Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 3

Case 11-3333, Document 74, 01/26/2012, 509510, Page1 of 301
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME III OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon
TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
22631 Pacific Coast Highway #348
Malibu, California 90265
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Attorneys for Defendants-Appellants,
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME III OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
TABLE OF CONTENTS
JA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
III 65-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 7 – Excerpts from the October 515
25, 2010 Deposition of Susan Kirby
III 65-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 8 – Excerpts from the November 531
9, 2010 Deposition of Mark Evanier
III 65-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 9 – Excerpts from the December 553
III 65-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 10 – Excerpts from the January 581
10, 2011 Deposition of John Morrow
III 65-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 15 – August 31, 2009 Press 599
Release from the Walt Disney Company
III 65-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 17 – May 30, 1972 Agreement 603
between Jack Kirby and Magazine
Management Co., Inc.
III 65-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 18 – 1981 Interview with Stan 609
Lee by Leonard Pitts, Jr.
III 65-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 25 – November 1, 1998 629
Agreement between Stan Lee and
Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
III 65-29 2/25/2011 Exhibit 26 – August 6, 2007 Interview 640
with Lawrence Lieber by Daniel Best
III 65-30 2/25/2011 Exhibit 27 – January 9, 1963 Letter from 671
Stan Lee to Jerry Bails
III 65-31 2/25/2011 Exhibit 28 – Excerpt from Kirby: King 674
of Comics by Mark Evanier
III 65-32 2/25/2011 Exhibit 29 – “Stan Lee Made Up the Plot 677
… And I’d Write the Script” by Roy
Thomas
III 65-33 2/25/2011 Exhibit 30 – Two-page synopsis of The 692
Fantastic Four
III 66-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 31 – Interview with Stan Lee by 695
Dan Hagen
i

Volume No.
III 66-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 32 – Transcript of Interview with 715
Stan Lee by Eric Leguebe
III 66-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 33 – Excerpts from Origins of 724
Marvel Comics by Stan Lee
III 66-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 34 – June 11, 2007 Affidavit of 758
Stan Lee
III 66-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 35 – March 7, 2006 Agreement 774
between Stan Lee and Marvel
Entertainment, Inc.
between John Romita and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 37 – June 1, 1978 Agreement 779
between Roy Thomas and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 38 – April 28, 2008 Letter from 781
Gene Colan to Marvel Comics
Enterprises
III 66-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 39 – Excerpt from The Art of 784
Jack Kirby by Ray Wyman, Jr.
III 66-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 40 – January 9, 1966 Article 787
“Super-Heroes With Super Problems” by
Nat Freedland
ii
INDEX TO APPENDICES
Joint Appendix

Volume No.
I N/A 1/9/2012 Docket for Civil Case 1:10-cv-00141- 1
CM-KNF as of January 9, 2012
I 1 1/8/2010 Complaint 19
I 9 3/9/2010 Notice of Defendants’ Motion to 36
Dismiss for Lack of Personal
Jurisdiction and Failure to Join
Necessary Parties
I 10 3/9/2010 Defendants’ Memorandum of Law re: 39
Motion to Dismiss
I 11 3/9/2010 Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: Motion to 67
Dismiss
I 12 3/9/2010 Declaration of Neal Kirby re: Motion to 71
Dismiss
I 13 3/9/2010 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: Motion 75
to Dismiss
I 18 3/26/2010 Declaration of Alan Braverman re: 78
Motion to Dismiss
I 19 3/26/2010 Declaration of Eli Bard re: Motion to 80
Dismiss
I 20 3/26/2010 Declaration of James Quinn re: Motion 84
to Dismiss
I 23 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 87
Motion to Dismiss
I 24 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: 91
Motion to Dismiss
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 95
Dismiss
I 30 4/28/2010 Answer to Complaint and Counterclaims 111
iii

Volume No.
I 43 10/14/2010 Order re: Deposition of Mark Evanier 140
I 50 12/6/2010 Answer to Counterclaims 142
I 60 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion for 150
Summary Judgment
I 61 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 152
Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
I 62 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Memorandum re: Plaintiffs’ 186
Motion for Summary Judgment
I 65 2/25/2011 Declaration of Randi Singer re: 214
Judgment
II 65-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 1 – Excerpts from the May 13, 226
2010 and December 8, 2010 Depositions
of Stan Lee
II 65-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the October 327
21, 2010 Deposition of John Romita
II 65-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the October 378
26 and October 27, 2010 Depositions of
Roy Thomas
II 65-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the January 7, 422
2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
II 65-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the June 30, 448
2010 Deposition of Neal Kirby
II 65-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 6 – Excerpts from the July 1, 497
2010 Deposition of Lisa Kirby
III 65-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 7 – Excerpts from the October 515
III 65-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 8 – Excerpts from the November 531
III 65-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 9 – Excerpts from the December 553
iv

Volume No.
III 65-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 10 – Excerpts from the January 581
III 65-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 15 – August 31, 2009 Press 599
Release from the Walt Disney Company
between Jack Kirby and Magazine
Management Co., Inc.
III 65-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 18 – 1981 Interview with Stan 609
Lee by Leonard Pitts, Jr.
III 65-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 25 – November 1, 1998 629
Agreement between Stan Lee and
Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
III 65-29 2/25/2011 Exhibit 26 – August 6, 2007 Interview 640
with Lawrence Lieber by Daniel Best
III 65-30 2/25/2011 Exhibit 27 – January 9, 1963 Letter from 671
Stan Lee to Jerry Bails
III 65-31 2/25/2011 Exhibit 28 – Excerpt from Kirby: King 674
III 65-32 2/25/2011 Exhibit 29 – “Stan Lee Made Up the Plot 677
… And I’d Write the Script” by Roy
Thomas
III 65-33 2/25/2011 Exhibit 30 – Two-page synopsis of The 692
Fantastic Four
III 66-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 31 – Interview with Stan Lee by 695
Dan Hagen
III 66-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 32 – Transcript of Interview with 715
Stan Lee by Eric Leguebe
III 66-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 33 – Excerpts from Origins of 724
Marvel Comics by Stan Lee
III 66-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 34 – June 11, 2007 Affidavit of 758
Stan Lee
v

Volume No.
III 66-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 35 – March 7, 2006 Agreement 774
between Stan Lee and Marvel
Entertainment, Inc.
between John Romita and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 37 – June 1, 1978 Agreement 779
between Roy Thomas and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 38 – April 28, 2008 Letter from 781
Gene Colan to Marvel Comics
Enterprises
III 66-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 39 – Excerpt from The Art of 784
Jack Kirby by Ray Wyman, Jr.
III 66-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 40 – January 9, 1966 Article 787
“Super-Heroes With Super Problems” by
Nat Freedland
IV 66-11 2/25/2011 Exhibit 41 – Interview with Jack Kirby 794
and 66- by Gary Groth
12
IV 66-13 2/25/2011 Exhibit 42 – Excerpt from Jack Kirby 826
Collector Fifty-Four
IV 66-14 2/25/2011 Exhibit 43 – Interview with Jack Kirby 829
by Mark Herbert
IV 66-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 44 – July 12, 1966 Affidavit of 841
Jack Kirby
IV 66-16 2/25/2011 Exhibit 45 – Renewal Copyright 853
Registrations signed by Jack Kirby
IV 66-17 2/25/2011 Exhibit 46 – March 24, 1975 Agreement 874
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
vi

Volume No.
IV 66-18 2/25/2011 Exhibit 47 – June 16, 1986 883
Acknowledgement of Copyright
Ownership by Jack Kirby
IV 66-19 2/25/2011 Exhibit 48 – June 16, 1987 Agreement 886
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
IV 66-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 49 – May 12, 1987 Letter from 898
Joseph Calamari to Jack Kirby
IV 66-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 50 – October 3, 1986 Article 901
“Response: Jack Kirby replies to Marvel
Statement”
IV 66-22 2/25/2011 Exhibit 51 – November 19, 1997 Letter 904
from Stephen F. Rohde to Joseph
Calamari
IV 66-23 2/25/2011 Exhibit 52 – Interview with Stan Lee by 908
David Anthony Kraft
IV 66-24 2/25/2011 Exhibit 53 – Interview with Stan Lee by 925
Clifford Meth and Daniel Dickholtz
IV 66-26 2/25/2011 Exhibit 55 – September 22, 2009 Article 931
“Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby
Lawsuit]” by Al Nickerson
IV 66-27 2/25/2011 Exhibit 56 – Excerpt from “The JACK 934
F.A.Q.”
IV 66-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 57 – Excerpt from “The JACK 939
F.A.Q.”
IV 67 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 945
the Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69 2/25/2011 Declaration of Sabrina Perelman re: 947
Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 950
vii

Volume No.
IV 69-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the November 995
IV 69-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from November 16, 1008
1999 trial proceedings in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group Inc., et al., Case
No. 97-638-RRM, in the U.S. District
Court for the District of Delaware
IV 69-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 1014
12, 1999 Deposition of Mark Evanier in
In re Marvel Entertainment Group
IV 70 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 1017
the Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72 2/25/2011 Declaration of David Fleischer re: 1019
Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the January 1021
IV 73 2/25/2011 Notice of Defendants’ Motion for 1077
Summary Judgment
IV 74 2/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1080
Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 74-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1088
Report of Mark Evanier
V 74-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from Kirby: King 1116
V 74-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit C – 1972 “Jack Kirby’s Gods” 1125
Portfolio
V 74-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit D – 1969-1971 Presentation 1132
Pieces by Jack Kirby
V 75 2/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1135
Judgment
viii

Volume No.
V 75-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1140
Report of John Morrow
V 75-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Fantastic Four: The Lost 1161
through Adventure #1
75-4
V 78 2/25/2011 Defendants’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 1229
Judgment
V 82 3/25/2011 Supplement Declaration of Randi Singer 1235
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 82-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit 58 – Excerpts from the October 1238
Roy Thomas
V 82-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit 60 – Excerpts from the January 1249
7, 2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
V 82-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit 61 – Excerpts from the June 30, 1252
V 82-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit 63 – Excerpts from the January 1259
V 83 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 1277
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 85 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1295
Testimony of John Morrow
V 85-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the January 1299
ix

Volume No.
V 85-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – “Battling the Kirby Bug” by 1315
John Morrow
V 85-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Cover of Challengers of the 1317
Unknown, No. 1
V 87 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1319
V 87-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpt from Kirby: King of 1323
Comics by Mark Evanier
V 87-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the December 1325
V 87-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1342
V 87-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the October 1348
Roy Thomas
V 88 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1356
V 89 3/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1359
Judgment
V 90 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1364
Judgment
V 91 3/25/2011 Declaration of Richard Ayers re: 1372
Judgment
V 92 3/25/2011 Declaration of Joe Sinnott re: Plaintiffs’ 1378
VI 93 3/25/2011 Declaration of Neal Adams re: Plaintiffs’ 1384
x

Volume No.
VI 94 3/25/2011 Declaration of James Steranko re: 1390
Judgment
VI 95 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Toberoff (Part II) 1397
re: Motions for Summary Judgment
VI 95-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit A – September 16, 2009 1408
“Fantastic Four” Termination Notice
VI 95-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the November 1424
VI 95-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the December 1437
VI 95-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit D – Excerpts from the January 1477
VI 95-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the January 7, 1513
VI 95-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1532
VI 95-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the June 30, 1559
VI 95-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit H – Excerpts from the October 1602
VI 95-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit I – Excerpts from the May 13, 1611
2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit J – Excerpts from the December 1621
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit K – Excerpts from the October 1653
27, 2010 Deposition of Roy Thomas
VI 95-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit L – Plaintiffs’ December 20, 1660
2011 Response to Defendants’ First Set
of Requests for Admissions
VI 95-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit M – Attached as Exhibit 17 to 1668
the Declaration of Randi Singer
xi

Volume No.
VI 95-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit N – Jack Kirby Pencil Drawings 1675
of “Thor”
VII 95-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit O – Article “Kirby’s Gamma 1682
Rays: Alpha to Omega! – An Ultra-Rare
Find from 1962!”
VII 95-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit P – July 7, 2006 Agreement 1690
between Lisa Kirby and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
VII 95-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit Q – December 23, 2008 1692
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit R – November 3, 2008 1704
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit S – “Article “Fantastic Four 1713
#108: Jack’s Way”
VII 95-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit T – March 21, 1965 “Request for 1723
Payment” from Don Heck to Western
Printing and Lithographic
VII 95-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit U – Excerpts from “Five 1726
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
VII 95-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit V – Excerpts from “Alter Ego 1737
Presents: John Romita … and All that
Jazz!” by Roy Thomas and Jim Amash
VII 95-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit W – Excerpts from Jack Kirby 1746
Checklist Gold Edition
VII 95-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit X – Excerpts from The Art of 1763
Jack Kirby
VII 95-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit Y – Article “Kirby Gets 1776
Cracked”
xii

Volume No.
VII 95-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit Z – Article “The Monster of 1781
Moraggia”
VII 95-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit AA – 1974-1975 Checks to 1791
Richard Ayer
VII 95-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit BB – 1986 Check to Jack Kirby 1817
VII 95-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit CC – Article “Would You Like 1820
to See My Etchings?”
VII 95-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit DD – Attached as Exhibits 36 1828
and 37 to the Declaration of Randi
Singer
VII 95-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit EE – Draft Agreement between 1831
Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics Groups
VII 97-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit FF – Artwork by Jack Kirby 1842
VII 97-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit GG – Excerpts from Article “A 1850
Failure to Communicate: Part Two”
VII 97-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit HH – Excerpts from Article 1860
“Jack Kirby”
VII 97-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit II – Excerpts from Article “Hour 1863
Twenty-Five”
VII 97-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJ – Excerpts from Article “Jack 1865
Kirby Interview”
VII 97-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit KK – Excerpts from Article 1869
“Wow-What an Interview”
VII 97-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit LL – November 12, 1980 1872
Declaration of Donald S. Engel and
Exhibits C, D, E, attached thereto from
Gerber v. Cadence Industries
Corporation, et al., Case No. 80 3840
DVK, in the U.S. District Court for the
Central District of California
VII 97-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit MM – Excerpts from “Stan Lee: 1899
Conversations”
xiii

Volume No.
VII 97-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit NN – Excerpts from Article 1904
“Jack Kirby A Celebration”
VII 97-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit OO –Article “Jack Kirby 1907
Interview”
VII 97-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit PP – Article “Kirby and Goliath: 1909
The Fight for Jack Kirby’s Marvel
Artwork”
VII 97-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit QQ – November 19, 1985 Letter 1917
from DC Comics to The Comics Journal
VII 97-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit RR – Handwritten Notes of Jack 1919
Kirby
VII 97-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit SS – Excerpt from Article “A 1924
Talk with Artist-Writer-Editor Jack
Kirby”
VII 97-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit TT – Article “Jack Kirby 1926
Interview”
VII 97-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit UU – Excerpts from “Superhero 1929
Women” by Stan Lee
VII 97-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit VV – Excerpts from “Interview 1933
with Stan Lee” from ign.com
VII 97-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit WW – Excerpts from “Son of 1937
Origins of Marvel Comics” by Stan Lee
VII 97-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit XX – Excerpts from “The 1942
Fantastic Four” by Stan Lee
VII 97-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit YY – Excerpts from “Alter Ego, 1946
No. 74”
VII 97-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit ZZ – Excerpts from Article 1950
“Jack Kirby – The Master of Comic
Book Art”
VII 97-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit AAA – Excerpts from Article 1953
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– August 12, 1986”
xiv

Volume No.
VII 97-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit BBB – Excerpts from “The 1956
Incredible Hulk” by Stan Lee
VII 97-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit CCC – Excerpts from Article 1959
“The Goldberg Variations”
VII 97-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit DDD – Excerpts from Article 1962
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– March 3, 1967”
VII 97-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit EEE – Article “Jack Kirby: 1965
Prisoner of Gravity”
VIII 97-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit FFF – Article “Jack Kirby: A 1968
By-the-Month Chronology”
VIII 97-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit GGG – Article “The Highs and 2006
Lows of Henry Pym”
VIII 97-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit HHH – Article “They Were 2011
Aces”
VIII 97-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit III – December 24, 1980 2014
Declaration of Stephen Gerber and
Exhibit 3, attached thereto from Gerber
v. Cadence Industries Corporation, et al.
VIII 97-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJJ – Excerpts from “Nimmer on 2037
Copyright” (1963)
VIII 97-32 3/25/2011 Exhibit KKK – August 5, 1986 Letter 2049
from Joe Sacco to Paul Levine and
enclosure
VIII 98 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 2056
re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
VIII 99 3/25/2011 Redacted Declaration of Gene Colan re: 2146
Judgment
IX 108 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2152
Judgment
xv

Volume No.
IX 110 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Sabrina Perelman 2286
re: Plaintiffs’ Motions to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier and John
Morrow
IX 110-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from November 16, 2288
1999 trial transcript in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group
IX 114 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 2292
Judgment
IX 114-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from “Five 2296
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
IX 114-2 4/8/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 2302
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
IX 114-3 4/8/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the December 2313
IX 114-4 4/8/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the October 2319
IX 114-5 4/8/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 2325
Roy Thomas
IX 116 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2332
Judgment
IX 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 2367
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
IX 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 2417
IX 124 8/15/2011 Notice of Appeal 2419
xvi

Volume No.
X N/A Transcript for the May 13, 2010 2421
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
June 6, 2011)
Confidential Appendix
CA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2011 Declaration of Gene Colan re: Plaintiffs’ 1
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit A: March 22, 1975 Agreement 7
between Gene Colan and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit B: May 30, 1978 Agreement 15
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit C: April 28, 2008 Letter from 16
Gene Colan to Joe Quesada
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit D: May 31, 2008 Agreement 18
between Gene Colan and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Confidential Declaration of Marc 28
Toberoff re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for
Summary Judgment
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 2: July 26, 2002 Agreement 33
between Stan Lee and Marvel Enterprises,
Inc
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 4: March 20, 2006 Agreement 35
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 5: May 2, 2008 Agreement 39
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
xvii

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 6: December 31, 2009 47
Agreement between Catalyst Investments,
LLC and POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 7: December 18, 2009 59
Agreement between Silver Creek
Pictures, Inc. and POW! Entertainment,
Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 8: June 11, 2007 Agreement 72
between Marvel Entertainment, Inc. and
Stan Lee.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 9: Excerpts from the January 7, 77
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 10: March 22, 1975 Agreement 82
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 11: September 1, 1974 91
Agreement between Roy Thomas and
Marvel Comics Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 12: August 27, 1976 Agreement 99
between Roy Thomas and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 13: February 24, 1978 Letter 110
between Cadence Publishing Division
and Roy Thomas, enclosing March 7,
1977 Agreement between Roy Thomas
and Marvel Comics Group
II N/A Transcript for the October 21, 2010 115
Deposition of John Romita (requested by
the Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
July 12, 2011)
III N/A Transcript for the October 26, 2010 395
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
xviii

Volume No.
III N/A Transcript for the October 27, 2010 601
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
IV N/A Transcript for the December 8, 2010 705
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on June
6, 2011)
Special Appendix
SA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 1
I 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 3
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 53
Dismiss
xix
Case 11-3333, DocumentDocument
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
65-7 509510, Page22 Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 16
EXHIBIT 7
JA515
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
65-7 509510, Page23 Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 16
Page 1
1 SUSAN MERYL KIRBY
2 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4
5 _______________________________
)
6 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL)
CHARACTERS, INC., AND MVL, )
7 RIGHTS, LLC, )Civil Action No.:
)10 CIV. 141
8 Plaintiffs,)(CM) (KNF)
v. )
9 )
LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. )
10 KIRBY, NEIL L. KIRBY, )
AND SUSAN KIRBY, )
11 )
Defendants.)
12 )
______________________________)
13
14
15 VIDEOTAPED
16 DEPOSITION OF: SUSAN MERYL KIRBY
17 DATE: October 25, 2010
18 TIME: 10:00 a.m.
19 HELD AT: Ethan Allen Hotel
21 Lake Avenue Extension
20 Danbury, Connecticut
21
By: Sarah J. Miner, LSR

22
23
24
25 TSG JOB NO. 34010
TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
JA516
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
65-7 509510, Page24 Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 3013 of 16
Page 9
1 SUSAN MERYL KIRBY
2 you?
3 A. She was in California. I don't remember her
4 residence address. She had an apartment there in, I
5 don't remember what town, somewhere near Ventura.
6 Q. Do you know how long she had been in
7 California before moving back?
8 A. Several years, because she had lived with my
9 parents before she got her own place.
10 Q. Would you tell me when your birth date was?
11 A. 12/6/45.
12 Q. You are the daughter or one of the daughters
13 of Jack Kirby, right?
14 A. Yes, the eldest.
15 Q. Do you have any memory of being present while
16 your father worked on projects involving Marvel
17 characters?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you have any recollection of discussing
20 with your father the work he was doing for Marvel?
21 A. Yes. I was in his office a lot, because he
22 had a vast library of books, because he was into
23 everything. And I used to go down there and read, so
24 I used to read his books, and stuff, and one day I was
25 upstairs, and mom told me to go downstairs because Dad
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2 was creating some new super heroes. So I went
3 downstairs, and he said, "I want you to see this." He
4 said, I named the female super hero after you, her
5 name is Sue," Sue Storm he was talking about, it was
6 the Fantastic Four.
7 Q. Do you remember what year that was?
8 A. Oh, gosh, I was a teenager, that is all I
9 remember, maybe 15 or 16, so 1961, '62.
10 Q. And when you went downstairs did you discuss
11 with your father what he was doing?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did you say to him? What did he say to
14 you?
15 A. I said it looked great. There were three
16 characters on the board, three of the four. And I
17 asked about who they are, and he told me who each one
18 was. And I said, "It looks great, they look great".
19 Q. Do you recall anything else being said
20 between the two of you at that time?
21 A. Not at that particular conversation, no.
22 Q. How long would you say you had that
23 conversation with your father?
24 A. Oh, about an hour or so.
25 Q. And do you know what conversations, if any,
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2 occurred between your father, and anyone at Marvel
3 prior to his working on that?
4 A. No, I wasn't present.
5 Q. Did your father ever tell you what
6 conversations, if any, had occurred before this
7 conversation you had with him?
8 A. No, he did not.
9 Q. Did your mother say anything to you about the
10 work your father was doing, other than that he was --
11 A. Just that she was upset because he never
12 slept. He was always working. Even when he wasn't
13 selling something to Marvel, he was always creating
14 murals, and all kinds of things, his conception of
15 God. His mind was always going.
16 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with any of
17 your siblings concerning your father's work?
18 A. We always talked about Dad's work. That was
19 the main thing in the family.
20 Q. Would you summarize your educational
21 background for me, beginning in the year you graduated
22 from high school?
23 A. That was '63. And I went to college for a
24 year. So from '64 to '65 I was in college.
25 Q. Okay. Where did you graduate from high
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2 A. Because I have seen him do it.
3 Q. Do you know if prior to you witnessing your
4 father writing, he had had any discussions with anyone
5 at Marvel?
6 A. Not that I am aware of.
7 Q. Do you know that he -- do you know one way or
8 the other whether such discussions occurred?
9 A. No, I don't.
10 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to discussions.
11 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
12 Q. You said, "I think," that you saw your father
13 writing.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What form has that writing taken place?
16 A. As he draws he fills in the bubbles. He kind
17 of invented all his "Pow, Slam" stuff, that they use
18 today. That is how he wrote. He wrote sentences,
19 conversations between the characters, just off the top
20 of his head.
21 Q. Is it your testimony that you witnessed your
22 father drawing the dialogue bubbles, and story
23 narrative in the panels he was drawing?
24 A. Yes, I have witnessed it.
25 Q. Do you know whether the works that were
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2 published by Marvel contained the words that your
3 father had put in those bubbles, and narrative boxes?
4 A. To my knowledge, they were.
5 Q. Did you read comic books as a kid?
6 A. Yes, all kinds.
7 Q. Did you have a specific recollection of
8 seeing a comic book containing the dialogue that you
9 saw your father write?
10 A. Fantastic Four, Volume I.
11 Q. Do you know if your father had been given any
12 direction by Marvel prior to the time he began working
13 on Fantastic Four?
14 A. Not that I am aware of.
15 Q. Did anyone ever tell you that a synopsis of
16 Fantastic Four had been given to your father?
17 A. No, I had never seen him with one.
18 Q. Are you acquainted with Stan Lee?
19 A. I met him once when I was a child.
20 Q. What were the circumstances under which you
21 met him?
22 A. He came over the house for a drink with Mom
23 and Dad, him and his wife.
24 Q. Did you ever go to the office of Marvel as a
25 child?
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2 siblings about acquiring the rights to any works your
3 father contributed to, published by someone other than
4 Marvel?
5 A. No, I have never had that conversation.
6 Q. Did you have an understanding when you were
7 living in East Williston about the economic terms of
8 your father's relationship with any publisher?
9 A. Well, I knew that Marvel paid him by the
10 page, and that he and mom used to argue about it,
11 because he would be up all night doing pages, and
12 Marvel would say, "Well, we don't want to buy this."
13 Then they would go ahead and make him do the whole
14 thing over again, and he would just get paid for the
15 artwork that he did over again. So he was doing
16 things twice, and getting half the money.
17 Q. When do you recall hearing a conversation to
18 that effect?
19 A. Early '60's, late '50's.
20 Q. Do you know what character or characters were
21 involved in those discussions?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was there any mention of who it was that was
24 asking your father to redo pages or correct pages?
25 A. From what I recall Stan Lee.
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2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Are you aware of any particular comic book or
4 comic book character that your father worked on before
5 receiving an assignment from Marvel?
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates testimony.
7 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: Lacks foundation.
9 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
10 Q. Did you ever have occasion to discuss any
11 assignment your father had received from Marvel?
12 MR. TOBEROFF: Asked and answered. You can
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: No.
16 Q. Did you ever discuss with your father any of
17 his contributions to any of the characters that were
18 published by Marvel?
19 A. I just saw him create. That is all I saw.
20 Q. Did you ever discuss what he was drawing with
21 him?
22 A. No, there was no discussion that I recall,
23 just telling me what was going on in the scripts, and
24 strips, I don't know what you call them.
25 Q. Do you have any knowledge about the
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2 circumstances of the creation of the Spiderman comic
3 book character?
4 A. That is not Dad's. I think he did the
5 costume. I think he originated the costume, but not
6 the character itself.
7 Q. How did you come to that understanding?
8 A. I believe someone told me, maybe my mother, I
9 recall.
10 Q. What were the circumstances under which she
11 told you that?
12 A. We were discussing the character, because my
13 brother liked Spiderman. He was a little kid at the
14 time. We were just talking about it. It came up in
15 the conversation.
16 Q. Do you recall your brother asking about
17 whether your father had created Spiderman?
18 A. Yes, he did ask.
19 Q. What did your father say?
20 A. I don't think my father was there. It was
21 just my mother. She said he created Spiderman's
22 costume.
23 Q. Did your mother ever discuss with you any
24 other characters that were published by Marvel that
25 your father created or didn't create?
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2 A. Well, the Incredible Hulk. I was there when
3 he was creating him. He called me over, and said, "I
4 want you to see a new super hero." He said, "This is
5 the Incredible Hulk. What do you think of him?" I
6 said, "He is incredible."
7 Q. Do you remember what color he was?
8 A. Green, yes.
9 Q. Was he green on your father's drawing board?
10 A. No, he was black and white, but I remember
11 the color he was in the books.
12 Q. Was he -- when you saw it on the drawing
13 board, was it inked?
14 A. No, it was pencil.
15 Q. Was there any dialogue written on the
16 drawing?
17 A. No, it was just a drawing of the Hulk. He
18 had just started working on it.
19 Q. Do you know whether he had had any
20 conversations with anyone at Marvel before that about
21 the Hulk character?
22 A. I have no idea.
23 Q. Have you ever discussed the characters that
24 your father worked on for Marvel with anyone other
25 than Mr. Toberoff and your siblings?
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2 publishers?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Do you know whether your father was ever
5 working on a publication deadline?
6 A. He was always on a deadline. He used to work
7 20 hours a night sometimes.
8 Q. Do you know who give him that deadline or
9 deadlines?
10 A. Stan Lee.
11 Q. How do you know that?
12 A. I just remember Dad was always saying, I have
13 to make a deadline. I have to get this done. I have
14 to get that done.
15 Q. Are you aware of -- strike that. Were you
16 aware of your father leaving Marvel's -- withdrawn.
17 Were you aware of your father ceasing to
18 submit work to Marvel sometime in the 1970's?
19 A. I don't recall. I wasn't home then.
20 Q. Were you aware of your father beginning to
21 work exclusively for DC Comics?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you aware of whether your father owned
24 any rights to the work he submitted to DC Comics?
25 A. I don't know. I guess he did.
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2 Q. Do you recall whether it was in pencil when
3 you saw it or ink?
4 A. It was in pencil.
5 Q. Were there any dialogue balloons?
6 A. There were balloons, but there was nothing in
7 them yet.
8 Q. Did your father ever discuss the work he was
9 doing on the X-Men comic book?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did your father ever indicate whether or not
12 he was working with a writer on X-Men?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did your father ever indicate where the idea
15 for the X-Men story came from?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you have a recollection of the names of
18 any of the X-Men characters?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever see one of the X-Men movies?
21 A. Is that the one with Wolverine in it?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes, I saw one.
24 Q. Let's focus for a second on Ant Man?
25 A. I don't even know who that is.
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2 Q. Do you know whether your father had any
3 association with Ant Man?
4 A. I have never heard of it before.
5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 1 marked for
6 identification.)
7 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
8 Q. Ms. Kirby, have you ever seen what we have
9 marked for identification as Susan Kirby Number 1, and
10 take your time to look through it.
11 A. I see my name on it as a plaintiff.
12 Q. I am sorry. You mean on the sticker that the
13 reporter just put on?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Apart from that?
16 A. I don't see anything.
17 Q. Do you know who wrote what is on this page?
18 A. Yes, Dad.
19 Q. And did your father have a typewriter?
20 A. A typewriter, no. He may have had one of
21 those old typewriters, not an electric one.
22 Q. Did he, with respect to Fantastic Four, write
23 out a synopsis or a script for Fantastic Four?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What is the basis for your statement that
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2 character, my intention is to ask you whether that was
3 the first iteration of the character, the invention of
4 the character?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. With respect to Rawhide Kid, do you have any
7 information about who invented Rawhide Kid?
8 A. That would be my Dad.
9 Q. How do you know that?
10 A. I believe I was told.
11 Q. By whom?
12 A. My father.
13 Q. What did he say in that regard?
14 A. I don't really recall the exact words. It
15 was one of his comic books in the library, and I was
16 reading it. I asked, you know, is this one of yours,
17 and he said, yes. That is all I remember.
18 Q. Did you ever see him at work on a Rawhide Kid
19 comic book?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Would I be correct, then, that you would not
22 have any information as to whether or not he had been
23 assigned the project of working on a comic book called
24 Rawhide Kid?
25 A. You would be correct.
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2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Do you disagree with the substance of the
4 statement made in that paragraph?
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection, calls for legal
6 conclusion. It is a legal document. She is not a
7 lawyer. Uses terms of art.
8 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
9 Q. He hasn't directed you not to answer the
10 question.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Do you have any information as to whether the
13 work that your father did, published by Marvel, was
14 done as a result of an assignment your father received
15 from Marvel?
16 A. Not that I know of.
17 Q. What information do you have that would lead
18 you to conclude that it was not done as a result of an
19 assignment?
20 A. I can't conclusively say so. I don't have
21 any knowledge.
22 Q. You don't know one way or another?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are you aware of whether any of the
25 counterclaims asserted by you and your siblings
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EXHIBIT 8
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2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
4 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL )
CHARACTERS, INC., and MVL RIGHTS,)
5 LLC, )
)
6 Plaintiffs, )
) CASE NO.
7 vs. ) 10 CV 141 (CM)(KNF)
) Pages 1 - 192
8 LISA A. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, )
NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY,)
9 )
Defendants. )
10 _________________________________)
11
12 VOLUME I
13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARK EVANIER
14 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
15 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2010
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 REPORTED BY:
LESLIE L. WHITE
23 CSR NO. 4148
JOB NO.: 34167
24
25
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1 Q Now you mentioned that you saw him a lot
2 during that period, let's say from 1972 until his death
3 in -- I believe it was 1994, was it?
4 A I should know this. '94 I believe, yes.
5 Q During that period of time I take it you
6 remained in close contact with Mr. Kirby?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Is that a fair statement?
9 A That is a fair statement, yes.
10 Q And you would have dinners with the family,
11 among other things?
12 A From time to time, yes.
13 Q And, in fact, Mr. Kirby became a very close
14 friend of yours; isn't that right?
15 A I would like to think so.
16 Q And you stated publicly that he treated you
17 like family; isn't that right?
18 A I may have said that at times, yes. I
19 actually --
20 Q And, indeed, he even introduced as his son
21 Mike from time to time?
22 A He made that slip once, yes.
23 Q And it's fair to say that over that period of
24 time you came to idolize Jack Kirby, didn't you?
25 A I would never -- I would not use the word
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1 A No, they were not.
2 Q And I take it that some of them eventually
3 ended up at DC; is that right?
4 A DC and other places, yes, other companies.
5 Q Now focusing on the "other" category, the
6 category that you say Mr. Kirby told you about, the
7 rejected pages, what did Mr. Kirby tell you about those?
8 A He showed me pages that -- well, he showed me
9 pages that were from old -- that I recognized, and which
10 he confirmed were recent issues of Thor or Fantastic
11 Four -- there might been some Captain Americas in
12 there -- pages that Marvel had sent back to him because
13 they wanted something different, they wanted the pages
14 changed. In some cases he had erased pages and sent
15 them back, but in some cases it was easier for him or
16 necessary for him because the requests for revision were
17 so extensive that he drew on fresh paper.
18 He also -- and he showed me -- not on my first
19 visit with him, but on a subsequent visit -- he showed
20 me a story in progress that he had to do extensive
21 revisions on in order to get Marvel to accept.
22 Q Now you indicated that he had to do extensive
23 revisions. Did he tell you when he submitted these who
24 he submitted them to at Marvel?
25 A Um, I believe -- I don't know that he told me
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1 specifically. I just assumed they were submitted to
2 Stan Lee.
3 Q To the editor?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And was it your understanding that from time
6 to time the editor, whether it was Stan Lee or later,
7 whoever replaced Stan Lee, that they would ask for
8 changes in the work done by Mr. Kirby?
9 A Well, first of all, if we're talking about the
10 material he showed me in 1969 --
11 (Speaking simultaneously.)
12 BY MR. QUINN:
13 Q Yes, let's focus on that material.
14 A -- then there would not be subsequent
15 editors --
16 Q Fair enough --
17 A -- because Stan was the editor --
18 Q Fair enough.
19 A Let's see -- now can I have the question
20 again?
21 Q Sure.
22 A All right.
23 Q Based on what Kirby told you, was it your
24 understanding that from time to time Stan Lee, the
25 editor, would ask Mr. Kirby to make changes in some of
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1 the artwork he submitted?
2 A Yes. He would also just reject, say, "I don't
3 like the end of this story. Do something different with
4 it."
5 Q And, in fact, Mr. Kirby would then go back and
6 make a change or come up with a new ending; is that
7 fair?
8 A Yes, that is correct.
9 I might also add that Jack also complained to
10 me that pages were being rejected, but not returned to
11 him; that the art was -- he was not getting the pages
12 back that he felt he was owed.
13 Q When did he tell you this?
14 A 1969, when I first met him.
15 Q All this time when you were 17 years old?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay.
18 A And he subsequently talked about it in later
19 years.
20 Q And it's correct, is it not, that after the
21 changes were made they would be resubmitted for approval
22 by Mr. Lee?
23 A Jack would redo the material and send it back.
24 Q And when he redid the material and sent it
25 back, he would get his page rate; correct?
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1 A For the -- yeah, for the -- yes.
2 Q For the redone material.
3 A Well, he got the page rate for the story. I
4 mean, Jack's complaint was that when he -- if he had to
5 draw 26 pages for a 20-page story, he was only paid for
6 20 pages.
7 Q And that's a complaint he made to you?
8 A Yes. And his wife complained about that a lot
9 also.
10 Q Let me see if I have this right. He submits a
11 story, and Lee says to him, "You got to change four
12 pages" --
13 A Yes. Excuse me, let me amend that. I don't
14 know that Stan would specifically say, "Change four
15 pages --"
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- he might just say --
18 Q "I don't like this"?
19 A -- "I don't like the ending of the story. I
20 want something else."
21 Q Fine. And Kirby would go back, redo the
22 ending of the story, resubmit it and then get paid for
23 the story?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Okay. Now when did you meet Stan Lee for
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1 and that that is how the comic was created.
2 Q Do you agree with Mr. Lee's statement -- it is
3 also his testimony, but let's put it aside -- you're
4 familiar with the statement that the Fantastic Four came
5 about, at least in part, because of a discussion that he
6 had with Martin Goodman -- by the way, do you know who
7 Martin Goodman is?
8 A Yes, I do.
9 Q Did you ever meet him?
10 A I shook hands with him in a hallway very
11 briefly.
12 Q Many, many years ago?
13 A 1970, the same meeting.
14 Q Same meeting?
15 A It was not the same day actually. It was a
16 day or two afterwards.
17 Q Other than shaking hands with Mr. Goodman, you
18 have never had a substantive conversation with him;
19 correct?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Go back. Do you agree with Mr. Lee's
22 statements that the Fantastic Four, at least in part,
23 came about as a result of discussions that Mr. Lee had
24 with Mr. Goodman in connection with the idea of coming
25 up with a group of superheroes?
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1 A My understanding is that Mr. Goodman said to
2 Mr. Lee, "I see DC Comics has some very decent sales on
3 what is called the Justice League of America. We should
4 try a comic like that."
5 Mr. Lee, in many interviews, said as I
6 related, that Mr. Goodman had played golf with
7 Jack Leibowitz, who was the head of DC Comics at the
8 time, and that Leibowitz had bragged about the sales of
9 Justice League, and that that prompted Mr. Goodman to
10 come back from the golf game and say, "We should -- we
11 should create a comic like that."
12 Mr. Lee has told this story on many occasions.
13 Mr. Leibowitz, when he was interviewed, said he never
14 played golf with Goodman in his entire life.
15 So based on that, I tend to disbelieve at
16 least that part of Mr. Lee's story.
17 Q So you think Lee is just lying about it?
18 A No, I think he just is being casual about the
19 record.
20 Q Have you seen the document that is -- I guess
21 was it a plot outline -- a document that I guess it has
22 come to have the term "synopsis" with regard to the
23 first issue of the Fantastic Four?
24 A Yes, I have.
25 Q And are you -- when did you first see that
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1 deposition of Mark Evanier. We're off the record at
2 11:42 a.m.
3 (A recess was taken from
4 11:42 a.m. to 11:56 a.m.)
5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of disc
6 No. 2 in the deposition of Mark Evanier. We're on the
7 record at 11:56 a.m.
8 BY MR. QUINN:
9 Q Mr. Evanier, just to close this particular
10 loop, so it was your understanding, with regard to the
11 Fantastic Four, that Mr. Kirby and Mr. Lee sat down
12 beforehand and discussed the plot and the storyline,
13 before it was published, before -- let me rephrase that.
14 A All right.
15 Q Was it your understanding that Kirby and Lee
16 sat down to discuss the plot and the storyline before
17 Mr. Kirby actually began to draw the characters?
18 A Yes, that is correct.
19 Q Okay.
20 A I actually didn't --
21 Q I'm sorry --
22 A I didn't finish my answer before the break
23 there.
24 Q Go ahead.
25 A You were asking me why I thought that the
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1 synopsis had followed a meeting with Jack's giving his
2 input.
3 Another reason is that the storyline of
4 Fantastic Four is very similar in a number of ways to a
5 comic Jack had done previously called the Challenger of
6 the Unknown, very similar structure to the characters.
7 It feels an awful lot more like Jack's earlier work than
8 anything that Stan had done to that date.
9 So I find it very difficult to believe that
10 Jack did not have input into the creation of the
11 characters prior to the -- that synopsis, whenever it
12 was composed.
13 And, also, I have the fact that I talked to
14 Stan many times, and he told me -- and he said it in
15 print in a few places -- that he and Jack had sat down
16 one day and figured out what the Fantastic Four would
17 be.
18 Q And they discussed the plot before they
19 actually -- the drawings were done?
20 A They discussed the plot before the alleged
21 synopsis was done also.
22 Q And was it your understanding, with regard to
23 these other characters -- and we can go through all of
24 them, or just we can get a general understanding -- that
25 this was typically what was done, that Lee and Kirby
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1 would sit down together, discuss the plot, discuss the
2 storyline, and then Kirby would go and draw whatever he
3 was going to draw?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Now -- and at least in part, that
6 understanding is based on what Mr. Kirby told you?
7 A Mr. Kirby's accounts to me are part of my
8 understanding.
9 Q Right. And some of Mr. Lee's statements to
10 you are part of your understanding?
11 A That has also contributed to my
12 understanding --
13 Q What you read is part of your understanding?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. QUINN: Let me show you a document we will mark
16 this as Kirby -- Evanier 2. And this was a document
17 that I believe was produced from your files -- and the
18 reason I say that is, as you will see, it has your
19 initials, production initials on it.
20 (Exhibit 2 was marked for
21 identification by the Reporter.)
22 MR. TOBEROFF: He's referring to the "ME" at the
23 bottom.
24 THE WITNESS: Good, I get to be a code number.
25 ///
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1 sequence that was a story -- roughly concurrent, they
2 were all from about the same period of time, which would
3 have been '66 or so. '66 or '67.
4 Q So it's fair to assume that at least with
5 regard to some issues, in fact, Stan Lee did prepare
6 plot outlines?
7 A These were all plot outlines that were notes
8 for meetings where Jack had input, that they said in
9 them, "As we discussed in this," and such.
10 And I also do not know for sure that these
11 were Stan Lee prepared. They were filling the role that
12 Stan allegedly performed, but they may have been typed
13 up -- written by an editorial assistant who sat in the
14 meetings for all I know.
15 Q But you did refer to them here as "Stan Lee
16 plot outlines"?
17 A Yes, yes, I was being casual. They were
18 Stan Lee plot outlines, even if they were ghosted by
19 somebody else or typed up by somebody else, but they
20 were not necessarily all Stan's work.
21 Q And it's your understanding that Lee and Kirby
22 would have discussions, and then Stan Lee, or one of his
23 editorial assistants, would then create a plot outline
24 for Kirby to use in connection with his artwork?
25 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Overbroad. Which
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1 attention to that kind of thing."
2 Was that your understanding of how Jack
3 operated?
4 MR. TOBEROFF: Where is that?
5 MR. QUINN: Last sentence of the first paragraph.
6 THE WITNESS: Jack paid very little attention to
7 who inked his work, yes, that's correct.
8 BY MR. QUINN:
9 Q And two pages later there's a question, "Did
10 Jack really have a bad memory?"
11 And you write:
12 "By common definition yes...but I
13 think it was more a matter of his
14 mind wandering in 19 directions at
15 once. Every so often, he would
16 surprise me with some (apparently)
17 crystal-clear recollection of 30
18 years before."
19 And that was your understanding with regard to
20 Mr. Kirby's memory?
21 A Well, this is -- first of all, this is
22 something I wrote about 10 years ago. And I probably
23 would phrase it differently today. But Jack did -- you
24 know, he made mistakes, like a lot of people do.
25 Q When you're writing these answers to
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1 Frequently Asked Questions, you do try to be accurate,
2 don't you?
3 A Yes. Yes, I try to be accurate. I am not
4 speaking in lawyer language.
5 Q No, you're speaking in people language. I
6 understand that.
7 A I'm speaking in language that I think will be
8 understood by the kind of people who would come to the
9 website looking for information on Jack.
10 Are we done with 11?
11 Q We're done with 11, and we're going to skip
12 12.
13 A Okay.
14 Q Could you go to 13: And specifically there is
15 a question, "Did Jack design Spider-Man's costume?" Do
16 you see that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you answered, "No, Steve Ditko designed
19 the distinctive costume we all know and love."
20 And that's your understanding; right?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And then in the next paragraph you make
23 reference to (Reading):
24 "But for all the things Jack did
25 well, he was not great at being
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1 interviewed. He occasionally got
2 carried away or confused. There
3 were -- there was one interview
4 where, without realizing what he
5 was saying, he said he created
6 Superman. Needless to say he never
7 really believed that, but somehow
8 that is what came out of his
9 mouth."
10 You wrote that, didn't you?
11 A Yeah. Actually, when I originally wrote it
12 there was another paragraph after this -- which I guess
13 I deleted, because it is not in here -- talking about
14 how Stan Lee used to occasionally refer to Superman.
15 I was trying to point out that both guys
16 referred to Superman erroneously in print.
17 Q This is what you wrote?
18 A I wrote -- yes, I'm just saying there was
19 another paragraph here that I guess I deleted it.
20 Q You deleted that other paragraph --
21 A At some point, yes.
22 Q Then you go on later to say:
23 "In at least one such
24 conversation" -- this is a couple
25 lines down -- "he" referring to
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1 Jack -- "misspoke and claimed he
2 designed the costume for the final
3 version of Spider-Man."
4 Do you see that?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And he was mistaken about that, wasn't he?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And then at the last sentence you say:
9 "In this case, however, the cover
10 was drawn after Stan had rejected
11 one drawn wholly by Ditko"; right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And originally it is your understanding that
14 with regard to Spider-Man, Lee had initially assigned it
15 to Jack Kirby, and then he switched it to Ditko;
16 correct?
17 A Originally Jack drew Spider-Man, and then they
18 stopped Jack, and Ditko took over.
19 Q And that was at Stan Lee's request, wasn't it?
20 A I would assume so.
21 Q And on the next page you wrote -- actually, in
22 the bottom of the next page -- or bottom of this page
23 under, "What did Jack do on the first stories of Iron
24 Man and Daredevil," you wrote, "The first Iron Man story
25 was wholly drawn by Don Heck"; correct?
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1 A I think there were a couple of other reasons,
2 yes.
3 Q What were the other reasons that you think
4 that they did that?
5 A I think they liked the idea that you were
6 dependent on them, that you worked -- that a freelancer
7 was at their financial mercy.
8 And if you worked out in Los Angeles there
9 seemed to be always this possibility you might get --
10 sell work to other people or get other sources of income
11 and would not then be so dependent on the company's page
12 rates.
13 Q Looking at what is page 66 in this article, in
14 the middle column --
15 A Uh-huh.
16 Q -- you say, referring to how it was until
17 recently (Reading):
18 "This was the way it was in comics
19 until very recently."
20 This was in 1984, so --
21 A Yeah.
22 Q (Continuing):
23 "If you had a great -- if you had
24 the greatest idea for a comic book,
25 the new Spider-Man, there was no
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1 American comic book publisher to
2 whom you could take the damn thing
3 and share in its success. No one.
4 They wouldn't guarantee you
5 creative control of it, they
6 wouldn't guarantee you a continuing
7 credit on it, they wouldn't
8 guarantee not to fire you and bring
9 in someone else."
10 That was your understanding; correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Jones, the questioner, says: "Wasn't this
13 negotiable?"
14 And you say, "No, they had a policy."
15 Correct?
16 A Yes, I said that.
17 Q That was your understanding?
18 A Yes.
19 Q In the next paragraph -- the next column, I'm
20 sorry, there is a reference to -- you say:
21 "I was there for some of this.
22 DC's publisher was sitting in a
23 very expensive suite at the Beverly
24 Hills Hotel telling Jack that DC
25 could not pay royalties, they could
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1 not and would not ever give anyone
2 a profit participation."
3 Do you see that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And then you go on to say: "I heard executives
6 at Marvel essentially saying the same thing," and that
7 was your understanding at the time; right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q They wouldn't pay royalties, they wouldn't
10 give a profit participation, would they?
11 A Right.
12 Q Bottom of page 69, first column, very bottom,
13 you talking (Reading):
14 "He's tough for me to talk
15 about" -- referring to Jack --
16 "because we're practically family.
17 In fact, you know, Jack has a bad
18 memory at times. I have known him
19 over 15 years, and he always
20 introduces me to people as Mike,
21 and he sometimes introduces me as
22 his son."
23 So actually he did it more than once, didn't
24 he?
25 A No, I think he only did it once.
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1 BY MR. QUINN:
2 Q Bottom of page 78, the third column --
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q -- you state:
5 "I can say with some authority --
6 and with quotes from both Stan and
7 Jack to back me up and much
8 existing paperwork -- that most of
9 the Lee and Kirby comics were done
10 as follows. Stan and Jack
11 sometimes get together and talk out
12 the direction of the story, and
13 then Stan would sometimes type up a
14 plot outline incorporating both
15 their ideas. That's sometimes, not
16 always. At some point, Jack would
17 go to the drawing board and pencil
18 out 20 pages or whatever, writing
19 notes in the margin as to what was
20 going on. If you come across Kirby
21 original art of the period, you can
22 see his notes in the margins
23 explaining to Stan what was going
24 on. Now, in some cases Jack would
25 have a discussion with Stan. In
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1 some cases, he'd have a short plot
2 outline. In some cases, he'd have
3 absolutely nothing at all; he'd
4 just pencil the issue out, and when
5 he handed it in, Stan would find
6 out that the story was about. Stan
7 would then take the pages home and
8 write the copy and that would go --
9 that would go in the balloons. In
10 some cases he would take Jack's
11 marginal notes and turn them into
12 presentable speech and use them.
13 In other cases, he would deviate
14 from what Jack intended, as much as
15 anyone can deviate when the page is
16 already drawn, and the poses and
17 attitudes of characters are set."
18 Now was that your effort to describe what came
19 to be known as the "Marvel method"?
20 A That was my attempt to describe the way Lee
21 and Kirby worked at the time.
22 Q And did that particular description come to be
23 known in comic book circles as the "Marvel method"?
24 A Loosely, yes.
25 Q On page 83 in this interview in the first
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EXHIBIT 9
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2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
5 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL )

6 CHARACTERS, INC., and MVL RIGHTS, )
7 LLC, )
8 )
9 PLAINTIFFS, )
10 )
11 VS. )NO. 10 CV 141 (CM)(KNF)
12 )
13 LISA A. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, )
14 NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
15 )
16 DEFENDANTS. )
17 __________________________________)
18
19 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARK EVANIER

20 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
21 DECEMBER 6, 2010
22
23
24 REPORTED BY: CHRISTY A. CANNARIATO, CSR #7954, RPR, CRR

25 JOB NO.: 34168
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1 period of time. You would agree with me, would you not,
2 that under these circumstances a man like Mr. Goodman was
3 -- did have significant financial risk as a result of the
4 nature of the industry?
5 A. I would not necessarily agree with that
6 depending on the definition of "significant."
7 Q. Well, he was at financial risk, was he not, as
8 to whether or not a particular comic book would be
9 successful; correct?
10 A. He was at some financial risk, probably. Yes.
11 Q. You indicated here, among other things, that
12 he borrowed funds. That would be a financial risk,
13 wouldn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And if a particular line of comics failed,
16 that would -- he would incur financial risk as a result of
17 that, wouldn't he?
18 A. Some financial risk. Yes.
19 Q. And, in fact, as I believe you testified,
20 publishers like Mr. Goodman often had comic books that
21 were not successful and that they had to discontinue;
22 correct?
23 A. Yes. I would phrase it slightly differently
24 than that, but I would say they often had books that they
25 discontinued because they believed they were not
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1 successful or would not be successful. One of my key
2 opinions about Mr. Goodman is that he was frequently wrong
3 about that.
4 Q. But -- I will come back to that.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. You would agree, would you not, that if a book
7 had to be discontinued or was discontinued, it was because
8 the publisher concluded, rightly or wrongly, that it
9 wasn't going to make money?
10 A. There were occasional other reasons to
11 discontinue a comic.
12 Q. Putting aside the other reasons, one of the
13 reasons for sure was that the publisher made a
14 determination that he couldn't make money with a
15 particular comic book line; --
16 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague.
17 Q. -- correct?
18 A. Hold on. Putting aside the other -- putting
19 aside the other issues -- I'm sorry. The question is
20 confusing me.
21 Q. You testified that --
22 A. It sounds like you're asking me: Aside from
23 the fact that -- aside from the cases that he discontinued
24 because he wasn't making money wasn't the only reason he
25 discontinued wasn't that he was making money.
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1 Q. I will rephrase it.
2 A. Let me try this. Maybe this will make it
3 simpler. Publishers made determinations to discontinue
4 books. Sometimes they were forced to discontinue them by
5 the distributors for content reasons. Sometimes they were
6 forced to discontinue them for rights reasons. Sometimes
7 they had opinions that the book would not -- did not sell
8 or would not sell. Sometimes they were right; sometimes
9 they were wrong. There were a myriad of reasons to cancel
10 a comic.
11 But if your question is: Did they cancel
12 books because they thought they were losing money? Then
13 the answer is: Yes, that was a very frequently a reason.
14 Q. Okay. That's fine.
15 A. All right.
16 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Goodman borrowed money
17 in order to set up his company. Do you happen to know who
18 he borrowed it from and how much?
19 A. No. I don't know that.
20 Q. And you also had mentioned that you made notes
21 after having been to Marvel offices from time to time to
22 put down things that you wanted to remember. Did you keep
23 those notes?
24 A. Not to this day.
25 Q. Looking at your report again on page 5. Let's
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1 self-explanatory, but --
2 Q. Let me focus for a second on when you say
3 "co-created," what do you mean by "co-created"?
4 A. Co-created would be when the creation would
5 probably be credited to more than one person. So each of
6 the creators would be a co-creator.
7 Q. Now, focusing on this period between 1958 and
8 1963, and the particular comic book characters that are
9 the subject matter at issue in this case, what conclusions
10 did you reach with regard to whether those characters were
11 created solely by Mr. Kirby or were created or co-created,
12 rather, by Mr. Kirby and others, focusing specifically
13 with regard to on Mr. Lee?
15 A. Let me have it one more time.
16 MR. QUINN: Yeah, read it back.
17 (The record was read.)
18 A. I believe that the characters -- let me put it
19 this way. I believe that the properties Fantastic Four,
20 The Hulk, Thor, several others here, the overall
21 properties were co-created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.
22 Q. And what opinions or conclusions did you reach
23 as to how that co-creation process worked?
24 A. My understanding is that the two of them would
25 sit down. They'd bring in rough ideas they might have had
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1 apart, throw them back and forth like any collaboration.
2 Jack would offer ideas for characters. Stan would offer
3 ideas for characters. Some ideas would get discarded.
4 Some ideas would get expanded upon. And then they would
5 emerge with some idea of what Jack was going to go home
6 and draw.
7 Jack would draw the story. If it was 20
8 pages, he would draw 20 pages of material. He would bring
9 it back. Assuming that Stan didn't -- assuming that Stan
10 was happy with what Jack brought in, Stan would then write
11 the copy, the dialogue, the captions on the pages. And
12 then the work would proceed from that through lettering,
13 and inking, and coloring, and publishing.
14 Q. Now, do you have any evidence or did you reach
15 any conclusion or have an opinion as to whether Kirby had
16 created or co-created any of these characters prior to
17 when he returned to Marvel in 1958? And we're focusing on
18 these particular characters.
19 A. On which particular characters were you
20 focusing on?
21 Q. The ones you mentioned.
22 A. The ones I mentioned? I believe Jack had
23 previously done, in some cases, antecedents that were a
24 starting point. He came in with ideas that were then
25 later shaped with input from Stan.
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1 time is 12:28 p.m. and we are back on the record. And
2 this marks the beginning of Disk No. 3, the Deposition of
3 Mark Evanier.
4 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Before we took a break, we were
5 talking about the statement in your report in the Superman
6 case on the discussion of your understanding of the nature
7 of the work for hire relationship, and specifically the
8 reference you made to receiving some measure of
9 supervision as a factor in determining whether or not a
10 particular work was a work for hire.
11 And I was asking you what you meant by the
12 phrase, "receiving some measure of supervision."
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Mischaracterizes the statement
14 in his expert report. You can answer.
15 A. What I meant was I think you have to take that
16 sentence as a whole. Supervision, I mean, every publisher
17 supervises work to the extent of deciding whether to
18 publish or saying I won't publish it unless you change
19 this word. I've had that done to me on materials where
20 I've owned the copyright, and I've had that done to me on
21 the materials where I did not own the copyright.
22 In this particular case, this particular is
23 about the Siegel and Shuster case. And the first sentence
24 says:
25 (Reading:) I understand in the nature of the
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1 the work that Mr. Kirby did in drawing these characters in
2 his basement or wherever --
3 A. It was in his basement often.
4 Q. -- that that work was performed after he and
5 Mr. Lee had sat down and discussed the general plot of
6 what was going to go on and discussed what characters were
7 going to be part of the comic book. And it was after that
8 that Mr. Kirby would then begin his drawings in his
9 basement.
10 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Misstates his
11 testimony.
12 A. That's not --
13 MR. TOBEROFF: He didn't say that.
14 A. I didn't say that that that was always the
15 case.
16 MR. TOBEROFF: It misstates his testimony.
17 Period.
18 Q. Fine. The record is going to be whatever it
19 is.
20 You would agree with me, would you not, that a
21 particular character or a particular comic book story or
22 plot would not be published unless -- and we're talking
23 now at Marvel --
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. -- so '58 to '63 -- would not be published
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1 unless it was approved either by Mr. Lee or by Mr. Goodman
2 or both of them.
3 A. As with any publisher, yes, the publisher and
4 editor have the final say whether they're going to publish
5 something or not.
6 Q. And you testified previously that from time to
7 time Mr. Lee, when he received materials from Mr. Kirby,
8 would comment on them, and he would make changes in them;
9 correct?
10 A. He would of course comment on them. As an
11 editor, his job is to comment on them. To make changes in
12 them? If he had purchased the pages from Mr. Kirby, he
13 would make -- he could do whatever he wanted with them
14 once he bought them.
15 Q. Didn't he, from time to time, we'd agree, he
16 was being paid -- Kirby was being paid on a per page rate?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did Mr. Lee from time to time ask Mr.
19 Kirby to make changes or suggest changes in material that
20 he submitted?
21 A. There were times when Stan would say, I need
22 something else here. I can't take this story as it is.
23 You've got to fix this before we can buy it. Yes.
24 Q. And Mr. Kirby would, in fact, make those
25 changes and resubmit; correct?
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1 A. I think there were times he didn't make the
2 changes and offered something else, solved the problem a
3 different way or did something different. But, yes.
4 I'm sorry. Go ahead. I finished my sentence.
5 Q. Okay. And there were also times where he did
6 make the changes, resubmitted, and it got published.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. So when you're referring to supervision in
9 this paragraph, you're talking about the fact that there
10 was nobody, Stan Lee or someone else from Marvel, in
11 Mr. Kirby's basement overseeing the actual drawings of the
12 books. Is that your --
13 A. I would make it broader than that. But
14 certainly Jack was working at home. He was drawing the
15 work on his own. He was plotting out the stories on his
16 own. He was not being supervised in the creation of the
17 work.
18 Q. You are aware that the -- -- and I believe you
19 have testified previously and written extensively that
20 with regard to these characters between '58 and '63 that I
21 believe you referred to the fact that Mr. Lee and Mr.
22 Kirby were co-plotting, was your term, co-plotting the
23 books and characters; correct?
24 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to the previous
25 testimony --
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1 into this discussion. But you submit work to -- let me
2 give you an example.
3 I submitted scripts to DC Comics in 1968. The
4 editors -- to Charlton. And the editors there said --
5 sometimes sent them back and said we don't want this. It
6 was rejected. I was not paid for it.
7 Once or twice the editor said: If you can
8 come up with a better ending for this, I might buy it. So
9 I did a -- rewrote the ending and submitted the work
10 again.
11 Now, the first version that I submitted was
12 rejected, rejected being the opposite of accepted here.
13 The fact that some of the work didn't change doesn't
14 change the fact that the first version in totality was
15 rejected.
16 Q. So that's your understanding of "they were
17 only paid if the work was accepted"?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But would you agree with me that the practice
20 was if the work was accepted, the artist or writer was
21 paid, whether or not it was published?
22 A. That I would agree with. Yes.
23 Q. Now, you mention that there were times that
24 you brought things to DC Comics, I believe you said, and
25 some of the work was not accepted. Was that work that
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1 work for Marvel's books. And that coincided with the
2 exhaustion of the inventory of material to the point where
3 now more material was being purchased.
4 Does that make sense what I just said? I
5 think I said that inside out, but that's what happened.
6 Q. I got it.
7 Now, during the period I think that we're
8 talking about, and prior to that, it's fair to say that
9 Martin Goodman was responsible essentially for anything
10 that happened during the time he ran Marvel?
11 A. I'm sorry. Could I have that again?
12 Q. Yeah. You've written, haven't you, that Mr.
13 Goodman was responsible for anything that happened during
14 the time you owned the company. Is that a fair statement?
16 A. Mr. Goodman was the publisher, the primary
17 owner of the company, so he was doing the publisher's
18 duties which -- he didn't make all the decisions there
19 certainly, but he was in charge of the company.
20 Q. He had the final say so --
21 A. I would --
22 Q. -- as to what got published and what didn't?
23 A. Yes, I would assume he had the final say so.
24 Q. And that was because it was his money on the
25 line. Fair?
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1 A. His family's money.
2 Q. His family?
3 A. His family owned the company. He had a lot of
4 relatives on the payroll.
5 Q. Right. And it was their money on the line
6 with regard to the company; right?
7 A. I don't know which relatives had money in the
8 company or not. They used to refer to it as Martin's
9 House of Nepotism.
10 Q. The Goodman family money was on the line;
11 right?
12 A. Somebody's money. Somebody who was named
13 Goodman had their money on the line.
14 Q. Fair enough. And Martin was at the top of
15 that list?
16 A. I believe so. Yes.
17 Q. Is it fair to say that because he was the
18 ultimate decision maker that he had the final authority on
19 decisions about story lines or characters or what books --
20 what new books would be begun and which ones would be
21 canceled?
22 A. He certainly had the final say on which books
23 would be begun and canceled, to answer the second part of
24 your question first.
25 Insofar as story lines are concerned, every
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1 his work. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes. I may have been wrong about that.
3 Q. You may have been wrong, but you wrote it.
4 A. Yes, I wrote it.
5 Q. Somewhere in the last two years; right?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. But now, because it's inconsistent with what
8 your prior testimony, you may have been wrong. Is that
9 your current testimony?
10 A. No, I just don't know where I heard that he
11 was paid.
12 Q. But you wrote it down anyway.
13 A. Yeah, I wrote it, and I think I may have been
14 wrong.
15 Q. By the way, it was Mr. Lee that made the
16 assignments as to which artist would work on which
17 particular book; right?
18 A. During this period?
19 Q. Yes, this was --
20 A. During the period of this? Yes.
21 Q. Yes, "this" being because this referred to
22 1965, I guess. During this period, you know late 50s,
23 early 60s, it was Mr. Lee who determined which artists
24 would work on which book; right? That was part of --
25 A. Yes.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you are aware, aren't you, that, for
3 example, Mr. Lieber, Larry Lieber, has said on many
4 occasions that he wrote full scripts for the comics that
5 he was doing. You're aware of that?
6 A. Yes, he has said that.
7 Q. And that, in fact, includes a number of the
8 comics that Jack was doing the artwork for; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. By the way, do you have any basis for
11 disagreeing with Mr. Lieber's statements that he would
12 write the scripts before the panels would be drawn?
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to what we're talking
14 about exactly.
15 Q. With regard to those comics that Mr. Lieber
16 wrote the scripts for, do you have any basis for
17 disagreeing that he wrote those scripts before the panels
18 were drawn?
19 A. My understanding is that Larry Lieber wrote
20 scripts before the panels were drawn, but that that
21 statement as you phrased it does not give a full portrait
22 of the process.
23 Q. Other than the phone call that you described
24 in 1969, do you have any other personal direct knowledge
25 of how the comic books that Lee and Kirby worked on
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1 A. When he was not given enough of a story line
2 from the putative writer to create a coherent story
3 without them.
4 I also say here, (Reading:) This breakdown of
5 the rules of writer and artist, with the artist
6 assuming much of what had traditionally been done
7 by writer, led to much confusion and debate
8 within the comics industry, community.
9 There are people in comics -- there are
10 artists in comics who have been in comics for 20 or 30 or
11 40 years who never invented a villain, recurring villain
12 or hero. They just drew what the writer told them to do.
13 Q. Isn't it true that often Mr. Kirby would
14 submit material and that he would be very upset when Stan
15 would widely make changes that widely deviated from what
16 Jack had intended?
17 A. That did happen.
18 Q. In fact, you wrote about it happening, didn't
19 you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it happened on a fairly regular basis,
22 didn't it?
23 A. I don't think I said it happened on a fairly
24 regular basis.
25 Q. Let's look at your book, 292. You write that,
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1 (Reading:) Sometimes Stan's would deviate
2 wildly from what Jack had intended. Jack didn't
3 like that either. He loved the stories he
4 developed and would often feel that Stan's word
5 balloons stripped some issue of its meaning or
6 inverted a key concept. Jack especially resented
7 it when Stan would take the first part of a story
8 in a different direction than he intended. Not
9 only would Jack feel his work was being harmed,
10 but it also meant that he would have to withdraw
11 the last half without pay, of course, to
12 correspond.
13 That's what you wrote here.
14 A. Redraw, not withdraw.
15 Q. Oh.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "To redraw the last half without pay, of
18 course, to correspond."
19 A. Yes. I wrote that. Yes.
20 Q. And you believe that to be accurate; right?
21 A. I believe that to be accurate. Yes.
22 Q. Because Stan would often take what was given
23 to him and totally change the meaning around, wouldn't he?
24 A. I said sometimes. You're saying often.
25 Q. Sometimes.
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1 A. I said sometimes.
2 Q. Okay. We'll agree on sometimes.
3 A. All right.
4 Q. Not always, but sometimes.
5 A. Yeah. Sometimes.
6 Q. But he had the right to do it all the time,
7 didn't he, --
8 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection.
9 Q. -- as the editor?
10 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for a legal conclusion.
11 Outside the scope of his testimony.
12 A. The right to do it?
13 Q. Yeah, as his job as editor.
14 MR. TOBEROFF: Excuse me. When I object,
15 you've got to pause --
16 THE WITNESS: Okay.
17 MR. TOBEROFF: -- and let me object.
18 THE WITNESS: I will learn to do that some
19 day.
20 MR. TOBEROFF: Thanks.
21 The objection is, as to Stan Lee's rights it
22 calls for a legal conclusion. It's outside the scope of
23 Mr. Evanier's expert assignment.
24 A. Can I have the question again in full?
25 Q. You understood that even though Mr. Lee, as
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1 have somebody else make the changes. Isn't that right?
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Same objection. Calls for a
3 legal conclusion.
4 A. He could, once he had purchased the material,
5 he could ask someone else to make the corrections. Or he
6 could -- or he could say he could not purchase the
7 material in its present state unless Jack made the
8 corrections.
9 What he could not do was to make the changes
10 in the material and then say, oh, we're not going to buy
11 this story or we're not going to buy this sequence. We're
12 going to send it back to Jack.
13 Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I'm trying
14 to answer the question you're asking me, which is --
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. -- compounded here somehow.
17 Q. You're aware that there are instances where
18 there was work submitted by Jack as part of this whole
19 process you have described in your report where he was
20 asked to make changes. And there was also work submitted
21 where Stan had somebody else make changes.
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Correct?
24 A. That is correct. Yes.
25 Q. And, in fact, there was situations where Stan
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1 where Jack did the entire writing on his own.
2 Q. Other than those, can you think of any others?
3 A. Then later, when he went back to Marvel in the
4 70s, there were quite a few stories.
5 Q. No, we're talking about in the 60s.
6 A. In the 60s I think that's the only ones. I
7 might have missed one.
8 Q. Any of the others --
9 A. Yeah, there was a story in one of the western
10 books, I believe, in the 60s.
11 Q. Do you know what time period? Between '58 and
12 '63 or later?
13 A. I believe that would have been later.
14 Q. Yeah. You also have written that Stan gave up
15 writing full scripts around 1962. Is that your
16 understanding?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So prior to 1962 he was writing full scripts?
19 A. No. Well, he started writing Marvel style
20 Marvel Method scripts around 1955 or -56, but he wrote
21 full scripts for some artists or some situations for a
22 while there.
23 During the period when they were not buying a
24 lot of material, he wrote a lot of full scripts so he
25 could get paid for them. The scripts that were done for
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1 inventory, he couldn't work Marvel Method because there
2 was no artist involved in those scripts. In those
3 projects the artist would come much later.
4 Q. After the scripts had been produced.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In your book on Kirby --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- page 299. Turn to that page.
9 A. We're using the K numbers; right?
10 Q. The K numbers?
11 A. Yeah. 299. Got it. Yes.
12 Q. And there's a drawing, pencil drawing, and
13 some handwritten notes. Do you see that?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. And could you tell me whose handwriting are
16 the handwritten notes?
17 A. I believe the handwriting notes are from Stan.
18 Q. And he's saying in one instance, "Jack, can
19 this be the" -- oh, boy.
20 A. The Rainbow Bridge.
21 Q. -- the Rainbow Bridge?"
22 And in another instance he's saying, "Put Oden
23 here." Is he telling him to move --
24 A. Omit Oden here. He'll cut into Masthead too
25 much. In other words, Oden will cut into the title letter
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1 when it's placed, so we have to keep that area clean.
2 So --
3 Q. Oh, that's the top one. I see.
4 A. -- let's put Oden in the bottom.
5 Q. So he's essentially telling him to move some
6 of the stuff on the drawing?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that something that he typically did after
9 seeing some of the drawings?
10 A. This is very rare. I think I say on the next
11 page that they almost never even worked this way. This is
12 a very rare artifact. It's one of the few times Jack ever
13 did a cover sketch like this.
14 Q. But this is an example of Jack actually giving
15 some pretty specific directions -- of Stan giving Jack
16 some pretty specific directions with regard to at least
17 this particular drawing; right?
18 A. I don't know they're that specific. "Can this
19 be the Rainbow Bridge?" Leaving it up to Jack to decide.
20 "Put Oden here somehow if you can." That's
21 leaving it up to Jack to decide.
22 Usually a cover usually when an editor goes
23 over a cover sketch -- and Jack didn't do very many cover
24 sketches in his career -- usually the editor does a much
25 more detailed composition. They would have something done
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1 in the office. They do an overlay and have another artist
2 maybe move things around and show where to put them.
3 This is very undetailed, a very undetailed set
4 of suggestions.
5 Q. It's fair to say that it's an example, at
6 least, of Mr. Lee giving at least some direction to Mr.
7 Kirby about how he should do this drawing. Isn't that
8 fair?
9 A. Very little direction. I'm not sure what
10 you're trying to get me to say here.
11 Q. I'm not trying to get you to say anything.
12 I'm trying to get some testimony here. That's all. Say
13 whatever you want.
14 A. As we've established before, there were times
15 when Stan sent things back to Jack and said, This has to
16 be -- you know, I can't use this in the form it's in.
17 Let's do something different. This is an example of that,
18 I would suppose.
19 Are we done with this book?
20 Q. Yeah. Don't let it go too far away. But
21 yeah.
22 A. All right. Okay. Can I get a glass of water
23 at some point here?
24 MR. QUINN: Why don't you get it now.
25 MR. TOBEROFF: I will get it.
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1 believe Stan sent Jack off to draw an important first
2 issue without preliminary sketches and conferences."
3 Right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And so isn't what you're saying here is
6 that obviously Stan and Jack had conferences before he
7 sent him off to draw.
8 A. Yes.
9 (Plaintiffs counsel confer.)
10 Q. On the two pages later, referring to the first
11 issue, it says, "The first issue was clearly cobbled up in
12 a hurry and does show some surface attempt to comply with
13 Goodman's directive and replicate DC's Justice League of
14 America."
15 What did you mean by that?
16 A. The cover scene on Fantastic Four No. 1
17 depicts a scene that appears nowhere in the story.
18 Designed a cover that doesn't connect with the story
19 therein, but it does kind of look a little like the
20 composition of a DC Comic called The Brave and the Bold,
21 issue No. 28, which first introduces the Justice League.
22 And Jack's layouts inside the comic, his page
23 layouts look more like a DC Comic in terms of the panel
24 shapes. It's like somebody had shown him Justice League
25 and said, Let's try and make the book look a little bit
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1 like that in the room helping flesh out whatever ideas you
2 had, change them, and bring in his input.
3 I'm not saying Stan is lying. I'm saying he's
4 choosing his words carefully, remembering a version. I
5 disagree with Stan about some aspects of Marvel history.
6 We've had friendly arguments about certain issues and
7 certain comics and how things came about and how they were
8 published. And sometimes I get him to agree with me. I
9 show him evidence.
10 Q. Well, one thing we've established, during this
11 period from '58 to '63, Stan was there, and you weren't.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You say in your expert report at page 15
14 carrying over to 16 that "It is also worth noting that
15 Stan Lee did not create any important characters either
16 before Jack Kirby first worked with Lee or after Jack
17 Kirby stopped working with Lee in 1970."
18 Do you see that bottom of 15 over to 16 in
19 your report?
20 A. Hold on here. Yes, I see that.
21 Q. After he stopped working for Lee in 1970, what
22 successful characters did Kirby create?
23 A. Well, he created a series for DC called The
24 New Gods. Featured a villain called Dark Side, one of the
25 most important villains in Allied DC Comics. Did a book
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And isn't that correct with regard to much of
3 your testimony? Most of the time you're just guessing;
4 isn't that right?
5 A. No, I don't think so.
6 Q. On page 16 of your report in the middle
7 paragraph under Mighty Thor, referring to The Mighty Thor
8 -- am I correct, by the way, Larry Lieber was the one who
9 actually wrote the script for The Mighty Thor?
10 A. Larry Lieber did the script for the first Thor
11 story in Journey into Mystery No. 83.
12 THE REPORTER: In -- what?
13 A. Thor story in Journey into Mystery No. 83.
14 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: As the day winds down, I get
16 less coherent.
17 THE REPORTER: And I get more tired.
18 Q. BY MR. QUINN: And was it your understanding
19 that Lieber wrote the script before Kirby drew the panels?
20 A. It's my understanding that Lieber wrote the
21 script before Kirby drew the panels. Yes.
22 Q. And is it also your understanding that Larry
23 Lieber named Thor's alter ego Don Blake?
24 A. Larry says he did.
25 Q. Do you have any reason to disbelieve him?
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1 Q. They're both lying, with a question mark.
2 A. I would not use the term "lying." I think they
3 both have their versions. And when I report the history,
4 I will report both of them and let the reader decide.
5 Q. You are aware that Larry Lieber was -- did --
6 was assigned to write the full script; correct?
7 A. Larry Lieber wrote a script. Yes.
8 Q. And he wrote the script before Heck drew the
9 -- before he drew the comic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what role does Kirby say he played in the
12 first issue of Iron Man?
13 A. Jack says he came up with the concept,
14 presented it to Stan as an idea that they would do
15 together. They talked it out. The idea was put on hold
16 because there was no place to do it at that moment. And
17 then subsequently Stan did it with Don Heck or put it into
18 Tales of Suspense and had Don Heck draw the first one. He
19 wasn't happy with what Heck did, so Jack came in and
20 started drawing it after that.
21 Let me finish. Jack also --
22 Q. Please. By all means finish.
23 A. And Jack also drew the cover of the first
24 issue, and on that cover he designed the look of Iron Man
25 and the idea of the character putting on this iron which
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EXHIBIT 10
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1 JOHN MORROW 1
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4 ------------------------------x
5 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC.,
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC.,
6 and MLV RIGHTS, LLC,
7 Plaintiffs,
8 v. Case No. 10-141-CMKF
9 LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J.
KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and
10 SUSAN N. KIRBY,
11 Defendants.
12 ------------------------------x
13
14 Video Deposition of JOHN MORROW

