564-Pages of Transcripts in Case 17-CRS-050340

COA P18-623
15B JUDICIAL DISTRICT
North Carolina Court of Appeals

DANIEL M. HORNE JR., Clerk
Fax: (919) 831-3615 Court of Appeals Building Mailing Address:
Web: https://www.nccourts.gov One West Morgan Street P. O. Box 2779
Raleigh, NC 27601 Raleigh, NC 27602
(919) 831-3600
From Orange
( 17-CRS-050340 )
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA from Orange County
No. P18-623
v.
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA
V NAPIER SANDFORD FULLER, No. 17-CRS-050340

NAPIER SANDFORD FULLER
Appellant in propriaApersona.
MENDED ORDER
The following order was entered:
The motion filed in this cause on the 3rd of October 2018 and designated 'Motion for Extension of
Time for Court Reporter to PrepareMOTION TOisSUBMIT
Transcripts' allowed. TRANSCRIPTS
Transcript shall be prepared and delivered on or
BY THE COURT IMPOSED DEADLINE OF AUGUST 2, 2019
before 3 December 2018.
By order of the Court this the 4th of October 2018.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this the 4th day of October 2018.
TO THE HONORABLE JUDGES OF THE NC APPEALS COURT:
This motion is in response to this Court’s order regarding the deadline for the
transcipts for the State v Fuller dispute, 17-CRS-050340. The self-represented Defendant-
Daniel referred
Appellant, Napier Sandford Fuller, (hereafter M. Horneto Jr.
as “Mr. Fuller” for narrative1)
Clerk, North Carolina Court of Appeals
respectfully petitions this Court, that he has furfilled the task: attached are some $3,000
worth of transcipts totalling more than 600 pages. Mr. Fuller has previsouly provided them
Copy to:
Napier Sandfor Fuller, For Napier Sandford Fuller
to the State
Mr. Peter A. Regulski, for review
Assistant Attorneyand provides
General, themofto
For State ensure
North complaince with the deadline. Mr.
Carolina
Mr. Blake M. Courlang
Attorney General, ForisState
Fulller awareof North Carolina
that only portions relevant to arguments for legal review shall be quoted
Hon. James C. Stanford, Clerk of Superior Court
in the perfected docket. Finally, Mr. makes note that many errors exist in the attached
1 i.e., Mr. Fuller has a dual role as both Defendant and Plaintiff involving of the same parties in state
and federal courts. Mr. Fuller is the federal Plaintiff in Fuller v Holt et al., 7:18-cv-00069-FL (19-01110,
19−01306, et seq.). Mr. Fuller is the criminal defendant in State v Fuller, 17-CRS-050340.
transcipts: the parties will endeavor to get the court reporters to correct all errors in the
quoted portions.
Mr. Fuller has raised, and continues to raise the issue of “reasonable
accommodations” in hopes that he may finally receive due process, equal access, and a
fair hearing in the state courts of justice so as to avoid retaliation, bias, and discrimination
based upon the symptoms of his before-mentioned impairments.
Mr. Fuller has invoked his right to a speedy adjudication yet he urges the ADA
accomodations are establsihed by a fair and neutral process that will comply with the
ADA: this Court has rejected the verbatim request for ADA accomodations already
approved by the 4th Circuit, such is it’s discretionary ability. Mr. Fuller strong urges that this
Court invest determining a fair process to resolve this dispute: as the case is now in its 4th
year, Mr. Fuller can wait a bit longer.
The above statements of fact are true and correct to the best of my ability, and made
under penalty of perjury this 2nd day of August 2019. Naturally, legal arguments are not
“statements of fact,” but opinions.
N. S. FULLER, ESQ. 2
Defendant–Appellant In Propria Persona
2201 Lynnwood Drive
Wilmington NC 28403-8026
Post Office Box 7901
Wilmington NC 28406-7901
910.262.2359
napier@alum.mit.edu
2 Mr. Fuller a self-represented party. In an effort to maintain a respectful tone in legal pleadings and to avoid bias
against pro se parties, he has chosen the third-person in drafting pleadings and signs “Esquire” as a mark of formality. Mr.
Fuller has lived in the UK for many years and is an “Esquire” under the original English meaning represents a lower rank
in the nobility. A District Court judge in Orange County made a formal complaint to the NC Bar trying to prohibit Mr.
Fuller from using this term; the dispute was resolved in favor of Mr. Fuller. However, should this court instruct Mr. Fuller
to cease using “Esquire,” he will comply without argument.
2
IN THE NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL COURT OF JUSTICE
SUPERIOR COURT DIVISION
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

)
versus ) Orange County
) 17 CRS 50340
NAPIER SANDERFORD FULLER, )
Defendant. )
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
TRANSCRIPT
Wednesday, July 11, 2018
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Transcript of proceedings in the General Court of

Justice, Superior Court Division, Orange County, North
Carolina, at the July 11, 2018 Session, before the Honorable
Michael L. Robinson, Judge Presiding.
APPEARANCES:
Blake Courlang
Assistant District Attorney
144 East Margaret Lane
Hillsborough, NC 27278
on behalf of the State
Napier Sanderford Fuller, pro se
Wilmington, North Carolina
on behalf of the Defendant
James Stanford
Orange County Clerk of Superior Court
David E. Jester, CVR-M

Court Reporting Manager
229 Kinton Drive
Fuquay-Varina, NC 27526
State v Napier Fuller • Orange County 17 CRS 50340
Index Page 2
Wednesday, July 11, 2018 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Argument by Mr. Fuller . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6, 14

Argument by Mr. Courlang . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
Argument by Mr. Stanford . . . . . . . . . . . . 10, 19
Recess . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
Certification of Transcript . . . . . . . . . . . . 32
DAVID E. JESTER, CVR-M

COURT REPORTING MANAGER
Index Page 3
1 (The Court convened in the matter of the
2 State of North Carolina versus Napier
3 Sanderford Fuller, Orange County case 17
4 CRS 50340, at 10:00 AM on Wednesday, July
5 11, 2018. All parties were present.)
6 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentleman.
7 We are here this morning about 17 CRS 50340, State of
8 North Carolina versus Napier Sanderford Fuller. If you are
9 involved in that matter, if you would please come forward.
10 All right. Let me ask: is there anyone here on behalf
11 of either the Clerk of Superior Court or the District
12 Attorney’s Office?
13 MR. STANFORD: Good morning, Your Honor. My name
14 is James Stanford. I am in fact the Elected Clerk of
15 Superior Court here in Orange County.
16 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
17 MR. COURLANG: Good morning, Your Honor. I’m
18 Blake Courlang, and I am the Assistant District Attorney
19 prosecuting the criminal matter.
20 THE COURT: All right, sir. Well, if you would
21 have a seat.
22 MR. COURLANG: Thank you, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
24 And Mr. Fuller, I assume you are here pro se this
25 morning?

Index Page 4
1 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.
3 All right. Let me say, as a housekeeping detail,
4 first----
5 MR. FULLER: That’s the same document that should
6 have been subpoenaed.
7 THE COURT: All right. The Court has received and
8 reviewed the document entitled “Defendant’s request for a
9 temporary restraining order, an immediate hearing, and a
10 preliminary injunction.” And I see that a file-stamped copy
11 dated today— showing that it was filed today at
12 approximately— is that 9:40?
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 And then there is also an additional document entitled,
16 “Defendant’s request for a discovery pursuant to
17 Constitutional guarantees,” that is apparently dated July 11
18 and was filed on July 11 at approximately 9:41 AM. Is that
19 correct?
20 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor. That’s correct.
21 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, the Court is
22 prepared to hear the Defendant’s request for a temporary
23 restraining order, an immediate hearing, and a preliminary
24 injunction. And let me just ask: has the District
25 Attorney’s Office been served with both of those documents?

Index Page 5
1 MR. COURLANG: I was just served with this as I
2 walked in the courtroom about five minutes ago. I do have a
3 copy of it.
4 THE COURT: Okay. It’s my understanding that the
5 District Attorney’s Office was notified yesterday afternoon
6 that this motion was being filed, that is the Defendant’s
7 request for a temporary restraining order, an immediate
8 hearing, and a preliminary injunction. Whether you were you
9 formally served with document or not, did you receive it
10 yesterday?
11 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. I’m aware of
12 this, and I’m prepared.
13 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.
14 All right. And Mr. Stanford, are you represented by
15 counsel in this matter?
16 MR. STANFORD: I am not, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I am aware that there is a
18 federal lawsuit going on in which Mr. Fuller is the named
19 plaintiff and you are one of several named defendants. You
20 have counsel representing you in that matter. Is that
21 correct?
22 MR. STANFORD: That is correct, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right. Without getting into the
24 substance of any communications, is your counsel in that
25 action aware of the filing of this motion?

Argument by Mr. Fuller Page 6
1 MR. STANFORD: Yes, he is. Mr. Fuller made him
2 aware.
3 THE COURT: Okay. And he chose not to be here
4 this morning?
5 MR. STANFORD: That’s correct, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
7 All right. Mr. Fuller, I’ll be happy to hear from you.
8 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor. I really appreciate
9 being heard on such quick notice.
10 Just a little background of this case. We’ve already
11 been through a District Court trial, and in that District
12 Court trial, I had to deal with the Clerk’s Office in
13 getting the subpoenas. And I guess it’s somewhat unusual to
14 have a pro se criminal defense because we had a lot of
15 difficulties in getting those documents last year. It was,
16 to be specific, July 20th, 2017 was the court case.
17 And we went back and forth, and eventually I kind of
18 gave in and allowed him to see the names and the fully
19 filled out documents well in advance, approximately a month
20 before the court case. That ended up being, I think, a very
21 bad strategic mistake, because when I came in— everyone was
22 to arrive at 9:00 AM, and then the University of North
23 Carolina, who I was up against, and their mass of lawyers
24 arranged after— in other words, no one had ever contested
25 the subpoenas ahead of the deadline when people were

1 supposed to show up. At 2:00 PM the same day, UNC’s
2 attorneys had every single one of them quashed. So I walked
3 in, and we immediately went to trial.
4 So I was extremely upset at the way that occurred, and
5 so, you know, I basically went to trial without any
6 witnesses at all. They were just all turned down. They’d
7 all been duly served, and that quashing motion occurred
8 after the date at which they would appear. And I was just
9 outraged by that.
10 And so that’s kind of the background. And then we have
11 this federal lawsuit about the ADA accommodations.
12 And so I want these to be issued by the book, and the
13 law is very clear. I just— I’m surprised we’re having a
14 debate. Look at page 13, I have in huge letters what the
15 law states. It says they have to be issued blank.
16 And the reason for that, when you read the School of
17 Government’s essays, is specifically to avoid conflicts of
18 interest such as this in which I can tip off the whole
19 defense strategy if the State is allowed to see exactly who
20 I’m subpoenaing and what documents. They’ve had a month in
21 advance and knows the exact defense strategy, and they can,
22 of course, change their argument. And so that’s why I’m— I
23 am so keen on not revealing that.
24 And it could seem like a lot, 145, but considering I
25 always want to have a duplicate original. And people

Page 8
1 disappear, and some are— I assume we’re probably going to
2 lose one. We’ve had people deny that they had gotten them.
3 So it’s basically, I’m only going for about 50, and then of
4 course to have some that are going to be run through the
5 computer by mistake.
6 So it’s really not the quantity. I understand there’s
7 been some objections, but the point is the law doesn’t make
8 any limit to quantity, that there’s certainly a time and
9 place that people who object to subpoenas can bring that
10 before the Court, but I think Rule 45 is pretty clear, and I
11 would like the blank subpoenas signed.
12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir.
13 Yes, sir. Would you give me your name again? I
14 apologize I didn’t write it down.
15 MR. COURLANG: Yes, it’s Blake. First name,
16 that’s B-L-A-K-E.
17 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
18 MR. COURLANG: Last name is Courlang, C-O-U-R-L-A-
19 N-G.
20 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Courlang, I’ll be
21 happy to hear from you.
22 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State has no
23 objection to the Defendant’s issuing subpoenas. That
24 happens quite often in criminal cases. From the State’s
25 perspective, in our District Attorney’s Office, we typically

Page 9
1 have no involvement with a defendant issuing subpoenas. So
2 I’m not quite sure if we can have anything to state an
3 objection or consent to that particular matter.
4 So long as Mr. Fuller follows the law, the State has no
5 objection to him issuing subpoenas for records, for people
6 to testify. That is not in, we believe, the District
7 Attorney’s domain. We think this is a matter between the
8 process of how Mr. Fuller’s asking for subpoenas and the
9 Clerk of Court. Typically, we are not involved in that
10 process. I don’t have a lot to say as a result of that.
11 In regards to any motions to quash, those can be done
12 at trial. That’s not— this is not the place to be heard at
13 that moment. We just ask that Mr. Fuller do comply with the
14 correct process in the statute and the policies of the court
15 and Mr. Stanford’s office.
16 THE COURT: All right. So let me ask you a couple
17 questions, if I may. And I’m grateful for your argument, as
18 I was for Mr. Fuller’s explanation of his position.
19 I come from a civil background and have limited
20 criminal experience. In the civil arena, when a subpoena is
21 issued and service is attempted under Rule 45, the party
22 issuing a subpoena is required to give the opposing party in
23 a civil litigation notice that a subpoena has been issued.
24 That’s expressly a part of Rule 45. Okay? Does that
25 procedure also apply in criminal cases?

Argument by Mr. Stanford Page 10
1 MR. COURLANG: If I can have a moment to confer
2 with Mr. Stanford.
3 MR. STANFORD: Your Honor, I can answer that
4 question, and the answer is clearly no. Under Chapter 15A,
5 which makes reference to subpoenas being issued, in a
6 criminal case, it clear excepts under both portions of the
7 statute the requirement that the opposing counsel, that is
8 the opposing side be served with the notice that that
9 subpoena has been served. So in a criminal setting, it does
10 not apply.
11 THE COURT: Okay. So to the extent that Mr.
12 Fuller would like to keep confidential, at least from the
13 District Attorney’s Office, who he is subpoenaing, Chapter
14 15A would help him in that regard if he were to permitted
15 provide to the Clerk’s Office blank subpoenas for execution
16 by the Clerk.
17 MR. STANFORD: That’s correct, Your Honor. He’s
18 been— that offer has been made to Mr. Fuller three times
19 now. And I want to correct— unless my memory does not serve
20 me correctly, he made reference to subpoenas served by me in
21 the District Court matter. I don’t ever recall issuing any
22 subpoenas on Mr. Fuller’s behalf in that setting. I could
23 be wrong.
24 But what I have offered to Mr. Fuller three times via
25 e-mail after his demands was that, if he would provide me

1 145 subpoenas, blank except for what Rule 45 requires, under
2 Rule 45(a) which is the title of the action, the name of the
3 court in which the action is pending, the number of the
4 civil action — — which, of course, would be a criminal
5 action in our setting — — and the name of the party at whose
6 instance the witness is summoned. That would be Mr. Fuller;
7 not who he subpoenaed, but him. He’s the one requesting it.
8 And then it goes on to say, “Command each person to whom
9 it’s directed to attend, give testimony, produce for
10 inspection copy of designated records and so forth, and the
11 protections of the person subject to subpoenas under
12 subsection (c) of the rule and the requirements for
13 responses under subsection (d).
14 All that, of course, is in the AOC form subpoenas, on
15 the back page. So Mr. Fuller has never been requested to
16 provide to the Clerk’s Office anything other than what Rule
17 45(a) requires be in a subpoena before a Clerk’s Office will
18 issue it. I never asked him for names, addresses. I could
19 care less, Your Honor, to be honest with you.
20 THE COURT: All right, sir.
21 MR. STANFORD: His request to me, if I might, was
22 that I was to prepare 145 pages, blank, signed by me; put
23 them in an envelope with an invoice and mail it to him. I
24 have never done that, Your Honor, for him or anybody else.
25 As the Clerk of Superior Court, I do not think that’s my

Page 12
1 responsibility.
2 And so when he suggests that you that he wants to keep
3 his information about the folks that he’s subpoenaing or the
4 documents that he wants produced, I have never asked for
5 that information. Not once.
6 THE COURT: Thank you. Let me----
7 MR. STANFORD: And Your Honor, if I might
8 interject again just very briefly.
9 THE COURT: Sure.
10 MR. STANFORD: When you say civil is your
11 background, I quite frankly don’t understand how a temporary
12 restraining order applies under the Rules of Civil Procedure
13 in a criminal matter. That doesn’t make any sense to me.
14 THE COURT: Well, I understand your position, and
15 I’m grateful for your argument.
16 I promise you I will give you an opportunity to
17 respond. I have a couple questions for the Clerk.
18 I have read Rule 45 carefully. I have practiced with
19 it for 35 years. I am unaware of any case law that says
20 that, before Mr. Fuller presents the subpoena to you, he
21 must insert the title of the action, the name of the court
22 in which the action is pending, the name of the party who is
23 responsible for summoning the witnesses. Can you cite to me
24 any case law from North Carolina Appellate Courts— let me
25 finish my question.

Page 13
1 MR. STANFORD: I beg your pardon, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I won’t interrupt you, and you don’t
3 interrupt me. Okay?
4 MR. STANFORD: Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: Are you aware of any case law that
6 says that words “in blank” mean anything other than that he
7 presents to you 145 copies of the AOC form G-100 revised as
8 of February 2018 for you to sign?
9 MR. STANFORD: The answer to your question, Your
10 Honor, is no, I’m not aware of any case law to that effect.
11 THE COURT: All right, sir. And therefore, if the
12 Court were to order you, upon presentation by Mr. Fuller of
13 145 AOC form G-100's to sign, would you agree with me that,
14 based on your understanding of the case law, you have no
15 authority to deny his request for your signature on that
16 document?
17 MR. STANFORD: I would respectfully object and say
18 that a complete reading of Rule 45— I think that, taking
19 subparagraph (d) my itself out of context in Rule 45— I’m
20 sorry, subsection (a)(4) out of context and simply removing
21 from the rest of the rule, where the rule says, “Every
22 subpoena shall state all of the following,” would not be a
23 clear reading— or a correct reading of Rule 45.
24 THE COURT: Well, sir, doesn’t it say in 45(a)(4)
25 that he shall complete it before service?

1 MR. STANFORD: I agree with that, sir, but in Rule
2 45(a) says, “A subpoena shall state all of the following.”
3 I have never in my 17 years issued one completely blank. I
4 have always required that, at the very least the file number
5 be in it and the title of the action so that the person
6 that’s given the subpoena will at least know what’s going
7 on.
8 THE COURT: All right, sir. Anything further?
9 MR. STANFORD: Not at this time, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
11 Mr. Fuller, anything further from you?
12 MR. FULLER: Yes, I would object, just on the
13 comments. Looking at page 15 of the motion, before you, you
14 will see there is clearly, in the communication by Mr.
15 Stanford sent to me on the 9th, he states very clearly, he
16 demands— and I quote, “The command of the person to whom
17 it’s directed.” So he definitely wants the names. It’s
18 very clear in his e-mail to me. He might now have come off
19 of it in the last few days, but that was the last
20 communication.
21 And I will also say, getting into the philosophy of law
22 here, the school case started off as three different
23 charges. I’ve already won two of them with a sua sponte
24 where we’ve had judgments that were reversed. So it is
25 possible that— and that’s still being litigated, that the

Page 15
1 name of this case could switch to the old one that’s already
2 been dismissed.
3 It’s very confusing because, in this, if you’re
4 looking, you’ll find five different judgments for the two
5 cases.
6 THE COURT: All right. It’s my understanding, Mr.
7 Courlang that the file number under which Mr. Fuller is
8 being prosecuted presently is 17 CRS 50340, correct?
9 MR. COURLANG: That’s correct.
10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, Mr. Stanford,
11 as the Clerk, raises a point that he believes it is
12 necessary for you to at least insert the name of the case
13 and the case number that is at issue so that, when he signs
14 the subpoenas that you present to him, he will know which
15 case he is signing subpoenas in. Do you understand that to
16 be his argument?
17 MR. FULLER: Right. I understand it’s his latest
18 argument, but the argument stated on 15 is a lot more
19 earnest.
20 THE COURT: But I’m limiting my question of you to
21 those two points.
22 MR. FULLER: Yes.
23 THE COURT: That is the name of the court in which
24 the action is pending, sir, you would insert on the subpoena
25 form— and do you have— you say you’ve had subpoenas issued

Page 16
1 previously.
2 MR. FULLER: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Are you familiar with the AOC form?
4 MR. FULLER: Yes, I am.
5 THE COURT: Okay. So you know that, at the top
6 left, it has a blank for the county to be inserted, correct?
7 And for the file number on the top right to be inserted.
8 And then the names of the parties— that would be, “The State
9 of North Carolina versus,” and then your name would be the
10 defendant, correct?
11 MR. FULLER: Sure, sure. I mean yes, Your Honor.
12 And I should add I have also had, until just a few
13 months ago, a judicial authority in the State of North
14 Carolina, as far as I was vice chairman of the Board of
15 Adjustments. And so I would issue subpoenas for the City
16 and all of that. So I’m quite familiar and willing to
17 adhere strictly to the law. I would just like it to be
18 followed to the letter, and I think that Rule 45— I think
19 it’s very clear.
20 And I would just add that I feel like I’m a student-to-
21 professor that he wants to review my work. There’ll be
22 another time for someone else to review it. It’s not his
23 job to practice law and double-check all this. It’s my
24 responsibility.
25 THE COURT: Yes, sir. But I’m asking you a more

Page 17
1 practical question. That is: do you have any objection to a
2 court order that would direct him to sign subpoenas that do
3 not identify the person being subpoenaed----
4 MR. FULLER: I do not object to having the caption
5 of the case. I don’t have a problem with that.
6 THE COURT: All right. And it is my
7 understanding, Mr. Courlang that the present intent of the
8 District Attorney’s Office is to try this case, this matter
9 during the week of August 6. That is just less than a month
10 from now. Is that correct?
11 MR. COURLANG: That is correct.
12 THE COURT: All right. So this is not a vain
13 effort. That is it is you intention as you appear before
14 the Court today, and you can tell Mr. Fuller that your
15 intention is to call this matter for trial during the week
16 of August 6?
17 MR. COURLANG: That is correct.
18 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
19 Mr. Stanford, I understand your concern that (a) you’re
20 not a copy service, that is you’re not supposed to create
21 145 pieces of paper to sign; and (b) you are not supposed
22 to— or you’re not required to mail those with an invoice to
23 Mr. Fuller. The Court understands and agrees with that
24 position.
25 If Mr. Fuller provides you with 145 AOC form G-100's

Page 18
1 that has the case caption filled out and the date for the
2 party to appear, August 6th, and the time for the party to
3 appear but leaves— yes, sir.
4 MR. FULLER: I’ve already requested a motion for a
5 continuance. We’re already— I wouldn’t want the date to be
6 in there. It’s my position that we should wait for the
7 federal issues to be resolved about accommodation. And it’s
8 very difficult for the State not to grant them because—
9 these other judges that are being sued, and so the State’s
10 official position is, even though I qualify for ADA
11 accommodations, they’re not going to give them to me because
12 they have absolute immunity, which I think is a bizarre
13 argument.
14 So I’ve already asked for a continuance, and I expect,
15 if it’s not granted, to ask the Federal Court to issue an
16 injunction in this regard. If there’s a trial, I’m going to
17 have to have the accommodations.
18 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Fuller, the matter in front
19 of me today for hearing is your request that you be provided
20 Mr. Stanford or one of his assistant’s signatures on 145
21 subpoenas for a trial that is scheduled on August 6th. If
22 you do not want subpoenas for August 6th signed by Mr.
23 Stanford for people to appear for trial, then I don’t know
24 why we’re here.
25 MR. FULLER: If I may just respond to that.

1 THE COURT: Yes, sir. If you’ll please stand when
2 you’re addressing the Court. Thank you.
3 MR. FULLER: Yes. So there’s two types of
4 subpoenas, same form. We’re going to be going for document
5 subpoenas and witness subpoenas. So documents, obviously,
6 have to come in earlier because I have to have a chance to
7 review them all. And so this becomes sort of a difficulty.
8 So what happens in reality is someone, if you could
9 pick a date— and that’s why I don’t want the date in there.
10 Someone will say, “Well, I’m in Italy, and I can’t be
11 there.” And you know, there might be a continuance, and so
12 that it just— the last thing I want— I’m happy to have the
13 captions, but I don’t want the date because it can shift
14 around constantly.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Understood.
16 Yes, sir.
17 MR. STANFORD: Sir, I have never objected to him
18 putting a date in, a place, or a time to appear. That has
19 never been an issue, and I don’t think it needs to be an
20 issue. I’m simply trying to comply with Rule 45, Your
21 Honor, and I think, if you look at the form, all of what’s
22 in here except the title of the action, the name of the
23 court in which its pending, the number in our case of the
24 criminal action, and the name of the party at whose instance
25 the witness is summoned is all that needs to be put in the

1 subpoena; and I will issue it.
2 When he talks about the individual that’s, “Command
3 each person to whom its directed attend,” that’s boilerplate
4 and— I know you’re familiar with it, but I’m just pointing
5 out that that’s a boilerplate to the person that he puts the
6 name into. I’m not asking for the name. I’m not asking for
7 the date and time or place to appear. I’m simply asking for
8 him to comply with Rule 45 in its entirety before I issue in
9 blank otherwise.
10 THE COURT: All right, sir. And you understand
11 that the issue that the Court is struggling with is: the
12 Court respectfully does not believe, under its reading of
13 Rule 45(a), that he is required to do that. Some of that he
14 may be willing to do voluntarily, and I understand from Mr.
15 Fuller, in an attempt to accommodate your concerns, he is
16 more than happy to include the caption of the case. But
17 beyond that, he asks that you sign the subpoenas in blank.
18 And the Court is inclined to order you to do so.
19 MR. STANFORD: I understand that, Your Honor, but
20 again, how— how can it possibly be that Rule 45 requires an
21 attorney or a judge or a clerk to comply with the outlined
22 portions of 45 and include the title of the action and the
23 name of the parties and so forth, and then when you have a
24 pro se say, “No, that’s fine. All you’ve got to do is sign
25 it.” I don’t understand how that could be the law.

Page 21
1 And I understand I’ve already said to Your Honor
2 there’s no case law on it. I can tell you, amongst the
3 Clerks, my colleagues, this has always been a concern
4 because this is a fishing expedition. I don’t have to
5 explain this to Your Honor. But that’s not my
6 responsibility.
7 I’ve always thought, though, if I’m issuing a subpoena,
8 at the very least, I needed the caption of the action and
9 the file number. And that’s all I’ve asked Mr. Fuller for
10 three times over.
11 THE COURT: Okay. And----
12 MR. STANFORD: I’m more than willing to do that,
13 Your Honor. You don’t have to order me to do that, quite
14 frankly. But if you do so, of course, I respect Your
15 Honor’s wishes.
16 THE COURT: Thank you. All right.
17 And I assume that Mr. Fuller understands— you used the
18 term “fishing expedition.” I’m sure Mr. Fuller is aware
19 that there may be a later day of reckoning if some later
20 court — — not this Court — — determines that subpoenas have
21 been misused by him to harass or otherwise cause people to
22 go to needless burden and expense. And I’m sure you’re
23 aware of that.
24 So— all right. Is there anything further about this
25 motion that we need to address today?

Page 22
1 MR. STANFORD: Your Honor, if I just might briefly
2 add, you know, I’ve had pro se’s approach me in the past — —
3 not Mr. Fuller — — and ask me to issue subpoenas when there
4 wasn’t a pending action. Reading (a)(4) just as Your Honor
5 interpreted that, that really is a fishing expedition. I
6 just add that, you know, for your consideration, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Yes, sir. But my understanding is
8 that Mr. Fuller has agreed, and my order will disclose and
9 document that he has agreed in open court to insert the
10 caption of the case, so it will be clear that, at the time
11 he has signed it, that there is a pending action that you
12 are signing a subpoena on his behalf.
13 MR. STANFORD: I understand, Your Honor, and not
14 to beat a dead horse. If he’d have just agreed to do that,
15 we’d not be wasting your time, my time, Mr. Courlang’s time,
16 or Mr. Fuller’s time.
17 THE COURT: And----
18 MR. STANFORD: He wants to act like he knows what
19 he’s doing. He’s had appointed attorneys who he then----
20 THE COURT: I’m going to review the file, Mr.
21 Stanford. Thank you. I don’t think that ground needs to be
22 re-plowed today. What I do think— yes, sir.
23 Mr. Courlang, go ahead.
24 MR. COURLANG: I’m sorry.
25 THE COURT: No. You don’t need to apologize.

Page 23
1 MR. COURLANG: I do apologize though. I’m a bit
2 of a fish out of water here. This is not typically what I
3 do. But I do want to just put on the record and be clear
4 with Mr. Fuller that the District Attorney’s Office is not
5 requesting the names. We’re not inspecting subpoenas. We
6 have never done that in the past, and we’re not going to
7 start doing it now.
8 So if that’s what Mr. Fuller is worried about, our
9 office is not requesting the names, not requesting anything
10 about the subpoenas. We’re prepared to go to trial.
11 THE COURT: Thank you.
12 And Mr. Fuller, I want to make sure you understand
13 that, when you get my order, you understand my thinking on
14 it. Mr. Stanford, in my opinion— and I’m the one with a
15 black robe on today, so I guess my opinion may count for
16 more, at least until a higher court tells me I’m wrong, than
17 anybody else in the courtroom. As I read your e-mail, your
18 e-mail asked Mr. Stanford or his office to print out 145
19 pieces of paper, to sign them, and to mail them to you with
20 a bill. As Mr. Stanford pointed out to me during his
21 remarks, I don’t believe he’s required to do that.
22 So I want to make sure you understand that the order
23 I’m going to enter will require Mr. Stanford to sign
24 subpoenas that you have created, that provide the caption of
25 the case— yes, sir.

Page 24
1 MR. STANFORD: Yes, and it would be the greatest
2 joy of my life if this could possibly be done today.
3 Understand that I drove three hours to get here, and so this
4 is very difficult. I live quite far away, but I would love
5 for this done. I have a draft order— the last page, and you
6 can change it however you’d like. But I would love to be
7 able to go over to the library and copy these and go ahead
8 and go home with them today.
9 THE COURT: Well, it is the Court’s intention, as
10 long as my technological skills do not fail me, to go back
11 into chambers after we’re through here today and to finalize
12 a draft order I’ve been working on and to provide it to the
13 Clerk in the next several hours so that it can be of record.
14 And it will, in essence, say what I’ve just said to you,
15 that is that, upon presentation by you of a hundred and
16 however many subpoenas, forms filled out with the caption of
17 the case, that Mr. Stanford is directed to sign those.
18 He is a very busy person, and I’m not going to order
19 him to drop everything else he’s doing to immediately sign
20 the subpoenas, but he has a reputation for being an
21 efficient and hardworking servant for the State of North
22 Carolina, I believe, and I fully expect that he will, in an
23 attempt to reasonably accommodate you, either personally
24 sign them or have an assistant sign them this afternoon so
25 that you may return to your home with the subpoenas in hand.

Page 25
1 Is that a reasonable expectation, Mr. Clerk?
2 MR. STANFORD: Yes, Your Honor. That’s always
3 been my expectation. I have no problem with a reasonable
4 request. That seems to me to be a reasonable request and
5 instruction from the Court.
6 I would, however, make sure that Mr. Fuller provides me
7 with the form, front and back, duplex, or two pages. I
8 believe it’s a two-page form. Because that information, of
9 course, is required by Rule 45 that’s on the back.
10 THE COURT: Right.
11 MR. STANFORD: In the past, he’s suggested I just
12 do the front, and he would attach a second page. And I’m
13 just looking for clarification that I would get 145 duplex
14 subpoenas for my signature.
15 THE COURT: I do not think that’s an unreasonable
16 request. If you want to use this blank one.
17 MR. FULLER: That would be fantastic, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Is that acceptable to you, Mr.
19 Stanford?
20 MR. STANFORD: Absolutely, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. The Bailiff will hand this to
22 you. I just printed off what I believed to be— if you all
23 will review that to make sure that I’m— you and Mr. Stanford
24 make sure that I haven’t given an outdated or incorrect
25 copy.

Page 26
1 MR. STANFORD: Your Honor, just for the record,
2 I’m actually on the Forms Committee with the AOC, so I’m
3 very familiar with this form. And all the other forms.
4 Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: Okay. So it’s the February ‘18—
6 February 2018 version, is that the latest version?
7 MR. STANFORD: That’s my understanding, Your
8 Honor. I don’t believe there’s been any changes to it since
9 then.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 All right. Mr. Fuller, while we’re all together, is
12 there any clarification you need from Mr. Stanford or nuts-
13 and-bolts procedural things that you need?
14 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor. You brought up an
15 excellent question, if I may. And again, I’m pro se, but
16 another problem we had: in the District Court trial, I
17 issued a valid subpoena for the arrest tapes. There were
18 five police cars. I was held up at gunpoint, and I really
19 wanted to show this. The New Hanover County Sheriff, of
20 course, doesn’t want to, and even though there is a valid
21 subpoena for those documents, they refuse to give it. And I
22 was extremely upset because I came into court expecting to
23 have it, nobody shows up and doesn’t have the documents.
24 And so— but my question is: what happens when people
25 disobey? Because I was very upset, and I brought that to

Page 27
1 the judge’s attention, but then no action was taken.
2 THE COURT: Well, I— let me say to you that I
3 can’t comment on what another judge may or may not have
4 done.
5 MR. FULLER: Right.
6 THE COURT: I believe, if you look at the back of
7 the subpoena form, it provides information to the person
8 receiving the subpoena about what their obligations are.
9 MR. FULLER: Great.
10 THE COURT: And I assume that, if you believe an
11 individual has been ordered by subpoena to produce records
12 that they do not provide, that you will promptly bring that
13 to the Court’s attention for the courts to deal with. Okay?
15 THE COURT: But that’s not my role here today. My
16 role is to deal with the motion that you filed— well, that I
17 became aware of yesterday regarding your request that Mr.
18 Stanford sign and provide to you subpoenas. Okay?
20 MR. STANFORD: Your Honor, I don’t think it would
21 be an unreasonable request, if Mr. Fuller would like to
22 retrieve these today, if he’d like to go ahead and insert
23 today’s date with my signature, that would save me the time
24 of having to date them and accommodate him even further.
25 And if he’d like to check the box that says “Clerk of

Page 28
1 Superior Court,” I will sign every one of them.
2 MR. FULLER: Sounds great.
3 THE COURT: All right. That’s great.
4 All right. Is there anything else we need to deal with
5 about this issue today?
6 MR. COURLANG: Nothing from the State, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, with respect
8 to the other motion regarding discovery that the Court has
9 not reviewed, my suggestion to you is that you— I don’t know
10 how things get calendared in criminal court. I have a hard
11 enough time keeping my control of my civil docket and
12 scheduling things. So I just encourage you— the Court is
13 declining to consider that. It’s my understanding it was
14 filed just a few moments ago.
15 MR. FULLER: Sure.
16 THE COURT: And you should take whatever action
17 you believe is necessary to get that before a judge to
18 consider your requests as contained in that document. Okay?
19 MR. FULLER: Sure.
20 THE COURT: All right. Is there anything further,
21 gentlemen, before we adjourn?
22 MR. STANFORD: Nothing from the Clerk’s Office,
23 Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: I am grateful to all of you for being
25 today. I will provide a signed, written order regarding

Page 29
1 this matter in the next several hours. And Mr. Fuller, you
2 should check with the Clerk’s Office about that.
3 Let me just ask out of an abundance of caution. I
4 reviewed hurriedly this morning the file, and I noted that,
5 at some point, a no-contact type order was entered either by
6 Judge Baddour or Judge Holt or somebody indicating that Mr.
7 Fuller should not have direct contact with the DA’s Office
8 or any judges or— and maybe even the Clerk’s Office. Has
9 that been, you know, upended so that— I don’t want to direct
10 Mr. Fuller to come see you if that’s going to be in
11 violation of some other judge’s order?
12 MR. COURLANG: Correct, Your Honor. That has been
13 amended by Judge Smith, I believe, in May, and Mr. Fuller
14 can contact me at the DA’s Office. I believe he’s allowed
15 to contact the Clerk’s Office only for— to file lawful
16 motions, not to annoy, threaten, or harass.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 MR. STANFORD: That’s my understanding of Judge
19 Smith’s order as well. It was modified slightly to say that
20 Mr. Fuller could file documents with the Clerk’s Office and
21 could communicate with the DA’s Office, but I think only
22 through Mr. Courlang.
23 THE COURT: Okay. And----
24 MR. STANFORD: So I have no problem with what Your
25 Honor is asking me to do or telling him to do. None

Page 30
1 whatsoever.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. FULLER: And I would just add that, exempted
4 from all that----
5 THE COURT: I’m sorry. What?
6 MR. FULLER: Exempted from all that is the matter
7 before Judge Flanagan in which these people are going to be
8 named in the amended complaint. So there has been contact,
9 but it’s been contact regarding that ongoing civil
10 litigation.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. FULLER: It’s very complicated because
13 everyone----
14 THE COURT: But with respect to what I’m here
15 about today----
16 MR. FULLER: Right.
17 THE COURT: ---- it’s— I just want to make sure
18 it’s everybody’s understanding of Judge Smith’s order that
19 it is okay for Mr. Fuller to come to your office later on
20 today, Mr. Stanford, and provide you with however many
21 pieces of paper that he asks you to sign that are AOC form
22 G-100 subpoenas.
23 MR. STANFORD: I do not have a problem with that,
24 Your Honor. In my humble opinion, I would not report that
25 to the Court as a violation of Judge Smith’s order. I do

Page 31
1 not believe it to be one, and even if I did, I would not
2 report it because Your Honor’s instructing me to do that.
3 So I think that’s an exception.
4 I will follow Your Honor’s instructions.
5 THE COURT: Well, but Mr. Stanford----
6 MR. STANFORD: It’s not. It’s not.
7 THE COURT: In all fairness, I don’t want to run
8 afoul of Judge Smith’s order either. And so I just want to
9 make sure that everybody interprets Judge Smith’s order as
10 allowing Mr. Fuller— whether he’s order to do it by me or
11 not, that is, is it your understanding that Judge Smith’s
12 order amending an earlier no-contact order allows him to
13 present you with subpoenas to sign?
14 MR. STANFORD: Answer is yes.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. I appreciate that.
16 Bailiff, we will be in recess. If would adjourn court
17 sine die.
18 (The Court was adjourned at 10:37 AM.)
END OF TRANSCRIPT.

Page 32
CERTIFICATION OF TRANSCRIPT
This is to certify that the foregoing transcript of

proceedings at the September 15, 2014 Session of Mecklenburg
County Superior Court is a true and accurate transcript of
the proceedings from a recording made by the Office of the
Mecklenburg County Clerk of Superior Court and transcribed
by me. I further certify that I am not related to any party
or attorney, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in the
outcome of this action.
This 23rd day of May, 2019.

Court Reporting Manager
229 Kinton Drive
Fuquay-Varina, NC 27526
919-890-1601
David.E.Jester@nccourts.org

NORTH CAROLINA GENERAL COURT OF JUSTICE
********************************
STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA ) COUNTY OF ORANGE

)
versus ) 17 CRS 50340
)
NAPIER SANDFORD FULLER )
Defendant. )
********************************
MASTER INDEX
TRANSCRIPT, Volume I-IV of IV
Monday, 6 August 2018 through Thursday, 9 August 2018
Pages 525 - 530
********************************
August 6th, 2018 Criminal Trial Session
Honorable G. Bryan Collins, Judge Presiding
Jury Trial
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kimmel G. McDiarmid, RPR
Official Court Reporter - District 15-B
POB 1384, Pittsboro, NC 27312
919-270-6078 ** kimmel.g.mcdiarmid@nccourts.org
526
MASTER INDEX
VOL. # DAY/DATE COVERED PAGE SPAN
1 MON. 6 AUG. 2018 1-30
2 TUE. 7 AUG. 2018 31-137
3 WED. 8 AUG. 2018 138-321
4 THU. 9 AUG. 2018 322-524
MI ALL FOUR DAYS 525-
Discuss w/Court NCCOA Database Code by Courlang, 5

Fuller
Discuss w/Court ADA Title II Accommodations by Mr. 11

Fuller
Dft's Argument Continuance - Mr. Fuller 14
State's Argument Continuance - Mr. Courlang 21
Discuss w/Court Scheduling by Courlang and Fuller 24
Discuss w/Court NHSO Objection and Motion to Quash 37

Subpoenas by Huffman
Discuss w/Court NHSO Objection & Motion to Quash 42

subpoenas by Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON NHSO OBJECTION & MOTION TO QUASH 45

SUBPOENAS
Dft's Argument Motion to Dismiss - Fuller 46
State's Argument Motion to Dismiss - Courlang 61
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS (facial 68

constitutionality)
Dft's Argument Motion to Dismiss/Lack of Evd. - 72

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS/LACK OF EVD. 74
Dft's Argument Motion to Continue - Fuller 74

527
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO CONTINUE 75
Discuss w/Court State Mot. Lim. 1st Amend. Arg. by 76

Courlang, Fuller
Dft's Argument Dismiss; Withdraw Appeal from D.C. 78

- Fuller
State's Argument Dismiss; Withdraw Appeal from 80

D.C. - Courlang
Dft's Argument Dismiss; W/D Appeal from D.C. - 82

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C. 83
Discuss w/Court Fuller's Subpoenas, Witnesses by 85

Fuller
Court's Introductory Instructions 105
JURY SELECTION BEGINS (not reported) 120
JURY IMPANELED 150
STATE'S OPENING STATEMENT 156
DEFENDANT'S OPENING STATEMENT 160
STATE'S EVIDENCE BEGINS 168
Discuss w/Court Fuller Proposed Evidence by Fuller 285
Discuss w/Court Fuller proposed evidence by Fuller 311
Discuss w/Court Quash Subpoena of Bowen by 313

Lambeth/Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON QUASH SUBPOENA OF BOWEN 314
Discuss w/Court Fuller Proposed Evidence by 316

Fuller/Courlang
Dft's Argument Motion for Relief - Fuller 327
State's Argument Motion for Relief - Courlang 329
Discuss w/Court Order of Procedure by Fuller 382

528
STATE RESTS 411
Dft's Argument Motion to Dismiss (as-applied) - 412

Fuller
State's Argument Motion to Dismiss (as-applied) - 414

Courlang

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS (AS-APPLIED) 418
Dft's Argument Sufficiency of the Evidence - 420

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON SUFFICIENCY OF THE EVIDENCE 420
Discuss w/Court Dft's Rights Evidence Presentation 421

by Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON DFT'S RIGHTS EVIDENCE 425

PRESENTATION
DEFENDANT'S EVIDENCE BEGINS 430
DEFENDANT RESTS 465
CHARGE CONFERENCE 467
DEFENDANT'S CLOSING 481
STATE'S FINAL 498
JURY CHARGE 501
JURY DELIBERATIONS AND QUESTIONS TO THE COURT 510
JURY VERDICT 4:27 p.m. 511
READING OF THE VERDICT 513
SENTENCING HEARING 514
Discuss w/Court Pretrial Release Conditions by 520

Courlang, Fuller
529
WITNESS: PAGE
STATE'S CASE IN CHIEF ------------------------------------
Ross Barbee
Direct Examination by Mr. Courlang 168

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fuller 188
Mark Shiver
Lisa de Sax Zerden

Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Courlang 239
Direct Examination Continues by Mr. Courlang 247
Cross-Examination Continues by Mr. Fuller 345
WITNESS PAGE
DEFENDANT'S CASE IN CHIEF ---------------------------------
Ross Barbee
Direct Examination by Mr. Fuller 431
Terri Phoenix
EXHIBITS
STATE'S EXHIBITS -------------------------------------------
NO. DESCRIPTION MKD RCVD
1 1/25/17 e-mail cease and desist letter 179 180

530
2 CD of What Matters in NC podcast 223 225
3 collection of e-mail 240 253
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS ---------------------------------------
1 e-mails between R. Barbee and J. David 198 201
2 Zerden message to SoWoSO 292 292
3 1/25/17 Barbee e-mail 205 206
4 Zerden e-mail with Zuckerman 348
5 string of e-mails re: blocking e-mails 359
6 printed Anti-Tranny.org logo 388 388
7 Internal Affairs statistics 430
8 e-mail from Gary Bowen 447
9 Phone call transcript, Barbee & Fuller 454
10 USDOJ CRD Recommendations 457

********************************

)
)
Defendant. )
********************************
TRANSCRIPT, Volume I of IV
Monday, 6 August 2018
Pages 1 - 30
********************************
Jury Trial
-----------------------------------------------------------
A P P E A R A N C E S
For the State: Blake Courlang, ADA

Orange County DA's Office
919-644-4600
blake.courlang@nccourts.org
For the Pro Se

Defendant: Napier Sandford Fuller
2201 Lynnwood Drive
Wilmington NC 28403
910.262.2359
napier@alum.mit.edu
provocare@protonmail.ch
3
INDEX
Discuss w/Court NCCOA Database Code by Courlang, 5

Fuller
Discuss w/Court ADA Title II Accommodations by Mr. 11

Fuller
Dft's Argument Continuance - Mr. Fuller 14
State's Argument Continuance - Mr. Courlang 21
Discuss w/Court Scheduling by Courlang and Fuller 24

4
12:04:25 1 (Court resumed session for the purposes of this matter at
2 12:04 p.m.)
12:04:26 3 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I believe you have a
4 motion to continue; is that right?
12:04:30 5 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor.
12:04:31 6 THE COURT: Okay.
12:04:31 7 MR. FULLER: And -- and I have -- I don't
8 understand all the protocols, but there's two other motions
9 that were filed if -- maybe that the bailiff may have given
10 you my brief -- or we can just go right into the
11 continuance.
12:04:51 12 THE COURT: Let's see. I have a motion to
13 dismiss. Is that one of them you are talking about?
12:04:56 14 MR. FULLER: I am not talking about those.
12:04:58 16 MR. FULLER: I'm talking about two motions that I
17 just filed today. One relates to ADA Title II
18 accommodations, and the other as it relates to a correction
19 of the NCAOC database.
12:05:12 20 THE COURT: All right. Let me see here. Hang on
21 a second.
12:05:14 22 MR. FULLER: Okay.
12:05:14 23 (Pause in proceedings.)
12:05:22 24 THE COURT: All right. If you -- if you mind,
25 just give your copy -- give whatever copy you want me to
Kimmel G. McDiarmid, RPR ** CERTIFIED Final Transcript

5
1 have to the sheriff with whatever you -- have you served
2 those motions on the State?
12:05:32 3 MR. FULLER: Ummm, I have served the ADA. Here is
4 the other one that I believe you'll want.
12:05:39 5 THE COURT: Okay. Let's see here.
12:05:43 6 (Bailiff Neighbours gave paperwork to the judge.)
12:05:44 7 PARTIES' MOTION DISCUSSION
12:05:44 8 THE COURT: I just want to make sure we are all on
9 the same page here. I have a motion to amend that the NCAOC
10 database for correction and expungement; is that -- is that
11 one of them you are talking about?
12:05:56 12 MR. FULLER: Yes. And that relates to the NC
13 court's database has the incorrect name of the law I'm
14 charged under, and it doesn't have the correct four digit
15 code. It's coded at -- if you look it up -- 9999, which is
16 nonexistent.
12:06:17 18 MR. FULLER: And it's kind of important for me to
19 prepare a defense that these things agree, that the name of
20 the law, the NC General Statute, and the code are all
21 different and -- and -- and do not relate to --
12:06:34 22 THE COURT REPORTER: And do not relate to.
12:06:34 23 MR. FULLER: -- one another.
12:06:36 24 THE COURT: All right. Does the State want to be
25 heard on that motion?

6
DISCUSS NCCOA DATABASE CODE/COURLANG, FULLER
12:06:40 1 MR. COURLANG: The State does not object to
2 changing a code on the AOC -- I don't believe that is the
3 State's domain. I believe that's the clerk's domain.
12:06:55 4 THE COURT: Well, hang on a minute. Let me see
5 what... I need to find the charging instrument in this case
6 so that I can see.
12:07:06 7 MR. FULLER: It -- it -- it -- specifically, when
8 you go to nccourts.org and put my name in, that's what I'm
9 referring to. It's the electronic rendition of the written
10 document. So I --
12:07:18 11 THE COURT: Okay. I -- I understand what you
12 mean. I mean, it says on -- on the calendar, which is
13 printed off of that database, that you are charged with
14 "harassing communications." You're saying that's not what
15 you are charged with; right?
12:07:29 16 MR. FULLER: That -- that is -- there is no law
17 called that. I'm charged with cyberstalking. It's
18 confusing because there is a telephone harassment statute
19 that's different.
12:07:38 20 THE COURT: All right. Hang on.
12:08:13 21 Okay. Here we go. No, that's not it.
12:08:13 22 Madam Clerk, you can find this faster than I can.
23 Can you find the district court judgment in this case for
24 me, please?
12:08:17 25 THE CLERK: Okay.

7
12:08:20 1 MR. FULLER: And you are going to see why it's
2 confusing -- there are two different judgments entered for
3 this case.
12:08:27 4 THE COURT: Wait. Here it is. I think.
12:08:29 5 THE CLERK: No, that's -- that's not the one.
12:08:34 6 THE COURT: This isn't it? Okay. All right.
7 Hang on. We will find it. Bear with us. Because I want it
8 to be right too, so I'm inclined to grant your motion as
9 long as it's well founded.
12:09:05 10 There we go. Okay.
12:09:12 11 MR. FULLER: And I don't know if you heard me, but
12 it's confusing. There are two judgments entered in the
13 district court trial for each of the charges. There is a
14 total of four written judgments, both of which are the
15 opposite of each other. There's actually five judgments.
16 One of them is struck through, but it can be very confusing.
12:09:39 17 THE COURT: All right. Here we go. Now we are
18 getting somewhere. I see a judgment dated July the 20th,
19 2017, Honorable Catherine Stevens that...
12:10:18 21 THE COURT: After a trial by judge -- it says that
22 it convicts you of harassing communications under
23 14-196.3(b)(2), which puts you on unsupervised probation.
24 There's the one.
12:10:44 25 You say there's another one?

8
12:10:45 1 MR. FULLER: Yeah. That one should say "amended"
2 somewhere at the top, and there's another one that also is
3 the same date.
12:10:52 4 THE COURT: That one says "correct file number."
5 I don't see anything that says "amended."
12:10:58 6 All right. All right. Go ahead.
12:11:00 7 What else did you want me to see?
12:11:03 8 MR. FULLER: I -- I just wanted to be clear that
9 the name of the law as labeled in the North Carolina General
10 Statute reflected -- in other words, there is no harassing
11 communications law. It's like a made up phrase, and it's
12 just confusing to me.
12:11:24 14 MR. FULLER: Your Honor --
12:11:24 15 THE COURT: All right. We had another -- this is
16 something that Judge Holt did. That doesn't have anything
17 to do with district court. Let's see.
12:11:53 18 Let me sort of put the onus on the State. What is
19 it that the State contends this man was convicted of in
20 district court?
12:11:59 21 MR. COURLANG: The State contends that Mr. Fuller
22 was convicted of a violation of Section § 14-196.3
23 subsection (b)(2).
12:12:12 24 THE COURT: Okay. And how is that law styled?
25 What's the caption of it in the statute?

9
12:12:18 1 MR. COURLANG: The title of this particular
2 statute is "cyberstalking," but within the statute there are
3 a number of subsections.
12:12:27 5 MR. COURLANG: (b)(1), (b)(2), (b)(3), (b)(4),
6 (b)(5). And the State has always seen a violation of
7 subsection (b)(2) to be called "harassing communications" as
8 the clerk's shorthand. It is under the cyberstalking title,
9 but it is a subsection of this particular statute.
12:12:53 10 THE COURT: All right.
12:12:53 11 Madam Clerk, does our software recognize
12 14-196-(b) -- excuse me .3(b)(2) as having its own unique
13 code or is that "9999" a default code?
12:13:14 14 THE CLERK: That's a default code for me.
12:13:16 15 THE COURT: Because we don't have a code. Okay.
12:13:24 16 THE CLERK: We don't have a code for that general
17 statute.
12:13:26 18 MR. FULLER: I'm -- I'm --
12:13:27 19 THE COURT: Well, hang on a second. I'm trying to
20 make sure this is right before I do anything.
12:13:33 21 All right. First, you have asked that the North
22 Carolina General Statute reference be correct. Do you
23 contend that 14-196.3(b)(2) is not the correct statutory
24 reference?
12:13:46 25 MR. FULLER: It is the correct one.

10
12:13:48 2 MR. FULLER: And I believe the four digit code, if
3 my memory serves, is 1352; and I have communicated that.
4 I'm -- I'm -- I would have to double check that, but I have
5 looked into all the statistics of the cases, and it
6 certainly -- it isn't -- it does have a code. It's not --
12:14:04 7 THE COURT: You say it's 1352?
12:14:06 8 MR. FULLER: I'm pretty sure it's 13 -- I'm...
12:14:08 9 THE COURT: If you look at 1352, what do you get?
12:14:13 10 THE CLERK: It will take me a minute to look at
11 it.
12:14:16 12 THE COURT: We're a little hamstrung by our
13 software. But I understand the point you are making, and I
14 want to get it right too so hang on.
12:14:23 15 MR. FULLER: I will look at my computer and double
16 check.
12:14:52 18 THE COURT REPORTER: Judge, I can't hear the
19 clerk.
12:15:11 20 THE COURT: The clerk says that that code that
21 Mr. Fuller just announced is not found in our software.
12:15:16 22 But Mr. Fuller, beside that point -- and I'm -- I
23 agree with you that it needs to be right; and I'm going to
24 make sure that it is right. But Constitutionally, and as a
25 matter of practice, the title of a statute is considered to

11
1 be surplusage; and what really matters is what the elements
2 of the offense are.
12:15:39 3 MR. FULLER: Sure. Sure.
12:15:40 4 THE COURT: If you get convicted of this, I will
5 make sure that your judgment is right.
12:15:44 6 MR. FULLER: Okay. All right.
12:15:44 7 THE COURT: You are here for a trial de novo, so
8 nothing that happened in district court even counts anymore.
9 We are here -- we have started over. All right?
12:15:53 10 MR. FULLER: Sure.
12:15:54 11 THE COURT: So I will keep that in mind.
12:15:55 13 THE COURT: If we get to that point, I will make
14 sure it's right.
12:15:57 15 Now, what's your next point?
12:15:59 17 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yeah. And -- and the next
18 point -- let's see here -- I think we should maybe -- I just
19 want you to be aware of the ADA issues. This is a pretty
20 complicated case. There is a derivative federal lawsuit
21 that's been ongoing since April the 4th that is before Judge
22 Flanagan that is --
12:16:17 24 MR. FULLER: -- a landmark case, being that there
25 is no case precedent -- I think -- in the United States over

12
DISCUSS ADA TITLE II ACCOMMODATIONS/MR. FULLER
1 this.
12:16:22 2 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to make it
3 simple. What is it that you want me to do to accommodate
4 your disability?
12:16:27 5 MR. FULLER: I just wanted you to be aware of the
6 requests that have been submitted to the clerk, this -- this
7 current matter.
12:16:34 8 THE COURT: The clerk forwarded it to me, but it's
9 not clear to me what it is that you are asking me to do.
12:16:38 11 THE COURT: So I'm going to make reasonable
12 accommodations to your disability --
12:16:40 13 MR. FULLER: Sure. Sure. Yeah.
12:16:40 14 THE COURT: -- but I need you to tell me what that
15 is.
12:16:44 16 MR. FULLER: Sure. For instance, I take
17 medication. I drove up here from Wilmington, so I started
18 around 5:30 in the morning. So it's very important for me
19 to know what time I'm going to be speaking because -- I
20 guess, I'm not taking the medication at this exact time
21 because it's -- that one of the side effects is loss of
22 appetite for lunch. So as we are getting to lunchtime, I
23 haven't taken it. It lasts about three hours.
12:17:04 25 MR. FULLER: So that's the one thing that's very

13
1 helpful for me.
12:17:04 2 THE COURT: Well, all you have to do, sir, is tell
3 me. And you don't have to do it in front of the jury. You
4 can approach the bench and let me know if you don't want the
5 jury to know --
12:17:13 6 MR. FULLER: All right.
12:17:13 7 THE COURT: -- "I need to take my medicine." And
8 I will give you all the time you need to do that. That's
9 easy.
12:17:18 10 MR. FULLER: Okay. Great. So -- so that would be
11 helpful.
12:17:23 12 Another aspect involves what's called "emotional
13 dysregulation." In other words, sometimes I -- I -- if I
14 become a little worked up, which I may in this case -- it's
15 kind of an interesting case -- I may have some hyperkinetic
16 movements. And sometimes in the past, moving, the judge
17 has found that really annoying, and then has like
18 threatened the bailiff to throw me in jail. And so I would
19 try to -- to have sort of a de-escalation that, when I'm
20 menaced by people, I get adrenaline and will start shaking
21 so -- so it can be kind of a downward spiral.
12:18:01 22 THE COURT: I will certainly keep that in mind,
23 and I will promise you that I'm not going to get excited
24 about this case.

14
12:18:07 1 THE COURT: As you have sat here and watched, I
2 spend most of my time dealing with murders and robberies and
3 rapes, and -- I'm not trying to be dismissive of your
4 situation. I know this is the most important case in your
5 life.
12:18:20 6 MR. FULLER: Yes, it is, Your Honor.
12:18:21 7 THE COURT: But it's not the most important case
8 in mine.
12:18:24 10 THE COURT: And we are going to be fine.
12:18:26 13 MR. FULLER: Okay. That's nice to hear that.
12:18:31 14 Are we ready to talk about the continuance?
12:18:33 15 THE COURT: Sure.
12:18:33 16 DEFENDANT'S ARGUMENT
12:18:34 17 MR. FULLER: Yes. So -- so there are four reasons
18 that I would -- I would request that and will now give it to
19 you briefly verbally: First of all, there is -- more time I
20 need to obtain witnesses that are going to be speaking on my
21 behalf and to have documents. Due to the -- perhaps due to
22 the preexisting litigation with the clerk -- anyway, we can
23 never agree on how these pro se subpoenas would be issued.
12:19:02 24 And I filed a temporary restraining order that
25 Judge -- Judge Robinson, I believe -- a Special Superior

15
DFT ARGUMENT CONTINUANCE - MR. FULLER
1 Court Judge, issued a ruling on the 11th of July that found
2 that, indeed, I think, to use his phrase, he was not
3 convinced in the legal reasoning in the refusal. And so
4 I -- I have just started the process of giving -- issuing
5 those subpoenas. And already we have had a challenge that
6 has come in. So some people said they are not going to
7 cooperate. This is a document that just was -- I got
8 yesterday and -- (indiscernable)
12:19:39 9 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, what? That you
10 got yesterday?
12:19:39 11 MR. FULLER: Yes, this is from the attorneys, you
12 know, arresting -- the -- the attorneys representing the
13 arresting parties do not want to give that videotape. We
14 have been trying to get this. It's pretty crazy. For a
15 minor misdemeanor, we had five police officers and guns
16 drawn and in body armor. It's -- it's -- and I --
12:20:00 17 THE COURT: Has anybody filed a motion to quash
18 those subpoenas? Is that what you are talking about?
12:20:06 19 MR. FULLER: This is titled Objection to
20 Subpoenas. But the New Hanover County sheriffs do not want
21 that video out, and they have been fighting this. Since the
22 district court we had it subpoenaed, and they did not object
23 and just didn't send it. So I was kind of irked about
24 that --

16
12:20:25 1 MR. FULLER: -- but the Court never took any
2 action. So -- so that would be one issue. So we do have a
3 court order that is found on the -- less than a month ago
4 that the State has basically been hindering my ability to --
5 to obtain witnesses in my favor.
12:20:39 6 THE COURT: All right. Just so I understand, the
7 judge made the ruling on July the 11th. Did he sign your
8 subpoenas on July the 11th?
12:20:47 9 MR. FULLER: The subpoenas -- we had about maybe
10 50 or so signed blank at that point. And then they had to
11 be -- the process of service had to start.
12:20:56 12 THE COURT: Okay. And how many subpoenas have you
13 issued and how many of them have been served?
12:21:01 14 MR. FULLER: I have at this point served two of
15 them, and they have both been rejected by the attorneys.
12:21:12 17 MR. FULLER: In other words, they are going to
18 fight them.
12:21:15 19 THE COURT: How many do you have left to serve?
12:21:17 20 MR. FULLER: I plan to serve approximately maybe
21 20 of them -- and most of them will go to UNC Chapel Hill
22 employees. And they, from the previous experience, will
23 fight them tooth and nail.
12:21:30 24 THE COURT: All right. And why haven't you done
25 that yet?

17
12:21:32 1 MR. FULLER: Because, knowing how hard they fight,
2 I -- I have decided, since this is not an official UNC case,
3 to subpoena the people directly as individuals, as natural
4 persons, and not to go through their attorneys. Their
5 attorneys -- I think -- made things much more difficult and
6 actually quashed them all after the -- after the deadline in
7 which they were supposed to be here.
12:21:55 8 You come in to court at 9:00, and they quash them
9 at 2:00 p.m. post-facto, which kind of irked me, but that's
10 the way it happens. So to avoid that, I'm now going to
11 process everyone individually and not through their
12 attorneys, so it's not a trick, you know.
12:22:11 13 THE COURT: Well, let's see here. All right.
14 Okay.
12:22:12 15 MR. FULLER: And then -- so we have talked about
16 the subpoenas.
12:22:15 17 We also have -- the ongoing federal action is --
18 is to define -- and the reason that we are fighting over
19 this so much is -- is because -- and I think it's
20 unprecedented in the United States. I have actually taken
21 five judges to court, and it has been going now for about
22 five months. And so -- and there is also a United States
23 versus North Carolina settlement that occurred in 2012 that
24 I'm a party of, so it's a real complicated debate with a
25 previous settlement that's been violated. And that's back

18
1 in court in front of Judge Dever in Raleigh, so it's a real
2 mess right now.
12:22:47 3 But essentially, there was a court order that came
4 about on Friday the 3rd that said due to the Younger
5 Doctrine that the federal court will not intervene in a
6 ongoing criminal prosecution; but it will intervene -- from
7 my understanding, reading that order -- once things are
8 settled. And so the -- the case is still ongoing. But
9 it's just a little confusing. I just wanted you to be
10 aware of that.
12:23:12 11 THE COURT: Does that mean that the State case
12 needs to get resolved first instead of the other way around?
12:23:17 13 MR. FULLER: That's correct.
12:23:17 14 THE COURT: Okay. What does that federal action
15 have to do with -- I mean, the way I understand the elements
16 of this crime --
12:23:24 17 MR. FULLER: Right.
12:23:24 18 THE COURT: -- you are charged with making some
19 sort of electronic communication -- that would be one
20 element they would have to -- the State would have to prove
21 beyond a reasonable doubt, that you have made such
22 communication. And then they would have to prove beyond a
23 reasonable doubt that your purpose in doing that was to
24 harass somebody.
12:23:40 25 MR. FULLER: That's -- that's --

19
12:23:41 1 THE COURT: That's the elements of the crime. So
2 what does this lawsuit have to do with either one of those
3 elements?
12:23:46 4 MR. FULLER: The -- the federal lawsuit was
5 regarding access to my own trial that in this court, we have
6 had -- I have been, you know, told never to come back to the
7 court. I was sort of banned and told not to contact the
8 clerk's office. He's hung up the phone on me, and I've
9 been -- so a number of these actions occurred that I would
10 say I'm not having access to -- that was a judgment that --
11 that cave (sic) gave as a party to that suit, that some of
12 those started to sever (sic) across lines -- started
13 violating my due process.
12:24:22 14 I mean, I think people, when you deal with pro se
15 people, especially that -- in -- in the more rancorous
16 district court atmosphere, might see some of these
17 behaviors and it connects up and just drives them crazy,
18 and they threaten bailiffs, and we kind of get into
19 something that -- that I would say has delayed and
20 escalated this. And it's to the point that I was pretty
21 furious about. And I looked into the law, and I'm -- I --
22 I fully intend to take those judges to court to a jury
23 trial. I think it's -- (indiscernable)
12:24:54 24 THE COURT REPORTER: Wait a minute. You think
25 it's what? I couldn't hear you.

20
12:24:57 1 MR. FULLER: They haven't been able to dismiss the
2 case in five months. I don't think they are going to be
3 able to dismiss it. I think it's going to go to trial, and
4 it's -- it's not like -- all they are going to do is just
5 get a judgment, what we call declaratory injunctive relief,
6 that said. But it will affect millions of people because it
7 will probably be appealed to the Fourth Circuit, so -- but
8 that's separate --
12:25:18 10 MR. FULLER: Let's go back to this. So we have
11 the first reason, the need for more time to obtain the
12 witnesses; we have the ongoing action.
12:25:23 13 We also have some really bizarre, what I would
14 call extraordinary circumstances. And in going through
15 some of the case file, I have noticed some of the documents
16 are missing; and that's bothered me a lot. There is also
17 this notion of sua sponte changes. I was never given any
18 notice. And we do have -- and I can read off my camera and
19 have all these different judgments.
12:25:48 20 But there were essentially five judgments entered
21 for two charges out of that July 20th. And I have never
22 been given any explanation over -- over -- of -- of the
23 process in which things were changed after the court went
24 out of session. I understand when an emergency judge is
25 here that the session ends when she leaves. So it's a

21
1 question in how could she change it five weeks after the
2 fact without any notice? Just kind of a strange thing
3 that -- that -- you are correct, when you are having a
4 trial de novo, you wipe that clean; but when you are
5 starting to have a concern of some alteration of legal
6 documents, that can be regarded as a felony crime.
12:26:29 7 And then finally, looking forward to -- I was
8 going to request the March 2019. I have a lot of
9 international travel. And I wanted to say I have no
10 criminal background. I actually had a role as an --
11 quasi-judicial role. I was the vice chairman of the --
12 until just recently; I retired from that -- of the Board of
13 Adjustment, which is, you know, a quasi-judicial role where
14 you issue subpoenas and all that. But anyway, I have got a
15 whole lot of international travel: Japan, Qatar, Ukraine;
16 three different trips. And so that would be my preference
17 to have a trial certain date in March of 2019. But if we
18 wanted to go earlier, I could certainly do something in
19 December.
12:27:13 20 THE COURT: Okay. What says the State in response
21 to his motion to continue?
12:27:17 22 STATE'S ARGUMENT
12:27:17 23 MR. COURLANG: The State opposes Mr. Fuller's
24 motion to continue. If I could just go back maybe through
25 the procedural history of this case.

22
STATE'S ARGUMENT CONTINUANCE - MR. COURLANG
12:27:27 2 MR. COURLANG: We did have that July 20th district
3 court date.
12:27:30 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, it's the standard practice
5 of the court that only the person who has the floor is
6 standing; all right? Thank you.
12:27:35 7 (The defendant was seated.)
12:27:37 8 MR. COURLANG: And I think, as Your Honor has
9 read, Mr. Fuller was found guilty of one count of harassing
10 communications. Mr. Fuller gave appeal orally in court that
11 day. Mr. Fuller had a first appearance in superior court
12 August 28th, approximately a year ago. The matter was set
13 for trial on November 27th of 2017. At that point,
14 Mr. Fuller had a Mr. Thompson from the Public Defender's
15 Office as an attorney who requested a continuance. The
16 State did agree to that continuance, and a March 12th trial
17 date was set.
12:28:15 18 And on that particular date, there were arguments
19 heard as to Mr. Fuller's motion to dismiss. Mr. Thompson,
20 as well as Mr. Berne, B-E-R-N-E, did represent Mr. Fuller
21 on that particular day. About five, ten minutes before the
22 jury was to come in, Mr. Thompson filed a motion for a
23 local certified forensic evaluator; and Judge Holt granted
24 that motion. The case was continued on that particular
25 date until August the 6th, today.

23
STATE'S ARGUMENT CONTINUANCE - MR. COURLANG
12:28:51 1 Your Honor, the State contends that we had to
2 subpoena lay witnesses three times now. We have agreed to
3 one motion to continue. The March 12th trial date was
4 continued, and now we have our third trial date in superior
5 court for this particular Class 2 misdemeanor. We contend
6 that Mr. Fuller had plenty of time to subpoena his
7 witnesses. The date was continued on March 12th until
8 August 6th. That's approximately five months. Mr. Fuller
9 even said himself today with regards to about 20 subpoenas,
10 "I decided not to serve them," for reasons that he
11 expounded upon earlier.
12:29:34 12 The State has a (sic) interest in hearing this
13 case, having this case heard. The lay witnesses are taking
14 time out of their days, their work lives, their families to
15 come to these courts. I have been here on multiple
16 occasions. We think in the interest of justice for
17 everyone involved that this case indeed be heard this
18 particular week. Mr. Fuller has had ample notice that this
19 is the trial week. We have lay witnesses under subpoena.
20 We have officers under subpoena.
12:30:03 21 The State has spoken to Mr. Fuller regarding his
22 ADA accommodations. I have personally spoke with him. I
23 am happy to do anything I can to reasonably accommodate
24 Mr. Fuller's disabilities. I have no issue with that in
25 any way, shape, or form. We are asking, this being the

24
DISCUSS SCHEDULING/COURLANG AND FULLER
1 fourth time it's set in superior court -- the State has
2 continued to one -- the State has agreed to one continuance
3 previously. We ask that this particular case not be
4 continued and the trial be heard this week.
12:30:36 6 THE COURT: All right. Just -- just as a
7 practical matter, I take it that you would like to start the
8 trial at 9:30 in the morning. You got a jury coming at 9:30
9 in the morning; is that right?
12:30:47 10 MR. COURLANG: That's correct, Your Honor.
12:30:48 11 THE COURT: How many witnesses do you have
12 subpoenaed and ready to go for 9:30 in the morning?
12:30:52 13 MR. COURLANG: The State has three witnesses
14 subpoenaed.
12:30:55 15 THE COURT: Now, he has apparently gotten service
16 of at least two people; and they have communicated to him in
17 some fashion that they are not coming. And that's not
18 satisfactory. I'm going to make them come, but -- unless
19 they come and file a motion to quash and we have some sort
20 of ruling on that.
12:31:17 21 Are you aware of anybody filing any motion to
22 quash any of his subpoenas?
12:31:21 23 MR. COURLANG: I am, Your Honor.
12:31:22 24 THE COURT: Okay. Tell me about that.
12:31:23 25 MR. COURLANG: I have received a motion to quash

25
1 from The New Hanover sheriff's office. They have sent that
2 to me with -- in the past week or so in response to
3 Mr. Fuller's subpoenas. That is a filed motion to quash.
4 It does not say they are not coming to the trial.
12:31:36 6 MR. COURLANG: It says they filed a motion to
7 quash. I expect the attorney from New Hanover sheriff's
8 office to be present tomorrow and to be heard on that motion
9 to quash.
12:31:45 10 THE COURT: So you are going to calendar the
11 motion to quash for 9:30 in the morning?
12:31:49 12 MR. COURLANG: Now, I would ask that.
12:31:49 13 Mr. Fuller has also filed a motion to dismiss,
14 based on First Amendment grounds. We would ask that be
15 heard at 9:30 tomorrow morning as well. So we are planning
16 on having -- if it's okay with Madam Clerk -- the jury come
17 in maybe a little bit later to hear some pretrial motions
18 in this particular matter tomorrow morning.
12:32:05 19 THE COURT: Are you going to ask -- here is what
20 I'm considering doing, just so you will kind of know where
21 I'm heading -- I'm not sure whether I'm going to continue
22 the case until I hear the motion to quash and sort of find
23 out -- because I want you to have your witnesses here if
24 they are proper witnesses.
12:32:26 25 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, can I say one thing?

26
12:32:28 1 THE COURT: Hang on a minute. I just want you to
2 understand where I'm headed, and then I will be glad to hear
3 you.
12:32:34 4 Do you want me to hear your motion to dismiss
5 tomorrow?
12:32:39 6 MR. FULLER: Yes.
12:32:39 7 THE COURT: That's up to you.
12:32:40 8 MR. FULLER: Yes. It's about 50 pages, and it
9 was -- and a professor out of UCLA helped do it, and no one
10 has ever looked at it. There is an immense amount of
11 scholarship, so --
12:32:50 12 THE COURT: Okay. You talking about the motion to
13 dismiss based on freedom of speech?
12:32:53 14 MR. FULLER: There -- see, there's four versions
15 of that. That's why it gets so complicated.
12:32:58 16 THE COURT: Well, this one was dated -- this one
17 was filed July the 10th of last year.
12:33:01 18 MR. FULLER: You want the one that's going to have
19 this fellow's name, Brent (sic) Berne. It's sort of the new
20 and improved version, and that's not that one. That was a
21 previous version.
12:33:12 22 THE COURT: Okay. So is there a motion in this
23 file?
12:33:14 24 MR. FULLER: It -- it will be in there somewhere.
12:33:16 25 THE COURT: All right. Let me see.

27
12:33:25 1 MR. FULLER: And could I just point out one thing?
12:33:28 3 MR. FULLER: About six months of this -- delays
4 and all this, was due to the State's response to my saying I
5 had ADD and needed accommodation was to basically declare me
6 insane. Then I had to go to a shrink for, like, months and
7 be interviewed over four different times. They interviewed
8 my wife. They interviewed my friends. And all this came
9 and said that I have no -- have no major mental health
10 problems, am very intelligent. I'm an MIT graduate. But
11 that delayed the case for about six months, and I couldn't
12 go to trial having people represent me that were not
13 supporting me, you know. They were -- they were forced on
14 me.
12:34:04 15 THE COURT: All right. Let me see if I can find
16 this. Do you have another copy of the motion that you would
17 like to have heard tomorrow?
12:34:11 18 MR. FULLER: I -- I think I do.
12:34:15 19 THE COURT: I don't have it with me. Well,
20 let's -- yes, I just --
12:34:20 21 MR. FULLER: It -- it was submitted to Judge Holt.
22 So this case -- one of the problems is it's so huge now. I
23 have gigabytes of documents, and it's really getting out of
24 control, but...
12:34:33 25 THE COURT: I just want to make sure I know which

28
1 motion I'm hearing.
12:34:46 2 MR. FULLER: I can definitely have it -- it --
3 it's in the file somewhere. It's -- it's --
12:34:56 4 Brett, do you --
12:34:57 5 THE COURT: Do you know what motion he is talking
6 about?
12:34:59 7 MR. COURLANG: I do, Your Honor.
12:35:01 8 THE COURT: Well, let me see if I can find it
9 again.
12:35:03 10 MR. COURLANG: I will check and see if I have a
11 copy as well.
12:35:09 12 THE COURT: Let's see here. I see a Memorandum of
13 Law in Support of Defendant's Motion to Dismiss that was
14 filed on March the 9th of this year. Is that the one?
12:35:18 15 MR. FULLER: Yes, that is it. Yes.
12:35:19 16 THE COURT: Okay. Then I have it. All right.
17 Here is what I'm going to do. I don't know whether to
18 continue this case until I hear your motion to dismiss and
19 until I hear whatever motions to quash your subpoenas. And
20 then we will sort of know where we are. And I'm going to
21 take your motion to continue under advisement, and I will
22 rule on it after I rule on your motion to dismiss and the
23 motions to quash your subpoenas.
12:35:48 24 MR. FULLER: Great.
12:35:48 25 THE COURT: All right?

