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r/musictheory

Understanding/figuring out chord progressions?

u/__deerlord__

Background: I'm the only guitar player in a fast/heavy band.

A lot of our riffs involve repeated single note lines or a combination of several diads (5, 7, octave). What are some good
techniques or lessons for creating backing chord progressions from these riffs? I know the obvious "look at the notes
from the riff", but these dont always fit cleanly into progressions with longer changes (say, every measure). My hope is
to be able to create some kind of "harmony framework" for our bass player to write lines against.

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 manan_malhotraa • 2d
The key of your riff, is the key to your progression. As it goes without saying that music is just Tension and Release, and
so are chords, now I might not be able to give you the chords you need but I can help you on what chord, in a key, gives
what effect so you can suit yourself. Chords I, III, and VI are the chords which create resolution (release), I being the tonic
of the key is used the most. Chords V and VII are Dominant (Tension) chords these create a tension during a progression,
while chords II and IV are subdominant, these chords come between the dominant chords and the resolution chords to
cover the gaps. So for longer changes, you can use a progression like I IV V VI III V and back to I, or you can just go in a
decending order through the chords of the scale. I hope this helps, i am new to both reddit and this sub.

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
You listed all the chords as major, but I assume that was just for ease of reading correct? IE if the key contains i and ii I
would still be playing those chords as minor?
Edit: I'm also wondering how exactly you arrive at the key. I know how to find scales, but for instance the major scale is
also the modes, just different roots. How do you decide that something is in D dorian and not C ionian? Is it simply a
matter of how you reinforce which chord is the one (I or i), and you make those choices based on how a given mode
sound? That was my first assumption, but really what I'm trying to learn is things beyond the surface level "obvious"
answers.

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 manan_malhotraa • 2d
Yes, i listed all of them as major for ease of reading, and i am so sorry but i am still learning how to play modally,
although here is a link that might help you. https://outsideshore.teachable.com/courses/jazz-improvisation-
primer/lectures/3178333

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 stitchgrimly • 1d
You would say it's D dorian if you were resolving and/or starting with Dm in most cases. It's really about
communication. You could tell your bandmates the song is in C, but then they might get confused when you start
plying Dm. D dorian is a convenient way around that. There is a lot of ambiguity in theory but the thing to remember
is it only exists as a means to communicate ideas effectively, not necessarily conceive them, so go with what works
best in any given situation. Sorry I'm late to the party.

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 unilateral9999 • 2d
so your question is that your band has a catchy riff that doesn't really seem like a clear chord progression and you want to
know what to play over it?
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 __deerlord__  • 2d
Right, or rather techniques for creating those chord progressions. Like I said the obvious answer is to look at the notes
from the riff, but I'm wondering how I can dig deeper than that.

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 unilateral9999 • 2d
what's a musical example of something that's doing what you want to do?

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
I'm not trying to cop a particular piece of music, but rather understand what aspects of theory I might look into
further.

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 unilateral9999 • 2d
do you know roman numeral notation for music?

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
Yes, I understand how to make chords out of scales and what progressions/cadence are, just not well
versed.

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 unilateral9999 • 2d
so to be clear, given a progression like "i VII VI v" you can figure out what those notes would be in each
chord for any given key and is the issue that you cannot work backwards from a pile of notes into their
roman numeral progression?

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• __deerlord__  • 2d
Yes and no. For instance we have a song thats in an octanic scale, and a riff that utilizes what would be
the 1, minor 3, major 3, and 6 of the chord. But AFAIK this wont fit cleanly into one chord due to the 2
types of 3rds. So i can work that this could be a minor or a major chord, but I'm not sure how else I can
work out what other chords I might use. Chord subs are something I just recently started learning as
well.

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• •  unilateral9999 • 2d
alright. i think i understand where you are.
learn about chord inversions. ask yourself "what's the difference between a i chord with the notes 1 3 6
and a VI chord with the notes 6 1 3?". the answer is that the i chord is really a VI chord and not a i chord
at all, it's just tricking you because the 1 is at the bottom, not the 6. a 1 3 6 chord is a first-inversion VI
chord, not a i chord ----- unless the 6 resolves to a 5 in the very near future.
in the case of your example, the root of the chord is probably that 6, not the 1, and your minor 3 is acting
as a chromatic leading tone to the major 3 which is acting as the dominant of the chord. so if you want to
spam 1 note to emphasize the harmony during that riff, you should start with the 6 because it's the most
harmonically stable and possibly the 1 on top of it because that 1 is stable, too. the only tension then is
from the two different 3s and your harmony won't interfere with it and it will in fact allow both to exist.
also, that would mean that you should re-think of your chord as 1 3 4# and 5, with the 4# not being
harmonically active. it's also in first inversion so it's 3 4# 5 1.

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••• __deerlord__  • 2d
 inversions
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Im aware of these but didnt think about applying it here. Thanks for the reminder!

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 dbulger • 2d
I'm not going to try to answer your question, because it's too big a question and I haven't the expertise anyway. But
sometimes it's just a matter of knowing the right search terms, so I suggest you read about "harmonization" and
"reharmonization." (In practice, I think these are basically the same thing, but you'll find some good advice under each of
the search terms.)