15 (Taken by Plaintiffs)
16 Raleigh, North Carolina
17 January 10, 2011
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by: Marisa Munoz-Vourakis -

RMR, CRR and Notary Public
24
25 TSG JOB NO. 35702
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2 Q. And that continues today?
3 A. It does. I think we actually told them we
4 would be dropping it to just about 800 an issue now
5 because of the economy and all sales have kind of
6 declined.
7 Q. Do you have any understanding with
8 Mr. Toberoff with regard to any arrangement to publish
9 anything about this case in consideration of your
10 providing a report?
11 A. No. No. I hope after it's all said and
12 done that I can interview various parties involved, if
13 they're allowed to talk about it. But, no, we don't
14 have an arrangement or anything like that.
15 Q. Have you ever had any business dealings
16 with Mr. Toberoff prior to being contacted in
17 connection with this case?
18 A. No, other than my initial request to get an
19 interview from him, which never resulted in anything.
20 Q. How old are you?
21 A. About 48.
22 Q. And would you summarize your educational
23 background, beginning with high school?
24 A. Sure. Twelve years of high school diploma,
25 four-year college degree with a bachelor in fine arts.
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2 that Jack was going to be working on in the future?
3 A. I'm not sure. You would need to check with
4 Mark. I just recall Mark said he was there when Stan
5 and Jack were hashing out a story over the phone. So I
6 know recall whether it was I think it was either for
7 Fantastic Four or Thor, which were the two main books
8 he was doing at the time, but I don't recall which one.
9 And I recall the specifics of, you know, was it one
10 that Jack had already halfway drawn and they were
11 making changes to or it was one that Jack was about to
12 begin, I'm not sure. That's why Mark would be able to
13 answer.
14 Q. Do you have an understanding as to whether
15 or not Stan Lee and Jack Kirby communicated with one
16 another about the work that Jack was engaged in once he
17 began this story and was somewhere between the
18 beginning and the end?
19 A. Well, actually I can't say that I do, no.
20 I've not heard any instances that I can recall right
21 now of, for instance, Stan calling in the middle while
22 Jack was drawing a story and changing anything. There
23 are instances of the Marvel offices, for instance, if a
24 book wasn't doing well, quite often, Stan would ask
25 Jack Kirby to take it over. In doing so, Marvel
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2 offices would send Jack these little photostats of say
3 like the previous issue, so he could see where he's
4 kind of jumping off from. I have access to a lot of
5 those from the family. They kept those for years and
6 years and have loaned them to me for the magazine.
7 Those are interesting historically, because
8 you can kind of see well, first of all, why would --
9 for instance, why would Jack have a Steve Ditko set of
10 Hulk stats with a Steve Ditco Hulk story? You look and
11 see oh, the issue after that is one where Jack took it
12 over. Okay, that's why it's in Jack's files.
13 There's a lot of instances of that where
14 you would see some totally unrelated artist's work in
15 Jack's files. They were sending material to Jack so he
16 could see where he was taking over from.
17 But as far as -- back to the question as
18 far as knowledge of instances of Stan, for instance,
19 getting involved while Jack was doing something? I
20 don't really recall those. Everything I've seen, it's
21 a pretty straightforward thing. There would be some
22 kind of story conference, whatever that would entail,
23 and then Jack would go, do his work, he was drawing the
24 pages, plot them, write margins in the notes, in a lot
25 of instances, when he was done, bring them back in.
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2 Q. Is it your understanding that between '58
3 and '63, 1958 and 1963, all of the work that Jack Kirby
4 did that was published by Marvel was done utilizing the
5 so-called Marvel method?
6 A. Is it my understanding that all of it was?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. No, that's not my understanding. My
9 understanding was that some was. There's, as far as
10 which ones were and which ones weren't, you know, my
11 understanding is that Larry Lieber has said that he
12 provided scripts on some stories to Jack, and Jack was
13 working from full script, but that has some pitfalls to
14 it too. Because if you go back to when Simon and Kirby
15 were working for DC in the '40s, they had writers that
16 would come in and work for them and provide scripts,
17 and there's famous stories of writers would bring in
18 their scripts to Joe Simon or Jack Kirby studio, and as
19 they were leaving, they would see pages floating out
20 the window where they would just look at them and go
21 well, we will just do it ourselves. They would
22 completely write their own scripts, even though they
23 commissioned somebody to do one.
24 So Kirby's history bears out that. It's
25 just he was a very creative person, and anything he
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2 worked on he put his stamp on, and most publishers were
3 wise enough to let him do it, because he was so
4 creative and would come up with such interesting work.
5 Q. Is it correct that on some occasions during
6 this period, from '58 to '63, you understand that Jack
7 was given conventional scripts for work?
8 A. I have heard Larry Lieber say that he
9 provided full scripts for some material. I've not seen
10 those scripts. I've not seen any scripts from Stan
11 from then, and I've not -- of all the interviews I've
12 read with Stan, I've not heard Stan say that they
13 weren't working Marvel method. Stan has always been
14 very proud about touting the Marvel method, because he
15 felt that was something they pioneered. I've not seen
16 him go on the record and say no, I wasn't giving Jack
17 scripts on all this stuff.
18 Q. Let's make sure our lexicon is the same.
19 Would you describe what you understand the
20 Marvel method to be?
21 A. Oh, sure. Marvel method, as I understand
22 it, is the, well, we'll use the term writer and artist,
23 even though some can be used different term. The
24 writer or scripter and the artist get together, discuss
25 an idea, then the artist will go back to his studio,
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2 wherever it is he does his work, and then based on that
3 initial story conference, break the story down into
4 panels, page by page, pace it the way the artist feels
5 it should be, add a lot of characterization and
6 possibly some new characters, things like that, and
7 then bring the finished story, finished pages back in
8 to submit for publication.
9 At that point, the writer would take the
10 pencil pages, in some cases they might actually type a
11 script for the letterer to go by. In some cases, they
12 might actually go and pencil things in margins or write
13 actual balloons on there. At that point, the art is
14 passed on to the letterer. They ink the lettering on
15 there and the balloons. It's passed on to the inker,
16 so it goes to the artist's pencil drawings, so that
17 they'll reproduce in blank ink, and, you know, I mean,
18 that's generally the Marvel method. They get together
19 for story conference. The artist goes and does his
20 work and then turns the work back in.
21 Q. Would you distinguish that from what I'll
22 call the conventional method, or the method that was
23 used prior to the introduction of the Marvel method?
24 A. Very different. The method that DC comics
25 had always used up through that period, the writer
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2 that point after Joe Simon and Jack Kirby left the
3 company.
4 Q. And what role, if any, did Mr. Goodman play
5 in the company at that time?
6 A. Oh, well, he was the publisher. I'm
7 assuming he handled all the money and also helped --
8 made publishing decisions about the company like any
9 publisher would.
10 Q. Did he direct Stan Lee in the type of
11 stories to publish?
12 A. Based on Stan's accounts of working with
13 Martin Goodman in the '60s, I would say, I would assume
14 definitely yes, because he was certainly involved, to
15 some extent, in the '60s.
16 So I -- there's no reason to think he
17 wouldn't have been involved with Stan in the '40s when
18 Stan was just starting out.
19 Q. When you say run, you're reflecting Stan's
20 position as an editor or as the editor?
21 A. Editor-in-chief, yes.
22 Q. Did he have that title in 1941?
23 A. I'm not sure he had the official title
24 editor-in-chief. I believe he had the title of editor.
25 Q. Turning to page five, the first sentence of
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2 Q. Do you have any information to the effect
3 that Stan -- that Jack Kirby began drawing Sgt. Fury
4 and the Howling Commandos before getting an assignment
5 from Stan to do so?
6 A. No, not that he began drawing it, no.
7 Q. Had Stan Lee ever done war comics for
8 Marvel before Nick Fury?
9 A. Yes, he had.
10 Q. Was there something unique about Sgt. Fury
11 and this Howling Commandos and the war of comic genre?
12 A. Yes, there was.
13 Q. What was unique about it?
14 A. Sgt. Fury was, for me, the first war comic
15 I actually could read. I never enjoyed war comics.
16 There was something about the feel and the tone of it
17 and the level of action in it that I really enjoyed.
18 At that point, I had never discovered Kirby's earlier
19 war comics. But when I first saw Sgt. Fury, it was
20 like, okay, this is almost like superhero comics, which
21 I like, but done as a war comic. It had a lot of the
22 same trademarks that the superhero comics had.
23 Q. It was unique in the sense that you liked
24 it?
25 A. It was unique in the sense that it was
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2 going to be here longer than we need to be if you are
3 answering questions I haven't asked you.
4 With respect to the X-Men, are you aware of
5 any X-Men characters that were the sole creation of
6 Jack Kirby?
7 A. The sole creation of Jack Kirby? No, not
8 sole creation.
9 Q. Do you have any information with regard to
10 the -- Kirby's contribution to any of the X-Men
11 characters?
12 A. No specific information I can add, no.
13 Q. Are you aware of whether Marvel ever made
14 changes in artwork that Jack Kirby submitted and was
15 paid for after submission?
16 A. That they made changes after Kirby was paid
17 for the accepted artwork?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes, there were many instances.
20 Q. And is it true that the inker would
21 typically be selected by the editor at Marvel, and in
22 most cases during the period we're talking about, '58
23 to '63, Stan Lee?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And some inkers would do more modification
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2 to pencils than others?
3 A. Yes, stylistically speaking, their styles
4 were a little heavier, so more changes would be made.
5 Q. Apart from instances that you've already
6 described, are you aware of any instances in which Stan
7 asked Kirby to make corrections in work that he
8 submitted that Kirby did make and received payment for?
9 A. Any instances where he made changes and was
10 paid for making the changes?
11 Q. Was submitted. Let's just take an easy
12 example. Submitted a story and Stan asked him to make
13 changes on certain panels in the story right on the
14 spot in the office?
15 A. Yes, there were some instances of that.
16 There's no indication that he was paid additionally for
17 making those changes.
18 Q. Are you aware of any instance in which Jack
19 Kirby refused to make changes in accordance with
20 directions he received from Stan or any other editor at
21 Marvel?
22 A. I cannot think of one. Jack was a very
23 dedicated employee and had a good work ethic and
24 generally did what the editor told him. He may not
25 have always been happy about them, but.
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2 Q. I think you indicated earlier, I just want
3 to make sure I'm clear for the record, is it your
4 understanding that Marvel had the right to make changes
5 in the work submitted by Kirby?
6 A. Well, that's generally the job of an editor
7 in any publishing house. The editor accepts the work
8 and they edit it.
9 Q. So the answer would be --
10 A. Would be yes. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know whether Jack Kirby ever
12 received any vacation pay from Marvel?
13 A. No, none that I'm aware of.
14 Q. Well, are you aware that he didn't receive
15 vacation pay?
16 A. My understanding is that he did not, and
17 that's why he produced so many pages at such a faster
18 rate than most of the other artists, so that he could
19 keep up with his family finances and be able to take a
20 little time off once in a while.
21 Q. Am I correct that you cannot testify from
22 firsthand knowledge that throughout Mr. Kirby's career
23 with Marvel, he never received any form of vacation
24 pay?
25 A. From firsthand knowledge, no, I cannot.
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2 ring that gave him spider powers; whereas The Fly was
3 an orphan boy that had a magic ring that gave him fly
4 powers. That seemed too similar. But that's, again,
5 just my assumption.
6 Q. Is there any other similarities, in your
7 view, between The Fly and Spider-Man?
8 A. None that I can think of. When you say
9 Spider-Man as he is today or Spider-Man as Jack Kirby
10 would have presented it?
11 Q. Spider-Man as he was depicted in Amazing
12 Fantasy number 15?
13 A. He was depicted by Steve Ditko in Amazing
14 Fantasy 15. Oh, well, no, there's really not much
15 similarity between the published version of Spider-Man,
16 Amazing Fantasy 15 and The Fly.
17 Q. I've placed before you Exhibit 16, which is
18 a copy of a document I pulled off the web site
19 indicated on the bottom of the page a week or so ago.
20 (The document referred to was marked
21 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 16 for
22 identification.)
23 Q. And on the third page of this document,
24 there are some penciled drawings.
25 Are these the Ditko drawings that you
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2 referred to a minute ago, comparing Kirby's Spider-Man
3 with Ditko's Spider-Man?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you agree that Kirby's Spider-Man
6 looks like the Simon Kirby Captain America character?
7 A. There are similarities certainly, but there
8 are similarities among most superhero costumes. It's
9 kind of that's just the way superheros are drawn. I
10 think the finished Spider-Man is obviously very
11 different from either of the other two.
12 Q. And in this document, there is a depiction
13 of The Fly, particularly on the second page on a couple
14 of covers, do you see those?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would you agree that the look of The
17 Fly is substantially different than the look of
18 Spider-Man?
19 A. Yes, I would.
20 Q. I'd like to direct your attention again to
21 your report in Exhibit 9, the final version, and the
22 first sentence of your conclusion says, and I'm going
23 to quote it: "To recap, I believe that Kirby's work
24 for Marvel from 1958 to 1963 was not 'work for hire'".
25 I had understood you earlier to have
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2 called in to work on the initial issues before handing
3 it off to others to continue.
4 Did you have in mind the other new series
5 that you were referring to there?
6 A. Ironman. For instance, Daredevil, Kirby
7 was brought in in some capacity for his covers by him.
8 There are some character concept drawings by Kirby.
9 The character called the Plunderer, and I forget the
10 other one that are in early Daredevil stories that are
11 all -- it's Kirby giving a sketch of what it should
12 look like and writing notes off to the side of the
13 character's, you know, personality and his powers and
14 things like that, that were submitted to the artist who
15 was drawing that issue to go by.
16 Q. Do you know who wrote the first issue of
17 Ironman?
18 A. I believe Larry Lieber scripted that,
19 didn't he?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. I'm telling you. I'm asking you.
23 Is it your understanding that Larry Lieber
24 did it?
25 A. I would say yes.
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2 Q. I don't want to testify.
3 And who drew that issue?
4 A. That's Don Heck, I believe.
5 Q. And is it your recollection that Jack Kirby
6 was asked to do the cover?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, what was the -- this Exhibit 24 an
9 introduction to?
10 A. Well, based on what I'm reading here, I'm
11 assuming this was the one I did for the S.H.I.E.L.D.
12 series, but let's see, since I'm talking about Shield
13 here, it must have been for the Agent of Shield
14 collection.
15 Q. Now, in the fifth paragraph, you say in the
16 first sentence: While Stan scripted most of the issues
17 presented here, Kirby was undoubtedly the guiding
18 creative force.
19 What did you mean by Stan scripted most of
20 the issues?
21 A. Scripted meaning dialogue, put the words in
22 the balloons.
23 Q. You don't mean creating the scripts?
24 A. No, not working from the script, no.
25 Scripting and dialoguing are kind of used
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2 A. Yes. Well, with help from Shane Foley and
3 Sean Kleefeld.
4 Q. And it begins with the sentence: It wasn't
5 all that unusual for Jack Kirby to occasionally end up
6 with some unused pencil pages from his stories.
7 Were those pages -- were you referring to
8 pages that would not have been submitted by Jack to
9 Marvel?
10 A. Generally, yes.
11 Q. Do you recall Stan Lee ever altering any
12 concept for a story illustrated by Jack Kirby?
13 A. Altering it in what way?
14 Q. Changing character motivations, plot?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That was part of the normal editorial
17 process?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for speculation.
21 Q. I've placed before you a document entitled
22 Apokolips, spelled A-P-O-K-O-L-I-P-S, Now, A Major
23 Production. Can you tell me what this is?
24 A. Yes, this is an article I wrote on
25 Mr. Kirby's original version of a 1984 story that he
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EXHIBIT 15
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August 31, 2009
DISNEY TO ACQUIRE MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT
Worldwide leader in family entertainment agrees to acquire Marvel and its portfolio of over 5,000 characters
Acquisition highlights Disney's strategic focus on quality branded content, technological innovation and international
expansion to build long-term shareholder value
Burbank, CA and New York, NY, August 31, 2009 �Building on its strategy of delivering quality branded content to people
around the world, The Walt Disney Company (NYSE:DIS) has agreed to acquire Marvel Entertainment, Inc. (NYSE:MVL) in
a stock and cash transaction, the companies announced today.
Under the terms of the agreement and based on the closing price of Disney on August 28, 2009, Marvel shareholders would
receive a total of $30 per share in cash plus approximately 0.745 Disney shares for each Marvel share they own. At closing,
the amount of cash and stock will be adjusted if necessary so that the total value of the Disney stock issued as merger
consideration based on its trading value at that time is not less than 40% of the total merger consideration.
Based on the closing price of Disney stock on Friday, August 28, the transaction value is $50 per Marvel share or
approximately $4 billion.
"This transaction combines Marvel's strong global brand and world-renowned library of characters including Iron Man,
Spider-Man, X-Men, Captain America, Fantastic Four and Thor with Disney's creative skills, unparalleled global portfolio of
entertainment properties, and a business structure that maximizes the value of creative properties across multiple platforms
and territories," said Robert A. Iger, President and Chief Executive Officer of The Walt Disney Company. "Ike Perlmutter and
his team have done an impressive job of nurturing these properties and have created significant value. We are pleased to
bring this talent and these great assets to Disney."
"We believe that adding Marvel to Disney's unique portfolio of brands provides significant opportunities for long-term growth
and value creation," Iger said.
"Disney is the perfect home for Marvel's fantastic library of characters given its proven ability to expand content creation and
licensing businesses," said Ike Perlmutter, Marvel's Chief Executive Officer. "This is an unparalleled opportunity for Marvel
to build upon its vibrant brand and character properties by accessing Disney's tremendous global organization and
infrastructure around the world."
Under the deal, Disney will acquire ownership of Marvel including its more than 5,000 Marvel characters. Mr. Perlmutter will
oversee the Marvel properties, and will work directly with Disney's global lines of business to build and further integrate
Marvel's properties.
The Boards of Directors of Disney and Marvel have each approved the transaction, which is subject to clearance under the
Hart-Scott-Rodino Antitrust Improvements Act, certain non-United States merger control regulations, effectiveness of a
registration statement with respect to Disney shares issued in the transaction and other customary closing conditions. The
agreement will require the approval of Marvel shareholders. Marvel was advised on the transaction by BofA Merrill Lynch.
Investor Conference Call:
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An investor conference call will take place at approximately 10:15 a.m. EDT / 7:15 a.m. PDT today, August 31, 2009. To
listen to the Webcast, turn your browser to http://corporate.disney.go.com/investors/presentations.html or dial in domestically
at 800-260-8140 or internationally at 617-614-3672. For both dial-in numbers, the participant pass code is 51214527.
The discussion will be available via replay on the Disney investors website through September 14, 2009 at 7:00 PM
EDT/4:00 PM PDT.
About The Walt Disney Company

The Walt Disney Company, together with its subsidiaries and affiliates, is a leading diversified international family
entertainment and media enterprise with five business segments: media networks, parks and resorts, studio entertainment,
interactive media and consumer products. Disney is a Dow 30 company with revenues of nearly $38 billion in its most recent
fiscal year.
About Marvel Entertainment, Inc.

Marvel Entertainment, Inc. is one of the world's most prominent character-based entertainment companies, built on a library
of over 5,000 characters featured in a variety of media over seventy years. Marvel utilizes its character franchises in
licensing, entertainment (via Marvel Studios and Marvel Animation) and publishing (via Marvel Comics).
Forward-Looking Statements:
Certain statements in this communication may constitute "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private
Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such statements relate to a variety of matters, including but not limited to: the
operations of the businesses of Disney and Marvel separately and as a combined entity; the timing and consummation of
the proposed merger transaction; the expected benefits of the integration of the two companies; the combined company's
plans, objectives, expectations and intentions and other statements that are not historical fact. These statements are made
on the basis of the current beliefs, expectations and assumptions of the management of Disney and Marvel regarding future
events and are subject to significant risks and uncertainty. Investors are cautioned not to place undue reliance on any such
forward-looking statements, which speak only as of the date they are made. Neither Disney nor Marvel undertakes any
obligation to update or revise these statements, whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.
Actual results may differ materially from those expressed or implied. Such differences may result from a variety of factors,
including but not limited to:
• legal or regulatory proceedings or other matters that affect the timing or ability to complete the transactions as
contemplated;
• the possibility that the expected synergies from the proposed merger will not be realized, or will not be realized
within the anticipated time period; the risk that the businesses will not be integrated successfully;
• the possibility of disruption from the merger making it more difficult to maintain business and operational
relationships;
• the possibility that the merger does not close, including but not limited to, due to the failure to satisfy the closing
conditions;
• any actions taken by either of the companies, including but not limited to, restructuring or strategic initiatives
(including capital investments or asset acquisitions or dispositions);
• developments beyond the companies' control, including but not limited to: changes in domestic or global economic
conditions, competitive conditions and consumer preferences; adverse weather conditions or natural disasters;
health concerns; international, political or military developments; and technological developments.
JA601
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Additional factors that may cause results to differ materially from those described in the forward-looking statements are set
forth in the Annual Report on Form 10-K of Disney for the year ended September 27, 2008, which was filed with the
Securities and Exchange Commission ("SEC") on November 20, 2008, under the heading "Item 1A�Risk Factors" and in
the Annual Report on Form 10-K of Marvel for the year ended December 31, 2008, which was filed with the SEC on
February 27, 2009, under the heading "Item 1A�Risk Factors," and in subsequent reports on Forms 10-Q and 8-K and
other filings made with the SEC by each of Marvel and Disney.
Important Merger Information and Additional Information:
This communication does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities or a solicitation of
any vote or approval. In connection with the proposed transaction, Disney and Marvel will file relevant materials with the
SEC. Disney will file a Registration Statement on Form S-4 that includes a proxy statement of Marvel and which also
constitutes a prospectus of Disney. Marvel will mail the proxy statement/prospectus to its stockholders. Investors are urged
to read the proxy statement/prospectus regarding the proposed transaction when it becomes available, because it
will contain important information. The proxy statement/prospectus and other documents that will be filed by Disney and
Marvel with the SEC will be available free of charge at the SEC's website, www.sec.gov, or by directing a request when such
a filing is made to The Walt Disney Company, 500 South Buena Vista Street, Burbank, CA 91521-9722, Attention:
Shareholder Services or by directing a request when such a filing is made to Marvel Entertainment, Inc., 417 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10016, Attention: Corporate Secretary.
Disney, Marvel, their respective directors and certain of their executive officers may be considered participants in the
solicitation of proxies in connection with the proposed transaction. Information about the directors and executive officers
of Marvel is set forth in its definitive proxy statement, which was filed with the SEC on March 24, 2009. Information
about the directors and executive officers of Disney is set forth in its definitive proxy statement, which was filed
with the SEC on January 16, 2009.Investors may obtain additional information regarding the interests of such participants
by reading the proxy statement/prospectus Disney and Marvel will file with the SEC when it becomes available.
###
Press Contacts
Zenia Mucha
Corporate Communications
(818) 560-5300
Jonathan Friedland
Corporate Communications
818-560-8306
Lowell Singer
Investor Relations
818-560-6601
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EXHIBIT 17
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wi+.hout 11mi+.at.ion ~.~n .ut jn~+.. -..n f!XA-mp1 e_. ~11 the MA'l1lfiJU,S
. -~
listed in Solloduio• l, ~ ~nd 3, as alllend•d, ~ttaehed her•to,
l Jl, Everything relating in ~ny WIJ.Y to any MAtERIALS
~nd RIGJ!TS e.nd. o.n:r .·p~pers evidencing an ownerolji;l, elallll 1n.nny
MA'I'El\!AI..S and m:oH:rs shail "• ;-h;roioAll:r trano~•r<ed :or •urrondere
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to th~ aoodma.M or tlicir designees.·
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...,.. • l C, It ia tlie Si;tentl.on of. the parties ths.t by this
..... •.
as.signlllent i'i:..:'!JYl.s trans torrill& t~ Magazine bg.,.ent Co•• !ne•
&ny !Uid O.U AA'1'NJ!ll\L8 e.nd IHUH'l'B he llla)' OU:IIll, l1ava or e<>lltreO.
or h3.s o:laimvd, ha.d or oont:r:.ollt~d in thi!. past 1n· li.tly way whats.o...
'
..•. over ¢6Mer!ll.ng ·olt' l'olat~~e: :tp Captain Aroeri<ia Md nny othor.-o.('
the aforii.s~id HA'litt!AlS lf.nd.'R!OH't$J and that/1:.•..::y ~hali ha.ve n~ '!
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rurth~r cle.ini ot ~y kindari.ntng out of or relstins-:W ·.,,IY P)'St 'I
the:J.r a.l'f'u:iB.tea~
1.: bustneSs. relationship tilth" the Goodman>!.,
' . . . or'
I . pr~decCac'orc or $Ueoosooro :1:n i.nte;cmt. -... ·· ·
l'l 2. -~~..(~t"!-...'f. .hereby wArrant.~ .thnt he hn.? not ass~ign~d~,. c
lie•n$ed, or pl~4B~ !llld hl>.S not attempted or·;urported to assign,
l1oenoe, or pled&o o.ny ot the Y.ATERIJ'iis and lU\lll:tS to anyono other
•••q 111\l..
IIE11E
- ..'-~11
- 2 -
JA605
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Page
j?rr . ,
~ :. ·. ~ . . '·.'
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than thu: Goodmans, thetr affUia.tez: 1 prad~o&_la;ors- or ~ueoossora:
:In l.tlterost, Md/qr tbeJ.r <lesi!;t\ees a:>d that he WJll not dt> SO
l.n the t11ture.
~· /\Ic~·ft/" 'ahall exeoute or ea.uce tc be t"Xcouted upon
.. request 'h;t tht: Ooo~:1 1 tha1r atf'Uia.tt:s or successors ~

interest and/or desienees, any and all addltionnl ·n~plications,
&.S!lignment!!, otnt(ml:anta, plea.d.ine.s,

. or othM" p~tpers uhieh
. c.re .
_,_. rlt:~ed by thetll to be neecasl\ry cir ~P?Z'O,Pr'1&t.G tor et:tect1;rtg t.he
trc.nGf"or of rit;hta hQ;v(lin l"wt,dted or -rt),.. !'i<l"~m··{nc the l:renet"it
.and exclusive enjo~ent there?~
to the Goo~~ans, their •fftli~tee
.,
su~cassOrs in interest, Bnd/o~ designee,.
·. 4.l:,(r.l~&./:·a.sr.ees not to .~onte_st e1 ther d1rcetlY Qr

l.tld~reetl:r the fUll c.n~ oOll\pleto ownorsn~p by the Gooilttans, ·
. '
·; '·
'• I
their o.rtui.at~s .. ·des._ignee$., o:r sUc:.cnssors in int~ares.t, ot all
··..:·
rl.!\ht, title •M 11_1terost in and to the MATRlliAT.S IJ.!Id RIGHTS or
~- 'tho validity or the HI!.lllTS> Which.lllay b~ conferred on M"""':lnc
. ·~
·,.· ·- .
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.
~ ,
~Scm.cnt co.~.- .:r~a~~ by this Aeremt~~t, .or 'CO. tuiniQt 9ihW'11' ln
5o"·t3.o~.
bplos of such p;ollthited eontostt.t1on ]<o\lld be~

wit-pout .ltmit&tion,. &~plying for copyri&ht, 'rp..newal eopyri~t.
tra.c!oma.rk•, p~tents, et~, for tn.c lOOERIALS and RIGHTS nere1!' .
ifp~cificd or thil publiCation by J:}}iJ'f or hia o.~.u~ne or a.s;eat•
'ot, ;t.t'eraf7 J1'rnJH'lrtr Vh~~ "!oui.a ·intrinn,e ~pon,. yiorate ~r De: .
eoniustnll,lY similar to •uch Mt\TEliJAr,S ~nd nxoHTS.. ...:
~. K;·ifP').e.chnoalcdee.s :a.nd. •erec• that a.n hlo work on·
the MATER!~'3> and all his HorJt \-lh1ch created or relattd to the
!tlOll~ ~ t-{as done U!'J. ttn ttlllploy~e for hirtJ of tho Gaod:nantt •.
6, Tllio /tc;reOlllont shal.l be l:>!n<iinc upon tho p~r~1oz .

·hereto,. their ·n.ftil iatO$ and sub~iclia r~~s, J.Cc;t\l ropr'occntll. tivos.
tucecsso~a and prcdecenso~~ in intcrc~t. nnd ~cc1gna.
JA606
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Filed 02/25/11 3015 of 6
Page
1. ?be invalidity of any p£~~isinn o~ part hereof 04
rule or ~egul~tion ot any State~ The F~d~ral covarnmon~ or any

agency~ 5hat~ not r~l1wve ~ny ~rty f:om it9 obligation under,
nor deprive any party of the ndv~ntag~¥ of, any other proviaio~
or part of thh hqra.em&n.t ..
ItA:! ;o ;9n
Datod' _J..,vti..,;_"_ _,__.);"-9~""0
Maga:dm:• M<'!na~ement co"' tnc.
ay,tLdzL
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CONFIDENTIM.
MARVEL0014575
JA607
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Page
STATE o;· CJU,JFOIUUA)

) ns. t
COO~'l'Y 6F VENTURh )
. ' '(1.; . 117;}..

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on t.hh !/fl -ciay of ~ ~ bafo:t@ 11'10 pcruonall:r
cam~ .._}icJ..!.. /:tlldf to lnO imoo.m <md. )tna..n to till!" t<':> be the L.....:tivi.duAl
desc~ibed in and WhO exacueed Lhe fo~egotns instru~t and

acknwledged t't;lat he or;:aro:tu.l.ly n!'11d nnd examined the :;o.l'l\0 and
STAT» 0~ NEW YORK )

) ss.;
C!lUl!'rt C1li' Nl!>l YO IlK)
:Wt!i! I 't'7Y'
day of ~t ~, b9!ore me pcrGorully
me 'kno•v;•n. an<l khown to ·roe tn bo authori7.1':t
~nd t"-JI'lpci'WCfCd b~ Mac;Ja£ine., Management Co to f :Cno. to OX.OC\lte
it.!at:t'ltments nuc:h us the to.reqol.ng: on ita· behalf nnd ha Qu1;t

ac~owledged
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to we thAt he had car~fully r~aU ane examined ·t~e
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g~;!lj~~] ~~·~~"'f~~~•nn
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JA608
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 17
EXHIBIT 18
JA609
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 17
An Interview with
Stan Lee
lEONARD P1ns, JR. I 1981
Previously unputJ'ished. Printed by

permission ol Leonard Pitts, Jr.
Pitts: You came to Marvel in 1939 Why?

Lee: I needed a job. I had just graduated high school and I was looking
in the paper; at the Waflt ad\ dnd I 'aw on ad for a comic book company
that needed somebody to help out~somebody with writing ability to
dbo be a go-fer_ I figure I must've been the only guy who an;wered
the ad, because I got the job.
Pitts: How did you know you had wrillng abrlrty?

Lee: Oh, I had done a lot of writing in high >chooi. There was a new'-
paper then called the New York Herald /'ribune. and they had un essay
conte<I lor hi gil school students called the Hrgge<t News of the Week
contest. You had to write a 500-word article about what you lhought
was the biggest news event of the week_ I entEred it for three weeks
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runmng and I won i! for the three w~eks l'he editor called and asked rn0
to slop enl~nng the conie>t and grve 'omeone dsc a chanr.e
Then he >aid. "What do you want to be, when you becorne a per-
lei"?., And I >aid, "I'd like to be an actor," because at that lime t~a\'s
what I thought 1 wanted. Hf sa.Ld ·'Don't be crazy_ You ought to b<> a
writer." Ard I prevrously had a JOb writing foro ho1p•tal--wrilrng pubilc-
,ty re!ea>es. That wos 1pare-time stuH wh1le I wa' in h1gh v:hool. I got a
job for one ot the news serv.ce': I wrote obrtuanes of famous people
who were s\Eil alive, so that wlwn they die. the obituary is all ready to
put in the papc•r_ But I quit becau1e I got very depres.1ed writing about
living people rn the p~st tense_
Pitts: What did you i:nd when you got to Timely Comic>?
Lee: I found a very small staff. It was just '11e and a few other peoplf,
and we only were publi<hing abou: three or four rnagannes a month.
I did a lrttle of everything_ I went down and got people their IL,nches and
I i 11ied the inkwells and I did some proofreading and I did 1ome copy-
writrng. Utle by little, I began lo write stories.
The lelia who had been the editor, he quit after a whr!e, and there
was nobody around to replace hrrn, so the publisher asked me if I couid
hold the job down temporarily unbl he got 'omebody else. At that time,
I was seventeen, and I gwess he drdn't fig-"re J seventeen,year-old was
qualifred to be the editor. I sard, "Sur~. I can do rt" He gave me a
chance at rt. and I think he forgot all about me, because he never hired
anybudy elw, co I >tayed there ever 51nce
Pitts: I get the rmpression that he didn't havf a lot of time to pay
attention to tile comics anyway. Didn't he have other things he wa>
puiJirshing?
Lee: He had other magazines, but he paid quite a bil of attention to the
l'Omlcs, too_ He was much more involved in the early days than later on.
Pitl$: 0 kay, so fur the next M-en ty or t~irty year5 you were there turning
out monster stories-
Lee• Well, I did everything. We worked accordrrg to whatever the trend
was. If thHe was a trend for cowboy books, we did two dozen cowboy
tit!es. When romance books carne In, we did two dozen romance books.
We were ju;t a volume publisher. Whatever was. trendy at the moment
we publ.shed_ We did teer,age hooks, such as Millie t~e tilode!, Ch;!i
and /-fer Frrends . _on and on. We did Kid Colt, Two Gun krd-my
i
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publiSher loveo Hw rHrre Ktd--lile We,1em K1d, R1ngo K1d, r<awh1d~
Krd, Black /Uder, J\paU~e• K1d. We d1d fantasy OOoks-)lfJr;ge rco!cs,

A<;tc1mh1ng Ta/9<. loumey Into l)nknown WoriJs, l)otdrlrly Tale<,
Adv~ntHre\ Into /error.We d'd wJ< stories- --Combat l<e!iy, Com/JA
Casey, B,,U/drdd. Batt!dront, Bcotticground, Combat V-ie d1d
romancc---~Ay lov~. Your /_ovc, i-ll< Lov€. 1/er t.ove. And lf:ose ;;rc i~<t
a f<·w example>, I he t1p of the 'ccberg. Just whatever w;;s a name, we
Chrcw 1n and <lid the books ~lone oi them were partrcularly good, none
ot them were ;oartiruiariy had_ filey Wftf l"'t pmdudion JOb\.
Pitts: But, you w-eren't g~tt1ng your creative JOII,e\ at th10 ;undure.
L~e: No. I wa> ;u>t dntng w~1t my pubii,her a; ked me to do_ Being
yaung, I enJoye-D the feelmg ot Importance of bcmg editor and art drr~c
tar and head wntcr It n0vcr occurred tom~ tha.t what I wa1 do1ng
wasn't all tilat great I mp,,n, 1\WdS adequate. We wNe making moi'CY,
but nothng lhdt anybody could really brag about
Pitts: I know you've been asked :his next questron c. rrttllion tmw>, but
I ilop~ you won't m1nd mak1ng rt a <11111'on dnd one. wht was the event
lhJl c~ongfd 1t ai! «Wur•d?
Lee; Well, o> far as I can cencember, I was abouC to qu1t twas really
bored with what I was doing lhs was about 1960_ And my wile ;a1d,
"B€iore you leave, ;ust once wily don't you try to put out the kind of
books you your;e;f would lrke to doT' So I rhd.
Mortin Goodman, my publisrer at the trrr>e, told me tilat he ilad
h~ard that DC Comk> had a book culled the Ju>lxe League or til~
Justrce Soocty. I can't remember-one of tho<e. And •t was seiling
ratiler well. He sa<d, "Wily don't we aho put out d book with a team of
<uperileroes?-' So I >aid okcly, bull decided to do it ddferently for once
That was when I came up with lhe idea ol the Fantastic four. I dec1d€d
to try to make them real pe"onalitie> a~d let them react like reai people
would read to the real world Jack K~rby dr~w 11 '<td mnlnbuted many
ideas, too, of course, and it redlly >ucceeded far beyond anybody's
e"pectaticns
I aiways thought that was the way wmics should be done_ Ar.d then
WG came out with- I forget the order of til em I til<nk ~~~ ~e>:t was the
Hulk, then Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, T!Jor, D,1redev1/, Iron Man, S/1.
Fury, lhe Avengers, lhe X-Mcn_ ltwa> iike I was on a roiL I wuldn'tdo
anyth1ng wrong. I don't ~now that the ideas werP <o good. I thtnk 1t
was more tile style. I thnk the readtrs relaled lo that style of writirg
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~nd >lorytellmg. I thlrk we could've b~en doing il~ythrng_ It wui<J've

befn '>uperman, Batman, ond the F'ash, but rf we were dorrg them in
our new ~lyle, thc,y would'w been brg h•ts
Pitts: When you >ay sl yl~, arc you IJikmg about tlw actu~l rnechww > ni
the wntrns?
lee: The rnechantcl of the wnting is all pr<:tty muc_h the ;arne. the style
bcrng, try ng to huma.ni<'' the charade« as much ,\\ possrble The brg
formula, rf you want to ~hink of it as a formula, wa' JL>\t seyrng to
.,-,y,elf, suppme ~real. flfsh arl<l blood human had th"' one! 'uch a
super power" What would h'; itfe bc- like anywdy7 What wowld happ~n
lo hrm ir, the rral world.
Lrkc iron Man. okay, oo he's got thi> •.urt of ~rmor ond he can 'ly and
he\ ve<y ;trong-, tut won'i he <trli have to worry about unron trouole at
h" factor(! And won't he still hav~ to worry about women probl~ms,
g;ris who are runnmg after hrrn and sn for< h. and tris weak heart <md 'iii
the prob!em he has?
MayCJe what I'm oay"ng i<: I !ned to concentrate rnare un tile charac-
ter>' IWrsonal 'ives, and not JUS! make the slory a case of hero s~es a
crime he1ng committed, hero goes alter the cnminal, hero frghts him
and catch~s him"' the end, whrch had Fretty much been the formula
up till then.
Pitts: Would you say,"' a nr,tsh~ll, that the key to the early success of
your work was that it gave more re<pect to the rfaders' rntelled?
Lee: Oh, ab>olut~ly, because suddfn)y we found we were getting older
readers Older rfadec~ who had never read comic> beiore werG pi~king
them lip and enjoying them and were stayrng with u>. There were a lot
of other thrngs. We were trying to get more story content aho. We us~d
contrnued \!.ones. which gave us more mom_ Instead of telling a whole
epic in twenty ()ages, we had a hundred pages, because the stories went
on, .ssue aflec issue. We could gel mare subplots, we could get more
plot development, more c.harader del;neation. we could flesh the ;tories
out and make them like little rnotion p•dures. Even the vocabulary: we
would use whatever words were ~ecesse.ry for a situatron We didn't soy
to ourselves, "This word wrtl be too dtffwlt tor the young kid.< "
We tri~d to have the peopie taik like real people We tried to wnte
the stones as 1hough we were screen write,-,, writing screenplays or tfl~
vision shows_ The whole idea was to rnak~ the stories os adult a; possi·
ble and still keep them enjoyable and untierstandahle for young kicls.
JA613
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Pitts: If I hi!d wslked 1nto tr" Marvel offi<W· ~~ th"t point !her~ rn the
•;,xlrf>. what wnuld I h.:we found?
Lw: I thmk you'd have tound a smoll group of guy1 workrng lrkr nazy,
hams1ed and heui<.-btJ IHppy, enrnyrng what they were doing and
very ~KCrlht 4boul what we were dorng. it was something new We
ifl'ere creating new characters, a new mythology, a~d thf pr;blit wa>
rpa<Jrng favorably to hem
\Ne Hi r,,lher proud of wh~t we were domg_ We ever. started put-
ting c1edrts rn the books, whch had never reolly befn done 1n comics
before_ I started wntrng a co!umn, "Scan'\ Soapb<>x," and made up this
"Bullpen Bulletrns" page We tn~d to brrng the readers into ihe whole
Marvf'l world wrth us 10 thPy weren't tu>t iM>. They were fnends_ 1 tned
to \alk to the reader; as rll was srlting nght with them and thFy Wfre
<h.lnng the excfkmcnt wrth me Tried to k~ep everything miorma! and
'ncndly ar.d ~xcrting
Pitts: You dlso seemed to enjoy creating. for want ot a b"tter phrd\e,
a bunker mentalrty in wh•ch here was little tiny Morve! litkrng potshots at
t~rs huge grant, DC It was the underdog >yndrome,
Lee: rhat was the ca>e- We were definitely the underdogs DC was the
gianlrn the f1eld when it lame to ;uper~eroes. They had I don't know
how mar.y 'uperhero IItie>. We only had the fantastic Four wh~n we
started, but we kept adding. DC was owned by Wamer Brothers and
thvy were b•g and weaithy_ We were the i<ttle outfrt. a~d we were very
exerted about the Iact that we WNe $uddenly starting to compete with
DC and p~oplf' WNe noticing us. It wa5 a great !eeiing_
Pitts: In r~bbing shoulders w;th your fellow pmfes>ronals, drd you gel
the feeling they saw you guys at Marvel a~ a contender?
Lee' I never <eally thought of rt that way. I was In ends with mo<l of the
staff at DC and when we got together, we just kidded around and
li<lked. I didn't think oi it in those terms.
Pitts: let's puc it this way: was there an event or a time when you sud·
denly real,zed !Mt Marvel would, i\5 you liked to put it back then, take
over the world?
Lee: I don"t know when that time was, but I began to get a sense of that
as t1me went on. I cou.d tell by the fan rnaJI. I could tell by the reception
I got when I went to comic book conventions I would be there with
members of the DC staff and ali the questions were drreded at me from
CONFIOENTIAL MARVEL0017524
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llw fan< rr the audrenre. All the rnlerest seemed to be for Marvel. And
!rtre by lrtrle, yeah . . you'd have to be blind not to reulrze that Marvel
"''lS whtre tlw exqtement wal ;n tho-;e days. I'd like to thrnk 1! >I IIIII
Pitts: Yot! got a Idler unce from a woman who tranked you for
hdp:ng her 10 raiw her son so well. I'm sure lh~t'l r.ot:he only letter
of that type you've received. How doe\ 1! feel to hav€ helped r<use a
g~nerat,on ot k•ds7
Lee: Very good. Wonderiul. Yuw're right l'w gotten many Hters !ike
that ~nd I tre~<ured them and I cannot tell you how gratified lfwy
made me feel, how warm they made m~ kci You know, when you're il
wnkr, you srt at a typewnter alone ard yow·re batting out a lot of
word-; ond you have no idea rf any body's ruding them or !I Jnybody
cares_ I guess everybody likes lo feel t~at what hf does has some
mear-ing to somebody
! u<ed to Irk en 1! ~o ,, drsc jockey who ha\ a late-night'lhow 1omewhere
and he 1il1 in a little room by him>elttalking 1nto a microphone. He kind
of hope; wmellody. somewhffe il l!>lening, but how do~s he ever know!
And suddenly, you start getting !hi> ma1l, all this feedback. I got Idle,-,
from kids who said, "Slall, I'm having a Har Mitzvah. i'd low it if you'd
wme_ My father 'ays he'll pay your fJJe." I got a Iotter from a krd 'ay•ng,
"I had to deliver a valedidonan <l.ddress. I just graduated and for the
subjfd of my addre;s, i used a speech you had Lhe Silver Surfer make 1n
issue i' so and so" _ or, "My mGther <ard, how come my Englrsh grades
are 1m proving so and I told her I'd be€n rendrng Marvel Comics and she
(lidn't believe me." Sure, rt was wonderful <ecervr~g mail :ike that
Pitts: I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that lrnterv1ewed Kirby ior this
book and frankly, I didn't know what I was letting rr-yself in for. He's a
very b<tter man. Very angry. There wNe a lot of thrnb'S he said about you
that I would like you to have the opportunity to respond to, rf yotfle of
o mind to_
Lee: Okay.
Pit\5: Let's start with the picture he paints of his contribution to Marvel
As he put it, "I saved Marvel's ass" He says when he walked m lor h11
frrst meet1ng with you, you had your h€ad dow~ on th€ desk crying
because Marvel was to be closed. You wer€ in dcsparr, an emotional
wreck, and he came and told 'you, "Loo~. we can do th1s, we car do
that. and we ~on revolutronrze com1cs."
CONFIDENTIAL MARVELOD17525
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Lee: Well, that's his rcmcmbronce I don'l think there's ever oeen ,1 time
when I've had my head on the de;k crymg. You're mee\lng me now,
I don'tth1r.k I come aero" as ar. emotional wretk. I really don't know
whax he\ ~llud1ng to at ali
Pitts: Alw, he Idyl every character lhdt\ nediled a> a Stan Lee ch,>roder
"a Jack Kirby ci1aracrer, 1ncluding Sp1der-Man, wh.ch he >ays he passed
to you and you paswd to Ditko.
LEl": (SIGH) Jack has h" own perception of these thing>, and I think t
undeflbnd the way he ted<- It'' r<:,1ily :1 semantic diffcrcnm of opiflion,
beca~;e 1! depends what you m~on by "creallng" sonnthing_ For exam-
ple, the first book we did was Fanb.,-l!c four I camf up w1!h the idea of
the f anta>tiC Fow I wrote it down_ I still have lht' outline I wrote--the
whole 'de.1 for the story And I <'<>lied Jack and I sJid. "I'd Hkc you to
draw thi,. H~<e's trc outl1ne. these are the charadcrs I want," and 10
forth. Jack then tonk 1t and drew 11. Now, Jack did ere at~ the tharadcr;
in the <emc 'h~t he drew them_ I d;dn't draw them I wrote them_ He
nNt<~d the woy they look.
JJCk ,,l,o cudnbuted quite ~lot as the series went en in ideas,
in plot. Jack is wonderful 1t story. He's very 1ma1,~native He'$ the
most talented guy m the business as far as I'm (Oncemed, as bras
·magi nation goes He contributed a great dNL We worked"' partners,
but the creation of the characters, it seems to me ... li>:e w1th the Hulk:
I sa1d t<J hm <Jne day, "1 want to do a hero who will be a mon>ter_ I th1nk
that would be great I want to get a wmbir.allon of the Hankenstein
mon,ter and Jekylt and Hyde. I'd like you to draw it, Jack. ond this i> what
i'd l1ke 11 to be_" And then we would discuss it, ond I'm sure Jack
contnbuted a few ideas. too. But 1! se~_m 1 to be that the person wl1 o
says, -'I have this idea for a character," that's the person who created Jl.
I could've given it to ~nybody to draw. Jack was the best I gave them
to Jack
I have never tned lo deny Jack's gr~at contribution 1n all of these, but
for him to say he createD them all _ He's not the one who came to me
and said, ''Let'> do the FJntastrc Four or let's do the 1-iu/k_ I came to hirn
and said it_ I said, "I war1t to do a god. Let's do the god of thunder---
Thor_ Nobody has ever done Nors~ mythology b~forF. They've done
Romon gods and Greek gods. I want to play with Norse mythology, and
I ttJink the idea of 'I hor would be very dramatic." So, if that doesn't give
me the nght to >ay I created it, I don't know what does.
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As f<1r a\ Spider-Man'S concerned, I wme up wrth the idea of Spider-

Man_ I wanted a chardctcr who cou!d crawl un waiL. The rw-.le "Sprder-
1/l~n" was rr,ne. I r,;IIHJ Jack ard I <.1Hj, "Jack, I'd lrkc you bJdraw thrs
drfferently tl1<1n you draw your other chJ<octers," bewuse Jack drew
characters vey hcroicarly_ fh,cy were all big and nob:e klokrng. I >ord,
-'I'd like you to nMke '>pF<Irr-M~n kind of an average g~y. Alrrost nerdy.
He\ g1.y who wedrs gia"es, he's r.ot strong, he'> boo~worm, he's not
th,tt popular with girls_
Jack c~me hack o litHe whrle iatQr and brought me two or three
~ttge; drtd I IO<Jkt•d ollhem dn<llhey w~re nicc·ly drawn, but it wasn't
wh.;;i I wanted. The chdfader looked rnore lik~ Captain Amroica than the
way I warted Spider-Man to look I sard, "let\ focgelrt, Jadtko Now, how !dck can say Ce created it,
I don't know. <here\ only one th1ng. and I don't know, my memory
;Sn't th,Jt good: Jack, when he gave me the [}ages, he had prob.;;bly
dr,>Wn a pidure of Spider-Man Ditko m~y have taken Kirby's co'tume
and when he drd t~e <tnp, he may have drawn the costume Jack had
done I do not know for a lad wnether Dotko made up hrs own costume
or took Jar;k\. II J<1ck With\> to say he created \he Sprder-1/lan costum~.
he may have. I don't know. If he want> to say he created thF Thor cos-
tume, the Fantastic Four o:dumcs, whatever else he did, fine. But I don't
think that's tile same as sdyin.<:, "I c<eatcd this book or this concept or
this idea ,.
Pitts: Jack daims that he did the writmg you got all the credrt for, and he
also said he left MaJVel thdt first time because he felt he was creat,ng in
you the krnd of character he didn't want to create Can you tell me what
he's talking about?
lee: No, i really don't know what he's ta.king about. But I don't
know much of what Jack is talking about these days. I mean. when
I listen to these things he says, I just feel I'm listening to the mouthings
of d very bitter man who I feel quite sorry for_ I don't know what his
problem rs, really.
As far os him doing the >!aries, Jack n5ver felt that the script itself_
the dialogue I wrote, was part of the story Very often, Jack would make
up the plots. We would dr<.cus; a story before it was done, and I'd say,
"Let's bring Dr Doom back Let's let him capture Reed Richards or do
this and that'' Jack would say okay. and I left most of the details to Jack.
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LWNARD 1'110, Ji>. / '1981 'H
it's (iUill' trtw, ala: of the otonc'- -the plot~i~g oflhem-- ~e created_
I would r;rve him a couple ot wnrds and he did the r~st I've never t~ken
\h,ll ,,way I rom h,m_ He WitS wonderful at jhal.
Then he would br.ng me the drawmgs. I would P-'t i~ ali the diulogue
and alllhe caotions_ I have a feeling that Jack comiders th~t relalrvely
unm:portanL You know. "Anybody can put lhf draJt,gue rn." I would
lrke to feel thii\ lhe style I gave the storie> by putting the dralogue ir was
gurtc :mportant_ Ailor ail, he manner of speech 11 rmliy what g1ves the
d"""-"h'" \heir pNIODilHy. AI J mailer oi fod, wiwn Jack left Murve!,
h1s >lone\ newr read ~he \Jrne again, I he ones he did w.thout me. They
may bve been better or worse, but they were novN the same fhe ;to-
ne> I wrote wrth J2ck had a certain <tyl~. dnd I th<nk they He gr~Miy
''''f"m-;rhl~ for Marvel\ >UCCess. I thrnk rt" a shame that Jac~ didn't stay
w<lh us I lhrc1k he and I could've sd done great things together. I have
Jbsolutely no idea why he is w bittcf_
Pitts: Let 'I nmve on to happler ground and talk a litt'c more rn-dcpth
abou; the ere all on ot oomc of your Dettcr-known characters We ran go
back to the i'F and, rf you would, talk about the creatron of rhe indrvrd-
ual characters a> opposed lo the turn
Lee: Well, wilh the fantaS!rc rour, I knew we wanted to create a team
So the next problem was to figure out who should comprise the team_
I figured we haw to have one leader And lor a name, I thought he
would mode<tly cdll hrmoelf Mr. Fantastic. I got a kic\ out of that.
I f1gur~d I'd make him the world's greatest scientrst, Jut unlike ,orne
ot~er books, because he :sa great me nbs!. I tried to wrrte him as
though he was ju>l: a little bit stuffy-without too much of a sense of

hum of, even though he's a hero. He's alway\ ponllflcot1ng and Fxpl~~n
ing things to give the other characters, like the Thing and the Torch a
char.ce lo >ay, "Boy, he'll never use a word of two sylfatrles when a fifty-
syllable word wrll do,., and he krnd ot bores the othe<s with his long-
wmded expianatrons_
Then I decided trat it wou!d be fu~ to have a he rome who 'I nOlJU't
the "girl," but who's actually engaged to hrm. So, we started off the
series with Sue Siorm. who was his fiancee. rhcn, tor the obligatory
reenagw, I figured, ·'Why not l€1 h<m be Sue Storm's youngfr brother so
he could bf the hero's brother"ln·law afte' he married Sue. Because, in
superhero comics or in any comics prior to this, you never had in-laws or
relatives They we<e aiways perfect1trangers.
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94 STAN lLl: CONVfOIA~IQNS
I ~ecd~d a fourth guy and I figured h•s power would be the

power ot strength i''JC always Irked the rnjedron of tragedy, .1n<ll
'igured, what it he'; not only mcredibiy powerful, but the t~ing that
r;rvcs hrm his power also turm him into a semr-monster. To keep •I
;rrrpie and offb€o!, I decided to call hiP1 the Thrng. fhe une !bat was
tohlly wnar-gmal, of course, was the Human rmch, belausc we'd had a
c.harader lrke Ihe forch many YNII ago. I thought we'd grve Johnny
Storm, the kid brother of Sue, the ~ame po.ver but we'd ch;mge hrm by
m"krng hrm a teenager. Th~ onginal Tordi was an "-ndrord as I rernern-
bet At>d ·11>0, 1 attempted to grvc him a personal:ty tho! would be
~n-que to Joh~ny Storm.
Tile one lhrng I always tried to concentrate o~ was the dialogue

Hw way they talked. lined to have Johnny talk differertly than the
other\-rnorc the way a youngster would. And I tried lo have Ben ia<k
lrke a real tough, >urly, angry guy. but yet the r~ader had to know he
had a heart of gold underneath. Ben, of course, was the only onF who
couldn't become normol at wrll the way th~ other three could Soh~ wa1
always bitter about that.
I knew w•thout any doubt that Ben, the Thing, would be the most
popular character, and he was. He was the rnost unrquc_ People cllwo_ys
l1(e character; who seem very powerful but yet, you know they are very
gentle underneath and you know they would help you if you needed rt.
It'> almost like having your own genie on your shoulder.
Pitt<: With Dr. D(}(lnl, you created the runaway most popular vrllain rn
com res illld ea>rly the most complex. How?
Lee' There agam, I wan led to make him a screntisl: also, because I fElt he
had to be able to compete with Reed Richards. I thought it would bP fun
it they had been dassmams rn ;chool together. The one q uaiily I tried to
grve him was a qualrty oi . __ well, he's regal He's not just the average
villain who wants to commit crimes and <rake money. Doom has all the
morey he ne~ds_ What he wants is to take over the world-to run the
world, Ar.d I tried to write rt as though maybe Doom muld_ Maybe he
could do a better JOb tha~ is berng done now_ He might be thought of as
a benevolent despot.
In fact, in later <lories and in my newspaper comic strip when i've
featured h rn. I've had him saying things lrke, "I may rule with an rron
hand. but there's no en me in Latveria" -wl"ch is his country- "there's
no poverty and no unemployment and there aren't many prisoners in
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iJJ -, Of course. that was because h~ hdd mo>t of them >ilence<:i_ I al<;o
tnt'd to g•ve him 4 >1rong sen>e of honor. I seern to remember I W'Ole
;ome >lorie> where Doom would "'Y· ''If you do thu1 d~d \W(h, i'll 'ct
you tree" Sue would '.ay, "How can we :ru1t h•m'l" t\nd Reed wou!d
o~y. "Dr. Doom, for all hts faulll, has hiS own code of honor" In h~< way,
he''"" the mo>t noble of all the bad men_ I loved '.he rdea of him bcrng
a krng. the idea h~ could come to Am~nco ~nd b1· 1<'11~ from arrest
brc.\11\f he h.1d drplomatK rmmun1ty.
I drrln't want him to be that hateful I thou~;ht rt wouid be fun to
havt· a vribin you could kind ot rciatc to, ;~ a way I thrnk one of rny
bvorite otones was whrcn Reed tough! DL I loom Mtd Doom won_
At the rr.d of th~ <tory, De om W~\ wry hdppy because he'd +inally
defeal~d lh~ Fanla\Lc Four, bulrt turned out that Reed had hypno\r;:ed
hrrn or ;ornethrng Doom hadn't rc-al!y won, but Reed felt thars the one
'"'"-Y :o get him oft hrs back forever It he \htnks he's won, he'il never
both~r them agarn.
Pllts: Ol<ay . , Galact:Js.