29
12:35:50 1 MR. FULLER: Great. So we will see you tomorrow
2 at 9:30 then.
12:35:53 3 THE COURT: Tomorrow at 9:30. Yes, sir.
12:35:55 6 MR. FULLER: Thank you, Your Honor.
12:35:55 7 THE COURT: You can put your witnesses on standby.
8 Given how long these hearings might take and how long jury
9 selection might take, I doubt very seriously we are going to
10 hear any evidence tomorrow, so...
12:36:07 11 MR. COURLANG: Yes, sir.
12:36:07 12 THE COURT: And, Mr. Fuller, if you have witnesses
13 who are going to come without being compelled, tell them to
14 be here -- tell them to be on standby and be here Wednesday
15 morning at 9:30 because jury selection will take a while. I
16 don't want to inconvenience anybody unnecessarily.
12:36:23 17 MR. FULLER: Okay. That sounds great, sir.
12:36:25 18 THE COURT: All right?
12:36:26 20 THE COURT: We will have our hearing at 9:30 in
21 the morning. You are free to go until then. Thank you.
12:36:32 23 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I have a response to
24 the motion to dismiss. Would Your Honor like that today?
12:36:35 25 THE COURT: If you are going to serve it on him,

30
1 yes.
12:36:38 3 THE COURT: As soon as you give it to him, I will
4 be glad to look at it.
12:36:58 5 MR. COURLANG: If I may approach, Your Honor?
12:36:59 6 THE COURT: Yes.
12:36:59 7 (Mr. Courlang approached the bench.)
12:37:00 8 THE COURT: Okay. All right. I will be reading
9 this stuff, and we will be ready at 9:30 in the morning.
10 Thank you.
12:37:06 11 MR. COURLANG: Thank you, Judge.
12:37:06 12 (A recess was taken for the purposes of this matter at 12:37
13 p.m.)
12:37:06 14
16:12:57 15 (Volume One ends here on page 30. The trial transcript
16 continues in Volume Two at page 31 and was reported by this
17 same court reporter, Kimmel G. McDiarmid, RPR, Official
18 Court Reporter whose certificate is at the end of
19 Volume Four.)
20
21
22
23
24
25

********************************

)
)
Defendant. )
********************************
TRANSCRIPT, Volume II of IV
Tuesday, 7 August 2018
Pages 31 - 137
********************************
Jury Trial
-----------------------------------------------------------

919-644-4600
For the Pro Se

2201 Lynnwood Drive
Wilmington NC 28403
910.262.2359
napier@alum.mit.edu
For the New Hanover

county Sheriff's
Department: Sharon J. Huffman, Esqx.
Attorney at Law
230 Government Center Dr., Ste 125
Wilmington, NC 28403-1740
(910) 798-7153
33
INDEX
Discuss w/Court NHSO Objection and Motion to Quash 37

Subpoenas by Huffman
Discuss w/Court NHSO Objection & Motion to Quash 42

subpoenas by Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON NHSO OBJECTION & MOTION TO QUASH 45

SUBPOENAS
State's Argument Motion to Dismiss - Courlang 61
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS (facial 68

constitutionality)
Dft's Argument Motion to Dismiss/Lack of Evd. - 72

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS/LACK OF EVD. 74
Dft's Argument Motion to Continue - Fuller 74
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO CONTINUE 75
Discuss w/Court State Mot. Lim. 1st Amend. Arg. by 76

Courlang, Fuller
Dft's Argument Dismiss; Withdraw Appeal from D.C. 78

- Fuller
State's Argument Dismiss; Withdraw Appeal from 80

D.C. - Courlang
Dft's Argument Dismiss; W/D Appeal from D.C. - 82

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C. 82
Discuss w/Court Fuller's Subpoenas, Witnesses by 85

Fuller
Court's Introductory Instructions 105
JURY SELECTION BEGINS (not reported) 119

34
09:37:20 1 (Court resumed session for the purposes of this matter
2 Tuesday, 7 August 2018, at 9:37 a.m.)
09:37:20 3 (Present after the Break: ADA Blake Courlang; his
4 assistant, Beka Rose; Investigator Ross Barbee; the pro se
5 defendant, Napier Sandford Fuller.)
09:37:46 6 MR. FULLER: If I could get a moment to set all my
7 papers up.
09:37:50 8 THE COURT: That's fine.
09:37:54 9 MR. FULLER: As a point of levity, I will just
10 say: I'm wearing here the same exact clothes as yesterday,
11 since I do hope that we can wrap it up today so I don't have
12 to come back for a third day. I was expecting not to be
13 here for so long, but we are --
09:38:10 15 MR. FULLER: -- to have what I would term just
16 actually the third oral argument session we have had on this
17 case. We have done this -- this will be with Dickerson as
18 my counsel for the first time under Judge Bryan; and then we
19 did it -- I think for Holt -- with a number of other
20 attorneys; and so this is the third go 'round after almost
21 two years.
09:38:38 22 THE COURT: Okay. That's -- that's my
23 understanding of it as well. And to put it in the proper
24 legal context, it's my --
09:38:45 25 MR. FULLER: Ummm --

35
09:38:45 1 THE COURT: Sir, don't interrupt me when I'm
2 talking.
09:38:49 3 MR. FULLER: Yes, sir.
09:38:49 4 THE COURT: And I do want to let you know that, as
5 you probably know, we are being recorded by a court
6 reporter. She can only take one person's voice at a time.
7 So not only you, but everybody, let's have one person
8 talking at a time. All right? And --
09:39:08 9 MR. FULLER: Yes, sir and too -- or I'm sorry,
10 Judge.
09:39:13 12 MR. FULLER: As far as we were discussing
13 yesterday, correcting the database. If the Court -- the
14 bailiff might take this to the judge, this is -- has all the
15 correct information. I'm showing it. And it has the
16 correct four digit code, if you might want to -- I have
17 already sent this e-mail.
09:39:32 18 THE COURT: Just what is the correct four digit
19 code in getting --
09:39:37 20 MR. FULLER: It is 5337.
09:39:38 21 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to instruct the
22 clerk to look in our database for 5337; and if that's the
23 correct code, we will change it. I told you that I want it
24 to be correct, and I'm going to make sure that it is.
09:39:48 25 Now, before we get started, I notice in looking

36
1 through the file that Mr. Fuller's competence to proceed
2 has been placed into issue. The law requires me to resolve
3 that before we move forward. I have read the confidential
4 report of the psychiatrist who did the evaluation in this
5 case to determine whether Mr. Fuller was competent. I will
6 adopt the findings of fact in that report. I will also,
7 based on my own observations of Mr. Fuller over the last
8 two days, concur that Mr. Fuller is competent to proceed
9 and will find as a matter of law that he is competent to
10 proceed.
09:40:30 11 All right. Having taken care of that, once
12 Mr. Fuller gets organized, then I will ask the State which
13 motion they intend to proceed with first.
09:41:24 15 MR. FULLER: I am ready to proceed.
09:41:25 16 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, sir.
09:41:26 17 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. Before we begin,
18 I would ask the Court to order that Mr. Fuller not record
19 these proceedings on his own, if he is intending to do so.
09:41:34 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller?
09:41:35 21 MR. FULLER: I would kindly ask the Court as -- to
22 grant an exception. And the reason: When one has Attention
23 Deficit Disorder, it -- it's -- the State has already
24 provided in the past note takers for me, and it's very
25 helpful when I go back tonight to replay it. When we get

37
1 the official transcript, we have to wait weeks. And so
2 since we already have, I think, a news media here, I would
3 just -- if you don't mind, would like to be able to make
4 a -- a recording on my phone of just the voices so I can
5 know what happened if I have to come in tomorrow.
09:42:11 6 THE COURT: All right. In the exercise of my
7 discretion, you will be allowed to make an audio recording
8 of these proceedings. You may not video anybody. Okay?
09:42:20 9 MR. FULLER: Yes -- yes.
09:42:23 11 MR. COURLANG: Thank you, Your Honor.
09:42:23 12 We have Ms. Sharon Huffman, H-U-F-F-M-A-N, from
13 the New Hanover Sheriff's Office present. They have -- New
14 Hanover Sheriff's Office has filed a motion to quash
15 subpoenas. If Your Honor is so inclined, we would ask that
16 that be heard first.
09:42:41 17 THE COURT: Okay. That's fine with me.
09:42:42 18 Yes, ma'am.
09:42:43 19 MR. COURLANG: Come forward.
09:42:46 21 MS. HUFFMAN: Your Honor, I'm not sure if anyone
22 placed within the Court file; but if not, a copy for you --
09:42:52 23 THE COURT: I have --
09:42:53 24 MS. HUFFMAN: -- if I may approach.
09:42:54 25 THE COURT: I have your written objection to

38
DISCUSS NHSO OBJECTION & MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENAS/HUFFMAN
1 subpoenas with a lot of attachments; is that -- okay?
09:43:00 2 MS. HUFFMAN: Okay.
09:43:00 3 THE COURT: All right. I will hear your argument.
09:43:03 4 MS. HUFFMAN: Your Honor, have you glanced through
5 that --
09:43:07 6 THE COURT: I have.
09:43:07 7 MS. HUFFMAN: -- at all? You will see that it --
8 it's an objection to the subpoena, rather than a motion to
9 quash. And I -- if I may verbally add at this point a
10 motion to quash as well since I'm here.
09:43:23 11 THE COURT: You may.
09:43:24 12 MS. HUFFMAN: Judge, if you have looked at the --
13 at the subpoenas that were issued to Haywood White -- he is
14 the chairman of the New Hanover County Board of
15 Commissioners. He is a lawyer in Wilmington. And also,
16 there was a subpoena issued by Mr. Fuller for Ed McMahon,
17 who is the sheriff of New Hanover County. Mr. Fuller called
18 me some time last week and asked me if I would accept
19 service of these subpoenas; and I said, "Well, e-mail them
20 to me so I can see what they are and then I will let you
21 know." So he did. Last Wednesday he e-mailed these to me;
22 and I told him that I would accept service, which I did last
23 Wednesday.
09:44:09 25 MS. HUFFMAN: And then I proceeded to file the

39
1 objection last Wednesday. It was probably received by
2 Mr. Fuller on Thursday or Friday, and I sent a copy to the
3 DA and to the clerk of court here.
09:44:30 4 You can see, from the subpoena that was issued to
5 Mr. White and the subpoena that was issued to Sheriff
6 McMahon, that there is a laundry list of items that
7 Mr. Fuller has asked to be produced. I'm starting with
8 Mr. White's subpoena: Copies of any and all lawsuits and
9 legal settlement documents involving the sheriff's
10 office -- he doesn't give a timeframe, so I guess he means
11 forever; copies of all insurance policies; names of
12 sheriff's staff; professional qualifications; incorporated
13 entities involved in providing services to the mentally
14 disabled; statistical analysis; et cetera.
09:45:14 15 Going over to the sheriff's subpoena: Duplicate
16 original copies of any and all digital video of his arrest
17 on February 2, '17; a list of all sheriff personnel that
18 were present; e-mails, anything to do with this matter;
19 training manuals, studies, reports; on and on. He's asking
20 for personnel files of sheriff employees, policies and
21 practices regarding booking photographs.
09:45:52 22 I -- I say this out loud to you and for the record
23 so that I'm sure you understand that these different items
24 that he has requested have no relevance to why we are in
25 this courtroom today, which is his trial on a criminal

40
1 matter that allegedly took place in this county and has
2 nothing to do with New Hanover Sheriff or the New Hanover
3 Board of Commissioners.
09:46:23 4 The one matter that he has asked for that, I
5 guess, anybody could argue is in some way related at all to
6 this criminal prosecution that you to hear today, is under
7 the sheriff's subpoena inventory of items, number 14:
09:46:46 8 [as read] Notice is hereby by given that the
9 defense requests, time being of essence, duplicate
10 original copies of any and all digital video,
11 audio files made on February 2, '17 related to
12 Mr. Fuller's arrest and detention by the sheriff's
13 office.
09:47:02 14 Mr. Fuller has, over the last year or so, sent me
15 I don't know how many e-mails, dozens of e-mails, asking
16 for this. And the first six or eight times he sent me that
17 e-mail, I told him as clearly as I knew how that the law
18 did not allow the sheriff's office nor me to give that to
19 him. In my written objection -- number 6 under my written
20 objection -- it states:
09:47:45 21 [as read] The request to Sheriff McMahon to
22 furnish copies of sheriff's department videos of
23 defendant's arrest is prohibited by General
24 Statute 132-1.4(a), unless specifically ordered by
25 a superior court judge. Defendant has been

41
1 directed by the undersigned on numerous occasions
2 to the AOC forms which he may use to request such
3 an order of release.
09:48:08 4 I have a copy of those forms. I'm assuming Your
5 Honor is familiar with them.
09:48:13 6 THE COURT: I am.
09:48:14 7 MS. HUFFMAN: Without our getting into the --
8 the -- the appropriateness of these forms and the process,
9 it's what the law is. And I told Mr. Fuller many times --
10 at least three or four times very specifically in response
11 to his e-mails that I couldn't give him these DVD tapes,
12 that there were -- I cited the statute. I told him there
13 were AOC forms that he could use; that he needed to go to
14 the clerk of court's office and ask them for the forms; and
15 he could fill out the forms and that would begin the
16 process. And I told him this in an e-mail at least three or
17 four times. And after that, I stopped telling him.
09:49:04 18 I -- I have the forms that can be used, but the
19 problem is that the form says it has to be filed in the
20 county where the recording is made and I guess heard by a
21 superior court judge there. And that's why I repeatedly
22 told Mr. Fuller, "Go to the clerk of court's office and
23 fill out the forms in Wilmington." And we could have had
24 that hearing, and I probably a year ago given him the CD.
09:49:37 25 This is the only thing that he has asked for that

42
DISCUSS NHSO OBJECTION & MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENAS/FULLER
1 is in any way related. I mean, if he sues New Hanover
2 County Sheriff's Office, some of these things he is asking
3 for could be part of discovery. There are many things he
4 asked for that are privileged, but they arguably would be
5 related to that lawsuit. But they are just not related to
6 today. So I don't know what else to do. I -- I'm somewhat
7 concerned that after I leave here today that he is going to
8 try to issue another subpoena for a sheriff personnel from
9 New Hanover to appear here tomorrow or -- and I would ask
10 Your Honor to -- to accept my standing objection and direct
11 that he not do that in this proceeding.
09:50:33 12 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Fuller --
09:50:38 14 MR. FULLER: Yes. So my response -- I think,
15 first of all, we need to go back and -- and if -- certainly
16 I'm not testifying at my own trial, but we do now have a
17 federal lawsuit that's been going for five months. There is
18 a big word that came out on the 3rd of August allowing the
19 case to be expanded to new parties and new theories, and
20 that's going to be the New Hanover County. And it's very
21 related to this case, and -- and the information that I have
22 requested is related to that.
09:51:08 23 And I don't like to give out defense theories if
24 we go to trial tomorrow, but I will do so because I'm kind
25 of under the pressure to do so. But essentially, I would

43
1 argue, as the defense of this, this is a malicious
2 prosecution by LGBT activists. They wanted a very public
3 humiliation of me, and so the cyberstalking -- the word is
4 "stalking." So when you exercise these warrants, it's my
5 understanding that, for someone like me that would have no
6 criminal background, the normal procedure would be a
7 summons.
09:51:39 8 But for some reason -- and we don't know why --
9 there were five police cars sent to my office or my
10 workplace, properties I own. I was -- I mean, it was just
11 a huge scene with -- with people with guns. You had -- I
12 mean, this video is absolutely wild. You have sort of the
13 long gun people with body armor, I mean. So I definitely
14 think that the punishment and -- having talked to a number
15 of attorneys -- has already been served in my humiliation.
09:52:07 16 And then in addition, New Hanover County, when
17 they arrested me, had the brilliant idea to look in my back
18 pocket, like I have now; and I have medicine for the mental
19 disorder. And they actually arrested me for a narcotics
20 violation for one pill. And so all this was in a release
21 to the media. I was trying to get an appointment regarding
22 a U.S. Senate confirmation so it basically destroyed all
23 that work at -- at HUD. And so, yes, it certainly is -- is
24 a defense theory to say there was malicious prosecution
25 that got out of control in this arrest and all this stuff.

44
1 And quickly the charges were dropped. They had no merit.
2 They were dropped within weeks on that.
09:52:46 3 But -- but yes, it is very relevant to -- to this
4 case to have all those police tapes and to understand that
5 the relationship between, did Orange County basically ask
6 that I be roughed up in the arrest? I have also found out
7 that the arrest warrant numbers, when they were issued,
8 there was another person that has the exact same number
9 that looks like me that's a felon that is from a
10 neighboring county. So I just wonder, is that just a
11 mistake or perhaps that was an intentional issuance that
12 would result in the massive police response?
09:53:25 13 And, you know, it -- it was just devastating to
14 me. I was suspended from my work due to this. And my
15 reputation was -- was left in tatters. And so I think it's
16 very relevant when you are talking about a criminal trial
17 to start to look at the arrest process. And certainly we
18 have information. I have requested it in subpoenas in the
19 district court trial. There were -- no objections were
20 made. I'm coming in expecting the documents to be there.
21 They aren't here. So I would say that the county has a
22 past history of violating lawfully issued subpoenas and
23 sort of playing games and -- and not being very truthful in
24 their responses. I -- I would regard them as having a lot
25 of legal liability and just trying to shield themselves.

45
COURT'S RULING ON NHSO OBJECTION & MOTION TO QUASH SUBPOENAS
09:54:11 1 COURT'S RULING
09:54:11 2 THE COURT: All right. The Court, having
3 considered the arguments of both parties, and keeping in
4 mind the issues that are relevant in this particular case,
5 and based on the defendant's forecast of what evidence he
6 seeks to elicit from Edward McMahon and Haywood White, the
7 Court finds that the subpoenas are not -- that they do not
8 target witnesses who have any relevant or material evidence
9 to provide to the defense in this case. And, therefore, the
10 motion -- the objection to the subpoenas is sustained. The
11 motion to quash the subpoenas of Edward McMahon and Haywood
12 White, the III is allowed. They will not be compelled to
13 attend this trial.
09:55:19 14 Mr. Fuller, this doesn't have anything to do with
15 any other lawsuit that you might have. This ruling only
16 applies to this case. All right.
09:55:30 17 Okay. I'm not going to direct him not to issue
18 any more subpoenas. But, Mr. Fuller, unless you are able
19 to forecast evidence that's admissible and relevant and
20 material to your defense in this case, it's likely that
21 those subpoenas will be quashed as well. And I might just
22 do it on my own motion. I will allow you to have a
23 standing objection, but I'm not going to order him not to
24 do it. Okay.
09:56:02 25 MS. HUFFMAN: Yes, sir.

46
09:56:03 1 THE COURT: Thank you. What's next for the State?
09:56:08 2 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, Mr. Fuller has filed a
3 motion to dismiss.
09:56:12 5 MR. COURLANG: And the State would ask that that
6 be heard.
09:56:14 7 THE COURT: All right. I have spent a
8 considerable amount of time reading Mr. Fuller's brief and
9 reading the State's brief, and I am prepared to hear your
10 oral arguments.
09:56:25 11 Mr. Fuller, it's your motion. I will hear you
12 first.
09:56:27 14 MR. FULLER: Thank you, Your Honor. And just as a
15 point of information or correction rather, the two
16 individuals were never subpoenaed. It was just some
17 records. There never was any persons to appear here.
09:56:38 18 THE COURT: Okay. That's -- that's a fair
19 distinction. The subpoenas that are directed to those
20 people to produce records are quashed --
09:56:48 21 MR. FULLER: Yeah. So I will start -- I will
22 stand up here.
09:56:50 23 THE COURT: -- without prejudice for you to seek
24 those -- information in other lawsuits, just not this one.
25 All right. Go ahead.

47
DFT ARGUMENT MOTION TO DISMISS - FULLER
09:56:56 1 MR. FULLER: Yeah. It will be our fourth lawsuit
2 to go back to the county, but I will do that.
09:57:02 3 Okay. So -- so thank you for reading over that
4 memorandum. It's very long.
09:57:08 5 THE COURT: I found it to be especially well
6 written.
09:57:10 7 MR. FULLER: Thank you. It -- and I do want to
8 give the compliment to Brett Berne. He is a graduate
9 student at the University of North Carolina, and I think he
10 is a brilliant mind, and it did also have some ghost writing
11 from a Professor Eugene Volokh at UCLA Law School. He's the
12 guy that knocked down cyberbullying law.
09:57:40 13 THE COURT REPORTER: Stop. From Eugene...
09:57:40 14 MR. FULLER: Eugene Volokh, V-O-L-K-R, (sic).
15 It's a Ukrainian name. Eugene Volokh; yeah, he is a pretty
16 cool guy.
09:57:47 17 But -- yeah, I -- I will just give you a -- maybe
18 a few pages, kind of a brief -- and we can start talking
19 about it. I just wanted to say from the outset, having --
20 this will be actually the third time we have had oral
21 arguments.
09:58:01 22 THE COURT: Oh, if you don't mind, I meant to put
23 something on the record about that. Of course you had an
24 argument about this in district court, and you have appealed
25 your conviction so that's de novo.

48
09:58:10 1 It's my understanding from reading the record that
2 you did argue this motion before Judge Holt. She, I think,
3 based on your competency being called into question at that
4 time, reserved ruling on the motion, took it under
5 advisement. And then in the interim, you filed a lawsuit
6 against her; and she decided that she should recuse herself
7 from your case. And so she is not able to enter an order.
8 Ordinarily, it would be up to her to do that; but under the
9 circumstances of this case, I'm going to, in the exercise
10 of my discretion, hear arguments over again. And I'll
11 decide. All right?
09:58:48 12 MR. FULLER: Sure. Sure, sure. Yeah.
09:58:52 14 MR. FULLER: The point I was making, having been
15 through this, some ground rules that I would hope maybe the
16 Court could adhere to is that we -- we haven't gone to trial
17 yet, so we haven't had an evidentiary hearing. So I get
18 real upset and do not wish that any of the e-mails that I
19 have been accused of -- of writing, that none of those be
20 referred to in any definitive way.
09:59:15 21 THE COURT: All right. Well, let me -- let me
22 help you with that, because that's an important point that
23 you make. You have made a motion to dismiss basically on
24 two separate grounds. One is that this statute is facially
25 unconstitutional. So that doesn't have anything to do with

49
1 anything that you did or didn't do. And the other one is
2 that it's unconstitutional as applied to you. I'm just
3 going to go ahead and tell you: I can't decide whether this
4 statute is unconstitutional as applied to you until I hear
5 the State's evidence. So I -- my intention would be -- and
6 I hope you will go along with it -- I will hear your
7 arguments about the as-applied Constitutional challenge at
8 the close of the State's evidence when I actually know what
9 the evidence is.
10:00:00 10 Does that seem fair enough to you?
10:00:02 11 MR. FULLER: Yes. That's exactly what I was
12 hoping.
10:00:04 13 THE COURT: Okay. Then let's stick with the -- as
14 the -- as the facial unconstitutional challenge --
10:00:10 16 THE COURT: -- at this point.
10:00:11 17 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yes. So let's go ahead and
18 get into that. So I'll just summarize a bit here. So we
19 essentially argue dismissal for four reasons. The first
20 three are all based on facial reasons, and I think the last
21 one was as applies. So the first one -- and I'm just going
22 to -- and I like to call the law by its name, the
23 cyberstalking law, is unconstitutionally vague for two
24 reasons; first, it fails to give notice, and, second, it
25 invites arbitrary (indiscernable word). So this is a very

50
1 important --
10:00:41 2 THE COURT REPORTER: It invites arbitrary?
10:00:41 3 MR. FULLER: It invites arbitrary enforcement --
10:00:41 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Enforcement.
10:00:41 5 MR. FULLER: -- by LGBT-friendly police forces
6 like UNC Chapel Hill police force.
10:00:48 7 THE COURT: And, Mr. Fuller, I want you to
8 understand, you are not under any time pressure. I don't
9 want you to feel under the gun. We are not in any hurry, so
10 feel free to take your time; all right?
10:00:57 11 MR. FULLER: Okay. Sure. Thank you so much.
10:00:59 12 So -- and it is -- and I must say, it's just so --
13 such an honor to be here. And I was sitting behind the
14 victim of the murder yesterday; and, wow, it was just
15 amazing within the space what goes on in people's lives.
16 It's really remarkable. I have learned so much in
17 observing.
10:01:16 18 But back to our more -- our case on -- related to
19 free speech. So cyberstalking law, unconstitutionally
20 vague. So I think often -- the way I'm going to try to
21 talk about this is in various parables.
10:01:33 22 So when we discuss this -- this first issue
23 here -- let me stop for a moment, and I will give you the
24 outline, and then I will go into it. So the first -- the
25 first case we are going to talk about is this notion of

51
1 vagueness. And the second, we are going to get into the
2 cyberstalking law being too broad and by its very nature
3 acting as a block against a lot of free speech. And then
4 the third is this notion of content based -- and I still
5 get a little confused. It's very delicate, legal issue.
6 But essentially, I think that that argument relates to
7 being objective or subjective. We want the law to be
8 very -- more scientific or engineering (sic) and not so
9 able to be manipulated but -- by certain individual
10 interests.
10:02:30 11 So to get back to this first notion of being
12 unconstitutionally vague. Okay. So what we are talking
13 about is failure to give notice, inviting arbitrary
14 enforcement. So a great example of this would be, let's
15 say I want to send out 600 e-mails that criticize
16 Transgender Theory; and I have sent them to all the members
17 of the North Carolina Senate, the North Carolina House of
18 Representatives, the Lieutenant Governor James Gardner's
19 staff, and I have done all these e-mails -- I used to be in
20 politics. And so we are sending all this out.
10:03:09 21 And we -- the person -- we will call him William
22 here. William ends up getting arrested because one person
23 complained. And this is sort of the fascinating issue
24 because you send out 600 e-mails and only one person
25 complained, you would have about a .3 percent claim of

52
1 criminal conduct. But the way the law is applied, it's
2 applied individually on that instance. And so when we are
3 talking about unconstitutionally vague and fails to give
4 notice, the only reason -- it -- it's hard for -- for me,
5 someone sending an e-mail to -- to have an understanding of
6 what annoys another person until I have annoyed them. And
7 so that's what this breaks down to.
10:03:55 8 If I don't want to get charged for rape, I don't
9 rape women; if I don't (sic) get charged for bank
10 robberies, I don't commit bank robberies. It's pretty
11 clear. But I don't really know what annoys and -- and/or
12 embarrasses every other person in the world. And so the
13 only way to be certain of not getting charged for
14 cyberstalking is just never to communicate at all through
15 electronic means because this is -- this sort of crime
16 is -- is based on a complaint. So out of that 600 people,
17 the one guy that I e-mailed, one person complains, they
18 have a -- perhaps a very friendly police force and they are
19 going to get charged and hauled off to jail. So -- so this
20 is the notion of vagueness and how it can be very
21 dangerous, especially when you people who have disabilities
22 because they can get --
10:04:48 23 THE COURT REPORTER: Wait a minute. You are
24 talking so fast that I cannot understand what you are
25 saying.

53
10:04:48 1 MR. FULLER: When you start taking people to jail
2 in an arbitrary manner, it can be quite dangerous because
3 some of these people might have mental disabilities where
4 they might have additional encounters with police that are
5 related to additional charges. And so you can kind of get
6 into a situation where you might have a spiral. So the --
7 the police power should be used very sparingly, especially
8 in notions of communications.
10:05:18 9 And I will say, as someone that's spent a lot of
10 time -- I'm a graduate -- went to grad school at MIT and
11 did a lot of work in computer science. I have a patent in
12 that field -- I just want to say that when we are talking
13 about e-mail here, what is e-mail? All e-mail is, is --
14 is -- at the bit level, it's just a sequence of -- of
15 pluses and negatives or -- that's it. And I think it's
16 very important to understand that because the annoying or
17 embarrassing, the anger is -- is when you read it and
18 respond, based on your own personal experience; right?
10:05:54 19 The actual sending people a bunch of digital data
20 is just, you know, positive signs and negative signs that,
21 once it's sort of made sense in our own mind, that's when
22 we get mad. It's going to be getting mad based on our
23 subjective response. And I think that that's an important
24 notice, that when we think about this law, the way it's
25 typically been used, this cyberstalking law, this section

54
1 is kind of a catchall; and it's been successfully used in
2 superior court prosecutions for things like revenge porn,
3 where you would have a man and woman break up and the guy
4 has legally filmed these -- these sexual tapes in his
5 house, which you can do legally, but he is using -- he is
6 now disseminating them to third parties in a malicious way
7 that's not a matter of informing the public of a -- of an
8 event. It's -- it's a real maliciousness that does cause
9 annoyment (sic) or embarrassment.
10:07:05 10 Another case in which this -- this Section (b)(2)
11 has been used, another sort of strange catchall was, again,
12 in a -- in a divorce in which you have a family pet that
13 the male has bought, but the woman's got it, and then the
14 male threatens to kill it. And it's an interesting thing
15 that pets are, of course, personal property. So to
16 threaten to destroy a piece of personal property that you
17 bought, it's really hard to find much of a prosecution for
18 that, except for this: That you are going to annoy someone
19 by threatening to kill a family pet. So I would say it's
20 definitely sort of a stretch, but it is unconstitutionally
21 vague, the language. And it can certainly be used by
22 university police departments.
10:07:51 23 And it's another thing -- let's talk a moment
24 about university police departments. I happened to look
25 up -- we have UNC's representative here, one of their head

55
1 counsel's back there. But looking up what is the
2 university police department and what is their mission --
3 and it turns out under the statute law that they are the
4 proverbial slave of two masters. They are to have the full
5 police power of a state officer, like a state trooper; but
6 they also follow university policy and enforce it.
10:08:22 7 And Margaret Spellings, who is the President of
8 the UNC system, has come out very strongly supporting
9 transgender rights and saying that they are going to
10 protect them, which is very interesting because that police
11 department follows, by statute law, what she says. And she
12 has had depositions on transgender issues and says, "I am
13 the CEO. Everyone in the University must follow these
14 policies. These are absolute binding policies that the
15 rights will be protected." And that would, of course,
16 include their -- I suppose their emotional well-being and
17 their desire not to be annoyed. So I have given a pretty
18 good example here of the dangers of being
19 unconstitutionally vague.
10:09:08 20 Let's get into a discussion briefly of -- of -- of
21 being too broad. Okay. And -- and the issue here is you
22 are going to have a law that is so broad, section E, of
23 course, in this law says it doesn't apply to Constitutional
24 protections. But, of course, that means you have to appeal
25 the thing all the way up basically to the Supreme Court

56
1 because most lawyers will say that places like district
2 court are not really set up to even investigate
3 Constitutional law. So that becomes a real problem because
4 it's just ignored. And it's -- the cyberstalking law is
5 very broad.
10:09:50 6 You have in this rebuttal by the State, they
7 talk -- and this is kind of a funny topic, but I will
8 mention it here -- that apparently the recipients of these
9 e-mails were really mad that I had sent them. Some
10 research that says that semen is good for women's health;
11 but, actually, there was a big study at the State
12 University of New York that found that exactly was the
13 case, that there are all these sort of antidepressant
14 properties that make women happier.
10:10:22 15 And so I would say that the -- that sort of stuff
16 is absolute -- it's scholarship. It's being communicated
17 to another scholar and that, if there is an academic debate
18 here, it's really insane to be able to have a -- someone
19 that's sort of losing an academic debate to be able to
20 resort to having someone thrown in jail and charged. So I
21 would say definitely the cyberstalking law, it's too broad;
22 and it blocks a lot of scholarly debate that would go on.
10:10:54 23 And in that case, the story about semen being good
24 for women's health was reported all over the world. And
25 NBC, the BBC, they all covered this story. And on that

57
1 point, I will say I studied the -- if you've ever heard the
2 Masters and Johnson research for sexuality at Washington
3 University of St. Louis, that's where I did my
4 undergraduate. And I took a whole year of human sexuality,
5 so I would consider myself to be a little bit of an expert
6 in that field and able to, of course, engage in a robust
7 debate with the UNC scholars.
10:11:27 8 The third prong of attack here on this notion of
9 this unconstitutionality gets into content based. And that
10 phrase "annoying or embarrassing" is a really bad phrase to
11 use in the law because -- and under Supreme Court
12 precedent, we have to be objective. We can't be
13 subjective. So if we can go around and arrest people for
14 being annoying, then, I mean, our president certainly would
15 be in the docks quite frequently. So I think that this
16 "annoying or embarrassing" phrase is really bad. And it's
17 been struck down in numerous other laws by Volokh and his
18 crew out of UCLA.
10:12:16 19 I think I pretty much hit most of the points. I'm
20 ready to go ahead and turn it over to hear rebuttal.
10:12:22 21 THE COURT: Okay. I just -- one thing I'm curious
22 about: I'm, of course, bound by the precedent of our
23 appellate courts. It appears to me that State v. Camp that
24 was decided by our North Carolina Court of Appeals in
25 1990 -- excuse me, 1982 -- dealt with a statute that's for

58
1 the most part or for every part indistinguishable from this
2 statute. The only difference is it talks about telephone
3 communications instead of e-mail communications; otherwise,
4 it's identical. And our North Carolina Court of Appeals has
5 found that that statute was not void for vagueness, that it
6 was not overbroad.
10:13:10 7 So are you arguing that I should rule contrary to
8 the Court of Appeals or do you have some method of
9 distinguishing the Camp case?
10:13:21 10 MR. FULLER: Sure. Sure. I can do that for you.
11 So I'm not familiar with the Camp case. I am familiar with
12 the U.S. Supreme Court case on telephone harassment that
13 came out of California that I would imagine is very similar.
14 And in that case -- and there's been several others
15 involving telephone harassment. And it -- it did find, yes,
16 that telephones can be regulated in a special way because
17 particularly the telephone, especially in that time in the
18 '80s, would have been in your house. And so when someone
19 calls you repeatedly in your house, it becomes an invasion
20 of, like, the castle doctrine, of a certain expectation of
21 quiet enjoyment.
10:14:00 22 E-mail is a very different media. You choose to
23 open it. When you choose to open it, you are choosing to
24 turn those bits into words and to be rendered in terms of
25 computer science. That's a conscious choice. I mean, you

59
1 just get the e-mail. You are choosing to open it up. And
2 it's all going to come out in the federal court; but I --
3 being an MIT guy, I actually have -- and it's perfectly
4 legal -- in some of the e-mails I use, I have these secret
5 things. And it's important for you all to learn about
6 this. They're called spacer.gifs. And what that is, is --
10:14:35 7 THE COURT REPORTER: They're called what?
10:14:35 8 MR. FULLER: Spacer dot gifs. "Gif" being g-i-f,
9 graphical interchange format.
10:14:39 10 Essentially how this would work was, let's say I
11 wanted to send you an e-mail and track when and where you
12 opened it. It's -- and this is done all the time. People
13 don't understand expanded technologies. So I would send an
14 e-mail that might have a tiny, one-pixel, clear image that
15 you don't even see; but it's named like "Judge Collins."
16 But it's on a server. And so when you open something, a
17 lot of those images are actually not in the e-mail. They
18 are just pulling it from different servers.
10:15:10 19 So when I have a specific little, teeny, one-pixel
20 image that has that person's name on it, I know that he has
21 opened it. So that kind of makes sense now. I'm tracking
22 that in that server log. And so in some of the e-mails I
23 have sent -- I won't say; maybe they are related to this
24 case -- but some of the people might have opened them 900
25 times, which would indicate -- and you also are able to

60
1 show where they are opening it. They are forwarding it to
2 all these people. So it would seem to me that someone --
3 it's very different than the telephone issue because people
4 are -- are willingly opening these things. In some cases,
5 just obsessively opening it and sharing it. And then, I
6 would assume, probably getting feedback and getting more
7 angry.
10:15:56 8 But back to the point you bring up, the telephone
9 harassment. So that statute basically in the Supreme Court
10 case out of California, it was decided that it wasn't the
11 cussing out of the sheriff, that that was fine. It was --
12 it was blocking up the 911 system in this little, tiny
13 town; and the guy would -- this notion of repeatedly -- we
14 are talking about like 300 times a day.
10:16:18 15 There was another case that's very similar in
16 which someone called up the Attorney General, Eric Holder,
17 when he was in the beginning of his career and would call
18 him various -- very unpleasant epitaphs in French from a
19 country in Africa. And -- and the guy was, of course,
20 arrested for -- for cyberstalking and got out of it
21 saying -- well, in that case, it certainly was fighting
22 words -- but it was done remotely.
10:16:52 23 The fighting words, when you get to fighting
24 words, typically to prove it you have to get in into a
25 fight. It's hard to get into a fight with somebody if you

61
STATE'S ARGUMENT MOTION TO DISMISS - COURLANG
1 are not even anywhere near them physically. And
2 essentially and in that case, you had a Romanian that was
3 English as a second language. His family had been
4 deported.
10:17:08 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Slow down. Slow down.
10:17:09 6 MR. FULLER: Okay. There often is a back story of
7 why someone might call up the Attorney General and give
8 racial epitaphs that it's -- the person in that case didn't
9 speak English very well, and his family had been deported.
10 He is just lawfully expressing frustration in this case.
11 And that -- that -- my understanding is that these laws are
12 going to be valid when they start to impair the
13 communication ability of that phone or the 911 system. It's
14 not --
10:17:33 15 THE COURT: Okay. I appreciate that distinction.
16 That makes sense to me. Okay. All right.
10:17:38 17 Let me hear what the State has to say.
10:17:42 20 With regards to the vagueness, overbreadth issues,
21 we do have State v. Camp, which Your Honor has alluded to.
22 I can provide a copy to Mr. Fuller at this time. He
23 already has a copy from my motion yesterday.
10:18:02 24 We just want to repeat -- this is a Court of
25 Appeals case, precedential value to this Court here; and

62
1 these two statutes are exactly the same.
10:18:11 2 THE COURT: Well, what do you say about his
3 distinction that there is a Constitutionally significant
4 distinction between making a telephone call and sending an
5 e-mail?
10:18:20 6 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I would say that there
7 is -- they are analogous in many ways. They both are ways
8 to intrude on a person's home or private space. As
9 Mr. Fuller said, you can choose to open an e-mail. You can
10 also choose to answer a phone or not to answer a phone in
11 the same way you can just open the e-mail or not to answer
12 an e-mail. I would submit that that is the same, exact
13 thing that occurs when someone is receiving these particular
14 communications. In State v. Camp, they didn't necessarily
15 say that the plugging up of the phone lines at the time it
16 was only reason behind this. That was a collateral
17 consequence of the defendant's harassing communications
18 through the telephone.
10:18:57 19 Additionally, Your Honor, most importantly, the
20 statute here -- we contend -- prohibits conduct, not
21 speech. And -- and State v. Camp on page 4, as I printed
22 it out, the paragraph -- second-to-last paragraph on page 4
23 on the right-hand column. The Court explicitly holds that:
10:19:19 24 [as read] we believe that because GS 14-196(a)(b)
25 (sic) prohibits conduct rather than speech, it

63
1 survives Constitutional challenge.
10:19:30 2 [as read] Statutes prohibiting annoying
3 telephoning were directed at the conduct of using
4 telephones to annoy, offend, terrify, harass
5 others, and not directed at --
10:19:39 6 THE COURT REPORTER: Not directed at?
10:19:39 7 MR. COURLANG: -- prohibiting communication of
8 thoughts or ideas.
10:19:42 9 Your Honor, we contend that e-mail is the same
10 thing here. In this particular statute in question
11 14-196.3 subsection (b)(2) prohibits conduct not speech.
10:19:59 12 As held by Camp, these statutes prohibit annoying
13 e-mail communications directed at the conduct of using
14 e-mail to annoy, offend, terrify or harass others. It's
15 not directed at prohibiting Mr. Fuller's communications of
16 thoughts or ideas. He has many avenues to do so,
17 especially with the Internet today. Mr. Fuller can go to
18 the public square. He could go to UNC's campus in front of
19 Silent Sam and say these things. The State is interested
20 in prohibiting this specific, narrow conduct that he is
21 directing at individual people, the same way that the State
22 v. Camp court was trying to prohibit the conduct of using
23 the telephone to annoy, threaten, harass, threaten (sic).
10:20:47 24 And, Your Honor, keeping with State v. Camp, we
25 contend that on page 5 of 5, the third paragraph down, the

64
1 Court of Appeals spoke of the vagueness question. And the
2 Court of Appeals said, quote:
10:21:04 3 [as read] Defendants' argument that
4 GS § 14-196(a)(3) is unconstitutionally vague is
5 also without merit because the statute adequately
6 warns of the activity it prohibits.
10:21:17 7 Similar to the statute in question today, this
8 statute adequately warns of the activity it prohibits. One
9 cannot electronically mail or electronically communicate to
10 another repeatedly whether or not conversation ensues for
11 the purpose of abusing, annoying, threatening, terrifying,
12 harassing or embarrassing any person.
10:21:38 13 If Mr. Fuller wanted to get his point across
14 through an e-mail, he can send an e-mail to that person
15 with all of his points. It could be as long as he wants it
16 to be. What happens is when he gets into the repeated
17 communications that abuse, annoy, threaten, terrify,
18 harass, or embarrass that person, then we come into the
19 purview of this particular statute. Reading this statute,
20 Mr. Fuller could annoy, threaten, terrify, harass,
21 embarrass a person one time and not come under the purview
22 of this statute. It's only when it's repeated.
10:22:13 23 Your Honor, we contend that with that particular
24 language, just as in the State v. Camp case, this statute
25 adequately warns of exactly what is prohibited by this

65
1 particular statute and the conduct that is prohibited by
2 this statute.
10:22:27 3 And, Your Honor, we contend that Mr. Fuller talked
4 about scholarly debates. The First Amendment protects
5 scholarly debates, and the State does not disagree. The
6 First Amendment is meant to protect these public debates,
7 but this statute does not impede that particular issue.
8 Here we have an issue where no conversation ensued. It was
9 one sided, sending e-mails repeatedly to people without
10 response, whether or not conversation ensues. These are
11 private e-mails. They are not in the public square. They
12 are not done with the attempt to enhance or further the
13 public debate on any public issues. They are just
14 one-sided, harassing communications towards another person
15 with no ensuing conversation. The State contends that
16 there is no furthering of any public debate through this
17 particular conduct that Mr. Fuller is indeed engaging in.
10:23:23 18 THE COURT: Okay. Before I forget --
10:23:26 20 THE COURT: -- I don't know how to pronounce your
21 last name.
10:23:30 22 MR. COURLANG: It's Courlang, sir.
10:23:32 23 THE COURT: Courlang.
10:23:33 25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. I like to

66
1 pronounce people's names correctly. All right. Okay. I
2 have read your brief. I get it.
10:23:40 4 THE COURT: Okay. It's your motion, so I'm going
5 to let you respond to his argument. Please don't make any
6 new arguments. I have read your brief, too; but if you want
7 to comment on what he just said, that's fine.
10:23:54 9 MR. FULLER: Yeah. Sure. I will just respond to
10 that briefly. So, yeah, I mean, I definitely think we
11 should remember that the case precedent that's been brought
12 up we have been discussing is from the 1980s; and I just
13 don't think it's relevant at all. There is a whole lot of
14 case law in the Internet, and I'm quite familiar with it.
15 And I will just bring up one of them that I was quite amazed
16 that there's a group called -- out of San Francisco called
17 the Electronic Frontier Foundation. And it's the group that
18 represent WikiLeaks, and they have been helping me a bit in
19 this case.
10:24:27 20 And when the Internet first sort of came out and
21 people started using it -- I think it was -- George Bush
22 was in office -- there was a law that came about. It was
23 the Communications Decency Act. And amongst other things,
24 it prevented the sending of pornography to children.
25 And -- and that actually got struck down. And being a

67
1 parent of four small children, I can definitely say got
2 struck down for very good reason, and that you are actually
3 legally allowed to send pornography to children. And the
4 reason is children should have a parent that's monitoring
5 their computer. The parents are in charge of that.
10:25:11 6 You -- you can't go and try to blame the sender,
7 you know, if -- let's say an adult sent a porn link or some
8 sort of pornography image to another adult and the kid
9 happened to be on the dad's computer, and you can't go back
10 and charge the sender. The parent ultimately has to be the
11 police. We can't have the government policing the whole
12 Internet, even for issues in which there been have been
13 pornography viewed by children, that it -- ultimately, that
14 was a parental issue; and that it is just not a matter of
15 the courts to get involved because the results of that, if
16 that law were able to stay, would be immense because you
17 would essentially be having the police of all these
18 different police departments, UC Berkeley police -- you
19 would have everyone being able to police the Internet. And
20 so we just can't have that. We would have -- our president
21 would be thrown in jail constantly. I think he has annoyed
22 repeatedly.
10:26:13 23 And this other question I would address, we are
24 talking about this notion of "repeatedly." I don't think
25 even in the State's evidence you are going to find any

68
1 repeated e-mails; that it's just different e-mails; might
2 be a followup saying, "Well, here's another article to this
3 point." So I wouldn't even say there is any repeated
4 communications at all. In the sense of -- of -- of the
5 case law, that's usually 500 communications of the same
6 message. And so that -- that's another distinction that --
7 that I would bring up there.
10:26:39 8 THE COURT: Okay. Remind me of that when you come
9 to your as-applied challenge. We are just talking about the
10 facial Constitutionality of this statute.
10:26:48 12 Now, I am going to rule that the distinction
13 between a telephone communication and an electronic
14 communication is not material for my determination of the
15 Constitutional issue and that I am, therefore, bound by the
16 Court of Appeals opinion in State v. Camp; and the
17 defendant's motion to dismiss based on vagueness and
18 over-breadth is denied.
10:27:15 19 I'm also going to find that the statute does not
20 police the content of the communication. That's what we
21 mean by content based. It doesn't matter what the message
22 is in the e-mail on the face of this statute. And also, it
23 doesn't matter -- and I want the State to remember this
24 going forward -- it's not an element of this crime that the
25 person who was communicated with was actually annoyed or

69
1 harassed. The only thing the State has to prove -- but
2 they do have to prove this -- is that it was your intention
3 in sending these e-mails to annoy or harass this person.
4 Whether they were, in fact, annoyed or harassed is perhaps
5 some circumstantial evidence which the jury might consider
6 to determine what your intent was.
10:28:10 7 That's what it means by not being content based.
8 If you had just e-mailed somebody 5,000 times, you know,
9 "All good men must come to the aid of their country," if
10 you did that for innocent reasons, you are not guilty of a
11 crime. If you did that to annoy the person, then you are.
12 So the -- the determination here is actually a factual
13 determination of why you did it. And that -- factual
14 determinations in court are made by jurors, so I'm going to
15 let a jury make that decision. So your motion is denied.
10:28:45 16 Now, what's next?
10:28:47 17 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I do not know if
18 Mr. Fuller has any more motions that he filed.
10:28:52 19 THE COURT: Do you want me to rule on any more
20 motions before we start the trial?
10:28:57 21 MR. FULLER: I -- I thought that we were going to
22 go into the fourth prong, which is as-applied because you,
23 at the beginning of your session this morning --
10:29:06 25 MR. FULLER: -- talked about that extensive

70
COURT'S RULING ON MOT TO DIS. (FACIAL CONSTITUTIONALITY)
1 psychological study that had been done. And I want to --
10:29:12 2 THE COURT: Well, I'm talking about -- I can't
3 decide whether this statute -- number 1, at the close of the
4 State's evidence, I will decide whether the statute is
5 unconstitutional as applied to the facts of this case. I
6 don't know what they are yet, and you asked me not to get
7 into the facts of the case.
10:29:31 9 THE COURT: And I agree with you about that; I
10 shouldn't do that yet.
10:29:35 11 And then I also have to decide whether the
12 evidence is sufficient to allow a jury to decide whether
13 you have violated this law. And your -- your argument
14 about that you didn't send the same e-mail twice goes to
15 that argument so I don't think there is anything else ripe
16 for determination at this time. But if you have any other
17 pretrial motions, I will entertain them.
10:30:04 18 MR. FULLER: Yes. Perhaps we could take a recess,
19 and I could prepare a one-page motion.
10:30:10 21 MR. FULLER: And this is what it's going to say,
22 the extensive psychological report that -- I had to do all
23 these, as I said, interviews and family interviews. The guy
24 in that report says "his intention is religious." He is --
25 that's the expert's finding. This guy has been before the

71
1 North Carolina Supreme Court. He is one of the best in the
2 state.
10:30:27 3 THE COURT: Expert findings are not binding on
4 juries. It's going to be the duty of 12 citizens of this
5 county to decide whether the State has proven beyond a
6 reasonable doubt what your intention was.
10:30:38 7 MR. FULLER: Sure. Sure. Well, all I'm just
8 saying, I would like to make a motion to have the case
9 thrown out for lack of probable cause because we have
10 already had -- the State's witness has already said the
11 intention was religious, and I don't see how -- how -- how
12 you can go forward.
10:30:52 13 THE COURT: Okay. I will hear you after the
14 recess.
10:30:56 15 While we are at recess, it's not entirely clear to
16 me from reading this file which misdemeanor statement of
17 charges this man was actually convicted on and what it is
18 that confers jurisdiction upon the superior court. So, if
19 you would, clear that up for me because you are going to be
20 bound by the language in your statement of charges.
10:31:15 21 MR. COURLANG: Yes, sir. I can do that.
10:31:17 22 THE COURT: Okay. All right. If you will make
23 sure and share that with him and see if we have any argument
24 about that.
10:31:24 25 We will be in recess for 15 minutes.

72
10:31:28 1 (A recess was taken at 10:31 a.m.)
10:48:41 2 (Court resumed session at 10:48 a.m.)
4 assistant, Beka Rose; Investigator Ross Barbee.)
10:50:07 5 (Defendant entered the courtroom at 10:49 a.m.)
10:50:34 6 THE COURT: Okay. We are back in session. Let
7 the record reflect that Mr. Fuller's present, the State is
8 present, all prospective jurors are absent.
10:50:42 9 First, I took your motion to continue under
10 advisement so I would like to hear your argument as to how
11 in a legal sense it would prejudice you to start the trial
12 today.
10:50:53 13 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, I just filed a new motion
14 just moments ago. Could I --
10:50:57 15 THE COURT: If you want to hear that one first,
16 that's fine. Sure.
10:50:59 17 MR. FULLER: Do you have a copy of this? It's
18 handwritten. And it's entitled: Motion to Dismiss for Lack
19 of Evidence.
10:51:05 22 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yes, I just made this just a
23 moment ago; and I would like to make a motion to dismiss,
24 based upon the Court's earlier rendition regarding Dr.
25 Grotsky's report, your accepting the findings of fact. He

73
DFT ARGUMENT MOTION TO DISMISS/LACK OF EVD. - FULLER
1 makes it very clear. And his phrase was: The defendant --
2 he -- his conclusion, his expert findings -- and, by the
3 way, he was paid for the State (sic). He was not someone I
4 went to see.
10:51:35 6 MR. FULLER: The Court made me do that. It is the
7 expert psychiatrist's criminal profiler that:
10:51:40 8 [as read] The defendant disagreed with Zerden's
9 views on transgenderism and for no other reason
10 was the contact.
10:51:48 11 He also in his findings found that:
10:51:51 12 [as read] Defendant was very intelligent and
13 belonged to a very strict sect of Catholicism
14 called Opus Dei, which means "The work of God."
10:51:56 15 And then goes on to describe some of the beliefs
16 involving human sexuality. And Dr. Grotsky also, in his
17 words, he says that:
10:52:09 18 [as read] The defendant has been involved with
19 this group, --
10:52:17 20 THE COURT REPORTER: Wait. Has been involved --
10:52:17 21 MR. FULLER: -- with Opus Dei for about 12
22 years --
10:52:17 23 And this is important:
10:52:18 24 -- unconditionally accepted the beliefs of the
25 organization.

74
DFT ARGUMENT MOTION TO DISMISS/LACK OF EVD. - FULLER
10:52:23 1 Dr. Grotsky -- Grotsky, and it's spelled
2 G-R-O-T-S-K-Y, Grotsky, also finds:
10:52:28 3 [as read] The defendant has no impairment and
4 has, quote, difficulty expressing emotions in a
5 modulated manner.
10:52:38 6 Therefore, we pray that the Court dismiss this
7 criminal prosecution based upon the State's own expert
8 witness, Dr. Grotsky, that there is just no probable cause
9 to bring the matter to trial.
10:52:50 11 THE COURT: Okay. I just want to make the record
12 clear that I accepted his findings of fact for the purpose
13 of determining whether you are competent to proceed so those
14 findings of fact are not binding on this jury. Unless I
15 allow evidence of that to be presented to this jury, they
16 are not even going to know that, so -- and a motion to
17 dismiss for lack of evidence is more properly addressed at
18 the close of the State's evidence. And I will hear you at
19 the close of the State's evidence as to whether they have
20 presented sufficient evidence of all the elements. So at
21 this point, without prejudice to you, this motion is denied.
10:53:27 22 Now, anything else you want to say about your
23 motion to continue the trial?
10:53:32 25 MR. FULLER: Yes. I would very much urge that we

75
DFT ARGUMENT MOTION TO CONTINUE - FULLER
1 continue the trial to March 2019. I have not been able to
2 prepare for the case. I have no witnesses on my behalf, and
3 I have made a tremendous effort to get witnesses and been
4 fighting just constantly and -- with the clerk, who is a
5 defendant in a separate action. So I -- I would kindly
6 request, so that I could -- the defendant could make a good
7 defense in a extremely complex case in which we already have
8 been aided by several pro bono legal aid groups, namely
9 Alliance For Defending Freedom and the Electronic Frontier
10 Foundation. We need time for these people to digest what's
11 happened today and for me to get information back to them.
12 So showing good cause based on the State's -- Judge
13 Robinson's finding that the State had actually impaired my
14 ability to get witnesses, I think there has been a showing
15 of good cause to continue it.
10:54:48 17 THE COURT: Okay. Based on what I heard today and
18 also based on the arguments that were presented yesterday on
19 both sides, in the exercise of my discretion, your motion to
20 continue is denied.
10:54:58 21 Do we have a jury ready?
10:54:59 22 THE CLERK: They will be ready about 2:00 o'clock.
10:55:03 23 THE COURT: Okay. Well, we don't have a jury
24 until 2:00 o'clock. So is there anything that we can
25 accomplish between now and 2:00 o'clock?

76
DISCUSS STATE MOT. LIM. 1ST AMEND. ARG./COURLANG, FULLER
10:55:10 1 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. If I could make
2 one more motion regarding this case.
10:55:14 4 MR. COURLANG: And we do have another pretrial
5 motion that could be heard until 2:00 o'clock on a different
6 case, Your Honor.
10:55:20 7 THE COURT: That's fine. Hang on. Hang on.
10:55:23 9 MR. COURLANG: The State would just like to make
10 an oral motion in limine just to preclude Mr. Fuller from
11 making any First Amendment arguments to the jury. The State
12 contends that's a question of law to be decided by the
13 Court, not a question of fact. The State believes that any
14 First Amendment arguments to the jury would only confuse the
15 jury and would ask that that not be put in front of the
16 jury, as that is a question to be decided by the Court --
10:55:48 17 (Court reporter interrupted for clarification.)
10:55:48 18 MR. COURLANG: -- as it a question of law.
10:55:50 19 THE COURT: Here is what I'm inclined to do. I
20 think that any argument that you make or testimony that you
21 might provide that would be of the nature of it was your
22 intention to exercise your First Amendment rights, it wasn't
23 your intention to harass or annoy anybody, is perfectly
24 proper. You may not ask this jury to decide that this
25 statute is unconstitutional. That's not their job.

77
DISCUSS STATE MOT. LIM. 1ST AMEND. ARG./COURLANG, FULLER
10:56:18 1 Do you understand the distinction?
10:56:20 2 MR. FULLER: This gets really confusing because
3 the law specifically re -- in Section E, it specifically
4 excludes Constitutional -- that's one of the things that
5 make me crazy.
10:56:30 7 MR. FULLER: So I would say we have to get into it
8 because --
10:56:33 9 THE COURT: Well, and that is one of the things
10 that I will instruct them.
10:56:36 12 THE COURT: That they may not find you -- I will
13 add section E to my instructions to them, but they don't get
14 to determine whether this law is Constitutional. I have
15 already decided that it is on its face, and I will have
16 decided whether it is or is not as applied to this case
17 before the jury goes back to deliberate.
10:56:56 18 So I'm going to let him say what his intention was
19 in sending these e-mails. If he -- and if you get a little
20 bit too far into asking this jury to sort of -- let's see,
21 how would we put it? -- nullify my legal rulings, I'm not
22 going to let you do that. Okay?
10:57:22 23 MR. FULLER: One more question. We have another
24 motion that's been open for a long time, and I kindly
25 request the Court to rule, and that's a motion to dismiss --

78
DFT ARGUMENT DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C. - FULLER
1 let me find the title. I have it here.
10:57:34 3 MR. FULLER: It relates to sua sponte. I have
4 already been found -- the Court has already entered a not
5 guilty verdict in this -- in this -- it's actually in the
6 file.
10:57:43 7 THE COURT: You talking about in one of the cases?
10:57:45 9 MR. FULLER: In this particular
10 number 17 CR 050340, there is a not guilty verdict. You
11 have to dig in there. And that's -- they might have taken
12 it out, but I have got actually photographs. I can show it
13 to you. It certainly was in there at one point, and then
14 there was some sua sponte changes. And so -- let me get
15 this motion. Hold on. It's entitled -- it was filed on
16 August 28th of 2017. The motion is called Notice of
17 Withdrawal of an Appeal from a District Court to a Superior
18 Court for a Trial De Novo. And it's just one paragraph, if
19 I could just read it to you real briefly.
10:58:22 21 MR. FULLER: Okay. It says:
10:58:22 22 [as read] The appellate, Napier Sandford Fuller,
23 pro se, in the above-captioned --
10:58:34 24 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Napier -- excuse me. Mr.
25 Fuller, I can't write that fast.

79
10:58:34 1 MR. FULLER: [as read] The appellate, Napier
2 Sandford Fuller, pro se, in the above-captioned
3 appeal does hereby withdraw said appeal without
4 cost or disbursements.
10:58:44 5 And, Judge, this is what it looks like. You look
6 for all these --
10:58:47 7 THE COURT: I have it.
10:58:48 9 THE COURT: I have it right here in front of me.
10:58:50 10 MR. FULLER: Okay --
10:58:50 11 [as read] Without cause or disbursements before
12 his first scheduled appearance for August the
13 28th, 2017. The appellant now accepts the lower
14 court's adjudication of the case 17 CR 050340 as
15 entered into the record of the clerk of court in a
16 signed judgment by Emergency Judge Catherine C.
17 Stevens of a not guilty verdict reached after a
18 trial in open court on July 20th, 2017. The
19 appellant pro se also requests the clerk of court
20 to update the State's electronic case management
21 system to reflect the signed judgment by emergency
22 Judge Catherine C. Stevens of a not guilty verdict
23 reached in this case on July 20th, 2017.
11:00:01 24 It's my understanding that there was a change
25 about five weeks later, but it is unlawful. You can't have

80
STATE'S ARGUMENT DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C. - COURLANG
1 a judge just go in and change something when it -- when
2 it's what's termed "out of session." And I believe that's
3 what's happened. There has been no investigation or
4 response to my claim here; but this is a double jeopardy
5 issue so it's a real big one.
11:00:37 6 THE COURT: Mr. Courlang, I have in this file a
7 warrant, case number 17CR50340, in which Mr. Fuller was
8 found not guilty.
11:00:57 9 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor --
11:00:58 10 THE COURT: Talk to me about that.
11:00:59 12 MR. COURLANG: Yes, sir. I believe that to be a
13 clerical error in the recordation. At trial, Judge
14 Catherine Stevens found Mr. Fuller guilty in 17~CR~050340 in
15 open court. Mr. Fuller promptly appealed that guilty
16 verdict. Mr. Fuller was found not guilty in 17~CR~50341.
17 That was a second charge for -- under the same statute.
11:01:30 18 THE COURT: That's not what the court file says.
11:01:33 19 MR. COURLANG: And -- if I may approach?
11:01:51 21 THE COURT: Now, there is also a judgment in here,
22 in 50341, finding him not guilty.
11:01:59 23 MR. COURLANG: Correct, Your Honor. As I look at
24 this, I see the plea being not guilty and the verdict being
25 guilty.

81
STATE'S ARGUMENT DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C. - COURLANG
11:02:06 1 THE COURT: In which case number?
11:02:08 2 MR. COURLANG: This is 5 -- 50341. Your Honor, I
3 believe that there was a mixup in the shucks. I believe
4 there was a mixup in the shucks when the clerk recorded it.
5 There were two separate shucks, both of harassing
6 communications. One was toward the victim being Dr. Lisa
7 Zerden, and the other being Dr. Terri Phoenix and --
11:02:48 8 THE COURT: And were these misdemeanor statement
9 of charges only filed in superior court?
11:02:52 10 MR. COURLANG: No, Your Honor. They were filed on
11 his first -- Mr. Fuller's first appearance in district
12 court. I believe it was in April 2017.
11:03:01 13 THE COURT: All right. The April 2017 misdemeanor
14 statement of charges concerning Ms. Phoenix is in 50341.
15 And the one concerning Ms. -- how do you pronounce that last
16 name, Zerden --
11:03:36 17 MR. COURLANG: Yes.
11:03:36 18 THE COURT: -- is in 50340.
11:03:42 19 MR. COURLANG: That is correct, Your Honor.
11:03:43 20 THE COURT: And the judgment is in 50340. Let me
21 see those again, ,please.
11:03:56 22 MR. COURLANG: If I may approach.
11:03:57 23 THE COURT: Yep.
11:04:04 25 MR. COURLANG: And I believe that to be a clerical

82
1 error and a mistake, as in the shucks were switched up. I
2 do think the clerk did correct that clerical error.
3 Mr. Fuller was found guilty in 50340 --
11:04:22 5 MR. COURLANG: -- as to Dr. Zerden.
11:04:25 6 THE COURT: Hang on, Mr. Fuller. I'm trying to
7 figure this out.
11:04:31 8 MR. COURLANG: And, Your Honor, Mr. Fuller's
9 notice of appeal that's written does have that particular
10 number on it as well, the 50340 caption. I believe
11 Mr. Fuller was given proper notice of which case and which
12 defendant -- or which complaining witness in order to
13 prepare his defense.
11:05:51 14 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller.
11:05:52 16 MR. FULLER: Yes. I -- I will just say simply
17 that the clerk has absolutely no authority to go and change
18 judicial orders -- that's a felony crime; that we have a not
19 guilty verdict. It's been signed. It's been entered in
20 this case, and I'm not guilty of it. It's -- it's very
21 clear. That's what the Court found. And the clerk
22 apparently has changed all sorts of stuff so it's hard for
23 them to say, "Well, you filed this," because he has been
24 changing things. The bottom line is: I'm already not
25 guilty on this case so we have to dismiss it.

83
COURT'S RULING ON DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C.
11:06:28 2 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to find that:
3 The warrant for arrest that was issued in 17~CR~50340 was
4 issued on February the 1st, 2017; that that charging
5 instrument was superseded by a misdemeanor statement of
6 charges that was filed in 17~CR~50340 on April the 3rd,
7 2017; that that is the charging instrument upon which
8 Mr. Fuller was tried in district court; and the record
9 indicates that the judge found him guilty after a bench
10 trial in 17~CR~50340; that he timely filed notice of appeal
11 from that judgment, thereby conferring jurisdiction upon the
12 superior court. I find that he was found not guilty in
13 17~CR~50341.
11:07:46 14 Now, the superior court does have jurisdiction
15 over 17 CR -- which is now 17 CRS 50340, the count
16 concerning Ms. Zerden. All right. So your motion to
17 dismiss is denied.
11:08:07 18 I still haven't ruled on your motion to continue,
19 and I would be glad to hear -- or did I? I did. Your
20 motion to continue is denied. So we don't have anything
21 else in this case until 2:00 when we have the jury coming.
22 And if the State has business that I can take care of
23 between now and then, Mr. Fuller, you are excused until
24 2:00 o'clock.
11:08:28 25 MR. FULLER: Thank you.

84
COURT'S RULING ON DISMISS; W/D APPEAL FROM D.C.
11:08:28 1 (A recess was taken for the purposes of this matter at 11:08
2 a.m.)
14:01:06 3 (Court resumed session for the purposes of this matter at
4 2:01 p.m.)
14:01:09 8 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
14:01:18 9 MR. COURLANG: Good afternoon, Your Honor.
14:01:19 10 THE COURT: Good afternoon.
14:01:20 11 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State is prepared
12 to call the matter of Napier Fuller to trial.
14:01:24 13 THE COURT: All right. Has Mr. Fuller been
14 arraigned?
14:01:26 15 MR. FULLER: Yes.
14:01:27 16 MR. COURLANG: I believe he was arraigned at his
17 first appearance back in -- it might have been August of
18 2017.
14:01:33 19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Anything for the
20 State before we call for a jury?
14:01:36 21 MR. COURLANG: The State has nothing further.
14:01:37 22 MR. FULLER: I have a few housekeeping points,
23 sir.
14:01:40 24 THE COURT: Okay. Sure.
14:01:41 25 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yeah. Obviously, I was very

85
DISCUSS FULLER'S SUBPOENAS, WITNESSES/FULLER
1 upset earlier that we spent all this time with this 50-page
2 motion to dismiss with -- (inaudible words) -- and it's all
3 been thrown out. And I --
14:01:53 4 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. "With this
5 50-page motion to dismiss"?
14:01:53 6 MR. FULLER: Yes. That all that research, that we
7 have lost every, single motion; and I just wanted to -- to
8 get back for a moment about the ADA accommodations.
14:02:04 11 MR. FULLER: That I feel that -- my emotional
12 feeling is that the Court is very much against me. I think
13 we had some really solid arguments. We have lost every,
14 single one; and I appear to be going into a jury trial
15 without any witnesses whatsoever.
14:02:24 16 And during the break, I was reviewing the U.S.
17 Department of Justice -- some of their documents on how ADA
18 Title II should be applied to the criminal justice system.
19 And I wanted to remind the Court that reasonable
20 modifications to policies and procedures should be granted
21 with the goal of avoiding unnecessary involvement of people
22 with mental disabilities within the court system as well as
23 making things more accessible. And I wanted the Court to
24 be aware that I had tried to get some more subpoenas issued
25 yesterday, but the clerk refused.

86
14:03:01 1 And the superior court judge is perfectly capable
2 of signing these documents; and if you wanted to have more
3 of a collaborative effort -- in -- in other words, what I
4 would like to propose -- I would be ready to go to Court
5 tomorrow if I could have two witnesses for character. And
6 I have been reading all about character witnesses; and I
7 think it should be allowed in this case because I have to
8 prove that I am really religion and political about taking
9 a stance so I'm going to need maybe a Catholic priest to
10 come and speak.
14:03:27 11 And so I -- I'm saying if I could have two people
12 to speak on my behalf, as well as the Grotsky report that
13 can be introduced, I'm willing to go to trial. But if I'm
14 not able to have that, having looked over the case
15 precedent, I'm going to have to declare that this does not
16 meet the federal standards and not participate anymore in
17 the case without an emergency injunction to federal court,
18 which would immediately, if that is filed, make it
19 impossible for this judge to preside.
14:03:52 20 And I don't want to do that. I want to go and get
21 this thing resolved. But I must say that I -- I can't
22 proceed. In looking at case precedent, if I proceed into a
23 case that's completely against me in every regard, it's
24 very difficult for me to undo that, ;and so that -- it's
25 best for me to say, "I'm not going to participate" and

87
1 we'll handle it in an appeal.
14:04:16 2 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, are you asking me to sign
3 some subpoenas for you? You haven't done that yet. I'm
4 happy to sign some subpoenas for you.
14:04:27 5 MR. FULLER: Well, that's one of the problems. I
6 didn't bring my printer here; and the clerk refuses to even
7 print them out for me, even though the website says it's one
8 of its functions, to provide forms. He will not do that for
9 me.
14:04:37 10 THE COURT: Do you believe that these witnesses,
11 who you would like to call in your defense, would have to be
12 compelled to come or will they come if you ask them to come?
14:04:45 13 MR. FULLER: I have been in communication with
14 several of them. They are all -- these are four -- four --
15 they are all real -- kind of high up in the Catholic Church
16 and know me well. All have so far refused because their day
17 is already booked, but I have been very polite and kind of
18 requested. I didn't say, "We were going to have a Superior
19 Court court order."
14:05:05 20 But I think for the course of justice, I think it
21 might be -- in order to pull these people off -- and what I
22 might suggest is if we could have -- maybe have a
23 collaborative approach, you could sign them and we can have
24 the bailiff, which can-- that's one thing, I -- it's very
25 hard for me to serve these things. But the bailiff can

88
1 call -- and I'm happy to pay the fee and can -- I -- I
2 think could help bring them or -- or suggest that they
3 come.
14:05:28 4 THE COURT: I'm happy to do that. And I
5 anticipate jury selection taking at least the rest of the
6 day so that -- and then the State puts on its evidence
7 first.
14:05:39 8 MR. FULLER: I -- I just want to get by this
9 Grotsky thing. This is getting to be the most important
10 thing, that that report, which the State funded -- I'm just
11 terrified I'm going to get into the trial and it's going to
12 get thrown out because he's not here to testify. It's the
13 State's own witness who has already said that it's his view
14 that I'm ultra religious and that I was just communicating
15 religious things. But -- but I'm terrified that that's
16 going to get knocked out so if we can possibly agree in
17 advance that -- that that report -- that -- will be allowed
18 to be referenced in full without being challenged.
14:06:16 19 THE COURT: What says the State to that request?
14:06:18 20 MR. COURLANG: We would object to anything unless
21 there is a proper evidentiary foundation. The State has not
22 received this report, has not seen this report, and would
23 ask for there to be proper authentication for any evidence
24 to be entered.
14:06:29 25 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I don't see anything in

89
1 that report that's relevant to your defense that's -- that
2 is admissible in evidence. I mean, his opinion as to why
3 you made these communications and that you were doing it for
4 religious reasons is outside the scope of his expertise, for
5 one thing.
14:06:50 6 MR. FULLER: Well -- well, I think the question
7 that he got is to look at intent. I mean, he's one of the
8 best criminal profilers. And that was the findings. And
9 the State actually paid for it all.
14:07:02 10 THE COURT: His mission was to determine whether
11 you are competent to proceed. He was not asked to opine
12 what your intent was.
14:07:09 13 MR. FULLER: Okay. Well, I'm definitely getting
14 the feeling that that avenue is going to be closed, ;and so
15 here -- here is my point is --
14:07:16 17 MR. FULLER: -- I feel that I'm getting into
18 another --
14:07:24 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Wait a minute. Another kind
20 of what?
14:07:24 21 MR. FULLER: -- kangaroo court situation. And I
22 think it -- a kangaroo court in which I am not having any
23 witnesses. Or even the State's own documents that are in my
24 favor are not being allowed that -- during one of the
25 breaks, the UNC attorney said that, "Don't even try to

90
1 subpoena." They are going to block everything, "And you
2 will never get it," is what he basically told me. I just
3 think this is an outrage that -- that I have -- your
4 previous predecessor, Judge -- special Judge Robinson has
5 already made a finding of fact that the clerk of court was
6 essentially blocking -- unlawfully blocking my subpoenas. I
7 have been trying to get them for a long time.
14:08:00 8 And part of ADD is having trouble with
9 understanding and following all these procedures and rules;
10 and I just think it is completely not in the course of
11 interest to move to court with someone, knowing that I have
12 a mental disability, without anyone to speak on my behalf;
13 and that's what's going to happen.
14:08:23 14 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, your subpoenas were issued
15 by a superior court judge; and I understood you to say
16 yesterday that you chose not to serve some of them. And the
17 reasons were not clear to me. But you have had the ability
18 to subpoena people now for, what, at least three weeks; and
19 you haven't. And I don't understand that.
14:08:48 20 MR. FULLER: Yes. You misunderstand. There are
21 now three different lawsuits and that the -- there has been
22 over probably 250 pages filed in the federal lawsuit.
23 And -- and that has been going, as I say, very much in my
24 favor. It's not been dismissed. In fact, as I mentioned,
25 the big order came down on Friday saying that it can be

91
1 expanded. And so that has taken a ton of my time. It's
2 extremely complex to do all that work. And so I -- I would
3 ask, as a matter of good standing, that -- that I be allowed
4 at least to refer to -- well, you've already said you are
5 not going to do that.
14:09:29 6 I think a continuance would be the best. And I
7 think that I -- I hate to say it, but if I feel that the
8 Court is in violation of my civil rights in regard to the
9 ADA -- and you got to remember that the State of North
10 Carolina has already in a legal settlement with the U.S.
11 DOJ of 2012, that I'm one of the parties of or
12 beneficiaries of -- that I think it would be the -- in my
13 best interest to file an emergency injunction with the
14 federal court, which I don't think they will give -- but I
15 have been of record in doing it -- then just not
16 participate tomorrow. And if you want to get to that
17 point, I think it's very unwise. And so I am just trying
18 to negotiate in good faith here.
14:10:15 19 I don't think you understand -- I mean, a lot of
20 states don't have the judge making mental health decisions.
21 They would have an expert, and I think that would be
22 advisable. I think if you had any expert that would come
23 in, they would say this is absolutely crazy. But the State
24 has given you the authority to make those decisions. And
25 so I just want to make the Court aware that that will be my

92
1 response. And I think it will definitely probably create a
2 situation where the whole thing is going to get thrown out
3 or at least it's going to be very weird.
14:10:49 4 THE COURT: All right. Hang on a second here.
14:11:00 5 MR. FULLER: And I just want to say lastly, if I
6 get too agitated -- that's why I always carry this pill -- I
7 end up getting these migraines that are so severe that I
8 can't even see anymore, and I will have to immediately go at
9 that point.
14:11:17 10 THE COURT: Sure. And if you find yourself
11 needing to take some medication, you let me know that; and
12 we will stop what we are doing and let you do that.
14:11:24 13 MR. FULLER: Well, let me make clear if I have a
14 migraine, I mean, I have to be -- I -- I have to leave
15 and -- and I can't continue. I mean, completely impossible.
14:11:35 16 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I understand that too.
14:11:36 17 And when you say that you are going to choose not
18 to participate, what does that mean? Are you going to sit
19 here and not say anything or are you going to leave?
14:11:43 20 MR. FULLER: Oh, I'm certainly going to be here
21 and follow -- follow the court. But having read and being
22 involved in the federal case, it's pretty fascinating. We
23 got into a big debate. And so when I inform you of this in
24 advance, but yet participate without it, I kind of have a
25 legal liability there so it's my -- my understanding, in

93
1 looking at these federal precedents, that if I regard the
2 State as being not in compliance with federal law, it's best
3 I not participate because the problem is, if I participate,
4 I've kind of acquiesced in some way.
14:12:20 6 MR. FULLER: And so that's -- that's the issue.
7 And -- and I hope --
14:12:24 8 THE COURT: I understand.
14:12:24 9 MR. FULLER: -- we can settle the matter quickly.
10 I just think when I come in here and there's all these gay
11 rights people all against me, I'm just going to have a
12 complete heart attack in the morning. It will be the news
13 media here again. It's just going to be too much for me.
14:12:39 14 THE COURT: What -- I'm trying to understand what
15 these witnesses -- I mean, I'm trying to -- trying to walk a
16 fine line here because I'm not trying to get you to disclose
17 your defense strategy. You are not required to do that.
18 But if I'm going to --
14:12:57 20 THE COURT: -- rule on your motion to continue
21 because you don't have witnesses --
14:13:02 23 THE COURT: -- I at least need a forecast of what
24 they would testify.
14:13:06 25 MR. FULLER: Okay. I can certainly handle that.

