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What is the cause of the Living entities entanglement and strife in this world? Is it
ignorance or his voluntary unwillingness to serve Supreme Lord Sri Krsna? Is it possible
for the soul being spiritual in Nature to have material desires? A murderer kills sleeping
beggars on the street and says that it was by the divine inspiration of Providence? Can
he in one sense be right? Does Christianity have anything in common with Sanatana
Dharma These issues are being dealt with in the following debate. To find out more.

Read on………

What follows is a philosophical discussion between Akincana Krsna Dasa (Akd) and
Bhushan Kotnis a student practicing the Krsna Consciousness philosophy in the U.S.A.
Kotnis challenges the Gita philosophy presented in the website
http://cbdvashiiskcon.blogspot.com.
Please don't confuse between the Names Baladeva Vidya Bhushan (Gaudiya Vaishnava
Acarya) and the student Bhushan Kotnis. They are two different personalities altogether.

Akd's replies are colored. When two colors appear in the same mail they are his quotes
from previous mails quoted by Bhushan Kotnis.
Hare Krsna.

**********Akd writes to Bhushan*************

Hope this mail finds you in the best of health and K.C. Long time no communication So I
thought I will send you this link. - http://cbdvashiiskcon.blogspot.com. It is of the
program I am taking on the B.G systematically verse by verse.

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Hare Krsna and all the best.
Akincana Krsna Dasa

*********** Akd's replies to Bhushan Kotnis' mail in Red***********

Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Thank you for your email, I am pleased to hear about the program you are conducting at
Vashi. In NYC we also have a Gita Sutras class divided into three levels conducted by
Rasanath Prabhu and his team. I would like to share something about how they share the
Gita for Americans.

It all started when Rasanath Prabhu was in Cornell doing his MBA. He was giving Gita
classes and one time he gave Bhagavad Gita As it Is to a female student. Some days later
she returned the Gita with a bitter mail because she couldn’t digest the some of the
purports by Srila Prabhupada on women. So he started thinking how to culturally
translate the message in this post modern era especially in USA.

In the Gita Sutras they have formed an innovative approach. They use examples from
western philosophers Freud, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche etc also lot of stuff from NY Times,
experiences in Business Schools, corporate world, documentaries, and movies.

Hare Krsna. Thank Krsna that in India I don't have to read these philosophies to preach.
Most of the Indians appreciate the talk if we directly speak from the Gita and the
Mahabharata. They in fact find it very interesting. This is one of the advantages for a
preacher in India. He has the luxury to dive deep into the Vedic literatures directly and
can also get a huge audience to come and listen to you.

The western world was shaped by these western thinkers and they communicate to the
students how the thoughts in Bhagavad Gita were also echoed by these personalities.
Rasanath Prabhu also writes articles for the Huffington Post, I found them interesting

I checked the website. Nice design and content. Fit for the western audience. In fact it
hardly looks like a Hare Krsna or any other typical religious website. Real hard work.

Also one of the significant aspects in his classes his dissecting the human psyche, what
are our motivations, why do we do things the way we do. This is something everybody
can relate to. The last Bhagavatham class we discussed about how we have this "hero"
nature and need for validation ingrained in all of us.

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Here we analyze the psyche of Arjuna from the Bhagavad Gita directly from the Acaryas
commentaries. The different reasons Arjuna gives for not fighting etc. It makes just
excellent preaching material.

However the most important part of his classes is vulnerability. I.e making everything
personal.

This is very important. Bhakti Caru Maharaj gives the formula to preach. About 60% love,
15% Prasad, 10% kirtan, 5% philosophy, and 10% everything else in ISKCON which is
responsible to make a devotee. People are hardly philosophical these days. I mean does
it take philosophy to engage in drug alcohol and other forms of addictions. Still majority
people engage in it unrestrictedly. So it is the experience they are looking for. And a
pleasurable one.

Sharing how has Bhakti affected me? Sharing openly the defects in myself and how I am
struggling against them. This takes a lot of courage and it’s very powerful. He openly
shares his anarthas, his fall downs, his struggles and his victories and thus creates a very
open a non judgemental atmosphere where everyone else can be open. This is very
powerful.

Wow. That really takes courage. Like His Holiness Radhanath swami has done in his book,
the journey home. Narada also tells Vyasa about his fall down from a demigod Gandarva
named Upabarana to become a sudra in his past life. So this is a bonafide method to
preach given in the Srimad Bhagavatham originally initiated by Sage Narada.

…….I read your article on chapters 3 and 4 on activity. I have some comments about the
article. From the article it seems that if you do devotional service properly (i.e with
activity) then one will get good material results. Just like the IIT student who topped. You
also mentioned some qualifications (University degree etc) required for being a
Brahmachary and thus kind of portrayed that Brahmachary/Spirituality is not some
escapism.

In one sense I think spirituality is escapism in the sense that we want to escape from
material anxieties, suffering etc. And materialists also want to escape from miseries, but
they look externally and find simply band aids rather than getting to the root and
destroying it once and for all. The spiritualist thinks of the permanent solution while
materialists are less intelligent and think of stop gap measures.

So in that particular devotee from his replay about chanting it seems he took chanting as
an external solution so that chanting was just some external adjustment for him. And
probably he took that due to the mood of passion and things in mode of passion never
give good results. The principle of chanting is correct, but he misapplied it. But we also
see devotees who applied that principle properly and one of the best examples of this is
HG Aindra Prabhu.

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A preacher can argue from both sides. It depends on from which reference point he is
discussing. For eg. Arjuna wanted to quit fighting. And there is no denying the historical
fact that Krsna engaged him in fighting. He wanted to escape, isn't it?
Yes but Krsna also gave him the solution to escape the problems of fighting a war which
he so badly wanted to avoid. He told him the process of Bhakti yoga. So this is escapism.
Isn't it.

I read an article of Sacinandana Swami (His articles are very profound

http://bhakticollective.com/2010/01/09/focus-on-the-essential-and-escape-the-tyranny-
of-the-one-thousand-urgent-things/ ) in which he dissected the reason for our business
and attachment to activity. We are busy with 10,000 little things just to keep the fear of
death away.
Restlessness and activity which clouds the intelligence is in the mode of passion and such
activity is useless.

In fact to sit in one place and be completely aware/mindful and do nothing is not possible
for those in the mode of passion.
I quote from one of his (HH SNS) articles.

The French mathematician Blasé Pascal once wrote: “All man´s miseries derive from not
being able to sit quietly in a room alone.”
Lord Krsna in the B.G and Prahlad Maharaja in the Bhagavatham and S.P refute Blasé
Pascal.
B.G 3.5 - Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired
from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something,
not even for a moment.

SP Quote: We saw a signboard in a yoga society in Los Angeles that said “You become
silent, and you’ll become God.” And here Krsna says that you cannot become silent even
for a moment.

Lec BG 3.1–5 Los Angeles 68

5. Prahlad’s prayers to Nrshimhadev – (Mauna vrata or silence is meant for neophytes.
S.B 7.9.46)
When a child speaks a lot of rubbish. Parents tell them to shut and sit quietly. When he is
sober. He is expected to speak and behave the right way.

It’s not that we should accept or renounce activities, because such thoughts stem from
ignorance, the right approach is to have an elevated consciousness while performing an
activity. Important is an elevated consciousness and not if I do an activity or I don’t or if I
top or I don’t top. Activity/results of an activity may or may not be a correct index of
person’s consciousness.

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As I quoted Gita earlier. Activity can never be stopped at any time.

Please let me know your thoughts, I always like my conceptions to be challenged and in
this way I can learn more.

Hope you gained from the conversation. Keep in touch. Hare Krsna

Thanks A Lot

Your Servant
Bhushan

***Akd replies to Bhushan Kotnis' mail in purple. What appears in Red are his replies
from previous mail************
From: Bhushan Kotnis Date: Thursday, July 22, 2010, 7:47 PM

Hare Krishna
Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu
Thank you so much for your email and the replies. I was thinking about what you said,
and was not sure how I should reply, but now I am happy reading your email that you
would like to see a reply. I like doing discussions and especially like to challenge what
I/other believe, although I don’t want to hurt anyone feelings in any way, sometimes my
lower nature does take better of me and I regret that but it’s an ongoing work to purify
myself and will take some time.

I have certain comments on your replies. As far as the western philosophers are
concerned some of them are quite deep. Maybe not as much as the Vedic/Vedanta
scriptures. Especially Soren Kierkegaard the Danish Philosopher also known as founder of
existentialism. He was a religious/spiritual person who bluntly and honestly spoke against
the corrupt Danish church. He has an entire book on how following the orders of God
with intelligent faith is much superior to simply following moral instructions. He uses the
story of Abraham and Ishmael from the Bible (God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son
Ishmael). I read one of his books where he emphasized subjective reading of scriptures.
He emphasized subjectivity rather than objectivity e.g. of objectivity is maybe I have read
the Bhagavad Gita thrice, but subjectivity is how much I have realized or am following the
Bhagavad Gita.

I would recommend his books. Also I found the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali very interesting.
A devotee from Rutgers University Dr Edwin Bryant, Advaita Prabhu, wrote a brilliant
commentary and has included a devotional perspective also. Dhanurdhara Swami used to
give lectures on it and has written a nice article on it.
When you come to India. May be you can give a talk on these philosophies. I may not
have the patience to read.

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http://bhakticollective.com/2009/08/02/893/
Lord Krsna in the B.G and Prahlad Maharaja in the Bhagavatham and S.P refute Blasé
Pascal.
B.G 3.5 - Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired
from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something,
not even for a moment.

I don’t think this verse refutes Blasé Pascal. Blasé Pascal simply talks about the evil
effects of mode passion due to which there is restlessness an activity. Of course Blasé
Pascal doesn’t know anything about activity of the soul. But the point is the rajo guna
activity has to be reduced (mauna can be useful) and satva guna should be increased.
As sattva guna increases activity born of mode of passion decreases. This is also practiced
by Buddhists whose sole purpose is to calm the mind to awaken wisdom.

Sure. I only read about Pascal in my engineering. Pascal's law: it states that the
Pressure applied to an enclosed fluid is transmitted equally in all directions and to all
parts of the enclosing vessel……. So I am not an authority on Pascal. But please read on.

Thus rajo guna activity should not be confused with activity of the soul (and it usually is
confused).
I have my reservations about this point. Could you please quote scriptural reference for
this?

The activity of the soul part was quite interesting. I accept that soul is active, but a
conditioned soul cannot be active.

I have major reservations about this point too. Could you please quote scriptural
reference for this?
In fact in the purport of B.G 3.5 S.P says, "It is not a question of embodied life, but it is
the nature of the soul to be always active. Without the presence of the spirit soul, the
material body cannot move. The body is only a dead vehicle to be worked by the spirit
soul, which is always active and cannot stop even for a moment. "
So if the rajo guna activity is not the activity of the soul in the conditioned state as you
say how the soul is active without serving Krsna. So all activity in the three modes is the
activity of the soul conditioned by modes.
Check out this verse:B.G 14.5
Material nature consists of three modes—goodness, passion and ignorance. When the
eternal living entity comes in contact with nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, he becomes
conditioned by these modes.
PURPORT
The living entity, because he is transcendental, has nothing to do with this material
nature. Still, because he has become conditioned by the material world, he is acting
under the spell of the three modes of material nature (Note this). Because living entities
have different kinds of bodies, in terms of the different aspects of nature, they are

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induced to act (Note this) according to that nature. This is the cause of the varieties of
happiness and distress.

