselling,
5 right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And one of the things that it says in the
8 second bullet point is to conduct routine verbal
9 counselling on a real time basis as the need
10 arises, that that is part of progressive
11 discipline, correct?
12 A Apparently if it's part of this document.
13 Q Well, you're not aware of anybody
14 counselling Ms. Baer about the issue of the WDIC
15 resignation, are you?
16 A No.
17 Q That never happened?
18 A I'm not aware of it happening.
19 Q And nobody ever sent a written
20 counselling memo, which is the second bullet
21 point on that page, to Ms. Baer on the issue of
22 her resignation from the WDIC, did they?
23 A Not to my knowledge.
24 Q No one ever developed a performance
1 improvement plan with respect to that issue,

2 correct?
4 MR. CELLI: You can put that to the
5 side. Thank you.
6 HEARING OFFICER: You're done with
7 this document?
8 MR. CELLI: Yes.
9 Q You testified in your direct testimony
10 that Ms. Baer, you learned for the first time in
11 2017 in connection with the Taylor report, that
12 Ms. Baer had resigned from her position on a
13 compliance committee. Do you recall that
14 testimony?
15 A Yes.
16 Q As you sit here today as the chair of the
17 legislature and the charging party in this case,
18 are you aware of any effort at progressive
19 discipline with respect to Ms. Baer and her
20 resignation from the compliance committee?
21 A No.
22 Q There wasn't any, was there?
23 MR. MCCANN: Objection.
1 HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow the

2 question.
3 Q I want to change subjects, Mr. Lane. You
4 know someone by the name of Pat Pryor?
5 A I do.
6 Q And Pat Pryor was a member of the
7 Tompkins County legislature; is that right?
8 A Past member.
9 Q She served for a number of years there,
10 right?
11 A Yes, she did.
12 Q You guys served together?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you're friends?
15 A Friends, acquaintances, colleagues.
16 Q How long did you serve with Miss Pryor?
17 A I believe eight years.
18 Q And would it be fair to say that in the
19 time that you served for eight years with Miss
20 Pryor, she is somebody you held in high regard?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And somebody you liked personally?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And after leaving the legislature Miss
1 Pryor was appointed to the Human Rights

2 Commissioner; is that fair?
3 A Yes, she was.
4 Q And that is a volunteer board that
5 advises the legislature on human rights issues in
6 the county?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It's a very important body, isn't it?
9 A I think it is, yes.
10 Q And when she was appointed, that was
11 something that you supported as a member of the
12 legislature?
13 A I did.
14 Q That's something that you wanted to
15 happen, right?
16 A I did.
17 Q And you learned that at some point she
18 became chair of the commission, correct?
19 A I did.
20 Q That's a very important job, isn't it?
21 A I think it's important, yes.
22 Q Now in 2015 you learned that there were,
23 there was a controversy between Miss Pryor and
24 other members of the commission, did you not?
1 A After the fact.

2 Q When you say after the fact, what do you
3 mean?
4 A After it all had happened I was apprised
5 of it.
6 Q Well, you recall that in August of 2015
7 Pat Pryor resigned from the Human Rights
8 Commission?
9 A I'm aware of that, yes.
10 Q And is that the point in time in which
11 you learned that there had been tensions on the
12 commission between her and other commissioners?
13 A Approximately that time. It may have
14 been just before.
15 Q And to your knowledge Miss Pryor was
16 unhappy about having to resign from that
17 commission, right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q She felt she had been treated unfairly?
20 A Yes.
21 Q She felt that other commissioners had
22 been overly critical of her leadership style,
23 right?
24 A She was, I don't think I can say that,
1 no.
2 Q She complained to you about the fact that
3 she was driven off the commission, right?
4 A She did not complain to me. She informed
5 me.
6 Q She wasn't telling you because she was
7 celebrating that fact, right? She was telling
8 you because she was not happy about that fact; is
9 that fair?
10 A She told many of us.
11 Q When you say many of us, do you mean
12 legislators?
13 A Legislators.
14 Q She told Mr. Stein, right?
15 A I can't tell you that. I don't know.
16 Q Who were the legislators that she told
17 that she was not unhappy about being driven off
18 the commission?
19 A Certainly myself and the vice chair.
20 Q That's Mr. Klein?
21 A Jim Dennis.
22 Q Oh, it was Jim Dennis at the time. And
23 Miss Pryor told you that one of the people
24 responsible for driving her from her position as
1 chair of the commission from her point of view

2 was Karen Baer, right?
3 A No. I didn't say she ever said anybody
4 drove her from her position.
5 Q Fair enough. Would it be fair to say in
6 conversations with you and others, Miss Pryor
7 pointed to Ms. Baer as somebody who was opposed
8 to her continuing as commissioner, chair of the
9 commission?
10 A No.
11 Q Did she mention Ms. Baer at all in
12 connection with her leaving the commission?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What did she say on the subject?
15 A That there was a dispute over a press
16 release.
17 Q And that was a dispute with Ms. Baer,
18 right?
19 A Which included our public information
20 office.
21 Q Right. But the dispute was between Miss
22 Pryor and Ms. Baer over the press release, right?
23 A As I understood it.
24 Q And the commissioners who opposed Miss
1 Pryor continuing as chair, they supported Ms.

2 Baer's point of view on that dispute, correct?
3 A I can't say that for sure. I don't know,
4 I didn't talk with them directly about that at
5 the time.
6 Q But as you sit here today, Mr. Lane, you
7 understand that that is what happened, right?
8 A It would only be second or third hand if
9 that, but there were many, you know, many
10 versions of what happened.
11 Q Understood. It's a simple question and
12 based on all the information --
13 A No. No, it's not a simple question, sir.
14 Q Well, I'll ask the questions and you get
15 to respond.
16 A Well, you're characterizing it as simple
17 and I'm saying it's not a simple question.
18 Q I'm saying you're the chair of the
19 legislature of this county, right?
20 A I am.
21 Q You're the highest elected official in
22 this county?
23 A I am.
24 Q You've had years of experience on the
1 legislature, right?
2 A I have.
3 Q And one of the things that you do as the
4 chair of the legislature is to understand what's
5 going on in county government, right?
6 A I do my best.
7 Q And that's politics and that's
8 government, you would agree?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And one of the things that you have to do
11 in your role as chair of the legislature is
12 figure out what happened if there was a dispute
13 or tensions on one of the many commissions or
14 boards that exist in the county, right?
15 A That's true.
16 Q And in fact in this case you took steps
17 to determine what occurred to cause Pat Pryor to
18 resign from the Human Rights Commission, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And one of the things that occurred was
21 that Ms. Baer and commissioners of color were
22 opposed to her leadership style, right?
23 A There was a dispute in the commission
24 over things as seemingly inconsequential as a
1 press release and being able to hold a meeting I

2 was told.
3 Q Miss Pryor's resignation from the
4 commission was embarrassing to her, right?
5 A Probably.
6 Q It was embarrassing to you, wasn't it, as
7 the head of the county legislature?
8 A No. I wouldn't characterize it as
9 embarrassing.
10 Q Okay. You spoke to Mr. Mareane about
11 Miss Pryor's resignation from the commission,
12 right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And he was unhappy about her departure
15 from the commission, fair to say?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And he was unhappy at Ms. Baer for being
18 involved in being critical of Miss Pryor, right?
19 A No.
20 Q He felt that Ms. Baer should have been
21 apologetic to Miss Pryor?
22 A I was told that.
23 Q And he asked her to apologize, right?
24 A I understand he did.
1 Q And she in fact did make a gesture of

2 apology towards Miss Pryor, correct?
3 A I don't know that.
4 Q You've been told that though, haven't
5 you?
6 A No.
7 Q Never heard that before?
8 A No.
9 Q Did Mr. Mareane tell you that Ms. Baer
10 refused to apologize to Miss Pryor?
11 A I don't think so.
12 Q Let's get number nine.
13 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT F WAS MARKED
14 FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
15 Q Mr. Lane, I place before you what we have
16 marked as Respondent's F. Have you seen this
17 document before?
18 A Let me take a look at it. It's not
19 coming right to memory.
20 Q Of course. Take your time.
21 MR. CELLI: Mr. Hearing Officer, we
22 need to make a change. I only want to mark
23 the first page of this document. I think
24 it was mistakenly attached to some other
1 material. If you would be so kind as to

2 just remove the first page from the rest.
3 We're only going to ask about the first
4 page. So the record is clear Respondent's
5 F is going to be a one-page document.
6 HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to return
7 this to you dated November 20th, 2015.
8 MR. CELLI: I'm sorry for that
9 confusion.
10 A This is a memorandum dated November 20th,
11 2015 regarding delays of appointment. It's
12 directed to the health and human services
13 committee and me as chair of the legislature from
14 Karen Baer.
15 Q And you received this document in your
16 role as a legislator in Tompkins County, right?
17 A I think I did, but I'm not positive I
18 received it.
19 Q Did you receive a letter of complaint on
20 or about November 20th, 2015 from Ms. Baer
21 concerning delays of appointment, retaliation,
22 and hostile work environment?
23 A I believe I did.
24 Q Do you believe this is that document?
1 A Could very well be.

2 MR. CELLI: We offer it in evidence.
3 MR. MCCANN: Objection, relevance.
4 MR. CELLI: The relevance is that
5 this is one of the complaints for which we
6 believe our client was retaliated.
7 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I'll receive
8 it into evidence.
9 Q Going to the third paragraph of Exhibit F
10 you see that Ms. Baer writes, and I quote,
11 "according to Legislator Stein, the sole concern
12 raised by HHS members was the following, because
13 Pat Pryor enjoyed universal respect among her
14 former legislature colleagues there currently
15 exists enormous resentment towards me by
16 legislators for whatever role they perceive I
17 played in the HRC board resolution of no
18 confidence against Pat, an act that subsequently
19 led to her resignation as HRC chair in August of
20 2015," do you see that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You recall that Ms. Baer communicated to
23 you that she was concerned that there was
24 universal, that there was enormous resentment
1 directed at her by legislators in or about this

2 time frame?
3 A This is quoting Legislator Stein and I
4 have no knowledge of that.
5 Q Well, let me ask it a different way.
6 Isn't it true, sir, that in or about this time
7 period there was enormous resentment directed at
8 Ms. Baer for precisely the reason she describes
9 in this memo?
10 A No.
11 Q Was there any resentment directed at her?
12 A I can't speak for the other legislators.
13 I certainly can't speak for Legislator Stein who
14 was chair of HHS.
15 Q How about you?
16 A No.
17 Q You weren't resentful of Ms. Baer at all?
18 A I've never been resentful of Ms. Baer.
19 Q But you understood when you received this
20 memo that that was something that she was
21 complaining about or concerned about; is that
22 fair?
23 A That's fair.
24 Q And a little further down in the document
1 she writes, quote, "likewise I'm not able to

2 understand why the HRC decision to replace its
3 chair has as a result created a hostile work
4 environment for me. For example in the past few
5 months there have been a number of retaliatory
6 measures directed towards me and my office by the
7 administrator and other county actors. Now I
8 believe these demeaning behaviors stem from my
9 refusal to engage in a discriminatory strategy
10 against the HRC. A strategy involving a series
11 of misguided directives I perceived to be based
12 on race, color and sex." Do you see that?
13 A I do.
14 Q By the way, when Ms. Baer refers in that
15 paragraph to the administrator, she is talking
16 about Mr. Mareane, right?
17 A That was our administrator, yes.
18 Q And you recall in or about November 2015
19 Ms. Baer making this complaint as well?
20 A It's on this letter.
21 Q Now this letter led you to appoint Mr.
22 Hooks to conduct an investigation; is that
23 correct?
24 A I appointed Mr. Hooks to conduct an
1 investigation, yes.
2 Q That was based on this letter of
3 complaint, right?
4 A I think this and I think there may have
5 been other communications.
6 Q What communications are those, sir?
7 A From Karen Baer.
8 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. What
9 was the answer?
10 A From Karen Baer.
11 Q Can you describe those for us?
12 A I'm trying to think back. It may have
13 been this that came as an e-mail, but I received
14 an e-mail from her at the time.
15 Q And there came a time about March 2016
16 that Mr. Hooks issued a report of his
17 investigation of this complaint, right?
18 A Yes.
19 HEARING OFFICER: Are you referring
20 to the Hooks' report?
21 MR. CELLI: Yes, but I'm going to
22 mark something else right now.
23 (RESPONDENT EXHIBIT G WAS MARKED FOR
24 IDENTIFICATION.)
1 MR. CELLI: I'd like to mark for

2 identification Respondent's Exhibit G, a
3 two-page document reflecting some e-mails
4 and I'll ask Mr. Lane to have a look and
5 see if he recognizes this e-mail exchange.
6 A Yes.
7 Q You recall receiving an e-mail on or
8 about April 28th, 2016 after the Hooks' report
9 came out from Ms. Baer, right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And in it she asked you for an
12 opportunity to share with legislators her
13 concerns about the flawed investigative process
14 that Mr. Hooks engaged in and why she considered
15 it further evidence of retaliatory treatment
16 towards her and other voices of color, both on
17 its face and its methodology. You see that
18 language, don't you?
19 A Yes, I do and I responded to her.
20 Q We'll come to that. Were you surprised
21 that Ms. Baer was characterizing the Hooks'
22 investigation in that way?
23 A Yes, I guess I was surprised.
24 Q Were you troubled by that?
1 A Yes.
2 Q Were you concerned about it?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you think that her characterization
5 was unfair to Mr. Hooks and his investigation?
6 A I'm trying to remember the timing. I'm
7 not sure whether I had read the investigation at
8 that point.
9 Q Would it help you if I represented to you
10 that the investigation was issued on or about
11 March 15th, 2016?
12 A Yes, and I would have read it by then.
13 Q So with that characterization, did you
14 think Ms. Baer was being unfair of her
15 characterization of Mr. Hooks' investigation?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you responded to that e-mail with the
18 e-mail on the top of this exhibit where you say,
19 "hi, Karen. I want to acknowledge receipt of
20 your e-mail. Dan and I will discuss your request
21 and I will reply when I'm able to do that,"
22 right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q That was the very next day you got back
1 to her, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And the request that you were going to
4 discuss with Dan -- strike that. The Dan you're
5 referring there to is Dan Klein?
6 A Vice Chair Dan Klein, yes.
7 Q And the request that you and Mr. Klein
8 were going to discuss was Ms. Baer's request to
9 share with the legislators her concerns about the
10 flawed Hooks' process, correct?
11 A She was asking to meet, in my reading of
12 this, she was asking to meet with the full
13 legislature and that was discussed and we did not
14 think that was the proper way to proceed with a
15 personnel matter.
16 Q When you responded to Ms. Baer on the
17 29th, you didn't ask her what she meant by the
18 flawed process, did you?
19 A I think my response speaks for itself.
20 Q Because you didn't really want to hear
21 what she had to say about that since you had
22 already decided that she was being unfair to Mr.
23 Hooks?
24 A We had appointed an investigator to find
1 out about these things and she had ample

2 opportunity in talking to the investigator to do
3 that. He interviewed her and he gave her a
4 chance to revise and extend her remarks.
5 Q And you decided that Ms. Baer was not
6 even entitled to speak to the legislators about
7 her concerns, correct?
9 answered.
10 HEARING OFFICER: Repeat the question
11 please.
12 MR. CELLI: I don't think it was
13 asked and answer.
14 Q You had decided, Mr. Lane, as the chair
15 of the legislature that Ms. Baer was not going to
16 be permitted to discuss her concerns about the
17 Hooks' investigation with other legislators?
18 A After consultation with other
19 legislators.
20 Q But that was your decision?
21 A That was the legislators' decision,
22 legislature's decision.
23 Q Was there a vote on that?
24 A No.
1 Q Was there a resolution on that?

2 A No.
3 MR. CELLI: I'd like to offer
4 Respondent's G into evidence.
5 MR. MCCANN: No objection.
6 HEARING OFFICER: Received.
7 MR. MCCANN: Mr. Hearing Officer, I
8 would state a continuing objection to the
9 relevancy of this document. I don't have
10 an objection to the document based upon
11 foundation.
12 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I note your
13 objection, but it is entered into the
14 record.
15 Q Now subsequent to this exchange in late
16 April in 2016 with Ms. Baer, would it be fair to
17 say that you communicated to Ms. Baer that if she
18 had any additional evidence that she wanted to
19 provide in connection with the Hooks' inquiry
20 that you invited her to do that?
21 A I believe that I did, yes.
22 Q And on August 26, 2016 she responded to
23 that invitation, did she not?
24 A I believe there was a response.
1 Q Let's have a look at that.

2 MR. CELLI: I would like to mark for
3 identification Respondent's Exhibit H.
4 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT H WAS MARKED
6 HEARING OFFICER: Is this Mr. Lane's
7 response.
8 MR. CELLI: No. We'll hear the
9 testimony, but this is Ms. Baer's response
10 dated August 26, 2016.
11 Q I'm going to ask a few questions about
12 this, Mr. Lane, but can you tell us is this the
13 response that you received from Ms. Baer to your
14 request for any further submission on the Hooks'
15 issues?
16 A Yes. I believe this is the response that
17 I received.
18 Q And did you read it when it came in?
19 A Yes.
20 Q I'm going to direct your attention to the
21 second full paragraph where Ms. Baer writes --
22 strike that.
23 MR. CELLI: I would like to offer
24 this into evidence.
1 MR. MCCANN: Objection based on

2 foundation. Continuing objection to
3 relevancy.
4 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, and the
5 objection is noted. It's received.
6 Q Just to be clear is this a document that
7 you received in the regular course of your
8 business as a legislator in Tompkins County?
9 A It's addressed to me and I would have
10 received it, yes.
11 Q And it's addressed to you and Mr. Klein,
12 right?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And you understood that to be something
15 you were receiving in your role as chair of the
16 legislature, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And let's go to the second full
19 paragraph. Ms. Baer writes, quote, "since
20 expressing my concerns to you in a memo dated
21 November 15th, 2015 it has still not been clearly
22 or accurately communicated to me what your
23 process for addressing my concern is. In spite
24 of this, I made the effort in good faith to
1 participate in your process hoping to reach an

2 amicable way of going forward. I patiently
3 waited through months of silence eager for some
4 type of dialogue or resolution to take place
5 during which time I experienced continued efforts
6 of exclusion. Then when I finally received the
7 official report, I was deeply offended and
8 disappointed in terms of its flawed methodology,
9 content and focus." Do you recall Ms. Baer
10 communicating that information to you?
11 A If it's in here, yes.
12 Q And that wasn't the first time that she
13 was telling you that she was unhappy with the
14 Hooks' process, right?
15 A I know she was unhappy with the process.
16 Q And one of the things she was unhappy
17 with was that it had never been clearly
18 communicated to her what the process was going to
19 look like, fair?
20 A If that's what this says.
21 Q Ms. Baer provides a number of -- let's go
22 down the first page. Ms. Baer writes, quote, "my
23 limited response to the process is as follows,"
24 do you see that?
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q And there are a number of paragraphs that
3 follow. Let's talk about each one of them. The
4 first a response that she gives is, quote, "the
5 investigator misled me about his role and the
6 process," do you see that?
7 A I do.
8 Q And you understood at this point that Ms.
9 Baer was complaining that she was, had been told
10 that her complaint of November 2015 would be
11 conciliated when in fact it was treated in an
12 adversarial way?
13 A I understand that she requested
14 conciliation on this. The charges of
15 discrimination, various kinds of discrimination
16 and retaliation were of such a serious matter and
17 taken so seriously by the legislature, our
18 response was to have it officially investigated.
19 Q Fair enough. And that was your decision
20 not to conciliate the complaint with Ms. Baer,
21 right?
22 A It was the decision of the legislature to
23 move forward with the retaining of an
24 investigator.
1 Q Well, you were aware that Ms. Baer had

2 communicated to that investigator, Mr. Hooks,
3 that she wanted to conciliate her complaint,
4 right?
5 A I wasn't aware of it at that point.
6 Q Well, you knew it by August 26, 2016,
7 right? That's what she says in this memo.
8 A In this document, yes.
9 Q Did it come to a surprise to you that Ms.
10 Baer wanted to conciliate her complaint?
11 A Considering the seriousness of the
12 charges she was levying against a county
13 administrator, yes.
14 Q You never picked up the phone to Ms. Baer
15 and said I see you want to conciliate this. Why
16 don't we have a conversation and see what we can
17 do here?
18 A I did not.
19 Q As far as you know, nobody did that from
20 the legislature, right?
21 A No, because we were going --
22 Q It's a simple yes or no question.
23 A We were going through the process.
24 Q You can explain when your lawyer asks you
1 questions. I'm entitled yes or no questions,

2 okay.
3 HEARING OFFICER: If you know the
4 answer, just give counsel yes or no.
5 A Would you repeat your question?
6 Q Sure. No one from the legislature picked
7 up the phone and called Ms. Baer and said I've
8 just discovered that you wanted to conciliate the
9 issue of your November 15th complaint?
11 Q And no one from the county
12 administration, from Mr. Mareane or Miss Younger
13 did that either, right?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q Moving further down the page Ms. Baer
16 writes, quote, "the process I was subjected to
17 was unprofessional, partial and demeaning and the
18 investigator failed to follow standard due
19 process protocols." Do you see that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you see that Ms. Baer was complaining
22 among other things that Mr. Hooks had fallen
23 asleep during the interview?
24 A Yes.
1 Q And that she was complaining that he

2 never recorded the interviews?
3 A I see that complaint.
4 Q She was complaining that he omitted
5 relevant materials from his report, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did that trouble you at all?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And did you do anything --
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q -- to look into that?
12 A Absolutely. May I explain?
13 Q No. You can explain when you're asked.
14 A All right.
15 Q I get to ask questions. You have to
16 answer questions, Mr. Lane. You understand that,
17 right?
18 A Go ahead.
19 Q You're a lawyer, right, Mr. Lane?
20 A I am.
21 Q Did you tell Ms. Baer that you were going
22 to do something to figure out whether or not her
23 allegations about Mr. Hooks falling asleep and
24 not recording things and not keeping track of
1 things, did you tell her or have anybody

2 communication to her that you were going to look
3 into that?
4 A No.
5 Q Ms. Baer also says, quote, the report is
6 biased on its face and in its impact. And among
7 other things she points out that Mr. Hooks takes
8 the word of a white male over a black woman; do
9 you see that?
10 A I remember that, yes.
11 Q And you knew when you read that that what
12 she was referring to was Mr. Hooks' statement
13 that Ms. Baer had been intimidating to Leslyn
14 McBean, who is an African-American member of the
15 legislature?
16 A I don't recall that.
17 Q Are you aware that Mr. Hooks never spoke
18 to Miss McBean about whether she was, quote,
19 intimidated by Ms. Baer?
21 Q You never asked Ms. Baer or had anybody
22 ask Ms. Baer what are you talking about here that
23 he took the word of a white person over a black
24 woman?
1 A No.
2 Q Never investigated that at all, right?
3 A The entire investigation was investigated
4 by the legislature.
5 HEARING OFFICER: The legislature
6 investigated the investigation?
7 A It did. When we had these allegations --
8 HEARING OFFICER: That's all I asked.
9 A -- about the person falling asleep,
10 Judge.
11 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me. Is the
12 Hooks' report, where is that in the
13 evidence?
14 MR. CELLI: It's not.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Just for my
16 knowledge please what was the date of the
17 Hooks' report?
18 MR. CELLI: It was issued, I mean, we
19 can stipulate March 15th, 2016.
20 MR. MCCANN: It sounds right. I
21 would have to verify.
22 MS. SALZMAN: It might have been
23 March 13th. March 15th, you're right.
24 March 15th, 2016.
1 HEARING OFFICER: 2015 right?

2 MS. SALZMAN: '16.
3 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me.
4 Q Turning to the next page, Mr. Lane, Ms.
5 Baer talks about, quote, undue influence and a
6 flawed process; do you see that?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And in that part of her response to the
9 Hooks' report she is complaining about the fact
10 that there were conversations between Mr. Mareane
11 and members of the legislature about her
12 complaint that she was not a party to, fair?
13 A There were no official things like that.
14 All discussions about this were handled in
15 executive session by only the members of the
16 legislature.
17 Q Listen to my question if you would.
18 A That's my response.
19 Q My question is really simple. When you
20 got this memo, you understood that what Ms. Baer
21 was complaining about was that there had been
22 conversations between Mr. Mareane and members of
23 the legislature about her complaint without her
24 being present, right? That's what she was
1 complaining about?
2 A That's what she said.
3 Q And there were in fact conversations
4 between Mr. Mareane and members of the
5 legislature about her complaint without her being
6 present; isn't that right?
8 Q Did you speak to Mr. Mareane? Strike
9 that. Are you denying that there were
10 conversations between members of the legislature
11 and Mr. Mareane -- let me finish my question --
12 about Ms. Baer's complaint during this period
13 without her being present?
14 A No. I said I don't know that there were.
15 Q You're not denying that that happened?
16 A I can't because I can't speak for all 14
17 members of the legislature.
18 Q You spoke to Mr. Mareane about the
19 complaint during this period, didn't you?
20 A I did not. I made it very clear that I
21 would not be speaking with him about these
22 issues.
23 Q I'm going to go to the next point that
24 Ms. Baer makes in her complaint, quote, "no
1 knowledge of or access to the investigatory

2 materials." Do you see that?
3 A I'm sorry. Where are you? Oh, yes, I
4 see it.
5 Q Bottom of the second page. And in that
6 response to Mr. Hooks what -- you understood Ms.
7 Baer to be communicating was that she did not
8 have full access to all of the evidence and
9 information that Mr. Hooks had allegedly
10 considered in his investigation, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that was true?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q Did you do anything to investigate that?
15 A We discussed it with our attorney, yes.
16 Q Let's go to the last item on that page.
17 Ms. Baer writes, quote, "I still have hope that
18 we can get past this." Do you see that?
19 A I do.
20 Q And in that section Ms. Baer is
21 suggesting that she would be willing and even
22 eager to conciliate her complaint against members
23 of the county leadership, right?
24 A Yes.
1 Q And she points out that she moved her

2 family from another part of the state to Tompkins
3 County to take this job at Tompkins County,
4 right?
5 A She applied for the job and was hired.
6 Q And she moved her family to get the job,
7 right?
9 Q Well, let's have a look.
10 A Or I didn't at that time.
11 Q When you read this it says, quote, "I
12 moved my whole family to this county and I have
13 made permanent investments in staying here."
14 A I have no reason to doubt that.
15 Q But you didn't pick up the phone or ask
16 anybody else to pick up the phone or send an
17 e-mail or a letter or make any attempt at
18 communicating with Ms. Baer at this point about
19 the possibility of conciliating her complaint,
20 right?
22 MR. CELLI: I need number 43.
23 HEARING OFFICER: Let's take a five
24 minute break.
1 (RECESS TAKEN.)
2 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT I WAS MARKED
4 Q Okay. Mr. Lane, I've placed in front of
5 you a document that we've marked as Respondent's
6 Exhibit I. Do you recognize that document, sir?
7 A Yes. It's a letter from myself and vice
8 chair to Karen Baer.
9 Q And this is a letter that you sent on
10 September 12th, 2016, correct?
11 A It is.
12 Q And it's something that you and the vice
13 chair sent in your roles as chair and vice chair
14 of the legislature?
16 MR. CELLI: We would offer this into
17 evidence.
19 Q And this is the legislature's response to
20 Ms. Baer's August 26th e-mail, correct, the one
21 we just went over?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And this letter does not respond to any
24 of those six points that we just talked about,
1 does it?
2 A It says that we recognize her making
3 additional allegations of bias and misconduct and
4 that we were asking for additional evidentiary
5 material from her about that.
6 Q Fair enough. It doesn't say anything
7 about her assertion that she was misled by Mr.
8 Hooks about his role in the investigation, right?
9 A No, it does not.
10 Q It doesn't say anything about her
11 statement that his investigation was
12 unprofessional and violated due process
13 protocols, does it?
14 A It does not.
15 Q Doesn't say a word about her conclusion
16 that the report was bias on its face and its
17 impact, does it?
18 A It does not.
19 Q Doesn't say anything about the
20 conversations that occurred between legislators
21 and Mr. Mareane about Ms. Baer's complaint during
22 its pendency, right?
23 A It doesn't say anything about that.
24 Q And it doesn't say anything about her
1 suggestion that we can all move past this and

2 conciliate these issues, right?
3 A Doesn't say anything like that.
4 Q Instead what it says is that her August
5 26th e-mail was, quote, "misdirected," right?
6 That's the word you used?
7 A Yes, I used the word. I said your August
8 26, '16 e-mail attacking Mr. Hooks' investigation
9 is misdirected.
10 Q So you were unwilling to accept Ms.
11 Baer's August 26 memo as her response to the
12 Hooks' report?
13 A It was, it did not provide additional
14 evidentiary material.
15 Q You were insisting on more?
16 A That's what this letter says.
17 Q I'm asking you as you sit here today, it
18 wasn't enough for you to hear from her that the
19 investigator was asleep during the interview; is
20 that correct?
21 A You say it wasn't enough. The
22 legislature took it upon itself to completely
23 investigate and review the entire Hooks' report,
24 every member of the 14 members completely
1 reviewed it.
2 Q I don't know what question you're
3 answering.
4 A Well, I'm trying to explain to you.
5 Q I'm asking a simple question. I'm not
6 looking for an explanation.
7 A You're saying we didn't, this letter
8 speaks for itself.
9 Q I'm trying to ask you questions and get
10 you to respond directly. This is cross
11 examination. I get to ask questions and you have
12 to answer them.
13 A But the letter speaks for itself, sir.
14 Q It wasn't enough for you that she claimed
15 to have been misled by the investigator, right?
16 A It was not, what she had provided to us
17 was not enough to substantiate the additional
18 allegations.
19 Q Let me ask it a different way. You
20 didn't write a letter to Ms. Baer afterwards
21 saying by the way we conducted a full
22 investigation of this, we interviewed Mr. Hooks.
23 We took testimony and we did all things that one
24 would do in the proper due process investigation
1 and we determined that he didn't fall asleep,

2 that he did include all the matters and that all
3 of your complaints are unsubstantiated. You said
4 it was misdirected, right? You didn't say it was
5 unsubstantiated, correct?
6 MR. MCCANN: Object. There are at
7 least four questions there.
8 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. I think I
9 understood it. There was no investigation
10 of the investigation and such. They
11 reviewed the report and this is the result
12 of the review.
13 MR. CELLI: Exactly.
14 Q You didn't really conduct an
15 investigation of the investigation, did you,
16 right?
17 A That's not true.
18 Q Now the Hooks' report came out I think we
19 established in March of 2016, right?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And the legislature did not adopt the
22 Hooks' report until January of 2017, right?
23 A I believe that is the truth.
24 Q Ten months later. And during that period
1 of time you talked about the Hooks' report with

2 other legislators?
3 A In executive session, yes.
4 Q And during that period of time to your
5 knowledge other legislators talked about that
6 report with one another?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And to your knowledge other legislators
9 talked about that report with Mr. Mareane?
11 Q And you talked about it with Mr. Mareane
12 during that period?
13 A I did not except he was provided a copy
14 of the report.
15 Q When did that happen?
16 A At the same time I believe that the
17 report was sent to Karen Baer.
18 Q Who provided him a copy of that?
19 A The legislature.
20 Q Did you tell Ms. Baer that you were
21 giving a copy of her report to her boss about
22 whom she had complained about discrimination and
23 retaliation?
24 A I did not communicate with her, but our
1 attorney communicated with her attorney.

