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Book of Thoth. Help!

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Bernice

19-01-2009, 23:24

Hoping this is the right place for this enquiry.

I have the LS Etteilla, Book of Thoth. (Etteilla ver.lll ). The one-word divinatory meanings are
written on each card but not in english, does anyone know where I might find a translation for
them?

When in doubt = read the LWB, which I have done.

But the images and LWB meanings don't seem to match.... any help would be appreciated.

Bee :)

Le Fanu

08-02-2009, 23:55

If you buy the Grimaud Grand Egyptian Etteilla, the meanings are in both French and English...})
It isn´t exactly the same deck, but you can piece the meanings together...

Moonbow

09-02-2009, 02:04

Hi Bernice
Its been a while since I read the site but the best reference to Etteilla that I know of is the Villa
Revak site (http://www.villarevak.org/astro/main.html). Lee's review is great too; The Book of
Thoth Etteilla Tarot (http://www.tarotpassages.com/etteillathoth-lb.htm), but it sounds like
you may already have read that. And of course, our own Solandia has given the translation for
the Majors here on Aeclectic (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/book-of-thoth-
etteilla/review.shtml).

Is this deck still available? I have the other Etteilla deck (Egyptian Gypsies Tarot) and have
considered this one.

Bernice

09-02-2009, 02:40

Many thanks for responding Moonbow.

I've been browseing the Villa Revak site - it's really interesting. But I've got no further re. the
french text (except for Solandias translations).

Very odd that the LWB gives meanings for a different version deck!

Bee :)

The crowned one

27-03-2009, 14:00

Hi Bernice

Its been a while since I read the site but the best reference to Etteilla that I know of is the Villa
Revak site (http://www.villarevak.org/astro/main.html). Lee's review is great too; The Book of
Thoth Etteilla Tarot (http://www.tarotpassages.com/etteillathoth-lb.htm), but it sounds like
you may already have read that. And of course, our own Solandia has given the translation for
the Majors here on Aeclectic (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/book-of-thoth-
etteilla/review.shtml).
Is this deck still available? I have the other Etteilla deck (Egyptian Gypsies Tarot) and have
considered this one.

Thanks for this. It is worth bumping.

Bernice

08-04-2009, 17:43

Moonbow: Is this deck still available? I have the other Etteilla deck (Egyptian Gypsies Tarot) and
have considered this one.

Oops, missed this question (sorry). Yes, I think it must still be available because I got it very
recently (Jan 09).

Bee :)

Cerulean

28-07-2009, 11:19

http://www.wicce.com/1890egyptien.html

1 -- Chaos (Le Chaos)

2 -- The Sun (La Lumiere)

3 -- The Plants (Les Plantes)

4 -- The Sky (Le Ciel)

5 -- Man and Animals (L'Homme et les Quadrupedes)

6 -- The Zodiac (Les Astres)

7 -- Birds and Fishes (Les Oiseaux et les Poissons)

8 -- Repose (Repos)

9 -- Justice (La Justice)

10 --Temperance (La Temperance)

11 -- Force (La Force)

12 -- Prudence (La Prudence)

13 -- The High Priest (Le Grand Pretre)

14 -- The Devil (Le Diable)

15 -- The Magician or the Juggler (Le Magicien ou le Bateleur)

16 -- Final Judgment (Le Jugement dernier)

17 -- Death (La Mort)

18 -- The Monk or Hermit (Le Capucin)

19 -- The Ill-Fated Temple (Le Temple Foudroye)

20 -- Wheel of Fortune (La Roue de Fortune)

21 -- The African Despot (Le Despote Africain)

Cerulean

28-07-2009, 12:28

All cards

http://www.tarot.com/tarot/decks/index.php?deckID=9&cardID=0

Now the Lo Scarabeo Jeu des Dames version (Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot) has this listing in the
Little White Book and it's really close (but not exact) to Editions Dusserre keywords in English.
If you also check out the above links, you can let us know if the cards in the Grimaud Edition
with English translations on the keyword cards also helped:

0. 78. Folly

1. Chaos.

2. Light

3. Plants and Birds

4. Heavens

5. Person

6. Stars

7. Birds and Fish

8. Rest

9. Justice

10. Temperance

11. Strength

12. Prudence

13. Marriage

14. Force

15. Magician

16. Judgement

17. Death

18. Hermit

19. Temple
20. Wheel

21. Carriage.

Minors- wands

22. King (wands)- Country Man

23. Queen (wands) - Country Woman

24. Knight (wands)- Departure

25. Knave/Page (wands) -Good Stranger

26. Ten- Treason

27 Nine-Delay

28. Eight-Country Party

29. Seven - Preliminary Talks

30. Six - Servant

31. Five- Gold

32. Four- Society

33. Three - Enterprises

34. Two - Sadness

35. Ace- Fall

Minors - Chalices/Cups

36. King - Blond Man

37. Queen - Blond Woman

38. Knight-Arrival

39. Knave/Page- Fair haired boy

40. Ten - Town

41 Nine- Victory

42. Eight-A blond girl

43. Seven- Thoughts

44. Six-Past

45. Five- Inheritance

46. Four - Troubles

47. Three-Success

48. Two-Love

49. Ace - Table

Minors - Swords

50. King - Legal profession

51. Queen- Widowhood

52. Knight- Military

53. Knave/Page - Lack of Foresight

54.Ten -Tears

55. Nine -Clerical (just defiance)

56. Eight - Critical

57. Seven - Hopes

58. Six - Journey

59. Five-Loss

60. Four - Solitude

61. Three - Removal

62. Two - Friendship/Falsity

63. Ace -Extreme

Minors - Pentacles

64. King (Pentacles) - Brown haired man

65. Queen (Pentacles) - Brown haired woman

66. Knight (Pentacles) - Utility

67. Knave/Page (Pentacles) - Brown haired boy

68. Ten - Home

69. Nine - Effect

70. Eight - Brown-haired girl

71. Seven - Money

72. Six - Present

73. Five - Lover

74. Four - A Gift

75. Three - Noble

76. Two - Trouble

77. Ace - Perfect Contentment

78 (see beginning) (Madness/Folly of the Alchemist)

Hope that helps.

Cerulean

Sylvie Steinbach

28-07-2009, 17:17

Mlle Lenormand started in her teens with this specific deck of 78 cards (lames). I have an
orginal one from Grimaud France from 1900 in Museum quality condition. I also have the book
that goes with reading an Etteilla, all in French of course and dated of 1940. My grand father
was a freemason and it was part of the 'family' collection.

Each card has its key word and its reversed key word. For example:

59-Perte (loss) and reversed Deuil (mourning)

74-Un present (a gift) and reversed Cloture (hedge)

47- Reussite (success) and reversed Expedition (expedition/venture)

27- Retard (delay) and reversed Traverses (crossings)

The wands have freemasons symbolism pictured with nails.

The Coins have astrological symbolism using sun, moon and greek gods such as mercury, apollo
(sun) etc... North and south nodes as well as the part of fortune are indicated. Notice that there
is no Uranus, Neptune and Pluto!

The meanings are very different than in our Tarot the way we know it today. And the reversed
meanings of the Etteilla in most cases have nothing to do with being the opposite of the
straight up meanings. Sometimes it is a nuance such as Loss vs Mourning while sometimes it is
very different like 71- Argent (money) vs Inquietude (worries). The idea of reading the Tarot up
and reversed comes from the Etteilla system. However readers translate the reversed meanings
as the opposite to the upstraights' but the Etteilla system isn't that simple.
The major arcana are also complex. Some like the 18-(the hermit as we know it today) is
'traitre' both up and reversed. It means 'traitor' in English! 20-(the wheel of fortune as we
understand it today) is Fortune (do you need a translation?;-)) and reversed is 'augmentation'
which means 'increase'. 12-(the temperance) is La Prudence which means Wisdom and
reversed it is 'Le Peuple' meaning 'The People'. On that card, notice there is an astrological sign
on the top left side of the picture, it is the mark of the pisces.