The pure nature of the soul is to serve Lord Krishna, and that is its only activity it can’t do
any other activity. Just like when I am convinced that I am a man and hence I should
enjoy a women, my gaze naturally goes towards a women, just like that a soul just knows
that it is a servant of Krishna and hence it’s very natural for it to serve Lord Krishna in a
loving way.

Because of this mysterious glue called ignorance which has no beginning (but has an end)
the soul identifies with the mind and hence the natural activity of the soul is stopped. But
we still find that conditioned souls do all kinds of activities, that is due to the rajo guna in
the mind, or the fluctuating vrittis.

So when a conditioned soul doing some activity based on false conceptions, how can it
be the activity of the soul, it’s the activity of the mind, the soul should be the observer
but unfortunately its entangled and thinks it’s the doer and identifies with the activity
and the result of the activity.
You are misconceiving between the activity of the modes and the soul. Here is a
reference from the Gita on the mind and the modes. B.g 14.22-25 The Supreme
Personality of Godhead said: O son of Päëòu, he who does not hate illumination,
attachment and delusion when they are present or long for them when they disappear;
who is unwavering and undisturbed through all these reactions of the material qualities,
remaining neutral and transcendental, knowing that the modes alone are active(Note
this: Illumination attachment and delusion are the activities of the modes. So the soul has
the choice to act being influenced by it or without.); who is situated in the self and
regards alike happiness and distress; who looks upon a lump of earth, a stone and a piece
of gold with an equal eye; who is equal toward the desirable and the undesirable; who is
steady, situated equally well in praise and blame, honor and dishonor; who treats alike
both friend and enemy; and who has renounced all material activities—such a person is
said to have transcended the modes of nature.
So in the process of purification the material temporary activities must reduce so that the
natural activity of the soul may awaken. In the shanta rasa it’s just awakened as the soul
is the observer of the awe and grandeur of Lord Krishna's majesty. As the rasa gets more
intense the activity of the soul increases in dasya, sakhya etc.

The deep desire for spiritual knowledge certainly comes from the soul e.g. Radhanath
Swami,( his feelings realizations give a a glimpse of his consciousness) but I don’t know if
in the example of the student you gave, what was his consciousness i.e weather the
activity was coming from the mode of passion or goodness( from the soul) or maybe it’s a
mixture of both( as you rightly pointed out in the Gita verse).

As you rightly pointed out silence is meant for neophytes and that is true and is needed. I
have personal experience when I talk with devotees, or other people my mind becomes

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disturbed, because of rajo guna. But for me silence and some kind of discipline( the 5
yamas) to calm down the mind and try to be in the mode of goodness is needed, but for
one who is already fixed in that such things may not be needed.
I still feel silence is not the recommended process in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition.
Here is what S.P has to say in his purport to S.B 3.27.7. Which may help? "A devotee
should not speak needlessly. A serious devotee has no time to speak of nonsense. He is
always busy in Kåñëa consciousness. Whenever he speaks, he speaks about Kåñëa.
Mauna means "silence." Silence does not mean that one should not speak at all, but that
he should not speak of nonsense. He should be very enthusiastic in speaking about
Kåñëa."
But what I am afraid of is that this concept of activity of the soul is usually misapplied (at
least I did). I used to think " I must do some practical activity for Krishna and that is
devotional service" and usually what used to happen is after doing that activity my mind
used to be agitated. Later by my good fortune I came across some Sacinandana Swami
lectures in which he pointed out that the important part is the mind. Devotee means the
mind.

Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura (I can’t remember the exact Sastric quote but I can
send you the lecture in which HH SNS quotes this). said that simply doing external activity
is like arranging fruits and flowers and other paraphernalia for the yajna and engaging
the mind is like lighting fire and offering the ghee. So if the later is not done the yajna is
useless.
I agree with this.
It starts with mana bhava the mind comes first, and as the mind becomes purified activity
naturally comes. So devotional service means activity is true but its often misapplied and
I guess it is misapplied in the IIT student example because there is no mention about the
intent of his activity, the motivation of his activity etc. Simply securing excellent grades
and offering them to Krishna cannot be called devotional service that maybe called
karma kanda or maybe karma mishra Bhakti.

The student i was talking about who secured excellent grades is now a b'cari since five
years. When he was in college he was spending all his time in preaching and following up
the boys for the preaching programs. His name was Kapil before initiation and Revati pati
after initiation, and he is today an inspiration of scores of students in IIT Kharaghpur even
today. So it is not a misapplication of philosophy. His motivation is pretty clear. He wants
to serve Krsna with his academics.
All the devotee students in the colleges have a standing order of his holiness Radhanath
swami that they have only two business, academics and K.C. They should try their best to
do well in academics. Following this instruction was certainly devotional service for him.
And of Course Krsna is the ultimate judge. We can at the most judge ourselves.
These are some of the thoughts in my understanding of philosophy. It is nice discussing.
Please don't mind. Even munis disagree with each other on philosophical aspects. But
devotees are united not by philosophy but devotional service
Akincana Krsna Dasa

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Please let me know your thoughts

Thanks

Your servant

Bhushan

************Akd's replies to Bhushan's mail are in Blue***************

From: Bhushan Kotnis Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 7:19 PM

Hare Krishna
Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu
Thank you so much for your replies. How is your health now? Has the malaria subsided? I
guess all these diseases remind us how fickle life is and that too full of suffering, I guess
we just have to tolerate it a wait for Lord Krishna's mercy while constantly praying to Him
and aspiring to attain the shelter of His lotus feet.
Here its summer now but after some months there will be a bitter winter, with freezing
cold winds. They have eradicated malaria here so nobody gets sick of malaria but they
are powerless to stop the cold winds nor can they stop neither death nor other deadly
diseases like depression, cancer, old age etc.
I am happy, healthy and strong now but it’s just a matter of time when old age and the
most dreaded Time factor or death will catch up with me.
We are all in this together.
The hope is that the discussion we are having will give us insights and inspire us to
transcend all kinds of pain and suffering and take shelter of Shri Krishna and His words,
and hence I continue and I thank you and value your association in this very valuable
philosophical discussion. Your points are very significant and I completely respect your
thoughts on this complex topic; however I would like add some things which may clarify
the topic.
I think you mentioned a very good point from BG 3.5 and BG 14.5 "which is always active
and cannot stop even for a moment" and "he is acting under the spell of the three modes
of material nature(Note this)"

I had given it some thought and the reason why I accepted the conclusion that soul does
not act is because of the following reason. Honestly speaking ontologically (nature of
reality) I do not exactly understand if the soul is active or not, some verses hint it is active
while some say its the observer.
BG 13.30 One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created
of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.
Purport:
This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Super soul, and whatever
activities are going on in respect to one's body are not his doing. Whatever one is
supposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the

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bodily constitution. The self, however, is outside all these bodily activities. This body is
given according to one's past desires. To fulfill desires, one is given the body, with which
he acts accordingly. Practically speaking, the body is a machine, designed by the Supreme
Lord, to fulfill desires. Because of desires, one is put into difficult circumstances to suffer
or to enjoy. This transcendental vision of the living entity, when developed, makes one
separate from bodily activities. One who has such a vision is an actual seer.

Hare Krsna, In some places the soul is said to be the doer and in other places the super
soul is said to be the doer. This is a fact. Why is it done like that. In some place the soul is
said to be the doer so that the soul takes responsibilities for his actions in this world and
doesn't put the blame on the Material nature or God... Like there was this murderer
whose name was Raman Raghava? He used to kill the beggars on the street. When he
was caught he simply said that "I was not the doer. The soul does nothing. Why do you
arrest me? The Super soul is the doer." So you see this philosophy that the soul is not the
doer is a very dangerous philosophy indeed, and can be misapplied. Then one may ask
why it is mentioned in the scriptures in that way. It is mentioned so that the soul does
not become proud of his accomplishments in this world.
B.G 18.14
The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many different
kinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Super soul—these are the five factors of action.
PURPORT
The word adhishthanam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring
about the results of activity and is therefore known as kartä, "the doer." That the soul is
the knower and the doer is stated in the çruti. Eña hi drañöä srañöä (Praçna Upaniñad
4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedanta sutra by the verses jïo 'ta eva (2.3.18) and kartä
çästrärthavattvät (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the senses
the soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. But
all one's activities depend on the will of the Super soul, who is seated within the heart as
a friend. The Supreme Lord is the super cause. Under these circumstances, he who is
acting in Krsna consciousness under the direction of the Super soul situated within the
heart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Krsna consciousness are
not ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will,
the Super soul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The adhishthanam, or place of action, refers to the entire body, or that which is held up
by the skeleton. The kartä, the performer, is ultimately the soul, who when absorbed in
material consciousness, acts through false ego. The karanam, or instruments, are the
parts of the body, the senses. The ceshtha is the overall endeavor of the senses. Daivam,
the Super soul, is the ultimate controller over all the other factors. He is the Paramätmä,
the Lord of all within the material world.
To convince us that we are not the only doers, Krsna stresses that these five factors are
the true causes of action, the ultimate “super cause” being the Super soul’s sanction.
Srila Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana comments that we are doers—our activities do spring from
our own free will—but our endeavor is not the independent cause of actions:
If the jiva’s being a doer is under the regulating control of the Supreme Lord, then we

10
have to say that his activity does not proceed from his own will and that he is actually
just like a stone or some other inert object. In that case, don’t the injunctions and
prohibitions of scripture become useless? The answer is, the jiva receives from the
Supreme Lord a body and senses endowed with specific potencies, of which he then
becomes the proprietor. Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will and
assumes control of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors.
The Supreme Lord, present within all these coverings, sanctions the jiva’s activity and
inspires him to act. In this way there is no contradiction between the Supreme’s control
and the jiva’s having his own willpower to act or to refrain from acting

Also in SB 11.11.9 and 11.11.10

11.11.9 An enlightened person who is free from the contamination of material desire
does not consider himself to be the performer of bodily activities; rather, he knows that
in all such activities it is only the senses, born of the modes of nature, that are contacting
sense objects born of the same modes of nature.

So the thrust of my argument is that the soul is transcendental and hence it cannot
have material desires, but because its identifying with the mind and body, it’s in some
kind of dream when it accepts material things as "Mine".

You just said that the soul cannot have material desires then why is it accepting the
material things as mine. This is a material desire isn't it? And why is it identifying with the
mind and body and is in some kind of dream. That means it is not transcendental. He has
been covered over by matter. The statement above is self contradictory.