Lee: He was" <emi-god lie, uh _ I never was too sure exactly
what he was_ Or how big he was Jack drew hrrn dt!ferent heights
many time1 He was very much the >arne d' Dr Doom, except more so.
I rrmember I would have Galadu' >ay. "I don't want to hurt anyboUy,
I don'\ w<tnl to kill a~ybody, but I must survive It doesn't bother you
human; rf you step o~ a anth•il and kill thou1ands of Jnts. You don'!
particularly want to kill them. but you can't help waik:ing along. That's
the way it is with me. i don't wont to harm anybody, but GaJactus
mu1t survive_"
Pitts: The Huik

Lee: With Oh~ Hulk. I JUSt wanted to create a lovable monster-almost
ltke lhe Thrr1g, but more so. I had always loved Dr Jdyll and Mr. Hyde,
and I hod alway> loved the Frankc~stcin monster_ I always lell the
Frankenstein momter was really the good guy_ I'm talking aboullhe
movie, not Mary Shelley's story. In the movte, Franken>tetn's monster
drdn't really want to hurt dnybody. He JUSt wanted to be left alone, ard
everybody was houndrng him and hunting him tho<e idrot poltcemen
always chasing hrm w•th thmc torches
I figured, why don't we trfate a monster whom the who!e human
'ace ro ~I ways trJing to hunt and destroy, but he's really a good guy.
Then, :o give it an e'tra degree of interest, I figured :nstead of just a
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monsl(•r, we'll borrow o mncept from Jek)'il und Hyde ~~d let-t be a
man who lurns into a mon1tcr urw1llingly, who mu5t 'pend h> life "yrng
lo lUre himself of tllis rather r,n1que ahction.
Pitts: The X-Men_

Lee: I hey were onginally (a,l!~d the Mutants, hut my piJ,:iorer ;1t the
lime thought that the readers wou:dn'l know what d ,-,utant was, ;o I
chanv,ed 1t to the X Men We're alway' lookmg for 1ew superhfmes--~
not so much for new heme> as for new explanations of how they came
'!bout, and I w~s gcttmg \lied of nd1oact1ve -.t<Cidcnts. I felt, why not get
sorne people whto were born HlP way they are, who had rnutant power\
So we cr~ated the X- Men.
Pills: Sp,der Man

Lee: 1 r0merPber, when I wa> "-kid, l€n years old, there wa\ a pulp ~'ag
azine died rhc 5pJ!ier-MaStf'r of tv1en. And I always thought that title
wos 'o dramallc_ lie wa1 nothrng l1ke Spider-Man, he WiJ5 just a d~tec
llVe who wNe a musk, Jnd he wfnt arocncl punch1ng people_ He wore a
rrng with a >p1der Ensign"'- so when he punched 1orncbody" would !eave
a little mark of a ;pider on the person ! tgured, ··c:;eo, why not call rny
guy Spider-Man?"
Pitts: Although Spider-Man is arguably the ~lost popuiJr single super-

hero in comiC<, legend r,as it that your publr<her, Marlrn Goodman, took
"lo; of conv1ncmg when you wanted to try the ~hamcter owL
Lee: He said it was the wo"l1dea he ever heard. He said peupl~ hnte
>plders, <>nd it sounded too much l•ke Superman_ Tiw 1dea of someone
sticking to a wall and >tuff, he called it grotesque
Pitts: When you finai!y talked Goodman Into doing SpidedVIan, the
alter-ego you created lor the character was almost the prototypical
milquctoast nerd-at lea;t 1n hiS earliest incarnation. Where did you get
your ideas for the cha,adm of Peter Parker?
Lee: More from •nyself than anybody. In the group, I was olways the
youngest kid, and I was aJways the th1nnest kid. And, while I was a
good alh ete-1 always P'aycd with tCe olher kids, I played oaseb,J.II,
hockey, handball, and everything-because I was tne youngest and
the thinnest. I was never the captain or the leader Jnd I was always
the one getting pu<,fled around. And I figured, kids would relate to a
concept like that. After all, most k1ds have had s1mila' expenences.
Turns out I was right
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Pitts: Speak1ng of Sp1dedltan characters, Jonah Jarreso~ hJs to be one

ni the mmt 1nsp1red >upporting pi,1ycrs 111 co1mc,_
Lee; I gufS\ he\ my fJvonl~. I don't reJIIy know whN~ I got hnn _
m.1yb~ a wmbna:,on of everybody I've ever known. The only thing th"t
has alw~ys bothemd me aboutJonah-you can believe 1t or not-! came

up w<th ih;- 'dPa of th€ ira\Cible pubhher, and Spid~y i:lt'ing a lreelonce
photographer; I roved 1t. and weeks later, i said, "My God! Superman
'Nmk\ for an c-ditm, Pcr;y White I" 1 >aid, "Oh, how d,d I get so ciose?" So,
I knockHl mys~if nut t() m,lke JonJh J,1me1on a.s different a\ po;srbie.
He\ much rnnre na;<_rble, hr's very react1ona<y, he \hough; the last
good lime; we had in America were whm Herbert Hoover was presi"
dent, he hates wena~~rs. he hat~d hippies, he hated long hair, ne hated
gurb.rs I llwught it would be l<tnny '0 g~l a guy l1ke th~t and 1how hf
sn't really~ villarrr He-> <I()(" bad guy. He J~'l repre<,e~t\ that segment
ot soe~ety that" very arch con;ervabve.
Prlls: Th~ ~1lver ~urfer.

Lee: ~i:ver ~urler reolly wao UN ted by Jack Krtby. A'ter we had dec1ded
\o do Gatactus in a sto')', wh~n Jan brought the arleJork in, I saw there
was some funny guy on u flying surfboard_ I sa1d, ''Who's th1s?" Jack
<,aid, "I figure anybody as important as Gal actus ought to have a
herald who fl1es ~heJd of him ond finds planets for him." I !oved the
1dea. I do~'t remfrnher who made up \he n,'\mf th~ $river Surfer---
whether rt wa; Jack or me, but I loved the rdea, and the draw,ngs were
<o beautiful, he looked so great that I figured I wouid try to have h1m
taik d1ffere~tly than any other character-get a quasi-Shakc>peareani
brblical delivery for him.
Pitts: There was ,;omething almost Chnst·like about the Surfer_ Was that
1n Jack's origihai conception?
Lee: No. That Wcll the q"al1f)' that I gave to h1m As he was ongrnaliy
drawn, he was just a powerful guy on a flying surfboard.
Pitts: I remember reading 1n one of your old wlumrs where you said the
Surfer was being quote<.:! 1n pulp1ts across the country. How drd that
affect you? Is there a special place in yo"r heart for hirn>
L"": Absolutely You know, I used to lecture a lot at colleges and
very often during the que.<tion and answer pPnod, the kids i~ the
aud1ence would say, "Tell us about the Surfer and how he relates to lhe
Judeo-Chnstia11 concept of religion Did you have Jesus Christ in mind?"
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Th~y would !li\OIIS v;;_rious quotatio~s {ron\ the Surfer Somehow or

other. we >Cern t<l h~ve strud< a nNve there People \fem to renlly care
~bout the >uofer
Pitts: Well, did you h~ve Jesus Christ in 'lllnd?

Lee: Maybe SL,bcon\CEous!y, i wa> trying lo 'flake the Surfer a p,1re .nnoc0nt
whu '' lrylnf( to help people ;tnd (s be1np; m >@d~,-,;tood and pc,cculed
fer the very th1rgs he is by1ng to do, which arc tobily good 4nd unselfish_
Pitts: I've he2crd 1t rumorN:l that you passed down lhe edict at MMvc!
that no one will wrik ,1 Surfer \erie> ~xcept you.
Lee: I did, and then when I left Mdrvel phy<irally to move out to the
(\Ne<;t) Cnast, alter a f~w years there Wd> "'"h a clamor lor the Surfer
!hut they're hnally putl111g out <ome new books, whi(h ar€ being wntien
by >omeone else. I mu>l s~y I'm sttil unhappy about tl. but I didn't feel
I <lwul<i make a big fuss about ;t. I can't nlli<t that ~obody ebe wntes ;t
tf the WNid wants mme Surters and I don't IMve t"ne to do 1!. But I was
dlways drctd th<ll wh<1ev~r wrote •t wouldn't wnle hm' the correct w~y.
because I don't want hrm tre~led too much iike a ~ocrnol ;upnhcro.
Another fear I have" .. >ornetime\ a wntN can try to wpy your stylr,
too much and it comes across a; bemg too corny
Pitts: Daredevil
Lee: rlwre again, w0 were try•ng for something different, and I figured,
why not a b;ind 1uperhero? tv~1ybody thought 1t was a crazy 1dca, bul1l
really wor<ed. He's one of mmt popular characters today
Pitts: Finally, your most recent creatron and, in many ways. the most
controverSial. lhe She·Hwlk.
lee: Originally, we thought we might be able to sell another verst on of
the Hulk as an animated cartoon, so I was asked to create such a charac-
ter, and write a good story lor it. Someone came up w1th the name
"5he-Hull(' Jnd I thought "Why not?" So I did it But I only c,-.,ated the
character and wrole that lrrst 1ssue I didn·: have time for any more
Personally, left to my;eli, I wouldn't have done the She--Hulk Even
though <he'; a good character_ . it smacked to me too much of
Superman and Superboy and s~perdog &nd Supersneaktrs and on and
on. I felt one Hulk was all the world really n~eded.
Pitts: It's heen quite a few years s1nce you were actively writing. Have
there been any verstons ot your charudcrs Since then Ihat you fe!t were
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LWNAF<fJ l'lrl\, JR. f 1981 (J'J
rediiy r·xn,lleM-- -tn,,t Cdplurcd the 1prrit of what you did and then added
'omething extru to •t7
Lee: Oh, surr. It\ fwd to r~member exatnpl~s I don'< r~ally have brne
w r~ad the books now, bull would read them J. 'ew year; ago or at
h1st !oak through a tew of them. and every so otten I'd see a >tory tho\
wor;lr! make ""' say, "G~~, Hut's really terrific" Th~re wao one 5prder-
Mdn ;lory about a Kid who was dyrng and Sprder Man came and-
l'ltls: lhe K1d Who ( oiiNted <.,'pidN-~I.an
Lee: rhat\ r\. It was "lovely little story I thought rt was ;ust great I had
;een ,1 few Daredev!ll that I thought w~re good, I saw some Fanla5IJC
rour< that lf,ked_
Pitts: I el\ turn il arcund. H,lve there beer any ver"om oi your charac-
te" that you've been cspeca!ly unhappy with' I remember you saying
~hat you we'~ unhappy wrth the ()wen Stacy done s'ory and the whole
dealM of Gwen Stil:ty in Spider-Man.
Lee: Well, the done, I :hrnk, was rny <uggfstkm originally. I was 'o
unhappy she was dead I was trying to thr~k of a way to bnng her back
witf:out da1mmg 'thad been an ;mag-,nary story or >Om~thrng_ Didn't
1eem to work, though, but I never would have krllf'd Gwen Stacy'" the
fir<;t pl~ce. Whfrt i g~ve up the strip, he \Gerry Conway) sard, "How
should t write ;t?" I sad, ·'You're the wnter now. do whatever you want."
I don't feel rt's right to try to cont. ol something if I'm not there anymore_
I had to go to Europe for a while When I came back, I found out she
had been krlled. liard, Sheeesh! I dtdn't mean k•ll oft all my thar~ders.
But rt wo5 done. It wdl irrevocable.
Pitts: Any other examples like that, where something happened with
one of your character< that really rnc~nsed you?
Lee: Well, lhere've been a lot of changes m the books sin~e i left. I can't
say I've been incensed_ I'm confident that Jim Shooter and his staff know
what they're doing. Jim's one of the most innovative talents in comics
You ca.n't keep things tre same all :he time There are perhaps more
changes than I would have made, because I hke thrngs that are a lrtlle bit
more constant and dependable. I would have preferred rt if the stones
and the plots changed a lot but if the characters remained more con-
stant. And yet a lot of the thtngs that have befn done at Marvel have
been very exciting and very rtimuiating and provocatlve, :rke the Iron
Mall <enes where Tony Stark becomes an alcoholic A lot of people have
JA624
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17 of 17
~alkcd about .t, been rmer~Slt'rl in rt. e<tred about 1\ I think il-s grtdl thdt
wnter1 are u'ing therr ow~ rnHgtnatrons and going wlwrever \he~< own
taste; ifad lhc•rn
I thrnk, by dnd large, the book' a~d the change; are pr,,tty gooo
Pith;; Kirby rn"d" an rntcrestrng obscrvalron lhJt cornrc< are bewmong a

little too Sf'amy and gtc.ph,c Would you go ~long •~ith lht, tho.llhue
are too many l,b,rtios being taken7
Lee: Well, I thrnk lhf•re's an effort made to make thecn mace odult ad
mor~ '"Ph stKMed. /\nd of course, \he wcrld h" changed a lot ;in('e
i was wtrtng com.cs. We're living rn a d•fferent trMc now_ I would not,
perhaps, have thc, >tones qurt~ as cough as somre of them are. For rPY
own tastes, they'rf a little too f~rthy, llhi·,k But I don't Xnow that it's
rcaily wror· g 1: may be that tb\'s what we've carne to now in our soc-
ely. M~ybe they're the nght kind of ~tones for lhr< penod of time_
Pitts: Why d<d you stop wntrng in the frr<t place?

L~e: (PAUSE) I'm not >ure. ! thtnk 1 probr,bly JUst got too bu>y wrlh my
publlshrng dulres. l may also have felt that rt was tirl'e to <tep aside and
hy my hand at other ;hings. Now my work rn f,lm keeps me fully occu-
pied. Surf, l g~ess I ;om~tmes mrss comkbook writing, but I >t1ll do the
Spider Mdll newspaper ;trip and I also do an occac;icmal comicbook for
Marvel whe~ever my longtime fr.end, Jim Galton, Marvr.l's presrdent,
rnay reque;t me to wnte sorne >pfdal "sue. Jim's one or the greatest
guy' I know and I'd never turn h'm down_
Pitts: What are your cunent duties?

Lee: Rrgnt now I'm putting together a number of matron prcture projects,
l:>oth hve ac!Jon ami animaied, as well as d~veloping some prime-time TV
series_ I've made my headquruter> at Marvel's new ar1imated studro here
:n Van Nuys, California, where I'm in charge of the creatron and develop·
me~t of new projects. I work with the creative staff. as well as wrch
lovely Macgaret Loesch, the brilliant pres!d~nt of Marvel Producttons
Y'know, I sometimDs get 1he strangesc feeling of de;it vu It's as
though I'm once agarn reliving those exerting days of the early sixties
when we were buildrng Marvel Camrcs Suddenly I'm back tn harness
again, ha'ling the time of my Iii~. workrng wtth clever. talented artrst<
and writers, creatrng characters and concepti at a vital, fast-growing stu-
dro, deve oping movre and TV projects, &nd keeping busier than ever
doing alllhe things I love.
CONFIDENTIAL
MARVEL0017535
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EXHIBIT 25
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MARVEL ENTERPRisES, INC.

685 THIRD AVENUE
NEWYORK,NEWYORKI0017
As ofNovcm.ber 1, 1998
Mr. Stan Lee
9143 Oriole Way
Los Angeles, California 90068
Re: Employmem 1\greemeot
Dear Stan:
Confirming the various discussions between your attorney Arthur Lieberman ;md Tuck
Hardie ofMarve!, this letter when accepted and agreed to by you constitutes an agreement
between you and Marvel Enterprises, Inc. (''the Company''), the parent company of Marvel
Characters, Inc. (''Marvel"), represented by us to be the swvivor after bankrup1cy of Marvel
Entertainment Group, Inc.
1. You will serve as an employee of Company, or one of its affiliates as may be designated
by the Company, based in Los Angeles for.a term commencing as of the date hereof and
terminating on your death. Notwithstanding such death, the compensation provided for in
Section 4 hereof shall continue until the last to occur of {i) your death (ii) the death of
your present wife, Joan Lee (provided that she is still your wife upon your death) or (W)
five years after the death ofbotb you and Joan Lee, provided that your daughter Joan C.
Lee survives both of you.
2. Your services shall be non-exclusive but your work for Marvel shall be on a preferential
basis. You shall not, however, be required ~o put in more time on Marvel's behalf than
you have averaged in the last two years, wl:Uch shall be approximately 10-15 hours per
week. Any time in excess of that shall be at your option but without additional
compensation. It is agreed that you can engage in and be compensated for any activities
outside those performed for the Company or_ Marvel including activities that are
P0547
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CONFIDENTIAL
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competitive to those of the compai!-y or its affiliates, so long as that competition does not
violate any of the intellectual property or other rights of the Company or Marvel or result
ftom the unauthorized disclosure of the Company's proprietazy or confidential
information, if you are so advised of the proprietary or confidential nature of such
information (at the time of disclosure) in writing. Your services to Marvel will consist of
the following:
{a) Serve generally as a spokesman for MarveL including giving speeches and
interviews and visiting conventions on Marvel's behalf. as Marvel may from time
to time reasonably request;.
(b) Conferring on a regular basis with the creative staff at Marvel's various
operations, guiding and advising the editorial and art personnel and the like in
existirig Marvel characters; and
(c) Work with motion picture and television producers and distributors to stimulate
their licensing of Marvel characters and supervise movie and television projec5 of
Marvel Characters on Marvel's behalf and be named executive producer or co-
executive producer of such productions.
3. You will continue to serve as Publisher ofMarvel Comics and your name and likeness
shall be non exclusively licensed to Marvel in the milllller it has traditionally appeared on
Marvel Comics as more specifically provided for in paragraph 5 below. At your option,
Marvel shall name you as Chairman Emeritus of the movie or television company as
listed in the HoJlywood Creative Directory and/or Publisher or Publisher Emeritus of
· Marvel Comics, a division of the Company.
4. As compensation to you for your life notwithstanding any disability, Joan Lee, your
-2-
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cwrent wife, and Joan C. Lee, your daughter, the Company agrees to provide the
following compensation:
(a) Base Salary
{i) from the date hereof. through October 31, 2000, you are to be paid a base
salary (the ''Base Salary") of$810,000 per year,
(ii) from November 1, 2000 through October 31, 2001 the Base Salary shall
be $850,000;
(iii) from November 1, 2001 through October 31, 2002, the Base Salary shall
be $900,000; aod
(iv) from November 1, 2002 until death the Base Salary shall be $1.0 million
dollars.
All amounts ofBase Salary shall be paid in accordance with customary payroll
policy on a biweekly or semi-monthly basis. You may elect to have aU or any portion of the
Base Salary paid to S.L. Productions or any company you so designate in lieu of making the
payments to you individually.
(b) SurvivorPayments ··
(i) Upon your death., your current wife Joan Lee (provided she is your wife at
the time of your death) shall be entitled to receive, for the balance of her
life, an amount equal to 50% of the Base Salazy in effect on the date of
your death. Such ari:J.ounts to 'be paid in accordance with customary
payroll policy as p~vided in paragraph (a) above.
(ii) Upon your death and Joan Lee's, Joan C. Lee,-your daughter, shall be
entitled to receive, for a period of five years, the sum of $100,000 (payable
-3- '
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in. accordance with customary Marvel payroll practices) provided that Joan
C. Lee does not predecease either you or your wife Joan Lee. ln such
case, no amounts would be due by the Company.
(c) Stock Options
(l)The Company agrees to issue to you, in accordance with the Company's 1995
Stock Option Plan (the ''Plan"), a total of 150,000 options to pun:hase shares of the Company's
common stock. Such options shall be, if possible be within the employee plan and are, granted
as follows: (I) 100,000 options shall be granted at a price equal to the market bid price as of the
date of grant, such grant to be made as promptly as practicable following execution on this
Letter Agreement. but not later than November 20, 1998; (IT) 25,000 options shall be granted not
later than the first anniversary of the execution of this Letter Agreement at a price thee. equal to
the market bid price and (ill) 25,000 options shall be granted at a price then equal to the market
bid price not later than the second anniversary of the execution of this Letter Agreement. each of
the above options to vest in the year of granting and be for five years from date of issuance.
(d) Set-Off
.
If, after November 1, 2002, you personally receive, or any company wholly owned or
wholly controlled by you receives revenm: from competing business activities, then the Company
shall be entitled to set-off from the amounts due as Base Salary hereunder an amount equal to
25% of such competing business revenue (before deduction of expenses and on a pre-tax basis)
to a maximum of$!90,000 in any contract_ year (i.e..• November I, through October 31). You
agree each year after November 1, 2002 to furnish a certified accountant's statement (with
appropriate suppon) to the Company detailing the computation of said S~t-Off. Where the
maximum set-off of $190,000 is being perrnined a simple statement shall be sufficient.
-4-
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(c) Expenscs/FringeBenefits .
(i) Yau are to receive prompt reimbursement for all ordinary and necessary
business expenses incurred by you in connection with your activities on
behalf of the Company upon presentation of appropriate documentation
(included expenses shall be a cell phone) in accordance with Company
policy, except that you shall be permitted your customary style ofbwiness
travel (which shall be first class with limou.siDe and stayin luxury hotels).
(ii) You also continue to have the benefit of a single full-time assistant.
(f) In addition, you shall be paid a participation equal to 10% of the profits derived
during your life by Marvel (including subsidiaries and affiliates) from the profits
of any live action or animation television or movie (including ancillary rights)
productions utilizing Marvel characters. This participation is not to be derived
from the fee charged by Maivel for tb.e licensing of the product or of the
characters for merchandise _or otherwise. Manrel will compute, account and pay
to you your participation due, if any, on account of said profits, for the annual
period ending each March 31 during youf life, on an annual basis within a
reasonable time after the end of eacb'such period.
(g) You will have the right to continue to author the syndicated newspaper comic
strip "Spider Man" and receive the same ex:tra cornpensatioc. therefrom that you
have been receiving, to wit, $125,000 annually pursuant to your agreement with
Marvel. All such comic strips shall ~ontinue to be published as is done in the
current circumstances ..
5. Subject to paragraph 5(f) below, in express consideration for and expressly dependent
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upon the faithful performance of the foregoing obligations of Marvel, you, Stan Lee,
residing at 9143 Oriole Way, Los A.ogeies, California 90069, agree as follows:
(a) Except for your name, likeness and the imegrarion of eilher your name or likeness
with a specific phrase, such as "Stan's Soap Box'', "Stan Lee presenrs", and
except for the term "Excelsior," (as to which Marv"el shall have non-exclusive
rights of use, in accordance with the terms hereof, the "Non-Exclusive Rights''),
you hereby assign. convey and grant (without representations or warranties of any
kind except as set forth herein) to Marvel forever throughout the universe all right,
title and interest solely and exclusively which you may have or coatrol or which
you may have had or controlled in the following: Any and all ideas, names, titles,
characters, symbols, logos, designs, likenesses, visual representations, artwork,
stories, plots, scripts, comic books or c_omic strips, episodes, literary property, and
the conceptual universe rel<3:ted there!o which will or have been in whole or in part
disclosed in writing to, published, merchandised, advertised, and/or licensed by
Mazvel, its affiliates or their predecessors and successors in interest and licensees
(which by agreement inures to Marv"el's benefit) or any of them (the '<property")
and any copyrights, tradem~ks. stat4tOI)' rights, common law, goodwill, moral
rights and any other rights whatsoever in the Property in any and all manner and
media and/or fields, including all rights to renewal or ex:tensions of copyright or
trademarks and to recover for past infringement and make application or institute
suits therefor (the "Rights''). With respect to the Non-Exclusive Rights, the
foregoing rights of Marvel shall extend solely to the uses heretofore utilized by
Marvel; changes thereto may be made with your pennission. Such prior uses may
-6-
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3018 of 14
NOV-19-98 THU-·---
------- 03: II PM ---
--· -.- .......... FAX
........__. NO. .
................
~-·
P. 08
r""= ~:;-
continue in perpetuity.
Specifically el!C!!pted from above, you have represented !.hat you have been
ycr;;civingroya!ties on a munbe:r ofpublicatioru; to Marvel's knowledge directly
fr.:lm third-p:utypublishers. Specifically exccpled from the above is the right
!1ctnizoc.s. You may contiDD= forever in pctpeluityto so awn and exploit the
Femlzaru charactcr(s) far Y.Our own benefit.
Notwilhstanding what is set forth herein. you may, for publicity, advertis.ing,
ublic relation. historic:d and any rebtcd .PUrpose-s~refer to or hold you~,;:If out
founder and/or creator of'wtLiltc"Ycr chamci:~ Uld imag~ )'OU c.resied or founded
on behalf ofMCJIVcl. proviQ.ed such uses do not confuse ov.:nc..""Sh'ip or source of vso.c;al-)
hypothecated, norat:cmpted to do so any or !he Property U1d Rights to anyone

other than Marvel, its affili:~.tes:, predecessors or their designees and will not do so
inthc:fi.l.t~
(c;) .
. - .
.
Subject to a mat~riat bre:~ch of this a.gR:m~t, you ht:reby agree to execute upon
. ··.
rc:que5t .from Mu'r'd any dccllmects it deems reasonably necessary to eff~t the
purpo:~cs of this assignmrnl

.
(d) Subject to a material bre;1ch of this :~.gn:cmc:nt, you will never file with the ti.S.
-7-
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Copyright Office or the U.S. Patent ao.d Trademark Office or any governmental or
public agency throughout the world, and will never assert or assist on your behalf
or cooperate with others in asserting on your behalf or in claiming rights lh.rough
you, any claim to ownership (except to Non-Ex:clwive Rights, subject to Marvel's
license) of the Rights in the Property, or in making any objection to Marvel's
complete and unrestricted right to usc and exploit said Property or Rights
throughout the world i.n any form. manner or medium Marvel may desire now or
hereafter known or devised.
(c) Subject to a marerial breach of this agreement, you agree not to contest either
dirct:tly or i.nclirectly the full and complete ownership by Marvel, its affiliates,
designees, or successors in interest, of all right, title and interest in and to the
Property and Rights or the validity of the Rights, which may be conferred on
Marvel by this Agreement, or to a.ssist otbcn in so doing. Examples of such
prohibited contestation would be, without limitation. applying for copyright,
renewal copyright, trademarks, service marks, patents, etc. for the Property and/or
Rights herein specified or the publication by you or your assigns or agents or
llteraiY property which would infringe upon. violate or be confusingly similar to
such Property and/or Rights.
(f) It is agreed that the failme ~o pay plli'SLlaD.tto Paii!.graphs 4(a)- 4(c) hereoffor
any reason. after notice and a thiny {30) day cure period, shall be a material
breach which shall permit you at your option to vitiate Paragraphs 5(a)- (5(e)
(the Assignment) above and place the parties to the "Assignment" in the condition
that existed between them j,ust prior to the date of execution of this Agreement
-8-
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and notiring contained herein, including ilie existence of the conveyances
contained herein, shall be used as evidence in any subsequent proceeding nor shall
it.prevcnt the parties from taking any position with respect to the ownership of the
Property or the Rights. It is further agreed that. as ro all other breaches of tbis
agreement, you shall be relegated exclusively to a suit for either specific
performance or money damages or botb, if appropriate, at your option.
(g) It is acknowledged and agreed that so long as the Company continues to make the
payments required in paragraphs 4(a)- 4(c) and upon full payment of the
amounts required by Pan~graphs 4(a)- 4(c) none of the heir.;, execUtors, estates,
or other successors-in-interest of any of Stan Lee, Jam Lee, or Joan C. Lee shall
be entitled to make any claim for payments under Paragraphs 4(a)- 4(c} and
neither Joan Lee nor Joan C. Lee shall have the right to contest, challenge or
otherwise dispute the grant of Rights in the Property (or A.ssignmenr) hereunder
or the rights to the Non-Exclusive Rights.
6. This Agreement, including the assignment set forth herein, shall be binding upon the
parties hereto, their affiliates and subsidiaries, legal representatives, successors and
predecessors in interest, and assigns.
7. The invalidity of any provision or pan hereof or obligation hereunder, or the
contravention thereby of any law, rule or regulation of any State, the Federal Government
or any agency, shall not relieve any party from irs obligation under, nor deprive any pany
of the advantages of. any other proVision or part of this Agreemec.l
8. Other Provisions. Tbis Agreement will constirute the entire understanding between the
parties in connection with Stan Lee's relationship with Marvel from the date hereof, shall
supersede any and all previous agreements and may not be amended or modified except
-9-
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11/17/1998 lB:l2 212-<181-BS<IJ PeG:: ll
by :1. writing signed by the party to be charg~. This agreonent will be governed by and
constrUed in accordance with the laws of the StatcofNew York, N.Y. jurisdicticm.. All
notici:S to Marvel .shall be givco. by you at the above add.re:ss and all notices to you shall
be given to you at 9143 Oriole Way, Los Anseles, California 90069, with a copy to
Arthur M. Lieberman at461 Fifth Avenue, New York, New Yolk 10017, or to such
substitute addmss as a party oth£:rvti.sc dc:siptes in writing.
9. Marvel and the Company agr= to submlt this agrm:neot together with appropriate
supporting papers to the court overseeing Marvel's bankruptcy prior to November 25111 ,
1998 and 10 obtain coun'.s approval of this agreement prior to December 5111, 1998.
Should the court fail to act on tbis agr~eo.t, it shall be binding between tht parties.
Should the court disapprove this agreem~t, then pa:ragr:Jpb S(f) sbali control acd place
the parties in the condition that existed between them just prior to the date of c;.:;ccution of
this agreement
I0. The Company agrees to pay your r_easonable legal fees and expenses in connection w.ith
the negotiation of this .:J.gr"ef"D'lent
Signed at [,oc., An ~<\U<rcwfomi~;=bor, !998.
Stom.Lee
Signed at New York, New York this d.:J.y ofNovember, 1998
-10·
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12 of 14
:.:!12-41::1'1-HS43
Ll!:.l::itf.'l~-1 :::: 1-L~
Far good a.ud valuable con:sidcratioa. th"' n::ce:ipt and sufficic:ncy of which I her~by
acl:nowledge, Joan Lee and Joan C. Lee hereby confirm their agreement to the ioregoing insof;rr
as it cnnc:rru tb.eprc;c:ut or future: CoDticgent rights iu the foregoing including. but not limited to
. ::r~-
any rei:LCwa.Is or e~eruions to which they or either of them are emitled after the death of Stan L~e
or Joan Lee.
•
,. Joan C. L~c:
Signed at New York. New York this day orNovember. 1998
~"}iii·
M EL CHARACTERS, [NC.
N;unco )ol, //,Q- /L /Jw:,;f::2J Name::
Titloo \/, ~ P,p..,it:J Title:
STATE OFC'AU.F02/V{I'>.. l
SS.:
COUNTY OFLD'6 P,,,,<::;~C l)
Oo the \ i. ~ay
of November, 1998 , bdorc me pcrsonaHy cnrrte
STAN LEE to me kJJown and knoWD to me to be the individual described in <Uid who executed
tbe fc.-:egoing iDstrument, and acknowl d that he executed the: s:unc.
Ul a~~Y--A. Notai)/P blic
-ll-
'
'....
' ·-..
'•
212 481 0::..13 ?. !2
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13 of 14
11/17/1998 18:12 212-~Bl-65«3
STATE OF {;_,t:)i.A r0f2/.JII4)

ss.,
COUNTYDFWS tTn 'J-t'&$
On th~) Jhid.ay of November. 1998 1 before me personally c:;me
JOAN LEE to me blown :md kniJWil to me to be the individual described in and who ex=cutcd
the foregoing instrument, a.c.d acknowledged that she e:-::ecuted the same.
r~
-
~-- -- ~ .;.,~,, .. ~
l~~
Commltsiooli 11637AT
tlo:ory Public.- Cclilcrnia ~
MIA ';;£,€~n .~~ <-
Notary
j ~-~
--
IClAn!;ele!Co~ly
MrC=-m.E:<DeJ~24.nt
~
a a a a e a a a a
STATEOFCAL./FQ2,u4 )
SS.o
COUNTY OF LO':> /ln,:Jz:'&si
On thJ7f"-1day of November, 1998 1 before me personally came
JOAN C. LEE to me~and~ me to be the individual dcscnbcd in and whc executed
the fon::goiu~ instr:%m,;n; ~d :c~:wl~!ed that she executed the same. .._
l@ eo.n:..c:~:~t:, ff . HI ft k1 (\A A
0
-
~ -.; No:OIY Pu:::r.= _ Cclilornio Notary ublic
l _- los Ancer~, eo-.mry
STATE OF l'iEW YORK a

1a a My CO"TTm. =~ti·e:H~
j"
l a a
:U. 2:rn
a a
-
ss.,
COUNTY OF NEW YORK )
On the ~y.d day ofNovcrnbc:, 1998, before me personally came /.J,/Jt~ H Hv/f/~
. '
to me known, who, being by me du1y .swam, did depose and say that he resides at: {IJ (A,n' /1./f
'
thzl.t he i~ the ofMARVEL HNI'ERPRISES, INC.
the corporation described in and wbich executed the foregoillg instrument; thai ht: kno~ the
seal of said corporation; that the seal affixed to said instrument is such corporate seal; that it was
so affixed by order of the board of directors of said corporation. and that he signed h name
th<>eiO by like OldO<. : ~Mf
OAVID .FII.EN
llalary Public. SUI~ gl N.... tort
lrlo.J0-4!109(]!11
·12- r.--mNa-.wCb.,.,.,...,.,
~n~res0ct.19.l!l..!...l
NOU-17-1998 er.:22 212 481 Q~3 P.13
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l.l/lf/1':::1':::11;1 HI:1Z PAGE 14
STATE OF NEW YORK )

SS.o
COUNTY OF NEW YORK )
On the
,Jday ofNovembcr, 1998, before: me personally eamc
.::>3
to me known, who, belng by me: duly sworn, did depose and say that he rcsidr:s at:
tha! hoi< tho Viu flu,id of MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC ..
the corporation described in and which executed the foregoing instrument~ that he knows the
seal of said corporation; that the seal affixed to said i.nmnmen.t is such corporJ.tc seal; that it was
so affoted by order of the board of directors of said corp::u".ltion, and that be sign~ h name
the.oto by liko o<de<. ...:::J. ~ -?
") ary Public
DAVIO J. ~EMED
NCIIely PuDiic. Sli!IB ol New Yan:
llo. 30-49US091
au.rn_.;,N..... u~a.
Comm~on~lffi:S0~:tl!I.19L 7
-13-
NOI.'-17-1998 137=22 212 481 0543 93% P.14
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EXHIBIT 26
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20th Century Danny Boy: Looking Back With Larry Lieber Page I of30
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2oth Century Danny Boy

Controversial! Fun And Also Games! First Comic Book related blog to be featured in the National
Library's 'Pandora' archive. Even i1 Current Affair' Got In On The Act. Home OJ The Books 'Andru &
Esposito: Partners For Life' and 'Gentleman Jim Mooney'.
MONDAY, AUGUST o6, 2007

Gentleman Jim
Mooney: Buy It
Here Now LARRY UEBER is one of
the more overlooked,
underrated and as such
forgotten men from the
Silver Age of Marvel
comics. For a while there it
appeared L'lat there was
nothing that Larry couldn't
do ~he wrote and he drew,
and he did them both
solidly and more than
competently and remained
at Marvel for many years.
It can be argued that Larry
Lieber wrote more stories
If You Enjoy This Blog
for legendary artist ,!ru;k
Why Not Show Your
Appreciation! Feel Free Kirby other than Stan Lee
To Donate And Support and Joe Simon. As a writer
This Site! Larry scripted the first
~-~~
appearances of both Iron
Man (working with llim
fucl0 and Thor (with Kirby). As an artist he enjoyed a memorable run
on Marvel's western title Rawhide Kid, where he provided both stories
and art.
20th Century Danny Boy @

Often working in the shadow of his more famous older brother, Stan Lee
.------
E
8
EXHIBIT
/.._;~
The National Library of
Australia
(born Stanley Lieber), Larry was often the subject of many (unfair)
nepotism charges, even after Lee had left the company. Larry landed at
Marvel in the late 1950s and remained until 1974, when he was head-
hunted by his uncle, the infamous Martin Goodman, to become a
I t,t. Ot
t/7 /tt
Visit Our Store & Buy A Book
Or Two
writer/artist/editor at the short lived company Al:lM (Seaboard). After
that venture failed Larry returned to Marvel where he saw out the
remainder of his career. A victim of a Jim Shooter purge, Larry has been
http:/I ohdannyboy. b lo gspo t.com/2 007 /08/loo king-back-with-larry -li eber .html 12/9/2010
CONFIDENTIAL MARVELOO 17333
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20th Century Danny Boy: Looking Back With Larry Lieber Page 2 of30
drawing the Spider-Man daily newspaper strip since the late 1980s, and,
· faceboolf. health permitting, he'll be drawing that until he finally puts down the
pen and retires.
Facebook! Visit Us And Join!
DANIEL BEST:
Wbere were you born
and where did you grow
Links Of Interest: up?
Sites We Run, Own LARRY UEBER:
Or Maintain New York City. Born in
Adelaide Comics And Books New York and grew up
Alan Kupperberg in Manhattan but my
Arn1andoGil first years were in the
Brian Postman Bronx. Do you know
Dave Simons
Inkwell Award:; New York at all? I guess
Noon Breyfo&le's Forum not if you're in
Rich Buckler Australia,
Trevor Yon Eeden
DB: Only from what

BUY MEr! I've seen.
LL: Well there are
boroughs in the City.
New York is made up of
Manhattan, The Bronx,
Brooklyn, Queens and
Staten Island. Those are five boroughs and the main one is Manhattan,
which I'm sure you know from the movies. But the Bronx is, I don't know
how to describe it, it was a quiet or a little, almost suburban in a way.
Best Price $10-99
or Buy New $26.99 That's where I grew up. Actually I was only there until I was about ten
[?::.~
and a half and then we moved to Manhattan. Then I grew up in
Manhattan in a place called Washington Heights.
Pnv<::~c Information
My brother, of course you know about my brother right?

Blogs I Read (and
that's saying DB: Yes.
something) LL: He's nine years older than me. So when I was born he was nine years
Big Glee! The Albert old and we hardly had anything to do with each other. By the time I was
BryanBi&Jey nine he was 18 and he went into the Service, it was World War II. He was
Archives
in the Service for a while, until the end of the War I guess; and as I said, I
1978 INCREDIBLE HULK
Ads From TV GUIDE' was in Manhattan for a few years, in my teen years.
Lynda Carter' Marvel
24 minutes ago DB: What kind of art schooling did you have?
LL: Well it was just public schools there, where everybody went. It was
A Distant Soil by
~
nothing special. As a kid you start about five years old, I did that in the
http:// ohdannyboy. blogspot.com/2007/08/looking-back-with-Iarry-lieber .html 12/9/2010
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20th Century Danny Boy: Looking Back With Lany Lieber Page 3 of30
The price. cost and Bronx and then in Manhattan I did the same. I went to Junior High
value of a comic School and then High School. I went to a place called George
creator
TALLER DE
Washington High School, up in Washington Heights and my brother had
ILUSIRACI6N 2010·2011 gone to De Witt Clinton High School in the Bronx. I would have liked to
FILMSFX have gone there but you had to live there to go, so I wasn't eligible.
8 hours ago
12/09,'2010
12 hours ago When it was time for High School, I tried to get into a High School that
Everyone's Wronr.: specialised in music and art and that's what it was called, High School of
and I'm Rir.:ht Music and Art, but I didn't make it. I asked why I didn't make it and they
A Little Help for Paty said, "One of your teachers said you had a poor attendance record,"
Cockrum. Please
13 hours ago which was untrue. The one thing I know is I came to school, maybe I
wasn't a good student or something, but I was there. At any rate, I never
Kevin Nowlan
Quesada Sleepwalker got into Music & Art and I always regretted it.
14 hours ago
DB: And how did you
Those Fabu!eous so's
23 hours ago
break into the comic
book industry?
Blimey! It's another
blo& about oomicsl LL: It was in my family
The Christmas TOXIC really. My brother was in
1 day ago
it and he started wh~n he
Dare to Believe was about 17 or 18 or
A nice sur.prise in the
ll1l!il. whatever. Also my uncle
1 day ago was in it and a cousin of
ink destroyed my ours owned the
brush company. At that time it
Is It Really A Bomb If It
was called Tim ely
~~
Knows It? Comics and he owned it,
1 day ago
Martin Goodman. I was
Writer Beware Blogl just a kid and kids liked
TI1e 2011Indie Publisbin&
comics at that time. We
Clmtrn
1 Jay ago didn't have television
Attack at Don! then and so there were
Drawing ofthe Dsw newspaper comics and
1 day
ago
the comic books. I used
Gorilla Daze
to like to draw and copy
Reach for Happiness!
2 days ago them and so on. I remember once, and I don't know when it was, but my
The Continuin& uncle, Rob Solomon, took me down to Timely Comics. They were in a
Adventures Of Your building called the McGraw Hill Building, later on in the Empire State
Own Personal Jesus Building. I actually worked there when I was about 17, but not in the
#237' Doctor Doctor
2daysago comics; and he took me down there. While I was there I remember
meeting Jack Kirby. I was a kid and Jack Kirby drew a picture for me,
A Ifout In The Milk
Hi,Hi.Hi you know, because it's a little picture of Captain America and Bucky and
4daysago it's signed, "Hi Larry, your pal Captain America and Bucky!" It was
Scott Koblish signed Jack Kirby and then Joe Simon signed it also. I still have the
M2re art uo on The original drawing here hanging in a frame.
Artist's Choice Websitew
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4daysago
Simon and Kirby· DB: Oh beautiful.

Jack Kirby Museum LL: I don't know how young you are, may I ask?
& Research Center
Simon and Kirby and
Graphic Novels DB: l'm38.
sdaysago
LL: Okay, well that's
.J.M. DeMatteis's young from where I sit.
CRF.ATION POINT
PORTALS TO OTHER I'm 74·
DIMENSIONS-TEN
CENTSEACH 1 My mother died when I
1 week ago
was 16. My brother was
Four Realities
back from the Service, he
CASTLE. WMITNG <a lzy
!Jnda Medley was just married and he
1 week ago
moved out outside of
Satlma's Blo;spot New York to Long Island.
!n.!.rlm'iiL.wi.lhl!22_llli
2 weeks ago
I lived with him for a
while and it didn't work
Foilwoman's Diary
The Happy Elf out so well. I wanted to
2weeksago leave, so I left. I was very
Comics Down Under Y<?ung and I had. a couple'
Reg Pitt - Sydney Morning
of jobs.
Herald- Objtuazy
3 week:; ago
Brendan D Carson's I worked for the New

Fiction York Times as a
Uncannv unfunny messenger when I was 17
=
3weeksago and I also worked in a lettering studio in Times Square. I worked for an
Kat Klaw's Amazin& excellent letterer who did lettering with a brush. His name was Sam
~ Furber and he had done lettering on movies, when you see movies in
Embroiderv . the thing those days you'd see a title like 'Beau Geste' and it was lettered by hand. I
the kids are reaJly doing
and just doo't say jt don't know what they called it, show card, whatever the heck it was, but
1 month ago you had to be a very good letterer to do it with a brush. I was in his
Intwines lettering studio and he wanted to teach me to Jetter, but I draw with my
Wine R.evit,w · • 2005 left hand, even though I do everything else with my right hand and he
Penfolds St Henri
1 month ago said you can't be a left handed letterer, you've got to work with your right
Herb Trimpe's Hulk
hand.
I=ll£ihlili\!lk_!l93..J)Ql;
Samson's back. I tried and I couldn't of course, it was very difficult, so I didn't really
1month ago
letter. I then worked for a company called Magazine Management, which
Stran.wr's Fever
was also owned by Goodman and they put out other books, not comics.
!:if
1 month ago They put out movie magazines, what they called men's magazines like
PRA Declassified Male Stag and things like that and they put out some pocket books.
A Euronean Faizy Tale
Land .. in the! of .Japan
2 months ago
Any rate I worked there but I had no skills at all. All I did was paste up. I
did so much paste up with rubber cement and I was using the thinners
bosco' s blog I
Andrew Boscardin: that after a while I found out I had no fingerprints. Along came the
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Comnoser& Korean War and I joined up. When you join the Service the first thing
Guitarist they want to do is take your fingerprints so they can keep track of you
Thnn&Lill Be Quiet Now
3 months ago and I had to come back two or three times to the fingerprints, the
The Ghost Who developer said, "We're not getting anything".
~
Who's Your favorite So that was my thing there and at the time I was living in Manhattan. I
Inklli
3 months ago lived in a hotel for about a year and a half that no longer exists. The
Pulp Hero
Hotel Manhattan Towers, it was on Broadway and 76th Street; and then
Lilli~ I went into the Service for four years and the first year when I got out of
4 months ago basic. The basic training was at a place that also no longer exists
Michael Netzer anymore. It was a place called Sampson Air Force Base, up near the
Online Portal Finger Lake area of New York State, Lake Geneva I think it was; and I
CRAZ¥ ABOUf COMICS
Sketchbook was there for a year and a half.
4monthsago
The Adelaide Index When you first come

Spoz Watch - Steering By
out of basic training
Still
4 months 090 they have to give you
ang:rvpenguin a job of some sort
Comedy Channel is not right? You can't do
bdns funny - odair basic forever so they
smonthsago
ask you what you'd
BLAQBOOKS
Closing Down Sale - so% like to do, what you're
Off EVERYTHING In suited for and I said,
Store. One Dav Only
6 months ago
"I don't know," and as
it turned out I wasn't
Fragments from a
Second Shore suited for anything. I
Word Balloons 11. May didn't know enough
mathematics to be a
7monthsago
technician and I
Rarnloms
The Ma&icka! Matrix- my hadn't gone to college
lrnhy where I could I think
?months ago
be a pilot, you had to
MARCHMODOK have more education
MAPNF.SS.
MODOKonthe
and more this. So I
ME!l.OWI said, "Well I know
8 months ago
how to draw," and the guy said, "You can draw?" I said, "Yeah". So he
Chad E: Reflections gives me a piece of pencil and a paper and he says, "Draw me." So I
)'_Qlitics - Evccybo<ly' s got
sometWng to hide except
sketched the man and it must have been good enough. He says, "Alright,
for me and my monkey you can draw, you're an artist".
Bmonthsago
Tbelifeand Unfortunately there was no classification for an artist when you get out
adventures of Jimmy
of basic. When I got out of basic training I had one stripe on me. In the
Melrose
A ri<.le in the Puss Mot!J Army that would have been called a Private First Class, in the Air Force it
10 months ago was an Airman Third Class. So there was no classification for an artist.
The Fate of the Artist So the nearest classification they had was a draftsman. So they classified
hrtp://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/08/looking-back-with-larry-lieber.html I 2/9/2010
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notes from the me as a draftsman, which I'm not. A draftsman knows how to make
junkvard plans for bridges, buildings and things and I don't know the first thing
Three Psych!!J!..futl_q~
gril;~_Q[_()I~
about it. So I'm classified as a draftsman and they put me in the training
10 months ago aides where they were making up different things. While I was there I
Shishyboo's made up a little cartoon character. I wasn't really a cartoonist; I wanted
HeyJbjslsMei.jkeltO to be a comic artist, like Jack Kirby, doing heroes or something or other,
rLumplt more realistic, not humorous cartoons.
llli.illll!lhing
10 months ago
Will Eisner; A But I happen to make up this little thing, I think it was called Itch and
Spirited Life Scratch and it appeared in the Base Newspaper. After it appeared in the
Feed has moved Base Newspaper I received a letter or something from a Sergeant in
10 months ago
Wright Patterson Air Force Base which is a very big Air Base in Dayton,
~
1 year ago Ohio. He wrote to me and said, "I've seen your work and we're starting a
Fuck You. Penguin command wide magazine and we'd like to have you work on it, we think
llil!it!:YJ:nJhink about you're good". So I was delighted, I thought, "Oh boy that'll be great". But
trying to sneak b_y me
it took a little while for him to process the papers to go through and to
1 year ago
get me there and in the meantime at Sampson, they got a call from the
Michelle's Place
A!LArbitrarv Number of Far East that they needed a draftsman.
Songs That Move Me
1 year ago
Now the place where.! was working _in was the training aides. It
ThelnkBlog reminded me of a prison movie a little bit, in that there was a guy in
Random Desk Sket:ch of
~
charge, a Sergeant in Charge and the Sergeant had his friends, people he
year ago
1 liked and they flattered him a lot. They called him by his initials, and
Jimmy T's blog whenever a call came through it was up to the Sergeant to select
I'M Back! somebody to go overseas. Well he never selected his friends, he selected
1 yearogo
the people who were sort of the outsiders and I was one of the outsiders.
SjmonsSez
March of Dimes 2009
There was a guy from West Virginia who was an outsider, somebody else
1 year ago who was a tough guy from Brooklyn and a few others and me.
ComicsHistocyMista
keHunters So he picked me and when he told you this, it was so funny, the reason I
This Fan Finds IT'S A
say it's like a prison, he had a room where all his friends would sit in the
fANZINE so Fine
Readjng!!! room and he would face them like a school teacher facing a classroom
1 year ago and the people who weren't his friends were outside the room.
STAN'S SQAPBOX
W.ANNATRADEMEFOR
I was called into the room and he told me you have to go and so on and
THIS COMIC>
1 year ago that he picked me. Okay. Well I thought I'm going to go over there, they
Search This Blog think I'm a draftsman, I'm not, they're not going to be happy with that
I". Search but somebody in Wright Patterson Base knows what I am and wants me,
l'l(J\"t'i~red hy (:Oogte·:.- it would be a lot better to go where I can be appropriate, where I could
do the work. But I didn't know what to do. So I went to a place on the
Want Your Own base called the Air and Spec you can go there with grievances and
Site And Think You problems and so on. So I went there.
Can't Afford It?
If you're a comic book artist Unfortunately the Air Inspector, some Sergeant, I don't know, he'd been
or professional and are in a long time, had I guess the military type of reasoning. I told him the
interested in getting your
http://ohdannyboy .blogspot.com/2007/08/looking-back-with-larry-lieber.html 12/9/2010
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own site up and running then Sergeant wanted me and the first thing he said was, "Look, I am not
by all means feel free to fire
interested in any deals entered into between you and a Sergeant out of
down m.rnuill and we'll
work something out. We'll be base". He said, "You're classified, you're going". I said, "But I'm not a
happy to set up a site that draftsman". He said, "You're classified as a draftsman, you're supposed
more than meets your needs to be a draftsman". There was no reasoning with him. I'm supposed to be
at a very decent price (ie:
a draftsman. If I explained why they gave me that, he didn't want to
usually nothing. I just like
doing that kind of stuff as a
know that. It was a real military thing. If you're classified, you're
favour). supposed to learn it quick.
How Utterly Odd: So it was hopeless. So they sent me overseas. I just remember being on a
Facebook Comic big ship and they sent me to Okinawa. It took about 12 days to get there.
Con I Daniel Best, The first day I was sea sick, second day sea sick and as soon as I stopped
2oth Century throwing up, they put me on duty for the trip doing KP in the kitchen. So
Danny for 12 days I was washing dishes and doing this and doing that. The last
day I cut my finger and whoever was in charge took pity on me and said,
"Alright, you can take off today". That was the last day. So that was my
lovely trip abroad.
When I got there I had to report in. I reported and I just remember there
was one point where I entered ,a room and SO!f1ebody "All at last, a
draftsman is here." This was when I felt I was in a prison movie like the
new guy and I had to tell them, "I'm not a draftsman fella's, I don't ... "
and they looked at me. Well they realised it's not my fault, so they
weren't going to throw me into the sea. "Oh shit we didn't get..." I don't
know anything about drafting. So they said just kept out of their way .
.Join Up And Attack Away!
Follow:
with Google Friend There was a recreation room and I learned to play a little bit of pool but I
Connect had to do something so finally they put me in training aides there too. It
Followers (67) MQm gets even better. On the base, or in the Air Force, there are two kinds of
:a'' . ·
[t1
officers or there were then. There are officers who fly planes and there
are offices that don't fly planes. Now the officers who fly planes are
11~ • ">.':'.
generally nice guys. They have their airplanes, they fly, they're proud and
:~> all that. The ones who don't fly planes aren't always nice because I guess
~-
they must feel a little inferior, you know. You're in the Air Force and you
don't tly, what are you doing? Yeah, compared to the pilots.
~-a
AlrA;:j"<iV R mP.mMr?Sinn in
So they're usually the people who want discipline and other things that
compensate them. Although [ don't know that many of them. But on our
[ X 20th Century Danny Boy base we had a guy who was a handsome man and a pilot and he had the
name to go with it too, Colonel Kincaid; and he was a wonderful guy.
But he had an assistant under him and his name was Colonel Twitty.
Colonel Twitty was not a pilot and he believed in military discipline and
the morale on Okinawa was very low. At the time it had, I believe, the
http :IIo hdannyboy. blogspo t.co m/2007/0 8/looking-back-with-larry -lieber. h tml 12/9/2010
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second highest
Links Of Interest:
venereal disease rate
Artists Writers And
More in the Air Force or
something. In those
Alan Weiss· If he was any days it wasn't so
better he'd be ille&al
Bob Almond: Brilliant inker
serious because they
and &eneral all round good didn't have AIDS or
gyy anything that they
Bob Hall: What do comic
couldn't cure.
books and Shakespeare have
in common') Ask Bob'
Whatever the guys got
Fred Hembeck: Read his they gave them
stuff. vou'll wet yourself penicillin and they got
Gene Colan: Tbe Master cured. It also had
Heney Kujawa 1S Zodiac
about the lowest
~
,Jim Tournas: lnker Of Great reenlistment rate in
Nllli: the Air Force which
Mike Esoosjto. aka Mickey
you can usually tell
Demeo. aka Mike D aka Joe
Gaudjoso. a!sa Esooia. al<a
about the military. You
Em2 know if people reenlist
Norm Breyfogle: The Man! it's not bad. So it
The Artist' Visit his forumS wasn't a very great
and say hello
place; and because of that Colonel Twitty decided that we need to bolster
Snaked' Clifford Meth At His
Einm the morale. He came up with the idea that everybody should go through
The Mventures Of Michael basic training again. Now most of these people had been in the Service
Netzer: It's a Netzer world for a while. It was my second year or third year. See this will give you
we iust live in it
morale. That's what we need.
The Australian Cartoonists'
Association
Tony's Tins! Tonv Isabella, So they had to make up plans for this and ail that and I'm still not a
one of the finest ooople I draftsman but I made up some signs. I had to work on it, I don't
know
remember how and they made a training centre and as luck would have
it, or irony or poetic justice or whatever, I was one of those working on it
Links Of Interest: and they sent me through, one of the first. So I had to go back into basic
Publishers And training again on this hot and miserable island of Okinawa; and we had
More two leper colonies off the island there. We had snakes there, poisonous
The Comic Cartoonist's snakes. We slept under mosquito nets for two years because they were
Workbook afraid of encephalitis.
Banana Tail! Mark
McKenna's Book For
So it wasn't a delight. Somebody described it once. They said, "It's the
Childr.\m
Larry Shell: Just A Damned only place where you can stand with mud up to your knees and have dust
Good Guy blow in your face at the same time." It never got too cold or too hot but
AardWolf Publishing· Doing-
because of the humidity you felt it very much when the weather was
the good thing on a daj)y
kind. But I went through it and then, and this was my triumph in the Air
llas.i&
Bill Schelly· author artist. Force, Colonel Twitty decided he wanted an emblem on the base, a new
comic fandom historian and emblem or something and the case headquarters and he wanted an eagle
a damn good guy
painted. So they come to me and they say "Ueber you've got to paint an
http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007 /08/looking-back-with-larry-lieber.html 12/9/2010
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Charlton Spotlight: One of eagle".

best magazines you're likely
ill1N<.!
Inter Fan: Great site devoted
Now Lieber had been to art school, Pratt Artist Institute, while I was
to comic book fandom doing my paste ups for Magazine Management, a couple of years, a few
years previously. But I never finished my illustration and I never really
painted a picture, I never got to it. So Lieber did not know how to paint,
inkwell and here I was given the assignment, I can't tell on my cans of paint, I'm
not a draftsman but now I'm not an artist.
So I don't know how the hell I did it, I really don't. But I must have
awards gotten photographs from Life Magazine of an eagle and he wanted a

fierce eagle no less. So I did it very slowly because I didn't know what I
was doing. I don't remember where I got the paints, some cans of paint
or why I stood on the ladder like Michelangelo because there was a big
Want To Send Us emblem. In the headquarters, I think it was a big shield and it had the
Something? number of the squadron, you know, above the shield and this was an
If you want to send us
eagle above that looking fierce and I must have been on that thing for
anything for review or just
feel like sending over weeks or months.
something for the fun of it,
then feel free to do so: Now between me and Colonel Twitty there were so!lle other offic~rs. My
POBOX3315
immediate officer was a warrant officer, a very nice man called Major
NORWOOD, SOUTH
AUSTRALIA 5067 Hamilton and he was due to retire. He didn't want anything to spoil his
AUSTRALIA retirement, the poor guy, and his boss was a major I liked very much, an
Review copies of books, older man. Anyway this major was his boss and he was a nice guy too,
comics, CDs, DVDs and free
everybody was nice. I guess Twitty in his own way was nice too.
tickets are always welcome-
if you send it we will plug it.
The only problem was I didn't know what the hell I was doing and it took
Win Some eBay me a long time, so I kept trying to paint. I swear to you, I don't
stuff! remember how I did it, whether I drew it first or must have drawn
Powersnipe eBay Auction
something looking at a picture; and I was working on it and working on
Sniper
it. Well as time went by, Colonel Twitty was getting impatient and he
would let the Major know he was impatient in no uncertain terms and
the Major would let the Warrant Officer know and those two guys were
sweating a little, understandably and the Warrant Officer said, "Lieber
when are you going to get this done? When are we going to have our
eagle?" They were all worried and I felt bad for them but I was doing the
best I could.
Anyway it took a very long time. I don't remember whether it was

months or weeks or whatever, and Colonel Twitty was going to have
apoplexy or something, have a fit. Finally Lieber finished the eagle okay
and they were going to have a ceremony. I remember standing in the
Headquarters down there, in front of the shield and everything and the
Warrant Officer that was there and the Major was there and they're
waiting for Colonel Twitty to arrive, you know; and Colonel Twitty
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arrived and when he walked in the first thing he did was give me a look,
Deals
that if looks could kill I would have dropped dead on the spot. Like you
son of a bitch, you're making me wait.
~ O...d Of The D;rv
-----
1 Lightning Dea1l
But then he looked at the thing and he looked up and when he looked up,
I
he looked up pass the shield and the number of the squad and he saw the
eagle. Suddenly his face broke into a smile and he said, "This was worth
waiting for"; and that was my triumph in the Service. The Warrant
I ~~~::~~
I :~~:~~=~~~r
' EOCSx
Officer breathed a sigh of relief, as did the Major and I and they took my
picture. We had a base newspaper and my picture appeared in the
newspaper, okay and oh boy was I relieved and happy and other people
talk about they were heroes, they were this, this was my triumph.
I was in the service for four years. The first year was at Sampson, two
01!17:41 remaining
years on Okinawa and then they said, "We're sending you back to the
%laliiiil States for your fourth year, where would you like to be, what section?" So
Discount apphed at
I checkout they gave us sections of choices. So the first section I picked was the East
Coast with New York City and they said, "What's your second choice?" I
[ _____ said, "My second choice is California". I thought that would be nice,
Hollywood, something I could look at. So they sent me to De,l Rio Texas,
1 eu~ 11est 0u1s
my choice. Del Rio Texas is a little town and the base was near the Rio
Grande River. It's nothing that anybody would really want to go to and it
Links Of Interest: reminded me of Okinawa, it was the same thing. Okinawa when you
Assorted Bits Of looked out, all you saw was water and here when you looked out, all you
Interest saw was sand.
Writer Beware· Read Before

You Commit To A Publisher So that was it. I always kept that newspaper and years later when I was
Dvnamic Duo Comics- married they decided to have a Korean Reunion and they had it in West
Adelaide's Finest Comic Shou Virginia, I forget where it is. Virginia Beach I think it was; and I went
Don Morrison- 'The Home Of
with my wife, my late wife, and before I went I wanted to find that
The Sensational Bodgies
Bulldog Comics: My Pal newspaper, I don't think I had ever shown it to her. I looked all over my
Chru:lli: apartment, there are bundles, there's this, and I never found it. So I
Skyhooks! I'm Uving In The couldn't take it with me but I could tell people the story but they were
2lW. telling more interesting stories to guys who were in combat and in Korea
Jon Blake
'The Newgate Calendar and you know, all the battles. So that's my war experience.
The Oracle Of Kevin Bacon
Let's Spek Goodly Engrish DB: It sounds like the plot of Catch 22 or something like that.
Haunted Australia LL: Yeah, it could be a comedy. I'll give you another thing. Somebody
The Goodies
The Silent Film Website
wrote a play called the Tea House of the August Moon, I don't know if
American Lynching you've ever heard of that?
Hollywood Lost & Found -
Home of The Wilhelm DB: It rings a bell on me for some reason.
~
LL: There was a tea house on Okinawa, previously during World War II
or just after. Anyway while I was there, somebody wrote the play in the
United States and it was showing so because of that they went and
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opened another tea

r·-. :Ci~:O'rta· .· .. house to copy the play.
i l4.l'CSW1Skmjb
..·.• ""·.. -.··.••.. ·.~
Anyway that was a
-·-·-~~ ,~
~~·
'. · .· . . . C.·'""
..
•...•,:,- .· ...· .·
comedy with Marlon
Brando and you could
Visitor lOcations see it sometime with
Glen Ford. It was called
the Tea House of the
August Moon. So that's
'- _;., Clustrt.laps· ', that. Now what else. You
.. ···~~-~=c..:w~~•-c~~!i<;~.t!?..i!! ask a question so I can
[=-'-----~~
·-r--1 relax a second.
'-----
RushMahEgo DB: When you got out