Let's complicate a bit more...7-Appui (support) and reversed Protection (you can guess this
meaning?). The Libra sign is noted on the top left of the picture. But notice the top right
inscription: 5.Cre (this is referring to the 7 days of creation in the first testamen!). How do we
know that? Well let's see, take card 6-Nuit (night) reversed Jour (day). Virgo sign noted and the
4. Cre.

Let's continue...2-Eclaircissement (enlightment) vs Feu (fire). Note on the top/left the Taurus
symbol and on the top of the card we read: 2e. Element 1e. Creation (ah now we have it!)
translation: second Element, first creation! Make sure you do translate Eclaircissment into
enlightment it is not clearing up! Are you hanging in there? 3-Propos (Intentions/words) vs Eau
(water). Top/left we have the Gemini astrological sign and on the top of the card: 1.El (first
element) 3e. Cre (third creation).

Ok let's do this one: 4-Depouillement (That is a hard one to translate in one word as it has
several meanings, being bare, analysing and ascetism) vs Air (AIR!). Top/left is Cancer symbol
and on top we have 3e. El (third element) and 2e. Cre (second creation). Are you still doubting?
Well let's do this one then just to confirm things for you...8- Etteilla (no translation here!) vs
Questionnante (female inquirer/consultante). Top/left is Scorpio symbol and on the top/right is
said: 7.repos meaning 7.rest!

So let's summarize and please bare with me:

2-Enlightment Fire (picture of the star again but pay attention to what surrounds it, it is like
sperm. CREATION. the little children on the bottom are holding and about to kiss in front of
some altar (no it is not a fireplace!))second element first creation Taurus
3-Intentions/words Eau first element third creation Gemini

4-Ascetism/analysing (a naked woman-repeating theme doing some alchemy with the mixing of
the content of the jars while in the sky set saturn, mars, mercury, venus, jupiter and moon
astrological symbols! notice the circled star that seems to try to say something and the strange
presence of the butterfly symbolizing rebirth) Air third element second creation Cancer

5-Voyage (Travel) vs Terre (Earth) Earth fourth element sixth creation Leo

(notice other signs inside of the picture, aquarius/scorpio-phoenix being its actual animal and
taurus/leo) Voyage should be understood as beyond worlds (pay attention to the picture of a
serpent going full circle travelling the different zodiac signs and animal symbols while the
woman is standing between two pyramids symbolizing two worlds!)

6-Nuit (night) (note the moon and the sun and two astrological symbols inserted aries and libra
the opposite of each other as venus/mars ying/yang) fourth creation Virgo

7-Appui (support) (picture refers to prehistorical times and the evolution of species, notice the
serpent/snake again!) fifth creation Libra

8-Etteilla (naked woman with an aura energy field!) seven. rest and Scorpio.

Now you are going to ask: what about the 1- card!? Here it is!

1-Etteilla (No naked man here!!! Just the brilliant sun in its whole mighty!) vs Questionnant
(male inquirer, consultant) Aries astrological symbol.

Based on the words written on 1 and 8, those two cards can be used as key cards to represent
the person who is asking for the reading. Some people have question my system of key cards
thinking it was a complete invention but not really...you just need to know the Etteilla's system
to understand others were using that notion way before I was born. Etteilla was one of them!

The wands associate with travel, creativity and communication. The Coins being business, trade
and money. You need to understand that the Etteilla was used to decode the future but also to
open the door for revelations. It was a tool for initiation in secret societies and esoterism. The
original deck has a very thick consistency in its 'lames' (thick pieces of paper) and can't be
shuffled. It does not have flexibility. It is mixed up lying flat on the table (original tarots were in
wood thin plates) and then cards are chosen or ensembled in a specific way to create a spread.

I hope you found my little insertion somewhat interesting.

Blessings!

Bernice

28-07-2009, 18:09

Cerulean and Sylvie,

Thank you so much for posting re. this deck.

Such a lovely surprise to find your posts here today, I've copied them so that I can print them
out. I've sat and shook my head over this deck a number of times. Being mono-lingual is a great
drawback.This will open the cards up to me now.

The full deck translations, all in one place, are really helpful Cerulean. And I'll check out the links,
many thanks. Especially the translations for the Courts and Pips.

Hi Sylvie. It is interesting that the Etteilla card reversed meanings arn't the opposite of the
upright ones. That's something I'm pleased about, I've never been happy about
reversed/opposite meanings which is why I don't usually use reversals. (Now I can).

Unfortunately the LS 'Book of Thoth' cards don't have the astrological or creation markings. But
your post opens up further investigation for me.

I hope you found my little insertion somewhat interesting.

Very interesting Sylvie. I did not know of the freemason connection.

Thank you very much, both of you.

Bee :)

Moonbow

29-07-2009, 04:49

I'm glad to see this thread and conversation continuing, although I'm puzzled as I thought
Bernice wanted the meanings to the Book of Thoth deck not the Grand Etteila. My Grand
Etteilla deck already has the English meanings printed on it (mine is from the 60's), I found the
Element/Creation abbreviations interesting though. I really should study that aspect of the
cards a bit more, so thanks for that piece of information Sylvie.

Bernice

29-07-2009, 05:09

...I thought Bernice wanted the meanings to the Book of Thoth deck

This is true :).

The french text on the Book of Thoth cards and the LWB don't always mean the same thing.
Even with my bare scrap of french, I can see that. No idea why they've done this :confused:

But I'm happy to have any translation of french words, on the off-chance that some will match
up to the text on this deck. More than happy - grateful!

Bee :)

gregory

29-07-2009, 07:24
Let me get this straight (before I exert myself.)

You have the LS book of Thoth Etteilla deck and you want the words on those actual cards
translated ????

Gimme a little while, if that's it. Can do :)

Sylvie Steinbach

29-07-2009, 10:55

If you would like to see scans from that particular deck email me your email address and I will
forward you a sample for your enjoyment!

Sylvie Steinbach

29-07-2009, 11:06

The one I have is very unique as I just browsed around and realized that no picture comes close
to show the one I possess. If other Etteilla owners are interested particularly if you own an
original one from late 1800 or beginning 1900. Mine has the tax stamp on one of its lames and
is still coming from its original box with Grimaud address!

Abrac

29-07-2009, 16:07

I think the reason it was suggested that the Grand Etteilla might be helpful is because some of
the words found on the Book of Thoth Etteilla are also on the Grand Etteilla with English
translations.

I remember trying to translate the Book of Thoth Etteilla myself once upon a time and some of
the words simply can't be found in modern dictionaries or at Babelfish so the Grand Etteilla,
while not a perfect solution, does come in handy to some extent.

Bernice

29-07-2009, 18:47
Oooh! Lot's of responses - thank you people.

Gregory, your offer is gratefully, and gracefully, accepted :) Many thanks.

Hello Sylvie,

Your Grand Etteilla deck sounds really interesting. I'm sending you a pm re. the scans. Thank
you.

Hi abrac,

I think the reason it was suggested that the Grand Etteilla might be helpful is because some of
the words found on the Book of Thoth Etteilla are also on the Grand Etteilla with English
translations.

I remember trying to translate the Book of Thoth Etteilla myself once upon a time and some of
the words simply can't be found in modern dictionaries or at Babelfish so the Grand Etteilla,
while not a perfect solution, does come in handy to some extent.

Yes, I agree with you. The Book of Thoth card-text is as much a mystery as the deck!

Bee :)

Cerulean

30-07-2009, 11:07

WWPCM01612

"Grimaud" (France)

deck "Grand Etteilla" (78 cards)

WWPCM01612/01: edition 1910

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm

This link sometimes goes down, but the WWPC number, I thought was referencing the
"Wonderful World of Playing Cards" and if so, the playing card historians list this edition as
1910. It's exciting to hear of a 1900 version

now!

