Room Pressure Build Up

DM2 (Mechanical) 21 Oct 07 22:14

I'm trying to determine what pressure will be exerted on the walls of a room after a known quantity of air is introduce into the
space. I've been advised what the leakage rate is but thats not important at this stage. I'm trying to convince someone that
they need pressure relief venting for the space.

If the room is 15,000 cubic feet and the air is being released from 10 cylinders, each having a capacity of 500 cubic feet
(uncompressed) of air, what's the formula to determine the room pressure in psi?

Regards,
Dan
zekeman (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 0:31
14.7*(15000+10*500)/15000

desertfox (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 0:36

Hi DM2

Use the gas law:-

p1*V1/T1 =p2*V2/T2

where p1 & p2 = pressure

V1 & V2 = volume of room and cylinder/s

T1 & T2 = temperature of gas in room and cylinder

If you know the pressure of gas in the cylinder and the temperature of gas in room and inside cylinder are the same
the above reduces to:-

p1*V1 = p2*V2

therefore if p1 is the room pressure then

p1= p2*V2/V1

regards
desertfox
zeusfaber (Military) 22 Oct 07 4:04
You can do this pretty much by eye

1 atm is about 15 psi, so for a 15000 Cu Ft room, each additional Cu Ft is going to give you about a 1 psi overpressure.

10 x 500 Cu Ft is 5000, so expect a pressure rise of up to 5 psi.

That's an awful lot of air to let out in a hurry - so unless the compartment is airtight, or you're planning to burst the cylinders,
the actual pressure obtained is going to depend on the relationship between the leak and fill rates.

A.

byrdj (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 8:25

less than 1psid will blow off an inspection door when unbolted.

and 2"H20 (0.1 psid) will make a door very hard to open
DM2 (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 12:20
Thanks for the help everyong.

Just a little insite...This is an Inert Fire Suppression system, of which there are 3 different types:
1 - Inergen, marketed by Ansul, consists of Argon, Nitrogen & CO2.
2 - Argonite, marketedd by Kidde, Consists of Argon & Nitorgen.
3. Argotech, marketed by Minimax (i think), Consists of Argon.
4. N100, Marketed by Nomi in Japan, Consists of Argon.

The concept is to displace the existing volume of air, with it's 20.9% concentration of oxygen, with this agent which will
reduce the oxygen content to below 15%.

Each one of these cylinders hold about 500 cubic feet of gas. In general terms, the amount of gas needed is between 32% and
40%. 字串 8

Most people are familiar with Halon 1301 systems, which didn't increase the room pressure enough to require the use of
pressure relief vents. Some of the other agents (FM-200) have only recently issued warnings regarding pressure relief venting
and this only because a brick wall was damaged during a discharge.

My current situation is with a building manufacture (MCC Switchgear building) who seem to think that his building doesn't
need any venting and that he walls will handle a 1psi horizontal force (i.e. 144lbs/ft2).

I'm sending him a video on what happens to rooms when these suppression systems discharge and there is insufficient
venting. It's amazing what a little, er...a lot of pressure can do to a door frame, door, wall, etc.

Thanks again for the help.

Dan.

Compositepro (Chemical) 22 Oct 07 12:31

I saw a system like this abandoned in place after it was installed because all the permits and requirements were not fully
determined before hand. Compliance with all the requirements would not be economical. People can be in the room and
suffocated. Alarms, procedures, emergency ventillation were required. 字串 3

rb1957 (Aerospace) 22 Oct 07 13:07

then the building manufacturer is saying he needs to vent, as we're anticipating a 5psi increase (and he thinks the building is
good for 1psi).

also wouldn't you have to be very carefull with these vents, to ensure they're venting the O2 rich air (and not the
suppressant) ... and you would want these vents venting flame either ...

DM2 (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 14:03

Compositepro -
With the Ansul Inergen System, the Carbon Dioxide in the agent stimulates the respiratory system, which allows you to
remain in the protected space.

rb1957 -
We recommend that the vents be placed on the ceiling. When the system discharges, the air within the space is displaced
while the pressure forces the vent, or damper open, until the pressure is below the opening force of the damper, which is
usually weighted or has a spring return. Testing has demonstrated that this is sufficient.

The advantage of Inert agents is:

1. The agent doesn't decompose in the presents of high temperatures. Halon 1301 would experience thermal decomposition at
about 1200°F. Many of the Halocarbon gases experience thermal decomposition at about 900°F. This is why the NFPA 2001
standard, as well as NFPA 12A (Halon 1301 standard) mandated a 10 second discharge, where as with Inert agents a 1 minute
discharge is permitted. The objective is to get the agent in the space and develop an extinguishing concentration before the
fire has a chance to compromise the extinguishing properties of the agent.
2. Inert agents have a vapor density similar to air. Halon 1301 and the newer clean agents (i.e. FM-200, Novec, etc.) have a
vapor density substantially higher than air and therefore tend to "Fall" and find openings in the protected space to leak
out. For this reason is far more important to have fairly air tight room for these agents so the extinguish concentration will
remain in the protected space. Testing demonstrated that it's often difficult with Halon and the new Halocarbon agents to
remain in the space for more than about 10 minutes. With Inert agent I've seen people walk in and out of doors to the space
and the concentration remains for 30 minutes or better. 字串 6
3. The cost to install a Inert agent is much higher than Halocarbon agents due to hardware costs, however the cost to recharge
is about $0.26 per cubic foot of protected space compared to $0.85 with Halocarbon agents. One (1) discharge and the cost of
the Inert agent becomes cheaper (Lower longterm cost of ownership).