Who links to me? of the Services you went
straight into working at
Marvel?
LL: Well not quite, a
couple of years later. I
went to art school for a
'
while. I still wanted to
be an illustrator but I didn't go back to Pratt, instead I went to the Art
Students League. I wanted to study and I ended up actually studying
with a famous teacher there but I had to leave in the middle of it and
again I never finished painting, I never learnt to paint.
He had a thing when you paint a picture, I think it was ten steps, I was
Pr'1vac Information
up to step three when I had to quit. So I still can't paint a picture and
years later when I joined the Society of Illustrators because they lowered
their standards and let me in as a comic artist. I used to be embarrassed.
I'd go there and I'd say I'm not a painter, I'm not an illustrator, but it
G!Posts
turned out that I was like a star because it's almost like a dark haired girl
going to Scandinavia, she stands out you know, or a blonde in South
America. So I stood out, "Oh you did Spider-Man"? But I never became
What? You Missed the illustrator.
Something? New &
Improved Archive, But I started working and I forget exactly what, it was in 1958. I wasn't
Same Stuff Though fast enough or good enough to draw comics, although that was what I
.. 2010 (uo) wanted to do, so my brother offered me a chance to write .
.. 2009 (124)
.. 2008 (146) In the art school at that time, they didn't teach you how to draw without
,.. 2007 (215) a model. All the drawing when you learn anatomy they have models
.. 12/30- 01(06 (3) there. So with a model what you do is, you develop your eye, you get a
.. 12/23- 12/30 (2) very good eye and most artists use models. Illustrators do it, certainly the
.. 12/16. 12/23 (2) fine artists didn't just make it up, they draw with models. In comics it's
.. 12/09- 12/16 (1)
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~ 12/02 - 12/09 (4) the one field you don't use models. You're not getting paid enough and
~ 11/25- 12/02 (3) you've got to grind out picture after picture and be able to construct the
~ 11/18-11/25 (3) figure and do it so that I never really learned. You know I wasn't that
~ 11/11- 11/18 (2) good at it.
~ 11/04- 11/11 (1)
;~~~~~!~~~;i~~:~~
~ 10/28 - 11/04 (2)
~ 10/21- 10/28 (1)
~ 10/14- 10/21 (1) DB:
whatI've always
training youwondered
had
~ 09/30 -10/07 (1)
when you started writing.
~ 09/23- 09/30 (5)
LL: Oh okay. My brother
~ 09/16- 09/23 (2)
said he bad no writer but
~ 09/09- 09/16 (3)
himself. He was the only
~ 08/26- 09/02 (3)
~ o8j19- o8j26 (6)
one. He said, "I can use
~ 08/12-08/19 (9)
you, you can help me, you
can write". I said, "Stan
" 08/05- 08/12 (3)
M~!bQum~ Oh Bil!~r I'm not a writer". He said,
Cit: QHlilling I~m "Oh I've read your letters
l:ilillil!:CY<e!l from the Service, you can
kQ9J<.ing l>a~k With write. I'll show you, you
l.o1[t:)' [,ie!ler
can do it". So he taught
~ 07729- o8jo5 (8)
me and that was an
~ 07/22-07/29 (4)
interesting experience for
~ 07/15-07/22 (5)
about I don't know how
~ 07/08-07/15 (4)
many years, I guess a few
~ 07/01-07/08 (5)
~
years. Let's say 1958,
o6/24- 07/01 (1)
~ o6/>7- o6j24 (4)
1959. 1960, 1961, 1962.
~ 06/to- 06/17 (4) Yeall for a few years I was writing.
~ 06/03-06/10 (3) At first they were, the stories were these, what were these monster
~ 05/27- 06/03 (2) stories and you know the books?
~ 05/20- 05/27 (7)
~ 05/13- 05/20 (8) DB: Journey into Mystery ...
~ 05/06- 05/13 (2) LL: Yes, that's it. Journey into Mystery.
~ 04/29- osfo6 (9)
~ 04/22 - 04/29 (s) DB: Tales To Astonish, Tales Of Suspense...
~ 04/15-04/22 (6) LL: Yeall, those books right. They were five page stories or seven page
~ 04/08- 04/15 (12) stories, he would make up the plot then he would give it to me and I
~ 04/01-04/08 (9) would write it. At the time I was living in a place called Tudor City, in a
~ 03/25- 04/01 (4) furnished room. I would write and I wrote stories for Jack Kirby who was
~ 03/18-03/25 (4)
so fast; he was drawing faster than I could write. I had to keep feeding
~ 03/11- 03/18 (4)
him stories; he needed them to earn a living. I think he was living in New
~ 03/04- 03/11 (3)
Jersey at the time and I'd go to the post office on Saturday night and
~ o2/25- o3/o4 (5)
send the stuff there. I did that for a few years; and then they started
~ o2j18- o2/25 (sJ
making up the Super Heroes and I wrote a few of the first, Ant Man and
~ 02/11- 02/18 (8)
~ 02/04-02/11 (7)
Iron Man and Thor.
~ 01/28 - 02/04 (6)
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... 01/21· 01/28 (9) Stan again made up the plots, but I made up the civilian names for a few
... 01/14- 01/21 (3) of them that I create. Let's see, the Ant Man was Henry Pym. I made up
... 01/07- 01/14 (2) the name Henry Pym and Don Blake I made up for Thor and Tony Stark
... 2006 (168) I made up, you know. But the important names, such as Ant Man, Thor
... 2005 (44) and Iron Man, Stan made up.
... 2004(8)
... 2003 (3)
So that was what I did. I must have drawn a little and then when they
started doing the superheroes, he needed other people to draw them. It
Popular Posts
was more work and he was going to hire artists and I don't know how
We Made good I would have been as an Editor compared to others, so I never even
~
tried. I sort of melted into the background. I didn't want to write that
kind of stuff all that much. I didn't want to get involved; and what they
'.,
".....
·'" ~ :e:shington
fllill
did was Jack Kirby had been doing a Western and Western's weren't
In a most
excellent article, journalist
selling that well, it didn't matter what you did with them as long as they
Brigid Schulte tackles the sold a certain amount.
New York Apartment
scammers. The article was Anyway he of course was used on the superheroes which were important.
spawned by Brigid's ow ...
He was so wonderful at that.
Original Art
SQOO; When Jack gave up one
Win"nieThe of the Westerns, the
Pooh Pencil
Rawhide Kid, they gave
~
CHAPTER X, pages 168.169: it to me. Stan gave it to
Eeyore Was Moved To The me and it didn't matter
Front CHAPTER N, page 71: much, so I was really on
Tygers can't climb trees A
my own. I wrote and
pair of lithographs, as drawn
byth ... drew it and I enjoyed
that. I've always enjoyed
New York Scam· A Serious it when I write the stuff
Warnjng For All Travellers
and draw it myself and I
Be warned- read this, take
did that for seven years.
note and learn the easy way -
we've learnt this lesson the
hard way. As people who I liked it. However it
read this stnff on some wasn't that popular a
form ...
thing because everybody
Frank was interested in all the
~ superheroes.
Februarvg Occasionally I'd meet
1928- May
somebody who said,
!Q...;llllQ
Sad to say that Frank
"You know I read that
Frazetta has passed away, as one, I really liked it". So I enjoyed that and after that I did covers for a
the result of a stroke, on while, superhero covers. In the meantime I did some other things. There
Mothers Day evening, after was one point where I was doing romance comics. I was writing and they
spending time with his
were actually pretty good; and then there were periods where I had
family. Fra ...
difficulty getting work and Martin Goodman went into difficulty. I'll just
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20th Century Danny Boy: Looking Back With Larry Lieber Page 14 of 30
Haunted Locations: Kagunda put this in and I don't want to elaborate on this, but many of the artists
Cemeterv and writers could go from National comics from DC to Marvel, go back,
Over on Facebook I've been one and another, and if they weren't happy at one company they'd go to
uploading a lot of photos another. If they wanted more money they could go. I was the only one
from our various trips and
who could never do that because that was the price for Stan being my
touching on some of the
more unusual places we've brother. So I could never do that.
visited ....
As a matter of fact, once I didn't have any work and I sent work to DC
The Return
and a friend of mine brought it over, Frank Giacoia. He came back and
OfFrencby:
The Eyj! he said, "Well it's alright, but they'd have no need for it now," so I didn't
!Jlmnl get the work. Some time later, I was in a restaurant where some of the
Finally- it's artists in Manhattan used to go to and I happened to be sitting with
here. Be afraid, be very, very Carmine Infantino who was the art director of DC. We had met a few
afraid. After the longest wait
I can think of, just as long as
times before, we were friendly and I brought this up to him. I said, "You
the wait for DC to finally co ... know I sent over that work and I never heard", and he looked at me with
surprise and he said, "Do you mean that was on the level?" I said, "Yes,
Vinnie Colletta's Exit yes, I needed work". He hadn't replied because they were very
~lliltim
suspicious. They would have thought Stan Lee is sending over a spy or
Vinnie Colletta. Much has
been written about Vinnie in something you know. I would see what they're doing and go back or
the years since his passing whatever the hell it was. So I couldn't do that, I couldn't work.
(1991), not all of it is true or
accurate. Speak to a pro ...
So at any rate Martin
BATMAN: Alan Grant & Goodman started his
Norm Breyfogle Speak Ont company, Seaboard and
NORM BREYFOGLE AND Atlas. I knew colour
ALAN GRANT SPEAK comics and he was
OUTI'he 1980s were very
putting out colour comics
good to Batman in general. A
number of highly talented and he was putting out
artists and writers all wo ... black and white books,
like Warren Publications.
How To Beat
He picked me to do the
People l!p
The Dave black and white books
GjbbonsWay and he picked the guy
"We got poor from Warren to do the
Dave Gihhons to dress up as colour comics, don't ask
the host character. He was
really embarrassed, hut he
me why. It didn't work
did have a fun time doing the out and the guy ended up
photos w ... getting all the books
except a couple and then
Original Art
that didn't work out. The
Stories:
Frank Miller guy left and then I had to
~ do all the things. It was
~ an experience that was not too pleasant and I don't, I don't like to talk
You may remember a while
about it.
back I received an email from
The Former DC Staffer who
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discussed the falling out But when that was over,

between Frank Miller and I don't know, maybe it
Klaus.Ja ...
was only a year and a
half or something or a
year, I don't know how
long Seaboard was
around, about a year.
Then I came back from
Marvel and they offered
me a job in the British
Department. The British
Department was the
Department where they
did reprints of the books
and they sent them to
Great Britain and so I
What Kind Of had very little original to
Garbage Do I Write do. Actually we did make
About? Check Out up one original story
The Labels there which was Captain
norm breyfogle (89) Britain. John Buscema
original art (So) drew it and it was a delight to work with him, somebody else wrote it and
Australian Comics (66) I worked on covers. So I was in the British Department for a while; then
orijljna! art stories (43)
that ended, they closed the Department. Stan started Spider-Man in the
gene colan (39)
weird (35) newspapers. He was writing it, Romita was drawing it and then they
de comics (34) decided he wanted The Hulk. Let's try that. The Hulk was kind of
Newton Comjcs (33) popular on television; and so I drew The Hulk. Stan was writing it and
interview (33)
after a while The Hulk wasn't doing well and I don't know exactly why,
marvel comics (29)
l!mrum (2.8) but it wasn't and Stan decided to give it up, or give up his part. He said,
alan kupperberg; (27) "Larry if you want, you can write The Hulk and draw it". So once again I
dave simons (27) was writing and drawing and that I enjoyed even more than the Rawhide
ross andru (2.7)
Kid.
ffi(2.5)
!l1l!I:Ycl (2.5)
jjm mooney (22) I made up stories that I really liked and it lasted a little while. After that,
!lll1ffi; ( 2 2) after the Hulk, Stan left. I think he went out to Hollywood or out to
artists (2.0)
California and that's when Jim Shooter came in and took over. I didn't
~(2.0)
hrn1il&k (17) have any steady work then. I did a few inventory stories or different
adelaide (15) things, until finally they needed somebody, an artist, on Spider-Man on
hidden gems (15) the strip which Fred Kida had been doing until he retired. They tried
uartners for life (15)
somebody else and it didn't work out and they offered it to me and I
lll.l.!!kl; (13)
gene col an auction ( 13) started doing it and I've been doing it for 20 years now it'll be.
gene colan tribote (13)
U2. (12) DB: It's a long run.
clifford meth (12)
LL: Yealt. For a while after about the first or second year, I inked it
comjc books (12)
Wl!imm(t2.) myself but it was very hard in terms of time. I'd sit up all night inking it.
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inkwell awards (12) We were in this one room apartment studio and I'd be inking all night
michael netzer (12) and one day and then I'd rush down to King Features and deliver it. One
Marvel UK (n)
fo!lDer de staffer (11)
day I just delivered it to King Features and I left and I tried to think of
mike esposito (n) something and I couldn't think of the numbers, or remember dates or
~(11) something and I got a little nervous and I said, "Maybe I can't take this
recreations (n) sitting up all night, a whole night anymore. I'm not that young".
rich buckler (11)
jack kirbv (1o)
~(10) So I gave up the inking. I said, "Ifi ever get fast I'll do it again," but I
road trip ( 10) never went back to it and that's it, that's my story.
hi:runlll (9)
~(9)
dave sjmons aJWelll (9)
fred hembeck (9)
~(9)
kupperber~ ( 9)
maurice brawley (9)
new vears eve (9)
SUpe!lDan (9)
alan grant (8)
~(8)
DB: The Hulk newspaper strip; I remember reading that when it came
clw:lt2n (8)
from the desk of rich buckler out at the time and I always thought that the work you were doing there
(8) was more interesting than the comic book in a lot of ways.
goldengate (8) LL: Oh you mean the stories? Well thank you, yeah.
michael golden (8)
I liked doing it. When I was writing, before the superheroes, Stan was
movies (8)
neal adams (8) teaching me to write. Now he had never taught anybody else to write so
steven hove (8) he didn't know how well somebody learns or doesn't learn or, he didn't
vincent colletta (8) know how to compare me to anybody else. All he knew was I didn't write
~(8)
as well as he did.
Ginger Meggs (7)
~(7)
alan weiss ( 7) He wasn't always the most patient person and I had problems with the
avengers #1 splash (7) dialogue and he said, "Why did you say that? You could have said it this
bob almond (7)
way, or this way or that way," and I'm realising yeah, I don't think of it
ghost rider (7)
marvel masterworks (7) that way or this way.
J:l!im (7)
trave!lin' man (7) So at any rate finally I think at one point he got a little exasperated and
trevor von eeden (7)
he said, "Look," he said, "I'm going to hire some of the old pros." He
aroazing :wider-man (6)
birthday (6) remembered writers from the past. So anyway he must have for a while.
christmas (6) He still gave me work, he didn't want to take work away but they were
ffis;ke1 ( 6) putting out a few more books.
d~(6)
letters from beyond (6)
!.Qst (6) So he hired somebody and then the next week when I came back to him
!!ll1.ill (6) he said, "I don't know." He said, "Larry, you know something, you're no
steve rude (6) good, but you're better than these other guys". So that was my first
tr=l (6)
victory if you want to call that a victory right. The others are worse than
Mighly World Of Marvel (s)
~CsJ
me.
brian postman (S)
cheap arse hotels (S) My second victory came years later when I was doing the Hulk,
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commissions gone bad (5)

daredevil Csl
djck ayers (5)
dynamic duo comics (5)
first salvo (5)
frank miller (5)
free comic book day Csl
james kemsley Csl
iim mooney bio~:raphy (5)
iim tournas (5) newspapers, when I was writing it and he said to me one day, he said,
~Csl "Larry," he said, "I look at the Hulk, and it's very good. Also I think it's
PJiintin& Cs)
retro musjc (5)
even more dramatic than Spider-Man". So when he said that to me that
spider-man (5) he liked it and thought that in a certain way more dramatic. I felt good
.ili!!l.k!: CsJ about that. So that was my second victory.
steve ditko Csl Unfortunately the strip failed, it isn't around but Spider-Man still is. So
steve mitchell (5)
unscrewed (s)
those were my experiences in comics.
whinging bastard (5)
l!il1igjey (4) DB: Now for a writer who thought he couldn't really write, you probably
archie (4) wrote more stories for Jack Kirby than anyone else outside of Stan and
armando gil (4)
art commissions (4)
probably Joe Simon.
J!I1 theft (4) LL: Did I? Amazing. You would know better than I. I did write them for
atlas seaboard (4) a few years.
~(4)
~(4)
hl;>g (4)
Kirby was in every book. I
lmll!Illiln (4) remember some of the
camberwell (4) stories were for Don Heck
~(4)
and the only ones that I
cretinous officials (4)
never wrote, because Stan
delUh (4)
dick giordano (4) liked writing them himself,
ll.u\:h.Q (4) are the ones for Steve Ditko.
~(4) At the back of each book I
frank sprin~:er (4)
gentleman jim mooney (4)
think, there was a story for
1:tilJlt(4) Ditko and that was Stan's
groucho marx (4) own story.
idiots (4)
ioe sinnott (4)
I did learn to write and I
llliillin (4)
movie memorabillia (4) learned a lot from Stan.
publishers (4) Some years later he and
scammers (4) John Buscema had a course,
sketches (4)
stanley pitt (4)
an artist course teaching
steve epglehart (4) drawing to some people.
stolen art (4) They used work out of a
terry austin (4) hotel and I don't know how
th.dt(4)
long it lasted, maybe a
tony isabella (4)
weekly book Jist (4) couple of years. When they were about to end it or before they ended it,
IT Magazine (3) they decided they'd like to put writing into, teach people to write and
,John Romita (3) they asked me if I wanted to teach it. I remember I went there, down to
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Yaffa (3) this hotel, and for one semester I guess you'd call it or something, I was
adelaide photos (3)
teaching about six or seven people about comics and in order to teach
~(3)
bad movies (3)
them, I've never thought about it, I had to make up some kind of
birthdays (3) curriculum or something. I remember I had a whole hunch of index
blake bell (3) cards. What a comic should he, what it shouldn't he, I'd Xeroxed some
chadwick (3) papers to show, to explain this and that, and it must have been pretty
cockrum (3)
conan the barbarian (3)
good.
dave cockrum (3)
dave gibbons (3) I went down and when it was over, they gave me a book with a lot of
dead celebrities (3) appreciation saying how patient I was and how much they learned and so
george tuska (3)
~(3)
on.
green lantern (3)
!l!llk(3) DB: When you were writing back in the day of Marvel, did you write with
iron man (3) a particular artist in mind, such as Kirby?
jim starlin (3)
LL: No, I wasn't thinking of Jack when I did it. It could have been Jack
joe simon (3)
klaus janson (3) or Don Heck or anybody. The only one I was concerned about was Stan
mark eyanier (3) because I had to show it to him. I was only hoping Stan would like it but
lllilJ:@all rogers (3) Jack would do what he wants; I didn't care about what he did afterwards.
marv wolfman (3)
meth(3)
You know I just wanted to put something down that Stan would say,
mike zeck (3) "Hey, this is okay. Hey this pretty go~d, that reads nice". You know,
movie review (3) "that's okay". I remember he praised the names I made up, places and
!!U13 (3) people. You know my famous story which I told so many about Thor's
~(3)
hammer?
page publications (3)
places to avoid (3)
rip-off (3) DB: No, I don't think I've heard that one.
ml:!in (3) LL: You don't know that one? When Stan made up Thor and he gave him
snaked (3)
to me and said, "This guy has got a hammer and swings it around". I
soammers (3)
tim townsend (3) guess the hammer I felt it had to have a name. Maybe Stan said it, I don't
tom breyoort (3) remember. I just know because, there's going to be a name, I said, "What
tom ~ndberg (3) the hell kind of a name I'll give to the hammer", so it just came to me.
useless holidays (3)
wally wood (3)
~(2) I used to look at it in the back of the dictionary, Miriam Webster's they
4Q (2) have geographical places and they have biographical names and a lot I
adelaide comic centre (2) would take from that according to what the character was, what a person
adelaide comics and books
was and that's where I must have gotten Henry Pym or I got the name
site (2)
advertisments (2) Pym from an English scientist. It sounds like an English scientist; and so
agejsm in comjc books (2) somehow I made up the name and I wanted it to be short, I'm always
alex toth (2) thinking of the lettering. I also think of other people, I don't want to put
auctions (2)
a burden on the inker, on the letterer, so I said, "Uru". I made up the
avengers annual #10 (2)
bad journalism (2) name Uru, U-R-U.
benefit auctions (2)
bill jaaska (2) The Uru hammer, I said, "That sounds exciting". I don't know what the
bill nichols (2)
hell; it's just a name. So I made that thing up and after a couple of issues,
bill schelly ( 2)
bob dylan (2) Roy Thomas, who was the editor of the books, came in and one day I'm
brian holland (2) in the office, I don't know what I was doing and Roy came over to me and
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20th Century Danny Boy: Looking Back With Larry Lieber . Page 19 of30
charles hamilton (2) he comes over with this

cheap bastards (2)
big book, "Bullfinches
cra11 music (2)
dan~er's dozen (2)
Mythology". I never
defaced art (2) read the book. Roy
~(2) comes over to me and
don perlin (2) he says, "Larry, where
cliD (2)
~(2)
in here did you find the
eddie campbell (2) Uru hammer". I said,
evil clown comjcs (2) "Roy I didn't find it in
facebook comic con (2) there, I made it up,"
fake ebay auctions (2)
fantastic four (2)
and he looked aghast
fanzine~ (2) that I'd made it up
federal comics (2) because he had been a
fir.!: (2) schoolteacher, an
frank brunner (2)
frank frazett_ll (2)
English teacher. He left
frenchv the evil clown (2) and the next thing I
ivan reis (2) know, he found the real
jason chatfield (2) name for it which is
joe Rubinstein ( 2)
Mjiilnir or something
~(2)
, joe kubert (2) • according to the Norse
jona !ewje (2) legends, so it became
looking back with (2) Mjiilnir instead ofUru which was made up by Larry Lieber.
mark mckenna (2)
marx brothers (2)
melbourne (2) Well a couple years ago, a couple years ago they invited me out to the San
mike royer (2) Diego convention, which I think is the largest convention. I don't usually
moyjng house (2) go to conventions, I had never been there before but they invited me as a
lift= (2)
guest and I was on a panel. I'm on the panel and there were people in the
nexus (2)
nightmare (2) audience and I forget who else was there, there were a couple of men and
!lhan1run (2) there was a very talented writer and there was a woman on there from
photogrnphy (2) DC I think. Anyway I can't see the other people on the panel and
priest (2)
somebody in the audience asks me about it, everybody wants the story so
l2!imf (2)
queensland ( 2) I told the story of the Uru hammer and I said I made it up and then Roy
random updates (2) Thomas put the real name in, this and that and I hear a voice, a woman's
~(2) voice say, "You made that up?" and I said, "Yeah". She says, "Well don't
ric estrada (2)
you know what that means?" I said, "No, I don't know what it means",
russ heath (2)
:i!l.!ll] (2) and it turns out that it was a woman on the panel and she says, "In the
scans from the vault (2) Norse language or something that means power, strength".
'il:i.fury ( 2)
shuster and siegel (2)
In other words, it had an appropriate meaning which I had no idea, I just
IDQQID: (2)
spam email (2) made up a word. So I thought that was kind of cute. Here I make up
steranko (2) something which Roy changed immediately. But that's my claim to fame
steve ~erber (2) and fortune that I made up a name and it turned out to be an appropriate
the comic reader (2)
name, according to this woman.
the phantom (2)
~(2)
the world of steve ditko (2) DB: Getting back to the writing aspect and the artists. Were they Marvel-
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thomas edison (2) style or full scripts that you presented to artists like Kirby and Heck?
tl!ll.r (2) LL: They were full scripts and I didn't think of Jack when I wrote it at
todd mcfarlane (2}
tour posters (2} all. All I thought of was will Stan like this or will he tell me, "Larry this
trading cards (2) isn't good, you can't do this". I didn't want to hear something like that.
~(2)
will eisner (2)
DB: Now when you were
zeppelin (2)
12 stone toddler (1)
working at Marvel at that
15 albums (1) stage, were you working
.!97Q§ (1) at home or actually in the
2002 year jn review (1)
offices?
2oo8 vear in review (t)
200Q vear in review (I)
LL: When I was writing
2010 inkwell roundtable (1) this stuff I did it all at
Badia Romero(!) home. I would go into the
Bill Banick (1) office and Stan would give
Bog Beast (1)
Dave and Patv Cockrum me a synopsis, this is
Scholarship ( 1) what I want and I would
GerrvAlanguilan (1) take it home and write.
Qraeme Partrid"""David (1) When I started, I lived in
Jan Scheroenhuizen (1)
,Jose Luis (1)
this place, this little
Kelly Fre~ (1) furnished.room, this place ·
MICHAEL bau\derstone (1) in Manhattan called
Mike Pellerito (1) Tudor City. There's a little
Online Art Auction For
American Cancer Society (1)
park there, near the
South Australians Wantim: United Nations area, and
To Ban Those Pieces of Crao I remember sitting there
4WD's From Adelaide (1) with a pad and some
The Nearly Complete
yellow paper or something and because I was trained as an artist and I
Essential Hembeck Archlves
~(!) thought visually, especially with a comic.
Unknown Worlds Of Science
fictilm (1) I would lay it out at first in, little boxes, like I was doing little story
aardwolf publishing (1)
illl!; (1)
boards for myself; and I'd say, "Alright panel one, I'll do this or I'll do
academy award (t) that" and then write it. I'd sit out in the park when the weather was nice
action comics (1) and do it; and then I'd go into my room, I had a furnished room, one
adam hu!Wes (1) little room.
addaros family (1)
adelaide crows (1)
adolf hitler(!) I remember there was an elderly woman owned the apartment and the
adrienne colan (1) windows were not normal windows that opened up and down, go up and
adventures of unemployed down but they were little French windows that opened out, so you could
Jllil1l(l)
not put in an air-conditioner. So it got pretty hot in the city there then
ll.!l (1)
~(!) and I had a Varnado fan that saved my life, I kept it on all the time; and I
al milgrom (!) was at the typewriter, typing with two fingers and learning to write.
a! williamson (1)
alan david doane (t)
DB: On the job training.
alan davis(!)
alan moore (t) LL: Yeah it was, it really was and I learned a lot I think. My two favourite
album covers (!) writers were Rod Sirling and Sterling Silliphant and they were writing for
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alex iobnson (1) television. I used to hear their stuff. I love good dialogue and tried to
alex savjuk ( 1) write and think about it. That's how I did it, I'd have to send out a full
alfred hitchcock (1)
alice jn chains (1) script, it was always a full script.
amazing adventure (1)
amazini fantasy 15 (1) I think the Marvel style came when Stan was doing the superheroes and
ambrose bierce ( 1) he had so much to write. Also he was working with a guy like Jack. He
amputation (1)
amy winehouse (1)
knew the characters and could come up with different gimmicks
anamms (1) perhaps; things in the stories so. I don't know who started that, but I
andrew boscardin (1) never worked with it that way at all.
an~WS and robertson (1)
aquaman(1)
lll:illM (1) DB: So even after the
arcade fire (1) superhero thing
arctje monkeys (1) started and you were
arthur adams (1) working at Marvel in
l!!!iuru!f (1)
the late 196o's and
artists as characters (1)
~(1) the 1970's, you never
au\QgtaDhs (1) worked the Marvel
bad fashion (1) style, everything was
bad service (1)
full script for you?
bad tensile (1)
hl!lib.2 (1) LL: ~ far as I know,
bJllla.tat (1) yes. Now I could be
barack obama (1) wrong, my memory
batman year one (1)
isn't the best and so
~(1)
~(!) you may be able to
beetboyen (1) find somebody who
benedict arnold (1) says "He did write
benito mussolini (1)
Marvel style," but as
benjamin franklin (1)
bill everett (1) far as I know, I don't
bill finger ( 1) recall ever writing
billv thorne (1) that way. Not that I
black diamond (1)
know of. When I
black li~htninl{ (1)
black sabbath (1) wrote, every time, it was a script.
~(1)
blaq books (1) Except when I was writing for myself, like when I did the Hulk, but I'm
blazini combat (1)
not even sure then. I didn't have to type it all out when I did the Hulk. I
blue deyil (1)
blue line pro (1) don't know how I did it but I knew I was going to draw it and if I'm
bluegrass (1) drawing and writing it I could put it together.
bob andelman (1)
bob brown (1)
But I really don't, now that you mention it, I don't even recall how I did it
bob budiansky (1)
bob geldof (1) myself. But whenever it was anybody else, I don't remember ever telling
lmh..hJ!l! (1) somebody here's the story, go ahead and then I had to fit in dialogue. I
~(1) don't remember that process. Stan was very good at it. He could look at
bob lavton (!)
the picture and decide what the dialogue should be and sometimes he'd
bob mcleod (1)
bobshaw(1) look and he'd say, "Here's a little area that could use something". Oh he
bobbv pickett (I) did it so easily and smoothly.
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bo~an fest (1)

book launch (1) You know, "Here's a little area that could use something," and he'd put a
boys' ranch ( 1)
breaker moran! (1)
little gem in there in those days and just write to fit the story, to fit the
breakfast (I) drawing. I never did that as far as I know.
brian kon& (1)
bruce oatterson (I) DB: When you'd go up to the offices, who were some of the people
~(1)
<'aptain jack harkness (I)
that were hanging around at the times?
captain marvel (1) LL: Well it depends when. In the early years when I started writing
car accidents (I) before the superheroes, I was the only one he had. As a matter of fact, it
cardigans (1) was almost like something out of the movie Citizen Kane.
caro]vn jones ( 1)
~(!)
catwoman (1) When I started working for Stan doing those little stories he was in an
cemetery (1) office that was as big as nothing, like sornebody's little alcove almost. It
centrelink (I) had a window there and I don't k~ow if anybody was there with him. I
charles m schulz (1)
don't know if he had Sol Brodsky at the time or who the other people
charles yoaknm (1)
charlie brown (1) were. I just remember going up and there might have been somebody
charlie sexton (1) sitting there doing a little colouring. It was a narrow little nothing of a
china crisis (I) few feet and he was making all his own lettering corrections; and we
chtistmas wounds (1)
were on the second floor of a building on Madison Avenue and 6o of
christopher golden (1)
clavert (1) , looking down .into the street.
clllYPlllll (1)
coffee (I) Now the years pass and then came the superheroes, then carne this, the
comic art auctions (1)
company was sold to Perfect Films and Cadence Industries and Ronald
comic art commissions (t)
comic book conventions (1) Perlman. One day years later they have a party or something to
comic book publishers (I) celebrate; this was before business got bad. It was downtown in
cover art (1) Manhattan and I got an invitation. So I go down there and it was being
~(1)
held in I guess a discotheque or a nightclub, and I walk in there and I see
crows (1)
~(1) a load of people and I see people corning down a staircase dressed like
dale sherman (1) comic characters and I look over and I think I see Stan over there talking
dan pauosian (1) to Perlman and others and businessmen and artists and I think to
daniel best (1)
myself, like this feels like Citizen Kane to me. You know that movie?
dar en whrre ( 1)
das sagte nuff (1)
david allison (1) DB: Yes when they start up the newspaper it's with just Kane and his
david frith (1) assistant, the two people and then ...
david graf (1)
LL: Exactly. Yeah or where he carne from and he had the sled as a child.
david Iapham (1)
david lee roth (1) Well that's what I felt that this was. It started as nothing and I thought,
david mazzuccilelli (1) "Oh my God, look what this has become?" Because I didn't go down to
david niven (I) the office often or anything there. All those years I just thought Stan and
deadly earnest (I)
I were just about the only two. I think he had Brodsky doing it and then
death squard (1)
deathlok (1) later he got, as it went on, he got some more people, secretaries, a big
deevee (1) space. But that was the beginning. Later on I knew the artists when Jack
QWan1(1) Kirby would come up; when John Buscerna, the first time I met him. He
derik badman (1)
was the most amazing artist. I couldn't believe that anybody could be
detective comics (I)
dial b for blog (1) that good. The first time I met him I remember shaking hands with him
discussion (1) and he had a grip, I thought he'd crush my fingers. He didn't look very
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dismembeonent (t} much like an artist; he looked more like the Head of the Long
dodgy brothers (1}
Shareman's Union or something. You know he was a weightlifter but he
rumiliin (t)
domestic violence (I)
could draw the most beautiful and sensitive. I told him one day, I said "I
~(I) know your secret. You've sold your soul to the devil," I said, "because
~(I) nobody draws that well that hasn't". He was what I'd call the best
~(I)
drawer, maybe not the best artist, but the best drawer I ever saw.
drunken cats (I)
drunken santa (I)
Though I knew him I never saw much of Kirby. But occasionally he'd
llYd (t) come up but I knew him through his work and I loved his work very
dwight d eisenhower (I) much; and then I saw the others there.
edgar allan poe (t)
edgar rice burroughs (t)
edward woodward (t)
Gil Kane sometimes came up, as did Don Heck. When I worked with the
eisner award (I) staff, and there was a big staff there of people who, I don't know, they're
~(I) retired, they're gone. There was a wonderful inker who was I guess my
cllli (I) closest friend. His name was Frank Giacoia. He was wonderful and he
elvis preslex (t)
england (I)
was a very human guy. He and I had a similar problem, we were always
ill (I) late with our work, slow and behind, and he really suffered; but he was a
eric stanton (1) wonderful human being; and that's all. That's was it.
~(I)
erwin rommel! (t)
I knew Some others there
~(1}
essentials (I) of course. In the 196o's it
f scott fitzgerald (1) was a very relaxed
fak!m (t) atmosphere. So anybody
fantastic adventure (t)
fum (1)
could come in and they'd
fiction factorv (t) talk and they walked
flash companion (t) around and so on and so
flooQ (I) forth. Later on it changed
fumn (l)
very much because people
football (t)
limllrui (l) were different and I don't
four-color heroes (t) know. This is when
fu!1d (t) Cadance had it and they
frank james (I)
moved some place else
frank koch (I)
frank thorne (t) and they had to watch
frank zappa (I) things, people would steal
~(t) things. They'd come in
~(l)
and steal whatever the hell
gangrene (I)
garrv leach (I) they could so before I
gaspar saladino (t) could get in I had to be
lli!X (t) announced, I had to this,
~(t)
or wait out in the waiting
gerry acerno (t)
gerry conway (t) room for somebody to come and see you. It changed completely. But in
gerry turnbull (t) those early days, it was the most relaxed place you could think of and it
~(1) was very nice, it was very nice.
getting old (t)
IDdeon haigh (t)
&immi!.:k (I) I don't look back on the days with fondness because I barely got a living
&Qd (I) and I wasn't the artist that I wanted to be and they just were not happy
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~(1) days for me at all. But that's what it was. They were there and I do
~orilla
munch (1)
remember there were some nice, nice people and good artwork and a
governmental idiot~ (t)
W!fiiti (1) relaxed atmosphere.
green hornet (1)
greg brooks (1) I think most of the other people would tell you happier stories than I,
~:reg Iaroque (1)
because I think most ofthem were earning more of a living and as I said,
greg theakston (1)
gill:f (1)
they could go from company to company and they did this and that. For
grimmett (1) me it wasn't so great.
groucho (1) But I did have friends there. For a lot of the time I was living alone. I
harlan ellison (1) wasn't married and I didn't go out much. Then later on I did meet a
hart amos (1)
heath ledger (1)
woman, we got married and unfortunately there was a great deal of
heaven (1) illness on her part. We had a marriage but she's gone now and so I sit
heckle (1) here alone in the room and I try to go out and do things but I'm glad I
h.clki!t (1) have Spider-Man and in an odd way I try to think ahead of what I'd like
hembeck omnibus (1)
henley beach (1)
to do, what I'd still like to do. I seldom look back on those days with any
henry scamelli (1) great nostalgia, because I guess I was a lonely person and I didn't want to
herb trimne (1) be that way.
hero~(1)
hollywood (1)
humphreybbear (1)
I used to say as a matter of fact, I wish I had gone to College and there
~(1) were times I would, have wanted t? leave and just get a job, but I never
iced yo-vo (1) went to College. So often over the years if I meet a young artist who says,
ilkl!§ (1) "How do I, what do I draw, what do I do?" I say, "Look whatever you do,
influences (1)
go to College, get an education so if you ever decide you don't want to do
~(1)
inkwell forum (1) this, you could do something else. Don'tjust depend on comics." Also, I'll
internet (1) tell you one other thing which is kind of ironic. When I started writing
iiu:l!!!m (1) those comics, The Journey into Mystery type, I asked Martin Goodman,
i'onn i'onzz (1)
"How would you describe this industry? Because now I'm starting to
j.m. dematteis (1)
jack hawkins ( 1) write this stuff," and at the time he said, "I'd call it a dying industry," and
jaek ruby (1) it probably was; and so I didn't how long I would be around. Well the
james obarr (1) industry not only didn't die, but you know what happened and it was
jason sacks (1)
because of Stan I think. Stan was really made for comics. He and Jack
~(1)
jerry robinson (1) Kirby. I have always felt that he was the essential comic artist. Stan was
jim aparo (1) the essential comic writer and Jack was the essential comic artist; and by
jim cardillo (1) that they didn't put in anything more than a comic in their work and they
fuiu:icl: (1)
didn't put anything less than the best comic.
jim shooter (1)
iimmy barnes (1)
jjmmy nicol (1) DB: Makes sense. I've always thought that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby as a
ilil (1) team were far better...
illiMfy (1)
LL: Oh I thought they were the best.
~(1)
joe kubert school (1)
joe orlando (1) DB: ... than what they were on their own.
john beatty (1) LL: Yes, yes, because Kirby could add stuff to Stan's, that's why Stan
john buscema (1)
could do it. Jack needed Stan I think. There used to be friction between
john bvrne (1)
i2b.tukll (1) them and he left. He went over to DC and when he went there he put out
john howard (1) I don't know ten books or something or other, eleven, whatever it was,
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johnny cash (I) and almost all but one failed, they didn't make money.
johnny o'keefe (I)
~(I)
julius schwartz (I)
'Then he came back to Marvel later. But when he was with Stan certainly
justice league of america (1) they made money.
klullirula (1)
keith chatto (I) DB: There was a period there where everything they did was just pure
keith dallas (I)
kevin scott (1)
gold.
kevin smith ( 1) LL: Yes, yes. Jack was a very good storyteller and he knew how to do it.
king size comic ( 1) Stan certainly flourished and he developed this whole style of writing
kirby (1) that was very individual where he would talk to the writer. It was very
kirsty maccoll ( 1)
much his personality and if I happened to come across once in a while an
mc1J
!.miller (1) old comic, you know he didn't do that. I don't think he did it in the books
lan:y Iieber (1) that I was doing, Journey into Mystery, I don't think he had enough to do
larry shell (I) it to work. But when he started with the older superheroes, each one had
led zeppelin (1)
their own personality like Spider-Man and the dialogue was very
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Many thanks to Will Murray for making this interview possible- you're one rfthe
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mahatma gandhi (I)
man-thing (I) Scott said ...
manifesto (I) Larry Lieber has always fascinated me, because he really
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max august (I) Thanks for the interview, and Mr. Lieber, if you're reading
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michal ditkiewicz (1) --Scott Rowland
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mike marts (I) Danny,
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I've been reading through the interview and enjoying it. I've
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moira bertram (1) had the pleasure of speaking to Larry on the phone and
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monkees (1) meeting him in person in one of his rare New York
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Convention appearances. Larry is a a very low key guy with a
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~(!)
hear about the Silver Age creators. Thanks and thanks to Mr.
national library of australia
(I)
Lieber.
~(l) Thursday Febman; 07 2008 6·n·oo AM
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THE COPYRIGHT
STUFF
All characters, images and
text are © their respective
companies and owners. AJI
material ©their respective
creators unless noted
otherwise noted. AJI written
and editorial matter©
Daniel Best, (with exception
when work is clearly quoted
http://ohdannyboy. blogspot.com/2007/08/looking-back-with-larry-lieber.html 12/9/2010
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from other authors) and my

not be used, published,
reprinted or lifted in any
publicationt web-site or any
means without the express
prior pennission of the
author other than pull quotes
with full credit. Website©
2003 - 2010 ACAB
Publishing/Daniel Best.
Don't say you didn't read this
because I just won't listen.
This work is licenced under a

Creatiye Corrunons licence.
· Ads bv Gooqle Tat
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EXHIBIT 27
JA671
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stan lee 655 madison avenue n. y. 21 templeton 8-7900
l/9/63
Dear Jerry:
Enjoyed your letter as usual. Now, a few words of explanation
regarding some of your points ••••
You're right about Al Hartley's art work not being right for THOR.
Actually, Al specializes in teen-age strips (He does the PATSY WALKER
mag for us) and simply pinch-hit JRNY. INTO MYSTERY because it was
an emergency-- Jack was busy with mFF ish that was late, Joe Sinnott
was tied up with another job, etc. Al would be the first to admit it 1.s
not his cup of tea, although if he HADN'T. consented to draw that story,
we'd probably have missed an issue. "No loss" you might say-- but if
ever we DO miss an ish, it involves all sorts of red tape with the Post
Office, penalty fees, etc.
Actually, we have a very small staff-- quite unlike the NATIONAL COMICS
GROUP. If one of our men gets ill, or if a new mag is suddenly scheduled,
it throws everything haywire. We seem to exist from crises to crisis-- not
that we'd want it any other way! As for Jack starting strips and then
turning 'em over to less talented artists-- well, it's not quite that
simple. The poor guy only has two hands, and can only draw with ONE! I like
to have him start as many strips as possible, to get them off on the right
foot-- but he cannot physically keep 'em all up- in fact, I sometimes
wonder how he does. as much as he does do. At present he will concentrate
on FF and our new war mag, SGT. FURY-- as well as pinch-hitting for other
features if and when needed. AND he does almost all of our covers, of cours<
As for Ditko's art, you're right on most counts. But again, the pressure
of deadlines has to be our excuse. You can't possibly imagine how rushed we
are. It isn't a question of can't our artists do better (or can't I write
better)--- it's more a question of how well can we do in the brief time
alloted to us? Some day, in some far distant Nirvana, perhaps we will have
a chance to produce a strip without a frantic deadline hanging over us •.•
and then, brother, you'll see script and art work that'll put EVERYBODY
to shame!
EXHIBIT
/7,
THOM0002629
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PS:
You ask for news of future plans--
Well, we have a new character in the works for STRANGE TALES (just a
5-page filler named DR. STRANGE-~ Steve Ditko is gonna draw him. Sort
of a black magic theme. The first story is nothing great, but perhaps
we can make something of him-- 'twas Steve's idea, and I figgered we'd
give it a chance, although again, we had to rush the first one too
much. Little sidelight: Originally decided to call him MR. STRANGE,
but thought the MR. bit too similar to MR. FANTASTIC-- now however, I
just remember we had a villain called DR. STRANGE just XR&H«n recently
in one of our mags-- hope it won't be too confusing! Oh well •••
FF is easily our favorite book here at the Marvel bullpen. It's my baby
and I love it. People have asked for original scripts- actually, we don't
even HAVE any. I write the story plot- go over it with Jack- he draws it
up based on our hasty conferences- then, with his drawings in front of me,
I write the captions and dialogue, usually right on the original art work!
It seems to work out well, although it's not a system I'd advise anyone
else to try. ---We get do3ens of letters a day asking for FF puppets,
T-shirts, membership pins, records, everything-under-the-sun---- it really
seems to have attracted some very loyal fans. The THING seems to be be-
comming one of the favorite characters, and the YANCY STREET GANG a standin!
gag with lots of fans-- at least 6 i letters a day signed THE Y.S.GANGI
ANT-MAN seemed to need a shot in the arm, so we added the WASP as A.M's
partner. Hope she'll help. THOR goes his merry way with a seemingly de-
voted circle of fans, and I'm inclined to think we'll be playing up life
in ASGARD more and more as the issues go by. As for SPIDER-MAN, I wouldn't
be surprised if he turns into a real winner, judging by the mail ,.,.X: we're
receiving-- tremendous enthusiasm from the readers.
Mail-- that's my biggest problem. I take it too damn seriously- read each
and every letter- wish I could answer 1 em all- we get over a hundred a day-
sometimes over 500!!1 (after a long week-end). Cantt keep up with it• Fans
keep asking for MORE letters pages- wish we didn't have ANY! It's like a
tiger by the tail- can't let go- r
Can't really tell about our new plans.because they change from day to day.
We play it by ear- and base many decisions on comments from our mailbag.
But, hope the above may have been somewhat halpful-- back to FF now--
THOM0002630
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EXHIBIT 28
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K00143
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EXHIBIT 29
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PH_P00005396
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~ ur'riz~rhditar,
I t\ h.nily UC'Tef that M4:1'Vti's prtmic
born Sunley Lidur... or r..b.t.t Urrj l..Hba, ~ely M.arwl
1J1il..l
Stan Lu,
anlst 11.11d tti'Ti:tr, U hU yo-unrn lff-oihn:. n,, spl.uh P..!e-1 of • IOWI"~er

' of 17U}'or ~·rly-19601 M.crotl ~htro tJn iive St.m c:rtdit J(lf •pbJt"
· ~d. L:nry credit [r:tr "soipr.,. HO'WtltT, fliiMt this ... nl4tlly rne.:tltl, 41'14
·,he brorhm' m«hod of ,.,.w.g tc:«hn; h., ,.}y n<rt/y P.tn <O.d><d
upon. ~1w1 in P"ning. Ovtr ~'jUN. l!'tlfJl' "-fta becoming thr_.:tn.Ut of
~ long-nci'IJling Spidcr-Mlll M19rp11pU comic sn-ip 'Mitten lry Sun. ·
~h., P•<frmo ro loup • /cw. pro{U., b"' r..m rwli}y admit
rb.u, besidn liltin.r Urry 01J- tt fmtJn.d b~UU., I bne ~J [r.lt a.
arr.U tinsbip with him htc41Ut ht u...u rln onlj pmon buUU~
Sun w norit:e il1f'J rul whfmt of lrlttrfJUrtoriu b-ifr:we J 1Nll-- wd
I I
dtrul in in].}y of 1965, Alrrr E&o ~ gr""'"'}in rhn priviltgt of b.dl!",

inun.Wing Lztry. - R. T. As &.k:irl J
J:ik.rd {0 dntw, and for
R.OYffiOMAS, L=y. wOO. did youd.cide-ayuu "'""did, mon .llds~ liking ro clnw
oucdy-tht you w-a.nn:d to be _m ntUr? then-IDllybe iO ~
LARilY LIEBER: Oh, God. that wnuld be ytoJ bdon- I .....-as """' ~ roday-
doint: it pro:kmonally. I rnu;tt'ye been 11. nd, a ttenager. in
1 TUIT:Ed to co:m:iCs..
schoal I VK!S it ,.-u wheu.Sun 'WU.,. young 1I1:2Do £1m ""'i"'''"k- So tJut WilS the
ing for T.l.llldy Camia.. I knew my brothc- wn • writo" flJf" b~nning oi ir..
t::bt company, md 1 wu intuested in ronllo.-all the kids icr: WPerc- were
wtte. It was dutinr; Ute wa.r.I.Jl:li I rtm011b-cr Xirby. vbr.n
YDtJ born.?
c.prain Amm'a b<pn. I ~ hnino; • "Smtindo ol LibtttJ md
W>til I wu obom l<n ...I a h.!!, !hen &$f" W-'SPFS,

~ IDOTed.bt.d!: to Mmhsn.n, up io
~fuighr.o. During dw .U... -F£MJ 5P/Pff
Sunl\,Dt into the Armr.....! I ,... jwt ~ .:'A'.-f'.f'Y
· g"'--m.>ehool>nd~ Wh<nhnsm .L/EP~"'
)unio< lngb, [ ui<d lo !!"' into thoi£glt ScloooJ of D "''T
Mu<i< and An. but I oouldo'nd bo Wd
comttlring ahant my <~n=erui•tw"J: not being JOOd-lt wun't trne; I wu
llwaya thett.luJyway dw: w1:1 a hi« disappointmwt, bet... usc 1 felt I
can!d proba.bli drB u wdl as the otha tnrs- So 1 went m George
Wubiogton High School in Manha..., .00 tho 7<"' p,.,...J ....
R.T: It's h= «port«! you did ymr fint pru{c.,ioml wod< =nod 1950.
when you wue ~ oc t'lr'tnty.
LIEBER: In 1951 I wenr:inlo the .Air- F~ for four y~u, ~the
K.or~ War. I .spem: t1VO of dxm an Oki:u:wL Bd'ore I wmt ln, 1 W15
wad:int for Magazine Mam.~ ...
R1'! Wbn I ~in the door ther-e for thefim ~·iu 1%5, fd nner
heard the name "Magu.ine Management.'- Turned out Ihat was the
umbRlla name for Mntin Goodman's cumpmy, which loduded M.u-Td
Co~_wh.id then wu atmMt one-third of-th-e c:offipmy ... lmt also
men's raaguines, uue ~ru.,. derecive, puzzk,_, rnm"~ mags. a l:it-
tkbitol~
llEBEfu [\;gk Bad <hm Msnd....., Tnndy Comk>. At u>< rim< I

workd there, Mapzine Mmqemem: wu big when. .r:bc com.kt ~
big ... it wu small ...m~ the romia: were $m..ll Ax one timt; in dz lue
latry may h11cv~ had. a Stntmch ef L1bt11y badge, but with n t. yc.:.r or 1wo.
'Ws it was ju.n .an alcove. with one window, and St:na w~ doing .all the
Un:::le Sam-wl19 outr3nk~d ~wm Cap"::lm Amnku-ha~ :orr.m:tndJ>I:'!i:>d lhe correc-tions hirrudf; he: had w usUtanu.. Latt:r-1 think Flo [Suinbag.
' me:ta! in them. {QI999l•"<~rllel characlen.lnc.l m:m.:ry} ;me! Sol. Brodsky fpro~ ~gu] arne in. Bnt a f~:W
ye,us before, I wu working for M.zgu:ine- ~em~u. doing p3rte--ups,
· PH_P00005396
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Three spla~!w~ from Str~<r7g'>' Tot'e~ "S? (196~)-by !ttrby SAyer~. Htrk. ilnd IMkQ. Onfy the lil1ter had a wt l,n'~ c.red1tjor s•anl.ee, Hl thrr ofh!!r two were qufte
f>~Cbal>ly dl.!!tegw::d by l<my lteher !OI~!'r;; Milrvel Chara~t~m;_, tr~t:,}
md I WUlttt1 to be tn utiM, an illonn.tor. I 'W'U- working during dut day,

md. I went ttl Ptltt Art l::n:!lti:t'IJtt the~
domg thol..J ""'Y·""' Don H..t.:..,. rh=. Ditko UO«< ro doth<
•""Y" th<..,.! of the boob, and lata."'""'- did.An!..int .Ad.lt
F~ At the time I had a. rooru in Th-doc Cley, ~I wu writi ll~ tto-
Jffi In '>0-'51, w=Jd""' """'""" ~ ""~ oc both? :\1 r:ies for Jack tO dn;w.Jack: "'!Val £O fur,. md I wu lr:an:ri.ng to wrim. You
~JEBF.R;'Thowricing I .!idn't do. Wh<o I=>< oot .ttu tl.e ....X., I em i.pprrrlm this. Pm 111ft:: I didft't rnily knov- hov,lnd Stan 'It"*!
·..,. ., tb., A>< S<ud""' ~ ..d I roll w...d ro b. "'.,;,..,.) giTing me a wriclng oourser
do com:ics. but I hd in mind to n-t:n- Rlli hod tb.z tdnnago. 100-U only ""'
oWJr """""' an illum>to;,
I lwlto a!llllli-..ing. And St:an., at ~ fllll:btion of hi::. ,tyk_ bt jun bad u
u,, ri=-wdl, thin@>"""' lnJ. Ho lrmir:.ibJc Impuhe to ~ ~ tl) write ln
RI!Thu'"' .Jru
lud olJn= nobody wodiog fn< him.
u,.
Amcricul News colhpsc. w-hf:rl
Goodtna.o~s comics almon dosed
hit,.,.~.;., iust., &'D=1
UI'J!IlR: J- in t=nl The~ in hit
"JJe xoa!lycam<,i dink, wRhPMWtic
&.r....! $pikr'Mon. lklot. that, ho didn't
Jown for Wout a year. hne lfu.t kiod of Jtyfc; aod 'Widt m(; it 'WI:S
L1f.BER; Wait a minutt--l J;J do jun ~ prinqlles,_ rau know-: j~J.;t huw
some comi~:~ lhen. I did .rom.e- ,.. ..ru., ""' -nu.;, too """' ...ro.·
rotnll'lGC" c-omic&.. I wu ptaciling
I,TifE ·and -p'tJr: fD leu~ ~~nil ir'.r
them. And ~ wu .1 poirrt whete I GARGOYLE! weD-written they wCill't ~t to rud ir,'"
thu kind of thmg. I brood ol"' of oho
did writing, ""=< I """""""' S<., SOMETHING bun
31-ying to mt; '"You write romLQ~;:Q
rWiy wdl.," so I mwn ban 'Writ:tn
FANTAsTIC! ·
I..= on, k goc hio •ryl~ ,.; I didn't
romr.. In1958 Suuuld he ..-..Lllted puci<Ulorly wont to go with thu nyk
•.....bodr to bdp him writ<, ..d h. m.)'df. I COMinued ID ~ wh:m~ way
lud nOOody thon; k .... dcing it .u I did 'W"J"iu,. Latu, ~I '(lid tha- ~ert«m,.
himd I nid, 'Tm rul1y not • they w-ue not "tllitcen in Sw.'J nyJe. I
wri~'" He nit!, '"'Oh. r~ re:td your telllemher du.t llrby wu. &o f:ut he could
Jett.tts.'" So I ~hiy wrote the draw Wra th.ur: I Wl3 wrjling! Stan -would
~ m~ afw- tht.L "'l'"' ""' "]>d. n-b JnO<lm saiptl • I
R'l'! When the comics wen jU!t g:tt· war on 1-ln, aDd 1 used to :lit there
tin-gnaro:d up apn.
s«nmbr >nd S.nd.y, ..d then ,.., th,
Gruv:l Cernnl Pcm: Office rhu wit opro
L!EB£1{, w..n. tb.y w"" puuint all tbe time.
out.,. let's ~ ... ]o<m~ey iH.to
M~... TJwtt:~ ..WonUh-.... I
tn 19(i1·6~ Am9zmg lld«lt i;;ntMy bc(ame thl? outlet jor ihe l'.!t~ R'U I <=fro rue ub xid~ down tJ.=
Ditko "0. He:ray"~s~y~t t~re$ \011)99 Mar11e-l char-lt:f"rs, !r.t l frmn the Rut 80, at rnidnight or lmr,
nli'te:mbet- Jack Urby "Wir5 uJUAily
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"""""' ~;p.o;.l Ddi.ery "ooLII!"'"' s.m R=n put-he h1:d t. couple of rhem he tried
Artie Simek in Qu~ by rhe oeu out., rome of the Qld pee>$, mel lhen he
1'1novling.Soo;.,;""' it did,..,.,.,.;.,., itdidn'c uid to me, "Youc
a {C"11 yean: ahtad of me in du:t ~rt-. nuff Uc't clu.t gbOd,
You~ e1Clir:r that Sun would. .tty to but you kno-w,
necd, a nory llo':rW. • Did }'<1U plot rome rJ you 'ro! better thu!.
rnonmr stor1et. u ,..til? tJm:~ ~sl''
UEI!Ek No. St>n """~ "l' u.. rlol;. ...t """he'd givoit 10 .
me. md r d wrirx. the tcnpt- 1\idor City ~ a park; ant! whert
·
It Wl!l
Kn Killing yao wi<h
complimentt, hub?
o.ice.!'d Jit thtn: md ~ ~ 1t0ry d~n p~u b.~ picwre. I in$ UEJIEJt, ~ ;,_,
unwre of rnyd .(wit nlll1:ig dowu 00 W""nU a.sCl'lpr_ Stnce I kMw
~ott of a COIJlf'limc:rn..
Wccli
'1 hmo' 00 dm<, I'd !hiul "Oh, dtiJ ohot will h<v< • guy <omiog
this: way .•. d:ri.l shot w~'ll hue 1 guy looking do-oNn oo him," me, I.e mel no~ writer to
· md aw- I'd sit at. the typnrriter md type it up. After a while, romp-an me to, t:a:ept whn he
ran~ So~ faults he .uw in me, he- jwt
I'd ;asf to ro the typewrim:. I w6u.ld fol.low from SruJ•s plots..
fe:lt I wun't u socd u he "WA4. So be r..ook. rblrqp; very eur:
R'l'. Woold)ackhn< ~ poncilod tht omry~ ·w~ why doo't you do thia?'" But :a.s 1t .-~on, he got
UEBER: No. ~ w8t' d scdptJ fa .dYIJlC;I!.