In many verse material existence is compared to a dream ( however matter is an energy

of Krishna and not an imagination as argued by the Advaita Vedantists but imagination is
that I am matter and matter is mine.)

Now this is a fact. I agree.

So the conditioned souls due to this dream are simply acting like robots or like footballs
kicked by the modes which arise due to the samskaras and vasanas in the mind.
But who has caused the samskaras and vasanas in his mind for him. He himself. And thus
he is the doer. This has to be understood. And he should take responsibility for his
position.
By spiritual practice the dream fades away the soul understands itself and Krishna and
then true desire to serve Krishna rises and that I term as activity of the soul.

You just said that the soul is not active. Then how can he even perform spiritual practices
to get out of the illusion. Again this is self contradictory. He can never come out of
illusion. Perpetual illusion is the result.

You quoted that soul is always active ( that may be ontologically true) but I cannot

11
accept it as activity of the soul, that’s activity of the mind or the modes. Material desire
can never be part of the soul,

If material desire is not the part of the soul then where is the desire springing from?
From dead matter. That is impossible.

if it is then one could never get rid of it and hence no use of practicing spiritual life to
reduce material desires. And hence those activities which come from material desires
cannot be accepted as activity of the soul and hence the soul is inactive.
Also if material desire was a part of the soul then karma (action/reaction) also would be a
part of the soul and would be eternal.
Desire has to be purified. It is not necessary that the material desires have to be eternal.
Yet it is the cause of us coming to this material world.
B.G 7.27
O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion,
bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.
You quoted B.G 14.22-25 about the choice to identify with modes.O son of Päëòu, he
who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present or long
for them when they disappear; who is unwavering and undisturbed through all these
reactions of the material qualities, remaining neutral and transcendental, knowing that
the modes alone are active The reason why the liberated person is not affected by it is
because he can exactly see what they are( but seeing is also an activity isn't it), that he is
completely different from them and hence is not affected by them. Just like a movie, one
doesn’t take the cartoon movie or a dream for real and identifies with it because one
knows what it is. It’s not a matter of choice it’s a matter of realized knowledge.

Regarding silence, I agree with you but still as a conditioned soul I should always be
careful not to talk frivolously. (But you just said that the conditioned soul is inactive. Then
where is the question of control. It is just the modes isn't it?)
SB 11.16.42: Therefore, control your speaking, subdue the mind, conquer the life air,
regulate the senses and through purified intelligence bring your rational faculties under
control. In this way you will never again fall onto the path of material existence.
SB 11.16.43: A transcendentalist who does not completely control his words and mind by
superior intelligence will find that his spiritual vows, austerities and charity flow away
just as water flows out of an unbaked clay pot.
SB 11.16.44: Being surrendered to Me, one should control the speech, mind and life air,
and then through loving devotional intelligence one will completely fulfill the mission of
life.
If silence helps in absorbing mind in Lord Krishna then it should be accepted.

Regarding the example, I am very pleased to hear that the student is now a brahmachary
and is an inspiration for devotees. But Academic success and other objective measurable
things cannot be taken as index/measure of spirituality. The reason why I try to
discriminate is not to judge and disparage and get some kind of joy that I am better(

12
although that sometimes subtly happens due to my lower nature) but to understand
what is genuinely spiritual, because if I accept something which isn’t spiritual as
genuinely spiritual then I will be baffled. That is true for myself also and outside of me
also, there many things within me, what I do etc which are not spiritual although I cannot
overcome them, but still I need to know that they are undesirable. Likewise what is
outside of me, like the media advertisements for sense gratification etc I need to know if
its spiritual or not. Like that devotees also, which one is a neophyte, intermediate and
advanced. Although to do this is most difficult and often I make mistakes, it needs to be
done.
You mentioned the instruction of HH Radhanath Swami Maharaj, of doing academics
and KC. As per my understanding it means doing ones duty for pleasing Krishna. Out of
that duty one may or may not get the desired result, one should continue to do the duty.
But the same activity of studying and preaching can also be done for sense gratification.
So activity itself cannot be an index. So as you said we cannot determine( or maybe one
can if one is advanced), only Krishna knows, that is absolutly correct. So in the article it
may come off that if one gets good grades and also preaches then it is KC, however that
may not always be true(And not always false too). However one may get not so good
grades, who may not preach but still His mind maybe absorbed in Krishna and that
person may perhaps be good in some other activity which may not be so much socially
respected.
Both the cases are observed, one who worships Lord Vishnu becomes endowed with all
kinds of skills, intelligence, fame, good qualities, success and also one who worships Lord
Vishnu finds that all materially desirable things are taken away (like the Avanti
Brahmana) and such people are looked down as useless people by the general society
although they are most advanced. (I guess the second case is rare).
Yes consciousness behind the activity is the most important thing which determines
whether the activity is spiritual or not.

So in conclusion the soul being active is proven in the purport of 18.14 of the Gita. It is
very clearly presented by S.P and Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana. Thank you once again. Please
don't be offended by my arguments.
Best wishes Akincana Krsna Dasa

These are some of the thoughts in my understanding of philosophy. It is nice discussing.

Please don't mind. Even munis disagree with each other on philosophical aspects. But
devotees are united not by philosophy but devotional service

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Brahmana means independently
thoughtful, that’s has to be there. Every one of us has a different nature and hence there
will be philosophical differences and that’s beautiful. If everyone tries to have same
understanding artificially that will lead to some kind of depersonalization and self-
alienation which is harmful. Discussion in rajo guna is certainly useless where ones only
motivation is to win and if lost then one becomes bitter.

13
I think the perfection in a relationship would be that even if there are 1000 differences of
opinion, 1000s of arguments, but yet due to the goodness and purity of the heart each
one feels extremely grateful to each other and is concerned over others well being over
oneself in spite of all these differences. That is also a sign of respect that one respects
others and their opinion. Yes devotees are certainly united in devotional service, I am
extremely happy to hear that from you.

In the end I would recommend some books I went through: 1. BhaktiSiddhanta Vaibhava
2. Japa by Bhurijana Prabhu

Thank You So much.

Take care of your health

Your servant

Bhushan

********Akd's replies in Red**********

--- On Tue, 8/10/10, Bhushan Kotnis wrote:

Date: Tuesday, August 10, 2010, 12:13 AM

Hare Krishna
Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisance

Thank you for your email. I am sorry I couldn’t reply sooner as I was a little busy. I
appreciate your replies but somehow your replies somehow don’t make any sense to me.
In some place I agree with you but in some places I don’t.

"Hare Krsna, In some places the soul is said to be the doer and in other places the super
soul is said to be the doer. This is a fact. Why is it done like that. In some place the soul is
said to be the doer so that the soul takes responsibilities for his actions in this world and
doesn't put the blame on the Material nature or God... Like there was this murderer
whose name was Raman Raghava? He used to kill the beggars on the street. When he
was caught he simply said that "I was not the doer. The soul does nothing. Why do you
arrest me? The Super soul is the doer." So you see this philosophy that the soul is not the
doer is a very dangerous philosophy indeed, and can be misapplied. Then one may ask
why it is mentioned in the scriptures in that way. It is mentioned so that the soul does
not become proud of his accomplishments in this world."

Materialistic people or people in mode of passion/ignorance do not find any value in

14
spiritual life and hence they put blame on God or nature. But this is because they are in
ignorance and are simply dreaming. Robbers and thieves by their very nature are in
mode of passion and ignorance and they use their intelligence to rationalize anything
(even killing a person) and you have given a very good example of that. Any philosophy
can be misapplied but that does not make the philosophy dangerous.

In this example Raman Raghava has not misapplied the 'soul is not the doer' philosophy.
He applied it correctly. But what i am stating is that this philosophy is not a Gaudiya
Vaishnava philosophy. I simply disagree on the basis of the Baladeva Vidyabhushana's
explicit quotes i have stated on the subject.

For a fanatic KC philosophy is also dangerous. So if your argument is accepted that if a

philosophy is dangerous we should not accept it then no one should practice any religion
and people do think like that especially here in USA. Some of they are so burnt by
Catholicism that they simply say it’s such a dangerous philosophy that it should be
thrown away. Religion causes wars so do away with religion. Such mentality is also found
in some ritviks; some people had some fall down, so they conclude that the philosophy of
Guru disciple parampara is very dangerous and hence should get rid of it.

But I cannot accept such things. If someone misapplies such a philosophy it’s their
problem, no need to change the philosophy.

Again I state, that the 'Soul is not the doer is not our Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy.

Regarding the jiva and the free will, it’s clearly explained by Lord Krishna in the Uddhava
Gita that the soul is perfectly pure and transcendental.
SB 11.11.1: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, due to the
influence of the material modes of nature, which are under My control, the living entity is
sometimes designated as conditioned and sometimes as liberated. In fact, however, the
soul is never really bound up or liberated, and since I am the supreme Lord of māyā,
which is the cause of the modes of nature, I also am never to be considered liberated or
in bondage.
Also
SB 11.11.2: Just as a dream is merely a creation of one's intelligence but has no actual
substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the
acceptance of the material body under the influence of mayā are all creations of My
illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality.

But then why do conditioned souls suffer? The answer is given by Lord Shri Krishna
SB 11.11.4: O most intelligent Uddhava, the living entity, called jīva, is part and parcel of
Me, but due to ignorance he has been suffering in material bondage since time
immemorial. By knowledge, however, he can be liberated.

15
It is that due to ignorance that I am suffering and I have to come to realized knowledge
(sambandha jnyana) and that will free me from suffering.

Well, what is the point you are trying to make? The above verses, if you read the purport
carefully only proves that the 'soul is the doer' and is itself the cause of his imagination of
being bound up. The Lord doesn't enforce this imagination.

"The answer is, the jiva receives from the Supreme Lord a body and senses endowed with
specific potencies, of which he then becomes the proprietor. Acquiring those potencies,
the jiva exerts his free will and assumes control of his body and senses for the purpose of
fulfilling karmic endeavors. The Supreme Lord, present within all these coverings,
sanctions the jiva’s activity and inspires him to act. In this way there is no contradiction
between the Supreme’s control and the jiva’s having his own willpower to act or to
refrain from acting"

I disagree that the soul has some potencies and it willingly enjoys sense gratification.

Hello Bhushan.
This is a direct quote from Baladeva Vidyabhushana’s commentary as quoted by
Bhurijana Pr in his book 'Surrender unto me'. If you disagree with the Acaryas, there is no
conclusion we can ever reach. Then your discussion is based simply on logic. And Logic
can always be cut with higher forms of logic. But the tattva can never be understood. So
if you disagree with the reference of the Gaudiya Acaryas I don't have much to say. One
is free to subscribe to one's own philosophy. Just that one should not choose to call his
philosophy Gaudiya Vaishnava. Assuming that you respect the authority of the Acaryas I
continue.
The soul is unchangeable (fundamental axiom of Vedanta) and hence inside the soul if
there is a tendency to enjoy sense gratification then it can never be removed.
Well if that is what you think. i am quoting this reference again directly from the
published version of Baladeva Vidya Bhushan’s book Gita Bhushan.
******
14. These five factors are the body, the false ego, the senses of various types; the life airs
with various functions, and the super soul.