Again Thanks for the help.

Dan

zekeman (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 14:53

You have to give us the composition of the gases in the cylinders before we can determine the excess pressure. We all
assumed (erroneously) from you initial description that the gas was air. If your gas is primarily nitrogen, then the solutions are
close. All the others will be different from the 5psi we estimated.

DM2 (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 15:19

The mixture of agent is called "Inergen".

I consists of a 572 cubic foot cylinder with the following mixtures: 字串 5

1 - Nitrogen 52%
2 - Argon 40%
3 - Carbon Dioxide 8%

Physical properties of Inergen:

1 - Specific Gravity: 0.085 lbs/ft3, (1.36 kg/m3)
2 - Vapor Pressure:
a) 1925 psi @ 32°F (132.7 bar @ 0°C)
 b) 2175 psi @ 70°F (149.9 bar @ 21°C)
c) 2575 psi @ 130°F (177.5 bar @ 54°C)
3 - Vapor Density: 1.1 (Air = 1)
4 - Approximate molecular weight: 34

dcasto (Chemical) 22 Oct 07 15:29

The zfactor would be the only change. It is .945, so we are off 5%.

DM2 (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 15:36

I'm not sure what you mean by "Z Factor"

Can you enlighten me?

Dan

zekeman (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 18:45

I took another look and find that the 5 psi is correct as well as the calculation. The pressure change is in proportion to the
number of moles, regardless of the mixture and 5000 SCF added to 15000 SCF increases the the mole content by 1/3.
So, I stand corrected.

quark (Mechanical) 22 Oct 07 23:59

Z is compressibility factor. BTW, why did you say "uncompressed"(is it free volume, i.e reduced to atmospheric pressure, you
are talking about)?

The differences in density can be used to effectively vent the oxygen from the room.
DM2 (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 0:09
Quark
Yes, I was referring to the volume of Inergen gas after it leaves the cylinder (i.e. free volume).

With regard to density, how would I go about using the different density to separate the oxygen from the other gases. The
difference in density is only 10% (i.e. density of Inergen as a mixture of all 3 gases).

The Inergen gas is discharged through a piping network and nozzles placed at the ceiling of the protected space (usually about
40' apart). The pressure in the cylinder is 200 Bar but passes through a pressure reducing orifice to allow for the use of
thinner wall pipe, thereby keeping the installation cost down.

Regards
Dan

quark (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 0:36

First, I will try to calculate what quantity should be vented. The atmospheric pressure is 14.696psi and if your room is
designed for 1psig then the room pressure can be 15.696psia maximum. Then, the room can accomodate
(15.696/14.696)*15000 = 16021 cu.ft (under isothermal conditions). You have to vent 5000-1021 = 3979cu.ft. If it takes 10
minutes for 5000cu.ft air to be discharged into the room, then your venting rate will be 500 cfm which can be started 2
minutes after suppressant is released into the room.

To arrive at an opening size, you should use Q = 4005*A*dp1/2. So, A (sq.ft) = 500cfm/(4005)*(27.68inches WC)1/2 = 0.024
sq.ft 字串 1

I am not sure about the standard way of doing it but, ideally, I would go for bottom entry of the supressant as it is denser than
air. The venting will be done from the highest point in the room. The sudden expansion of the supressant from the inlet pipe
should be enough reason to push the room air to the top.

DM2 (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 0:50

Hey...Thanks...

It appears i forgot to post some information. According to the building codes, Chapter 16 (structural) states that the minimum
horizontal force a wall should withstand is 5lbs/ft2 (0.035psi). This is typically what we assume when calculating the vent
area.

The discharge time for Inert gas systems (i.e. this system) is 1 minute as opposed to 10 minutes. 10 minutes is the preferred
hold time for the concentration.

I'm assuming I can simply change those values in your example and I should have the results...right?

Dan.

quark (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 1:10

Yes. So, extra volume is 35.72cu.ft. Vent (5000-35.72)in one minute. So, A = 1.26sq.ft. I would go for a bit extra area here,
particularly, if you want to have multiple openings (to account for coefficient of discharge). Use a factor of 0.75 (i.e
1.26/0.75) which is about 1.68sq.ft

DM2 (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 1:21

Hey...You guys are great!

Thanks for the help!

Dan.
byrdj (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 8:16
DM2, a question.

Are the "Vents" specially design to surppress flame? like though layers of fine mesh screen?

DM2 (Mechanical) 23 Oct 07 15:13

byrdj; 字串 5
The vents are "Fire and Smoke" rated. Fire because it's a code requirement to maintain the fire rating of the wall, and smoke
because it has the lowest leak rate.

I'm thinking the vents your talking about are more like "Flame Arrestors" however the hazard area doesn't have sufficient risk
nor are the fire characteristics such that a flame detector would be required.

The hazard is typically overheated insulation on wiring.

ccw (Nuclear) 31 Oct 07 1:15

When you said "switchgear"....Back in the day when we did overvoltage destructive tests on electrical contactors, the
"blockhouse" we used had a pressure venting roof. The overpressure from metallic contacts vaporizing in an overloaded
switch could otherwise blow out the observation window.