We might want to start another thread on these exciting sharings of Freemasonry and Etteilla
meanings. My edition Dusserre and LS booklets and perhaps our combined resources might
come up a few new things. Paul Huson's collective Etteilla meanings in Mystical Origins of the
Tarotdo not have the freemasonry subtexts--but the edition Dusserre Book of Thoth Jeu des
Dames instructions mirror the BP Grimaud later issued instructions in one of their 1969-ish
editions....and look really like my Lismon 1890 Book of Thoth French instructions.

(And as an aside, likely the traceability to Papus' Divinatory Tarot meanings .It maybe the later
1920's Knapp Hall Tarot might have had elements of the Papus and Etteilla Free Masonry
minors.)

When we get a chance, we also might want to revisit historic editions of the Etteilla patterns,
from the I, II and III (Jeu des Dames) and the offshoots--for there are Italian, French and Spanish
offshoots of both Jeu des Dames and Jeu de Princesse--I have many of the reproductions, with
two noteable exceptions.

----------------------------------------------------------------

My Lismon Etteilla editions with the 1890 tax stamp was supposedly warehoused for years--
usually sold as a set with the Book of Thoth by Julia Orsini. The House of Grimaud bought the
stock, said the seller, a playing card historian and seller in Germany...
In the thread of the Lismon Etteillas, the 1890 stamp was applied, no matter what the
variations--and there are variations. In appearance, it is more like the early version of the Grand
Etteilla of Grimaud, but the watercolor washes seem hand done on stencil prints.

Kaplan cites the Lismon Etteillas--even with the 1890 tax stamp--as circa 1900. It may be the
conservative will assign a later date to the BP Grimaud versions out there.

I'll check his auction catalog of two years ago to see if he sold any BP Grimaud editions and to
see if they are pictured.

Best,

Cerulean

P.S. Some related threads with an actual Jeu des Dames (trimmed) and other

old Etteilla deck samples

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=110310&highlight=lismon

Cerulean

30-07-2009, 11:12

http://www.tarotpassages.com/mkgtimeline.htm

1789 Publication of the first Etteilla deck. Available as the Grand Etteilla deck from Grimaud
since 1982. The Trumps and all astrological correspondences are as follows:
1 - Etteilla - Le Consultant (Male). Aries. (Papus says this is "special to the Tarot of Etteilla" - I'd
make it the Bateleur (as does Edmond))

2 - Eclaircissement (Enlightenment/Fire). Taurus. (Papus: Sun)

3 - Propos (Discussion/Water). Gemini. (Papus: Moon)

4 - Dépouillement (Loss/Air). Cancer. (Papus: Star)

5 - Voyage (Travel/Earth). Leo. (Papus: World)

6 - Nuit (Night/Day). Virgo. (Papus: Empress - I'd make it the Popess)

7 - Appui (Support/Protection). Libra. (Papus: Emperor)

8 - Etteilla - Le Consultante (Female). Scorpio. (Papus: Popess - I'd make it the Empress)

9 - La Justice (Justice/Jurist). Sagittarius. (Papus: Justice)

10 - La Tempérance (Temperance/Priest). Capricorn. (Papus: Temperance)

11 - La Force (Strength/Monarch). Aquarius. (Papus: Force, i.e., Strength)

12 - La Prudence (Prudence/The Masses). Pisces. (Papus: Hanged Man)

13 - Mariage (Marriage/Union). (Papus: Lovers)

14 - Force Majeure (Absolute Necessity/Absolute Necessity). (Papus: Devil)

15 - Maladie (Illness/Illness). (Papus: Bateleur - I'd make it the Pope - it shows the same person
as performed the Marriage (in bishop's fish-hat) holding a wand over an altar table with ram's
heads on the corners; one of the reversed meanings is "Mage".

16 - Jugement (Judgment/Judgment). (Papus: Judgment)

17 - Mortalité (Death/Nothingness). (Papus: Death)

18 - Traître (Traitor/Traitor). (Papus: Hermit)

19 - Détresse or Misere (Poverty/Prison). (Papus: Tower)

20 - Fortune (Fortune/Raise). (Papus: Wheel of Fortune)

21 - Dissension (Disagreement/Disagreement). (Papus: Chariot)

68 - Ten of Coins = Part of Fortune

69 - Nine of Coins = South Node

70 - Eight of Coins = North Node

71 - Seven of Coins = Saturn

72 - Six of Coins = Jupiter

73 - Five of Coins = Mars

74 - Four of Coins = Moon

75 - Three of Coins = Venus

76 - Two of Coins = Mercury

77 - Ace of Coins = Sun

The crowned one

30-07-2009, 11:18

The one I have is very unique as I just browsed around and realized that no picture comes close
to show the one I possess. If other Etteilla owners are interested particularly if you own an
original one from late 1800 or beginning 1900. Mine has the tax stamp on one of its lames and
is still coming from its original box with Grimaud address!

I have a pre 1900 copy of this deck (earlier then the 1910 deck.) What do your backs look like?

Sylvie Steinbach

30-07-2009, 15:48
Cerulean, Nice Job! I was too lazy to do that ;-) lol

Dear Crowned one, well actually Cerulean inserted a link that shows one that is very closed to
the one I own...mine is more vivid in colors (I have it personally for 35 years and I am amazed
that the graphics have remained in mint condition without fading despite the fact they went
through 2 world wars and a crossing of the Atlantic!) but the pictures are the same artwork and
i do have the same box. The cards are very very thick. So we can say the one I own is close to
the same era from that one showed on the link....Of course the French seal is on the two of
swords, lame 62, which says "Decret du 12 Avril 1890". All cards are without any scratch, cut or
handwritting! The deck is complete with its original two box system. Cards are 65mm large and
118mm tall.

WWPCM01612

"Grimaud" (France)

deck "Grand Etteilla" (78 cards)

WWPCM01612/01: edition 1910

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01612/d01612.htm

However the back is a bit different it has swirling effect and has nothing to do with the back
shown in the picture. I wish I could upload the back for you crowned one so you can
see...Because of my family history I always suspected this one was 1900 (or even earlier). I
placed it 1910 to the latest as of the above sample. The swirling back is very unusual. Those
very rare decks are now considered real sought after antiques that can be sold for hundreds of
dollars!!!

Sylvie Steinbach

30-07-2009, 15:51

Did you get my email???

Moonbow
30-07-2009, 16:26

Cerulean and Sylvie, thanks so much for sharing the link and this extra information. I can see
mine confirmed as the 1969 one, perhaps not rare but its the weight of a brick and I really like
the thickness of the cards. This extra information and Freemasonry connection is great.

Sounds like you have a beautiful deck there Sylvie!

Looking forward to seeing if you can come up with anything from the auction catalogue
Cerulean.

Sylvie Steinbach

30-07-2009, 16:53

When I found that Grand Etteilla at my grand parents', I also found a book. Unfortunately as
much as the deck is in mint condition (and trust me I played with it when I was a kid!) the book
lost its covers front and back, it is not in good shape with very yellow pages. So I am posting to
find if it is the same one that some of you have. I can't upload pictures on that site, which is
very frustrating for me.

So I will just quote pages. Page 185 on mine it is said "premiere methode" le cercle (fig 17).

Page 187, fig 17 shows Le cercle, a full circle using the Grand Etteilla and the methode to read
based on that drawing.

Is there anyone out there who has by chance that same very old book?

the last page has a poem on the bottom that says:

Qui le Destin par trop fouille s'embrouille; Qui le consulte trop bien n'a rien.
I have to say I always found those words humoristic and they are supposely (according to the
book writer) from a contemporary individual to Nostradamus.