2 Q And you're saying that somebody told me
3 that a report was being given to Mr. Mareane?
4 A I'm saying that a report was given to, I
5 don't know whether it was you that was the
6 attorney involved or not, but the report was sent
7 as I understood it by our attorney, Mr. McCann,
8 to Karen Baer's attorney.
9 Q Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're
10 saying. Who gave Mr. Mareane a copy of this
11 report?
12 A The legislature did. I didn't.
13 Q And when did that happen to the best of
14 your knowledge?
15 A At the same time that Mr. McCann gave a
16 copy of the report to Karen Baer's attorney.
17 Q Was that before or after the legislature
18 adopted the report? It was before, right?
19 A I believe it was before.
20 Q It was ten months before?
21 A Yeah.
22 Q So from March of 2016 up until January of
23 2017, when the legislature adopted the report,
24 Mr. Mareane, one of the people who was complained
1 about by Ms. Baer, had a copy of that report,

2 right?
3 A Yes. He was the subject of the serious
4 allegations that were made.
5 Q And where does it say, in what possible
6 process does it say that prior to adoption of the
7 report by the legislature the person complained
8 about gets to see the report?
9 A Well, I don't think it says that or it
10 doesn't say that the person complained about.
11 Q Right. Mr. Mareane was the person
12 complained about, right?
13 A Certainly.
14 Q In what world is it appropriate to give
15 the person about whom there has been a complaint
16 a copy of a report before the legislature has
17 even acted on it?
19 Argumentative.
20 Q Do you understand my question?
22 Argumentative. Calls for a legal
23 conclusion.
24 MR. CELLI: Withdrawn.
1 MR. MCCANN: Thank you.

2 Q Did Ms. Baer lie in her November 2015
3 complaint to you?
4 A I don't know.
5 Q Do you have an opinion as you sit here
6 today?
7 A I wouldn't make an opinion about that.
8 Q When you directed that the report of Mr.
9 Hooks be given to Mr. Mareane, were you at all
10 concerned that Mr. Mareane might retaliate
11 against Ms. Baer for the complaints that she was
12 making?
13 A No.
14 Q You were convinced that that wasn't
15 something he would do, right?
16 A No. I wasn't convinced that anybody
17 would do anything. He was simply recused from
18 anything to do with this as was the county
19 attorney.
20 MR. CELLI: This is going to be
21 exhibit, Respondent Exhibit J.
22 Q Wait a minute. So Mr. Mareane was
23 recused from --
24 A Because we did not discuss it with him.
1 Q Let me finish the question. When did Mr.

2 Mareane get recused from the Hooks' matter?
3 A At the very beginning he was certainly
4 part of the investigation and, you know, his
5 communications were part of the exhibits, but he
6 was not being talked about by the legislature in
7 any of our discussions about the Hooks' report.
8 Q So you would agree that recusing the
9 party about whom the complaint has been made from
10 the investigative process, other than obviously
11 as a witness, that that is good investigative
12 practice, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q But the legislature gave him the report
15 without telling the complaining party, Ms. Baer,
16 that it was doing that, right?
17 A Well, we gave the report to Ms. Baer's
18 attorney without telling him we were giving it to
19 her.
20 Q So you don't see any difference between
21 giving a report to the complaining party and
22 giving the report to the party about whom a
23 complaint was made who exercises power over the
24 complaining party; is that your testimony?
1 A No.
2 Q Did there ever come a time that Mr.
3 Mareane was unrecused, if you will, from the
4 Hooks' matter?
5 A No.
6 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT J WAS MARKED
8 MR. CELLI: Not to confuse matters
9 but I'd like to do this a certain way. I
10 placed before the witness Respondent's
11 Exhibit J and I'm going to ask some
12 questions about it. And, Mr. McCann, just
13 to be clear this I believe is part of
14 another exhibit.
15 MS. SALZMAN: Exhibit A.
16 MR. CELLI: Yeah, Exhibit A.
17 MR. MCCANN: Isn't it the same
18 exhibit?
19 MS. SALZMAN: No.
20 MR. CELLI: It's an individual copy
21 as opposed to a compendium of e-mails.
22 MS. SALZMAN: They did attach other
23 e-mails.
24 MR. CELLI: Oh, really.
1 MR. MCCANN: What's the difference

2 between the two?
3 MS. SALZMAN: We have some clerical
4 issues. Do you want to rip them off.
5 MR. CELLI: Yeah. Sorry about this.
6 MS. SALZMAN: You just want to talk
7 about the July.
9 MR. MCCANN: Can't he refer to
10 Respondent's A to do that?
11 MR. CELLI: No.
12 MR. MCCANN: We usually have the same
13 documents.
14 MS. SALZMAN: You did it yesterday,
15 John. You marked an individual e-mail and
16 then you marked a chain.
17 MR. MCCANN: I did not.
18 MS. SALZMAN: Exhibit 6 and 7. Check
19 it out.
20 MR. MCCANN: The chain was not
21 already in evidence on that one.
22 MS. SALZMAN: The chain is in
23 evidence. It's Exhibit A.
24 MR. MCCANN: No. The situation
1 you're referring to, Zoe, the chain is not

2 in evidence yet.
3 HEARING OFFICER: I've got what is
4 marked so far as Respondent's Exhibit J for
5 identification.
6 MR. MCCANN: Which is which part of
7 what had been marked?
8 MR. CELLI: Which is the first two
9 pages of what I handed you. It's the July
10 6th e-mail from Ms. Baer to a number of
11 individuals.
12 Q Mr. Lane, do you recognize this e-mail?
13 A It's an e-mail from Karen Baer to members
14 of the legislature dated July 6, 2016.
15 Q I think you testified in your direct
16 about the topic. This is an e-mail where Ms.
17 Baer is talking about the ban the box initiative,
18 right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And in this e-mail Ms. Baer is
21 communicating to you and other legislators the
22 ban the box initiative had actually been
23 something that was a policy matter of some
24 importance for her office for some period of time
1 prior to this, correct?

2 A Yes.
3 Q And she wanted you and the other
4 legislators to understand that ban the box was
5 something that had been important to OHR for a
6 long time, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And you would agree that she communicates
9 to you that ban the box had been something that
10 OHR had been promoting for more than two years?
11 A That's what she communicates, yes.
12 Q You don't doubt that's true, do you?
14 Q And the first thing she does in this
15 e-mail is thanks the legislators for taking
16 action on the ban the box initiative, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q This is a document that you received in
19 the ordinary course of your business as the chair
20 of the legislature, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 MR. CELLI: We'd ask that it be
23 admitted into evidence.
24 MR. MCCANN: Objection. It's already
1 in.
2 HEARING OFFICER: I'll accept it.
3 MR. CELLI: Yeah, we can go off the
4 record if you want.
5 HEARING OFFICER: No, that's all
6 okay. It's in.
7 Q Now when you testified about this
8 document in your direct, you mentioned or were
9 asked about the expression that, the phrase that
10 Ms. Baer used on the second page of the e-mail,
11 third full paragraph where she says, but I did
12 want to make you aware that there exists a
13 climate within this county workforce where
14 exclusion and retribution is able to take hold in
15 a very oppressive way. Do you see that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And if I recall your testimony correctly,
18 you said that that statement bothered you because
19 it was not supported by statistical or other
20 evidence?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You've heard of the workforce climate
23 study in Tompkins County, haven't you?
24 A Yes.
1 Q And the workforce climate study is the

2 study of the employees of the county and how they
3 feel about the workplace?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And at or about this very time the
6 workplace climate study for Tompkins County had
7 been released, correct?
8 A I believe it had, yes.
9 Q And that study showed that people were
10 deeply concerned about discrimination and
11 retaliation within the workforce of Tompkins
12 County, correct?
13 A Some respondents.
14 Q Well, that was a major conclusion of the
15 workplace climate study, right?
16 A That some respondents felt that way, yes.
17 Q When you heard that that was a conclusion
18 of the study, were you alarmed by that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You were concerned about that?
21 A Of course.
22 Q And so when the workplace study group
23 issued its findings, you were alarmed and
24 concerned, right?
1 A I was concerned.
2 Q But when Ms. Baer puts it in her e-mail
3 you dismissed it because it wasn't supported, is
4 that what you're telling us? Yes or no, sir?
5 A I'm saying that we had a series of
6 unsupported allegations from Ms. Baer.
7 Q I'm talking about this allegation that
8 there was a climate within the county workforce
9 where exclusion and retribution took hold in an
10 oppressive way. That is something that was
11 consistent with the findings of the workplace
12 study, don't you agree?
13 A Well, if it says oppressive way, I'm not
14 aware of that.
15 Q You're telling us that you were not
16 willing to accept Ms. Baer's statement about the
17 climate even though it was consistent with what
18 the workplace study showed?
19 A This had to do with an allegation against
20 another employee.
21 Q Where in that paragraph does it mention
22 another employee?
23 A That's what the series of complaints from
24 Ms. Baer had to do with.
1 Q In fact isn't it true, Mr. Lane, that in

2 that very paragraph what Ms. Baer is saying is
3 that, directed to the legislators, many of you
4 are not motivated to exclude or even know or
5 believe the fuller story. That's what she's
6 saying here, right?
7 A That's what she is alleging.
8 Q You didn't understand Ms. Baer to be
9 alleging that legislators were discriminating
10 against her in this paragraph, were you?
11 A I think it could be taken, read that way.
12 Q She was saying there was a climate,
13 right? That's the term she used.
14 A That's the language she used, yes.
15 Q But when she said it it didn't count.
16 But when the workplace study survey came out and
17 said that there was such a climate, that's was
18 something you were concerned about?
19 A I didn't say it didn't count.
20 Q By the way, you regarded this July 6th
21 e-mail as a complaint by Ms. Baer, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And it's one of the things that
24 stimulated you to hire Mr. Taylor and to conduct
1 an investigation?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Nobody from Tompkins County leadership,
4 be it the legislature or the county
5 administrator's office, picked up the phone after
6 this July 6th e-mail, sent an e-mail, dropped a
7 letter to say to Karen Baer this is important,
8 let's talk about it, did they?
10 MR. CELLI: I'd like to mark as
11 Respondent's K.
12 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT K WAS MARKED
14 Q Which is a July 22nd letter.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Mr. Lane, this is a letter that you wrote
17 to Ms. Baer on or about July 22nd, 2016, right?
18 A Correct.
19 Q And it's something that you wrote in your
20 role as chair of the Tompkins County legislature,
21 true?
22 A Correct.
23 MR. CELLI: We would move for its
24 admission.
1 MR. MCCANN: This is the same

2 document that is in evidence as Charging
3 Party Exhibit 11.
4 MR. CELLI: Okay, well.
5 HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it.
6 MR. CELLI: It's not the end of the
7 world.
8 MR. MCCANN: It's very confusing.
9 MR. CELLI: Not to the witness.
10 Q You're not confused, Mr. Lane, are you?
11 A No.
12 MR. MCCANN: It's confusing to the
13 record.
14 Q Are you confused at all, Mr. Lane, by
15 this letter?
16 A By what? By this letter?
18 document.
19 MR. MCCANN: It was directed to you.
21 document, but I'm going to say this. Let's
22 keep the double exhibits so to speak to a
23 very, very, very limit.
24 MR. CELLI: Here's the problem. I
1 have reasons that I want to do it the way I

2 want to do it. I would ask for leeway.
3 HEARING OFFICER: I'm giving you the
4 leeway by allowing the document.
5 MR. CELLI: I appreciate that.
6 Q So in this letter, which is a response to
7 that July -- strike that. This letter is a
8 response to Ms. Baer's July 6th e-mail, correct?
9 A It is.
10 Q And in it you ask her, suggest to her
11 that if she would like to provide any additional
12 support for her allegations, she is invited to do
13 that, right?
15 Q But you also say to her, "be advised that
16 in the event that you decide not to provide
17 support for these claims, the legislature will
18 make a determination on the merits of your claims
19 based on information known to the legislature",
20 right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q That's only fair, you would agree?
23 A That's what it says.
24 Q It doesn't say if you decide not to
1 provide information in response to this, you're

2 going to get fired or disciplined, right?
3 A It speaks for itself.
4 HEARING OFFICER: Let me go off the
5 record.
6 (OFF-THE-RECORD DISCUSSION.)
7 Q Have a look, if you would, at
8 Respondent's Exhibit A previously marked and
9 admitted. And I want to focus your attention --
10 A I haven't got there yet. Okay.
11 Q I want to focus your attention quickly on
12 two e-mails in this consolidated exhibit. One
13 from you dated October 7th to Ms. Baer, I'm
14 sorry, October 7, 2016, and the other is from you
15 to Ms. Baer dated October 14th, 2016. Do you see
16 those?
17 A Yeah. I'm looking at October 7th. And
18 which is the second one you wanted me to look at?
19 Q October 14th, yours to her.
20 A Yes, okay.
21 Q Mr. Lane, in those e-mails you're
22 inviting Ms. Baer to provide further information
23 in support of the complaints that she lodged on
24 July 6th, correct?
1 A Yes.
2 Q And on October 10th there is an e-mail
3 from Ms. Baer to you at 5:36 which is the second
4 page of the exhibit?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And in that e-mail Ms. Baer provides you
7 with further information about the nature of her
8 complaints, right?
9 A Yes.
10 Q She talks about the initiatives, titles,
11 and discussions that were acutely related to her
12 areas of expertise from which she was excluded,
13 correct?
14 A That's what she says, yes.
15 Q And she gives ten examples, right?
16 A As a list.
17 Q And those in fact were the ten things
18 that Mr. Taylor investigated, right?
19 A I believe so.
20 Q And that's because you asked him to
21 investigate those ten things, correct?
22 A We asked him to investigate the
23 additional complaints of discrimination and
24 retaliation.
1 Q Which are reflected in the October 10th,

2 2016 e-mail?
3 A As I understood it, yes.
4 Q And Ms. Baer also gave you additional
5 information in support of her complaint on
6 October 23rd, 2016, correct?
7 A That's where she sent me her resume.
8 Q By the way, did you give Mr. Taylor Ms.
9 Baer's resume?
10 A I did not personally give Mr. Taylor
11 anything. It would have been done through our
12 attorney.
13 Q To your knowledge, was Mr. Taylor given
14 Ms. Baer's resume?
15 A I don't know.
16 Q Do you think it would have been important
17 for Mr. Taylor to have read and understood Ms.
18 Baer's resume prior to --
20 Argumentative.
21 MR. CELLI: Let me finish the
22 question, Mr. McCann.
23 MR. MCCANN: I thought that you had.
24 MR. CELLI: I hadn't.
1 MR. MCCANN: Please finish.

2 Q As you sit here today, do you think it
3 would have been important for Mr. Taylor to have
4 read and understood Ms. Baer's resume before
5 determining whether she was or wasn't excluded
6 from areas acutely related to her expertise?
7 MR. MCCANN: Objection,
8 argumentative.
9 HEARING OFFICER: No. I'll allow the
10 answer. If you know.
11 A I think it's certainly something he could
12 have considered and I think it would have been
13 important for her to have cooperated with him.
14 Q I'm just asking about the resume.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Well, you got a
16 comment on it further. I understand.
17 Q You would agree by the way, Mr. Lane,
18 that the ten items listed in Ms. Baer's October
19 10th e-mail are in fact areas within her field of
20 expertise, would you not?
21 A I believe so.
22 Q And in her October 23rd e-mail, which is
23 the first page of this exhibit, Ms. Baer
24 references the need to inquire with Legislator
1 Peter Stein whether he indeed conveyed to me that

2 equal opportunity for me at the county no longer
3 existed; do you see that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And you asked Mr. Taylor to investigate
6 that too, right?
7 A We asked Mr. Taylor to investigate the
8 claims of discrimination and retaliation.
9 Q That are set forth in these documents,
10 right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q There is no mystery of what Ms. Baer was
13 asking and complaining about, right? Right?
14 A There is no mystery about it?
15 Q You knew perfectly well --
16 A There was a huge mystery about it.
17 Q You knew perfectly well the items that
18 she was complaining about, didn't you?
19 A No.
20 Q She wrote them to you in an e-mail --
21 A I won't say, that's not fair.
22 Q She wrote them to you in an e-mail,
23 right?
24 A She wrote those items, yes.
1 Q At the end of Ms. Baer's October 23rd

2 e-mail, bottom of the first page, she writes,
3 quote, "I continue to believe that reasonable
4 people will agree that the absence of the
5 director of human rights from internal
6 conversations relating to workplace climate,
7 diversity and inclusion, civil rights
8 enforcement, protected category training,
9 etcetera, appears suspicious and wrong headed on
10 its face"; do you see that?
11 A I do.
12 Q Do you agree with that statement?
13 A No.
14 Q Wouldn't you have expected the county's
15 director of human rights to be involved in
16 conversations about workplace climate, diversity
17 and inclusion, civil rights enforcement,
18 protected category trainings?
19 A Yes.
20 Q So it would be fair to say however that
21 you were not troubled by the fact that she had
22 been excluded from those kinds of conversations?
23 A I don't believe she was excluded from
24 them.
1 Q She didn't participate in them or wasn't

2 invited to participate?
3 A That's what her allegation is.
4 Q Well, I understand that's what her
5 allegation was. If it turned out that she hadn't
6 in fact been invited to participate in those
7 conversations, would you be bothered by that?
8 A It would all depend on the context. What
9 department was investigating what. Looking at
10 what. Normally there would be reach out between
11 department heads to things like that, yes.
12 Q Let's get --
13 MR. CELLI: Before we go to this next
14 topic, I would like to mark this as the
15 next exhibit. This is the workplace
16 survey.
17 HEARING OFFICER: Respondent's C.
18 MR. CELLI: It was not admitted. It
19 needs to be remarked. Remember we did
20 another C. We can do this off the record.
22 (EXHIBIT NUMBER L WAS MARKED FOR
23 IDENTIFICATION.)
24 Q So we've placed in front of the witness a
1 document that we've marked as Respondent's

2 Exhibit L for identification. Mr. Lane, do you
3 recognize this document?
4 A I may have seen it. I know what it's
5 about.
6 Q Well, this is the Tompkins County
7 Workplace Climate Initiative report on focus
8 group results and recommendations, correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And that is a document that was prepared
11 by the Tompkins County Department of
12 Administration in May of 2016, correct?
13 A It could, I don't know that, but it could
14 have been prepared by the administration.
15 Q Have a look at the third page of the
16 exhibit, direct your attention to the middle of
17 the page.
18 A The answer is yes.
19 Q And this was a document that was prepared
20 by the Tompkins County administration in the
21 ordinary course of its work, correct?
22 A It would have been, yes.
23 Q This is an official county document,
24 right?
1 A Yes.
2 Q And as chair of the legislature, this is
3 a document that was communicated to you in that
4 role, true?
5 A Yes.
6 Q On the front, first two pages of this
7 document reflects the focus group recap; do you
8 see that?
9 A I do.
10 Q And this is more or less a summary of the
11 findings of the focus groups of workers in
12 Tompkins County, right?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Have a look at the second page. Do you
15 recall in or about May of 2016 being notified
16 that in the focus groups conducted as part of the
17 climate study, quote, diversity and inclusion
18 needs more attention, unequal treatment in the
19 workplace. Ongoing occurrences of micro
20 aggressions and concerns that the, and the
21 concern that county leadership is not taking the
22 necessary measures to protect employees from
23 disparate conduct and retaliation for complaining
24 about it were the dominant themes across the
1 groups when discussing diversity and inclusion.

2 Many believe that if you stand, quote, that if
3 you stand up for diversity or for your rights,
4 you'll be shut down, end quote. Which could take
5 the form of not being promoted, being silenced in
6 some way or being shunned by your colleagues. Do
7 you see that?
8 A I do.
9 Q And you recall reading that in your role
10 as chair of the legislature, right?
11 A I would have or it would have been
12 reported to me.
13 Q That's a very alarming finding, don't you
14 agree?
15 A It's troubling.
16 Q And that's something that you as chair of
17 the legislature reflected on as part of a retreat
18 with department heads that summer of 2016,
19 correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And that finding is consistent with the
22 complaints that Ms. Baer made in both November of
23 2015 and in July through October of 2016,
24 correct?

2 answered.
3 HEARING OFFICER: I can't recall if
4 it was answered though.
5 A Could you are restate please?
6 (PREVIOUS QUESTION READ BACK.)
7 A I suppose in some parts, yes.
8 MR. CELLI: We would offer this into
9 evidence.
12 MR. MCCANN: Note my standing
13 objection to relevance to this entire line
14 which I mentioned several times.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, I know.
16 Right. I think the line of questioning is
17 to show two things, if I'm not mistaken.
18 First that the Respondent voiced concerns
19 of disparate treatment.
20 MR. CELLI: And retaliation.
21 HEARING OFFICER: And retaliation and
22 the legislature knew about it and
23 retaliated, one. Two, and her decision to
24 question Mr. Taylor prior to entering into
1 an investigation where he would be the

2 investigator.
3 MR. CELLI: I think that is the top
4 line description. We would have a lot of
5 nuance with that, but yes.
6 HEARING OFFICER: Nuances big time.
7 MR. CELLI: Yeah, thank you.
8 MR. MCCANN: I would just add that
9 there is no dispute that she complained and
10 her complaints were investigated. To go
11 through the entire history of the
12 complaints doesn't seem relevant to the
13 charges before you.
14 MR. CELLI: We disagree.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Why did I not know
16 you were going to say that. Yes, of
17 course.
18 MR. CELLI: Mr. Hearing Officer,
19 would place in front of Mr. Lane the
20 document that has been previously admitted,
21 Charging Party Exhibit 12. And then we're
22 going to mark another. I'd like to put --
23 HEARING OFFICER: I've got Charging
24 Party 12.
1 MR. CELLI: And we're going to mark

2 for identification Respondent's M.
3 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT M WAS MARKED
5 MR. CELLI: A one page document. I
6 would like the witness to have both
7 documents in front of him at the same time.
8 HEARING OFFICER: And this is exhibit
9 what?
10 MS. SALZMAN: M as in Mary.
11 HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
12 Q Mr. Lane, I want to ask you a couple of
13 questions about what we marked as Respondent's
14 Exhibit M.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Respondent's Exhibit M, can you tell us
17 what that document is, sir?
18 A M appears to be a letter from me to Karen
19 Baer.
20 Q And do you recall sending this letter?
21 A It's my signature, yes.
22 Q Do you have any doubt that a letter went
23 out over your name on January 23rd, 2017 in which
24 it's reported to Ms. Baer that the legislature
1 has adopted the conclusions of the Hooks' report,

2 right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And that's a letter that was sent in the
5 ordinary course of the county's business, right?
6 A I believe, but there was some confusion
7 about the letter at that time. I can't recall
8 all of it.
9 Q Well, what do you recall about it?
10 A That there was some confusion about it.
11 I'm looking at two letters dated the same date.
12 You asked me to do that and they are worded
13 differently.
14 Q Well, let me ask a few questions and
15 maybe we can clarify this. The letter that has
16 been --
17 MR. CELLI: I'd like to offer into
18 evidence Respondent's M.
21 Q The letter that's now in evidence as
22 Respondent's M is a notification to Ms. Baer of
23 the outcome of the Hooks' report and the
24 legislature's adoption of it; is it fair?
1 A Yes.
2 Q And on the same day, Mr. Lane, you sent a
3 letter to Ms. Baer telling her --
4 A Yes, yes, now I'm with you.
5 Q -- that you would be investigating the
6 charges that she made or the complaints that she
7 filed in July and through October of 2016,
8 correct?
9 A Yes. And that's exactly what it was.
10 The first letter had to do with the Hooks'
11 report. The second one was advising her that we
12 were beginning the investigation on her new
13 series of allegations.
14 Q Got it. So on the same day that you told
15 her that you were, the legislature had hired
16 somebody to investigate for her complaints, her
17 new complaints as of July of 2016, you were
18 telling her that the legislature had also adopted
19 and embraced the findings of Mr. Hooks?
20 A That's correct. Because we had had an
21 executive session and determined that.
22 Q And in Respondent's Exhibit M you refer
23 to having -- strike that. In Charging Party's
24 Exhibit 12 you refer to having retained Mr.
1 Taylor to investigate, quote, "your claims that

2 that you've been excluded from county
3 initiatives, titles and discussions as a form of
4 retaliation following your submission of the
5 claims presented in your memorandum dated
6 November 20th, 2015", correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what you're referring to in that
9 sentence are the complaints that Ms. Baer made in
10 July and October of 2016?
11 A Yes.
12 Q When you asked Mr. Taylor -- strike that.
13 When the legislature asked Mr. Taylor to
14 investigate Ms. Baer's July through October 2016
15 complaints, the legislature didn't ask him to
16 investigate the functioning of the Office of
17 Human Rights, correct?
18 A He was asked to investigate the
19 complaints. He was given latitude to do that.
20 Q Okay. But he wasn't doing an analysis or
21 assessment of the Office of Human Rights, that
22 wasn't his portfolio, was it?
23 A That's right. We weren't investigating
24 the Office of Human Rights. That's a department
1 of the legislature.
2 Q Fair enough. Nor was Mr. Taylor directed
3 to conduct an investigation of Ms. Baer's conduct
4 as an employee, right?
5 A I think he had wide latitude as far as
6 the investigation was concerned.
7 Q Was Ms. Baer ever notified that Mr.
8 Taylor was going to conduct an investigation of
9 her behavior as an employee?
10 A This letter was the notification to her.
11 Q And this letter says that he is
12 investigating her complaints, not her. Am I
13 wrong about that?
15 Q So you gave Mr. Taylor the latitude to
16 investigate Ms. Baer, but you never told her
17 about it?
18 MR. MCCANN: Objection. That does
19 not characterize his testimony.
20 MR. CELLI: Please keep the speaking
21 objections to a minimum, John.
22 MR. MCCANN: That's the basis for the
23 objection, Mr. Celli. The question does
24 not fairly characterize the testimony in
1 the record.
2 HEARING OFFICER: What I see is, it
3 says to --
4 MR. CELLI: This is cross
5 examination, Mr. Solomon. In all
6 fairness --
7 HEARING OFFICER: I know you're
8 allowed to lead and you have latitude.
9 MR. CELLI: I'm entitled to ask this
10 question. Let me ask it a different way.
11 HEARING OFFICER: Rephrase it.
12 MR. CELLI: I don't want the witness
13 to be confused.
14 Q The letter that we have marked as
15 Charging Party 15. 12, apologize, 12. The
16 letter that we've marked as Charging Party
17 Exhibit 12 informs Ms. Baer that Mr. Taylor has
18 been retained, quote, "to investigate your claims
19 that you've been excluded from county
20 initiatives, titles and discussions," right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q That's the precise language. Nowhere
23 does it say and we've also asked Mr. Taylor or
24 given him latitude to investigate you, Ms. Baer,
1 as an employee, right?
2 A I said, I think what I said is he was
3 given wide latitude.
4 Q Right. And you never told her about that
5 latitude, did you?
6 A We didn't, there wasn't any way to say
7 what the latitude was.
8 Q Well, you could have written her a letter
9 and said we have to have him investigate you as
10 an employee, but you didn't do that?
11 A I did not do that.
12 Q Thank you.
13 MR. MCCANN: Objection. There's no
14 foundation for that question.
16 question in terms of expediency to move on,
17 but I understand what the testimony and
18 implications are.
19 Q In fact one of the things that Ms. Baer
20 complained about with respect to the Hooks'
21 report is that it wasn't an investigation of her
22 complaint, it was an investigation of her, right?
24 Q You remember that part, don't you?