~><tu< with"'~ Jrllw! 1>=
gave it np.
d""""•R=Jnu KJ<. aod he · •
R'Jl SoW.,...,.,~ "11•' y¢1 I ..h.l RU Tlut western tud a Wee fed,. which is p~hlr ooe ~
Sun recently jun how dut style =rt~ He ,
fdt <n<ybo F<NUUic p,, #I ..,. tht """'of u,
the most mccet:dul a1 tbt: ~ems- foe s:evenl. years.
ror;, ir 'Wla5 i
l
&uti ,..bed if, by l%1 ,.d bofon,he ..,.., UEB.ER.t I doo~t remember -why I 'W!I.nted to do .it, puticotarly. I
.lr<>dr doiog , _ clnngo pl.-u.-..h- £..- J..-.k think 1 '#WI-red .a little~ freedom. J didn't do enoogb oi ~
and other.. rnp...h"""' 10 l<oow ..hethor I'd like them. WJ.u I did.n~ p<d'er wu
the style tha~ VIII! deve-lopipg. It didn't tppeal to me.. .. bttt it~ tO
LIEBE& No. I think it snrtM with Frmustic ~erybo<!y ds.l
F!M', or- -.round t}le time he did tl)e ~
RTI W'u ir.lhe ;£.ct that it was more mdodn.ms.cic, cr w-ss i-t the- rallim?
RT1So yoo'd tnfn Sbn's ploo into a lirD rcript
lor ].dr. ... -.hoe= I L1E..BER! Maybe 'tbece wu jurt too ll1lKh humor in it, or too -'l"mdt
,...--~!!!!..---------·---..., ~I don't know. But, ola.df, 1,
I.IEEER! Or foc Don Heck, O£ .sottte-- ~ .......,bod.! =b<r. "tht rime,!
on.e. Scan liked vniriug his own JtOries W'2Jlted m J't!Ue ~ ce:ricMlJ. l
fu< DiBD. Jock I .U...,. bod to,..! • didn't-nnt tope slight toJV ro it,
ful.l sc:ript to, Also. vhu SuD lind wu Whm I did.~ Kid, I""""""'
!hat I made up oamc.&. & a fll.;'I[Ut' of peoplill' to cxy a:,: if they wtte w:m:bin1
:act, I madt: up the l'liDie "'Hfn11: Higb Noan or M~mething. The writers 1
?ym"' •.•• used to love were Rod Strl.ing, P\\dd:y
rn T'hat wou:id b.: .ia the '"'Mm. i:n the Clu.yev<ky, ~ Siliph""'- So I - . ,,
lntYI' o<o<y in T.k "'Ammith 117, trying to wriu: tha!. kirlJ of thin&·
Pbich led to Pymftmmi.Dg u AJlt:- Rl: YoDr fir1t tupc:£-hero work seemi
.W.. Y.. probahly ...d. np a lor of robe ThCJI" 'in]rJ~ into Mynvy M.
UJa dtu: people ust:mJe Sr.m cr Jttk 'I'huanle' oat in the WJhll1tt of'62, ro
m..d. Didn't you m.ke up "Doo yOu'd Jm.e done the Kript in d'lt!
a.· 'Whon you omp"" cl.elinl Thor Spring._ if DOt bdore.
my1 .
LIEBER.: 0~ incident I remMnber
II!BJ!R: I probably did. I ""'" • full with you md. me 1ru: l w..s in tho
J1pt ll:ld ie:Qt it off to Jatk.. When "WJIJI o~ and yo:u wne in. You'd b.Hrn
joll. cune ~ orw}len Stan sttrted porin!, a= B"'fo«b\ M:>t~ or
UUng tho "'!"'"l>n=1 ~and you~ ·'"Lrry, where
J:i.rntatic FO«T ame. O'llt ia :;1.llJ'lmM'". did you fmd thU 'uru lu.mm.~ in
mythology?' And I Wd. ,Roy, I didn't
19151~ ancfl started ~a.~
find it; I mal:e it up._.. And you looked
'"'<lln .md-'65. !y d.en, I bdi=
n me tike, "Why the hdl did )'<>n make
ro:'d -ab,~ Sl.lper-hero wtitint
~~ a year More. $mi. told me he
vayt liked your JCript!,. but thiat you
it up?• You went and found tb.t: ba.ro-
rner:'IO original n.wl~:.- M"JOlnir.. I.
lo't writ« •1ot ol sadl Yotl 1e~ed R.T: Bur 1 kept yom name for i-t, too.
~r off t0n.ee11tn.tin:g on the-~-
"> '~Y &wbiJ. Kid. .
""'-I rhoup,r
metal jt Wl-1 made of
·=·
<ould be the
EBElt: Stan wu- cr:itidl K>~ LIEISER: I kind of blwi it; it wu :~bo-n.
i he bew lludn't wrimn lw:fore I
:ud writin-g for him. He: thought
Henry f'ym must h.!!V/.1 th<iuqht !m .;:ncounii>T in an aflt hiUw\\~ )Us.1
a Q:'!C~1~-a ·lifetime Tfiir-'J' Wrong' {0 1999 M.-nvel Cha.ratters, hv;:.l
It'r l!llly on tbc letterer; dtey'l"( goink tO
be: using it !!ll the t:iiM-. I don't knOW' :I
k on writen he 6d known in (he
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~re the: hd.l

up with it.
Rl! SWI nid ho
Ic-arne :~;~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~;;~=:":.,:,d.;A:fnll~:om:.:p;t,;,;th<~o.nly way Ibow wtire.. No, wUt. .. l remembtt dm
how to
I md .-rn. " kut

aJw.ir thougbt onl norr from
you got it from a the :llrtWOr~
mydlology book. bunhat - in
rd t-. trying"' the 7\1<. r
•od< it down bdwo . . -... tim
lWk<d to you. th< p<OCil« lw!
ldt Jllll a lot: r;;r{
LIEBERt l uud "' gu ""P'l' '!'= to fill
"""" .., of .n.
of the dictibouy, from
b'"" up with dhloguo,
:md l didn't .-.m to
""'biop-.pbicol..won uu iull. .. "'I"""'
-.tbtte you have forcip in KJmC mon: art to
nun.., R...an, thi< ond
tMt. I ot.ed to go to it
fill "'' tho q>o<el
md g«> puu of...,... to R1l San ploaed th<
P"' "'gab"" =1y non.., bot .till,
the pmoo who tuma" •
R.Tl -urn" SOI.J.JlCb like a plot into a. full ~:cript
little- tcrwD iD PUiita.n. bu: to .dd thiDp. Foe
Then'• probably 1110 ·uro.. enmp.k,]oMn!ty into
..,.,.wh<n,· Bntufur ol! Mysury #15, th<
tbW
th<.. J"U" MjolnD'o b.<n 'I'hac nary; iotrod""""
arot~nd, 11J'10De -who"s nu Loki and Blld.r:r and
,. ;th tho
I
«ad th< old ....... rtill koa... A..gtrd .00 th< JWnbo...
'tho on> ho""""-• J!y that B"'W- AM fl6,
"-'~:<', of <XJUn<, St..n - do;,g tho plou
md J.d'"' ~down
th< """"-Did you ....... your CU«TWU " " " " " . - with phat< . ·.
lim ,..;thoro~;, "l'!ot-Sti.n 14;
1bmon-ow M.n, ..., tho
Script-l.any Lieb<r,
Art- Jd
all ~mper-heroea, Ot"W. the'I'lKI£ ocipn jun&nodlcr mxytoyou? Kir-~lnb-Dick Ayen.• M:aybeStanmade op rhe~ TorDOmlW
Mu. hllt 'WO'O.ld r~ h.a:ve made up hU Zanko!
rttl_ " " " ' -
.UEBEl.l Thor -wu jUit another •to~J~:. I didn't think •bout it It ill Stan
rod, 'Tm trying to ...ke"'' a - · • :md be p;v< .,. th< plot. ond I.IE:IIElli It wund.o like it rould hm h= 00< ol my .....,._ S.... ;
he Wd,. \Vby doo'tyou write tbe stury?• would rnili up the big: names, li~ '"'Cnlcsms- m: ·~ -tb~J a !
h<lhm """'- H< gn< ""the tid<, .nd !'d writ. the ""'Y·
R'n You '\\>el'e ct:ill'flrit:i.t.8: fnJI ~eripu when you didi'l!.or-? I~ it's ll
tot to be bud 00 R'n Why would Stt4 hue oot wrictm the whole Thor ,tocy, which wu ~
rnn<mbcr oftcr obviouoly the ~-if ooything - - thot,.,. going to odl tho nuga·
o1moot fony 1""- ,;,._ md 1<1 h<'d ~;., b.dup mnko di-.wn by oot j= Di<ko, bot by
You wrote the fir&t . Dna H~ Paul &imrw:l? rve DCTt:t quilt: bun able oo ~tn _clat out. -·
b.Jf do= "'"''rho< -of'"""""' did plot th< 'rho< stoty. .
rtories. LIEBER: He thow:ght .
liEBE.lt! !wrote thu of it. 'J'bt, only thing 1
many? I th01.1ghr: it a.n think of il dllt ht:
wu just two or thn:.e; didn't bow- it ......u
but I""""'"= An~
go;,,., h< thot b;g •
Mtn.l drink I WTote f"~ R..c-mtmb«,.
I, that the slime Wl_f I Sun wun't writint
dia!Qpe for the re~t
II 'Wrote the ochu
Kripm. with 1. full of T.ko of A>t"'"'b;
>Cripe h< only did dw for
cite Ditko nary,
Rli I n...,.kmw tbu. Whenw~bd
Sw:. probt.bly doesn't "Col.ossua.,'" a crn-
remm.ber. I ah.rzyt t:u.«: of stone,. m.~~.
u..,...J JW< brok< wu rne writing from
down the storie..l', · .Sw{t ploc
henU5e tht.t's wh.r. he:
....., doq lor San: RT1 So you and he
were oontinuiog the .
UEBER: Let rru: put method wed in the
it !:hit war. I wouldn't·. m~ter books. The
swear to it. but I have only differeOl':e iJ
-no recolltttion CJf evu dut, whtn Stall did
I <nr; lkbn's RtW.Ih1rf~ J.'1d r;;t.amed .an actilH!l~~
'tc K tby fl,m, {0199<1 M:lr>J1! Cr. .. racters, Inc) writing R story m..t stan writing full sto--
. htd alrady bftr,n pen- rit.s hirn5elf, he
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o;vuuki get Jack or SDIIlWnl; or b.rcr equally good or ~e.a bnur way to do
Diclto on Spikr-M.n.. to break down it.."' B1Jt I nill fe111l that 80-90% of wh...t
t:ht :octory. he J3id wu the ben w:~.y to do it. Now
I'd like to uk you -a.bout a few other
UEBEll: whm he sav that the nrips ~el scriptets·in the £illrly '60c. Thrtt
hod potentitl, bo stmed writing them, wu Bob Bemncin, who wrote as
wJ~hc wu wa<kitlf; with J.d. Then, I "li.oben Bu.rru·; ht.'d bun an ol.dtime
think h~:: vas dotnt so OitJCh th1.t he comics writ:u. Ernie Han: 'WI'OU 11. C(n.lpk
found it w~ bettu-md aho. 'Whrn of stories- ;a ~.E.. Hundey,'" and one
yoU' a 1'f0rk:ingwith a guy 5-k::eJu.i:- lroo M1tl story-the one that intro-
J~ ~ yc:ry r.r~..,-e, -md ~ 00 duced the Bkck: Widow--mt wipt-
,P'I1: a lot of thing:s i.oto it. }lck alvayJ cndiud to "N. Krok, • who I gueu wu
~doing it,. I'd inugioe., to reilly Don Rlco-who bttr used hir teal
some otr:nL Some mim yoo wouldn't lU.me on a. Dr. s~ •tory. Do you
hxte Itt WO£k rh~t way. Tht:y w-tte~'t !mow wby they us-ed. pm1donynu?
:ill pmic.ularly good u it..
LIEBEJl: No. At t:h2x time, I li-ted in
Rll Some l:iked it.~ luted. it. Some Thdo< Ci<y, >nd I would juR drop off
h.wl-lcing ~d "Yie" "f=, my work 2.t the office :rnd. go bad:; ~
bO< thm <her tot ID fu rt. md ~t« I didn't .know what rhe beck wa.c golng
th<y'd II" UJ>'<' if somwm gav< th<m on. I just Vi'W.t w uy one thing -a.bout
A full ~to dnwl St:lrr I was -a.hle to tab the critirum
I..!Er.ER.! Bet Jd W'K so c.restiYr, ~ from him heclwe M W2S ahnp right!
he probably~ it. It was eas:i.u E= a the thinp ho would ""Y did.n'1 ·
for Sun, once he had ~ pidma fed good to me. ln a. 'lfi.Y it W2.!l ilina.t
then, to fit in copy. I rcmoubcr he'd. like 1 wn pb.ying out a Kellt in the
~· "'Oooh. tkre'& ._ lirde 'l'aa, I an
mDTic Satra:m.ou.che. Haw you u:en t:hat
p1lt. word- b.Boon !hue. l'his vould
mOYie?
b< good ..,, wu =r <uy [.., him, RT:. Only when h. fr.rn cune out, when I
md it worW bcturifuJiy. wu :z kJd.. [ hmw ir COini'!S fror11. J. book
:R.T;. Sun ~t a lot of time with me in by R.bd S.h.tini .. -
the mid-'60s "" placiug bdooAs. UEBE.R: S~-m..ru oH whace
becmse it was so importmt. Did he ~bo::Jy j, killed by !he r;re:;test
e= wotk ..-ith 7"" on b.lloon pl=- ....
ocr~mu.n in p""""' p!.yed by Md
l'llWt-wb.tte 00 put the ....~ bal- . Ferrer. Srewm 9r.tn&~ ~ to protet.t
Tomu1 the vi.crim. but he doern't kno-v bow to dud, and Nrrer .iJ lu~ (Dying
LiEBER, Only ...bm I .wtn! d1....IDg the 'Y~ Spik-Mm nrip, wir.h him. Later, Grtngtt becon:w:s -a. swonlnn.a.n, -and they tight to the
p:an lau:r. When I stut • "'Vttk of the: mip, tt·~ not whac to p1lt the doth at clx: end. Bur some--
time. I would dllnk. with
balloons,
come butfine
out.l nuts "''rith
l goilinart ---:::::::::~;;i~~~rvf:f:.~~
no tht lettering. trying to make !:h.: 'W'lXrlJ _ S!m-with ><>n><body who
·knows haw to ...-ritt well
splce oo vork with.
and you don't knoW" how
RT: !>lacing bolloota got"' ro write- ~dl you
ingrUoed in rae that aha a. could've uid it: tb.i:s 'V:I]'l
fn, .....b ol writing for Wd.l, you could bl."re nid.
Suo, I'd be watchi"!; TV it th.u'Wllyf'" And you
md I conldn't hdp im.;- didn't dUnk of """ ol
icing ...-1.= the b.lloom tb05e. At least I a.~
would. go if ~ scrttn with him.- which was a
were a pmd. i~:~ a oomic! lot ~ret, ba:.awc
sometimes yo-v vock
LIEBER, Ob, he....., with poople who tdl
mi f=r ..bmtt the . you thin.ga you don't
billoolllJ .00 tile poinl- ·~with.
ers, Even no..-, it's
•Don't pm: the point- RC'fb.t=bo
er t:b:re-look at it. bud.
there."
UEBEfu l
RT: !.hsolutdy reme-mber Sun
au~ with IW thea- saying years -a.go..
~k. I don't
"· oltor thirtr-
somn:hing yon. are-you don't
In i¥Y p-nticn.br have to write in my style. I don't
~;:m. I nUght ca~about th.tt. jUst make it correct...
think, ~re's ~.nother, Don't m_:z.ke misuke-&-. Just Juw;.- w-bu's
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lO
~acd ~ ~t't dtca1t.." It "'hm't rvm tiut ht wu roolci.ag for . there wu a Dr. Dotlm soory wht:re you ~ and penciled the fim: b~
~ wtiti.o:g. Ju!t don't wriu: badly; he wottld retdt for that.~ I I WT<m md F=k Gi>roi> p<ncilal <he =nd bill. prohohiy b=o,,.
rnuu ny rll;at his critic:,inni in the a.rt:'WOr'k w~ wually cight. They you wt:tt busy on tbe ,..mems.
Did yoll .tiw3.yl: J.ikt. westtrcu in put:ic:~
.
mitbt annoy you !ltlmc:tirnd. but ~ doe.n't tell you to take ram.ething ~~
and m.h it ugl)' wllen you're su~d to hi!! au.king it pretty:

LII!BE& Not p>nicululy, but I d;d lilce rh<m men rhm mper-ha<=,
&.1:: It may not hive Jl'(Ucb lo do in every cas;e with~ n mch, but rlter btc.Wle I fdt the wmern was a real srory;. md the super'"hcroeJ were
all.- io. cornic.:s, you're DOt t..J..kin.K; tboot t.rt;.yoa're ~abOut a cer- more hncifuL ~ westum were more grounded in ~ ~ lestn xnore
tain kind of commercitl trt. groun<kd in =li<y dun • guy who cOOkl fly. [lilted clw; md I ui<d to
!Jl;ll.k:e it :as.red u I could U 1 wue writing fi._l tried to mah it :1. combi~
LIEBElt.l To enhance the nory, he wmu K to be this, he "ftJltS it to be n..OOn of Wltl),rring Htiglm md.Higb Noott if I et~uld, :ll1d 1 wu just
that-and I'D tdl you, I h..n met s.t various plaas artiilt!l: who han girl,: lincitod by rny own .bi!iti<o,
"Oh, hanember.,.odcinc foo- St.n ye= ogo, ond he'd r;rt on !he d"k
:md act it OUt, md Ibis and that, RT: Y011 did <he Hunw> Torrlt
and be ms.de !De 1. betta-ll"ti!!t. • $"erln in the beg:inn.in& clidn't
you>
Rn Th= = other pwpk......,
ramf it, still; but.tD.ost proplc L!EBERr Y..., I did • !no with
did h:d lMy ~Dl • \ot cn.:lt of it. I ohtmr Storm. I'd I"""""'
Maybe it depeodcd oo whctbc:r rhu. S<>m<wb= .w.s
~ w.y,
they 'lllii1f-UJ to ga a lot OtJl crf I ako did Th.r: W•tcheL
it_
Rlll ~my lavorito of
I.JEBE,R: He Jl'LaY ha.'ftl told me lll.l m~Ant-Ma.n norits m.s tbe
tllln"' ~.r ..;~, 1>.ve o1'1.e with ',£'he; ~ Btttk, wba
thought,. "He makes & fntl O"rtt W2S .. Kimt inlet:t llritb EUpl!l'-
thing~ tht :ue:o."l that impor-- hnnwt intdliga= Yoo m..y.
Wit!' Bw:: I li:Yet felt that he tigncd your n.2me '"'Larry
was s:a.y}og somedrint: that 1'rnl Lieber/" except in one c;ue you
incorrect iUld I kn~ httter. He signed '"'L.D. Ur.\w=r.•
•pptcciated wh<n you did
.s~ well, toot tlut':s Lll!BER! "'D" U my ·tmdd.l.e in.iw
.,.,m,. tlDag. &'d "Y• "H"J', tUL Mqhe thare ~·t room to
tlut"11 tood!" .At uty nte. I'm 1. ,;ig:n my full ntme.
little wclo:u .bout Icmng rlt< Rn A bit lou,; Y"" ....ud
$U~ ad r;oi.n& W doi"'! hookup bnt= in T.t.. to
R.n>bid< KiJ. I ""- th.t at tho Am>Mb, .ru..
Ant-M.. be=oe
time I wa.ttted-vbaf,·the
Giant~Mm.. Yoo were writing
oxpr=ion?-alittlo '!*"lor ·
myodf oc ~and I ' '"Y""'Y """"" but you .!oo
W>DtOrieo. Tbit: would ~=·
been '63 or '6-4, ~ you'did
RT: &a... in~ Ki4 h'!Jibick EirL 'Ih::r-e 'W"tn .some:
you could band!• the who!< fitt..pw·W"P ond W.u:hu ..,_
book, you ctm1d .....-rrte it, and m. h wu :l..li if Stzn n::afu.ed the
yoo <Ocld p<nci1 it_ day of the b.ckep"" oqdlng,
.a.nd. d:m ooe ~r [I) aund it
LJEB.i!RJ 1 wun.1t even that· wu 1D """ "T.Je. of the
ambicicn11 to bandlc the whole w~.· who of crn;ne wu J.
thing. Whrt !uoppcttod wh<n I ch:nxu:r from F.1.mastic Fo11r. So
mrted doin:g it 'ri.J, nnm.bet- .n of • ...W.. the """""' b.>ve
ont; the~ wttm't tb.u tb.eume b.ckup ®riel as
\mpottmt, ~>ea.... """' they before, .e:tteft now 'nte Watciler
In the- t;<l5\! of fJon Man, Lil.rry shared credrt fr<!m th~:"shH! (m lr.l~~~ cf Srtspctuc "31)
:stmcd with F.mt.:utic Fow, with .Stun Lee ;md !JOn k;'Jek. {($)!9~9 Mawel Chilla>.:li.><~, 1:;.:.1 is n:ur~ them.
-nx.,· S~M.,;, ond .JI
l.J:EBE1t; I don't ~r
th::at-thc westtt'n!. who c.ued about thnnf
much about them.. 1 did chem.. but 1 don't remember my feelinp :and.
PJ; So you ~e t~ to -work~ lnro t nke corflllr crf obscnri- 2ttiwd~ ~u;r: it. "Wa.! ~n of a ti'ZI'tSitir;n bet"Weda rrry early '1'eara
<yl when I did t.~ lo As~h :~.nd the lib, :md d.oing The Umhide Kid.
LIEBER: I don't knoll' tint I did it deliberatdy. But it came out that JtT: You cvw inked one or two of those ~es.
wzy. None of the~ solr:laH that wdl Yean lm:r.l would meet
someone SOttlt:(im~ 'llrllo ......-ould »Yt lou luwv, 1 read your wtstttru ).JE»Eil: 1 vn$n't vny good ~t it. I didn't like ~8 it.
ond I ~kod thrm. • Whkh ,.., o.M, bee.= nobndy wrot< hn letw1 to RT: One of the stn.~t inh.r.s you h;ad was Matt Fox.
the westerns. But. it w'u llvn}"! very gratifyint; tO hear thtt.
LIEBI!Rr lluui th" omf!l Oh, God, ...! l""' ~..... llwuod tb.t
R'fl 0~D": ia. the lut: '603 I finished off a RnibiM KiJ Mdly you'd ~n· Man Fox is~ OD! of the greats by som~~ people, Rnd his :trt-
cikd md ~ 1-ud to qtiit WT"itinc partway ¢rough the dido~ And Wttk bring.!: ~ buck or twQ. ·
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25
R.'n Yeah, but not in ccnnics:. wu Klstrangt-,..:__hd line jurt deadened e'eytbis:Je:.
!.IF.BE1C I hwd W. >tuff ~xca~ I ~ ...;u. dn~ md I w.. . LIEBER! One of my tr;llts ~ tfu!t I wu reluctmt to ny anything b:ul
rrying ro moke d.. .J...wmg.look" re>l u hurmnly poui>J., md llw! .boot mybody, I>== =<ybody h.. t<> =n a &ring. I wuuldn't oom-
a~ rime. 1 rmnembcr- 1 once Md Don Heck inking me on a fi~J~&--. pkm, no n:ww: who thq' put on. Bur ont ~I wu w~ in the
p:tge w~ and r,~ nying, office pencilirig a. we3ttill, aod Sta.11.-walked. by. He mw my penclr and
"My God, he'• good "m.king my he uid, -n.;. ~ yom pmdlingl' And !.>aid,. •yw,_ • Surr .rud. "Thu is
>tuff look bat<,- than it ;~.... he pntty B"Q<L I've b<.o looking u th. fioishcd nul!, md d= loob <=l-
w;u. Mut Fox-if my ltllff wu, l.it-- bk.,. And he removed rhat inker--it wun't M'<ltt Fox-and pn: me 1
de sriff, he Imde it ev~ sciffer; ~ bmer one.. But I. of my own volirion, wouldn't r;ay a watd ahoot iL
....kit look lihwood ~I
RT: Fat obviously lu.d :a style Uw: just didn't triDS!ue "'1ell inro oomicJ,
.R.T: Fox had ~ m.tdvenising..
H<'d dooe 5m~ pulp lllusrn- LlBUltt Then._ therewu t pttiod.-l don't koov.vhem it wu-wheo I
Uons; evidently be did S<Jrr~t coven just did writing. But rru.ybe thu cme 2kr die wt:rttrnJ, b«.:.~ I lad
fur W<inl T.k>, rh< mogmne <hot lhe: ~ei)CC: oE writing mipts for diffe.rmt utim.
P"b!Uh<d H.P. !.eve=& ond Rob= R'n Wdl. I know in the ~ly •ro.: ~ iud theR my:mry- swri& And
E. Howanl, i~ Co..., bock in yoo ~fort of :a liaison 'WOC.kiag with rome ol the writert1 foe 1. while
the ~ Fox .did color wood cu:tJj be m=. too.
was a rat mist, but hU comic ~
LIEBER; I bcned tllue's DO ~ipt th2r: is so~ ir cm't be ruined by
Thoagh ptl!p 7ans may have c.olle~ted
Ius work, t.J.ny d!l'te$led the ho,wy !Qillebody; 9na 1 was doing 11. weJtern Kl'i.pt, and my a.rti:,Oe inspin.~
wking sly!;;- of rthlH Fell:. These two tiol:i u alw11.)'J waa Ja.ck Kirby. Whm Kirby dnw wm.eth.in(o h.e madt it
p~nels ;;r~:: from S.tm'1g(t T~<ks 11110 as inWesring at you could g«. I h.:ad IodWu chasing the hero. I figured
(l!,lil•;~), the sam~ mu~ wh1ch $aw the this woold be colorful on the titk spluh, thinking the "'1-.y Kirby would
debllt of Dr. Strang~. !l<J!9'9~ Marvel do it. He -.roW.d do :an Iodim, md it wouldn't mutu if it W2.ll the cot-
Chuteclers, !!l~ l rec:t tribe ....
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RT.: HI! wa.m't 1- ~htt, but he wu Uwap du.m~:cir:.

LIEBER: It looked lih C~l B. DeMille., right? Okay, this: mist gin•··
'"" tk hrro n..ling hi.. b--ond k<w= "" hrro >nd me lodiaru he
putt .unoke ud dw.k &om the: hones. Ova tht dmr then: a.re a few
fc:mhc:nlllw', '4llfu:n I rWiud, u I -wru sitting theze racking my bnin.
Ub.t oo script is win-prooL -
R.'L I mnernhtt Sol BrO!kky tdlint me: of :t cue wbr:rr: HI utiK pm-
ci!M ._ bunch of canlryrn..m oa Ilona in t:be bad:.ground, md the inl:e£
pnt • hu~ hiD in berw~n most of them wd the reader. so he only hBi
w i.nk 11 toUple of hone. coming aronod iL But that wuuld: be '!:If frus~
tncing w you :u. wit!'T, tO~~ )'Ollr norris being judged 00 ,rorm-
thiog you dK!n't in=<!. Now, you •lsc dXI <h< f111ished =ipt 1m: roc
vur fim: Iron Man J'tOf'Y Did Y01I.IU.IIle Tooy Sruk, roo?
LIEBER: '11:..:at I r~
R'Il And yon dXI <he fun h=llul of.,.;.., -.!= lu. wu in tk big.
clunky""""" Woo!d you ~ den, •lull wip< on d>ol; 000, from •
plotby5=1
LIEBER: Yea. :£very
one.
J:T: One reuQ£1 rm

curimu. 2bout dm: it
don, thhoogh Don
Hod< il the only pu-
aon ~ u artin: ~
dat 1Jm Iron M.tn
ro::.ry.wme people
~KlmyWdit
mit, -.od 1 just 'WOQ-
dered if that wu all
Don.
LII!I!ER: I don\ kiwoc
lthl.nkt ro«<l Jock
h.vins ~ ro do
widdt, but oBI =Ily
know is that jf my
.11.2.Jri.ewuon~rhenl t·-·
WT'Oll!: it. rm eft: th.t-:re. lr.u:kup Lee. and Ditko rtocy hid: credits.
l.IEBER: When I wa~: doing the nori~ I rem.milier Sun telling m~
".Jxk cw dO &re paget a:day of these mon:s:ter•nocy pencifs ... no) sf;(
P'P ad~. When he does a wenern, he can only do five a fhy, becaus-e
of thr. sunbeh. .. The gunbela: slowed him dawn or wbw:v~.
R'li: N01: tTm the ho~?The gunbelu? Anywty, ial%4 or'G51
R1i Somethnel yam

n2mc,~'tbeoua
•=r· Then, alt<r , ;
-····
the saff stuttd. to i..nt.nue. Pint Sol ame on mff u production
LIEBER: When you started there, where~ we? On 57th Street?

RT: It WitS on Mad~n Avenue_
or thne- m>riet in~ UEBER: M.adisoo Avmue, neu die b:mk on 57lh SlrteL Okay. When
..n.s, the aeditt would I ~tatted, we wue 1. coupk of blocks up, C!fl 60th S~ That's the
sndually ""' o-eeping plac.t wheu h.ud thtt~ wn no rqom, when Sun worked in this iittle
in, md your nune olmva. .
..ould be 00 the storier,
ro f2Ill would son of RT: M.agnine Maru.&emmt wu Uw:.ys moving; Rround, I remero.btt
work bd from that. ~ne joking that the CO(nplloy moved up md down U..dison
Sa:k then, San didn't Avenue, d~ing on how moch wallcing Mar-cin Goodmln'i doctor
sign Ul the noriu, tokl. him lo do. Wilen I trrived in '65, San tu.d ~a nice big off1ee tb.at
cither. Thm'.d be iuoM wok up at bsr: half the spxe ®t wu ti"~ over ro Marvcl. Did you
with roper-hac norie:s enr consider inklog othu :u-r.irn?
ap froot, but o_nly the
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LIEBER! Th.t wu 1 'i'ery ru:ky

bmintn. Ma~ !shouldn't go
iJltO it.
RT! I don't kOOlV lD1lcb a.bout it.
But Aclu was ctttal:nly p.~ying
gr!llt nteJ., because Goodm1n
wmted. to get everybody a_wa y
Letters pcge head~nuJeaturh:g new colorccrruc~ editor Latty Lieber. from Mlr'tel d he could. I guen.
: . I'm not ~king yau to biid-mourh
LIEBI!R: I i..hd , Pot< o! Kilby once, io • book ..yWy. Lury. b=uoc Aclu wu 'job like "'"Ythlng <b<. 1 do
which htd d.i.ffereru feature pagn, pu:tzles tnd $Q IttDember that Sun ~ned the bet clut you CJ.lne in and told him
fon!L I did inlr. Y=t •go. whoa !.umd ... I'm going 'w.y h>ck, b<f""' you'd~ m editing job u Atlu, b«:runr you h,cw thae w-ere bad
1mul in the ~ in. '51. It 'N'U TasK tbt T:qirt. I.dUn\:. As .i m mer Eeefittts bent-em Sttn U~d Goodm~~.n a.t that ~~
o! faa. around W... I did """" =><go inlcin~ Mi!liz u,, Mo<hi or
T~ or ~lib tht fort while. I wa~~ one:r "fiT confident UEBER: I tnld him. Th<relwl b= • ]><!riod wbm: 1 <ouldn't got wy
,bout my inkiny. I"" ~"']> tpillin~ tho inlr. butd<. I only mmd iak· -.rodt at Ma:tvel. and I Md to go to NA.ciomd. And Natiooal-,ouldu't
.inc "for real" when I nuted doing the S{Hda---MtZ;tJ nrip some yeats a.go. gi~ mr: work beau~ rhy were minrumcl ••••
RT~ Steve Dir.ko ldt a.t'otmd the e.D:d of '65, beginning cl 'U. Yoo W«fl liTr. It'& amazint you couldn't get mort: >rork. toing: at Muvd.
sooo workhlgon tM.Am.zbtgSpi.tlrr-MAn AnnU4L
LIEBElt! lr wun't ~ch a nice thing. but I won't co into' it.. I don't wmt
UEBER!: I ~-doing a~ of mnruh of Syitkr-Mm.. Htre's ll ro go inrn til the Arla. thing. ex.::ept ro tell you this, whid1 w>u ;~bane
""'1' Tho ""Y Ditko elm. didn't 'l'pW ro mo. I tbou!hr hU >tuff "" fw=; When I wen~ Mmi.A put out two kinds of boob. He w:u-
"tiT niff, yo~:~ know w~_l mu.nJ 1 did like tk -.ny John Romita drew, putril.g out c.olor" comri'. l.l'ld. he wu: ilio going ttl put our bb.ck:k-
whidl ~'very pretty and B~ and so on with t:.br: figu:ru. So at thu wbite comics like WJ.l'Ttn ·md M21"Tel. Na-N1 I k.Dew nothint; UJout
time I did rt.lot of my dznring in t:be ~ ;md 1 wu duwing u~ black-&-wbiu corniu, right? My on1y Uperimce w~ in the color
John's; direction. Do you :ronell'lhtt those <hys:? People would c.'ml.rnent ~cs. And Jdl R.oria c;;a.me from War.ren. a.nd be: knt:W nothing 2hom
tbout it. I lhink-my mowing John tv'OJ' piuure: I W'il$ dnwing.
Rli John vay quir.k!y heoome ;a soct of infurm..l._ ns:imm IU't d~Rctor to
s=.
LIEBERl So I grt ,JJ cltro.gb with • Spidc-M"" ""'1' .00 I bring it in.
awl Stan loolu &tit and laytt. ~like iL Ir's got clw.nice u;f:y fed that
Ditko had!• So, no mana what J dn-w, r.hae wu 1lot of fnwr.ni.on. I
wu trying to get nny from it. bot I cot~kln't. Dicloo ia his Cl"a'l'' way U
~ yery goo<. but I j= fdt it.....,., tho lind of i!n.~ >w.ot«f
!0~ .
ftT: & gOod u Ditko wu a.nd is-illd J'Vt: bc:m .3. bis hD. of bit $lnce
IW: CqJ~ A rom dtys .It Charlton -within s.U- montlu ~ Rom ita ,,
l=mo the utin.~M"" fim1ly pWtdF;ml4<ci< Fostri.o clo.. It '
had bun gndudy creeping up in 3ala, ;md [t might b.•e 'berome 11
tmder Ditko, but tt wu o~ #2 unril. Ron:Uu. rook it oTtt. H~ had that
gcAdcn touch. Earac:r, when bed a ken oYtt D.ueckvil from Wally
Wood, is h.d WmntJr .bot up ro bo MMW'• bat <dkr in P"""'''S"
t.eriTlii.Johndidn,tltue .-.much ann.rty:lc: by the'6Ck u ~he'd
"=doing JU. lulf-IGmy. lulf·Coni!f G.f>""" """'*";,the '""-that
nyle: h.d. $0rt ofha:o, washed out ci him doing lov~ comics d DC-bu~
b, dr.... du.rn•ticdy, he rold • put stmy, wd he did pmty pwpk
And tho ...don ....Jiy =pond«! OJ th.<
UEJI;ER: Yt;t, he did ~~ peoplt, be told a $tory, ;md 2iso hr, CQU}d
work. .n~ Stan n:ry welL He k.n..:w- whar: Stm w;mted.lie ~ vtry
good. Arid he wuiruoy uta. fixing up ~<rybody ~
ll'l! By the .my 'roo, a!"""'" Mmin Goodmm lurl oold Mnwl, an<l
in '74 be. rurted bU own comperint: lioe_ I know you and Sun wen
reltt:ed to Goodma.n br roarrH.ge. ·so of CO'U!le you'd known him fu«-v-
tt._ How did you l:(lfJ)C to work for- Goodman u his new comptny?
Ul'l!EK! I wu wndtlng foe Man.d, bUt I hed diffirulty "'""'"""got·

ting work. It wun't :a. very e:uy period. They metled super-bero n:prUn
co~r~. and I could do than !OmeliW'h.at in Kirby's nyk And then
Martin G:oodma.n went in1o btuiness.
RTt Ritht- Sc-othNrd, .a.lr:.!l... Atlu. You were one of two ediron thc.re ...
}'Qil tnd Jeff Rov!n.
A1las rl«ffnhely d!d ;.~ttract -some top t<'!lc:nt fori) bdd tim~;, among ~\'!e.m
Juth~ Goodwin at'ld Al.::x Totb. {®1199 A1!as t;Om!CS:.]
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•
~lor couUa. And Martin uDfonuru.tely put Jeff in durge. of all me. Chip?" Now, I ga off the phooe; the hun't told me wh.tt it'J about, but
rM ia eh.tr~ of the bkd:-&:~white boob.
oolm col'tlia, utd put 1 figu~ "'I bet rh.i, l'll(Ul$ they're 1oiog out of bminrsJ.• So I start get-
·~ very nervotJ.J, 1.nd [ &0 ~ io the jury hox, :ux:l a po~ iJ ~
R'U 'flnt .u :1. bacltWMd app;rou:h.. tifyin~ 1nd u he rtalt4 talkin(. rm so yanld.y about going out of buli-
UEBER! h W2..li: ~ unlormn11U- thing. and bukally 'Wiu.t haf,.pmbd ~ nesJ th.t I think I'rn &cine: to acram. I jusc 1-e:mt:mbtt being ther~
.rfw: Jeff~> boob dJdn't tum 0\lt M wdl, thlnkinr;:. ~ don't want to ~ :lind cause • mis-
nU.I." And littrt" tllOUgb,. 1 wu. right. Whee I went
R'D :But th.e:re S"'Ute wen a lot of them I baclt there to ott Chip, he nid Aclu..,.. ~oing
out of busineu..
Lil'JliDl: Yu. And, "you wd,
MWn bl"' P'Y high~ KJ', Maybe if they lwl just 00.., [.,.tid" and
ntq, bec=u ~nobody nurml them ..long. But they ttie:l to e:nltt" the
would work for a. ll;e'W tad unpto"n:Q fidd with rhiny, fony book.t: rigD.t 11W*:f1 ur.d U
''"npa.ay. a result th~ cwldn't-
R.ll Yoo i«unr, Chip [M..,;. UEBE:R! lt wu J:l'lOte dan th2t. Pot imtmce.,
G~'s-. ..bo bd lmqly 1>«n Jdf put oat ou.a iscut ~had • ~ dull
M.-h p.bli<bn-] offi=!""' • job at · CUTer. tD. gny. A zombie c::on»nt out of the
Atbo .. '" oll= I bl ootbint; •goinot W6ttr. AAd whtn it wu rotntioued to him
)off R..U.. but I jUJt bad •f..Jinr th.tto t:N.t t!tH ~.dull rovtt', hit IUICU1ing wu,
mp intc tho middle o! thu aiructim -nat'c 'l'fhy if1l sund out, becrute .U the
would be mare trOOble tbm it could poui- boob = bti &brly C<>loml ;, tho """'
bly be worth-OTtnin theu.lik.ty . . - :and if you have oae in gnty, it"R rund
that Adu 'IVai: going to la.rt ~ than,• out." It didn't vork out tb.t way,
y=<ctwo.
I.lEBU!" didn't,..,{,""' too wdl, aDd Jeff

f>nally t.h ~ "'~ ood I !WI tn
.W . - oil his >cob. At this paiur. m..u- Lll!l!ER> Whu hoppmed ...., MArtin
Uld dtip gan me lix llX>ntb&' sen:r-
"" btd, ood I tOOl w do what I oould. Go< of
the tbinga I bid co d1:l ""*' to cut ntet md k:l """' pay. I,_ trying othu t!Uop; I
poop!< tboywtn going to mob lao-·
which -waJ uot an arNh!e position. I b.d one
wu trying to make ur • ~
..
-;;;;;;:::~==-::.mp, ud mu a vbik, Stm o!f..od
guy; who'• prolr.obly gone by..,.,._,
oK. I:I'Y• ~ me 11. job as ediror- of >.b:vd'1
Brhlslo d -I ........WC,.
bnt he had ' ~ problnn, ood- oloo •
gmtrolleoto. Wt"" prern.. td;.,r bad
giTm- "'poop!<. Ho'd
1m Gm.t oombit>uioo. ur.~~u~au.·~..tK~
bo'd tdl him, "You',. gotting •
UE11E1U And ho w.o 1oing \" """"' ;, ond I had blue do(. 7or ·:a yeJzyw- dOL" Can
10 ttl! him thtwe wuen·,
going to~ him 'lr'OJki Y"" im2gioo ho.v l'nnk - = ! to
h: 'tr.ll quiw "!~:But in the~ itwu
its> thu MWn lott too aut<h """"'Y· n.:.. ,... getting .. tied Still, it W2t: " nice
.kpanrnon<, aod F. tho p«>pi< one!
r
nothins I <D<Ild do to b..lp oot.l ,...'i a ~ names I b:tvm't thought of in yean.
too mtJCb W'U Jon, and 50 ~ g;otft it aU up, Dulfy... l
='!" for s..m.l (. Plqboy imit.<ticn) aod •
ooupi< oE """,..;.., md. Chip would """'""'' R1l Duffy Voh!.nd. And D•vo Knlc
wltb II>='
LIEBERt Yes.. Mih Etposito c:une in
Itl1 Any otbulmny nori<O roo""' ,.u me ooasionally, and Danny Fing<toth.
furprintl And Bob BadU.,Ity. They b.cuno my
ISS:isunts. l'he Only thing in that depart-
LIEBER: rtl tell you ooe beuUH it'• onJr ment we did thD.t wu original wat
aboot..., N<ar the md, A!ho Wu ouybe ~ BritAA B1JSC:Ul:lll drew it at firn.,
~to go - of busn-,·ond I got alW :auJ Tom P:ahnei inked it. And during dut
OD jury 4ur:y. M du.t tim., r used ro sometime,. in ~ lur. 70J- tbu:'s wllen Sta.a hu:l
.;.,.. got m.iety ""'cla, ood I wed to ..U StiJ.n-Mm comi out in the new-s~
v.liwn to pt<>OO< the mm.
s. when r b.d
to go down 10 the jury, I colltd up tho RTt So how wu it r.ou
"ennollr wound
"'""!'"'!'and I rod, • Aio.,. .ullin bwi- up~ tho Spidn--M"" «ripl
neul• And tho =rotary' rod, .I don't
knowt OUp harn't ondt: up his mnd yet.~ l1EB£R, 'Old~ ovon when John Romita did
oc "Mr. Goodm:m b.ain't made. up w
mind yer; jmt mp mtooch •ith it, I wu hdping :a. little co~ Jim
w and yoo1l Hnd oot. .. Shooter_romttimes did brukdowm for St2.n £01' ~ ~ and :after Jim.
1 did some, ~ho. r sat m on Story con£~ ~John md Staa.
So here 1m going-i.r's like a Woody A1ltn tbing-rm going oc jury
RT: Lu~ !:here 'Jill Pred ~:mel diffttcN people. ...
dm:y,l'm ll¢n'QW to begin with. an:d rm trying tn keep calm, ind. dur-
ing 1. break on the jury I a.ll up and the settetary &:ays, -TOlllorrO'W LIEBER: Kida. right. In the euiy d.1ys. there 'WU :al.so a HN/k strip.
mo:rnin& ~re you ~ on jW.,. duty, or ~,ill you ~top up and sr:e
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clJ~ telC'visJou, ~UM 1 didr{t ~t to

duptic~tc: anything. I...utt oo,l dJd a ro=~ry
do.....-n South wirh ~ 'tll"en"Wolf md The Hulk
dta:tw~i~g.
And mm fln.Jly ilio rnip di<d. I cemom-

bc- ~ wu 11 point wh.ue. they vnntcd roe
ID pmci1 ili<S~M- &.;~ ... >nd I <riod.
bllt I .....-un't f.m: ~gh, md I '~ve it up.
Then [ W;1S doing Spidn-M~ Sunday pages
for a while, ~ Ut~ th.st rto~ s~ left
for Californi:t,. .and Jim Sboorer ';fU rhue....
RT: He became edito!'-in~clrief at the v~
..,.; o£77.
L1EB£1tt I wu Ia~ a vrry ~ ~ .

I>= h. w=M •mod of dnrwing that
wu difficult for me tQ do.. Ym~. know. dif-
fc:rent artirts tdJ l:tori~ mdi:lft.ttnt ways.
M~ I wu P'"'l' gpod with do.eups. l WQn"t
good if you gav~ nu a acenc with forty
poop!<;, it, b;g W.p ~~would
mlle ill iu.ce.raring 11nd wcmdtrful If I did
.it.. it might look a. little duJ.. Yfi Jim wanted
mo<e lcind. of ahou, full"-- h ,.... difli-
cul~, md I wu dcrw, •nd l•tru.Rlm with it,
left, John RomitJ. wus. t'1e fl'St ;ortisf of tne

Sp deo•·ilian da1!t sirm Ht·c <He the- fir~t
tf1rN" :1Mii~~ ;tcm Jat!uary 3"5, 1?77·
liDI'f99 MIHYC] ChiHiJt'fers, Inc]
Ill\ lligl<. lwu psn of tint p<riod. .00.

ci)IUI;ll tit- BRhuitm mrt:eti in ~
~u the S2fJlt' time u Spi.dn--M.:n :211.d !'
Hrdl, :md a litde befoce HofJJttrd rhe
Duck. I have a oomplt'te ~llectioo of the
...ly .Wiit. of >ll lonr <trips. I O>ld ilio
Do: Moina sycd:icne I needed them. for·
·~·
LIF.liFJI, I mn=ber doirtg Tb< H iJ1.,
witb PniDt Garoi. inkio~.l r=II ,.., hu!
probkms beome Funk was ltte, tnd we-
tried olha inkw: oD it,. :md nuybe I wu
late d.oi~ it. And then there wu a. point
whtte it. Vo"U11't selling that will, or Stto
didn~t wint w bodJ.er with i;. and h~ fe:t
me write it.
So I nuted writing aod dnwing it, tnd

Pnmk wu inking it ag,Un. I cnjQyut tlm
~ much. I r«mt:m.ber doing a sto.ry
~bout .l bo:rer and 1M Hulk, u.d I WI$
~ iruplrni by what v.<~~ on te:kvisiOO,
with Bill Bi:r:by. I ~r- going out
with a e;s,mtf;l, getting photognpht to tty
ro mae Ute: strip Jook UJthll!ru:ic. They had
j'llrt come out with VCR.I then, and I
wwld ~ my late wif~. befure we were
married (I gum: it ~b t:l.pe it form~ off
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14 of 15
'P"YPY'M; 1Q odot-•mti ~ l'!j rnr;

. .
Yorkshire: ~r.
Stan gives me full

~ripts, which tell me
·euccly what to do. Stan i.s
vlry ~ <t vi=k.
tbinking "hat would look
p;oo<i I'm only g~d <h<t
Peter P..rka or Spida-
M2n only hn t:wro :mru.,
h=mt if holad """"'
StaD .....-ould hne 5~:nn.e-
and then whu b:apprn~ wu th~t Frd Kih., 'IIFho hwi bten doinr; thins f.,., him to do witlt
e-rtty ann every d.J.yl
Spider-Mn at this point. retired. md Stan rried samebody el~ out oo
it.. •. n.n Barry, I think ..• .mel it didn't wad our hen.reen him ttd Sun. RT: Yeah. When. St:1n tlid give Sp:i.cky four am. aiiJtt in rbe lut p.1Dt'l ol
There v.u: a cooffict.. Sbn w1l'lll':d. rru,, &rry ~ that. ... Spi.Jtr.Muz 1100, he turned #101 o•er to me arx:l I lad w write ~
R'T: B:my }wl clone PUsh Grmlim for yeus, 50 he probltbly 1lf'Un't tOO issua'! So I know wlm: you mem. If Pettr b.vJ .re<nn.l J.rllll, Stto. woold
used tn working: for a_ writa': "To "Wdl, ok kft hmd ;, d<>ng clu., ud ok right lwld ;, doiDg
~haL •.. "
l.lf.BER: And .ro Stan uked me,. or l2S"Iwl. him_. W.yv;'2)', we $poh
2.bc:Rtt it.-. "Do you wutt to oy it?" And I
,.Jd oby. And dm tim< I smclc .,;m h, md I
wu ab.le tD do i:t.. l'Te ~ doing rhe d~
now for-... it'll be r:b.in=:J yen1-.
'RT: Thar', probably :t: rttard far you!
l...IE.BE1W his! rve ~eo d:nwing Spid"-Mtm
lo- d t . n - dO<-
Rl! How did you JNru(\1! to co~ to t.e:trru:
witb tDI1liot om: s.i:l; dailiet ll week? 'l'1m may
not round .lik.e a lot to some prop~ but .it
n:illy js,
IJEIII!R, I did """ I><=< than lh.< b=uoo
. aftu :t: whi.k 1: ~ to do my D"m inking. I
,..,.., ...Uy thu ap<ri<nc..l .. "' inlw; bvc
I 'Wm'IUd to do it beaU$e I £dt ~ ooly I
,ooJd n'P ''"""I put mmo p=ii<. 1bero
ue cen.a.in inkcn; who 'W'Cinld bvt: ~
what I ik-w, but 1 wasn-'t S"etting that nod of
i:nki.os· I did ~for a few yeus, hut it'"-'
""7 hml r d rod up sinins up all wghdni<-
ing it oot. :md I "W:ll ilinys lln.id, bee2ut:e
you'ye got that dudline there from the -ru-
dia.t~ So finally m.y Wd, "No, 1«'• h.v•
><>md>odr d., • md I 'W'od~ tb'Y ni<l,
·Wh~ you gilt C21Jihr up, Larry, you Clill do
it .gain." Well, Urry 1m neYB" g:ottm rhu f.u
,he.dJ
K1': B11t Sti!J. "that's a pretty gocd :uiioum ro

do ....._ .
."""1
UEB~ Yoo lc.now, people wiD sa.y to ~
"How many houn do }'Oil- put in to work
tlut way 1" A yeu and a half ago, my wiR:
died. I wu .nurricd for almcst sev~
yean. And since WALt', bem t bit hm:lu
for me, getting: the work out. I w~ alone
here in the ~mment, e:Q:cpt for my
for a tfme in ibe lat<t 'Bos/ea:ly '9os laHy not