My translation which may not be as humoristic and please forgive me as it is not exactly word
by word but I wanted to keep the idea of what it is trying to say!

"Who search too far inside Destiny ends up confused; who consults overly to foresee it sees
nothing.

The book has two parts: one is for regular cartomancy with playing cards! the second part is for
the Grand Etteilla and in that part it does use up and reversed meanings as well as proximities
with other lames.

As a kid I vaguely remember there was a front page but never a cover. The front page had the
printing date, but I can't really remember the exact one. I know it was not after the 1940's.

Sylvie Steinbach

30-07-2009, 17:04

It is an amazing high quality constructed deck! I am still surprised it did not fade and the cards
are strong, rigid and yes very heavy ;-)

Rich colors but not too overboard, detailled and without fading... I show it from time to time to
clients who are into metaphysics because it is an extremely rare deck in our lifetime. I scanned
the pictures and gave a full catalogue to Phoenix in NZ as it is the first deck Mlle Lenormand
used when she was in her teens. I think she tried to overdo Etteilla with her Grand Lenormand
which is constructed with a lot of symbols and each card were very large and heavy... A bit of
competition here!

Of course I noticed the nails right away and the freemasons' connection since I am born into
that lineage. I studied astrology with the Rosicruscians and the symbols on some of the cards
refer to the part of fortune calculation for example. You have the north and south nodes
references which is quite significant because today those elements are part of the karmic
astrology system. I can go on and on about that deck since I have it for so long...

Moonbow

30-07-2009, 17:28

Sylvie, please continue to tell us more, I'm interested in your astrology studies with this deck
too. Sending you a quick PM.

Bernice

30-07-2009, 19:31

Hi Sylvie,

Thank you for the pics.

I'm also interested that there is a Lenormand connection. Most bios' say she used a 52 playing
card deck.

I've been looking at the card titled Fille Brune, the glyphs within the circles look like North
Nodes. I think it's number is 70.

Cerulean, I've just noticed that card 70 is indeed 8 Coins = North Node. Thank you for the link
and the listed info.

This deck seems to have an involved history - great!

Bee :)

coredil

31-07-2009, 00:23
Time to show some scans in order to llustrate this thread ;)

These are scans from 5 decks of my collection.

They are quite old.

I do not give too much details (lazy today ;))

First row

1. Etteilla type I with tax stamp and whirled back

2. Etteilla type I without tax stamp with curled back

3. Etteilla Type II (Lismon)

Second row

4. Etteilla Type III

5. Etteilla "Jeu de la princesse tarot" published by Watilliaux

Deck 1 & 2

Deck 2 has not such clear line drawings as deck 1.

They both have this typical very thick cardstock that Grimaud used at this time

(See also the Marteau Grimaud thread for such cardbacks:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=57491)

I guess Sylvie has a similar deck.

Deck 1 came with the original two pieces slipcase dark red box as shown on Trionfi.

Deck 3
is one of the many existing variations of the Lismon deck!

See also this thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=84223&page=3&pp=10

Deck 4

As Cerulean mentioned this paticular trimmed version of the deck has been discussed in this
thread:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=110310

There was shortly an auction on ebay with an original copy of this deck and it was very
interesting to that some images were very different!

There must be several original editions of this deck.

Deck 5 must be quite old!

Dusserre made a reproduction of a colored version of this deck.

(BTW I dont know if the coloring bei Dusserre is original and if there was a colored version of
this deck)

Best regards

BTW I have a facsimile copy of the "Premier cahier" and "Second cahier" of Etteilla original book:

"Manière de se recréer avec le jeu de cartes nommées Tarots"

It is so fastidious and difficult to read because Etteilla writes with a very confusing and heavy
style!

It is indeed much easier to simply read the meanings written on the cards :)

Bernice

31-07-2009, 02:17
Great links Coredil!

I knew there were several versions of this deck, but had no idea just how many. It seems that
they've been altered/re-worked a number of times. And that might explain why this LS version
that I have (Book of Thoth) has the images and titles mixed up.

Bee :)

Sylvie Steinbach

31-07-2009, 04:01

You are right! I do own the first one with the swirling back and the stamp. And it is finally
illustrated on this thread ;-) No more frustration....

Moonbow

02-08-2009, 04:07

I would be very interested to hear from any current Freemasons as to what they make of the
symbolism on the Batons (nails) cards. And any other cards for that matter.

And also hear of anyone's experiences of reading with this deck. I have tried myself and found it
to read similar to the Lenormand, although I rely on the English keywords and the image, and
apparently there is a deeper meaning. Is anyone here more familiar with occult symbols, who is
willing to share what these mean?

rif

02-08-2009, 04:33

Moonbow*, if I may ask, in what respect was it similar to a Lenormand reading?

I'd like to piggyback on this topic and ask which particular edition of an Etteilla deck anyone
would recommend for purchase today, for someone who could use English keywords? :)
I also wonder if Etteilla and his contemporaries always relied on the keywords? One of the
things that always seemed strange to me about the Etteilla style decks were the number of
varied meanings, even on a single card (such as when the reversed keyword has no relation to
the upright meaning). It seems impossible to memorize. But if the keywords are always
intended to be on the deck, then it doesn't seem so challenging.

Bernice

02-08-2009, 05:38

Cerulean: post #8

All cards

http://www.tarot.com/tarot/decks/in...ckID=9&cardID=0

Now the Lo Scarabeo Jeu des Dames version (Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot) has this listing in the
Little White Book and it's really close (but not exact) to Editions Dusserre keywords in English.

If you also check out the above links, you can let us know if the cards in the Grimaud Edition
with English translations on the keyword cards also helped:.. <78 cards listed>...

Hello Cerulean,

Thank you for taking time to list all the 78 card names.

I followed your link, and partway through matching the french/english text on the cards I just
gave up.....

This LS version really isn't the same; some cards are similar, some cards arn't there, some cards
have different (french) text, some LS cards have the image upsidedown when compared to the
link-cards, some LS cards don't have the same reversed text - or it's the same as the upright
link-card text.

It's a real mix-up. Having to copy each link-card, manipulate for the upsidedown text etc. it
finally did my head in.

I'd just be happy to have a translation of the french divinatory meanings on LS version deck. Not
the card name because I have that now.

The info. on the other version decks is very interesting to me, but I've got no further with this LS
version.

Bee :)

Moonbow

02-08-2009, 07:32

Hi rif

The similarity between the Etteilla and Lenormand in respect of reading, at least for me, is that
they both have more of a fortune telling feel to them. For example, the use of Male and Female
querent. Also, the keywords for the upright and reversed card meanings are more fortune
telling based, like 'betrayal, delay, expectation, the house, difficult situation'. The temptation is
to read the card as per the keyword if the deck is unfamiliar and unlike a Marseilles these pips
have nothing in the image (that I know of) to assist with the reading. The pip cards are split into
two areas of blue at the top and yellow at the bottom, with just the suit element shown. The
yellow section does show other obscure symbols which are difficult to relate to the rest of the
card, and its these that I am asking about.

Sylvie Steinbach

03-08-2009, 05:49
I doubt we will get anyone, who is really a Freemason to answer as they have sworn secrecy
regarding their esoteric knowledge. Unless it is someone who 'used to' be one or is a
metaphysician/historian specifically on this secret society.

Etteilla invented or possibly made more public the system of key cards. Mlle Lenormand had
the Etteilla tarot when she was in her teens. The unsolved mystery to this day is that we do not
know how she had such extensive knowledge of its use despite being raised in a covent most of
her childhood.

The Etteilla system is intricate as the meanings are doubled (up and reversed) and the meanings
change depending on the proximity of other cards (sounds familiar?). I studied it when I was in
my teens and experiment with those cards for a little while. If you read cards, you will be
disappointed. Its accuracy is minimal at best. If you use it to get a general idea of its message
(using your intuitive mind), you may improve your results. But still...