2 MR. MCCANN: My objection is going to
3 Mr. Taylor's investigation. The
4 mischaracterization of what he did and what
5 he reported on.
6 MR. CELLI: I heard your objection.
7 HEARING OFFICER: I've got, I know
8 what you're saying that it was a limited
9 investigation and he, Taylor, went beyond
10 that.
11 MR. CELLI: No. I'm saying that
12 we've now heard testimony from the chair of
13 the legislature that it was a secret
14 investigation that gave latitude to the
15 investigator to conduct --
16 A This is not a secret investigation.
17 MR. CELLI: -- an investigation that
18 was not disclosed to the employee.
19 A I don't see it as a secret investigation
20 at all.
21 Q Well, you didn't tell Ms. Baer that he
22 had the latitude to investigate her as the
23 employee, did you?
24 A We did not direct him to do that.
1 MR. MCCANN: There's no foundation.

2 HEARING OFFICER: We don't have to
3 argue about it. I think we all know what
4 the answer to it is that there was no
5 communication about investigating her
6 personally as an employee. The
7 investigation report speaks to itself.
8 What you would argue in your post hearing
9 brief is that Ms. Baer was not informed,
10 first of all, of the investigation of
11 herself. Second of all, Mr. Taylor went
12 beyond the scope of his authority.
13 MR. MCCANN: Well, if I may speak to
14 that, Mr. Hearing Officer.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Sure. That's what
16 you would argue. I'm not saying I agree
17 with it.
18 MR. MCCANN: There is no evidence in
19 the record that Mr. Taylor investigated
20 Karen Baer. The party is limited to
21 questioning why she did not cooperate.
22 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, we've got so
23 many documents here --
24 MR. MCCANN: That's the only --
1 HEARING OFFICER: -- I'm going to

2 have to read them. But as I said I think
3 the documents, I understand what you're
4 saying. We can move on and I'll review the
5 documents.
6 Q In your e-mail -- strike that. In what
7 we've marked as Charging Party Exhibit 12 you
8 asked Ms. Baer, quote, please provide your full
9 cooperation to Mr. Taylor, right?
10 A Yes.
11 Q That's right there in the end. At any
12 point in time did you or anybody else in the
13 county administration, either the legislature,
14 Mr. Mareane, Miss Younger, anybody in a position
15 of authority tell Ms. Baer that what was meant by
16 that was that she had to have a personal,
17 face-to-face interview with Mr. Taylor?
18 A When we were asking for cooperation, we
19 expected that she would cooperate.
20 Q I'm not interested in your expectation.
21 I want to know to your knowledge isn't it true
22 that nobody ever said to Ms. Baer you need to sit
23 down face to face with Mr. Taylor and talk to
24 him?
1 A No.
2 Q She was never ordered to do that?
3 A And we didn't do that with the Hooks'
4 report either, but she did.
5 Q Okay. That's fair. That's fine. I just
6 want to make sure I'm missing something here.
7 HEARING OFFICER: I doubt that you've
8 missed anything, Counselor.
9 Q And to your knowledge, Mr. Lane, as you
10 sit here today nobody from the county
11 administration or the legislature in any position
12 of authority ever said to Ms. Baer if you don't
13 sit down for a face-to-face interview with Mr.
14 Taylor, you're going to be disciplined for that,
15 right?
16 MR. MCCANN: Objection,
17 argumentative.
18 HEARING OFFICER: I understand. I
19 think I know the answer.
20 MR. CELLI: Well, let's hear the
21 answer because I need it for the record.
22 A Should I answer?
23 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, you can
24 answer that.
1 A To my knowledge no one ever said that

2 directly.
3 Q Or indirectly?
4 A Well, when I said in this letter please
5 provide full cooperation, I think that's
6 indirect.
7 Q I see. There came a time when you
8 learned, Mr. Lane, that in fact Mr. Taylor spoke
9 to Ms. Baer by telephone during his
10 investigation, right?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And you learned that Ms. Baer had asked
13 Mr. Taylor for a description of the procedures
14 that he was going to follow in his investigation,
15 right?
16 A No.
17 Q Isn't it the case that -- well, let's get
18 the Taylor report. As you sit here today, Mr.
19 Lane, you've never heard that Ms. Baer asked Mr.
20 Taylor for a description of the procedures he was
21 going to use in his investigation in that phone
22 call?
23 A You said I came to learn it. Maybe I
24 should ask you what time frame you're talking
1 about? Before or after we received the report?

2 Q At any time.
3 A After we received the report.
4 Q So are you telling me that the first time
5 you heard that was when you read Mr. Taylor's
6 report?
7 A Yes.
8 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me. First
9 time you heard what? I missed something.
10 Q That's a fair point. Am I correct in
11 saying, Mr. Lane, that the first time that you
12 understood that Ms. Baer had said to Mr. Taylor
13 in a phone conversation that she wanted to
14 understand the procedures that he was going to
15 follow in his investigation of her complaints,
16 you first learned that by reading Tim Taylor's
17 report in July of 2017?
18 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
19 Q You also learned that Ms. Baer had told
20 Mr. Taylor that she would meet with him face to
21 face and give an interview so long as she was
22 informed in writing of the procedures, right?
23 A I believe so.
24 Q And when did you learn that?
1 A From the report.

2 Q And you also learned that Ms. Baer didn't
3 just say that on the telephone to Mr. Taylor.
4 She wrote it in a letter to him in June of 2017,
5 correct?
6 A I don't remember that.
7 Q So let's turn to what's been previously
8 marked as Hearing Officer Exhibit 3. Place that
9 in front of the witness.
10 A Okay.
11 Q I'm not going to ask about all 27 pages.
12 A Thank you.
13 Q But I'd like you to familiarize yourself
14 to answer the question do you recognize this as
15 Mr. Taylor's report?
16 A It is, yes. It's the Taylor report.
17 Q Have a look at the bottom of page nine.
18 A Okay.
19 Q Well, let's go back a little bit. Have a
20 look at the bottom of page eight. Under the
21 heading investigation it read, quote, "on
22 February 1st, 2017 I phoned Ms. Baer to introduce
23 myself and arrange a meeting. Ms. Baer informed
24 me that she did not trust the process and wanted
1 to know what procedure the county was following

2 to address her claims. Ms. Baer told me that she
3 did not want to meet with me until she was aware
4 of the process for investigating her complaint."
5 Do you see that?
6 A I do.
7 Q And when you read that sentence in or
8 about July of 2017, is that the first time you
9 learned that information?
10 A In that mode, yes.
11 Q Well, had you heard it prior to that in
12 some other mode?
13 A No.
14 Q Further down the page on page nine the
15 very bottom of the page it says, however on or
16 about June 9th, 2017 she, meaning Ms. Baer, did
17 mail me a letter which states, quote, "during our
18 initial phone call I shared with you my reasons
19 for not wanting to participate in any
20 investigation that's conducted and paid for by
21 Tompkins County. As a reminder my reasons are as
22 follows: I requested, but you did not provide me
23 with the written process that you intended to
24 follow. I told you that Tompkins County did not
1 provide its workforce with any written

2 transparent or standard policy for how employee
3 complaints based on race will be processed." Do
4 you see that?
5 A I do.
6 Q Is that the first time you learned --
7 A Yes.
8 Q -- that there is a written letter that
9 Ms. Baer wrote prior to the conclusion of Mr.
10 Taylor's investigation saying that she wanted to
11 see a written process?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did anyone in the legislature or
14 associated with the county leadership provide or
15 direct Mr. Taylor to provide to Ms. Baer the
16 written procedures that she was requesting?
18 Q Was there anything to your knowledge that
19 prevented Mr. Taylor from providing that
20 information?
22 Q Did anybody at the county, either in the
23 administration or the legislature, tell Mr.
24 Taylor not to provide the written procedures?
2 Q And you're aware that Mr. Taylor actually
3 determined what the procedures would be by
4 talking to people in the county administration,
5 right?
6 A With our attorney.
7 Q Well, he spoke to Mr. Mareane about it,
8 didn't he?
9 A He did.
10 Q And Mr. Mareane was I guess not recused
11 from this one; is that correct?
12 A Mr. Mareane was the county administrator
13 and if there was a question about procedural
14 items, then he would be the right person to talk
15 to.
16 Q Okay. Just for clarity of the record,
17 you would agree with me, Mr. Lane, that between
18 February 1st, 2017 and August 15th, 2017 neither
19 Mr. Taylor nor no one else associated with the
20 county wrote a letter to Ms. Baer providing her
21 with the procedures of the investigation, right?
22 A To the best of my knowledge, yeah.
23 Q There wasn't any e-mail that got sent to
24 anybody?
1 A I'm not aware of any.

2 Q Nobody called and told her something on
3 the telephone, right?
5 Q Didn't leave a long message with the
6 secretary or on a voicemail?
8 Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Taylor the
9 question of the process by which he conducted his
10 investigation?
11 A I did not. Well, I take that back. He
12 interviewed me for the investigation. And he
13 told me the basic timeline and what the progress
14 was being made at this point.
15 Q When you read the Taylor report, you
16 noticed I'm sure that Mr. Taylor concluded that
17 Ms. Baer was insubordinate?
18 A I did.
19 Q And insubordinate is a term that relates
20 to someone's refusal to act on an order of a
21 superior person in an organization, right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q It's about the role of a subordinate
24 person vis-à-vis a superior person in a workplace
1 setting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you think it was appropriate for Mr.
4 Taylor to be making findings about Ms. Baer's
5 role as an employee when in fact he was tasked to
6 investigate her complaints about her treatment by
7 others?
8 MR. MCCANN: Objections. Assumes
9 facts not in evidence.
10 Q Do you understand my question, Mr. Lane?
12 question for I'll decide how much weight to
13 put on the answer in light of all of this.
14 Q Let me ask it a different way. When you
15 read that Mr. Taylor had determined that Ms. Baer
16 was insubordinate, did you think he had gone
17 beyond the direction that the legislature gave
18 him as to what to investigate?
19 A No.
20 Q So you thought it was fair and
21 appropriate for him to make that finding?
22 A We had, we asked for an investigation and
23 it was the investigation he provided us.
24 Q You also saw that he determined -- strike
1 that. Well, you also saw in Mr. Taylor's report

2 that he determined that the Office of Human
3 Rights had become dysfunctional under Ms. Baer's
4 leadership, right?
5 A I read that.
6 Q Is that something you asked him to
7 undertake as part of his investigation, whether
8 the office was functional or not?
9 A As a part of all of the allegations that
10 Ms. Baer made about the functioning of the county
11 as a whole, discrimination, retaliation, I can't
12 imagine that he wouldn't be looking at it.
13 Q Do you know that he never visited the
14 office?
16 Q Do you know that he never spoke to a
17 single employee of the office?
19 Q Do you know that he never even tried to
20 visit the office?
22 Q Never tried to call any employees of the
23 office?
1 Q He spoke to you, right?

2 A Yes, he did.
3 Q Mr. Mareane, right?
4 A I believe so.
5 Q Members of the legislature, correct?
6 A I believe so.
7 Q But he didn't talk to the people doing
8 the work on the ground, did he?
9 A In the Office of Human Rights?
10 Q In the Office of Human Rights?
12 Q By the way, he didn't speak to Jamila
13 Simon either, did he?
15 Q Jamila Simon is the chair of the Human
16 Rights Commission, right?
17 A Wrong.
18 Q I understand there's a dispute about
19 that, but at that time there was no dispute that
20 she was the chair of the commission, correct?
21 A I don't think that that is correct.
22 Q I guess we can have a side litigation on
23 that, but I don't know if that is useful.
24 MR. CELLI: Can I get ten minutes,
1 Mr. Solomon? I think we're almost down. I

2 just want to consult.
3 MR. MCCANN: I'll have a fair amount
4 of redirect so we're not going to get done
5 in time for this witness to leave even if
6 you take the ten minutes or not take the
7 ten minutes unfortunately.
8 MR. CELLI: Well, we can excuse Mr.
9 Lane and bring him back. Even five minutes
10 I think I'm probably done. If you don't
11 want to start your redirect, that's okay.
12 HEARING OFFICER: We will finish, if
13 that is satisfactory, I think it will be,
14 we'll finish with your questioning since
15 you're five minutes out, excuse the witness
16 Mr. Lane and then we will talk about his
17 reappearance. Let's go off the record.
19 HEARING OFFICER: I just want you to
20 hear this what I'm putting on the record.
21 MR. CELLI: Sure.
22 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Lane has been
23 excused. The cross examination has
24 finished, however Mr. Lane will return at
KAREN BAER by MS. SALZMAN 401
1 some future point to be subject to

2 redirect.
3 MR. CELLI: That's fine. We're going
4 to proceed with, if there are no more
5 witnesses from the charging party, with our
6 case.
8 (RECESS TAKEN.)
9 K A R E N B A E R
10 having been called as a witness,
11 having been duly sworn, was examined
12 and testified as follows:
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY
14 MS. SALZMAN:
15 Q Good morning, Karen.
16 A Good morning.
17 Q Can you start us off today by telling us
18 a little about yourself? Where did you grow up?
19 A I grew up in a small village not too far
20 from here, Penn Yan, New York.
21 Q Tell us a little bit about your family
22 background and history if you can.
23 A I'm the fifth of seven siblings. I was
24 born on Human Rights Day, International Human
1 Rights Day. And my father was black, my mother

2 was white and my family was one of two or three
3 black families that lived in the Village of Penn
4 Yan. My dad didn't have a high school education,
5 but he was very well respected in the community.
6 He started out as a gospel singer, a preacher and
7 then eventually mowed lawns for a living. My
8 mother was, she had a high school diploma. And
9 for the most part she was a stay-at-home mom and
10 the church organist. And when my dad died when I
11 was 15, she went to work full time at the local
12 public library.
13 Growing up black in Penn Yan was a very
14 unique experience for me and it, that's where I
15 formed my identity. It wasn't, the community
16 people saw me as black because of my dad and so
17 did I. So it wasn't until I left Penn Yan and
18 the confines of my hometown that I realized that
19 people, strangers saw me as a white person and it
20 was that dynamic that really helped form my views
21 on race and also my interest in human rights
22 work.
23 Q So there came a time when you left Penn
24 Yan, right?
1 A Yes.
2 Q What did you do?
3 A Well, when I, I graduated from high
4 school and I took a year and a half. I joined a
5 traveling singer theater group that traveled
6 around the country, and after about a year and a
7 half I started my college career.
8 Q Where did you go to college?
9 A I did, I first went to community college
10 and got an associate's degree at a community
11 college and worked for a year. And then went to
12 Cornell and got my bachelor's. Worked for a
13 couple of years. And then after that I went on
14 to law school.
15 Q Where did you go to law school?
16 A Syracuse University College of Law.
17 Q And what did you do or focus on during
18 your time at Syracuse?
19 A Well, I was 34 years old when I
20 graduated. And I was the first one in my family
21 to do graduate work. I took mainly human rights
22 courses and I won the jurisprudence of human
23 rights award which I'm very proud of. I was part
24 of the women's law caucus in the black law
1 students' association. I wonder could I get some

2 water please?
3 MS. SALZMAN: Could we have marked
4 for identification the document I just
5 handed to the hearing officer?
6 MR. MCCANN: What letter is this?
7 MS. SALZMAN: We're up to N as in
8 Nancy.
9 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT N WAS MARKED
11 Q Ms. Baer, Karen, do you recognize the
12 document in front of you?
13 A Yes, I do. It's my resume.
14 MS. SALZMAN: We move Exhibit N into
15 evidence.
17 HEARING OFFICER: It's admitted.
18 MS. SALZMAN: Thank you.
19 Q Where did you work after you graduated
20 from law school, Karen?
21 A My first job out of law school was the
22 executive director of the Geneva Human Rights
23 Commission in Geneva, New York. When I arrived
24 there it was just a part-time position and a
1 part-time office. But in 2005 I drafted a local

2 law which, a local housing discrimination law
3 that the city council promulgated and it became a
4 local law. And after submitting that law to the
5 US Department of Housing and Urban Development,
6 the federal government certified it as being
7 substantially equivalent to the Fair Housing Act
8 which meant my office in the City of Geneva had
9 the authority to investigate, process, make
10 determinations and hold hearings in relation to
11 local complaints of housing discrimination. And
12 I'm very proud of the fact that, that it was the
13 only city in New York State that had that status
14 in addition to four other counties. As soon
15 after HUD resources started flowing into the
16 city, I was able to become a full-time director
17 and hire part-time staff.
18 Q How long did you work as the executive
19 director of the Geneva Human Rights Commission,
20 Karen?
21 A You're going to make me do math. I think
22 15 years.
23 Q Why did you leave?
24 A Well, around my 14th year I started
1 looking around for other opportunities. It was

2 kind of difficult because I had a kid in public
3 school and I had a spouse that really liked his
4 job and my specialization is quite narrow. But
5 eventually I took a position at the Fair Housing
6 Council of Central New York in Syracuse and I was
7 the director of enforcement there. And I was
8 there less than a year before I came to Tompkins
9 County to be the human rights director here.
10 Q Were you fired from the Geneva Human
11 Right Commission?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you ever been fired from any job?
14 A No.
15 Q Have you ever been disciplined in any
16 job?
17 A No.
18 Q So as you said, there came a time when
19 you were hired here in Tompkins County to be the
20 director of the Office of Human Rights?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Who hired you?
23 A Well, I was interviewed by, was it 300
24 people. No, it was probably just 25. A large
1 group of community stakeholders. And they made a

2 recommendation to the county administrator, Joe
3 Mareane, and he hired me and I served at his
4 pleasure.
5 Q Let me put in front of you a document
6 that is already in the record as I believe it's
7 Exhibit C, Respondent's Exhibit C please. Karen,
8 what is the document before you, Exhibit C?
9 A Job description for the director of human
10 rights, Tompkins County.
11 Q Was that the job you were hired to do?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And tell us just briefly, you don't have
14 to read the document, but just as you understood
15 it, what was your job as director of the Office
16 of Human Rights.
17 A Well, in its broadest, in the broadest
18 terms I was, my job was to both promote human
19 rights and protect human rights. Promotion
20 meaning doing education and outreach and
21 protection meaning enforcing human rights of the
22 residents of Tompkins County.
23 Q And as the director of Office of Human
24 Rights, who did you report to in your chain of
1 command?
2 A Joe Mareane, county administrator.
3 Q Is there also a Tompkins County Human
4 Rights Commission?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What is that and how does it relate to
7 the Office of Human Rights?
8 A Well, the commission is an advisory board
9 to the legislature. I think there are up to 15
10 members. They serve three year terms and they
11 are appointed by the county legislature.
12 Q Are the members employees or something
13 else?
14 A Volunteers, community volunteers.
15 Q And how does the commission, how does its
16 work relate, if at all, to the Office of Human
17 Rights' work?
18 A Well, they are two autonomous bodies.
19 The Office of Human Rights is a department of the
20 county. And the Human Rights Commission is an
21 advisory board. We certainly have very similar
22 missions and assist each other in achieving those
23 objectives, but neither entity reports to the
24 other.
1 Q Is there a chair of the Human Rights

2 Commission?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And do you as director of the Office of
5 Human Rights report in your chain of command to
6 the chair of the Human Rights Commission?
7 A No.
8 Q During your time as director of the
9 Office of Human Rights, did you ever receive a
10 performance review?
11 A Yes.
12 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT O WAS MARKED
14 Q Is the document before you, Karen, what
15 is that document, Exhibit O?
16 A County administrator's review of
17 department head performance and it has my name on
18 it.
19 Q It's your performance review, right?
20 A Yes.
21 MS. SALZMAN: We move Exhibit O into
22 evidence.
24 HEARING OFFICER: O is admitted.
1 Q Who gave you this review, Karen?

2 A My boss, Joe Mareane, county
3 administrator.
4 Q How did he rate your performance?
5 A Either the highest category, which is
6 outstanding, highly effective. Also outstanding,
7 highly effective. Solid performance,
8 significantly effective. Those two categories.
9 Q Are those the two highest rankings you
10 could receive in a performance review?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did Mr. Mareane write on page two of your
13 review that "you were exceptionally strong in
14 these areas. Upon arriving, she undertook a
15 quick objective assessment of the strengths and
16 weaknesses of the office, communicated her
17 conclusions, developed a strategy to address
18 those strengths and weaknesses. And then again
19 after appropriate communication, proceeded to
20 implement that strategy. This was not a small
21 undertaking." Did he write that?
22 A Yes, he did.
23 Q Did he describe you on page three as an
24 excellent communicator, a doer and a highly
1 competent manager?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What about on the last page, the before
4 the last page of the report, page six, did Mr.
5 Mareane write, "as indicated throughout this
6 review Karen is a strong manager and leader. The
7 human rights office today is remarkably better
8 than it was just a year ago."?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And did he write at the very end of your
11 review, "I'm very pleased we were able to attract
12 someone of Karen's caliber to the county. She
13 has already made a meaningful difference and I
14 suspect this is just the beginning"?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did the review set forth some goals for
17 your work in the future?
18 A Yes, it did.
19 Q What were those?
20 A Over the next year Karen will need to
21 decide what to build on the foundation that she
22 has worked to strengthen. In particular a
23 strategic decision needs to be made about our
24 role in the enforcement of human rights law.
1 Q What did Mr. Mareane mean by that?

2 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Mr.
3 Mareane's state of mind?
4 Q I'll rephrase.
5 A It's actually in the text.
6 Q Read the rest and then I'll ask you what
7 you understood?
8 A "In other words, whether to continue to
9 shift toward a conciliation role, develop a new
10 relationship with the state or enact local laws
11 that will empower us to have a greater role in
12 enforcement."
13 Q And what did you understand Mr. Mareane
14 to be referring to there?
15 A Well, it's in reference to the ongoing
16 discussion that was taking place between me and
17 the administration and actually came up during my
18 interview about, about providing the Office of
19 Human Rights with enforcement powers. And
20 finding strategies for doing that whether it's
21 through promulgating local laws for enforcement
22 or trying to reinstate the memorandum of
23 understanding with the state division so that we
24 could be an arm of the state to do enforcement
1 activity.
2 Q What do you mean when you say, just
3 briefly, reinstate the memorandum of
4 understanding with the state? What are you
5 referring to there?
6 A Well, when I arrived, after decades of
7 Tompkins County having a relationship with the
8 state division of human rights through a
9 memorandum of understanding in 2008, that MOU
10 lapsed. And it meant that the Office of Human
11 Rights in the county no longer had very specific
12 powers to process complaints of local
13 discrimination complaints.
14 Q And when did Mr. Mareane give you this
16 A April 15th, 2014.
17 Q And at the time he gave you this
18 performance review, was it your impression that
19 Mr. Mareane was supportive of your interest in
20 developing stronger mechanisms for local human
21 rights enforcement?
22 A Yes. He knew I was in the process of
23 drafting a proposal for that, yes.
24 Q And do you see on page six where Mr.
1 Mareane wrote just a little below the section you

2 were reading, "Karen's interest in a larger
3 county role in fair housing will need to be
4 flushed out and defined again with legislative
5 involvement at an appropriate time. While both
6 of these areas naturally gravitate to WDIC, I
7 suggest that this not be the sole source of
8 legislative input;" do you see that?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q What did you understand Mr. Mareane to be
11 referring to there?
12 A Well, the first part of that I understood
13 to be talking about my area of specialty which is
14 fair housing or housing discrimination. And
15 whether adopting a local law, a local fair
16 housing law was, could be considered another
17 strategy for the county. And I also understood
18 that to believe that I would become the county's
19 fair housing officer. The second part of that
20 dealing with the WDIC, my interpretation of that
21 was that, that in order, because in order to
22 promulgate local laws you have to go through a
23 subcommittee of the county which would be Health
24 and Human Services and not through the WDIC. So
1 I think he was suggesting that because we were

2 looking at issues of enforcement, that my
3 relationship to the human services committee
4 would be important.
5 Q And is the WDIC not a subcommittee of the
6 legislature?
7 A No. It's an advisory committee to the
8 legislature.
9 Q Can the advisory committee promulgate
10 legislation?
11 A No.
12 Q We'll discuss the WDIC in more detail a
13 little later in your testimony, but for now let
14 me ask in your view in this performance review,
15 did Mr. Mareane say anything negative or critical
16 at all about your job performance?
17 A I've read it many times and I haven't
18 found one yet. But I also would like to say that
19 this was a period of time when I really was, I
20 was doing the work that I really loved to do and
21 I felt really very supported. I felt I was in a
22 supportive environment and that my boss shared my
23 views or my vision for human rights in Tompkins
24 County.
1 Q When you say your boss, do you mean Mr.

2 Mareane?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q And you said this performance review was
5 done in 2014, right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did Mr. Mareane ever give you another
9 A No.
10 Q Did he ever say that your performance had
11 deteriorated or gone downhill in some way?
12 A No.
13 Q Did Mr. Mareane ever say he had concerns
14 about your job performance?
15 A No.
16 Q You can put that document aside, Karen.
17 Let's talk very briefly by way of example if you
18 can give us some idea of some of the things that
19 the Office of Human Rights accomplished during
20 your leadership as director?
21 A Well, first of all, when I came to the
22 position I had four full-time staff members. Two
23 positions which were vacant, so I was operating
24 at like 50 percent capacity in terms of staffing.
1 There were only three commissioners on the

2 commission at that time which has basically been
3 dormant for many years. And I soon discovered
4 that serious liabilities in the way that the
5 county was processing local complaints of
6 discrimination and that they were actually
7 exercising powers that were granted under the MOU
8 which no longer existed. So in order to, my
9 interest was to eliminate those liabilities not
10 only for my employer, but also for future
11 residents of Tompkins County who wanted to file
12 complaints of discrimination.
13 Q So how did you attempt to resolve those
14 concerns that you discovered when you got here?
15 A Well, I had to completely revamp and
16 restructure the complaint process, and I created
17 a reconciliation complaint process. And then I
18 had to retrain my staff to make sure that they
19 were operating within the guidelines of our power
20 provisions.
21 Q And what about the memorandum of
22 understanding, what happened with that that you
23 had mentioned, the one that had lapsed?
24 A Well, one of the things, first things I
1 tried to do after I revamped the process, I

2 contacted the State Division of Human Rights. I
3 actually had some correspondence with the acting
4 commissioner at that time. And I kind of tried
5 to reintroduce the office under new management
6 and explored with her the possibility of the
7 state reenacting the MOU with Tompkins County.
8 When the response was negative, I mean,
9 no, not at this time, I started to focus on
10 drafting a local, a comprehensive local law which
11 would give the Office of Human Rights the
12 necessary enforcement powers to process local
13 complaints of discrimination. I also, I have to
14 say that in the education and outreach category,
15 I bolstered current programs, annual programs
16 that were going on including the human rights
17 arts competition, the K through 12 program. And
18 also created new outreach possibilities which
19 included human rights day for kids program and
20 what would MLK say today poster contest for
21 adults and who wants to be a fair housing expert
22 game show. So I tried to work equally on
23 enforcement and outreach. That's my philosophy
24 in terms of human rights work.
1 Q And again, Karen, if you can just briefly

2 give us some examples of some of the things that
3 you and your staff are working on right now for
4 planning for the future?
5 A Well, at the time that I was put on leave
6 we were, we had been working on, especially since
7 the county administrator withdrew his support for
8 the comprehensive local law, I directed my staff
9 to take pieces of that local law and try to make
10 smaller types of protections that we thought
11 would fit, you know, the needs of Tompkins
12 County. We talked to community stakeholders and
13 as a result we decided to focus on two efforts.
14 One is ban the box county wide. Right now it's
15 just for county workforce, but our interest is to
16 have that protection provided county wide. And
17 the other thing that we pulled out of the
18 comprehensive law was source of income, and
19 protect persons that rely on public subsidies for
20 rent so that landlords can't discriminate against
21 them.
22 Q We'll get into this a little more, in a
23 little more detail later in your testimony, but
24 you just testified that there came a time where
1 the county administrator withdrew his support for

2 the comprehensive local law?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Just tell us briefly when that was.
5 A That was August of 2015.
6 Q And that was county administrator Joe
7 Mareane, your boss, right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And we'll come back to that. Was there
10 anything else you were working on by way of
11 example?
12 A We were working on, the office had just
13 developed a safe space tool kit, policy tool
14 kit that --
15 HEARING OFFICER: What was that
16 called? Face face?
17 A Safe space policy tool kit. It was a
18 very technical guide for law enforcement and
19 corrections agencies to make sure that their
20 policies were inclusive and did not discriminate
21 against LGBT whether, persons whether they were
22 in custody or whether they were in the workforce.
23 And we tried to get that tool kit, to present
24 that tool kit to the public safety committee; and
1 I made several requests because our interest was

2 to be able to go to the county sheriff's
3 department and do some training. But we didn't
4 get positive feedback in relation to presenting
5 that kit.
6 Q Now you testified a moment ago when we
7 were looking at your performance review that
8 there came a time, or that during that time when
9 that was done in 2014 you felt you had a lot of
10 support from your boss, Mr. Mareane, right?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q Did there come a time when you believe
13 that the attitude of the county administrator and
14 the legislators towards you changed?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When was that?
17 A March 2015.
18 Q Can you tell us what was happening at
19 that time? And again I know there is a lot here,
20 but if you can summarize for us as best you can
21 what was going on in March 2015 that led you to
22 feel that way?
23 A I have to say it's the first time I'm
24 going to tell this story in public. So during
1 that time the commission and the Office of Human

2 Rights were working jointly on a project to
3 support gender identity rights at the state
4 level. And after that project was well underway
5 Patricia Pryor, the then chair of the Human Right
6 Commission, decided to withdraw her support for
7 part of that strategy related to the drafting of
8 a press release and conducting a press
9 conference. I communicated to Miss Pryor that I,
10 while I respected her position for her
11 withdrawal, that the office was going to continue
12 to be, to do the press release.
13 Q And did Miss Pryor have the authority to
14 direct your work or the Office of Human Rights
15 work?
16 A No. No, authority.
17 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me. Denise
18 Pryor.
19 MS. SALZMAN: Patricia Pryor.
20 HEARING OFFICER: And she was on the
21 Human Rights Commission?
22 MS. SALZMAN: Chair.
23 MR. MCCANN: Mr. Hearing Officer, may
24 I request a brief conference with counsel
1 and the hearing officer?