94
14:13:09 1 So in the report that you have read, it mentions
2 something; and it's technically a sealed document; but,
3 yeah, I'm a cooperator of Opus Dei. That's kind of a big
4 deal in the Catholic Church. It means I have certain
5 apostolic responsibilities. And a lot of that comes down
6 to sexual formation and, for instance, admonishment of
7 others. That's considered a virtue, a spiritual virtue.
8 So I can't testify to that in court because I'm not going
9 to take the stand, but I would need someone to come and
10 speak, and then we get into a real complicated issue that I
11 have been reading about in criminal trials of what is
12 called circumstantial. And so I'm worried even if we got
13 the priest here, he, you know, the State would make motions
14 and, of course, not want him to talk.
14:13:55 15 And so I think I it's the sort of thing we should
16 work out in advance because I want to be able to present a
17 defense that shows that I'm very religious and have been
18 given instructions from -- from -- in fact, a cardinal in
19 Rome. And I have a copy of his speech that says, "You have
20 got to go out and not accept HB2," you know, "it's
21 outrageous." And so I would want to get all that into
22 evidence as well as, you know, the fact that I'm real
23 involved in the Republican Party, so I need a Republican
24 Party person here.
14:14:29 25 And I think, you know, once all of that is into

95
1 the evidence, it's going to show that I acted in a
2 religious and political things and will be exempt from this
3 law. But I'm a little bit worried about the court or --
4 I'll just be frank -- about the judge, that you already not
5 admitted Grotsky's -- I mean, I think Grotsky, the -- the
6 State's own expert, was so annoyed with this case that he
7 put that in there specifically to get the case dismissed.
8 I didn't tell him to do that. He did that on his own. And
9 now that it's been pretty much -- no one is going to
10 consider it, it -- I just started to think that the -- the
11 whole process is against me.
14:15:06 12 I mean, I know it's unprecedented for me to sue
13 sitting judges. It probably does irritate people, but you
14 got to let that process go out. And, I mean, it is insane;
15 but, I mean, we are really facing the possibility that five
16 judges from this court are going to be sitting in Craven
17 County in a federal trial that I will be essentially the
18 prosecutor of. That's been going for five months, as I
19 said and -- despite a ton of people at NCDOJ that have not
20 been able to get it dismissed.
14:15:38 21 But nonetheless, let's get back to this case.
14:15:42 23 MR. FULLER: I want to get it resolved. But,
24 yeah, I just want it resolved in a way that's collaborative.
25 I mean, we don't have to fight. And -- I mean, I don't know

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1 why the State, in the world, why the State objects to
2 Grotsky's report. They are the ones that forced me to go
3 see him. I went four times to visit him. Every time -- one
4 time they interviewed my wife. They asked me a million
5 questions about, like, sexual fantasies, all this crazy
6 stuff; and they did this huge report; and I would like it to
7 be in the record because it's very favorable to me. But all
8 of a sudden, when it's anything that's not favorable to the
9 State, even though they -- they are the ones that -- it was
10 their idea, they won't -- they won't let it in.
14:16:16 11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, if you choose
12 to offer evidence and you propound that evidence, I will
13 rule at the time whether you have laid the proper legal
14 foundation and in all other respects whether that evidence
15 is admissible or not based on the rules of evidence and
16 procedure. I don't have any idea at this moment whether I'm
17 going to let it into evidence or not because I don't know
18 what your evidentiary foundation is and I don't know whether
19 it's going to be relevant to a fact or an issue in the case
20 so, in my discretion, your motion to continue the case is
21 denied.
14:17:14 22 And, again, I'm happy to issue any subpoenas you
23 want me to issue if you feel like you need to compel
24 somebody's presence at this trial. I will do it right now.
14:17:23 25 MR. FULLER: Okay. That would be wonderful. If

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1 someone could print out the form, I can fill it out; and we
2 can do this in ten minutes.
14:17:28 3 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, would you please fill
4 out -- would you please print some blank subpoenas or do you
5 have some blank subpoenas handy?
14:17:35 6 THE CLERK: I'll find them.
14:17:36 7 THE COURT: All right. And I will sign them.
14:17:38 8 MR. FULLER: And the next question is service,
9 because -- what I might suggest is the bailiff just call the
10 people. I think that that is permissible, and I'm happy to
11 pay that fee.
14:17:49 12 THE COURT: I will give them to you, and you can
13 pay the fee at the first break. And I'll make sure that the
14 sheriff serves your subpoenas before the day is over.
14:17:59 15 MR. FULLER: Okay. One more question on that
16 line.
14:18:02 18 MR. FULLER: Before we get to the jury trial, I
19 have looked over the superior court judges' bench, you know,
20 the -- basically that tells you how to be a superior court
21 judge by Jessica Smith. And it's pretty complicated, this
22 aspect of character witness. And so could we work that out?
23 In other words, if the Catholic priest is sitting in the
24 jury box (sic), am I going to be able to ask him, "Do you
25 think Napier Fuller, his impetus is primarily religious in

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1 nature in communicating his views on human sexuality?"
14:18:49 2 But -- in other words, there is no point in
3 bringing him here if the State is going to immediately
4 strike it all down, which I am sure they'll try to do. And
5 so it would be great if we could go ahead and decide the
6 questions -- I'm happy to even write them down -- of what
7 can be asked so we don't have to go through all this
8 nonsense because that's what -- the sort of stuff that
9 makes me really frustrated. I feel sort of like game
10 playing.
14:19:13 11 THE COURT: I understand. It's ordinarily not the
12 Court's responsibility to issue advisory rulings; although,
13 I will take your request as in the nature of a motion in
14 limine, which -- they are allowed under our law -- to give
15 you some idea what evidence the Court is inclined to receive
16 so that you can plan accordingly.
14:19:47 17 All right. Why don't you go ahead and tell me
18 what it is that you would like to elicit from a priest, and
19 then I will hear the State's argument as to whether it
20 should or should not be allowed.
14:20:02 21 And, sir, I want to assure you that none of this
22 is personal. I'm trying as best I can to follow the law.
14:20:08 23 MR. FULLER: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just
24 putting on the U.S. DOJ has said that you must make
25 reasonable modifications of policy procedures in this case.

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14:20:15 1 THE COURT: I understand.
14:20:15 2 MR. FULLER: But answering your question, I'm --
14:20:18 3 THE COURT: Well, hang on a second. Before we get
4 to that. That surely does not mean that I am to change the
5 rules of evidence or the rules of procedure to accommodate
6 your condition. I'm happy to change the schedule of the
7 trial, give you extra breaks, sign your subpoenas, to let
8 you record things, in reasonable accommodation to your
9 condition; but I will take exception to your suggestion that
10 I'm supposed to change the rules of evidence or procedure to
11 accommodate your condition. And to the extent that you are
12 asking me to do that, I will not do that.
14:21:00 15 MR. FULLER: I understand that. And I would
16 disagree with that. I would say the U.S. DOJ has filed
17 stuff. But I won't get into an argument --
14:21:04 18 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Napier -- Mr. Fuller, I'm
19 having a hard time understanding what you are saying.
14:21:11 20 MR. FULLER: Okay. Sorry. We won't follow any
21 more, because -- but I understand your position.
14:21:15 22 THE COURT: Okay. And it's fine. And if I make a
23 mistake of law during this trial, the Court of Appeals will
24 let us know. I'm just going to do the best I can with what
25 I have got.

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14:21:26 2 THE COURT: Okay?
14:21:26 3 MR. FULLER: Okay. That sounds fine. So what
4 I -- back to this issue.
14:21:33 6 MR. FULLER: What I might suggest is I write
7 down -- it would perfectly fine for us to handle this
8 informally -- I write down a few questions, and we get
9 Blake's informal consent that he won't object to those, and
10 then we can decide whether we are going to bring the fellow
11 in.
14:21:48 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I understand that you
13 would like this to be a collaborative procedure. It' is, in
14 fact, an adversarial procedure; and I am to referee two
15 competing sides. This is not a mediation and it's not a
16 collaboration.
14:22:00 17 MR. FULLER: Sure. And I will say that's what
18 drives me crazy because I don't understand adversarial
19 stuff. That's why I filed all these new lawsuits.
14:22:08 21 MR. FULLER: And so I can play the game too, and
22 I'm doing it. And so -- anyway, I'm just saying I'm trying
23 to handle it; but these things can, like, spin out of
24 control. But anyway, I don't know what to say.
14:22:21 25 I mean, it sounds like, even if we get this guy

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1 here, he is never going to be able to answer any questions.
2 And, see, then that creates worry with me; and it's more
3 likely, when I come in, to create -- I think I'm already
4 pretty much very close to getting to the point because of
5 stress-related migraines, but all this not knowing and
6 having no idea of what's going on creates worry. And it --
7 it -- it -- I -- I don't see why -- why we can't -- why the
8 State feels this -- that it's necessary not -- not to agree
9 if we bring the priest in, cancel all of his appointments
10 tomorrow, that we can't even agree what questions he can be
11 asked. But apparently that's how this Court is going to
12 be.
14:23:14 13 THE COURT: Okay. Madam Clerk, call for a jury.
14:23:26 14 Mr. Fuller, just so you will understand, I'm going
15 to give the jury some introductory remarks.
14:23:33 16 Let the record reflect no jurors are present in
17 the courtroom.
14:23:35 18 The clerk has, on my direction, based on your
19 request, changed the code in the internal system to the
20 code that you asked her to change it to.
14:23:48 22 THE COURT: And it will now be reflected in the
23 Court's computer that you are charged with cyberstalking.
14:23:56 24 MR. FULLER: Good. Good. Good. Good.
14:23:58 25 THE COURT: Okay? And when I'm orienting the

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1 jury, I understand that you would like me to tell them that
2 you are charged with cyberstalking.
14:24:06 3 MR. FULLER: Yes. That's the word I want, not
4 harassing communications.
14:24:09 5 THE COURT: I will be happy to do that, but I'm
6 going to say that you are charged with cyberstalking under
7 the section of the statute that prohibits repeated e-mail
8 communications for the purpose of -- where did my file go?
14:24:28 9 THE COURT REPORTER: Behind the monitor, Judge.
14:24:29 10 MR. FULLER: Okay. And at some point, I need to
11 review the jury instructions.
14:24:33 12 THE COURT: I'm happy to let you review them
13 before I give them. That's part of the process.
14:24:38 14 MR. FULLER: And I just had one thought. I see in
15 our crowd here, we have one of the witnesses that brought
16 the claim that's already been adjudicated in my favor. I
17 think it would be great to have her, Terri Phoenix, the LGBT
18 Chairman at UNC Chapel Hill, for me to be able to have her
19 as a witness and explain why her case fell apart. That
20 would be wonderful. And so since she is already here, can
21 we go ahead and get her to agree to come back and serve her
22 a subpoena right now?
14:25:11 23 THE COURT: Hang on. Hang on, Mr. Sheriff.
14:25:12 24 MR. FULLER: She is in the green shirt there.
14:25:15 25 THE COURT: All right. The courts of this state

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1 are open to the public. It would be hard for me to imagine
2 how that evidence is admissible in evidence. But if you
3 want to subpoena her, you go right ahead as soon as -- okay.
14:25:34 4 MR. FULLER: Well, it was the same e-mails. I
5 understand. Anyway, I would like that. And then maybe
6 after we finish with the -- selecting the jury, we can --
14:25:43 7 THE COURT: I tell you what, I'll work on those
8 while we are picking a jury. And I'm going to orient them,
9 then the jury is turned over to the State. They get to ask
10 them some questions. They get to exercise their challenges.
11 You don't have to ask anybody any questions until such time
12 as the State has passed 12 jurors to you.
14:26:03 14 THE COURT: And at that point, it will be your
15 turn. You are able to challenge up to six of them for no
16 reason at all. And if you have any reasons to challenge
17 them for legal cause, I will entertain those; and we will go
18 back and forth like that until we have 12 jurors.
14:26:20 19 Now, I forgot to ask: How long does the State
20 think its evidence will take?
14:26:27 21 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State believes that
22 it will take about -- between three and four hours for the
23 State's evidence.
14:26:33 25 MR. COURLANG: Cumulative.

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14:26:35 1 THE COURT: All right. And, again, I'm not trying
2 to ask you to forecast what you might or might (sic) do with
3 your defense. That's your business. I will ask you if you
4 think that it's safe for me to predict for this jury that we
5 are going to be finished this week? I just like to let them
6 know how long they are going to be here.
14:26:59 7 MR. FULLER: Sure. Yeah, I think that's fine.
14:27:01 8 THE COURT: Okay. It seems reasonable to me. If
9 we do go into next week, fine; but I just want to give them
10 a projection so they can be arranging their own affairs.
14:27:12 11 MR. FULLER: And just hold on one second. Before
12 they come in, because I understand it's a point in the case
13 when they walk in, I want to be very clear that this being
14 so rushed that I -- I do not feel that this is a fair trial
15 and it is in violation of my ADD ADA Title II.
14:27:27 16 THE COURT: I will note that for the record. And
17 in the exercise of my discretion, your motion to continue is
18 denied.
14:27:34 19 All right. Bring the jury in, please.
14:27:35 20 Kimmel, can you hear me okay?
14:27:35 21 THE COURT REPORTER: I can. I sure wish I could
22 see you better. That monitor --
14:27:35 23 (Judge moved his computer monitor.)
14:27:35 24 THE COURT REPORTER: Beautiful. Thank you.
14:29:25 25 (Prospective jurors entered the courtroom.)

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COURT'S INTRODUCTORY INSTRUCTIONS
14:29:28 1 MS. AUSTIN: Good afternoon, Your Honor. We have
2 61 jurors for you.
14:30:06 3 THE COURT: Mr. Sheriff, is that everybody?
14:30:08 4 THE BAILIFF: Yes, sir.
14:30:09 5 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much.
14:30:10 6 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
14:30:11 7 CHORUS: Good afternoon.
14:30:12 8 THE COURT: I want to welcome those of you who
9 have been summoned for service here in the Superior Court of
10 Orange County. My name is Bryan Collins. I'm a superior
11 court judge. I reside in Wake County, but I have been
12 assigned to hold this session of Court by the Chief Justice.
13 It's my honor and privilege to serve you this week. I want
14 to give you some introductory remarks.
14:30:34 15 But, first, can everybody hear me okay?
14:30:37 16 CHORUS: Yes.
14:30:37 17 COURT'S INTRODUCTORY INSTRUCTIONS
14:30:38 18 THE COURT: All right. I have got a little bit of
19 a cold, so I'm having a problem keeping my voice up so, if
20 at any time during these proceedings, you can't hear me or
21 you can't hear a lawyer or you can't hear a witness or a
22 party or anything that's being said, please raise your hand
23 and let me know that. It's very important to me that all of
24 you are able to hear everything that goes on in here.
14:30:59 25 I want to give you a few introductory remarks.

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1 This is actually the first time I have ever held court in
2 this courtroom. Actually, yesterday was. We travel all
3 over the State. This is my first time in criminal court in
4 Orange County so I actually don't know everybody, but I
5 want to introduce folks.
14:31:18 6 The courtroom clerk seated to my right is named --
14:31:21 7 THE CLERK: Paige Sawyer-Brown.
14:31:23 8 THE COURT: -- Paige Sawyer-Brown. Her job is to
9 keep the court's records and to swear witnesses. It may
10 appear to you that I'm in charge in this courtroom, but the
11 truth of the matter is that she is in charge. So everybody
12 keep that in mind while this is going on.
14:31:37 13 Our court reporter is Kimmel McDiarmid. She is
14 seated to my left, sort of in front of me. She is taking
15 down every word that everybody says. And because of that,
16 it's very important that when folks are talking that they
17 speak loudly and clearly and slowly and that we only have
18 one person speaking at a time so that we have an accurate
19 record of our court's proceedings.
14:32:02 20 You may see several courtroom deputies from time
21 to time. The one standing there right now is named --
14:32:10 22 BAILIFF NEIGHBOURS: Bill Neighbours.
14:32:11 23 THE COURT: -- Bill Neighbours. And the fellow in
24 the back is --
14:32:13 25 THE BAILIFF: -- Kurt Insko.

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14:32:15 1 THE COURT: -- Kurt Insko. They are here to
2 enforce the Court's orders. And they are basically here to
3 be in charge of you. It's not proper for me or any of the
4 parties or any of the lawyers or any of the witnesses to
5 have any sort of conversation with you at all while this
6 trial is in progress unless we're all together in open court
7 so if you have any questions or any concerns, please address
8 those to a courtroom deputy or any other uniformed deputy
9 that you may see around the courthouse, and they will try to
10 help you. And if they can't, they will find somebody who
11 can.
14:32:45 12 I'm going to ask that all of you remain seated
13 while court is in progress and turn your cell phones off.
14 If some -- you know, if you have a -- some sort of
15 situation going on in your life where it's very important
16 that you might receive a text about a child or a loved one,
17 I will let you leave your cell phone on vibrate; but please
18 don't have it where it makes any audible signal.
14:33:12 19 Also, I understand that your time is valuable; and
20 I'm going to do everything I can to make the best use of
21 your time and not waste any of your time, but I do want to
22 remind you that jury service is one of the obligations of
23 citizenship. It represents your contribution to our
24 democratic way of life. I ask you to give this the same
25 importance in your life that you would expect of jurors if

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1 you were facing a jury yourself. You are being asked to
2 perform one of the highest duties that can be imposed on
3 any citizen, and that is to sit in judgment on the facts
4 which will settle disputes among your fellow citizens.
5 Trial by a jury is a right guaranteed to every citizen.
14:33:49 6 After you have been selected as a juror and have
7 qualified by taking the oath, you will become the sole
8 judges of the weight to be given any evidence, and you will
9 also be the sole judges of the credibility of each witness.
10 Any decision agreed to by all 12 jurors, which is free of
11 partiality, unbiased and unprejudiced, reached in sound and
12 conscientious judgment, based on credible evidence, and in
13 accord with the Court's instructions, becomes a final
14 result in a case. That's a lot of legal jargon that
15 basically means that you are going to decide this case; I'm
16 not. So please pay careful attention and be very diligent
17 in your duties.
14:34:29 18 What I do is see that the trial is conducted in
19 accordance with the rules of law. I will rule on points of
20 procedure, points of evidence, maintain order and decorum,
21 that sort of thing. And then I will instruct you on the
22 law that you are to apply to the facts as you find the
23 facts to be.
14:34:48 24 As I have said, you must understand that neither
25 the Court, nor the parties, nor the witnesses, nor the

109
1 lawyers may have any contact or conversation with you
2 during this trial. They all know they are not allowed to
3 speak to you in the hall or at lunch or anywhere else. So
4 please don't think they are being rude. But likewise,
5 please don't put anybody in an awkward position by coming
6 up and saying good morning or asking them where the
7 bathroom is or anything like that. They absolutely can't
8 have anything to do with you.
14:35:16 9 And it's important that you not only be impartial,
10 you must always appear impartial. For instance, if we
11 wanted to talk about the Yankee's/Red Socks' series this
12 week, I'd love to do that. But if we were doing that and
13 somebody couldn't hear what we were saying, they might
14 think we were talking about this case so let's don't give
15 anybody any reason to do that.
14:35:39 16 This service is very important. It's important to
17 our system. It's important to our state and our county,
18 and you are going to have important duties and grave
19 responsibilities. I need you to be on time -- we can't do
20 this unless everybody is where they are supposed to be on
21 time -- be attentive, be faithful to your oaths,
22 considerate and tolerant of your fellow jurors, sound and
23 deliberate in your evaluations, and firm but not stubborn
24 in your convictions.
14:36:07 25 I know you have probably seen the video, but I

110
1 want to make doubly sure that all of you are qualified to
2 serve on this jury. To be qualified to serve on a jury,
3 you must be a citizen and resident of Orange County. That
4 means you must live in Orange County as we speak. You must
5 be at least 18 years old. You must be physically and
6 mentally competent, able to understand the English
7 language, not have been convicted of a felony nor have
8 pleaded no contest to a felony, unless your citizenship has
9 been restored. You must not have been adjudged
10 incompetent, and you must not have served on either a grand
11 jury nor a trial jury in the State courts during the last
12 two years.
14:36:51 13 Based on those eligibility criteria, do any of you
14 believe that you are not eligible to serve on this jury?
15 If so, please raise your hand.
14:37:00 16 (No response.)
14:37:00 17 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that no hands
18 were raised.
14:37:03 19 I also recognize that being on a jury is
20 inconvenient. And I also recognize that there may be times
21 when it's not just inconvenient, but that it would present
22 a great hardship to you. Something may have happened in
23 your life, you know, as recently as today, that you had no
24 way of anticipating before you got here. For instance, if
25 somebody in your close, personal life is in the hospital or

111
1 if you have surgery scheduled or if you are a full-time
2 student and being here all week would cause you to miss an
3 entire semester, if you have paid for a vacation and you
4 can't get your money back, those sorts of things. I'm not
5 talking about ordinary inconveniences but great hardships.
6 If you have one of those, you can have your service
7 deferred. It doesn't mean you get out of jury duty. It
8 means you have to come back a different week.
14:38:02 9 I have talked to the parties in this case. I have
10 read the file. I have been hanging around courtrooms a
11 long time, and my best estimate is that this case is going
12 to be over on Friday. Most jury trials take a lot longer
13 than that. So if you decide you don't want to be here this
14 week, be careful what you ask for. You may come back for
15 something a lot longer than this.
14:38:27 16 So -- but I do understand -- I don't mean to make
17 light of your situation. If you have something and you
18 just can't be here for the rest of the week and you want me
19 to consider deferring your service, if you will please line
20 up right here, I will consider that at this time. And I'm
21 going to need you when you come up to just announce your
22 name so the clerk can account for you. That's fine. Right
23 there. Yes, sir. What's your name?
14:38:52 24 UNIDENTIFIED MALE IN AUDIENCE: Tracy Carpenter.
14:38:54 25 THE COURT: Mr. Carpenter, what is your hardship?

112
14:38:57 1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE IN AUDIENCE: I have a paid-for
2 vacation that I cannot get my money back on.
14:39:01 3 THE COURT: When do you start?
14:39:03 4 UNIDENTIFIED MALE IN AUDIENCE: Friday morning.
14:39:05 5 THE COURT: You are deferred.
14:39:06 6 Does he need his card or you got it?
14:39:08 7 THE CLERK: I got it.
14:39:10 8 THE COURT: All right. We will summon you for
9 another week.
14:39:11 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE IN AUDIENCE: Okay.
14:39:11 11 THE COURT: I hope that doesn't work out badly for
12 you. Have a nice vacation.
14:39:14 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE IN AUDIENCE: Thank you.
14:39:15 14 THE COURT: Anybody else?
14:39:16 15 (No response.)
14:39:17 16 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that no one
17 else has asked to be deferred.
14:39:24 18 Now, some of you are about to become very
19 important people. And I want you to remember that it's
20 your duty not to talk about this case while it's going on.
21 And to tell you something that I don't think is intuitively
22 obvious: It's also your duty not to talk with each other
23 about this case while it's going on. There's a couple of
24 reasons for that. One of them is it's very important that
25 you keep an open mind, that you not start -- that you not

113
1 start forming opinions or expressing opinions about this
2 case until you have heard everything. We have a process
3 here, and one side gets to go first, but you need to not
4 make up your mind until you have heard everything.
14:40:03 5 So if you start talking with each other about the
6 case before it's over, you might start forming opinions.
7 It's also not proper for you to deliberate with each other
8 unless all 12 of you are in the jury room, having heard all
9 of the evidence and having heard my instructions on the law
10 and having heard the final arguments. So if you start
11 talking with each other about the case, then you might
12 start deliberating with each other so don't do that. It's
13 fine for you to talk to each other; just don't talk about
14 the case.
14:40:31 15 The State of North Carolina and the defendant in
16 this case, Mr. Fuller, are entitled to jurors who approach
17 this case with an open mind and who agree to keep their
18 minds open until a verdict is reached. You must be as free
19 as humanly possible from bias, prejudice, or sympathy; and
20 you must not be influenced by preconceived ideas, either as
21 to the facts or as to the law. You must not form an
22 opinion or express an opinion about this case until you
23 begin your deliberations.
14:41:02 24 All right. During the first step of jury
25 selection, I'm going to ask you a few questions basically

114
1 just to find out some basic information about you. I'm not
2 going to let anybody ask you specifically where you live or
3 what your telephone number is or anything like that. We
4 are not trying to get deep into your affairs; but we just
5 want to know if you have any knowledge of the case to be
6 tried, if you have any preconceived opinions that you can't
7 set aside, or if you have any experience that might cause
8 you to identify yourself with either party in the case.
9 These questions are necessary to assure that both sides get
10 an impartial jury.
14:41:37 11 Now, there may have been some publicity about this
12 case at the time it happened or since then. As a matter of
13 fact, I'm almost sure that there has been some. But you
14 must not permit anything that you have read or heard or
15 seen to influence your verdict because what you have read,
16 heard or seen was not under oath at this trial. It is not
17 evidence. None of you would want to be tried based on what
18 was reported by others outside the courtroom. Being
19 fair-minded persons, certainly none of us would rely on
20 that kind of information in the trial of a case.
14:42:10 21 You must exclude all that you have seen, heard, or
22 read and render a verdict based solely on the evidence
23 brought out in court and the law that I will give you in my
24 charge or instructions. You may not let your present
25 opinion or information influence your decision in a case or

115
1 let it prevent you from rendering any proper verdict
2 required by the facts and the law. The test for
3 qualification for jury service is not the private feelings
4 of the juror; rather, it is whether the juror can honestly
5 set aside any such feelings, fairly consider the law and
6 the evidence, and impartially determine the issues.
14:42:48 7 In the process of selecting a juror -- jury --
8 some of you may be excused by cause for the Court if there
9 is some legal reason why you can't serve on this case. In
10 addition, both sides can excuse a limited number of you
11 without giving any reason for it at all. If that happens,
12 don't get your feelings hurt. It may just be that there is
13 something about your life experience or your personal
14 situation that would make you a better juror in a different
15 case.
14:43:17 16 I hope you will enjoy your week of jury service.
17 Don't be scared or afraid of serving as a juror. All we
18 ask of you this week is that you use the same good judgment
19 and common sense in here that you use in your everyday
20 life. I do want to let you know that this is -- this is
21 really -- this is democracy in action in its purest form,
22 and we can't do this without you.
14:43:48 23 At this time, I'm going to ask the clerk to
24 randomly select 12 of you to sit in the jury box. And when
25 you hear your name, please follow the sheriff's directions

116
1 and sit in the designated seat.
14:44:01 2 THE CLERK: (Complied.)
14:44:02 3 (Twelve initial jurors were seated in the jury box.)
14:47:00 4 THE COURT: Thank you very much, Madam Clerk. And
5 welcome to our 12 jurors.
14:47:04 6 I remind those of you who are here for jury
7 service and didn't get called into the box to please pay
8 careful attention. Most of you or many of you will end up
9 up here eventually, and you are going to all be asked the
10 same questions. So if you will be thinking about your
11 answers to the questions, it will help us when you do get
12 up here.
14:47:23 13 THE COURT: All right. Folks, the district
14 attorney has called for trial the case entitled the State of
15 North Carolina v. Napier Fuller. I inform you that the
16 defendant in this case is Mr. Fuller, who is right here at
17 this table. He is raising his hand. Everybody -- I'm going
18 to ask everybody to get a good look at everybody because one
19 of the first things I am going to ask is -- Mr. Fuller,
20 would you stand up because some of these people can't see
21 you. I'm going to ask you if you know any of these folks;
22 okay?
14:47:45 23 MR. FULLER: (Complied.)
14:47:47 25 At the other table is the Assistant District

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1 Attorney, the lawyer for the State, Mr. Courlang. And I
2 assume that there are other people here who may have some
3 connection to this case that we ought to go ahead and
4 introduce to the jury while we are at it. If you'll
5 introduce the folks that you think might be called as
6 witnesses for the State.
14:48:12 7 MR. COURLANG: Yes, sir. the investigator, Ross
8 Barbee, from UNC Chapel Hill Police Department. We have
9 Dr. Lisa Zerden.
14:48:22 10 WOMAN IN AUDIENCE: I do know two people.
14:48:25 11 THE COURT: We are going to get to that. We have
12 a process we are going through. All right.
14:48:28 13 MR. COURLANG: And we do intend to call a Mark
14 Shiver. He's not present at the moment.
14:48:33 16 MR. COURLANG: But he will be called. Mark
17 Shiver, S-H-I-V-E-R.
14:48:37 18 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller has been
19 charged with cyberstalking. This offense is alleged to have
20 occurred on or about December the 27th of 2016, and
21 continuing through January the 31st, 2017. And he is
22 alleged to have done that by repeatedly sending e-mails to
23 Lisa de Saxe Zerden for the purpose of abusing, annoying,
24 threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing her. So
25 that's what this case is about.

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14:49:13 1 Mr. Fuller has entered a plea of not guilty.
2 After a jury has been selected and impaneled in this case,
3 you will hear the evidence. The evidence is presented
4 according to certain rules of law. I will enforce those
5 rules and determine what evidence may be admitted. After
6 all the evidence has been presented and after you have
7 listened to the arguments of the parties, I will instruct
8 you as to all of the law that you are to apply to the
9 evidence in this case.
14:49:37 10 It is your duty to apply the law as I will give it
11 to you and not as you think the law is or as you might like
12 it to be. This is important because justice requires that
13 everyone tried for the same crime be treated in the same
14 way and have the same law applied in each such case. At
15 this point, you are not expected to know the law. The
16 parties should not question you about the law except to ask
17 whether you will accept and follow the law as given to you
18 by the Court.
14:50:05 19 I do want to tell you a few preliminary things
20 about the law in a criminal case. Mr. Fuller has entered a
21 plea of not guilty. Under our system of justice, a person
22 who pleads not guilty is not required to prove his
23 innocence; but he is presumed to be innocent. This
24 presumption remains with him throughout the trial until the
25 jury selected to hear the case is convinced from the facts

119
1 and the law beyond a reasonable doubt of his guilt.
14:50:33 2 The burden of proof is on the State to prove to
3 you that Mr. Fuller is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. A
4 reasonable doubt is a doubt based on reason and common
5 sense, arising out of some or all of the evidence that has
6 been presented or the lack or insufficiency of the
7 evidence, as the case may be. Proof beyond a reasonable
8 doubt is proof that fully satisfies or entirely convinces
9 you of Mr. Fuller's guilt.
14:50:59 10 There is no burden or duty of any kind on
11 Mr. Fuller. The mere fact that he has been charged with a
12 crime is no evidence of guilt. A charge is merely the
13 mechanical or administrative way by which any person is
14 brought to a trial.
14:51:13 15 If the State proves guilt beyond a reasonable
16 doubt, then the function of this jury by its verdict is to
17 say "guilty." If the State fails to prove guilt or if you
18 have a reasonable doubt, then, of course, you must say "not
19 guilty."
14:51:25 20 Now, I have a few questions. Let me tell you what
21 they all are because it's just a very few. And I'm going
22 to start with Ms. Burrows. You are lucky number -- wait a
23 minute. You're number seven. Excuse me. I'm going to
24 start with Ms. Peace. Everywhere I go, they number the
25 seats differently.

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14:51:42 1 (Jury selection began.)
15:13:52 2 THE COURT: We normally take a mid-afternoon
3 recess, and this is probably a good time for that. When we
4 take a recess, there may be matters that I need to consider
5 outside of your presence, so I need everyone to exit the
6 court -- everyone who is here for jury duty -- to exit the
7 courtroom when we are in recess and not re-enter the
8 courtroom until instructed by a sheriff's deputy. So at
9 this time, in anticipation of our recess, I'm going to ask
10 everyone who is here for jury service to please exit the
11 courtroom at this time to be back in 15 minutes; 3:30,
12 outside the courtroom.
15:14:32 13 (The jury left the courtroom at 3:14 p.m., and the
14 following proceedings were had out of the presence of
15 the jury.)
15:15:49 16 THE COURT: All right. All potential members of
17 the jury are absent from the courtroom.
15:15:53 18 Anything for the State before we break?
15:15:54 19 MR. SNAO: Nothing from the State, Your Honor.
15:15:56 20 THE COURT: For the defendant?
15:15:56 21 MR. FULLER: If I could get a copy of that
22 document so I can fill it out, the subpoenas.
15:16:01 23 THE COURT: I have already filled them out and
24 signed them for you.
15:16:04 25 MR. FULLER: Wow. That's awesome. I'm thrilled.

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1 You made my day.
15:16:07 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sheriff, if you would please
3 deliver these to Mr. Fuller; and let me know if you need any
4 more.
15:16:11 6 THE COURT: That's one of the reasons I took a
7 little bit of an early break, to give you time to go pay --
15:16:11 8 MR. FULLER: I just had --
15:16:11 9 THE COURT: -- that fee and get them served.
15:16:11 10 MR. FULLER: -- a tenured university professor
11 that has agreed to testify tomorrow on my behalf --
15:16:20 12 THE COURT: Okay. Great.
15:16:21 13 MR. FULLER: -- for UNC Chapel Hill.
15:16:22 14 THE COURT: Mr. Sheriff, would you please assist
15 him and make sure he gets his subpoenas served today once he
16 has paid the fee?
15:16:29 17 THE BAILIFF: Yes, sir.
15:16:29 18 THE COURT: All right. Make sure that the folks
19 in your service department know that I have ordered them to
20 serve these subpoenas as soon as he has complied with the
21 filing and fee requirements.
15:16:38 22 All right. We are in recess until 3:30.
15:26:35 23 (A recess was taken at 3:16 p.m.)
15:31:57 24 (Court resumed session at 3:32 p.m.)

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15:32:00 3 THE COURT: Let the record reflect all potential
4 jurors are absent from the courtroom. Mr. Fuller is
5 present. The State is present.
15:32:05 6 Anything for either side before we call the jury
7 back?
15:32:10 8 MR. COURLANG: Yes, your Honor.
15:32:10 10 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, Mr. Fuller currently
11 has a no contact order with Dr. Zerden in place. Mr. Fuller
12 has been speaking to Dr. Zerden today, has been making
13 comments that I think are inappropriate for this particular
14 courtroom. We would ask you to remind Mr. Fuller that a no
15 contact order is in place.
15:32:30 16 MR. FULLER: If I could speak on my behalf? I
17 have evidence that she was involved in perjured statements.
18 I have recordings; and I have filed a lawsuit against her in
19 civil court, so I'm now a party to a separate litigation
20 with her --
15:32:45 22 MR. FULLER: -- and asked her if she had been
23 served with that. I have not been aggressive in any way
24 towards her.
15:32:50 25 THE COURT: You can address your issues with her

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1 in the context of that lawsuit. The no contact order
2 doesn't say you may not aggressively contact her. It says
3 you may not contact her. If you speak to her again in the
4 presence of this Court, I am going to hold a summary direct
5 criminal contempt hearing.
15:33:15 7 THE COURT: Do you understand that?
15:33:15 8 MR. FULLER: Yes, I do. And one --
15:33:17 9 THE COURT: Because that would put you in direct
10 violation of a court order, and I can handle that quickly --
15:33:24 11 MR. FULLER: Yes --
15:33:24 12 THE COURT: -- and I will.
15:33:24 13 MR. FULLER: -- Your Honor, I understand.
15:33:26 15 MR. FULLER: One other question.
15:33:27 17 MR. FULLER: When the jury walks down this hall,
18 there is a visible gay rights sticker that says "Visibility
19 Matters." It's in plain view. I have already asked the
20 county -- John Roberts, the Orange County, to remove it. I
21 think it's very biased that the County is officially
22 displaying gay rights materials in the court itself, and I
23 would ask that you order it to be removed.
15:33:57 24 THE COURT: For purposes of the record, I'm
25 sitting here in this courtroom.

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15:34:02 1 MR. FULLER: It's in the hallway.
15:34:03 2 THE COURT: I don't see such a thing.
15:34:04 3 MR. FULLER: It's in the hallway. We can walk out
4 and look at it if you like.
15:34:08 5 THE COURT: I am not going to walk out in the
6 hallway and look at it. Your request is denied.
15:34:13 7 All right. Anything else?
15:34:15 8 MR. COURLANG: Nothing further from the State,
9 Your Honor.
15:34:16 10 THE COURT: Anything else for this case at this
11 point, Mr. Fuller?
15:34:21 12 MR. FULLER: If -- if once we wrap up if we could
13 just stay for a moment so that I can deal with the bailiffs
14 in filing these. And then in addition --
15:34:32 16 MR. FULLER: -- I have my credit card to pay for
17 the copies upstairs because I was rushing down earlier; and
18 so at some point, I need to retrieve that before they close.
15:34:41 19 THE COURT: What times does the Clerk's Office
20 close?
15:34:43 21 THE CLERK: 5:00 o'clock.
15:34:43 22 THE COURT: 5:00 o'clock?
15:34:49 23 (Inaudible communication between the Court and the
24 clerk.)
15:34:51 25 THE COURT: We are going to handle that now.

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1 Okay? The clerk is going to help us with that.
15:34:57 2 THE BAILIFF: And he needs to be at the sheriff's
3 office by 5:00. The business office closes at 5:00.
15:35:03 4 THE COURT: Okay. I tell you what we are going to
5 do.
15:35:09 6 THE BAILIFF: And they are expecting him over
7 there.
15:35:12 8 THE COURT: To keep from inconveniencing the
9 jurors, we are going to suspend jury selection at 4:30 --
15:35:16 11 THE COURT: -- to give you plenty of time to
12 accomplish your purpose.
15:35:20 13 MR. FULLER: Okay. That sounds great.
15:35:23 14 THE COURT: Okay. Bring the jury back please.
15:35:52 16 THE COURT: The jury is still absent.
15:35:53 17 MR. FULLER: -- I would ask that when I question
18 them, I be allowed to move closer so I can see their
19 expressions.
15:36:02 20 THE COURT: That request is denied.
15:36:03 21 MR. FULLER: Or can I at least swap with him? I
22 can't see them, and I really can't read expressions very
23 well. And it's, again, somewhat related to ADD. It's --
15:36:10 24 THE COURT: I will let you --
15:36:11 25 MR. FULLER: -- it's recommended to be close to

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1 people to communicate so that I can understand their
2 emotions.
15:36:16 3 THE COURT: I will let you move your chair to that
4 side of the counsel table so that you can see everybody.
15:36:23 5 MR. FULLER: Here (indicating)?
15:36:24 8 THE COURT: I'll even let you get in the middle of
9 the courtroom.
15:36:29 10 MR. FULLER: Can I stand? I prefer to stand.
15:36:31 11 THE COURT: Yes, you can stand.
15:36:33 14 MR. FULLER: It would be great before they walk in
15 to tell me what not to say.
15:36:40 16 THE COURT: Well, hang on. Hang on. Let's --
17 let's --
15:36:41 18 MR. FULLER: It would be easier to do it, I think,
19 in advance.
15:36:44 20 THE COURT: I think that's a great idea. What is
21 it that you would like to ask this jury that you are afraid
22 might not be proper?
15:36:54 23 MR. FULLER: Well, I'm going to try to just do
24 it -- I'm going to try to stand and like write down the ones
25 I don't -- ones I believe -- there are like six of them. So

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1 I'm going to ask them...
15:37:02 2 THE COURT: Well, let me -- first off --
15:37:04 3 MR. FULLER: Yeah.
15:37:04 4 THE COURT: -- the general rule is that you are
5 not allowed to go into the facts of the case, and you are
6 not allowed to tell them anything. You are allowed to ask
7 them questions so that you can intelligently exercise your
8 peremptory challenges.
15:37:20 9 MR. FULLER: So could you say, "Do you have a
10 strong feeling against Evangelical Christians?"
15:37:28 11 THE COURT: Yes. You can ask that question.
15:37:29 12 MR. FULLER: Okay. All right. That's what I
13 wanted. And I'll keep --
15:37:31 14 THE COURT: One thing that I'm a little bit afraid
15 you might do is ask people their personal sexual preference.
15:37:37 16 MR. FULLER: I won't.
15:37:38 17 THE COURT: You won't be allowed to do that.
15:37:39 18 MR. FULLER: Okay. I won't. I will just ask in
19 general, like what he was saying, "Do you have a family
20 friend?"
15:37:44 21 THE COURT: You can ask if people have strong
22 feelings for or against Evangelical Christians.
15:37:48 24 THE COURT: That's fine. Anything else?
15:37:51 25 MR. FULLER: So -- so it's going to be my turn to

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1 question them; is that right?
15:37:55 3 MR. FULLER: And then I get to like x six of them?
4 I'm trying to understand.
15:37:59 5 THE COURT: You get six total. So if you use all
6 six of them this time, you're stuck when they come back. So
7 you have to be strategic about that.
15:38:09 8 MR. FULLER: (Interposing.) (Indiscernable.)
15:38:09 9 THE COURT REPORTER: Please don't talk while he is
10 talking. I cannot hear you.
15:38:09 11 MR. FULLER: Oops.
15:38:09 12 THE COURT: You have to be strategic about that.
13 You get six total. So you have to decide for yourself how
14 many, if any, you want to strike on the first round. When
15 you strike however many you strike, we put new people up
16 there. The State interviews them until they are satisfied
17 with 12 or until they run out of challenges. You will
18 always be interviewing 12 people. That's your right so that
19 you have 12 people to look at before you exercise your
20 peremptories.
15:38:34 21 MR. FULLER: Okay. So, like, how many cycles of
22 this?
15:38:37 23 THE COURT: Until we get 12. Plus you get one
24 extra peremptory if we decide to pick an alternate, and I
25 probably will pick one alternate. But you can't use that

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1 peremptory until we get to the alternate. You get six for
2 these 12.
15:38:50 3 MR. FULLER: Okay. Is it open or can I -- I was
4 just thinking, can I explain why my face is peeling -- I was
5 out yacht racing all weekend -- because I just think I look
6 weird because there is actually skin coming off my face and
7 I've been sunburned. Can I mention that because I think it
8 kind of -- I have heard that juries make a lot of
9 opinions --
15:39:09 10 THE COURT: Don't -- don't get carried away with
11 that. I can't see anything wrong with your face --
15:39:13 13 THE COURT: -- but if you are self conscious about
14 it, sure. Just --
15:39:17 16 THE COURT: -- be reasonable about it.
15:39:18 18 THE COURT: The way you question these witnesses
19 (sic) is almost entirely within my discretion so as long as
20 you are respectful and reasonable in your questions, we are
21 good. Okay?
15:39:29 22 All right. Bring the jury back, please.
15:39:31 23 (The jury came back into the courtroom at 3:39 p.m.,
24 and the following proceedings were had in the presence
25 of the jury.)

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15:39:54 1 THE COURT: Mr. Burleson (ph), I appreciate you
2 waiting; Mr. McLamb, you -- if you guys will just wait, it
3 will be easier because I want everybody to go back in the
4 chair that they were in. So if you guys will just stand up
5 and wait for everybody to fill up the box, it will be a lot
6 easier.
15:41:40 7 All right. Let the record reflect that all 12
8 members of the jury who were passed by the State are
9 present in the jury box. The other potential jurors are
10 present in the courtroom.
15:41:48 11 And the jury is with you, Mr. Fuller.
15:41:50 12 (Jury selection continued.)
16:00:01 13 THE COURT: Let the record reflect all four of
14 those persons were present in the courtroom and are now
15 present in the jury box.
16:12:10 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I have some
18 matters that I need to take up outside your presence and
19 so -- I need to do that before 5:00 o'clock, and I don't
20 think it's going to really help anything to leave you
21 hanging while I do that. So I'm getting ready to excuse all
22 the jurors for the day. I'm sorry that some of you have to
23 come back tomorrow, but you do.
16:12:30 24 Please remember the rules. Don't be talking about
25 this case among yourselves or with anybody else. Keep an

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1 open mind. You haven't heard any evidence. Remember all
2 the rest of the rules. And be back outside this courtroom,
3 ready to proceed or be --
16:12:44 4 THE BAILIFF: Jury room.
16:12:44 5 THE COURT: -- be in the jury room, ready to
6 proceed no later than 9:30 in the morning. At this time,
7 everyone who is here for jury service, please exit the
8 courtroom.
11 the jury.)
16:14:25 12 MR. FULLER: I have a point of inquiry, Your
13 Honor.
16:14:37 14 THE COURT: All right. All potential jurors are
15 absent from the courtroom.
16:14:40 16 Yes, sir.
16:14:41 17 MR. FULLER: One of the theories or -- I wanted to
18 subpoena either Mr. Blake Courlang or a member of the
19 University Counsel's Office. The discovery documents show
20 very bizarre collusion between the UNC Office Of Counsel
21 that is -- that my attorneys who have looked at this, my
22 friends, have said is extremely bizarre that includes, for
23 instance, pictures of me and a Roman Catholic priest pulled
24 off my Facebook. That's -- you have people, professors who
25 are not even related to this suit, that have gotten into his

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1 file of discovery that just -- complained that they think
2 I'm an asshole, basically. And I think it's very germane
3 that we have someone that's going to subpoena -- I -- I
4 would like to be able to ask somebody: Why in the world is
5 all of this part of the prosecution file? And so I would
6 like to ask the -- the prosecutor or, if that's not
7 possible, one of the members of -- of the UNC Counsel's
8 Office that have forwarded all of this stuff.
16:15:43 9 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, the issues in this case as
10 I understand it are whether the State can prove beyond a
11 reasonable doubt that you sent these e-mail communications
12 repeatedly to Ms. Zerden -- I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing
13 her name -- and whether they can prove beyond a reasonable
14 doubt that your intention for doing that was to harass her.
15 Those are the issues in this case. I don't understand
16 how -- what you are trying to propound as evidence --
16:16:17 17 MR. FULLER: Sure. I --
16:16:17 18 THE COURT: -- is relevant to either one of those
19 two issues.
16:16:20 20 MR. FULLER: Yeah. It goes to impingement of
21 bias, to show that the real object of this case was merely
22 to punish me for views that they did not like and they
23 hated. And it's all in discovery how much they hate the
24 Roman Catholic Church and they hate people like me. It's in
25 the discovery. It shows this.

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16:16:38 1 THE COURT: It goes to whose bias? You are
2 allowed to --
16:16:43 3 MR. FULLER: The decision to --
16:16:45 4 THE COURT: You are allowed to investigate the
5 bias of a witness. The decision whether to prosecute you or
6 not is not an issue that's germane to this proceeding. It
7 might be germane to some other proceedings some day.
16:17:04 8 MR. FULLER: Uh-huh.
16:17:05 9 THE COURT: But that's not what -- that's not the
10 question that we are here to answer in this trial.
16:17:09 11 MR. FULLER: Sure. Okay. I understand.
16:17:10 12 THE COURT: It's hard for me to understand how
13 that's going to be admissible in evidence in this case. I
14 mean, you can question witnesses about if they have any bias
15 that might go to their credibility or their truthfulness.
16:17:22 16 MR. FULLER: Well, I guess the point I'm getting
17 to here is that UNC Chapel Hill police, by their own statute
18 law, must follow the dictates of Margaret Spellings.
19 They -- that's one of their -- their duties. And so I would
20 like to explore that issue because Margaret Spellings has
21 said she is going to support transgender rights, even if the
22 State passes HB2. So now you have a problem where you have
23 a police force that is not following state law. And I'm
24 trying to get to that. And I need someone -- I know if I
25 ask Ross Barbee, he is just going to say he has no idea.

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1 But I would like to get that into evidence somehow. And I
2 have, of course, tried to have subpoena documents; but they
3 turned it all down. So that's just what I'm trying to get
4 at, and I think it's very legitimate.
16:18:08 5 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, as I have
6 said, I'm not going to prevent you from subpoenaing anybody
7 you want to. And then if you call that person as a witness
8 and -- I will address the issues that might arise from that
9 as they occur. I'm not going to prejudge anything. All
10 right?
16:18:33 11 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yes, Your Honor.
16:18:35 12 THE COURT: Okay. I took a little bit of an early
13 recess. I keep looking at the clock. It's just my nature.
14 I'm not -- I'm going to give you plenty of time to get your
15 subpoenas done. I took a little bit of an early recess just
16 because I sensed that you were getting a little overwhelmed
17 and a little agitated, and I did that as an accommodation to
18 your condition.
16:18:57 20 THE COURT: If I was mistaken about that, forgive
21 me; but I would rather err on the side of caution and make
22 sure that you are in the proper state of mind and that
23 your -- that you have your faculties about you. And you
24 were getting a little bit disrespectful and rude, so I
25 thought maybe you could use a little bit of extra time to

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1 cool off.
16:19:20 2 Is that a fair observation?
16:19:23 3 MR. FULLER: That's great. It was great you put
4 it into the record because now you are completely
5 exonerated, but that's great. I appreciate that. And I am
6 tired. I have been, I mean, up -- I can't sleep so, yeah, I
7 am kind of in my --
16:19:33 8 THE COURT: Well, I'm just trying to -- I know
9 that you are not a lawyer and there's things about this that
10 you don't understand, and I'm trying to help you understand
11 why I took the recess early and that I'm trying to
12 accommodate your situation, so --
16:19:48 13 MR. FULLER: Yes.
16:19:49 14 THE COURT: -- if you find yourself in a situation
15 where you feel like you might be misinterpreted by me, I
16 don't think you have done a thing in the world today that's
17 disrespectful toward me or toward any of these jurors or
18 toward the State. I -- I don't have any problem with
19 anything you have done today except talking to Ms. Zerden,
20 and we have talked about that.
16:20:17 21 MR. FULLER: Yes.
16:20:17 22 THE COURT: So as far as I'm concerned, you are
23 doing fine. But if -- if -- if you need further
24 accommodations from me, I'm inviting you to do that and
25 just, you know.

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16:20:32 2 THE COURT: I'm all for you coming in here and
3 defending yourself. I'm -- I did that for people for a
4 long, long time. So you are doing great as far as I'm
5 concerned. Okay?
16:20:48 7 THE COURT: All right. Anything else for you
8 before we recess for the day?
16:20:52 9 MR. FULLER: That's it. I just want to make sure
10 I get these subpoenas, and that would be wonderful.
16:20:58 11 THE COURT: Okay. Then I think I have given you
12 plenty of time to do that.
16:21:01 13 Anything for the State before we recess?
16:21:02 14 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, just quickly, I know
15 the jury has been dismissed for the day.
16:21:06 17 MR. FULLER: For the record, the State would lodge
18 a Batson objection to the removal of juror number five,
19 Mr. Michael Capps. I think Your Honor is familiar with
20 Batson v. Kentucky, which held that peremptory challenges
21 cannot be used to systematically strike otherwise qualified
22 jurors from the panel on the basis of race. Since then, the
23 Court has prohibited the use of peremptory challenges on
24 account of a juror's sex in JEB v. Alabama. Your Honor, the
25 State contends that Mr. Capps was stricken by Mr. Fuller

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1 based on his sexual preference. He even said, "I'm not
2 going to dismiss both people who are in same sex couples.
3 I'll just dismiss one." We would just like to put that into
4 the record, Your Honor.
16:21:50 5 THE COURT: Okay. It's in the record.
16:21:51 6 MR. COURLANG: Thank you.
16:21:51 7 THE COURT: I don't find that you have made a
8 prima facie case yet. If you think there is another
9 problem, let me know.
16:21:56 10 MR. COURLANG: Thank you, sir.
16:22:00 12 All right. Mr. Sheriff, put this court in recess
13 until 9:30 in the morning.
16:22:06 15
16:22:06 16 (Volume Two ends here on page 137. The trial transcript
17 continues in Volume Three at page 138 and was reported by
18 this same court reporter, Kimmel G. McDiarmid, RPR, Official
19 Court Reporter, whose certificate is at the end of
20 Volume Four.)
21
22
23
24
25

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)
)
Defendant. )
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TRANSCRIPT, Volume III of IV
Wednesday, 8 August 2018
Pages 138 - 321
********************************
Jury Trial
-----------------------------------------------------------

919-644-4600
For the Pro Se

2201 Lynnwood Drive
Wilmington NC 28403
910.262.2359
napier@alum.mit.edu
For UNC: David T. Lambeth, III, Assistant University

Counsel
Office of University Counsel
Bynum Hall, 222 East Cameron Avenue, Campus
Box 9105
Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27599
(919)843-8245
dlambeth@email.unc.edu
140
INDEX
JURY IMPANELED 150
STATE'S OPENING STATEMENT 156
DEFENDANT'S OPENING STATEMENT 160
STATE'S EVIDENCE BEGINS 168
Discuss w/Court Fuller Proposed Evidence by Fuller 285
Discuss w/Court Fuller proposed evidence by Fuller 311
Discuss w/Court Quash Subpoena of Bowen by 313

Lambeth/Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON QUASH SUBPOENA OF BOWEN 314
Discuss w/Court Fuller Proposed Evidence by 316

Fuller/Courlang
WITNESS: PAGE
Ross Barbee

Mark Shiver
Lisa de Sax Zerden

141
EXHIBITS
STATE'S EXHIBITS -------------------------------------------
1 1/25/17 e-mail cease and desist letter 179 180
2 CD of What Matters in NC podcast 223 225
3 collection of e-mail 240 253
EXHIBITS
1 e-mails between R. Barbee and J. David 198 201
2 Zerden message to SoWoSO 292 292
3 1/25/17 Barbee e-mail 205 206

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09:27:32 1 (Court resumed session Wednesday, 8 August 2018 at 9:31
2 a.m.)
09:31:37 6 THE COURT: Let the record reflect Mr. Fuller is
7 present. The State is present. All jurors are absent.
09:31:44 8 Anything for either side before we call for the
9 jury?
09:31:47 10 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor, one thing from the
11 State. I have received word from the bailiffs that Mr.
12 Fuller is writing messages to the jury pool and pointing his
13 computer at the jury pool. I am not -- I would ask the
14 Court to order him not to do that.
09:31:57 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I don't understand what
16 you are trying to tell me. He is doing what?
09:32:02 17 MR. COURLANG: Mr. Fuller -- I have received word
18 from the bailiffs that Mr. Fuller is writing messages on his
19 computer and then pointing his computer at the jury pool. I
20 just ask the Court to order Mr. Fuller not to write any
21 messages to the jury.
09:32:12 22 MR. FULLER: I haven't written any -- I have no
23 idea what he is talking about. I'm taking notes on this
24 about who to exclude, but I have certainly not done anything
25 unlawful.

143
09:32:21 1 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then it shouldn't be a
2 problem if I order you not to do something that you are not
3 doing. So don't write messages on your computer and direct
4 them toward the jury pool.
09:32:34 5 MR. FULLER: Okay. I --
09:32:34 6 THE COURT: You can write on your computer.
09:32:36 7 MR. FULLER: I haven't done that.
09:32:37 8 THE COURT: I didn't say you have done it. I'm
9 telling you not to. Okay?
09:32:40 10 MR. FULLER: Okay. I'm --
09:32:40 11 THE COURT: Anything for Mr. Fuller before we call
12 for a jury?
09:32:44 13 MR. FULLER: Well, I mean, that just really irks
14 me.
09:32:48 15 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I have no idea whether
16 that's true or not; and I'm just telling you not to do it.
17 I'm not saying you did. There is no need to get irked.
18 It's fine. All right.
09:32:58 19 MR. FULLER: Okay. Again, I believe it's the
20 Sixth Amendment, my ability to request documents and
21 witnesses in my favor. We are here. I have a number of --
22 thanks to Your Honor, anyway we have zero people here. And
23 so I would again ask and -- and I will have to say I don't
24 think it would be appropriate for me to participate in the
25 trial without any assistance at all from -- in having

144
1 witnesses in my favor.
09:33:33 2 THE COURT: Have you subpoenaed any witnesses?
09:33:35 3 MR. FULLER: I have. And none of them -- and they
4 are all state employees. You know, it's just one of those
5 things. The State is the witness. The State is the
6 prosecution, and the State is serving, and they are state
7 employees. But anyway, none of them are here.
09:33:52 8 THE COURT: Would you like me to issue show cause
9 orders and compel their appearance?
09:33:56 10 MR. FULLER: Yes -- yes, Your Honor.
09:33:58 11 THE COURT: And who would those people be?
09:33:59 12 MR. FULLER: That would be: Gary Bowen, the Dean
13 of the UNC School of Social Work, who shows up very
14 prominently in the discovery; as well as Chief McCracken of
15 the UNC Police Department, who is very involved in this
16 because there was a -- an internal affairs complaint, but I
17 understand that he is out of town so I think, in his
18 absence, the supervisor of Ross Barbee is a Officer Ellis
19 that shows up in the discovery documents, and I would ask
20 that he be the representative; as well as Terri Phoenix, who
21 was here yesterday, and she was one of the State's witnesses
22 who brought the unsuccessful case. And so I think it's
23 quite relevant to have her. So those are the three people.
09:34:57 24 THE COURT: All right. Is anybody here to
25 represent any of those folks that would care to be heard

145
1 about their subpoenas?
09:35:04 2 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. We have
3 Mr. Lambeth -- L-A-M-B-E-T-H -- to represent Mr. Bowens
4 (sic) and --
09:35:19 5 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Bowen and who?
09:35:21 6 MR. COURLANG: Mr. McCracken, M-C-C-R-A-C-K-E-N.
09:35:21 7 Your Honor, just as a administrative matter, Terri
8 Phoenix's pronoun is "he," not "she."
09:35:29 9 MR. FULLER: And that's a transgender claim.
09:35:32 10 THE COURT: I'm not going to get into an argument
11 about that. We will to refer to that person as Terri
12 Phoenix.
09:35:39 13 All right. Mr. Lambeth.
09:35:41 14 MR. LAMBETH: Good morning, Your Honor. David
15 Lambeth from the UNC Office of Counsel. I just explained to
16 Mr. Fuller -- well, first of all, I would say that my
17 understanding is these subpoenas have not yet been served.
18 I tried to accept service as an authorized representative of
19 the employees, but the sheriff's office understandably said
20 they needed to be served on the employees themselves.
09:35:57 21 I know they have reached out. Terri Phoenix is
22 here, and I believe, once Terri is served, is fine with
23 testifying. As far as the subpoena to Chief McCracken, he
24 is on vacation; and therefore, I don't anticipate, you
25 know, with the timing of this that Chief McCracken will be

146
1 served during this trial. And then with Gary Bowen, I
2 believe we would be moving to quash that subpoena. No
3 subpoena has been issued yet for Mr. Ellis, but I would
4 have to consult with him and with the Attorney General's
5 Office, who actually would most likely make the appearance
6 for the motion to quash.
09:36:32 7 If Your Honor would prefer, I could certainly
8 argue it; but based upon the statute, I need to consult
9 with the Attorney General's Office first.
09:36:41 10 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to hold off issuing
11 show cause orders, considering that my information at this
12 time is that Mr. McCracken is not willfully absent because
13 he is on vacation and Mr. Bowen is making a motion to
14 quash -- so I will hear that at some point -- and that Terri
15 Phoenix is present in the courtroom.
09:37:09 16 We are going to finish jury selection.
09:37:12 17 Mr. Fuller, this doesn't really become an issue
18 until it's your time to start calling witnesses anyway. So
19 if they are not here when it's time for you to call
20 witnesses, we will deal with it at that time. Okay.
09:37:28 21 MR. LAMBETH: Thank you, Your Honor.
09:37:29 23 Anything else, Mr. Fuller?
09:37:31 24 MR. FULLER: Nothing, Your Honor.
09:37:32 25 THE COURT: Okay. Bring in the jury, please.

147
09:39:01 1 MR. FULLER: I have one question before the jury
2 comes in.
09:39:07 3 THE COURT: Hang on a second.
09:39:11 4 BAILIFF COLLINS: Hold them out. Hold them out,
5 Andrew.
09:39:14 6 THE COURT: All right. All jurors are absent.
09:39:16 7 Yes, sir.
09:39:16 8 MR. FULLER: I always forget that I think it's
9 best we go over to avoid conflict in front of the jury:
10 What topics can I not discuss? For instance, is it possible
11 for me to present a theory or even mention the ongoing
12 federal civil litigation, even in passing, without even
13 explaining the issues?
09:39:42 14 THE COURT: What says the State?
09:39:44 15 MR. COURLANG: I would argue that, Your Honor,
16 that the federal litigation is not relevant to the criminal
17 matter. I would object to any extraneous litigations being
18 argued to the jury or spoken in front of the jury.
09:40:00 19 THE COURT: All right. Any -- oh, go ahead.
09:40:02 20 MR. COURLANG: I apologize. I would just ask that
21 anything that is said to the jury be kept within the
22 confines of this one criminal case.
09:40:08 23 MR. FULLER: I --
09:40:10 25 Are any of the State's witnesses parties to that

148
1 lawsuit?
09:40:14 2 MR. FULLER: Yes, they are.
09:40:22 3 THE COURT: I'm going to rule on whether that's
4 admissible at the time you ask the question. It may sort of
5 depend on the context of where we are.
09:40:32 7 THE COURT: It could possibly go to that witness's
8 bias.
09:40:35 9 MR. FULLER: Bias.
09:40:36 10 THE COURT: But I'm not going to let you get into
11 it in jury selection.
09:40:39 12 MR. FULLER: A follow-up question: I was a little
13 confused yesterday in the -- about whether I can refer to
14 free speech or not or -- or to what -- the thing is so
15 legally complicated that -- to what matter of the law can I
16 get into?
09:40:56 17 THE COURT: Well, in jury selection, not much at
18 all. I mean, this is the time for you to ask them questions
19 about their attitudes about their life experience; so not in
20 jury selection.
09:41:12 21 MR. FULLER: Okay. Okay.
09:41:12 22 THE COURT: Okay. Great. Thank you.
09:41:14 23 Bring the jury in, please.
09:41:18 24 (The prospective jurors came back into the courtroom at
25 9:41 a.m. and the following proceedings were had in the

149
1 presence of the jury pool.)
09:43:12 2 THE COURT: All right. Good morning, ladies and
3 gentlemen. Welcome back. Let the record reflect that the
4 ten jurors who have been passed by both sides are present in
5 the jury box.
09:43:21 6 Madam Clerk, at this time would you randomly
7 select two of these folks to fill seats number five and
8 number ten.
09:43:28 9 THE CLERK: Complied.
09:48:28 11 THE COURT: Thank you very much. In the exercise
12 of my discretion, since this trial seems likely to last at
13 least until tomorrow, I'm going to select one alternate
14 juror.
09:48:41 15 Madam Clerk, would you please fill the alternate's
16 chair?
09:48:44 17 THE CLERK: (Complied.)
09:51:18 19 THE COURT: All right. We now have a jury. Those
20 of you who were selected for jury service and have not been
21 selected for this case, I have good news for you. We don't
22 have any other jury trials in this district this week so you
23 have completed your jury service for the next two years.
24 You are free to go. You don't have to go; but if you are
25 going to go, please go now. Thank you very much.

150
09:51:42 1 (Unselected prospective jurors left the courtroom at
2 9:51 a.m.)
09:52:44 3 THE COURT: All right. Madam Clerk, would you
4 please impanel this jury.
09:52:46 5 (Twelve jurors and one alternate was selected. All 13
6 jurors were impaneled.)
09:52:59 8 Ladies and gentlemen, you have been selected and
9 impaneled to serve as jurors in the case of the State of
10 North Carolina v. Napier Fuller. At this time I want to
11 explain to you the manner in which we will proceed as we
12 attempt together to evaluate the evidence in this case.
09:53:13 13 First, the parties will have an opportunity to
14 make opening statements. The purpose of an opening
15 statement is narrow and limited. It is an outline of what
16 the party believes the competent and admissible evidence
17 will be. An opening statement is not evidence and must not
18 be considered by you as evidence.
09:53:32 19 Following the opening statements, evidence will be
20 offered. Witnesses will be placed under oath. They will
21 sit right here, and they will be questioned by the parties.
22 It may be that documents and other tangible exhibits will
23 be offered and received as evidence. If any exhibit is
24 given to you to examine, you should examine it carefully,
25 individually, and without comment. The rule about not

151
1 commenting on the case or talking to each other applies
2 even when you are sitting in the courtroom.
09:54:01 3 It's the right of the attorneys or the parties to
4 object when testimony or other evidence is offered that the
5 party believes is not admissible. If I sustain an
6 objection to a question, you should disregard the question,
7 disregard the answer if it's been given, draw no inference
8 from the question or the answer, and don't speculate as to
9 what the witness would have said if allowed to answer.
09:54:23 10 If I overrule an objection, you must not give such
11 evidence any more weight than if the objection had not been
12 made.
09:54:31 13 If I grant a motion to strike all or part of the
14 answer of a witness to a question, you must disregard and
15 not consider the evidence that's been stricken.
09:54:41 16 During the course of the trial, it may be that
17 questions of law will arise that need to be considered by
18 the Court outside of your presence. If this happens, I may
19 ask you to go the jury room for just a few minutes. Don't
20 worry or speculate about what we are doing in here. We
21 will merely be considering questions of law that have to be
22 heard outside your presence. All of the competent evidence
23 in this case will be presented while you are present in the
24 courtroom.
09:55:07 25 When the evidence is completed, the parties will

152
1 make their final statements or arguments. The final
2 arguments of the parties are not evidence, but are given to
3 assist you in evaluating the evidence. Your duty is to
4 decide the facts from the evidence. You and you alone are
5 the judges of the facts. It's important that you be fair
6 and attentive during the trial. You will see and hear the
7 evidence and decide the facts. You will then apply the law
8 that I will give you to those facts.
09:55:36 9 To be an effective juror, you must not be
10 influenced to any degree by personal feelings, sympathy for
11 or prejudice against any of the parties involved in this
12 case. The fact that a criminal charge has been filed
13 against Mr. Fuller is not evidence. He is innocent of any
14 crime unless and until the State proves his guilt beyond a
15 reasonable doubt.
09:56:00 16 Finally, there are a list of rules that the law
17 requires me to read. These are orders of the Court and
18 will be strictly enforced so pay attention.
09:56:10 19 First, you must not talk about the case among
20 yourselves. The only place this case may be discussed is
21 in the jury room and then only after you begin your
22 deliberations. You must not talk about this case with
23 anyone else, including members of your family. You can
24 tell people that you are on the jury, what your schedule
25 is, how long you think you are going to be here, that sort

153
1 of thing. But don't talk about the evidence in the case.
09:56:32 2 And don't allow anybody else to talk with you or
3 say anything in your presence about this case. That's one
4 of the reasons we have you wear those jury badges. There
5 may be people associated with this case who haven't been in
6 the courtroom yet. And you don't know who they are; they
7 don't know who you are. So please wear those jury badges,
8 as you are, so that anybody who sees you knows not to be
9 talking about the case anywhere near you. If anyone does
10 communicate or attempt to communicate with you or in your
11 presence about this case, notify a uniformed sheriff's
12 deputy of that fact immediately.
09:57:07 13 I want to emphasize that in addition to not
14 speaking face-to-face with anybody about the case, you
15 should not engage in any form of electronic communication
16 about this trial until it's over; and that includes Twitter
17 blogging, Facebook, texting, Instant Messaging, anything
18 else that I don't know about. Just don't be communicating
19 with anybody about the case in any fashion.
09:57:31 20 Third, you have to keep your cell phone turned off
21 when you are in the courtroom or the jury room. If you
22 find that you need to take a phone call or make a phone
23 call while you are in the jury room, knock on the door and
24 let the sheriff know. You absolutely can't use the
25 telephone in the jury room, but you can use it outside the

154
1 jury room if you will just let us know.
09:57:52 2 Fourth, while you sit as a juror in this case, you
3 are not to form an opinion about the guilt or innocence of
4 Mr. Fuller, nor are you to express to anyone else any
5 opinion about the case until you begin your deliberations.
6 Don't talk or communicate in any way with any of the
7 parties, the attorneys, the witnesses, any interested
8 parties in this case. Just steer clear of them. This rule
9 applies inside as well as outside of the courtroom; and it
10 prohibits any type of conversation, whether about the
11 evidence or the weather or just to pass the time of day.
12 As I have told you, it's important that you not only be
13 completely impartial; you must always give the appearance
14 of being impartial. Don't give anybody any reason to
15 question why you are in anyone else's presence.
09:58:38 16 Do not read or listen to any news media coverage
17 of this case or trial, including television, newspaper,
18 radio, or Internet account. Newspaper, radio, television,
19 and Internet accounts may not be accurate or they may
20 contain references to matters which are not proper for your
21 consideration. Your verdict must be based solely on the
22 evidence presented during this trial and no other source.
09:59:01 23 And having said that, I notice that there is a
24 television camera in the courtroom. They are here with my
25 permission because the courts of this state are open to the

155
1 public. And one of the ways that we open the courts to the
2 public is we allow our proceedings to be broadcast.
3 However, there is a very important exception to that; and
4 the camera operator knows he is not allowed to photograph
5 you. Your name is not going to be in the media. Your
6 picture is not going to be on television or in the
7 newspaper so don't worry about that. Don't let the
8 presence of the media distract you from your job.
09:59:35 9 Seventh, you must not visit the scene or the place
10 that's the subject matter of this trial, and don't make any
11 independent inquiry or investigation about this matter.
12 You may not conduct any research, including Internet
13 research, to look for any information regarding the case.
09:59:52 14 I find that this is the rule that's the most often
15 violated by jurors, and they do it for what they believe
16 are good reasons, and they do it with a good heart, but let
17 me tell you why you can't do that. If you hear a word that
18 you don't understand or a legal term that I haven't
19 explained as well as you would like and you have some
20 questions about that, then you are going to be tempted to
21 try to figure it out on your own because you want to do the
22 right thing. I understand that. But it's not fair to
23 either side for you to be doing independent research.
24 Don't get on Google and try to figure out what these words
25 mean. You simply must decide this case based only on what

156
1 you hear in this courtroom.
10:00:36 2 Each of you must obey each of these rules to the
3 letter. Unless you do so, there is no way the parties can
4 be assured of absolute fairness and impartiality. It is
5 your duty, while this trial is in progress or while it is
6 in recess or while you are in the jury room, to see that
7 you remain a fair and impartial trier of the facts.
10:00:55 8 We are now ready for the opening statements of
9 counsel, and the jury is with the State.
10:00:59 11 STATE'S OPENING STATEMENT
10:01:09 13 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
14 just to reintroduce myself, my name is Blake Courlang. I
15 represent the State of North Carolina in this case, State
16 versus Mr. Napier Fuller. It is my duty as an Assistant
17 District Attorney to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that
18 Mr. Fuller did indeed send harassing e-mails to Dr. Lisa
19 Zerden.
10:01:34 20 This case is a straightforward case. It boils
21 down to one thing: Did Mr. Fuller intentionally send
22 harassing e-mails to Dr. Zerden? There might be attempts
23 by Mr. Fuller to make this more complex, more confusing
24 than it actually is. But I submit to you this is a
25 straightforward case that boils down to that one issue.

157
STATE'S OPENING STATEMENT
10:02:04 1 This opening statement is a bit of a roadmap. I'm
2 going to be telling you what I contend the evidence will be
3 at trial that you will hear today and possibly into
4 tomorrow. You are going to hear from three people from the
5 State. You are going to hear from Investigator Ross
6 Barbee. He is with the UNC Chapel Hill Police, been a law
7 enforcement officer for about 24 years. You will hear that
8 he investigated this particular matter. Twenty-four-year
9 officer, honest, hardworking, did everything he could not
10 to bring this to the court system; sent Mr. Fuller a cease
11 and desist letter, saying, "Please stop sending these
12 e-mails." Mr. Fuller did not comply with that and kept
13 sending the e-mails.
10:02:49 14 You are going to hear from Dr. Lisa Zerden, the
15 recipient of these e-mails. Who is Dr. Zerden? Dr. Zerden
16 is a dean at the UNC School of Social Work dedicated --
10:03:08 17 THE COURT: Mr. Courlang, approach the bench,
18 please.
10:03:11 19 Mr. Fuller, come on up here. Come here.
10:03:15 20 (A bench conference was held off the record and out of
21 the hearing of the jury beginning at 10:03 a.m.)
10:03:22 22 MR. COURLANG: Who is Dr. Zerden? The dean of the
23 UNC School of Social Work, recipient of these e-mails.
24 Dr. Zerden did not know who Mr. Fuller was prior to
25 receiving these e-mails, had no contact with Mr. Fuller

158
1 prior to receiving these e-mails, did not ask for these
2 e-mails, did not solicit these e-mails. The only reason she
3 received these e-mails is because Mr. Fuller had a
4 difference of opinion regarding Dr. Zerden's support for
5 LGBTQ. Mr. Fuller felt, since he had this difference of
6 opinion, that he had the right to send harassing e-mails to
7 people of differing opinions. What gives Mr. Fuller this
8 right? Nothing. Nothing gives Mr. Fuller the right to
9 harass other people based on some support for LGBTQ issues.
10:04:23 10 You are also going to hear from Mr. Mark Shiver.
11 Mr. Mark Shiver is the emcee of a podcast that interviewed
12 Mr. Fuller. You are going to hear the podcast as well.
13 And through that podcast, you are going to hear through
14 Mr. Fuller's own words why he sent these e-mails, what was
15 his purpose, what was his intention, his admission to
16 sending these e-mails. We will play that for you as well.
10:04:51 17 A quick roadmap of what we believe the evidence
18 will be at trial: Between December 2016 and January 2017,
19 approximately a month, Dr. Zerden received approximately 12
20 e-mails total from Mr. Fuller, some in the course of a
21 matter of hours. The State contends the e-mails are filled
22 with harassing language, threats -- they are abusive; they
23 are annoying -- and that Mr. Fuller intentionally sent
24 these. As I stated earlier, Dr. Zerden did not know who
25 Mr. Fuller was. Dr. Zerden is a dean here at UNC.