The book I have, explains different ways to use the deck. I have to say those techniques are as
complexed as the panoramic spread for the 36 Lenormand cards. Does it mean they pay out?
Not so sure...It is like doing crosswords. Some people love that hobby so much they must do
their crosspuzzles every single day because they say, it keeps their mind sharp. I think those
techniques work the same way. Figure out what the symbols are connected with, why are they
here will keep your mind working 24hs a day! lol ;-)

But the Etteilla falls short as a predictive tool to foresee the future in detailled manners. That
may be the reason why, Mlle Lenormand (who also started with palm readings during the same
period with the Etteilla -Gypsy connection, anyone?) moved on into playing cards (you get more
specifics with it) and eventually created her own decks (like the Grand Lenormand!).

The reason I joked about the 'competition' aspect between Etteilla and Lenormand is for their
attempt to make the more complicated deck on the planet. The Grand Lenormand is big, large
and contains multiple references (geomancy (another secret society favorite hobby, ref
Freemasons), fixed stars/constellations, flowers symbols, greek mythology as in the Etteilla
Tarot and alphabetical letters). Some of the techniques used in the Grand Lenormand book are
similar variations to the book I have on the Etteilla!!!

Of course I did studied the Grand Lenormand as well (easy transition from the Etteilla). I got the
same poor results that with the Etteilla. However they are great puzzling decks for conversation
because of their secret society symbols, karmic astrology references for example. I believe in
some ways the decks were used to cast or determine some particular days to do certain things
and/or to carry messages at the time the political climat was hostile (French revolution and
post revolutionary unstability)....

Freemasons were not advertising themselves openly but had accessories to recognize each
other and would pass on information coded about meetings and others...Let's not forget that
Napoleon himself (despite his relationship with Lenormand via Josephine) outlaw fortune
telling as a business (and it is still outlaw in the civil code of France today). That explains why
Germany saw an explosion of Lenormand and fortune telling systems/tools because it
welcomes metaphysics). So at one point, predicting the future in France was sending you in jail
(as Lenormand experienced a few times herself) and it is a practice that was as much
underground that being a freemason.

So my personal belief is that the reason the Etteilla fell off the popularity table over a period of
time was because it was not that good as a predictive tool (same goes for the Grand Lenormand
by the way). They have both remain conversation pieces and esoteric studies...for our
enjoyment (see this thread!). The 36 Lenormand (called small vs grand) proved themselves to
be more than adequate to do that job as well as simple playing cards (as favored by Lenormand
herself).

The Tarot as we know it today has very little in common with the Etteilla and it is the most
popular tool for divination. Even though it is a tough deck to master (if it is ever mastered?), it is
not as complex to use as the Etteilla but still enough to satisfy the crosswords players. ;-)

The small Lenormand was the second most popular deck for divination except in English
speaking countries who could not access to the prolific litterature available in German and
French languages. So it is reasonable to say that the reason it was so popular besides its
beautiful artwork was because it was providing results for a lot of fortune tellers. At the end of
the day, Mlle Lenormand is renowned for that small deck. Not really for the Grand one! Most
psychics do not know what an Etteilla looks like or how different it is from a Tarot. The same
goes for where the idea of reading reversed tarot cards comes from (answer: Etteilla system) or
the use of keycards to represent a querent (answer: Etteilla system again!).

I enjoyed posting on this thread (despite this very long posting, sorry!) because it gave me an
opportunity to explain the why and how the Etteilla and the Lenormand consequently are
linked. And how my method described in my book is not just a Sylvie's crazy mind invention ;-)
but an ancient technique put forth into a Tarot deck called an Etteilla, an amazing piece of
esoterism knowledge!

Blessings...

Sylvie Steinbach

Cerulean

03-08-2009, 05:57

This is maybe too involved, but here's some ideas:

First I'd write down the upright card words on

Thieren's traditional meanings listed on sacred texts has keywords--at least in my test of three
minors, the Ace-Two-Three of Wands--that seem to be very similar within the first suggested
keywords that give English alternatives. One can go through a minor suit, having the cards in
order on a table or surface next to your keyboard, and page through the link by doing previous
or next...and after you are satisfied the keywords are similar enough, write down.

For instance:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Ace of Wands (#35)

Thierens link: Ace of Wands

TRADITION: Birth, source, principle, beginning, origin, cause, reason, creation, invention. Some
say also: family, but this is probably to be taken as 'family-descent,' or parentage or origin of
the family, which is a different idea. Reversed: Fall, perdition, decadence, decline, ruin, etc.

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/gbt/gbt31.htm

Keyword on Grand Oracle Jeu des Dames or LS Book of Thoth Etteilla Tarot

Ace of Wands: Chute (Upright- Droit) - Fall/descent (google search)

Reversed: Naissance - Birth/origin (google search)

Two book sources:

Bill Butler Dictionary of the Tarot:

Waite: Creation...birth...family...fall...decadence

Paul Huson Mystical Origins of the Tarot:

Etteilla (Ace of Wands): Birth, commencement, nativity, origin, creation: Reversed: Downfall,
cascade, decadence...
So if I want a good collection of collective meanings and want to do the upright interpretations
quickly in a list, I'd page through Thierens for each minor, start my list...and then one could go
through Waite's Key to the Tarot through Sacred Texts for comparisons if that helps.

But to be honest, you are right, it's food for thought with every card, because our twenty-first
centuries sensibilities would say, "Hey, shouldn't birth be the best thing and an upright meaning
instead of the reverse? Why is descent or fall the first meaning? Why is Etteilla's meaning so
upside down to my thinking and what I am reading?"

In this case, one could be confused when writing this up, but I want to soak up Theiren's
ideas...given 18th century sensibilities which might be that the 'descent of the family' might a
good thing...or if you are a French enlightenment sort, perhaps the ideas of an old structure
falling and making way for a new enterprise isn't a bad thing...or perhaps the querent falling
into a new enterprise or new situation...or a birth...hmm...

At least it helps give you a comparative context.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Two of Wands (#34)

The second sample...Two of Wands in the deck (Book of Thoth/Oracle Jeu des Dames) upright
meaning of Chagrin and Thierens meaning of melancholy seems to fit:

TRADITION: Melancholy, sadness, surprise, astonishment, consternation, terror, fear,

enchantment, trouble, but also on the other hand riches, fortune and magnificence.

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/gbt/gbt32.htm

Reversed on the card is surprise, which is also included above.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

3. Three of Wands (#33)

Keyword: Enterprises (Upright-Droit)

Reversed: Peines A leur fin ( peine meaning sorrow, sadness, trouble, effort, penalty)

Theirens:

TRADITION: Enterprise, effort, essay, trade, commerce, discovery, usurpation, daring, temerity
and also imprudence, interruption, cessation and 'the end of troubles,' discontinuative.

THEORY: The rather contradictory descriptions of this card's significance are well explained by
its zodiacal position: Air on the Third house, which doubles the influence of 'air' and of the
mercurial vibrations and effects. This card has the accent of the suit of wands. It must
consequently denote: communication, reflection and all that comes from these. This needs
little explanation.

CONCLUSION: Communication, instruction, reflexion, message, writing, postage and letters,

superficial knowledge,

http://sacred-texts.com/tarot/gbt/gbt32.htm

So enterprises is noted above and end to penalty or sorrow as well.

I hope this helps a little. Paul Huson's Mystical Origins of the Tarot has the greatest assortment
of collective meanings in text to help compare, but doesn't pick up on the Freemasonry
commentary presented by the kind contributors here.

If you don't feel the need to spend the money for Paul Huson's text when you can check
through Thieren's text online at sacred text as well get black and white drawings of PCS's
pictures on the pages you scroll through--maybe that will be helpful?

Regards,

Cerulean

Bernice says:

I'd just be happy to have a translation of the french divinatory meanings on LS version deck. Not
the card name because I have that now.