2 HEARING OFFICER: No problem. Let's
3 take five minutes.
4 (RECESS TAKEN.)
5 HEARING OFFICER: There was an
6 off-the-record discussion. I'm going to
7 let the parties know that my consideration
8 does not go to the validity of Mrs. Baer's
9 complaints which I believe were filed in
10 2015, 2016. That aspect whether they are
11 valid or not does not have to be litigated
12 in my judgement. The question really
13 ultimately is is this a case of retaliation
14 or did the employer have independent
15 reasons for its action. Is that a fair
16 statement, Counsel?
17 MR. MCCANN: I believe it's a fair
18 statement and to add to that you were going
19 to allow me a standing objection to the
20 relevancy of testimony going back to 2015,
21 2016.
22 HEARING OFFICER: So noted, in and
23 for the record.
24 MR. CELLI: We agree it's a fair
1 statement. We are not interested in

2 litigating the validity issue.
3 MR. MCCANN: I think I would just add
4 in terms of your summary, Mr. Hearing
5 Officer, that from our perspective, the
6 case is more directly involved with the
7 charges before you and the defenses being
8 raised from our perspective are about the
9 specifications in the charges.
10 HEARING OFFICER: Right. You're
11 saying that if there had been no complaints
12 filed, I suppose you would have done the
13 same thing.
14 MR. MCCANN: The complaint is what
15 triggered one of the specifications and the
16 lack of cooperation in the investigation.
17 HEARING OFFICER: Right, sure.
18 MS. SALZMAN: And obviously it's our
19 position at the end of the case that the
20 charges are in and of themselves
21 retaliatory. So we agree with the
22 statement you made about not litigating the
23 validity of the underlying complaints of
24 discrimination raised.
1 HEARING OFFICER: With that, I don't

2 know if we saved any time or not.
3 MS. SALZMAN: I sincerely doubt it,
4 but with that we'll resume.
5 Q Karen, when we took our break some
6 minutes ago you were testifying about an incident
7 between you and the then chair of the Human
8 Rights Commission, Miss Pryor. And specifically
9 you said it had to do with a press release,
10 right, in a press conference?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And I had asked you if Miss Pryor had the
13 authority to direct your office or you to do
14 anything one way or another and your answer?
15 A No. She didn't have the authority --
16 well, the chair of the commission doesn't have
17 the authority to direct my staff or to make
18 decisions about office protocols or initiatives.
19 Q And just summarize briefly for us how
20 that incident played out.
21 A Well, when the chair found out that the
22 press release was in the making, there was an
23 attempt to interfere with the process that the
24 office engages in in order to get press releases
1 approved by the administration.

2 Q When you say the office, do you mean your
3 office?
4 A Yes, my office. And also there was an
5 attempt to usurp my authority over my staff. And
6 what followed was that after the meddling took
7 place then I got a call at the office from the
8 chair and she directly told me that I had a lot
9 to learn. That I needed to figure out how things
10 are done in Tompkins County among other kind of
11 derogatory remarks.
12 Q And what was your reaction to what Miss
13 Pryor, how Miss Pryor was treating you?
14 A Well, Miss Pryor is white and I based on
15 previous observations I thought that her behavior
16 towards me was based on my race.
17 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me for
18 interrupting. My understanding is that
19 Miss Pryor is not employed by the county,
20 right?
21 MS. SALZMAN: Correct, at the point.
22 She was previously a legislator, but at
23 that point.
24 HEARING OFFICER: I mean, as chair of
1 the commission.
2 MS. SALZMAN: It's a volunteer
3 position.
5 Q Other than your own belief, Karen, did
6 you have any other basis to believe that the
7 conduct was racially motivated?
8 A Well, yes. Eventually the persons of
9 color on the commission also felt that I was
10 being treated differently because of my race by
11 the chair. Also because they had their own
12 experiences with similar interactions with the
13 chair.
14 Q And did you observe a difference in your
15 view in the way the chair treated you and the
16 commissioners of color and how she treated white
17 county officials?
18 A Absolutely, yes.
19 MR. MCCANN: Hearing Officer, can I
20 have another side bar?
21 HEARING OFFICER: Another side bar.
22 Excuse us.
23 (RECESS TAKEN.)
24 HEARING OFFICER: Could you repeat
1 the last question please?

3 MR. MCCANN: My objection is based
4 upon the off-the-record discussions we've
5 had and the statements made by the hearing
6 officer just prior to recommencing the
7 hearing was that the understanding that the
8 validity of the Pryor complaints are not at
9 issue. To nevertheless take testimony on
10 those issues and in that fashion impune the
11 good name and reputation of a member of
12 this community was not necessary and in my
13 judgement is objectionable. And I don't
14 think it's within the province of this
15 hearing officer to go back into the 2015
16 complaints. There are two sides of that
17 story. There was an investigation. The
18 legislature made findings and conclusions
19 based upon that investigation and that's an
20 old issue. But to the extent that there's
21 testimony being advanced here today that
22 impugns the good name and reputation of a
23 member of this community, it's not
24 necessary and could unduly prolong the
1 hearing and have to now respond to things

2 that are two years old and were decided.
3 HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to allow
4 the question, but I'm going to make concern
5 that this is Ms. Baer's reaction, or
6 feelings exclusively. With that
7 understanding, you may answer the question.
8 A Great. I mean, this is my story. I
9 agree.
10 Q Karen, did you report your feelings, your
11 perception that there was a racial motivation to
12 the way you were being treated to your boss, Joe
13 Mareane?
14 A Yes, because after this incident took
15 place, she went to my boss and she complained
16 about me. And she told him her story which is
17 the only story that's currently out there I have
18 to say and not mine, but she told her story to my
19 boss and he believed it.
20 Q What did Mr. Mareane say when you tried
21 to tell him your side of the story?
22 A He didn't want to hear my side of the
23 story. Not only that, but he directed me to
24 apologize to Miss Pryor, to the chair.
1 Q Was it your perception that Mr. Mareane

2 was angry with you?
3 A Yes, he was, from that day on he was
4 angry with me and it completely changed our
5 relationship.
6 Q And just very briefly what happened
7 ultimately with Miss Pryor's position as chair of
8 the Human Rights Commission?
9 A Ultimately?
10 Q Did she remain as chair?
11 A No. The commissioners, the black
12 commissioners who were threatening to resign
13 decided that instead of resign that they would
14 draft a resolution that said that they had lost
15 confidence in the leadership of the chair; and
16 I'm assuming that instead of going through a
17 formal --
18 Q Don't assume anything. Just tell us what
19 happened with Miss Pryor's position as chair.
20 A Soon after that resolution surfaced, Miss
21 Pryor resigned in August of 2015.
22 Q And following Miss Pryor's resignation
23 from the commission, what was your perception of
24 how that resignation was received by the county
1 legislators?
2 A Well, I know for a fact that the county
3 administrator, Mr. Mareane, was very displeased.
4 And I was told that the legislators were also
5 displeased.
6 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Hearsay, the
7 not responsive to the question --
8 MS. SALZMAN: It's not for the truth
9 of the matter asserted.
10 MR. MCCANN: -- and ask that it be
11 stricken.
12 MS. SALZMAN: It's for what she
13 perceived.
15 answer and I'll decide how much weight to
16 give it knowing that there is some hearsay
17 to it.
18 A And I was told by a legislator that
19 legislators in general were upset with me because
20 they believed Miss Pryor's story.
21 Q Let's talk about what happened to you and
22 your work in the months after Miss Pryor resigned
23 in August 2015. What happened?
24 A Well, everything changed from that time
1 on. First of all, I was very distraught that my

2 boss, Joe Mareane believed that story and that he
3 wasn't interested in hearing my side of the
4 story. And what followed was, you know, a lot of
5 conflict coming out of the commission, okay. And
6 I have to say the administrator and the
7 legislators began retaliating against me and
8 shunning me.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Let the record
10 reflect this is your opinion.
11 A Yes, of course, of course. I'm only
12 telling my story.
13 HEARING OFFICER: Yes, sure. Yeah, I
14 agree. I understand.
15 A And those actions, those retaliatory
16 actions whether they were direct or whether they
17 were in the form of silence, it had negatively
18 impacted me, my work and my staff.
19 Q Can you describe what you mean by
20 retaliatory actions? What was happening?
21 A Well, a number of things. First of all,
22 there's the example of after the chair resigned,
23 before the chair resigned my, the county
24 administrator was in support of pursuing local
1 enforcement powers for the office and afterwards

2 he withdrew that support. Another example was
3 that he retroactively applied the county's hiring
4 freeze to my department.
5 Q When did he do that?
6 A In August of 2015 just after Miss Pryor
7 resigned. I had submitted the documents
8 authorizing me to fill two positions because
9 currently my department was, I had two vacant
10 positions on my department and I submitted the
11 authorization forms to the county administrator
12 for approval. I had gone through this process
13 before and it normally took less than 24 hours to
14 get that approval.
15 Q You said two vacancies. How big was your
16 staff?
17 A Four staff. So I was at 50 percent
18 capacity.
19 Q So in this instance you referred to a
20 retroactive application of a hiring freeze. What
21 do you mean by retroactive, just briefly?
22 A Just three weeks before the hiring freeze
23 was announced, I submitted the required documents
24 to fill my vacancies. And immediately afterwards
1 the personnel department assisted me in posting

2 those vacancies and, you know, going through
3 applications and doing interviews with the
4 understanding that the freeze didn't apply to my
5 department. But then I was notified, just as I
6 was about to make an offer, I was notified by Mr.
7 Mareane that the hiring freeze was being applied
8 to my department retroactively claiming that
9 although he had received the authorization forms
10 three weeks prior, he had not signed them.
11 Q And when did Mr. Mareane tell you that
12 the hiring freeze was being applied retroactively
13 to you?
14 A This would have been October, September I
15 believe it was. I don't know.
16 Q Of 2015?
17 A Of 2015, yes. It was after of course the
18 resignation of the chair of the commission.
19 Q Let's move on. Were there any other
20 examples of retaliatory acts you were observing
21 in this time period following Miss Pryor's
22 resignation in August of 2015 throughout the rest
23 of 2015?
24 A Well, there were delays in appointments
1 to the Human Rights Commission. I think that was

2 November of 2015. There were two applicants
3 wanting to serve on the commission and those
4 appointments were delayed. Something that I
5 hadn't seen happen before in the legislature.
6 This kind of stymieing appointments. They are
7 usually rubber stamped. They are part of the
8 consent agenda that goes to the legislature. But
9 this was an example where the appointments were
10 delayed and it caused some concern for the
11 commission.
12 Q Any other examples of retaliatory actions
13 in that 2015, August of 2015 let's say November
14 of 2015 that you wanted to bring up today?
15 A Well, this is just a few, okay. So
16 another was that in the two years before the
17 chair resigned, the legislature had routinely
18 asked me to assist them in drafting proclamations
19 and resolutions related to human rights or my
20 area of expertise including a fair house
21 proclamation each April which usually included
22 some language which recognized the Office of
23 Human Rights as being dedicated to fair housing
24 protections and promotions. And after the chair
1 resigned, I was no longer asked to participate in

2 that process. In addition the proclamation that
3 was written for fair housing month after the
4 resignation redacted the text which acknowledged
5 the work of the Office of Human Rights.
6 Q And what about Mr. Mareane's relationship
7 or treatment with you? I think you testified a
8 few minutes ago that that changed very
9 dramatically from your perception?
10 A Yes, it did. Before the resignation of
11 the chair, Joe Mareane would routinely come to
12 OHR events and presentations or, you know, key
13 note addresses that I was giving, and also
14 legislators, and after the chair resigned that
15 didn't happen again.
16 Q Karen, in this 2015 period we've been
17 talking about, what did you do when you felt you
18 were being retaliated against?
19 A Well, the first thing I did was to direct
20 my staff to redouble its efforts. We wanted to
21 make sure that our, that we were focused on our
22 work and the quality of our work and the impact
23 of our work because we are all people of color
24 that work in my office and we understand what
1 it's like to be scrutinized and targeted. And so

2 we wanted to make sure that the quality of our
3 work didn't suffer or that could be used as an
4 excuse for retaliating against us. The second
5 thing I did was draft a letter of concern to the
6 members of the health and human services
7 committee and to Mike Lane.
8 MS. SALZMAN: And could we place
9 before the witness what has been previously
10 admitted as Exhibit F. Thank you.
11 Q Karen, is this the letter that you just
12 referred to?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And did you write in this letter that
15 "for example in the past few months there have
16 been a number of retaliatory measures directed
17 toward me and my office by the administrator and
18 other county actors. And I believe these
19 demeaning behaviors stem from my refusal to
20 engage in a discriminatory strategy against the
21 HRC, a strategy involving a series of misguided
22 directives I perceived to be based on race, color
23 and sex." Did you write that?
24 A Yes, I did.
1 Q Why did you send this memo? What was

2 your hope in doing so?
3 A Well, I was sending the memo because I
4 was concerned about resolving the issues
5 regarding the Office of Human Rights and the
6 Human Rights Commission and their mutual
7 relationship with the administration and the
8 legislature. And I was very disturbed about what
9 I was seeing and what I was experiencing. And I
10 was frustrated that people of color were being
11 disrespected, ignored, and disbelieved by the
12 most powerful people in Tompkins County. And I
13 knew that my memo was going to county officials
14 who have never for the most part experienced or
15 ever will experience what it feels like to be
16 disrespected, ignored, and disbelieved because of
17 their race, their color or their sex. And I
18 wanted to put my finger on what I considered to
19 be a very serious issue hoping that a deeper
20 conversation could be had and that we could find
21 a way to resolve this problem and move forward.
22 Q What happened after you sent this memo,
23 Karen?
24 A Well, the first thing I experienced was a
1 complete shunning by most of the legislators.

2 And I was sent I believe correspondence from Mike
3 Lane, the chair, who said that somebody by the
4 name of Edward Hooks was being hired by the
5 county to investigate my complaints.
6 Q Were you interviewed by Mr. Hooks?
7 A Yes, I was after I received some
8 assurances.
9 Q What assurances?
10 A Well, I asked him if it would be possible
11 to act as a conciliator in this matter.
12 Q What is a conciliator? What does that
13 mean to you?
14 A Meaning that he would attempt to bring
15 the parties together and conduct a forward
16 looking process rather than a backward blaming
17 process. So I was, I was mostly interested in
18 rebuilding my relationship with legislators and
19 my boss. And when I, when I approached him with
20 this idea, he said he would have to get it
21 approved by the county attorney. And so some
22 time went by, probably not a lot of time, and I
23 recall that Mr. Hooks called me and he told me
24 that he had gotten permission from the county
1 attorney to approach this as a conciliation

2 effort and that's when I agreed to be
3 interviewed. And I gave Mr. Hooks the names of
4 three witnesses, Leon Lawrence, Jamila Walida
5 Simon and Amos Malone.
6 Q Who were they?
7 A They were all commissioners of color who
8 kind of had witnessed most of the things that had
9 been going on. And I also provided Mr. Hooks
10 with what I, since it was a conciliated effort
11 with the basic or the crucial prima fascia
12 evidence that I had to prove my concerns.
13 Q What was the result of Mr. Hooks'
14 investigation?
15 A Well, it certainly wasn't a conciliated
16 effort. Mr. Hooks wrote a very long
17 investigative report which I believe minimized my
18 concerns and relied on the credibility of white
19 people to discredit me and my witnesses. I
20 believe that instead of addressing my concerns of
21 retaliation and discrimination, that he spent a
22 lot of time articulating why I might have
23 deserved it.
24 MS. SALZMAN: Can I have marked as, I
1 think we're up to O. Are we up to O?

2 MR. CELLI: No, P.
3 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT P WAS MARKED
5 Q Karen, do you recognize the document
6 that's been marked as Respondent's Exhibit P?
7 A Actually I only recognize the report
8 because that's all I received.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Is that the Hooks'
10 report?
11 A I didn't receive, I only received the
12 exhibits after communicating with my attorney.
13 So yes, the report I recognize.
14 Q But is the document before you Mr. Hooks'
15 report with its appendices?
16 A Yes.
17 MS. SALZMAN: We offer Exhibit P into
18 evidence.
19 MR. MCCANN: No objection to the
20 report itself in terms of authentication.
21 Same objection to the relevance of
22 relitigating these cases that have been
23 decided.
24 HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it into
1 the evidentiary record.

2 Q And I know it's a long document. We're
3 not going to go through the whole thing, but can
4 you just tell us, did you find the Hooks' report
5 fair and impartial?
6 A Emphatically, no, I did not.
7 Q What were some of your concerns?
8 A Well, again he dismissed my concerns of
9 retaliation. He directed, he targeted me instead
10 of my concerns. I have a pretty long laundry
11 list of issues of partiality and unprofessional
12 technique in regards to this report.
13 Q Did you memorialize those concerns in
14 some way?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q How did you do that?
17 A Well, one of my concerns, and I'm not
18 going to be able to mention all of them, but one
19 of my concerns is that instead, I thought I was
20 promised a conciliated effort and what I got was
21 just the opposite. It was accusatory. It was
22 adversarial. And it was directed at disregarding
23 my voice and my witnesses of color. I have to
24 say that there are 38 findings in this report
1 and not one of those findings, 38, not one of

2 those findings is based on anything a person of
3 color had to say. So I had, I had issues with
4 the fact that it wasn't a conciliation.
5 I was very disappointed that, I had some
6 complaints about his investigatory technique
7 which has already been mentioned, but I'll just
8 add that he didn't record witness interviews with
9 me or my witnesses. He only took three sentences
10 maybe of notes during an almost two hour
11 interview. And when, which forced me and my
12 witnesses of color to have to redraft his
13 interview summaries because he had distorted
14 things that we had said and he had omitted what
15 we considered to be crucial testimony.
16 And on another occasion, on more than one
17 occasion, Mr. Hooks closed his eyes and then
18 would open his eyes. The second time he closed
19 his eyes I grabbed my purse and I was ready to
20 leave. And my purse had a buckle on it which
21 made him open his eyes and then I was, I didn't,
22 I didn't want to embarrass him so I just stayed
23 for the interview. But these concerned me, these
24 things.
1 And I also was, another critique I have

2 of this report is that he grouped people of color
3 as having, as being one voice. He referred to my
4 witnesses not individually, but they said, they
5 did, they thought. While white witnesses got to
6 be, got unique voices. They had their own
7 opinions. They were, you know, single voices and
8 I was disturbed by that. I had, one of my
9 witnesses was Leon Lawrence who's a very well
10 respected and prominent black man in this
11 community and he had a lot to say to Mr. Hooks.
12 And he was one of my most avid supporters, but
13 you don't see Leon's voice in here anywhere. His
14 voice was completely redacted out. He doesn't
15 say anything in this report at all. And I found
16 that disturbing because I believe that because of
17 his fine reputation they thought, somebody
18 thought that leaving Leon's voice in there would
19 be persuasive and so it was left out.
20 I was also concerned about this report
21 because it seemed to have a kind of over the top
22 affirmation for Miss Pryor and I felt like this
23 investigator was telling her story. He wasn't
24 telling my story. It wasn't telling her story.
1 I'm really disappointed today that I can't really

2 tell my story because I also have a reputation
3 that I want to uphold and I want to tell my
4 story. And this report doesn't tell my story.
5 This report tells somebody else's story.
6 An example, I gave Mr. Hooks my resume,
7 my performance review, which we just reviewed,
8 and it's not even referred to. The document
9 isn't even referred to in this report neither by
10 name or its substance. On the other hand Miss
11 Pryor's resume was attached and sent to the
12 legislature and I couldn't tell you right now
13 where that text is, but he spends a good amount
14 of time praising the qualities and the
15 qualifications of Miss Pryor and completely
16 ignoring mine.
17 I also had issues with his selection of
18 e-mails, okay. I soon learned this somebody was
19 going into my county mailbox and selecting
20 e-mails for this investigation. And I have to
21 say that the selection process was discriminatory
22 because on more than one occasion, on several
23 occasions the chair of the commission would
24 contradict herself in various e-mails, but the
1 investigator reported in such a way that that was

2 not revealed at all. And I also want to say that
3 I believe that my e-mail box, my county mailbox I
4 saw some irregularities in there. I just want to
5 put on the record that I just think the whole
6 providing of e-mails made me feel very insecure
7 because there were a lot of missing e-mails that
8 weren't mentioned in the report and the ones that
9 were paraphrased which gave a discriminatory kind
10 of perception of what was actually going on.
11 Q Okay. Did you find, did you feel when
12 you read the Hooks' report that Mr. Hooks was
13 relying on any stereotypes about you as a woman
14 of color?
15 A I think it's finding number 29. Finding
16 number 29 says that Karen Baer is a very -- let
17 me read it. "Mr. Mareane's efforts were viewed
18 by Ms. Baer as indicative of his failure to have
19 her back. He had witnessed her in meetings in
20 the past where Ms. Baer exhibited behavior which
21 was very threatening and intimidating." So one
22 of those, that finding is based on the fact that
23 my boss, Mr. Mareane, witnessed or observed me
24 intimidating Legislator Leslyn McBean-Clairborne
1 and, which kind of also contradicts how he

2 describes me in my performance review. And I
3 have also since talked to Legislator McBean and
4 found out that Mr. Hooks never interviewed her to
5 determine whether she in fact was intimidated.
6 And that in a conversation between her, the
7 county administrator and other legislators that
8 she told, she informed Mr. Mareane about the
9 Hooks' report, that she had never been
10 intimidated by me.
11 So I just thought that the technique for,
12 that gives you a good example of how these
13 findings, what type of basis. And on more than
14 one occasion one single white person's testimony
15 was a finding even though four people of color
16 testified in a contrary opinion, but the white
17 voice became the finding and not the black voice.
18 Q It is a long document. We said we
19 weren't going to go through all it. I'm going to
20 ask you to set it aside now.
21 HEARING OFFICER: Can we go off the
22 record?
24 Q Did you express your concerns with the
1 Hooks' report to the legislature?

2 A Yes, I did.
3 MS. SALZMAN: Can we just place
4 Exhibit H in front of Ms. Baer please?
5 Q Karen, is Exhibit H an e-mail that you
6 wrote to Mike Lane and Dan Klein, legislators, on
7 August 26, 2016 to memorialize some of your
8 concerns with the Hooks' report?
9 A Yes.
10 MS. SALZMAN: I think this would be a
11 good time to take that break if you want.
12 HEARING OFFICER: Shall we take 15
13 minutes for lunch.
14 (RECESS TAKEN.)
15 Q Karen, when we took a break a few minutes
16 ago you had just been testifying about an e-mail
17 you sent in the summer of 2016 about the Hooks'
18 report, right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And when did the Hooks' report get
21 issued, do you remember?
22 A I believe it was March of 2016.
23 Q And in that same period of time, that
24 spring through summer of 2016 the Hooks' report
1 is issued and you're making, you're responding

2 with your concerns, was there anything else
3 happening in terms of your concerns about
4 discrimination and retaliation?
5 A Yeah. It was in the spring of 2016. I
6 had found out by way of a press article that the
7 county was considering implementing ban the box
8 for county employees for the county workforce.
9 And I was very excited about that because ban the
10 box was of course part of my, not only my
11 comprehensive plan of discrimination proposal,
12 but it also was an initiative that we were trying
13 to get independent political support for. So
14 when I heard that I thought it was great news.
15 We had been involved in talking with community
16 stakeholders and employers about ban the box.
17 But then I learned that the legislature had
18 created a ban the box work group and nobody from
19 my staff, neither I or anyone from my staff was
20 invited to participate in that.
21 Q During that same period of time, that
22 spring and early summer of 2016, did you come to
23 learn about the county's workplace climate survey
24 report?
1 A Yes. Initially I was very involved in

2 that initiative. I was on the committee that
3 chose the organization that would do the survey
4 and do the methodology and come up with questions
5 and things. So I was very involved in it prior
6 to the chair resigning and afterwards I was no
7 longer. I wasn't put on the steering committee
8 or other initiatives related to it.
9 HEARING OFFICER: What was the name
10 of the committee?
11 A Climate survey steering committee.
12 MS. SALZMAN: Can we put Exhibit L
13 before the witness, Mr. Hearing Officer?
14 Q Is this the report of the workplace
15 climate survey that you became familiar with in
16 that period of time, spring of 2016?
17 A Yes. This report I was familiar with,
18 the second part of this. This report I wasn't
19 familiar with because I didn't participate in the
20 focus groups.
21 Q You're pointing to the first two pages of
22 the exhibit --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- which is focus group recap?
1 A Right.
2 Q And the part you're saying, just so the
3 record is clear, you were familiar with is the
4 underlying report that was issued in May of 2016?
5 A Yes. This I believe I had seen through
6 the normal course of business either on the WDIC
7 or, but this I, actually I think this is a FOIL
8 request. This is a document that I didn't have
9 because I wasn't in any of the focus groups.
10 Q So the documents in evidence, and I'm not
11 going to have you take us through it, but can you
12 just tell us what you took away from that
13 document in the spring of 2016 when you received
14 it?
15 A Well, on the second page I have to say
16 that under the paragraph diversity and inclusion
17 I thought that that was my story.
18 Q And just to be clear, Karen, you weren't
19 part of the focus group that made these findings
20 in this report, right?
21 A I wasn't part of the group. And not only
22 that, but when I took the survey before, you
23 know, the transition I was really pretty happy.
24 I would have been an identified African-American
1 female taking the survey and I rated everything,

2 I was really happy.
3 Q When you say before the transition, what
4 do you mean by that?
5 A Before Miss Pryor resigned, this survey
6 went out and I was very happy with my situation.
7 So I was really surprised when the survey in
8 spite of my input to my own individual situation,
9 that there was a, seemed to be a pattern or some
10 kind of systemic issue with how unhappy persons
11 of color were working for the county.
12 Q You can set that aside.
13 MS. SALZMAN: Can we have Exhibit A
14 before the witness, Mr. Hearing Officer?
15 HEARING OFFICER: Uh huh.
16 THE COURT: E.
17 MS. SALZMAN: A as in alpha.
18 Q Karen, let me direct your attention to
19 the last e-mail in this exhibit, the one dated
20 July 6, 2016. Do you see that e-mail?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q Was this an e-mail that you wrote to
23 Tompkins County legislators in the summer of 2016
24 about the ban the box efforts you were just
1 describing?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you write on the second page, "I
4 fully realize that many of you are not motivated
5 to exclude or even know or believe the fuller
6 story as I have conveyed it, but I did want to
7 make you aware that there exists a climate within
8 this county workforce where exclusion and
9 retribution is able to take hold in a very
10 oppressive way." Did you write that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And did you go on to write, "so I relate
13 to you this story by way of example in order to
14 allow you an opportunity to possibly empathize
15 with what it must feel like for me and my staff,
16 all persons of color, to read the highlights of
17 your meeting last night and to realize how
18 invisible it makes us and our efforts seem in
19 your eyes. In many ways what has transpired does
20 not appear dissimilar, both in style and impact,
21 to the types old school tactics used for decades
22 to exclude people like us." Did you write that?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q And how did Mr. Lane respond -- you can
1 look at the e-mail chain, we've looked at these a