159
1 Mr. Fuller lives in Wilmington. They had no prior
2 connection.
10:05:34 3 We will show through the defendant's own words
4 that Mr. Fuller knew that these e-mails were harassing,
5 that they were threatening, that they were abusive. We
6 will hear that the defendant continued, Mr. Fuller, to send
7 these e-mails from different e-mail addresses, all with the
8 purpose of harassing Dr. Zerden.
10:05:57 9 Now, the judge is going to instruct you on the
10 law; but we just ask you to follow the judge's instructions
11 and remember this case is a straightforward case. It boils
12 down to the fact that Mr. Fuller willfully and
13 intentionally sent harassing e-mails to Dr. Zerden based on
14 his own personal animus towards LGBTQ rights that
15 Dr. Zerden supports. Mr. Fuller had no right to send these
16 e-mails, but he did it anyway. Mr. Fuller was asked to
17 stop these e-mails. He did it anyway. He sent them from
18 multiple e-mail addresses. He kept sending these e-mails.
10:06:41 19 Lastly, I contend this is a serious case. The
20 State is taking this seriously. Dr. Zerden is taking this
21 seriously. Investigator Barbee is taking this seriously.
22 I ask that you take this seriously as well. This is your
23 time. You are here, taking time out of your work, out of
24 your life, away from your family to serve on this jury; and
25 we thank you for that. We would only do this if we thought

160
DEFENDANT'S OPENING STATEMENT
1 this was a serious case.
10:07:13 2 We thank you for serving on this jury. We
3 appreciate that Mr. Fuller has the Constitutional right to
4 have a trial by a jury. The State appreciates that.
5 That's what the Constitution guarantees. Any single person
6 who is accused of a crime deserves to be tried in front of
7 12 of their peers. We thank you for being here. We just
8 ask you to take this case seriously and remember what I
9 said. Thank you.
10:07:36 10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, you have an
11 option. You can make an opening statement now or you can
12 reserve that until it's your turn to put on evidence.
10:07:43 13 MR. FULLER: I would like to make an opening
14 statement now.
10:07:46 15 THE COURT: Okay. You -- you have the jury.
10:07:47 16 MR. FULLER: Okay. And I would like to get near
17 them here.
10:07:50 18 THE COURT: Sure. That's fine.
10:07:50 19 DEFENDANT'S OPENING STATEMENT
10:07:51 20 MR. FULLER: Hey. My name is Napier Fuller. I'm
21 not going to be taking the stand so this is the only time
22 for me to talk a little bit about myself and a little bit
23 about my life because it's very relevant.
10:08:04 24 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are not allowed to put
25 on evidence in your opening statement. You can only give a

161
1 forecast of what you believe the evidence is going to be so
2 if are you not going to testify, you can't testify now. All
3 right. Go ahead.
10:08:14 4 MR. FULLER: Could I say that I'm like a Roman
5 Catholic?
10:08:17 6 THE COURT: No, you can't. That's evidence.
10:08:20 7 MR. FULLER: Okay. Okay. Well, I'm pretty fast
8 on my feet. We will talk a little bit then about free
9 speech. That dates from the 1700s here in the United
10 States. And it's one of the wonderful things about being an
11 American citizen is we have free speech. I'm going to read
12 you both from the Constitution of North Carolina as well as
13 the U.S. Constitution.
10:08:40 14 And expressing yourself to someone that's a
15 professor of social work, that person's job is basically to
16 instruct others in how to live their life. And so
17 certainly I think it's important for people that are --
18 that are citizens to communicate with people and to tell
19 them that -- especially when they are actively involved in
20 lobbying the governor -- that you disagree with their
21 positions.
10:09:09 22 Twelve e-mails is not very many e-mails. We all
23 get e-mails. E-mails is a medium that you have to open. I
24 actually have a graduate degree in computer science from
25 MIT. I have a patent in that field. And we can get -- we

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1 will get into a great deal of -- of details about these
2 e-mails; but I will just say from the outset that, when you
3 open an e-mail, it's just sitting there, that little
4 headline. That's it. It's a conscious act of you to press
5 "open," and then you are causing a computer program to
6 actually go and get the text and get the pictures off
7 remote servers so I think this is the most ridiculous case
8 that's ever been put forth. I have been told I can't say
9 very much, but I will say there is pending litigation from
10 me --
10:10:03 11 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I told you that you can't
12 say much in your opening statement because --
10:10:07 13 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, there is --
10:10:07 14 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, don't talk when I'm
15 talking.
10:10:09 16 I will remind you that the purpose of an opening
17 statement is narrow anted limited. It is an outline of
18 what the party believes the competent and admissible
19 evidence will be. You will be allowed to argue your case
20 in your closing argument.
10:10:21 22 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
10:10:23 23 MR. FULLER: Yes. So -- so we will talk a lot
24 about the technology of e-mail and how you willingly have to
25 open it. And I will provide evidence that shows that in

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1 this case, people were opening these things 900 times.
2 That's pretty insane. But what typically you are going
3 to -- when you get someone that's opening something 900
4 times, it means they are forwarding it to their friends.
5 And we are going to show evidence, similar to sort of the
6 Duke Lacrosse lynch mob, that you had some e-mails that
7 ended up getting forwarded around the School of Social Work,
8 creating more and more outrage and more people saying this
9 and that; and that this thing sort of blew up out of
10 nothing; that when we actually look at the e-mails, you are
11 going to find -- one of my lawyers just laugh -- fell on the
12 floor laughing. He thought it was so funny. I mean, it is
13 just a ridiculous case that we're having to spend time.
10:11:21 14 And I serve -- or until about a month ago -- as a
15 judge in a specialty court in the State of North Carolina.
10:11:30 16 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to that.
10:11:32 17 THE COURT: Sustained. Mr. Fuller, you can't --
18 you can't project evidence that's not going to come into
19 evidence.
10:11:40 20 MR. FULLER: Yes. Okay. Well, I will rephrase
21 that. I have a lot of experience in the courtroom, although
22 I'm not an attorney; and that's why I chose to represent
23 myself here. And so we are going to look at the
24 Constitution -- or rather the statute law of the university
25 police department. It's a big thing we are going to look

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1 at. Why did the university police department get involved
2 in this case?
10:12:03 3 We are going to hear from Ms. Zerden, who was in
4 Washington, D.C. when she started to open these e-mails.
5 So my question would be, when you actually look at the UNC
6 police, I believe they can only cover the physical
7 jurisdiction of the campus. So we are going to have a lot
8 of concern about where these e-mails were opened, in what
9 jurisdiction they fell under because when we start to look
10 at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill police,
11 they -- their job is to do what the administration says.
12 So it's like someone has their own private police
13 department and they can just get people thrown in jail.
10:12:40 14 And that's what happened. Someone just got mad.
15 They didn't like my message, and they had my ass thrown in
16 jail. And I have tried very hard to show you the video of
17 that arrest. We had five police cars --
10:12:52 18 MR. COURLANG: Objection, Your Honor.
10:12:54 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you may not get into
20 matters that are not going to be admitted into evidence; and
21 you are lapsing into argument --
10:13:02 22 MR. FULLER: I'm sorry.
10:13:02 23 THE COURT: -- and the argument comes at the end
24 of the case. This is not the time to argue.
10:13:07 25 MR. FULLER: Okay. I will go back and read you --

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1 and I don't want you to -- this -- this -- people to listen
2 to this, and I'm going to the read it twice here.
10:13:16 3 The First Amendment: Congress shall make no law
4 abridging --
10:13:19 5 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object.
10:13:20 6 MR. FULLER: -- the freedom of speech.
10:13:21 7 THE COURT: Wait. Hang on.
10:13:21 8 MR. FULLER: They don't even want the jury to even
9 know about freedom of speech.
10:13:24 10 THE COURT: Mister -- Mr. Fuller, when an
11 objection is on the floor, please stop talking so that I can
12 rule on the objection. The objection is overruled. You may
13 continue.
10:13:33 14 MR. FULLER: Thank you, Your Honor.
10:13:35 15 [as read] Congress shall make no law abridging
16 freedom of speech.
10:13:39 17 That's the U.S. Constitution dating from the
18 1700s. And from the 14th Amendment:
10:13:44 19 [as read] No state shall make or enforce any law
20 which shall abridge the privileges or immunities
21 of citizens of the United States -- and I do have
22 my passport around to show it to you later, anyway
23 it's around somewhere -- nor shall deprive any
24 person of life, liberty, or property without due
25 process of law.

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10:14:07 1 I'm facing 60 days in jail for this, by the way.
10:14:11 2 And I will talk about the North Carolina
3 Constitution. This is Article 1, Section 14. It states:
10:14:20 4 [as read] Freedom of speech and of the press are
5 the two great bulwarks of liberty and therefore
6 shall never be restrained. And no person shall be
7 taken, imprisoned or desensitized of his freehold
8 liberties and privileges.
10:14:43 9 I have already been in jail for a whole day on
10 this thing. So I want you to keep that in the back of your
11 mind, and we will get into this, and -- and you can
12 determine -- I have faith that you will make the right
13 decision and that I -- I won't be sent to jail for 60 days,
14 so -- over this case. That's the end of my opening
15 statement.
10:15:02 16 THE COURT: Okay. Approach the bench, please. I
17 forgot to ask you guys a question before we started the
18 evidence.
10:15:23 21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, one thing that I
22 forgot to discuss, with the consent of both parties in the
23 exercise of my discretion, I will allow you to take notes;
24 but I do want to give you some cautionary instructions about
25 that.

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10:15:37 1 Your notes are not a transcript of the trial. You
2 don't have to take notes if you don't want to. That's
3 completely up to you. But if you do choose to take notes,
4 you can use those notes to refresh your recollection during
5 the deliberation process in this case. Please be careful
6 in taking notes. Part of your job is to determine the
7 credibility of witnesses, and it's hard to do that if you
8 are not watching them. And also, be aware that the notes
9 of one juror are not entitled to any undue consideration
10 over the memory of another juror. They are simply to aid
11 your recollection if you want to use them.
10:16:10 12 Mr. Sheriff, would you please -- and we have a
13 method for that. I'm not going to let you take notes on
14 your own stuff. We have notepads for you. Feel free to
15 write anything you want to in those notepads because I'm
16 not going to let anybody see them but you. And when the
17 trial is over, your notes will be destroyed.
10:16:25 18 So if you would go ahead and distribute those
19 notepads.
10:16:29 20 Only take notes in the notebooks please. If you
21 have an exhibit passed to you, don't write on the exhibit.
22 Write in your notebook. Thank you.
10:16:38 23 BAILIFF COLLINS: (Passed out notebooks.)
10:17:04 24 THE COURT: Folks, when we take recess, if you
25 will just leave your notebook in your chair, the sheriff

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1 will collect them and keep them safe while we are not in
2 session.
10:17:14 3 All right. All the jurors -- do those notebooks
4 have juror numbers on them?
10:17:19 5 BAILIFF COLLINS: They do.
10:17:20 6 THE COURT: Okay. Has everybody got the right
7 one? Let's see, Ms. Campbell, you're number 1.
8 Mr. Burleson, you're number 12.
10:17:26 9 Has everybody got the right one?
10:17:29 10 Okay. Great.
10:17:30 11 At this time I call upon the State to call its
12 first witness.
10:17:33 13 STATE'S EVIDENCE BEGINS
10:17:33 14 MR. COURLANG: The State would call Investigator
15 Ross Barbee.
10:17:35 16 ROSS BARBEE
10:17:35 17 having been called as a witness by and for THE STATE,
10:17:35 18 and having been duly sworn,
10:17:35 19 was examined and testified as follows:
10:17:46 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COURLANG:
10:17:58 21 Q. Good morning, Investigator. Can you please state
22 your name for the Court.
10:18:03 23 A. Ross, R-O-S-S; Barbee, B-A-R-B-E-E.
10:18:07 24 THE COURT: Is that microphone on?
10:18:09 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

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DIRECT OF ROSS BARBEE BY MR. COURLANG
10:18:10 1 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
10:18:10 2 BY MR. COURLANG:
10:18:10 3 Q. And how are you employed, sir?
10:18:11 4 A. The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
5 Police Department.
10:18:14 6 Q. And how long have you been with University of
7 North Carolina Chapel Hill?
10:18:18 8 A. About 17 years.
10:18:19 9 Q. Okay. And did you have any previous law
10 enforcement experience?
10:18:23 11 A. Yes, sir.
10:18:23 12 Q. And where was that?
10:18:25 13 A. I worked for the Graham Police Department for
14 about eight years.
10:18:30 15 THE COURT REPORTER: For the what police
16 department?
10:18:30 17 THE WITNESS: Graham -- G-R-A-H-A-M.
10:18:30 18 THE COURT REPORTER: Oh, Graham. Sorry.
10:18:37 20 Q. Thank you.
10:18:38 21 Investigator Barbee, I want to turn your attention
22 to early January 2017. Around January 4th, 2017, was your
23 attention drawn to reports of harassing e-mails being
24 received by faculty and students?
10:18:58 25 A. Yes, sir.

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10:18:58 1 Q. Okay. And were you able to investigate these
2 particular allegations?
10:19:04 3 A. Yes, sir.
10:19:04 4 Q. And when you investigated this, what -- were you
5 able to determine who these e-mails were sent from?
10:19:13 6 A. Yes, sir.
10:19:13 7 Q. And how were you able to determine that?
10:19:16 8 A. We used a court order -- let me back up, I'm
9 sorry.
10:19:19 10 Q. Okay.
10:19:19 11 A. Some of the e-mails came from an e-mail address
12 associated with a website, antitranny.org, I believe. We
13 were able to get a court order to that website to determine
14 who the holder of it was. It was purchased through GoDaddy;
15 and with the Court order they were able to tell us who
16 registered the site, who was paying the bill for it.
10:19:41 17 Q. What did you learn through that court order?
10:19:43 18 A. It was registered and paid for by Napier Fuller
19 out of Wilmington.
10:19:48 20 Q. Okay. And when you reviewed this particular case,
21 did you find the e-mails had come from multiple addresses?
10:20:06 22 A. Yes, sir.
10:20:06 23 Q. And do you recall what those addresses were?
10:20:08 24 A. Give me one moment. One of them was
25 napier@alum.mit.edu. Another one was provocare@gmail.com.

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1 Another one was antitrannypac -- P-A-C -- @gmail.com and
2 antitranny.org.
10:20:34 3 Q. And did you review numerous e-mails that were sent
4 from these various e-mail addresses?
10:20:41 5 A. Yes, sir.
10:20:41 6 Q. Did these various e-mails have indicators that
7 they were sent from the same person?
10:20:47 8 A. Yes, sir.
10:20:47 9 Q. What were those indicators?
10:20:50 10 A. Some of them were signed by Mr. Fuller. Many of
11 them had a stamp.
10:20:55 12 MR. FULLER: I would object on -- on -- on lack of
13 foundation. You -- you can't say I signed something.
10:21:09 14 THE COURT: Sustained as to the characterization.
15 Rephrase that. What do you mean that -- by that?
10:21:17 16 THE WITNESS: They had a name at the bottom of the
17 e-mail.
10:21:20 18 THE COURT: And that name was Napier Fuller?
10:21:23 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It was a typed name; not
20 a signature. I'm sorry.
10:21:26 21 THE COURT: You don't have personal knowledge that
22 he typed it on there, right?
10:21:29 23 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I do not.

172
10:21:32 1 Q. Was (sic) there any other indicators that these
2 particular e-mails were sent from the same person?
10:21:37 3 A. Yes, sir. Several of them had a -- I don't know
4 if it's a banner or an icon or a picture or what you call
5 it, but it had a label on them that said antitranny.org
6 linking them back to a website -- the website from GoDaddy.
10:21:49 7 Q. Okay. And did you run Mr. Fuller's name through
8 any of your background check systems like CJLeads?
10:22:03 9 A. Yes, sir.
10:22:03 10 Q. Okay. And were you able to determine Mr. Fuller's
11 address through that particular background check?
10:22:11 12 A. Yes, sir.
10:22:12 13 Q. And did that address correspond to the address
14 that you received from the court order?
10:22:19 15 A. Yes, sir.
10:22:20 16 Q. Okay. And did that address come back to a
17 particular person?
10:22:26 18 A. Yes, sir.
10:22:27 19 Q. What person was that?
10:22:28 20 A. Mr. Fuller.
10:22:29 21 Q. Okay. And was that address on any of e-mails that
22 were being sent?
10:22:36 23 MR. FULLER: I would like to make an objection.
10:22:38 24 THE COURT: What's -- what are your grounds?
10:22:40 25 MR. FULLER: The court orders in question I

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1 believe were signed by a magistrate; and it's my
2 understanding, reading the superior court judge handbook,
3 that to be effective, they would need to be signed by a
4 superior court judge. And I would move they all be quashed
5 for being invalid.
10:22:59 6 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to
7 consider a matter of law outside your presence. I'm going
8 to ask you to retire to the jury room briefly. Remember all
9 the rules, and we will call you back in here as soon as we
10 are finished. Thank you. Go with the sheriff.
10:23:13 11 BAILIFF COLLINS: This way, folks.
10:23:14 12 THE COURT: It's a different jury room.
10:23:31 13 BAILIFF COLLINS: Gentlemen, this way. Sir, sir,
14 this way.
10:23:32 15 THE COURT: Yeah. They have been used to going to
16 the jury room back there. We are talking about this jury
17 room here from now on. Thank you.
10:23:54 18 (The jury left the courtroom at 10:23 a.m., and the
20 the jury.)
10:24:04 21 THE COURT: Okay. I think I understand your
22 objection; but, if you want to voice it again more
23 completely, go right ahead.
10:24:10 24 MR. FULLER: Yes. It's my understanding -- I'm --
25 being a bit of an academic and loving research, I, you know,

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1 would spend just hours researching every part of this case.
2 And I found to my understanding from reading all the case
3 law that a magistrate judge can issue a search warrant
4 related to electronic stuff, but it's only valid for the
5 physical county information obtained within that county.
6 And these were clearly done over state lines, and they would
7 have to have a superior court judge sign them to be valid.
10:24:41 9 MR. COURLANG: I would direct the Court's
10 attention to 15A-243, which basically --
10:24:46 11 THE COURT REPORTER: Which basically what?
10:24:46 12 MR. COURLANG: -- which states who may issue a
13 search warrant. It does give magistrates the power to issue
14 these particular warrants as well as district court judges.
15 And I would contend that magistrate does have the power for
16 this particular order with regards to Mister -- I'm sorry,
17 Investigator Barbee's search warrant of the particular -- I
18 guess it's the IP address of this particular website.
19 15A-243 -- I contend -- controls, which states that other
20 search warrants may be issued by a magistrate, and that is
21 what the law clearly states.
10:25:38 22 THE COURT: Let me take a look at it. The -- the
23 warrant itself, have you got it?
10:25:45 24 MR. FULLER: If -- if I could volunteer, a UNC
25 School of Government --

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10:25:50 1 THE COURT: I know what the law is.
10:25:51 3 THE COURT: Just let me see the search warrant.
10:25:54 4 MR. COURLANG: If I may approach, Your Honor?
10:27:03 8 THE COURT: All right. To obtain electronic
9 communications, a -- according to federal law, the warrant
10 has to be signed by a superior court judge. His motion is
11 allowed. The results of the search warrant are stricken.
10:27:17 12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm -- I'm confused.
13 I'm sorry.
10:27:19 14 MR. COURLANG: All right. If I may approach, Your
15 Honor?
10:27:22 16 THE COURT: All right. You can address your
17 confusion later. The search warrant is suppressed.
10:27:26 18 All right. Bring the jury back.
10:27:33 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm confused as to the
20 result -- not the search warrant.
10:27:37 21 THE COURT: You can't refer to what you seized
22 with the search warrant.
10:27:41 23 THE WITNESS: No, sir. That's not what's
24 confusing me. I'm perfectly clear on that.
10:27:44 25 THE COURT: Okay. Hang on.

176
10:27:47 1 Go ahead.
10:27:48 2 THE WITNESS: My understanding Mr. Courlang's
3 question was information from GoDaddy, which was not seized
4 pursuant to a search warrant.
10:27:56 5 THE COURT: Okay. If it wasn't seized pursuant to
6 a search warrant, then you are fine.
10:27:59 7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10:27:59 8 THE COURT: But what you got with that particular
9 search warrant is excluded from evidence.
10:28:04 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you, sir.
10:28:05 11 THE COURT: All right. Bring the jury back,
12 please.
10:28:22 13 (The jury came back into the courtroom at 10:28 a.m.,
15 of the jury.)
10:28:36 16 THE COURT: Okay. One juror needs a little extra
17 time, so we will wait until they are all back.
10:28:44 18 MR. FULLER: I --
10:28:44 19 THE COURT: We'll wait until they are all back.
20 Hang on.
10:29:04 22 (The last juror entered the courtroom at 10:29 a.m.)
10:29:12 23 THE COURT: All right. All members of the jury
24 are now present and in the courtroom, and the defendant's
25 objection is sustained.

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10:29:20 1 Ask your next question.
10:29:30 4 Q. Investigator Barbee, you testified that you ran
5 Mr. Fuller's information through one of your background
6 check systems such as CJLeads?
10:29:43 7 A. Yes, sir.
10:29:43 8 Q. And were you able to obtain Mr. Fuller's address
9 through that background check?
10:29:47 10 A. Yes, sir.
10:29:48 11 Q. And was that address on any of the e-mails that
12 were allegedly sent by Mr. Fuller?
10:29:55 13 A. Yes, sir.
10:29:55 14 Q. Okay. Was it the same address?
10:29:57 15 A. Yes, sir.
10:29:58 16 Q. Okay. Investigator Barbee, did you have any
17 contact with Dr. Zerden during your investigation?
10:30:09 18 A. Yes, sir.
10:30:10 19 Q. And can you explain the nature of that contact.
10:30:14 20 A. She had reported to me that she had received some
21 e-mails that were volumous (sic) in the number of e-mails,
22 and also the content that she related to me was a little
23 disturbing to her.
10:30:28 24 Q. And did these e-mails have indicators that they
25 were sent from a Mr. Fuller as well, if you recall?

178
10:30:37 1 A. Not at that time.
10:30:38 2 Q. Okay. I want to turn your attention to
3 January 18th. Did you speak with someone from the Orange
4 County DA's Office?
10:30:51 5 A. Yes, sir.
10:30:52 6 Q. Okay. And what did you do with regards to that?
10:30:57 7 A. I contacted Assistant District Attorney Nieman.
8 He is kind of the --
10:31:06 9 THE COURT: Sir, make sure you are answering the
10 question that he asked you. He asked you: What did you do
11 as a result of that conversation?
10:31:12 12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
10:31:13 13 Q. Yeah.
10:31:13 14 A. I sent Mr. Fuller a letter asking him to stop
15 contacting Dr. Zerden and explained that if he wanted to
16 pursue his public records request, the office at the
17 University that he would need to coordinate with.
10:31:30 18 MR. COURLANG: And, Your Honor, if I may approach
19 with what's been marked as State's Exhibit Number 1?
10:31:34 20 THE COURT: Have you shared that with Mr. Fuller?
10:31:36 21 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to provide Mr. Fuller a
22 copy.
10:31:38 23 THE COURT: Okay. After you do that, then, yes.
10:31:40 24 (State's Exhibit Number 1 was marked for
25 identification.)

179
10:31:46 1 MR. FULLER: I have no objection to this.
10:31:48 2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
10:31:49 3 MR. COURLANG: If I may approach the witness, Your
4 Honor?
10:31:51 7 (Mr. Courlang approached the witness.)
10:31:59 9 Q. Investigator Barbee, do you recognize what I
10 placed in your hand as State's Exhibit Number 1?
10:32:03 11 A. Yes, sir.
10:32:04 12 Q. And what is this, sir?
10:32:05 13 A. It is a cease and desist letter that I sent to
14 Mr. Fuller.
10:32:10 15 Q. And what date did you send this to Mr. Fuller?
10:32:16 16 A. Give me one moment.
10:32:25 17 January 25th.
10:32:26 18 Q. Okay.
10:32:27 19 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, at this time I would
20 ask that --
10:32:32 21 Q. Before I do that, January 25th of what year?
10:32:34 22 A. 2017.
10:32:34 23 Q. Okay.
10:32:35 24 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I ask that State's
25 Exhibit Number 1 be moved into evidence and ask to publish

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1 it to the jury as well.
10:32:41 2 THE COURT: Without objection, let it be received.
10:32:43 3 (State's Exhibit Number 1 was received into evidence.)
10:32:43 4 THE COURT: How do you propose to publish it?
10:32:45 5 MR. COURLANG: If Madam Clerk could turn on the
6 video screens, I could show the jury through an electronic
7 copy.
10:32:51 8 THE COURT: Okay. That's allowed.
10:32:53 9 (State's Exhibit Number 1 was published to the jury by
10 use of the AV system.)
10:32:59 11 THE COURT: Have you got an extra copy of these
12 things for me?
10:33:03 13 MR. COURLANG: I do, Your Honor.
10:33:03 14 THE COURT: Okay. I would like one.
10:33:05 15 MR. COURLANG: If I may approach?
10:33:06 16 THE COURT: Thank you.
10:33:11 18 THE COURT: I can't -- is it up on the screen
19 right now?
10:33:35 20 Mr. Fuller, is your screen over here working where
21 you can see what he is doing?
10:33:38 22 MR. FULLER: Yes, I can -- I can see it.
10:33:43 24 MR. COURLANG: I'm just going to make this a
25 little bit bigger.

181
10:34:05 2 Q. Investigator Barbee, how did you send this cease
3 and desist to Mr. Fuller?
10:34:10 4 A. Through e-mail and regular mail.
10:34:12 5 Q. Okay.
10:34:16 6 MR. FULLER: I -- I object to that. There is no
7 foundation that there was ever a -- mail sent or received
8 on -- and...
10:34:28 9 THE COURT: Overruled.
10:34:34 10 Q. Investigator Barbee, if you could, just read your
11 cease and desist into the record for the Court, slowly,
12 please.
10:34:41 13 A. [as read] Dear Mr. Fuller, the University of North
14 Carolina at Chapel Hill, UNCCH, Police Department
15 has obtained several unwanted electronic
16 communications you have sent to UNC-CH faculty
17 members and students in possible violation of
18 NCGS § 14-196.3(b)(2). This is notice that you
19 must immediately cease and desist from sending
20 such communications to UNC-CH faculty staff and/or
21 students. Public records request on this topic
22 may still be sent to the University at
23 publicrecordsatunc.edu.
10:35:22 24 However, any such further communications with
25 UNC-CH faculty, staff, and/or students may

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1 constitute a violation of NCGS § 14-196.3(b)(2),
2 known as the North Carolina cyberstalking statute,
3 and could result in criminal charges. For your
4 review, the aforementioned statute is enclosed.
5 Please note that you may continue to make use of
6 the University's facilities, such as the libraries
7 and athletic events, and express your concerns
8 through other communication channels such as the
9 U.S. Mail.
10:35:55 10 Should you have any questions or concerns about
11 the scope of this cease and desist or its
12 implementation, please do not hesitate to contact
13 me directly at ross_barbee@unc.edu or
14 (919)962-0564. Investigator Ross Barbee.
10:36:13 15 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
10:36:17 16 MR. COURLANG: Madam Clerk, if we could, turn off
17 the screens for the time being. Thank you.
10:36:27 19 Q. Investigator Barbee, after you sent this cease and
20 desist, did you receive a phone call from Mr. Fuller that
21 day?
10:36:32 22 A. Yes, sir.
10:36:33 23 Q. Okay. And what did Mr. Fuller say to you?
10:36:41 24 A. He stated that he felt he had a right to e-mail
25 the persons that he had. He stated that I could have him

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1 arrested if I desired and that he would vigorously defend
2 himself.
10:36:52 3 Q. Okay. And did you also receive a voice-mail from
4 Mr. Fuller?
10:37:00 5 A. Yes, sir.
10:37:01 6 Q. And what did Mr. Fuller say in that voice-mail?
10:37:04 7 A. He stated that I could not tell him not to contact
8 students and faculty as a whole, but I would need to name
9 specific individuals. He went on to say they were public
10 employees or they had spoken in the public domain and thus
11 did not have use of an anti-stalking statute.
10:37:21 12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
10:37:30 13 After you sent this cease and desist, did you
14 continue to receive plaints -- complaints that Mr. Fuller
15 was e-mailing members of the UNC student and faculty?
10:37:45 16 A. Yes, sir.
10:37:46 17 Q. Did you receive complaints from Dr. Zerden in
18 particular?
10:37:52 19 A. Yes, sir.
10:37:52 20 Q. Okay. After you continued to receive complaints,
21 what did you do next?
10:38:01 22 A. I spoke with the District Attorney's Office again
23 to see if -- I'm sorry --
10:38:06 24 Q. I'm sorry?
10:38:07 25 A. -- to see if they would support a charge at that

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1 point.
10:38:10 2 Q. And what did you do as a result of that meeting?
10:38:13 3 A. I obtained a warrant for Mr. Fuller.
10:38:19 4 Q. Have you had any other contact with Mr. Fuller
5 since taking out that warrant?
10:38:23 6 A. Yes, sir.
10:38:24 7 Q. What contacts have you had with Mr. Fuller?
10:38:26 8 MR. FULLER: I object to any evidence coming in
9 that's outside the scope of the dates of the charging
10 document.
10:38:39 11 THE COURT: That objection is overruled.
10:38:41 12 MR. COURLANG: Okay.
10:38:42 15 Q. What contacts did you receive from Mr. Fuller
16 after that?
10:38:45 17 A. E-mails and a few telephone calls.
10:38:48 18 Q. Approximately how many e-mails did you receive
19 from Mr. Fuller?
10:38:54 20 A. I'm not sure. I would -- I could estimate if you
21 would like. I haven't kept track of them.
10:38:58 22 Q. What is your estimate?
10:38:59 23 THE COURT: Well, I am going to give a limiting
24 instruction. Ladies and gentlemen, any evidence that you
25 hear of e-mails or communications that are outside the

185
1 charged dates are admissible only to the extent that they
2 show Mr. Fuller's intent. You may not consider them for any
3 other purpose.
10:39:20 4 All right. Go ahead.
10:39:21 5 MR. FULLER: I -- I object to -- to any number
6 that's not exact. He is welcome to look it up and give us
7 an exact number. I object to these generalizations.
10:39:32 8 THE COURT: All right. Your objection is
9 overruled.
10:39:34 10 Go ahead.
10:39:35 12 Q. Investigator Barbee, if you can give us an
13 approximation of how many e-mails Mr. Fuller sent to you?
10:39:41 14 A. Fifty.
10:39:47 15 Q. And in those e-mails, did he make reference to the
16 e-mails that he sent to Dr. Zerden?
10:39:52 17 A. Yes, sir.
10:39:53 18 Q. Did he make multiple references to the e-mails he
19 sent to Dr. Zerden?
10:39:58 20 A. Yes, sir.
10:40:00 21 Q. Do you recall what those references were?
10:40:04 22 A. Not independently, no, sir.
10:40:06 23 Q. Okay. And the e-mails that you received from
24 Mr. Fuller, did they contain --
10:40:19 25 MR. FULLER: Objection. Lack of foundation.

186
10:40:21 1 THE COURT: Hang on. He hasn't finished his
2 question yet.
10:40:25 3 What's your entire question?
10:40:26 4 Q. The e-mails that you received that you just
5 testified to, do they contain indicators that they were sent
6 by the same person who sent the e-mails to Dr. Zerden?
10:40:35 7 THE COURT: Objection overruled.
10:40:36 8 A. Yes, sir.
10:40:36 9 Q. What were those indicators?
10:40:38 10 A. The same e-mail address, some of them had a name
11 typed at the bottom that said "Napier Fuller."
10:40:46 12 Q. Okay.
10:40:54 13 MR. COURLANG: If I could just have one minute,
14 Your Honor.
10:41:12 19 Q. Did you have any phone conversations with
20 Mr. Fuller?
10:41:16 21 A. Yes, sir.
10:41:17 22 Q. And did Mr. Fuller make reference to the e-mails
23 he sent to Dr. Zerden through your phone conversations?
10:41:28 24 THE COURT: I am going to require you to put some
25 sort of timeframe on these conversations.

187
10:41:34 2 Q. After January two -- after January 27, 2017, but
3 prior to today?
10:41:45 4 A. I'm sorry. Give me the first part of the question
5 again. I'm sorry.
10:41:48 6 Q. After January 27th, 2017, but prior to today, did
7 you have phone conversations with Mr. Fuller?
10:41:54 8 A. Yes, sir.
10:41:54 9 Q. Did he reference the e-mails?
10:41:57 10 A. No, sir.
10:41:58 11 Q. Okay.
10:42:08 12 MR. COURLANG: Nothing further at this time.
10:42:09 13 THE COURT: Do you have questions you would like
14 to ask the investigator?
10:42:13 17 MR. FULLER: I have got a number of exhibits. Let
18 me first -- we are going to be at this for --
10:42:24 19 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't --
10:42:24 20 MR. FULLER: We are going to be at this a few
21 hours, so I'll probably just start --
10:42:26 22 THE COURT: Do you need some time to get
23 organized?
10:42:28 24 MR. FULLER: Oh, no, no, no, no. We are going to
25 start with the general background; and then we'll get into

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CROSS OF ROSS BARBEE BY MR. FULLER
1 the more technical aspects. But can I walk around a little
2 bit? I get a little confused.
10:42:37 3 THE COURT: The rules are that you are to examine
4 the witness from a seated position unless you need to
5 present him a document. If you do that, you have to ask
6 permission.
10:42:47 8 THE COURT: If I give you permission, then you are
9 to hand the witness the exhibit and then return back to
10 counsel table before you start asking questions.
10:42:12 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FULLER:
10:42:56 14 Q. Good afternoon, Detective Ross Barbee.
10:42:59 15 Could you tell us a little bit about what a
16 university police department -- what their mission is as
17 opposed to a regular police department like Durham or Chapel
18 Hill or -- or the City of Charlotte?
10:43:16 19 A. Enforce the laws of the State of North Carolina.
20 Our oath is the same as regular municipal police
21 departments.
10:43:23 22 Q. I have actually read the statute, and I got to --
10:43:27 23 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object if this is
24 testimony.
10:43:29 25 MR. FULLER: Well --

189
10:43:30 1 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, hang on. There is a rule
2 of evidence that you may not argue with the witness.
10:43:35 4 THE COURT: You can continue to --
10:43:37 5 MR. FULLER: (Interposing.) I'll --
10:43:37 6 THE COURT: Hang on. You can continue to ask him
7 questions, but they must be framed in the form of a
8 question. You may not testify during your
9 cross-examination. Go ahead.
10:43:44 10 BY MR. FULLER:
10:43:45 11 Q. Is it true or false that the statute law that
12 reflects university police departments that the university
13 police are responsible for carrying out the will of the
14 administration in addition to following the State law? Is
15 that a true or false statement?
10:44:08 16 A. I have never read the statute. I'm sorry.
10:44:11 17 THE COURT: Now, if you would like to hand him the
18 statute and have him read it and then answer your question,
19 that's fine; but that's your choice. Go ahead.
10:44:19 20 MR. FULLER: I don't have all the copies, and I
21 may handle that in a recess.
10:44:26 23 MR. FULLER: But on that point, I wanted to ask if
24 you were aware of the President of the University of North
25 Carolina -- do you know who that person is? Can you name

190
1 them?
10:44:38 2 A. Margaret Spellings.
10:44:40 3 Q. Is it true or false that she has given a
4 deposition in federal court --
10:44:50 5 MR. COURLANG: Objection to relevance, Your
6 Honor --
10:44:52 7 THE COURT: Hang on. Let him finish his question.
10:44:57 8 Q. -- regarding the policies of the University of
9 North Carolina and its constituent institutions about
10 transgender discrimination?
10:45:12 12 A. I don't know.
10:45:18 13 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, I get a little confused.
14 Does "overruled" mean I lose or win?
10:45:22 15 THE COURT: If he objects and I overrule, then you
16 get to ask your question. And you did. And his answer is:
17 I don't know.
10:45:27 18 Q. Okay. Would it be true or false that your CEO
19 or -- or the boss, Margaret Spellings -- is it true or false
20 that she has stated under oath in federal court that the
21 University, in accordance with its nondiscrimination policy,
22 will not prohibit transgender students from using the single
23 sex restrooms consistent with their gender identity in
24 opposition to state law? Is that a true or false statement?
10:46:10 25 A. I don't know.

191
10:46:10 1 THE COURT: And, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going
2 to caution you that in a court of law, the questions that
3 are propounded to the witness are not evidence; only the
4 witness's answers are evidence.
10:46:22 5 Go ahead.
10:46:33 6 Q. Are you familiar with a memorandum that Margaret
7 Spellings created entitled "Guidance to Compliance with
8 Public Facilities Privacy and Security Act" that was issued
9 on April 5th, 2016?
10:46:50 10 A. No, sir.
10:47:11 11 Q. Is it true or false that your employer, Margaret
12 Spellings, has stated under oath in a federal deposition in
13 the fifth month and the 27th day of the year 2016 that the
14 University has not threatened to enforce the House Bill 2
15 requirement and will not follow that law? Is that a true or
16 false statement?
10:47:42 17 A. I don't know.
10:47:44 18 Q. You are, as a law officer, someone that's taken an
19 oath; is that correct?
10:47:53 20 A. Yes, sir.
10:47:54 21 Q. Can I repeat that oath and you can tell me true or
22 false if I have repeated it correctly?
10:48:01 23 A. I don't remember it verbatim.
10:48:06 24 Q. If I -- if I state it, can you say it's true or
25 false? I -- I --

192
10:48:11 1 THE COURT: He is not going to know until you
2 state it.
10:48:14 3 MR. FULLER: Okay. Just a moment here. Just a
4 second.
10:48:37 5 BY MR. FULLER:
10:48:37 6 Q. Okay. Is the following -- true or false -- a
7 statement that you would have made under oath to obtain an
8 employment of trust within the State of North Carolina: I,
9 Ross Barbee, do solemnly and sincerely swear that I will
10 support the Constitution of the United States, that I will
11 be faithful and bear true allegiance to the State of North
12 Carolina and to the Constitutional powers and authorities
13 which are or may be established for the government thereof,
14 and that I will endeavor to support, maintain, and to defend
15 the Constitution of the said state, not inconsistent with
16 the Constitution of the United States to the best of my
17 knowledge and ability, so help me God?
10:49:33 18 A. I don't remember. It was 17 years ago.
10:49:36 19 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the United States
20 Constitution's First Amendment?
10:49:43 21 A. Slightly.
10:49:45 22 Q. Can you, in your best words, repeat it to us now?
10:49:52 23 A. No, sir.
10:49:54 24 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I need to
25 consider a matter of law outside your presence. I'm going

193
1 to ask you to retire to the jury room for just a minute.
10:50:01 2 Remember the rules. Don't be talking about the
3 case. Keep an open mind. And we will see you back here in
4 just a few minutes.
7 the jury.)
10:50:48 8 THE COURT: All right. The jury is absent.
10:50:50 9 Mr. Fuller, I ordinarily treat people who are
10 acting as their own lawyer just as if they are a lawyer and
11 know all the rules. I don't think it ought to give you any
12 advantage because you don't have a lawyer, but I fear that
13 you are about to make a mistake, and I would like to help
14 you not do that.
10:51:16 15 If I decide at the close of the State's evidence
16 to dismiss this case because what you did is protected by
17 the Constitution, then that's it. The jury won't have to
18 decide. But should I decide that the evidence is such that
19 what you did is not protected by the Constitution, then I'm
20 going to give it to the jury to decide what your intent
21 was.
10:51:47 22 The questions that you are asking and the
23 arguments that you want to make tend to be that I have made
24 a mistake as to what the Constitution requires in this
25 case. If you make that argument, that opens the door for

194
1 the State asking me to specifically instruct this jury that
2 I find that the Constitutional protections don't apply to
3 this behavior. So you are doing this at your peril. Do
4 you understand that?
10:52:22 5 MR. FULLER: Ummm --
10:52:23 6 THE COURT: That argument has already been -- that
7 argument is addressed to the Court, not to the jury.
10:52:28 8 MR. FULLER: I -- I don't understand what you just
9 said. It's -- it's -- my intention is to show that the
10 decision makers in this case -- we are going to get into all
11 these exhibits I have -- have no idea of what freedom of
12 speech is. Even though the statute refers to it, they never
13 read section E or referred to it until I started sending the
14 50 e-mails after Constitutional experts jump on my case.
10:52:56 15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, what I'm trying to tell
16 you is if you argue to this jury -- keep in mind, I haven't
17 decided whether as applied --
10:53:08 19 THE COURT: -- to you that this prosecution would
20 violate your Constitutional rights.
10:53:13 21 MR. FULLER: Yeah. In no way am I trying to
22 criticize you. I'm just --
10:53:16 23 THE COURT: No, no, no, that's not what I'm --
24 that's not where I'm headed. Where I'm headed is if the
25 jury gets this case, it's going to be because I have ruled

195
1 as a matter of law that what you did is not Constitutionally
2 protected. And you are not allowed to argue that it is in
3 the face of me ruling that it wasn't. And if you do, that
4 opens the door to me instructing the jury that if they find
5 that your intention in doing this was to annoy or harass,
6 that that's not Constitutionally protected; and that
7 completely undercuts your argument.
10:53:53 8 Now, if you want to argue that your intention was
9 to follow the law and that you didn't have any intention of
10 harassing or annoying, that's different. But if you are
11 going to try to argue to this jury that what you did was
12 Constitutionally protected outside of your intention -- and
13 I know it's a little bit hard to get this conceptually --
14 I'm -- I'm -- you are coming very, very close to opening
15 the door, which I ordinarily wouldn't do, to telling this
16 jury that I have rejected your Constitutional claims. And
17 I don't think you want me to do that.
10:54:32 18 MR. FULLER: Well, I love honesty and will speak
19 very clearly with what my intent is.
10:54:40 21 MR. FULLER: And it is a little confusing. I'm
22 looking at the federal litigation that -- all that derives
23 from the record. And so I want for everyone to be on the
24 stand as long as possible. And I'm just going to be
25 grilling them so they are going to look so idiotic --

196
10:54:56 1 THE COURT: All right. And I am not going to let
2 you do that. So if -- we will just be real honest about
3 that. The University's intention is not on trial here. The
4 police department's intention is not on trial here. What's
5 on trial is your intention.
10:55:08 6 So all this is only relevant to the extent that it
7 has some bearing on what your intention was. I'm not going
8 to let you put the University of North Carolina on trial.
9 That's not the proper place for that. You have sued them;
10 and you can do all that you want to in federal court, but
11 not here.
10:55:28 12 MR. FULLER: All right. Okay. I -- I understand
13 what you are --
10:55:31 15 MR. FULLER: I don't understand the specific
16 points, but I will try to be very focused --
10:55:36 18 MR. FULLER: -- and not just try to humiliate
19 people.
10:55:39 20 THE COURT: That would be a great idea because I'm
21 not going to let you attempt to do that. That's not what we
22 are here for.
10:55:45 23 All right. Bring the jury back, please.

197
1 of the jury.)
10:56:34 2 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we
3 have a process that we have to go through. It may seem
4 ridiculous to you that I brought you out here to tell you
5 we're getting to go on break, but that's just the way it is.
10:56:44 6 The jury is present in the courtroom.
10:56:46 7 We are going to take our morning recess at this
8 time. Remember all the rules. Don't be talking about the
9 case. Keep an open mind and be back in the jury room --
10:56:52 10 You want them back out there (indicating)? Okay.
10:56:54 11 Be back out in the hallway no later than 11:15.
12 Thank you very much. Everybody remain seated while the
13 jury leaves the courtroom.
16 the jury.)
10:57:48 17 THE COURT: All right. The jury is absent. We
18 are in recess until 11:15.
11:15:37 24 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that Mr. Fuller
25 is present, the State is present, the jury is absent.

198
1 Anything for either side before we call for the jury?
11:15:44 2 MR. COURLANG: Nothing from the State, Your Honor.
11:15:45 3 MR. FULLER: I'm ready to continue the cross.
11:15:47 4 THE COURT: Okay. Bring the jury in please.
7 of the jury.)
9 are present in the courtroom. Investigator Barbee is still
10 on the witness stand. He is still under oath, and he is now
11 on cross-examination.
11:16:58 12 Mr. Fuller.
11:17:01 13 MR. FULLER: Yes. I would like to introduce
14 Defendant's Exhibit 1. It comes from the discovery that was
15 released to me in the earlier arbitration.
11:17:13 16 THE COURT: Would you show it to him and see if he
17 has got any objection.
11:17:18 18 MR. FULLER: Do I walk up to him?
11:17:20 19 THE COURT: To him (indicating).
11:17:22 20 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 1 was marked for
21 identification.)
11:17:45 22 THE COURT: Will there be an objection?
11:17:47 23 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I would only object on
24 hearsay grounds. There are two e-mails -- a chain of
25 e-mails; one is from Investigator Barbee. I do not object

199
1 to that one. But there is a response from one James David,
2 who would -- we would object to that on hearsay grounds.
11:18:08 3 THE COURT: Let me take a look at it.
11:18:11 4 MR. FULLER: It's a response back to Mister --
11:18:13 5 THE COURT: Hang on.
11:18:34 7 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to rule whatever
8 hearsay is involved in this is necessary to put the
9 statement from Investigator Barbee into proper context, so
10 the objection is overruled.
11:18:48 12 MR. FULLER: And I get confused. "Overruled"
13 means I can't --
11:18:50 14 THE COURT: "Overruled" means you can.
11:18:53 15 MR. FULLER: Okay. All right. This is -- I just
16 wanted the jury to be aware we have a --
11:19:00 17 THE COURT: No, Mr. Fuller, I need to you sit down
18 if you are going to ask questions.
11:19:04 19 MR. FULLER: Well, I was going to try to -- that's
20 all right.
11:19:05 21 THE COURT: If you want to show them the exhibit,
22 you have to ask me permission to do that first.
11:19:10 23 MR. FULLER: Your Honor -- or I will give that a
24 minute.

200
11:19:15 2 Q. Detective Barbee, this item comes from the
3 discovery that was released in the arbitration. It's a
4 two-page -- it's front and reverse. Do you recognize this
5 e-mail that -- that says -- it's signed, "My apologies.
6 Ross."
11:19:37 7 Does that -- do you recognize that as being one
8 that you wrote?
11:19:41 9 A. Yes, sir.
11:19:44 10 Q. Is that Kermit The Frog that's below it?
11:19:48 11 A. Yes, sir.
11:19:50 12 Q. Is that a standard police procedure to use Kermit
13 the Frog in signed e-mails?
11:19:56 14 A. I do not use that.
11:19:59 15 Q. Okay. On the -- on the other surface, the first
16 side, there is an e-mail from a David James to a Barbee Ross
17 Steven and e-mail address. Is that your e-mail address,
18 sir?
11:20:15 19 A. Yes, sir.
11:20:17 20 Q. Do you agree that this was an e-mail from David
21 James to you?
11:20:22 22 A. Yes. His name is -- yes, sir. His name is James
23 David. Our e-mail does last name, then first.
11:20:28 24 Q. And is he a police officer as well?
11:20:30 25 A. Yes, sir.

201
11:20:31 1 Q. And can you please read his statement to you.
11:20:36 2 THE COURT: Wait a minute.
11:20:37 4 THE COURT: Have you -- have you moved this into
5 evidence?
11:20:40 6 MR. FULLER: I thought we just did that by him
7 agreeing to -- he agreed to do it.
11:20:45 8 THE COURT: I'm going to take it that you are
9 moving it into evidence. Over the defendant's (sic)
10 objection, the objection is overruled. The e-mail is
11 received into evidence; and now, yes, he may read it to the
12 jury.
11:20:56 13 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 1 was received into
14 evidence.)
11:21:00 15 MR. FULLER: I have another copy. Do you want one
16 or...
11:21:02 17 THE COURT: I don't need one now, but I have seen
18 it. Thank you.
11:21:04 19 BY MR. FULLER:
11:21:04 20 Q. Is it true that the other police officer says:
11:21:07 21 [as read] It's actually quite entertaining -- dot
22 dot dot -- with a picture of Kermit the Frog.
11:21:14 23 And this appears -- the subject is re semicolon
24 Napier Fuller?
11:21:21 25 A. Yes, sir.

202
11:21:23 1 Q. So it would appear from my reading of this that
2 some people thought it was pretty funny or at least this
3 case was kind of --
11:21:34 4 THE COURT: Sir, I need you to ask him questions.
11:21:36 6 Q. Would a reasonable person regard this e-mail as
7 being light in nature and humorous?
11:21:44 8 MR. COURLANG: I object to that, Your Honor.
11:21:45 9 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of the
10 question.
11:21:51 11 MR. FULLER: Does that mean I have to repeat the
12 question?
11:21:53 13 THE COURT: That means that you need to ask
14 another question or ask that one differently.
11:21:59 16 BY MR. FULLER:
11:21:59 17 Q. When the ADA was asking you questions, you used a
18 phrase "a little disturbing" regarding some of the content
19 of alleged communications from Napier Fuller. Is that a
20 true statement?
11:22:16 21 THE COURT: Is it at true statement that he said
22 it or is it a true statement that they are a little
23 disturbing? Which -- what are you asking him?
11:22:23 24 Q. Did Detective Ross Barbee, not more than 30
25 minutes ago, say that the communications were, quote, a

203
1 little disturbing from Mr. Fuller?
11:22:34 2 A. To me or to Dr. Zerden? I'm not -- my statement
3 was when -- was in connection with why Dr. Zerden had came
4 to me regarding the e-mails.
11:22:45 5 Q. Okay. So -- so -- so it's more of a hearsay thing
6 that she thought it was a little disturbing. Would that be
7 correct?
11:22:52 8 A. Yes, sir.
11:22:53 9 THE COURT: Hang on a second. I will give a
10 limiting instruction on that. Ladies and gentlemen, you are
11 only to consider any statements that this witness says that
12 Ms. Zerden made to the extent that you find they corroborate
13 her testimony if she testifies later. If she doesn't
14 testify later, that evidence will be stricken from the
15 record.
11:23:15 17 MR. FULLER: I -- can I approach the jury to show
18 them this Kermit the Frog? I just think it's kind of silly.
11:23:19 19 THE COURT: You may hand it to the sheriff, and he
20 can publish it to the jury.
11:23:23 21 Ladies and gentlemen, you are about to be shown
22 Defendant's Exhibit Number 1, which is in evidence. You
23 may review it carefully, individually, and without comment.
24 Thank you very much.
11:23:32 25 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 1 was published to the jury

204
1 by passing physically through the jury box.)
11:23:55 2 MR. FULLER: I would like to introduce --
11:23:57 3 THE COURT: Sir, it's probably better for you to
4 wait for them to finish so they can be paying attention to
5 what you do next.
11:24:11 6 MR. FULLER: Has everybody seen that? Okay. We
7 are still waiting.
11:24:14 8 THE COURT: I will let you know.
11:25:08 10 THE COURT: All right. Let the record reflect
11 that the publication of Defendant's Exhibit Number 1 is
12 complete.
11:25:11 13 You may proceed.
11:25:14 14 MR. FULLER: I'd like to introduce Defendant's
15 Exhibit Number 3 that also originates from the discovery
16 released --
11:25:20 17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, when you are
18 talking about exhibits that aren't in evidence yet, I'm
19 going to ask you not to give any more than a shorthand
20 version of what it is because I don't know whether I'm going
21 to let the jury see it or not. You need to let the State
22 see it first. Let's see if he has any objection. Then we
23 will go from there.
25 identification.)

205
11:26:04 1 (Pause in proceedings while Mr. Courlang reviewed the
2 document.)
11:26:24 3 MR. COURLANG: I have no objection as long as it's
4 taken as a whole, Your Honor.
11:26:28 5 THE COURT: Okay. Go right ahead.
11:26:31 6 MR. FULLER: Okay. I'm going to give this and
7 ask -- shall I give the Court one?
11:26:40 9 (Mr. Fuller approached the bench.)
11:26:42 10 BY MR. FULLER:
11:26:44 11 Q. Detective Barbee, do you recognize this e-mail
12 that -- that appears to be from you written on January 25th,
13 2017, at 2:15 p.m.?
11:26:56 14 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that he is
15 referring to Defendant's Exhibit Number 3.
11:27:01 16 A. Give me one second, please.
11:27:22 18 A. Okay.
11:27:23 19 Q. Can -- can you please read to us the --
11:27:29 20 THE COURT: Hang on. Are you moving this into
21 evidence?
11:27:33 22 MR. FULLER: Yes. I forget to say that. Yes, I
23 want to move Exhibit Number 3 into evidence.
11:27:38 24 THE COURT: Without objection, let it be received.

206
1 evidence.)
11:27:41 2 THE COURT: Now you can ask him questions about
3 it.
11:27:45 6 Q. Mr. Barbee -- or Detective Barbee, can you please
7 tell us the subject -- read us out the subject, the date,
8 and to who the e-mail is and then the short comments that
9 you made.
11:28:03 10 A. Let's see. It is from me. Subject is:
11:28:05 11 [as read] Barbee, dot R, IMP, ticket
12 number 3389696 to B. Penders. Incident,
13 management, investigative assistance on
14 January 25th, 2017, at 2:15 p.m.
11:28:26 15 It says:
11:28:27 16 [as read] Sorry. Here are two with the recipient
17 list. It looks like they are coming from
18 antitranny.org. Thanks, Ross.
11:28:36 19 Q. Yeah. So I want to ask you about that last
20 sentence. You say it looks like they are coming from
21 antitranny.org, but it doesn't seem that at that point you
22 were sure in the language you used. Would it be correct or
23 incorrect to say at the date you wrote that, you were not
24 certain where the e-mails came from?
11:29:00 25 A. Give me one minute, please.

207
11:29:39 2 A. Okay. At that particular day, I was not certain.
11:29:43 3 Q. Okay. The ADA requested that we consider this --
4 this exchange in -- in its full. And I was wondering if you
5 could read to us -- there is another e-mail attached I guess
6 it's responding to. If you could read from the phrase
7 "problem description" and read us to the end to where it
8 says "thank you." And -- and tell us who wrote that or who
9 appears to have written that.
11:30:13 10 A. It appears to be -- it appears to be written by
11 me. It says:
11:30:31 12 [as read] problem description. I am
13 investigating a cyberstalking case where repeated
14 e-mails are being sent to faculty and students.
15 One faculty member, Laurie Selz-Campbell,
16 lauriesc@unc.edu, is receiving e-mails; but they
17 are not addressed to her. I attached one with a
18 recipient list. Another faculty member, Lisa
19 Zerden, lzerden@email.unc.edu is receiving them
20 also, but they are addressed to
21 diesel_dykes@unc.edu.
11:31:11 22 Can you determine who the diesel_dykes e-mail is
23 registered to and where both of them are receiving
24 the e-mails from? Please let me know if you need
25 anything. My office line, if you need it, is

208
1 (919)962-0564. Thank you.
11:31:30 2 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, the rules require people
3 to question witnesses from a seated position.
11:31:38 4 MR. FULLER: Oh, sorry.
11:31:39 5 Q. So I'm just trying to understand this, and I just
6 wanted to ask: Can you explain in plain English -- I
7 believe today our witness's name is a Mrs. Zerden, but then
8 who are these other people? I mean, you have -- just a lay
9 of the land here. I'm trying to understand the case.
11:31:58 10 A. Yes, sir. There were several names I had gotten
11 from our Information Technology Services Division of where
12 e-mails had been sent to. They were not all solely
13 addressed to Dr. Zerden. There were some students. There
14 were some other faculty, other members of the University.
11:32:15 15 Q. Are -- are you aware these -- these other people,
16 have they also brought legal claims against the defendant,
17 me?
11:32:24 18 A. In -- themselves?
11:32:26 19 Q. Yes.
11:32:27 20 A. No, sir.
11:32:32 21 Q. It -- but as the investigator, is it the same set
22 of e-mails? I'm just a little confused. Is it the same set
23 of e-mails going to all these different people or is it
24 different?
11:32:44 25 A. I'm -- I'm --

209
11:32:46 1 Q. Is -- these other people referred to, are they --
2 are they getting the same e-mails, like an e-mail chain? Or
3 is it all separate e-mails? Like this person Laura
4 Selz-Campbell and you -- and have -- you referenced faculty
5 and students. It sounds like there's a lot of people. My
6 question is: Are they all receiving the same content or is
7 it all different?
11:33:10 8 A. There were several different types of e-mails that
9 had the same content.
11:33:16 10 Q. Uh-huh.
11:33:17 11 A. These e-mails were received by different people at
12 different times. I'm not sure if I have adequately answered
13 the question. I'm sorry.
11:33:26 14 Q. Right. And just to be clear, out of all of that
15 group, we here have a criminal complaint based on a -- how
16 many people? How many of them made criminal complaints?
11:33:39 17 A. Directly to me?
11:33:42 18 Q. Yes. Sure.
11:33:44 19 A. I'm not sure of the total number, sir. I received
20 e-mails from people stating they had received e-mails. I
21 did not pursue a charge from each individual person.
11:34:01 22 Q. I guess my question is -- I'm just confused in
23 reading this, these e-mails. I mean, what is this thing
24 diesel dykes@unc? And it says someone -- it's a phrase --
11:34:15 25 [as read] Can you determine who the diesel dykes

210
1 e-mail is registered to and where both of them are
2 receiving the e-mails from? Please let me know
3 anything.
11:34:25 4 And this is -- appears to be written on the day or
5 after you had sent a -- a cease and desist. So it just
6 seems like it's -- I find it confusing in -- I don't
7 understand these e-mails. I don't understand. We haven't
8 put any of them into evidence yet. Do we have any e-mails
9 to talk about?
11:34:48 10 A. Yes.
11:34:49 11 Q. Do we?
11:34:50 12 MR. FULLER: I mean, Judge, I don't think we have
13 anything --
11:34:52 14 MR. COURLANG: Objection, Your Honor;
15 argumentative.
11:35:00 16 THE COURT: Sustained. Move on to something else.
11:35:07 17 MR. FULLER: A point of clarification from the
18 Judge: I would like to ask questions about the body of
19 e-mails, but it's my understanding they have not been
20 admitted into evidence, so I'm a little confused.
11:35:19 21 THE COURT: If you want to ask about them, you can
22 ask about them.
11:35:23 23 BY MR. FULLER:
11:35:23 24 Q. Okay. Detective Barbee, we are here to adjudicate
25 a criminal case so where are these e-mails that are so

211
1 offensive, that are criminal? Can we see them? Let's see
2 them.
11:35:35 3 A. I provided them to the District Attorney's Office,
4 and I believe they were also sent to you under discovery.
11:35:40 5 Q. But they have not been admitted into evidence in
6 this criminal proceeding so we can't discuss them until they
7 are admitted into evidence.
11:35:47 8 THE COURT: That's not true. You can ask him
9 anything you want to about those e-mails. That's completely
10 up to you. The State hasn't rested its case yet. That's a
11 strategy choice that you have to make.
11:36:00 12 MR. FULLER: Okay. In other words, I can't
13 discuss the e-mails because they have not come into evidence
14 so we will discuss some other issues.
11:36:08 15 THE COURT: Wait a minute. That's not what I
16 said. I said that you can. That's your choice.
11:36:14 17 MR. FULLER: Okay. Anyway, I'm a little confused.
11:36:16 18 BY MR. FULLER:
11:36:16 19 Q. But I wanted to -- I printed out some -- some
20 documents. As I mentioned, I have a graduate degree in
21 computer science, working in the MIT media lab and love
22 communication, so I wanted to ask you a little bit -- I
23 spent a fair amount of time researching chain of custody in
24 digital forensics. This whole trial is about e-mails so we
25 have got to be very clear in what was sent. And so I wanted

212
1 to ask you some questions about your expertise in
2 establishing digital evidence and chain of custody.
11:36:46 3 So to start with, I wanted to ask you, can you
4 just tell us informally what your expertise is in terms of
5 investigating and preserving and assessing digital evidence?
6 Could you just talk about that.
11:37:02 7 A. Generally, it depends on the case. Just as an
8 overview, when I get a case like this, I will either pull
9 the header from the e-mail, which tells where it came from,
10 or I'll find an IP address that basically provides where the
11 e-mail came from. I will then either get court orders or
12 subpoenas to Time Warner or AOL or whoever manages that
13 information. I will send those orders off. Generally,
14 they'll send me back information that says, you know, it was
15 received from this person, this address, that type of thing.
11:37:36 16 Q. That's a great point you bring up. Did we not
17 just quash all this search warrants -- and I have a bunch of
18 them?
11:37:43 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are not allowed to
20 bring up in front of the jury things that I discussed
21 outside their presence. That question is not allowed.
11:37:53 23 Q. Okay. I -- I will rephrase that here. I'm
24 looking at the National Institute of Justice, some
25 guidelines. I just wanted to ask you: Would you agree it's

213
1 true or false that digital evidence by its nature is fragile
2 and can be altered, damaged, or destroyed by improper
3 handling and examination? Would you agree that that is a
4 true or false statement?
11:38:19 5 A. I would agree that's true.
11:38:20 6 Q. Would you agree -- true or false -- that
7 examination is best conducted on a copy of the original
8 digital evidence. The original digital evidence should be
9 acquired in a manner that protects and preserves the
10 integrity of the original. Would you agree that's true or
11 false?
11:38:42 12 A. I can't adequately answer that question in a true
13 or false format.
11:38:47 14 Q. Okay. Or -- or yes or no: Do we have any
15 original evidence that's been entered at this point by the
16 State?
11:38:56 17 A. No.
11:38:56 18 Q. Okay. I wanted to ask you: Do you consider UNC
19 Chapel Hill Police Department to be adequately -- adequately
20 prepared to handle and investigate digital evidence; yes or
21 no?
11:39:11 22 A. Yes.
11:39:11 23 Q. Okay. I'm going to list five steps regarding the
24 computer forensic examination process. And I just wanted
25 you to then, in your own words, kind of expound --

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11:39:35 1 THE COURT: All right. Before you do that,
2 Detective, did you do a computer forensic examination in
3 this case?
11:39:42 4 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
11:39:43 5 THE COURT: Objection sustained.
11:39:50 8 Q. Could -- I will just be a little more general
9 then.
11:39:53 10 Can you tell us about the process, the process or
11 any manuals that -- that would govern how you as a detective
12 receive, process, document, and assess the validity of
13 authorship for digital evidence such as e-mails? Can you
14 tell us about how that process would be handled by --
11:40:21 17 A. I don't have any manuals relating to that. I
18 generally seek input from our -- our detective that's
19 involved with cyber crimes.
11:40:30 20 Q. Did you seek his input in this case?
11:40:33 21 A. Yes, sir.
11:40:33 22 Q. And what is his name?
11:40:34 23 A. Ray Oliver.
11:40:37 24 Q. Okay. And can you tell us a little bit about --
25 well, it would be hearsay because -- but I -- I will allow

215
1 it. Can you just tell us a little bit about what Ray did in
2 this case?
11:40:51 3 A. He just assisted me with making sure that the
4 e-mail headers were correct, provided general guidance on
5 the verbiage for court orders.
11:41:01 6 Q. Okay. And assisting -- that's an interesting
7 phrase you used -- "assisting" headers. Maybe we will get
8 back to that when we have some evidence to discuss. At this
9 point, we do not.
11:41:21 10 But this fellow Ray, if you had to give a
11 percentage, about how much of the evidence assessment was
12 your responsibility and how much was Ray's? Like, was it
13 50/50, 75/25?
11:41:33 14 A. I'm not sure what you are --
11:41:36 15 Q. I'm trying to determine whether we should subpoena
16 him instead of you, because you are the only one here but,
17 like, if you just did 5 percent --
11:41:44 18 A. Are you asking me if -- for a percentage of
19 e-mails that I got his input on?
11:41:50 20 Q. Let me be clear. I'm asking you his contribution
21 to the evidence assessment and processing was, like, roughly
22 how much?
11:42:00 23 THE COURT: Hang -- hang on -- hang on a minute.
24 Was there any evidence assessment or processing done in this
25 case?

216
11:42:06 1 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
11:42:06 2 THE COURT: All right. Move on.
11:42:12 4 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the UNC Chapel Hill's
5 agreement of policing geographically? Can you tell us about
6 where you are allowed to arrest people physically
7 geographically. Where are those boundaries?
11:42:32 8 A. Any property that the University owns, rents, or
9 leases, anywhere within the State of North Carolina.
11:42:41 10 Q. Does that apply to the University of North
11 Carolina at Greensboro? Would you have --
11:42:46 12 A. I'm not certain. I have heard conflicting
13 information. I would not want to -- I would not want to
14 wager my -- I don't know.
11:42:55 15 Q. Okay. Public right-of-ways, there are streets
16 that are owned by the State of North Carolina. They would
17 be running through the campus. If someone was physically on
18 those streets, like, let's say we had someone that was maybe
19 drinking some alcohol underage, would the university police
20 department have the ability in that geography, if they are
21 on State property and not -- well, actually, it's all State
22 property, but it's not University. Are you allowed to go in
23 public streets?
11:43:25 24 A. If they are running through campus.
11:43:27 25 Q. Okay. So the boundary of the jurisdiction is

217
1 physical, is it -- that's correct?
11:43:35 2 A. Yes, sir.
11:43:36 3 Q. Okay. So explain to me a little bit -- was the
4 defendant -- that is myself -- was -- was this person
5 regarded as being on the University physically?
11:43:50 6 A. At which time, sir?
11:43:53 7 Q. At the time of each e-mail that I assume will get
8 into evidence later. But my -- my question to you is: How
9 in the world do you have jurisdiction over this case?
11:44:03 10 A. Okay. My understanding of the statute is
11 jurisdiction falls in where the e-mail was sent from, where
12 it was received, or where it was read. In our case, it was
13 received by University servers on University property.
11:44:20 14 Q. Explain that concept of reception. How does that
15 work? What does it mean to be "received"?
11:44:30 16 A. When an e-mail comes in, when it's -- when it's
17 housed on the server.
11:44:37 18 Q. Or let me ask another question. What is an
19 e-mail?
11:44:41 20 A. Electronic communication.
11:44:42 21 Q. So a text is an e-mail or a phone call that's --
22 that's in digital format? In fact, almost all mobile
23 phones -- in fact, all of them now in this country are
24 digital transmissions.
11:44:55 25 A. Are you asking for a legal definition or my

218
1 personal definition?
11:44:58 2 Q. I'm asking for -- I suppose the legal
3 definition -- I think -- because you are the guy that's in
4 charge of the law.
11:45:05 5 A. I don't know the legal definition.
11:45:07 6 Q. Okay. What does it mean -- in your opinion, you
7 said sent -- I'm trying to understand an e-mail -- sent,
8 received, and read. I just don't understand the difference
9 between received and read.
11:45:23 10 A. Or read. It's any of the three; where it's sent
11 from, where it's received at, or where it is read.
11:45:29 12 Q. Okay.
11:45:30 13 A. It's not -- it's not all three; it's any one of
14 the three.
11:45:32 15 Q. Right. And you are talking about it's received at
16 UNC, so where physically are these electronic wires coming
17 and moving this information? Do you know where
18 physically -- I'm trying to establish the jurisdictional
19 aspects of this case. So can you give us, like, a latitude,
20 longitude or an address of where that information actually
21 would be residing?
11:45:54 22 A. People's computers in their office.
11:45:57 23 Q. Ummm. But this is a criminal prosecution. I
24 would imagine that you would actually have -- you would
25 actually know where specifically -- I'm not talking about in

219
1 general; I'm talking specifically. I'm getting ready to be
2 sentenced to 60 days in jail here so I'm asking you: Where
3 was that information received physically?
11:46:16 4 A. In Dr. Zerden's office.
11:46:20 5 Q. At what time?
11:46:22 6 A. I don't know, sir.
11:46:32 7 Q. Ummm. Let me see here. From what I have kind of
8 seen in some of this discovery stuff, it seems that a lot of
9 e-mails have been forwarded around; and there seems to be
10 some confusion. Can you explain to me just a little bit
11 about how you would process things that have been forwarded
12 around in chains -- or let me be -- let me rephrase that.
11:47:02 13 Does it make the investigation of digital crimes
14 more complex when messages have been forwarded from numerous
15 people? Does that make it more or less complex to
16 investigate?
11:47:19 17 A. It really doesn't have any bearing. We just pull
18 the e-mail header, and it tells us where it was sent from or
19 we pull the IP address, and it tells us where it was sent
20 from.
11:47:29 21 Q. Okay. But -- but in a -- in a forwarded e-mail,
22 you would have numerous IP addresses because you essentially
23 have -- it's like wearing an undershirt. You would have two
24 e-mails in one. So in that case, which IP address would you
25 be referring to?

220
11:47:44 1 A. When I get the complaint, I go to the person that
2 received the original e-mail; and I ask them to pull the
3 header from it or I pull the header from it. And I explain
4 to them that a forwarded copy of the e-mail will not work
5 for what we need in law enforcement as it would only relay
6 back to the person that forwarded it.
11:48:02 7 Q. That's a great point, talking about headers. As I
8 say, I have done a whole lot of work in computer science.
9 Can you show us some headers. And can we actually talk --
10 and we've actually got some people here from Duke University
11 who can actually get in and look at the headers of these
12 things.
11:48:18 13 A. I don't have the headers with me.
11:48:20 14 Q. I got to ask: What in the world is going on with
15 this trial? I mean, there is no evidence.
11:48:25 16 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, the State hasn't rested
17 yet.
11:48:30 18 MR. FULLER: Okay. I guess we'll have to let him
19 go and then recall him once there is any evidence. You
20 know, I just -- I don't know what to do.
11:48:35 21 THE COURT: You are free -- you are free to do
22 that.
11:48:37 23 Will there be redirect examination?
11:48:39 24 MR. COURLANG: No, Your Honor.
11:48:40 25 THE COURT: All right. Detective Barbee, you

221
DIRECT OF MARK SHIVER BY MR. COURLANG
1 are -- you may step down. You are still under subpoena.
11:48:49 4 (The witness left the witness stand.)
11:49:00 5 THE COURT: Call your -- call your next witness.
11:49:02 6 MR. COURLANG: The State would call Mark Shiver.
11:49:24 7 THE COURT: Sir, you do need any assistance
8 getting up here? Are you okay?
11:49:27 9 THE WITNESS: I will let you know once I get
10 there.
11:49:29 11 THE COURT: All right. Sheriff, would you make
12 sure he is all right getting up those stairs?
11:49:34 13 MARK SHIVER
11:49:56 17 THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed.
11:49:59 20 Q. Good morning, Mr. Shiver.
11:50:02 21 A. Good morning.
11:50:03 22 Q. Could you please state your name and spell your
23 name for the Court.
11:50:06 24 A. Mark Shiver. Last name is spelled S-H-I-V-E-R.
11:50:14 25 THE COURT: Did you say "B" as in boy or "V" as in

222
1 victor?
11:50:17 2 THE WITNESS: "V" as in victor.
11:50:20 3 THE COURT: All right. Fine. Thank you.
11:50:20 5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Shiver. Are you employed at the
6 moment?
11:50:23 7 A. Yes, sir.
11:50:24 8 Q. And how you are employed, sir?
11:50:24 9 A. I work for the North Carolina General Assembly.
11:50:27 10 Q. And, Mr. Shiver, I want to turn your attention to
11 April 2017. Were you the host of a podcast at this time?
11:50:37 12 A. Yes.
11:50:38 13 Q. And on your -- what was the name of your podcast?
11:50:41 14 A. "What Matters in North Carolina."
11:50:43 15 Q. Okay. And on your podcast, did you interview
16 Napier Fuller?
11:50:48 17 MR. FULLER: I'm going to object. We have had a
18 lot of news media covering this case, and I don't think it's
19 appropriate to have -- to basically introduce as evidence
20 the news media of the case.
11:51:01 21 THE COURT: I take it that you are trying to
22 introduce the defendant's statement?
11:51:06 23 MR. COURLANG: That is correct, Your Honor.
11:51:07 24 THE COURT: All right. Your objection is
25 overruled.

223
11:51:11 2 Q. Mr. Shiver --
11:51:12 3 THE COURT: We are not going to get into any kind
4 of editorial content or anything like that, but you can
5 introduce his statement into evidence. Go ahead.
11:51:20 6 Q. Mr. Shiver, on your podcast titled "What Matters
7 Most," (sic) did you interview Napier Fuller on April 2017?
11:51:28 8 A. Yeah. It was "What Matters in North Carolina."
9 And yes.
11:51:31 10 Q. Sorry, I apologize.
11:51:31 11 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, if I could approach
12 with what's marked State's Exhibit Number 2?
14 identification.)
11:51:45 15 THE COURT: Yes. If you'd just tell Mr. Fuller
16 what that is, please.
11:51:52 17 MR. COURLANG: Well, this is a audio recording of
18 "What Matters in North Carolina," podcast in which
19 Mr. Shiver was the host and you were the guest.
11:51:59 20 MR. FULLER: I would object. I have been on his
21 show several times. And I'm -- I -- I don't -- I would
22 object -- I don't remember what this thing was. And if we
23 are going to listen to stuff, I think we should listen to
24 all of it.
11:52:11 25 THE COURT: You are free to get into that when

224
1 it's your turn. All right?
11:52:16 2 Overruled.
11:52:17 3 MR. COURLANG: If I may approach the witness, Your
4 Honor.
11:52:18 7 (Mr. Courlang approached the witness.).
11:52:33 9 Q. Mr. Shiver, do you recognize what's been marked as
10 State's Exhibit Number 2?
11:52:36 11 A. Yes.
11:52:36 12 Q. Yes? And are your initials on that particular
13 disc?
11:52:40 14 A. Yes.
11:52:41 15 Q. Did you have a chance to listen to what was on
16 that disc earlier today?
11:52:46 17 A. The very beginning of it only.
11:52:48 18 Q. Yeah. And was it the beginning of the podcast --
11:52:52 19 A. Yes.
11:52:52 20 Q. -- in which you hosted Mr. Fuller was the guest?
11:52:56 21 A. Yes.
11:52:56 22 Q. Yes?
11:52:57 23 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, at this time the State
24 would like to enter State's Exhibit Number 2 into evidence
25 and to play it for the jury.