This verse enumerates the five causes. That which is ruled (adhiñöhéyate) by the jiva is
called the adhiñöhänam. This indicated the body. The doer (kartä) is the jiva. The çrutis
state that the jiva is the knower and doer, in statements such as eña hi drañöä srañöä: he
is the seer and doer. (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9) The author of the Vedanta also says jïo’ ta
eva: the jiva is the knower (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.18); kartä çästrärthavattvät: he alone is
the agent, not prakåti, because this gives the scriptures a use.[1] (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.31).

Karaëam refers to the senses like the ear, and the mental faculties. They have differing
functions (påthag vidham) in accomplishing the actions. Påthag ceñöä refers to the

16
differing functions of various types of präëa.[2]

Daivam refers to the param brahma, worthy of worship by all. He is the fifth element in
the accomplishment of action, among the causes of action (atra). This means that the
Lord, Hari, the antaryämé is the chief cause. Those who are convinced that the body,
senses, präëas and jiva are only assistant causes, and that the Lord is the initiator of
action; those people who thus reject the desire for results for themselves and the
concept of being the doer-- are consequently not bound by actions. This is the meaning.

“But if the jéva’s actions depend on the Lord, his action becomes mere engagement by
the Lord, in fulfillment of the Lord’s goal. Jéva is simply like a piece of wood. The rules
and prohibitions of scripture meant for the jéva would then be useless. It would not be
possible to initiate action by ones own intelligence, since it is seen that the jiva is simply
made to act by the Lord.”

The jiva is the substratum of body, senses and präëas which are given by the Lord, whose
powers bestowed by the Lord alone. Being the possessor of these bestowed powers, the
jiva rules over his body and senses by his own desires alone, for accomplishing his
actions.

The Supreme Lord, situated within all the jiva’s, giving His permission for action to the
jiva, sets the actions of the jiva in motion. The jiva by his intelligence can chose to act or
not to act. He is not at all forced to act in one particular way by the Lord. This is
supported by the author of Vedanta. Parät tat tac chakteù (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.40): his
powers come from the Supreme Lord.

“But then at least the liberated jiva should not be the agent, because he no longer has a
body, senses and präëas.”

No, that is not so, because the liberated souls have spiritual senses and body, by which to
accomplish their desires.

[1] The scriptures are meant for humans, giving them directions for action. If the jiva is
not a agent, what is the use of scripture. Scripture is of no use to give directions to
prakåöi, if prakåti is the only agent.
[2] Ceñöä cannot mean “activity” because activity is the subject which is constituted of
the five factors.
****
But that’s not true, inside the soul there is only one tendency which is to serve Krishna.
But that is inactive or covered and not functional or functional in minute degree and that
has to be increased.
Jaiva Dharma explains it very clearly about the actual nature called svabhava and
acquired nature called naisarga. Because of foreign nature the material activities become
prominent. But such acquired nature does not have any real substance, its a result of

17
some dream.

As i argued before that the dream is also a result of activity of the soul influenced by the
modes. As you yourself have quoted from the 11th canto if you read the purport carefully
it is said
'Although the individual soul is never actually bound to matter, he suffers the reactions
of material nature because of false identification' (My comment; Why is the soul
suffering if he is not the doer,That means that The soul's suffering is caused by the soul's
activities) 'and thus the term baddha, or "bound up," may be used to indicate the nature
of a living entity's experience within the inferior energy of the Lord. Since baddha
describes a false situation, freedom from such a false situation may also be described as
mokña, or liberation. Therefore the terms bondage and liberation are acceptable if one
understands that such terms only refer to temporary situations created by illusion and do
not refer to the ultimate nature of the living entity.'
Another thing is that I could appreciate if you could directly quote Jaiva Dharma. It will
make your presentation credible.

However for a conditioned soul it’s very real, if one says I think I am liberated and I
become liberated is new age philosophy which I disagree with. One has to practice Bhakti
to actually wake up from the dream.
This comes to the next question.
You just said that the soul is not active. Then how can he even perform spiritual practices
to get out of the illusion. Again this is self contradictory. He can never come out of
illusion. Perpetual illusion is the result.

The material activities which we see are not due to the soul.

Then as i quoted in the above para, why does the soul have to suffer the result of his
material activities. Sounds like mayavada.

When the person starts performing spiritual activities its the activity coming from the
soul. The soul is little by little awakening. And as you have rightly pointed out "perpetual
illusion is the result" This is true for our four legged brothers and sisters and also our two
legged brothers and sisters who are no better than the 4 legged ones. The soul is almost
sleeping in animals so they cannot do any spiritual practice, but if they contact some
powerful personality who can destroy their ignorance by their potency then animals also
can do devotional service e.g. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the Forest making wild
animals chant Krishna's names. Or the hippies who came in contact with Srila
Prabhupada, or why go that far, myself is a good example, I came in touch with Srila
Prabhupada books, took prasadam and that helped me do spiritual practice and it
continues to help and will continue to help me.

If material desire is not the part of the soul then where is the desire springing from?
From dead matter. That is impossible.

18
That’s a good question. The natural desire of soul is to serve Krishna but because of
ignorance it manifests in different ways.

Now again, I see a play with words. What do you mean that it manifests in different
ways. This makes no sense to me.

There are some philosophers who ascribe to the atheistic sankhya philosophy who say
that soul is not the doer at all not even in conditioned and not even in liberated state. So
they think it’s only the modes which cause activities. And liberation/bondage is just a
configuration of the modes. I don’t support this theory, but what I am saying is that for
conditioned soul/animals it is true that modes completely drive all actions.

How will you explain the activities on a soul who is aspiring for liberation? He refrains his
senses from s.g. He is not serving Krsna. He gets brahmajyoti liberation. Which mode is
controlling him? Who is the doer in this case?? Which mode of nature.
Well how will you explain the story of Bharat Maharaj who even in the body of a deer
was remembering his mistake he had committed in his past life?
S.B 5.8.31:
'Remaining in that asrama, the great King Bharata Mahäräja was now very careful not to
fall victim to bad association. Without disclosing his past to anyone, he remained in that
asrama and ate dry leaves only. He was not exactly alone, for he had the association of
the Super soul. In this way he waited for death in the body of a deer. Bathing in that holy
place, he finally gave up that body.'
This indicates that the soul is never completely covered by the modes. There is book
which was published by Janananda Pr from the Manor titled 'Animals in Krsna
Consciousness'. It is about the animals which showed inclination to hearing Bhagavad
katha. Read the B.G 3.38 purport to this verse: As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is
covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly
covered by different degrees of this lust.

But as sattva guna increases and rajo/tamo decreases what happens is that soul starts
awakening. Sattva means original or pure so as sattva increases soul starts awakening
and liberation is when rajo/tamo are completely destroyed to the point where they
cannot bind the jiva then it is called shuddha sattva. Indeed SB 1.2.24. " sattvam yad
bramha darsanam"
Similarly, passion [rajas] is better than ignorance [tamas], but goodness [sattva] is best
because by goodness one can come to realize the Absolute Truth.

But then we see Arjuna being angry, isn’t that rajo? Yes it is but it is not binding him, he
did not lose mastery over the self by fighting. Or Srila Prabhupada also, he chastised the
mayavada/scientists etc so many times, but that was not due to anger which deludes the
intelligence. They are jivan muktas.

19
These are something I wanted to clarify. Please let me know if you have any thoughts.
Thanks a lot for engaging in this nice discussion. Please don’t bear any offence.

In conclusion i would like to say that the statement that 'when the soul acts selfishly it is
not the soul acting but the modes, And when the soul serves Krsna then it is the actually
the soul acting'. This is not supported by the Sastras and the Acaryas. The soul is always
the doer and not the modes, whether conditioned or liberated. The soul has triggered
the modes to bear upon him.
Hare Krsna. Thanks a lot for the discussion. I hope this discussion is not interfering with
your academics. You may reply at your leisure time. No hurry.
Wish you all the best with preaching in the west.
Hare Krsna.
Thanks a lot,

Your Servant

Bhushan

*********Akd's replies in Blue*************

Hare Krsna Bhushan,
Hope this mail meets you in the best of health and Krsna Consciousness. Thanks for the
mail. My replies are in Blue color font.

Hare Krishna
Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

Thank you for your email. I was a bit busy so could not reply, but I get time on weekends
so here I am writing.

"In this example Raman Raghava has not misapplied the 'soul is not the doer' philosophy.
He applied it correctly. But what i am stating is that this philosophy is not a Gaudiya
Vaishnava philosophy. I simply disagree on the basis of the Baladeva Vidyabhushana's
explicit quotes i have stated on the subject."

Raman Raghava did not apply it correctly because from his actions we can understand
that he had no knowledge of the soul, he was not in touch with himself, nor did he see
the soul in others. He had no realization of atmatattva and hence he did not apply it

20
correctly and it was just a rationalization.

(That doesn’t really matter at all. When he says he has not committed the murder he is
still right according to ‘your’ philosophy that the soul cannot be materially active. So
what are you going to do with him? Release him? You can’t say that you are going to
punish him b’cos he that would mean you are applying the scriptural injunctions on him
[b’cos material reward and punishment are also scriptural injunctions). And since you
don’t ‘exactly’ agree with B.V.Bhusana and Bhurijana pr the Vedic scriptures have no
application on the material realm)Just like in 7th canto Hiranyakashipu started talking
Bhagavad Gita philosophy to calm his family, but he had no understanding of it and
hence was misapplying it.

This is my understanding of Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy and I completely agree with

Shripada Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana and the Acaryas, but I do not agree with the
explanation of HG Bhurijana Prabhu in this case only. (That quote which Bhurijana had
made is not his own. It was directly from the B.V.Bhusana commentary. So you are not
disagreeing with Bhurijana pr alone but Baladeva Vidya Bhusana.And by the way I
thoroughly accept Bhurijana Pr as an authority and so does ISKCON and his books are the
syllabus material for Bhakti Shastri degree by VIHE and VTE.I have also got my degree
from VIHE by studying Bhurijana ‘Surrender unto me’. So if you disagree even partially I
think then the discussion less comes to an end. However with the hope that there could
have been a misunderstanding I continue giving quotes.)

Note: It’s not that I don't accept any of HG Bhurijana Prabhu books/thoughts/lectures, I
like his books/lectures etc and especially his new book "Japa" and interestingly he
writes "even by simply slowing it (the mind) down as in Buddhist-style meditation one
nears transcendence! "

How do I understand Shri Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana?

“But if the jiva’s actions depend on the Lord, his action becomes mere engagement by
the Lord, in fulfillment of the Lord’s goal. Jéva is simply like a piece of wood. The rules
and prohibitions of scripture meant for the jiva would then be useless. It would not be
possible to initiate action by ones own intelligence, since it is seen that the jéva is simply
made to act by the Lord.”