2 lot. I'm not going to take you through them one
3 by one, but just tell us in your own words how
4 Mr. Lane responded to this July 6, 2016 e-mail?
5 MR. MCCANN: I'm sorry. You're
6 asking her to remember the documents in
7 evidence?
8 MS. SALZMAN: No. I'm asking how he
9 responded. She was personally there and
10 personally experienced it.
11 MR. MCCANN: Okay. Thank you.
12 A Well, I do recall getting, I think that's
13 what came next were the two letters.
14 Q Are you talking about the January 2017
15 letters?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Before we talk about those, let's stick
18 with the exhibits. I'm sorry. I was trying to
19 save us some time. There are a lot of documents.
20 We'll stay with the exhibits. Let's stick with
21 those 2016 e-mails, Karen. And in particular let
22 me direct your attention to the e-mail in this
23 exhibit that is dated Monday, October 10th, 2016.
24 It's on the second page of the exhibit. Do you
1 see that?
2 A Oh, yes. Yeah.
3 Q What were you doing in that October 10th,
4 2016 e-mail? What was your purpose in writing
5 it?
6 A I responded to Mr. Lane by sending him
7 some of the exclusions that I had experienced
8 since the resignation of Miss Pryor and I think,
9 I don't know, there are ten of them. And each is
10 a situation where I felt like I was qualified.
11 It was in my area of expertise and I wasn't asked
12 to participate or I couldn't participate.
13 MS. SALZMAN: Just give me one moment
14 please.
15 Q Let's go through those, Karen. The first
16 one is ban the box, right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And we already talked about that. What
19 about the climate survey steering committee? You
20 sort of briefly mentioned that before, but how
21 did you feel excluded from that?
22 A Well, before Pat Pryor resigned I was an
23 integral part of the climate survey initiative.
24 And afterwards I, I wasn't able to participate.
1 In fact the steering committee if I recall

2 correctly was announced, it was announced at a
3 department head meeting that a steering committee
4 had been formed.
5 Q And you were not on that steering
6 committee?
7 A Somebody asked who was on the committee
8 and they read off the names and that's when I
9 learned I wasn't on it.
10 Q What about the fair housing officer, the
11 next item in that list that you provided Mr.
12 Lane, what did you feel was your basis for
13 alleging exclusion?
14 MR. MCCANN: I'm going to state an
15 objection for the record at this point.
16 This is a different objection than before.
17 Now the testimony that is being elicited is
18 to litigate the very issues that Mr. Taylor
19 was retained to investigate. From our
20 perspective on behalf of the county, it is
21 not appropriate at this point to litigate
22 issues. The whole basis for the charges is
23 she refused to participate in the
24 investigation where these issues would have
1 been litigated. The case is no longer

2 about whether or not her allegations were
3 true or false. The case is about whether
4 or not she had the opportunity to bring the
5 story forward and refused.
6 MS. SALZMAN: And again for the
7 record we are not alleging and we are not
8 trying to litigate whether her allegations
9 in this e-mail were true or false. We
10 recognize that is not the purpose of this
11 hearing. I'm trying to put in the record
12 that when Karen Baer wrote those e-mails in
13 the summer and fall of 2016, she had a good
14 faith basis to believe that her exclusion
15 from these ten county initiatives and
16 opportunities was discriminatory and
17 retaliatory. And that the charges that
18 followed in this case are retaliation for
19 her complaints. The same issue we've
20 already discussed at length.
21 MR. MCCANN: The good faith basis is
22 tied up integrally with whether or not she
23 brought a complaint or whether or not she
24 had the opportunity to participate in the
1 investigation. She could have presented

2 her good faith basis to Mr. Taylor.
3 MS. SALZMAN: Now we're make closing
4 arguments and post hearing submissions.
5 MR. MCCANN: No, we're not.
6 HEARING OFFICER: I understand what
7 both sides are saying. Of course you're
8 saying we are just going through this
9 briefly, not for purposes of right or
10 wrong.
11 MR. MCCANN: But the testimony
12 elicited is for the purpose of right or
13 wrong. We have the complaint that ought to
14 be enough for a retaliation charge.
15 MS. SALZMAN: It is not for the
16 purpose --
17 MR. MCCANN: Proving the case is not
18 the retaliation charge.
19 MS. SALZMAN: Excuse me, John, I'm
20 speaking at the moment.
21 MR. MCCANN: You kind of cut me off.
22 MS. SALZMAN: Then please finish.
23 MR. MCCANN: I'm finished now.
24 MS. SALZMAN: I'm not trying to prove
1 that in each of these ten areas Karen Baer

2 was in fact in proof actually excluded for
3 discriminatory and retaliatory purposes.
4 I'm trying to establish what I have to
5 establish to prove our affirmative defense.
6 You yourself said, John, when we were off
7 the record I have the burden of proving
8 that Karen Baer made her complaints in good
9 faith with a basis that she has reason to
10 believe -- oh, I'm sorry. You go ahead.
11 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry. Please
12 finish.
13 MR. MCCANN: I did not say that by
14 the way. That's a mischaracterization.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Please finish and
16 then let me add to it.
17 MS. SALZMAN: If you want to
18 stipulate, John, that she wrote her e-mail
19 in the summer and fall of 2016 alleging
20 exclusion and retaliation in good faith
21 with a legitimate, reasonable basis, I will
22 end this line of questioning and we will
23 put that stipulation on the record. If you
24 will not stipulate, then I'm entitled to
1 take my witness through her allegations to

2 establish for the record that she made them
3 in good faith and with a reasonable basis.
4 MR. MCCANN: Zoe, we had that
5 conversation on the side bar conference. I
6 don't think you're adding anything to the
7 conversation. You're now making a public
8 statement for the audience.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Let's take a
10 time out. And we need to discuss this off
11 the record if we may.
12 MS. SALZMAN: I don't know that we
13 do. Can we proceed with your objection on
14 the record now?
15 MR. CELLI: The objection stands. I
16 think it's fine. Unless you think we
17 should discuss that.
18 MS. SALZMAN: He thinks there is an
19 objection and we have our grounds.
20 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, let me take
21 five, please.
22 (RECESS TAKEN.)
23 HEARING OFFICER: You want to
24 reiterate your objection? I'm going to let
1 the testimony, the questions continue.

2 MR. MCCANN: My objection is on the
3 record.
4 HEARING OFFICER: Continue please.
5 Q When we went off the record, Karen, I
6 think you were talking about the fair housing
7 officer item on your list. Can you explain
8 briefly why you included that on your list of
9 areas that you believed you were being excluded
10 for in retaliation?
11 A Yes. I would have to say that I'm the
12 most, the highest level fair housing expert at
13 the county. And no one at the county has more
14 fair housing experience than I do. I believe
15 that is why I was hired. And so in July of 2015
16 Mr. Marks, who is the commissioner of planning
17 and sustainability at the county, I was at the
18 time applying for a HUD grant and I asked him to
19 write a letter of support and we had an e-mail
20 exchange in which he said that he was going to
21 recommend to the legislature that I be the fair
22 housing officer for Tompkins County.
23 Q And what happened with that?
24 A Nothing. After a period of time nothing.
1 I am not currently the fair housing officer of

2 Tompkins County.
3 Q What about the next item on your list,
4 the ADA coordinator and the Title VI coordinator?
5 A So when I was on the compliance
6 committee, I also was the preeminent expert on
7 ADA and Title VI compliance. It's part of my
8 experience, my area of expertise. I recall after
9 the chair resigned from the commission that I
10 attend a compliance meeting thinking that I might
11 be named the ADA coordinator, but instead I was
12 told by the chair perhaps I could be the ADA
13 volunteer. And I soon learned that, you know,
14 volunteer meant that I did the work because that
15 was my area of expertise, but I wouldn't receive
16 the title.
17 Q And what about the Title VI coordinator?
18 A I think once I went off the compliance
19 committee and they didn't really have a Title VI
20 expert there and instead of giving me those
21 duties, they decided to hire somebody, a new
22 full-time employee to come in and work for Paula
23 Younger to do that duty.
24 Q And that's not you?
1 A That's not me.

2 Q What about the LGBTQ climate workshop,
3 what were you alleging with respect to that?
4 A Well, I heard that the upcoming
5 department head meeting that the county had
6 contracted with an outside person or persons to
7 do the LGBTQ training for department heads, a
8 training that I already was providing and had the
9 expertise to provide. And so it was just another
10 one of those really insulting kinds of situations
11 where, you know, you could have done the work for
12 free and you would have been willing to do the
13 work for free because you love doing the work,
14 but instead of giving you the opportunity to do
15 the work, they hired someone else. And I
16 remember sitting through that training and having
17 to very politely and discretely correct one of
18 their slides because they hadn't updated it.
19 They hadn't updated the state protections for
20 gender identity.
21 Q And what about the new office space for
22 the Office of Human Rights?
23 A Well, when I first came here, Mr. Mareane
24 informed me that his plan was for the Office of
1 Human Rights, which was not in a handicap

2 accessible site, was slated to move to what was
3 called the Sustainability Center which is part,
4 in a county office. But Office of Human Rights
5 is currently not situated in a building owned by
6 the county. So I pay an enormous amount of rent,
7 the county does, for my office space. And the
8 plan was for the Office of Human Rights to move
9 to a county office which was soon to become
10 available or made available. And it was even
11 part of the county administrator's goals for the
12 year 2016. And after Miss Pryor resigned from
13 the commission, I no longer received any kind of
14 updates about the status of that, of the
15 transition. And more recently the county
16 administrator just signed a long-term lease.
17 Before he retired he signed a long-term lease on
18 the property that we have been in for all this
19 time.
20 Q And that property is not accessible?
21 A No.
22 Q What about the next item on your list,
23 source of income protection?
24 A Well, this came up at a legislature
1 meeting. I was doing a presentation and I was

2 describing for legislators -- that might have
3 been a budget presentation. I was describing
4 that the Office of Human Rights and the Human
5 Rights Commission had joined a state wide
6 coalition because at that time source of
7 income -- well, even now source of income is not
8 a state protection under the Human Rights Law.
9 So we were an affiliate of a coalition that was
10 trying to encourage the State Division of Human
11 Rights to add source of income protections to the
12 state law. And what came up after my
13 presentation, a legislator stated on the public
14 record that first of all I couldn't be engaged or
15 I couldn't in some way join such a coalition
16 without the authority of the body. And he
17 inferred that the legislature was currently
18 having discussions about source of income that I
19 hadn't heard anything about. I don't think they
20 were happening in public. If they were, I
21 wasn't, wherever these conversations about the
22 county policy about source of income was
23 happening I was not, I wasn't a voice at that
24 table.
1 Q And what about the last one on your list,

2 the legislation to eliminate the Office of Human
3 Rights? What was your concern in that regard?
4 A Well, there was a legislator who proposed
5 a midnight amendment to completely defund the
6 Office of Human Rights. And while most of the
7 people in the community didn't understand what
8 was going on because so much of the retaliation
9 was going on behind closed doors, I knew that
10 there was a possibility that that one legislator
11 had support. Fortunately there was, you know, a
12 major outcry and people attended the next budget
13 meeting and showed support for the office and the
14 amendment wasn't considered.
15 Q What about all of these examples that you
16 just took us through made you feel like they were
17 retaliatory towards you?
18 A Well, they all happened after Miss Pryor
19 resigned from the commission. And, you know, it
20 didn't just impact me. It impacted, you know, my
21 staff. And it was also during a time when I,
22 when I started seeing that I'm not the only
23 person at the county that is having this
24 experience, but that I saw it as a much broader
1 problem based on what I was hearing and what I

2 was seeing.
3 Q What do you mean by that? What were you
4 hearing and seeing that made you feel like there
5 was a broader pattern here?
6 MR. MCCANN: Objection. It calls for
7 hearsay.
8 HEARING OFFICER: I'm sorry?
9 MS. SALZMAN: You want me to ask the
10 question again?
11 HEARING OFFICER: Please.
12 MS. SALZMAN: What were you -- I
13 might not say it exactly the same way.
14 What were you hearing or seeing that made
15 you feel that this was a broader pattern?
16 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Calls for
17 hearsay.
18 MS. SALZMAN: I'm not asking for the
19 truth of the matter asserted. I'm just
20 asking for --
21 HEARING OFFICER: What she heard.
22 MS. SALZMAN: -- what did she hear
23 and what was her state of mind.
24 HEARING OFFICER: I understand it is
1 hearsay, but I'll allow it.

2 A Well, first of all I would have to say
3 the climate survey. I mean this was the period
4 of time when the climate survey came out and I
5 was pretty astonished that, I mean, it actually
6 confirmed, not only confirmed my own experience,
7 but it helped me realize that I wasn't an
8 isolated incident.
9 Q Was there anything in addition to the
10 climate survey that made you feel there was a
11 broader pattern?
12 A Well, I had, I had conversations with
13 other women of color who worked for the county or
14 were associated with the county. And I found out
15 that they had very similar stories to mine.
16 Q Which women of color in the
17 administration are you talking about?
18 A I'm talking about Paula Younger, the
19 interim county administrator and legislator.
20 HEARING OFFICER: Paula Younger who
21 testified here?
22 A Yes. And Legislator Leslyn
23 McBean-Clairborne.
24 Q What was your conversation with Paula
1 Younger that contributed --

3 interrupting. When was it, if we know,
4 that Paula Yager -- excuse me, Patricia
5 Pryor, when was it that she resigned?
6 MS. SALZMAN: The exact date was
7 August 7th, 2015.
8 HEARING OFFICER: August 7th.
9 MS. SALZMAN: Yep.
10 Q What was your conversation with Paula
11 Younger that led you to feel there was a broader
12 pattern of concern here?
13 A Well, it was actually a number of
14 conversations and I have to say I wasn't the only
15 one who had these experiences with Paula. On
16 many occasions an open kind of settings she would
17 complain about her situation and I always felt,
18 my impression was that she was deeply unhappy.
19 In fact when she ran my screening, my search
20 committee I had a conversation with her on the
21 first, I mean, on the day I was interviewed that
22 lead me to believe that she was really very
23 unhappy at Tompkins County. And I don't know, I
24 later found out that she shared broadly with
1 others that she wasn't very happy in her

2 position. And that on one occasion Miss Paula
3 Younger said to me that she thought Joe Mareane
4 was a racist pig. And that was a time when I
5 wasn't, I was happy at that time. It was a time
6 when I didn't know what the context was and I
7 don't know what Paula's situation was. And there
8 was a time when that kind of changed. Paula
9 stopped kind of complaining about her situation
10 to me and to others once I would say after Miss
11 Pryor resigned which coincided with the hiring.
12 She got to hire a person that reported to her and
13 I think she became more happy about her
14 situation.
15 Q And what about the conversation with
16 Legislator Leslyn McBean that you referenced,
17 what about that conversation gave you concern?
18 A Well, I have to say that the first
19 hostile person to me on the legislature when I
20 arrived was Legislature McBean. She did not
21 support me. She did not support my work. And
22 there was a lot of hostility from the day I
23 arrived in Tompkins County. I've been trying to
24 convince her for a number of years that we want
1 the same thing and that we should try to, you

2 know, collaborate and work toward those things;
3 but I've never, except some public statements
4 that she makes from time to time, I've never felt
5 like she supported me, my staff or my work.
6 Q With that understanding, let me just
7 direct your attention to the conversation you
8 referenced a few minutes ago in your testimony
9 about a conversation you had with Legislator
10 McBean that gave you as I understood you to be
11 saying some belief that there was a boarder
12 pattern here.
13 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me.
14 Counselor, just --
15 Q Can you tell us about that conversation?
16 HEARING OFFICER: Thanks.
17 A Are we talking about volume?
18 Q My volume?
19 A I thought you were giving me the high
20 sign.
21 HEARING OFFICER: Sorry.
22 A Yes. Well, the reason why I preface that
23 because at some point after the Hooks'
24 investigation, Leslyn McBean agreed to meet with
1 me and have a discussion about the Hooks' report.

2 And what came out of that conversation I have to
3 say it's a very isolated conversation, but she
4 really shared with me ultimately, I think it was
5 an hour and 40 minute conversation, but she
6 shared with me some of the struggles that she had
7 also been having at the county. She confirmed or
8 it was her also confirmation that she believed
9 there was a lot of sexism and racism at the
10 county. She told me that we were alike in that
11 as the sole person of color on the legislature
12 she found it really very difficult and that she
13 had to fight to be heard all the time. She
14 complained that when she missed meetings on the
15 legislature, that her colleagues treated her much
16 more harshly than when white legislators missed
17 meetings. And she said that the former, every
18 other former black department head that works for
19 the county had been screwed and shit on, her
20 words.
22 interrupting, but when you get into this
23 type of testimony and it's hearsay and some
24 of the hearsay has been already disputed
1 and denied, I think it's important you

2 bring that witness in because this is
3 pretty inflammatory.
4 MS. SALZMAN: But again just so this
5 is clear and we can discuss it off the
6 record if you prefer, we're not arguing
7 that this is true, that it is for the truth
8 of the matter asserted which would make it
9 hearsay. It's only to go to Karen Baer's,
10 her sense mind. What she believed --
11 HEARING OFFICER: What she believed.
12 MS. SALZMAN: -- at the time she was
13 making these concerns.
14 HEARING OFFICER: And I want that on
15 the record.
16 MS. SALZMAN: That is absolutely.
17 HEARING OFFICER: And it is on the
18 record that this is limited to what Karen
19 thought she heard and what she may believe.
20 It is not by any stretch a validation that
21 it is in any way true.
22 MR. CELLI: We are not litigating
23 that issue in this proceeding.
24 MR. MCCANN: I would also like to
1 make it clear on the record that I had

2 objected to the entire line of questioning
3 and then went forward with Miss Younger and
4 Ms. Baer.
5 HEARING OFFICER: Again that would
6 all be state of mind of Karen, of the
7 Respondent.
8 MS. SALZMAN: Absolutely. We do not
9 in any way intend to suggest otherwise.
10 Q After you sent, we looked at the 2016
11 e-mails you sent Mr. Lane expressing your
12 concerns. I think you testified a few minutes
13 ago that there came a time that you received two
14 letters; is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And I asked if you're referring to the
17 January 23, 2017 letter?
18 A Yes. I received two in the same day.
19 Q And just describe for us what those two
20 letters informed you, what each one informed you
21 of?
22 A Well, the first was a letter from Mike
23 Lane which basically said that we didn't believe
24 anything you said in your complaint and that we
1 were adopting the Hooks' report and everything

2 was going to be dismissed. And that was
3 unanimous or whatever and nobody believed my
4 story. And so it was kind of a closing letter.
5 Q On the Hooks' investigation?
6 A On the Hooks' investigation.
7 Q What was the second?
8 A The second letter was also from Mike Lane
9 and it said basically, I'm paraphrasing, well now
10 that you have other complaints about exclusion,
11 we're willing to hire another attorney named
12 Timothy Taylor to investigate your complaints and
13 so.
14 Q What was your reaction to receiving those
15 two letters?
16 MR. MCCANN: Objection, relevancy.
18 A Well, you know I was very distraught. I
19 mean on one hand, you know, I had just been
20 through the Hooks' report, investigation and it
21 looked like I was going to have to go through
22 that again. And it really scared the hell out of
23 me because the problems that I saw in the Hooks'
24 report and the demeaning, retaliatory nature of
1 it in my opinion made me very not only

2 suspicious, but also concerned that the county
3 has found another attorney that would conduct a
4 sham investigation for the purposes of taring and
5 feathering me and that was my concern.
6 Q Did there come a time when you received a
7 phone call from Mr. Taylor?
8 A Yes. I believe he called my office and I
9 wasn't there, but then I returned his call.
10 Q And so you ultimately spoke to him?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q For about how long?
13 A It was over 40 minutes.
14 Q And what did you tell Mr. Taylor in that
15 phone call?
16 A Well, I told him, first of all I think I
17 asked him kind of like who he was and what do you
18 do. My first interest was are you a conciliator
19 and he kind of said well, I do arbitration. So I
20 was interested in who he was. And then I shared
21 with him a number of my concerns. I told him
22 that I had just been through an investigation
23 which I thought was a complete witch hunt and
24 that completely turned on me and didn't regard
1 any of my concerns. That it was somebody else's

2 story and that I feared, you know, unless I knew
3 exactly what his procedure was that I would be
4 very tentative in, you know, talking with him.
5 Q What did Mr., what did Mr. Taylor say in
6 response to you saying you wanted to know what
7 his procedure was?
8 A Well, at first he, at first he led me to
9 believe that he didn't think it was really
10 important to have a written procedure or that the
11 county, you know, that the county had to have a
12 procedure; and so I did kind of push him on that
13 and eventually he said that he would look into
14 the process that would be acceptable to the
15 county and that he would get back to me.
16 Q Did you ever receive a written
17 explanation from Mr. Taylor about the process he
18 was employing or the protections he could offer
19 you in the course of his investigation?
20 A No.
21 Q And just so we are clear, when you are
22 asking Mr. Taylor for the procedure he was going
23 to follow, can you explain what you meant by
24 that? What kind of information were you looking
1 he provide to you?
2 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Relevancy,
3 unless it was stated to him.
4 MS. SALZMAN: Relevancy? The first
5 charge in the case is she failed to
6 cooperate with the Taylor investigation.
8 question.
9 MR. MCCANN: My objection is not to
10 what he said to her. My objection is what
11 she would have wanted.
12 MS. SALZMAN: I don't understand your
13 objection, but I heard a relevance
14 objection and the testimony is clearly
15 relevant.
16 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, I'll allow
17 the question.
18 A So I'm a federally trained investigator.
19 So the investigations that I do follow a very
20 particular process and I'm very meticulous about
21 that. And what I went through with the Hooks'
22 process didn't look at all to me like a process
23 that I was familiar with. So some of the things
24 that I was looking for was first of all I would
1 have liked to have known if he had any conflicts

2 of interest. I mean, I know that he was getting
3 paid by the county to do the investigation which
4 is already problematic, but I would have liked to
5 know whether he had done work for the county
6 before, whether he had other, you know,
7 relationships with the county or legislators.
8 That would have been important to me. I was also
9 concerned about how long the investigation would
10 take place. If he could give me a ball park
11 figure about how long he intended to spend, what
12 kinds of answers was, what kind of questions was
13 he, I mean, what was the basis of his
14 investigation. I was especially concerned about
15 confidentiality issues because just in my
16 experience alone the county fails to keep at
17 least my information private, okay. So there
18 have been instances where the county has made
19 available what I considered to be confidential,
20 including the, including the Taylor report which
21 was leaked to the press more recently. So I was
22 a little concerned about what kind of protections
23 he was going to give me or anyone who I called as
24 a witness in terms of keeping things
1 confidential. How he was going to do record

2 keeping. What was the standard of proof. How he
3 was going to assess the credibility of witnesses.
4 But the most important thing that I asked him for
5 and I didn't get and I would have, would think
6 should belong to any type of process is
7 protection from retaliation. And I felt really
8 uncomfortable about submitting myself again to a
9 process that resulted in retaliation. I was
10 worried about my staff being retaliated against
11 or anyone who was a witness to discrimination, to
12 actually talk to him about discrimination and not
13 offer any type of protection for retaliation.
14 Q Karen, did you ask Mr. Taylor what
15 protections from retaliation he would offer?
16 A Yes. I asked him for the process and I
17 asked him for the protections. And I would have
18 liked to have asked him for the other things if
19 he had, if he had sent me a written process I
20 could have been able to look at that and assess
21 whether that, you know, answered my concerns.
22 Q If Mr. Taylor had provided you with that
23 written process and answered your concerns, would
24 you have met with him?
1 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Calls for

2 speculation.
3 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, I think
4 you're correct, but I'll allow it.
5 A I think I would. I mean, given if it
6 addressed my concerns, yes, of course I would.
7 But I have to say that I already thought that I
8 had participated. I had sent all of my issues to
9 Mr. Lane. I had sent my resume. I had, was
10 having a conversation with him over the phone. I
11 responded to his written correspondence in spite
12 of never getting a written process.
13 Q And if you had received that written
14 process, would you also have provided him with a
15 face-to-face interview?
16 MR. MCCANN: Again speculation.
17 HEARING OFFICER: Again I realize
18 it's speculation. I'll let the witness
19 respond.
20 A Yes.
21 Q You mentioned that you had some
22 correspondence with Mr. Taylor?
23 MS. SALZMAN: Can we put in front of
24 the witness Exhibits 2 and 3 in the record,
1 the letters dated June 5th and June 9th?

2 HEARING OFFICER: Two is my.
3 MS. SALZMAN: Not the hearing, I'm
4 sorry. The Charging Party exhibits. I
5 should have clarified. Charging Party
6 Exhibits 2 and 3.
7 Q Mr. Taylor wrote you a letter on June
8 5th, right, Karen?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Was that the first time you had heard
11 from Mr. Taylor since your initial phone call
12 with him?
13 A You mean that he communicated to me
14 directly?
15 Q Well, he says in the letter he left you
16 some messages, right?
17 A Yes, that's true.
18 Q And in any of those messages did Mr.
19 Taylor tell you he was calling to tell you what
20 his process was going to be or provide you with
21 the process?
22 A Well, I have to say that I was never in
23 the office when his calls came in and I think he
24 left a couple on the voicemail. But his messages
1 were very similar to this letter. Like he was

2 saying oh, I'm going to be in Ithaca and I want
3 to set up a time to meet with you or to interview
4 you. And I couldn't understand why he would, I
5 knew that he was in Albany. But I couldn't
6 understand why he would make the trip to Ithaca
7 without first, you know, providing me with the
8 process, the written process that I had asked him
9 for.
10 Q Did you return any of Mr. Taylor's
11 messages?
12 A No, I did not. If the message said I'm
13 on my way to Ithaca or I'm coming to Ithaca, I
14 didn't feel comfortable with that. And after a
15 while I felt like he was intentionally trying to
16 not provide me with the written process and
17 trying to, you know, interview me and trying to
18 get my stories and everything without me knowing
19 what the process was.
20 MR. MCCANN: Objection to the extent
21 the answer is nonresponsive to the
22 question. It goes on to give the state of
23 mind of Mr. Taylor.
24 HEARING OFFICER: It was what you
1 felt, not what the truth was?

2 A Yes, that is my story. It's what I felt.
3 HEARING OFFICER: Or as you say your
4 story?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And so then you get the June 5th letter.
7 Did you respond to the June 5th letter.
8 A Yes, I did immediately. Because I love
9 getting things in writing. When I get things in
10 writing, I respond.
11 Q Did you respond to the June 9th letter
12 that is Charging Party Exhibit 3?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And did you tell Mr. Taylor in the June
15 9th letter that you were still waiting for the
16 written process?
17 A Yes. I felt like because of his messages
18 and such that I needed to explain or remind him
19 of the concerns that I expressed on the
20 telephone, and so this letter is basically from
21 the notes that I took from the phone call to
22 convey to him, you know, some of my concerns and
23 the fact that I hadn't received any written
24 procedure or any assurance of protection from
1 him.
2 Q And did your June 9th letter also refer
3 to your requests for conciliation?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did Mr. Taylor ever follow up with you to
6 discuss a conciliation based approach?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you hear from Mr. Taylor at all in
9 any way after you sent him your June 9th letter?
10 A No. Only the issuance of his final
11 report.
12 Q You can set those letters aside. Did
13 there come a time after Mr. Taylor's final report
14 that you were served with the charges that began
15 this proceeding, Karen?
16 A I'm sorry?
17 Q Did there come a time after Mr. Taylor
18 finished his report when you were served with the
19 charges that began this proceeding?
20 A Yes.
21 MS. SALZMAN: Can we have Hearing
22 Officer Exhibit 1, Mr. Hearing Officer?
23 HEARING OFFICER: Are you talking
24 about Hearing Officer Exhibit 1?
1 MS. SALZMAN: I am, thank you.

2 Q Do you see, Karen, Charge one,
3 specification one alleges that you failed and
4 refused to fulfill your duties because you failed
5 and refused to cooperate in the investigation
6 conducted by Mr. Taylor; do you see that charge?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you ever refuse to participate in Mr.
9 Taylor's investigation?
10 A No.
11 Q When you asked Mr. Taylor to see his
12 written process before you sat down with him for
13 a face-to-face interview, did you make that
14 request in good faith?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you believe that in making that
17 request you were refusing to participate in his
18 investigation?
19 A No.
20 Q Let's take a look at specification two.
21 This one charges you with breach of your duties
22 for resigning from the workforce diversity and
23 inclusion committee in June of 2017. Do you see
24 that specification?
1 A Yes.
2 Q And that's the WDIC that we've been
3 referring to at various points throughout the
4 testimony, right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q How did you come to be a member of the
7 WDIC?
8 A I volunteered to serve.
9 Q Was being a member of the WDIC in your
10 job description?
11 A No.
12 Q Was being a member of the WDIC in your
13 charter powers?
14 A No.
15 Q Did your supervisor, Mr. Mareane, ever
16 direct you to serve on the WDIC?
17 A No.
18 Q Did anyone ever direct you to serve on
19 the WDIC?
20 A No.
21 MS. SALZMAN: Can we have Charging
22 Party Exhibit 16 please.
23 Q Charging Party Exhibit 16, Karen, is that
24 the e-mail you sent to Mike Lane to let him know
1 that you were resigning from the WDIC?