only pen~,;1!ed but even mk~d 1he spui€r~ttf~n
dallu~s.Frc-m tQp: Ve~:cmb~r ~$. 1983; MlV zt.
1'}8'1> May 11, 1990; and F~brttary 1, $?1.101,_,9
M:uvd Char.Jders, Inc.)
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15 of 15
:tround wilh 11. wry unth-not ju:r ;m ord.inuy •mile. bllt s. rUry smik: .. wu just betm:.
:uuf Muy Jane, who loo\a.11.t.. .. " But ol. ~we've onJ:p r;:ot one pic:
ror~e dut I am dnw in my one ptnel. · And I had to face things I lwln't fued u an an:W. in thou ytUS. I'ye
~en studyif1t. I took up Anatomy, I rricd. ro r;n.in tnysdf to 5ce dm.e-
R'n Ar lt::~n you've got lh.nt p~ 11 dry! M.ry Worth a few yw-s "&0 climemionilly, w•tch I h..dn't been very good a My connruc:cion I feh
w nvo. and now then'' .n.othin!; in the smries at JU!
W'e11t wun,t Yuy "tood., tnd .so o~ rnd a:o on. I w-u looling 11t W work a1
other :arti.ns, not only Bon:e:ma, but Kirby md. Gi1 Kane and thU one
UEBER.: I like the stories, and it't ch.nengint--l'm jl.l$t gluJ it keeps and that one ... and it'.i ~ a corunm pi'OCtU ollwn.int. 'Whic:h JnAyb-e
go-in~ JO I luve work. . is OJK reuon I can~ doiog it. II rukc.t; it lnt:erestin'- I kap tryiJlt
new m~ :and new this- and new tlw:t:.. •. to o-y to get bettu. And
ItT: Sf!irkt--M~ttt hu been ~foe aboat twenty ya.rs now.11K}r
should do moce co~ectionl of the strip. It's ant: of me r~ 8UCC5S sto- roarrwhlle I've sem rh-c whole fidei change,. two new gentntiom from
ri¢Q aniontl, dramatic comic strips in recelt yem.. They trkd bringing <b. peoplo tlu< I know.
bu:k T6TT)' .and tbe Pir.aa ..• Zorro, ... TATUJ:. ... :md II01lC of them ~allr h's interesting. btt:twe: wbM I look a:t l<m)C of rhe CUlTCDt ..n,.lhe
WOTk<d, b'f IOmeh..., Spi<kr-M.n dod Do you dUnk i~• dw-xta-s don't look. like htiD'WU to IDL. The &cu look trlQft like
pudy bocruoe of d.. emphuis on P= Puko'•lif<. lhsigm ci f:tcu drm hca.. Yet, if yoo take a page by the mw artitn
"-"" ol"" oup«-h=io? tnd put it up tpinat the old uticl:!, the new page loob a. lot
LIEI!EL M<ybe .,_ Suo .lou put a lor of dm men -al.in l.!ld lnre:rening, i.o .. wa:r~ and the old pt-ge }bob
dull :tnd old~Whicmed. To me, K doer, l.f my rate. So it's an
in th..-~ Th<y'tt alway• t4/Jring """"Spidtt--
Msn, b-ot tMtt ·~periods when: th.ere's a Jot inurnrins thing; !h. wbol. wend hu <hongod, ond I "Y•
of Peta Parker. N. a nu.tttt of fu;r. one of the WWh.aJ km I ltill dnwi.ng for? Wh1t m1 [ tiJinc to leunf"
"""">bout"" ottip thu maku it ,littk
hud ~ betlu>< th='• Potu Puka md M...y
It':~: ,;t]l p:used me. }['"J; all gone. ...
lm Come on, Ltrry. yore can't end on rb.tt note! Doing
Ja:n,e. a!ld ro he's -nitin~ it lli a. ro~ "Dmething iVCCe!Eifully for thirteen yean. y-ou mun hne
ruip ... yo• know, clx pretty gi,-~ w good- !=nod romething.
. loolci.o~ go.y .... and then it t.b.ifts to the.~
and Spider-Man. It'$ not jwt a roper-he:ro LIEBE.R..z Let'11 put it thi. ...,.y:
Now, when Snn uks
ruip, iU1d it's 001: jtut a rorn:mcc strip. lt'a me- to dnw :50mcthirtg nc'IIP", [don't ~:au nervous. I
both_ • 'UKd tony, •ob my GOO. how do I drnr this! The guy
RT: h mult have the .z:Wrt tomb.i:urion ro }un-
;, on the wall, ODd ho'• doint; thi:, and he'J tlw, md do"<
b.'• =rying Mvy J- ond. .. how tho hdl do you. . .1"
kept ~for mon= than two decades. And oowi1'a ?I do i'l:l rl figure it out!•
LIEBElt: l think so.. And I try to gi...-e it ~tr I 1m Good fur you!
"""md I'll tdl yw why-1'-.e bnxd while I'><
bec::n doing it. Goint: back to when I worked for Lll!BEII.I So, I f..! mon:<OU!id<oc Also, I 1..!
- Shooter, and he wmtrd full seeno-thnforud me clot.tr to Stan ainOe l'n: been doing Spidc-
to try to gro-.;o u ..n ....bst. It 'Yo'DI:r"t a quescion Md than I "WaS ·bctore. in a wty.
olwhet:hcr 1 approw:d of it, o.- .dido't WIUclt io good. b=me doing a
apprmoe of .it:j I 1ud to do lt. And 1 had tb strip, you don't~ much feed-
go lxck .M re-learn pcnpeaive. Then. bock. H I 11« t !on l=.r, IWf
becu.e I wu sJo,..; I Wd, Tn. gt¢ ro - the tima tbay're j mt uking
get W... wirb thi:," "'htther I wu for a 11ketd:J. or an Ofitind
doint; lb. H.O."' S~M= I daily or a rignattJtG.
,.;,!, "H""' <b. hdl do I get fona?"
And OM day John Bnstttnt g:an i \ But St>.a iqhe ocly
lecttJJ"e • Marvd. Comics on "How
to Draw Fll!L"' my who
·\ one and iflooks
:taff,.ully I 00 "
ooything good, he
Rn He .twuld """'" •ppretiaies it. He'll
UEBEl<> So I took now_ and john
bad o w!w!e bw.ch of o<cp<. L,..,. I
.\ ~';';:.:;.~say,
. must ve
7
been hard,"'
e\'~ went ont: to hn hous~t, uld bt _or: he'll ny. "Gee,
5h.owed rn..e. Wdl, l ~'l: koow if it , ihu'sa good expreo-
hdped rDC. k)·draw fwrr. but it -:.- · !ioi:l, you'-ve got OD
hdped rne ro dra..., bam; and to ::;ec U..t pi; you ""!ht
..nut mi;tales 1 wu mUint. John . "' he di=tinj;
uid, -rhi.! isn't bl>w you dnw- mO'rio, ... or 'ome-
tbi! is how you drnr- /4"" There \ <bing like ruL [r,
wu tlot in the proce$3' lh:at hdp«< been & nice w-orhnt
me to draw- with more-~ it 1 <dationship
t.l"r}' lm-lm in a photo app-arently
I .n th= 1'<"·
\~
from f 11! '7es, a dect~dl! when iM
'I.ritH 31sc btc<!me edltor·m·c:fml"f
of the she>rt!1H.:d A1!as/Seabeard
e;om1cs lme.
PH_P00005:>96
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EXHIBIT 30
JA692
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Page
1'hie et01'7 ia told in 2 chapt~a. Chapter one is 6 ~a lc~. Ch:lv~C:" 2 if; 5 pecos. ~
/
~ .
!here ere fcur I2&1D ch3.ractenu 1) REEl;)BIC!!Al11'1S. (It-. Fo..ctO!ltio) lb ie JCUD:l, henrlecmo '
sciontiot. Ls~ of t.ho tour. Inve::..t::. a
··apace ship to go to M.ars. Ho~a to be
tinit man to reach Hara. · ·.
.2) SUSAN. S'roE!. (Invisible Girl) ~ £s Haod'tLSfrl friend.
, :. · · · Shs'o-an. ~ctro~. 13::[!::.-.t.irul, gle::orous.
3)· BEll GRIMM. (Tho 'r~) &n is ~ ~~ bwtieh SU7•
Be's a pilot. He tells for Susan also.
4) Jomnvr S'l"'mt. (H'WW1 Torch) He io SWU!tl's Jrl.d brother.
A teen-osor• 17 Jeara old. ~ school
star athlete.
Stc.ey might open up with a meeting ·or fantastic Four. Aa meeting etarts, caption tells
reader that. w will so 'bae!: a fev weks to see bow it all began ••••
Reef! Richa.rda tells Suaan ud her brother Jo!:m:oJ tbs.t b1s space ship is !inall.J completed.
Be hopes to be first IIBil to Hare. But he 2Weds ~ pilot. t'he7 hire Ben Grirm::l. Ben 1e ·huge,
sur~ o.nple~t gq uha doesn•t -.nt ~ psrt ~ot proj,~ct U!'J.til hs ssaa su.eao. He falle fez
S11Sa!lt and. eha ~.o to coax him into l'Jiloti:lg ehip. Ben ia cra,..km:'jtu:!; pil.ot 1 e:-tt::lr
hcl:l"o.. bo.Gt pilot am 1 eblo •.
Aa th4t lour e.."'D about to besin fligbt, they ere varnad again:lt it ~authorities. ~old that ~·
110 cnoJQt kr::n::a vtat effect ce!::Z:ie ra'31J v:Ul h:lvo on lmman bodies sc taz- ~..1t ill &pace. But· . .',i
. rthel decida to so ~· by tear tl:zat if the7 dcn't go, -&ada =-1' beat us to it.
(~: At'~ nto tha Cc;::;amists IU'O ~sresdllz in sp:u:e, IIL!lybo w better ICE!ke this ai, ) • ~
·.. ·.....: \ fUsht.to the-~. inotead'OI.:"~ to Mars;··becauso by 'tho time this mas goes on·· .
sale, tho" t:ilt~daz:ts WJJq have ~-MADE a night to MareS) --~~
So, vit.bcut cl~e f'i'= the authorities, in tho ·dead of nieht, thq take o~f for tho
~~~~u~w~~~~· · ·
• !"'f.
In a-~ce, on ·~·to tlw stars, POOOi'i ~ a%'0 bc:borded b:; cocic ra:1a which penetrate .
~
the ship and vbich affect ell tour ot ths cccup:lllts. The7 can't ecntinue the trip- h:lve to
turn back- are luclq to l.and alift. B:lt the7. are all different J'JOv- the7 sensa it- al•
though ther don't yot quite knew HO\i theJ've. ~d.
SuddeDl7, they can't .see SUS3%11 &It the7 lmcw ehG'e tbero~ They can HE.UZ her. They rea.lize
she b.&! OOC:J~A invl..sible. J:bs -e:-.D cct be{,i"folidV r...aible again. tater, s!:e will l:nq a mask with
a f~ l!hG the =~ eho had ud eho rill have to war that ~t e•vh:e.A:J in order to be
eeen.. Her cl.othea of CO'tlrSO can bo e.eol'l o so it is c:lly her flesh th:lt is i.nviGible. When w
tate~ her clotllos off, C9 •a =;pletely iJ:lv!..ai'blo. (I hope th!e 11:011 • t cs::o to c~ in ert :
"'rk. Bottor tall: to me about .:Lt, ~ Jeek- maybe vo•u ch.wlge th1e ~.....m.ic::k ~~\1hat).
. ' '
As tor Jc~, sus:m•s brother, ~~ b gets e:cited, ho bu.rstc itlto fla!:lo. &e:=~s a
RU!Uin Torch, 4Uld caa a,-, ao hie bed:' gots lighter than e.ir. roT dooen 11 t laDt for
5 mimltee. At end of tin minutee, his f'l.Bme goca cut and -hG becomes no~ aga1n, untU he ,..
=.ro
than
pta e:c1tcd again. t=.t ca!1 1 t tl~~e on fer e.t lea.ct S mimltes after hS'a gotten be.ck to ~-
~. Cc:::!e3 Ac:=...:!etic:l told r:3 !'!3 ~ nove:' -bll...""tl ~:lO tdth tl.ai:S, to te.::r:~ c~ a..Jm · :.
l'Opoe, c!ooro, otoo~Ve:- peoplo. And, ho eamJOt toss t~~ a.c tho old H~ Tc:reh ~-.
ceu:td. His Mszest ~t is that ho c:m ~. · ..)--,-~;..
MARVEL0014587
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·GOPIED FROMTHEAMERICAN~C~~. ..ot.·v.~a;9:1fis·!lifA~MA'{BE ·
RESTRICTED BY UNITED STATBS CIJlt~LAW\Jr"~tiim~~~BTirlN - •
. COPYRIGHT. APPROVAL PRIOR TO
. QUOTATION. OR
. PUBLICATION.
. ·
Tb.cy tlli.n!t ~ed Riebardo, the p1lct, ·i.e ~f.foctocl by cc:;:JiC rayc, ru:1 h.o eoe:.::s ce.n:.:::ll .......
UNTIL ha trieo to reach ta: so::otbi.ng. Then thoy reaO~zo llio c.rQ hno STRETCliED toward +~
thing ~ reached for. After a \!QUo tho7 rea.llzo Reed • s body has becot:Io like ROBBER. Hl )
can gst -~, eloDo~ted, ~hil'l8 that you can do tsith rubber. He can aqueoze thru· key•
holes, oto. Ot ccurso, tho core atretchod-cut he sot::J 0 tho wcol:or he gots- b"..lt the point
. remain:J that ho can twist and strotc~ his body into llli:Joot ~ shapo. (Eo can even alter
the appearance of his face to make h..ir:soll look like someo.no else) Blii' it is quite pain-
fl!,_ to do ell this, so he can only mai!ltcrht the atnmgo ~h~peo tor a ~ery .5hc.r\ period of
tili:a until tho pa:ln gets to bo unbcaroble e . . ... '
Fimllly, Ben Grimm stopa out of the shadows. 'l'he7 all gasp-- his body has changed 1n tha ·
most grotesque 'fla1 ot all. Ho 's. sort of shapeless- bB 's become a THING. And, he's grown
more f'antc.aticall.7 povcrful than any other living thing. no is stronger than en elephant.
Btrl, ho is so heaTJ thnt he moves vecy elovly•- he's ver; ponderous, and tho~e slow, pon-
derous move=ents ehoul.:d make hi!:2 look veey dramatic. He cannot alter his appearance as the ~
others can, ao he _IDU.Bt war a coat with turnod-up collar, sunglasses, slouch hat, and glove
when he goos out iJ1 public~ But when he takes •em off 1 he is a THING%
So ach fer who thq an and how ther got that VB:/• Nov, here's a gimmick I_ th1l3k we might
plef up to advantage I !At • s make The 'rb.1.ng tru,. heaV7• in· other words. he 's no~ ·reall:r a
good guy. He's part of tho ·~ Fantastic Fotir because they all got that ~ tcgeth~r and
ther decide to remain a team., end eleo bec::1:uso he
hac a crush en su.san-- but actually, h3
is jealoua of Mr. fantastic and dislikes Ru.ma.n. Torch because Torch e..l~s sides with
.P'ant~tic. ~ Let. s treat him so that reader is al.ways ~raid he rill sabotage the
.Fantastic Four's efforts at whato~ they are doing- ho ien't interested in helping man•
:kind the 'tt1a3' the other three a.re- Jut is more interested in wimlirJ.g Su.:san a~ from liz::
·Mr. Fantastic •. (Ve aright indicate that he feels· ~e may return to his normal' sel.f at any
.· time·, because nona ·o;t th.et1 .k!:.ott hov lollS their stra.Dge pewrs rill last- cr whether Ol ).·t
the eft"eot of the cosmic rays will one day wear off thee). . . , . .
~'IX3t the four ot them decide t~ ,form a· ~ tmit-- they think it i.e z:za_ an act of Fate
which made the:n as the7· are and they thiJ:ik they 0\1e it to fato to uso their powers to
help manlrlnd. So thq adopt their nev names: liU!U.N TORCH, MR. FArlTASTIC., lJi'?lSIBLE GIBL,
and THE 'l'HI!l'G, and vcv ·to spend their lives fighting all eorts of evil menaceo which the
·normal forces of tho world ca.n.ect cope rlth; lr..d, ··to keep it all frc:1 gett~ too gocd,--
goody, there is al~s friqticn betwen Mr. Fantastic and T"ne Thing, with Human 'rcfch
s1d!J3g with !(r. F. Also, the other three are e.l~s afraid cf The Thing getting cut of
their control some dar and harm.irlg manldnd with his amazing st.rellgth. Occaaicnally also,
rou might have the 'fbing wanting to do soccthini; for perec!l!tl profit- end the other .:5 try
to stop him. In other words, the Thi.ng dcean•t have tho ethics that the other three have,
and c~nsequently he v1ll probably be the most interesting one to tha reader, because he'll
altra1e be unpredictable •.
So muCh tor the introduction.-- the preceding should have covered exactly 11 ~es,
co:cmistil:Jg of 2 chapters. (Chapter cne1 6 pages •. Chap-ter 2: 5 pages) .
Tho r:.o:t ··two Chapters, in vlnch the Fantastic Four undertakes tlwir tirst caeo, rill~
be ~ chapters tor a t;;tt~lu total of .ll:) pac3s- ~~...:'l(.J~.s;.>.)
J . 11. . - '·' .
JA694
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page202Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
1 of 20
EXHIBIT 31
JA695
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page203Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
2 of 20
~-
•
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•• i.;
:B ~ .. t
:2 .€ !! &.
~ ~ d ~
JA696
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page204Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
3 of 20
\nu:ll-
D.\K
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(c•w•c
TERVIEW
Ill/ W/1/1/
ll' I· IHJ,~T
\1artin Cnut.lm11n fl)!.ht

1\il'>
,\., \L\11o:f'~ ~wh!1~h~·r, he l•:rorkdh
IH\ Ill \~ IIIONY KRAFT lo1ld dtl'n--•_'Jitdf 1\fllL"r St11n I.e~ th,tl
WR//J:/1.·
r~·()rk 1\ uulJ h:n L" ,[ rl<--'_!!.1!11 (' fc',\diPn In
I' ED ,'OEWSO"
l><:hil1d·tl~c· ,,,·nL.., -.1 .. 1., .., ·>I ·ru,/,•r-m,ut rlw
.t dlllllt:: <:h;Hd<--'k'f ~.tlkJ
S-ptJcr-\L111.
i>lollt'.li\J 111<11~· t ·li.olt'!o: 1\!lh f>rll •>ilt'i/1
'dllLC 'pHJt'r"' .ilL' >0 ildtl'J h\ Jn>lO~
.11:0.1 SA LJCR tP
illilllC\~ till'< ,umm~·r\ k.tr lolm
\R \( H\OflHOHl·\~ .HIJ .. lt k.1~t
DARRELL llOATL :n 1111 , ,~,~·- ho.: 11 ,t, 1'1):!.1\1

I ~dll' til.: hoHJh..l •1a!L' ben h. nnt c1o:n
'-~mrlln!,_! J IIF \\L\.ll\(j :-,pJJ)ER- SPOil/<,// r
BILL !IL\DWICK \1 \.\ lifllil 1'<\ll<.' :t!Y . • nuJ mll 1<..\lll\
n::-<SORED SPIDEY
DAN II Ma:,'< .!L'Ll'PIIll!! tl .l~ lrlll} ilnl' ltl \t:lY lllltd
•L't' !he• '~l'l1l' l11 I• ,!,/ "'' /oriolll<' \• H " ' " l I l1nd
!'A fRICK DViiEL O'NEILL ,>'<II~' :;11 (idl ,uf11(' IC.I\Uil, ! l;l!l Jt\-
1!1 'f'rder-rJW/1 ~I
P.\CL POWER IIIH:ll\ f<.'tnt•mf-t<Cr odlt~·lally "rL'nlgnl/111!;1. ..

11 .h 11! that o\\llt' .iltt."r all. L'lt:n h;H.J,
\1 KAY \lcGONNf.LL rill'll I 1-..m·v.- tkll r11;111~ C<lmic'i C:l!l1t: .111\i
1\L'!ll. v.ne the •mo.:-; !.h:_J!
.111J t!dth
~-cached h1!,d1 ,,,ue
"ro:al) lllilnbcr~ ~~crt: .II< liST
D IL\\IBONE
I! n h;~J hl·o:n ur 1o me, l ~uc~' lh:JI ERIK LARSEN
'"' .t lmu diuonr
f'U{ ,,·n<'t(f c1li:.Of!C' ,/l ><<lilt' I<>IIIIL' p.il\~1 ''l\h
"iritlt:r-\lan '\uuld h.nt: qu1t>~l_y !aUo:d
IJON ,\L\RKSTEIN ,l\\;\1/
IIW '•Ucu·"lod 111 '"''-''"'t t<l lfw </1>1<.1~!110:
'l'"frr-m'-11/
Hut m<tn~ m11rt' pcopk drrun:ntly
SALLY (;,\llL\N[) ld;_l•J ~pldC'.' 1han I d hltkl·d thi~ no:w "n/1-
( AROLY,'< YOLNG tllo:-v.a!l~ LhM~ll.. lt:r .t!ld ~q ,( Ctlnll(~
q:1r \\:!~ hurn ,Jnd •.he \1un<:l \tlo: nl

IJA,'< HARRY ( tllllK\ l<~tinJ ]Hill (',\~·h!-H:d) l<lu(lf1f!
Y..::.1r~ l dlllund .. tnd IRT/ST
UILL BLACK l:ttLL t'"><:n c1rne
JOHN PRE,'< rtn:
1'.\.\L\IY BROWN t:nrbJ np prud1H.:lll!ltlw "PI D[R-:"-.IA \j
II <Jill 11/llo•ol ,\ i.uh1 Ill"!' /..,1/•1 jl.lll •HIC
LOI'IS[ & .\lt:NTOR Hn:BNER 197.>; C\1 1-~f)~\R l<ll S1nwn & Slillh-
t•l .1 ci.J"\ ,);, ,·l,,"lc ''"lilc' •·~'' I'> o,old l<l
< .\ROL K,\ LISH lL'f, ,tidl'd .11\d c~hl"(kJ h\ Jim S11licrup. {'<iliff'"'- <'T
ED O':'<EAL I ht;t da;·\, _ltm ~~ 1 hl· ",lral·hn~:ril" 111
(BERYL I'RINDLE Lh~llt.!<.:' ul L'di!ltl!{ ,til the Sptr.kr-o\<1Jn
-·•mh.,,n ~Lll\o:L !It~ 111:\~nt :-,P!I1FR-
\1 ·\ \' ;Li'fl';_ \~ 1111l'll :!IHJ dr :t \.\ ll h\ foJJ
\1.\R liN W HERlO(; \lchHianr, 11.1' ;1~>1 hr"kcn ._!li -..rit-..,
/'I /IUS/I FU
I• U>!d; ·llld llloidC Ullllll'> ht-.1\lf\ (\.IC
I'EEPER RAilKER te~ ), .. JJ I\; Il-l{\ If w ·:sf
Sf.\:'< LEE
I'
1.1ihd 111
!II<' "'•If! 'lk·.,h I·• •it<' lut ;h'"'! l'"ln ,.;,._ iilc
1.i11Lh ll!l tl,<ilhl F.t\<' lhl' h11uk. 111>1 I ilL·
II II d.t;> ,,/ ll!·'chl', ll.ol \·'1
:.,,,.,l ,1 llndnllu hLhl .>11 1) t
' ' .\.\1 IJA~( fR \ 1',' .I,,\ I ,J 'I 'II! I •>dlill'd J'
\lchtriDne 11!1 lo•dd'J \1
\ii.ot1l,) t..IH\11~~ t•HI\c'll11<lll !lid ',\hich
...,;-tlkrup .. t:llc loti .1 ld\ d •t1r :·_·t
\IR Hl F I > I\ /Ill I I IU I I
' <i·. I ' ill "II -...,!,.Ill lei \I, >lllll;tlll I 'illcC
\I \IUN.\ ~'d;U,',II
·ill' :1/<"Hif.llol ·l•"lltill t L llll1<: 'n \L,n,
'!(/,;·ud.<l•o ,lL •·1-l -1 Ll' I
I ll \1,\lll ER tll.ll\1 [I _,,l, '"'"'d I•• -., ,_. ilil!l ,1\2,11!1 'IIIPI'c'l < •Ill Hl
"'-' 11:,1 iu ,·_nl I•' td lilt' tllo~..,ttw.:d
,, .1, ,,,.,,, ,._, ,,r, o;OMICS 'P-4TEA\IIl'::W ~~~ 1 ,_.I >· r, 11111·. ·<ill ,_,,f,,l!ll!JI)! ~Jiillf
·~·, '",:: '•"' • ··1 ·,"'~ li• 'H' •tn
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>UBSCAIPTH)I\j!j; ;>0•.-, •,,ilinnp [-1,·11·~·\·,-, r-, l'o:l••!li-!\
'iI
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'
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I J: I UN.\ lj
'II. 'l'·d~l \1.>1< !llol h,l ·~'!I
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comic.5 1 interview
JA697
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page205Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
4 of 20
. . r\.,Ln
"What I tried to do in the comics was give
I'
I
i'
):
'
i
John Rumila pro1 idr·d

lhi' portrwolt of ....;l;m
lht> ~ho l.l'r.
comic.5 78 inteniew JA698

1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page206Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
5 of 20
i'l KLL"iiiFH
every character his own individual style:'

'
3
"3
0
t-'1', I 'trginia. thne 1.t un -1 IJ(IHJ tht= hl1r1J ILI"-')l'f w,ts r~·:.t!ly Dan:Jc-\-rl, I thc..e ninja rnov1cs. _-\nJ he \hould ha\'1:-
(!] The1• don '1 !hut. <!{

t'PIIIU.'. fhe~· t'•IIi 11 Cultjorma.
1 u/1 11 1h1nk. there l\-Uuld h;nc bt:-cn rnuch more
interest. But rhe mtnute they htHh ~new
h-cen lighting lib: J gyrnn>l'>l \'.-'h:H I
.1lway'i tncd to do m the comrcs W.J~ ~nt:
11 nJ thl! /Jt(roH Rnrl.~e H rt>alf1· the who the other ,Jnt: \\-'a'> .JnJ rhc-y'n: JIL\I C\CfY Lho::tf<ll'ltr hi\ t)\\-n llld!ViJua! >11,-'k
(,,/Jot 1/ult". !11ert". in tht' Cur· ·•! lighting ttJgcrhcr ~h .r!l!c..:. tht:n I kd 1t C.lplaJn -\rnenca wouldn't t"1ght l1kt:
IIJ):t'ls und Srwn, dH·elfy lht' fuiht"rojlht' N:-c1HtlC'> too CtliTIIc-hmllo.:y. II\ /U'>t two Dar~·Jevd, o~nd llt"ltht:r •>f tht:m wou!J
nl<l!ll' '(OJ~· wtri tilt! uwhor o/ /11.\ ol• 11 gu;..,; 111 CO\IUtne, Julllg wh;Ht:\-Cr the hd[ tight l!b: Irun .\1an tlf l1ke '>llllkone d~..:
titrl\'t'r'it'. Sian f_t'f'. {t'l the !lmr ,-,rnen thty"re domg. fhcy ,dl \huuJJ ha>e: tht:Jf 1lWn ,tvln.
,,f tht' /r'llr-nJ!or world ft'I'IJ!Ifld ll'ilh hn· DA ~: I \r-t' alw1 rou !Nt'Llfl. 11w~' ~a Fe ,-\nJ <lf cour-;e, 11 wa~ >illy-)n\llung. lt
mmrl!' !t"t", tltt" ·llf-H1rr 1 ft•t". 1he ·llf· ah·ar u .~uod piof dt'-.·t'lnpmolf. looked IJkt: he wa ...: \\-eanng a hhndloiJ
( hcl'f/ul' 1 t'l', llflt' o/thrHt' lrollhlt'l'ome STA,\1: You ·.ce. ,,ne ut the bc;Jutdul lJA,\1: Sort o/ a /t•nnng musk.
to re11 un hn f'llSl
l<''il:'lltil \ihO rt'/iJ-1/:'J thrng'> J bout -.enet JJcntlta:~ 1.~ 11 g1ves an STAN: I lw<,e :.~re little things, hwl think
u< complnlllltt'!IIJ. anJ mit' •I/ the mo.rt aJUitwnci!IJycr ol drarna and mtncs:t 10 cumuLJtlh~ly. when )-tlU put thl·m ,til
dl<'t'\~lhfe dclllt'J l'olll'rt" 1'\'t'f flkt'/)' 11> the ;ltuJtwn_ fhat's why, alltht.-sc ~l"Jrq, wgethcr. 11 t;JI\e~ .tway. What I'm gettrng
111<'1'1 nobody !..new SurennJn was Clark ut rs. l Jon'! th1nk H J1Jn't work ~Cilll\t.'
Kent. nuhody k.nnw'i SruJer-Man 1~ ynu .::an 't han: 1wo ~urcr htroe\ t •>~<.: th..:r
f)A.\1 fL\<rE."' /11 u.> tlo11k111~ uhow 1he J'crer /'.Jrkcr .wd 'o fnrth_ Hccau.~ th<-Jt 111 ldm. I 1/11nk 1t d1dn't W<lrk hcc:Ju\e 11
!f(·IA Ff tllll\'les tf:'n'mh•. .·l wrt of ,omt:hnw adds <~notht:r laver ot rntcrcst Jll~l rcnHv w;nn"t done the wav 1t 1111ght
l't'!l//1111 h'l!rl.t•d rn r!lt' rv \l:'f/n, hot If ;1nd. I think, nen J l!rtk rnore ITlattHrty haH: h-.::cn.
.,·f:'Jm'd tu Ill<' thu.t 11 ltt:'n I'Otl ltal't" /II',! c~nd 'orhr~IIGltHH1 to 1t l'ht: mmute DAN: 1;1 /o\'t' 10 l'r't' /lt'O l!lpt'r hnoe~
'II {If'( ftt'(U/'1'. !Ill ,J{/1'111(11 rlf rt'flfi>IH \-OU'vt: got a I?,UY runrnng :rru11nd rn J /O!ft'lher lfl the o;/ww
,fun!! 't relllh /!1·. lrr' !Itt:' I' /oo fc\-{f!J/111!(1 l'O\tume Jr1U peopk know who he 1~ ~TAN: I'd lo\-c trl '>ee dne, dune ~~dl.
111 ;fruit' thing1·' Should lhl:'r ljO mort' li,r DA,\1: Whul_~ iht' f''!i!lf of the t'ollumt<.'1 DA;\1: iJlt'.)TPJ;RJ/.-LVrJllti RAJ \U_Y
r /It' r,•,J/h , , 111/1<'-h, •ok \Ill// or !/of' __,fAN: Yn1h. \I,Jw, Jnnlht:r thtng 1\ th;Jt !1!0\'lf'S tf/tJ.IIT(Jft' /() 111t' tftrJf tfw !ll<l\'5
'"'fAN LEI-:: Oh. I tl11nk they JU.\1 didn't 111 the Durcde\-d 'how. the UJ\ItJJnc V;;)\ JUcfft'lli't' < ()!ll]O-t'fll I'Wili("h/Juk 1111//
,],)J[ tlt.;ht I rhrnk I! l'llUfd work rf1t 1-nre r.:rnhle ...,T.--\N:Ot ~-,1111\c·, ,,fuJIJr\t". lr Ill'>! lla' l•l
,JoJIII.' .r little h!l dilkrcntlv. f-,Jr lfl\t~w~:r:, IJA,'\1: reub. t1 tulrta rhlfll;. /hat as 1111 hl• •f"ll< •1;.dH \'ow '-'.':th tile" I JPal
l
11 h<>f
.ill he- uil~: v.rllltht: Hulk .1n<J LMretJC\IL l t" \'J!IIpft' <'/ witut I 11 IH iu/km!( i!hlllll Hulk ~how. I tl11nk the rrohiem thc1c
dtdli't lil<.e tiH~ rd•::J "I hnth !!I l!wm /7rl:'r'rl:' ,/()[n!f It, hut ft'\IHin~ II ',\<IS that thcv Jll\l cha11gcd 1t roo rnud1
l.nrJI~Itl)!_ th~· (lillcr\ 'L'li'L'! Jckntrty l'l)<ht STAN: E'(;__L\,:tlv. One rll !It~ th1ngs I t11IJ f he\· JJdn'r du I h<lr the '.\a\- he ·,htluld
l•~.r\ .rnd the ,o~tm' 1\tlh thl.' llulk <ifld thun .tnd .q,:.un. l .r con-.ultJnl .. r'>
\\d' h.nl" h<.'~'n dune l hllr 1\ '''rro~ed to~ hL·
I IHlL \<dl l.._.rlolW 'I hc·rc ·~.ll'h <HW knt:V< \OU ~nr JW, \\hen rou 'rl' .t c•Jil>lllU nt. \ <'IJ l"rn lt'.lllt: 111 thllt~ t1l ill'. nank !
dh, <\il" ilther -'IK ·,1,1,' lr .. ~,,1i1J h.n..: hut nr1hoJv h;J•, to 11\lcn
•.. !llt,Jik lluld J) \'I: !Jr. /!1111 Rluke.
h.:o:rt rnrl,·h more dr.trn.tiiC II Dat<·dnd ~hem ilut the !1~ht ,,;crt<:<, \~L"i'l' t,-rrlhk '"'L\-\1: !idm;hrcr; llr HL!f..c· ! l•\f!!c't
11n 1 ~II<-''' 1l1.1t llnrd ll:illih.'fl~.l'ic·,tll\ fk >\.\"1 ll_l:(hllll~ Jd,c (huck .\lnrri""' lrl..x llklt n.ltn<'' ''llll'lrn',,_., li1•1 till'\ 'il<t'k
;ll<· l!·rlk "d H.ttlll':l .lrdnt ~nrn~ tlut ArUi:t: f r..:.l1kt: <~II\ h' >th \ uu \Ll' 1r1 "11\ , .t 1:1111 ,.,"1 ··p.n.trl· 1,,.,rr.: 111·1' .rd ,.1
HI<~~,· illtrJino: 1111" Jn,,r •1\,·\ h.1d fir
Ill. ike l,li~rrll!l<l I IHrt ..._, 11 ·.~ t•n't '' ill'.
II If i !Hif f[t(\ 'li.),I.Td )11:•1' i''.'l ,o,ll·
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... r\\:JJ.rl·d<.'ll " ' ,,,II r.,,,·r-,'111'•
li1,1 ',\:II c.t' , '''"r,.li 'l1.1'
7? interview JA699
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page207Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
6 of 20
JA700
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page208Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
7 of 20
·"TV productions were better than they might have been."

•,hvi1L .tfl' h<>tll 111LI<'d1hh Ltkntul i!ll\' ,iJ<hll .1 kw 'L't:ll~'\ tl\t:f diHI )!1\C II ,1
lr\ ,·.1\\ lon llll' to Lltlt~·t;c hii! dtt''< ·.lrl?hil~ ddlcrL'I!I •:llJrng I had 'l'l'l\ thl'
.trc l d \ ,JIIIktdt t<~ <I<~ Ilk
tiltlli-!'• "IW \C fl fll l 111 tiW it'\ hl<lll\ .• rnJ II look' flfl'!l\
,r, • 1 J'.~ ".<k d<>tl 1 h.! I•_' tiLl( i\'oikl\ ],tll\d- thin)< thn d:d httng !u h,1rh , ) ) d l h ,,,,, .r~<>"d 1" rnc \nJ I hclinc .111~ d.l\ 11"'"
·1111 \ ·.~;1/t tJr,_·rrr '"llll iiliO.:iii!2CIKt' .llld ,1'111\' dtl!ihlht<. Ihn ll he il<':rdtlll'( Jrlr Yllgo,l._r \ r,r to --.h,<l!
I ·r 111<' 1'1>1 rllL'IHI<lll, r!r<>w.dL rl '.drr'r,; \nd tile\- l~t:r<-'>hUI\., that ,tn.tdtlll ,_,,,:Jd i)ltl-.,l' 1.1>1 •L'Cl\C' <i\Cf ,!~.!!!)
'/<>1!1rlld '.\rtkthr' dT.tl I d<•!l I \~dill In \~.tkh I kif th.tt lhitHl\ u•tdd ll.t\L' ho.c'll 1).\,'\: I th111J.. thu1 uught I•! At' u t;r,•uf
"~<rnd !!I,,; I'm krH~< J..rrrg riJ,,,.; I\ J<l!ll! Ji!kr<:ntl\. h11t thn lll'r<.' >tdl.t hdl {rn t<JI /'llf\/111 1/llt'I/IPII. Wh11t do J /)
l':<>drrtll,'ll~- hn.ru~··. hi .rnJ brg~·. th<:\ , ll <1 io I( IKI lcr I h:lll I hn llli).!ht h.t 1 L IXc'll ')ilitnJ:t'r !tf/J {'upft/111 lrHeri/U hu1·,, In
",-, •: . . rr',l ""' h rnh.-lia'l'iH h d ,,ne .tllJ •hL·~ 1).\ ~: I ,JJ.;fet' I ,/(J!J I "dt/1 /(1 lillj>lt· th<Jt , d!lll/1<111 ' \u 1 uu /1~ t'd tht:' H fiJ>I'
:Lrd 'hllll\ tir.rl '.\c'll'll I ,dll rill:' I 11 ere rr•rnh/1 !>ud It Lid\ f/ill J hule .'- L \ ,~: It \\ ,l\ ,l gor~d ,LflfJ! "ul...-, '.\<: h.nl
/)\,";f,fl:f<'l' lfvl!llif.. /hor>/lt!lll'l;'l!/ ,Jr,,tf!pt•l!llill!{ \oh, 1he ( 1/'fl/\ .tnurnhn ol prohkm' One ul the rh1n~
1/J/rr/1:' rhr.•l•t:h the n~<l/ I \ff.IU£ I ntoll'lt'n!!t:\1,/,_;!w'' h.t[lp<.'fil'd l~;l'i th._rt th<: \l'rlfl1 V.;t~ \ll
IlLII
... r \,"''j'; \nd flill flixhy. \\ hn ,lrrt(tteJ ~ L\.'1: ( \ p r ·\I" \\11- R.l( ·\I'> .dmp,( ~·'•JJ
.JnJ 'u rt<.:h .tnd thedrr•xtor.. \l~n
i!krn ,nd l;t•rry DiPe!!;o. 1\h,1 '.\llrtc ltnt.,hc·d liltHkr-.tdnd tho~t 111~·\ ">~:ttll ltl Ppm, \Lp ,n 10 J,n'-· ~~·1th llw ,urpt lh.rl
henrmr-\ favnrile
~rt'en;')!ra)' la·ht'ITioth- I ht-
llulk. h}' Frik L:uwn.
i' <
j I
•• 31 JA701
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page209Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
8 of 20
1'1 Hll'->111 k
•
"CAPTAIN AMERICA IS almost finished.
!
'i
I '
Captain America (M111t Salin~;:~r). with his hullet·proof 'ihiekf, r~pr~nts the bet of mankind.
twld!llcdnnythlll!; /\ndb\ tiKllrncthr -"'L\1\': 1 h~·~ tldilllll'l_'> lneJ lo Ju thJ!. Human Iorch. v,hom we h;td •>u,n~:J
u..a' ,]J,,t rl r.rrl ;rhtHJl thfl'L' h<lllt\
!Tit!\ I(: .rnd r :hrllk H ~.Jr(l<.: .J<..f()~'-, I tinnl. ~Cfllt >c:_IJ\ ;~gn ou1J wh,1 l~il' L·reatcJ hy Cui
\\'dl. lh' lmtldn't il<tlr 11 th;rt lt•ng_ "'I! Paulin, thL' ,tL'llll \.'.hit ri:J\Cd Red .\~ulf. Bur~:m;, tcrt,unlv llaU .1 untyw: fJ<JI-\-!'f
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ll"t~t11(2 fltf!hl .rrHI d;l\ In <~dd lrttk hrt' lj /ir'l/ Iiiii h i'fl' ,;,,,!! 1/ 'I All· HI I IIIII\\ If\ .1ltn 1n· 1\tl<' rn rh,· ,ntnf! <'rltlltn).!:-.. ''' t<l
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/''''~'IIIII,!' ,111,i r,,/i/i ,,,;,;,,,/ oJII ,•,/t[f' ''' 11rdt till.' Iorch It \llllild ht·lut\ tn hnng
,p drill.! I <trd · II .rl'.llfl Hrrt J I•.' -,trll :..'PI rl,,·, httlol/d h.td.. th,· \uh-,\l.rrlfwt."Jrhrn~ rn th<.·
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comics 82 inlen·icw JA702

1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page210Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
9 of 20
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They want to give it a slightly different ending:'

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pt::-r~on.tltty hotlk ur .t ~-harancr tr,ut th,u

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~uy ~hu\ hecn 11ut ,J{ 11 tur ~U Jt.':lr\ .. lnd
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,/r1mfr~rming bf:'!it'/m Amertt'u.
ST.\,'1: rhat\ nght 1 And here\ c~ gu;.-
\\ho'd b.::: cnm1Jcn•d ltH.JIIy "'-iuan: lie
hel!l.'V<!<; 111 h~rty .1ntl l'r\Cl'Lium ,IJ!d the
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1111hoJy wa' Jlltl.'rt'>tcU 10 v.- •.H ,lrl}lnllre
Pt:or!e v.-t:rc turncJ ulf So I ligurL·d.
"Let'.;, g1ve It a >llot." So that '"-'·'~
the rt:a~on for the 111.111 1lUI 11f runt:.
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STAN: Wdl. 1 t!Hnk 1t'~ H:rv rer~·ertl\t'
oll you to '"'t' 1/ut. hecatL~e tHW th1ng I
ilw:Iy~ trleJ 1<1 do 1\-:1~ t.1h thing_~ that
~~ere: JJ~aJV.Inl;lgn .Jrld trv 111 make d rhe RM Skull. pnrtra~·ed hy Scott Jl>~ulin. Is the human f"mhodlment of evil.
p!m out 11f 1hem AnU th;Jt U\l.'J to
i1.1prt:n tn me,, 1<~1 1n the 't•HK'~ 1h.11 ! ST.-\N: 1- \dLil\'. ,_,\.let I> "111g o~nd till' <lrche~u-a c-'illllt'~ up lnHTl
0:\~': lnJ r/1o1 1hn· .luJre 1lw lf/•!<~kl' ll<l\\ht'll'
1110\l u! the linlt' .llt..:r \It" !:'Ut >Ltrkd "Jfh rfrc re!l,/.'r 0.-\.'t: Inti IWI!idr noltet'>- Crrf'rll' ri//1'
lhe .1r11~t did nl<ht <d the [1\<l!ltng. I .... T.\N: hH l'\.llllflll'. ltllltil.. tlicTL' 1\,h .1 , ·fo>/t'/11 1
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111111 ,l IHIC·IillCf. r,tno.: ,,!J~rr I lud '-..r1•kr \1.1n "r '"111.: 'll~'d1111111 drl' ' " /1/1/rft ur f!!lliing~ tht!H'
"I ,·r\ k;tlllrt: [)r_ UIJUill .1nd 11..: gttt:'> l hd r:ll'kJ' t<.,JIJ..iil,l! tf, 111 II I he 'I I •.'l'! d nJ l!c , '•111 t'llllr•lll "' "rder tu llt<lke !Iron 111, !TI::'
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,.\ n the Mll\l v.-:.1~. lw ·d prallJ<.:allv Jo ~he ).,oJL·d c,lil\ -...,, J 'ud I ill', hc~r.Jdc-r ·,.n, ...,r.\.'\1: lin. I tlunk I u111.dll l<l he
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'I r/),J(!\ />1 /)rJ\ /!/'{ fflt• o /l,Jri/1 ft 1'\ , •IIi" 1-,,lll \len:Iht'm (;j)lan \I<' I il ld '.II'~ I',L::\11'
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31 interview JA703
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page211Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
10 of 20
I' I IJI 1:-.IH N
''As it looks now Columbia may buy SPIDER-J\1AN.''
/ \
2! '>! l'~: nt ury. A oJ they 'rc ~urro,cJ tu do ~TAN: ll·nr• '' l·J 1t. ! 11 J~ l·unwtuu~ of!!. Stark/ 11'1/, h. rlw nun,,r , hurmlt'r'
SJ'/I)f-_K-,\i;\ \i anJ now thq 'te t<lli-..tn!!- J d1dt1't l,_n<H\ 11 \.\<lldd l\lfll Ill($ ~IJl'IJ J Hhr ,/!d ilillilnn~ of tlr!IIH; !lid!'
!\l Culumht<~. and the \\-a~· 11 ion!-..\ !JPW h1!' thrrt~ I he lt~t,on! d1J It 1~ that 1n thl' STA:\': ),nt l.nt)\\, J l;tn 1 Tl'.tll'. duii-1
('\llumhr:.~m;ry end ur hll)lng SP!I Jf- R hrgtnn1ng I \~;,t\ 1.\rrttng ;drno\t .11! tlw remcn1hcr ))td J dti rt_ rl! Jrd till' \lrt1l'f
~1 A"\ Irum 2ht Ct:ntury b-H:h II nit I put h.,<Jh\ lllht:ll. .111d th.tt m;,Hk lt ,;;nt,·r lor .ti!L"f nw do 11'
<l n•lltct: .lh,lut 'omtth1ng tn thL· Bullrel\ nw ll l !tad 11 !luhk Jrt::Jmlnf ur .t riot. I D.-\:"/: f i/un~ 1 "I' ,j,,J 11
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l-..11ov. 1!. h\ the IHTll' d o..:nnw' niH. 1t"ll \f<ttl !lll'l"l\ dH" HuJI,_ (If r hur Oll'l'l> I>A:\; fh>'l HI'/(' ,Ji/rl!!, • IJ(I!,f• lr'/1 tl/l•/
h<liL' .Ill ~-h,tnged I .tpt.1111 \llh'lt,·.t , .. "r 1.\h;l!clt:l tlw hdl /1/iJf/J(' ju/1 /!l:lilr',f dl< t<,l/1{('</ /1'
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DA:"i: 1-1/R)' f',jJ.!_ Fill 111-.'1 r,_ I llotdd tll\<l)CIJll'. l<tr the f!ll\' l<nial j/]ll'<' !hill)!\ ll.ijljl-!"11 I(·~ /ll<.llht ·,,lll
"' L\.\: ·\nd l'm h,tr111g th,1r 11,. rndl pttt I{< c:HJ\t' I don't~ 11011 )1(,11 tltn Cdll L'\t'n I\ .!Iii [H g11•.· till' j--.,,,,j, ,\ ._fl, tl Ill tlh ,(I Ill ,I··
11 tl/1 !- 11'- tckl l\1<\fl 11<:1\>.illi-.. ).,_·cf' tr.rt k <d ,!llthl" rnmut;tli<llh Hut !,JI .('> thL \;rk, ~" I ill,l• lt.r\ f;~tll<'d
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'-!fA'\: llut .t~dlll_ :1\ ll<l[ c<lflli,lcild )< ·>~·,\.1·.1·. "\\,·11 k(,,v l'tliLJI~· lh,,r ,,JrllL' rhtllJ-' dill ilL li'l'c \l,,• h, lltr1, I·•
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'''itld '•<•It ,•j !-,,,"-,Ill lt\t'l\1('.\ ,l) 1\llt:ll \lld II 111,11 ,\I'll l't,l" ly
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\f,lrl ,•{ ( • •tlllr' •I,, •Ill It' ",11 I•• rnllr ITI,tll lll\lil
,I >< flo/, 1/1 I<''< • >I/ II< 'I /i'<fllli I • I r I(' II /II I I< '< 1 J/ l, 'II tlt/,/r,-,, ,/lr,/d<;UI/1) r•/1111<11 1/1•/ )11>1111 .tilt'. ) f•_j( \1.t \ "' • ,Jr, 'II c~' 'I!'
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,/i,/!lii!l !1111 <'l••h, f!•,/ ,,,,, '"' ,;,, ,. /!' •t! \!,ill on./ 11' 111
,/,1//1('11 ,, .' :, ( tl/!/tlill I/))('/ I I " <fiJi/ 1/,J ,, 1..1'11' <IIi</
~.......................WIOM>~I[,~(~'~O~n1~i~c~s==]8~1~=zin~tc~r~>1~C~l~l='J.........~u...............JA704
~
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page212Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
11 of 20
··1 think they're geniuses at lVlarvel. l really admire them."

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."' L\,\': I h,l.\e (n tc!l \Oil,! thtnk they':·e
~nli!P.<.:'> .!! \fanei becau.\l' th<.:] llMke 1t
.!II \<lll1Ch<l"" Itt' 111. !'hq.- ge! t!W\l' >L'fll'S
'ho:rc 'l'll1tthtn~ h:tppen'> 111 une t\.'111<: t)i
,qe hot)k :md n\ pan tl! wh;H h~trr•·n~ 111
tn,nh,·r :-.~o..: ut .!!htdwr hllok ,tnd 1t\
_(!,,. ~<ltng \!n ;n ttlc- guy\ dV.tl fH1ok
-liHJ 1t J!J \~tlrh u\IL
1),-\,\1; _,j /,J~/Wt' IIIJ;flllllilft'
:-, f.\N~ \nJ J rc·:J\Iy .ldflHn: thern f<lr

hc:ng .1hlc to dn 1L .wd they d•J 11 prdr_v
1\<:ll i!lU'>l n1 the !lillt
()AN: I renwmher ~<ht'ft I lint l·i.Htt'd
\'e\1· F1rk ("itl; llr"!k,,d up and I Ylltd to
flon' l<rafl, ')(w mnm .\pi,/er- \IIJ!I
11.-ttnrs he!HI't'n rhnc hwldmJ?s''' !her
j,,!~l'rl, lo\l;'f !ol!,etha It/ the n!/11/t'\,
"iL\,\1: (/.,11-il:hter.) !k <l!tiV dtlt:S It <Jn
:ldtT<J\\1 \I rt:~·t'i.
1}.-\'\: !hut·, l't'rr Ei!ll\'1'1/lnlf. !lull' nnw

, ,, , un 1here. r ht!hedt!tlhle td,·nttr!'. !110.
I ,i/ttrn·y !hough! that 11l letl'if Sptder·
\fan has iJ ji1fl ;;IC<' mr11f... Ulrhe\'t' uther
, iuJrilcf1'n rtlll/11!/f!; arr<und HUh \t'(ret
,,fnlflf!t'\" i<hrl iran' dummo >/11J.Iks mui
tlun~Y. if\· hurd to I!HIIi;lll<' II•J nnl:'
I! ·J!I!d !..now
-.fA~: You're 11ght. !11\t:LI to ln:tm~ a
1,1, ,tnLI I ,ri]l dn ,1 )lltk hit .\nd P!W
:hn1g tt1.1t .1h~a"' ,\(Ot a L1tl~\h ll\lt nt the
,!HdiOl~·L' 1\.1\ Tlt.lt ! \~Pdid IJ)!.. <~hou!
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),)\~ d \<)j] \.\\'!' lhiJUtthl o!lil
\ jl,!(l. •If pl:J·,~<.·,, \I'll ~!1(1\\<. ,ll\d) 1\<lUiJ
·j),•lc I ,,ill_ "!fan l.rr. Lti'-•nl.!. 1<1 \uU

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l) \\-: fr1 .,n:, 'i!l!rl!\ ,;n,J 111 1 •.'1 'u'wn'
\ frl!Hn and "'Pidev, from i''"~"' !J!. Pn1cl!~ pro\ idni hv hik I ,Jr,en.
Cl) 85 interview j
JA705
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page213Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
12 of 20
~1\\riE •.
''There's almost nobody who doesn't know Spider-Man."

1/1<' ft•ft,'f' li•l/1<' J.:r,/1<'1/ I till'''" hhrll l11r di,.ld-.,llll.q!c~ ,lit th.lf 11 11\tull' Ill< I\ II' 1/liJ//l lt'1/fl <1~•
1•'11, ,J,fd ,,,,.1, lr r111t: 11\ fllc(.',llld .., 1 _\ "\: ) cu --. d ~ "· 1\ I w n I '·' J' '1 dI 111 \ v •.1
•In 1/w lo·ur• llh1 ,f,, '" '''•11/\ '''!'''' c<111i!<llt.lhk IP .1111,1\~ he <~hk l<l ~llPII ~\Ilk, he c,llkd lk lid"- .Ill t.'\Lclillll' dl
/h'i•l('l hair' 11/<'r/!.i :ull\ 1'1 ilk '' ,n' II /1<1 \ lh-, ll.ll.t' l<.' 1 "· \\ lu.-1 (.' ih' lih'\_ \1 /i, > :II<' "ld ( , >lltl1lhl,l I he· II .• !ltd he ILl n!t:d I 1>
I l1111 i a/" or' JIJ/I'f<'''''" lilt' 1111,, hh !Jit:!lth Jl(. tu h-._·dhk h> [1rcd11'l 11i1.JI du 'lPJIJI R-\IA.\ I rcnlt'mhl·r tw lk11
hr'J do tllakr ,I ~1\Ln "l'l nl urcum- me litH hctl\ c~nd I me1 \\ith hnn .rt lH,
"' '
,Ju, '""
-.,1,\r'\-: I til111l 11 lll<thn 11 ~i.nlu i<> ~VI 'LlllCr' '-, wJtknh. \ <)IJ l hrlll/!L' <J H oJ th;u li•IU'e ,n1J th' h.HJ a numhn ol mcmhcr ..
lh<:nl Hl\ilhL·d Ill ".ltU:It11J(h Ji\ lilt: '>di!IL' \<Ill thrd"" 111 J v.dJ cud luu mo1c lmn nf ill~ ,t;dl 1'nl'!L' ~u·nhody \\J' "l
.t> mo't H1t!K .td>entutc \llo"'-'> on I\ hi <lll<llht·r ut\ or \ou t..dl nit one o! 11ll' l'\Lilnl .1nd ht· wt:muJ ><l hrl~ht rltHI ~~~
I IJ,- hcllll'> ·Ill' L'ilhl'r rnlrLL'!llL'll U/ c·h,tl.ttt•·r,, on<.' ol !11\ frwnlh. ur 1ntro~ IHp .;nJ ~il unJt.:r\lanJitlf,: tll 1\hat lhL·
dt:lL'di\C~ <If fL'Jl<lrtCI\. \If '><1Jlll'lh111g dtK~: ,1 IK>I char;_l<.:to:r L·h;!IJ(ter ~hdtdd h{' ·\nJ I ,,uJ. "CJh
th:tt'JJ (Jl;d,.; II L'.l~\ lol lhdll l<l (.:l'l [}A!'\: Or ruu marr1· I11m, one olthc lllo\1 lll<lll. c~r~· \H' g.rl!ll~ ltl ~tl ,J gunJ mn\JL'
Ill\ nh ui 1n Llillll'' '1m. d d )!U\. kt \ .,,~,~, dal/gr'fUW <~1/t'l oul ol tht\" ,\nd then 1Ah;ll haprcncU
I"> ,I '>nd,t jrf~ 11 J\ll'! .1\ l!ot!lJf;d fl•l hilll S'L\!'1: (}r 11\U m<-~rrv h1n1 _o...;ow ,ume- \A;J'>. (-illllrnbtd h.1J a change n( rnan·
1\~·L·l.t!tt:l \\tTL ltl!!l'lllliPhcJ (/JJI/f~h JJ~- !lld\ b..' \lt'11 H11nk ,rhout htrn h;l\ m~ ;Jgtmcnt, Jnd P~t~r Guhrr kl! f he
/er 1 Hut il ht: ~~or~·, 111 a nc\~'>PJrvr 111 d l..td \\'hat do )-OU Jo \1.-lth the l.:nP l 1\ holt- rrotl'd !ll'>l Jell a ran whl'll h..: kit
ilr \
phntO!tl :J phcr Or he·~ ,I cor Ill n·rnemhcr >~.hen I c.ame ur Wtth RecJ .1nd /l!un~ hl· then h,JJ •Hher li,h tu In I
.t JL·t~'llll L' 11r :t mt:mh.:r u! th~: ( · J_,\ 1J! I he Rtt:h;nlh hanng. :1 ~on 111 tht· FA...,._ JIC\Cf ltl:ard !rtlm hm1 agdJil ,.\nJ no\\
~-HL 1\dL then t!\ ndtllr<d tll;Jt he'd h-e /AS 1\C HHiR_ I ,.__ud. ''\\'h;u1J I do here 11.e Jlt.'", a mdlnm }'l'ah bta. :JncJ rt
111\uh.:J And thdt\ r~;ally the rnatn 111th tho: .. on'' All thL' re<Ider~ an: ~otngto llld~'> ltlc mJ.ykc \.1,-t:'ll get together J)!JJn
' IL'..l'>llll It\ the L':.t\lt:\1 co11rw ><1\. 'lit·\ got tO hJ\C il \Urt:f rower_"' 1)11 ,J rnl_ll'Cl
I, !: 1),\N: ll'lfh .\jndt'r-.Han. rou madt' the What \'.OU!J ht~ \Ufkr rower ~·) JnJ I 1>1\N: SUJit'fm/JtJ und &uman --one of
,,
I' I 1 hun 1' to le1 thr r harr.Jt'tcr dt'l'flop, ra!llt'f llgun:d. "WelL tt1l bt· ;.-ean 11llo.C'er tht' thmgs a how rhe mol'll'\ thm lwantt·J
,I
.q J
,-._1
than rcmam JUJ/11' /1;•:\ marned no\\
I Jt;l! ,,,. thmA- alu1uf that lJ f1,1 ., !Jot'\ tiWI
h11n ,J hah~ for ;J long ttme iitld 111 make :I
ntV\Ictv ol n f:vnybody 11.dl wonJcr
/o hrinK up is thai Surernwn and
/!ulman hr11't' a ht.\lurr that 1.1 20 rear\
'L I'~
,,. /11111' adl'r.Jntugn und ,hlilthwlla!!,l'l ., what 1.1.tllfm \Uper ro\.1.-t'f fx:. anJ hy the /(JnKer than tht' .\fan'''' r·h/Jractt'n. /)o
'
:;; STAN: Oh' rm
\Urt: I( h:J\ Jl\dd\;W[.J!!C' lirtlC II h<t'l- tn ht: t:xrl;unt:d. ~omrhnJ~ t'iJ/Ithink !lwt (at·ton in'' I mt'r1!1, a/mn11
!' '"'rt .:l\-<'11 ht \1.-ntJng it. (U.wghler:) I \hln't
,, I thud, am ch;mgc' yt\LJ m;.~kc ill J
dt,Jr,lC"tcr h;l' Jt\Jd\Jnt.lgt:\, <!1)(.1 rm h;-ne to ,._orr\ about t!" _,\nd that
t'l't'rrhodr !;'ft'\1' up ll'itlt Superman am/
lJalllwn, hut tht' people 11 ho ,t:rt'll' Uf'
"'
:r· ;1lv.J\' ncn·<)U~ v.·hcn tht:-.c chJng.c'> art: ~t:tnt\ to nt· the w;~y ll hJrrened. I W.>.~ 11·ith Jfan·e/ <Jft' tlunr.mmcthing. hA:e
rn;_rck. hut I thm~ n\ )ttmcthln)l_\'ou h.nl· ~111J 11! lu<.J,v H/1'. or III<J!'ht' m thctr earfr 4fh
tn dn HlTauv: \<HI Jltllo'-1 c;__~n't ha\c J 1),\ N: 1 1·a11 tmagim• rou n11RIII ha1•e henl STAN: You'tc ah'>\lltJtely nglu. hut
Lh,ttan.:r. munth alter month ;JJtcr a 11//lt· /rtntrared on'r till-' lJATJI-1S !hcyh· the h1rge~t ~egmcnt o( the ntn\H>
lllO!lth. Jot \L'<i!'\, ;111J CO!llt' llp \l.ith lllo\'lt', ht't'l:JU.\1-' I rt'lllt'lllht'f onct' !hat gn1ng publu.: I th1nk th<.'rc\ Jlnw~t
llltuc:--.tJng -,tone'> whet\' the d\itracter i'Ul/ 1111tf f'TildUn'f f'etf:'f (Juhf.r h<Jd l11lhody who d1x·~n't .knuw ol SrJder-
IKICf dwng_~<, ,l[ 'Jif w/l..,·d a/lout Jomg a SPII>FR-AIA;V Man. Some chJrJ<.;ter~ ltke the Fant:JSIK
Conr~ to
CAI,TAJ,"'oj
,\M[RICA: THE
MOVIE
SPECIAL, pub I
and 2. T~t
p11infinli:s by
Mane! p11inter Jo~
.Ju~ko.
JA706
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page214Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
13 of 20
"The Turtles are a new phenomenon, yet it's successful."

Four or ev~n the X-,\fcn wh1ch 1<; J),\N: .V1J I I funk thl'~ 're m f'r..lrt detet:ll\e_ I rnc;-tn. there\ rwth1ng ~po=ctal
'i,
prnhably the WMltn luge~t-.,eJitng cotmlln~ un thar /fn DICK TH :ICY ..thout hun.''
I
comic hook -- a lot of .1du!ts Jfcn't \U tht' prPsv!J uro~Jiena. But lin a(rmJ Jlwr (),\.~: Efuuh. 11.- had t'olorful \·JIIains.
lamJ!I.H With thcm. But the p-eople who 01ck fran· mlert'H dieJ 1·omt' 11111e 11'.{o
Ore tl10~·te ht'flt'r he prt'tly damn '.{I!OJ
hw ht' IHnPt'i( '' r..lt r11ther dufJ
-'HAN: I ha\t a kcling tt'f! ~ tht' 'vdlalns-
I
Me uf the age that the mo\te proJucer\
Jre !ookH1W for, mo't of them know un /($/)II fl. th:Jt nMke 11, d the movu: JS a h1L t\nd I I
the ~arvd dmractcn bccaw.c mO\t of STAN: I han~ J feeling lt 11 Jo wdl. .-\t have tht' .,<~me kchng <-1bOUI rERRY
them d1d grow up WJth them, Guy\ 1n fc:nt, I ha\(' a kehng there\ g01ng to fJc A:'dJ I"Hf PRIArES. I rcatl sotnc:· lj
::I
their 20s, .10s amJ even early -Uk grew up ,l'>much pre'< lOth Interest 10 11 .1'1 rh<:rC" where th::tt they're gotng to make a mullt·
with Marvel. was 1n RAr\iA,"'J, hecalJ!.e they're pro- million-dollar productiOn wuh a lot of
DAN: SpPaking of til~ .\'-,lim, r!tat mottn& the- hell <lUI o! 11 ~A-tth .\-b:donn•. btg ~Tar'i. \lihon C•nllrwa_\J gc:ntus, and
remmds me of th~ T(j RTfES movie, J.ntl I ket:r rt:adtng they're gmng tu USC' l"m one of ~w. btggest fans, hut tf ~uu try
wh1ch I hawml ~een )'et. !hal StnJt:k m~ comtc-book colortng m the photograrhy to J11 a ~me-hner about rerry. he's JUSt a
a.s ironic. 10a. H.er~ 5 a cornu· hook rhat and they've gl)t thc-.e grl'at gue~t ~t:us. luJ who w.:~s ~1\cr 1n the Orient and he
h.e!(an su; rears aJlo atd to my...:lf, "'Why wnuld anyboJy buy they fought \mHggkrs
grossing movi~. the nghts to Dttk fracy! lk''> JlLSt a DAN: T~ult What mukr!,f that dij_fer~m
STAN: h-n't that funn~/1 I haven't seen 1t,
Prl!'-productiOll lllt"ork for tM DR. STRA~<;E mmle (TV)- 1978.
either, but \omebody had .;;ent me tile
Art by Fran-k Brunmr.
~hoottng ..cnpl, the 'R:rcenplay, <.~tid I
read it and I thought tt was bn!lianl.
Recausc I do this, I'm ~urc ev~ry wnter
J~. when you he.ar of a proJect, you ~'I
to yourself. ~How would I do thafl" I'm
not that familiar with the Turtles. he·
cause I read the book only once, but I
\aid to mysdf, "G<!t'l, I wou!dn) know
how to do a -.crcen play that people could
accept about some goddamn turtle~ who
live in a .-.ewer.~ (Laughlt'r:)
DAN: Ew•n thaush rh~ rerm ''fet•nag~
mutanJ'' becam~ popular hr!ca~ of
)'OU.
STAN: I know. And thw I read the

~creenplay, <-~nd it was 4utte Witty and
tntcn::-;ting and very innovative. I forget
the na~ of the writer, but my hat's otf to
him. You know, itS '>O funny because
rroducc:rs toJay an: all looking for the
Batman or Superman that. as you ~ay,
cwrybody has known ohince they were
kHh. Now, the rurt!es arc a new
phenomenon, c~t~ mmt of the puhltc
JtJn't know who the runfes were. c~nd
]t:t tt's ~ucce-s_o;ful.
I tell \O many peork that ~ure, tl\
go.. ld w have tht!" L~dJed value of name
re(~tgn~twn, but I don't thmk it rnc<Jns
that much. For \.'.'(ample. you take ,t
movte ltkc DIE HARD, LErHAL
\VFAPO~ or f:\EVERLY HILLS COP.
~~)u nevn heard ol thosc mo\tes hut
they're enormous hJts. II you gt::t ~ome
lhlng good, and it\ v.hat th.: puhlt<: IN<Jnts
II) \C:C, .111d tl rhe .,rudw, th.: J1~tnbuh1r.
geb hchtnd rt and rromoh:s 11 enou~h.
word of mouth wtll make 1t a hit. One
guy g,)CS to .,c:e It and tells hJS lncnJ.
B1\ N: !7-wt 'r 11 hat happt'tll'd, j(n e r-
ilmple. 1111h R.HDI::RS OF !HE
ffiST·IRK
STAN: Of <.:our'>C. :"Jnhndy C\t:r hnrd ol
rhat ""br\Jy e\er ht:<Jrd 11l ") f.\K
\\.\RS. hdure 11 came n11t
JA707
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page215Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
14 of 20
"I was always a little ashamed of myself that I didn't

.!'dunlvd "I !lll,dlth.!t I ,J,tJn't !11'-t q:ill
,!nd Tdkc J !l\c·1 dll 1<11ill1!} i1n'.d> <lf
:r,, '1\<'' ;,·~<'I '''flll·lillllt:: Bu1 .1ppa1L'nti\ :1
!) \ '\.: /ii i /;, IJ;tncd ,;!11 l!lL' ,dtnv ,Ill\ \\,l\
1,1, 111 "II!!!'!! rh, 11 1N I I.! \I ! \I 1 N- [)_\ \; fr>, I '~'<' /Jf(/1/1 thll! )(.}( j,_ A lfl• I
l!tJ/1'1\\ '1'/W, 1\ i''•'!c/t'l/ltf d'l<f i/1 lta1 h•ut, !,nntllt(, rei/flo!! uf 1'\ en !Inn;:
told ,,t n·cn , ''1!11< -h ,,JJ, , ,,/it-, 101' /J,, •11 /1111 fYt'fll mr,,h ll!llor~' 1h11r
1n nh.u'
;'1'11111( l:;•,,,/ u·, <)'lir'f! -"i),-\_,;[!u\l'l<l:gnPretthecdu'>t: 11\

:--1 \"'r,; ()\; 1\u!\d<"!lid. ,111d \\,1~ ;UJ .1 \U\ ddiJuJit 111111)! 1"1 rrw I d<Jn·! v.arH
PI i"(ii !kl.!ihc' \.\ lkll !he\ tuid Ill< !" nl<Jkc .J htg 1'-'Ut: ul Jl I don't t'\~·n
\-l.,tnl tndJ\ct;\,ILtntc-I!,,HJ!ho:truth 1!\
· \.,,r'"'h ·, ~<1ii1J! Hi 'P;'IId lh,d' Hut <~ \VI\ unpk;J\,Inl thmg
l•h'\ 1\.· ,c-l!t!lg \I ell !),\.-..: I illltll!./1/t'. he<tiiH•' 11'1i 11orked
D.\"'r,': lnd {!( \ ,Ju/1/~ 11 :,,,, t111d ldl.-1'1 rugdht'r fur H'rlfl
11 , h'<lf'O rltdn ilwrn STAS: 'lc.1h I d<Jn'! nen l!~c ralkln!!
~~~~~~,\~W~ '1 ~
'"'JA'\; lh,d.,llf:,ht ,l!ld','\.Ct\h~·dl 1\h,> .!hlltl! d
flH\'-tl\{.'tll ,,·rnl' t<'> l<~e til;:r11 \\!lnll )!u [),\,....,: /)11\c Ara/i •trlfllnimrtUft'llllild
In ,,>)1\ll'-h<Hl\.. L'd!)\Cillllllh d!l.J tflctL'\ !'!>// that \<'<1/'S OJ;'u In COH/('S rv"
.tn ,Jiildpaph .,\'~,l•HL I "~cm get murt· FFRI!LH' tt,i lw puh/tlht'd 10/IT ort-
,, > ~"
ttl
<d tho~L tn <~tHugr;,rll than <!!1\thmg !Una/ p!ut \lllofl\15 /or FA .VTAST/C
!);\,...,: Jn;/ 11/ illilfll' 11\ 11 Jlt'NII/Jfi!'III rot R ::1
tori!! un good \IotA It\ '1har n·en-. STA~: Oh. I lwpe he \il\l'Ll !I
hodt ai~>u\ 1 Hll!ltc,/ 111 the on,;utui rtU/1 DA~: /If jJrmted II and t/ If t'\'t'r comt's
~~
0/ i/W 1 U/1)/1 I liJ' m a dl\, usnon or sotnctlunK. thm
"iT·\.\: lthl ,\'. ,t nld!tL'l nl pndc ,Hid ( learh d1mn thm rou dej/tu'd all the '/?,'7,. ! . :.
~~:m~::
~,!!i.,!:Jdlun. J
1<>\C il:J\!!11;' them 11\~·\L'il rharanrn. 1 ou de_~·crlfwd thnnand thtlr
IJA:"o.: ·4m/ 111<'1 J/ he arou11d /ur,•1·er /JuerrelallollllllpS unJ H'hat the1r penon·
(-,,nn, hool..' !llrmwre!r deli'rtr>rfllt' all/It'\ are
S L\:'\: One I htll~ th,H !'rn hJ pp~ Jhuut h STAN: I d1d that v.nh a!J ol them. I don't a.~~·
! hat \\ r '1 c f'utng !o do the <..;1hcr ·-.urkr 1n J...t1<n\ v.hy I ~ated the I·A~IASfl(. /T''S /1 I
th;n imm, ,jfld I ,Jiway' klt tllat the t (){ R one. hut noho<l~ ner thought
."''I!\ I R \LR FHt \cflC\ th;lt! dtd v.nh tln"e thin!!' wouJJ amount ttl anythtn~
John llusct'ma 1~ 1HW ul the g:tc;Jtnl or an~ h11d~ v.ould t:arc about them. \ll I
()\\ 111).! U1d 11 anJ l threw them a\l.ay, I did that
tnor\' \u l:1\ drll\tHJ... llun to 111) ~!nne' \\l!h c\l'r\ hnok Wl' dtd_
1/ (}rt~hll'r.) I JthtthtHJ).dtt thn \\t.·rc,uch f)A.'i: So 1!' rou el'ct II'Qilf to tltrotf prot!(
hctutdullwo\..,_ ;1nd the !;Jet that tilc~··rl' 111 1011/f'l>!!ih \jar t', If .i' 1/wre.
~·J\!lt-' [0 h( If) tiL: \L\S!f R\\OKI\S STA.,: \\dL hlo\ .\our heart l'rn g_I;Jd
lnrma! rvail\ l'\Lttul nw \tlU ll'!lllndnl me
DA :\: I! In did il toke 111 lung to du DA,''i: {!,,, orh,·r rhmJ..; I \111!/ll'd tu tall..
\f U?l f'l ',;.jSiiRHOHf....\'.lii<•UI{h' H 111 tl/1' /inurr'!i/ coiiii<T f't·egot a
iihr,lif
I ,,,,uf,j haH' t/l"lll{ht ;OIIIt'i'odt 111111/d \ii/IOir/rJ /!!!i\ am/ f\·c got tlu•
fill\'{' >Old /If I t'rlf I JJ.;(I/.; iJl rhar and I
>/It !1/ har.iott·,·! ;/un/.. lto,-J 1,1 rn1<i, (lf/1/r' hoof, 1 Au/1
_<., J \\: { lh. ! liHnk tl \t>.>i-. 'tt', 1'.•1\\ \u iu.la1 uri' m 1hc111. tlllt'rliC/In-11 · llut I
IC,di!l' th<!tll\<: f11;!1f.l'll'-. r~·,dl\ lh<:f<.' )<ill ".;n,/~·r. 11 1111111: .{J,,J., rnuh'nht{l fUll
J..r;o\1 H·, nnh IW\'11 lht''.<.' pd'>f k\\ '.t".r:·, ilt;lll!; th!rr\ 1<11111'/hu;g Jan!>oi 1 /1/..t' !111'
ilul J!l\ ,,! i\h: ,,,ml,, ,!fr hcn;c d<!JJ(' m rhnt tj!t'fli/1111.; ,, {u/ ,,/ 11/nlln "n them' !.1
h .• Ji t'\f'•.'!hl\t lu1111.1h \\l'.!t' lll.lk:nf! ;frt'i"t' iJIJI'H lfrJj<I'I/J/fl <riii!JI/1; llf'' jJ,I
•\, .111d llJ•hkh <~tid li1111~- i1kr tho~: !t ~ 1<11 i<'<JJ ill/! !!lOr!''
1«•<1\.. ,!11!Jdc l•ll pi Ppk I•• l"l',Jil/<: Jlidl "'f.\.': \\'t'il ;t\ illll'IC"<tlnf.' th.tl :-uu
'ih'll- h ·q) rnudl ill I• lc'•d dnd Lll'~Hi'U'Ill -li<J;dd -,;t\ th.1t. ht-cdu,,· I'm );Pill~ !n
!<1: t!w~,· -.d;Wr h lu ~h.r:,lllc'l\ !1c.1d <1 ,.,lil:llllfll'<.' I'll ,t J •lliiHLJ tlll!1 cdkd
J) \_\: lnd i·if, J., rh,,n 11 lu·•1 1 ,,!, •ton,,d tiw .\rncll;HI Srl'lt I·<~UtHI,tttDn ! h~·
\fJr\-cl ''II 1!<1(' 1,11111~. ),;JI;~',f<i\ 1/1 ,,nnnl\'.ltl· I'm lw.tdtn~ ~~ )!<ll!l,f: tn he
ltf!/,' rl:c fllt'di !l>wn,un \,,,,;,· ,JI;d Ldikd I ntn1~1:nch :,11 !-ducataln \nJ
l' i!!Jr !;I ~!/'>'I I Ill' If. I< 1!/ '' ,.,,, ill iJ \\ t/\ I'm J!(lltl/:! :n f.'.!lh'l lol).!C1ht.'l ,orne ot !hl'
\,,. !wt rc' til liard,, 1 r'r. till.!,. 1/'< ntl! ,. hlf.Cf!t'~l lldlllt.'' 111 cnll'rt:lltHnenL and
l:or,J,, t·n \h'.ll' )CIHfl!! i<l !JI lol i.tnd \I.J\'~ l\1 lll~d.<.'
_.._1.\\: I!J,~(, .1 HI\ ·n~<.:r~·,:ul~ )Hill:!. k\thiHll,_, .Hld -.·du(,Jtton d' l'\LI!i11).! i<l1
,JrJJ 'd'-1-'-V dh,<i[;dc'h 11!-':li f \\J !lil' lihl i-.~ch ,J'> l>atdlln_.: II' it.' I I'>!Otl ,If rLt_\ ltl).!
I!' ,d\1.1 \ ' lc-)!, \\ i:\ ,, !li J II d'llill: \ ld, \) !'<!Ill\'\
d: W;: !!it,' I ',\,i' d:\1,1\' I l·'ii,· :HI 11 ilt.'ll 1,111 Ill\' nr; 'n , c>!llll' h<hJi, '·
comics 88 interview JA708

Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page216Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
15 of 20
~L\N J.n·:
take a flyer on writing novels or movies or something."
§
c.
<>C~ AJ.i.D /JPP..,elq ~4U~

fi4C~''
£'omics 89 interview
JA709
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page217Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
16 of 20
PI HLhiiLJ.I:
"The Silver Surfer I did with John Buscema is the greatest

STAY WHERC: YOU ARE,
!NTRUOER' .' ::;u~R EI"~DE.C·>,
OR 01€.' '
"~·1>--
1
I
JA710
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page218Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
17 of 20
"'I\'! I U
GALACTUS SNI~ ....

VIRTUAlLY A WdA'ttl
UNTD ITSELF/
SUPREMELYA.fMIIJ/
·;uP~Ef.,ED'
P{)Wi!IU{)/
1: fhe Sliver
Surfer\ liNt
llpJM-arance, F. F.
#.-ll. l%6, by Lfe,
Kirby and Sinnott.
Z: From Silver
Surfer! 'iolo book,
Issue 1. 1%8, by
tee', Buscem• 11nd
Sinnott. J: S.S. #18
(thto htsl iMIUe),
1970, by Lee, Kirby
11nd Herb TrlmJM-•
..a: From EF. #122.
1972, by l.u,
8tHCema 11nd
Sinnott . .5: S.S.
hardcover novel,
1973, by tee, Kirby
and Slnnort. ti:
S.S, .,e-.;,.illd hard·
w,·e-r, "JudRment
Day.~ PHIS, by Lee
and Hus.ama.
JA711
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page219Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
18 of 20
"Comics are the only things that young

h,v,a:;~ I1\' c, 11ll!L hr 111" ~ d rl' ;1 hnu! Ih..: 11nh !ht• old ,,n;•1 ,ht,,f I If/ I II N \ Sl.\'"': ! dtln't ~il"'' 1\ll\ I 111'h hl'
th111~' thdt ·.c:t\ ~,1ung r-:ork tolJ,l\ \~d! S·lrt H/HI I 11.\f\(, !'tl'l/ l'ul '-l<~llld dl.Wf!t' 111~ llltlld. hur that\ lh•:
lc'dd <1l tiH:il ol\1!1 1ulltlun. 1.\Hihltl\ hnng !lw 1/ltHI-..L'! lw1 fr<ll:llll'llrrd .''II•' ,/tf!t'f''''' '.-\.,_]\ 11 ;(,jflJ; I Hill I''"' Dill,.''' hq.-'!!:l"\1
tu!d tn \nd 1\c Jt~c-u,\<:d thh 1\1th thrmn }('1, I !l'rram/1 ht'/"' th111·, tru1· ldiL <I lid j -llll drll I lhlJ\~ I lit' riLlll I'.!
111.111\. tll.lil\ CJilL'<Ihlt\. ,di tl\l'l tl\<: ht'tllllH' rhvt ~'''rnt'' 1il1' o J,,, JJ,·/1. lc~ 1 ~L'Illlh ]]!:',(II\\ .JO, )-:<lt\J .ll ;(!I(\ .l\ hl' I~
c'ou1Hn C Ollll!.
hnol<\ oer•..: .1 \<.:r\' 1/'t' ·1111' f>ondlfirll of iJ I,.,. /lr!/..u <~1:\IIV.<~JI-.. Hl\ld\<>111'- tlcl.lntkpid
\,Jiu.drk lillll\lun. he,;·...tthl' tht:\ ·n: ttw S/'//l/: R-.H -1-\' gror'hr,· nu\t'l ur '"'lit '> ltlJol 1 II Ill\ ,IlK] '.\'<.' 11e\ J nJ ,It 1" l 11\ >11\J tdJ
OIW 'lll'dllllll tb.11 ;_J!Ju\\~ l<:r ttl tlun.ti: lilt!! th<-11 ' ,1 \II If\ tht ••ugh rtcltHl''> .l\ u.dl d'
Uj\l,lll' <:1\jO\Ill<.:llt Wl(h n.'JJmg ~TAN: I Y.oulJ lo1c 11' Bu1 "'!Ill' [knpiL- dll\hP{J\ j\o• <.:\Cf kll()l,l,l\
0-\:'\: / __ ,,],ill haH' '>flO~t·n w .Stne- Oltkll .1hnut till'< [),\~: Ot!t' ,,ntdd tlun!t u SI'//Jf_R-
."11-\~: )oJII i<tHHI, \~hL'Il \Oll gtl [0 .1nd I thin~ I nH!111Jolll.'d 11 In h1m onn· \1 ·I \ l'l lllf"' uuJ!,hl 10 /oo~
m,n·w nr
\ciHIU} .wd HHI,I'L' \tliJ !0 fL';J(.] J. :.chnnl year~ Jgo. ;Jt\J l Jn nnr ~fld\1 ht\ ll.'d'>oll. ItA,· /lilA-,,, diJJll !till rlunA··' /!11 <<111, I
htHII< L'\Ln tl1t\ a gn::..~t \Chnul hook but he ha\ ht'l'tli..jiJOlt:J .J\ ;:.J\'I!l!!,lhat tht· .l.not1 11 '1 hurd ,jnd !hi' ll'iJI- /)//!to uwd
\<HI Ju 11 n:lu..:tanth. ''OIL I\<: ~oil to n::H.l tv. o d\i.lrill:tl'J ~ he 'II nl"\ n Ur;H\ d~ 111 ~H l' 10 Jil>H' lum 1111 !ht· ltB/1. /lott· l{JJJn·/J!tt'
tim Jamn thln)l.." Ht1t kid'> lo\C to n..><Jd Sp1dcr-Mun and Ur Sllan!!,l' and, rt't'fll', 1n u ttBt'. /1 J<<-ll"t' fum" n·vl
nHllll'> And vou L'<Jn't unJ..:r\tanJ thl' DAN: Jig H< ,, lltmt /iliiWUI onn f>t-'f.\IHW{/1\- iJ\' <l ,-/wra1 /l'f.
'>llillt'~ 'Mthnut ro:admg the wonh It
t!ll<:\ \'Oll <~ L..tt·dtty J.t rc:.Jdtng. I he more
\OU J11 11. the more lank you lxcomt\
the more Mkpt )tHJ hecnme

1).\N; I 1Jh1111-1 wiJ on,• o/lht:' /inlll'orJs
I ,·,wid rciJd wu.1· "mt'lt:'orite, uJdh·
1'//ilflgh
s·rAN: (/.iluglllcr; \i,.dl, that\ right.
•\nd .~~I\<!\, _\'<lll equate enjoyment wJth
1\ h.J!\ on the rmntcd page. :\'ow. noboJy
~IJ\~ V.llh OJilllV• lon:H:r m they may
~~-~~ v.11h cont1c~ but dm:c you bccontc
.l•krt dl n:adtng. }1\U go on to n:admg
<>I her t!Hng". too.
And thi;, 1~ ~omcthmg I v.-u,n't av.-arc
nl111 the t)t:glllfllrlg. I don't w<~ntto makt:'
11 ~dtmd 11,1..,. we ruhiL~hcd ctH1llt~ tn
<lrdn 1<1 ~·ducatc thl:' world. It wa~ Jll
l·ntcrLlllllllt'!Jl mcJJum. but w\.' luund
nttt that. Jtlq p.;nphcr;d!y and inc1dcnt~
.dh. the~ wcm to be ~cn1ng ;1 great
fHnpmt· 1n an age when kid\ are glued to
th~· "<..:rccn. SuJJcniJ. then.:\ one thmg
til.1111 111<1~~- them W<~nl to read. Jnd
tii.Jl <llll' 1h1n~ 1\ d COnlK h011~ ~ov.. f
~L-llil 111 b~.: <1 IHtk lat altl'lU irnm ymH
q 11<'~11<111
D.\:-..: \, • lhJI ·~ '' lwr~ I ~~ <-1.1 ,i:lf/111( .
.... l.\.~: \\dl ~tJ\ n·Jll1ng
v.,wttu k~·l·r
c<lli\ll''>. or I'-!! f1L'11pk''
JU'\ !ht: <lldl:t
I ilr~c ,, ,,,mL'tlllfll:' ahuut the ha.-,K
, l>ll\lt-ho"h l~lflll;J\ that I thtnk ~uung
l''""l'k 11dl ,!111,1\\ !tnd irllt:IL',Itng I hJt
,, 1lw l (lfllhi!l.l[lolr\ uj \1 olflh .!!1!.1 fll..:ll!!C\
.111d ,,!lur. .J nd 11 hen 1 ou .Jdd 1he denwnt
<>I l.mt.l\\ 11htch ._!II <lllr .,tlprr h,·rn
h .. ,,l, ll:tiL' anJ .IL'IHIII Jnd 'u'f1l'f1'l'. I
\htnl-. .1 tllo>li'·.Jild h'dl' lr"m no\1, i-.1J'
11dl h,· lc-,JJt!li! c'll!llTL'' fill·\ Ill<!\ h-r
1111 ;.",· dt ll•L tl,l<lll.d '- < •lllll' '•r h1 dn)!t .1ph1~·
•I •1i1,1 ktl<>l\• 11iJdL hut fli11!1l r~·"rk
ltl IL',id L\LI\1!\)-! \[llill-,, .111d 1 t/Ji!ll._
:h \ ,;1·.1.1"" ;\ill
<>II kli<>\1. IlK\ \did \.I)W!l tl'iV\1\lill\
, , 1: I'••' ,II• of)\!. lil.ll \I ,h Till· <.'llJ nil ill' h< i<ll-,
p:•l'lt•-1\illl' hth,ll<''' \\,·11, hc>11l' .!ll"
llll')!L'I tihtil l \<_'I
)) \.\: /n,J !h>'l'<' <II{ 11)<1(1' IIILJ!;'IJ:IIIt'\
JA712
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page220Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
19 of 20
people will read without being told