I am not saying that the jiva is totally inactive. I agree that the rules and regulations
would be useless if the jiva was completely inactive.Rules and regulations are prescribed
for humans only because their soul is slightly active and thus it has the capacity to do
spiritual activity. Thus the following of rules and regulations for spiritual practice is an
activity and that is actually the soul’s activity. The scriptures never encourage sense

21
gratification, they encourage only spiritual activities hence they appeal to those who
souls are active. But animals are not expected to follow rules and regulations, and its true
all such rules and regulations are actually useless for animals for humans who are like
animals.

This is not the truth that the Vedas contain only spiritual practices. Krsna says “The Vedas
deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become
transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for
gain and safety, and be established in the self.” B.G 2.45

B.G 3.10: “In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of
men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Viñëu, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou
happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything
desirable for living happily and achieving liberation."
So Vedas contain mainly karma kanda sections meant for satisfying the senses and the
Jnyana kanda section meant for Liberation and very small section of Bhakti i.e service to
Krsna or Vishnu
B.G 2.45. “The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature.
O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and
from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.”

Again i state, that the 'Soul is not the doer is not our Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy.

I agree, but I am not saying that. I am saying that the soul is the doer of only spiritual
activities. Materialistic activities cannot be ascribed to the soul.
I have attached a picture of what I am trying to convey please refer to the same.

As shown in the picture the soul starts awakening gradually. So what Srila Baladeva
Vidyäbhüsana says is perfectly right but only for humans. Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not for
animals.
But as you mentioned some examples, there are always some exceptions. I have read the
book by HH Janananda Swami Animals in KC. Although some of these animals do show
that the soul is awakened and hence I am sure their next birth will be a human body
where they will come in contact with spirituality

Here are some more quotes by Srila Prabhupada

*****Quote 1******
In conditional life the living entity actually remains as if a captive in the hands of material
energy. Whatever the material energy dictates, the conditioned soul does. He has no
responsibility; he is simply the witness of the action, but he is forced to act in that way
due to his offense in his eternal relationship with Krsna.
*******Quote 2******
S.B 3.26.8: The cause of the conditioned soul's material body and senses, and the senses'
presiding deities, the demigods, is the material nature. This is understood by learned

22
men. The feelings of happiness and distress of the soul, who is transcendental by nature,
are caused by the spirit soul himself.
PURPORT
In Bhagavad-gétä it is said that when the Lord descends to this material world, He comes
as a person by His own energy, ätma-mäyä. He is not forced by any superior energy. He
comes by His own will, and this can be called His pastime, or Lila. But here it is clearly
stated that the conditioned soul is forced to take a certain type of body and senses under
the three modes of material nature. That body is not received according to his own
choice. In other words, a conditioned soul has no free choice; he has to accept a certain
type of body according to his karma. But when there are bodily reactions as felt in
happiness and distress, it is to be understood that the cause is the spirit soul himself. If
he so desires, the spirit soul can change this conditional life of dualities by choosing to
serve Krsna. The living entity is the cause of his own suffering, but he can also be the
cause of his eternal happiness. When he wants to engage in Krsna consciousness, a
suitable body is offered to him by the internal potency, the spiritual energy of the Lord,
and when he wants to satisfy his senses, a material body is offered.
B.G 13.21: “Nature is said to be the cause of all material causes and effects, whereas the
living entity is the cause of the various sufferings and enjoyments in this world.”
The following is one of the most brilliant purports extracted directly from B.V.Bhusan’s
commentary on the topic of the Atheistic sankyavadis as a purport to B.G 13.20 and 21
in Gita Bhusana.(Bhusana Kotnis should accept the commentaries of Vidya Bhusana. I
think you have the Name Bhushan by providence)
B.V.B says “. Prakåti is said to be the cause, instrumental in producing the body and
senses. The jiva is said to be the cause, being the enjoyer of happiness and distress.
This verse speaks of their differing functions. Kärya means body. Since the senses are
necessary in order to achieve action and knowledge, they are called käraëa. Prakåti is a
cause, in that it transforms itself (kartåtve) into the forms of the senses and body. In the
next verse the Lord will say that the jiva is situated in prakåti (puruñaù prakåti stho hi).
Jéva exploits that prakåti which appear conscious by its association with the jiva. Thus
that prakåti, ruled by jiva, is the creator of bodies and senses by transforming itself
according to the jiva’s karmas.
The jiva is the cause in the sense of being the enjoyer of happiness and distress which are
offered by prakåti. He is the agent in enjoying them. The functions of the jiva are to
preside over prakåti and experience happiness and distress. Since prakåti is the agent in
regards to production of the body and senses, but is itself exploited by the jiva, the jiva is
the main cause or doer. The author of Vedanta says kartä çästrärthavattvät:: the soul is
the agent, not prakåti, since that is the meaning of the scriptures. (Vedanta Sutra 2.3.31)
It will also be stated later that the Lord as the doer must be accepted in all cases, as was
stated earlier (the Lord is the creator, maintainer and destroyer).

The jiva, identifying with prakåti in the form of his body, experiences happiness and
distress which are born from prakåti, by births in various bodies of devatä and animal.
This is caused by his desires for objects made of the guëas.
This verse makes clear the agency of the jiva alone in enjoying and suffering and in living

23
in prakåti. The Lord also shows the cause of the jiva’s combining with prakåti.
Though the jiva is by nature knowledge and bliss, it is situated in prakåti due to
impressions of beginning less karma. Endowed with body, senses and präëa which are
produced by prakåti, which the jīva rules, the jīva experiences (bhuìkte) happiness and
distress (guëän) which are produced by prakåti.[1] Where? He experiences this by taking
births in wombs which are higher (such devas and men) or lower (animal, bird and
others), in well-made or poorly made wombs. In all this, the jéva alone is the agent.
The cause of the association is explained. The cause is beginning less desire for objects
made of the guëas (guëa saìgaù). The meaning is this. The beginning less jīva is
contaminated with beginning fewer imprints in the form of karma. The jīva desiring
enjoyable objects because of his being an enjoyer, will take shelter of prakåti equipped
with the desirables which she offers to him, until those imprints of karma are destroyed
by devotee association. With the destruction of impressions, he enjoys the happiness in
the abode of the Lord. The çruti says so’çnute sarvän kämän saha brahmaëä vipaçcitä:
he attains all his desires with the omniscient Lord. (Taittiréya Upaniñad 2.1)
The followers of säìkhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements “all activities are
carried out by the modes” (BG 3.27) “prakåti is the doer” (BG 13.20), “everything is
done by prakåti alone” (BG 13.29) and “the guëas alone are the agent” (BG 14.19),
claim that prakåti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since
prakåti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element. The ability to gain
knowledge, perceive, desire and act--the qualities of the agent--belong to conscious
entities alone. The çruti says vijïänaà yajïaà tanute karmäëi tanute’pi ca: the jīva
accomplishes knowledge, sacrifice and action. (Taittiréya Upaniñad 2.5) Çruti also says:
eña hi drañöä sprañöä çrotä rasayitä ghrätä mantä boddhä kartä vijïänätmä puruñaù:
the conscious ätmä alone is the seer, toucher, hearer, taster, smeller, thinker, knower,
and agent. (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9)
They maintain that prakåti has this nature of an agent because of being the receptacle of
the jīva and thus having superimposition of consciousness. This is not so, because the
agency of prakåti through proximity and imposition is caused by the proximity of the jīva
alone. It is seen that the ability of hot iron to burn is due to fire, not the iron. One
should not compare dull iron (or prakåti) to the water that moves or the tree that bears
fruit, and thus conclude that this proves prakåti nature as an agent, because all of that
action is accomplished by the presence of antaryämé, and because this contradicts the
çruti, which is the foundation of knowledge.
Memory (of scriptural rules) enables one to perform jyotiñöoma for bestowing svarga
and meditation for bestowing liberation. This indicates that consciousness, the
experience, not inert prakåti, is the agent.[2] Agency belongs to the jīva alone.
When there are statements in scripture saying that prakåti is the doer, those statements
are made in order to show the prominence of her functioning. Though a man carries
something using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object. Similarly, because jīva
accomplishes using prakåti, the scriptures say that prakåti accomplishes. This is how
some explain such statements.”

Well, what is the point you are trying to make? The above verses, if you read the purport

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carefully only proves that the 'soul is the doer' and is itself the cause of his imagination of
being bound up. The Lord doesn't enforce this imagination.

The scripture is very silent on the origin of ignorance,

In the above purport the origin of ignorance has been explicitly mention. It is absolutely
clear.

But that is not of interest. The Lord doses not enforce the imagination but gives sweet
instructions like Bhagavad Gita, SB so that we can come out of ignorance. Some people
ask why we are put here and did Krishna put us here etc since He is the cause of all
causes. Expert preachers who are compassionate answer this question in a way to
encourage them so they say that we actually choose to leave Krishna and we are envious
of Lord Krishna and not it’s a place to reform ourselves. However this is preaching not
siddhanta.
This is what Garuòa däsa / Ravéndra-svarüpa däsa / Çubhänanda däsa / Çukavak däsa /
Dayänanda däsa / Gaura Keçava däsa / Brahmä-muhürta däsa / Nandaräëé-devé däsé /
Haripriyä-devé däsé write in the Vyasa puja offering to Srila Prabhupada. “By your
teachings and example, we have learned that preaching is a transcendental art, and that
there are many ways to present Kåñëa consciousness. Since this preaching field is so vast
and variegated, you teach us that an Acarya is one who “cannot be expected to conform
to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Kåñëa consciousness may
be spread” (Cc. Ädi-lélä vol. 2, p. 23). You have shown us that an expert preacher
presents the Vaiñëava siddhanta unchanged, but he does not always present this
Vaiñëava siddhanta in exactly the same way. His behavior and speaking varies as the
requirements of each preaching task are revealed to him by Kåñëa.”
So next you hear a bonafide preacher give a class on this issue. Don’t think that he is not
speaking siddhanta. In fact we should all work to humble our selves rather think that the
preacher is preaching duplicity. This is generally the mentality in the west. To doubt. To
be very proud to think they know a lot. And that through logic they can understand
everything. They are very pure. Reading too much of philosophy of the Europeans subtly
contaminates people.
The soul can never be envious of the Shri Krishna. So does Lord enforce this? No, because
the soul is misidentifying with the mind and body that’s why he suffers. So does Lord
enforce this misidentification? My experience is that by reading Lord Krishna's
instructions ones ignorance reduces. The root cause of bondage is this ignorance of who I
am and who is responsible for it, I don’t know, but the soul is certainly responsible for
getting out of it and Shri Krishna always assists such a person. And getting out of it is the
manifestation of the activity/awakening of the soul.

My comment; why is the soul suffering if he is not the doer, that means that The soul's
suffering is caused by the soul's activities)

No its caused by ignorance and not by souls activities.

25
Yes but what is causing the ignorance B.G 7.27 Krsna explains,
[“O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion,
bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.”

PURPORT
The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the
Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this
pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by the illusory energy and cannot understand
the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of
desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with
the Supreme Lord and envies Kåñëa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.]
Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur writes his commentary on the above verse.