2 A Yes.
3 Q And does that exhibit also contain Mr.
4 Lane's response to your resignation?
5 A Yes, it does.
6 Q When you sent that e-mail to resign, did
7 you think you were failing to fulfill one of your
8 job duties?
9 A No.
10 Q After you sent that e-mail, did your
11 supervisor, Mr. Mareane, tell you that you could
12 not resign from the WDIC?
13 A No.
14 Q Did he tell you that it was a failure of
15 your duties to resign from the WDIC?
16 A No.
17 Q Did he tell you it was insubordinate to
18 resign from the WDIC?
19 A No.
20 Q Did Mr. Lane tell you you could not
21 resign from the WDIC?
22 A No.
23 Q Did anyone tell you you could not resign
24 from the WDIC?
1 A No.
2 Q Did anyone tell you that it was a breach
3 of your duties to resign from the WDIC?
4 A No.
5 Q Have other county employees ever resigned
6 from the WDIC before their term expired?
7 A Yes.
8 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT Q WAS MARKED
10 Q Showing you a document, Karen, that has
11 been marked as Exhibit Q. Is this a Tompkins
12 County document?
13 A It certainly looks like one. I think
14 I've seen it on the website.
15 MS. SALZMAN: We'll offer Exhibit Q
16 into evidence.
17 HEARING OFFICER: What is it?
18 MS. SALZMAN: County advisory board
19 vacancies dated September 5th, 2017.
20 HEARING OFFICER: What are you
21 demonstrating by this so I know?
22 MS. SALZMAN: As an offer of proof
23 that there are many vacancies on the WDIC
24 and other county committees with unexpired
1 terms, and that as far as we know none of

2 those employees are being disciplined for
3 not completing their terms, but Ms. Baer
4 is.
5 HEARING OFFICER: Let me take a look
6 here. Well, starting off at the top, give
7 me an example how that demonstrates this?
8 It says advisory board indigent
9 representation, see designation, at large
10 expires 12/31/17. Now from this document I
11 don't know if that is filled, not filled,
12 people resigned, people --
13 MS. SALZMAN: Well, the document is
14 entitled county advisory board vacancies.
15 It's a list of vacancies on the county
16 boards and committees that currently, or
17 that existed as of September 5th, 2017.
18 HEARING OFFICER: Oh, these are all
19 the vacant. I'm with you. Thank you.
20 MR. MCCANN: I object on the basis I
21 thought you were going to, how does this
22 demonstrate resignations?
23 HEARING OFFICER: It doesn't.
24 MS. SALZMAN: It demonstrates
1 vacancies.
2 HEARING OFFICER: It doesn't
3 demonstrate people who have resigned and
4 not been disciplined is what I suppose, but
5 this document doesn't say that.
6 MS. SALZMAN: Well, I would like to
7 elicit witness testimony about this
8 document and hear what the witness has to
9 say rather than --
10 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Well so far
11 it's marked for identification.
12 MS. SALZMAN: If I can have her
13 testify about it, that's great.
14 MR. MCCANN: You say it's in
15 evidence?
16 HEARING OFFICER: I say it's been
17 marked for identification.
18 MR. MCCANN: Marked for
19 identification.
20 Q Karen, what does this chart show?
21 A Well, these are a list of all the county
22 boards and commissions. And if you look at page
23 two, you'll see the workforce diversity and
24 inclusion committee.
1 Q That's the WDIC we've been discussing?

2 A Yes. And I know that these are three
3 year terms. You can see that some terms are set
4 aside for county staff and some are set aside for
5 community members. And there's even a legislator
6 vacancy. So there should be I think normally
7 three legislators that serve on the WDIC and only
8 two currently so there is a vacancy there in the
9 legislator column.
10 Q Does this chart demonstrate that some
11 people left the committee prior to completing
12 their term?
13 MR. MCCANN: Objection. Foundation
14 of the witness's knowledge.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Do you know?
16 Q Do you know?
17 A Well, according to the chart. If they
18 are a three year term and this is a vacancy that
19 ends in December of this year, then that's an
20 unexpired term.
21 HEARING OFFICER: But the question is
22 really going to do you know by virtue of
23 analysis of this document who has resigned
24 from a term which had yet to be fulfilled?
1 A No, because I don't know which term is

2 associated with which member. But I do know
3 sitting on the WDIC that for the most part people
4 also had unexpired terms because they either
5 moved out of town or, but I don't, this chart in
6 itself doesn't --
7 HEARING OFFICER: Do we need this
8 chart?
9 MS. SALZMAN: We don't need the
10 chart. Karen, we'll set it aside.
11 A I think it's interesting.
12 MR. CELLI: That's not admitted?
13 HEARING OFFICER: Not admitted,
14 correct.
15 Q Let me ask you a question instead, Karen.
16 Have you ever heard of any other county employee
17 being brought up on disciplinary charges from
18 resigning from the WDIC or any other county
19 committee?
20 A No.
21 Q Let's go on to the third specification
22 which is also about resigning from a committee,
23 this time the compliance committee. Do you see
24 that specification?
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q How did you become a member of the
3 compliance committee?
4 A I volunteered to serve.
5 Q Was being a member of the compliance
6 committee in your job description?
7 A No.
8 Q Was being a member of the compliance
9 committee listed in your charter duties and
10 powers?
11 A No.
12 Q Did your supervisor Mr. Mareane ever
13 order you to serve on the compliance committee?
14 A No.
15 Q Did anyone ever order you to serve on
16 compliance committee?
17 A No.
18 Q When did you resign from the compliance
19 committee?
20 A October, August.
21 Q Let's take a look at a document to
22 refresh your recollection.
23 MS. SALZMAN: Can we see Charging
24 Party Exhibit 7, Mr. Hearing Officer.
1 Q He's going to put another document in

2 front of you.
3 MR. MCCANN: What number?
4 MS. SALZMAN: Seven.
5 HEARING OFFICER: Seven. Charging
6 Party 7.
7 Q Is this an e-mail chain you exchanged
8 with Paula Younger about your resignation from
9 the compliance committee?
10 A Yes, I recall this.
11 Q And does this document, Exhibit 7,
12 refresh your recollection about when you resigned
13 from the compliance committee?
14 A Yes. That would be August 25th, 2015.
15 Q That's more than two years before you
16 received the charges in this case, correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q In that two year period from when you --
19 MR. MCCANN: What document are you
20 looking at?
21 MS. SALZMAN: Charging Party Exhibit
22 7.
23 Q From the time --
24 HEARING OFFICER: Hold up just for a
1 second. Let counsel get to that document.

2 MR. MCCANN: I'm sorry. It was a
3 resignation document. Because I'm looking
4 at it and listening to your question and
5 there was a disconnect so I'm not sure it
6 relates.
7 MS. SALZMAN: I'm not sure there is a
8 pending question right now, is there?
9 MR. MCCANN: My question is what was
10 the question and what was the document that
11 referred to a resignation?
12 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. The document
13 is a two page document, was Charging Party
14 7 from Karen.
15 MR. MCCANN: I thought the question
16 was resignation from the committees. This
17 document --
18 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. This was
19 used to refresh memory as to when Karen
20 resigned from, which committee now? And it
21 goes on the second page to the bottom.
22 MR. MCCANN: Yeah. And where does it
23 say that you resigned?
24 A It has the date.
1 HEARING OFFICER: August 25th of

2 2015.
3 MR. MCCANN: Resignation?
4 HEARING OFFICER: From the OHR
5 committee.
6 MR. MCCANN: That's in the August
7 25th e-mail?
8 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. Should be on
9 the second page bottom.
10 Q Let me ask you this, Karen --
11 MR. MCCANN: No. Let's finish this
12 out.
13 MS. SALZMAN: No. I would like to
14 ask my witness a question because --
15 MR. MCCANN: I'm talking with the
16 hearing officer, not you, Counselor.
17 MS. SALZMAN: -- you are making an
18 objection about the content of the document
19 so let me ask the witness about it.
20 MR. MCCANN: The hearing officer runs
21 the hearing, not you, Zoe.
22 HEARING OFFICER: Let me break up
23 what looks to be a good fight. I think the
24 last thing I'm aware of was that you didn't
1 have the right document.

2 MR. MCCANN: No. It was pointing
3 out, I was looking for it and then I heard
4 document about resignation so I thought I
5 had the wrong document because I don't see
6 that here.
7 MS. SALZMAN: So let's go through
8 that with the witness instead of your
9 argument about it.
10 MR. MCCANN: Zoe. Wait a minute.
11 Q Directing your attention --
12 MR. MCCANN: Wait a minute. I have
13 an objection to the hearing officer. I'm
14 talking to him. I don't need you to
15 lecture me.
16 HEARING OFFICER: Okay, look --
17 MS. SALZMAN: I would like to finish
18 the examination of my witness.
19 HEARING OFFICER: Let's go off the
20 record.
21 MS. SALZMAN: I'm almost done.
22 HEARING OFFICER: I can't believe
23 that.
24 MS. SALZMAN: It's a fact. I would
1 have been done by now if I could have just

2 finished what I thought was a fairly
3 straight forward line of questioning.
4 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Finish,
5 Counselor.
6 Q When you sent your August 25th, 2015
7 e-mail to Paula, did you intend to inform her
8 that you were resigning from the compliance
9 committee?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did she later in this e-mail chain
12 express some confusion to you about understanding
13 that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And did you respond to her on September
16 18th, 2015, quote, please consider me unable to
17 participate in either committee?
18 A Correct.
19 Q From the time that you sent those e-mails
20 in August and September of 2015 until you
21 received the charges in this case, did anyone
22 ever tell you that it was a breach of your duty
23 to resign from the compliance committee?
24 A No.
1 Q Did Miss Younger say anything in the

2 e-mail we just looked at in Exhibit 7 to say it
3 was improper or wrong to leave the compliance
4 committee?
5 A No.
6 Q Did Mr. Mareane, your boss, ever tell you
7 you could not resign from the compliance
8 committee?
9 A No.
10 Q Did you continue to do compliance work
11 for the county even though you weren't on the
12 committee?
13 A Absolutely. Both for the compliance and
14 WDIC. Those are very well integrated activities
15 that my office is involved with including when I
16 came to Tompkins County I drafted the county's
17 limited English proficiency plan and brought it
18 into compliance which falls under the compliance
19 umbrella. And so even after I resigned, I was
20 charged with implementing that policy which I was
21 doing and also providing quite a bit of training
22 for county departments, also city departments
23 about how to serve persons with limited English
24 proficiency.
1 Q Let's move on briefly to Charge 2 which

2 charges you with being insubordinate and refusing
3 to abide by a January 23rd, 2017 directive to
4 cooperate in Mr. Taylor's investigation. Do you
5 see that charge?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Between the date that you received that
8 January 23rd, 2017 letter and the date you
9 received the charges in this case, did Mr. Taylor
10 ever tell you that your request for a written
11 description of his process was insubordinate?
12 A No.
13 Q Between January 23rd, 2017 and the date
14 you received the charges in this case, did Mr.
15 Mareane ever tell you that your request for a
16 written description of Mr. Taylor's process was
17 insubordinate?
18 A No.
19 Q Did anyone ever tell you prior to
20 receiving the charges in this case that your
21 request for Mr. Taylor's written procedures was
22 insubordinate?
23 A No.
24 Q Did anyone ever order you to sit for a
1 face-to-face interview with Mr. Taylor before you

2 received his written process?
3 A No.
4 Q Let's look briefly at Charge 3, the
5 dysfunctional environment charge. Was there a
6 dysfunctional environment at the Office of Human
7 Rights under your leadership?
8 A No.
9 Q Was the Office of Human Rights ever
10 unable to fulfill its duties during the time that
11 you've been director?
12 A No.
13 Q Were you ever unable to fulfill your
14 duties as director?
15 A No.
16 Q During the time that Mr. Taylor was
17 appointed to investigate in January 2017 and the
18 present, can you give us just some examples of
19 the work you and your office were doing in 2017
20 only?
22 MS. SALZMAN: There's a charge that
23 allegations that, quote --
24 HEARING OFFICER: Dysfunctional.
1 MS. SALZMAN: -- it can no longer

2 carry out its functions and she can no
3 longer carry out her duties.
4 HEARING OFFICER: And you're going to
5 have your witness testify as to why she
6 believes her office was functional and
7 fulfilling her duties?
8 MS. SALZMAN: Yeah.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Fair question.
10 MS. SALZMAN: And I'm not going to
11 spend a lot of time on this, but I'm really
12 at the end.
13 A Because I would need a lot of time
14 because that was a very heavy period of
15 productivity for the Office of Human Rights. Not
16 only had we drafted the model ban the box law,
17 but also the source of income law and all the
18 materials related to PR and getting out to the
19 public, which included a poster, a flyer in order
20 to educate people about the issue. The office
21 had also created earlier in the year the safe
22 space tool kit which we were very proud of and
23 which helped public safety and corrections
24 agencies to best practices for their policies
1 related to LGBTI inmates and employees. We did a

2 number, I did a number of, I was a guest lecturer
3 at Cornell University Law School for the summer
4 program. The office was involved in, you know,
5 we just finished our 29th annual human right arts
6 competition event K through 12. I drafted a
7 joint statement with the Ithaca City School
8 District when the Trump administration limited
9 protections for transgender students. I did a
10 number of technical assistance for agencies
11 around the community. For example Tompkins
12 Community Action asked me to assist them in
13 developing an assistance animal policy for their
14 properties. I mean, shall I go on?
15 Q I think that is enough for purposes of
16 giving some examples. During all of this time
17 had anyone told you that you were not fulfilling
18 your job duties and responsibilities before you
19 received the charges in this case?
20 A No.
21 Q And during all of this time before you
22 received the charges in your case had anyone ever
23 told you that the Office of Human Rights was not
24 fulfilling its duties and responsibilities?
1 A No.
2 Q When you raised your concerns in 2015 and
3 2016 about discrimination and retaliation, did
4 you have a reasonable good faith belief for
5 raising those concerns?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q Did you have a reasonable good faith
8 belief that you were being discriminated and
9 retaliated against on the basis of your race and
10 sex?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What happened when you were served with
13 the charges in this case, Karen? Let me take you
14 back. Withdraw that question for a minute.
15 We'll get there in one moment and we really will
16 be done. But tell me briefly from between the
17 time the Taylor report was finished in July and
18 when you received the charges in this case, what
19 if anything were you doing in that period of
20 time? I guess it's August and September of 2017.
21 A Well, we were actively trying to get
22 support for not only ban the box, but also source
23 of income protections. And which led to an OpEd
24 piece that I wrote in the Voice, the Ithaca Voice
1 in order to let the community know that the

2 Office of Human Rights was working on this issue
3 and to try to get support, grassroots support
4 from the community and to get them to encourage
5 the legislature to think about supporting source
6 of income.
7 MS. SALZMAN: Let me stop you on the
8 OpEd for a minute and just ask if we can
9 have this marked. Are we up to R?
10 Actually we're up to R. Oh, wait. Q was
11 not admitted, so do you go back to Q?
12 MR. CELLI: Yes, that's been our
13 practice.
14 (RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT Q WAS MARKED
16 Q And if you can tell us, Karen, Exhibit Q
17 that is currently before us, is that the OpEd you
18 were just describing?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you wrote this OpEd?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 MS. SALZMAN: We offer it into
23 evidence.
1 HEARING OFFICER: What is the

2 relevancy?
3 MS. SALZMAN: She continued to voice
4 concerns about retaliation and
5 discrimination in the article.
7 MR. MCCANN: But this article appears
8 after she was notified by the county that
9 they wanted to terminate her.
10 MS. SALZMAN: But before she received
11 the charges.
12 MR. MCCANN: No, but she was
13 notified.
14 HEARING OFFICER: And you'll make
15 that argument certainly in your post
16 hearing submissions, so I'll allow the
17 document.
18 Q Karen, did you see anything in this OpEd
19 about your concerns for the county's support or
20 lack of support for your work?
21 A I think, may I read something?
22 Q Let me ask you this, just to get us right
23 to the section I'm asking about to save time.
24 Did you write, quote, OHR has struggled to get
1 support for its bringing human rights home

2 initiative from county officials. At every turn
3 we have been met with strong resistance taking
4 place for the most part behind closed doors. Did
5 you write that?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q And what did you intend to convey by
8 that?
9 MR. MCCANN: Objection, the relevancy
10 of what she intended as opposed to what she
11 conveyed?
12 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah. I think it's
13 right there in the article.
14 MS. SALZMAN: I'm going to argue it's
15 another complaint in good faith about
16 exclusion.
17 Q All right. Did you do anything else in
18 this time period before you were served with the
19 charges?
20 A Yes. During my budget presentation, I
21 believe it was September of 2017, the county
22 required a slide that's called major influences
23 where most departments describe what the major
24 barriers are to the work that they do or at least
1 that's how I interpret the slides. And I used it

2 as an opportunity to convey to the legislators
3 that the major barrier that my office faced and
4 that my staff faced was a pattern and practice of
5 discrimination and retaliation based on race and
6 sex.
7 MR. MCCANN: Same objection as
8 before. The question doesn't call for the
9 objection, the answer does based upon
10 relevancy. And again post dates Ms. Baer
11 being notified of the county's intentions.
12 MS. SALZMAN: But it predates.
13 HEARING OFFICER: It predates the
14 charges, but I'll allow the document but I
15 know what you're saying. I know what
16 you're objecting to.
17 MS. SALZMAN: All right.
18 Q And then after this OpEd you describe and
19 this budget presentation, you were served with
20 the charges in this case, correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And what happened when that happened?
23 What happened when you were served with the
24 charges in the case? I'm sorry.
1 A Well, I was sitting in my office. All my

2 staff was present. I think the county had sent a
3 scout to see whether we were in our offices from
4 the IT department. And then immediately
5 thereafter --
6 HEARING OFFICER: I'm going to ask
7 that that comment be stricken sent scouts
8 to. Do you have any basis for that?
9 A Yes. Somebody from IT came in the office
10 and stood in the middle of our hallway and kind
11 of said oh, is everything okay in here and I said
12 yeah. We all thought it was kind of odd, but.
13 Q Let's do this, Karen. I know this was
14 obviously an upsetting day for you, right?
15 A Uh huh.
16 Q Let me just ask you one leading question
17 if I may and we'll end with this area. On the
18 day you're describing when you were in your
19 office, were you served with the charges in this
20 case that we just reviewed together, Hearing
21 Officer Exhibit 1?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Karen, let me ask you one final question.
24 Do you believe that notwithstanding everything
1 that has happened you can still be an effective

2 director of the Office of Human Rights in
3 Tompkins County?
4 A I would say absolutely. I think I've
5 proven, I have a track record which proves that I
6 even under great adversity I can be highly
7 effective and efficient. I have built bridges
8 that have been burned many times and I'm quite
9 proud of that. I'm willing to work with anybody
10 who is willing to treat me with respect and
11 appreciate the work that I do. So when I look
12 back at Mr. Mareane's performance review of me,
13 that's who I see. That's who I am. Everyone who
14 works with me closely knows that I'm that person.
15 And I think my boss, Mr. Mareane, he got it right
16 the first time. And I think I still have a lot
17 to offer. I love this work. I love my staff and
18 I want to be reunited with them. I know that
19 they love the work that we're doing. And my hope
20 is that with the new administration and the new
21 legislature that they could somehow embrace the
22 work that we want to do and not find it
23 threatening and it wouldn't take, it really
24 doesn't take much. It just takes a little
1 respect, a little understanding and I'm good to

2 go. But most importantly, what concerns me most
3 about this whole situation is the chilling effect
4 that what's happening to me will have on the
5 county workforce. And I would hope that I could
6 be reinstated in order to, to at least limit that
7 chilling effect for people who find themselves in
8 the workplace and they have issues and they want
9 to complain about it, whether it's discrimination
10 or otherwise. And I would hope that we could
11 actually consider conciliation. I mean, I've
12 been asking for it all along the way. And I
13 really think that Tompkins County has a lot to
14 benefit if the Office of Human Rights exists and
15 I'm the director. And I'm willing to work with
16 anybody who, who wants to give me a fair
17 opportunity and that I can have conversations
18 with people so that we can move forward and find
19 mutual benefits and mutual understanding. Yes,
20 to answer your question. Whoa.
21 (LIGHTS WENT OUT.)
22 HEARING OFFICER: I know there was
23 something about the lights. If everything
24 is working, you can finish your testimony.
1 MS. SALZMAN: I think that was it.

2 MR. CELLI: You want to make your
3 motion, Mr. McCann?
4 MR. MCCANN: Yes. I will repeat the
5 motion I made off the record to the hearing
6 officer that the hearing be adjourned in
7 order to allow an opportunity to review the
8 facts behind the testimony given today
9 relating back to 2015, 2016 as well as the
10 litigation of the complaint that has been
11 presented for investigation to Timothy
12 Taylor that the Respondent declined to
13 participate in. I did not think it was
14 appropriate for those issues to be
15 litigated in this forum. The hearing
16 testimony went forward in any event and I'm
17 not sufficiently familiar with certainly
18 the 2015 events or the allegations made
19 against Pat Pryor in particular or the
20 comments attributed to Paula Younger or
21 Leslyn McBean-Clairborne I'm hearing for
22 the first time.
23 In order to adequately prepare cross
24 examination for this witness I need an
1 opportunity to explore those areas with a

2 representative of the county that would
3 have knowledge and information about that.
4 Having said that, I indicated in the
5 off-the-record discussion I would be
6 certainly amenable to completing the day
7 with the additional witnesses that the
8 Respondent would like to call
9 notwithstanding the need to adjourn in
10 order to cross examine the Respondent.
11 HEARING OFFICER: Response please to
12 the motion?
13 MS. SALZMAN: Thank you. We object
14 to the request to adjourn to allow the
15 county additional time to prepare its cross
16 examination of the Respondent. That is
17 highly unusual and improper to request in
18 the middle of a hearing and it is purely to
19 gain tactical advantage in this case. The
20 idea that Ms. Baer's testimony was a
21 surprise is completely unfounded.
22 Our answer in this case, which is
23 marked as Hearing Officer Exhibit 4 and is
24 dated October 25th, 2017 and was sent to
1 both Mr. Lane and Mr. McCann, representing

2 the county, included in detail the
3 allegations going back to 2015 that Ms.
4 Baer made beginning on page three of the
5 answer and continuing with several pages of
6 detailed examples and bullet points all the
7 way through 2016 and up until the present
8 day on page six.
9 In addition on the very first day of
10 the hearing yesterday, December 7th, my
11 colleague, Andy Celli, began this hearing
12 with a detailed opening statement that
13 lasted well over half an hour and also
14 previewed in great detail for Mr. McCann
15 what our case would be and what our
16 client's testimony would be. So there is
17 no basis for a motion to adjourn. It's
18 improper. It is done to give the county
19 additional time to cross examine the
20 Respondent that we did not have in terms of
21 our preparation of cross examination of the
22 county's witnesses. So we object.
23 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. The
24 objection is overruled. I'm going to grant
1 the adjournment. Should in the event you

2 need more time and you have to adjourn,
3 I'll give you of course that same
4 consideration, in other words, the same
5 courtesy. So we will adjourn with the
6 understanding that Ms. Baer will remain
7 under oath. Before we depart for today we
8 will try and finish up with the, I believe,
9 two remaining witnesses.
10 MS. SALZMAN: There are four.
11 MR. CELLI: There are four, but they
12 are short.
13 HEARING OFFICER: And also we should
14 off the record establish another date for
15 that return.
16 MR. CELLI: May I call our next
17 witness?
18 HEARING OFFICER: Certainly.
19 MR. CELLI: Respondent Karen Baer
20 calls Jamila Simon.
21 HEARING OFFICER: And I didn't get it
22 for the record this witness's name.
23 MR. CELLI: Jamila. Middle name
24 Walida, W-A-L-I-D-A. Last name Simon.
JAMILA WALIDA SIMON by MR. CELLI 517
1 J A M I L A W A L I D A S I M O N
6 MR. CELLI:
7 Q Good afternoon and thank you for coming.
8 Miss Simon, are you employed?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What do you do for a living now?
11 A I serve as a civic engagement specialist
12 for the Bronfenbrenner Center for Translational
13 Research at the New York State 4-H office at
14 Cornell University.
15 Q And just a brief description of what you
16 do?
17 A Sure. I engage with educators all around
18 New York State through our Cooperative Extension
19 System through our Land Grant at Cornell.
20 Q Can you tell Mr. Solomon a little bit
21 about your educational background since college?
22 A Sure. I earned a bachelor's degree from
23 Wells College in environmental policy and
24 sciences values with the emphasis on science
1 education and I earned a master's degree at

2 Cornell with a concentration in natural resources
3 also an emphasis in science education.
4 Q Miss Simon, do you hold any positions
5 with the County of Tompkins?
6 A Yes.
7 Q What position do you hold with that
8 entity?
9 A Sure. I serve as the Tompkins County
10 Human Rights chair.
11 Q Is that the chair of the Human Rights
12 Commission of Tompkins County?
13 A Yes, that is correct.
14 Q What is the Tompkins County Human Rights
15 Commission?
16 A Sure. It's a voluntary board of Tompkins
17 County residents that serve and seek to provide
18 opportunities to educate the public to provide
19 outreach and also actually collaborates with the
20 Office of Human Rights.
21 Q And how long have you been on the
22 commission?
23 A I've served on the commission since 2014.
24 Q And how long have you been chair?
1 A I've been chair since 2015.

2 Q And you mentioned the Office of Human
3 Rights. What's your understanding of the Office
4 the Human Rights in Tompkins County?
5 A My understanding is that the Office of
6 Human Rights offers a series of activities,
7 opportunities to outreach and educate the public;
8 and prior, some time ago they were offering the
9 opportunity to enforce human rights complaints in
10 Tompkins County.
11 Q And can you briefly tell Mr. Solomon how
12 the Office of Human Rights and the Human Rights
13 Commission interact with each other?
14 A So the Office of Human Rights and the
15 Human Rights Commission have worked hand in hand
16 at least during the time of my tenure. We've
17 worked together on a number of events. In fact
18 we have an event that opens tomorrow, it's the
19 annual Human Rights arts and poetry competition
20 and our commissioners serve in order to provide
21 judging for that event and also serve to
22 appropriate that event throughout the county.
23 Q Miss Simon, do you know a person named
24 Pat Pryor?
1 A I do.
2 Q And how do you know Pat Pryor?
3 A Pat Pryor was the former chair for the
4 Tompkins County Human Rights Commission.
5 Q And were you on the commission when Miss
6 Pryor was the chair?
7 A Yes. We both served at the same time.
8 Q Did there come a time -- strike that. Do
9 you also know a person by the name of Karen Baer?
10 A Absolutely.
11 Q And how do you know Karen?
12 A I know Karen through her work at the
13 commission, but also through her work at the
14 Office of Human Rights.
15 Q And did there come a time when you
16 conveyed to Ms. Baer concerns that you had about
17 Miss Pryor in her role as chair of the Human
19 A No.
20 Q Did there come a time when you had
21 concerns about Miss Pryor in her role as chair of
22 the Human Rights Commission?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And generally speaking and briefly what
1 were the nature of those concerns?

2 MR. MCCANN: Objections, relevancy.
3 If not conveyed to Ms. Baer.
4 MR. CELLI: Well, we're going to
5 explore that.
7 Q Thank you.
8 A So there were two concerns that I
9 primarily had with Pat Pryor and her serving as
10 chair. The first concern was that she made a
11 number of unilateral decisions and so she would
12 make decisions about the commission and enact
13 them and then communicate them to the commission.
14 She never sought the input of fellow
15 commissioners and she just proceeded to do
16 business under the guise that we were approving
17 of business that she had done and conducted
18 herself. The second concern that I had was that
19 she also used her personal relationships in the
20 work and to the detriment of the commission.
21 Q Did you become aware at any time of any
22 -- or strike that. Did you have any concerns at
23 any point in time about how Miss Pryor in her
24 role as chair of the commission interacted with
1 Ms. Baer at the Office of Human Rights?