The info. on the other version decks is very interesting to me, but I've got no further with this LS
version.

Bee :)[/QUOTE]

rif

03-08-2009, 06:14

My goodness, that lengthy post from Ms. Steinbach has answered my Etteilla questions quite
well!

Etteilla invented or possibly made more public the system of key cards.
Was this the person card, like the "Etteilla" card, or did he also use key cards that varied
according to the question asked?

The Etteilla system is intricate as the meanings are doubled (up and reversed) and the meanings
change depending on the proximity of other cards (sounds familiar?).

Yes, it does. :)

I studied it when I was in my teens and experiment with those cards for a little while. If you
read cards, you will be disappointed. Its accuracy is minimal at best.

Really? That is disappointing. Still, if it provided methods that have given value for other areas
of cartomancy....

The book I have, explains different ways to use the deck. I have to say those techniques are as
complexed as the panoramic spread for the 36 Lenormand cards. Does it mean they pay out?
Not so sure...It is like doing crosswords. Some people love that hobby so much they must do
their crosspuzzles every single day because they say, it keeps their mind sharp. I think those
techniques work the same way.

I don't do crosswords, but I have an analytical mind and tend to enjoy working with "systems"
in my cards. :D

But the Etteilla falls short as a predictive tool to foresee the future in detailled manners. That
may be the reason why, Mlle Lenormand (who also started with palm readings during the same
period with the Etteilla -Gypsy connection, anyone?) moved on into playing cards (you get more
specifics with it) and eventually created her own decks (like the Grand Lenormand!).

Myself, I've found some really good and detailed results from playing cards. It's really helped
my approach to reading cards in general. And this is one of the reasons for my interest in
Etteilla, to learn more about his contributions to cartomancy. Beyond the meanings that carried
over the to Golden Dawn tarots.
The reason I joked about the 'competition' aspect between Etteilla and Lenormand is for their
attempt to make the more complicated deck on the planet. The Grand Lenormand is big, large
and contains multiple references ... Some of the techniques used in the Grand Lenormand book
are similar variations to the book I have on the Etteilla!!!

I recently got this Grand Jeu. It's a very nice looking deck. I don't know all the mythology or
symbolism; I have to refer to material about the cards when I use it. I've only worked with it a
little bit. So far I've gotten some nice but very generalized, advice-type answers from it. I used
to dabble with geomancy, and its something I want to work with again. I just need more time in
the day!

Let's not forget that Napoleon himself (despite his relationship with Lenormand via Josephine)
outlaw fortune telling as a business (and it is still outlaw in the civil code of France today). That
explains why Germany saw an explosion of Lenormand and fortune telling systems/tools
because it welcomes metaphysics). So at one point, predicting the future in France was sending
you in jail (as Lenormand experienced a few times herself) and it is a practice that was as much
underground that being a freemason.

I've always wondered why the Germans seemed to have so much more readily available (in
English) Lenormand material and information.

The Tarot as we know it today has very little in common with the Etteilla and it is the most
popular tool for divination. Even though it is a tough deck to master (if it is ever mastered?), it is
not as complex to use as the Etteilla but still enough to satisfy the crosswords players. ;-)

Heh. I favor a Golden Dawn approach to my tarot; and the Etteilla has always seemed an
impenetrable mystery and historical curiosity to me. But I'm still intrigued! Sometimes I like to
read a good mystery. :)

I enjoyed posting on this thread (despite this very long posting, sorry!) because it gave me an
opportunity to explain the why and how the Etteilla and the Lenormand consequently are
linked. And how my method described in my book is not just a Sylvie's crazy mind invention ;-)
but an ancient technique put forth into a Tarot deck called an Etteilla, an amazing piece of
esoterism knowledge!
Thanks, I had been wondering, and I certainly enjoyed reading your informative post.

Cerulean

03-08-2009, 06:31

Cerulean says

Ah, that's why I don't do crossword puzzles anymore--I have the Grand Ettella as my "NY Times"
of the past...I hope my own commentary above and the Theirens meanings online is helpful to
others as a comparison.

After reading the above, I can see if Bernice or others would not want to go through the trouble
to find the meanings translated--because that really might only the start to how to read with
this deck.

The very few times I did these spreads with the Julia Orsini "Book of Thoth" instructions
translated in my Editions Dusserre or my BP Grimaud English instructions for the Grand Etteilla,
the querents did know it was an experiment...and they really had to search their minds almost
too much to try to 'match' the period scenario suggested--if I used the straight meanings from
the translated Book of Thoth. But I'm still really working on my reading skills...and it's likely it
was my weakness in updating the meanings on the fly.

The updated meanings beyond the Grand Etteilla, in more modern tarot terms made more
sense to me if I take the idea it helps people identify past patterns or situations that can make
them mindful of their future choices....and if I do a comparative reading with the same cards
pulled using a modern tarot card/meaning---then the readings made more sense to us all!

But it was tough just working from outdated 'scenarios' that formed when I was checking
through my "Book of Thoth" translations from Julia Orsini--the ones from Editions Dusserre and
also the BP Grimaud decks--- and coming up with a reading "of a fair lad with a dark-haired wife
spurning the advances of a bum and counting himself lucky that he'd run into a 'one-eyed'
person mentally or physically to win a considerable sum..."...they almost read to me as period
stories which might be creative and fun, but not quite the allegories of high truths.
Anyway, really enjoyed looking through the information here and soaking it in.

Best regards,

Cerulean

-------------------------------------------------------------------

My above commentary...just taking off from the thought of Ms. Steinbach:

the Etteilla and (tarot)it is the most popular tool for divination. Even though it is a tough deck to
master (if it is ever mastered?), it is not as complex to use as the Etteilla but still enough to
satisfy the crosswords players. ;-)

Sylvie Steinbach

03-08-2009, 06:55

This thread is doing a public service for the Etteilla since it does not have any book support in
English per say. Even though my crossword puzzle days are long gone, I really appreciate those
good posts on this very obscure deck. Thank you to all contributors! It was an opportunity to
bring back from its box, a longtime friend ;-)

rif

03-08-2009, 07:23

Hi all,

What about the Petit Etteilla? How does it fit into this tradition? I know it's a shorter deck -- 36
cards, like piquet and lenormand? -- and has more keywords for each card. But not much else.
I thought I read somewhere that the Petit was a favorite of Mlle. Lenormand, but I don't really
know. When did Etteilla abbreviate his deck?

Cerulean

03-08-2009, 07:45

http://www.villarevak.org/bio/etteilla_1.html

Hope that helps

According to the bio, he started with the shortened French gaming pack and assigned
divinatory meanings.

I was intrigued that it was suggested he might have learned meanings or cartomancy from 'an
Italian'. Then after the Compte de Geblin writings published, then it seems tarot came to
Etteilla's attention...or at least within his claims!

Regards

Cerulean

Bernice

03-08-2009, 07:47

Thank you for the freemasonary info. Sylvie.

rif,

Petit Etteilla: 32 cards + 1 consultant card

http://www.playingcardsales.co.uk/cards/frameitem.asp?catref=11936

All in french.

Bee :)

Bernice

03-08-2009, 07:51

Cerulean,

Thank you for your posts, I would have another go at your second suggestion, but someone
here has kindly offered to translate the the french divinatory text - direct from The Book of
Thoth cards. A *very* kind someone....:love:

Bee :)

rif

03-08-2009, 08:00

Cerulean, thanks for the link. I haven't been by Villa Revak in a while, I should have known he'd
have the dirt! :D I like the fact that the deck has the keywords plus the reminder of combos like
"4 Kings." Handy! I haven't been very good about memorizing those for tarot or playing cards,
although both factor into the reading methods I use.