225
11:53:03 1 THE COURT: All right. Over the defendant's
2 objection, let it be received. How long is it?
11:53:06 4 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, it is approximately 40
5 minutes.
11:53:12 6 MR. FULLER: I would object to news media that's
7 being introduced when I am not under oath into a criminal
8 proceeding -- I think that's just insane; that the State can
9 make its evidence in normal ways. And this is -- this --
10 this is not even from the relevant timeframe of the -- the
11 e-mails.
11:53:33 12 THE COURT: All right. Your objection is noted
13 for the record, and it's overruled. We are going to play
14 it, and then we will take our recess. All right. Go ahead.
11:53:42 16 If I may approach Mr. Shiver?
11:53:44 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Your Honor, are they just
20 going to play it through and not talk?
11:53:59 21 THE COURT: That's a good question. Are you --
22 what I would prefer that you do is just to publish this
23 without any narration; right? You are just going to let
24 them hear it? Or do you intend to ask him questions about
25 it as it plays?

226
11:54:11 1 MR. COURLANG: I intend to play it in full without
2 any narration.
11:54:15 4 MR. COURLANG: And then possibly ask some
5 follow-up questions after it's over.
11:54:17 6 THE COURT: All right. Great. Ladies and
7 gentlemen, you are about to listen to State's Exhibit
8 Number 2. Listen carefully, individually, and without
9 comment, but feel free to take notes if you wish.
11:54:30 10 MR. FULLER: What is State's Exhibit Number 1?
11:54:33 11 THE COURT: Sir, they don't have to introduce
12 exhibits in any particular order.
11:54:37 13 MR. FULLER: I was just getting nervous. Okay.
11:54:39 14 THE COURT: Well, it is actually in evidence. The
15 cease and desist letter is State's Exhibit Number 1.
11:54:44 16 MR. FULLER: Oh, okay.
11:54:46 18 MR. COURLANG: Madam Clerk, are the speakers on
19 for my computer?
11:54:50 20 THE COURT: I need everybody to be quiet while
21 this is playing.
11:54:54 22 Mr. Fuller, don't talk while this is playing.
24 use of the AV system.)
12:09:41 25 MR. COURLANG: If the record could reflect that

227
1 the audio recording, State's Exhibit Number 2, has been
2 stopped at 14 minutes and 43 seconds. And this record will
3 reflect the State will begin the recording at 17 minutes and
4 42 seconds.
12:10:01 5 MR. FULLER: I object. We should hear it in its
6 continuance. Why are we cutting out?
12:10:06 7 THE COURT: Approach the bench.
9 the hearing of the jury beginning at 12:10 p.m.)
12:10:22 10 THE COURT: The objection is sustained. We will
11 here it in its entirety.
12:10:32 12 MR. COURLANG: The record will reflect that the
13 audio recording, State's Exhibit Number 2, is being started
14 at 14 minutes and 44 seconds.
12:10:42 15 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect.
12:10:47 16 (State's Exhibit Number 2 continued to be published to
17 the jury by use of the AV system.)
19 the audio has been stopped at 27 minutes and 48 seconds.
12:24:05 20 Your Honor, may we approach?
23 the hearing of the jury beginning at 12:24 p.m.)
25 the audio recording is beginning at 27 minutes and 48

228
1 seconds.
12:24:27 2 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect.
12:10:47 3 (State's Exhibit Number 2 continued to be published to
4 the jury by use of the AV system.)
6 the Exhibit 2 was stopped at 34 minutes and 41 seconds.
12:31:31 8 Q. Mr. Shiver, if you recall, was that the end of the
9 interview with Mr. Fuller? Was that the end of your
10 interview?
12:31:37 11 A. It sounds like it. I would assume that it is,
12 based on the way it sounded.
12:31:48 13 MR. COURLANG: I have nothing further of
14 Mr. Shiver, Your Honor.
16 that the State's Exhibit Number 2 was published to the jury
17 in its entirety.
12:31:56 18 It's time for lunch. Ladies and gentlemen,
19 remember the rules. Don't be talking about the case. Keep
20 an open mind. You haven't heard it all. Remember all of
21 the rest of the rules. And be back outside the courtroom
22 at 2:00 o'clock.
12:32:08 23 Everybody remain seated while the jury leaves the
24 courtroom. Leave your notepads in your chairs. Thank you.
12:33:13 25 THE WITNESS: Did -- did he have any questions for

229
1 me?
12:33:13 2 THE COURT: We are going to do that after lunch.
3 Sorry.
12:33:13 4 MR. FULLER: I don't have any questions. He can
5 be dismissed.
12:33:13 6 THE COURT: We will get to that outside of their
7 presence. All right. Hang on.
12:33:13 8 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
12:33:17 9 THE COURT: That's okay.
12 the jury.)
12:33:17 13 THE COURT: All right. The jury is absent. Are
14 there going to be any more questions of this witness by the
15 State?
12:33:24 17 THE COURT: And, Mr. Fuller, you don't wish to
18 cross-examine him?
12:33:30 19 MR. FULLER: Due to his -- his bad condition, I
20 think it would be best if he -- he can leave. I -- I don't
21 need him to stay.
12:33:38 23 MR. FULLER: If he wants to stay just to watch, I
24 would like to ask permission for him to do that; but that's
25 his choice.

230
12:33:43 1 THE COURT: Would you like to stay or would you
2 like to --
12:33:45 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, I'm -- I'm here to do
4 whatever needs to be done.
12:33:49 5 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I'm not going to put him
6 in that bind. Do you want to ask him questions or not?
12:33:55 7 MR. FULLER: Okay. I don't have any questions for
8 him.
12:33:57 9 THE COURT: Okay. You are free to go. You are
10 free to stay.
12:33:59 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
12:33:59 12 THE COURT: Thank you very much. We are at lunch
13 until 2:00 o'clock.
14:01:47 19 (The following proceedings were had out of the presence
20 of the jury.)
14:01:48 21 THE COURT: Thank you. The jury is absent.
22 Mr. Fuller is present. The State is present. I need to put
23 something on the record.
14:01:58 24 During the lunch recess, the alternate juror,
25 Ms. Freeman, reported to the deputy that as she and other

231
1 jurors exited the courthouse that Mr. Fuller was on the
2 steps of the courthouse discussing his case. I don't get
3 the impression from her -- I haven't talked to her -- I
4 don't get the impression from that statement that she meant
5 to say or even imply that Mr. Fuller did that on purpose or
6 that he had targeted any conversation toward any of the
7 jurors.
14:02:32 8 Mr. Fuller, would you like me to ask that juror
9 any questions on the record to determine whether she has
10 been impacted by that in any way that might cause you not
11 to get a fair trial?
14:02:47 12 MR. FULLER: I -- I do not recall the incident.
13 My -- my parents are here. And I think I was just talking
14 to them, and I was paying attention to them and don't
15 remember anyone else around.
14:02:59 16 THE COURT: Okay. All I'm asking you is: Now
17 that you know that the alternate juror has reported that to
18 the sheriff --
14:03:07 20 THE COURT: -- would you like me to ask her any
21 questions to determine whether she can continue to serve on
22 this jury?
14:03:13 23 MR. FULLER: I will leave that in your discretion.
14:03:15 24 THE COURT: What would the State like me to do?
14:03:17 25 MR. COURLANG: The State would ask that the Court

232
1 inquire as to the alternate juror.
14:03:21 2 THE COURT: Okay. I will do that.
14:03:24 4 THE COURT: Okay. And I'm going to ask the
5 questions. I'm not going to let anybody else ask any
6 questions.
14:03:29 7 Bring Ms. Freeman in here, please.
14:03:33 8 MR. FULLER: And I have got a few items --
14:03:35 9 THE COURT: All right. The jury is still absent.
14:03:39 10 MR. FULLER: -- before we bring anyone in.
14:03:41 11 THE COURT: Go ahead.
14:03:42 12 MR. FULLER: First, I'm delighted to say that we
13 do have a witness in the defense's favor that has come all
14 the way from Wilmington. And it would mean a great deal to
15 me emotionally, even if the Court is going to dismiss the
16 case if it decides to after the next witness -- but I would
17 really like for Professor Styles to speak on my behalf.
18 It's kind of an emotional thing after about a two year --
14:04:09 19 THE COURT: All right. In the exercise of my
20 discretion, I will only allow that after the State closes
21 its evidence so it might be tomorrow.
14:04:18 22 MR. FULLER: And on that point, we don't have any
23 evidence, at least that I understand, involving e-mails at
24 this point. That might be addressed better without the
25 jurors because I plan to -- to make a 901(b)(1) motion to

233
1 exclude a number of them. And we are going to need to go
2 through every single one individually. And that's going to
3 be kind of technically complicated.
14:04:46 4 THE COURT: All right. I will keep that in mind
5 for scheduling purposes. I don't even know what the State
6 is propounding yet, so we will get to that if they offer any
7 e-mails. I don't get to tell them in what order to put
8 their evidence on. But I -- I will keep that in mind.
14:05:05 9 MR. FULLER: And the -- and -- and one more thing,
10 Your Honor. If we could be very clear with the jurors that
11 I have admitted to sending no e-mails whatsoever at this
12 point. I'm willing possibly to make such an admission; but
13 at this point, it is (sic) not been established which
14 e-mails have been sent and received from me to the State's
15 witness. And I think there has been some language,
16 including from Your Honor, perhaps, that might have assumed
17 that as fact.
14:05:35 18 THE COURT: Ummm --
14:05:41 19 MR. FULLER: We just haven't gotten to the
20 evidence yet.
14:05:44 21 THE COURT: We will talk about the sufficiency of
22 the evidence at the close of the State's case.
14:05:50 23 All right. Bring Ms. Freeman in, please.
14:05:55 24 (The alternate juror entered the courtroom and was
25 seated in her seat in the jury box.)

234
2 that the alternate juror, Ms. Freeman, is present in the
3 courtroom and that all other jurors are absent.
14:06:21 4 Ms. Freeman, of course you are not in any trouble.
5 I just wanted to follow-up on what you told the deputy.
14:06:26 6 ALTERNATE JUROR: I didn't know if --
14:06:26 7 THE COURT: Could you tell me what happened,
8 please.
14:06:29 9 ALTERNATE JUROR: Sure. I didn't know if it was
10 relevant. As I was coming around the corner, I did see
11 Mr. Fuller, so I was, like, making a point of getting into
12 the building quickly because I didn't want any problems.
13 And I could hear him talking about his case. I don't know
14 what he was talking about; but I know that the person that
15 he was speaking to was, like, "Is this appropriate? Should
16 we be talking?" and he was like, "Yeah, it's fine. I just
17 need to prove," and I was, like, in the building. That's
18 all I heard, but...
14:06:54 19 THE COURT: Okay. Did you get the sense that he
20 was trying to direct his statements towards you or any other
21 jurors?
14:07:01 22 ALTERNATE JUROR: No, because I feel like he was
23 already having the conversation; and there was nobody else
24 around besides him and whoever that other person was.
14:07:09 25 THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything about that

235
1 that makes you think that you can't put whatever you heard
2 and saw outside your mind and decide this case based only on
3 the evidence and the law?
14:07:19 4 ALTERNATE JUROR: No, Your Honor.
14:07:20 5 THE COURT: Have you had this conversation with
6 any of your fellow jurors?
14:07:23 7 ALTERNATE JUROR: I did mention it to two of them
8 to ask them if they thought I should tell you.
14:07:28 9 THE COURT: And what did they say?
14:07:30 10 ALTERNATE JUROR: They said "yes."
14:07:31 11 THE COURT: Did you get the sense that either of
12 them heard any more than you heard?
14:07:36 13 ALTERNATE JUROR: No. I was the first -- I was
14 the only person entering the building as he was talking; and
15 I specifically made a point of being quick and not, you
16 know.
14:07:43 17 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you for bringing that up.
14:07:46 18 ALTERNATE JUROR: Sure.
14:07:47 19 THE COURT: Does either side have anything they
20 want to follow up with about that?
14:07:54 23 Mr. Fuller?
14:07:55 24 MR. FULLER: All right. No. And -- and now it
25 brings up the context --

236
14:07:58 1 THE COURT: Hang on. Hang on. All I did is ask
2 you if you want to -- I don't intend to do anything about
3 it.
14:08:04 4 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yeah. I -- I don't have any
5 comment.
14:08:07 6 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much.
7 Bring the rest of the jurors in, please.
14:10:08 8 (The remaining jurors came back into the courtroom at
9 2:10 p.m., and the following proceedings were had in
10 the presence of the jury.)
14:10:16 11 THE COURT: All right. All the jurors are present
12 in the courtroom.
14:10:19 13 Before we resume the evidence, I just want to
14 remind everybody -- this doesn't pertain to any particular
15 person; it pertains to everybody who has any association
16 with this case at all: Be mindful of the jury. You know
17 who they are. They are wearing name -- they are wearing
18 badges. Be extra careful not to be discussing the case,
19 not only directed toward them but in their presence. I
20 don't find that anything has happened that would cause me
21 to take any action, but just -- it's an extra reminder. Be
22 really careful who is around you when you are talking about
23 the case.
14:10:56 24 All right. At this time I will have the State to
25 call its next witness.

237
DIRECT OF LISA DE SAX ZERDEN BY MR. COURLANG
14:10:59 1 MR. COURLANG: The State would call Dr. Zerden.
14:11:03 2 THE COURT: Come on up.
14:11:04 3 MR. FULLER: If I could make an objection. If we
4 can just call her Mrs. -- I think it's -- it's inappropriate
5 to use the term "Doctor." Actually, I could use the term
6 myself for doctor.
14:11:15 7 THE COURT: Are you a -- (indiscernable).
14:11:15 8 MR. FULLER: (Interposing; indiscernable.)
14:11:15 9 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, Judge. What was
10 it you said?
14:11:15 11 THE COURT: Are you a Ph.D?
14:11:22 12 MR. FULLER: No. But in Italy, I am considered
13 "dottore."
14:11:26 14 THE COURT: All right. In this courtroom, you are
15 Mr. Fuller; and this witness is Dr. Zerden. Your objection
16 is overruled.
14:11:32 17 You may take the stand.
14:11:33 18 LISA DE SAX ZERDEN
14:11:53 23 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Zerden. Can you please state
24 and spell your name for the Court.
14:11:58 25 A. Sure. My name Lisa de Saxe Zerden -- D-E S-A-X-E.

238
DIRECT OF LISA DE SAX ZERDEN BY MR. COURLANG
1 And Zerden is spelled Z-E-R-D-E-N.
14:12:08 2 Q. And Dr. Zerden, how are you employed?
14:12:12 3 A. I am the Senior Associate Dean at the School of
4 Social Work at UNC Chapel Hill. I have been with UNC Chapel
5 Hill since 2010.
14:12:23 6 Q. And, Dr. Zerden, I want to take you back to
7 December 27th, 2016.
14:12:30 8 A. Sure.
14:12:30 9 Q. On this date, did you begin to receive some
10 e-mails that might have been signed by one Napier Fuller?
14:12:41 11 MR. FULLER: Objection. Authentication. We don't
12 have any evidence admitted.
14 consider a matter of law outside your presence. Please go
15 to the jury room. And then I will call you back when we are
16 finished.
14:13:00 17 BAILIFF COLLINS: Leave your notebooks in your
18 chairs, please.
21 the jury.)
14:13:31 22 THE COURT: Okay. The jury is absent.
14:13:34 23 Mr. Fuller, I'm going to go ahead and hear what
24 their evidentiary foundation is, and then I will hear from
25 you. This is called a voir dire examination of the

239
VOIR DIRE OF LISA DE SAXE ZERDEN BY MR. COURLANG
1 witness. Go ahead -- by you.
14:13:45 3 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION BY MR. COURLANG:
14:13:46 4 Q. Okay. Dr. Zerden, back on December 27, 2016, did
5 you begin to receive e-mails that had contained the name
6 Napier Fuller in them?
14:13:58 7 A. Yes, sir, I did.
14:13:59 8 Q. Okay. Did the e-mails come from different
9 addresses?
14:14:03 10 A. Yes. On December 27th, the first e-mail I
11 received was from antitrannypac@gmail,
12 A-N-T-I-T-R-A-N-N-Y-P-A-C @gmail.com. And this was sent to
13 me and my e-mail address, lzerden@e-mail.unc.edu.
14:14:27 14 Q. And between December 27th, 2016, and January 30th,
15 2017, did you receive a number of e-mails that contained
16 similar content?
14:14:40 17 A. Yes, sir, I did. And they were from various
18 e-mail addresses.
14:14:45 19 Q. And what were those e-mail address?
14:14:48 20 A. So the antitranny one that I mentioned.
14:14:51 21 Q. Uh-huh.
14:14:52 22 A. The second e-mail was from Napier Fuller, and it
23 was an mit.edu address with his name.
14:15:06 24 Q. Okay.
14:15:07 25 A. Some other e-mail addresses included, again, the

240
1 napierfulleralum@mit e-mail. And they sort of go on in
2 that -- in that vein.
14:15:21 3 Q. Okay. And how many e-mails in total did you
4 receive in that time period between December 27th, 2016, and
5 January 30th, 2017?
14:15:31 6 A. In that brief time period, I received 12 e-mails.
14:15:34 7 Q. Okay. And were there indications that these 12
8 e-mails were being sent from the same person?
14:15:41 9 A. Yes.
14:15:41 10 Q. What were those indications?
14:15:43 11 A. Not only that Napier Fuller's name was associated
12 with the e-mail addresses -- and when his full name was not
13 associated with that e-mail address, there was that
14 antitranny.org stamp that Detective Barbee had talked about.
15 That seems to be an organization or brand that was located
16 on most of the e-mails. The e-mails also had a little bio
17 about Mr. Fuller and his Lynwood address in Wilmington.
14:16:10 18 Q. Okay.
20 identification.)
14:16:14 21 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, if I may approach with
22 what's marked as State's Exhibit Number 3?
14:16:22 24 MR. COURLANG: Mr. Fuller has a copy of this.
14:16:23 25 MR. FULLER: I -- if this is the same, I would

241
1 like to have an additional copy to make sure. I have never
2 seen whatever you are holding in your hand.
14:16:34 3 MR. COURLANG: Okay. This is exact copy of what I
4 have already given Mr. Fuller.
14:16:37 6 MR. COURLANG: I will give him a second copy.
14:16:40 7 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
14:16:41 8 MR. FULLER: If I could have just a moment to
9 compare these and maybe the Court could use its time while
10 I'm looking through it.
14:16:50 11 THE COURT: Well, he is going to go through this
12 stuff with her, I take it, so you can go through it as he
13 goes through it with the witness. Keep in mind, the jury is
14 absent. I'm not ruling on the admissibility until we know
15 what we are doing here. So go ahead.
14:17:04 16 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, if I may approach
17 Dr. Zerden at this time?
14:17:19 22 Q. Dr. Zerden, if I could just give you a minute to
23 flip through what's been marked State's Exhibit Number 3.
24 If you could, just look up back at me when you are done.
14:17:32 25 A. (Appeared to comply.)

242
14:17:38 1 These are a copy of what I received as well.
14:17:40 2 Q. Okay. So these are the e-mails that you just
3 testified to?
14:17:44 4 A. Yes, sir.
14:17:45 5 Q. And, Dr. Zerden, I think we are going to have to
6 go through these one by one. Now, essentially, I'm going to
7 ask you -- I have -- strike that.
14:18:01 8 Can we go through these one by one, and can you
9 show me the indications that they are all sent from one
10 person, Napier Fuller?
14:18:09 11 A. Sure.
14:18:09 12 MR. FULLER: Perhaps -- if I may make an
13 objection -- to start off -- that I would object to numbers
14 9, 10, and 11 for Rule 901(b)(1) because they are not
15 addressed to Mr. Napier Fuller.
14:18:22 16 THE COURT: You say they are not addressed to
17 Mr. Napier Fuller.
14:18:28 18 Can you give me a packet so that I can be
19 following along here?
14:18:32 20 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor, if I may approach.
14:18:34 21 THE COURT: Yep.
14:18:37 23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, are you
24 talking about numbers...
14:18:40 25 MR. FULLER: 9 --

243
14:18:40 1 THE COURT: Are you talking about the pages at the
2 bottom -- where -- which numbers are you talking about? Oh,
3 I see. I see.
14:18:46 4 All right. Number 9 you object because...
14:18:50 5 MR. FULLER: I find that it's -- I'm not --
6 well -- well, first of all, it would be considered e-mail
7 hearsay; but we will get into that later.
14:19:03 8 But, as I say, for this objection, in the "from,"
9 assuming we are not talking about the top tuple -- we are
10 talking about the middle tuple -- I don't see my name. I'm
11 not -- I don't see that I have anything to do with this. I
12 just don't see it.
14:19:24 13 THE COURT: All right. Just so that I know that
14 we are -- what legal framework we are operating under,
15 what -- what rule of evidence does the State contend that
16 these e-mails are admissible under?
14:19:44 17 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State -- the State
18 would contend under 901 -- we contend on 901(b)(4),
19 distinctive characteristics and the like. The State would
20 contend that these particular e-mails that don't
21 specifically include Mr. Fuller's name have distinct
22 characteristics of other e-mails that were sent to Dr.
23 Zerden. And we contend --
14:20:14 24 THE COURT: Okay. What is your response to that
25 argument?

244
14:20:17 1 MR. FULLER: I would object. I mean, we have to
2 look at them -- start somewhere. And we can't start by
3 saying, "Well, there is something there. They are kind of
4 like other ones." Nine, ten, and eleven, I have looked at.
5 I can't find my name. You talked about this
6 anti-transgender organization. And, for some reason, some
7 one has just assumed I'm the only person in there, which I
8 think is quite an assumption. But it's -- apparently, it's
9 just been carried without any evidence whatsoever. So I
10 challenge you to find my name in e-mails 9, 10, and 11. I
11 couldn't find it.
14:20:55 12 THE COURT: All right. Given the detective's
13 testimony that's in evidence in the record that the website
14 antitranny.org was registered to and paid for by the
15 defendant, and given, from my review of these, that these
16 e-mails, based on --
14:21:27 17 MR. FULLER: Well --
14:21:27 18 THE COURT: Would you stop?
14:21:28 19 MR. FULLER: Oh, I'm sorry.
14:21:29 20 THE COURT: Based on their appearance, content,
21 substance, internal patterns and other distinctive
22 characteristics meet the standard of authentication
23 prescribed by the rules of evidence, your objection is
24 overruled. Your exception to my ruling is noted for the
25 record, but that's my ruling. And I'm not going to argue

245
1 with you about it. Okay.
14:21:53 2 MR. FULLER: If I could say one thing, Judge.
14:21:56 4 MR. FULLER: I just wanted to politely point out
5 for you to reconsider. If you look at e-mail number 10,
6 it's not even addressed to -- not even her or me so you have
7 neither party even involved so how can that possibly come
8 in? It's not even to -- to the witness.
14:22:40 9 THE COURT: Forgive me. I'm blanking on your
10 name, and I don't want to look it up. What's your last
11 name?
14:22:46 12 MR. COURLANG: It's Courlang, sir.
14:22:48 13 THE COURT: Courlang.
14:22:49 14 MR. COURLANG: Yes.
14:22:50 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry.
14:22:50 16 Mr. Courlang, as to e-mail number 10, what is your
17 argument about that one?
14:22:55 18 MR. COURLANG: With regards to Mr. Fuller's name,
19 the e-mail is from antitranny.org. carat, telling the truth,
20 with e-mail address being political_outreach@antitranny.org.
21 And we couple that with Investigator Barbee's testimony that
22 antitranny.org was indeed registered to Mr. Fuller. We
23 contend that it was sent --
14:23:20 24 THE COURT: But that's not my point. My point is,
25 it's not addressed to Dr. Zerden.

246
14:23:25 1 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, if I could take
2 Dr. Zerden on voir dire to --
14:23:31 5 Q. Dr. Zerden, I want to point your attention to
6 e-mail number 10, received on January 24th, 2017, at
7 7:03 p.m.
14:23:39 8 Can you take a look at this?
14:23:41 9 A. Yes, sir.
14:23:43 10 Q. Dr. Zerden, did you receive this e-mail in your
11 e-mail?
14:23:45 12 A. I did receive this e-mail in my inbox at
13 lzerden@unc.edu. And the reason you don't see my name is
14 because I was blind cc-ed. That's why I received it, but
15 I'm not listed as the "to" recipient.
14:24:01 16 Q. Dr. Zerden, could you explain what "blind cc-ed"
17 means?
14:24:05 18 A. It's when you can carbon copy recipients blindly
19 so that other people on the e-mail distribution cannot see
20 that. I think that's why you are not seeing my name, but it
21 was part of the grouping of e-mails that I received during
22 this period.
14:24:20 23 THE COURT: All right. So your testimony is that
24 this e-mail came to your inbox at your UNC e-mail address --

247
DIRECT OF LISA DE SAXE ZERDEN BY MR. COURLANG
14:24:30 1 THE COURT: -- as a blind cc or that when you saw
2 it, it looked like this, and it was delivered --
14:24:38 4 THE COURT: -- to your e-mail address?
14:24:40 5 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
14:24:41 6 THE COURT: Okay. The objection is overruled.
14:24:43 7 Okay. Bring the jury back please.
10 of the jury.)
14:25:36 11 THE COURT: All right. The jury is present and
12 the objection is overruled.
14:25:39 13 You may proceed.
14:25:44 16 Q. Dr. Zerden, between December 27th and
17 January 30th, did you receive e-mails that indicated they
18 were from Napier Fuller?
14:25:52 19 A. Yes, sir, I did.
14:25:53 20 Q. And how many did you receive in that time period?
14:25:55 21 A. In that specific time period, I received 12
22 e-mails.
14:25:59 23 Q. Okay. And did those e-mails have different e-mail
24 addresses as the sender?
14:26:04 25 A. Yes, they did. The first one I received was from

248
1 antitrannypac@gmail.com.
14:26:13 2 Q. Okay.
14:26:15 3 A. The second e-mail I received was from
4 napierfuller.alum.mit.edu.
14:26:24 5 MR. FULLER: I object. That's not what it states.
14:26:27 6 THE COURT: Overruled. You can cross-examine her
7 about that. Her testimony is her testimony.
14:26:33 8 THE WITNESS: The third e-mail I received was
9 from -- explicitly, as it's written here, Napier --
10 N-A-P-I-E-R -- equal sign, alum -- A-L-U-M --
11 .mit.edu@mail74.ATL51.srsgsv.net --
14:27:08 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Stop. Gsv or b?
14:27:08 13 THE WITNESS: Gsv as in victor.net on behalf of
14 Napier S. Fuller, Esq.
14:27:13 16 Q. Okay.
14:27:14 17 A. I can keep going, if you would like.
14:27:16 18 Q. Dr. Zerden, I think we will stop you there.
14:27:18 19 A. Okay.
14:27:19 20 Q. Did these e-mails, do they contain indications
21 that the same person was sending these e-mails from the
22 various e-mail addresses?
14:27:27 23 A. Yes.
14:27:29 24 Q. What were those indications?
14:27:31 25 A. Beyond the similarity of the e-mail addresses,

249
1 AntiTranny, Napier Fuller, his name being on these things,
2 some of them were signed specifically by --
14:27:43 3 MR. FULLER: Objection. We need to be specific
4 and refer to specific e-mails.
14:27:46 5 THE COURT: That's fair enough. Sustained. Don't
6 just say "some of them."
14:27:49 7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14:27:49 8 THE COURT: Please talk about which ones you
9 specifically mean.
14:27:53 10 THE WITNESS: All right.
14:27:55 11 Starting with e-mail one, we have it from
12 antitrannypac, and it was signed "Napier." At the very end
13 of that e-mail, there was the antitranny.org stamp, which
14 Detective Barbee had talked about. This is a pretty common
15 stamping or logo that was located on a lot of the e-mails.
14:28:19 17 Q. Doctor, if I could just stop you for a minute.
14:28:21 18 Your Honor, if I may approach with what's marked
19 State's Exhibit Number 3?
14:28:26 21 MR. COURLANG: Mr. Fuller does have a copy.
14:28:28 22 THE COURT: I thought that's what she was already
23 talking about.
14:28:32 25 Q. Dr. Zerden, do you have a copy of that?

250
14:28:33 1 A. Yes.
14:28:33 2 Q. All right. And at this time, Dr. Zerden, if you
3 could, just take a minute and just look through State's
4 Exhibit Number 3.
14:28:44 5 A. Uh-huh.
14:28:45 6 Q. And look up at me when you are done.
14:28:47 7 A. Okay.
14:29:07 8 (Appeared to comply.)
14:29:08 9 Q. Are these the e-mails that you've testified to
10 being sent between December 27th and January 30th?
14:29:17 11 A. Yes, sir, they are.
14:29:24 12 MR. COURLANG: At this time the State would move
13 to have State's Exhibit 3 entered into evidence and
14 published to the jury.
14:29:30 15 MR. FULLER: And I would object. Number 13 does
16 not have anything to do with me, by the way.
14:29:40 19 MR. FULLER: And I would also --
14:29:41 20 THE COURT: Hang on. I'm -- what's the State's
21 contention -- well...
14:30:20 23 THE COURT: All right. I hate to do it, but I
24 need to send the jury out again.
14:30:24 25 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please remember

251
1 the rules. Keep an open mind. Remember the rest of the
2 rules. I will see you as soon as I finish this hearing
3 outside your presence.
6 the jury.)
8 Mr. Courlang, what -- how do you get number 13 into
9 evidence?
14:31:16 10 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, if I could inquire as
11 to Dr. Zerden?
14:31:18 12 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Go ahead.
14:31:21 14 Q. Dr. Zerden, if you could turn to e-mail Number 13
15 in State's Exhibit Number 3?
14:31:25 16 A. Sure.
14:31:26 17 Q. And can you tell the Court what this is?
14:31:28 18 A. Yes. Our students, staff, and faculty at the
19 School of Social Work were receiving e-mails from a listserv
20 that they had not subscribed to or asked to be joined or
21 become members of, and they were sent through a mail
22 organization called MailChimp. So I found the -- the
23 contact information for MailChimp. And I asked that this
24 account be blocked because this was not requested, desired,
25 wanted e-mail communication.

252
14:31:59 1 And what e-mail 13 is exhibiting here is how I was
2 trying to exert my authority, my position at the School of
3 Social Work, to block these e-mails and protect our
4 students, staff, and faculty.
14:32:11 5 Q. And is this an e-mail that you wrote?
14:32:14 6 A. It is an e-mail I wrote.
14:32:16 7 Q. Okay. And it's regards to Mr. Fuller's e-mails?
14:32:21 8 A. That's correct.
14:32:22 9 In the e-mail that I wrote to the MailChimp
10 administrators, I explained who I am. I explained my role.
11 I explained who we have received these explicit e-mails from
12 and why we would like the e-mail listserv to be stopped and
13 that it was not requested communication.
14:32:39 14 THE COURT: Well, let me -- let me ask you this,
15 Mister -- I don't know why I have a block on your name.
14:32:46 16 MR. FULLER: Mr. Fuller.
14:32:47 17 THE COURT: -- Courlang. Is the e-mail that
18 purports to be from Mr. Fuller dated December the 26th,
19 2016, that's in the body of this e-mail part of one of the
20 other 12 e-mails in this packet?
14:33:07 21 THE WITNESS: I believe it's e-mail 3.
14:33:11 22 MR. COURLANG: Is Your Honor referring to the
23 December 28th e-mail?
14:33:19 24 THE COURT: Yes. The witness just testified it's
25 e-mail number 3. Let's take a look.

253
14:33:26 1 MR. COURLANG: That is correct, Your Honor. It
2 is, in this packet, e-mail number 3.
14:33:33 3 THE COURT: Okay. Objection overruled.
14:33:35 4 Bring the jury back.
7 of the jury.)
14:34:25 8 THE COURT: All right. The jury is present.
14:34:28 9 Over the defendant's objections, State's Exhibit
10 Number 3 is received into evidence.
14:34:33 12 MR. COURLANG: The State would request that it be
13 published to the jury.
14:34:36 14 THE COURT: That's allowed. Do I have one of the
15 copies that you need or do you have enough?
14:34:40 16 MR. COURLANG: No, sir, I have enough.
14:34:40 17 MR. FULLER: Objection. I request this is in
18 color so that it reflects the original because we have a lot
19 of color images, and we really need to be accurate in the
20 renderings.
14:34:51 21 THE COURT: All right. That objection is
22 overruled.
14:34:52 23 You may publish. Mr. Sheriff.
25 distributing a copy to each juror.)

254
14:35:07 1 THE COURT: Are you planning to ask questions from
2 these documents with the witness?
14:35:10 3 MR. COURLANG: I am.
14:35:11 4 THE COURT: I'm just -- there's not really any
5 need for the jury to read the whole thing right now; right?
14:35:16 6 MR. COURLANG: No, Your Honor. I am planning --
14:35:18 7 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, just keep this
8 for your reference during the questioning of this witness.
14:35:26 9 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, I would request that the
10 entire thing be read into the record.
14:35:30 11 THE COURT: It's in evidence and they have it so
12 that request is denied at this point. You are going to be
13 free to do that if you want to when it's your turn.
14:35:44 16 Q. Dr. Zerden, if I could turn your attention to
17 State's Exhibit Number 3. These are the e-mails that you
18 received from Mr. Fuller during this time period, January --
19 strike -- December 27th through January 30th?
14:35:55 20 A. That is correct.
14:35:56 21 Q. And I'm going to ask you to go through these
22 e-mails one by one for the Court. If we can begin at e-mail
23 number 1, could you tell us what date and time you received
24 this e-mail?
14:36:07 25 A. Sure. I received the first e-mail on Friday

255
1 April 14th, 2017. Oh, I'm sorry, that's when I sent it
2 to -- to the DA's Office. I received this e-mail on Tuesday
3 December 27th, 2016.
14:36:26 4 Q. And who was this e-mail sent from, which address?
14:36:30 5 A. Antitrannypac@gmail.com sent to me, and that's my
6 UNC e-mail address.
14:36:35 7 Q. Okay. And this particular e-mail, was it signed
8 by the -- was there a name at the bottom?
14:36:43 9 A. Yes. This was signed by Napier. And I will
10 explain that this e-mail was in response to my colleague
11 Laurie Selz-Campbell and some communication she had received
12 from Mr. Fuller. I am Ms. Selz-Campbell's direct
13 supervisor. I supervise over 35 faculty in the School of
14 Social Work and 300 students, and that's why I was also
15 privy to these communications.
14:37:11 16 Q. And on this particular e-mail, is there a logo at
17 the bottom of this e-mail?
14:37:19 18 A. Yes, there is.
14:37:20 19 Q. What is the logo?
14:37:21 20 A. The last logo on this e-mail is that
21 antitranny.org stamp. That is common in many of the
22 communications I received from Mr. Fuller.
14:37:31 23 Q. And, Dr. Zerden, if I could turn your attention to
24 the second e-mail?
14:37:35 25 A. Yep. This was received about an hour-and-a-half

256
1 later, December 27th at 8:44 p.m.
14:37:43 2 Q. Okay. And who was it sent from in the address
3 line?
14:37:49 4 A. It was sent from Napier S. Fuller, comma, Esq.
14:37:53 5 Q. Okay. And it was sent to?
14:37:55 6 A. To me. And that is my UNC e-mail address. And
7 the subject is:
14:38:01 8 [as read] UNC SSW faculty engaged in criminal
9 acts.
14:38:04 10 Q. Okay. And is there anything that you took as
11 particularly threatening or abusive in this e-mail?
14:38:17 12 A. Well, clearly as a faculty member at a State
13 institution, I take my role and responsibility quite
14 seriously. And to be opening up an e-mail that said that I
15 could face days in jail for illegal lobbying, it was just
16 really concerning. So that's why I opened the message,
17 which was filled with different statutes and legalese
18 throughout the e-mail.
14:38:41 19 On the last page of this e-mail, there is a little
20 bio about Napier Fuller. And at the very end, there is
21 something that says MailChimp, which is an e-mail listserv
22 or e-mail distribution listserv which shows me that these
23 e-mails were put on a listserv. We did not ask to be put on
24 this listserv. I did not sign up for this listserv. I did
25 not give my e-mail address, nor did my students, who were

257
1 sending me communication being concerned about this, nor
2 were the faculty. This was unsolicited e-mail sent to us
3 from Napier Fuller through the MailChimp listserv.
14:39:21 4 Q. And just above that MailChimp logo, is there a
5 name and address on there?
14:39:25 6 A. Yes.
14:39:25 7 Q. What is that?
14:39:26 8 A. It says: Fuller. And it gives this Lynwood
9 Drive, Wilmington, address, which is also another common
10 theme throughout all of the e-mail communications I
11 received.
14:39:34 12 Q. Okay. Dr. Zerden, if I could turn your attention
13 to e-mail number 3?
14:39:39 14 A. Sure.
14:39:39 15 Q. What date and time did you receive this --
14:39:42 16 A. This was --
14:39:42 17 Q. -- version?
14:39:43 18 A. Certainly. This was received the next day on
19 December 28th at 8:14 a.m., about 12 hours later.
14:39:50 20 Q. Okay.
14:39:51 21 A. This was sent directly to me from Napier Fuller.
14:39:54 22 MR. FULLER: I -- I have an objection. If -- for
23 the elements of the crime, can we state where it was
24 received in terms of geography? It would be very helpful.
14:40:07 25 THE COURT: Where were you when you opened up the

258
1 mail? Do you know?
14:40:12 2 THE WITNESS: (Nodded.) I know that this was
3 UNC's winter break, so I was on campus for receiving some of
4 them. I might have been off campus. I can't tell you
5 e-mail 1, 2, 3, 4 if I was on campus or not. All of these
6 e-mails, when winter break ended and I got back to my
7 office, I opened them up and read them very thoroughly. I
8 printed them off, and I shared them with Detective Barbee
9 because there was an alarming elements (sic) to them, so...
14:40:42 11 And, Mr. Fuller, some of your objections are more
12 properly addressed in cross-examination, so I'm not
13 preventing you from asking her questions about it just by
14 sustaining or overruling your objections. Okay?
14:40:56 18 Q. Okay. Dr. Zerden, what is the subject line for
19 this third e-mail?
14:41:01 20 A. Sure. The subject line is:
14:41:02 21 [as read] UNC SSW faculty. Did I shit on your
22 progressive bubble -- question mark? File a hate
23 incident and have an instant echo chamber. Play
24 the victim.
14:41:15 25 Q. And is there a box in the middle with --

259
14:41:19 1 A. Yes.
14:41:19 2 Q. -- some wording?
14:41:21 3 A. Yes. And I --
14:41:21 4 Q. What's that wording say?
14:41:23 5 A. And I want to just read this and explain why it
6 was so alarming. The box says:
14:41:28 7 [as read] Trigger warning. This is not a safe
8 zone designed to create an echo chamber for a
9 group of third-rate academic LGBTQ plus Obama
10 supporting godless pagans at UNC. I couldn't give
11 a shit about your feelings regarding pagan sex,
12 gender confusion, and hedonistic lifestyle. Just
13 get on the Trump train. We are going to make fun
14 of diesel dykes.
14:41:59 15 The next part is bizarre, but I would like to also
16 make reference to why it was so disturbing. It continues:
14:42:06 17 [as read] I met a plump brown alum in Boston.
18 Drove a dump truck. More of a man than I could
19 dream of being. Tats, nose rings, spit dip. I
20 said in jest: Must be great to drop a big load
21 after you have been running that gearbox rough,
22 and I know keep your box well lubed. My motto:
23 Never enough lubrication when the RPMs red line
24 and the dry shaft spins.
14:42:33 25 It's a bizarre thing to say, but I think that -- I

260
1 don't know how to explain this, but box is a pejorative term
2 for a woman's vagina; and keeping it well lubed, to me,
3 there is a lot of innuendo here around rape and violence
4 towards women.
14:42:53 5 It continues -- and I can continue reading if you
6 would like me to do that.
14:42:57 7 Q. Yes, please.
14:43:00 8 A. [as read] Hilarious. A true story. She was not
9 amused. Anyway, I'm AntiTranny activist. I
10 prepare policy briefings --
14:43:11 11 THE COURT REPORTER: Stop. I need you to read
12 more slowly. You prepare or repair?
14:43:11 13 THE WITNESS: I prepare --
14:43:11 14 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
14:43:11 15 THE WITNESS: -- policy briefings for members of
16 NCGA on issues relating to human sexuality. HB2
17 has been my focus.
14:43:23 19 Q. Was there anything else in this e-mail that you
20 found to be harassing or abusing?
14:43:30 21 A. Sure.
14:43:31 22 Q. What else?
14:43:32 23 A. We have gay, lesbian, transgender students and
24 faculty at our school. Calling anyone a "diesel dyke" is a
25 derogatory, pejorative term. It is hate speech. As an

261
1 administrator I would not accept this if it was about a
2 Jewish person or a black person. And to me, that really
3 crossed a line. I also worked very hard for my Ph.D. at a
4 top rate school of social work, and I didn't like being
5 offended.
14:44:01 6 This goes on to say how our School of Social Work
7 is scary. He says that we are the blind leading the blind:
14:44:09 8 [as read] All of this addiction bullshit and
9 personal problems with kids. Haven't you all been
10 to Japan or South Korea? They don't got problems
11 there, thus they don't need social work crapola.
14:44:25 12 It goes on and on. And there is another line that
13 says:
14:44:26 14 [as read] LBGT activists love to play the victim.
15 Go ahead. File a complaint. Yet know that an NC
16 resident who pays your salary is pissed off
17 because you have engaged in criminal acts,
18 unlawful lobbying at the NCGA. And, yes, I'm
19 filing a complaint with the DA and AG.
14:44:48 20 He goes on to give a report or gay harassment line,
21 which is 1-800-gay-dyke, D-Y-K-E, another pejorative
22 term for people of the LGBT community. And at the very
23 end of this e-mail is that antitranny.org stamp, along
24 with Fuller, the Lynwood Drive, Wilmington, address,
25 and the MailChimp logo.

262
14:45:15 1 Q. Thank you. Dr. Zerden, if I could turn your
2 attention now to e-mail number 4, when was this received by
3 you?
14:45:24 4 A. This e-mail was received Thursday, December 29th
5 at 10:44 a.m. And it came from antitrannypac@gmail.com. It
6 was to the liberalwatch@email.unc.edu. You cannot see my
7 lzerden e-mail address because I think I was either blind
8 cc-ed or he somehow grouped us into this larger e-mail
9 address. But I received this e-mail from my e-mail address
10 on my UNC account and --
14:46:00 11 Q. Dr. Zerden, I'm sorry to interrupt.
14:46:02 12 A. No.
14:46:02 13 Q. Could you maybe explain to the Court what a blind
14 cc is?
14:46:06 15 A. Sure. A "blind cc" stands for blind carbon copy.
16 It's a way to put e-mail recipients onto an e-mail thread
17 without seeing their e-mail address. So it sort of sends
18 privately, and you can't see who the other recipients are.
14:46:23 19 Q. And this particular e-mail, was there anything
20 about it that you found to be harassing?
14:46:31 21 A. Sure. It -- this e-mail starts with that
22 antitranny.org stamp again. And, you know, we have used
23 AntiTranny several times in this trial; and, again, "tranny"
24 is a very pejorative, disrespectful term to use for someone
25 who identifies a transgender. And so that in and of itself

263
1 is offensive.
14:46:54 2 It's a very long e-mail. On the second page,
3 there was some commentary. It says:
14:47:02 4 [as read] I hope to use whatever connections I
5 have with the Trump family to the benefit of our
6 state and nation. I'm -- I'm interested in
7 foreign affairs, considering pursuing an
8 ambassadorial appointment to the Kingdom of
9 Morocco.
14:47:18 10 There seemed to be some delusional grandeur going
11 on. Towards the very end of this e-mail, there seemed to be
12 a very violent and militaristic tone to this. For example,
13 he says:
14:47:33 14 [as read] They wanna fight, and I think we could
15 just bypass the media and create a white hot fire
16 in the voters. Regretfully, this may manifest
17 itself in pizzagate, typical actions by loons. I
18 can't control people. Religion is a powerful
19 force. Yet, if LBGT activists turn up the heat in
20 North Carolina with the boycott and repeal of HB2,
21 I'm going to respond with a nuclear option that
22 will hit like an explosion.
14:48:03 23 Q. Okay. Dr. Zerden, if I could direct your
24 attention further on through this e-mail, is there an
25 indicator that Napier Fuller sent this e-mail?

264
14:48:17 1 A. Yes. Right before his name stamp, there is also a
2 passage about how immoral and demonic I am and that I will
3 be going to hell. And at the very end of this e-mail, there
4 is this little box that says:
14:48:33 5 [as read] Napier S. Fuller. Napier@alum.mit.edu.
6 Lynwood Drive address, Wilmington, and the same
7 indicators from the other previous e-mails.
14:48:45 8 Q. And did Mr. Fuller include a cyberstalking statute
9 in this e-mail?
14:48:52 10 A. Yes. He put the legalese and the definition of
11 that at the very end of his name and address.
14:49:01 12 Q. Okay. If I could turn your attention to e-mail
13 number 5?
14:49:11 14 A. Sure. E-mail 5 was received January 17th at
15 2:46 p.m.
14:49:16 16 Q. Okay. And who was the sender of this e-mail?
14:49:20 17 A. It was sent from Napier S. Fuller, and there was a
18 new e-mail address used called provo -- P-R-O-V-O -- care,
19 C-A-R-E. Provocare@gmail.com. It was sent directly to me.
14:49:38 20 Q. What was the subject line in this e-mail?
14:49:41 21 A. There is a Latin phrase, and in translation it
22 says:
14:49:44 23 [as read] To be rather than to seem, equal sign,
24 a total rejection of transgenderism and supports
25 HB2.

265
14:49:58 1 Q. And is there anything in this particular e-mail
2 that you found to be harassing?
14:50:04 3 A. There was a -- this picture. I don't know what
4 that was supposed to be, but there was a very graphic
5 picture. He talked about a leading psychiatrist that
6 described transgender castration surgery like offering
7 liposuction to an anorexic. This e-mail talks about the
8 morally licit for minors to undergo transgender reassignment
9 surgeries. He gives some statistics about transgender HB2
10 bathroom bill language. And at the very end of this e-mail,
11 it has a little sentence that says:
14:50:48 12 [as read] Sent by Napier S. Fuller, the Lynwood
13 Drive, Wilmington, address and AntiTranny
14 Political Action Committee at the end.
14:50:59 15 Q. Thank you. If I could turn your attention now to
16 e-mail number 6, when was this received?
14:51:04 17 A. This was received that same day, the 17th, at
18 8:32 p.m.
14:51:14 20 A. This was a new e-mail address. It was AntiTranny
21 and the e-mail address reads political, P-O-L-I-T-I-C-A-L,
22 _outreach@antitranny.org. And it was sent to
23 SSW_ethics@unc.edu. Again, you don't see my UNC e-mail
24 address, but I opened this on my UNC e-mail account on my
25 office -- in my office. And it was a blind cc. That's why

266
1 my name is not there. The title is:
14:51:53 2 [as read] UNC SSW Ethics 101. Can a minor ward
3 of the state be castrated via social worker's
4 order?
14:52:02 5 Q. And, Dr. Zerden, is there anything in this
6 particular e-mail that you found to be harassing?
14:52:07 7 A. This e-mail contained video links of children who
8 were transgender. And it just talks about the videos and,
9 again, offering liposuction to anorexic and how morally
10 wrong this is. It talks about this disorder
11 characterization of sexual fantasies, sexual urges.
14:52:31 12 Q. Okay. And is there anything in this particular
13 e-mail that indicates it was sent from Mr. Fuller?
14:52:45 14 A. It has antitranny.org website, the Twitter handle
15 AntiTranny, the Facebook page antitranny.org, and the
16 Political Action Committee AntiTranny, again, in line with
17 everything that we have seen in the other e-mails up until
18 this one.
14:53:04 19 Q. Thank you.
14:53:07 20 A. The last page of this e-mail talked -- it had that
21 visual image again, and it talked about Satan's deception
22 exposed. Again, very moralistic and negative language
23 around anyone who would identify as transgender.
14:53:22 24 Q. Okay. Thank you. If I could turn your attention
25 to e-mail number 7, when was this received?

267
14:53:30 1 A. This was received that same day, so this was the
2 third e-mail on the 17th, at 8:59 p.m.
14:53:37 3 Q. And who was this e-mail sent from?
14:53:43 4 A. It was sent from antitranny.org,
5 political_outreach@antitranny.org sent directly to my
6 lzerden e-mail address. And the subject says: Professor
7 Zerden: Why do you publicly ridicule the church's teaching
8 along with your SSW colleagues?
14:54:09 9 Q. Dr. Zerden, have you ever publically ridiculed a
10 church's teachings?
14:54:15 11 A. No.
14:54:16 12 Q. Was there anything about this particular e-mail
13 that you found harassing?
14:54:20 14 A. Well, I don't ridicule public church's teachings.
15 We are a state institution; and there is a separation of
16 church and state, so it would be woefully inappropriate for
17 me to do that. There was also mention that the School of
18 Social Work, myself and my faculty, have embraced demonic
19 pagan sexuality. I don't even know what that is, but we
20 don't -- we don't support that. We wouldn't talk about
21 that.
14:54:47 22 Q. Okay.
14:54:48 23 A. There was more religious zealotry in this e-mail,
24 message from a conservative cardinal. It has really nothing
25 to do with the business of the School of Social Work or the

268
1 practice or education of social work practitioners so it was
2 really bizarre.
14:55:07 3 Q. Okay.
14:55:08 4 A. And the e-mail kind of just continued with more of
5 these images and communications.
7 e-mail number 8, when was this received?
14:55:21 8 A. This was received just a few hours later on the
9 18th of January at 1:32 a.m.
14:55:30 11 A. This was from antitranny.org,
12 political_outreach@antitranny.org.
14:55:38 13 Q. Did you receive this e-mail in your in box?
14:55:40 14 A. I received this e-mail in my inbox. Again, I must
15 have been bcc-ed or blind carbon copied because you do not
16 see my e-mail address; but I received the message. The "to"
17 sentence -- "to" recipient was Laurie Selz-Campbell, who is
18 a faculty member at the School of Social Work who has
19 received close to 50 e-mails from Mr. Fuller.
14:56:02 20 MR. FULLER: I -- I object. I --
14:56:03 21 THE COURT: Sustained. Motion to strike is
22 allowed.
14:56:05 23 Ladies and gentlemen, disregard the last statement
24 of the witness. Go ahead.
14:56:10 25 Q. Dr. Zerden, is there anything about this e-mail

269
1 that's written within this e-mail that you found to be
2 harassing?
14:56:16 3 A. Yes. The subject is:
14:56:18 4 [as read] Exorcising the demons from Processor
5 Selz-Campbell's soul. Need the cooperation from
6 UNC SSW faithful.
14:56:28 7 There was an importance flag, which means that it
8 flags up as red on my inbox. The message says:
14:56:34 9 [as read] Let us pray that the holy and pure
10 example of the life of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth
11 of Russia may help Professor Selz-Campbell to be
12 released from Satan's grasp.
14:56:46 13 It was filled with strong, hateful messaging about
14 a very respected and beloved colleague.
16 e-mail number 9, when was this one received?
14:57:10 17 A. E-mail number 9 was received January 18th, just a
18 few hours later, at 3:40 a.m.
14:57:17 19 Q. Okay. And who was this sent from?
14:57:20 20 A. This was -- excuse me?
14:57:23 21 Q. Who was this sent from? Which e-mail address was
22 this e-mail sent from?
14:57:26 23 A. This was sent from antitranny.org,
24 political_outreach@antitranny.org. And the "to" recipient
25 is diesel_dykes@unc.edu. Again, I was blind cc-ed on this

270
1 message. It came directly to my e-mail inbox. And somehow
2 I think he creates these e-mail addresses which lumps
3 several faculty, students, and staff to receive these
4 messages.
14:57:55 5 Q. And what is the subject of this e-mail?
14:57:56 6 A. The subject of this e-mail is:
14:57:58 7 [as read] Number 1 site to debunk the lies of
8 protrany academics who are under diabolical
9 control. The empire strikes back, with that
10 importance red flag again.
14:58:11 11 Q. Okay. Was there anything about this e-mail that
12 you found to be particularly harassing?
14:58:17 13 A. Yes. This e-mail says:
14:58:20 14 [as read] Transgenderism, a documented mental
15 disorder.
14:58:24 16 There is an image of someone with a noose around
17 their neck. I think that it was in some ways supposed to be
18 an indication of the suicide rate for people who are
19 disrespected and experience stigma and shame.
14:58:42 20 But on the other hand, that image is very
21 threatening to me. I find it very disturbing. In the
22 southern context, a noose is used to represent violence,
23 power, intimidation. And to me, I found that image very
24 disturbing, particularly in light of the tone and tenor of
25 the e-mails I had been receiving from Mr. Fuller.

271
14:59:04 1 Q. Okay. And if I could turn your attention now to
2 e-mail number 10, when was this e-mail received?
14:59:14 3 A. This was received January 24th, 2017, at 7:03 p.m.
14:59:20 4 Q. And which e-mail address was this e-mail sent
5 from?
14:59:24 6 A. This was -- excuse me -- this was send from
7 antitranny.org, political_outreach@antitranny.org. And
8 there was several "to" recipients. The subject said:
14:59:39 9 [as read] Exposing Progressive/Liberals
10 Sterility. Can't breed. Caught in a demographic
11 death spiral. Future is ours.
14:59:49 12 Q. Did you receive this e-mail in your personal -- or
13 in your work inbox?
14:59:54 14 A. Yes, I did.
14:59:55 15 Q. Was there anything about this e-mail that you
16 found to be harassing?
14:59:59 17 A. This e-mail was graphic and had detail about male
18 and female sexual organs and copulation and intercourse.
19 There is a list of different sexual positions, different
20 things that relates to sexual intercourse; talking in
21 number 4, for example, about same sex masturbation, addicted
22 couples, aka gays; talking about same sex masturbation.
23 It's just very sexually graphic. Number 9, for example,
24 talks about what a penis is designed for, for insertion into
25 the vagina. They talk about a gay bottom or a receptive

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1 anal, a top penetrative anal.
15:00:50 2 Again, these e-mails have nothing to do with the
3 educational mission, our teaching and research focus at the
4 School of Social Work. I think they are sexually very
5 explicit. They are inappropriate. They are unsolicited.
6 And towards the end of this e-mail, they talk about
7 reparative therapy, which is such a toxic, nonevidence-based
8 supported treatment modality, which has been so harmful and
9 disregarded by every established medical and psychological
10 establishment that as a -- as a group of mental health
11 providers, as the largest behavioral health providing
12 workforce, to social work, this is just very offensive
13 and -- and it's just -- it's nonsense and it's a sham.
15:01:37 14 The rest of this e-mail includes links about how
15 semen is good for a woman's health. You can image how
16 ridiculous and offensive this is. How birth control pills
17 can cause depression.
15:01:51 18 And then finally, he sent me these ridiculous
19 pornographic pictures of cartoon images of how penises
20 should be inserted into vaginas; again, having absolutely
21 nothing to do with the business, the research, the mission,
22 or teaching of anything that happens at the School of Social
23 Work.
15:02:13 24 Q. Thank you.
15:02:13 25 If I could turn your attention now to e-mail

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1 number 11, when was this e-mail received?
15:02:19 2 A. This e-mail was received January 27th at
3 11:01 a.m.
15:02:25 4 Q. And, Dr. Zerden, who was this e-mail from?
15:02:30 5 A. This was a new e-mail address I hadn't seen
6 before. It was Sexual Morality PAC, and the e-mail address
7 was Xmorals -- M-O-R-A-L-S -- @yahoo.com. And the "to"
8 recipient was complaint@ncdoj.gov. And the subject was:
15:02:55 9 [as read] AntiTranny strikes back. Counterclaim
10 to LGBT cyberstalking claims by UNC police.
15:03:02 11 Q. Okay. And did you receive this e-mail in your
12 work inbox?
15:03:06 13 A. Yes, I did. I received this. And I believe it
14 came after the cease and desist order had been issued, and
15 that's why I think this particular e-mail is filled with a
16 lot of legalese and jargon related to -- to the statute.
17 There is a message to the police chief at UNC Police
18 Department, Chief McCracken; and there is also that
19 antitranny.org stamp that has been present in all of the
20 other e-mails. This e-mail is signed:
15:03:37 21 [as read] Sincerely yours, Napier Sandford
22 Fuller, the Lynwood Drive address in Wilmington,
23 napier@alum.mit.edu.
15:03:50 24 Q. And if I could turn your attention to the next
25 page. Do you see a notice to immediately cease and desist?

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15:03:59 1 A. Yes, sir.
15:04:00 2 Q. Was that contained within the e-mail?
15:04:02 3 A. Yes, it was.
15:04:03 4 Q. And that was e-mailed to your inbox?
15:04:06 5 A. Yes, it was part of this long e-mail thread.
15:04:09 6 Q. Okay. And does it say who that cease and desist
7 was sent to?
15:04:16 8 A. Yes. It was sent to Napier S. Fuller, Lynnwood
9 Drive, Wilmington. It used several of his e-mail addresses,
10 napier@alum.mit.edu.
15:04:28 11 MR. FULLER: I'm going to have to object for
12 hearsay.
15:04:30 13 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
15:04:32 14 THE WITNESS: Antitrannypac@gmail,
15 provocare@gmail, political_outreach@antitranny, and it was
16 addressed to Dear Mr. Fuller. And it was signed by
17 Investigator Ross Barbee, as he mentioned earlier this
18 morning.
15:04:48 19 Q. Thank you.
15:05:02 20 Is there anything else in this e-mail that you
21 found to be particularly harassing?
15:05:13 22 A. On page 6 of this e-mail, he talks about:
15:05:17 23 [as read] Don't act like a victim of LGBT bias.
24 Spare me the crying your eyes out bullshit. MIT
25 is the number 1 university in the world. We don't

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1 accept the fraud of gender queer studies as being
2 legit as it's just paganism re-branded. Last time
3 I checked, UNC was not listed in the top 25
4 national universities.
15:05:41 5 Our School of Social Work is actually regarded as
6 the number 1 School of Social Work in the southeast. It's
7 the third most highly regarded School of Social Work among
8 public institutions, and it's ranked number 5 in the nation.
9 We take our role and stature quite seriously. It was
10 offensive and, again, talks about transgender ideology as
11 Satan's deception. The very end of this e-mail, it says:
15:06:07 12 [as read] Sent by Napier S. Fuller, Lynnwood
13 Drive, Wilmington, North Carolina, AntiTranny
14 Political Action Committee.
15:06:17 15 Q. Thank you.
15:06:18 16 And --
15:06:26 17 A. This e-mail -- I'm just going through the pages
18 right now --
15:06:29 19 Q. Yes.
15:06:30 20 A. -- but also -- this e-mail also had this very
21 graphic image of a person with large breasts strangulating
22 themselves. It was very bizarre. It was violent. It was
23 inappropriate. It was pornographic. And, again, Mr. Fuller
24 had received the cease and desist, so you can see that there
25 was no consequence to the cease and desist request and that

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1 I was still receiving these e-mails and have still been the
2 victim of many of his communications.
15:07:01 3 Q. And, Dr. Zerden, were there things in this e-mail
4 that had been repeated from previous e-mails?
15:07:08 5 A. Yes. There were.
15:07:11 6 Q. And what were some of those things? I know there
7 are many.
15:07:14 8 A. Sure. Let me just flip to the beginning.
15:07:21 9 There was similar news clippings about stories
10 that I had seen in previous e-mail addresses. There was
11 similar references to different religious personnel in the
12 Catholic Church. There was (sic) stories about Mr. Fuller
13 himself from the News and Observer, which I had seen. There
14 was that image Transgenderism, a Documented Mental Disorder.
15 And then many of these different logos from Johns Hopkins
16 School of Medicine that came before this image. There was
17 the antitranny.org stop -- stamp again.
15:08:05 18 This e-mail just kind of continues with some of
19 the same very sexually explicit language around sexual
20 intercourse and male/female parts and also how they are
21 supposed to be used for copulation. There was more graphic
22 language and depictions of sexual intercourse, including
23 those cartoon images that we had seen before in the earlier
24 e-mail. And, again, there were those links, those
25 disturbing and ridiculous links talking about how semen is

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1 good for women's health and how the birth control pill
2 causes depression and makes women more likely to become
3 diesel dykes.
15:08:57 4 Q. Dr. Zerden, if I can turn your attention now to
5 e-mail number 12, when was this e-mail received?
15:09:05 6 A. This was received January 30th at 2:23 p.m.
15:09:09 7 Q. Okay.
15:09:10 8 A. It was from Napier S. Fuller.
9 Napier.Fuller@gmail.com, and it was sent to a whole list of
10 people including Detective Barbee, who we've heard from; the
11 head of university counsel; Dr. Phoenix; myself; and several
12 other people from the University.
15:09:35 13 Q. Did you receive this e-mail in your work inbox?
15:09:38 14 A. Yes, I did.
15:09:39 15 Q. Okay.
15:09:40 16 A. I'm listed as one of the carbon copies, so this
17 time I can see my e-mail address here, including several
18 other faculty from the School of Social Work.
15:09:51 19 Q. Okay. And was there anything about this
20 particular e-mail that you found harassing?
15:09:58 21 A. Yes. The subject of this is:
15:10:04 22 [as read] Respondent's Counterclaim to UNC Police
23 re: LGBT harassment claim against a Roman
24 Catholic teacher of sexual ethics.
15:10:17 25 He says we are -- he sends us a link about:

278
15:10:21 1 [as read] Liberal hysterics, blood curdling
2 anti-LGBT laws passed at the North Carolina
3 General Assembly.
15:10:30 4 And it sort of continues like that.
15:10:35 5 Q. I want to turn your attention now to MailChimp.
6 You mentioned that earlier in your testimony.
15:10:42 7 A. Uh-huh.
15:10:43 8 Q. Could you just describe to the Court what
9 MailChimp is?
15:10:47 10 A. Sure. MailChimp is an e-mail listserv, a
11 distribution company where you can create e-mail lists of
12 people to receive communications. So rather than having to
13 type in each individual e-mail address one by one, you can
14 pay MailChimp to create a listserv for you.
15:11:08 15 Q. And you testified that you received a few e-mails
16 through a MailChimp listserv?
15:11:14 17 A. Right. We could -- we could see that they were
18 from MailChimp because there was a very specific logo for
19 MailChimp. And --
15:11:24 20 (Sneeze.)
15:11:25 21 A. Bless you.
15:11:25 22 Because these were coming not just to myself but
23 to our students, who were very disturbed by these messages,
24 to our faculty and staff, who did not like these messages, I
25 e-mailed the MailChimp administrators. I explained my role

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1 as the Senior Associate Dean and why I was asking for this
2 account to be shut down. No one in the School of Social
3 Work signed up for Mr. Fuller's e-mails. No one wanted
4 them. And every time he would try to be blocked, his e-mail
5 address would be changed. And so I e-mailed MailChimp
6 directly to protect our students, the faculty I supervise,
7 and our staff because we did not want to receive these
8 harassing e-mails.
15:12:03 9 Q. And if I could turn your attention to e-mail
10 number 13, is this the e-mail to MailChimp you just
11 testified to?
15:12:21 12 A. Let me just find the label for 13.
15:12:31 13 Oh. Right. So e-mail 13, at the very end, you
14 can -- I looked online. I found out where to find
15 MailChimp's help desk, and so I e-mailed them directly. I
16 introduced myself and my role at the School of Social Work,
17 and I asked that the faculty be protected from these e-mails
18 and that they were inappropriate, they were unwanted, and we
19 wanted this e-mail account shut down.
15:13:01 20 I will also just like to say that the reason I was
21 doing this is because of my role at the School of Social
22 Work. I am the second highest position at the School of
23 Social Work. Between Mr. Fuller's first e-mails and now, we
24 have had a dean change, an overall school dean change; but
25 because I was present throughout, I have been the main point

280
1 of contact because of my administrative responsibility.
15:13:24 2 Q. Thank you. Dr. Zerden, I want to draw your
3 attention to this e-mail 13. What date did you send this
4 abuse report in on?
15:13:37 5 A. Wednesday, December 28th, 2016.
15:13:41 6 Q. Okay.
15:13:41 7 A. It was the very next day from the first
8 communication we received from him, I believe.
15:13:48 9 Q. And you received multiple e-mails after this abuse
10 report was filed?
15:13:53 12 Q. Through varying e-mail addresses?
15:13:56 13 A. That is correct. And despite a cease and desist
14 order for Mr. Fuller, he has continued to write about me on
15 his Facebook page. He has put my picture, my spouse's
16 picture, on his Facebook page. He has put recordings of my
17 voice on his Facebook page.
15:14:10 18 MR. FULLER: I'm going to object due to lack of
19 foundation. None of this has been introduced as evidence.
15:14:15 20 THE COURT: Sustained.
15:14:15 21 Ma'am, only answer the questions you are asked.
15:14:17 22 Ladies and gentlemen, disregard the witness's
23 testimony about Facebook.
15:14:20 24 BY MR. COURLANG
15:14:21 25 Q. Yeah. Dr. Zerden, did you ever respond to any of

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1 these e-mails?
15:14:25 2 A. I personally did not, because, in my
3 responsibilities, I had to see what was being sent. But
4 several faculty, staff, and students did block him and put
5 him in a -- a folder so they would not have to see these
6 e-mails.
15:14:41 7 Q. Did you know Mr. Fuller prior to receiving these
8 e-mails?
15:14:44 9 A. I had never seen, met, or known about Mr. Fuller
10 before these e-mails.
15:14:48 11 Q. Okay. You had no contact with Mr. Fuller before
12 these e-mails?
15:14:52 13 A. Absolutely none whatsoever.
15:14:57 14 Q. These e-mails were sent to your work e-mail?
15:15:00 16 Q. And where is your office located?
15:15:02 17 A. My office is located at the Tate-Turner-Kuralt
18 Building, which is the School of Social Work. It's on
19 Pittsboro Street.
15:15:10 20 Q. That's on UNC's campus?
15:15:12 21 A. On UNC's campus in Chapel Hill.
15:15:14 22 Q. Which county is that in?
15:15:16 23 A. Orange County.
15:15:16 24 Q. Orange County. And in your office, do you have a
25 computer set up there?

282
15:15:22 1 A. Yes.
15:15:23 2 Q. Where do you receive your e-mails to, your work
3 e-mails?
15:15:26 4 A. I receive my worked e-mails at my office on the
5 third floor at the School of Social Work on UNC's campus.
6 My e-mails also come to my iPhone. Because of my
7 responsibilities at the School of Social Work, I am on
8 e-mail a lot and constantly checking my e-mail even late
9 into the night and early morning because faculty that I
10 supervise and the students we oversee are my responsibility.
15:15:52 11 Q. Okay.
15:16:07 12 MR. COURLANG: If I could just have a minute, Your
13 Honor.
15:16:21 18 Q. Dr. Zerden, e-mails that are sent to your work
19 e-mail address, where are they originally received, if that
20 makes sense?
15:16:33 21 A. I guess the UNC servers. I don't know how that
22 works specifically. It's managed through UNC e-mail entity.
23 I don't know how that works.
15:16:43 24 Q. Sure. And you said you can view your e-mails on
25 your phone as well?

283
15:16:49 1 A. That's correct.
15:16:49 2 Q. Okay. Of these e-mails that were sent, are you
3 aware of any that you first have viewed maybe outside of
4 Orange County?
15:17:03 5 A. I believe the first one I did because it was
6 winter break and I wasn't on campus.
15:17:08 7 Q. Okay. Were there any other ones possible?
15:17:15 8 A. No. I was in town and on campus when the other
9 ones were received.
15:17:20 10 Q. Okay. Thank you.
15:17:40 11 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, if I could just have
12 one minute?
15:18:01 16 MR. COURLANG: Just a few more questions for
17 Dr. Zerden.
15:18:04 20 Q. Just to wrap up for -- for the Court, for the
21 jury, you received how many e-mails between December 27th,
22 2016, and January 30th, 2017?
15:18:20 23 A. Twelve e-mails during that period.
15:18:22 24 Q. Did you receive any -- did you receive multiple
25 e-mails within the course of one day at any point?

284
15:18:29 1 A. Yes, I did.
15:18:29 2 Q. Okay.
15:18:34 3 MR. COURLANG: Nothing further, Your Honor.
15:18:35 4 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we
5 are going to take our afternoon recess at this time.
6 Remember the rules. Keep an open mind. You haven't heard
7 it all. Don't be forming any opinions about the case.
8 Don't have any communication with anybody, including each
9 other. Stay off the Internet. Remember the rest of the
10 rules. Be back outside ready to proceed in 15 minutes.
11 That will be 3:35.
13 courtroom.
16 the jury.)
15:19:46 17 THE COURT: Okay. The jury is absent. If anybody
18 has got anything for me before we resume, I will hear it at
19 3:35. We are in recess.
15:35:00 25 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Let the record

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DISCUSS FULLER PROPOSED EVIDENCE/FULLER
1 reflect that Mr. Fuller is present --
15:35:04 2 BAILIFF COLLINS: Ladies and gentlemen, be seated
3 and come to order.
15:35:06 4 THE COURT: -- the State is present. The jury is
5 absent.
15:35:08 6 Anything for the State before we bring the jury
7 back?
15:35:14 13 MR. FULLER: Just to give you a little outline so
14 you know what's going to happen.
15:35:20 16 MR. FULLER: I'm kind of getting really tired
17 today, so I'm probably going to just do a little more with
18 Zerden's -- kind of some general background stuff. But
19 tomorrow I will have a rebuttal document that -- I want to
20 create the full copies -- that's going to show her actual
21 words through time so we are going to create a timeline
22 that's going to show a lot of different adjectives she used
23 to describe these events as we progress over time.
15:35:48 24 Another thing that I will be showing -- and this
25 is something that I wanted to ask the judge about in

286
1 advance --
15:35:55 3 MR. FULLER: -- because I don't want to entrap
4 people. But I am a pretty sophisticated, you know, guy and
5 have intellectual property in what is called --
15:36:07 6 THE COURT REPORTER: What is called what?
15:36:07 7 MR. FULLER: -- choice theory.
15:36:09 9 MR. FULLER: And in artificial intelligence. And
10 so in a way what I was doing was tracking certain impetuses.
11 And the responses are -- I think you are just going to be --
12 fall off the wall in how many times people open these
13 e-mails. And I have documents that show how many times.
14 And I would just sort of aver that, if you didn't like
15 something, why do you keep opening it? And -- so I just
16 wanted to -- I don't want to entrap, you know, someone.
15:36:41 18 MR. FULLER: I mean, do I have to tell them that?
19 But I wanted to ask them: How many times do you think you
20 have opened it? And then I'm going to tell them the truth,
21 and I think there -- there is going to be a big thing there.
15:36:50 22 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, the sort of conceptual
23 problem I'm having with this is that that line of
24 questioning doesn't go to an issue in this case because it
25 doesn't matter whether the person was actually -- felt

287
1 harassed or felt intimidated or felt annoyed. What matters
2 is what your intention was in sending the e-mails. So the
3 number of times that they opened it or the number of times
4 that they forwarded it, I'm not sure how that goes to the
5 issue; but I will hear what you have to say about that.
15:37:22 6 MR. FULLER: Yes. You are exactly right as a
7 point of law. I just want the record to reflect -- and I
8 think it's important -- and I, you know, have read a lot of
9 case law. When you have these emotional things, it comes
10 out once. But then you get the timeline of adjectives, and
11 you are going to find that it's completely different.
15:37:42 12 But -- but you bring up a good point; and if we do
13 want to move into the motion to dismiss -- I think that's
14 what you are getting at -- I'm --
15:37:48 15 THE COURT: Well, no. We need to wait until the
16 State rests to do that.
15:37:52 18 THE COURT: But keep in mind that ordinarily the
19 way that we show a person's intent in the criminal courts of
20 North Carolina is through the circumstances through which a
21 person's intent might be inferred. And the question is
22 going to be whether there is sufficient evidence based on
23 all of the circumstances from which a reasonable jury could
24 find that your intent was to annoy or harass rather than to
25 educate or to engage in First Amendment protected speech.

288
1 That -- that's the issue for the jury.
15:38:28 2 And it's hard for the State to prove what your
3 intent was, but they -- they are allowed to present the
4 relevant circumstances surrounding your actions to try to
5 convince the jury what your intent was, and so are you. I
6 mean, the circumstances of this case could be argued either
7 way as to what your intent was; and, ultimately, it's going
8 to be 12 people's decision what your intent was. That's
9 what they are for is to find that fact. That's not my job.
10 All right.
15:38:58 11 MR. FULLER: It -- that is an excellent point.
12 And I want that to be made clear to the jury, that it's not
13 the recipient's emotional state, it's the sender's.
15:39:09 14 THE COURT: I will make that very clear to the
15 jury.
15:39:10 16 MR. FULLER: And on this point, before I go into
17 avenues that are unwelcome -- because I think this is a good
18 conversation -- I have done a whole lot of research on this
19 case. And I don't know whether it's -- I think it's
20 certainly relevant, sort of, the angry tone. But we do have
21 the School of Social Work, like, blog site that -- that
22 Mrs. Zerden is on. Anyway, they have fundraisings for
23 bowling for abortions and all this stuff that just drives
24 Catholics into -- it makes our blood boil. And her husband
25 is the director of Planned Parenthood, and he is constantly

289
1 involved in litigation.
15:39:48 2 And I was wondering if that -- it certainly is one
3 of the things that, as far as my intention, being aware of
4 all of that, I don't know how that's particularly relevant;
5 but I -- I do think certainly that there has been a lot of
6 attacks on the Catholic Church in the blog -- in the School
7 of Social Work blog. I mean, it's just -- to us, we just
8 find this outrageous that students would -- would have a
9 bowling for abortions fundraiser.
15:40:19 10 THE COURT: Keep in mind as you go forward that
11 that may or may not give the State an argument that since
12 your blood was boiling that you were more inclined to harass
13 or annoy these people. So that's a double-edged sword.
15:40:34 14 MR. FULLER: Right. Right.
15:40:35 15 THE COURT: I just want to make sure you
16 understand that going forward.
15:40:38 17 MR. FULLER: Sure. Sure. And I am also going to
18 get in this -- and this becomes another sort of complex
19 issue since, reading her biography, she is very good at
20 mental illnesses and all of this. It is the law of the
21 country or the USDOJ that mental illness has to be taken
22 into account in these circumstances in whether to bring
23 charges. And that becomes an issue is if -- is she or -- is
24 her response, when she finds out that I suffer from mental
25 illness, different? Because you do have things like what's

290
1 called Emotional Dysregulation that's having these little
2 flash points.
15:41:18 3 Is there a way I can bring that in? I think it
4 certainly appears from the USDOJ, they say that it should
5 be relevant for everything from charging and considering
6 charges all the way through the criminal justice system.
7 And it certainly is relevant to intent.
15:41:32 8 But my question is is: How do I get that into
9 evidence, specifically when the Grotsky -- I -- I don't
10 know -- I don't understand if the Grotsky stuff -- since
11 the State has already found that, kind of -- but it's a
12 sealed document. It was sealed for my privacy actually.
15:41:56 13 THE COURT: Ummm. I'm going to decide that you
14 have now asked me to give you advice, and I'm not going to
15 do that.
15:42:11 17 THE COURT: If you propound evidence and the State
18 objects, I will rule. Okay?
15:42:16 19 MR. FULLER: Okay. Great. But for today, I was
20 just going to hope to do a little bit, then maybe we can
21 take an early recess.
15:42:21 22 THE COURT: That is fine with me.
15:42:23 23 MR. FULLER: And I can be all fresh tomorrow.
15:42:24 24 THE COURT: You let me know when you are ready to
25 stop, and we will stop.