2 A Absolutely. There were a number of
3 instances when we had commission meetings and
4 subcommittee meetings when she interrupted the
5 flow of business in order to share her concerns
6 in working with Karen.
7 Q That was Miss Pryor would interrupt the
8 flow of business to share her concerns with
9 working with Karen?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did the relationship between Miss
12 Pryor and the Office of Human Rights, Miss Pryor
13 on the one hand and Karen Baer on the Office of
14 Human Rights on the other hand, did that become
15 an issue of concern to you and the other
16 commissioners?
17 A Yes, absolutely. Because of Pat Pryor's
18 decision to make decisions for the commission,
19 she communicated to outside parties that included
20 county ledge members that we all felt a
21 particular way about working with the office
22 which just wasn't true.
23 Q What, if anything, occurred with respect
24 to Miss Pryor's role as chair of the commission?
1 A Sure. So as commissioners we would

2 discuss if we could move forward with Pat serving
3 as the chair or if we needed to enact some other
4 plan of work in order to achieve the goals of the
5 commission and be able to move forward.
6 MR. MCCANN: I missed that answer.
7 MR. CELLI: You want to read it back?
8 (PREVIOUS ANSWER READ BACK.)
9 Q Who were the other commissioners that you
10 discussed that issue with?
11 A Sure. Kalise Hampton at that time served
12 as our secretary. Amos Malone served as
13 treasurer at that time. And Joe Carthage also
14 served as a commissioner member.
15 Q And did that group of commissioners come
16 to a conclusion about what should be done with
17 respect to Pat Pryor continuing on as chair?
18 A Yes. At that time I served as vice chair
19 and so we came together in order to express our
20 concerns to one another and put together, instead
21 of putting together a vote of no confidence, we
22 put together a letter and forwarded it to the
23 county legislature for them to assist us.
24 Q And what happened next?
1 A We scheduled a meeting and it was one of

2 the most volatile meetings that I've ever
3 attended and we were accused of, basically we
4 were accused and intimidated by the county
5 legislature. They shared with us that there was
6 nothing we could do and we should just move
7 forward and focus on retention, retaining
8 commissioners and also looking for new
9 commissioners through recruitment efforts.
10 Q Did Karen Baer have anything to do with
11 your decision as a group to approach the
12 legislature about Pat Pryor's chairmanship?
13 A Absolutely not.
14 MR. MCCANN: Objection, relevancy
15 then.
16 MR. CELLI: It's all coming together,
17 John.
19 question.
20 MR. MCCANN: I'll wait with bated
21 breath.
22 Q Thank you. Did there come a time when
23 you understood that Ms. Baer had complained about
24 her treatment and the treatment of the Office of
1 Human Rights under the county leadership?

2 A Yes.
3 Q What was your understanding of the nature
4 of her complaint?
5 A It's my understanding that the nature of
6 her complaint was that she was being
7 discriminated against.
8 Q And were you asked to play a role in any
9 way in connection with that complaint?
10 A I was asked to see an attorney and to be
11 able to provide some remarks as being
12 commissioner.
13 Q And who was the attorney, do you recall?
14 A Mr. Hooks.
15 Q And did you meet with Mr. Hooks?
16 A I did.
17 Q Were you, did you meet with him alone or
18 with others?
19 A I met with Mr. Hooks alongside with Leon
20 Lawrence and Amos Malone.
21 Q And Leon Lawrence and Amos Malone were
22 two other members of the Human Rights Commission?
23 A At that time, yes.
24 Q And both of them are African-American
1 people?
2 A Yes.
3 Q What do you recall about your meeting
4 with Mr. Hooks?
5 A Yes. I recall that Mr. Hooks fell asleep
6 a few times during the meeting and that was quite
7 offensive to us. I recall taking notes, copious
8 notes that we provided to Mr. Hooks just to make
9 sure that we were clear about the nature of the
10 conversation because he was sleeping. And I also
11 recall that at the end of the meeting Mr. Hooks
12 was, basically had disclosed to us that all of
13 this was basically because of interpersonal
14 conflict and also that we were ranting during the
15 meeting.
16 Q When Mr. Hooks said that the comment
17 about interpersonal conflict, who was he
18 referring to?
19 A I wasn't sure who he was referring to,
20 but I assumed that it was Pat Pryor.
21 Q That was your understanding?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And subsequent to that meeting with Mr.
24 Hooks, were you given an opportunity to review
1 notes from that meeting?

2 A I was not presented with any notes. We
3 presented Mr. Hooks and his staff with notes.
4 Q And why did you do that?
5 A I presented him with those notes because
6 he was sleeping so it wasn't clear to me that he
7 was going to provide accurate details in terms of
8 what we shared.
9 Q At any point in time did you ever speak
10 with Ms. Baer about your experience with Mr.
11 Hooks?
12 A No.
13 Q By the way, in your work as a member of
14 the Human Rights Commission -- strike that. Did
15 you ever become aware of an investigation by
16 someone by the name of Tim Taylor?
17 A No.
18 Q Was there anything about Ms. Baer's
19 conduct at the Office of Human Rights that
20 interfered with or impeded the work of the Human
22 A Absolutely not.
23 Q Would it be fair to say that she was
24 somebody who was an ally to the Human Right
1 Commission?
2 A Absolutely.
3 Q Why do you say that?
4 A She was a champion for all the work that
5 we did. She presented opportunities to give
6 presentations. She also used the funds from
7 those presentations that she received in the
8 office in order to be able to facilitate
9 activities by the commission. And she just
10 continually came out to support us in any way
11 that she could. There were also a number of
12 extraneous activities that commissioners got
13 involved in and Karen also provided support for
14 those activities as well.
15 Q Just one other set of questions. You
16 described a meeting between yourself and other
17 commissioners from the Human Rights Commission
18 and legislators. I think you said it was a
19 volatile meeting. Do you remember that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did that occur before or after your
22 interview with Mr. Hooks?
23 A That was before.
24 MR. CELLI: I have no further
JAMILA WALIDA SIMON by MR. MCCANN 529
1 questions.
2 HEARING OFFICER: This gentleman may
3 ask you some questions.
5 MR. MCCANN:
6 Q Good afternoon. My name is John McCann.
7 I'm an attorney representing the county
8 legislature and the charges brought against Ms.
9 Baer. When is the last time the commission met?
10 A We just met actually earlier in November.
11 Q And before that when was the last time
12 the commission had met?
13 A October.
14 Q Is that regularly every month?
15 A We take a hiatus, actually we've taken a
16 hiatus the last two summers.
17 Q Other than the hiatus in the summer, has
18 the commission met every month of every year?
19 A Yes.
20 Q You indicate you're chair of the
21 commission. Is there any dispute as to who is
22 chair of the commission?
23 A Not in my mind.
24 Q Are you aware of a dispute in that
1 regard?
2 A No.
3 MR. CELLI: I'm going to object on
4 relevancy. I'm not sure how this is
5 connected.
6 HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow some
7 leeway as you know, but I'm curious about
8 relevancy too.
9 MR. MCCANN: Just following up
10 regarding her background.
11 Q What unilateral decisions did Pat Pryor
12 make?
13 A Pat would make decisions about what
14 activities we were involved in. Who was invited
15 to commission meetings. If she was consulting
16 with Peter Stein on any issues that were
17 involving the commission and that was something
18 that we were jointly making a decision on as
19 commissioners, but she would make a decision and
20 then communicate it back to the commission.
21 Q What decisions?
22 A She would make decisions on who guest
23 speakers might be and then she would also make
24 decisions on what was relevant to the commission
1 and what things, what types of projects we would

2 get involved in.
3 Q Can you give us some examples?
4 A Sure. So in one example where she made a
5 unilateral decision and didn't consult with other
6 folks, we were tasked with working as a
7 subcommittee in planning an event. And instead
8 of doing the, we all came together for that
9 subcommittee meeting in order to plan the event.
10 She decided to do a side bar during that meeting
11 and to talk about her issues that she had with
12 the office and with Karen in particular instead
13 of addressing the issues at hand. And so we
14 spent a lot of time canceling meetings for that
15 reason because we weren't staying on task and we
16 weren't even addressing any of those concerns. I
17 think that when it comes to issues around Pat
18 Pryor, she would utilize a lot of her personal
19 experiences with county legislatures and
20 manipulate those experiences.
21 Q Let me take that one by one. What events
22 did she schedule independent of the commission?
23 A So there were events that she would take
24 advantage at large and then communicate them back
1 in e-mail to us as commissioners.
2 Q Can you give me examples of that?
3 A I can't think of any right now.
4 Q Who is Peter Stein?
5 A Peter Stein was a county legislator.
6 Q Do you know what his role at the
7 legislature was?
8 A What his role, no.
9 Q Did you know that he headed the committee
10 that the Office of Human Rights and the Human
11 Rights Commission worked for?
12 A Sorry?
13 Q Wasn't he the head of the committee that
14 your commission reported to?
15 A What committee? I'm not sure what
16 committee you're referring to.
17 Q Health and human services?
18 A I think that that's debatable.
19 Q Why is it debatable?
20 A Because is he a liaison from that
21 committee? I'm not really sure. I think that
22 that's something that we were trying to find out
23 as commissioners if he was a liaison or
24 self-appointed.
1 Q Did you understand he was the chair of

2 that committee?
3 A Do I understand that Peter Stein was the
4 chair of the health and human services committee?
5 Q Yes.
6 A Sure.
7 Q Why did you think it was inappropriate
8 for the chair of the commission to have
9 conversations with the chair of the committee who
10 gave oversight to the commission?
11 MR. CELLI: Objection to form.
12 Misstates the testimony.
14 A I'm not sure that he was providing
15 oversight or that he was self-appointed or that
16 because they had a relationship that that was the
17 reason why he was interested in the commission.
18 Q Do you think that would be something you
19 should look into before you are critical of Pat
20 Pryor?
21 A We did and that's why I'm saying that's
22 debatable.
23 Q Your answer was you didn't know what his
24 role was.
1 MR. CELLI: Objection, relevance.

2 A You asked me what his role as a county
3 legislator.
5 question.
6 Q I thought you testified you didn't know
7 what his role was, whether he chaired the
8 committee or whether he acted as liaison or what
9 he might be doing when he was talking to Pat
10 Pryor.
11 A I don't know what Peter Stein did with
12 his time.
13 Q Do you think before you're critical of
14 Pat Pryor talking to him, you should have
15 inquired as to what his role was and how it
16 related to her role?
17 MR. CELLI: Objection, asked and
18 answered.
19 MR. MCCANN: I did not get an answer.
20 HEARING OFFICER: What is the answer?
21 A It was answered already. I shared that I
22 didn't know what his role was and that it was
23 debatable about whether he was self-appointed as
24 the liaison.
1 HEARING OFFICER: Whether he should

2 have a conversation with Peter Stein or she
3 should have a conversation with Peter
4 Stein.
5 Q My question was do you think you should
6 have inquired as to the nature of the
7 relationship between those two positions before
8 being critical of Pat Pryor for talking to Peter
9 Stein?
10 A I think that as a Tompkins County
11 resident I can be critical any way, shape or form
12 and that was the lens that I used.
13 Q So without any understanding as to
14 whether Pat Pryor had a proper relationship with
15 Peter Stein, you saw that as a reason for seeking
16 a removal as chair of the commissioner?
17 MR. CELLI: Objection.
18 A I'm not sure where that comes from and I
19 didn't make that connection.
20 Q It's your testimony that's the reason
21 that you --
22 MR. CELLI: Objection. This is
23 augmentative.
24 A Yeah. I think that is you projecting.
1 That's not what I'm saying.

2 MR. MCCANN: Can you let me proceed?
3 MR. CELLI: I don't know. You
4 wouldn't let me proceed.
5 Q What were the reasons for seeking removal
6 of Pat Pryor as chair of the commission?
7 A As I shared, Pat was making decisions on
8 her own and communicating them back to the
9 commission. And there were multiple times in
10 which she used her power and privilege as being a
11 former county legislator and the relationships
12 she had with current legislators at that time in
13 order to maneuver and not provide any information
14 to fellow commissioners. She also interrupted
15 the flow of our meetings and the progress that we
16 were trying to make in the community in being
17 able to advance and move forward and it just
18 wasn't acceptable.
19 Q I'm just trying to follow up on one thing
20 at a time. Right now I'm asking you about her
21 relationship with legislators which you gave as
22 the second reason for criticizing Pat Pryor?
23 A You just asked me what are the reasons
24 that I have a conflict with Pat Pryor or
1 criticism. You're welcome to re-ask the

2 question, but I've answered it.
3 Q You went on to give other things. My
4 question at this point is limited to your
5 relationship with Peter Stein as a legislator.
6 My question is why did you find that to be a
7 basis for seeking Miss Pryor's removal as chair?
8 A I'm sorry. That's what you're saying.
9 That's not what I said. I didn't say that was
10 the basis.
11 HEARING OFFICER: I have in my notes
12 the reason you were seeking Pat Pryor's
13 removal had to do with her making
14 unilateral decisions, one. Pat using her
15 personal relationship which was bad for the
16 Human Rights Committee. I suppose that was
17 a personal relationship with the board, a
18 legislator or legislators.
20 HEARING OFFICER: That's what I have
21 in my notes.
22 Q I understood that to be Peter Stein. Is
23 there anyone else?
24 A Sure. There were other county
1 legislators she had relationships with I'm sure.

2 Q Which ones?
3 A Go through the roster at that time that
4 Pat served with as chair.
5 Q Isn't it true the one you focused on was
6 Peter Stein?
7 A That was one example.
8 Q Were there any others you focused on?
9 A There were lots of other folks she had
10 relationships with.
11 Q Were there any others you focused on?
12 A It wasn't a focus that I had.
13 Q Did you ever voice any concern with any
14 relationship she had with a legislator other than
15 the relationship she had with Peter Stein as
16 chair of the health and human services committee.
17 A I'm not sure what you're asking.
19 Q Did you ever voice that concern?
20 A Voice the concern to who?
21 MR. MCCANN: Can I have the question
22 read back?
23 MR. CELLI: It's pretty far afield,
24 Mr. Solomon.
1 HEARING OFFICER: I'm allowing some

2 leeway with the questioning obviously.
3 We'll have the question read back.
5 A Expressed any concerns to who?
6 HEARING OFFICER: To anybody I guess.
7 A We had a series of concerns as
8 commissioners. Peter Stein was just one example.
9 Q I'd like her to answer my question.
10 HEARING OFFICER: The question is did
11 you voice concerns? We know you did about
12 Peter Stein. Were there others?
13 A We voiced concern to one another, yes.
14 And were there multiple legislators that she had
15 relationships with, I'm sure there were.
16 HEARING OFFICER: And did you voice
17 concerns about those other relationships?
18 A We voiced concerns to one another, yes.
19 HEARING OFFICER: About others other
20 than Peter Stein?
21 A Sure.
22 Q Voiced concerns about who? Which
23 legislators is my question.
24 MR. CELLI: It's been asked and
1 answered.
2 MR. MCCANN: I don't think it's been
3 answered.
4 HEARING OFFICER: She is, not
5 specifically in terms of, other than naming
6 names. Peter Stein. Were there other ones
7 on the legislature?
8 A Jim Dennis. That's run through the list
9 of the folks that were at the meeting that was
10 convened in terms of the intervention for the
11 commission.
12 Q That was after the fact though, right?
13 A That was after the fact so we could move
14 forward because again Pat Pryor was holding up
15 the flow of us being able to move forward and to
16 advance our mission.
17 Q But any concern you had for Jim Dennis in
18 that meeting could not be a basis for having a
19 meeting?
21 Q So what legislators other than Peter
22 Stein?
23 A I think you're reaching and that's
24 something that you're projecting. I haven't said
1 that.
2 Q I'm just asking the question. Who?
3 A Yes. Run through the list of legislators
4 who attended the intervention.
5 MR. CELLI: Mr. Solomon, Mr. McCann
6 is not happy with the answer so he keeps
7 asking it and that is not proper
8 examination.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Do you remember the
10 names of the other legislators --
11 A That's the answer --
12 HEARING OFFICER: -- that you were
13 concerned about other than Peter Stein?
14 A There were a number of legislators. I
15 think that the nature of what I provided is very
16 clear. I had concerns because Pat Pryor was
17 providing detailed information to legislators.
18 HEARING OFFICER: And you are
19 concerned about --
20 A If you want me to name those legislators,
21 I'm not sure I need to name those legislators. I
22 do want to establish is that she had specific
23 relationships with legislators and that was of
24 concern to us because she was utilizing those
1 relationships in order to navigate for herself

2 and not for the commission. And that was not
3 appropriate for representing us as the chair.
4 HEARING OFFICER: And we're not going
5 to get further names from this witness.
6 MR. MCCANN: Apparently not. She
7 doesn't think it's necessary.
8 Q What unilateral decisions did Pat Pryor
9 make?
10 A Pat Pryor made a number of decisions that
11 were aided by county staff. So I'll give you an
12 example. When the gender discussion came up and
13 the gender kerfuffle happened, Marcia Lynch as a
14 public information officer called Pat Pryor
15 claiming that she couldn't reach any staff in the
16 office. And Pat took it upon herself either to
17 reach out, supposedly that's what she shared she
18 did, but then she provided some information back
19 to Marcia Lynch. That is a unilateral decision.
20 She could have come to other commissioners and
21 asked some information and it was inappropriate
22 for Marcia Lynch to over reach anyway and to be
23 asking Pat Pryor any information. That's a
24 unilateral decision. She could have made another
1 decision to say get back to the office because

2 they are making a decision about this particular
3 topic.
4 Q Back to what office?
5 A The Office of Human Rights.
6 Q I thought you were the Human Rights
7 Commission.
8 A We are part of the Human Rights
9 Commission.
10 Q How does she make a unilateral decision
11 in that context?
12 A Because it was a statement that came out
13 of the office.
14 Q Which office?
15 HEARING OFFICER: Human Rights.
16 A The Office of Human Rights.
17 Q How did she make a unilateral decision
18 that in some way prejudiced the commission in a
19 way in which she --
20 A She was serving as the commissioner. She
21 was representing the commission.
22 Q What was the unilateral decision she made
23 that left out the commissioners?
24 A She made a decision to provide some
1 information as the chair as though it represented

2 all commissioners. That was her personal
3 information and that was a personal discussion.
4 HEARING OFFICER: And she presented
5 it as representing you as the whole
6 commission?
7 A Yes.
8 HEARING OFFICER: And what was that
9 text?
10 A It was just about looking, looking at
11 LGBTQ communities.
12 Q Isn't it true that what actually happened
13 there is that a potential mistake in an article
14 that was going to be run was brought to the
15 attention of Pat Pryor by Marcia Lynch?
16 A I'm not sure where you got that from.
17 That is not my understanding.
18 Q What is your understanding?
19 A My understanding is that Marcia Lynch
20 decided there was a mistake and that Pat Pryor
21 corroborated that.
22 Q And Pat Pryor saw that the mistake was
23 corrected, right?
24 A I'm not sure what information was in Pat
1 Pryor's mind so I can't speak on her behalf.

2 Q And this was on the eve of some kind of
3 publication going on?
4 A I don't recall actually.
5 Q How would Miss Pryor go about getting the
6 authority from the commission to respond to
7 Marcia Lynch about this mistake before the
8 publication would actually be made?
9 A I think that anybody who that is
10 representative as a chair, including myself,
11 where you are looking and seeking information you
12 would inquire and communicate with other
13 commissioners. Pat Pryor had each of our cell
14 phone numbers. She had our house phone numbers
15 as well as our e-mail addresses and multiple ways
16 to connect with us.
17 Q So it's your testimony that just by
18 agreeing with Marcia Lynch that this mistake
19 should be corrected she was making a unilateral
20 decision exclusive of the commission and that was
21 inappropriate?
23 HEARING OFFICER: I think I
24 understand enough of this. And I don't
1 know how much is necessary really if you

2 look at the charges themselves.
3 MR. MCCANN: I objected to the whole
4 line of questioning and you went there any
5 way.
6 HEARING OFFICER: Yeah, I know.
7 MR. MCCANN: I'm just trying to
8 figure out what it really was about.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Any further
10 questions, Counselor?
11 Q You indicated that you prepared a set of
12 notes following your meeting or interview with
13 Mr. Hooks?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was that provided to Mr. Hooks?
16 A Absolutely.
17 Q Was everything you thought should be
18 brought to the attention of Mr. Hooks included in
19 your notes?
20 A What was included in my notes was
21 actually a triangulation of notes from Amos
22 Malone, myself and Leon Lawrence who attended.
23 Q Was that triangulation of notes that was
24 provided to Mr. Hooks, did that include
1 everything you thought he should be aware of as

2 part of his investigation?
3 A I'm not sure what you're asking.
4 Q Were your notes complete? Did you say
5 everything that you thought should be said?
6 A Were my notes complete? I'm not sure.
7 Q Let me take you back. As I understand
8 your testimony you met with Mr. Hooks, correct?
9 A Yes. I answered that already.
10 Q I'm just trying to get you back.
11 HEARING OFFICER: You said he fell
12 asleep?
13 A Yes.
14 HEARING OFFICER: And you put
15 together notes so just in case.
16 A Yes.
17 HEARING OFFICER: And the only
18 question counsel is asking were those
19 complete notes of everything?
20 A I think you're asking me to think about
21 where I was in the past and that would be a
22 retrospective, what did I think I thought at that
23 particular time and I think that that's, I'm not
24 sure what the nature of that question is.
1 HEARING OFFICER: The nature of the

2 question I don't think is that difficult.
3 Did you put all of your concerns in the
4 notes or did you leave some concerns out?
5 A I'm not sure what I was thinking at that
6 time and if that was complete.
7 HEARING OFFICER: Okay. That's the
8 best. I see it as nonresponsive, but.
9 Q Do you have any reason to believe that
10 your notes were not complete when you took the
11 time to triangulate the three sets of notes and
12 present them to the investigator?
13 A I'm not sure.
14 Q Did you intend to provide him with an
15 incomplete set of notes?
16 A No.
17 HEARING OFFICER: By the way, how
18 long was he asleep? Was he asleep for the
19 whole meeting?
20 A He was asleep off and on.
21 MR. MCCANN: I have no further
22 questions.
23 MR. CELLI: Nothing further.
24 HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. Good
549
1 holidays.
2 MR. CELLI: Before we call our next
3 witness I'd like to for the record renew
4 our objection to the adjournment. You just
5 saw a very skillful, very knowledgeable
6 cross examination conducted by Mr. McCann
7 on a topic that never came up before at all
8 except in our answer which gave him full
9 notice of all the things that our client
10 was going to testify to almost down to
11 every detail. And I just want to renew and
12 point as Exhibit A to Mr. McCann's very
13 effective cross examination with a lot of
14 information that he clearly has in his can
15 and that would make it very simple for him
16 to conduct and complete his cross
17 examination of our client right now.
18 MR. MCCANN: If I may respond.
19 HEARING OFFICER: You certainly may.
20 MR. MCCANN: The difference is you
21 provided me with a copy of the subpoena of
22 this witness so of course I did some due
23 diligence to try to understand the limited,
24 it was a very limited questioning by you,
550
1 but the potential area of questioning that

2 you might ask, I was prepared for that very
3 limited testimony. It's a different issue,
4 that's a different issue than to respond as
5 I wasn't able to before in terms of your
6 opening statement, I don't think your
7 opening statement given to me yesterday
8 morning, we've been at this pretty much 12
9 hours a day since gives me ample
10 opportunity to respond to prepare witnesses
11 to what your opening statement indicated.
12 MR. CELLI: I'll direct my comments
13 to the chair.
14 HEARING OFFICER: You don't have to.
15 My decision still stands.
16 MR. CELLI: Fair enough. I won't
17 argue with the court.
18 HEARING OFFICER: Better not.
19 MR. CELLI: We'll call our next
20 witness.
21 HEARING OFFICER: Who might that be
22 if I may?
23 MR. CELLI: Her name the Carmen
24 Arroyo.
CARMEN ARROYO by MR. CELLI 551
1 C A R M E N A R R O Y O,
6 MR. CELLI:
7 Q Good afternoon. Miss Arroyo, would you
8 tell Mr. Solomon what you do for a living?
9 A Sure. I have been for the last almost 14
10 years, well actually 15 years the receptionist at
11 the Tompkins County Office of Human Rights.
12 Q And just out of curiosity, how many
13 directors of the Office of Human Rights have you
14 worked with in those 15 years?
15 A Two.
16 Q And one of them is Karen Baer?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And can you tell Mr. Solomon about your
19 duties and responsibilities as the receptionist?
20 A Sure. So as a receptionist I answer the
21 phone. Attend to clients that walk into the
22 office. I pay the bills. Order supplies and I
23 assist my coworkers in anything that they need
24 help with.
1 Q Great. I wanted to focus your attention

2 on, Miss Arroyo, the work you do answering
3 phones.
4 A Okay.
5 Q As part of that work, what is the, I know
6 it sounds like a silly question only a lawyer
7 could ask, but what is the purpose of answering
8 the phones in your job?
9 A The purpose to answer the phone is to
10 make sure that the person that's calling gets
11 either a transfer to the person that they are
12 talking -- that they want to talk to, answer
13 their questions. I do a pre intake over the
14 phone if a person has a complaint. And if the
15 person that they are calling for is not
16 available, I will take a message and forward
17 those messages.
18 Q Okay. And in your role as the
19 receptionist, did you ever have occasion to
20 answer the phone and have it be someone who
21 identified himself by the name Timothy Taylor?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And did that happen once or more than
24 once?
1 A It happened more than once.

2 Q And do you recall anything about those
3 communications?
4 A Well, I keep a notebook. I have actually
5 a stack of notebooks where I write the name and
6 the phone number and the messages of everyone
7 that calls the office.
8 Q Without looking, I see you have a piece
9 of paper in front of you.
10 A I do.
11 Q Just because of the rules of the court --
12 HEARING OFFICER: We will have you
13 just close that up and rely on memory and
14 if something is at issue and that can help
15 you.
16 A I just pulled that out just in case you
17 wanted dates of conversations, dates of
18 conversations that I don't know them by heart.
19 HEARING OFFICER: Of course not.
20 A But I have a list of them.
21 Q So in that folder you kept a list of what
22 exactly?
23 A The times that me personally answered the
24 phone and spoke to Mr. Tim Taylor.
1 MR. CELLI: Maybe we should mark that

2 Respondent's R. Can I see the document? I
3 think we only have one copy. Do you want?
4 MR. MCCANN: Let's just get copies
5 made.
6 HEARING OFFICER: And this will be
7 questioning as pertaining to the dates when
8 Mr. Taylor called?
9 MR. CELLI: Correct.
10 HEARING OFFICER: And what messages
11 he left?
13 Q While we're waiting for the copies, what
14 do you recall about calls that Mr. Taylor,
15 somebody identifying themselves as Mr. Taylor
16 made to the office that you can tell us?
17 A They were the basic. Hi, I'm calling for
18 Miss Karen Baer and please have her give me a
19 call back and a phone number was provided.
20 Q Did at any time Mr. Taylor, or the person
21 who identified himself that way provide any other
22 information other than his phone number and a
23 request for a call back?
24 A No. There is only one phone call that
1 was a different message just in the sense that he

2 asked that I let Miss Karen Baer know that he
3 would like to schedule a meeting.
4 Q And those messages that you took at the
5 office, did you communicate each and every one of
6 them to Ms. Baer?
7 A Yes.
8 Q In the last 14 years or 15 years that you
9 you've been working in the office, have you had
10 occasion to observe how the two directors that
11 you've worked for have interacted with other
12 county officials and other agencies at the
13 county?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And do you have any reason to believe
16 that -- strike that. How would you characterize
17 the way Ms. Baer has interacted with other county
18 officials in your experience?
19 A Karen's a leader. She is a very, she is
20 very respectful. Very outgoing. She's very
21 inclusive. There's not one negative thing that I
22 can say about her.
23 Q Do you have any reason to believe that
24 the Office of Human Rights under Ms. Baer's
CARMEN ARROYO by MR. MCCANN 556
1 leadership at any time was dysfunctional?

2 A No.
3 Q You know what that word means, right?
4 A Of course I do.
5 Q Of course you do.
6 MR. CELLI: I have nothing further.
7 MR. MCCANN: I need a minute to
8 review this document.
9 (CHARGING PARTY'S EXHIBIT 18 WAS
10 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.)
12 MR. MCCANN:
13 Q I've had marked for identification the
14 document that this witness brought with her.
15 First, Miss Arroyo, let me introduce myself. My
16 name is John McCann. I'm the attorney
17 representing the county legislature in this
18 proceeding. I just have a few questions for you.
19 A Okay.
20 Q You brought with you a memorandum to file
21 dated October 31, 2017, re: Timothy Taylor's
22 phone calls to the Tompkins County Office of
23 Human Rights. Is that the memorandum in front of
24 you that we had marked for identification
1 Charging Party Exhibit 18?