Bee, thank you as well. 32 cards... I was close. :)

Cerulean

03-08-2009, 12:56

I checked and found that the links of the images and the Lo Scarabeo and Dal Negro version of
the deck are still available.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=112175&highlight=Grand+Etteilla

Unfortunately the Spanish Tarocco Egiziano version with the larger cards and English booklet by
U.S. Games is hard to find--there is still a version available at R. Somerville with a non-English
booklet. The advantage of this version is you can see the playing card or other sample
symbology associated with the deck.

The English divinatory meanings as far as I can see seem similar to the Thierens meanings, a link
I posted earlier.

Best wishes.

Cerulean

Moonbow

04-08-2009, 05:19

I would still like to know how this Freemasonry connection came about, how come there is
connection when we all know about how secret they are about their knowledge? Why put
symbols on a deck which only a Freemason will understand? Was Etteilla a Freemason?

Bernice

04-08-2009, 07:21

The only freemasonary in connection with this deck that I can find is Antoine Court de Gébelin,
a Swiss clergyman and Freemason.

And this, which seems to be (french?) translated text. Not an internet translation via
google/yahoo etc.
It appears at the Age of Enlightenment during the time pre-revolutionist with the Etteilla
freemason for the set of 32 charts small Etteilla or '' Art to draw the charts '' 1753 published in
1791 and reached its apogee with Sybille from the Revolution and the Empire, Adelaïde
Lenormand for pack of 52 cards - 1843:....

http://www.speedylook.com/Cartomancy.html

And the only references to what Etteilla included in his deck, are "astrological attributions and
egyptian motifs". Although according to......

Christine Payne-Towler offers the following observation on a change in the major arcana of a
popular tarot deck:

Etteilla was drawing from a Hermetic book, The Poimandres, a Greek treatise on the creation of
the world and the fall of humanity into Eros. Essentially it's a Greek version of the Genesis story,
but with differing names and an altered ordering of events.

http://carrietomko.blogspot.com/2006_01_22_archive.html

Still cannot discover if the batons are supposed to be some other objects.

Bee :)

Cerulean

04-08-2009, 10:11

I would still like to know how this Freemasonry connection came about, how come there is
connection when we all know about how secret they are about their knowledge? Why put
symbols on a deck which only a Freemason will understand? Was Etteilla a Freemason?
Hello Moonbow...

I'm taking segments of Mary Greer's Timeline of the Divinatory Tarot and in a related thread,
going to start inserting texts and samples of Etteilla Tarots...just Etteilla Tarots....the
Freemasonry connecton according to Decker and Dummett is 1826, as noted in Mary Greer's
timeline of the divinatory tarot:

1826 Parisian publisher Pierre Mongie republishes Etteilla’s original deck but with Freemasonic
sounding titles on the cards. (now Grimaud’s Grand Etteilla Tarot).

INSERTION FROM DECKER and DUMMETT (from Cerulean):

This version was printed from the original copper plates, which had been altered to erase the
corner symbols (but not the numbers of the cards) and add to most of the trumps, court cards
and Aces new legends in cursive script, inside the frames of the pictorial designs, thus
conferring on them names with a Biblical or Masonic flavo, such as "Hiram's Masonry" (card 2),
"Solomon" (card 9), "Rehoboam (card 21) and 'the Cup of Balthasar" card 49, the Ace of
Cups)...The label goes on to advertise a book...The book...Almost the whole section of the book
devoted to the Egyptian Tarots is reprinted in an unattributed pamphlet entitled Grand Etteilla
issued by Grimaud with the version of Grand Etteilla I they have been producing for many
years...

End Insertion

The entire "Etteilla" timeline reference will be in a linked thread...just keeping that handy and
separate perhaps for future use...

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=122602
Cerulean

Sylvie Steinbach

04-08-2009, 17:48

A french collector is selling a Grand etteilla from the 1900's right now...

You need to go on ebay.fr and post Etteilla as a key word for recherche. You will see it. Auction
ends in 8 days. Starting price 200 Euro!!!! do ship to U.S.A. and other countries for extra costs.

According to his page, it is a rare deck put on the market between 1890 and 1894. It is not in
the best of shape according to the abundant pictures on the page and I am surprise by some
folding crisps (as mine cannot be bent!). Anyway it has the seal as shown on the 2 of swords...

He also has 3 more cartomancy decks from the same era, all with many pictures. One is a grand
Lenormand! You will recognize the two box system so typical of that period. The deck carries
the seal as well. In quite good condition! With its original book! Starting bid 400 Euro!!!

Then we have an original 'petit cartomancien' (unbelievable, you don't see those originals that
often, it is worth for you guys to have a look!) with the two box system and the seal. Fantastic
find this one. Would love to have my hands on those as you have to go to some metaphysician
attic to find them. Starting bid is also 400 Euros...

PS: No I don't know this guy and he is not a friend of mine, I am not promoting his items...I am
just exciting to have found those antiques and see that he has posted so many pictures of them
so that if you love those old decks you can at least look at them! ;-) it is ok to 'look'.

Bernice

04-08-2009, 18:17

Oooh! Thank you Sylvie. Is this the 1890 Etteilla?

http://cgi.ebay.fr/GRIMAUD-TAROT-1890-ETTEILLA-CARTOMANCIE-DIVINATOIRE-
BE_W0QQitemZ360176495339QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFR_Jeux
_JouetsAnciens_JouetsAnciens?hash=item53dc312aeb&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Scroll down for pics.

Yes Sylvie, I can afford to look :)

Bee :)

Sylvie Steinbach

05-08-2009, 04:46

Yes! Did you look at the other 3 he is also putting on auction? Scroll all the way down to see the
3 other items and click on the picture. You will be redirected to the right page. I did not put the
link because I did not know if it was ok to do so as it is some form of advertising for ebay. ;-)

The other one is the Grand Lenormand and for those who don't know why I was make the joke
on the competition, you can now 'see' why. lol

Sylvie

Bernice

05-08-2009, 05:34

40,00 EUR for a booklet!

Bee :bugeyed:

Sylvie Steinbach

06-08-2009, 17:06
Yes! Can you believe it! Tarot cards can become a good investment over few decades...Wonder
what an old Lenormand would worth like in a hundred years?!

Sylvie Steinbach

06-08-2009, 18:04

I am sorry for the lack of response regarding the freemasons and the Grand Etteilla I have and
the symbols/references attached to it. I just did not have time to organize a complete answer.
However I can refer you to this link from By Christine Payne-Towler

February, 2007 (I agree with a lot of what she is saying and learned about those info from my
own freemason family). It is a great reference source:

http://www.tarotarkletters.com/2007/02/masonic_martini.html

And to what the paragraph says:

{In Etteilla's case, it is easy enough to note the Masonry-inflected titles and the planetary
references on the faces of Etteilla's pip cards, and several commentators have done so. What is
harder is to connect the dots and comprehend the meaning of these details, the references
they are making, and the significance of those references in the larger milieu of his times. For
example, isn't it clearer now why the Hermit card would be given the titles "Betrayal" and
"Falsehood", with divinatory text including such admonitions as "a trap is being laid for you"
and "you triumph over a slanderous denunciation"? Knowing more of Etteilla's history helps us
to see why he made the end-notes of his Tower card say "Poverty" and "Prison", still too often
the choices available to a magus in his time. Realizing that he moved in a Lodge context helps to
explain the Templar logo on t he crypt of his Death card, as well as the arrangements of nails at
the bottom the numbered cards in the Wands suit. The Planets on his Coin cards, as well as the
references to Alchemy on both pips and Trumps, cement the obvious conclusion that Etteilla
was straddling the underground and above-ground markets while he taught occultist Tarot
usage to the masses. }

For your information, the nails are referring to the nails in the passion of Christ who was said to
be a 33 degree freemasons. I have an old cross of 1700 from the spanish era that has below the
casted Christ the skeleton head with the crossed bones. It is a typical freemason symbol of high
order!