“When do the jiva’s become bewildered by Your Maya? At the beginning of the creation
of this universe (surge), all the jiva’s (sarva-bhütäni) become bewildered. How? Desire for
objects favorable to the senses, and hatred for things which obstruct the pleasure of the
senses, arising from previous actions, give rise to illusion of duality--of respect and
disrespect, hot and cold, happiness and distress, and woman and man. A person thinks “I
am happy, being respected.” “I am sad, being disrespected.” “This is my wife.” “This is my
husband.” This duality gives rise to complete ignorance (moha). That in turn gives rise to
complete bewilderment (saàmoham)--extreme attachment to wife and sons. “

temporary situations created by illusion and do not refer to the ultimate nature of the
living entity.'

As you said the ultimate nature of a living entity is transcendental and this ultimate
nature I refer to as soul. Which is manifested in various bodies in various ways in various
extent. In a liberated person its fully manifest.
Then as i quoted in the above para, why does the soul have to suffer the result of his
material activities. Sounds like mayavada.
Soul suffers due to the bond between itself and the mind which is subject to karma
technically called ignorance. This is also confirmed by Avanti Brahmana in the Uddhava
Gita (this part is also called Sanyaasi Gita/Bhikshu Gita).

SB 11.23.42: The brāhman
a said: These people are not the cause of my happiness and
distress. Neither are the demigods, my own body, the planets, my past work, or time.
Rather, it is the mind alone that causes happiness and distress and perpetuates the
rotation of material life. (Note he says his past work is also not cause of his suffering).

I simply disagree with your interpretation. Now again I argue on the basis of the Purport
of B.V.B. Quote: “Though a man carries something using his hand, we say that the hand
carries an object. Similarly, because jiva accomplishes using prakåti, the scriptures say
that prakåti accomplishes.”

26
then what does he blame his suffering on?

SB 11.23.44: Although present along with the struggling mind within the material body,
the Super soul is not endeavoring, because He is already endowed with transcendental
enlightenment. Acting as my friend, He simply witnesses from His transcendental
position. I, the infinitesimal spirit soul, on the other hand, have embraced this mind,
which is the mirror reflecting the image of the material world. Thus I have become
engaged in enjoying objects of desire and am entangled due to contact with the modes
of nature.

So he attributes his suffering to his embracing of his mind which is also called ignorance.
He further argues that happiness and distress is not part of the soul (hence material
desire is not part of the soul.

This is your own speculation. The Sastras are like the bright sunshine and your
interpretation are like clouds blocking the sunshine. (With due respects).You have been
reading the philosophies of too many European thinkers. And by the way, embracing the
material mind is also a material activity of the soul. And also if the material desire is not a
part of the soul he shouldn’t be embracing the material mind. If you say it is b’cos of
ignorance, it is not a spiritual attribute either.
Also the last statement, ‘Thus I have become engaged in enjoying objects of desire and
am entangled due to contact with the modes of nature.’ Is very important to note. Thus it
is very much possible that The soul can enjoy materially and thus be active even
materially.

The statement "Acquiring those potencies, the jiva exerts his free will and assumes
control of his body and senses for the purpose of fulfilling karmic endeavors. " Is not
correct as confirmed here.
The fact that the soul is embracing the material mind indicates he is fulfilling his material
desires. You should also read the purports along with the context in which they are
quoted or you will be mislead.
SB 11.23.54: If we assume that fruitive work is the cause of happiness and distress, we
still are not dealing with the soul. The idea of material work arises when there is a
spiritual actor who is conscious and a material body that undergoes the transformation
of happiness and distress as a reaction to such work. Since the body has no life, it cannot
be the actual recipient of happiness and distress, nor can the soul, who is ultimately
completely spiritual and aloof from the material body. Since karma thus has no ultimate
basis in either the body or the soul, at who can one become angry?
There is nothing in this verse too that contradicts B.V.B’s statements. This says that
fruitive work is not the cause of happiness and distress. So there is no use blaming it.
Further................
SB 11.23.55: If we accept time as the cause of happiness and distress, that experience
still cannot apply to the spirit soul, since time is a manifestation of the Lord's spiritual

27
potency and the living entities are also expansions of the Lord's spiritual potency
manifesting through time. Certainly a fire does not burn its own flames or sparks, nor
does the cold harm its own snowflakes or hail. In fact, the spirit soul is transcendental
and beyond the experience of material happiness and distress. At whom, therefore,
should one become angry?

This verse says that it is not ‘time’ which the cause of the happiness distress is.
I again quote from BVB
The followers of säìkhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements “all activities are
carried out by the modes” (BG 3.27) “prakåti is the doer” (BG 13.20), “everything is
done by prakåti alone” (BG 13.29) and “the guëas alone are the agent” (BG 14.19),
claim that prakåti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since
prakåti, like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element. The ability to gain
knowledge, perceive, desire and act--the qualities of the agent--belong to conscious
entities alone. The çruti says vijïänaà yajïaà tanute karmäëi tanute’pi ca: the jéva
accomplishes knowledge, sacrifice and action. (Taittiréya Upaniñad 2.5) Çruti also says:
eña hi drañöä sprañöä çrotä rasayitä ghrätä mantä boddhä kartä vijïänätmä puruñaù:
the conscious ätmä alone is the seer, toucher, hearer, taster, smeller, thinker, knower,
and agent. (Praçna Upaniñad 4.9)

Further......
SB 11.23.56: The false ego gives shape to illusory material existence and thus experiences
material happiness and distress. The spirit soul, however, is transcendental to material
nature; he can never actually be affected by material happiness and distress in any place,
under any circumstance or by the agency of any person. A person who understands this
has nothing whatsoever to fear from the material creation.

The conclusion or essence of his song is this, following verse.

SB 11.23.57: I shall cross over the insurmountable ocean of nescience by being firmly
fixed in the service of the lotus feet of Kr
s
n
a. This was approved by the previous ācāryas,
who were fixed in firm devotion to the Lord, Paramätmä, and the Supreme Personality of
Godhead.

If the soul is materially inactive there would have been no necessity of bringing out the
demerits of this material world so graphically by using adjectives like ‘insurmountable’
and nouns like ‘ocean of nescience’ etc. This verse is exclusively to discourage material
activity and taking up d.s.

It is also confirmed in the Jaiva Dharma. Chapter 1

"The eternal nature of a thing is its eternal religion. The religion of something comes
from its original identity. When Lord Krishna desires to create something, He creates its
original nature. That original nature is its eternal religion. However, when as thing comes
into contact with other things, its nature may become changed. After some days that
changed state becomes firmly established and it seems to be the eternal nature of the

28
thing. However this changed nature is not in truth the real nature of the thing. These
changed natures are called nisarga. I will give you an example of such a changed nature.
Water has an original nature. The original nature of water is that it is liquid. However, in
contact with certain circumstance, that nature becomes changed and the formerly liquid
water may become solid ice. That is the changed nature of water, which seems to be its
original nature. However, this changed nature is not eternal. It is always temporary. It is
manifested for some reason, it remains for some time, and eventually it disappears of its
own accord. On the other hand, the original nature of a thing is eternal. Even when the
changed nature is manifested, the original nature remains, although it is dormant. In the
course of time, when circumstances are favorable, the original nature is again openly
manifested.
"the original nature of a thing is eternal. Its changed nature is temporary. One who
knows the truth knows the difference between the eternal and temporary nature. One
who does not know the truth thinks the temporary nature is eternal."
----------------------------------------------
So the original nature is transcendental and it is not that the original nature itself
changes, this is impossible otherwise we wouldn’t have used the word eternal nature. It
becomes superimposed by artificial nature and then that artificial nature becomes well
established the real nature is dormant (or soul is sleeping/inactive)

Again super speculation. What is this ‘superimposed’ and stuff. Where is it said by B.V.T.?
All he is saying is ‘its nature may become changed’. Please don’t speculate? You may then
argue that if it is changed then how it could be eternal? Yes, But that is written. And that
has to be possible. Both have to be true on the spiritual realm. We must never change
the wordings of the scripture to make it fit into our logic. Words like superimposed are
not warranted. It is a product of a fertile speculative brain.

This is not supported by the Sastras and the Acaryas. The soul is always the doer and not
the modes, whether conditioned or liberated. The soul has triggered the modes to bear
upon him.

How is that? Why do you say that the soul has triggered the modes? The scriptures say
that soul is trapped by the modes since time immemorial. As per my replies above would
you still say that soul is the doer of material activities? If yes then how is this Gaudiya
Vedanta?
It seems to be like the superficial Christianity like they say like this "we have sinned, we
left God and did evil and now we repent, the Son of God will deliver us from our sins."
But practitioners of esoteric Christianity say that there is a Jesus Christ a Son of God
everyone, one has to just discover that and be in touch with that. This according to me
sounds more like Vaishnavism.

I have already given quotes above and here is another one.S.P lecture Çrémad-
Bhägavatam 1.15.1New York, November 29, 1973: “We living entities, we are eternally
servant of Kåñëa. That is our position. But if we deny this position, "Now why shall I

29
become servant of Kåñëa? I am independent," then suffering begins, immediate. Kåñëa
bhuliya jīva bhoga vaïcha kare, as soon as you desire to enjoy independently,
immediately—that means immediately he is captured by mayā.

Kåñëa bhuliya jīva bhoga vaïcha kare päçate mayā tare jäpaöiyä dhare
It is very easy to understand. Just like if you don't care for the government laws, if you
want to live independently, that means immediately you are in the clutches of the police
force. You haven't got to create, it is already there. So our position is always dependent
on God. We should understand this. This is Kåñëa consciousness.”
The Mahayana Buddhists also say that there is a Bodhisattva in everyone, and everyone
is potentially a Buddha. The Advaita Vedantists also say that everyone is Bramha (Aham
Bramhasmi) but unfortunately they confuse the Bramha with Para Bramha. The sankhya
yogis (not the atheistic)( Shri VijyanBhikshu etc) also say that the soul is present in
everyone and is transcendental.

These philosophies seem to really pamper my false ego to think I am sooooooo pure. I
feel really good. I want to believe in it. But unfortunately it is not our Gaudiya Siddhanta
and so I won’t.

And finally the crest jewel of all debaters Lord Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also confirms
the same in this immortal verse He sang in front of Lord Jagannath.
Naham vipro Na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo Na sudro
Naham varni Na ca grha-patir no vanastho yatir va
Kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher
Gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

"I am not a Brahmana; I am not a ksatriya; I am not a vaisyo or a Sudra. Nor am I a

brahmachary, a householder, a vanaprastha, or a Sanyaasi. I identify myself only as the
servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna, the maintainer of
the Gopis. He is like an ocean of nectar, and he is the cause of universal transcendental
bliss. He always exists with brilliance." (Padyavali 74). He never said," I was evil soul and
through repentance I have become a good soul and I won’t go back to becoming an evil
soul because I have learnt my lesson." No He says He was never an evil soul but always a
servant of servant of Shri Krishna.