291
CROSS OF LISA DE SAXE ZERDEN BY MR. FULLER
15:42:27 1 All right. Bring the jury back, please. And
2 detective -- detective -- Dr. Zerden, would you come on
3 back up to the witness stand please.
15:42:37 4 (The witness returned to the witness stand.)
15:42:56 5 THE COURT: Bring the jury in please.
8 of the jury.)
10 are present in the jury box. Dr. Zerden is still on the
11 witness stand. She is still under oath and is now on
12 cross-examination.
15:44:54 13 Mr. Fuller.
15:44:58 15 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Zerden. That was a --
15:45:02 16 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you have to examine a
17 witness from a seated position. All right?
15:45:06 18 MR. FULLER: Okay. I just --
15:45:07 20 MR. FULLER: -- move around a lot.
15:45:08 21 BY MR. FULLER:
15:45:08 22 Q. Anyway. Yeah. That was very -- that's was an
23 emotional high point here. I think we are all kind of
24 digesting that. We are going to be kind of brief today.
25 Just to give you an outline of what we are going to do, we

292
1 are going to have some kind of just general background and
2 ask you some questions about your background.
15:45:20 3 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object, Your Honor.
15:45:21 4 THE COURT: Ummm, ask questions, please.
5 Sustained.
15:45:24 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Is his mic' on? Is your mic'
8 on, sir?
15:45:24 10 Q. I'm going to start talking.
15:45:32 11 Okay. We are going to ask some background
12 questions, and tomorrow morning, you --
15:45:37 13 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, just ask your questions.
15:45:38 14 MR. FULLER: Okay. I would like to introduce
15 Defendant's Exhibit Number 2. I have already given a copy
16 to the ADA.
15:45:46 17 THE COURT: Any objection?
19 identification.)
15:45:48 20 MR. COURLANG: I have no objection, Your Honor.
15:45:49 21 THE COURT: All right. Let it be received without
22 objection.
24 evidence.)
15:45:54 25 MR. FULLER: Can I approach to give it to you and

293
1 the witness?
15:45:59 2 THE COURT: Give it to the sheriff, and he will
3 give it to the witness.
15:46:03 4 MR. FULLER: Okay. So it's a copy.
15:46:03 5 THE COURT: Yeah. And give one to me too please.
6 Thank you.
15:46:03 7 (Bailiff distributed copies to Judge and witness.)
15:46:03 8 MR. FULLER: And the origin of this comes from the
9 discovery or at least by the district attorney.
15:46:08 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15:46:08 11 BY MR. FULLER:
15:46:10 12 Q. Mrs. Zerden -- I'm sorry, Dr. Zerden, do you
13 recognize this document in front of you?
15:46:15 14 A. Yes, I do.
15:46:17 15 MR. FULLER: And -- and Judge, I forget. I have
16 to move or say some phrase to accept?
15:46:21 17 THE COURT: I have already accepted this into
18 evidence, so you can -- you can read from it or ask her to.
15:46:27 19 Q. Ms. Zerden, do you recognize --
15:46:29 20 A. You can call me Dr. Zerden.
15:46:30 21 Q. Okay. Dr. Zerden, do you recognize this?
15:46:35 22 A. I do.
15:46:36 23 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what this site is and just
24 tell us what's going on here. What -- what is this thing?
25 Give us some context.

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15:46:55 1 A. Yes. This is titled SoWoSO -- S-O-W-O-S-O -- UNC.
2 SoWoSO stands for Social Work Student Organization. This is
3 Google groups. It's a student group of the social work
4 student organization. It is a student-run and student-led
5 organization. And on December 27th, following that first
6 e-mail, I sent a message to the student group, and this is
7 what I said.
15:47:29 8 [as read] Dear students, I sincerely apologize
9 for the intrusion on your winter break but want to
10 be in touch regarding some concerning e-mails
11 currently being sent by Napier S. Fuller, Esq.,
12 regarding HB2, transgender mental health, and
13 similar topics. This individual has targeted some
14 SSW faculty, and we are in the process of working
15 with university counsel to determine the best
16 course of action.
15:47:59 17 While disturbing and insulting, I encourage you to
18 please not respond and instead send anything you
19 receive directly to me so that I can keep a record
20 of his communication. Thank you very much.
21 Wishing you all a peaceful rest of your winter
22 break and much needed peace, civility, and calm in
23 the new year. Take good care, Lisa de Saxe
24 Zerden -- Lisa de Saxe Zerden, MSW, Ph.D., Senior
25 Associate Dean for the MSW Education.

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15:48:30 1 Q. Thank you, Dr. Zerden.
15:48:35 2 Is it true that in this e-mail you refer to this
3 first contact -- and I quote -- as "concerning e-mails."
4 Is -- is that your adjective initially?
15:48:52 5 A. That is what I wrote.
15:48:54 6 Q. Okay. Is it true or false that this e-mail, by
7 you as a senior dean, basically states that the school's
8 official position is that Mr. Fuller's views are not
9 welcome?
15:49:18 10 A. I read the message.
15:49:20 11 Q. Is it a true or false statement that you have said
12 in this e-mail, as your official position of dean to all the
13 students, that Mr. Fuller's views are, as you say,
14 "disturbing"?
15:49:39 15 A. Correct. That is true.
15:49:41 16 Q. Okay. You also state, true or false, to:
15:49:48 17 [as read] Send anything you receive directly to
18 me so we can keep a record.
15:49:53 19 Is that true or false?
15:49:54 20 A. That is true.
15:49:58 21 Q. So I got to ask: If you were so upset and
22 harassed, why would you ask how many hundred people to then
23 send you more e-mails?
15:50:12 24 A. Mr. Fuller, I am not such a gentle snowflake that
25 I can't handle your communication. I am responsible for 300

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1 students. Because of my respect for their dignity and their
2 worth, they do not need to receive this kind of
3 communication over their winter break or during the academic
4 year. In order for me, as the senior associate dean --
15:50:32 5 Q. I'll be asking the questions here.
15:50:33 6 A. -- to deal with it --
15:50:33 7 Q. I'm the attorney -- I'm in the --
15:50:34 8 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you asked the question.
9 Let her finish her answer.
15:50:37 10 Go ahead.
15:50:39 11 THE WITNESS: So that our students, who are in my
12 purview and my responsibility, do not need to receive this
13 kind of communication or receive the harassing things that
14 you sent me personally, I was trying to shield them and have
15 them send it to me so that I could take care of it through
16 the proper university channels; and that is exactly what I
17 did.
15:50:57 18 Q. True or false -- just say "true" or "false" --
19 your testimony is thus reflective of what other people feel
20 based on your perception. Is that a true or false
21 statement?
15:51:16 22 A. I can't speak to what other people feel or think.
15:51:19 23 Q. I -- I believe you just did. I will ask the
24 question again.
15:51:23 25 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you may not argue with the

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1 witness. You may ask questions. Go ahead. It's against
2 the rules of evidence to argue with the witness.
15:51:34 5 Q. Let's talk for a moment about this S-O-W-O-S-O --
6 whatever it is -- the communication blog. Is it true or
7 false that there has been a -- here a bowling for abortions
8 fundraiser during your tenure? Is that a true or false
9 statement?
15:52:00 10 A. If the students organized it, then it might have
11 happened. It is a student-run, student-led organization. I
12 do not have access to this Wiki page or whatever it is.
15:52:08 13 Q. Is it a true or false statement? Just say "true"
14 or "false."
15:52:11 15 A. I have no idea. I don't access to it.
15:52:14 16 Q. True or false statement: You have not disciplined
17 the students for advertising bowling for abortions. You
18 took no action as the dean for those comments; true or
19 false?
15:52:30 20 A. I don't know what event you are talking about,
21 Mr. Fuller.
15:52:33 22 Q. True or false: You often post on the blog?
15:52:38 23 A. That is false. I don't have access to the blog.
24 If a student posts one of my communications to the blog,
25 then they post it.

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15:52:45 1 Q. Is it true or false? I'm asking true or false
2 statements. True or false: You just admitted under oath
3 that you wrote this on the blog. And now you said you don't
4 do it. True or false: You wrote this on the blog?
15:52:57 5 A. Mr. Fuller, it is from the --
15:52:59 6 Q. It's a true or false statement.
15:53:01 7 A. It is false. It is from me. And I sent it to
8 Kristan Rosenthal. Kristan Rosenthal at the time was a
9 student. She posted it to the blog. Kristan Rosenthal was
10 one of the student leaders, and she put it on the blog. I
11 have no access to this blog. I don't know how to find it.
12 I don't know how to put information on there. Kristan
13 Rosenthal put this message that I sent to communicate with
14 all of the students.
15:53:26 15 Q. Who is Kristan Rosenthal?
15:53:28 16 A. She is now a graduate of our program.
15:53:32 17 Q. Is she your assistant? I'm -- I'm just -- I'm
18 trying to understand.
15:53:37 19 A. She was a student leader. She was a student
20 leader that had access to this student-led, student-run
21 organization, SoWoSO, Social Work Student Organization.
22 That's what SoWoSO stands for. Kristan Rosenthal is a
23 former student who posted my message so other students could
24 see it.
15:53:52 25 Q. Okay. But true or false: You state -- or your

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1 language, however -- however, it winds up on this -- this
2 internal student affairs -- true or false: It states:
15:54:04 3 [as read] I encourage you not to respond, but to
4 instead send anything you receive directly to me
5 so we can keep a record of those communications.
15:54:13 6 MR. COURLANG: Objection, asked and answered.
15:54:14 7 THE COURT: Sustained. Move on to something else.
15:54:19 10 Q. Is it a true or false statement that you have
11 instructed the students not to simply unsubscribe to the
12 e-mail list? Is that a true or false statement?
15:54:40 13 A. Can you ask that again? I don't understand.
15:54:42 14 Q. Okay. True or false: Based upon a reasonable
15 person's understanding of -- of your introduction of how to
16 respond to Mr. Fuller to the entire student community --
17 it's a true or false statement -- you instruct them to send
18 anything directly to me, and you don't instruct them to
19 unsubscribe. Is that a true or false statement?
15:55:13 20 A. That's that double-barreled question. I told them
21 to send everything to me.
15:55:18 22 Q. Is it true or false that you have never told them
23 to unsubscribe to the e-mails?
15:55:26 24 A. In other e-mails I sent to our faculty and staff,
25 that was recommended; and we gave them links on how to do

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1 that. You just don't have those e-mails.
15:55:40 2 Q. Is it true or false that this SoWoSO has quite a
3 lot of content that is very political in nature? Is that a
4 true or false statement?
15:55:59 5 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to relevance,
6 Your Honor.
15:56:01 7 THE COURT: Sustained. Also sustained as to the
8 form of the question.
15:56:05 9 MR. FULLER: I'm getting confused. Does
10 "sustained" mean I lost or won?
15:56:09 11 THE COURT: That means you lost. Ask a different
12 question.
15:56:12 13 BY MR. FULLER:
15:56:13 14 Q. True or false: Out of all the faculty at the
15 School of Social Work, not one is a supporter of the
16 president. Is that a true or false statements?
15:56:27 17 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to that on
18 relevance as well, Your Honor.
15:56:34 20 Q. Let's -- I am going to ask you some questions
21 about your -- your background. You mentioned I believe you
22 went to Boston University. Is that true or false: You went
23 to Boston University?
15:56:45 24 A. That is true. I got my Ph.D. at Boston University
25 School of Social Work in Social Work and Sociology.

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15:56:50 1 Q. When I ask you true or false statements, can you
2 please just answer "true" or --
15:56:53 3 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Fuller, I'm going to let her
4 answer your question. But she is also allowed to explain
5 her answer if a true or false answer might not be
6 completely -- sometimes, based on the way you ask the
7 question, a true-or-false answer might not convey all the
8 information, so I'm going to let her explain if it needs
9 explaining. And I will decide if it needs explaining or
10 not. She is allowed to explain her answer to that question.
15:57:22 11 Go ahead.
15:57:23 12 Q. Is Boston University within the vicinity of the
13 Massachusetts Institute of Technology?
15:57:30 14 A. Yes, it is.
15:57:31 15 Q. Does -- from your knowledge, does the
16 Massachusetts Institute of Technology have a
17 cross-registration program for Boston University?
15:57:40 18 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object based on
19 relevance, Your Honor.
15:57:43 21 Q. Did your husband attend Harvard University?
15:57:46 22 MR. COURLANG: Objection, based on relevance.
15:57:50 24 MR. FULLER: I'm just trying to get at whether we
25 knew each other because I was at Harvard too.

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15:57:53 1 THE COURT: Well, then, why don't you just ask her
2 that?
15:57:57 3 MR. FULLER: I was trying to. Anyway, I don't
4 understand, but --
15:58:00 5 THE WITNESS: We didn't know each other. My
6 husband has never met Mr. Fuller either.
15:58:11 8 Q. Let's discuss your research.
15:58:13 9 A. Let's.
15:58:14 10 Q. You have done work in mental health; is that true
11 or false?
15:58:19 12 A. That is true.
15:58:21 13 Q. Are you familiar with the term "emotional
14 dysregulation"?
15:58:26 15 A. Yes, I am.
15:58:27 16 Q. Are you aware that the defendant in this case has
17 been diagnosed with a mental illness?
15:58:34 18 A. Yes, I am.
15:58:35 19 Q. Are you aware that the ADA Title II, as it applies
20 to the criminal justice system, must take into account
21 mental illness in every aspect including the decision to
22 charge and arrest and process and even consider interacting
23 in any way with the criminal justice system?
15:59:00 25 THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer that

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1 question --
15:59:04 2 A. Yes.
15:59:04 3 THE COURT: -- if you know.
15:59:06 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am aware of the ADA and of
5 mental health issues. And I will tell you as a profession,
6 social work does not take mental health lightly. We are
7 supporters, providers of people with mental health issues.
8 However, mental health diagnoses are not an excuse for
9 harassing or illegal behavior.
15:59:25 10 Q. Could -- since you are kind of an expert in that
11 field, let's talk about this a little further, Dr. Zerden,
12 since we have got an expert.
15:59:33 13 Can you just explain emotional dysregulation to
14 the jury? Explain what that means.
15:59:38 15 A. I am not a clinical licensed social worker, so I'm
16 not going to give you the definition based on the DSM, the
17 Diagnostic Statistical Manual. But there are other mental
18 health professionals who could give you a definition and who
19 do clinical work.
15:59:52 20 Q. Could you just give us -- you are smart person.
21 Just give us a from-the-hip definition.
16:00:00 22 A. Mr. Fuller, my research has focused on policy and
23 macro social work issues. I'm not a clinician.
16:00:14 24 Q. Can you tell us, your research, have you done
25 research in human sexuality? Have you published papers in

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1 prostitution?
16:00:24 2 A. Yes. I have published probably about 30
3 peer-reviewed articles. In order for a publication to be
4 received, it is read independently by two reviewers, blind
5 to me. It goes through a very rigorous process. If you
6 would like to read my papers, you can find them; but I don't
7 force my papers or my research onto anyone. I think that's
8 the difference between our communication.
16:00:55 9 Q. Is -- is -- would you describe any of your
10 conclusions in human sexuality in your papers -- do any of
11 them support the Roman Catholic teachings?
16:01:10 12 A. I'm not a theologian, and I don't speak about
13 religion in my line of research.
16:01:17 14 Q. I -- I would bet -- I -- perhaps I'm going to
15 begin it tomorrow, and we can discuss that a little bit
16 more.
16:01:24 17 But I wanted to ask you, your role there, you
18 basically -- I guess as a social worker, you tell people how
19 to live; is that correct? Or -- explain to us what social
20 work is. I get a little confused. What does it mean to be
21 a social worker?
16:01:38 22 A. That is completely incorrect. Social work is a
23 profession that gives people the tools and empowerment to
24 help themselves, and so we believe in the dignity and worth
25 of all individuals. Even if I disagree with someone's

305
1 choices or what they are doing, I'm going to help give them
2 the tools that they need, without judgments, to provide them
3 the resources to be more successful or live in more healthy
4 ways.
16:02:06 5 Social work has been around for about a hundred
6 years. There are clinical social workers who do mental
7 health, their therapeutic work with individuals. And then
8 there are other social workers who do more administration or
9 management so it's a very broad profession. You could have
10 a lot of different jobs with a master's in social work
11 degree.
16:02:24 12 Q. I want to ask you one question about bias. Are
13 you currently a party to a civil lawsuit with the defendant?
16:02:33 16 Are you?
16:02:35 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Mr. Fuller has filed a civil
18 claim for $9.7 million against me for the testimony that I
19 have made in our first trial where he was found guilty.
16:02:44 20 BY MR. FULLER:
16:02:46 21 Q. And since you mentioned that lawsuit, was that
22 complaint made under oath, verified? And has it been thrown
23 out or is it still a current lawsuit?
16:02:57 24 A. It is a current lawsuit. I just picked up my
25 subpoena yesterday before our trial started.

306
16:03:03 1 Q. And in that lawsuit, does it aver perjury under
2 oath?
16:03:11 3 A. I don't have the lawsuit in front of me, but you
4 can image my shock and dismay and upset to testify in a
5 court of law under oath because of my administrative duties
6 and now I'm being slammed with a $9.75 million lawsuit from
7 this individual.
16:03:27 8 Q. Sure. And when we talk about -- I don't want to
9 get into -- to that lawsuit. I don't think it's the
10 purpose --
16:03:32 11 A. You brought it up.
16:03:32 12 Q. -- of this case at all. But since you mentioned
13 it --
16:03:39 14 A. Mr. Fuller, you -- you mentioned it. You brought
15 it up.
16:03:45 16 Q. And -- and there -- there are two plaintiffs to
17 that lawsuit; is that correct? There -- and I'm looking
18 at -- at the complaint right here. It's not just me. There
19 is another plaintiff, isn't there?
16:04:00 20 A. I -- I don't know what you are talking about.
16:04:04 21 Q. You are involved in a litigation that has two
22 plaintiffs. You haven't read -- I mean, it seems like you
23 seem to be upset over a $9.7-million lawsuit, but you have
24 not even read it? I'm a little confused.
16:04:18 25 A. I handed it to university counsel because in my

307
1 administrative duties, university counsel will take that to
2 the Attorney General's Office who will represent me in this
3 new lawsuit that Mr. Fuller has filed against me. So
4 yesterday, when I picked that up, it's going directly to the
5 Attorney General's Office. I have had less than 24 hours to
6 read and be aware of this information.
16:04:37 7 Q. I just want to -- wanted to ask you: You are a
8 state employee. Are you being sued in this lawsuit in your
9 professional capacity or in your personal capacity?
16:04:48 10 A. I'm being sued in my personal capacity by someone
11 who is very litigious and should have sued me in my
12 professional capacity. I am not the one that brought the
13 lawsuit .
16:05:01 14 Q. You bring up a point that you brought here,
15 talking about litigious. Are you aware that the defendant
16 was essentially a judge in a specialty court in the state
17 and has never had a complaint brought against him?
16:05:15 20 Q. You mentioned litigious. That's something that
21 you just mentioned. Can you name any lawsuit in which the
22 defendant is -- is a plaintiff other than your own?
16:05:28 23 A. I don't know the details, but I know that you have
24 sued several judges. You have created several suits against
25 lawyers who were court appointed to represent you. I know

308
1 that you are --
16:05:37 2 Q. Let's just stop right there.
16:05:37 3 A. -- suing the town of Orange County.
16:05:40 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you asked the question.
5 She gets to answer it.
16:05:44 6 You may finish your answer.
16:05:47 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
16:05:47 8 I know that you have filed several complaints
9 against the attorneys who have been involved in our various
10 trials, people that were court appointed to represent you
11 that you fired. You have created lawsuits against judges.
12 You have created lawsuits against the Town of Chapel Hill
13 because of our gay pride flags.
16:06:07 14 Q. Ms. Zerden, if I could stop you. You are under
15 oath, and you have just made a number of false statements.
16:06:14 17 MR. FULLER: You are under oath.
16:06:16 18 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, don't argue with the
19 witness. Ask your next question.
16:06:28 20 BY MR. FULLER:
16:06:29 21 Q. A follow-up on being under oath: Do you know what
22 the penalty for perjury is in the State of North Carolina?
16:06:37 25 A. No, I do not know. Everything I'm saying is

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1 truthful to the best of my knowledge, and I'm answering the
2 best that I can under these circumstances. This is not
3 something that I'm enjoying. This is not a place where I
4 would like to be.
16:06:49 5 Q. And I -- I can't give you advice, but I would just
6 slow down for the -- you just -- I'm going to ask you a
7 question. Can you please follow-up.
16:06:57 8 You just mentioned or seemed to -- to suggest that
9 Napier Fuller has sued Orange County. Is -- is that -- did
10 I understand that correctly?
16:07:11 11 A. Yes, I believe that's correct.
16:07:15 12 Q. Isn't it true that your husband actually sued
13 Orange County?
16:07:17 14 MR. COURLANG: Objection.
16:07:18 15 A. That is not true.
16:07:26 17 Q. How many lawsuits have your immediate family been
18 involved in?
16:07:34 21 THE WITNESS: We had our first trial --
16:07:36 22 THE COURT: Ummm, when I say "sustained," you
23 don't answer.
16:07:38 24 THE WITNESS: Oh.
16:07:46 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, there -- there

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1 are some things that I need to take up outside your presence
2 to sort of get ready for tomorrow; and it seems like now is
3 probably the time to do that. So we are going to suspend
4 the evidence for the day, and I'm going to spend the rest of
5 the day working on legal issues.
16:08:02 6 So remember the rules. Don't be talking about the
7 case with each other. Don't talk about the case with
8 anybody else. Don't read anything about it in the
9 newspaper. Don't watch anything about it on television or
10 read anything about it on the Internet. Don't do any
11 independent investigation. Keep an open mind. You haven't
12 heard it all. Remember all the rest of the rules, and be
13 back outside ready to proceed at 9:30 in the morning.
14 Leave your notepads in your chairs.
16 courtroom.
16:08:32 17 A JUROR: What about -- what about this
18 (indicating)?
16:08:33 19 THE COURT: Just leave that in the chair, too.
23 the jury.)
16:09:20 24 THE COURT: All right. The jury is absent. There
25 are a few things I want to take care of, just housekeeping

311
1 things.
16:09:25 3 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, do you believe there might
4 be other documents or other things that you are going to be
5 using that you have ready at this point that I might need to
6 consider outside the jury's presence so we can just go ahead
7 and take care of that now?
16:09:40 8 MR. FULLER: Yes. I planned this evening to
9 prepare a timeline showing Zerden and the UNC police -- the
10 whole process of the timeline of all the adjectives used
11 over time, and I think that will be very interesting to look
12 at this case. Over time, you are going to see a lot of
13 adjectives that become much more aggressive after -- after
14 the fact when I take legal action.
16:10:09 15 And we're also going to show some of this
16 statistical data of the amount of e-mail opens. And,
17 again, I don't want to entrap people; and -- and I must
18 say, I don't know how they say it other than there has been
19 perjury today, just factual false statements by Ms. Zerden,
20 again. And I would just...
16:10:33 21 THE COURT: All right. Let me hear your argument
22 again because I'm not convinced yet -- because the -- the
23 effect of the e-mail on the recipient is not an issue; it
24 was your intention in sending it. So how does the number of
25 times that it was opened, the way it was described, all that

312
1 sort of stuff, how is that relevant to an issue in this
2 case?
16:11:00 3 MR. FULLER: I think it helps balance the
4 inflammatory aspects of -- of Ms. Zerden. I -- I think it's
5 a great balance. But, I mean, juries make very emotional
6 decisions. We all know that. It's not based on the law.
7 And so I want to put into the record a whole 'nother
8 statistical world that's going to show that they just can't
9 stop opening these e-mails. They are addicted to them. And
10 someone that does choice theory can then create one based on
11 their responses. And they are the ones that keep opening
12 them, and I think that's a pretty strong argument.
16:11:39 13 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to take that under
14 advisement. I'm going to let the State -- I'm going to hear
15 what your argument is about why I shouldn't do that, but I'm
16 going to do that in the morning because we are all getting a
17 little tired and a little touchy. And I don't want to do
18 anything while I'm feeling touchy.
16:11:56 19 All right?
16:11:58 21 THE COURT: Although -- so that's that part.
22 Since Mr. Lambeth is here -- and I have gotten verification
23 from the sheriff that, Mr. Fuller, your subpoena on
24 Mr. Bowen has been served. So I understand that Mr. Lambeth
25 is here to make a motion to quash that subpoena so I will

313
1 entertain that motion at this time.
16:12:23 3 MR. LAMBETH: Yes, Your Honor.
16:12:24 4 THE COURT: Just so you'll know, Mr. Fuller, your
5 subpoena on Chief McCracken has not been served because he
6 is out of the office this week so he can't be -- he can't be
7 compelled to be here unless he has been served with a
8 subpoena.
16:12:41 9 And your subpoena on Dr. Phoenix has been served,
10 and Dr. Phoenix is here. Okay?
16:12:46 11 MR. LAMBETH: Thank you, Your Honor.
16:12:46 12 THE COURT: Now, as to Mr. Bowen.
16:12:48 13 MR. LAMBETH: As to Mr. Bowen, I would just say
14 that -- first, that Rule 45, which governs motions to quash
15 subpoenas, cites a number of grounds for objecting and for
16 ruling on a motion to quash including a reasonable time for
17 compliance, whether the subpoena is unreasonable or
18 oppressive, and whether the subpoena causes an undue burden
19 to someone.
16:13:09 20 The last-minute nature of these subpoenas I think
21 fits all three of those boxes. Obviously, a reasonable
22 time for compliance would be the most clean fit there.
16:13:19 23 Mr. Fuller --
16:13:20 24 THE COURT: Well, before you -- before we head
25 down that road any further, Mr. Fuller has in the past been

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DISCUSS QUASH SUBPOENA OF BOWEN/LAMBETH
1 frustrated in his attempt to have subpoenas issued by court
2 officials in this county; and he had to go to court and get
3 a superior court judge to order that these subpoenas be
4 issued. And then for whatever reason, I ended up issuing
5 this subpoena yesterday so none of that is Mr. Fuller's
6 fault.
16:13:54 7 I want to talk about more -- and let me just -- I
8 understand where you are coming from. What is it that you
9 expect to ask Mr. Bowen that you think is admissible in
10 evidence?
16:14:05 11 MR. FULLER: He shows up in the discovery as the
12 big cheerleader from IRS saying "attaboy" to her. He is her
13 boss, and so -- I -- I tried to get him last time, and he
14 mysteriously went off to Italy. And he actually gave his
15 plane ticket and his frequent flyer number in the subpoena.
16 And I would just be happy to have him come around. Since he
17 cheered for my arrest, I think we should see him. In fact,
18 I got one of those papers right here. It says:
16:14:32 19 [as read] Thanks. I appreciate your direct
20 intervention.
16:14:35 21 This is after my arrest or after it had been
22 ordered.
16:14:38 24 THE COURT: Okay. Based on the defendant's
25 forecast of evidence to be presented by this witness, I find

315
1 that this subpoena was issued for an improper purpose; and
2 it is quashed. Mr. Bowen will not be required to attend
3 this court.
16:14:53 4 All right. Now --
16:14:54 5 MR. LAMBETH: Thank you, Your Honor. May I
6 actually just ask one more thing?
16:14:56 8 MR. LAMBETH: I don't know -- I certainly cannot
9 forecast where Mr. Fuller is going with any of the UNC
10 employees, but there have been a couple of references to UNC
11 counsel in these e-mails. And to the extent that Mr. Fuller
12 tries to ask questions about conversations between
13 Dr. Zerden or Terri Phoenix, when Terri testifies, and UNC
14 counsel -- obviously I'm not at the counsel table -- but
15 there is a privilege issue that the University would hold
16 there. I don't know if I could just lodge a continuing
17 objection in case that happens or how the best way to handle
18 that is if it comes up.
16:15:26 19 THE COURT: You are free to counsel these
20 witnesses as to what your contention is about the
21 attorney-client privilege. And if they invoke that
22 privilege, I'll decide whether they have invoked it
23 properly.
16:15:40 24 MR. LAMBETH: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor.
16:15:40 25 THE COURT: You're welcome.

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DISCUSS FULLER PROPOSED EVIDENCE/FULLER/COURLANG
16:15:41 2 MR. FULLER: The issue there is the discovery. I
3 think perhaps someone mistakenly let loose a lot more stuff
4 than they wanted, but I have got a lot of internal
5 communications from the Office of Counsel. And -- and
6 that's the issue I want to get at is why would a corporate
7 university counsel be so involved in a criminal matter?
8 They basically arranged the whole thing, my arrest; and I
9 think that that's the question. It's very unusual --
16:16:10 11 MR. FULLER: -- in jurisprudence.
16:16:12 12 THE COURT: I'm not going to let you use this
13 trial as a discovery vehicle in your federal case. You are
14 going to have to do that in your federal case. I find that
15 those matters are not material to this case. They are not
16 relevant. They are not admissible. And I'm not going to
17 let you go down that road in this case --
16:16:29 19 THE COURT: -- okay?
16:16:34 20 Anything else that the State thinks we might be
21 able to get accomplished before we recess?
16:16:40 22 You got any more witnesses?
16:16:42 23 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, we are going to ask to
24 recall Investigator Barbee for a very brief recall; but that
25 would be our last witness.

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16:16:50 1 THE COURT: Okay. And I take it you are going to
2 have some questions because you said you wanted to question
3 some stuff after the e-mails come in.
16:16:56 5 THE COURT: Okay. That's fine.
16:16:56 6 MR. FULLER: And I have Dr. Styles, who is going
7 to testify on my behalf as well. He's sitting --
16:17:04 8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm just talking about
9 procedural matters, evidentiary matters, that we can
10 accomplish, things I need to do outside the presence of the
11 jury that we can go ahead and do while they are not here to
12 keep from wasting any court time.
16:17:20 14 THE COURT: I mean, you have been sitting here
15 doing this long enough. Do you think there might be some
16 evidentiary issues that we ought to go ahead and get rulings
17 on?
16:17:30 18 MR. FULLER: Oh, yes. I mean, I'm going to --
19 since Zerden has -- has introduced this, I mean, I'm
20 definitely going to get on the blind carbon copy because we
21 have all this discovery that shows all these computer
22 scientists were involved so I'm kind of amazed that they
23 can't somehow show the blind carbon copy. You have got all
24 these CS people. They are doing all these thing with the
25 e-mails. They are trying to block them.

318
16:17:55 1 And that's another issue I want to get to look.
2 What does it mean to receive an e-mail if you have already
3 hired computer scientists to block them? And so we are
4 going to have to get into this issue because we actually
5 have e-mails showing that now we -- for the case, we need
6 to unblock them, go get them out where he blocked them.
7 And so I would say that it was never received. So we are
8 going to have to get into tremendous depth because we have
9 evidence that shows they were doing all that and then going
10 around and pulling them back when they wanted.
16:18:28 11 THE COURT: Well, I will let you ask her questions
12 about that. She is only allowed to answer questions that
13 are within her personal knowledge.
16:18:39 15 THE COURT: She has already testified that she
16 received them. If you have some things that you think might
17 impeach her that show that she didn't receive them, you can
18 certainly go down that line with her; but I'm not going to
19 let you testify while you do that.
16:18:56 21 THE COURT: So you are going to have to decide how
22 you can do that, and I will rule on objections as they come.
23 I'm not really sure that's anything we can accomplish right
24 now.
16:19:09 25 MR. FULLER: One other thing.

319
16:19:10 1 THE COURT: Anything else -- okay.
16:19:13 2 MR. FULLER: Just to be forthcoming, I would like
3 a judicial ruling, whether for or for against, that 50-page
4 motion. I mean, I got that guy at UCLA. It would be kind
5 of courteous to respond. And --
16:19:29 6 THE COURT: I ruled on the facial
7 unconstitutionality challenge, and I ruled in the State's
8 favor.
16:19:37 9 I'm going to rule on the as-applied challenge
10 after all the State's evidence is complete because that's
11 how we apply -- we have to apply the evidence --
16:19:50 13 THE COURT: -- to the law, and I don't know what
14 all the evidence is yet. So you are going to get a ruling
15 before you have to decide whether to put on evidence. That
16 ruling is going to come at the close of the State's
17 evidence; and it will be very closely intertwined, I think,
18 with my ruling on whether they have presented sufficient
19 evidence to continue going.
16:20:07 20 MR. FULLER: Right. And I don't mean to be seen
21 as criticizing the judge. This case has been going on.
22 There has been -- I think you are the ninth one involved;
23 but I've often wanted an adverse decision so I could --
24 because I can then file an interloculatory (sic) appeal,
25 directly to the North Carolina Supreme Court, because of the

320
1 Constitutional issue. I know that's going to make you mad.
16:20:30 2 THE COURT: It doesn't make me mad at all.
16:20:32 3 MR. FULLER: I'm just excited to do it because I
4 think it's fun.
16:20:35 5 THE COURT: I expect you to do everything that you
6 can to defend yourself. That doesn't make me mad in the
7 least.
16:20:41 8 But in a criminal case -- I can't think of any
9 exceptions -- you can't appeal anything until there is a
10 judgment. And the reason for that is --
16:20:53 11 MR. FULLER: That's right.
16:20:54 12 THE COURT: The reason for that is, if you are
13 found not guilty, there is nothing to appeal. It's only
14 after a guilty verdict that you can appeal. Interlocutory
15 appeals are not allowed in criminal cases. All right.
16:21:07 16 Now, it's theoretically possible that you could
17 ask the North Carolina Court of Appeals to take your appeal
18 up on a petition for a writ of certiorari. I have never
19 heard of them doing that; but if you try, it won't make me
20 mad at all. I'm just doing the best I can to follow the
21 law.
16:21:31 23 THE COURT: And if somebody thinks I got it wrong,
24 that's fine; okay?
16:21:37 25 MR. FULLER: Fair enough, Judge.

321
16:21:40 2 Mr. Sheriff, put this court in recess until 9:30
3 in the morning.
16:21:46 5 (Volume Three ends here on page 321. The trial transcript
6 continues in Volume Four at page 322 and was reported by
7 this same court reporter, Kimmel G. McDiarmid, RPR, Official
8 Court Reporter, whose certificate is at the end of
9 Volume Four.)
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Defendant. )
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TRANSCRIPT, Volume IV of IV
Thursday, 9 August 2018
Pages 322 - 524
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Jury Trial
-----------------------------------------------------------

919-644-4600
For the Pro Se

2201 Lynnwood Drive
Wilmington NC 28403
910.262.2359
napier@alum.mit.edu
324
INDEX
Dft's Argument Motion for Relief - Fuller 327
State's Argument Motion for Relief - Courlang 329
Discuss w/Court Order of Procedure by Fuller 382
STATE RESTS 411

Fuller
State's Argument Motion to Dismiss (as-applied) - 414

Courlang

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS (AS-APPLIED) 418
Dft's Argument Sufficiency of the Evidence - 420

Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON SUFFICIENCY OF THE EVIDENCE 420
Discuss w/Court Dft's Rights Evidence Presentation 421

by Fuller
COURT'S RULING ON DFT'S RIGHTS EVIDENCE 425

PRESENTATION
DEFENDANT'S EVIDENCE BEGINS 430
DEFENDANT RESTS 465
CHARGE CONFERENCE 467
DEFENDANT'S CLOSING 481
STATE'S FINAL 498
JURY CHARGE 501
JURY DELIBERATIONS AND QUESTIONS TO THE COURT 510
JURY VERDICT 4:27 p.m. 511
READING OF THE VERDICT 513

325
SENTENCING HEARING 514
Discuss w/Court Pretrial Release Conditions by 520

Courlang, Fuller
WITNESS: PAGE
Lisa de Saxe Zerden

DEFENDANT'S CASE IN CHIEF ---------------------------------
Ross Barbee
Terri Phoenix
EXHIBITS
4 Zerden e-mail with Zuckerman 348
5 string of e-mails re: blocking e-mails 359
6 printed Anti-Tranny.org logo 388 388
7 Internal Affairs statistics 430
8 e-mail from Gary Bowen 447
9 Phone call transcript, Barbee & Fuller 454
10 USDOJ CRD Recommendations 457

326
09:32:18 1 (Court resumed session Thursday 9 August 2018 at 9:32 a.m.)
6 of the jury.)
09:32:19 7 THE COURT: Let the record reflect Mr. Fuller is
8 present, the State is present, the jury is absent.
09:32:23 9 Do we have all the jurors?
09:32:23 10 BAILIFF NEIGHBOURS: We are a couple short.
09:33:42 12 BAILIFF NEIGHBOURS: They are all present, sir.
09:33:44 13 THE COURT: All right. Before we call for the
14 jury, anything from the State?
09:33:47 15 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State has received
16 a motion from Mr. Fuller, defendant's request for relief,
17 file stamped this morning at 9:18 a.m. I believe Mr. Fuller
18 wanted to address this.
09:34:02 19 THE COURT: All right. I have it. I'm in the
20 process of reading it. Mr. Fuller, let me finish reading
21 it; and then I will hear from you.
09:35:12 23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller, I have read
24 your motion. I will hear your argument.
09:35:16 25 MR. FULLER: Yes. But before that I just wanted

327
1 to say for the housekeeping or whatnot, hopefully we might
2 be able to wrap up today or -- or in other words --
09:35:26 3 THE COURT: That seems likely.
09:35:27 4 MR. FULLER: I have got a late checkout at
5 1:00 p.m. in Chapel Hill, and I would like to get my things
6 out there. And then second, it's my 10th anniversary; and I
7 would like to be home with my family and four young
8 children. But anyway, you know --
09:35:41 9 THE COURT: I will do my best to work with your
10 schedule.
09:35:44 12 MR. FULLER: Okay. Great. Let's just talk about
13 this motion.
09:35:46 14 The thing that kind of gets on my nerves is that I
15 think -- I wouldn't say the Court has made a mistake. But
16 when we called the Doctor -- and the problem with that is
17 when she has said -- and she did yesterday under oath --
18 that she thought that some of the e-mails showed evidence
19 of grandiosity, which is a DSM, you know, mental disorder,
20 that I think very, you know, much sort of degrades my
21 standing.
09:36:14 22 And she specifically referenced my connections
23 with the Trump family. And then I sort of put those into a
24 statement under penalty of perjury that I aver there is a
25 fair amount of contact between the Trumps and myself as

328
DFT ARGUMENT MOTION FOR RELIEF - FULLER
1 well as my admission to Morocco, but --
09:36:37 2 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Fuller, I can't keep up
3 with you.
09:36:37 4 MR. FULLER: Okay. I'm sorry.
09:36:37 5 THE COURT REPORTER: That's okay.
09:36:37 6 MR. FULLER: So she mentions grandiosity in two
7 references regarding my connection with the Trump family.
8 And indeed, I did go to the same boarding school as Ivanka;
9 and I have some connections with them, and also through
10 Jared, through a mutual friend, because we were all at
11 Cambridge at the same time.
09:36:55 12 But anyway, she also mentioned grandiosity in
13 terms of the ambassadorship for Morocco. I was just in
14 Morocco. I have my passport with the Moroccan stamps and
15 have worked for and am one of the few Americans ever to
16 work for the European Commission doing all sorts of
17 stuff -- I had an office in Brussels at one point --
18 including writing speeches for the United Nations World
19 Council on Information Technologies.
09:37:21 20 So I was just sort of irked that the jury heard
21 that. You have an expert up there, basically saying I'm
22 delusional, crazy. And I would like that somehow to be
23 corrected as well as, you know, this media has been kind of
24 repeating that there were sexually explicit messages. I
25 would disagree with that; I don't think there has been

329
DISCUSS MOTION FOR RELIEF/COURLANG, FULLER
1 anything proven that they were sexually explicit or, you
2 know, some of the phrases that they use -- "pornographic,"
3 "threatening." None of that has been proven. We haven't
4 even proven that there existed any communications.
09:37:51 5 When we get into some of this a little more today,
6 we are going to find out they had all these IT people
7 working with them. I can't believe they have so many IT
8 people and they can't even show one IP address.
09:38:02 9 So I would just like, with the Court, that my
10 reputation not be further damaged. This thing is kind of
11 moving swiftly. And just put it to the Court and see
12 what -- what can be done.
09:38:14 13 THE COURT: Okay. What says the State?
09:38:16 15 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State contends that
16 everything Mr. Fuller has raised are questions of fact.
17 Mr. Fuller does have the right to cross-examine Dr. Zerden
18 about each of these bullet points that he makes in this
19 particular motion for relief. The State contends that
20 Mr. Fuller has the right to cross-examine, and he can do so
21 about these points.
09:38:42 22 THE COURT: All right. And the Court will note
23 that Dr. Zerden made it clear in her testimony that she does
24 not claim to be an expert in the clinical practice of social
25 work and doesn't claim to be an expert in psychiatry. And

330
1 the Court recalls that -- and I -- Mr. Fuller, I appreciate
2 your argument, and I understand where you are coming from.
3 I will note that at least part of that testimony was
4 elicited by you.
09:39:15 5 MR. FULLER: So -- so I will handle it myself, I
6 suppose.
09:39:18 7 THE COURT: Yeah. You can cross-examine her about
8 those sorts of things within reason. And the -- several of
9 the things, the characterizations that you object to, are
10 for the jury to find; and -- and you can examine her about
11 those things.
09:39:36 12 MR. FULLER: Sure. I will try to be brief. I
13 realize that the Court has instructed me earlier to try to
14 stay on task as far as intent, and so I will diverge to
15 those briefly, and then I will come off of them. But in the
16 reading, I think the phrase "confront a witness," I expect
17 this aspect will get quite intense. And I have done it
18 before. I have been to court.
09:39:57 19 THE COURT: Okay. Well, there is no -- there is
20 no need for it to get intense. It's important; and it's a
21 rule of court that people maintain some level of decorum and
22 respect, that their questions be not argumentative.
09:40:16 24 THE COURT: You are free to confront her, but I'm
25 going to ask you not to get combative. And I trust that you

331
1 won't.
09:40:25 2 I also want to reiterate -- I have been thinking
3 about this a lot more overnight -- sort of the legal
4 framework within which we find ourselves. And it's not
5 relevant to an issue in this case -- and I don't want you
6 to conflate this case with your civil lawsuits because they
7 really are, even though they are closely related, they are
8 separate -- what the receiver -- well, let me back up.
09:40:56 9 The statute in this case -- our North Carolina
10 Court of Appeals has made it clear that the activity that
11 is regulated by this statute is not the content of your
12 speech, but rather, the conduct of sending repeated e-mails
13 if they were done for the purpose of harassing, annoying,
14 et cetera. And so it seems to me that in that legal
15 framework that what the recipient does with that
16 communication is not relevant to that determination. And
17 the only reason that the content is even relevant is to the
18 extent that it tends to show what your purpose in sending
19 it was.
09:41:50 21 THE COURT: And there are arguments on both sides
22 of that, and this jury is going to have to decide what your
23 purpose was. But I'm not going to let you go very far down
24 the road of how many times it was forwarded, and who it was
25 forwarded with, and what they did with your e-mails because

332
1 that's after the fact. That doesn't go to what your purpose
2 was. That goes to what their purpose is. And that's for a
3 different lawsuit.
09:42:12 4 MR. FULLER: Sure. And could I say: Just on that
5 point, I mean, I have read a fair amount about juries. They
6 are very emotional, and I just don't want them to become
7 inflamed because --
09:42:22 8 THE COURT: Sure. And that's one of the reasons I
9 asked them, if you will recall, in jury selection if they
10 were able to take whatever emotional response they might
11 have to this evidence and set it aside and follow the law.
12 And we have 12 jurors who have promised that they will do
13 that. And the law presumes that they are telling us the
14 truth and that they will indeed follow my instructions. And
15 I will remind them before it goes to the jury that they are
16 to base this case -- base their decision in this case only
17 on the evidence and the law. Okay?
09:42:50 18 So your motion is denied, but it's preserved for
19 appellate purposes.
09:42:54 20 All right. Anything else for the State before we
21 call for the jury?
09:43:01 24 MR. FULLER: Nothing.
09:43:01 25 THE COURT: All right. Dr. Zerden, come on back

333
1 up please.
09:43:04 2 And bring the jury in please.
09:43:38 3 MR. FULLER: If I might, following up from what we
4 just talked about, I'm going to be asking her about some of
5 the points. She might just want to review this.
09:43:48 6 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Sheriff, if you will,
7 hand that to the witness. Let the record reflect the jury
8 is still absent.
09:43:59 10 (Bailiff Neighbours complied.)
13 of the jury.)
09:45:48 14 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
15 Welcome back. Thank you for being here. Let the record
16 reflect: That all members of the jury are present in the
17 courtroom, that Dr. Zerden is still on the witness stand,
18 she is still under oath, and that she is still on
19 cross-examination.
09:46:02 20 Mr. Fuller.
09:46:04 22 Q. All right. Good morning, Dr. Zerden.
09:46:09 23 To start off with, I wanted to ask you, would you
24 like to correct the record from yesterday if you made any
25 false statements?

334
09:46:20 1 A. No, I would not.
09:46:26 2 Q. Are the statements you made yesterday true and
3 correct?
09:46:32 4 A. Yes, they are. They are true.
09:46:35 5 Q. Yesterday you stated that the defendant, myself,
6 was -- quote -- litigious.
09:46:46 7 Has the defendant ever engaged in any lawsuit
8 before you started this criminal action?
09:46:55 9 A. I don't know your history and that detail.
09:46:59 10 Q. Yesterday you stated under oath that the
11 defendant, myself -- and I quote -- had created lawsuits
12 against the Town of Chapel Hill. Is that a true statement?
09:47:14 13 A. I believe you have ongoing legal issues with
14 different towns currently. Yes, that's true.
09:47:23 15 Q. Again, let me repeat the question. You stated
16 under oath the defendant, Mr. Fuller, has created a
17 lawsuit -- ongoing legal controversy against the City, the
18 Town of Chapel Hill. Is that true or false?
09:47:38 19 MR. COURLANG: Objection. Asked and answered.
09:47:42 21 MR. FULLER: It's not -- I -- it's not true.
09:47:43 22 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, it is not your time to
23 testify.
09:47:47 25 THE COURT: Under the rules of evidence, you are

335
1 required to accept that answer and move on.
09:47:54 3 Q. Yesterday you stated the defendant, that it was
4 your personal opinion as a bigwig doctor, that the defendant
5 had a, quote, grandiose sense of self importance. And you
6 specifically referenced the defendant's interest in
7 obtaining an ambassadorship and his connections with the
8 Trump family.
09:48:21 9 Can you expound upon that a little bit more.
09:48:24 10 A. I was reading the information you provided in the
11 e-mails you sent to me about those matters. "Grandiose,"
12 while also in the DSM, is also an adjective.
09:48:36 13 Q. Yeah. I'm reading from the DSM. And being that
14 you are involved in -- I guess what we might term --
15 shrinkage --
09:48:49 18 Q. -- mental health --
09:48:50 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, Mr. Fuller, you know
20 better than that.
09:48:53 22 Q. Anyway. I will read you from the DSM because I
23 think -- it was my impression that you did reference it in a
24 more formal way. But here is what the DSM says. It
25 describes grandiose as being a sense of self importance,

336
1 exaggerating achievements, preoccupied with fantasies, a
2 sense of entitlement. And you reference this into -- into
3 the -- my connections or alleged connections to the Trump
4 family.
09:49:16 5 So I just wanted to ask you about that. True or
6 false: Did the defendant, Napier Fuller, attend the same
7 boarding school as Ivanka?
09:49:24 8 A. I have no idea.
09:49:25 9 Q. Is Ivanka and the defendant about the same age?
09:49:31 10 A. I have no idea.
09:49:33 11 Q. Well, you -- is it correct that you made comments
12 yesterday that seemed to belittle the connection between the
13 defendant and the Trump family? You stated that. Yesterday
14 you used that adjective "grandiose."
09:49:53 15 THE COURT REPORTER: Stop. You what of grandiose?
09:49:54 16 Q. You used the adjective grandiose to describe it.
09:49:54 18 Q. But now you are saying -- true or false: Now you
19 are saying that you don't know anything about the
20 connections between the defendant and the Trump family?
09:50:03 21 A. Mr. Fuller, best of luck to you in your
22 connections with the Trump family. If you have them, that's
23 good for you. I don't know what to say about that.
09:50:12 24 Q. You are holding a legal document that is made
25 under penalty of perjury by myself. It's been stamped by

337
1 the court. Can I ask you to read what it says on point
2 number 11 on page 3?
09:50:31 3 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to hearsay,
4 Your Honor.
09:50:33 5 THE COURT: Hang on a second.
09:50:36 6 Sustained.
09:50:41 7 MR. FULLER: So she does have to read it?
09:50:43 8 THE COURT: Sustained means that you -- that I
9 rule that that question is not proper. You may ask your
10 next question.
09:50:51 12 BY MR. FULLER:
09:50:51 13 Q. Is it true that the defendant in this case has
14 just made a statement under penalty of perjury that has
15 several paragraphs that detail his connections with the --
16 with the Trump family, including both with Ivanka and with
17 Jared, who was in 2004 at Harvard? Is that what this
18 document says; true or false?
09:51:14 19 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object. I believe
20 Mr. Fuller is testifying.
09:51:18 22 Q. You also -- can you read any Arabic?
09:51:21 23 A. No. I don't read or speak Arabic.
09:51:25 24 Q. Okay. You also made a statement in regards to
25 Morocco. I happen to have a passport here with Moroccan

338
1 visas in it. I won't get into that, but I just wanted to
2 ask you a few questions that go towards your comments
3 yesterday.
09:51:41 4 A. Certainly.
09:51:42 5 Q. Again, you made those under oath. And they seem
6 to be -- or I will ask you a question: Those comments you
7 made, would those tend to enhance my reputation for
8 truthfulness in front of the jury or -- or degrade them?
09:52:03 10 THE COURT: Overruled. I'm not sure that's an
11 either/or question so you don't have to answer it yes or no.
12 You can explain your answer if -- if it requires more than a
13 yes or no.
09:52:12 14 A. Thank you.
09:52:14 15 My ability to judge or assess your truthfulness is
16 my opinion. It is up to the jurors to decide whether you
17 sent these e-mails and what kind of intentions and acts you
18 have done to me, my faculty, students, and staff at the
19 School of Social Work. If you are not looking positively or
20 in a good light, it's because of the actions you have done,
21 not because of anything I have done to you. So I'm actually
22 the victim in this, not you, Mr. Fuller.
09:52:43 23 Q. That's a great question. I want to ask you --
09:52:45 24 THE COURT: Hang on a second. Approach the bench.
25 I want to ask you if you want me to do something.

339
09:53:11 3 THE COURT: I'm going to recreate the bench
4 conference. I asked the defendant if he would like me to
5 give the following limiting instruction, and he did ask me
6 to give this.
09:53:19 7 So, ladies and gentlemen, I want to instruct you
8 that you are the sole judges of the credibility of the
9 evidence and the credibility of the witnesses. There has
10 been no testimony that has been admitted for the purpose of
11 anyone giving any opinion as to anyone's credibility, and
12 you are not to take anyone's testimony in that light.
13 Again, you are the sole judges of the credibility of each
14 witness. Thank you very much.
09:53:44 16 BY MR. FULLER:
09:53:46 17 Q. My question to you, Ms. Zerden, you keep referring
18 to --
09:53:49 19 A. Dr. Zerden.
09:53:49 20 Q. For equality, I'm not going to call you that. I'm
21 going to call you Ms. Zerden.
09:53:54 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, we talked about this.
09:53:56 23 MR. FULLER: For equality, I can call you whatever
24 I like. And it's perfectly legitimate --
09:54:00 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm

340
1 going to consider a matter of law outside your presence.
2 Please retire to the jury room. Remember the rules.
5 the jury.)
09:54:53 6 THE COURT: All right. All the members of the
7 jury are absent.
09:54:53 8 Mr. Fuller, there is not a rule of evidence about
9 this; but there are lots of thing that go on in the course
10 of a trial that are, as they say, within the sound
11 discretion of the trial judge. It's the judge's
12 prerogative and responsibility to oversee the presentation
13 of evidence. If you had a Ph.D., I would refer to you as
14 Dr. Fuller. Just as a matter of courtesy, I'm going to
15 require you to refer to people by the title that they have
16 earned. And in the case of this particular witness, you
17 will refer to her as "Dr. Zerden."
09:55:36 18 MR. FULLER: What is the remedy if I refuse?
09:55:39 19 THE COURT: I have issued a direct order to you.
20 You would be then subject to a summary proceeding at which I
21 will determine whether there is proof beyond a reasonable
22 doubt that you have intentionally violated a direct order of
23 this Court. That is a crime.
09:56:01 24 MR. FULLER: All right. Can I request that she
25 refer to me as "Master Fuller" because I have a master's

341
1 degree from MIT?
09:56:07 2 THE COURT: You may not because that's not a
3 common expression used to address people with master's
4 degrees.
09:56:13 5 MR. FULLER: All right. That's fine. Let's just
6 move on. I mean, I'm just getting sick of this bullshit
7 from her.
09:56:18 8 THE COURT: Sir, this is your first and only
9 warning from this Court that for you to refer to anything
10 that's going on in this court using the term -- and I
11 quote -- bullshit or any similar term that is ordinarily
12 understood to be profane in the English language is a
13 disruption to the proceedings of this Court and could
14 subject you to penalties under contempt of court. Okay?
09:56:55 15 MR. FULLER: All right. Let's just move on. I
16 mean, when I become irritated, I'm going to become -- to get
17 to be very snappy. That's a part of ADD.
09:57:04 18 THE COURT: Would you like to have a recess --
09:57:06 19 MR. FULLER: I think that would be good.
09:57:08 20 THE COURT: -- so that you can regain your
21 composure?
09:57:13 22 MR. FULLER: Yeah. I mean, I'm just -- I can't
23 stand calling her "Doctor." And she insulted me with this
24 "grandiose." It just burns me up. It's been in the media.

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09:57:17 1 MR. FULLER: I mean, I went to Choate. It's where
2 John Kennedy went. And I do have connection. And I met the
3 president before. I mean, it's just outrageous that my
4 integrity is -- is questioned and -- by the doctor. But,
5 yes, let's -- let's take a recess because I am very
6 irritated about it.
09:57:35 7 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring the jury back
8 please.
11 of the jury.)
09:58:16 12 THE COURT: All right. Don't get comfortable.
13 Ladies and gentlemen, this issue is going to take longer
14 than I thought; and I don't want to leave you cooped up in
15 the jury room so I'm going to take a recess at this time.
16 Please gather yourself back in the jury lounge -- is that
17 what we call it, jury lounge --
09:58:29 18 BAILIFF COLLINS: Yes, Your Honor.
09:58:29 19 THE COURT: -- that one out there, in 15 minutes.
09:58:31 20 All right. Remember the rules. Leave your
21 notebooks in your chairs. Everybody remain seated while
22 the jury leaves the courtroom.
25 the jury.)

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09:59:15 1 THE COURT: All right. The jury is absent. We
2 will be in recess for 15 minutes. Thank you.
9 of the jury.)
10:16:05 10 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Let the record
11 reflect that Mr. Fuller is present, the State is present,
12 and the jury is absent.
10:16:10 13 Mr. Fuller, have you sufficiently regained your
14 composure that you think you can --
10:16:13 15 MR. FULLER: I have. We are back to being best
16 friends again. I am calm. I went on a long, quick walk and
17 am cheerful.
10:16:21 18 THE COURT: All right. I just -- I hope you can
19 appreciate that the Court -- that the presiding judge has
20 the responsibility to the court as a whole to maintain
21 decorum and dignity, and I intend to do that. So I hope
22 that you can keep that in mind. I will continue to conduct
23 myself as dignified and respectfully as I can. If anybody
24 else doesn't, then it's my job to correct that. I just want
25 to make sure you understand that.

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10:16:55 1 MR. FULLER: And I would just point out from
2 reading about how someone in authority -- to achieve those
3 objectives with me the best way is de-escalation and to have
4 a break.
10:17:06 5 THE COURT: And that's why we just took a break.
10:17:08 6 MR. FULLER: Yeah. And I appreciate that. Thank
7 you.
10:17:10 8 THE COURT: I'm -- I'm very appreciative of
9 that -- okay. That's my goal. I would like to finish this
10 trial with everybody's dignity intact. I appreciate that
11 you believe that your dignity has been attacked. Some of
12 that is just part of the adversarial system. You don't have
13 to ask her any more questions if you don't want to. That's
14 up to you; okay?
10:17:48 15 All right. Bring the jury back please.
10:18:17 16 MR. FULLER: Can I go ahead and move to put an
17 exhibit in?
10:18:21 18 THE COURT: Wait until the jury gets back please.
19 And if it's something you haven't shown him yet, if you'd
20 show it to him, that would streamline things a little bit.
10:18:26 21 MR. FULLER: And is there some number that I
22 should write down?
10:18:26 23 THE COURT: Let's see. It appears to me you are
24 on number 4.
10:18:37 25 Is that right, Madam Clerk?

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10:18:38 1 THE CLERK: Yes, sir.
5 of the jury.)
10:21:05 7 Mr. Fuller, you may proceed.
10:21:09 10 Q. Dr. Zerden, we were talking about stalking. You
11 say you are the victim; is that correct?
10:21:20 13 Q. Okay. I'm going to review some -- some phrases.
14 And if you could, say either "Fuller" or "Zerden" --
15 "Fuller" referring to me and "Zerden" referring to you --
16 regarding the following things that have occurred to you as
17 a result of this legal process.
10:21:37 18 Have you ever in this legal process had people
19 search your pockets, which included putting their hands
20 where they touched your genitals and your rump?
10:21:54 23 Q. It -- it -- say "Fuller" or "Zerden."
10:22:00 25 MR. FULLER: That means I lost?

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10:22:02 1 THE COURT: Yeah. Ask your next question.
10:22:04 3 Q. Okay. So was it Fuller or Zerden that had
4 encountered people with guns drawn? Fuller or Zerden?
10:22:15 7 Q. Is it Fuller or Zerden that was paraded around in
8 handcuffs?
10:22:26 11 Q. Your testimony yesterday said that you actually
12 had been on the defendant, myself, Napier Fuller -- you had
13 been on his Facebook. Is that true or -- true?
10:22:40 14 A. That is true. I had been notified of things that
15 you posted about me and my family on your Facebook page, and
16 I wanted to see them myself. They were very disturbing, and
17 I sent them immediately to the DA so that he could be aware
18 of what you were posting about me, given the no contact
19 order.
10:23:01 20 Q. Ummm, is posting something, say, that your husband
21 is an abortionist --
10:23:08 23 Q. -- on my own website, is that a violation of any
24 court order?

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10:23:19 1 Q. I get a little confused. You mentioned this
2 faculty and students. Are you acting on their behalf? I
3 get really confused with this relationship. The way I think
4 of it is, like, if my wife was raped and she was shy to come
5 to court, maybe I could come for her. And it -- it seems
6 like you are acting on others' behalf; is that true?
10:23:37 7 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to the form of
8 the question.
10:23:40 9 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.
10:23:41 10 Q. All right. Are you acting on others' behalf in
11 making this complaint?
10:23:45 12 A. I made the complaint as the Chief Administrator of
13 our MSW program. I personally received these e-mails;
14 therefore, I am the victim. If you would like other cases
15 brought against you, there would be a whole lot of fodder to
16 bring forward, including 49 e-mails to Laurie Selz-Campbell,
17 including 250 e-mails to Dr. Phoenix --
10:24:02 18 THE COURT: Ma'am, please just -- ma'am, please
19 just answer the question that you are asked.
21 of the witness about other e-mails.
10:24:10 23 Q. Is it true or false that you are the only one here
24 that has made a criminal complaint?
10:24:19 25 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are about to open the

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1 door to something I told her not to testify to.
10:24:25 2 MR. FULLER: I --
10:24:25 4 MR. FULLER: -- I get a little confused. I'm
5 sorry.
10:24:29 7 MR. FULLER: I'm going to move to put into
8 evidence Defendant's Exhibit Number 4. What more phrase do
9 I say?
10:24:37 10 THE COURT: Well, right now you just move to admit
11 it. Is there objection by the State?
10:24:42 12 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor.
10:24:42 13 THE COURT: Can I see it please? I don't know
14 what it is.
10:24:46 15 MR. FULLER: It's from the discovery --
10:24:48 16 THE COURT: Well, don't tell them what it is
17 (indicating). Let me see it.
10:24:54 18 (The Bailiff gave paperwork to the judge.)
22 identification.)
10:25:30 23 THE COURT: For now, the objection is overruled.
24 I will let him see if he can lay a foundation for it.
10:25:38 25 MR. FULLER: Could we have a copy for Dr. Zerden?

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10:25:42 1 THE COURT: Yeah. You can refer to this as
2 Defendant's Exhibit Number 4. I have yet to rule whether it
3 is received in evidence, but you can refer to it until I
4 decide.
10:25:49 5 (Copy provided to the witness.)
10:25:51 8 Q. Okay. Dr. Zerden, this -- I obtained this from
9 the discovery released. Does this -- it has your name at
10 the top. Is this an e-mail you sent? Does this look like
11 something familiar to you?
10:26:01 12 A. Yes, it is. It's an e-mail I sent to one of the
13 faculty members that I supervise.
10:26:06 14 Q. Okay. So -- okay. And so I don't speak foreign
15 languages. What is this "oy vey" comment? What does that
16 mean? What language is that?
10:26:19 17 A. I think it's Yiddish.
10:26:24 18 Q. Okay. And then what does that mean in Yiddish?
10:26:27 19 A. I think it means like, "Oh, my goodness." I think
20 that would be a translation.
10:26:32 21 Q. Okay. So just tell me -- I'm just curious about
22 Ronni Zuckerman in -- in -- and I want you to be aware, I
23 have these files that show how many times that these e-mails
24 were opened.

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10:26:47 1 MR. FULLER: I just don't want to get into perjury
2 here.
10:26:49 3 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, don't testify.
10:26:51 4 THE WITNESS: I think there's two copies here,
5 Judge.
10:26:51 6 THE COURT: Ask her questions please.
10:26:53 8 Q. Okay. Tell us about Ronni L. Zuckerman, the
9 Yiddish speaker. And how did she get involved in this
10 thing, and why is she talking to you about this case?
10:27:01 11 A. Ronni Zuckerman is a faculty member at the School
12 of Social Work. It was from Ronni to myself. I'm her
13 supervisor. And Laurie Selz-Campbell, the other faculty
14 member, is cc-ed here. And it says, "oy vey." And the
15 reason Ronni Zuckerman was brought in is because she too
16 received e-mail communications from Mr. Fuller.
10:27:22 17 Q. Has Ms. Zuckerman made any criminal complaint?
10:27:24 18 A. She made complaints to me as her supervisor, and
19 that's why --
10:27:28 20 Q. Can you answer "yes" or "no"? Did she make a
21 criminal complaint?
10:27:31 22 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, don't interrupt her when
23 she is talking. Are you finished with your answer?
10:27:35 24 A. Ronni Zuckerman came to me. I'm her direct
25 supervisor. Because of her issue, I said, "I will handle

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1 this." And that's why you are seeing me here today and not
2 Ronni Zuckerman.
10:27:45 3 MR. FULLER: I think we got to move to dismiss.
4 She is acting on behalf of another person. She just said
5 that --
10:27:49 6 THE WITNESS: I received the e-mails too. And you
7 cc-ed me on this communication, Mr. Fuller, so I knew what
8 Ronni Zuckerman was talking about. You wrote:
10:27:55 9 [as read] We have --
10:27:55 10 THE COURT: Whoa, whoa. Wait. Wait.
10:27:55 11 THE WITNESS: -- an antitranny supporter on the
12 inside.
10:27:58 13 THE COURT: Dr. Zerden, when I say "wait," stop
14 talking.
10:28:01 15 Your motion is denied. Ask your next question.
10:28:04 16 BY MR. FULLER:
10:28:10 17 Q. Is it possible to come to court to prosecute
18 someone on someone else's behalf? I just don't -- I don't
19 understand --
10:28:18 20 MR. COURLANG: Objection --
10:28:20 22 Q. -- your role. You said you were acting in this
23 role -- what was that again?-- the -- you have all these
24 phrases. The role -- the chief something or another? What
25 was it?

352
10:28:30 1 A. My title is the Senior Associate Dean.
10:28:32 2 Q. So -- so what does it mean to act in a senior
3 dean's role as far as throwing people in jail?
10:28:48 6 Q. Okay. Back to this e-mail. Can you please read
7 what you said to Ronni? It starts with:
10:28:58 8 [as read] Ronni, I just wanted to say.
10:29:00 9 A. Certainly. I said:
10:29:01 10 [as read] Ronni -- and this was on January 17th,
11 right as school came back from winter break.
12 Ronni, just wanted to say how sorry I am that you
13 are now getting dragged -- getting these personal
14 e-mails too. Laurie and I have sent them to the
15 detective at UPD -- University Police
16 Department -- and also the lawyer of the
17 University counsel. Thank you very much. Just
18 wanted you to know we are on this, and we are very
19 sorry that you are now dragged in. Lisa.
10:29:28 20 Q. Okay. Why do you use the adjective "personal"
21 e-mails when we are well into the case in the timeframe, but
22 yet when you come to court you use these words
23 "pornographic" and "threatening"? But -- but when your --
24 your own -- talking to your own colleagues, you use just the
25 phrase "personal" as the adjective?

353
10:29:47 1 A. When I wrote the word "personal," I meant that she
2 is personally getting them directed to her. That's what I
3 meant by "personal." The contents, the -- what is written,
4 was just as offensive and ridiculous as the e-mails that I
5 shared with you yesterday.
10:30:01 6 Q. Can you tell us the title of the e-mail that you
7 sent -- especially the last part?
10:30:07 8 A. The subject of the e-mail is:
10:30:09 9 [as read] Zerden/Selz-Campbell -- or
10 Selz/Zuckerman, Intrusion of SSW Network --
11 question mark, question mark, question mark.
10:30:20 12 Q. And is it true in the context of this e-mail you
13 had accused the defendant, me, of cyber attacking your
14 network? Isn't that a discussion here about that you have
15 somehow got this -- this is a theory that y'all have come up
16 with. Is that true?
10:30:34 17 A. This -- this e-mail came -- it was sent from
18 antitranny.org.
10:30:39 19 Q. We are not talking about the e-mail. I'm talking
20 about your comments about it. It -- and I may need to
21 rephrase that.
10:30:51 22 Is it true that you had accused, within this
23 internal conversation, the defendant of, quote, intrusion of
24 the SSW network -- whatever that is. Is that a true or
25 false statement?

354
10:31:06 1 A. That was a forwarded subject header. I didn't
2 write that subject header.
10:31:10 3 Q. Could it be that your anger at me is based upon
4 other people forwarding you unsubstantiated claims? Is it
5 possible that that would lead you to be angry?
10:31:26 8 A. Could it be that you should be held responsible
9 for the e-mails you sent to me? That's what this is about,
10 Mr. Fuller.
10:31:33 11 Q. Don't ask -- you answer the question. I'm
12 conducting the cross.
10:31:36 13 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I issue orders in this
14 courtroom. You don't. If you would like to, the way you
15 properly do that is to ask me to instruct the witness to
16 answer the question.
10:31:50 18 THE COURT: That's not your job.
10:31:52 20 THE COURT: All right. Ask another question.
10:31:53 21 BY MR. FULLER:
10:31:55 22 Q. I have lost my train of thought here. I asked a
23 very good question, and I wanted it answered.
10:32:02 24 A. Can you restate it.
10:32:11 25 Q. True or false: You are the only person that's

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1 made any criminal complaint in this -- in this larger set
2 of --
10:32:17 3 A. False.
10:32:19 4 Q. Can you tell us about the one other person that
5 made a complaint and whether it was considered to be a --
6 adjudicated in their favor or was it adjudicated in the
7 defendant's favor?
10:32:31 9 A. There was two people --
10:32:34 11 Q. Is it true or false that you are the only person
12 that has a claim that has not already ended in favor of the
13 defendant?
10:32:44 14 A. That is true.
10:32:46 15 MR. COURLANG: Object to the form of that, Your
16 Honor.
10:32:50 18 A. That is true.
10:32:51 19 Q. Okay. Let me see here. I want to ask you some
20 questions about your scholarship.
10:33:03 22 Q. It's my 10th anniversary. My wife is from -- a
23 Pacific Islander, and you actually have done a lot of
24 scholarship on females that are Pacific Islanders.
10:33:13 25 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I'm going to require you

356
1 to limit this question to things that are relevant to any
2 issue at hand.
10:33:16 3 MR. FULLER: Okay. Sure.
10:33:17 4 Q. This research is on sexual behaviors. I can read
5 you the title here. I just want to make sure that you
6 recognize this. It's called, "Longitudinal Effects of
7 Perceived Maternal Approval on Sexual Behaviors of Asian and
8 Pacific Islander Young Adults," published in the Journal of
9 Youth and Adolescence in January of the year 2008. Do you
10 recognize that? You are listed as an author.
10:33:38 11 MR. COURLANG: Object to relevance, Your Honor.
10:33:38 12 THE COURT REPORTER: Stop. Do you recognize...
10:33:39 13 Q. Do you recognize the name of this scholarly
14 article?
10:33:47 15 THE COURT: The objection is overruled at this
16 point, but you need to get to something relevant pretty
17 quick. Go ahead.
10:33:53 18 A. Yes. That was an article I wrote as a doctoral
19 student. And the first author was Dr. Hahm. It was her
20 line of research. And I think that might be one -- maybe
21 there might be one more article on that topic, but that's
22 not my main area of research.
10:34:08 23 Q. Would the conclusions that -- that you reach in
24 here about sexual activities and -- I'm going to read in the
25 abstract, engaging in --

357
10:34:20 1 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, the court reporter can't
2 understand you. You need to speak more clearly and more
3 slowly.
10:34:20 4 MR. FULLER: Okay. Sorry.
10:34:20 5 Q. Why don't I read -- can I just read the abstract?
6 And I'm going to ask you a question just -- just so we get
7 some context -- is that okay? I don't want to be
8 testifying. Or I can give it to you and you can read it if
9 you like. But I can just read it real quick. It's all
10 right?
10:34:40 11 THE COURT: What's the question you want to ask
12 her based on it?
10:34:43 13 MR. FULLER: I want to go back to her comments
14 yesterday saying that she had taken no action basically in
15 her role against the Catholic Church. And I would disagree,
16 and I would like to prove that. There is a lot of --
10:34:54 17 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. You can't go
18 there.
10:34:58 19 BY MR. FULLER:
10:34:58 20 Q. All right. Well, we will talk about something
21 else here that's real nice here. I have a great -- we will
22 talk about House Bill 2. Is it true that you were one of
23 the people that organized a petition to the governor and
24 signed a petition -- yeah -- about House Bill 2?
10:35:20 25 A. I did not organize that petition.