The geometric figures formed on the cards are part of an alphabet and for example on one of
those there is the letter (symbol) TAU. So it is to address the 'nails' point i was making a while
back.

gregory

06-08-2009, 19:46

Yes! Can you believe it! Tarot cards can become a good investment over few decades...Wonder
what an old Lenormand would worth like in a hundred years?!

You don't have to wait that long..... I have a couple which.....

Bernice

06-08-2009, 21:03

Thank you Sylvie for your explanation about freemasonary and the (grand) Etteilla.

Sylvie: For your information, the nails are referring to the nails in the passion of Christ who was
said to be a 33 degree freemason. I have an old cross of 1700 from the spanish era that has
below the casted Christ the skeleton head with the crossed bones. It is a typical freemason
symbol of high order!

The geometric figures formed on the cards are part of an alphabet and for example on one of
those there is the letter (symbol) TAU. So it is to address the 'nails' point i was making a while
back.

I've never heard before that Christ became a freemason, but the Hebrew TAU/Nail emblems on
the baton suit do point to a possible connection.

From the online sources re. the number of versions of the Etteilla cards, I believe there was one
which had noticeable masonic glyphs. I'm not sure which version it was though.

Bee :)

gregory
08-08-2009, 02:40

And (finally) in response to Bee's ORIGINAL question: the translations of the text on HER cards...

Bernice

08-08-2009, 04:23

Oh! Gregory you're an angel :angel: !

AT LAST:

The LS Book of Thoth tarot deck:

These are the actual words on the actual cards, translated from the French by Gregory Gabriel,
and furthermore complied into a PDF ! (:love:)

This is 234 translated words/phrases !!!

Many, many thanks Greggers.

Bee :) (Now I can attempt to actually try a reading with them).

Moonbow

08-08-2009, 04:30

Yes nice job Gregory. I'm just comparing them to Cerulean's list in post 8 and there are
similarities, this is a great addition to the threads about the Etteilla.

gregory

08-08-2009, 04:35

I just couldn't believe no-one else here had enough French..... :bugeyed: and as there were so
obviously differences....
Enjoy :)

PS this machine has no attached printer; pdf is my print default... no sweat !

Le Fanu

08-08-2009, 07:27

Oh! Gregory you're an angel :angel: !

Indeed... Now I too can think about reading them too...

Cerulean

10-08-2009, 07:02

Thanks!

In comparison, will be posting the keywords and meanings listed in the circa 1850 Julia Orsini
book that came with the Etteilla II Lismon (1880-1890).

You may find similarities in certain words and from there, meanings/descriptions might be
helpful

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=122670

By the way, in typing/transcribing/translating, I notice there were some subtle language that I
had missed initially in the French text for this card in the Julia Orsini circa 1850 booklet. For
instance, in Card 9, King Solomon is clearly named and as a Biblical reference for the card, it's in
as early as the text for the Etteilla II. I believe there is a card also named "Mopses" and the
attribution is noted --- I believe-- in Dummett and Decker. Whether that is a Freemasony
meaning/attribution--I've not looked it up yet. So it seems I can easily have missed the
meanings, not reading the Julia Orsini in French booklet closely until now when doing this
project.

Best regards,

Cerulean

Golden Moon

09-09-2009, 06:50

I'm glad this thread was started :) I, myself, have a book titled "El Supremo Arte de Echar Las
Cartas" (The suprem art of reading the cards) by Dr. Moorne. Unfortunatlly, this book is in
Spanish(as you can see by the title that it has ;) and is only available in Mexico & Spain (and
other latin american countries). The book is made for a particular Mexican version of the French
Tarot Cards Grand Jeu de l'Oracle des Dames.The Mexican version is called Tarot Egipcios
(Egyptian Tarot)

http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/e-decks/egipciosmexicancards.gif

The book gives explination about the cards and also combinations when combine and
associated with other cards. Apart from being writen for the Tarot Egipcios (Egyptian Tarot), It
also inclueds 5 pages of the origin of tarot cards, how to envoc how to use Poker Cards, as well
as the Baraja Española. It also gives cartomancy spreads, talks about the origin of Poker Cards
and Spanish Playing Cards and also briefly about Mlle. LeNormand. It s a book worth getting for
an Spanish speaker. but I would love to see an English version of this book :(.

Bernice

09-09-2009, 07:12

"......but I would love to see an English version of this book."

So would we Golden Moon! (I wonder if the publishers realise that an english version of the
book would sell......?).
Thank you for that information :)

Bee.

Golden Moon

10-09-2009, 01:10

[i]

... (I wonder if the publishers realise that an english version of the book would sell......?).

Thank you for that information :)

Bee.

I'm sure it would, It's something like a hybird of Tarot & Orace cards. Something new.

Le Fanu

11-09-2009, 03:42

By the way... I sat down with my Book of Thoth LoS Etteilla deck last night and the LWB for
Dame Fortune's Wheel and the meanings they give - upright and reversed - match up with what
is written on the Etteilla cards in French. And they are slightly elaborated too. I found it quite a
surprising resource! It's much better for understanding the cards than the LWB that comes with
the actual Book of Thoth deck!

Bernice

11-09-2009, 03:49

Oh my! I never thought to do that, and I also have both decks. Thanks Le Fanu :)
Bee.

Le Fanu

11-09-2009, 05:41

Oh my! I never thought to do that, and I also have both decks. Thanks Le Fanu :)

Bee.

I tried on the off-chance, thinking "well if Dame Fortune's Wheel really is based on Etteilla, let's
see it put its money where its mouth is!"

It doesn't really work with the Majors because DFWheel uses Marseilles images, i.e there is no
Chaos or Birds. I use that vilarek(?) site for the Majors and DFWheel LWB for all the minors and
courts cards.

My French is weak, though I do speak another latin language fluently so I can piece things
together and I thought the meanings for the Minors were good. The first word is always the
same word which is on the Etteilla card (upright and reversed) plus there are other, additional
words to give a wider sense.

Bernice

11-09-2009, 06:17

I've got my pdf (translations from gregory) and the Dame Fortunes Wheel out ready for later on,
and in the quiet wee hours, I'll compare. Then I'll have a more detailed handle on the
minors........YAY!

Cheers Le Fanu.

Bee :)

Cerulean
26-03-2011, 10:22

The circa 1900 to 1910 Grimaud Etteilla link and the booklet samples match my old Grimaud
Etteilla, but the beautiful illustrations and the manual that I have from the House of Grimaud
varies with each edition.

I have a two likely 1900 to 1910 Grimauds...one has box and book, one just has cards.

My booklet matches the scans in the above link.

There is an undated Editions Duserre reroduction and I have been to overwhelmed with
variations of booklets to tell you where it came from even if it says Book od Thoth.

I have a Grimaud deck circa 1970s and box and booklet differ from 1910. Everything on the
cards was bleached or enhanced. The text is different, still interesting.

I have a France Cartes circa 2000 wiith coloring differences anda pretty irritating summary of
meanings that....well, if you looked at Papus Divinatory Tarot translated, the Lismon Etteilla
Julia Orsini booklet, and Editions Dusserre booklet that came with theirJ eu des Dames-there is
much missing in my opinion in what Frances Cartes summarized.

manandcards

07-10-2014, 06:58

And (finally) in response to Bee's ORIGINAL question: the translations of the text on HER cards...

I just picked up the LS deck at the weekend and this was a lovely surprise - thank you so much
for doing it.

Hecatere

25-11-2014, 09:11
Hi Bernice,

If I have understood you correctly, you want a text or a website where you can learn the
meanings of that deck ...

If so, there is a book called "The supreme art of casting letters", of Dr. Moorne. Unfortunately I
found only in Spanish, but I think it is one of the most profound and complete texts that exist
on this deck, its meaning, spreads ...

I hope that help you.