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 mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop • 2d
It's really hard to give specific tips but I'd recommend recording the song so you can play along as a first step, then try to
identify where you think the chord should change. Now you have the smaller problems of finding 1 chord for the notes
played.
Also don't fall into the trap of thinking adding a maj/min 3rd to a power chord is always a great idea. It could ruin the
sound in a lot of cases.

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
Definitely, I make heavy use of the 7 and 5/flat 5, so I'd rather find ways to re-inforce the root or add some flavor other
than the 3rd.

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
Would you recommend 5 diads, since those will have the least flavor, or is there some other approach?

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 mrclay piano/guitar, transcribing, jazzy pop • 2d
That's a question for someone familiar with the genre. You're best off studying what other bands have done and
recording some experiments, see if your bandmates like them.

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 xX_SuperSic58_Xx Prog/Metal // Guitar|Piano // Composition • 2d
Look up Michael New on YouTube, and see also Adam Neely.
Long story short, you need to know modes and scale degrees and chord theory to do this well. And if you care about
being a good musician, you will want to learn all this.
Go listen to some Guthrie Govan or Paul Gilbert. They can tell you, musically, exactly what they are doing. They don't just
wing it or half understand it.
So to build chords to back your riffs? 1) Find which notes make your riff. 2) find which chord is made from those notes. 3)
consider the modal context of what you are playing, adjust chords to emphasise the important tones of your riffs. 4)
adjust voice leading and instrumentation choices to complete the backing.
Music theory sounds daunting but it is actually REALLY easy. Figuring out how to use it to do great things however takes
experience.
I saw a busker last night and asked him to play me something Lydian dominant and was met with a "huh?". How
disapppinting...

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
Adam Neely is great, hes def a regular watch. On point 3, are you saying that some of the notes need to be ignored for
determining chords? For instance, we have a single note riff that moves through 1, minor 3rd, major 3rd, and 6th of a
chord. The 1 and 5 are obvious candidates, but I'm guessing we would want to reinforce the 6 as well (and avoid the
3rds)?

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 64diamonds • 2d
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Read or watch lessons on reharmonisation! Although reharm is usually getting some music with chords, removing and  
replacing those chords to fit the melody in a new way, the same concepts will apply when you're making up chords for a
melody from scratch. Someone mentioned Adam Neely and Michael New, which I agree would definitely be very helpful if
you look at their harmony and chord videos.

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 Jongtr • 2d

some kind of "harmony framework" for our bass player to write lines against.

I'd work the other way. The bass player normally has the roots, against which the guitar(s) creates additional chord tones
or harmony lines.
Of course, if a chord is holding steady for a while (say 2 bars at least), the bass can move around to create some interest.
Normally that would begin from the chord arpeggio. Do you (or your bass player) know major and minor chord arpeggios?
Roots-3rds-5ths? That's where to begin, whoever is creating the harmony.
You can use you ear (chord by chord) to decide whether a 3rd should be major (4 frets above the root) or minor (3 frets).
The 5th would normally be perfect (7 frets higher), as in power chords, but don't rule out the occasional b5 - especially if it
leads down 1 fret to the next chord root.
Essentially you can learn all you need to by listening to bands playing the kind of music you want to make. You don't have
to copy tracks exactly, just pick up tips when you hear something you like. That's how they learned their stuff, after all... ;-)
If you want theoretical concepts to look up, try "keys", "chord function", "modes", "mode mixture" or "borrowed chords" -
but it will take you a lot longer to learn stuff that way than by listening and copying.

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 __deerlord__  • 2d
We're a guitar driven hardcore band, so pretty much everything we write is done on drums/guitar first. I have always
heard that melodies are written first, and progressions after to support the melody, which is akin to what we're doing
(although a little more complex than single note melodies)

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 Jongtr • 2d
Yes, popular songwriting tradition is melody first, chords in support. There's no rules though! (That practice dates
from the days when songwriting was a profession and lyrics and music tended to be written by different people.)
Many (maybe most) rock bands write chord progressions first, to which singers improvise melodies - or singer and
guitarist work in tandem.
Guitarists, of course, may well write riffs before chord sequences, which count as melodic material. Bass players
then (unless they're playing riffs in unison) tend to just get given the chords and play the roots! (Of course that
depends on the hierarchy within the band....) In simpler forms of rock, chord sequences may be little more than a
bunch of power chords playing a riff - perhaps implying an overall key, but with no allegiance to a specific diatonic
scale. It's all done by ear, and with reference to whatever their inspirations were.
Naturally, common practices occur because of familiarity with the sounds - such as minor pentatonic in mainstream
heavy rock, or phrygian dominant in metal.

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 Korrun • 1d
Instead of thinking about chords to go with the riff, you could think about the bass playing another melody that sounds
good with the riff. The bass line should probably focus on some of the same notes as the riff. You could think about this
in terms of counterpoint if you've learned any of that.
You also don't have to name a chord. If you a have a riff with some weird collection of notes, just pretend like that is a
chord. You mentioned C D#E A as a riff you were using (or whatever key it is in). Try it with the bass playing C, try it with
the bass playing A, etc. See what you like. Maybe do it multiple times with different bass notes.
If you are doing octatonic stuff, don't expect it to fall into traditional chords.
Check this Rick Beato video out for some cool chords you can get from weird scales: https://youtu.be/2O2L-1dKy8g

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 __deerlord__  • 1d
Thanks! The idea of these off sounding chords being played as arpeggios/lead lines was really interesting as well.
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