358
10:35:23 1 Q. Did you sign the petition?
10:35:27 2 A. It's likely I did sign a petition against HB2.
10:35:30 3 Q. Is it likely or not? I mean, I have got it right
4 here. I can show it to you.
10:35:34 5 MR. COURLANG: Objection, argumentative, Your
6 Honor.
10:35:38 8 Q. If you could, just answer "yes" or "no." Was this
9 petition something that was signed in the state property at
10 your office or -- or within the facilities of the University
11 of North Carolina?
10:35:55 12 MR. COURLANG: Objection to relevance, Your Honor.
10:36:00 14 Q. Are you familiar with the laws about lobbying the
15 governor when you are a state employee?
10:36:08 18 MR. FULLER: That has already been discussed as
19 part of this case. In fact, their own argument was that my
20 motivation was anger due to the -- the refusal of the public
21 records request related to this lawsuit. It is very
22 relevant on that. He has actually made arguments in writing
23 about this.
10:36:26 24 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
10:36:28 25 MR. FULLER: Okay. Why don't we introduce another

359
1 exhibit, which we will call Exhibit Number 5. I would like
2 to go ahead and give a copy here. We are at -- what --
3 number 5?
5 identification.)
10:36:51 6 THE COURT: You are on number 5, yes, sir.
10:36:55 7 MR. FULLER: Okay. This comes from discovery that
8 was released by the District Attorney's Office, so I'm
9 going -- getting confused -- I'm going to hand one to -- one
10 for the Court, one for the witness.
10:37:07 11 THE COURT: I want you to hand it to Mr. Courlang
12 first --
10:37:11 14 THE COURT: -- so that he can decide whether he
15 objects.
10:37:14 16 MR. FULLER: So this is from -- from the discovery
17 you released to me. It appears to be an e-mail from
18 Ms. Zerden -- sorry, Dr. Zerden.
10:37:41 19 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I would only object --
20 I'll object; I apologize -- to the e-mails not sent by
21 Dr. Zerden on hearsay grounds. There are a number of
22 e-mails in this chain. And I see only one is Dr. Zerden's
23 only e-mail. I would object to everything but Dr. Zerden's.
10:37:58 24 THE COURT: All right. Well, then I'm going to
25 let you ask her questions about it, and I will decide

360
1 whether it's admissible based on the answers.
10:38:03 2 Go ahead.
10:38:04 3 MR. FULLER: On that point, I'll need to object to
4 all the evidence that he has given me. It's all forwarded
5 in the exact same manner that he just objected to. All the
6 State's evidence is the same way. It's forwarded e-mails.
10:38:13 7 THE COURT: That objection is not before this
8 Court at this time.
10:38:17 9 THE WITNESS: I just don't have a copy to read it.
10:38:19 10 THE COURT: Hang on. I'm going to let him ask you
11 questions about it if he wants to.
10:38:23 12 MR. FULLER: Okay. Do you have -- can someone
13 give her --
10:38:26 14 THE COURT: Would you hand her a copy of Exhibit
15 Number 5 please, Mr. Sheriff?
10:38:29 16 (The bailiff complied.)
10:38:30 18 BY MR. FULLER:
10:38:34 19 Q. Is that -- do you recognize this e-mail?
10:38:35 20 A. Yes, I do.
10:38:37 21 Q. Can you tell us what the subject of it is?
10:38:41 22 A. Starting at the top?
10:38:42 23 Q. Yeah.
10:38:44 24 A. It's a forward. And the subject is:
10:38:47 25 [as read] Can Campus block SSW employees from

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1 receiving hateful pornographic e-mails from
2 antitranny.org -- question mark.
10:38:58 3 Q. Has -- I believe that's a -- one of my questions
4 from yesterday. This civil suit that's been filed against
5 you, there are two plaintiffs. I'm one of them. Who is the
6 other plaintiff in that case?
10:39:11 7 THE COURT: Sustained. She has already said she
8 doesn't know, unless you found out overnight.
10:39:16 9 Do you still not know?
10:39:20 10 THE WITNESS: No.
10:39:21 11 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Move on.
10:39:23 12 THE WITNESS: I can find out if we take a minute
13 and I can speak with university counsel, but I don't know.
10:39:28 15 BY MR. FULLER:
10:39:28 16 Q. Okay. So you use the adjectives -- or, rather,
17 someone has forwarded something to you -- and I don't really
18 know who. But now we have the adjectives "hateful,"
19 "pornographic." Where -- where do these adjectives come
20 from? I'm just confused because is there any different
21 (sic) than the way you characterized these e-mails earlier
22 or, rather, I get confused with all these forwarded e-mails.
23 Where -- who started using the word "pornographic"? And can
24 you point to anything in these e-mails that is pornographic
25 under criminal standards? I couldn't find any nudity at all

362
1 in them, not -- not one breast or vagina or penis in there.
2 There's no nudity I could find. I would love for you -- I
3 think we all have copies -- to look it up. I couldn't find
4 any.
10:40:21 5 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object on a few
6 grounds there, Your Honor. I believe it's a multilayered
7 question, and there is testimony by Mr. Fuller --
10:40:29 8 MR. FULLER: Let me rephrase that.
10:40:30 9 Can you please point out --
10:40:30 10 THE COURT: Hang on. The objection to the
11 question you have posed is sustained. Ask your next
12 question.
10:40:36 13 BY MR. FULLER:
10:40:37 14 Q. Mrs. -- I'm sorry, Dr. Zerden, can you please
15 point out in this huge document any pornographic image as it
16 would be understood in a criminal context.
10:40:52 17 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to the
18 "criminal context," Your Honor.
10:40:54 19 THE COURT: Sustained. I'm also going to sustain
20 it as to relevance. It doesn't go to an issue at hand in
21 this case. Please direct your questions to things that are
22 relevant to issues that are to be determined in this trial.
10:41:08 24 BY MR. FULLER:
10:41:09 25 Q. That's a great point. And let's just jump on that

363
1 right now. Let's do that from the top of my head.
10:41:13 2 This whole case, from my understanding -- I'm not
3 a lawyer; but I'm pretty good at it, I will say. I mean, we
4 have been able to do some pretty good work in federal court.
5 But anyway, I won't get into that.
10:41:27 6 But let's -- it's my understanding that this whole
7 case boils down to my intent. Is that your understanding,
8 Mrs. Zerden, that that's the only -- your response to these
9 e-mails doesn't matter; it's only my intentions in sending
10 them is the legal question at stake? Is that --
12 That's a legal --
10:41:49 13 THE COURT: Sustained. It's not proper to ask a
14 witness for a legal conclusion.
10:41:51 15 Q. Okay. Do you -- are you able to read into my
16 mind?
10:41:57 19 Q. So you have to answer.
10:42:00 20 A. No, Mr. Fuller, I cannot read into your mind.
10:42:07 21 Q. Okay. I want to talk to you a little bit about --
22 I have got the -- I'm just going to read a little bit from
23 the United States Department of Justice Civil Rights
24 Division. This is a document -- it's about 15 pages --
25 called Examples and Resources to Support Criminal Justice

364
1 Entities in Compliance with Title II of the Americans With
2 Disabilities Act. You are --
10:42:32 3 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object as to
4 relevance.
10:42:34 5 THE COURT: Let me hear what the question is
6 first.
10:42:38 8 Q. Do you think, or rather, as your professional
9 expertise as a social worker that -- would you agree with
10 the U.S. Department of Justice that mental impairments ought
11 to be taken into account in the decision to assess a
12 possible criminal act from the very beginning? Would you
13 say that's a true or false statement?
10:43:02 14 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to renew my objection,
15 Your Honor.
10:43:07 17 Q. Could I ask just a broad question: What do you
18 hope to get out of this trial?
10:43:11 19 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to that as
20 well, Your Honor.
10:43:13 21 THE COURT: Overruled. It goes to bias.
10:43:17 22 A. I'm going to answer, and you need to not interrupt
23 me.
10:43:20 24 What I hope to get out of this trial? I would
25 like your e-mails to stop. They have been harassing. They

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1 have been unwanted, and they have been numerous. There have
2 been many people involved in this case. You have wasted our
3 time. You have wasted our energy. You have clogged up
4 courts. And we have asked you to stop. We have tried
5 ignoring you. We have tried taking every possible route to
6 get you to stop, and you have not. And so I'm very sorry,
7 but we had to bring this forward in a court of law. And I
8 hope that you are held very accountable for your heinous
9 actions.
10:43:50 10 Q. Okay. We are talking about how many e-mails? I
11 get confused here. How -- how many are there?
10:43:59 12 A. We went through this yesterday, Mr. Fuller, in
13 great detail.
10:44:02 14 Q. Is the answer 12; yes or no?
10:44:07 15 A. There are 12 e-mails, multiple pages --
10:44:07 16 Q. Just say "yes" or "no."
10:44:08 17 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, we can only have one
18 person talking at a time. Don't interrupt her.
10:44:13 20 THE WITNESS: There are 12 e-mails, as we
21 discussed yesterday. There are multiple pages and they are
22 offensive.
10:44:19 23 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, I would ask that -- I'm
24 asking her a question. You must discipline the witness.
10:44:25 25 THE COURT: It's in my discretion as to whether

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1 your yes-or-no question is susceptible to merely a "yes" or
2 "no" or whether it is subject to being explained. I find
3 that that question requires explanation. The witness has
4 explained. Ask your next question.
10:44:40 5 Q. Am I on trial for these 12 witnesses (sic) or
6 something else -- these 12 e-mails or some other matters?
10:44:47 7 A. You are on trial for the 12 e-mails that you sent
8 me and for being responsible for what you have done.
10:44:52 9 Q. And -- and let's be clear, allegedly sent -- sent.
10:44:57 10 I want to ask you: Have you -- with all the IT
11 experts, has there been any IP addresses that have been
12 traced to me? (Indiscernable) Any at all?
10:45:07 13 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. What was that
14 last question?
10:45:07 15 Q. Have there been any IP addresses that have been
16 traced to me that have been admitted into evidence?
10:45:18 17 A. Mr. Fuller, I'm not an IT expert. I don't work
18 for campus IT. I can't answer that question. On the one
19 hand, you say that it's your free speech and you have the
20 ability to send these to us. On the other hand, you claim
21 you don't know who sent them. Those are two totally
22 different arguments.
10:45:35 23 Q. I have a second question, speaking of not knowing
24 who sent them. You have used this wonderful thing called a
25 "blind carbon copy" and able to get into evidence things

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1 that you admit aren't even to you. Do you think someone
2 should be criminally held accountable when you are not able
3 to show any shred of evidence that you were even involved in
4 the e-mails?
10:45:59 5 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to that, Your
6 Honor.
10:46:01 7 Q. There -- there is no evidence at all.
10:46:05 9 Q. Have you made -- yes or no -- have you used the
10 theory of blind carbon copies to explain why you can't show
11 any documentation of -- of contact between me and you? Have
12 you used that in this sworn testimony; yes or no?
14 Honor.
10:46:27 16 A. It's not a -- it's not a theory, Mr. Fuller. I
17 received these e-mails to my e-mail address, and that's what
18 I presented forward as truth.
10:46:34 19 Q. And speaking of truth, on July 11th you were sued
20 for a $9.75 million, alleging that you committed perjury.
21 Have you countered that with a counterclaim --
10:46:48 22 MR. COURLANG: Objection, asked and answered, Your
23 Honor, yesterday.
10:46:51 25 Q. Did you not state yesterday that the defendant,

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1 Mr. Fuller, had sued the Town of Chapel Hill?
10:47:07 3 Q. Have you been credible with the jury and with --
4 with us under oath --
10:47:12 6 Q. -- yes or no?
10:47:13 7 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of that
8 question.
10:47:19 9 Q. Have you ever told a lie?
10:47:26 10 I have. I think everyone has. Go ahead and say
11 "yes."
10:47:29 12 A. Not under a court of law and not under oath. And
13 everything that I presented here is true and factual. What
14 do I gain out of being here? You have wasted my time. You
15 have wasted my energy. You have taken away time from my
16 family, from my work, from my duties, from my
17 responsibilities, from my research. I have nothing to gain
18 by being here.
10:47:48 19 Q. Have you ever received a herbal Viagra e-mail that
20 comes in -- I get those occasionally. I don't need to use
21 them. I have got a stag (sic) of family of my own. But
22 have you ever gotten one of those e-mails like that of
23 herbal Viagra e-mail?
10:48:01 24 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to relevance,
25 Your Honor.

369
10:48:02 2 Q. Have you ever received any spam e-mail you didn't
3 like? Have you ever received an e-mail like that before?
10:48:10 4 A. Certainly, I have received spam e-mail. But they
5 are not filled with hateful, personalized attacks against my
6 colleagues, my coworkers, my school, my place of employment.
7 That's different from spam.
10:48:22 8 Q. Is it a possible response to an unwanted e-mail
9 simply not to open it? Is that a response that many
10 reasonable people would have; yes or no?
10:48:32 11 MR. COURLANG: Object to the form, Your Honor.
10:48:34 13 Q. Have you ever not opened an e-mail?
10:48:39 14 A. I'm sure I've missed e-mails, yes.
10:48:43 15 Q. Why do you open the e-mails that bother you so
16 much, and you open them so many times? You just open them
17 all day long, day after day.
19 Honor.
10:48:59 21 Q. Are you on any medications or are you being
22 treated for any psychiatric problems that we should be aware
23 of that are affecting your mental outlook?
10:49:08 25 MR. FULLER: That's a legitimate question.

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10:49:10 1 THE COURT: Overruled. She can answer.
10:49:12 2 THE WITNESS: No, I have no meditations that I
3 take; and I have never been diagnosed with a psychiatric
4 condition.
10:49:17 6 Q. Have you been crying in the hallways during
7 this -- this case?
10:49:23 8 A. No, I haven't.
10:49:31 9 Q. Let me pull up -- or let's see here. Maybe we can
10 take a short recess, and I will get my -- all my stuff
11 together; but we are going to go into a different direction.
12 I just need a little more time.
10:49:40 13 THE COURT: What direction do you intend to head?
10:49:44 14 MR. FULLER: I got her -- her wonderful resumé
15 that I think has got some wonderful things in there that
16 I --
10:49:49 17 THE COURT: I'm not going to let you get into
18 that.
10:49:52 19 MR. FULLER: Okay. Well, let me just -- I don't
20 want to get -- I'm sure that there are a few more matters
21 here.
10:50:00 22 BY MR. FULLER:
10:50:00 23 Q. Oh, I wanted to ask you one thing. I was doing
24 some background research on you. Are you a member of any
25 boards?

371
10:50:07 1 A. Yes.
10:50:08 2 Q. Are those involved in -- I guess -- transgender
3 rights advocacy?
10:50:17 4 A. I'm on the board of the North Carolina Harm
5 Reduction Coalition.
10:50:22 6 Q. Does that website contain with its links -- and I
7 was on that site -- pictures of nude "trannies" on there?
10:50:34 8 MR. COURLANG: Objection, Your Honor, to the form.
10:50:37 10 Q. Or -- I'm sorry. I've used -- the proper polite
11 term would be: Do you have pictures of transgendered
12 individuals showing their genitalia on -- on this board that
13 you are on?
10:50:51 14 A. I haven't been on the website in a few months. I
15 can't imagine that we would have genitalia on the website.
16 But the Harm Reduction Coalition is a national organization.
17 We are a North Carolina chapter across all counties to help
18 with harm reduction --
10:51:05 19 Q. I -- I --
10:51:05 20 A. -- and drug overdose prevention in North Carolina.
21 That's our mission and purpose. And we don't discriminate
22 against anyone who is a drug user, who is of any race or
23 creed or gender or orientation. And so that's why there
24 might have been information about transgender resources on
25 that website.

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10:51:22 1 Q. So that's a great thing you just brought up,
2 discrimination on races and creeds. You don't think -- I
3 will just ask you: Do you discriminate against orthodox
4 Roman Catholics; yes or no?
10:51:37 5 A. Do I discriminate against them? No, of course
6 not.
10:51:41 7 Q. Not even a tiny bit?
10:51:46 8 A. No. Which --
10:51:47 9 Q. Okay. That's great because I was looking at the
10 faculty -- it's the biggest religion in the world, you know,
11 around 1.5 billion -- are there any members of your faculty
12 that would be practicing Roman Catholics that they would
13 adhere to the sexual teachings of the Church --
10:52:05 16 Q. -- in social work?
10:52:07 17 A. When he says "sustained," I don't have to answer.
10:52:09 18 Q. Okay. I -- I looked up the social work, sort of,
19 mantra. The -- I think you have spoken to the national. I
20 actually looked up their rules and things. And they
21 actually, if -- if I'm -- remember correctly -- is it true
22 that they require acceptance of the transgender ideology to
23 be a member of the social work, kind of, professional group?
24 Is that true or false?
10:52:31 25 A. Nondiscrimination and bias is just a part of the

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1 social work ethics and ethos. We would not discriminate
2 against anyone who is a Roman Catholic or anyone who was
3 transgender or Jewish or black or yellow. It would be
4 against our code of ethics.
10:52:45 5 Q. So what happens when a Roman Catholic cannot
6 believe in the transgender ideology? That's what just gets
7 me confused. You just said you can't discriminate. So what
8 happens in that situation? In fact, I have a
9 wonderful thing --
10:52:57 10 THE COURT REPORTER: I cannot keep up with him.
10:53:00 12 Mr. Fuller, I'm going to require you to stick to
13 topics that are relevant.
10:53:05 15 THE COURT: We have gone down this road --
10:53:06 17 THE COURT: -- as far as I'm going to let you go.
10:53:08 18 MR. FULLER: Right. Right.
10:53:08 19 THE COURT: Move on to a different topic.
10:53:08 20 BY MR. FULLER:
10:53:09 21 Q. Okay. So in this document in the UK -- it was
22 about how to get people along, Muslims and Catholics, and
23 Orthodox Jewish people. It said in there that -- that it's
24 a good -- I just wanted to ask: Do you agree it's true or
25 false that it's a good idea to be respectful of how people

374
1 might be -- the privacy of their nudity in public restrooms?
2 That was a recommendation in the UK, and it goes to this
3 HB2. Would you agree that that guidance is correct?
10:53:43 6 Mr. Fuller, I have told you what the relevant
7 issues are in this case, and I have just about decided that
8 you are willfully disobeying my order about sticking --
10:53:55 10 THE COURT: -- to relevant topics.
10:53:57 11 MR. FULLER: Yes. I will --
10:53:57 12 THE COURT: I will let you move to a different
13 topic --
10:53:59 15 THE COURT: -- but get off that one.
10:54:00 16 MR. FULLER: Okay. I will. I will move to a
17 different topic.
10:54:02 18 BY MR. FULLER:
10:54:02 19 Q. There is so many people in these e-mails -- I'm
20 just going to kind of broadly -- I'm -- list of names and I
21 just want to kind of get the lay of the land of who all
22 these characters are. I'm just going to say a name. I just
23 want you to talk about how he is involved in all of these
24 e-mail chains.

375
10:54:17 1 Q. Who is Gary L. Bowen?
10:54:19 2 A. Gary L. Bowen is the Dean of the School of Social
3 Work.
10:54:25 4 Q. And I want you to -- specifically in the context
5 of this investigation -- I mean, he has made all these
6 comments. I'm not going to get into them all. But can you
7 just tell me: Why in the world is he involved in this
8 thing?
10:54:36 9 A. Sure. So there are multiple people in higher
10 administration in the School. Gary Bowen is the Dean of the
11 entire School of Social Work. I am the Senior Associate
12 Dean of the Masters Program. I am the second in command.
13 Gary is my supervisor, and so he is the Dean of the School
14 at UNC.
10:54:52 15 Q. But -- but you are not answering my question. I'm
16 saying: Why is he involved? Basically, it would appear to
17 be encouraging my prosecution?
10:54:59 18 A. I'm not --
10:55:00 19 MR. COURLANG: Objection. Asked and answered.
10:55:02 20 MR. FULLER: She didn't answer that.
10:55:03 22 BY MR. FULLER:
10:55:05 23 Q. Well, you didn't answer the question.
10:55:07 24 But anyway, I will ask you another one. Who is
25 Skurky, Neera Makwana?

376
10:55:14 1 A. That person is a former lawyer with University
2 Counsel.
10:55:17 3 Q. Did she get fired over this?
10:55:20 4 A. Absolutely not.
10:55:22 7 Q. So you -- you know that she did not get fired.
8 That's interesting.
10:55:27 10 Q. Okay. Who is a Ms. Lewis, Kristen Simonsen? She
11 has a lot of contact with you. Who is she?
10:55:34 12 A. Ms. Lewis is a lawyer at University Counsel. I
13 was initially sending the communications to the team at
14 University Counsel. However, because this is a criminal
15 case, I then directed all of my communication to the DA's
16 Office with Mr. Courlang and his staff.
10:55:49 17 Q. And then that's an important thing because I
18 believe Mr. Courlang's wife actually works at UNC; right?
10:55:57 21 MR. FULLER: Is there any relevance where I can
22 examine the DA's contact? I mean, he has --
10:56:02 23 THE COURT: There is not.
10:56:03 24 MR. FULLER: Okay. Well, you are going to have to
25 disregard that.

377
10:56:07 2 Q. Anyway, who is a -- this guy Barbee? I mean, he
3 didn't even know what the First Amendment was. It seemed to
4 me that -- I would assume that you were telling him what to
5 do. Would that be correct, that you were kind of his boss?
10:56:25 8 Q. Can you estimate how -- how many e-mails you sent
9 to Barbee over the 12 e-mails? Would it be more than 12 or
10 less than 12? You get 12 e-mails; how many you going to
11 send to the police?
10:56:37 12 A. It was much more than 12 because I was sending
13 everything you sent me and then everything the students, the
14 staff, the faculty were sending me. I made sure that
15 Detective Barbee was keeping record of them as well.
10:56:47 16 Q. Okay. And -- and back to keeping record, you have
17 instructed everyone at the School not to just either
18 unsubscribe, which -- it has an unsubscribe button. You
19 told them that they shouldn't do that, they should not
20 unsubscribe; is that correct?
10:57:06 21 MR. COURLANG: Objection, asked and answered
22 yesterday, Your Honor.
10:57:09 24 Q. Okay. All right. So let's go through the cast of
25 characters or -- did -- did y'all bring in law school

378
1 experts in this case?
10:57:20 2 A. Not to my knowledge, not with me.
10:57:24 3 Q. You don't have any direct knowledge of that?
10:57:27 4 About how many different lawyers at the University
5 of North Carolina Office of Counsel were -- were involved in
6 this so-called criminal investigation?
10:57:40 7 A. I don't know. I worked primarily with the DA's
8 Office.
10:57:44 9 Q. The -- the -- I'm just looking at e-mails. Do you
10 think -- or I will just ask you: Do you think the DA's
11 Office would give you, as the superior assistant dean,
12 special -- a special prominence?
10:58:03 14 Q. Do you think they would treat you differently than
15 other people in Orange County?
10:58:13 17 Q. Does the defendant have his own police force that
18 he can get thrown in jail; yes or no?
10:58:22 21 MR. FULLER: Okay. Why don't we take a recess? I
22 still have more. We -- we need to go through a few more
23 items here. Oh, yes, of course, we have to go through the
24 e-mails. We have to get through all of those. I want to
25 read those all into the record. We need to consider them in

379
1 the entirety, not just cherry picking. And I want to make
2 it clear --
10:58:38 3 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller -- Mr. Fuller --
10:58:40 5 THE COURT: -- the e-mails are in evidence. The
6 jury has them to read. I'm not going to allow you to read
7 them all into the record, but I will certainly allow you to
8 ask her questions about them. Go ahead.
10:58:52 9 MR. FULLER: Okay. In that case --
10:58:52 10 THE COURT: Let me make sure. Do the jurors still
11 have their copy of State's Exhibit Number 3?
10:58:58 12 A JUROR: Yes.
10:58:58 13 THE COURT: Okay. You are free to ask her
14 questions about State's Exhibit Number 3.
10:59:02 15 MR. FULLER: Should we take a break or do you want
16 to keep rocking and rolling here?
10:59:07 17 THE COURT: Do you need a break?
10:59:08 18 MR. FULLER: I think that would be good, yeah.
10:59:10 19 THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, we will
20 take our morning recess. Since we have already had
21 something of a recess, let's limit this one to ten minutes.
22 Be back, ready to proceed, in ten minutes. Remember the
23 rules. We will see you in ten minutes.

380
1 the jury.)
10:59:59 2 THE COURT: You can step down, ma'am.
11:00:01 3 The jury is absent.
11:00:03 4 Mr. Fuller, I really want you to be able to
5 present your defense; but there are some limits to that.
6 So at some point, I'm going to make you stop asking
7 questions. So I would ask you to please keep my rulings in
8 mind and get to the relevant point before I stop you.
11:00:26 9 MR. FULLER: I -- I --
11:00:27 10 THE COURT: That's all. I just --
11:00:28 11 MR. FULLER: Okay. Yeah.
11:00:29 12 THE COURT: -- I don't want to prohibit you from
13 asking legitimate questions, but you haven't asked a
14 legitimate question in some time now.
11:00:37 15 MR. FULLER: The relevant points, I don't even
16 understand because I can't testify on my behalf.
11:00:43 17 THE COURT: You can if you want to. That's
18 completely up to you.
11:00:45 19 MR. FULLER: Well, you stopped me.
11:00:45 20 THE COURT: When it's your turn. You can't
21 testify during your questioning of the witness.
11:00:48 22 MR. FULLER: Oh, okay.
11:00:49 23 But the larger issue here is: What is my intent?
24 And I think that the -- the hour audio tape made it pretty
25 clear. I mean, I don't know why they put that into

381
1 evidence. I don't know why it was relevant. It was all in
2 my behalf, so I think that's already in. I'm just going to
3 ask some questions just to straighten it out because we
4 have a ton of religious stuff to go through here.
11:01:10 5 THE COURT: It's a little bit difficult for the
6 Court to understand how her perceptions of what you sent her
7 has anything to do with your purpose.
11:01:19 8 MR. FULLER: Well, when the Court is ready to make
9 its decision on that motion, I'm ready to stop, so you can
10 just tell me.
11:01:24 11 THE COURT: You talking about the motion to
12 dismiss?
11:01:26 13 MR. FULLER: That's correct.
11:01:26 14 THE COURT: I'm going to rule on your motion to
15 dismiss at the close of the State's evidence.
11:01:31 17 THE COURT: Okay?
11:01:32 18 MR. FULLER: Yes. Yes, Your Honor.
11:01:33 19 THE COURT: All right. We will be back in ten
20 minutes. Thank you.
24 assistant, Beka Rose; Investigator Ross Barbee.)
11:13:08 25 (Napier Sandford Fuller entered the courtroom at 11:13

382
1 a.m.)
11:13:13 3 THE COURT: You are fine. I understand. All
4 right. Mr. Fuller is present in the courtroom. The State
5 is present. The jury is absent.
11:13:19 6 Mr. Fuller, are you ready to proceed?
11:13:21 7 MR. FULLER: Yes. I'll just give you a quick
8 outline. I know we've got to wrap up.
11:13:21 10 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't keep up.
11:13:21 11 MR. FULLER: I'm going to finish up. We are --
11:13:25 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are frustrating the
13 court reporter. I know --
11:13:29 14 MR. FULLER: Yeah, I'm sorry.
11:13:29 15 THE COURT: -- I know you are anxious, but you
16 need to slow down --
11:13:34 17 MR. FULLER: Slow down. Okay. I ran Steeplechase
18 in college, so let's see here.
11:13:36 19 So I will give you an outline because I think it's
20 good to have an outline. I'm going to ask a few questions
21 about this. I'm not going to make it read into the record,
22 but I would love to do so. We did that in my court. We
23 always did that because you force people -- they won't read
24 stuff if you just give it to them.
11:13:55 25 But anyway, we are going to go through this, maybe

383
DISCUSS ORDER OF PROCEDURE/FULLER
1 20 -- 20 minutes. And then I want to recall Barbee. I
2 think that will be it. And I guess the State will rest its
3 case at this point, I assume.
11:14:08 5 MR. FULLER: We don't do closing arguments or
6 anything; it's just --
11:14:12 7 THE COURT: Well, here is what happens. The
8 State, when it decides to rest, will rest.
11:14:17 10 THE COURT: Then I will entertain any motions that
11 you have at that time.
11:14:21 13 THE COURT: Then you get to decide, based on my
14 rulings, whether you are going to testify and whether you
15 are going to offer evidence. And then you do whatever you
16 decide. Those are your choices.
11:14:30 17 MR. FULLER: Okay. Great.
11:14:31 18 THE COURT: And then when the evidence is
19 complete --
11:14:35 21 THE COURT: -- we will have a charge conference,
22 which means that I will confer with you and the State and
23 hear your arguments about what the jury instructions should
24 be.
11:14:44 25 MR. FULLER: So, you are not going to dismiss

384
1 this?
11:14:47 2 THE COURT: Well, I haven't decided yet. I'm just
3 telling you what happens in what order if we get there.
4 That's always the caveat. If we get there, we will have a
5 charge conference; and then I will hear from you about what
6 the jury instructions should be. I will hear from the State
7 about what the jury instructions will be, and then I will
8 decide. I will print a copy of those so you will have them
9 for your closing argument, and then we will have closing
10 arguments.
11:15:09 11 MR. FULLER: Okay. Just on that point, I really
12 wanted the Grotsky report from the State to come into
13 evidence. And so if we get to the point where I'm putting
14 on evidence, I would like to subpoena him and have him here
15 since he spent hours with me and he is the one that can
16 comment on my intent. It would be very easy if the Court
17 would just allow it. I get confused whether you have
18 allowed it or not. I don't understand.
11:15:31 19 THE COURT: I will get to that if and when you
20 propound that evidence.
11:15:33 22 THE COURT: We may not even get there.
11:15:36 24 THE COURT: I don't like to -- I don't like to do
25 advisory rulings.

385
11:15:39 2 THE COURT: I'm trying to help you understand what
3 we are doing. But other than that, I rule when I rule; and
4 I rule when it's time. All right.
11:15:48 5 Bring the jury back please.
8 of the jury.)
11:17:47 9 MR. FULLER: Can I say something?
11:17:48 11 MR. FULLER: I'd like to put up an image on the
12 screens. Can I do that? It's the -- it's that antitranny
13 image that we've referred to.
11:18:00 14 THE COURT: Is it in State's Exhibit Number 3?
11:18:01 15 MR. FULLER: It's not in color. I'm a graphic
16 designer so I always like beautiful color.
11:18:08 17 THE COURT: The answer to your question, may you
18 do that, is yes. Can you do that, I don't know because I
19 don't know how to work the technology in here.
11:18:15 20 Madam Clerk, if you will, assist him in somehow
21 getting that up.
11:18:19 22 MR. FULLER: I have the USB.
11:18:21 23 THE COURT: Are you hooked into the --
11:18:23 24 MR. FULLER: I will give her a USB.
11:18:27 25 THE COURT: -- system?

386
11:18:27 1 MR. FULLER: It will have the file on it. She can
2 just pop it right in.
11:18:27 3 THE COURT: No, we are not going to put a USB into
4 our computer. That's not the way it works.
11:18:34 5 MR. FULLER: Okay. I'm unclear --
11:18:34 6 THE COURT: Can you -- can you hook up your laptop
7 to our system?
11:18:38 8 MR. FULLER: I got fancy ones. These are not
9 going to connect.
11:18:42 10 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to allow you to do it;
11 but I'm not an IT expert. I can't -- I don't know what to
12 tell you.
11:18:49 13 MR. FULLER: If Madam Clerk --
11:18:50 14 THE COURT: If you can figure out how to do it,
15 you can do it.
11:18:52 16 MR. FULLER: If I can send her an e-mail --
11:18:53 17 THE CLERK: (Inaudible.)
11:18:56 18 THE COURT: Okay. Her computer -- yeah -- there
19 is a way to hook up your laptop apparently. In every
20 courtroom I have ever been in, you plug in -- I don't know
21 what you call it because I'm --
11:19:07 23 THE COURT: -- I am a Luddite when it comes to
24 audio-visual technology.
11:19:11 25 MR. FULLER: Okay. Oh, yeah. Well, I --

387
11:19:13 1 THE COURT: Somebody else always does that for me.
11:19:16 2 MR. FULLER: Yeah. It's an Aris, so it doesn't
3 have the right attachment. But what about as a solution,
4 I'll pull it up here and maybe I can just show it? You can
5 see it in color.
11:19:24 6 THE COURT: I will let the sheriff take it over
7 there and show it to them.
11:19:26 9 THE COURT: That would be great. Sure.
11:19:41 10 MR. FULLER: Oh, here it is. I've actually -- I
11 just found it.
11:19:45 13 MR. FULLER: I believe we have a few exhibits,
14 maybe I could pass it around or something? There are three
15 of these.
11:19:51 16 THE COURT: Is that --
11:19:53 17 MR. FULLER: This is the symbol that she objects
18 to.
11:19:56 19 THE COURT: All right. If you would, mark that as
20 Defendant's Exhibit Number 6; and I will receive that in
21 evidence as an illustrative aid that tends to illustrate a
22 portion of State's Exhibit Number 3.
11:20:15 23 Ladies and gentlemen, an illustrative aid is just
24 that. It's offered by the defendant to illustrate a
25 portion of State's Exhibit Number 3. You are to

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1 consider -- consider it only to the extent that you find
2 that it does so illustrate, and you may consider it for
3 that purpose only.
11:20:32 4 All right. Mr. Sheriff, if you would please
5 assist Mr. Fuller in -- you don't have 12 copies, just pass
6 around as many as you got.
11:20:40 7 And it's -- Defense Number 6 is received into
8 evidence for illustrative purposes.
10 identification.)
12 evidence.)
11:20:48 13 MR. FULLER: Another question, question for the
14 witness --
11:20:50 15 THE COURT: Yeah, hang on. Let them look at it,
16 what you are talking about, first.
11:20:55 17 BAILIFF NEIGHBOURS: Do you need a copy of it?
11:20:57 18 THE COURT: No. Thank you.
11:20:58 19 You can go ahead and pass that one around too so
20 everybody has seen it.
11:21:04 21 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 6 was published to the jury
22 by passing physically through the jury box.)
11:21:17 25 Q. Ms. Zerden --

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11:21:19 1 A. Dr. Zerden.
11:21:19 2 Q. I'm sorry. Dr. Zerden, you serve on a board that
3 promotes transgender ideology. Do you think it is lawful
4 that there are groups --
11:21:28 5 MR. COURLANG: Objection to the testimony, Your
6 Honor.
11:21:31 8 Q. -- that are against transgendered ideology, that
9 there could be a legal group to be formed for that mission?
10 Do you think that is a lawful entity that would be engaged
11 in anti-transgender activism?
11:21:49 12 THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer that.
11:21:51 13 A. Do I think there could be a group for
14 anti-transgender? If people choose to form that group or be
15 in that group.
11:22:00 16 Q. We heard testimony that I founded such a group,
17 and this is it. It's called antitranny.org. Is it your
18 opinion or do you have knowledge of how many people are
19 involved with this group?
11:22:15 20 A. I have no idea. It's not a group I would like to
21 be a part of.
11:22:22 22 Q. It's tag line is "telling the truth about
23 transgender."
11:22:28 24 In your opinion, as an academic, is it good or bad
25 to have a robust debate about science and human sexuality?

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1 Is that good or bad?
11:22:43 2 A. In my line of work, we obviously have civil
3 discourse and debate and people can have varying opinions
4 and support different evidence to hold their opinion.
11:22:54 5 In this case, this was not a debate. This was not
6 an engaged discussion between two people. This was a
7 one-sided conversation that Mr. Fuller continued to push on
8 me. I did not engage back. I did not respond. I did not
9 ask to have a debate with him. This was something that he
10 continually sent to me. And based on his communications, I
11 think that is why we are here today, because he was
12 harassing me; and it falls under the statute of
13 cyberstalking.
11:23:20 14 Q. And that's a great phrase. You said you didn't
15 engage back or respond. But yet you had the defendant
16 arrested and thrown into jail; isn't that true?
11:23:30 18 THE COURT: Overruled -- I mean, excuse me.
19 Sustained.
11:23:34 20 Q. Can -- can you expound upon what you said that you
21 didn't respond to -- to the -- an anti-transgender
22 organization? I'm a little confused because it would appear
23 that you did respond. You explain in your own words how you
24 didn't respond to the antitranny.organization.
11:23:56 25 A. I didn't respond to you, Mr. Fuller, because I

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1 didn't think it warranted my attention or time or detail. I
2 took it to the authorities, and I took it up through the
3 university channels in order to handle the situation. If
4 you are suffering the consequences or repercussions of your
5 criminal activity, that is something that's on you. And
6 it's not on me for taking it through the proper channels.
11:24:19 7 Q. That's a great thing. You just said that -- from
8 my understanding what you just said, it was the university
9 channels somehow that are pushing this. Can you -- can you
10 specifically name names of who -- who -- what are these
11 university channels? And who are the people involved with
12 it?
11:24:31 13 A. We have already heard from those people.
14 Detective Barbee talked about how he received contact from
15 me, and I told him what was happening, and Detective Barbee
16 is the one that suggested that we take it to the DA's Office
17 because this falls outside of the statute of university
18 policies and it crossed the line into different laws around
19 cyberstalking. And so that's how we moved from the
20 university system into the DA system.
11:24:54 21 Q. Would you say that -- that that friend that you
22 talked to in Yiddish, Ronni -- would she be part of that
23 channel too?
11:25:01 24 A. I am Ronni's supervisor, so Ronni is kind of a
25 level, you know, below me in terms of an organizational

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1 chain or chart.
11:25:11 2 Q. Yeah. And that's a great point. You bring up a
3 lot of these hierarchal structures. Are you familiar with
4 Attention Deficit Disorder? Do you know anything about --
5 about that disorder and -- and how people respond to those
6 in authority? Did you respond -- do you understand that
7 some people with disabilities do not like those in authority
8 when they are bossy? Did you understand that there are
9 people that exist in the world that kind of just don't like
10 bossy people as a social worker, of course, being in charge
11 of social matters?
11:25:47 12 A. Mr. Fuller, if my confidence, my competence is
13 coming off as bossy, then sobeit. I am a skilled
14 professional. I am at the level of my job because of my
15 skill and my aptitude, so I don't appreciate being called
16 bossy. But if you would like to, then go ahead. Call me
17 bossy. I don't really care whether you have a dislike of
18 people in authority. University structures are such that
19 it's hierarchal, very hierarchal within the larger
20 university, within each individual school unit. And that's
21 just the way it works. Most organizations actually do work
22 on a hierarchal nature, and it's very rare that you are
23 going to find a completely flat organization that doesn't
24 have hierarchy.
11:26:32 25 Q. That's interesting. I do a lot of work at MIT,

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1 and my professor talks about sex all the time in a funny
2 way. Are y'all informal like that or is it just so
3 hierarchal in the social work?
11:26:47 4 MR. COURLANG: Objection, your Honor.
11:26:48 6 Q. Okay. Anyway, moving along. I just wanted to
7 make it clear that this organization has sued you and --
8 and -- because you were a little confused about that, but it
9 is a legal entity.
11:26:54 10 MR. COURLANG: Objection to testimony.
11:26:56 12 Q. And so I just wanted to point that out, that there
13 are two -- anyway.
11:26:59 14 Let's talk about e-mails real quick, and then we
15 will wrap it up. I think everybody is getting tired. I
16 think we kind of want to get wrapped up here. But let's
17 talk about some of these e-mails here. So let's just go
18 through them real quick. I would have loved for everyone to
19 have read all of this.
11:27:23 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller --
11:27:24 21 MR. FULLER: Sorry.
11:27:25 22 THE COURT: -- please limit your editorial
23 comments. I need you to ask her questions please.
11:27:30 24 MR. FULLER: Yes.
11:27:30 25 BY MR. FULLER:

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11:27:30 1 Q. Okay. Let's talk about this e-mail number 1. Go
2 find some -- point to some criminal activity in e-mail
3 number 1. You tell me where it's a crime.
11:27:42 4 MR. COURLANG: I object to that, Your Honor.
11:27:47 6 Q. What irked you about e-mail number 1 so much that
7 it was sent to the police?
11:27:59 8 A. You had come on our radar, Mr. Fuller, because of
9 your communication to other faculty and staff; and I was
10 directed to forward any communication that you had with me
11 or anyone else at the School of Social Work to university
12 police. And that's exactly why I started forwarding your
13 e-mails along.
11:28:16 14 MR. FULLER: I would like to approach the bench
15 over an issue.
11:28:18 16 THE COURT: Sure. Come on up.
11:28:49 19 THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going
20 to ask everyone other than Ms. Campbell to go in the jury
21 room for just a minute. I have a question I need to ask
22 Ms. Campbell.
11:29:08 23 Remember the rules. I will call you right back
24 out here in just a minute. Don't get too comfortable in
25 there. This isn't going to take too long, I don't think.

395
11:29:45 1 (All jurors except Juror Number One left the courtroom
2 at 11:29 a.m., and the following proceedings were had
3 out of the presence of the jury.)
11:29:48 4 THE COURT: All the jurors except Ms. Campbell are
5 absent.
11:29:50 6 Ms. Campbell, have you been awake the whole time
7 during testimony today?
11:29:55 8 JUROR NO. ONE: Absolutely.
11:29:55 9 THE COURT: All right. Were there times that you
10 had your eyes closed?
11:29:57 11 JUROR NO. ONE: Only if I'm listening because my
12 hearing is a little -- I have a hearing deficiency.
11:30:01 13 THE COURT: Okay. Have you been paying careful
14 attention?
11:30:04 16 THE COURT: And you have heard all the evidence?
11:30:07 18 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to ask you to go into
19 the jury room for just a minute. Thank you very much.
11:30:13 20 JUROR NO. ONE: Okay. Thank you.
11:30:14 21 (Juror Number One left the courtroom and the following
22 proceedings were had out of the presence of all of the
23 jurors.)
11:30:24 24 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that
25 Mr. Fuller, when he approached the bench, asked -- or he

396
1 believed that Ms. Campbell, because she had her eyes closed,
2 perhaps might have been asleep or not paying attention.
3 Based on his request at the bench, I excused all the jurors
4 except Ms. Campbell and asked her the questions that I just
5 asked her and got the responses that I got. The defendant's
6 motion to remove Ms. Campbell and replace her with the
7 alternate is denied.
11:30:53 8 Okay. Come on back. Bring the jury back please.
11 of the jury.)
11:31:37 12 THE COURT: All right. The jury is present in the
13 courtroom.
11:31:39 14 Mr. Fuller, you may proceed.
11:31:40 15 BY MR. FULLER:
11:31:40 16 Q. Okay. So we are talking about e-mail number 1. I
17 guess I will just throw it out. What aspect of this e-mail
18 warrants someone being thrown in jail for 60 days?
11:31:50 21 Q. What part of this e-mail resulted in you making a
22 criminal complaint?
11:31:58 23 A. As I mentioned, Mr. Fuller, you had been
24 contacting my colleagues since July --
11:32:04 25 Q. We are talking about this e-mail number 1.

397
11:32:06 1 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, don't interrupt her.
11:32:08 2 Yes, ma'am.
11:32:08 3 A. You were on our radar as someone who was sending
4 the harassing e-mails. And so when I started receiving
5 them, because you have been harassing Laurie Selz-Campbell
6 since --
11:32:15 7 MR. FULLER: Judge, she is not answering the
8 question. Please redirect her.
11:32:17 9 A. -- July 2016, I forwarded on to Detective Barbee,
10 as I previously explained.
11:32:22 11 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, she is not answering the
12 question. It's very important which part of this --
11:32:26 13 THE COURT: Ask the question again please. I want
14 to make sure I understand exactly what it is.
11:32:30 15 MR. FULLER: I asked which part of this e-mail
16 number 1 does she believe is criminal that warranted her to
17 make a criminal complaint about it.
11:32:40 18 MR. COURLANG: Objection, Your Honor,
19 mischaracterization of the evidence.
11:32:43 20 THE COURT: It is a mischaracterization. And,
21 Mr. Fuller, the e-mails are to be considered as a whole.
22 Might not necessarily be any one individual thing in any of
23 them that's criminal.
11:33:00 25 BY MR. FULLER:

398
11:33:01 1 Q. Would it be correct to say that you -- you have
2 not put forth to the jury that there is any criminal
3 activity within this e-mail. Is that a true or false
4 statement?
11:33:13 5 THE COURT: Sustained. That calls for a legal
6 conclusion.
11:33:18 7 Q. In informal terms, what specifically about e-mail
8 number 1 gets your goat, as it were?
11:33:28 9 A. Mister --
11:33:31 10 Q. Makes you angry?
11:33:31 11 A. Mr. Fuller, as the Judge just said, these e-mails
12 are in totality, in a package. The spacing and timing and
13 sequencing of them is what is so disturbing. It is not one
14 individual e-mail.
11:33:45 15 Q. Okay. So I will assume that nothing bothered you
16 in that one.
11:33:48 17 Let's go to number 2 here. This one relates to
18 the --
11:33:54 19 THE COURT REPORTER: Relates to the what?
11:33:59 20 Q. -- the lobbying laws of the State of North
21 Carolina, specific statute 120C-502. Is it true or false
22 that you have been involved in lobbying the Governor of the
23 State of North Carolina? True or false?

399
11:34:17 1 Q. All right. Is it true or false that you signed a
2 petition that was submitted to the governor?
11:34:27 3 MR. COURLANG: Objection; too broad.
11:34:32 5 Q. Have you ever signed a petition?
11:34:34 6 A. Yes.
11:34:35 7 Q. Okay. What specific parts of -- of this e-mail
8 did you -- get your goat, as it were, e-mail number 2?
9 It's -- it's the beginning of the statute law, I believe,
10 Section 120C-502 on down to Section 603.
11:35:02 11 A. Quite frankly, Mr. Fuller, everything that gets my
12 goat about your e-mail starts with you as the sender.
13 Seeing your name gets my goat. Seeing your name is what
14 upsets me because I did not want to get the communications
15 from you.
11:35:13 16 Q. Sure. That's an important point because this
17 whole lawsuit is about my intent, not your response.
11:35:19 18 MR. COURLANG: Objection; argumentative.
11:35:22 20 Q. Okay. Let's go to e-mail -- number 3 is one that
21 really did get your goat. We'll skip over that one and go
22 to number 4. That's a great one here. Let's talk about
23 number 4 here. There is a picture of an African from Guana.
24 His name is Cardinal Sarah. In our arbitration, we
25 discussed this -- do you mind reading the quotes in bold

400
1 under this Cardinal to -- to the jury here?
11:35:54 2 A. This part here?
11:35:55 3 Q. Yes. Can you read that paragraph in full? Can
4 you read --
11:35:57 5 A. I mean, they have it. Do you need me to read it?
11:36:03 6 Q. Yes. Yes. I want you to read it into the record.
7 Yes.
11:36:06 9 A. [as read] All manner of immorality is not only
10 accepted and tolerated today in advanced
11 societies, but even promoted as a social good.
12 The result is hostility to Christians and
13 increasingly religious persecution.
11:36:21 14 Q. Continue.
11:36:21 15 A. [as read] Nowhere is the clearer than is the
16 threat that societies are visiting on the family
17 through demonic gender ideology, a deadly impulse
18 that is being experienced in a world increasingly
19 cut off from God. Advanced societies, including,
20 I regret, the USA, continues to do everything
21 possible to legalize such situations; but this can
22 never be truthful solutions. It is like putting
23 bandages on an infected wound. It will continue
24 to poison the body until antibiotics are taken.
25 Sadly, the advent of artificial reproductive

401
1 technologies, surrogacies, so-called homosexual
2 marriage, and other evils of gender ideology will
3 inflict even more wounds in the midst of the
4 generations we live with. This is why it is so
5 important to fight to protect the family, the
6 first cell of life of the church, in every
7 society. This is not about abstract ideas. This
8 is not an ideological war between competing ideas.
9 This is about defending ourselves, children, and
10 future generations from a demonic ideology that
11 says children do not need mothers and fathers. It
12 denies human nature and wants to cut off entire
13 generations from God. Sincerely yours.
11:37:42 14 Q. Would you regard that as a religious statement?
11:37:53 17 Q. Do you agree or disagree with Cardinal Sarah's
18 statement?
11:38:01 19 A. I disagree with Cardinal Sarah's statement.
11:38:04 20 Q. Could it be your anger is in reference to the
21 content of the message and not the intent of the sender?
11:38:15 22 MR. COURLANG: Objection to "the intent."
11:38:22 24 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's move over to e-mail number 5
25 here. If you could, please read us this e-mail in full,

402
1 including the subject header, which is the state motto of
2 North Carolina, I believe. I think it's actually on a seal
3 behind the judge right there.
11:38:46 4 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to reading
5 e-mails in full. The jury has them published already.
11:38:51 7 MR. FULLER: It is essential that we read -- at
8 least read up until --
11:38:55 9 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, just so you will know, you
10 will be free in your closing argument to recite anything you
11 want to from any exhibit that's in evidence.
11:39:05 12 MR. FULLER: Okay. Again, it is imperative in
13 legalese -- see, I have been active in -- as a -- as a judge
14 in a specialty court -- that we read some parts into the
15 record. And I would respect (sic) that I be allowed to do
16 so, and I will try to be brief.
11:39:21 17 THE COURT: The entire e-mails are in the record.
11:39:24 18 MR. FULLER: No one has read them. It doesn't
19 matter if it's in the record. No one is aware of them, and
20 so I just want to draw attention and question the witness.
21 I would appreciate you --
11:39:32 22 THE COURT: If you will do that limited to things
23 that are relevant to this jury's determination, I will allow
24 you to do that.
11:39:38 25 BY MR. FULLER:

403
11:39:38 1 Q. Can you just read the first paragraph and the
2 second paragraph on page 1 -- and then we'll move on -- out
3 loud?
11:39:44 4 A. [as read] A leading psychiatrist once described
5 transgender castration surgeries like offering
6 liposuction to an anorexic, wrong in all cases,
7 even if demanded it. It is morally licit for
8 minors to undergo transgender reassignment
9 surgeries that involve --
11:40:05 10 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm can't write that fast.
11:40:05 11 A. [as read] -- transgender reassignment surgeries
12 that involve child castration. Can a minor even
13 consent to being castrated? According to the UN's
14 World Health Organization, being transgender is
15 currently listed as a mental illness in the ICD-10
16 section F64.
11:40:28 17 Q. Thank you. And I -- I just wanted to ask: Do you
18 agree or disagree with that ICD-10 Section F64? It's the
19 biggest manual in the whole world. Would you agree with
20 that finding of the World Health Organization?
11:40:44 21 A. As I said yesterday, I'm not a clinical licensed
22 social worker; but I disagree that being transgender is a
23 mental illness.
11:40:54 24 Q. Okay. And -- and would you characterize this
25 e-mail as being related to medical information? Would it be

404
1 you could summarize that e-mail as being medical in nature?
11:41:12 2 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object, Your Honor;
3 beyond Dr. Zerden's expertise.
11:41:17 4 MR. FULLER: She is a doctor. She is brilliant.
11:41:18 5 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled. In her
6 understanding of it. You may answer.
11:41:22 7 THE WITNESS: This is what I would call bogus
8 science and these are not reputable organizations that I
9 would support or that I would ask my students to do research
10 based on, their leanings and what kind of groups these are.
11:41:34 11 BY MR. FULLER:
11:41:35 12 Q. Wow, the United Nations. Okay. Let's go on to --
11:41:39 13 A. I'm talking about the bulleted list of
14 organizations that are listed here at the end of the e-mail.
11:41:45 15 Q. Okay. Can we go to e-mail number 6 here,
16 Section 2. Can you just read a few of the points, when we
17 were talking about this UN thing, the clinical information,
18 can you just read the clinical information in Section 2 of
19 e-mail number 6?
11:42:03 20 A. [as read] According to the UN World Health
21 Organization, being transgender is currently
22 listed as a mental illness in the ICD-10 Section
23 F64. Clinical information: A disorder
24 characterized by recurrent sexual urges,
25 fantasies, or behaviors in a heterosexual male

405
1 involving cross-dressing.
11:42:26 2 Q. If -- you need to keep going please.
11:42:29 3 A. [as read] Disorder characterized by recurrent
4 intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges,
5 or behaviors involving cross-dressing in a
6 heterosexual male. The fantasies, urges, or
7 behaviors cause clinically significant distress or
8 impairment in social, occupational, or other areas
9 of functioning. Severe gender dysphoria coupled
10 with a persistent desire for the physical
11 characteristics and social roles that connotate
12 the opposite biological sex. The act of dressing
13 like and adopting the behavior of the opposite
14 sex, often for sexual gratification. The urge to
15 belong to the opposite sex that may include
16 surgical procedures to destroy the sex organ.
11:43:18 17 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you characterize
18 that as being an interaction that's more scholarly in nature
19 with one academic to another, the language being used? Is
20 it a scholarly kind of exchange?
11:43:35 21 A. It is dated evidence. It is citing the APA -- the
22 DSM from 1994; and there has been a revision to the DSM so
23 it's not even using the current evidence available and the
24 most recognized tool to diagnose mental illness.
11:43:52 25 Being transgender is not what we are here to

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1 discuss. That's not the mental issue we are here to talk
2 about. We are here to talk about someone who sent e-mails.
11:44:00 3 Q. And I'm asking you to characterize that. If you
4 would just please characterize that. Is it scholarly
5 interaction; yes or no?
11:44:11 8 Q. She didn't answer it.
11:44:12 9 THE COURT: Sustained. Ask your next question.
11:44:14 10 Q. Okay. Let's talk about e-mail number 7. Can you
11 read -- this is something that doesn't even say -- I
12 think -- it's from Napier Fuller. It just says the
13 political outreach director who -- Lord knows who that is.
14 But anyway, can you read where it says -- it's just that two
15 paragraph -- or two sentence thing where it starts, with
16 Professor Zerden at the bottom?
11:44:38 17 A. [as read] Professor Zerden, Why do you publicly
18 ridicule the church's teachings along with your
19 SSW colleagues? Are there any practicing
20 Catholics in good standing at SSW or have you all
21 embraced the demonic pagan sexuality? The church
22 holds that transgenderism is demonic. Even Pope
23 Francis has said so in an interview.
11:45:01 24 Q. Professor, do you think that's a legitimate
25 question a taxpayer could raise to a state employee?

407
11:45:09 1 A. No.
11:45:14 2 Q. E-mail number 8, let's see here. I'm not going to
3 make you read the Latin here, but I could if I was on the
4 stand. I will ask you to read, just so we can get a little
5 bit of this in there, maybe we can -- just for fun -- I
6 mean, and I do think I want to get into this so we have a
7 little bit of an idea of the content of the --
11:45:50 8 THE COURT REPORTER: A little bit of an idea of
9 the --
11:45:50 10 Q. -- the content of the e-mails. Kind of flip the
11 page over to where -- the bit, Adesto itaque. If maybe you
12 could read that in Latin and then the English. It's just a
13 few sentences, just for fun. It would great just for
14 coolness to have some Latin into the record.
11:46:08 17 A JUROR: That's not fun.
11:46:09 18 MR. FULLER: Anyway.
11:46:10 19 THE WITNESS: Nothing about this is fun,
20 Mr. Fuller.
11:46:12 21 THE COURT: Ma'am, just answer his question.
11:46:16 22 BY MR. FULLER:
11:46:17 23 Q. I don't think jail going to jail is fun.
11:46:20 24 Anyway, could you characterize this as being
25 religious in nature?

408
11:46:24 1 A. Yes.
11:46:25 2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's see here. Do any of
3 these e-mails -- by the way, have we ever been able to
4 establish physically where they were sent and received? Has
5 that ever been entered into the record; yes or no?
11:46:40 6 A. We spent a great deal of time yesterday talking
7 about the various e-mail addresses that were sent to me and
8 that I received on my UNC e-mail address. We talked about
9 how there was a similarity with all of them and how Napier
10 Fuller's name was associated with all of them. We talked
11 about how his address was on the stamp of many of the
12 e-mails, and I think we discussed that in great detail
13 yesterday.
11:47:05 14 Q. But for the jurisdiction of the University of
15 North Carolina police, we have to establish where physically
16 you opened them; and I'm not going to ask another question.
17 But, obviously, we don't know that.
11:47:17 18 E-mail number 10 -- and this is probably the last
19 one here -- can you tell us -- it looks like there is a New
20 York Times article on -- can -- can you read us the title of
21 that New York Times article that's been circled. And, of
22 course, in the real e-mails -- that's why we should always
23 use the duplicate original and not photocopies because these
24 are rendered, and we can't even read them, but that's the
25 State's problem. These are not real e-mails. These --

409
1 these are -- these are copies of them; and that's not, of
2 course, the original because original has links. And it's
3 in color, and it's a totally different thing, so you open
4 and actually read this article, this IRS (sic). But because
5 the rendering has not been appropriate, we cannot do that.
6 But I will ask you to read the headline where it says San
7 Francisco. Can you read that headline?
11:48:12 8 A. [as read] San Francisco is asking, Where have all
9 the children gone?
11:48:17 10 Q. I would just ask you, as a social worker, does it
11 bother you that the U.S. is in demographic decline? Have
12 you ever thought about that?
11:48:28 15 BY MR. FULLER:
11:48:29 16 Q. Okay. I'll just -- one final question here at the
17 very bottom. The only I think, quote, pornographic image is
18 the cartoon character; right? Explain to me why this is so
19 offensive, being that you have done scholarly articles on
20 child prostitution? You know, why are these cartoon
21 characters so offensive to arise to a criminal act?
11:48:50 22 A. I have never written about child prostitution.
23 That's not something I know anything about.
11:48:54 24 Q. Well, you did. The Pacific Islander article was
25 age 15 and under, but anyway.

410
11:48:59 1 MR. COURLANG: Objection; argumentative.
11:49:02 3 Q. If you could just explain to us why you find the
4 cartoon so upsetting and -- and --
11:49:12 5 A. I didn't ask for these e-mails. When I'm at my
6 place of work and I'm trying to get things done, supervise
7 300 students, dozens of faculty, I don't need to open up
8 pictures with various sexual positions and have text
9 associated to tell me how the penis is supposed to be
10 inserted into vaginas. It has nothing to do with my
11 employment. It has nothing to do with the business of the
12 School of Social Work. And it's inappropriate. And my
13 staff, my students, and myself do not need to start our day
14 walking into this. It's just not appropriate.
11:49:44 15 Q. So to be clear, there is no genitalia visible; yes
16 or no?
11:49:51 17 A. There is a buttocks and there are breasts visible,
18 and you can tell that they are engaging in different sexual
19 positions.
11:49:59 20 Q. How can you tell that? Maybe it's dry humping?
11:50:05 23 Q. All right. We are wrapped up. You can get off
24 the stand.
11:50:11 25 THE COURT: There will be no redirect of this

411
1 witness; is that correct?
11:50:15 3 THE COURT: All right. Dr. Zerden, you may step
4 down. Thank you very much.
11:50:25 5 (The witness was excused.)
11:50:26 6 THE COURT: At this time I call upon the State to
7 call its next witness.
11:50:28 8 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the State rests at this
9 time.
11:50:30 10 THE STATE RESTS
11:50:31 11 THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, at the
12 conclusion of the State's evidence, I'm required to have a
13 hearing outside your presence. I'm going to ask you to go
14 to the jury room for a little while. I don't really know
15 how long it's going to take. If it's going to take long,
16 I'll send you to lunch. But if it's not, we will -- I will
17 let you know. All right.
11:50:52 18 So remember the rules. Keep an open mind.
19 Remember all the rest of the rules, and we will see you in
20 a few minutes. That one (indicating).
23 the jury.)
11:51:40 25 At the close of the State's evidence, first, I'm

412
DFT ARGUMENT MOTION TO DISMISS (AS-APPLIED) - FULLER
1 going to address the defendant's motion to dismiss based on
2 the as-applied unconstitutionality of this statute to the
3 evidence that we have heard.
11:51:57 4 Mr. Fuller, I will hear you.
11:52:01 5 MR. FULLER: Ummm, I -- is the Court considering
6 the Grotsky matter? I get a little confused.
11:52:08 7 THE COURT: Right now I'm not. Right now I'm
8 considering whether your evidence --
11:52:12 9 MR. FULLER: Okay. I --
11:52:13 10 THE COURT: Hang on. Whether the evidence that
11 has been presented by the State would support --
11:52:26 12 MR. FULLER: I understand where you are going.
11:52:28 13 THE COURT: -- yeah, a finding by this Court that
14 this statute as applied to you in this case is
15 unconstitutional. So that's what I want to hear from right
16 now. I'm going to get to everything you want to get to
17 eventually.
11:52:41 19 THE COURT: But right now, that's what I want.
11:52:45 21 MR. FULLER: Okay. Ummm --
11:52:47 22 THE COURT: I mean, I've read your brief. I
23 understand your -- your argument, I think; but what I'm
24 asking you to do is to tell me how the facts as they have
25 come -- as the evidence as it's come out in this case

413
1 relates to the law as you understand it and --
11:53:03 2 MR. FULLER: (Interposing.) Yeah, yeah.
11:53:03 3 THE COURT REPORTER: Relates to the law and what,
4 Judge?
11:53:03 5 THE COURT: As he understands it and as he
6 contends it is.
11:53:05 7 MR. FULLER: The State, for whatever crazy reason,
8 put on that hour tape. And so there has been a whole lot of
9 evidence that shows that the intention -- the only evidence
10 I think we have of the intent was that tape shows that it
11 was religious in nature. There's been no other evidence put
12 on of intent because it basically allowed me to testify. No
13 one can know what goes on in my brain but me, and that's the
14 evidence that's been put into the record, and there has been
15 nothing to contradict it.
11:53:34 16 So, therefore, the statute on Section E makes it
17 clear that if it's a religious or political in nature --
18 and that's anything -- it -- it can be -- I would like to
19 use some profane language just for fun, but I won't because
20 that might make the judge mad. Although, there is a case
21 precedent of people, you know, wearing an "F-U" in court;
22 and they have won in the Supreme Court. It's a political
23 message.
11:53:58 24 But the point that I bring is that Section E says
25 that if your intent is religious or political, it doesn't

414
1 even matter whether you've cussed them out or threatened to
2 kill them, that the statute doesn't apply, period. It's
3 gone if that is the intent. They might charge you in a
4 different statute. But that statute does not apply to
5 anything that has an intent that is religious or political.
6 And, of course, you know, the church used to chop people's
7 heads off so that's just what the statute says. And I
8 think as applying it, yeah, you are going to have to
9 dismiss the case because that's the only thing that has
10 been put into evidence.
11:54:32 12 What says the State about that?
11:54:35 14 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. The State
15 contends that what Mr. Fuller has done is harassment. It is
16 conduct that is not protected by the First Amendment. Your
17 Honor has read my brief, and my argument will follow that.
11:54:49 18 I would like to point the Court towards Thorne v.
19 Bailey, T-H-O-R-N-E, versus Bailey, B-A-I-L-E-Y,
20 846 F 2d 241. Your Honor, this is a Fourth Circuit case
21 that essentially upheld a Virginia telephone harassment
22 statute that prohibited the use of a telephone to harass
23 others. In that particular matter, the Fourth Circuit said
24 on page 243:
11:55:22 25 [as read] Prohibiting harassment is not

415
STATE'S ARGUMENT MOTION TO DISMISS (AS-APPLIED) - COURLANG
1 prohibiting speech because harassment is not
2 protected speech. Harassment is not
3 communication, although it may take the form of
4 speech.
11:55:34 5 Your Honor, we contend that under Thorne v. Bailey
6 that Mr. Fuller's e-mails were conduct. They were
7 harassment. And even though they might have taken the form
8 of speech, they were not communications, just as the Fourth
9 Circuit said. Your Honor, I think when we take a look at
10 the evidence as a whole, we see the conduct that Mr. Fuller
11 engaged in in order to harass Dr. Zerden.
11:55:57 12 First, we have the fact that Mr. Fuller did indeed
13 sign up Dr. Zerden for this MailChimp -- M-A-I-L --
11:56:04 14 MR. FULLER: The allegation has not been proved.
11:56:08 15 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, don't interrupt him.
11:56:11 17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
11:56:11 18 MR. COURLANG: -- C-H-I-M-P -- mailing list that
19 Dr. Zerden did not know of, did not ask for, did not
20 solicit. And then after Dr. Zerden filed an abuse report,
21 Mr. Fuller continued sending e-mails to Dr. Zerden, using
22 different e-mail addresses for reasons possibly to -- in
23 some case possibly to avoid detection. The State contends
24 it was to harass. If one e-mail address would be blocked,
25 he would start using a different one.

416
11:56:40 1 Further, Your Honor, when we look at actually what
2 the e-mails are, they are personal attacks, stemming from
3 Mr. Fuller's own animus. The State contends that as the
4 Supreme Court has said in Snyder v. Phelps --
5 S-N-Y-D-E-R -- versus Phelps -- P-H-E-L-P-S, Citation
6 562 U.S. 443. Your Honor, I do have a copy for the Court,
7 if Your Honor --
11:57:06 9 MR. COURLANG: Okay.
11:57:06 10 THE COURT: I have read your brief, and I have --
11:57:08 12 THE COURT: I have been thinking about this for a
13 long time. I am with you. I understand.
11:57:12 14 MR. COURLANG: The Court is required to look at
15 the whole. And when you look at the whole of these
16 particular e-mails, the State contends that they are
17 personal attacks, coming from Mr. Fuller's own animus
18 towards Dr. Zerden because of her support of the LGBTQ
19 rights. There are personal attacks on Dr. Zerden. There
20 are personal attacks on Dr. Zerden's colleagues, and there
21 are personal attacks on the UNC School of Social Work.
11:57:40 22 The State contends that Mr. Fuller is trying to
23 mask these personal attacks by peppering some allusions to
24 religion in the e-mails. Under the Snyder v. Phelps, the
25 State contends that the mere peppering of these allusions

417
1 throughout the e-mails does not give him the protection of
2 the First Amendment when you look at the whole of the
3 record.
11:58:07 4 Your Honor, I -- the State contends further that
5 Mr. Fuller's own admissions show his intent. We listened
6 to the podcast in which Mr. Fuller was the interviewee and
7 Mr. Shiver was the interviewer. Mr. Fuller stated, "Yes, I
8 sent these e-mails." And he wanted it to be like the Jerry
9 Springer Show, the show where people throw chairs at each
10 other. Your Honor, the State takes throwing chairs at
11 another person as a threat, as a violent, and as
12 harassment. And the State contends that Mr. Fuller's
13 intent was not to provide political, religious aspects, but
14 rather, to engage in a campaign of harassment and try to,
15 in some form, mask that harassment by peppering some
16 religious allusions.
11:59:02 17 And the State believes that the words used by
18 Mr. Fuller are harassment as the Thorne v. Bailey case
19 said. I'm not going to get too deep into exactly what the
20 e-mails say. Your Honor has seen those e-mails. We have
21 gone through them extensively. But given everything that
22 the State has put on, given the -- Mr. Fuller's own words
23 through that podcast, we ask you deny his motion; and we
24 ask that you find that Mr. Fuller's conduct was harassment,
25 which is not protected by the First Amendment.

418
11:59:38 1 MR. FULLER: If I could just respond quickly.
11:59:40 4 MR. FULLER: We are talking about -- you know, I
5 am new to all this, but I do read -- love philosophy, and I
6 have studied philosophy a lot, starting with Wittgenstein
7 and a lot of Dominican Aristotelian philosophy. And so this
8 isn't about the law. It's about how the facts fit within
9 the law. And the fact is there is no evidence that's been
10 put on that's convincing that shows my intention was to
11 annoy or harass. There has been absolutely nothing in here
12 except maybe some conjecture.
12:00:07 13 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Fuller, you have hit the
14 nail on the head; and that is, it's your contention that the
15 evidence is not convincing. I'm going to hold that that's a
16 question for the jury to decide. I'm not going to make any
17 findings of fact because it's up to the jury to decide what
18 the facts are.
12:00:27 20 THE COURT: But my ruling is that the evidence, as
21 presented by the State, would support a finding by the jury
22 that the pattern of behavior, if they find that Mr. Fuller
23 sent these e-mails, if they find that Dr. Zerden received
24 them, and if they find that his purpose in doing that was to
25 harass, annoy, threaten, abuse, terrify, or embarrass her,

419
COURT'S RULING ON MOTION TO DISMISS (AS-APPLIED)
1 and if they find that he did that intentionally and
2 willfully, that this evidence would be considered for
3 Constitutional purposes as conduct and not as speech. And I
4 adopt the reasoning of the Fourth Circuit who says:
12:01:27 5 [as read] Prohibiting harassment is not
6 prohibiting speech because harassment is not a
7 protected speech. Harassment is not
8 communication, although it may take the form of
9 speech.
12:01:39 10 I also find as a matter of law that paragraph E of
11 14-196.3 presents a matter of law for the Court and not a
12 matter of fact for the jury. And I find as a matter of law
13 that if the jury believes that these communications -- if
14 they find beyond a reasonable doubt all four of these
15 facts -- all four of the issues -- elements, excuse me --
16 that as a matter of law that these communications and this
17 conduct was not peaceable, nonviolent, or nonthreatening
18 activity.
12:02:26 19 And, therefore, subsection E of 14-196.3 does not
20 apply to this case. Therefore, the defendant's motion to
21 dismiss on the grounds that this statute is
22 unconstitutional as applied to him is denied.
12:02:42 23 Now, the next thing I will hear is if the
24 defendant has a motion whether the evidence is sufficient
25 for the jury to find all four of the elements. Would you

420
DFT ARGUMENT SUFFICIENCY OF THE EVIDENCE - FULLER
1 like to be heard about that?
12:02:58 3 MR. FULLER: Yes, I would like to make a motion
4 that the evidence submitted regarding -- and you bring up a
5 great point. The elements of e-mails, the sending and
6 receiving, the jurisdiction, all the various elements -- and
7 I should recite them into the record, but I can't, and we
8 will just assume that we are referring to all four
9 elements -- that the State has not put on enough evidence to
10 continue the case. At this point, we would ask for -- is it
11 a summary judgment, judgment summary dismissal?
12:03:28 12 THE COURT: It would be that you ask that the case
13 be dismissed for failure to present sufficient evidence of
14 at least one element of the crime. I will take it as
15 that --
12:03:40 16 MR. FULLER: Yes.
12:03:41 18 THE COURT: -- the motion to dismiss at the close
19 of the State's evidence for insufficiency of the evidence.
20 And that motion is denied.
12:03:48 21 Now, I want to -- and I do this in every case.
22 I'm not doing this just because you don't have a lawyer. I
23 do this every time I get to this point in a trial. I want
24 to make sure you understand two very important
25 Constitutional rights that you have.

421
12:04:02 3 THE COURT: The first is that you have the right
4 to testify in your own defense and you also have the right
5 not to testify. If you exercise your right not to testify
6 and you ask me to, I will instruct the jury that they may
7 not hold that against you. Do you understand the right that
8 you have concerning your own testimony?
12:04:23 9 MR. FULLER: Oh, I -- I'm going to say, we are
10 going to go into trial next week because I'm going
11 to call -- I want at least three defendants (sic), so we
12 are --
12:04:30 13 THE COURT: Hang on. We are not there yet.
12:04:32 14 MR. FULLER: Yeah.
12:04:32 15 THE COURT: Do you understand your rights
16 concerning whether you testify or not?
12:04:34 17 MR. FULLER: Oh, sure. Yes. I'm not going to
18 testify under any conditions.
12:04:37 19 THE COURT: Okay. And the next right that you
20 have, you have the right not to put on a defense at all and
21 just argue to the jury. That is your absolute right. And
22 you also have the right to call witnesses for your defense.
23 Do you understand that right?
12:04:51 24 MR. FULLER: Sure. Yes.
12:04:52 25 THE COURT: And which -- which do you choose to

422
DISCUSS DFT'S RIGHTS EVIDENCE PRESENTATION/FULLER
1 do?
12:04:54 2 MR. FULLER: I'm going to call witnesses, and we
3 are going to be at this for several more days, and I need
4 your cooperation to then pull all these people in because
5 none of them has shown up. And, again, I have a
6 Constitutional right to obtain witnesses in my favor and you
7 must assist me in that.
12:05:12 8 THE COURT REPORTER: I have a Constitutional right
9 to obtain witnesses --
12:05:12 10 MR. FULLER: In my favor. It's the Sixth
11 Amendment.
12:05:13 12 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I understood you to say
13 that you have a witness. Is that witness not here today?
12:05:18 14 MR. FULLER: We have one, Dr. Styles from UNC --
12:05:21 16 MR. FULLER: -- was here. But because we have
17 gone so long, he has had to leave. So he would possibly be
18 available to come back on Friday, and I would like to go
19 ahead and arrange for more witnesses on Friday. I think we
20 are probably going to go into next week on this because I
21 want to put -- if the State gets to do three days, then I'm
22 going to do three days. So we are going to have a lot of
23 people that are going to come in and testify in this case.
12:05:43 24 THE COURT: Just for planning purposes --
12:05:46 25 MR. FULLER: Yep.

423
12:05:46 1 THE COURT: -- you know the Court has fairly broad
2 discretion as to the manner and presentation of the
3 evidence, has an interest in not unduly prolonging a trial.
12:05:59 4 If you have evidence that is admissible because
5 it's material and relevant to an issue in this case, then
6 absolutely I will let you put it on. But evidence that is
7 designed to go to the intent of the University or of
8 Dr. Zerden or of --
12:06:28 9 MR. FULLER: I --
12:06:29 10 THE COURT: -- these collateral matters, I'm not
11 going to prolong this trial for that. So I need you to at
12 least forecast for me what it is these witnesses are going
13 to say.
12:06:37 14 MR. FULLER: Let me speak. I'm very pissed off
15 right now, okay, because a lot of Constitutional experts
16 have looked at this, the best people in the world; and they
17 said it should be dismissed immediately. So I'm -- I'm just
18 in a state of shock that you have not dismissed it, which
19 means I am going to want to put a huge defense on. And --
20 and so we are going to do that. It's my Constitutional
21 right, and we are going to keep at this, and we are going to
22 go into next week, and that's the way it's going to be.
12:07:08 23 THE COURT: And --
12:07:08 24 MR. FULLER: And I demand to have all those
25 witnesses. And if the Court doesn't allow it, then that

424
1 becomes a part of the appeal. But, I mean, I can't believe
2 you haven't dismissed the case by now. It's just insane.
12:07:20 3 THE COURT: All right. Mister -- Mr. Fuller, I'm
4 going to stop you right there. I appreciate your concern
5 about that. You are free to disagree with me as long as you
6 do it respectfully; and you are just about to cross the line
7 so let me stop you.
12:07:33 8 Now, you have had notice of this trial date since
9 May; is that right?
12:07:42 10 MR. FULLER: That is incorrect. The State took
11 control by declaring me insane and assigned gay rights
12 people as my attorney.
12:07:49 13 THE COURT: Now, hang on. Hang on a minute. When
14 your issue of competence came up and the case was continued,
15 when was that, April, May, some time like that?
12:08:00 16 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, that was in March.
12:08:02 17 THE COURT: In March.
12:08:03 18 MR. FULLER: And before that, they declared me
19 indigent and have also done that. I went on the stand and
20 said, "I'm a multimillionaire. I'm not an indigent."
12:08:09 21 Then they said, "Oh, we got to take a break. Now
22 you are insane."
12:08:12 23 THE COURT: All right. Hang on a second. All I'm
24 trying to do is get my timeline.

425
12:08:17 1 THE COURT: So when the case was continued in
2 March to have your competency evaluation, was he notified
3 that August the 6th would be the next trial date?
12:08:30 5 THE COURT: Okay. And then you had your subpoenas
6 issued by a superior court judge second week of July or so.
12:08:43 8 THE COURT: I'm going to call on you at
9 2:00 o'clock to call witnesses --
12:08:53 10 MR. FULLER: Me calling on the phone? I don't
11 understand.
12:08:56 12 THE COURT: -- to the stand.
12:08:58 13 And if you have witnesses that you are going to
14 call to the stand at 2:00 o'clock, that's when we are going
15 to do it.
12:09:05 17 THE COURT: If you don't call a witness to the
18 stand at 2:00 o'clock, then the evidence will be closed.
12:09:11 19 MR. FULLER: Okay. I just want to be on the
20 record as saying Curt Styles, no way -- he is in
21 Wilmington -- and he can't be here.
12:09:17 22 I mean, I just am really irritated that you have
23 made this a kangaroo court. I have a right to put on
24 witnesses, and it's been -- the Court has already found in
25 Judge Robinson's ruling that that had been frustrated by

426
1 the clerk and that he had continued in between, even after
2 the ruling of frustrating, he wouldn't issue them and has
3 continued to frustrate the manner and that that must be
4 taken into account.
12:09:40 5 THE COURT: I'm not going to argue with you about
6 my ruling. That's my ruling. I'm going to bring the jury
7 back in here. I'm going to send them to lunch. We are
8 going to start back at 2:00 o'clock. And if you have a
9 witness, you may call your witness; and if you don't, we
10 will take it from there. All right. Bring the jury back
11 in.
12:09:57 12 MR. FULLER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, why don't we just
13 go into -- go ahead and let the jury decide right now
14 because I got to get out of here. I mean, I'm just -- I am
15 furious, I mean, that you haven't dismissed the case.
12:10:08 16 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I'm -- I'm going to give
17 you --
12:10:11 18 MR. FULLER: -- tranny on the stand. I mean,
19 let's go ahead and get them to wrap it up.
12:10:16 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, we are going to take a
21 recess until 2:00 o'clock. I order you to be back in this
22 court --
12:10:22 24 THE COURT: -- at 2:00 o'clock.
12:10:23 25 MR. FULLER: And I won't call her --

427
12:10:26 1 THE COURT: Mr. Sheriff, please bring the jury
2 back in the courtroom.
5 of the jury.)
12:11:04 6 MR. FULLER: Your Honor, I wanted to correct one
7 thing I said.
12:11:06 8 THE COURT: Wait until we are outside the presence
9 of the jury please.
12:11:11 10 The jury is present in the courtroom.
12:11:12 11 Ladies and gentlemen, I still have some more
12 matters to consider outside your presence so I am going to
13 send you to lunch. We will be back in session at
14 2:00 o'clock.
12:11:21 15 Remember the rules. Keep an open mind. You
16 haven't heard it all. Don't be talking to each other about
17 the case. Don't talk to anybody else about the case.
18 Don't do any independent research. Remember all the rest
19 of the rules. Leave all your stuff in your chairs, and be
20 back in the jury lounge ready to proceed at 2:00 o'clock.
24 the jury.)