~L\."'j: \h'<>itllch lh<.:rO:II,I'·'ILt\"t'n \\II h I!. !Jc h.1d I< t l"il 1\ Ill 111~ • 1\\ ll >I\ k '11/lt'l" (Ill it <'r'\ II rl/1/,j \!II I' I 0/1 II fH/ff:'
',tc-1..:\ ,lf\1\ur\.. th.L\ ~~.l~ fli~l h,<.nttdril \:lll \11~· 11.1\ ,\ll <tllh( dtL'.\ ,d\\-,1\~ ,,•//-J t •IJ/Idi'IH r'
{) \'i: I 'td 1he 111 II< lr hr·l\• ,-n f!uA ,, <111d .dkdul lht: 11.11 I 1\IUic' llt~· ,1\llk:'- ! :-..f\'t: It'·'·''· I thin\... c~ tl,lt11r:d n•J+
J,,J/11 f?,,,,l!/11 ,Jhl•llf Jllr,,un ,,,- '''1111,, 1\<'llld h.hl' l'lc'l\ htl Lli di.i\o1f011L' <lit tilL' 111\EOTL ,\T\\IJ(l\~ \nJ .b !dtl '•l!d, Wt;
rlw \f'//)f_U- \I I\ nut' itullt;t'lir,· HI/\ dr.il\111~\ lh<il ] 1<~"1-.L·d It •>II dk 1\clttid l\.l\c \1n·q d<'ltl)l th.: ,anw 1l11ng
loll/ II<JIId/(',/ liJ,. ( ltdf/J( It I Ill dill II(/) ~-\,j'IC~':<d\ . .ill til~· fl'"'' ,111J ''' l"1th \'.ttl! Ditku, <Hil\ 11 ,,,,,dd haH' hn:n
~ L\."\: '!tnk h11 1 h;tJ t•• \ \ I l k ~rl<kr 1)-\:"{: \'o tl1111 ht'lt•,-d rfr,. ,., ,,}ulf<•l!•>/rhr' I Ill •I ~· l,!J.IJ lt.d
\l,tn. cl! l'dL'f l'.tr~~·r.. 1~ tlh•!l~h h(· \O.;t~.l ,I!!HUtf!'f }utlll<'r<' ''ldhon; lrniii/•JI '" () \:": 11/J,J/ o~hout ''/it'll 1011 t n'tllf"r/
ht1k m<~r..: gl..unrl\11\h lrilHl ll.~d ,\l\\.!1~ II !Ill /1 u/ 11 !lt'rd 11/rnl,ll, l•ul till> • •rl . 1/ \{lldtT· \full ,md (IJI'f" hun th,!l't" {hnn·n'
J tll\t.: I I 11\U t1L'L' ,(< l! tL~ \ 't\ ,tl\1 ,(\ ~- hili )\( f'lnflt'd IIuf,•tn..' I o/tt<.Jl' rlr<'IIO/hl 1lto1T f!I!Ht'f\ llt'ft' <1
iud dlllk' ,j !<l( <II thL-tll \11d II 1\,\' IJ,11J '"if.\~: llut·-.. li)!ht lit' i· no/ IIIHiillt'filhlr-. of
111r t' /•,tftJ/11 t'
tor lol/111 (II dr.t\-1. ,(I \1,\f,IL!_~·r IL)l<l lid~ D-\;\:; h •t't'Hir'd !lli!llr!/1 !<• 1111'
tl !11, , utlfl<' r >n rhr <•thn hund he:..· puH·nfl,f
jlh\ \ll\ll ,ll<'t.lgL' g_U\, '<11\lLI\!1\L. )<Ill //err' !w "''' •fll;!lhtfl\ <I lo'fl tt'l'l ,·nn 11 J!h 1u hi! \t•rr. \'t'r\ dramuttt' (rom
'-nuv..'' E1Ltl th"u.~h. 111 1hc hcgmn1ng. •n'c' llf(' 1;'<'1111~''' 111h/ h.- lt!id the hotn~ 11m 1• 111 wnr .\o Jwi got l'!dnrnthlhllt'\'
l11hl\ ):!<\\ \Cf\ Lltl~l' [<l '\1<:\L'\ "-l!iL'. ,h 1\ ,,-o· "' '''"'t' f,•l'flllli' <'t•'ll oft,•r /r,· !;'ol /or !he r•fol ,,,., j( t' hut he i a/.10 .!.:!Of thl:'
tll<llt:J ,\l,,n~.lor hun t<• h~· tll<lf~' rl'IJ\o.::J '"JWf /'"" ,.,. Out .J/It'r <1 "lid" 'IU<'It, /tlltltl.ll dt'll/t'rlf o( reu/1~· tr:l.H \'lrength.
NOW lr..I FULl. COLOI\!
Hl'rr ~nd
prnious pal!:e:
fwu namplt'l nr
John f{umita \
nJ\t'f art. l'he
lir-;t io; from hi!i
Jirr..t i\\Ut' o(
\_\l.\/.l.\1(;
"PIDER-\1.\"'.j,
I~Ml. a linr
dra,.,in~~:: thr
·tthrr ~ paintinll
from the "-t'Cond
~~~~~"'of the "''-'r·
'111'1.1 o.·omit' I }IE
'PFCl'\(l-
1 \H. '-IPilHH.·
\I.\'{, 1')(11'1_
comics interview
JA713
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-1 509510, Page221Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 301
20 of 20
SIAN I , [ [
"I think characters have to have some vulnerability."
(apt a in America ( \htt -.,aliHf!t"r), kind the Red Skull (Scott l'aulin) renew thf'ir b.ttlt whm the Skull kidnap.; Tom Kimh•ll. I~
prf"liident of lht l'nit«< Statr-s,
.... ; I
"
\
lr.<l•
I~
,,, "
rli
II
rhLi"<
''llilf. ,lul,lcl'-i'•
''"- I 1!, ~
llll,·rc· lw\ l!.t[lrcJ. I th111k rn..! -,uh\\a\
1Fifl'il'i dlld lhL'[L·\ \\:.J\l"l U>ll\ln~ ur
\nU .tt!JIIL he· 1\.1\rd til·.· llr1:1.. llho [U\1
dt '>r1p•·r ~rl,t!1 <11 '<>1\l<.'<>fll'

[<>l.lii\ Iii 111:• •l<i<,L: I
"'
~1. II '.\ d'
"
1 ht' !).\': Nigh!. I rom·111ht'r !he \lu1h'r
tiH<.:II rt <lll
lk h.tU !11 ,!1,1111 .• ,td l<~tt. th,· n·.1tkt.
ll'.t'-'1' :ttc\ ltt:,rl11 d"t.kd 1" !,'..-! hr\r- l'iillll/t'f f!/01 \>.l'IL' 1)(1[ ~llf\" \\i\c(iKI i~c·'d h•' .1hic l<l d<l
t<JI1tl\" :,q ';lljVIIiUil ',,.,t\• •I I" h,llt' .'-.lA,"i: Hl· h.t~J to !Jft ,,ltnc:thtng it ,\r tll•t It 1.-1,1~ tlr-.t '" dLttlUII'
'-<>1\lc'[ ill I:\.' l1'1 lilt' [,".IIi< I [II\\' I I I .Jh,1:11 J)A:'\: lhiJll\111 inl(itn.llhle 'L'\IIIl'Jll'l' .1-. lthtn~ 1<\lt.ll nc·t ltnd m <t
\hollil Iii' ,ji•'IH'l'l, ll)\l l'l ilh' tl:d~[ ST.\ "i: ·\nd -"'tnt: dHJ Jt <llc·r d ,nit:\ •II l'ldllll
l'ililt:ttlt til ill'' -,It' If' l)Jtlo.Ot.', I ,lid. t!Hl l'·'~t\ til lt11n "tral!ttll)! -\nd I th111l.. 1).\:'\o: I (('/)/l'l'l"l'f !11<1( 1•111 \ I T ' , . , ) !
tloh•~<.l\ \\llu'-, l'\t:l' \Ct:ll th<.Jt h,h 1)<.-'l'll "iL\'\:1 ~!l<ltl \n1h•w.J1 11lw,n,·rrc.1d
.~hk I•> lnr~rt rt It V.d" )11\l hL'JUtdul II ILh llc'\l'l lur f'Uitc'tl II
0
comic.Y 94 interview JA714
CaseCase 11-3333, Document 74,
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 9
EXHIBIT 32
JA715
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 9
Stan Lee Replies

'
to Eric '
Leguebe
ERIC LEGU!:BE I 1978
Pr~vrou1ly Urlpubilshed. Trwscnbe<l by

Jeff Mclaughl,~. Pnnled by permisSion of
'>ton L~e.
([dllor'< Note- \tan ts tape recording his amwers to que.<t1ons to be

tr~n~uibfd by h1s secrct~ry)
Okay. Martha, I'm going to try again on this mterv1ew. . . Here we go_
The first question·
A Spider-Man was bom about sixteen years ago whe~ I dec1ded to do a

( haracter ·11·ho could be like a reaJ human being who ;~ddenly got super-
power. I wanted a character who was terribly real"bc. Who got allergy
attacks, ingrown toe~arls, worry about money, not be succesolul wilh
g1rls. In ;hort. somebody with whom the reader coulc relate.
JA716
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3013 of 9
78 Si/\N ifF. CCNV>R.\ALC"\
B- 'ipidcr-Man IS spe~1ally 1mp01tant in my point ot view iJecause he

became our very mo'l popular and best-;dHng character, and he 1eem<
to r~pre>ent and to typ;fy tPe entrre !ine of Marvel comic<
C Yes, I've seen the <artoons done lor lV that"'" r,ow bflng oe~n in
fnnce. Bull h<l.v~n't really worked on them. We merdy 1iccn>ed them to
ather cornpan1es to do I th;nk they tried to k"ep the I pint of Spider-
Man Of course, i don't think they did •t as well as •I we our1elves had
done trem
D. I don't under>tand ll%que>tlon. I'm 1orry I can't 4"'wcrit.
t I dor't really 1mag1ne ~cw partners for Spide,-Man. I feel a character

l1ke Sp1der-Man has to be a loner, ,md I don't expect he really ever wi I
h"ve steady partners in the future.
f' One day Spider-Man had been the friendly enemy of Superman
because we d1d o book in partnership with DC Comics called ~ptdcr-Man
ver>U< >upcrman 1n which the two of them me~t and iight ~nd then
become fnends_ ll Will just an experiment: we thought it would be an
intereshng th1ng to do, but I don't thrnk we'll ever do it agam.
G_ I th1nk the film done about Spider-Man which has shown 1n Pans"
fairly good, whith 11 based on a television show wh1ch was drme here in
the Ur.ited States. I don't think it's as good as 1t really should be, but t's
not as bad as it mit~ht have been.
H. I th1nk that IV and c.nema are purls of the med1a and methods of
communication just as comic books are. Just as ballet is and JUS! as opera
is. I think every form ot art is a form at communication_ They are all dif-
fFrent, but they all try to do similar tl11ngs. I think the spirit of the sty.e of
Spider-Man or any charocter could be captured by TV or the cinema. It
very olten isn't captured becau<e different people do the movie than
have do~e the lwok or the com1~ book or the novel or whMever 1t is. But
to answer the question specificaJiy, Y"'· I think 1t is po>~ible for a movie
to keep the ;p1rit of a comic book.
(Ed Note. For some reason Stan starts to rdentify the que>tJOn< using
number5 JIJ>tead of letters.)
1. I became an author of comics accidentally, actually. I never really

wanted to be in the comic book industr; or intendGd to be. I originally
wanted to be an actor, then a lawyer, then an advert1smg man. But I
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heord there was a JOb open rn comrc; when I wa~ yuung, thinkrng it
woulrl be a kmporMy JOb, but I've stayed ever srnce.
2_ No, I haver,'! gone to any sort ot artlst school nor have I ;tudied wnlrng
except when I was rn hrgh srhool when I took an Engi<>h wurse, JUSt as
everybody doc did_ I guess whatever i know, I've been self -taught.
] Yes, rnde<"d, I feel udmiralion for other ,'\rtr>ls of cornc; and the \O-GIIIed
!rne "rl> bt)!h from today and oi the past It •Nould take me forever to say
whrch ones. I adrnrre lire succedul comm~rcral artists ot today. I adm;rc
Jack DJvis, I odmrr~ Clwlre SchulL_ I admire Leroy Ni,·man, Salvador Dali.
Picasso_ I <tdmrre anybody who rs good ,,_t .my\hing I don't feel that fine art
"more important than commcrcral art. In somf ways I feei rt rs harder to be
a conrrrrfrl-I.J.I aJiist than to be a tine artrst, but my admiration extends to
anybody who doe> anylh1ng wf'll, whether he be an artrst or a pianist or an
actor or a shoemakeL
4_ Yes, I would haw to an~wer the same way I feel admrratron for wnt-
~rs of ymterday and today, and agarn \hal goe1 for so many of the good
rme< 1adrr>ire .. _ my favorite wrrter ol all lime was Shakespeare But I
was aim a fan of Edgar Rice Burrough>, Arthur Con~~ Doyle, Vidor
Hugo, Omar Khayyam, or perhaps I should say Edw<Jd fitz1;emld who
translated him. Kurt Vonnegut, Robert E. Howard_ I j~st enjoy any good
wrrtef No, I do~·t have a preference for ooence-tiction authors_ Oh,
<orry this rs quc>l:ion 5.
~ No. I don't have a preference for mence-fiction authors I enJOY them

as much as I enjoy any other aulhors rf they ore good. I gueso my
favorrtes are Ray Bradbury and Arthur Clarke, and I must say I lhrnk
Childhood'> End by Arthur Clarke is pmbably one of the greatest sdence-
fictron stones, m~ybe one of the greatest stmies that one could read_
6. Yes, when I w.;s a young boy I drd enJOY comic strps and comic
books. and I enjoyed, well, again, I enjoyed them all, the ones that
nobody would even remember today. I enjoyed one called Red Barry,
one called -';kippy-he was one of my favorites by Percy Crosby. I Irked
The Phantom. I liked Trm Tyler's Luck I just !iked them all The humorous
ones, the serious ones. I liked Mandrake the M~gician. As tar as why-
it's hard to know why you like anything, they just gave me enjoyment.
Oh, Mart~a, by the way, in question five· "Do I have a preference for
scrence-fiction authof'S?" I'd lrke you to also mention Harlan Ellison as
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one of my fa'IOri\es By the way, I sure hope th"t thiS is coming out okay.
I'll shoot myself if this doesn't work_ Okay, Quf<tlon l.
!. Nu, today. I don't have a chance to read comic books_ I'm so busy
traveling and wnt1ng my own material and do1ng the millions ot other
things I ,;eem to do, so to answrr the question, I don't have time I cer-
tainly wsh I d1d have time. bu:what I do 1s thumb through the books
gu1ckly. lluok <tt I he drawings, I try to read a >emence here and there so
tflall (an ;;tay lam,iiar to <.orne dcgwe Nith whafs being doM _ As far as
which ones, certainly I try to rf'~d mostly Marv~l\, but I try to !nok
through the mmpehtion to >e<· what's ~appening.
3 01 cour;e I odm1t the 1nflu~nce of science-tidion writers. I admit the

influence of all writers. I ft•el that everybody 11 mtluenced by everything
he reads, or see>. or hears. Anyth1ng that touche\ uo has to rnlluente U>-
9 I ceolly don't understand the quest1on, 1 rEally don't know what he

means by ··;s my work with Marvel part ol the space-operJ._, so I can't
1mwer that question.
10. My method lor the construction of the >cnpt cons~ts oi di>cussinfJ

the story w1th the arti<t and having the ortiot do the pencilled arr on h s
own, drawing whatever he wants"' long a1 rt tdis the >lory we've dis-
cussed_ I would thfn put 1n the dialog~e and the captions and ind1cate
where the dialogue balloon~ are to be olaced and where the captiOn'> go,
:wd then the script goes to the mker-----lfs lettered of course_ Then I h~ve
it proofread a~d that's it_ I pmofread •t myseif if it's my own story
(fd Note: Stan starts reading out the next three questions he's being
iisked)
11- How long does it take me?

I used to do one complete coMic 111 a day on an average.
12. Do you have a special pace for the wnt1ng of a story to another one?
I'm not sure I understand \he question, but actually I don't remember that I
me<l lo wnte one story differently than another. They all took me the <ame
~cngth of time, and none were really any more difficult or more easier than
the others were. To me one story is like arother. Maybe the ones that uled
archaiC dialogue may have been a l1ttle slower. For example, rt might have
taken me a lillie longer to w~te the d1alogue tor Thor or the Silver Su!leror
Dr Strange than somebody who spoke totally in a modem idiom.
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1 _l Do I u:.u,111y go from a hero to another one?

w,, I never hild any pmbl~m The minute I frnrshed one \tory, I would
wr~te mwth~r <lory. It nrwr bothered me to go from one hero to
another. ll never bothered me to go from~ sew nee !ictEon to a we1tern

ur to a Mrlli~ the Model or to,, horror >lory or to a detect,ve \tory or to
d humor Amy No, 1t didn't bother 'IW al ,,II
14. The cuper vi!lam; are almoot a1 important. as lhe superhemcs--d

gond su;wr v'lla1n can muke the 'tory rmeresting, and a 'Neak iUp<er vd,
l~rn makco 1he swry v~ry dulL I ca~'t say what the bdJnce '''·There are
some super vrll,lrr.s, ~rkc Dr Doom, who are prnbably more pupulm tkm
'"me ot the sccond-ratr 'uperheroe;. !hen by the s~me toke~. I don't
thrnk th"rP\ ,Jny \IJP~r v;Jiarn as popular a> Sp;der-Man or the Huik So
you c~n'l really answu Ill at qu~stron Or I can't
15. Probably rf I h<td a bit of tendemess for my sup~rrem~s. ;t would be

tor Sp,der·Man because he's the most succe>Sful, and J!so for the Silver
Surfer. whom I've :clways bc>en very par!'al to. But basically lli~e them
pwtty all the same As for ct\ "'Y stones, the only way I could men bon
which 11 my f avort~ story or 'tones " to go back and reread most of
thern, beca~se I've forgmten most of them, because I'V€ wntten so many.
16. Q(u,;on"lly I rn~y reread a story over again_! don't have the \1me to
do rl. The few time> I have, I'm alway> amazed at how good ll seems to be.
I never realized that we were writinl( that good so many years ago I sort of
w«h some of the stones today were done rn the same 'tyle
17_ I thnught I had answered this already. No, I don't have time to read
~omics today.
18 The perfect balance between balloons and drawings is when a draw-

rr>g" very rntere,hng, I try to keep the balloons small. Wlwn the draw·
rng is dull, I try to use a lot of balloons and sound effeci> and anything
el'e on the panel to liven it up a brt. It depends on what you think of the
d:awrnw.
19. No, I don't control the wlo<>_ That's one thing I never paid attentron to.
20. My method of workrng with the authors and artists is to try and be
as fnendly as posS>ble, be as farr as pos1rble, and get ·_he most work out
of them os possible. Let them work as much as possible i~ the<r own
style. Tell them the type of results I want, but not how to obta;n them
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21. How do I expla1n the evolut1an of my heroes·'_ uuhh, ! cdn't

amwer lhJt now, I'd ~ave to wde a whole book to explain that It's just
too dliflcult a quw,tion
22. I really don't know what he means by "How did I creal€ Rus1ian
1~perhcmes?" I drdn'l know we had any R~ssian superhemes. We ar~n't
!JOtng uul of the way to create Rus>ran superheroes. I'm afraid that
ouestion d<W\tl'l make that much sense to me_
23 No, I don't do any >pccial resem(h in <c1cnce, hi; lory, socic.l, or evo-
lution frH rny slnric>_ I never •eally h~d any bme_ That'l one ollh<· rca-
sons why when I would mention a scient,fic dev1ce, I would make up a
~arne for ;t, l1ke a ";upet gamma ray gu~ " only because I don't know
whot a super gamma ray gun LS, and I'm >ur~ nobOdy ~lse does I never
had the lrme to worry about being technically accurate-it was JUS! more
important to get lhe 1ton~s done quickly.
24. Of course 1 believe that comic books are a spenai kind of literature,
just as nove!; are, just as plays are. Thf po1nt of v1ew of drawing ~san
independent art ... of course they are an 111dependent art Comics are a
very spcofic and umque art form, which the more on~ studies therrt the
rnore one can appreciate them.
25 It's e"'ier to assume control as far as go,ng w1th the relationship

betw"<'n Spider·Man, Captain AmPrica, Iron Man, a~d so forth when I
wrote all the stories myself, but now that we have so many writers 1t's
very drflicult It's just up to the editor to do as bert as he can.
26. 1guess the reason lor the American and international success of our
;uperheroes IS the fact that they have 'o many humanisllc qualities that
people all over \he world are able to relate to them, because they're
really similar to reai people, and real people are pretty much the same ail
over the world.
27. Aga1n. it's hard to ur,derstand the question, "[1/1/hat's] the difference
between a das1ical hero ond a superhero?" because many of the classic
heroes were superheroes and many of !oday's superheroes like Spider-
Man ~nd the Hulk I'm sure may tJecome classical heroes. I don't know
what the difference IS Anything that lasts is a classic and that's all, and if
our superheroes last. they'll become superheroes.
28 As far as the d1fference betwee~ the creation of the daily strips and
the comic books, yes, there is a difference. The comics books are easier
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to write because you r-ave more panels fm dialogue. The ;tory keeps
!1owing steadily. Tfle daily ~trips you only have thr~e or four panels. The
first panel has to summarize what happene<i before, the last panel has to
be a sort of diff·hangcr. So you only have oPe or two par.eh in-between
to move the story. it's really much more d;fticult to do a newspaper strip
than a regular corPic book story.
(Ed Note: Questions 29 and 30 are mMmg from the recording. We only
get the la't line of Stan'> reply to what questmn 30 was about.)
30. Maybe <;cience-fantasy stones wrll bern the future what we;iern stc-
ri<>s were rn the past.
31. Are we living in a new golden age of comiC books?

Ye\, t'd !ike to think so_ And I'd like to think of it as the new Marvei Age
of Comics
32. The present phenomeno of nostalg1a fnr com•c books of yesterday

bs been caused by people loving loday\ comks so much snd getting
Interested in comics a~d wanting to learn what comics used to be like.
You only love things in the past when you care about them in the pres ..
ent. tf yow don't love today's movies you won't be interested in old·lime
movies. I think the whole thrng is a tnbute to the comics of today
33 Okay, I'm sorry, but again I can't understand the questron. How do I
.'\ssume the formation of my wntcrs and artists? I don't know what that
means.
34. How do I feel about the merchandising of our superheroes-the but-

tons, hhirts, stickers, gadgetY--and w-e they part of lhe glory of the star?
Well, I don't know ifth~y are part of a glory of a star, but they are good
buslness, and the money helps us to make U5 rich enough to pay better
rates to our artists and writers. I th1nk there's nothing wrong with our mer-
chandis;ng, I think 11 helps to publicize our characters Again, it's only done
because people like our characters. When you like something, you want
to wear a !·shirt with its picture on it. You enjoy wearing little jewelry that
represents tlw character, you enjoy reading rt in other fmms, playing
games based upon it I think it's a very good thmg thar we have a lot of
merchandising_
35. Of course there are some artists that I wmk with more easily than
others, but I don't l1ke to mention that I don't like to mention favorites
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'"thing> I iike the leo\t-<t's not lair to the others I wtl! s;,y, though. tha:
the quality that I ask first of an artist is !hot h€ b~ a good artl't. rhat he
be a good ,;r(r\t .md draw the kind ot storic> tr.<>t people will wunt to
read_ H~ doesn't h,>V~ to be a p~rsonllrke, he doeln-t haw to be uny
spf(.WI age or nmionalrty (Jf wx or anylhng_ The most rmporhrt gualrfi-
catiun is iha\ he be a good wm'c 1trip artist Fir,;t and toremo>L
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EXHIBIT 33
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IF ONE IS
GOOD,
FOUR WILL BE
BETTER
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MARVEL Comtcs wasn't always Marvel Comics.

\Vhen I started working there, in 1939, it was called Timely Comics.
I never found out why. And they kept rne so busy that I never had
time to ask. To be truthful, I never even thought 3bout it. It was also
called Timely Comlcs before I started worklng there-and after. But
let's. not get bogged down in the very first paragraph. We have to start
somcwhf:re.
I wns seventeen when I joined the staff at Timely. In those days,
seventeen was a lor younger
~ - ,, than it is now. Today, a lot of executives
at various publishing houseS, movie cmnpanies, and TV networks don't
seern tnuch older than seventeen. But in '39 it was different.
Anyway~ ['m not about to tell you too much a. bout those early days.
This book would have to be twice the size. Besides, if this one sells
well I've got to save something for Volume Two. Suffice it to say that
I started at Timely as staff writer, proofreader. and general all--around
gofer. A few months luter rny two bosses, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby
(about whom there'll be rnore later), parted company with Timely 1
and my publisher, Mattin Goodman ( thafs right 1 more about him
later, too), asked tne to fill in as editor and art director until he could
find someone old enough for the job. \Veil, working in comics must
age a felia real fast because he never did replace me and I've been
there ever sl nee.
Now then, even though this tit::mic tome is about the magnificence
of Marvel, you've got to know a little bit about Timely so that you'll
have the right perspective. We1 ll get to the pictures soon~ I promise.
During the first two decades that I toiled for Timely the comic-
book business was a fairly simplistic operation. If cowboy films were
the rage we produced a lot of Westerns. If cops and robbers were in
vogue wejd grind out a profusion of crime titles. If the trend turned to
love stories, Timely (as well as the competition) became big in ro-
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mance rnngs. We simply gave the public what it wanted-- --or so we

thought.
As for our audience, we nll assumed t-hat our readers pritnari1y be-
longed to the bubble-glltn briRade. Oh sure, there were a few incono-
cl~1s.tic adults here and lhere who might dip into a t'omic book upon
occasion; n.nd we knew we eould nlwnys sell n certain percentage of
copies to servicemen who doted upon easy-to-read escapist literature.
But b::.tsically, our readers rnnged frmn toddlers to kids H1e age of
thirteen or fourteen~----or ~o we thought.
Notice how I cleverly ern ploy the device of repeating the same pro-
vocative phrase at the end of two successive paragraphs? This is to
!c>:t you know that there tnay be more than rneets the eye contained
herein. It's a device I've often used in writing comic-book scrlpts, and
I didn't want it to slip by unnoticed.
Okay. Now that I've clued you in, you know the background of the
comic-book biz. You're almost at the point where the world is ready
to herald the birth of MarveL But first, even as the suspense keeps
mounting, hear with me for just a little while longer as we briefly dis-
cuss the dran1atis personae up to this point.
Who were the people who actually creatf:d t:~nd produced America's
comic books? To answer that burning question we must be aware that
cum]cs have always been a high-volurne low-profit-per-unit business.
Which is a polite way of saying that they never paid very much to the
writers or artist,c;. If tnernory serves me (and why shouldn't it?), I
think I received about fifty cents per page for the first script I wrote
in those early days, Comics have always been primarily a piecework
business. You got paid by the page for what you wrote. The more
pages you could grind outj the more maney you made. The comic-
book writer had to be a comic"·book freak, he had to be dedicated to
comics; he certainly couldn't be ln it for the money. And, unlike most
other fotms of wribng1 there were no royalty payments at the end of
the road ... no residuals , .. no copyright ownership. You wrote your
pages, got your check, and that was that.
Perhaps this little background will serve to explain why the quality
of writing in the early comic books left just a little bit to be desired.
We knew we were writing for kids. (Or so we thought, remember?)
The pay wasdt extravagant enough to attract too many Hemingways
or Bernard Shaws. Even Mickey Spillane, who had free-lanced for
14
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Tinwly brie!Iy in the 1 <J40s. soon gave it up to seek bme and fortunt~
in snmewh<1t different areas.
It wasn 1 t much different for the artists. Their r:Jte of pny was sorne~
what higher than the writers' but it took them longer to complete a
p;lge, so things seerned to evt!n up. As a matter of fact, there were
n1:1ny nrtists who nlso wrote their own stories in those days·-,~~--and who
did the leTtering and coloring as welL I'm not going to mention their
nan1e~ here, since this 1sn't intended to be a history of the comics, but
rather a personal peck nt the origin of Marvel (which we're sure to
~~fot to '10oncr or Inter-- ---honest), nnd there isn't room to mention all
of thern, and those I omitted would never talk to rne again, and 3
fella like 1ne needs all the friends he can get.
\Vell, th~1t's it for nnw, If anyone needs any more b<::~ckground rna-
tt~rltlL see me nftcr class and I'll recommend smne supplen1entary
reading. The big moment is near at hand. You can almost feel a hush
in t-he atmosphere outside. It's as though aH the world is waiting for
the coming oL . The Fc:mtastic Four.
Let rne take you back to 1961. It's heen twenty·two years slnce I
first started with TimPly, nnd I'm still editor, art director, and head
writer there. At the moment, the trend is monster stories, so we're
1"t1rning out a pandcmonious plethora of HEMs and scaly-·skinned
scaries. Jack Kirby, he of Captain An1erica fame when r first started
nt 'Timely, had long since left and then recently returned to the fold
;Js our top artist. Jack and I were havinf!; a ball turning out n10nster
stories "-Vith such irnperishable titles as ''Xom, the Creature Who
Swallowt~d tluc: Earth," ';Grottu, the Giant Ant"Eater,' "Thomgorr, the
1
Anti~ Social Alicn,n '·Fin Fang Foom' 1 (I never could remen1ber what
his shhck wAs-if he was a he), and others of equally redeerning
artistic and literary value.
Yep, thc~re we were blithely grinding out our rnerry little monster
yarns. At the sarne tirne National Comics was still featuring Super-
man, Bntmnn, and all their other costumed cuties. The Archie group
was tikewise doing business as usual with Archie1 Jughead, and their
fun-loving friends. Meanwhi]e, Harvey Publications was holding its
own with Casper the Ghost and his capricious cohorts. Also in conten-
tion were the Chnrleton line of assorted comic-book titles, as well as
the Dell and Gold Key offerings. We were turning out comics by the
carload\ but nothing much was happening.
15
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At ;)hont this time I had a t:.!k with m.y wife. Actually, rhere's
nothin~ very llllUSUal about that ··----we oftPn talk to (:'ach other. Bul
this time Joan \VHS conunenting about the fact that aftt•r twenty
years of producing comics I was still writing television m:;terial, ad-
vertising copy, and newspaper features in tny spare tirne. She \VOn-
dered why I didn't put as HH!ch effort •Hld creativity into the comics
ns [ secrned to be putting into rny other free-lance endeavors. The
f;JCt is, I had alw1-1ys thonght nf m.y comic, book work as a tetnporary
joh~-~ even after all tho::~e ycars~··~-and her little dissertation n1nde me
suddenly renlize that it was time to stD.rt concentrating on what I was
doing -"--to carve a real career for myself in the nowhere world of
comic hooks.
No sooner had the tovely Mrs. Lee filled me with ra.bid resolution
than I had 8.nother talk, this tirne- v.'ith lV1artin GoodnEm. Martin was
my publisher, my friend, :::md rny eousin~in-·lnw . not necessarily in
that order. He was also easily the hest bus1nessman, the cleverest
l_;ditor, and the canniest publisher I've ever known. I suspect he'd
haVf!" been a trip!e~threat writer as well had he been so inclined. How-
ever, J\.1artin published a number of other types of magazine!) as well
ns comic books, and devoted most of his tin1e to the so-called "slicks''
whlle I was pretty rnuch on my own with the comics. I never knew
if it was because he had unbounded confidence in me, or because he
didn't think comics had rnuch future.
Be that as it rnay, Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of
the titles published by National Comics seemed to be seH1ng better
than most. It wus a book called The justice League of Arnerica nnd
was composed of a team of superheroes. Well, we dldn't need 8 house
to fall on us. "If The justice League is selling,'' spake he, "why don't
we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?"
His logic was irrefutable. Besides, I was tired of doing those count~
less monster mags. And Joan wanted me to bear down and n1ake
something of myself in the cornlc-hook fidei. ~I'he timing was perfect.
The elernents were all at hand. Kismet.
It was natural for me to choose Jack Kirby to draw the new super-
hero book that we would soon produce. Jack had probably drawn
more superhero strips than any other artist and he was as good as
they come. We had worked together for years, on all types of strips
and stories. Most importantly, we had a uniquely successful method
of working. I had only to give Jack an outline of a story and he would
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dr;_lW the entire strip, brea:king down the outline into exactly the ri~ht
ntHtlher of panels replete with ;tction and drmna. Then, it rernnined
for rnt~ to take Jack's ilrtwork :1nd <Hid the captions and dialogue,
which would, hopefully, add the dimension nf reality through sharply
delineated chilracterizat·ion.
Ah, but this was Jl{)t to be merely another of the hundrerls. of comic-
strip features [ hud concocted in 111y long and lachrymose career. No,
this was to be something diiierent-smnething special-----something to

stupefy rny publisher, startle rny public, and satisfy rny wife's desire
for rne to ''prove myselfn in my own little sphere.
True, I would create a tearn of superheroes if that was what the
rnarketpiace required. But it would be a tean1 such as comicdom had
never known. For just this once, I would do the type of story I myself
would enjoy reading if I were a cmnic-book render. And the ch:1r-
acters would be the kind of characters I could personally relate to;
thev'd be Hesh and blood, th~y'd have their faults and foibles, th~y'd
he fallible and feisty, and~----- most important of all-~-inside their color-
ful, costwned booties they'd still have feet of clay.
The morel thmtght :1bout it, the rnore the concept grabbed rne. All
that rernained was to dream up the characters, to create a tearn that
meshed togetbt.~r. The first thing that came to mind was love interest.
Fr;r the first time we'd hr1ve a hero and n heroine who were actually
engaged. No more coy suggestions that she'd really dig the guy if
only 'dhe knew his true identity. And, speaking of identities) I was
utterly deterrnined to hnve a superhero series without any secret iden-
tit-ies. I knew for a fact that if I n1yseif possessed a super power Pd never
keep it secret. I'm too rnuch of a show-off. So why should our fictional
fri~nds be any Jifferent? Accepting this premise, it w<=ts also natural
to decide to forgo the use of costumes. If our heroes were to live in
the rea! world~ then let them dress like real people.
Little by little it all took shape. We'd have the leader of the team
nnd his lady love. She'd have a kid brother whom the readers could
empathize with--but not too young. One of my n1any pet peeves has
always been the young teenage sidekick of the average superhero.
Once againl if yours truly were a superhero theres no way I'd pal
around with some freckle-faced teenager. At the very least, people
would start to talk. Anyway 1 I felt there should he one more n1en1ber
of our stitl~nameless rnenage----one character who was to be included
for drama! for pathos 1 for color, and for the sheer offbeat quality he
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could provide. He\_f be the most unlikely hero of all ll~ly, tnorose,
nnd toti:!ll_y ::mtisociaJ,~-~--posscssed of br-ute strength <-tnd a hair~l rigger
kmfJPL l-Ie just had to become the most popular one of ;tiL
After kicking it around with Martin and J<wk for a while I decided
io c;Jll our quamt quartet The Fantastic Four. I wrote a detailed fl.rst
-;ynopsis for Jack to follow, and the n:~st !S history.
Now then, ;i few explanatory notes to the artwork ynu :-lre soon to
breathlt~ssly
hehokt The origin of The Fantastic Fonr was conceived
:1nd produced in 1961. It was m~rely the first of nn unbroken line of
monthly releases that were to develop anJ ~row and improve with
t·:ach subsequent is5ue. Actually, the m~depth chnroctcrization that
wfJs destined to become a Marvel tr,qdemark was only hinted at in
this, the opening strip. In the months that followed, the nrtwork grew
progressively !dicker, far more illustrative cJnd carefully detailed. The
chnracters hecnme more sharply defined, nnd the touches of satire
t-hat Marvel introduced into the snperh~ro genre grew more and rnore
apparent.
But even in the first, rather primitive ;:-lppearance of The Fantastic
Four. you're certain to see evidence of the unique qualily, the imagi-
native interpretation, and the stylistic departure from Hll the super-
hero strips which had gone before it.
So read on, 0 True Believer. May this small but salient slice of
living history now serve to nourish thine awestruck, hungry eyes.
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THERE
rr1~mu SHALL COME
m~® A JOLLY GREEN
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1 U ST been use this 1s tbe start of Part Two, that

doesn't mean we're finished with Part One. There are still sorne things
I want to rnention about The Fantastic Four. Thls is just to warn you
th;tt, 1f _ynu expect a tightly ~tructured text, you're not apt to find it
when the author is a guy whose cornicbook stories used to ramhle on
from issue to i">sue, even weaving around frorn one title to another--~--
and back again if I happened to remember.
After rere::.-tdiHI{ thP first }i~F yarn which graces the preceding pages,
a slightly disturbing thought just hit Ine. Those of you who may be
rwuphytt·s iu the realm of comicdom rnight, with some justification,
ask what all the shouting was ahout. Certainly, looking back J.t the
strip, Inf)fe than a decade Inter, the artwork seems to he an unlikely
c8ndidate for some future Sistine Chapel, while the quality of the
writing wiH hardly be a threat to the reputation of Dickens or Hugo.
But if you were familiar with the cornic-book genre in_ those hal-
cyon of yore, you'd possibly have reacted the way so many thou-
srmds of other sUlrt!ed readers did when they suddenly realized they
were reading a superhero saga that was extravagantly different from
those that had gone before. And it was that very difference that
started it alL
For exarnplc-1 in the early strip we tried to give some dimension to
the melancholy Moleman. Rernernber where he explains how he
reached his underground kingdorn on Monster Isle~~and why? Didn't
yon find yourself sympathizing with hiin, just a bit? There he- was,
ostracized by his fellow man-and wotnan-because his physical
appearance left n_ little something to be desireJ. He couldn't find
acceptance in our \Vorld, so he set out to find another-~one which
might have a place for him. Now this was hardly reaching the dra-
matic heights of a Kafka, but it was almost unheard of in a comic
hook. Heretofore) villains were villains just because they were vil-
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bins. Comics tnerely hnd g;uod guys and b:td guys, and nobody ever
bothered with the whys or wherefores. I3ut hl~re, in the first fateful
issue nf The Fantastic Four, 0111· renders were given a viliain with
whom they might c:mpathize a villain who was driven to what he
had done by the slings and arrows of a hearth~ss, heedless humanity.
It was a flrs:L It was rm attempt to portray a three~dimensiunal chat·-
r:Ktcr in a wodd that had heen composed of stereotypes. Tu comic
boukdotn, it wns tnnt;unount to the invention of the wheel.
Si1nilarly, the episode where Hen Clrin1m and Reed Richards begin
to ftght after their rocket ship has crash lar1<.led-~-and where Ben te!Is
l.(.eed, ''You don't have to make :1 speech, big shot," ns well as the
other instances sco.ttered throughout the strip where Ben is caustic
and dbrasive to I~ecd nnd the world in general-~·---all these negative
touches had been virtually unknown to contic books till then. Mem-
bers of supet-hero temns \Vere cdwa.ys the best of friends, with never
a cross word between them. Good guys were never s{lrcastic, never
bitter; yet here was a team with a raving rnalcontent, one whose
paranoia ·,:vas to increase with succeeding issues.
I ns well call your attention to the dialogue, also. While ifs
rt far cry from Paddy Chayefsky, you rnay notice the definite t~ffort
that wns rnade to have people speak as n1uch as possible like real
HeshM<-n1ci-blood hun1ans, \-Vhcther they were cab drivers, policemen,
garage rnechanics, pilots, or whatever. \-Vhile reasonably natural dia-
logue is so rnuch a pnxt of writing that I feel foolish even tnentioning
it, you n1ust rernember that we're talking about a form of the media
and a time period where "So! You wa1u1a play, huh?ll was formerly
considet-ed a meaningful, profound exclamation when uttered by a
hero in the process of being purnrneied by a villain or two.
As a matter of fact, it was in order to denwnstrate how our atten1pt
to inject realism into our stories--~through both characterization and
ciiatogue---grew progressively stronger and more successful and to
show how the quality of the artwork irnproved measurably from issue
to issue that Pve included the more recent ''When Strikes the Silver
Surfer/, as well as the other strips you 1ll encounter in this titanic
tome as we hurtle along on our jocular journey through Marvel's be-
ginning. So don't go away-especially since we're about to zero in on
The Incredible Hulk.
Speaking of The Hulk-and it's about time we did--- I know you'll
be whelmed to learn that he was the second one created in Marvers
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g,rnwing stable of sllghtly sanguinary superstars. As each succeeding

issue of The Fantastic Four increased ln sales and in popularity, we
felt it behoove-d us no longer to deny a breathlessly waiting rnankind
the indescribable pleasure of another mighty Marvel superhero.
But f seern to hear you ask, ''How did you know The Fantastic
Four was growing in popularity? Sales we can understand. But how
do you gauge a magazine's popularity ?n Good question, I was hoping
you'd ask.
Prior to The Fantastlc Four, fan mail was almost unknown to us.
Oh, we rnight have received a letter or two during the year, but it
w~s Hlways this type: "Dear Editor, I bought a copy of Kid Colt Out.
law and there was one staple rnissing frorr1 the binding. I want my
money back." Hardly what you'd call a tlood of fan maiL
But nu sooner did F F # 1 hit the stands than we actually started
to receive letters that said sornething. "Loved your new mag. All
do is make f~eed Richards less stuffy~~---and show us
more of The Invisible Girl." "The Thing1 s the best character I ever
saw. l hope he'll stop belng a monster real :won.1' "How does The Hu-
man Torch burst into Harne? What makes him fly? Why don't you
give him his own magazine?"
It was one of the rnost exciting things that ever happened to us. We
found out that there were actually real live readers out there-r-ead-
ers who took the trouble to contact us, readers who wanted to talk to
us about our characters, about our stories. With each new letter they
got to know us better 1 and what was more irnportant 1 we got to know
then!. We learned what they iiked~ what they didn't like1 what they
wanted to see more of ... and less of. After a while I began to feel I
wasn't even the editor; I was just following orders-orders which
came in the maiL And one request which was repeated with ever-
increasing frequency was ''When will you bring out another new
superhero book?"
Finally, we had to yield to the burgeoning blandishments of our
legion of pen pals. But what was our next effort to be? Admittedly,
we had struck pay dirt by introducing a se:ries featuring an iconoclas-
tic team of superheroes. But I didn't want us to get into a rut. I was
determined that our next production not concern itself with another
team, After all, our fans (and what a kick it was to be able to think
of thern as fans rather than merely readers) kept referring to us as
innovators, and I wasn1 t about to let anything change their minds.
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Okny. ThPn~ I w:1s at rny desk, a brand-rww sheet of paper in my

typewriter, re:::ldy tu begin anew the :1gony of cn:ation. \Vhnt kind
of hero was the cotnic-book reading world waiting for? What could we
come up with that would take fnndom by storrn? How about nn ~:rrol
Flynn type? Or a Gary Cooper? But then that little voice kevt ·.vhis-
perinf; inside my head, "Be innovative, Be original. 'They expect you
to come up with smnething that's different."
Let rne digress for n tnornent. I do ;J lot of lecturing at colleges
around the country. N owndays, nlmust a generation after the start
of l\1arvel Cornics, more than one--third of our readers are of college
;_lge though that's a subject for another book. Anyway, there'~; always
a lively questions-and-answers session afte-r cnch dazzling dissertation,
and the one question which is most frequently asked of rne is "Where
do you get your ideas?H [ suppose that;s asked of n1ost writers, artists,
<Jnd various other categories of people engaged in creative endeavors.
\VeU, I've had plenty of opportunity to give that question a lot of
thought and the answer I always give may not quite be the one you'd
expect.
Actually, ideas have always heen the easiest part of my various
chores. In the comic~book field especially, alnwst anything can be
H. vinble idea. Each dayys assortment of readers' mail contains enough
ideas to keep us in business for centuries. Unfortunately, hnwevf:r 1

ideas are only the tip of the iceberg. The crucial point is what use you
rnake of the ideas. Let's take The Hulk as an example .
I had pretty much decided to let our second Marvel~style rnagazine
feature someone with superhuman strength. But there had been, and
still were, many such characters at that time 1 with National Comics'
Superman as the first that comes to mind. Certainly there would be
nothing terribly original about someone who had the strength of
Supern1an. But that's where the fun came in. It would be my job to
tnkc a cliche concept and make it seem new and fresh, exciting and
relevant.
Once again I decided that Jack Kirby would be the mtist to
hreathe life into our latest creation. He had already gained an enthu-
si8stic coterie of fans with his interpretation of The Fantastic Four
and was more than capable of doing an additional feature strip or
two. So the next time we met I outlined the concept that I'd been
toying with far weeks.
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It w;lS patently :lp}X'H~nt thnt The Thing wns the most popular
chnrf-H"1f'f in Tht~ Fantastic Four, and quite possibly in the entire
comic--hook Held. Not only did the rea.ders like hin1 best, but he
grabbed me, too. For a long time I'd been aware of the fact that
people were more likely to favor someOH(~ who was h~ss thnn perfect
someone with feet of dny \\:ith whom they could identify. Why
W<-lS. Hwnphrey Bogart more popular th3n so many r-nllcr, smoother
leading mt:n with perfect collar<ul fc;_:ttures~ leading men whose

nmues are now forgotten? Why the stronger-than-ever cult for the
universal "little g_uy,'' the world's champion all-tirne loser, Chnrli~:_~
Chaplin! It's a sLJ.fe bet that you ren:entber Quasin10do, but how
c;-J.:>iiy um you narru~ any of the heroic, handsomer, more glamorous
characters in The I-lt.mchbac·k of Notre Dame? And then there~s
Frankenstein- --;:tnd he's the one I've been h•rtding up to.
I've always hari n soft spot' in rny heart for the Frankenstein mon--
ste--r. No one could r:ver convince Ilk that he was the bad f~Uy, the
villain, or the rnenace. It was he who was sinn~J against by those who
fccnred him, hy those whose first i~1stlnct was to strike out blindly at
whntc:ver couldn't cmnprehend. He never wanted to hurt any-
nne; he: rnere!y groped his tortuous way through a ;;econd life trying
to defend hirnselC trying to come to terms with those who sought to
destroy him.
I suppose you can guess where we're heading. Think of the chBl-
lcnge it woutd be to make a hero out of rt n1onster. \Ve would have a
protagonist 'Nith superhwnan strength, but he wouldn't be all-wise,
nil-noble, ;::dl-infnllibleo (How's that for a rollicking redundancy?) We
would use the concept of the Frankenstein monster, but update it.
Our hero would be a scientist, transforrneJ into a raging behemoth by
a nuclear accident. And---since I was willing to borrow from Franken-
stem, I decided I might as well borrow from Dr. Jekyll and Me Hyde
ns well---~--our protagonist would constantly change from his normat
identity to his superhmnan alter ego and back again.
Now Jll that rernained was to flnd a name. Racking my brain for
all the appellations that would describe a gargantuan creature, a be-
ing of nwesome strength coupled with a dull and sluggish thinking
process, I couldn 1t seen1 to find the right word. I looked in the diction-
ary and the thesaurus. but nothing was on target. I knew I needed a
perfect name for a monstrous, potentially murderous hulking brute
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who~-~~·and then I :-;topped. It was the word ''hulkin~( that did it. It
conjured up the perfect mental image. I knew 1 had found his name.
lie had to be: The Hulk.
As I described hirn to Juck, I was envisioning a sonwwhat nice~
looking monster, big and brutish enough to nwke hin1 feared by all
who met hitn and yet with a certain tragic appeai that would make
our rt'CJ.ders c.-_ue about hin1 and cheer hitn on. Not the t:~ttsiest of soals
p~.:rhaps, but I had a feeling we could do it.
Incidentnlly, as you read the ':>trip which follows, you'llnotice that
I had Jack introduce a ''teenage sidekick" type of character just the
type whorn I had earlier said I couldn't stand. But we did it for a
reason. lie \vas a necessary catalyst in the creation of The Hulk, and
he also gave rne a chance to demonstrate that it was possible to intro-
duce a teenager into a comic-book series without making him a cloy-
ing, si:mpy extens.ion of the hero's personality. Remember, at Marvel
we like to do things differently.
One final note before I again turn you loose. i\s an added fillip, I
thought it would be interesting to have The llulk's skin change color
when he reverted to his monstrous self. Thinking it would be in-
tensely dramatic~looking and somber 1 I arranged to have his hody
take on a gray hue in the first issue of his new rnagazine. But, as soon
:is the advnnce copies reached us, I realized the effect was entirely
different fron1 what I had intended. In sorrw of the scenes his gray
skin color gave hirn <l chameleonlike quality; the printer didn)t seem
able to him a consistent shade of gray from page to page) or even
frorn panel to panel. In fact, his skin was light gray in some places
and ahnost black in others. There were a few panels where he seemed
red, and for sorne reason which nobody could explain, in one close-up
toward the end of our little epic he was bright emerald green. As you
may have already surrnised, it became painfulty apparent to me that
gray was not the happiest color choice I might have made.
Shortly thereafter, a seemingly rational comic-book writer spent
long 1 anguished minutes pacing his not-quite~sumptuous office trying
to determine the proper skin color for a fictional monster. Then,
mainly because there were no other emerald .. skinned rampagers
extant at that particular time, the color I finally opted for was a
bravely hedazzling basic green.
In the strip that follows, which is the very first Hulk offering ever
bestowed upon a grateful citizenry 1 we've taken the liberty of coloring
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him that same shadP of green, since this is the way he is presently
knuwn to hoth friend and foe alike. Howevf~r, to s::itisfy the archivists
and the pnrists ntnnng; you. The Hulk covrT which accompanies this
dari11g- denouement is depicted in its original gray, as lVIarvel con-
stantly strivf:~ to hring you the very bc:1t of both possible worlds.
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THE WORLD'S
r)t~m1r
r~w[~~
BEST-SELLING
SWINGER
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MY daughter is into numerology. She'd probably

be the first to predict what happened next. After all, the first two
Marvel "new-waven productions were admitted blockbusters; that
means the next one we came up with, being number three, would
have to be far bigger than both of them---or else a total dud. \Veil,
having read the first two spellbinding parts of this literary landmark,
you knotv how l hate to boast. Suffice it to say that nrlmero tres, The
Amazing Spider-l\llBn, wasn't a dud.
In order to tell you how Spidey was born, we've got to go back to
the book that pr-eceded hirn, because lfs basically a story within a
:.,tory,
Up till now I've frequently mentioned Jolly Jack Kirby as our
most ubiquitous artist-in-residence. He wasdt christened Jolly Jack
""" -sornetirnes he wasnJt even all that jolly~--but I got a kick out of
giving aHiterntive nicknames to our genial little galaxy of superstars,
rnostly for the purpose of enabling the readers to remember who they
were. You see, prior to the emergence of Marvel Comics, the artists
and writers who produced the strips, as well as the editors, art direc-
tors, and letterers, were mostly unknown to the reader, who rarely
if ever saw their names in print. In order to change that image and
atternpt to give a bit more glamour to our hitherto unpublicized crea-
tive caliphs, I resorted to every device I could think of-and the
nutty nicknatnes seexned to work.
However, Jolly Jack wasn't the only shining star in the ever-grow-
ing Marvel galaxy. The time is come for me to speak of Sturdy Stevey
Ditko. And now that I've spoken of him, ifs necessary to digress again
for just another few minutes.
During the time that The Fantastic Four and The Incredible Hulk
were taking the world of letters by storm and becoming household
words-in my household, anyway-we were still experimenting with
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different types of cornic--books. And on~ of thPrn in particular must be

dearly understood before you can even hope to pass your year-~end
l~Xam in 1V1arvel lore. That one is Atnazing Adult Fant:Jsy.
It wasn't always A.nwzing Adult Fantas_v. It started out as Amaz-
ing Fantasy, with all sorts of rnonster tnles- and assorted fantasy yarns
with 0. IIenry"type endings. Om~ day, in iln effort to learn whether
it was possible to increase the size of our older readership, I decided
to add the word ''Adult' 1 to our masthead and to upgrade the stories
as rnuch as possible. With this in mind. we H~turn once again to where
we hr-HJ left- Me Ditko.
Steve Ditko, like Kirby, was a natural when it came to comics. Hls
ability Lit teHing a ~;;tory in pictures was second to none 1 and his sense
of layout and design, coupled with a highly individualistic style of
drawing, s-eemed to be ilnmensely popular with our readers-as it
certainly was with me. Steve had done countless surprise-ending
mystery strips for us in the past, and l felt his style was both unique
arHi sophisticated enough to warrant trying an offbeat experiment.
In theory it seerned pedect. The older readers. generally 'enjoyed
stories with nnexpected shock endings, and Steve and I had collabo-
rated on so nF1.ny together that it seemed only natural to present an
entire :magazine with such features. Amazing Fantasy would become
Arnazing Adt1It Fantasy, with five far~out tales per issue, -written by
yours t:ruiy and illustrated by Steve Ditko.
\Ve pnxiuced fifteen issues of AAF and I loved every one. The art~
work was sensational and I rnust adtnit I thought the plots held up
pretty well also. As a mA.tter of factj the plots must have been fairly
effective because they. ve since been ''adopted" by innurnerable TV
suspense shows over the years. However, you1 re probably wondering
what <1H of these Rabelaisian reminiscences have to do with Spider-
Man. I was hoping youJd ask.
An1azing Adult Fantasy ftnally ran its course. After issue # 10 the
sales bt;gan to soften and it seemed that we were running out of
stearn. Apparently we'd been doing too good a job with our super-
heroes. The sales of the superhero magazines were soaring, which
meant that AAF, with its five little featurettes per issue) was having
an uphill hattie bucking a trend. So it was decided that the fifteenth
issue of Amazing Adult Fantasy wouid be the fmal one. To mark the
occasion, we even dropped the word "Adult' 1 from the title. And now
---here comes Spider-ivlan.
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Just tor kicks, I wanttd to try something different. Oh sure. The

Fantastic Four was diffen•nt~~--~dnd 'I'ht~ Hulk was different. Bllt I
mean really different. For quite a while I'd been toying with the idea
nf doing a strip that would violate nil the conventions-,-~-hreak all the
rules. A strlp that would actually feature .:1 teenager as the star, in-·
sh:ad of mnking; him ;-H1 ( ngh!) adult hero)s sidekick. A strip in which
the nw!n character would lose uut: as often as he'd win-~-in fact,
more often. A strip in which nothing would progress according to
fonnub - the situations, the cast of clwracters, and their relationship
to each other would all be unusual and unexpected. Y cp, I knew what
I wanted all right) but where would I ever get a chance to try it?
\\!here----except in a rnagnzine that we were planning to kill anyway?
You gue:;serl it. I figured there wns nothing to lose. Arnazing Fan-
tas-y -:#: 15 would be the last issue before its preordained demise. It
\vouldn't rnatter what we did teo it, what strips were included In it;
it was doomed. That rneant I'd have a chance to get this latest little
gnawing idc~a out of rny systern, once and for alL The die was cast.
I would try a brand-new, totally different type of strip in AF -#: 15. It
would be a swan song never to he forgotten.
What about the name? Why Spider~Man? Simple. In the long~
dead, pract1cDlly Paleolithic era when I had been on the verge of
approaching teenagerhood, one of rny favorite pulp magazine heroes
was a 0tulwnrt named The Spider. He wore a slouch hat and a finger
ring with the image of an arachnid~-a ring which, when he punchc..>d
c:-t foe fearlessly in the face, would leave its mark, an i1nprcssion of a
::;pidec lt was The Spider's calling card, and it sent goose pimples up
and down my ten-"year-old spine. More than that, I can stili remember
how the rnngazine's subtitle grabbed. me. It was called The Spider~·~
but after his name were the never-to-be-forgotten words: Master of
!vlen Just play with that for a moment-~roll it around on your
tongue, savor the fateful, fascinating ftavor-~--The Spider_, Master of
Men. l\.1y m1nd was made up, the stage was set, the cards had been
dealt. I was no more than a puppet in the shadow show of destiny.
Now, as far as I can remember, The Spider had no superhuman
powers. It seerns to me he was just a good guy who fought the bad
guys. It wns his name that grabbed me. But that was enough.
I can still remember discussing my sinister little scheme with
l\1artin Goodman. I told him I'd try to do the whole new strip in a
tongue~in··cheek IIlanner. Everybody knew about Superman-so the
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tirne had corne for a competitor to mnkt~ the scene; and what fun it
would he to call hin1 Spider~·Man.
Martin's reaction was natural enough. In his own gentle way he
implied that I had lost rny marbles. He patiently inforrned me that
people didn't like spiders) that it was an unlikely nmne for a hero,
and H1<:-~t Spider-Ma.n would rnerit somewhat less than the reading
public's whale-hearted, enthusiastic approval. For my part I told him
his logic was incontrovertible, but hear rne out. Then I told him about
The Spider. Veri1y 1 I bared rny soul, mentioning how my childish
lv.:-drt would m.adly pound in breathless anticipation of each new
issue_ I zealously explained how I hoped that Spider~Man would be
a t.rend~setter, a funky freaky feature in tune with the tirnes. And
I played my ace. I ren1indcd !VI.G. that weld be presenting
Spider-Man in Amazing Fantasy's final issue~---we were killing the
magazine anyway~--~·- . so what's the hann?
Possibly hypnotized by my unassailable logic and no doubt tnes-
merized Ly tny youthful charm, plus the fact that he was growing
increasingly aware that he was late for a golf date, he made the deci-
sion. Spider~Man wm.Ilct live. Had I known then what all of comicdom
iissembled knows now, ['d have recorded that rnagic n1oment for
posterity.
And now comes the hard part----for you. This is where you!ve got
to pay strict attention because the scenario gets a bit complicated and
I hate to make long explanations. This is the part that deals with
Kirby and Ditko, and wby the strip turned out the way it did.
Whenever we began a new feature, one of my most critical tasks
\V8.S determining who would do the artwork. Every comic-strip artist
has his own style, just as every actor or every musician does. Match-
ing the right artist to the right strip is the goal of every editor. Match-
ing the best writer to the proper artist is equally important, but since
I was both editor and writer at the time, I need not concern you with
that little matter. You've got enough to worry about.
As you've certainly gathered by now, Kirby and Ditko were our
two artistic big guns at that time. But Jolly Jack had more experience
with superheroes. Steve Ditko's forte·-or so I thought-was in draw-
ing the various assorted mystery j monster/ fantasy stories. Hence, I
gave the first Spider-Man assignment to jack Kirby.
"jolly Jack," said I (I didn't really refer to him as Jolly, hut I felt
it would give a light, friendly tone to this entire exposition), "I'd like
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_you to illustra_te a brand"new feature named Sp1der-Man." Jack, with

hi'{ nsual ~mrgt~ of cosmic creativ1ty figurmively oozing frorn Pvery
pore, snid it would be a breeze.
At l his point, 0 true believer, it is vitally important that you
understand the art style of the rneritorious Mr. Kirby. Jack has a flair
fnr the dramatic 1hat truly surpasseth all understanding, Everything
he renders is bigger, and usually better, than life. As for his heroes,
he manngcs to imbue them with a nobility and an almost godlike
charis1na which helps to p,ive tlu~rn their great appeaL Okay, armed
\-vlth that t.:ssr:ntial blt of knowled(;e, read on.
Rce;arding Spider-- Man, I told Jack that I wanted to try something
different. I didn't '.vant him to be overly heroic-looking. I wanted him
to be :1n ordinary guy who happens to have a super power. Ht_·:
was to be not too handsornc. not too glamorous, not too graceful! not
too muscular---in other \VOrds, sort of the way I might be if I hnd n
super power which is not to be construed as a_:n adtnission that I don't.
But alas and when I saw the first few pages that Jack had
drawn, I realized we had a problem. They were too l!;OOd. Try as he
rnight, he hnd been apparently unable to degl:c=nnorize Spidey enough.
/\11 those years of drawing superheroes must have made it a little
too difficult to l<Jbor so mightily nnd come forth with a super loser, or
if you ;] supershnook ActuaHy, I was almost relieved. Jack wa~
so busy with his other populnr features, and I had so many additional
n(~W ones to give hirn, that I realizeU it might be better to let someone
else try Spider-l\tlnn rather than give the jolly one more than he
could comfortably handle.
Ah. Now I can alnwst see your self-satisfied smile as you cleverly
think, "Hey, I'll be-t this is where Steve Ditko comes ln." And how
right you are.
Steve's style, especially in those halcyon days of yore, was almost
diametrically different frotn Jack 1S. Where J nck would exaggerate,
Steve would strive zealously for total realism. Where Jack made his
featured characters as heroically handsome as possible 1 Steve's forte
seemed to be depicting the average man Jn the street. I decided to
play a hunch. I asked Steve to draw Spider-Man. And he did. And
the rest is history.
After Spidey's pretniere appearance in Amazing Fantasy .:¢15 the
book was dropped and we all forgot about it. I'd gotten the Spider-
Man character out of my system and could now go back to our other
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l
superstar5. But then it happened. The sales reports started coming
m. IVIonths after AF had been kissed off and abandoned we realized
we had had a best seller on our hands~--and it had to be because of
Spider~rvtnn. It didn't take long to arrange another conference be~
tween lv1artin Go<ximo.n and myself, and when thnt momentous meet~
ing had ended, we had decided to let Amazing Fantasy enjoy the
hiatus it so richly deserved while we resurrected oi' Spidey in a book
of his own. Henceforth 1 t-he reading public would be the lucky recipi-
t:nts of a hrand~new monthly publicrttion entitled The Amazin4
Spider-[Wan So it was ordained. So it was done. And Spider-Man has
comri~tently been our best~selling title for more than a decade.
The list of innovations which rnast be credited to the wondrous
web-slinger could fill another book this size. But it rnif;!;ht bf~ in order
to mention just a few for you in an effort to explain some of the pos·-
~ible reasons for Spidey's world-wide popularity. To begin with, he
was probably the first superhero to wear his neuroses on his .r.;leeve.
The poor guy is far rnore troubled than most of the characters he has
to battle. And how many other superheroes are there who have to
worry about their dear old Aunt May dying of a heart attack? Corne
to think of it 1 have you ever heard of a superhero with continuing
problerns with his love life? Certainly not in those days. We struc-
tured the st:ries in the pattern of any daytime radio soap opera, and
mlraculousiy we seem to have made it stick. Then there were the real-
life touches. How about the time Spidey needed some extra rnoney
so he appeared as a guest performer on the Ed Sullivan show? He
was paid by check, only to discover he couldn't cash the darn thing
because he didn't have an account in the name of Spider-Man-·~and
he couldn't reveal his true identity to a bank teller. Or the time he
tore his costume and realized he'd have to learn to sew it himself
because he could hardly take it to his local tailor. One sequence I
really enjoyed writing7 and which drew tons of fan mail, was the
time our web-swinging hero visited The Fantastic Four and told them
he wanted to join the group, thinking it would pay him more than
he was making on his own. He grew indignant when he was told The
FF was a nonprotlt organization, and he split as soon as he could. See
what I mean? Not quite the same situations that comics had been
offering their readers in the dark and dismal days of the pre-Spider-
~1an era.
And leave us not forget the cast of characters. Was ever there such
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a stnmgely a~ sorted, unprobable f1,roup ns those who Gipricously c-_wort

within the p:-q!_es of the \vorld's most popular comic-book? Starting
with the agdcss Aunt 1\tlay, who may still be alive ot the time ynu
n-:ad this ------Aunt May, whosL~ tender devotion to her orphaned nephew
sti II prompt.q her to worry if he goes out in the rain without his
galoshes, ur if he should miss a me:-'ll or forget to take his cod liver oil.
And then there;s J, Jon[Jh Jameson, the ir.ascible publisher of the
IJ.:J1ly Bugle, for whotn Peter Parker (Spider--Man's alter ego) works
as. a free-l:.u1cc photographec J .J. used to get as rnuch fan mail as
Spidey himself, what \\lith his never-ending diatribes against the web--
spinner, his violent bursts of tcrnper against anything that .<;.eetned
to threaten the status quo or his own pockethook~·~JJ., whose bark
wns ct:rl'ainly on ;1 p<>r with his bite. But to offset JJ., there's also
Robbie Robertson, the Huy./e's city editor and Peter's loyal friend and
confidnnr. 1:\:obhie was one of the fJrst black characters to play an
irnportant, continuing role m any superhero series, and he's 21s U1Uch
a part of the strip ns Spidey himself. Then there arc the girls. Starting
with Betty Brant, JJ.)s secretary and Peter's: first love, and continuing
right on through to Gwen Stacy, whom Peter wanted to marry right
up till the time of her shocking, agonizing, accidental death in issue
#" 121, a denth which still brings us letters of protest in each day's
mail. Shortly thereafter, Peter seerned to have a thing going with Mary
Jane Watson, the hip, happy honey whds never far from the scene of
the action. And after that? WelL Marvel's never been accused of be-
ing shy with surprises.
However, ifs the villains who really knock rne out the rnost. Al-
though they began their appearances after the first issue, what red-
blooded Spideyphile can truthfully say his pulse doesn't pound a
little faster at the tnere rnention of Doctor Octopus, The Vulture, The
Kingpin, The Green Goblln, and the howling host of other heavies
who nrc such an integral and endearing part of Spidey's little reper-
tory cmnpany? And as you know, what with Marvel's mixed-up policy
of cross-pollinating our various titles, any one or any combination of
vile-, vituperative villains are apt to pop up without warning in any
other superhero's mag to inflict his deeds of dastardly derring-do
when you least expect it.
Of coursej there are dozens of characters I've neglected t.o mention
-characters such as Harry Osborn, who had been Peter Parker's
best friend nnd was also, incidentally, the son of The Green Goblin,
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Spidt~_y's deadliest foe. And lf~t's toast good ol-' Flash Thompson, the star
:lthlete of Peter 1 s high school in the curly days nf the serir:s. Flash'~
L-1voritf~ hobby was builying our hero. little drenrning that ''Puny
Parker'' was, in reality, the amazing SpiUt:!r-&Inn, Flash's nll~time idoL
Then there was the one<Hm(•d scientist nruned Dr. Curtis Connors,
\Vho was a devoted fmnily mnn as wdl as a frien(i of Peter Pnrker's.
It wasn't his fault that he'd sornetirnes turn into the louthsmne Lizard,
whuse lust for violence and domination over n1ankind posed many a
sticky little prpblem. fur our friendly neighborhood Spider--rv1an. t
could go on and on, but l know you!re anxious to read the very first
Spldey strip itself now th<.1t you've been so thoroughly briefed.
Very well then. I've guided you thus hr, but now once again we
cornc to a parting of the ways. For the next few minutes you're on
your own---~-it'll be just ynu 1 and the Spider-Man of old. So I'll take a
break while you blithely relive the dizzying thrill of a rare dis-
covery.
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MEANWHILE '
BACK IN
ASGARD . . .
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WLCOME back I've missed you. And now, while

hope you've enjoyed basking in the rekindled glory of Spidey 1S first
and subsequent appearances) the tinw has come to change the mood.
Up till this point we've been studying three of Marvel's Earth-
bound masterworks. Despite their somewhat startling superpowers,
The Fantastic Four, The Hulkt and your friendly neighhorhoad web-
slinger nre all mortal human beings. But not so our next production.
Look at it this way: Suppose you had a newly created stable of
superstars which consisted of a teenager who could burst into flame
and through the air, a stretchable scientist with skin like Silly
Putty; his ofttimes invisible lady love 1 and a multimuscled rnisfit with
lun1py orange skin~~ to say nothing of a wall~crawling Wunderkind
and a green giant~--what in the name of corr1icdorn assen1bled
would you do for an encore? Sure, we were always striving for vari-
etyr but now it was getting ridiculous.
Not that anyone was forcing us to launch new titles. Someone else
have been content to declare a moratorium on any new garn-
bles and sin1ply stay with the characters we had. But I was like a
crapshooter rolling one great pass after another-~-you just dodt stop
when you're on a winning streak. And besides, we were now averag~
lng rnore than a thousand letters a week from frantic Marvelites
everywhere demanding more, more1 more! All of us in the bullpen
were carried along by an ever-mounting wave of excltement and en-
thusiasm, not to mention a healthy helping of greed.
But what was left to invent? Who could be stronger than The
Hulk? Who could be smarter than Mr. Fantastic? We already had a
kid who could fly, one who could walk on wails and ceilings, and a
female who could fade away whenever danger threatened-or when-
ever the artist ran out of ink. As you can see, we were hooked on
superlatives at that tinlC 1 always trying to come up with characters
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who were bigger, better. ~tronger. However, we h;vj painted ourselves

into a corner. The only one who could top the heroes. we already had
would be Super·· God, but I didn't think the world was quite rero~.dy for
that concept just yet. So, it was back to the oi' drawing bo~trd.
I must have gone through a dozen pencils And a thousand sheets
of paper in the days that followed, making notes nnd sketches, listing
names and titles, and jotting down evPry type of superpower I could
think of. But I kept COining back to the sarne ludicrous idea: the only
way to top the others would he with Super-God.
I tried to shake the thought, to get it out of my mind once and for
alL There was no way we could present a strip featuring God without
possibly offending -ony reader of almost any religious afflliation. Re-
member, this was before the days of the so-called underground cornlcs
where anything goes. But even that wouldn't have mattere-d. The
underground type of publication wasn't our thing. 1\llarvel has always
ai1ned for a family audience-fun for the kiddles and fantasy for the
older readers. Or the other way around if you prefer. So I knew we
just couldn't swing with Super-God.
Or could we? A thought suddenly struck me. During a recent radio
interview the talk-show host and I had been discussing our l\.1arvel
stories and he had referred to them as a twentieth-century tnythol-
ogy. It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary
mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future
generations just i1S those we had read as children had beeu handed
down to us. One of the points he had made was that Marvel's heroes
had smne of tht1 charisma, smne of the flavor of ancic:nt fairy tales,
of ancient Greek and Norse mythology. And that was what grabbed
me. That was the answer.
I couldn1t - I wouldn't--do a series featuring God as a comic-book
hero. But I cou1d-·-~,and woulU-Uo a series featuring a god as a
comic-book hero. After all, ever since man has walked the Earth there
have been legends of gods and their goddesses, their problems, their
bc1ttles, their triumphs, and their defeats. Okay. Since we were the
legend 111akers of today, we)cl simply take what had gone before) build
on it, embellish it, and come up with our own version of the continu-
ing saga of good versus evil-god-wise, that is.
As far as I can remember, Norse mythology always turned me on.
There was something about those mighty, horn-helmeted Vikings
and their tales of Valhalla, of Ragnarok, of the Aesir, the Fire
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Dl.-:'tnons, ;-md !!11!'nortnl, t-•ternal Asgard, home of the gods. If t~ver
there wns n rich lodt-) of rnaterial into which iV1arvel mi~ht dip, it was
tlwn~- nnd we would mine it.
But r1ow. for the first tirr1e, I wns faced with a frustrating problem.
Heretofore, I had written all of the origin tales of each new character,
as well as the subsequent follow-up stories in every series. But now it
w:~s irnpnssible. I qJrnply wouldn't have the time to continue with The
Fantastic f''om, The Hulk, Spider~Man, and the other odd Western.
mystery, romance, humor, and assorted monster tales 1 wns writing
and still do iustice to our newest feature yet alJorning. Of course, I
could have given up some of the other, less irnportant strips, but a
new problern was now beginning to disturb me. I realized that I had
been writing the bulk of our first--line rnaterial with no back-up writ-
t~rs, 8.nd that created a dangerous situation. \Vh<1t if I were to become
inu1pacitnted in some- way? Producing monthly publications, we had
grueling, mnn-kiHing production schedules to maintain. It was simply
too risky for me not to be grooming sorne other wrlters to ftll the
breach if necessary. Besides, it's no fun being a boss if there's no one
to yell at.
Luckily, I had surneone to yell at. The tirne is come to draw the
curta:in and reveal Another Marvel maclrnan who hath thus far
patiently been standing in the wings. So let's hear it, gang, for Lucky
Larry Lieber, artist, writer, and natural-born kid brother. Yes, one of
the worst--kept secrets of the comic-book biz is the fact that Larry
Lieber is relate-d to me by virtue of having been horn to the same
parents as yours truly--~~-albeit nine years later.
At this juncture it may possibly behoove us to pause for a moment
since rm weB aware that the drama and suspense are growing vir-
tually unendurable. As we take our well-deserved break, I'll furnish a
couple of explanations to questions that may be puzzling yout ques-
tions which you~re too polite to ask. First of all, I really dodt call him
Lucky, just as I don't call the other two fellas Jolly or Sturdy. To
some this rnay seem a trivial point, but if ever you run into Larry, or
to Jack or Steve, I know you1d want to address them properly. Sec-
ondly, there may be some anlong you who are, even now, furrowing
your brows, narrowing your eyes, and thinking-with the deep-down
~harpness. that is ever the mark of the true Marvelite---"~"How come
Stan Lee's kid brother is named Lieber? Why did Larry change his
name?n Ah, hut t'was not Lieber the Younger who did alter his name.
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Nny, t'was hf~ who pens tht!-'ie imperishable words who has gone frorn
Liehr~r to Lr·e. And, as Richard !\1ilhous hirnself now knows, every
explan;Jtion seen1s to require an additional exposition; so l~::t rne 1:rn-

he!lish this theme just a few minutes more.
!v1yseif when born wns christened Stanley M.1rtin Lieber---- -truly
<1n appeHatlon to conjure with. It had a rhythrn, a vitality, H lyricism
all its own. I still remernbt"r one of my earliest purchases being a little
rubber starnp with 1!1Y nmne on it. which I promptly starnpc"fi on
every book and paper I owned-and even on some I didn't. So happy
was I being S.M.L., and so certain that 1 would one day write the
great American nove!, or the great Arnericnn n1otion picture, and so
young and witless was I at the time 1 started writing contics, that I
felt I couldn't sully so proud a name on books for little kiddies. Thnt's
why seventeen-year--old Stanley Martin Lieher felt he needed a sim~
pler sobriquet, and thafs why he divided his first name into two
<>yilables, rn:Jking each sytlahle a name of its own. Stan Lee was for
comic books. S.l\..1.L. would be held in reserve--for greater things.
Let rne point oUt 1 pnrenthetically, that S.M.L. is still being held in
reserve, and this very book, which is obviously holding you spell-
bound, is possibly the closest I'll come to writing that great Arnerican
noveL Anyway 1 just to wrap it up before it gets too sticky, I legally
ch:mgpd my narne to Stan Lee a few years ago, so S.:rv1.L. is nothing
more than a cherished memory·,~~a slowly fading drean1 on the mel an~
cho!y mattress of life.
Now then, where were v..re? Ah yes-1 needed someone to write the
new feature, which hopefully would be Marvel's fourth winner in our
little superhero sweepstakes. Slowly surveying our entire, vast writing
staff-·-~which mainly consisted of myself and any occasional free~
lancer who happened to wander in to make a free phone cail~·~my
piercing, penetrating gaze happened to fall upon a skinny kid who
was sitting at a drawing board putting the f1nishing touches to a mon~
ster story he had just drawn and delivered. With unequaled percep~
tion, honed by long years of study and observation, I soon realized I
was looking at Larry Lieber-and I remembered that he had many
times expressed a desire to write a superhero story if ever the oppor-
tunity arose. Are you beginning to see how Destiny herself must have
conspired to assemble all of these isolated elements into just the right
pattern, at just the right time for the sake of generations yet unborn?
Historians of the future will wish to note that Larry Lieber ac-
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qulesced when asked if he'd pen a new superhero strip for the greater
g;lory of Marvpldorn. Let the record also show that Jack Kirby did
likewise when offered the illustrating chore. So I hud my team. I hnd
rny therne, my subiect rnattt:~r. The stars were in asn-msion. The
month had no Rs in it. Nothing could go wrong. There were just two
clements iat:king: a hero ~ . and a plot.
Le-t's start with the superhero. As all true devotees know, every
SUJJerhero needs a -;pec1al quality, a special weapon of sorne sort. I
bud already decided that our hero would be one of the Norse gods,
which should be quallty enough. But ... hls weapon. A high-ilying
deity would hardly ernploy a Shennan tank, or brass knuckles, or a
l3B gun. it would h<::rve to be something different, something unique.
Then, another thought hit rne. I wanted hirn to be able to fly. I
wanted hirn to be able to zip around the sky and make the trip be-
tween heaven zmd Earth withoul waiting for Pan Am. The Hulk sirn··
t!lated Hight by into the air; the Human Torch did it by
bursting into flarne; Spidey had his webbing and swung around like
Tarzan. God only knows how Snperrnan rnanages i t - I never figured
that out. 1 didn't want to merely say, "There goes our hero, flying off
" I wanted it to be sornehow believable. And then I realized I
could solve- both problerns at once~. ~-with a hammer!
No need to go into all the sordid details now. If you1re a long time-
Thor bufl you know aH about it. If not, you'll find out as soon as you
read the' strip that follows. Suffice it to say that it suddenly all came
together when I figured that Thor, God of Thunder, would he perfect
for the job. I IikeJ the sound of his narne. It wns short, simple, easy to
rernernber, and if you lisped nobody would know.
But then there was the problem of empathy. I realized that it
wouldn't be the easiest job in the world to make a reader in Hoboken
develop an affinity for some long-haired nut in blue ti.ghts and helmet
winr,;s who also happens to be a Norse Thunder God. Still, one for-
mula that's always worked in comics is the girnmick of the secret-
identity hero. Also, thought I, this particular strip will be offbeat
enough to allow me to employ one of the oldest cliches in the book:
frail and feeble Dr. Donald Blake is in reality the most invincible
irnrnort.al of thern all-the rnighty Thor. I wanted Blake to be a sur-
geon because of the drarnatic possibilities it would later present. I
could envision themes where Thor is needed in Asgard ·but Dr. Blake
is needed on Earth to perform a critical operation (which none but
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ht: C<Hl perform, natch). Oh, the suspense, the tension, the choice that
must be rnade. Bt:sidcs, he could spend hls spare tinw romping about
wi1 h some ravishing registered nurse when the occaswn demanded,
or (',Vcn when it didn 1L Yep, I wns convinced. Donald Blake would be
a doctor, thin, lmne, defenseless-~~the exact antithesis of his awesornc
Asgardian alter ego.
Within rninutes I rushed to the typewriter and pounded out a
synopsis for L.arry. Even though 1 wouldn't be writing the script, I
:1lways tried to ensure that the basic concepts would be mine. Of
course Lt~:rry put in a lot of his own distinctive touches. One that I'll
never forget was his saying that Thor had an Uru hamnu-::r. \Vhen f
rpad that I tlgured t:he kid hDd done a lot of research and unearthed
the name of some ancitmt metaL 1 was proud of him. It wasn't till we
were dis.cHs'ilng it years h:ltcr that he casually mentioned that he'd
just rnade rhe nan1e up.I-Ie liked the sound of it. Well, I have to ndmit
that an Urn hammer sounds a lot rnore irnpressive than a plain, onii~
f1Llry carpenter's hammer. Pm still proud of him.
As for Joliy Jack, he had done his usual sensational job. He made
the Thunder Clod look just like a God of Thunder should. It took a lot
of courag0, too. You've got to rernember that Thor had long blond
hair before it becnrne fashionable ;:unong us rnere mortals ,.before
the Bentles had made the scene. Had anyone but Jack Kirby been
the artist, lt's: barely possible that the ol' hammer thrower's mascu-
linity might have been in question. But we rnanaged to carry it off.
Despite his cute little Uru hammer, his long curly locks, his name
which sounded as though the person calling him was tongue-tied, he
made the grade. The mighty Thor joined mighty Marvel's rnighty
fmnily of rnighty superheroes. And once again we'd hit the jackpot.
Apparently all of cornic·book fandorn had been breathlessly waiting
for such a publication. Goldilocks broke as many sales records as The
Fantastic Four, The Hulk, and Spider·Man had done before him.
But don't go 'way yet. There's more. Before you rend the origin
story which follows this unforgettable exposition I've got to tell you
what happened after Thor was finally launched. Larry, after writing
it and a number of other features, decided to concentrate on his art-
work and forgo his scripting activities. So who ended up writing the
Thunder God's adventures after all? How-'d you guess?
Now this is what I really want to tell you. The Thor that you'll
meet in the origin story which you're beginning to think you)ll never
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1 ~~t·t
to is rf~ally not quite the same as the Thor which developed later.
\Vhen I hegan to write the strip, which n1eans t.lctually putting the
words m <ill their littlf;: pink mouths, I decided that I wanted the harn-·
rner holder to speak more like a god. And ev~ryone knows that gods
dl! speak with hiblical :md Shake:::.pearean phraseology. So I slowly
and dcdiberntcly changed the entire style of the strip, f!lling it with
"thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" and "so be its" and "get thee
gonesn and like thnt. I've always been a nut about the poetic Havor-
of the Bible and the sentence structure and lilt of Elizabethan writ-
ing, and this was my chance to play with it. The reason I mention it
nnw is because I want to complin1ent you. Most everyone told tne
that no superhero strip could succeed if the writing were too archaic,
or too stylized, or too lyricAL Well, Thor is still one of Marvei's top
sellers, Cifter all these years, and that means that you're a lot smarter
nnd more literary than people gave you credit for. So congratulations!
Congratulations: also on the fact that you've managed to wade
through all ttwse words and pages and you 1ve tlnally made it to the
fourth plateau. Thus, without any further mlo! we open the floodgates
of reading enjoyment and nnleash upon you the origin of the mighty
Thor.
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EXHIBIT 34
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t1@:mmrr_j_
CONFIOENT!t\L Deponen~ Le .e.-
DateZ:._-'
1_3_-/ORptr.~
17 r.
-
www~cooo
AFFIDAVIT OF STAN LEE
STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
)ss.:
COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES)
STAN LEE, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I. I was born in Manhattan, New York in 1922 and currently reside in Los
Angeles, California.
2. To the best of my recollection I began my career in the comics industry in
1940 at the age of 17, when I was hired by a publishing company that was owned by my cousin-
in-law, Martin Goodman ("Goodman"), known as Timely Comics, Inc. ("Timely"), a division of
Magazine Management Company ("Magazine Management"), the umbrella company for all of
Goodman's publishing lines. When I came to work for Timely in 1940, Timely's offices were
located in the McGraw-Hill Building on West 42nd Street in Manhattan. Timely was already in
the business of publishing comic books and had several ongoing comic titles and was hoping to
add others. I was initially engaged to be the assistant to Joe Simon ("Simon"), Timely's then
editorial director, and to Jack Kirby, ("Kirby"), Timely's staff artist. When I began working for
Timely, my duties included everything from running errands to proofreading stories to erasing
stray pencil marks on finished artwork and preparing it to go to the engraver. I was working full-
time in Timely's offices as a "gofer" apprentice.
3. Timely had approximately a dozen employees at the time I began working
there and, except for Simon, Kirby and a few others, relied on freelance writers and artists for
creating material. The writers and artists, whether employees or freelancers, would receive their
assignments from Simon. After Simon told the writer and/or artist which title they would be
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responsible for, the writer was expected to come up with a story that continued from the last one
in the series. Part of the job of the writer also was to come up with ideas for new characters,
including new heroes, villains/nemeses and supporting characters, and introduce them into the
storylines to interact with the existing characters. Simon, as editor, would review the stories
submitted by the writer, make any and all changes he believed were appropriate, and the story
would be passed on to the artist that had been engaged or selected to do the issue. The artist was
then responsible for taking the script and creating the visual depiction, including the layout of the
issue and the looks of the characters. Because the artist typically drew in pencil, an inker would
then go over those pencil drawings and render them in ink. Next, a colorist would then color
Photostats of the drawings based on the instructions provided by the editor.
4. Some time after coming to work for Timely, I was asked to write captions,
blurbs, etc. and then two-page prose stories for the books. After consulting with Goodman,
Simon gave me the promotion to staff writer, and we agreed that I would continue to work for
Timely on a full time basis, and would continue to be paid a weekly salary as a writer. Between
late 1940 and late I941, I wrote numerous comic book issues for Timely. I understood that, as a
writer, it was part of my job to create new characters and stories, as well as new episodes of
established characters, and to come up with new ideas for characters to introduce into the
storylines. Timely, however, always maintained the right to direct the storylines and the right to
edit any aspect of the materials I submitted for publication, including the characteristics of any
existing or new characters I utilized in the storylines. At that time, it was typical in the industry
for comic book publishers to own the rights to the materials that were created for them for
publication. I understood that, because it was an essential part of my job as a writer to come up
with new stories and ideas for Timely, Timely would own whatever rights existed to all of the
-2- CQ: I,u'CfOC\1-fjr,;

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materials I created or co-created for publication by it, including any new characters that I
introduced into the storylines, and that I had no right to claim authorship to or ownership of those
materials.
5. At the end of 1941, Goodman learned that Simon and Kirby were working
after hours for a competitor and terminated them. He then promoted me to the position of
editorial director for the entire Timely line of comics. To the best of my recollection, by this
time, Timely had approximately a dozen comic book titles. Although Goodman ultimately had
the right to control and direct the content of every publication, I was responsible for engaging all
of the writers and artists, assigning particular writers and artists to each issue, and overseeing all
of the creative and editorial aspects of every publication. I also continued to write scripts, and
was paid by the page for the script work in addition to my salary as an editor. Between the end
of 1941 and the end of 1942, Timely published nearly one hundred issues and several new,
important characters were added, including characters that I co-created. I understood that it was
part of my responsibilities as both editorial director and writer to come up with new ideas,
including new characters, for introduction into the Marvel storylines. All of my creative
contributions during my time as editorial director for Timely, including my script work, were
created as a result of my having been engaged by Timely and were done at Timely's instance,
and I was paid by Timely for all of these contributions. During my time as editorial director,
Goodman had the right to edit any of the material I submitted, and I understood that Timely
would own whatever rights existed to any materials I created or co-created for publication by it,
including any new characters that I introduced into the storylines, and that I had no right to claim
authorship or ownership of those materials.
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6. On November 9, 1942, I enlisted in the army and Vince Fago ("Fago"),
who had previously reported to me, was appointed to act as editorial director in my absence.
Although I was no longer a full-time employee of Timely, I continued to write for Timely on a
freelance basis while I was in the army, communicating with Fago and Goodman by mail. Fago
would assign specific titles and issues to me, and I was paid on a page rate for the work that I
submitted. With respect to all of the work that I submitted, Fago (and ultimately Goodman)
maintained the right to edit my work, and I understood that it was part of my responsibility to
come up with new ideas and new characters for introduction into the storylines on the issues I
was assigned to write. I also understood that Timely would own whatever rights existed to any
materials I created or co-created for publication by it, including any new characters that I
introduced into the storylines, and that I had no right to claim authorship to or ownership of any
of those works.
7. On September 29, 1945, I received an honorable discharge from the army
and resumed my position as editorial director for Timely. While I was in the army, Timely had
moved its offices to the Empire State Building and had hired more full-time writers, artists,
production workers and business staff. When I came back to Timely, my responsibilities
expanded to include overseeing a team of editors who handled the different comic book lines,
and I continued to report directly to Goodman. I also continued to write scripts, and was paid by
the page for the script work in addition to my salary as editorial director, just as I had been doing
before I left for the army. I understood that it was still my responsibility as both editor and
writer to come up with new ideas for stories, including new characters to introduce into the
storylines for publication by Timely. Goodman still had the right to edit all of the material that I
submitted, and I understood that Timely would own whatever rights existed to any materials I
. 4. CONFIDENTIAL
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created or co-created for publication by it, including any new characters that I introduced into the
storylines, and that I had no right to claim authorship to or ownership of any of those works.
8. For the next twenty three years, until the fall of 1968, I maintained my
position as editorial director for Timely. 1 I also continued to write scripts for publication by
Timely, and was paid based on a page rate for those scripts. In my capacity as editor, I chose
specific titles that I wanted to write, subject to Goodman •s approval, and also assigned the artist
to draw the issue. Although I was given significant creative freedom, I continued to report to
Goodman and understood that Goodman had the ultimate right to control the contents of the
stories and to edit my work (and the work by anyone on my staff) if he deemed it appropriate.
Indeed, there were several instances where Goodman edited materials that l had submitted for
publication or suggested changes to storylines before the scripts were written. I also understood
that my responsibilities as editorial director for Timely included coming up with ideas for new
titles featuring new characters. When I came up with a concept for a new title featuring a new
character, I would discuss the title with Goodman, who would determine whether or not Timely
wanted to commission me to write it and my selected artist to draw it for publication. Although I
had no written agreement with Timely, it was our mutual understanding and agreement
throughout this entire twenty-three year period that my creative contributions were made as a
result of my having been commissioned by Timely to create the works, and that Timely would
therefore own whatever rights existed to any materials I created or co-created for publication by
it, including any new characters that I created for publication by Timely, and that I had no right
to claim authorship to or ownership of any of those works.
1
In May 1963, Magazine Managementffimely changed the name of its comic book line to
Marvel Comics.
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9. In the fall of 1968, Goodman sold the entire publishing business to Perfect
Film and Chemical Corporation, later known as Cadence Industries Corporation ("Cadence") and
the publishing division, including the Marvel Comics line, continued to do business as Magazine
Management. Goodman remained the publisher of the Magazine Management division and I
remained the editorial director for the entire Marvel Comics line through March 1972. I also
continued to write scripts, and continued to be paid for those scripts based on a page rate in
addition to my salary as editorial director. During this time period, my responsibilities remained
the same, and [had the same agreement with Cadence/Marvel Comics that all of my creative
contributions were within the scope of my employment and commissioned by Cadence/Marvel
Comics, and that I had no right to ownership of any of the materials that [ created for publication
by Cadence/Marvel Comics, including any new characters that were introduced into the Marvel
Comics storylines.
I 0. To the best of my recollection, in March 1972, I became the Publisher for
the entire Marvel Comics line, a position I held until I 978. Roy Thomas ("Thomas") took over
my position as editorial director, a position he held through sometime in 1974. When Thomas
was no longer editorial director, Len Wein took over that position for approximately 6 months,
followed by Marvin Wolfinan, who held the position for approximately one year, followed by
Gene Conway, who held the position for one month, followed by Archie Goodwin, who held the
position for one and a half years, followed by Jim Shooter, who held the position beginning in
1978. Although the various editorial directors took over my former responsibilities of running
the day to day operations of the comics line, I had the ultimate responsibility for the entire line
and acted as a creative consultant to the various writers and artists throughout this period. [ was
paid a weekly salary for all of my work. All of my creative contributions during this period were
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at Cadence/Marvel Comic's instance and expense, and I understood that I had no right to
ownership of any of the materials that I created for publication by Cadence/Marvel Comics,
including any new characters that were introduced into the Marvel Comics storylines.
11. From 1941 through 1978, 1 (together with numerous artists) created or co-
created hundreds of characters and introduced them into the storylines to be published by Timely
and/or Cadence/Marvel Comics. A list of some of the characters I either created or co-created
for Timely and/or Cadence/Marvel Comics appears on Schedule A. This list is by no means
complete. My contributions to all of the characters I created for Timely or for Cadence/Marvel
Comics during this time period were within the scope of my employment with Timely or
Cadence/Marvel Comics, as the case may be, and were instanced by Timely or Cadence/Marvel
Comics, as the case may be, and both I and the artist assigned to work with me on all of these
works (including those characters) were paid by Timely or by Cadence/Marvel Comics, as the
case may be.
12. On or about October 15, 1998, I entered into an Employment
Agreement/Rights Agreement (the "SLM Agreement") with Stan Lee Entertainment, Inc.
("SLM"). Pursuant to the SLM Agreement, I assigned to SLM certain rights that I would
otherwise have retained in new works that I intended to create for SLM and certain rights to my
own name and likeness. It is clear from the express language of the SLM Agreement that I never
assigned or purported to assign to SLM any rights to any of the works I had created for
publication by Timely or Cadence/Marvel Comics, including the rights to any of the characters
that I created for publication by Timely or Cadence/Marvel Comics. Nor could l--it was always
my understanding that Timely or Cadence/Marvel Comics, as the case may be, was the author of
. 7.
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those works as "works made for hire" under applicable copyright laws and that I had no rights in
any of those works.
13. My understanding that Timely or Cadence/Marvel Comics, as the case
may be, was the author of those works and that I had no rights in any of those works was
confirmed each and every time I accepted payment by Timely or its successors for my creative
contributions. For years I received checks from Timely and its successors that bore a legend
acknowledging that the payment was for "works for hire." I can recall no checks that I received
as payment for my contributions that did not bear this legend which acknowledged the payment
was made to me for work that had been created for hire for Timely or Cadence/Marvel and that
they owned the rights to all such contributions.
$it.+,. ttCd.4,.,.,,;. co.....,-t-, csf'~ll..,<f.:;

Sworn to before me this
J1 day of May, 2007
S!Ul"'
Notary Public
ST~
. 8-
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Schedule A
I. Abomination
2. Adaptoid
3. Air-Walker
4. Ancient One
5. Angel, a!k/a Archangel, Warren Kenneth Worthington III
6. Annihilus
7. Ant-Man, a/kla Yellowjacket, Giant-Man, Goliath
8. Ares
9. Atlas (appearing as Power Man, Smuggler and Goliath)
10. Attuma
II. Avengers
12. Awesome Android
13. Backlash, a!k/a Whiplash
14. Balder the Brave
15. Baron Mordo
16. Baron Wolfgang von Strucker
17. Baron Zemo
18. Batroc the Leaper
19. Beast
20. Betty Brant
21. Betty Ross Banner
22. Black Bolt
23. Black Panther
24. Black Widow
r\r :· .,
r·. 1 ~~-· 1: ~I
. 9. CUl\1 - I • •.
u1.:. "· 1 •
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25. Blastarr
26. Blob
27. Blonde Phantom
28. Boomerang
29. Captain Marvel, alk/a Captain Mar-vell
30. Cobra
31. Colonel Nicholas Joseph "Nick" Fury
32. Count Nefaria
33. Crimson Dynamo
34. Crystal
35. Cyclops
36. Daredevil
37. Destroyer
38. Doctor Doom
39. Doctor Octopus
40. Doctor Strange
41. Dormammu
42. Dragon Man
43. Edwin Jarvis
44. Egghead
45. Electro
46. Enchantress
47. Eternity
48. Exterminator, a/k/a Death-Stalker
49. Falcon
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50. Fandral, afk/a Fandral the Dashing
51. Fantastic Four
52. Fin-Fang-Foom
---53. Richard Fisk
54. Fixer
55. Flash Thompson
56. Foggy Nelson
57. Gal actus
58. Gargantus
59. Gladiator
60. Gorgon
61. Green Goblin
62. Grey Gargoyle
63. Gwen Stacy
64. Happy Hogan
65. Agatha Harkness
66. HateMonger
67. Hawkeye
68. High Evolutionary
69. Hogun, afk/a Hogun the Grim
70. Human Torch, a/k!a Johrmy Storm
71. Iceman
72. Impossible Man
73. Incredible Hulk
74. Iron Man
- II -
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75. John Jonah Jameson, a/kJa J. Jonah Jameson, J.J., and J.J.J.
76. Juggernaut
77. Kang the Conqueror
78. Karen Page
79. Karnak
80. Kamilla
81. Kingpin
82. Klaw
83. Krang
84. Kraven the Hunter
85. Leader
86. Living Laser
87. Lockjaw
88. Loki
89. Mad Thinker
90. Magneto
91. Mangog
92. Man-Wolf
93. Marvel Girl, a/kJa Jean Grey, Phoenix
94. Mary Jane, a/kJa Mary Jane Watson-Parker
95. Maximus, a/kJa Maximus the Mad
96. Medusa
97. Mentallo
98. Mephisto
99. Mimic
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100. Modok
101. Mole Man
102. Molten Man
I 03 . Mr. Fantastic
..---104. Mr. Fear aJk/a Machine Smith
105. Mysterio
106. Nightmare
107. Odin
108. Owl
109. Power Man, a/k/a Atlas, Smuggler, Goliath, Erik Josten
110. Prowler
Ill. Psycho-Man
112. Purple Man
113. Quicksilver
114. Ravage 2099
115. Radioactive Man
116. Red Ghost
117. Rick Jones
118. Robbie Robertson
119. Ronan the Accuser
120. Scarecrow
121. Scarlet Witch
122. Scorpion
123. Sharon· Carter
124. She Hulk
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125. Silvermane
126. Silver Surfer
127. Skurge, The Executioner, a/k/a Executioner II
128. Spider-Slayer
129. Spider-Man
130. Stiltman
131. Super Skrull
132. Swordsman
133. The Absorbing Man
134. The Avengers
135. The Beetle a/k/a MACH-IV, MACH-!, 2, and 3
136. The Chameleon
137. The Fantastic Four
138. The Incredible Hulk
139. The Inhumans
140. The Invisible Woman
141. The Lizard
142. The Mandarin
143. The Rhino
144. The Sandman
145. The Shocker
!46. The Skrulls
147. The Stranger
148. The Thing
149. The Vulture
CONHD~NT\i\i.
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150. The Wasp
151. Thor
152. Thunderbolt Ross
153. Tinkerer
154. Titanium Man
155. Toad
156. Triton
157. Uatu the Watcher
158. Ulik
159. Unicorn
160. Unus
161. Vanisher
·162. Virginia Pepper Potts
163. Volstagg
164. Wasp
165. Whirlwind
166. Willie Lumpkin
167. Wizard
168. Wonderman
169. Wong
170. Wyatt Wingfoot
171. X-Men
172. Ymir
- 15 -
CONFIDENT!!\!.
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EXHIBIT 35
JA774
.

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Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 3
WHEREAS, Marvel Entertainment, Inc. ("Marvel") and Stan Lee ("Lee") are
parties to an employment agreement, dated as of November 1998, as amended by a
Settlement Agreement between Marvel and Lee dated April 30, 2005 ("Employment
Agreement");
WHEREAS, since the execution of the Employment Agreement, Lee has
provided a variety of services to Marvel, including to its subsidiary Marvel Characters,
Inc. ("MCI"), within the scope of his employment, including but not limited to writing
comic books and introductions to collections of previously published works (the
''Works") for which Lee has been compensated accordingly,
Now therefore, in consideration of the payment of $1 and other good and valuable
consideration, the sufficiency of which is acknowledged, it is hereby agreed that:
(1) The Works were prepared by Lee within the scope of his employment;
(2) Neither Lee nor his successors or assigns will challenge the work made
for hire status of the Works, or any others that he may create in the
future for Marvel and/or MCI from time to time;
(3) If, for any reason, the Works shall be determined not to be ''work(s)
made for hire," Lee hereby assigns all right, title and interest, including,
but not limited to any moral rights to MCI in (a) the Works, and (b) any
materials hereafter prepared for Marvel and/or MCI by Lee;
(4) Lee and his successors and assigns agree to cooperate with Marvel, if
requested, to execute any documents Marvel reasonably requests in
order to effectuate the terms of this acknowledgement.
{00032172 EB}
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.

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Filed 02/25/11 of 3013 of 3
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have caused this Agreement

to be executed as of the day and year first written below.
MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT, INC.
Dated: February 23, 2006 By: /L~h'

Naml: John Turitzin
Title: Executive VP, General Counsel
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC.
Dated: February 23, 2006 By: £~:L·

Naml: John Turitzin
Title: President
STAN LEE
By:~
{00032172 EB}
JA776
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 2
EXHIBIT 36
JA777
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 2
, AGREEMENT made this I f day of )1/,Jk/ , 197f; by

and between ::rr;J/t'N /2t::Jtl'1 177r" · '· f ·
residing at . n /fVP>N ~ ~~~~F"/1.1.~ //~U
(herein •supplier") and the Marvel Comics Group,. a division of Cadence
Industries Corporation, 575 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10022
(herein "Marvel").
;
. MARVEL is in the business.of publishing comic and other
magazines known as the Marvel Comics Group, and SUPPLIER wishes to .
have MARVEL order or commis-sion either written material or art work
as a contribution to the collective work known as the Marvel Comics
Group~ MARVEL has informed SUPPLIER ·that ·MARVEL only orders or
commissions such written material or art work on an employee-for-hire . -;.
basis.· ·
-:]f;
THEREFORE, the parties agree as follows: :·:.if;
. '
rn consideration of ~.RVEL's commissioning and ordering
from SUPPLIER written material or art work and paying therefor,
SUPPLIER acknowledges, agrees and confirms that any and all work,· .·. J·
writing, art work material or services (the •work •) which have been·. . ·;·:
. ··-· :~
or are in the future created, pr_epared or. performed by SUPPLIEP
for the Marvel Comics-Group have been· and will be specially ordered
or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work·. and
that as such Work was and is expressly agreed to be considered a·
work made for hire~ ·
SUPPLIER · expressly grants to . MARVEL forever all rights
of any kind and nature in and to the Work, . the right to use SUP- -•
PLIER's name in connection· therewith and agrees that MARVEL is
the sole· and exclusive copyright· proprietor ther.eof having all rights
of ownership therein. SUPPLIER agrees not to contest MARVEL's •_':!X-
clusive, complete and unrestricted-ownership in. and .to'the Work.
~is Agreement-shall be-binding-upon and inure .to the. ben-
fit of the- parties hereto and. their· respective heirs, successors,- ·
administrators and assigns •.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have . executed _.'
-this Agreement as of the date first_ above written.
SuPPLIER MAR~-;- COM_ICS "GROUP, a. division

. \
of Cadence ilstri.es· Corporatio-n ';·' : .
. _· ., ' ::·: .. -~- ...:::..~
,. ..::~~~--
.·· .
_.,
.
·. ..,./..
·
~
··.·-~-
. .
~ . . ~
·•...:~
... ::." .
·--~
CONFIDENTIAL
MARVEL0008187
JA778
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 2
EXHIBIT 37
JA779
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 2
e)c.lo
and betwee~GR~~~NT ,-;;A:~e;Jhis f;-4 da:
residing at .l·.t;.'Z..
of r , 197 {'-, by.
-· Yt~te..t<JK.... p,::_.t ..>!AN fC:VJ::.?-) c.:A · q~·7.Tt-
(herein "Supplier") and the Ma:tvel Comics Group, a division of. Cadence
Industries· Corporation, 575 Madison Avenue; New York, NewiYork 10022
(herein "Marvel").
MARVEL is in' the business of publishing comic and .other·.

magazines kno••n as the .Marvel Comics· Group, :and· SUPPLIER · · wishes to
have MARVEL .order or commission either written ma.terial or art work
as a contribution to the collective work known as· the· Marvel . Comics
Group. MARVEL has informed SUPPLIER that MARVEL only orders or
commissions such written-material or art work on an employee-for-hire
basis. ·
THEREFORE, the parties agree as follows:.
In consideration of !JI.A..~VEL' s commiss.ioning and ordering

from SUPPLIER \vri tten rna terial or art work and paying. therefor,.
SUPPLIER ackno't~ledges, agrees and confirms that any and all work,
writing, art work material or services (the "Work") which have been
or are in the future created, prepared or performed by ·SUPPLIER ·
for the Marvel Comics Group have been and will be ·specially·ordered·
or commissioned for use. as a contribution to a
collective work· and ·
that as such jqork was and is expressly agreed to be considered a
work made for hire.
SUPPLIER expressly grants to MARVEL forever all rights

of any Jdnd and nature in and to the Work, the rigb.t to use .·.SUP-
PLIER 1 s name in connection therewith 'and agrees. that ·MARVEL •.. is ·
the sole and excl•lsive .copyright proprietor thereof having all rights
of ownership therein. SUPPLIER agrees not to contest · MARVEL's .ex-
clusive, complete and unrestricted ownership in and to' the Work.
This Agreement shall be· binding upon and inure. to the ben:-
fit of the parties hereto and their respective heirs, successors,·
administrators and assigns.
IN WITNESS WHERE9F, the parties hereto have executed

this Agreement as of the date first above written.
SUPPLIER MARVEL COMICS .GROUP, a division

of Cadence Industries· corporation
CONFIDENTIAL
MARVEL0008220
JA780
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 3
EXHIBIT 38
JA781
.

1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 3
Marvel Comics Enterprises

Board of Directors Att: Joe Quesada, Editor~in~Chief
417 Fifth Avenue
NY, NY 10016
4/28/08
Gentlemen:
I am here to ri~ht a wrong.

On Tuesday, Ill be meeting with your Editor~in-Chief, Joe Quesada. I have been with
Marvel Comics since 1946. Stan gave me my first job. Together we made history
with characters such as DareDevil, lronMan, Submariner, Captain America, Dr. Strange,
Captain America, Tomb of Dracula and so many others.
Most of these characters were languishing in a desk draw til the early 1960's when it
became my task to give them 'shine' ...give them star power. Stan would call every
month for more than 18 years briefly outline a plot over the phone. It was then my
responsibility to create and pace a dynamic storyline with a beginning, middle and end.
When the job was done, it was Stan's to lay in the dialogue and narrative surrounding
my sequential art.
I can't recall whether or not contracts were signed in those days. Pages were stamped
on the back 'work for hire'. It was my responsibility to pay attention to the 'front' of the
page! In the narrow field of comic art, one either worked 'for hire' or didn't work! Today~
81 years and most of my si~ht gone, I am finishing my final Captain America for Marvel,
"Captain America Civil War .
In all my years with Marvel, I've never been protected with retirement benefits.
As Marvel has built their empire into a multi-billion dollar iconic company, it has been
hard for me to feel entirely good about a company that has left me with no means of
compensation for my years of dedication and the realistic art that made those
Superheros and Villians so loved. I'm here to correct that oversight and appeal to your
sense of justice as honorable men.
Thankfully, due to my groundbreaking stylistic art on Marvel's characters, I've earned a

reputation world wide as being one of the most known and beloved artists to have
worked for the company. My name is totally associated with Marvel's as is Stan's.
Moreover, I am known as and have been Marvel's most prolific artists, having brought
to fame many of your most beloved Superheros. No other artist can lay claim to that.
(sic genecolan.comlbibliography).
I'm requesting a lump sum package of $1.5M to take care of my retirement needs.
Marvel has a great opportunity for positive publicity as a company that remembers
and takes care of 'their own'. The darker side of that would be publicity that would
tarnish their reputation. It's not just Marvel's fans that are world wide, but mine as well.
I speak on behalf of myself only for no other artist has done as much for Marvel's
success as much as me and for as long. I'm agreeable however, to keeping a
settlement with me private as you may wish.
JA782
.

1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3013 of 3
To quote one of America's greatest playwrites "A man is not a piece of fruit, you can't eat
the orange and throw the peel away!"
I eagerly await your positive and timely response.

Sincerely, r-;;~ 1'2 /
~~
Gene Colan
when I took on the responsibility of representing Marvel back in 1946, I took it seriously.
I took it to mean that every line I'd ever draw from that day forward would be the best I
humanly had in me. I'm very proud of myself, and Marvel. Now, I want you to take me
seriously and do the right thing.
JA783
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3011 of 3
EXHIBIT 39
JA784
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3012 of 3
MARVEL0018249
JA785
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 3013 of 3
tion to do so anyhow Kirby's best efforts wereAbduljones, Tbe Black

Buccaneer, Cyclone Burke, Detective Riley, and Popeye-inspired
Socko the Sea Dog. While Kirby helped create and write these strips,
he was not the exclusive artist nor did he own the rights to any of
them. Other shop artists also contributed work on an as-needed basis
and, in the tradition of "work-for-hire," Elmo owned all of the copy-
rights and the profits. "Everybody was 'work-for-hire,"' says Kirby. "It
was the traditional way that artists got jobs. The publishers made
certain that th<.:y owned the rights to everything. When you came in for
work, everything you did was owned by the guy giving you a pay-
check"
Later the same year, Kirby was given an opportunity to solo on a
strip for Associated Features Syndicate, a daily called Tbe Lone Rider.
Inspired by Tbe Lone Ranger, the new strip found only limited sue-
MARVEL0018273
JA786
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Page
EXHIBIT 40
JA787
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF Super Heroes
74, 01/26/2012,
66-10509510, Page295 of
Filed 02/25/11 3012 of 7
Page
Super- Problems·
by· Nar- F'recdland
Nt.w 'lcx'K. HeroJd. f(,'b4Jne.:
·.
Sw-doj ~~a. ZitU. .,
Jo..n~AW'3 q, I 'ill~
~ ~~3~§;.~rj§i~·~~~~~···
One-
b,& oheiiQdliU.villaill' ••
r...,..u..,boaroi~.• bilo•kt•l. shnt record in.-.
Earth from-:·. .·
sbo-COIDiict fofCe'. rayJ bombard• :
pictun'
Still: Leet. chief- writer-editor of "farm: . i
Coralcljlrelfj;producti!D ram Sol.IJrocbkJ,~'h'•• not dear.;· · ;
rhutfietra)'ltiiW'h~·-~H'etblabfouf-HCORdll.. I
•n~!ht!itpencittiii(ZIJG, ZIX. ZIK: at the-JIOina:ot i~-·1
P"""-_lli'O:olhtc.eomic.lioolt!. "'"_·-.wou. lcl h••.,_ wurecl· do a~·.!
le"".~-"111< thin.,\wbat'.coomle- forte: rayuouol'.lilfei..-:·.·1
nrejr,;,W!I;.Lf:ll'uwJ!IitJwritt.....:-~· ....oz-.pll"o,.SOJDeOO.·:·!:
hiiojp~ ' II . Q; • .•. ' · . ·. . . ·
'. t.~.~~~.O::.n;~;;~,;. v~;li.... ~.~.;;,:.M~dJ.q
•.m_~-
·-. ·: "'~-~-u:.roobl_i•e.:.at. R.~ H•rrilonrt..Ho'-' "'"'.•. j
th~li~l'\••lllli_humorous·~ thlnnlio&~t: tuto~uL. :j
ltl'q_~~b~I'TWlrdrabtoiD'capriYr. .:.j
:uldl'~~·nat~~ttdial-troasworkini""""Tuadar~e·A
Tlltln.liti\$'rit1a~J111111.tl Suedal'!'-hD-aubur.,_ ltrrratr.f ·~
cr~~~Jdioiicioil'm-complote;M'arYftmap'""kl"-' - . ·•
· 1-H'!ilaiJi,..,. iriaOcl!miinfo.w doa~a.fiaereprocb~cti....<, ·1
oi-:~·'f~.Cila~~.OiCa: wrinre: h~arin~OG· rha,
d . .~lftltifMWJ bacJolft.Ocmlien That-~ lXI tho~· l
p........Mimi·COaolcaat63SiMad~Aftllultlllctuidi;.:.j
• Ho~: tb;... t.- Yeclnico- FeU!nio. L liQ, vory- muda. youo.v ;
coririillt,rtt .... bOUIO' r ..,_ f t )'0111 rn !'~ . I
· ti':J...il _.t.a.pu- Som.bodp ha~:':. 'I
<hotnt,,tliW:a couple of·l:eo',. Marnl· ·
maateip'-a<• whiJa, ...... KR¢ItaiW.,.
filmO.~ ,..., rubcl.' ou~ witll•
vi.U.,'•~'.tfuo.. H'ateli Pierre.. Fellini~.
runiecl',P·atSian Lca't ofliCtwitb,.
a.- riled:Uio·iud~ mtourap~ hia..
lint! da,; ouD of- aickbect;..
. H•'•· nC.,...~· sap
-·to•.'
•• his.Yilla··
Roma l'mauppoaed to taklt'·
iWrtoc..Ud:· conYention. when~
rhe Swut c••rit1· -
a biwr audience· than.·
wheo hct spoke l>~t
- of rhe hippnt Khoolt
un Seaboard. Co-cci dormitories!
From thofrr Lcape to the PaciticCourCon-
ference• 12.5 campusn han thrir own ch:apter
ol thct ":l.leny Manel :l.hrchin11 Sociery," The
~l.lf.ll.S. ia at Odord and Camhridate, too.
Pre-call- "'•"•' lana at times ha•e raken
ro assemblinc on rhe comn of ~hdison :md 58th
Str«f. wariac wildlj wirh home--made signa whM·
cover anybodr :appean at the wcondwllnor windows
of llanel's three workrooms. "Like \v-e were rhr
Rr:atln or somethina.'' Lee muse1.
In terms of the rul world, ;~JI thit adulation
mnns rhar lbrnl circulation has triplf'd in three and a
half )·ear5. \Virh an .1nnu~l..::ircularion of JS million, .\h.rvd
(which puts out 17 :~uper.rype cumic hnob) is now :1 cnm..
f,uuble numbu two in the comia industry, ;:n11ually
r"tl~:in.r up nn the lonlt·t:~rahH~hrd Superm;an D. C. lin~.
~~~ nther rnmic boule puhli~hrr ,·:tn :ehmr anyrhina: lik~
JA788
.\1arve11 pnenomcnon '"''ca a:,tunu, "' u•c: .,,,·u•"'•• ••.- .. - ... -
.u·y h:uoretl of promorion tie· ins· is. Maninc to bloom, tu•t.
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012, 66-10509510, Page296
Filed 02/25/11 of 3013 of 7
Page
Forry thousand.lhrvelirea havr come: up with a dullar for•
rheir llerrr lla"el llan:hinlt Soo:ietr kiu. In the worb
:\re plasrie- modtlst .:amU',!. a Spidcr-MIJI. jaza record.\
:\ncl a telnision- cartOOII'" seri~~
"\Ve reallr· nerer e•pened'. all. thio, yo..,.;
knOw," Le-e admits. ur me:ua it started-out· aa. ·
• gorr, mootly. I just thouidtt maybe it.woulrl .n.c;:;-....
~1\1
he worth rryina. to UPIJ'ade. the mapainet:-
' little bit Audierrcn· nerywhtrtr' """"
~ettinc: hipper th.,. days.. Wh,· not' the'
«>mic bnnlo; audirn«• too?· And. rh--
>11 ot a suddat we-weregett~ 50()-.
Ietten a rta,.about.what ltrtlt'lati,..,. ·
rh'""' ttorift' were; anrl hOW!>,;,_.· ·
•i/ir..r.. \Vi: uted' tr>lfOI' abou~ nne: .
lettel' a year·••• 6t/orr...~ : '
Refcirot.St ... Lee droamerl•uP"
the- ••ltarnl• A~t: oi_ COmicaJ~ int~
196t.· Wlim·Lee wmt 10 worlo fo.,•·
rhe- comic. bonk diYitiOII' of< l.fartiti<·
C".Oodnw{o. publishlne: outfil:l he ,.,..:,
th ynfl'. old< B;:. 1961! .hi. hadl. ""-' t~l'i
maaufacturina ......Wttripornthe:..m.. ,.,C.I.o
.,...,.._.fot20'ye.,...dt'wu uttlDc'h»W-o -• .• ,
ri~.-. . ... ' .-.... ' .. ':_:· ....~~···~-~..·;~.:.;...;:·
aduJc., o u - the- comiC., oil' meil1 rla" ac- puberty•• n.;.,.