Now again another case of mental speculation. ‘He was never an evil soul’. Good
gracious. This is in the past tense. But everything is in the present continuous tense in the
above verse. So your purport is a misrepresentation.
Quoting BVB
B.G 13.29. He who sees all activities being done by matter alone, and sees the soul as
doing nothing, actually sees. “How does he perform this distinction of the individual self
from prakåti?[3] The Lord explains in two verses.

30
He who sees that all activities are being done by prakåti alone, and impelled by the Lord,
by my superintendence (indicated by the word ca), and sees the ätmä as not doing those
activities, he alone sees himself as he truly is.
This is the meaning. I, a jīva, having a nature of knowledge and bliss, do not actually
perform the actions which produce suffering, such as fighting or sacrifice. Inspired by the
Supreme Lord according to my desires for fulfilling my enjoyment, and superintended by
me who have lost discrimination and possess beginning less impressions for enjoyment,
this prakåti alone with the nature of happiness, distress and illusion does the actions,
through my body and senses. Because of supplying the body and senses, prakåti is the
doer of the actions. Prakåti is the doer of the actions because of being the instrument.
The pure jīva, the non-doer, is separate from prakåti which accomplishes that action. By
this (since he sees the jīva as non-doer in material acts) it is clear that such a person also
sees that the pure jiva is also a doer.”

So in conclusion the Acaryas say that the soul is completely transcendental and by nature
it loves servant of Lord Krishna, but due to ignorance its suffering.
Again I have refuted this claim of yours on the basis of the teachings of Baladeva Vidya
Bhusana, Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakur, Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Please don’t bear any offense; I am really grateful for your wonderful thoughts and for
bearing patience with me.

Please don’t mind my refutations either. You are my friend. I still remember you while
you were here during the Gita course and your visit to India during vacations. You are
certainly a deep thinker and a person with service attitude. And I appreciate that.
However the philosophy as I have been taught by my gurus differs from yours and thus I
have to present the points accordingly. I don’t claim to know a lot. I am not a scholar. I
am only repeating. So thank you very much for your patience. All the best.
Hare Krsna.
Thank You.

Your
Servant

***********Akd's replies in Dark Brown Color***************

Hare Krishna
Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu,

31
Thank you very much for your email. Now I exactly understand why you wrote that
article, and I guess you understand why I wrote my comments, doubts. Both of us have
different points of views, and I guess we have to agree to disagree.
My understanding of Shri Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana is quite different from yours.
I know many devotees/ISKCON Gurus/Gurus outside ISKCON etc who also support my
view.
Why don't take the official ISKCON GBC View on it. Reference quoted in the last para of
this mail.
And I specifically quote from a source whom you have great faith in and whom I also
respect very much which is HH Radhanath Swami.
HH Radhanath Swami (From nectar drops page 72)
"When the soul - which is sat cit ananda, is clouded by the false ego, the mind tries to find
pleasure somewhere else through the senses"
Hare Krsna happen to be the unworthy disciple of the person you are quoting above. He
has delivered more lectures in ISKCON Chowpatty than any other place in the world. I
have by causeless mercy had the opportunity to hear a large no. of them. And I can tell
by my experience the statement above only speaks about the soul being clouded by false
ego which I agree cent percent. However where is the statement, saying that ignorance
or false ego is the original cause of the fall down which is the topic under discussion?
There is none. The quotation you have cited is extremely inadequate in helping one come
to any conclusion. I am surprised you quoted such a weak proof to substantiate your
case after presenting stronger ones earlier.

I would yet again quote the explicit purport of BVB on this topic

"When there are statements in scripture saying that prakrti is the doer, those statements
are made in order to show the prominence of her functioning. Though a man carries
something using his hand, we say that the hand carries an object."

The followers of säìkhya, taking isolated meanings of the statements “all activities are
carried out by the modes” (BG 3.27) “prakåti is the doer” (BG 13.20), “everything is
done by prakåti alone” (BG 13.29) and “the guëas alone are the agent” (BG 14.19),
claim that prakåti alone is the agent. That is an impetuous interpretation, since prakåti,
like a lump of earth or wood, is an unconscious element….

Even I can quote Maharaja like you did.

"People's criticizing others is an exhibition of their envy to GOD." - H.H.R.M
And I am sure you will use the same logic that I used to dismantle this citation.
"So in conclusion the Acaryas say that the soul is completely transcendental and by
nature it loves servant of Lord Krishna, but due to ignorance its suffering." - Bhushan
Kotnis

Reply to my above quote by HG Akincana Krishna Prabhu.

32
"Again I have refuted this claim of yours on the basis of the teachings of Baladeva Vidya
Bhusana, Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura, Srila Prabhupada and his disciples."

from the above quote of Radhanath Swami its clear to me that the soul is sat cid ananda
is clouded by the false ego( I used the word ignorance instead of false ego, and also used
the word superimposed instead of clouded).
Which is not warranted because the analogy of the clouds is often used in the
Bhagavatam (and not the dictionary) to mean to obscure the light of.. Or Make less
visible or unclear... And not superimpose.
Quote from the S.B introduction," It is foolish to think of oneself as more intelligent than
Çréla Vyäsadeva.He has already expressed himself in his sütras, and there is no need of
help from personalities of lesser importance. His work, the Vedänta-sütra, is as dazzling
as the midday sun, and when someone tries to give his own interpretations on the self-
effulgent sun like Vedänta-sütra, he attempts to cover this sun with the cloud of his
imagination."
So I don’t know how to reconcile your answers with HH Radhanath Swamis quote, there
may be couple of options.

1. HH Radhanath Swami does not understand Gaudiya Vaishnavism properly and hence
he is wrong and therefore the soul is not sat chid ananda or transcendental and in fact
such philosophy only makes the false ego feel "sooooooo" good. And thus this isn’t
Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

2. HH Radhanath Swami is perfectly accurate in his astute observation/conclusion that

the soul is sat cit ananda and how it is covered/clouded by false ego and thats why it has
turned toward sense gratification( or suffering).

I know for sure that the topic under discussion is not whether H.H.R.M is having a good
understanding of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition or not. We are discussing who is
having the wrong interpretations.
The 'Nectar drops' series is hardly a credible source to quote from for establishing
siddhanta. It is meant for inspiration. Also it is compiled from Maharaja's lectures and not
his writings. I don't say that what he speaks is not authority. I am saying when a person
speaks the entire context needs to be seen all the more b'cos naturally spoken language
is different from written ones. I have also quoted S.P conversations below. But I have
given the entire context and not just 'one liners'.

I close with another quote of HH Radhanath Swami. Nectar drops pg 72

“When false ego collapses material conditioning is vanquished"

Oh No! Not again.

I wholeheartedly go with option number 2.

33
Me too.

I do not want to make/ put forward any more conclusions, I think the above two quotes
are very clear. And I completely respect your point of view, but I don’t subscribe to it
which I think is fine.

I presented the point of view of the Acaryas without interpretations. Quoting the texts as
it is. I only underlined the important sentences. And yet if you feel this is my point of
view? I agree on this point that everyone has the right to subscribe or reject a person's
philosophy. However these are the conclusions of liberated souls and the Sastras and not
mine. However my humble request is that do give a careful consideration to the evidence
presented. In my opinion it plays an important role on the path to purification. I helps
one assume responsibility of his situation rather than 'blame it on the rain'.

Please don’t take any offense. Anyway we look at it the goal is to purify the heart and be
Krishna Conscious.

In fact I would like to thank you for taking time out for the discussion. It helped me
deepen my own understanding of the philosophy and also appreciate the amazing
contributions of the Acaryas like BVB and VCT on this subject.
Please don’t bear any offense; we had a great discussion of philosophy, thank you so
much for that.
I see you like my younger brother and thus spoke philosophy. Philosophy or jnyana is
secondary only to Bhakti. What you devotees are doing in America for Krsna
consciousness I am quite sure is quite amazing and i think you are pleasing S.P and the
previous Acaryas. Yet again I would like to express my apologies if I have hurt your
sentiments by my remarks. My intention was not to offend. Hope to see your ecstatic
smile sometime in the future. Hare Krsna.

You may go through some additional quotes for your perusal whenever you find time:
Yours

Bhushan

Do Christianity and Gaudiya Vaishnavism have something in common?

Bishop Kelly: Oh, yes. You’re Grace; there is one thing I wish to ask you. Do you believe in
some sort of universal but inherent deficiency in human nature, in other words, that man
irrespective of his environment, irrespective of where he comes from, that he has, he is
prone to evil? In the Catholic Church we call that original sin. Original sin is an inherited
deficiency in which man is turned away from God rather than turned towards God, and
that he holds within himself a seed of failure in..., spiritually, and also a seed of
unreliability so that the very makeup of man demands the enlightening touch and the

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helping hand of God so that he may overcome his inherent and abiding deficiency. So we
hold that that is the nature of things, which man... It's not just a good thing or an
advisable thing that man reaches out to and for God, but it is a necessary thing, that God
not merely is there to improve upon what you might say would be a natural goodness of
man, but man has a natural deficiency he needs God to overcome. And as he overcomes,
of course, he progresses further and he is enriched by God. But we hold that very clearly.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in one of the Vedic literature, that:
Nitya-siddha kåñëa-prema sädhya kabhu naya
Çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya
[Cc. madhya 22.107]
The inherent principle is eternally a fact, his obedience to God. But artificially he has
covered it, artificially. The God consciousness is there in everyone, but by so-called
material advancement, he has forgotten. He has his obedience to God, natural. Even the
aborigines in the forest, they also submit to the manifestation of God's different
energies. As soon as there is some lightning and there is thunderbolt, they immediately...
They offer obeisance. As soon as they see a big sea, ocean, they offer obeisance. So that
is inherent. But due to the material association it is covered.

Superficial Christianity or Gaudiya Vaishnavism

Hayagréva: Pascal believed in the doctrine of original sin. That doctrine holds that at one
time man fell from grace by committing some sin or other and that fall from grace
accounts for his present position between the demigods and the beasts. In other words,
that original sin accounts for man's engagement, or encasements, in matter.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is our...
Hayagréva: What was this original sin?
Prabhupada: To disobey the order of Kåñëa, or not to serve Kåñëa. Just like some
servant, he tries that "Why I am serving this master? Why not become a master." The,
sometimes psychologically it comes. A man is working in the office, he is seeing the
managing director is sitting and is taking all the money, and sometimes the worker... Just
like a capitalist and the worker. Why it is Communist movement? That they are thinking
that "We are working, and the capitalist is taking the money." So they revolt, they make
strike, and they form a society that "We have the..., we must have this money." That is
communism. So similarly, when the living entity—he is eternally part and parcel of God;
to serve God, that is his real position—but when he thinks that "Why I shall serve God? I
shall enjoy myself," that is the beginning of fall down. So what is your question? When
the... This was your question, that "When the sinful life begins?"
Hayagréva: Oh, what was what this original sin was?
Prabhupada: This is the original sin. When he thought of not to serve God but to become
God, that is the original. Just like the Mayavada, they have knowledge; they have
philosophy, everything, but still trying to become God, which is impossible. Then there is
no meaning of God. If simply by meditation and by some material efforts one can
become God, then where is the use of God? You cannot become God. But artificially you
can try to become God, and that artificial way of becoming God is the beginning of sinful
life.