2 A Yes.
3 Q And what prompted you to produce this
4 memo on October 31?
5 A October, Friday, October 13 our director
6 was removed from the office. And I decided to go
7 into my notebook when I had some available time
8 and look for the information just because the
9 whole thing was random to me. And I didn't know
10 what was going to come about after she was
11 removed from the office, but I wanted to have
12 what I thought would be needed in case anything
13 arised.
14 Q What was it about the removal of Ms. Baer
15 from the office that prompted you to think of
16 Timothy Taylor?
17 A I didn't think of Timothy Taylor. I
18 thought about everything that had been going on.
19 Q Did you prepare any other memorandum?
20 A Nope. Because I wasn't personally
21 involved with anything other than these phone
22 calls.
23 Q How did you know that Timothy Taylor
24 factored into this at all?
1 A I didn't. I didn't.
2 Q And what prompted you to look through
3 your records of phone calls just for Timothy
4 Taylor?
5 A Not just for Timothy Taylor, but there
6 was conversation of hearings and that's when I,
7 October 31st I created the document.
8 Q What conversation of hearing are you
9 referring to?
10 A The conversation of the public hearing
11 that was going to happen for Miss Karen Baer.
12 HEARING OFFICER: This hearing?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And who did you have that conversation
15 with?
16 A It was a conversation in the office
17 within staff.
18 Q Who would that be?
19 A Kim Cornish, Xavier Ross and myself.
20 Q Did you have any conversations with Karen
21 Baer about the hearing?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you have any conversations with Karen
24 Baer about any phone records you would have of
1 calls by Timothy Taylor?

2 A No.
3 Q Did you have conversations on that
4 subject with Mr. Rusk?
5 A I did, yes. When I started creating the
6 list.
7 Q Did Mr. Rusk ask you to prepare these
8 notes?
9 A No.
10 Q Did Mr. Rusk identify Mr. Taylor to you?
11 A What do you mean identify?
12 Q Let me rephrase that question. Did Mr.
13 Rusk indicate to you that Mr. Taylor's report was
14 going to be an issue in this hearing?
15 A No.
16 Q So again I'm just confused as to what
17 prompted you to think Timothy Taylor, I'm going
18 to check my records?
19 A Because I can't, I'm going to say I don't
20 remember what was the comment that I heard, but
21 something about Mr. Taylor called the office and
22 left a message with someone in the office that
23 clearly stated the process of when the complaint
24 took place he apparently called the office and
1 left the process.

2 Q Mr. Taylor testified yesterday that he
3 did not leave that kind of a message.
4 A He didn't.
5 Q So my question to you is who told you he
6 did?
7 A I don't remember exactly. There was a
8 lot of hearsay going around and I heard a comment
9 stating that he called the office and he left the
10 process with someone. That's when I created the
11 documents because if he would have left the
12 process with someone, that someone would have
13 been me and that didn't happen.
14 Q And he doesn't say he did.
15 A Okay. That's what I said. Hearsay.
16 Q Fair enough. I'm just trying to
17 understand what your thought process was.
18 A Right. So that's actually the moment
19 when I decided to create the document.
20 Q Now is this a record of just the
21 occasions in which you personally spoke to Mr.
22 Taylor?
23 A I personally spoke to him.
24 Q So in addition to the calls referenced
1 here numbered one through five there would also

2 be potentially calls leaving voicemail messages?
3 A Yes. Can I go into this?
4 Q Isn't this the same document?
5 HEARING OFFICER: No, I don't know
6 what is in there.
7 A This is the same document. I just have,
8 see I have copies of the pages where these
9 messages were written and there is one date of
10 one voice message that I wrote down and there is
11 one e-mail that I sent to Ms. Baer on a different
12 date that was also a voice message.
13 Q Okay. Sure. I would like to see those
14 myself.
15 A The pages, the copy of the pages have
16 client information so I --
18 interrupting. Are you trying to establish
19 how many calls total came into this office?
20 MR. MCCANN: Well, that and what I'm
21 also hearing is communication with this
22 witness to Karen Baer about Tim Taylor's
23 calls. I'd like to see that.
24 A So this was a voice message and that is a
1 copy of an e-mail.
2 Q It says client information?
3 A No, that is not client information. That
4 is just a forwarded e-mail. And then, I don't
5 have the copy of the page that was a voice
6 message so.
7 Q Do you have that in your office?
8 A I do have it in the office, yes.
9 Q What would that be again?
10 A It's just one of the pages on my notebook
11 that has a voice message.
12 Q When you say it has a voice message, is
13 it your transcribing it?
14 A Yes. I got the voice message and I wrote
15 it down in my notebook.
16 Q Was the message more than hi, this is Tim
17 Taylor. Here is my number?
18 A Nope.
19 Q That's all it was?
20 A That's all it was.
21 Q Do you recall the date of it?
22 A I don't recall the date.
23 Q Would your notes have indicated the date?
24 A Yes.
1 Q Did you take notes of any other

2 voicemails that Mr. Taylor left?
3 A No.
4 Q And if I read your memorandum correctly,
5 Charging Party Exhibit 18 for identification,
6 there would have been other voicemails, you just
7 don't have a record of them; is that right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And at this point they are deleted from
10 the system from what I understand of your memo?
11 A Yes. That's not a sure thing that there
12 were any. I'm just saying if there, we don't
13 have them.
14 Q But you do recall that there were more
15 than one voicemails?
16 A Well, I have a record of two voice
17 messages.
18 HEARING OFFICER: In addition to --
19 A In addition to these five calls.
20 HEARING OFFICER: So we're up to
21 seven.
22 A Yes.
23 Q There could be more, you just don't know
24 one way or the other, right?
1 A Right.
2 Q Do you recall him being persistent in
3 calling?
4 A He called, like it says on the list he
5 called on January. The message was on February.
6 March he called one time. April he called twice.
7 May one time.
8 HEARING OFFICER: The question to you
9 was would you characterize this as being
10 persistent?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did Mr. Taylor express any frustration to
13 you that Ms. Baer was not returning his calls?
14 A No.
15 Q So I have on here, your memorandum, he
16 called on January 31, 2017, March 7, 2017. On
17 that occasion he actually requested that Ms. Baer
18 meet with him in the upcoming Thursday or Friday
19 according to your memorandum?
20 A Uh huh.
21 Q Because he wished to review her
22 complaint, is that what he said to you?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you convey that to Ms. Baer?
1 A Yes.
2 Q And called again on April 7, 2017, April
3 26, 2017 and May 4, 2017 and you spoke to him on
4 each of those occasions?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q Did you relay each of those messages to
7 Ms. Baer?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And when you received a voicemail or
10 picked up a voicemail from Mr. Taylor, did you
11 always relay that message to Ms. Baer?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You state here that all voicemail
14 messages I received did not substantially differ
15 from the above conversations I had with Mr.
16 Taylor.
17 A Uh huh.
18 Q I take that to mean at a minimum he would
19 call, request Ms. Baer call him back?
20 A He would leave his name, phone number and
21 requested Ms. Baer to call him.
22 Q In any of his voicemails did he, as he
23 did in one of these calls, suggest particular
24 days he would want to meet with Ms. Baer?
1 A No.
2 Q It was just that one call?
3 A Yeah, just the one call.
4 Q And that was the second call?
5 A Yes, on the 7th of May.
6 Q And do you know whether Ms. Baer returned
7 the first call?
8 A I don't think so.
9 HEARING OFFICER: Let me if I may. I
10 have a question. You were taking the
11 messages because Ms. Baer was out?
12 A Correct. She was either out or busy
13 doing something else in the office, yes. We have
14 a general phone number in the office so all the
15 calls come through my line first.
16 Q And did you ever ask Ms. Baer why she
17 wasn't returning Mr. Taylor's calls?
18 A No.
19 Q Did she ever tell you?
20 A Uh huh. I believe that she had requested
21 communication in writing and she had requested a
22 process for her to follow.
23 Q And what is the basis for that belief?
24 A For what belief?
1 HEARING OFFICER: Why do you think

2 that?
3 Q What you just said?
4 A I think it was spoke.
5 Q Ms. Baer told you that?
6 A Uh huh.
7 Q You weren't party to the conversation --
8 withdraw that. You were not party to any
9 conversation that Ms. Baer had with Mr. Taylor,
10 were you?
11 A No.
12 Q To the extent you think she told Mr.
13 Taylor that she wanted a process in writing, that
14 is something Ms. Baer told you?
15 A I think that it was an e-mail that was
16 sent to Mr. Taylor.
17 Q I'll show the witness Charging Party
18 Exhibit 3.
19 HEARING OFFICER: Charging Party
20 Exhibit 3.
21 Q Is that the communication you were
22 referring to a moment ago in your testimony?
23 A Yes.
24 Q So to the extent that you can make any
1 observation what Mr. Baer told Mr. Taylor about a

2 process, you're just reading her letter, correct?
3 MR. MCCANN: I would offer Charging
4 Party Exhibit 18.
5 HEARING OFFICER: Any objection to
6 the phone call?
7 MR. CELLI: No. No objection.
8 HEARING OFFICER: With that any
9 further questions?
10 MR. MCCANN: Yes. I would also like
11 to have marked the e-mail that Miss Arroyo
12 has. Let's get copies first and then I'll
13 mark it.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Counsel has asked
16 to review the documents in the green
17 folder --
18 MR. CELLI: That's fine.
19 HEARING OFFICER: -- to see if there
20 is anything potential he may have a
21 question about.
22 MR. CELLI: Okay. Thank you.
23 MR. MCCANN: Thank you.
24 (CHARGING PARTY EXHIBIT 19 WAS MARKED
2 Q Miss Arroyo, I'm just about done with
3 you. Thank you for your patience. I show the
4 document I had marked as Charging Party Exhibit
5 19 that is a document you handed to me from a
6 folder. It appears to be an e-mail?
7 A Yes. It was an e-mail.
8 Q That is an e-mail that you sent to Ms.
9 Baer?
10 A Yes. Ms. Baer, her e-mail is right
11 there.
12 Q And this, what's the purpose of this
13 e-mail?
14 A It was a voice message that Mr. Taylor
15 left on our phone with his name and phone number
16 and please call.
17 Q And the date indicated here is February
18 1, 2017?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Is there a reason why you memorialized
21 this particular voicemail and not any other
22 voicemails?
23 A No. Just the same reason that I said
24 before when I've heard that there was a process
ELIZABETH BRUNDIGE by MR. CELLI 570
1 left with someone in the office. I made sure

2 that I went back because, you know, maybe I did
3 get the process and I didn't forward it to Ms.
4 Baer. But I checked my e-mail and my notebooks
5 and that's all I found.
6 Q Were you asked to look to see whether or
7 not you had any record of Mr. Taylor?
8 A No. I wasn't asked. I just did that on
9 my own.
10 HEARING OFFICER: That was my
11 understanding, too.
12 MR. MCCANN: Thank you. I have
13 further questions. I would offer Charging
14 Party 19.
15 MR. CELLI: No objection.
16 HEARING OFFICER: No objection,
17 received.
18 MR. MCCANN: No further questions.
19 MR. CELLI: Nothing further.
20 E L I Z A B E T H B R U N D I G E,
1 MR. CELLI:
2 Q Good afternoon.
3 A Good afternoon.
4 Q Can you please state your name and
5 business address for the record?
6 A Elizabeth Brundige, Hughes Hall, sorry,
7 Cornell Law School, Hughes Hall, Myron Taylor
8 Hall. No, sorry. Let me start over. Elizabeth
9 Brundige, Cornell Law School, Hughes Hall,
10 Ithaca, New York 14853. I moved offices and I
11 actually moved halls.
12 Q But you work at the law school?
13 A I work at Cornell Law School, yes.
14 Q If enough people give enough money they
15 will change the name of the school. What do you
16 do, Miss Brundige?
17 A I'm an associated clinical professor of
18 law and assistant dean for international programs
19 at the law school.
20 Q Can you tell Mr. Solomon, who is our
21 hearing officer, a little bit about your academic
22 and professional accomplishments since college.
23 MR. MCCANN: If I may because it went
24 by so quick could I just get your positions
1 again.
2 A Associate clinical professor of law and
3 assistant dean for international programs.
4 Q Can you tell Mr. Solomon about your
5 educational background since college?
6 A Sure. So after college I did a master's
7 of philosophy in development studies at Oxford
8 University and then a JD at Yale Law School.
9 After that I worked for, I clerked for a judge in
10 the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit in
11 Portland, Maine and for a justice of the
12 Constitutional Court of South Africa in South
13 Africa. I worked for an NGO, the International
14 Association of Women Judges based in DC doing
15 work in Africa. And also an associate legal
16 officer for the International Criminal Tribunal
17 for the former Yugoslavia. Then went back to law
18 school at Yale and was a clinical teaching fellow
19 there. And a Bernstein, or an Allard K.
20 Lowenstein fellow in International Human Rights
21 for three years and then came to Cornell.
22 HEARING OFFICER: Obviously this
23 witness is not qualified.
24 Q We can all go home now with shear
1 embarrassment. Your qualifications are

2 wonderful.
3 A Thanks.
4 HEARING OFFICER: We won't ask you to
5 repeat it. Nice job.
6 A Thank you.
7 Q You're familiar with the Tompkins County
8 Office of Human Rights?
9 A I am.
10 Q And how do you know Tompkins County
11 Office of Human Rights?
12 A I think, so I've been in the area for
13 about seven years. I've been somewhat aware of
14 them and their work for a while. I have a human
15 rights background and was so excited when I moved
16 here to learn that there was an Office of Human
17 Rights. And when I started the clinic that I
18 currently teach about three and a half years ago,
19 the gender justice clinic, I was looking for,
20 working, figuring out some projects to kind of
21 have to launch my clinic and ended up partnering
22 with the Advocacy Center of Tompkins County on
23 one of our first projects that ended up taking a
24 life of its own and has been a continuing project
1 in different iterations since then. And in the

2 course of that first semester working with the
3 Advocacy Center, we were working on developing
4 and advocating for the adoption of local
5 government resolutions that recognized freedom
6 from domestic violence as a human right. And it
7 was at that point that our Advocacy Center
8 partners recommended that we reach out to the
9 Office of Human Rights. And so we approached
10 Karen and her colleagues there and told them
11 about our initiative and they were very
12 supportive of it, kind of throughout the process.
13 HEARING OFFICER: Excuse me. We
14 being you?
15 A Oh, sorry. We, me and my students, yeah.
16 So everything that I, much of what I do is in a
17 clinic I do with my students.
18 Q And what is the name of the clinic?
19 A It's the Gender Justice Clinic.
20 Q And so it was through a referral
21 essentially from the Advocacy Center that you
22 ended up going to the Office of Human Rights?
23 A Yes, that's correct.
24 Q Is that the first time you met Ms. Baer?
1 A It was, yeah.
2 Q And have you had any occasion in your
3 role at the Cornell Law School and the Gender
4 Justice Clinic to work with Ms. Baer in the
5 office?
6 A So I have. So we were really excited
7 that this first project that we developed that
8 the Office of Human Rights supported ended up
9 being quite successful and the Tompkins County
10 legislature adopted a regulation that recognized
11 that freedom from domestic violence is a
12 fundamental human right, undertook to initiate a
13 study of gaps and challenges in domestic violence
14 prevention and response in the county, recognize
15 the obligation of the government and the
16 community to prevent and respond to domestic
17 violence. And we began conversations, following
18 that resolution, different localities in Tompkins
19 County adopted similar resolutions, began having
20 conversations how those resolutions could be
21 implemented. And I think as part of that I had a
22 meeting with Paula Younger I think and she
23 recommended that, particularly in connection with
24 an initiative we were planning to undertake to
1 address domestic violence in the workplace, that

2 we think about partnering with the Office of
3 Human Rights. And so I went back to Karen's
4 office and we talked about some of these
5 implementation ideas that we had, that we being
6 me and the Advocacy Center and my students, had
7 to implement these resolutions and it was at that
8 point the Office of Human Rights became our
9 direct partner; and so since then we've been
10 working closely together.
11 Q When did that happen that Miss Younger
12 referred you to the Office of Human Rights and
13 Karen Baer?
14 A So the resolution was adopted in November
15 2014 and then several, the process continued with
16 other localities adopting these resolutions into
17 the spring. So I think it was in the summer of
18 2015.
19 Q And have you had occasion to actually
20 work with Ms. Baer in her role as director of the
21 office?
22 A I have in several ways.
23 Q What can you tell me about that
24 experience?
1 MR. MCCANN: Objection, relevance.

2 MR. CELLI: This is about whether the
3 office is functioning or not.
4 HEARING OFFICER: And I understand
5 that that's still disputed of course along
6 with everything else so I'll allow the
7 questioning.
8 MR. CELLI: Thank you.
9 A Could you repeat the question please?
10 Q Sure. Tell us a little bit about what
11 stuff you did with Ms. Baer, you and your group?
12 A Sure. The most direct work has been
13 several initiatives to implement these domestic
14 violence resolutions that the county adopted.
15 One, we developed a, we being, now I'm talking
16 about we in terms of all of our partners, the
17 Office of Human Rights, the Tompkins County Human
18 Rights Commission, the Advocacy Center and our
19 clinic. We developed a domestic violence in the
20 workplace policy and tool kit following a
21 recommendation that came from the Tompkins County
22 Council of Governments, another governmental
23 body. And so we developed this domestic violence
24 policy and tool kit for public and private
1 employers to use to better support employees in

2 the workplace who are victims of domestic
3 violence. Cornell took this on, actually adopted
4 this as their guide. The Tompkins County Office
5 of Human Rights posted it on their website. I
6 understand the City of Ithaca is now
7 incorporating it into their policy. So that was
8 one initiative.
9 We've also been working on a study that
10 was envisioned in the Tompkins County resolution
11 of gaps and challenges in domestic violence
12 prevention and response. So we have interviewed
13 Karen and her colleagues, Ms. Baer and her
14 colleagues and have collaborated with them in
15 identifying other stakeholders to interview and
16 talk to to gather voices about what some of the
17 real charges are, gaps and challenges in domestic
18 violence prevention and response and what some
19 recommendations are for addressing that. So
20 we've been partnering with Ms. Baer along the
21 way.
22 We also collaborated on a letter that we
23 jointly sent to the Village of Groton expressing
24 concern about its nuisance law and the effects
1 that it had on, or could potentially have and

2 have had on domestic violence survivors and other
3 victims of crime. And we've also collaborated on
4 kind of connecting our local efforts to a
5 national movement of localities that are seeking
6 to adopt, to recognize and implement the right to
7 be free from domestic violence. So Ms. Baer has
8 participated in conference calls with these other
9 folks from around the country who are interested
10 in doing similar things to what we are doing in
11 the Tompkins County. So that's the most direct
12 project and then I've also -- should I talk about
13 anything else.
14 Q Anything having to do with Ms. Baer would
15 be helpful.
16 A So I've also reached out to Ms. Baer for
17 advice in connection with an antidiscrimination
18 case that my clinic took on and are now kind of
19 co-counsel, not kind of, we are co-counsel with a
20 Syracuse Law disability rights clinic in
21 representing a local client in an
22 antidiscrimination case so this was the first
23 case that I had ever taken on. So I reached out
24 to Ms. Baer and she provided really valuable
1 advice about the process and about how we might

2 kind of approach, you know, providing quality
3 representation. I also, Ms. Baer served as a
4 guest lecturer to a human rights course that I
5 taught last summer for undergraduate and high
6 school students. It was a college level course
7 in international human rights and she spoke on
8 bringing human rights home. It was one of our
9 most popular classes I think for the semester,
10 for the three week semester. And I also have
11 served now for two years as a judge in the Office
12 of Human Rights competition for young people.
13 Q So in all that experience you've had with
14 Ms. Baer and the Office of Human Rights, have you
15 formed an opinion about the degree to which the
16 office is or is not an effective office under Ms.
17 Baer's leadership?
18 MR. MCCANN: Objection, to this
19 witness' opinion?
20 MR. CELLI: Yes. I'm asking for her
21 opinion.
23 question.
24 MR. MCCANN: It's not relevant.
ELIZABETH BRUNDIGE by MR. MCCANN 581
1 HEARING OFFICER: And I'll decide how

2 much it may be relevant in that she is not
3 in the day-to-day workings of the office,
4 but has worked with Ms. Baer nevertheless.
5 I'm allowing her opinion to be entered.
6 A Yeah. So, you know, from my perspective,
7 which I recognize is limited to the area in which
8 I've worked and interacted with the office, they
9 have been extremely effective. I think the
10 collaboration we've worked with, you know,
11 through them there's no way that it could have
12 been as successful as it's been so far without
13 their dedication and collaboration.
14 MR. CELLI: I have nothing further.
15 HEARING OFFICER: Counselor?
17 MR. MCCANN:
18 Q Just a few questions. Professor
19 Brundige, you talked so fast this will be quick.
20 HEARING OFFICER: And don't forget to
21 introduce yourself.
22 Q My name is John McCann. I'm the attorney
23 representing the Tompkins County legislature in
24 this case. Just a couple of questions. You
ELIZABETH BRUNDIGE by MR. MCCANN 582
1 indicated that Ms. Baer was a guest lecturer for

2 three weeks last year?
3 A She gave one guest class. It was a three
4 week, three credit course. Kind of an intensive
5 summer course.
6 Q Is that different than teaching the
7 course?
8 A Yeah. I was the teacher for the course,
9 but I invited her to be a guest lecturer and kind
10 of be the teacher for one of our classes.
11 Q How does your position as associate
12 clinical professor of law --
13 A Clinical professor.
14 Q How does that relate to Angela Cornell's
15 position?
16 A She is a professor, a clinical professor
17 of law and both teach in our clinical program.
18 So we are clinical colleagues and faculty
19 colleagues.
20 MR. MCCANN: I have no further
21 questions. Thank you.
22 MR. CELLI: Nothing further. Thank
23 you so much for coming.
24 HEARING OFFICER: And good holidays
583
1 to you and your family.

2 MR. CELLI: We have no further
3 witnesses.
5 MR. CELLI: At this point I think you
6 wanted, Mr. Solomon, to talk about
7 scheduling.
8 HEARING OFFICER: Please while we're
9 all assembled. We are going to need a
10 return date.
12 MR. CELLI: We do want to put on the
13 record a further justification for not
14 extending the hearing further. My
15 colleague and I, my partner and I live and
16 work in New York City. We planned this
17 trip at considerable expense to our client
18 and her family to have us here. Obviously
19 we will come back if it's necessary, but we
20 believe that is an additional basis upon
21 which there should not be an adjournment.
22 MR. MCCANN: If I may just quickly
23 respond. We're coming back anyway based
24 upon the understanding we reached during my
584
1 client's testimony. We had an

2 understanding reached yesterday he would be
3 allowed to leave at 10:45.
4 MR. CELLI: Well, actually what
5 happened was we allowed him to leave at
6 10:45 and he said he would be able to come
7 back in the afternoon and then it turned
8 out he had something.
9 HEARING OFFICER: We don't have to
10 argue about it. My ruling is --
11 MR. CELLI: It's also a little
12 different if we're talking about cross
13 examination of our client as opposed to
14 completing.
15 MR. MCCANN: Yeah, but in terms of
16 your point on your travel, you got to come
17 back.
18 MR. CELLI: One of us does, but now
19 probably both of us do.
20 HEARING OFFICER: Let's get on to a
21 date to reassemble. I'm thinking January.
22 MR. CELLI: Is there anyway we can
23 speed it up? Realize also our client is
24 not being paid at this point. Or you can
585
1 restore her to her position in the interim.

2 HEARING OFFICER: I would leave that
3 to the parties to discuss.
4 MR. CELLI: I mean, if that were to
5 occur, we could schedule it.
6 HEARING OFFICER: Let me try
7 something. Now it's limited to further
8 testimony of Mr. Lane and the cross
9 examination of Karen?
10 MR. CELLI: Correct.
12 HEARING OFFICER: We've come up with
13 a date, a return date of January 3rd and
14 can we shoot for 9 a.m. and any furtherance
15 is the 5th.
16 * * *
17 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
18 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
evidence are contained fully and accurately in the
19 notes taken by me on the above cause and that this
is a correct transcript of the same to the best of
20 my ability.
21 ______________________________
22 DELORES D. HAUBER
23
24
586
1 I N D E X
2 Witness Examination By Pages
Timothy Taylor Mr. McCann 34-81, 165-168
3 Ms. Salzman 81-165, 168-172
4 Paula Younger Mr. McCann 173-190
Mr. Celli 190-251
5
Michael Lane Mr. McCann 252-301
6 Mr. Celli 302-397
7 Karen Baer Ms. Salzman 399-510
8 Jamila Simon Mr. Celli 575-526
Mr. McCann 527-546
9
Carmen Arroyo Mr. Celli 549-554
10 Mr. McCann 554-568
11 Elizabeth Brundige Mr. Celli 568-579
Mr. McCann 579-580
12
13
E X H I B I T S
14
Number Description MKD ADM
15 HO-1 10/13/17 letter of charges 4 71
HO-2 designation of hearing officer 5 71
16 HO-3 report of investigation 5 71
HO-4 10/25/17 answer to charges 5 71
17 HO-5 11/8/17 confirmation of hearing 5 71
18 CP-1 Taylor resume 46 48
CP-2 e-mail 60 63
19 CP-3 6/9/17 e-mail from Baer 64 64
CP-4 compliance program 175 176
20 CP-5 9/17/15 e-mail 178 179
CP-6 agenda for 9/17/15 meeting 180 181
21 CP-7 e-mail thread 184 186
CP-8 authorization-Section 75 hearing 255 256
22 CP-9 picture of legislature 257 263
CP-10 Article 26 from Charter 265 266
23 CP-11 letter to Baer from Lane 276 278
CP-12 1/23/17 letter from Lane to Baer 282 283
24 CP-13 8/15/17 action by legislature 287 287
587
1 Exhibits Continued
2 Number Description MKD ADM
3 CP-14 8/21/17 letter-Taylor report
Adopted 288 290
4 CP-15 diversity/inclusion policy 291 292
CP-16 5/18/17 e-mail from Baer/Lane 295 302
5 CP-17 12/16/14 legislature meeting mins 296 298
CP-18 memo re: Taylor calls 554 556
6 CP-19 2/1/17 e-mail from Arroyo to
Baer re: Taylor calls 566 568
7
8 R-A e-mail 87 88
R-B county policy on discrimation/
9 sexual policy 103 103
R-C workplace climate initiative
10 (Withdrawn) recap/report 125 133
R-C job description 157 158
11 R-D Kenneth Clark LinkedIn page 206 209
R-E progressive discipline policy 218 309
12 R-F memorandum 11/20/15 from Baer 320 322
R-G e-mails 326 330
13 R-H 8/26/16 Baer response 331 332
R-I 9/12/16 letter from Lane 344 344
14 R-J 7/6 e-mail from Baer 354 358
R-K 7/22/16 letter from Lane 362 363
15 R-L workplace survey report 371 375
R-M 1/23/17 letter 377 378
16 R-N Baer resume 402 402
R-O Performance evaluation 407 408
17 R-P Mr. Hooks report 439 440
R-Q (withdrawn) advisory board vacancies 487
18 R-Q Ithaca Voice OpEd 504 505
19
20
21
22
23
24

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1 STATE OF NEW YORK : COUNTY OF TOMPKINS

1 HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Lane, you're

1 write back to her and direct her to continue with

1 Q I see. So you never complained to her

1 legal conclusion. The context of this

1 heard and we'll wait for a ruling.

1 charges are proffered just to be clear?

1 question who has the right to progressive

1 improvement plan with respect to that issue,

1 HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow the

1 Pryor was appointed to the Human Rights

1 A After the fact.

1 chair of the commission from her point of view

1 Pryor continuing as chair, they supported Ms.

1 press release and being able to hold a meeting I

1 Q And she in fact did make a gesture of

1 material. If you would be so kind as to

1 A Could very well be.

1 directed at her by legislators in or about this

1 she writes, quote, "likewise I'm not able to

1 MR. CELLI: I'd like to mark for

1 out about these things and she had ample

1 Q Was there a resolution on that?

1 Q Let's have a look at that.

1 MR. MCCANN: Objection based on

1 participate in your process hoping to reach an

1 Q Well, you were aware that Ms. Baer had

1 questions. I'm entitled yes or no questions,

1 Q And that she was complaining that he

1 things, did you tell her or have anybody

1 HEARING OFFICER: 2015 right?

1 knowledge of or access to the investigatory

1 Q And she points out that she moved her

1 suggestion that we can all move past this and

1 and we determined that he didn't fall asleep,

1 of time you talked about the Hooks' report with

1 attorney communicated with her attorney.

1 about by Ms. Baer, had a copy of that report,

1 MR. MCCANN: Thank you.

1 Q Let me finish the question. When did Mr.

1 MR. MCCANN: What's the difference

1 you're referring to, Zoe, the chain is not

1 prior to this, correct?

1 Q And the workforce climate study is the

1 Q In fact isn't it true, Mr. Lane, that in

1 MR. MCCANN: This is the same

1 have reasons that I want to do it the way I

1 provide information in response to this, you're

1 Q Which are reflected in the October 10th,

1 MR. MCCANN: Please finish.

1 Peter Stein whether he indeed conveyed to me that

1 Q At the end of Ms. Baer's October 23rd

1 Q She didn't participate in them or wasn't

1 document that we've marked as Respondent's

1 groups when discussing diversity and inclusion.

1 MR. MCCANN: Objection, asked and

1 an investigation where he would be the

1 MR. CELLI: And we're going to mark

1 has adopted the conclusions of the Hooks' report,

1 Taylor to investigate, quote, "your claims that

1 HEARING OFFICER: I'll allow it.

1 MR. MCCANN: There's no foundation.

1 HEARING OFFICER: -- I'm going to