c-orefutl;- idOc!M.oampl"' ift: 1ul..• Feilrer'• Grt•t. Comir.·
Boo!.Hiro... oncholoo &inpleuureliea-tbep a~ per•·:
feet cxampl"' ot thei., fo""'' Buto U< the n - olol rirerl>i
srori.,..;uui ttilf-drawinp.wcre.trotteol.ouc-ycn alt..- yen_
they coulrlo'~ keep, up the-paca."Ha~o.- puaclt:! Ba,..,
maa woul.tquip- •• he. deekerl: • W'&ur~ idioe pu•• werot
rhe· hciPI:I' oto olrll comO. book. h u - -"Whu tb' r· andt--
"Huh!" ,..,., .., expreui..., .... Captaili; Manu·•••"' ,oc:·
Superboy; 01>: retuminc. froaa- a recerro: adventur"' ia the·
:utciml paat9 nid. ··By~ nowt Hemalu ancl- s~· Thi.~
is hardlr aa enmple of super-cannnati..., poln .. outJoho--
Butterwortb;; Clua oi• '64, in hio Colptw·Milroo• study;•.
'"SpidOf'o:Uan· striv"'· for Status in C_.;tin; Com;..;
Book World of fntincre Super Heron."'
Comic boolo supoa beiap had miaJ!ty powera·
hut net pefiOIIJIU.,.__ until, Stan> L.., trieol. •
out the- Fantutic Four in October. 1961.
The- whole new tooe of. Lee'a Yisioa to
I brine· humaa reaUty inro comic booka wu•

set in an earlr F. F. appoann"- (All ::\la""l
L"haracten quickly pick up- alfectiOData. nic:kaamn.) This
5uper crimc-fiahtintr team wu eric:ml fro• their l-1~
hauan okyiCfaper HQ. beca!IMt they couldn"t IICf up thr
rent. The stodr: market innstmmtl that paid their lab-
ntory hill• harltomporarilr failed.
The Fantastic Four, who appear in their owrt comic
.book and guest ~tar in other Marvel publication~ are
\
hud :u much by interpenonal conlticts as by super villainL
Invisible Girl. Sue Storm Richarda. is :alwars buq;in~~t
hubby Reed Richardt, llr. Fantastic. ro lea,. off with the
world-shakinl( invenriona already :and take her out to a
~ .liscotheque. One sonwtimn wonden how much the phallic
implication of llr. Fan1uric's hody .. •tretchint power has
ro do with boldine thi. ~tormy couple toa;erher. Sue's kid
hrothrr. Johnnr, is the Human Torch. He Rames, tlirs-
.tnd swinas off-duty in a Co"ette Srin.:r::ty. The grumpiest.
most comple:c:, most ambiv:tlcnl' .1nd most popular mrm~r
nf the Fant:astic i'~our is the- Thine. "lbshful. hlue-n·ed
11rnjamin J. Grimm," as the Thinwt likes to rdcr to him·
--~If in more l)·ric.:al moments, usually ju~t ~fore i5~ouin~:
hi~ cbrion cry, "It's Clohberin' Time,'' has :u;tuall,. .lr-
'~rtl'•j til thr. ,j,le nf the villains on •ll.""C:I!I'inn.
JA789
l.t& c:llla· Rtra· Grimm. ":a. tnRiet rDDftlter who: chrer&~~
Case Case 11-3333, Document
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF
hionHII 74,the 01/26/2012,
Document
up hy a.:tinlf doWlt •••66-10 509510,
a goo.l m:anFiled Page297 of
witb a 02/25/11 3014 of 7
Page
hearr:• The· ThiiiJr. ralkt• like jimmr: Ounnt"' antl.
1:00<1-: re- te>• be> biller• A'
rocket mi.hap with ..;...,lei raw• .,,..;,~
. _, tha· rat oi.th•l'.F. iuper:po••~ri~
that caa
wilt. be I
Buc·it~:M~~~:kt,;~:;·:!~
Baa:_.
....., u. ...O.a...w. ahockirtc; klaciiJ; .,w, Unci..
UaJI(...,.;r!Jao,..he;wme:iaro. abo. biii;. HI* ·
bali•'- hia iaataD& telnislta otdd- Biiull&o tril,...,,ai
libo maoit-ot-.Splda-;Uaa'li brief;..._ ol> wlctorn;
tumedotliOaab-<,::·. ·- .. ·
a paycbed made oiarte>Sp~t~a-Mm.

Tciobep>bia aecrrt idaW,.a .... ~ =~~~~==:
inliou.l.hemuldD'rlliYaoutnabbeaoi.e.oi the
So Spider.M... ,..._,_""" baalr.....-•••. ,
Banlo L1erlt: I'll hawe 1 0 - - identiJicatioal-'•
Spidu-M1111 Wllu ahouc my .COSTUliE~·
Baa&. Clerk: Doa'c- be sUirl ANYONE' am wear·.,
costume I Do J'OU. hne- a social sccuriEJ card. or • driYer"li
liC<IIIe ia. the name of Spidc,..A-Iaal.
Wanderina off ia· a blu• funlr, Spider-Man. jun•
shruqed u~~Ct~~~«mediJ aa a burclar ran by. When he "'"
back homo• 10 (a r'lrenahly uaauthmric rural-luokina).!
Forelt HiUo, of courM it turned out rhac the hurclu ha.U
just murdered Uncle Ben. ·
Spider·llaa dulr vowed to be mont public·spirired;,..,
rhe futur~. But now he rt'•lll had moaq problc~- Aune;;
~lar would not heu of his quitrinl school. But how could>l
he support the household with a part-rime job anclsriU liaoi<j
time 10 catch- croobl He tried to solve every thine br coin~~t
un salary with the Ji"antasric four. (All Lee' a -.:haractcra ·
are locattd· :arouncl. ~ew York 311d lend to run into coach!•
other on rhc job.) But the F.F. \W':lnted to krep thtir non~·
rrutit foundatioo statua ;md rurntd him down. ''You came-"..:o
tn rhe wronc place, pal,'" said the Thine unsympatheticallJ•··
"'"11lit ain"t Cmrral ~Joron..''
,·\t the mnmrnt. Pttrr Puhr has a science scholanhiP-
JA790
ro Srate Document
Culle.:e ;uulDocument
supplemen-ts freelandn~ news
it by509510,
Case Case 11-3333,
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-10 Page298 of
Filed 02/25/11 3015 of 7
Page
photos. His ~peciahy is •lelayed-o~tion pi:oc of hia spider self
in combat. It's not much money-Peter Parker is a lousy
businessman-but. at Inn it picks up the tab lor Aunt
:\by's many hospitaliz:uions.
The Hulk ia the mo111 unstable character in the history
of comic hoob. At first, scientisc llruce Banner- ond the
jull,. .:reen mnnater had a ~:amma.ray induced Jekyll-Hyde
~~tenaiJC}'. But now the Hulk is in permanent poaseuioo.
havin~: absorbed some of. Banner'i I.Q. but none ot his·
peaceable' wayso H ulky will b.Uh anythin.r that ~:~m in hi.,
•var-indudinc· .llarvel't other super heroes- and the· U. S.
ur SoYirt Armed F orus.
Tlior; th., Norse thunder~. recend,.· had to ---··
rake an, elnaior to' rhe to!) ot a midtown sk,..
~raper before he could· lly oil' to Asia tta.stop.
a rampacinlf supe~ witda..Jocror-becallle'
cop· wouldn'c let· Tlior. whirl· hi., mallie.;
hammer on a crowded street. A wom110·
i~. th., ele~r11toJr loobd' up at. Tlio~·s.
shoulder•lenctb' blond. c:urlt- and
mused;~ "Tliao- REMINDS, me-1'111'
Jue fo" a PER1U.ANENT'ar-~--··••
P'racricall)\ enry· COIJtumed: hero
i~ Lee't RCW· lofa'noel- Comio mJth--··
oiOIQ' displaces enou(l)l symbolic wci~:ht:
ro bec:omestriat for :m Englislr Lit I'll. D.
thesis.·
The. unrcmitrinalJ. rraKic Hoa- Maa
. usuallr· h... to shlepr home- hi. rranaiator•.·
powered-armor for rec:har«io&\aftcrali~thr..
Sin~' h~ hnat. (c:he"-edt up• hr- VIet Conl(c:
buller&) ii alao tnnaiatorizcct..rhiz tend~ to be-.-
como- a trickr business. Daredml; rmnl. of·.
only •n•
~ famou• comic: boolr. name, ia now the '"orld'•
malted hera; He strul!ales. tnr,ou~:Jl'-"
"'itll' hia indomitable will and. '.'r~dar ---·--·"•
acquired b,- getting run oYer with a rruckful of uranium.
Equall,· indomitable is the unahucn; cipr-chompina Nick
Ftiry, ,.,ho. function• simultaneously in· S,t. Fu1 ,,,/ hi1
/I owl)•# Comnr•,Ju, and Nir! Fur1, .I tnt o/
S.H./.K.L.D; A black cye·patth disrin~tuiaha the post. war
Fury from hia military self.
Howner; Captain America, that fightin~t hero of
\Vorld War II, comes on more like Captain Anomie these
Jays. R~turnin& to acrion in 1963. alter 18 yran of sus-
pended animation in an icebur&, he tlon more broodin~t
uvn his destiny than any l:aptain 5incc Ahab. "The TL\IE
I Jiye in belonp to others. ••. The only thin& that's right-
iully mine is my ·PAST. Can I ncr lor~~:et !JUCKY, the
trenoger who was like ~ brother to me? \Vhat has bec:omr
ul SGT. DUfo'FY?"
Lee ohvays provides lull backstaj!e nedits lor these
rJli\."S:
IJombastically Wrimn hy ... Stan Lee
l!rilliandy Drawn hy .•. Jack Kirby
ll'~fully Inked hy.,. Vin.-e l:olttra
~~~~ly Lenmd hy •.. Artie Simek .
llti-.~ to. :'in derail of the month's nutput is run
minor;fiil'Jliarnlitr•
_., ..•. In •in~:le mot fur prai•e in the lene,.
P:ll:f'' .. .
JA791
"The art wa. ~rut, t!'Pftiallr Pillt .S. l"anel
Case Case 11-3333,J, Document
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
Document
which W:ll· il perftct of rhe509510,
66-10
rendition Page299 of
Filed 02/25/11
h. am's 3016 of 7
Page
coiTf'Ct.''
~ o error i1 too minOr for complaint· •• :
••••• .tml. Cap' had~ m. 'JC where hit
•tar shoulcl baYW """ nn hie <hoot.!'
Yaunc drnma.· of: romancr appea~·
ohm in· thn• Plllft'• H
"Pti._ d..,'t m••c Su!J.Marinn 1- hi•di1111itr.·

He· rcmindl - ot. '"l'M• Sheilrl••• II s.... ancl• ch• ·
Sur let Will...,._ IOI)J' at- br..il! iJr,,, ·
"Could.,.,. mar he publll& a lattor co pareatao·
or ..,_thin&!: I'm. rir..t· of' ilerrinc ...,ric- ftom.·
mr moth or about. h..... ridicvt ..... it.loob fo ...
--·VJ
a Rlce':-l1: aopbamor&l"'stanclintlr..,of.c•.
a drupiDN halllllin& with..,.. cilho-,.aro·.
ol~ •ut
oYOr the- lur-• ......,. ol. F.F; ,,.. .
,,.,.;,.,., (l' IIOC' "'""" but· ic- <Oil'-:
JOcentaanci-I.WII>Iefhilll'rcacltl!ear-->'.
fin•ll'~ ..;.
.~ ·r·'. rum.~ .me.
•• , _1 •·:
-~ .. ~···_ . :·· _·'
mr. qn;;;... ••1'1i.
·•
•houe:rh.anbnche,ot•. mai..:~t ""'"'''~''
WON ........... to.. tllla -. -' .
He-uu..toi.....-.. _,.,. tile-lana,.,. ·- . · "·' ·
•r Poaiblft:. "TTIAt'a. "'"' licfii tell"'-' II&: wh.it> thq> waa .
Hii.printidifa hu••'-""--baa'c:urtail""fi1' eliot,
domac>dl.:'oi; • - - "f· ••"-' ~ wife~ out: hl'.diallirr.'
.. -- wi$f....,.thrceorfour.r-a.Wftlro:Tiiat ~
· ._. __ , herrniaolabiji- ha....,. m..• th.,..,._l'ilai worlin:.
, entTd.,.aadlha""'t.~abfj,h>taba.-.aca'ri
;,.,..tli,..,.,._.~· n.- dliil; bl~- M""-t...';....._,,
to._,... Briiisfa. modeL. m.,p...,.· 1.....-..
IJ.;.- ii> a;·.· I
talmte¥ orrio~ liutt,... pamcwulr, exci!N- aboa..,OI
.. <omic boobo"· ; : . . . ... . . -~
·· . Prin~itonl· Univi!nitJ!..~.ll•r~· )farwel·~{
Marcbinc Soci•IJ"- up w ddepti- • • - . .
tho-: IDAIIH th<> ""'"" da,.. i'u..Jo.. Flo- Stein- "
: bor!ri.theHnotariatiatuol·ManelBuU-··
BW!eM-iiiOIIOIIOI uaborcd the-Kn>UP'io"".
rile. P-""""" (. am- feU..W..~ aaid;·
Lee,. Mr· ll1l'ft- it'.- "'pretty bia
dioappointo •
· meftt', huh l'!·
Thl1· au urN~ hie ii Wun't. ·
Dao't· ceU -·whaeo JD,., li. . about
oht boob.~ Lee rcqucstttf. "ll'o more hoi.--·
'I :ro-..teR.m~what-yo1t dan't li'k~!·
"Thore'a a >chis"" i.o the cult ...r· Spidey'• pencNial.·
lifr;~ 'aiel G~J&.. ~'Faction•· are- formina. aboU.1· aJl. tfte. play.-·
Pettr:_ P••••r'oi-. adjuatmmt probl•- an- aettin!l' l•cely. ~
Lee- hutmcol- to nplain... "I' d•'t plot Spidar-:Han-
•or mor•• St.,.. Dit•o, rho arriat, h.. bc..a doina cba 01orie.:
l ~:;ucw I'll lea•• hi... alooe until saln start tD slip. Sinat·
Spidey lOt so popular; Ditb chinb he's oh•KCniua of the
\\'orieL \Ve wen afJuina 10 mudJ onr plot linn I rold him
ro stan makinlf up hi• o'"' srorin. He "·on't let anrbodJ'
~~~ink his drawinp nrher. He just drops ofl rhe finiahfti
e•Kn -"th llOiel at oho marains and I 611 in the dial-.
I nner know what he'll come- up with next, but it's int~r-.
rsrinl( ro work that way.'"
,\ctuallr, Lre hardly n.r writn nut a st:mda~d pic- :
rure--hy.picture teript an, more. (He rtanriF hind thrte-
usistant writers. after ))0 applicants Bunked a sample·
F:.ntastie Jo·our assianment. But he doesn't think the boys
.ue u•J1 ret for anrrhin.: more demandin~r thoan llillic the
~lod•l aod Kid Cult.)
Lc. arrins ar his plots in son qf ESP .srJSjiJM wldt.
rhe artists: He insuts- rV di~ altu the tticrurr l_:avoul.
(omes in. Here he is in action :u his w«kJp 1-"riday momina
'ummit mcctinc wirh Jack "Kine" Kirby, a veteran rumic
hnok :~rtist. a man who ueatcd many of rhe Yisions of your
chih.lhood .1nd min,.. Tie Kina is a middle-a~ man with
h:1c:JO' t7H and a harQ Ru~rt Hall·i~ 'uir. ffc is suc.in~:
.1 hu~:c r::rC'm ~hr.u ;~nd if }'UU stood nn:t to him on rhe
JA792
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 74, 01/26/2012,
66-10509510, Page300 of
Filed 02/25/11 3017 of 7
Page
maU.:diJ.
A&eofc....-..
berStaaLcehun'r
th6. ,.,.a. that:. wOlD(
hina tlue .. thtc:.
priaftior... Ht..U
Trii••-'•·MBf~
...,N... of.U.
\Vcek-:- teen·.
cootnt hack ·
at o16·· ~~~~~~
O.Wi~
C.:lia-:
H.S.
JA793
CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing Special Appendix/ Joint
Appendix were served electronically by the Court’s ECF system and by priority
mail on those parties not registered for ECF pursuant to the rules of this court.
Pursuant to Local Rules 25.3 and 30.1, six paper copies of the Joint Appendix and
Special Appendix have been mailed to the Court on the date this brief was
electronically filed.
Dated: January 13, 2011 /s/ Marc Toberoff

Malibu, California Marc Toberoff (MT 4862)

Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
mtoberoff@ipwla.com

Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby, Neal L.
Kirby and Susan M. Kirby

Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 3

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Case 11-3333, Document 74, 01/26/2012, 509510, Page1 of 301

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME III OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME III OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

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By: Sarah J. Miner, LSR

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

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TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580

TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580