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***********

The Vedic observer. How I was saved from being saved. Author Ravindra Svarupa
Prabhu
"The kingdom of God is our home, I said, our native country. All of us once resided there,
engaging in the activity of our essential nature, our eternal religion: devotional service to
God. But some of us perversely sought to deny our own nature and aspired not to be
enjoyed by God but to enjoy as He does, not to serve Him but to be served, not to be
controlled but to be the controller. In short, the original sin of the minute particle of
God's energy is the desire to become God. Therefore we are exiled to the material world,
where we can play out our masquerade and finally, by the mercy of the Lord, be
rectified."

The Adam Bomb

But all this springs from the original sinful will—the desire to become the Lord. All beings
born into the material world, Kåñëa explains in Bhagavad-gétä (7.27), show the taint of
this original sin in the form of desire and hate. That desire and hate breaks out
everywhere, but the original desire is, why can't I be God? And the original hate, why
should Kåñëa be God?
But we can change our will at any time. By fully acknowledging that God is the proprietor
of everything, the friend of everyone, and the enjoyer of all, we can end this stupid and
vicious struggle to dominate and control each other and to possess this earth for
ourselves. Now we have dedicated some of our best brains to furthering the
Is struggle; and bestowed upon suffering humanity the ripe fruit of our original sin—The
Vedic observer. Author Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu

Vyasa Puja offering - (Christians and Gaudiya Vaishnavism do have something in

common besides the ’Jesus within us')
You are teaching us what we have forgotten. We are originally all pure spiritual souls. But
our eternal function is not God, but däsa, däsa, däsa, loving servitor ship to God.
Subordinate. We fell from that position due to our original sin. The Christians also have
this concept of original sin, but when you ask them to elucidate matters, they cannot.
This is because their system also allows that despicable leeway to ultimately balk. The
reason for our falling from the spiritual world was due to our original envy and pride
toward Lord Kåñëa. We thought, "why do I have to serve Kåñëa, I am just as good as
Kåñëa." Thus we were sent down to get covered over again and again in the masquerade
ball called saàsära, the excruciating cycle of birth and death. Our original light has now
become covered by so many curtains, all linked to one another very systematically and
scientifically. You are forcing us, your disciples, to realize and remove that original curtain
so that we won't be forced to entangle ourselves only with subsequent symptoms. They

36
will be lifted automatically and thus by your grace, our moon will burst forth in full
glory…...
Your servants at ISKCON—Honolulu
Çukadeva däsa adhikäré, Jagamohini-devé däsé, Mädhurya-lélä / Satyadeva däsa
adhikäré, Mahäguëa-devé däsé, Maitreya, Muralé / Çatänanda däsa adhikäré, Kadamba-
kusumäpriyä-devé däsé, Räma-lakñmaëa / Çästä däsa adhikäré / Jagad däsa adhikäré,
Bhaktin Nancy / Harivallabha däsa adhikäré, Sakhé-devé däsé / Bharata däsa brahmacäré
/ Kani däsa brahmacäré / Gopéparäëadhana däsa brahmacäré / Lakñmaëa däsa
brahmacäré / Niçcinta däsa brahmacäré / Péyüñahänti däsa brahmacäré / Bhakta-jana
däsa brahmacäré / Munéçvara däsa brahmacäré / Ädi-kartä däsa brahmacäré /
Kailäsaccandra däsa brahmacäré / Mark Hains / Kuça-devé däsé, Ätmäräma /
Heräpaïcamé-devé däsé, Tära / Sukhé-devé däsé / Saàhäriëä-devé däsé / Bhakta William
/ Bhakta Steve / Bhakta Bob / Lélänanda däsa brahmacäré / Jyotir däsa / Aniruddha däsa
brahmacäré

Freedom from guilt.'Blame it on the rain'

The Reformers of the sixteenth century (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others) were revolted
by—and so revolted against—the Church's powerful institutionalized hierarchy. They
argued it had no support in the pages of the Bible. They cried out for freedom in the
Word of God from priest-enforced guilt, superstition and resignation. Thoughtful
Europeans, hoping Christianity would now be rid of the harsher consequences of the
Augustinian doctrine of Adam's original sin, were soon dismayed to discover that the
shedding of the Catholic snakeskin revealed a Protestant snake beneath. The Protestants
seemed just as unrelenting as the Catholics in laying down “guilt trips” upon the
populace: witch-hunts, heresy trials and public burning of supposed enemies of Christ.
In disgust, some intellectuals sought freedom from guilt in a different direction, one that
led away from the Bible. And so modern philosophy was born. In the seventeenth
century philosophers allied themselves with science. The hope of science was to make
reality controllable by reducing it to physics and mathematics.
From the dimensions of good and evil. By S.P disciple Suhotra Prabhu.

Can the Soul Desire to Leave Krsna or is he 'hard coded' to serve Krsna only.
Guru-krpa: . . . They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful,
there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in
the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is
it that one can become envious of Krsna in such conditions? This is a very . . .
Acyutananda: The original sin.
Sudama: Why we are envious.
Guru-krpa: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements
...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guru-krpa: How is it that . . .
Prabhupada: That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got
little independence, you can violate.

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Sudama: It is very hard to understand.
Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.
Acyutananda: It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand.
Prabhupada: Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but
you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel.

A little later in the same conversation:

Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse
that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our fall
down.
From the book the origin of the Jiva by Drutakarma Dasa.

Causeless unwillingness or Ignorance

By Çréla Prabhupäda’s grace, may Lord Sri Kåñëa’s philosophy be our solace, our guide,
and a source of enduring strength, patience and determination. As much as we take Çréla
Prabhupäda’s words into our hearts and realize them, that much will our present and
future circumstances improve, for it is our consciousness that determines the states of
being we shall attain.
Each of us is inconceivably fortunate because Kåñëa, our best friend, is on our side; He
wants us with Him. That we are not with Him is due only to our causeless unwillingness.
May our service to the Lord as a husband or a wife eradicate that causeless
unwillingness? - ISKCON Communication journal 9.1, September 2001

More on 'Causeless unwillingness'.

Dear Çréla Prabhupada, please accept our humble obeisance. We pray unto your lotus
feet to please bestow upon us just one drop of your mercy, so that we may have no
desire within our heart that is apart from yours. Purify us of all traces of self-motivation.
Then, accepting your order as our life and soul, perhaps we may be of some small
assistance in your tireless endeavor to shower the cooling moonlike rays of the lotus feet
of Lord Chaitanya and Lord Nityänanda upon the suffering humanity. This alone will bring
about ultimate relief of all miseries brought about by our "causeless unwillingness to
serve and love the Supreme."
Çréla Prabhupada, "Kåñëa is yours. You have the power to give Him to me. I am simply
running behind you shouting, 'Kåñëa, Kåñëa'"
All glories to Çréla Prabhupada!!
The devotees of Boston ISKCON
1976 Vyasa puja offerings to Srila Prabhupada by ISKCON Boston

The Other Famous Gaudiya Vaishnava Acaryas on 'Ignorance or the willful choice.'

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This material world is only the perverted reflection of the spiritual world. It is the
shadow, the abstraction, of the spiritual world which is the real substance. Our soul who
is a citizen of the spiritual world has somehow lost all real recollections of the substantive
world. But the features of the spiritual world are reflected in a distorted manner in this
material world. It is that very same world which is presented in this distorted and
unintelligible form by our present defective senses. The dormant soul itself is responsible
for this distortion. It is the inevitable result of the wrong use of the faculty of free reason
which the constituent principle of the soul. The soul is free to choose to serve the Truth.
It is equally free to follow the opposite course. The proper function of the free reason is
to serve the Truth, or in other words, to be prepared to recognize its natural limitations
and submit to the guidance of a higher reason whenever the latter makes its appearance.
The reason of fallen souls refused deliberately to recognize his own native littleness and
renounced the guidance of the higher reason. In fact, it set up for itself in order to build a
world of its own with its own partly resources. The present world is the result of this
disloyal activity. We have put our neck deliberately in to the noose that holds us fast in
its iron grip and the same original perversity still persists and prevents us from reverting
to our constitutional position. So long as this irrational perversity continues, we are
doomed to grope in ignorance and reap the reward of the wilful abuse of our free reason
in the form of this petty existence of sin and death.
-From the Book. The Erotic Principle and Unalloyed Principle by Shripada Narayanadasa
Bhaktisudhakar Prabhu (Srila Prabhupäda’s God brother from the Gaudiya Matha)

The OFFICIAL ISKCON OPINION - FROM THE ISKCON COMMUNICATIONS JOURNAL

JULY/DECEMBER 1996.
How has this effulgent, spiritual being called the soul become fettered to this world of
illusion, and forced to undergo the repetition of birth and death? Gauòéya Vaiñëavas
believe that we were once with Kåñëa, enjoying an eternal life full of knowledge and
bliss, but we abused that freedom, misjudged our strength and gave up that relationship
which was the very basis of our existence. Each of us made a willful decision to abandon
Kåñëa and instantly plummeted downwards. Imprisoned in material existence from a
time immemorial, we can neither recall our original sin nor easily find the means to
expurgate it. This is hell, though certainly there are regions darker than this. Yet the term
of our imprisonment need not be eternal. Our bondage will cease when the sins that
continue to stain our consciousness are entirely removed. Until then, the soul must
continue to transmigrate.
***************

**********Akd's replies in blue************

From: Bhushan Kotnis, Date: Saturday, August 28, 2010, 10:26 PM

Hare Krishna
Dear Akincana Krishna Prabhu
Please accept my humble obeisance

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Thank you so much for your email and also for your very good insights. Well to be very
honest, my job has started to become more intense over few days. ( I graduated and
have now started working). As a result my spiritual practice is suffering and as a result of
that my intelligence is clouded. So I was unable to fully go through the viewpoints
presented. I tried reading the Vedanta Sutra by Shripada Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana, and it
was interesting, but I couldn’t really study it a deliberate on it, so I just have some
superficial understanding. My experience in studying the Sastras is that it is only by purity
and clarity of mind; I can actually understand and appreciate the Sastras. I don’t have
enough of that right now, so if I try to put forward some point, it will be mostly out of
some fanatic sentiment.
So in the last mail I was too mentally exhausted to put forward any more comprehensive
thoughts, so I just shared the two lines by HH Radhanath Swami.
But I will be quitting this job in about 2 months, and will catch up with my spiritual
practices, which will bring forth clarity of thought. But I thank you very much for sharing
the writings of Shrila Baladeva Vidyäbhüsana, I had never read what he had to say and
thanks to you I got exposed to his writings.

Now I have to rush to help the Janmashtami festival sound system. HH Jayadvaita Swami
will be in the Q&A booth, it will be interesting....
Thanks a lot,
Your servant
Bhushan

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