428
1 Mr. Fuller, in the exercise of my discretion and in an
2 effort to maintain decorum, I'm going to recess until
3 2:00 o'clock and give you time to hopefully regain your
4 composure. And we will hear anything you have to say at
5 2:00 o'clock.
12:12:44 6 Mr. Sheriff, put this court in recess until
7 2:00 o'clock.
14 of the jury.)
14:00:58 15 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller is present. The State is
16 present. The jury is absent.
14:01:03 17 Anything for either side before we call for the
18 jury?
14:01:09 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller?
14:01:09 21 MR. FULLER: I would like to notify the State -- I
22 mean, I wanted to call two witnesses, Ms. Phoenix and recall
23 the policeman here. I guess we will address the jury
24 instructions at a later point.
14:01:23 25 THE COURT: Sure. We do that at the close of all

429
1 the evidence.
14:01:26 3 THE COURT: Yeah. Okay.
14:01:28 4 MR. FULLER: Briefly, I'd like to get a few points
5 into the record.
14:01:36 7 MR. FULLER: And I would just like to -- and I'm
8 going to bring something in cross-examination; but it also
9 applies to every single person, including all the state
10 employees here. And I just wanted to read a few points from
11 the U.S. Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, if I
12 may, just to have it in the record so that you are aware.
13 As a good employee, we should always be aware of these
14 rules.
14:01:56 15 THE COURT: I tell you what: I'm going to let you
16 do that before you rest your case. But right now we got a
17 jury waiting on us so we may have some time at the end of
18 the day to do that. All right?
14:02:05 19 MR. FULLER: Okay. Actually, I just wanted this
20 in the record. Thank you. Thank you.
14:02:10 21 THE COURT: All right. Bring the jury in please.
24 of the jury.)

430
1 are present in the courtroom.
14:03:48 2 Mr. Fuller, call your first witness.
14:03:50 3 DEFENSE EVIDENCE BEGINS
14:03:52 4 MR. FULLER: I would like to recall Detective
5 Barbee with the University of North Carolina Department of
6 Public Safety.
14:03:58 7 THE COURT: All right. Come on up.
14:04:01 8 MR. FULLER: I would like to move at this point to
9 enter into an exhibit -- what number are we on?
14:04:06 10 THE COURT: Seven.
14:04:11 11 MR. FULLER: Okay. Seven. This relates to the
12 statistics on internal affairs.
14:04:17 13 THE COURT: All right. Show it to the State
14 please.
16 identification.)
14:04:32 17 THE COURT: If you have got an extra copy for me,
18 it might make things go faster. Thank you.
14:04:56 19 What says the State?
14:04:58 20 MR. COURLANG: The State objects, Your Honor, on
21 relevance grounds.
14:05:01 22 Also, additionally, this looks like an internal
23 affairs complaint. There is no demarcation as to whether
24 this is to Investigator Barbee or to anyone else in the
25 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Department of

431
1 Public Safety, and we object on those grounds.
14:05:15 2 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to let you try
3 to lay a foundation for this. I will reserve ruling on the
4 objection until I hear some evidence. Go ahead.
14:05:22 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULLER:
14:05:24 6 Q. Detective Barbee, was there an internal affairs
7 complaint made before the arrest warrant was issued in this?
14:05:34 8 A. No, sir.
14:05:38 9 Q. If there was an internal affairs complaint made,
10 would it go to the detective or to his supervisor; yes or
11 no? I'm sorry.
14:05:47 12 THE COURT: Are you talking about an internal
13 affairs complaint against Detective Barbee concerning this
14 case?
14:05:54 15 MR. FULLER: It was lodged before the arrest
16 warrants were issued; yes, that is absolutely true.
14:05:59 17 THE COURT: Okay. And is your answer still "no,"
18 before the case was filed?
14:06:09 19 THE WITNESS: I would have to -- if you can give
20 me one moment, Your Honor --
14:06:11 21 THE COURT: Okay. Sure.
14:06:11 22 THE WITNESS: I can tell you for certain. I'm
23 sorry.
14:06:44 25 Okay. All right. Repeat your question for me,

432
DIRECT OF ROSS BARBEE BY MR. FULLER
1 sir, so I can get the order correct.
14:06:51 3 Q. Did the defendant in this case lodge an internal
4 affairs complaint against Detective Barbee before the arrest
5 warrant was issued?
14:07:03 6 A. Yes, sir.
14:07:04 7 Q. What date was that complaint made?
14:07:09 8 A. I didn't receive the actual complaint. I received
9 an e-mail from you on January 27th stating you wished to
10 file a complaint.
14:07:18 11 Q. Okay. Were you ever interviewed about that
12 complaint? If Your Honor would like, we can take a recess
13 and I can print it out. But I was going to ask you, were
14 you ever interviewed about the complaint?
14:07:36 15 A. Yes, sir.
14:07:36 16 Q. What was the result of that internal affairs
17 review?
14:07:40 18 A. I was found to have not committed any action in
19 violation of department policy.
14:07:44 20 Q. Okay. So this document we have in front of us is
21 dated February 8th, 2017. It lists for that -- I guess my
22 question to you would be that there were four complaints in
23 the whole year. Was the complaint that I made -- is it
24 listed here?
14:08:01 25 A. I don't have a copy of it in front of me, sir. I

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1 can't see it from that far.
14:08:06 2 THE COURT: Here you go.
14:08:07 3 THE WITNESS: Oh, thank you, sir. Give me one
4 second.
14:08:14 6 THE WITNESS: It should be tabulated in these
7 results.
14:08:17 9 Q. Is -- is there any way -- explain to me the
10 process of adjudicating an internal affairs complaint.
11 Like, how long did it go on, because it appears that that
12 process occurred just a few days before the arrest warrants
13 were issued? I was just wondering if for bias if perhaps
14 you became angry to have an internal -- or let me put it
15 this way: Did you become angry to learn that there had been
16 an internal affairs complaint lodged against you?
14:08:42 17 A. No, sir.
14:08:43 18 Q. Did it make you happy that an internal affairs
19 complaint was lodged against you?
14:08:48 20 A. No, sir. It's just a part of the job for me.
21 There are complaints that come in to police officers all the
22 time.
14:08:54 23 Q. And -- and these internal affairs, they are
24 adjudicated by your friends and coworkers; correct?
14:09:02 25 A. They are adjudicated by an Internal Affairs

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1 captain.
14:09:06 2 Q. Can -- can you explain to us the process of
3 adjudication? You said you have been through it --
14:09:06 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Mr. Fuller, I can't write
5 that fast.
14:09:06 6 MR. FULLER: Okay. I'm sorry.
14:09:12 7 Q. How many times have internal affairs complaints
8 been made against you?
14:09:17 9 A. Two. Yeah, two.
14:09:21 10 Q. And this is one of the two?
14:09:22 11 A. Yes, sir.
14:09:23 12 Q. So in 20 years, just two?
14:09:24 13 A. Yes, sir.
14:09:25 14 Q. When was the other one made?
14:09:27 15 A. I don't recall the exact date, sir. It's been a
16 long time ago.
14:09:30 17 Q. But you can recall -- would you -- can you tell us
18 out of your 20-year service, would it be in the last five
19 years?
14:09:42 21 THE COURT: Sustained. Mr. Fuller, you have made
22 your point that you filed an internal affairs complaint
23 against him and that for whatever value that might have
24 concerning his credibility. Move on.

435
14:09:55 2 Q. Rather, did the defendant ever get a response from
3 the University of North Carolina Department of Public Safety
4 about the internal affairs complaint?
14:10:06 9 Q. I will ask some questions I have got prepared for
10 you here. Let's -- let's go through these. Just a moment.
11 We have been at this for about two years, so we can be very
12 patient here.
14:10:27 13 Did you ever seek access to the defendant's Gmail
14 database located in Mountain View, California?
14:10:39 15 A. Yes.
14:10:41 16 Q. Did you have a properly executed warrant signed by
17 a superior court judge when you were trying to obtain that
18 data?
14:10:53 19 A. It's kind of a twofold question. At the time the
20 search warrant was issued, but it was not signed by a judge.
21 It was signed by a magistrate. Since then, there have been
22 rulings that have come down to say that search warrants
23 signed by a magistrate are no longer legal grounds, legally
24 sufficient to obtain that type of information.
14:11:14 25 Q. All right. You had contacted the Massachusetts

436
1 Institute of Technology's Police Department; is that
2 correct.
14:11:22 3 A. Yes, sir.
14:11:23 4 Q. Did you have a record of the defendant's work
5 history and address history out of those records that were
6 revealed to you?
14:11:30 7 A. No, sir.
14:11:34 8 Q. So were you aware that the defendant had worked at
9 the Google corporate headquarters in Mountain View,
10 California?
14:11:46 13 A. No, sir.
14:11:47 14 Q. Were you aware that because of that connection
15 with Google, the Google's corporate counsel contacted me and
16 explained that they had some concerns about this warrant?
17 Were you aware of this going on or were you carbon copied in
18 those communications that Google's corporate counsel --
14:12:07 19 MR. COURLANG: Objection, Your Honor; outside his
20 personal knowledge.
14:12:09 21 THE COURT: Objection sustained.
14:12:09 22 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to remind you
23 again that when you are evaluating the evidence, that the
24 questions that are asked of witnesses are not evidence.
25 It's the only witness's answers that are evidence.

437
14:12:21 2 Q. In that aspect, after Mr. Fuller threatened to sue
3 you in federal court, did you then in secret seek access to
4 his Gmail data that might have included his private attorney
5 communications? Yes or no? Did you do that?
14:12:45 6 A. No. I sent a court order to Google. They sent me
7 a response, and I indicated to them that I did not feel any
8 need to keep the warrant secret from you.
14:12:57 9 Q. A follow-up question: Did your request to Google
10 occur very shortly, within a few days, of the threat of
11 federal litigation? Was there a -- a very close
12 relationship between the federal litigation threat and then
13 this secretive request which, of course, Google's corporate
14 counsel contacted me so it became a nonsecret issue later,
15 as you pointed out. But did you contact them shortly after
16 you received the legal notice that you would be sued in
17 federal court?
14:13:32 18 A. I don't know, sir, I did not pay a lot of
19 attention to the dates that I was threatened to be sued. I
20 continued on with my investigation irregardless (sic).
14:13:40 21 Q. Okay. Do you think that your investigation has
22 been perfect in this case?
14:13:45 23 A. No, sir.
14:13:46 24 Q. In which ways could it be improved?
14:13:49 25 A. I don't know, sir; but I'm human so I'm not going

438
1 to do anything perfect.
14:13:55 2 Q. Okay. Do you think it could be improved perhaps
3 by learning a lot more about maintaining a chain of custody
4 for digital evidence and forensic examination of digital
5 evidence?
14:14:06 6 A. I did not seize any digital evidence and did not
7 conduct any forensic examinations.
14:14:11 8 Q. I believe you have issued several search warrants
9 for digital information. I have them. I am a little
10 confused. Could you explain? You said you didn't search
11 for any additional information, but we have your signature
12 on several search warrants. Can you explain?
14:14:24 13 A. I can't enter into any information received from
14 those search warrants as the search warrant is no longer
15 valid basis for obtaining information.
14:14:35 16 Q. I don't understand. Why did you file search
17 warrants if you didn't want information?
14:14:39 18 A. At the time I filed them, the legal basis was
19 accepting of a search warrant signed by a magistrate. Since
20 then, the Supreme Court has said that a magistrate's
21 signature is no longer sufficient on a search warrant.
14:14:51 22 Q. And to which Supreme Court case do you reference
23 and when did it come down?
14:14:56 24 A. I don't --

439
14:14:59 2 Q. Were you ever involved in setting up a secret
3 wiretap on the defendant?
14:15:04 4 A. No, sir.
14:15:05 5 Q. Do you know what a secret -- what a "wiretap" is?
14:15:08 6 A. Under a legal definition or practical definition?
14:15:11 7 Q. Under both. I will let you give them in order.
14:15:14 8 A. A practical definition to me would be attaching
9 something to someone's phone line inside their house that
10 would secretly record their conversation.
14:15:23 11 A legal standpoint -- legal definition of it, I
12 don't know.
14:15:27 13 Q. Is it your testimony today that there was never a
14 wiretap placed upon the defendant's communications with the
15 entire University network or UNC's network? Is it your
16 position that there was no such -- and I remind you, you are
17 under oath here -- that the information -- the -- the
18 information science group, you were never involved in
19 setting up what might be termed a wiretap? I guess maybe
20 you might have a different way to phrase it, but it's some
21 sort of device or computer program that was going to reroute
22 messages to -- to investigators? There was never any effort
23 to do that?
14:16:06 24 A. Messages or phone conversations?
14:16:07 25 Q. I -- I guess either, either/or?

440
14:16:10 1 A. I have not been involved in or have any knowledge
2 of any type of wiretap involving phone messages at all.
14:16:17 3 Q. Okay. But what about the -- the electronic
4 communications?
14:16:19 5 A. A block was placed on several e-mail addresses
6 associated with this case. Some messages were allowed to go
7 through it to come to me, university counsel, and other
8 places, as it became evident that the case went on, that the
9 e-mails from you were not going to stop.
14:16:35 10 Q. Okay. This is really important. Are you aware
11 that the defendant attended the previously mentioned
12 boarding school with a member of the University of North
13 Carolina trustees?
14:16:48 15 Q. I was in class with him. Are you aware of that?
14:16:51 17 Q. Were you aware that there was sexual abuse of
18 students that went on and there were communications going
19 back and forth between that board member that apparently
20 were then rerouted to the University counsel's office --
14:17:04 23 Q. -- of a -- of a current pending sexual abuse case
24 of minors?

441
14:17:21 1 Q. Are people that are gay or transgender treated
2 differently in the processing of criminal complaints or
3 involvement with the police by the UNC Department of Public
4 Safety --
14:17:32 5 A. No, sir.
14:17:32 6 Q. -- yes or no?
14:17:34 7 Okay. If -- if -- if you answered no, and you
8 answered it, why in the world do they have a special hotline
9 and a whole special method of making complaints?
14:17:44 10 A. I'm not familiar with any hotline for that that
11 goes into the police department.
14:17:48 12 Q. It's actually already been admitted into evidence,
13 and we have discussed it. Anyway, let's move on.
14:17:54 14 Back to the improvement. Can you think of maybe
15 five ways that the UNC-DPS could improve in this case?
14:18:09 18 Q. Okay. What are the consequences for police
19 officers who misbehave at the University of North Carolina
20 DPS from your personal experience?
14:18:18 21 MR. COURLANG: Objection, based on relevance.
14:18:21 23 Q. Well, it's relevant in the fact that you had some
24 complaints and you didn't get punished for it. But let's go
25 on here.

442
14:18:27 1 And I appreciate that we actually allow some of
2 this in. It's very important.
14:18:29 3 After -- what we have discussed here, can you
4 honestly look towards the jury and say that the defendant is
5 guilty of a crime that's punishment by incarceration?
6 Actually look at those people and say that with a straight
7 face?
14:18:47 8 MR. COURLANG: Objection; conclusion of law.
14:18:51 10 Q. Okay. In the discovery, out of discovery we found
11 tons of e-mails about this case. None of them refer to free
12 speech. Do you perhaps regret your ignorance of the First
13 Amendment rights?
14:19:07 14 MR. COURLANG: Object to that, Your Honor.
14:19:11 16 Q. Okay. I will ask it another way. What does the
17 First Amendment mean and how do you apply it?
14:19:17 18 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to asked and
19 answered.
14:19:21 21 BY MR. FULLER:
14:19:22 22 Q. Okay. Have you been in discussions with lawyers
23 about your liability for misconduct in this case?
14:19:27 24 A. No, sir.
14:19:32 25 Q. Have you been served legal notices that you will

443
1 be sued in federal court in this case?
14:19:38 2 A. No, sir.
14:19:38 3 Q. Have you been served preservation of evidence
4 notices of pending litigation in this case?
14:19:44 5 A. Yes, sir.
14:19:45 6 Q. Isn't that a notice of a federal litigation?
14:19:49 7 A. No, sir. It's a notice of -- to preserve
8 evidence. I get them in other cases. And it basically
9 says, "don't get rid of anything associated with this case."
14:19:59 10 Q. All right. Have you complied with that request --
14:20:02 11 A. Yes, sir.
14:20:03 12 Q. -- to preserve evidence?
14:20:10 13 After the arrest warrant was processed -- and I'm
14 referring to --
14:20:16 15 THE COURT REPORTER: Wait a minute. You are
16 referring to --
14:20:16 17 Q. Out of a wealth of information that came out of
18 discovery, I couldn't find any celebrations of the fact that
19 the defendant had been arrested despite a massive amount of
20 discussion. I was just wondering: Were those removed from
21 discovery or just no one celebrated the arrest, because
22 there's so much work that went into it, all of a sudden
23 there is a silence that happens afterwards?
14:20:40 25 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of that

444
1 question.
14:20:42 2 Q. Okay. Let's see here. I wanted to ask you
3 something about what I call "the players." There is all
4 these people we have tried to subpoena. They have a good
5 way of not turning up. In fact, we have one guy even had an
6 excuse he was in Italy and sent his -- his whole itinerary
7 here is in evidence that he couldn't come, which was real
8 nice. He was in Rome and then in Tuscany, but he couldn't
9 be here.
14:21:09 10 But anyway, I want to ask you about some of these
11 people that are not here. And I just wanted to -- these are
12 all people that have been e-mailing you. What is the role
13 of Neera Skurky Makwana or whatever her name is?
14:21:20 14 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you spell that please?
14:21:22 15 MR. FULLER: I have no idea what her name is.
16 It's some kind of a strange name.
14:21:26 17 A. N-E-E-R-A, S-K- -- I'm afraid to guess and guess
18 wrong. Her role, she was an attorney in the University
19 Counsel's office.
14:21:47 20 Q. All right. You used the past tense. What
21 happened to her?
14:21:49 22 A. She resigned and took another position at another
23 university.
14:21:55 24 Q. Is it the word on the street that she resigned
25 because of this case, that she was getting sued?

445
14:22:00 1 A. No, sir.
14:22:01 2 Q. It's just coincidence? Okay.
14:22:03 3 What is the role of a Laurie Selz-Campbell? She
4 shows up a lot in these communications.
14:22:09 5 A. She is an employee at the School of Social Work.
14:22:12 6 Q. And -- and why are you always communicating with
7 her on this?
14:22:15 8 A. She -- I believe she received some e-mails from
9 you.
14:22:19 10 Q. Okay. But she didn't make a criminal complaint?
14:22:23 11 A. As far as criminal complaint meaning reporting to
12 the police or swearing out warrants or...
14:22:28 13 Q. Meaning having someone thrown in jail, basically.
14:22:32 16 Q. Okay. What about the -- this guy, Gary Bowen?
17 He's the guy who is always in Italy. He apparently was the
18 big cheerleader in this thing; but, again, just tell me his
19 involvement.
21 excuse you to the jury room for a minute. I have a matter
22 of law I need to take up outside your presence. Remember
23 the rules. Keep an open mind. You haven't heard it all.
24 Remember all the rest of the rules, and we will call you
25 back in just a minute.

446
3 the jury.)
14:23:26 4 THE COURT: The jury is absent.
14:23:27 5 Mr. Fuller, I don't intend to preclude any inquiry
6 that you want to make of this officer that has some
7 relevance to an issue in this case, which would include
8 reference to the facts, reference to impeaching his
9 credibility. But the judge does have discretion to
10 prohibit a cross-examination that is not seeking to elicit
11 admissible answers. I'm not going to let you conduct your
12 discovery in your federal case in this trial. And at some
13 point, I'm going to require you to stop asking him
14 questions if you don't get into something that's relevant.
14:24:19 16 THE COURT: I just wanted to warn you about that.
14:24:22 17 MR. FULLER: Yes, sir, you did.
14:24:23 18 THE COURT: All right. Bring the jury back
19 please.
22 of the jury.)
14:25:15 24 THE COURT: Hang on. We are missing one juror.

447
14:25:51 1 (The remaining juror came back into the courtroom at
2 2:25 p.m., and the following proceedings were had in
3 the presence of the jury.)
5 are present in the courtroom. You may continue.
7 identification.)
14:25:57 8 MR. FULLER: I will try to be brief and wrap
9 things up. I know we've got to move this along so I will
10 try to keep these going, but I move to put Exhibit 8 into
11 the record. It's from Mr. Gary Bowen to Ross Barbee and a
12 bunch of other people including Mrs. -- sorry, Dr. Zerden
13 and the mysterious Neera Makwana.
14:26:19 14 THE COURT: Any objection?
14:26:19 15 MR. COURLANG: I just reserve a hearsay objection
16 for the words not written by Investigator Barbee.
14:26:25 17 MR. FULLER: That's fine.
14:26:27 18 THE COURT: All right. Then I will let you
19 examine him about Defendant's Exhibit Number 8, but it's not
20 going to come into evidence because it's got hearsay in it,
21 but you can examine him about his statements.
14:26:37 22 BY MR. FULLER:
14:26:38 23 Q. Okay. Great. So Mr. Barbee, do you have a copy
24 of this?
14:26:44 25 A. Yes, sir.

448
14:26:48 1 Q. What do you think -- this is on January --
14:26:51 2 MR. FULLER: Am I supposed to announce, like, what
3 it is to the jury or do I have to --
14:26:56 4 THE COURT: You need to ask him questions.
14:26:57 6 Q. Okay. Mister -- or Detective Barbee, can you read
7 us the name of the sender and -- and -- and conclude that
8 this is an e-mail to you?
14:27:14 9 A. Are you referring to the one at the very top of
10 the page or the one that's more toward the middle of the
11 page?
14:27:21 12 Q. Just the top -- just the top one.
14:27:22 13 MR. COURLANG: I object to that one, Your Honor.
14 It's all hearsay.
14:27:23 15 THE COURT: Well, I mean, the question is: Are
16 you able to determine that there is an e-mail to you without
17 saying what it is or what it says?
14:27:31 18 Is there an e-mail to you in this string
19 somewhere?
14:27:35 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, Your Honor.
14:27:37 22 BY MR. FULLER:
14:27:38 23 Q. This is a recent discovery. Can you -- is this --
24 I think it's one sentence. Do you mind reading that and
25 telling us what it means to you.

449
14:27:50 1 THE COURT: What are you talking about, the one up
2 at the top?
14:27:52 3 MR. FULLER: It's says, Thanks.
14:27:55 4 THE COURT: Okay. That's sustained. That's
5 hearsay. You can ask him what he says, but you can't ask
6 him what somebody else said unless it's necessary to
7 establish the context for what he said. All right. Go
8 ahead.
14:28:04 9 MR. FULLER: I don't understand all that.
14:28:06 10 BY MR. FULLER:
14:28:06 11 Q. But why would a dean write you a letter and say:
14:28:10 12 [as read] Thank you for all your work?
14:28:12 13 A. I receive messages like that every so often from
14 people that I interact with. It's just, you know, thanking
15 me for what I do on my job.
14:28:22 16 Q. Okay. Would it be possible, like, for someone
17 like me, just like a normal North Carolina citizen, if I had
18 a beef with someone at UNC, could I call you up and get them
19 arrested or would a dean have a little more weight?
14:28:36 21 THE COURT: Sustained. Move on to something
22 relevant.
14:28:38 23 MR. FULLER: Okay. All right. Let's do move on
24 to something here. We are about to wrap up here.
14:28:42 25 BY MR. FULLER:

450
14:28:42 1 Q. Oh, this is a wonderful one. I think we already
2 introduced the Exhibit Number 2, I believe a telephone
3 conversation?
14:28:47 4 THE COURT: Exhibit Number 2 is in evidence.
14:28:56 5 Q. And do you have a little -- we'll look at this in
6 a minute, but I have got to ask another question that
7 precedes this.
14:29:03 8 A. Uh-huh.
14:29:03 9 Q. We have had a whole lot of talk about the cease
10 and desist letter. Did the cease and desist letter prevent
11 Mr. Fuller from contacting all members of the university
12 community, that it was a blanket statement; is that true or
13 false?
14:29:21 14 A. One moment please.
14:29:31 16 THE COURT: Just so the record is clear, are you
17 referring to State's Exhibit -- let's see, Number 1?
14:29:49 18 MR. FULLER: I get confused. Do we have the --
14:29:53 19 THE COURT: Do you have your copy of State's
20 Exhibit Number 1?
14:29:57 21 MR. FULLER: No.
14:29:58 22 THE COURT: For the record, that is the cease and
23 desist letter.

451
14:30:04 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, could you repeat your
2 question for me, sir.
14:30:07 4 Q. Did this cease and desist letter, did it act to
5 prevent the defendant from contacting hundreds, if not
6 thousands, of people at the University? In other words, was
7 it very broad in base or did it block the defendant from
8 just Ms. Zerden?
14:30:28 9 A. It did not prevent you from doing anything. It
10 merely asked for your compliance. It's not a legal document
11 with any force behind it. It's simply a tool that we use in
12 cases like this to try to find rapid resolution without
13 having to issue criminal charges.
14:30:42 14 Q. All right. Well, that's very interesting
15 because -- let's go ahead and read it, because I think it
16 just threatens to throw me in jail. So go ahead read, read
17 the whole thing.
14:30:50 18 THE COURT: Have you got it right there because
19 there it is?
14:30:54 20 THE WITNESS: Excuse me.
14:30:54 21 [as read] Dear Mr. Fuller, the University of
22 North Carolina at Chapel Hill, UNC CH, police
23 department has obtained several unwanted
24 electronic communications you have sent to UNC-CH
25 faculty members and students in possible violation

452
1 of NCGS § 14-196.3(b) -- as in boy -- 2. This is
2 notice that you must immediately cease and desist
3 from sending such communications to UNC-CH faculty
4 staff and/or students. Public records request on
5 this topic may still be sent to the University at
6 publicrecords@unc.edu.
14:31:40 7 However, any such further communication with
8 UNC-CH faculty, staff, and/or students may
9 constitute a violation of NCGS § 14-196.3(b)(2),
10 known as the North Carolina cyberstalking statute,
11 and could result in criminal charges.
14:32:01 12 For your review, the aforementioned statute is
13 enclosed. Please note you may continue to make
14 use of the University's facilities such as the
15 libraries and athletic events and express your
16 concern through other communication channels such
17 as the U.S. Mail.
14:32:17 18 Should you have any questions or concerns about
19 the scope of this cease and desist or its
20 implementation, please do not hesitate to contact
21 me directly at Ross_Barbee@unc.edu or
22 (919)962-0564.
14:32:34 23 Q. Okay. I'm just a little confused. You just said
24 that that letter, before you read it, that it didn't
25 threat -- threaten the defendant or limit him; but it sounds

453
1 to me like it did.
14:32:45 2 MR. COURLANG: Objection to testimony, Your Honor.
14:32:47 4 MR. FULLER: I'm just asking --
14:32:48 5 THE COURT: Don't argue with the witness.
14:32:50 7 Q. Okay. So is it still your position that that
8 letter doesn't threaten the defendant with prosecution?
14:32:57 9 A. No, sir. I make sure to use words such as "may"
10 to allude that it is not a foregone conclusion that if
11 somebody doesn't comply with this that there will be
12 charges.
14:33:09 13 Q. Okay. And -- and the statute that you included,
14 did it include the section E that excludes religious,
15 political, and any non-violent communication?
14:33:23 18 Q. No, no, no. You didn't include that because you
19 never read that.
14:33:29 21 Q. Let's go on to the telephone conversation. This
22 is Exhibit Number 2 (sic).
14:33:36 23 THE COURT: You talking about State's Exhibit
24 Number or Defendant's Exhibit Number 2?
14:33:41 25 MR. FULLER: I think it's mine. It's about the

454
1 telephone conversation between Ross Barbee and Napier
2 Fuller. The transcript starts off, Yeah, how you doing?
3 Ross Barbee: Do we see the --
14:33:57 4 THE COURT: Do you know what he is talking about?
14:33:59 7 MR. FULLER: I think maybe --
14:33:59 8 THE COURT: All right. I mean, the witness knows.
9 Go ahead.
14:34:02 10 MR. FULLER: Or I want everyone -- I think I never
11 put it in evidence. Can I go and -- I'd like to go ahead
12 and --
14:34:08 13 THE COURT: I said go ahead.
14:34:09 14 MR. FULLER: Okay. And what number should this
15 be?
14:34:15 16 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Are we on a new
17 exhibit now or is this something that's already in evidence?
14:34:20 18 MR. FULLER: Yes. I think I had written it down
19 and not used it yet, so we need a new number.
14:34:26 20 THE COURT: Your next number is number 9.
22 identification.)
14:34:29 23 MR. FULLER: Okay. So, Your Honor, I would like
24 to introduce Exhibit Number 9, which is a transcript
25 provided in discovery between Ross Barbee and Napier Fuller

455
1 on the 25th of January.
14:34:44 3 MR. COURLANG: The State objects on hearsay
4 grounds and that Mr. Fuller is trying to introduce testimony
5 through this particular exhibit.
14:34:51 6 THE COURT: Let me take a look at it.
14:34:59 7 MR. FULLER: It's no hearsay. It's between him
8 and me.
14:35:03 9 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, let me make up my mind
10 first.
14:35:14 12 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to the find that
13 this is a self-serving statement of the defendant and may
14 not be introduced into evidence on cross-examination.
14:35:21 15 The objection is sustained.
14:35:22 16 BY MR. FULLER:
14:35:22 17 Q. Okay? Well, I'm going to ask you: At the end of
18 the conversation, Mr. Fuller is expressing that the law
19 doesn't apply to him, you can't have him arrested. I
20 believe that you ended the conversation by agreeing with
21 Napier Fuller that he is correct in his legal views.
14:35:46 25 BY MR. FULLER:

456
14:35:46 1 Q. Well, I will ask you a very simple question. Mr.
2 Barbee -- Detective Barbee, do you get confused a lot?
14:35:54 5 A. Define "a lot."
14:35:57 6 Q. Are you on any medication right now?
14:35:59 7 A. Yes, sir.
14:36:01 8 Q. Does it affect your -- your mental acumen?
14:36:05 9 A. No, sir.
14:36:08 10 Q. Were you on any other medications, whatever
11 medication you are on, on within the dates of this legal
12 conflict, which is roughly from December 27th, 2016, to
13 February 2nd, 2017? Were you on more than one medication at
14 that time?
14:36:25 15 A. No, sir.
14:36:33 16 Q. And the medication has nothing to do with -- you
17 have already answered it. Okay.
14:36:38 18 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are starting to talk
19 too fast again.
14:36:42 21 Q. I want to introduce a -- an Exhibit Number 10,
22 which relates to -- I'm going to turn and just ask you a
23 little bit of questions.
25 identification.)

457
14:36:58 1 THE COURT: Show it to the State first please.
14:36:59 2 MR. FULLER: What's that?
14:37:00 3 THE COURT: Show it to the State first --
14:37:02 4 MR. FULLER: Okay. I apologize.
14:37:02 5 THE COURT: -- and give him an opportunity to
6 decide whether he objects or not.
14:37:06 7 MR. FULLER: Okay. This is the United States
8 Department of Justice Civil Right's Division's
9 recommendations on how --
14:37:13 10 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are testifying again.
11 I'm going to ask you to stop doing that.
14:37:18 13 (Pause in proceedings while Mr. Fuller handed paperwork
14 to Courlang.)
14:37:23 15 MR. FULLER: Okay. Well, he will object. Go
16 ahead.
14:37:34 18 THE COURT: Have you got a copy for me so I can
19 see what we are doing here?
14:37:37 20 MR. FULLER: Yes.
14:37:38 22 MR. FULLER: Should I write a number on it?
14:37:40 23 THE COURT: It's fine. What says the State?
14:37:43 24 MR. COURLANG: The State would object on relevance
25 grounds, Your Honor.

458
14:37:46 1 THE COURT: Hang on. Let me see what --
14:37:48 2 MR. FULLER: I --
14:37:50 3 THE COURT: -- let me see what it is.
14:37:52 4 MR. FULLER: I remind you defendant is covered
5 under that, so it is very relevant.
14:38:01 6 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. We will make
7 sure to place Defendant's Exhibit Number 10 into the record
8 for record purposes.
14:38:08 10 Q. Okay. I will ask you just broadly. In -- in your
11 encounters with the public, do you ever encounter people
12 with mental disabilities? Has that ever happened to you in
13 your 20-year career?
14:38:21 14 A. Yes, sir.
14:38:21 15 Q. Are you trained in how to assess them in a way
16 that is fair, considering their mental impairments? Have
17 you been given any training in that?
14:38:36 18 A. I have received training in dealing with people
19 with various mental impairments but not as far as any type
20 of assessment. It more goes to how police officers should
21 interact with them.
14:38:50 22 Q. Okay.
14:38:50 23 A. How -- how to use a different tone of voice,
24 different body language, that type of thing.
14:38:58 25 Q. Okay. So -- so yes or no: You are -- you are not

459
1 familiar with the USDOJ's guidelines for how municipality
2 police should -- should -- should interact? This is a
3 document that -- are you familiar with their guidelines?
14:39:20 6 Q. Okay. Can you explain to me how you would
7 interact with someone that has what is termed emotional
8 dysregulation. Can you explain to me what that is and how
9 you would -- you would respond as a police officer when you
10 are interacting with someone that has that.
14:39:40 11 A. I -- to answer the first part, I don't know
12 exactly what it is.
14:39:44 13 In the context of this case, I did not interact
14 with you aside from telephone conversation. And at the time
15 I decided to pursue the warrants, I did not know that you
16 had any type of mental impairment. I had no way to know.
14:40:01 17 Q. So you are saying under oath that the defendant
18 never contacted you in writing and mentioned that he was
19 covered under ADA and explained all that? You are saying
20 you never got those e-mails, tons of them?
14:40:13 21 A. I'm saying that at the time I decided to issue a
22 warrant for you, I did not know that you had any type of
23 mental impairment. I had never met you. My only
24 interaction with you directly was over the telephone.
14:40:26 25 Q. Okay. So -- so after you became aware there was a

460
1 mental impairment, did you seek to perhaps assess the matter
2 in a different light? Was there any difference in the way
3 that it would be handled when you became aware that there
4 was a mental impairment of the defendant?
14:40:47 7 MR. FULLER: I -- I think that wraps it up. Thank
8 you for -- for your time.
14:40:52 9 THE COURT: All right. Will there --
14:40:53 10 MR. FULLER: You are dismissed.
14:40:54 11 THE COURT: -- will there be any
12 cross-examination --
14:40:57 13 MR. COURLANG: No --
14:40:57 14 THE COURT: By the State.
14:40:59 16 THE COURT: All right. Investigator, you may step
17 down. Thank you very much.
14:41:02 18 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
14:41:07 20 THE COURT: At this time I will call upon the
21 defendant to call his next witness.
14:41:15 22 MR. FULLER: I will call Ms. Terri Phoenix. And
23 we're almost done, almost done.
14:41:17 24 THE COURT: I believe it's Dr. Terri Phoenix; is
25 that correct?

461
14:41:21 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.
14:41:21 2 THE COURT: All right. Come on up.
14:41:21 3 TERRI PHOENIX
14:41:33 7 THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed.
14:41:22 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FULLER:
14:41:35 9 Q. I'm going to ask you some yes-or-no questions, and
10 we'll get into some -- some open-ended questions later. If
11 you just limit your answers please --
14:41:43 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, on direct examination, you
13 are not allowed to ask leading questions.
14:41:48 14 MR. FULLER: Okay. I'm just trying to give her a
15 background. But anyway.
14:41:52 16 Q. Did Mr. Fuller and yourself become involved in a
17 legal controversy; yes or no?
14:41:58 18 A. Yes.
14:42:01 19 Q. Was that adjudicated in Mr. Fuller's favor; yes or
20 no?
14:42:05 21 A. Yes.
14:42:06 23 THE COURT: Sustained. Ladies and gentlemen,
24 disregard the last answer of the witness. I find that to be
25 irrelevant.

462
DIRECT OF TERRI PHOENIX BY MR. FULLER
14:42:14 1 Q. Was it for the same e-mails?
14:42:23 4 Q. Are you currently engaged in litigation or a
5 defendant in a lawsuit by the -- by this defendant or, in
6 other words, are we switching positions here?
14:42:33 7 THE COURT: Sustained. You can't impeach the
8 witness if you haven't even elicited any testimony.
14:42:39 9 Q. Anyway, well, it's hard for me to explain to the
10 jury what happened. I guess they may never find out, but it
11 was pretty out of control. I'll just put it that way.
14:42:46 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, if you are going to
13 testify, there will be a time for you to do that. But until
14 you decide to testify, stop testifying.
14:42:54 15 Q. Dr. Phoenix, what is your job title?
14:42:57 16 A. I am the director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,
17 Transgender, and Queer Center at the University of North
18 Carolina at Chapel Hill.
14:43:04 19 Q. Does the website -- and I have gone through it
20 very carefully -- does it have any comments on religion on
21 that website?
14:43:15 24 Q. Is it true that you wrote a 400-page dissertation
25 on microaggression?

463
DIRECT OF TERRI PHOENIX BY MR. FULLER
14:43:29 3 Q. Do you think people that criticize transgenderism
4 should be thrown in jail?
14:43:37 7 MR. FULLER: I'm finished with the witness. She
8 can step down.
14:43:39 9 THE COURT: Any questions for the State?
14:43:43 11 THE COURT: Dr. Phoenix, you may step down.
14:43:45 12 THE WITNESS: Sure.
14:43:45 14 THE COURT: At this time, I call upon the
15 defendant to call his next witness.
14:43:48 16 MR. FULLER: I want to point out --
14:43:49 17 THE COURT: No, you are not going to point out
18 anything for the record in front of this jury. If you have
19 something to point out for the record, you will do it
20 outside their presence.
14:43:57 21 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to ask you to step
22 to the jury room for a minute. I need to address something
23 outside your presence. Thank you.

464
1 the jury.)
14:44:34 2 THE COURT: All right. The jury is absent now,
3 sir. I will be happy for you to put whatever you want to in
4 the record.
14:44:39 5 MR. FULLER: Okay. Maybe we'll take a little
6 break. I'm ready to rest and put it to the jury, and
7 actually make the closing arguments. I'm still really irked
8 we are even here. I think this is the most ridiculous case
9 in the history of the United States.
14:44:51 10 THE COURT: You are certainly entitled to your
11 opinion about that; and if I was sitting in your chair, I'm
12 not sure I wouldn't agree with you; but I'm not. So if you
13 are not going to call any more witnesses, then the next
14 thing that would happen, if you want to, you can announce in
15 the presence of the jury that you have rested your case or
16 you can just not do that and we will move into the next
17 step. Which do you prefer?
14:45:17 18 MR. FULLER: I will not do it because I still
19 insist for legal reasons that I wanted to bring more
20 witnesses, but the judge would not allow it.
14:45:25 21 THE COURT: I'm happy for you to call any witness
22 that you have available right now, and I understand -- and
23 I'm not trying to provoke you. If you don't have any more
24 witnesses, in the exercise of this Court's discretion, you
25 can call your witnesses now or you can rest. That's your

465
1 choice.
14:45:39 2 MR. FULLER: I am unable, due to the tremendous
3 work by the UNC lawyer right there, to get anyone here.
14:45:45 4 THE COURT: Okay. At the -- will there be any
5 rebuttal?
14:45:50 7 THE COURT: All right. Then the evidence is
8 closed.
14:45:52 9 THE DEFENSE RESTS
14:45:55 10 THE COURT: The next step in the proceedings is
11 the charge conference; and I'm going to do that, of course,
12 outside the presence of the jury. And I will take our
13 recess at this time to give everybody time to prepare for
14 the charge conference. In anticipation of that, I have
15 drafted sort of a draft of the jury instructions so that we
16 will have a document to work from during the charge
17 conference.
14:46:20 18 Madam Clerk, would you hand it to the sheriff? I
19 have got a copy for each of you, and that's -- that's sort
20 of where we are going to start from, and I will be happy to
21 hear from both sides as to any proposed changes or
22 additions or deletions to those instructions at
23 3:00 o'clock.
14:46:38 24 MR. FULLER: Okay. I just want to ask you --
14:46:39 25 THE COURT: I'm going to bring the jury back, let

466
1 them go --
14:46:42 2 MR. FULLER: (Interposing; indiscernable)
14:46:42 3 THE COURT: -- and then I'll let you talk some
4 more; okay?
14:46:43 5 Bring the jury back please.
8 of the jury.)
14:47:26 9 THE COURT: All right. The jury is present in the
10 courtroom. Ladies and gentlemen, the evidence in this case
11 is complete.
14:47:32 12 Now, at the conclusion of all the evidence, it's
13 my duty to confer with both sides to hear their arguments
14 as to the instructions that I should give to you. That
15 typically takes a while. It's hard for me to say exactly
16 how long it's going to take so I'm going to excuse you
17 until 3:30 because we are going to take a little break, and
18 then I'm going to do this charge conference. And I will
19 check back in with you at 3:30 and let you know how we are
20 doing. But if you will, please be back in the jury pool or
21 jury lounge room at 3:30 ready to proceed.
14:48:14 22 And remember, you still haven't heard it all.
23 Keep an open mind. Remember all the rest of the rules, and
24 we will see you back here at 3:30.

467
2 the jury.)
14:49:00 3 THE COURT: Okay. The jury is absent to return at
4 3:30. We are going to go into recess until 3:00 o'clock,
5 and then we will have the charge conference, and I will hear
6 whatever you want to say at 3:00 o'clock. All right. Thank
7 you.
15:00:17 14 THE COURT: Let the record show that Mr. Fuller is
15 present, the State is present, and the jury is absent.
15:00:21 16 CHARGE CONFERENCE
15:00:21 17 THE COURT: We are in a charge conference. I will
18 hear first from the State as to any suggestions for
19 additions, deletions, or modifications of the proposed
20 instructions.
15:00:32 21 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, the only thing the
22 State would request would be a jury instruction that is in
23 accordance with Your Honor's ruling regarding Section E of
24 the statute. The State believes that Mr. Fuller might make
25 an argument regarding that section. I would ask for a

468
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 limiting instruction.
15:00:50 2 THE COURT: All right. Let me tell you, I
3 anticipated that you would ask for that. And my attempt to
4 do that is -- I don't have these pages numbered, but it's
5 the second to the last page. It's four paragraphs from the
6 bottom where I have added:
15:01:05 7 [as read] The issues as I have explained them to
8 you are the only issues for you to answer. You
9 are not to concern yourself with any other issues.
15:01:14 10 That was my attempt to address that. Would you
11 like to be heard further?
15:01:18 12 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. The only --
15:01:20 13 THE COURT: I'm just -- I'm really wary about
14 instructing them with any specifics because it's really easy
15 to conflate the content of the e-mails and his purpose in
16 sending them, and I don't want to -- I don't want the jury
17 thinking that they have any role to play at all in the
18 content of the e-mails so that's where I'm coming from, but
19 I will hear you.
15:01:47 20 MR. COURLANG: Yes, sir. That makes complete
21 sense to the State, and we are satisfied with what Your
22 Honor wishes to do with regards to these instructions. The
23 State is just concerned about any confusing arguments made
24 to the jury.
15:01:57 25 THE COURT: Well, I -- I think I can address that

469
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 in a different way. I'm going to remind Mr. Fuller --
2 because he doesn't know the rules -- the same rules that I'm
3 going to tell the jury about what is a proper and not a
4 proper argument. I'm not going to put any of that in the
5 jury instructions per se.
15:02:19 7 THE COURT: The only other thing that I thought
8 that -- because I prepared this before I knew what all the
9 evidence was going to be -- it doesn't seem to me -- well,
10 actually, there were no photographs or maps introduced into
11 evidence in this case so I thought there might be, and there
12 often are. And I have already instructed the jury as to the
13 one exhibit that was received for illustrative purposes. So
14 I intend to take that out unless you object or unless you
15 object.
15:02:53 16 MR. COURLANG: I have -- I have no objection to
17 that, Your Honor.
15:02:56 18 THE COURT: Okay. Now, Mr. Fuller, I will be glad
19 to hear you with regard to the jury instructions.
15:03:02 20 MR. FULLER: Yes. I have reviewed case law very
21 carefully and will first of all say that the jury must be
22 informed of Dr. Grotsky's report. There is a finding of
23 fact within the state that I do have a mental disorder.
24 That must be considered in regard to this notion of
25 voluntary act, which is presumably referred in to your four

470
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 paragraphs. They have to be informed, and we are going to
2 have to figure out the actual language of that because
3 that's -- it's a complicated disorder.
15:03:33 4 And I think -- or I would not be opposed to you
5 just putting the whole Grotsky report in there, besides us
6 fighting about every word. Otherwise, we're going to sit
7 here all afternoon because I'm not going to give on that
8 and just have some quick word. It's a complicated
9 disorder, and he has elucidated a number of things in
10 there.
15:03:52 11 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Fuller, there are a couple
12 things about that. One, the law requires you to give the
13 State notice of --
15:03:58 14 MR. FULLER: I did -- I did give them notice.
15:04:00 15 THE COURT: -- of mental health defenses.
15:04:00 16 MR. FULLER: And I did. I was aware of that and
17 gave those in advance.
15:04:10 18 THE COURT: Well, I didn't see that in the file,
19 which is not surprising since this is the file.
15:04:12 20 MR. FULLER: I made a notice specifically to
21 Mr. Courlang, and I think it's also made to the defense --
15:04:18 22 THE COURT REPORTER: And you think what?
15:04:18 23 MR. FULLER: It's my understanding it was made to
24 the defense. But even if it's not made to you, as an
25 accommodation, because people without ADD don't understand

471
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 all these rules, you should -- you must --
15:04:28 2 THE COURT: Okay. I -- I get that. But aside
3 from that, there is not any evidence of that. So I will
4 take your request as a request for a special jury
5 instruction, and that request is denied.
15:04:47 6 Okay. Anything else?
15:04:49 7 MR. FULLER: I think that's crazy, but you are
8 going to be a part of the federal lawsuit now. I mean, you
9 just denied --
15:04:55 10 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I'm not going to argue
11 with you. My rulings are my rulings.
15:04:59 12 MR. FULLER: -- (interposing) what the State
13 Supreme Court has already said.
15:05:02 14 THE COURT: You have the ability to appeal my
15 rulings if you are convicted.
15:05:05 16 MR. FULLER: See, you don't understand. You are
17 acting as a federal administrator. I just want you to know,
18 all the judges, this is why they are all being sued because
19 they misunderstand the law. I'm sorry, but you do. You are
20 not acting as a judge. When you do ADA stuff, it is acting
21 as an administrator of the federal program. And that's why
22 you don't fall under state law. That's why the immunity has
23 been quashed. I've already quashed all those. Okay. I
24 told you to be aware of that because you -- when you said
25 that, you are now pulled into the federal suit because you

472
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 have just said you will not apply the ADA law and all this
2 case law that says you have to do that. And I just have to
3 point it out to you one more time. You are welcome not to
4 do so. I really -- you sound like a nice guy, but --
15:05:41 5 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I respectfully disagree
6 with you about what that law requires me to do.
15:05:47 7 MR. FULLER: I would also request, on another
8 point, what is termed an e-mail is really complicated. I
9 have researched the case law. We need to explain to the
10 jury what an electronic communication is because it has to
11 be sent, received or read; and then we get into
12 jurisdictional aspects. And I have always claimed that UNC
13 did not have jurisdiction. They never proved jurisdiction
14 in the (indiscernable word) case. I guess --
15:06:10 15 THE COURT REPORTER: They never proved
16 jurisdiction -- turn on your mic' please.
15:06:11 17 MR. FULLER: In the earlier court we have had
18 sworn testimony that the lady that's in Washington, DC, for
19 almost all of the time, so I don't understand how UNC got
20 involved with all of this.
15:06:21 21 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fuller has requested
22 that I define electronic mail. I will do that. Let me get
23 to where I am here. I will do that.
15:06:34 24 MR. FULLER: I am just furious that Dr. Grotsky's
25 report is just hidden.

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CHARGE CONFERENCE
15:06:40 1 THE COURT: And I will let the record reflect
2 that.
15:06:43 3 Now, so where I'm going to put that is after I
4 say: For you to find the defendant guilty -- well, let me
5 tell you where I am. I am on the second page, almost all
6 the way down, starting with the word:
15:06:56 7 [as read] First, that the defendant communicated
8 to Dr. Lisa Zerden by way of electronic mail.
15:07:02 9 And then I will add the statutory definition of
10 electronic mail, which is:
15:07:06 11 [as read] The transmission of information or
12 communication by the use of the Internet, a
13 computer, a facsimile machine, a pager, a cellular
14 telephone, a video recorder, or other electronic
15 means sent to a person identified by a unique
16 address or address number and received by that
17 person.
15:07:26 18 Okay. That's how I'm going to define electronic
19 mail because that's how it's defined in the statute.
15:07:32 20 Are there other requests?
15:07:35 21 MR. FULLER: I would request the Court grant me
22 all reasonable assistance that would be neutral, based upon
23 the Supreme Court's decision in Turner v. Rogers. In other
24 words, when I am facing jail time, you have to act as a
25 neutral person when I'm self-represented. That is -- that

474
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 is a Supreme Court decision out of 2011, and I'm requesting
2 in your best -- for you to help me if there is anything in
3 your expertise -- I don't understand any of this stuff --
4 that you think would make the deal fairer for me; and I will
5 just leave it to your discretion.
15:08:12 6 THE COURT: Ummm -- outside the presence of the
7 jury, which we are, I have decided not to make an issue out
8 of the fact that you keep referring to the possibility of
9 going to jail. You know good and well I can't put you in
10 jail, and I'm not going to; okay? You are allowed under the
11 law to let the jury know the statutory maximum punishment
12 for the crime you are charged with, and I will continue
13 allowing you to do that. So that's what I got to say about
14 that.
15:08:51 15 MR. FULLER: Can I just say one thing?
15:08:53 17 MR. FULLER: I don't -- I think the reason I'm
18 suing everyone -- and you are going to be included in it
19 too -- is that the USDOJ has already gotten in a huge
20 lawsuit with the state in 2012, and I'm covered under it.
21 And the settlement runs until 2022. And so a lot of people
22 just aren't aware that the state has already agreed to do
23 all this stuff in writing. And so that is the basis of a
24 lot of this, and that's why the judges are now going to be
25 pulled into Craven County and -- and will sit as defendants.

475
CHARGE CONFERENCE
15:09:23 1 And I would just -- make up your own decisions.
2 But -- but there's immense case law that says the jury
3 should be informed that the State has already paid for this
4 expert and he -- he -- they should be informed of that,
5 that they have to be informed of that when assessing this.
6 And you can make --
15:09:41 7 THE COURT: Okay. I understand that that is your
8 contention that that's what the law is, and I respectfully
9 disagree with you.
15:09:47 10 Anything else you would like me to include in
11 these jury instructions?
15:09:51 12 MR. FULLER: As I said, I will leave it to your
13 discretion on my behalf. I'm so mad right now.
15:09:57 15 MR. FULLER: Jesus Christ, I mean, I went to see
16 him four times. Like I said, he interviewed my family, my
17 friends, my wife; and no one even knows that the expert has
18 already said the case should never be brought. The State's
19 own expert that goes before the Supreme Court has already
20 said that. And yet you -- you block it up, and you won't
21 let it into evidence. I don't understand why -- why this
22 is. I don't understand.
15:10:19 23 THE COURT: Okay. Having heard no further request
24 for jury instructions, those will be the jury instructions.
15:10:27 25 I'm going to bring the jury back at 3:30. We are

476
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 going to start with closing arguments. Will the State be
2 opening and closing or only closing?
15:10:36 3 MR. COURLANG: The State will waive opening and
4 reserve final argument.
15:10:40 5 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
15:10:52 6 Mr. Fuller, I want to read to you the instructions
7 I'm going to give to the jury about final arguments; and
8 I'm going to hold you to this law. What I will tell them
9 right before the final arguments are made is:
15:11:07 10 [as read] Ladies and gentlemen, all of the
11 evidence has been presented. It is now time for
12 the final arguments of the lawyers.
15:11:13 13 And since you are not a lawyer, I'm going to say
14 "the parties." I don't want to prejudice you in any way or
15 the other by calling him a lawyer and calling you something
16 else so you are both parties.
15:11:23 17 At the conclusion of these arguments, I will
18 instruct you on the law in this case; and then you
19 will be taken to the jury room to begin your
20 deliberations. The final arguments of the parties
21 are not evidence but are given to assist you in
22 evaluating the evidence.
15:11:36 23 The parties are permitted in their final
24 statements to argue, to characterize the evidence,
25 and to attempt to persuade you to a particular

477
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 verdict. It is not proper for a party in a final
2 argument to become abusive, to inject personal
3 experiences, to express a personal belief as to
4 the truth or falsity of the evidence, or to make
5 arguments on the basis of matters outside the
6 record. The party may, however, on the basis of
7 the party's analysis of the evidence, argue any
8 position or conclusion with respect to a matter in
9 issue.
15:12:18 10 If, in the course of making a final argument, a
11 party attempts to restate a portion of the
12 evidence and your recollection of the evidence
13 differs from that of the lawyer -- or excuse me,
14 the party -- you are, in recalling and remembering
15 the evidence, to be guided exclusively by your own
16 recollection of the evidence.
15:12:36 17 Now, this Court has ruled -- and some of it, I
18 guess, has been implicitly, but I think there was an
19 explicit ruling -- on your venue motion, as a matter of
20 law, that jurisdiction is proper in this court, that venue
21 is proper in this court, and that the behavior that is
22 sought to be punished in this case is not Constitutionally
23 protected. You may not argue to this jury any of those
24 three things because the Court has already decided that
25 those issues are not for the jury to decide. They are to

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CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 decide the four elements as I have outlined in my jury
2 instructions. You are free to argue that the State has
3 failed to prove or that there is a reasonable doubt about
4 those four elements.
15:13:40 5 MR. FULLER: I want to talk about the adversarial
6 process.
15:13:44 7 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Hang on. I anticipate
8 that you might ask me, "Well, what are you going to do to me
9 if I do argue those things?" I'm not going to hold you in
10 contempt of court. I'm going to interrupt you, and I'm
11 going to tell the jury that that's not proper for their
12 consideration. Okay?
15:13:59 14 I would like to talk about -- I am just thinking
15 of this but, I mean --
15:14:07 17 MR. FULLER: -- it's good for me to talk about my
18 emotions. Every time you tell me I can't talk about facts,
19 I just like to talk about how I feel and about the work that
20 I have done for the State of North Carolina, in my role as a
21 judge in that specialty court, the way we tried to help
22 people. And the adversarial process, it just drives me
23 crazy.
15:14:29 24 THE COURT: I understand --
15:14:30 25 MR. FULLER: That's what I wanted to say.

479
CHARGE CONFERENCE
15:14:30 1 THE COURT: I understand, and I have done my best
2 to take that into consideration.
15:14:34 3 MR. FULLER: Can -- can I discuss that, just how I
4 feel about the adversarial process?
15:14:42 5 THE COURT: I will let you -- I will let you get
6 into that to some degree.
15:14:47 7 I want to remind you that you had a choice whether
8 to testify or not so if you are frustrated by the fact that
9 you can't get into some of your evidence with this jury,
10 it's because you chose not to put it on. So don't talk
11 about things that aren't in evidence unless they are --
15:15:12 12 MR. FULLER: Well, I --
15:15:12 13 THE COURT: -- reasonable inferences to be drawn
14 from the evidence.
15:15:14 15 MR. FULLER: I will say every subpoena that I have
16 done has been knocked out. I mean, it's just an outrage
17 that I have requested so much stuff. I don't want to get
18 into it.
15:15:22 19 THE COURT: Okay. I'm just --
15:15:22 20 MR. FULLER: Let's go ahead and get this kangaroo
21 court wrapped up and go home.
15:15:26 22 THE COURT: All right. In the exercise of the
23 Court's discretion pursuant to statute, I'm going to limit
24 each side to one hour. You don't have to take an hour, but
25 can't take more than an hour. All right. And we will bring

480
CHARGE CONFERENCE
1 the jury --
15:15:38 2 Mr. Sheriff, if you would please be out there and
3 sort of get everybody and let's have them in here at
4 3:00 o'clock; all right -- or, excuse me, 3:30. If they
5 are all out there, bring them on back because we are ready
6 for them. As soon as they are all back, just bring them on
7 in. Thank you.
15:15:53 8 BAILIFF COLLINS: Yes, sir.
12 of the jury.)
14 that the jury is present in the courtroom. Mr. Fuller is
15 present. The State is present.
15:22:06 16 Ladies and gentlemen, all of the evidence has been
17 presented. It's now time for the final arguments of the
18 parties. At the conclusion of these arguments, I will
19 instruct you on the law in this case; and then you will be
20 taken to the jury room to begin your deliberations. In the
21 exercise of my discretion, each side will be limited to one
22 hour.
15:22:28 23 The final arguments of the parties are not
24 evidence but are given to assist you in evaluating the
25 evidence. The parties are permitted in their final

481
DEFENDANT'S CLOSING ARGUMENT
1 statements to argue, to characterize the evidence, and to
2 attempt to persuade you to a particular verdict. It is not
3 proper for a party in a final argument to become abusive,
4 to inject personal experiences, to express a personal
5 belief as to the truth or falsity of the evidence, or to
6 make arguments on the basis of matters outside the record.
7 The party may, however, on the basis of the party's
8 analysis of the evidence, argue any position or conclusion
9 with respect to a matter in issue.
15:23:06 10 If, in the course of making a final argument, a
11 party attempts to restate a portion of the evidence and
12 your recollection of the evidence differs from that of the
13 party, you are, in recalling and remembering the evidence,
14 to be guided exclusively by your own recollection of the
15 evidence.
15:23:23 16 The jury is with the Defendant, Mr. Fuller.
15:23:27 17 MR. FULLER: I'm a little upset. I'm going to
18 walk over. Can I walk over?
15:23:31 20 DEFENDANT'S CLOSING ARGUMENT
15:23:33 21 MR. FULLER: I just wanted to look at them. I --
22 I am very confused on exactly what I can say. I just wanted
23 to look at you all and tell you a little bit about why I'm
24 so upset. I have a bit of a -- an impairment that's caused
25 some problems, and I have overcome them and ended up going

482
1 to graduate school. But there has always been some
2 problems, and I can get very emotional at times. And in
3 looking at this -- and I guess -- and why I become so upset
4 in this process relates to what is termed the "adversarial
5 process" itself.
15:24:24 6 That in -- I mentioned a few times that I have
7 served as a judge in the specialty court as it relates to
8 complex real estate disputes. It's a court of record, so I
9 would have the ability to issue orders. But that
10 particular type of court has a more collaborative approach
11 in which we try to work out problems with different
12 parties, and that's my main experience. It's completely
13 different.
15:24:52 14 In this process -- I have never been through it
15 before; it's been going on almost for two years -- and I --
16 I was just shocked that it has nothing to do with the
17 truth. It's just one side wanting to win and all these
18 technicalities. There has been stuff that's excluded that
19 would just boil your blood in this case, but you will never
20 see it -- it's all been excluded through various clever
21 people -- including their own experts that they have paid
22 for have said, "Don't prosecute this guy."
15:25:27 23 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, may we approach?
15:25:27 24 MR. FULLER: You'll never hear that.

483
15:25:30 1 MR. FULLER: And I spent hours --
15:25:31 3 Ladies and gentlemen, the last statement of
4 Mr. Fuller is not proper for argument. There is no
5 evidence of that, and you shall disregard --
15:25:38 6 MR. FULLER: (Interposing) There is evidence
7 that's been sealed.
15:25:42 9 MR. FULLER: I don't understand this adversarial
10 process. I don't understand why -- you've already got the
11 thing from the psychiatrist.
15:25:49 13 MR. FULLER: It's the State expert that says,
14 "Don't prosecute him."
15:25:52 15 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, disregard the
16 last statement of Mr. Fuller.
15:26:03 17 MR. FULLER: Ummm, I probably do come across as
18 sarcastic sometimes. That's probably nervousness. This
19 case has been going on for so long. There is such a hatred
20 of self-represented parties, the amount of belittling and
21 insulting and -- and degrading. Of course, I was thinking
22 of an example, but I know that they will immediately object.
23 I can hardly even speak about anything because they will
24 object.
15:26:37 25 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are welcome to talk

484
1 about anything that --
15:26:40 2 MR. FULLER: (Interposing) Okay. In that case --
15:26:40 3 THE COURT: -- is in evidence. And if you
4 interrupt --
15:26:42 5 MR. FULLER: (Interposing) Well --
15:26:42 6 THE COURT: -- me again, I'm going to put you in
7 jail. Don't interrupt me.
15:26:48 8 Go ahead.
15:26:49 9 MR. FULLER: I -- I will give you an example. I
10 was very, very sick and I had an infection. And I sent the
11 doctor's note and just right -- like a day before. It said,
12 you know, "Please could I not drive to Chapel Hill? I'm
13 highly infectious." No one responds. I walk in at 9:00. I
14 drive all the way up here. It's about 20 times I have done
15 this. They immediately say, "Oh, you can go now." They
16 just do that to piss me off. That's the only reason they do
17 that, because they don't like self-represented parties.
18 They don't like them. We have so many lawyers. They like
19 to say, "This is our territory. We won't allow anyone to
20 get involved."
15:27:25 21 MR. COURLANG: I'm going to object to this.
24 of Mr. Fuller.
15:27:31 25 MR. FULLER: He acts so nice, him and his cap.

485
1 His wife works for UNC. He is from Brooklyn. He just moved
2 here. He's not from here. My family has lived here
3 forever.
15:27:40 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I'm going to find that you
5 have waived your final argument unless you start complying
6 with my order.
15:27:50 7 MR. FULLER: This case never would have been
8 brought in any other place in the world.
15:27:54 9 MR. COURLANG: Objection to that as well, Your
10 Honor.
15:27:56 11 MR. FULLER: Well, it hasn't.
15:28:02 13 MR. FULLER: It's the first case like this that's
14 ever been in the history of America. Some of you ask,
15 why am I -- why am I self-represented? Well, I got one
16 legal estimate in the defense for this. It's $40,000 they
17 wanted.
15:28:16 18 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, stick to the admissible --
19 the admitted evidence in this case please.
15:28:21 20 MR. FULLER: Well, I will get there. I just want
21 to use my time. I am very emotional. I would like --
22 that's what I don't understand. No one allows me to express
23 emotions. People have feelings. I mean, people do get
24 emotional. Why can that not be a part of the record about
25 how I feel? You have heard -- that lady sat there for a

486
1 bunch of times and tells us how mad she is. How about how
2 mad I am? I have been in the news. My mug shots. I have
3 been arrested. I -- I have had --
15:28:46 4 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to
5 take a recess at this time. I'm going to ask you to go into
6 the jury room. I will call you back when we are finished.
15:28:54 7 Keep an open mind. You haven't heard it all.
8 Remember all the rest of the rulings.
15:28:57 9 Mr. Fuller, have a seat.
12 the jury.)
15:29:35 14 Mr. Fuller, I want you to be able to make your
15 final argument. I want you to present your defense. But
16 if you continue disregarding the orders of this Court, I'm
17 going to find that by your willful misbehavior that you
18 have waived your right to a closing argument. This is your
19 last warning; okay?
15:29:53 20 (No verbal response.)
15:29:54 21 THE COURT: Bring the jury in please.
24 of the jury.)

487
15:31:02 1 Mr. Fuller, you may continue.
15:31:04 2 MR. FULLER: All right. I will try to be more
3 calm and to talk about the evidence. It's my understanding
4 that the evidence -- the only thing that matters in this
5 case is my intentions in sending it. Her response does not
6 matter. So when you look at the case law for this, like
7 someone -- they would send -- like, revenge porn is a great
8 example of these prosecuted under this statute because
9 there's no reason but the intention to annoy and to
10 embarrass. That's a great example. So that's what you are
11 going to find in the case law.
15:31:51 12 Another example of case law when you look at this
13 statute -- because it's very broad -- would be when people
14 get divorced. Maybe the guy bought the dog, but then the
15 wife gets the dog, and the guy threatens to kill the dog.
16 Legally speaking, the dog is personal property so you can't
17 be really arrested for threatening personal property that
18 you bought. But is it annoying? Yeah, it's real annoying.
19 You are going to get charged under the statute and you
20 probably get convicted. It's never been used for upsetting
21 someone over LGBTQ issues.
15:32:26 22 I don't know if I'm going to have an objection
23 here. But, yes, I went to a school where there was -- I
24 don't even want to get into that because I know you will
25 tell me to stop.

488
15:32:35 1 Let's just talk about the case. There is a lot of
2 religious communication in there. I will admit maybe there
3 is a few crazy things in there, but that's not illegal. If
4 you look at -- again, I can't refer to case law. That's
5 another thing that I get annoyed that they think you are so
6 stupid, they won't allow me to even talk about free speech
7 with y'all in case history. I'm not allowed to do that.
8 They think you are so stupid you won't understand it. So
9 all I can talk about -- and it's him is the one that said
10 that, by the way. But anyway --
12 Honor.
15:33:09 14 MR. FULLER: We will talk about the facts of the
15 case. None of it has any proper forensic digital evidence.
16 The case is about electronic communications. It should have
17 an IP address. We got to know the jurisdiction, where --
18 where it was sent from. And they have never proved where it
19 is. We know people were -- I think -- I think it came into
20 evidence that we were on break. I know people were in
21 Washington. That's out -- that's outside the jurisdiction.
22 So none of the evidence even shows the jurisdiction so we
23 don't even know that the University even has jurisdiction
24 over this.
15:33:51 25 We don't have any IP addresses. I can tell you as

489
1 a computer scientist, it's very easy to do that. Something
2 is up if you don't have any IP addresses. There is not one
3 that's come in. There is a reason for that, but they won't
4 tell you why. You are never going to know why. I'm not
5 allowed to tell you why. It's kind of a weird thing. You
6 got look at that.
15:34:11 7 Another thing that's going to be quite weird is we
8 have heard a lot of evidence from this one witness that she
9 was acting on others' behalf. Got to say, it's impossible
10 for, like, my wife to get upset and then I bring a lawsuit,
11 a criminal lawsuit. Is it possible to do that? No, it's
12 not. You have heard from her own mouth that she is acting
13 on others' behalf.
15:34:42 14 I don't know -- I don't want to get them mad at
15 me; but, I mean, I was talking to one lady up there. I
16 said, "How is it going? You been watching this thing.
17 What do you think?"
15:34:52 18 And they said, "That lady is mean as hell."
19 That's what -- that's what they told me. I don't know from
20 y'all's perspective. They thought she was very, very mean.
21 And I can tell you they are a whole lot nicer than they
22 usually are when only I'm around. That's one of the things
23 that drives me crazy about the adversarial. Everybody acts
24 so nice. But when they get around you in private, they are
25 just -- they are after you.

490
15:35:18 1 And I'm not allowed to tell you the plea bargains
2 to make the whole thing go away if I wouldn't sue in
3 federal court. They're not going to tell you that. If
4 something like that happened, I couldn't tell you that.
15:35:28 5 So I don't know. I'm kind of in -- in a bind
6 here. I would appreciate y'all to look at the evidence
7 very carefully, to look at all that religious content, and
8 the -- and the -- and I think you have heard on that
9 tape -- I don't know why the guy put the tape on there.
10 And by the way, he started this case -- and this is a
11 fact -- before he had even finished prosecutor school.
12 He's -- he's --
14 Honor.
15:35:52 15 MR. FULLER: Well, that's true.
15:35:56 17 MR. FULLER: I will say there is a motivation of a
18 lot of people that I found. He gets paid to win or lose.
19 But they love to get a win so they get 100 percent. Still
20 offer you a handshake to make it go away as, long as they
21 can put that in the check box. But this is something I just
22 said, "I'm not going to do that." Again, I'm not going to
23 use profanity here. I have -- and by the way, when you talk
24 about self-represented, I'm not someone that's so arrogant I
25 have a lot of friends that are lawyers. Like I said, I

491
1 worked in the specialty court so I had a lot of people that
2 gave me legal advice.
15:36:28 3 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, would you stick to the
4 facts of the case please?
15:36:31 5 MR. FULLER: Okay. Well, I don't want you to
6 think that I'm someone that just goes out and does things
7 alone. I have consulted a lot of people on this, and I just
8 didn't want to spend 40,000. And so probably it would have
9 been a good deal. This thing has been going about two years
10 now. It's unbelievable the amount of stuff that has gone
11 into this case. There are so many people involved. There
12 is two derivative cases, which I think you already know
13 about. I'm allowed to say that, am I not, two derivative
14 cases?
15:36:59 15 THE COURT: If it's in evidence. And I believe it
16 is so go ahead.
15:37:02 17 MR. FULLER: Okay. And I tell you -- I'm not
18 going to tell you all the details, but I'm trying to be --
19 to inform you of just -- in a way that -- I -- you are going
20 to stop me, but I will try to be very fair about it. Having
21 all these lawyers involved and -- and in my academic
22 background, I'm a pretty educated guy. Like I say, I went
23 to some of the best schools. So I have some friends that
24 are professors of law. And some of them looked at this --
25 this situation that was so strange and suggested that the

492
1 remedies to the question of law is -- if you get a frivolous
2 lawsuit, the remedy unfortunately is another lawsuit.
15:37:47 3 And so I filed, on April the 4th of this year, a
4 federal lawsuit for civil rights abuse. It's never been
5 done in American history against sitting judges, five of
6 them. There is about 300 pages of -- of legal maneuvers
7 that the NCDOJ has put in, and they have not gotten it
8 dismissed. It's unprecedented in American history that a
9 self-represented person is suing sitting judges.
15:38:19 10 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, I'm going to require you
11 to limit your argument --
15:38:22 13 THE COURT: -- to the issues that are at issue --
15:38:25 14 MR. FULLER: Yes. Yes.
15:38:25 15 THE COURT: -- in this case.
15:38:26 16 MR. FULLER: I will stop on that lawsuit so that
17 one is ongoing.
15:38:28 18 And then we have a separate lawsuit that is just
19 between me and the lead witness. And that derives -- I'm
20 not going to tell you all about it other than it would
21 appear she had made a -- it might appear that it was -- the
22 timing of it was to intimidate her because it was filed --
23 I think -- about a month ago. The only reason is that
24 for -- so you will learn things, for defamation you only
25 have a one year -- you got to file. And so it was coming

493
1 up to the deadline, and I had to file it or I would lose
2 all the rights so that's why it was filed; no other reason.
3 In the filing we say we are going to transfer that claim
4 into the federal suit, so that's probably going to go away.
5 But that's that. I won't talk about it more.
15:39:05 6 But those are all the filings I do. Because I
7 have been involved in all of this, I like to always do
8 things called verified complaint, which means when I speak,
9 it's under penalty of perjury. I'm happy to speak that way
10 because I tell the truth. I don't have a problem because
11 if I were to take this one -- I don't take the stand -- I
12 am so slow and methodical in answering, you would have to
13 be perfect. There is, like, a whole way when you got to
14 answer things legally because the problem -- when, like,
15 you have heard someone says, "I don't know, maybe about
16 five about this," if you start talking in generalities,
17 then you can say, "Well, how the hell do you remember all
18 the facts on this if you can't remember that?" Right? So
19 you start using generalities in one thing, it looks kind of
20 weird. So you have just got to be very, very careful when
21 you answer.
15:39:46 22 And I think that maybe the State's witness -- I
23 don't know what her deal is -- but she gets kind of wound
24 up. She can kind of, I would say, tends to exaggerate
25 things. And when you do that enough, she went over the

494
1 line. And I made a legal claim for perjury. It's pretty
2 straight up. You got to take -- and that's ongoing.
3 Again, you can't hear all the details about that. But that
4 has been going on, and it's not been dismissed.
15:40:08 5 So let's get back to this case. I'm going to try
6 to regain my composure here. I do apologize for being
7 annoying. I probably am annoying in some ways. But I want
8 you to see through that. And perhaps I come across
9 sometimes as snobby. That's because I'm scared because I'm
10 under penalty for 60 days in jail. I mean, that's not good
11 for my career to have to go to jail for 60 days. But that
12 is the punishment, the maximum punishment, for this. And
13 so, yeah, that's scary.
15:40:45 14 And, of course, another -- another thing is that
15 just the arrest process itself is -- I don't know if -- I
16 can't ask you anything. But I assume some of y'all have
17 actually been formally arrested. It's very humiliating.
15:40:58 18 MR. COURLANG: Your Honor, I'm going to --
15:41:00 21 THE COURT: -- please stick to the facts of the
22 case.
15:41:03 24 THE COURT: I'm actually going to give you one
25 more chance.

495
15:41:06 1 MR. FULLER: Okay. On the facts of the case, we
2 don't have any IP addresses. We have a witness that's now
3 being sued for perjury that claims there's these blind
4 carbon copies -- I love this thing -- blind carbon copies.
5 No evidence even though they have a whole team of computer
6 scientists at UNC. I thought maybe they could help her out.
7 They have been working on this for about two years, but
8 there is not one evidence of anything. And I can tell you
9 in computer science, you can get an IP address even in a
10 blind carbon copy. This is nonsense. But that's the
11 evidence.
15:41:38 12 And I -- I -- I just become so angry because the
13 State knows that I have a mental disability that -- that
14 affects what's called emotional dysregulation; means when I
15 read -- and they are going to tell me to stop, but
16 anyway -- learn about the promotion of abortion on the
17 website, I become so angry. I become very, very angry. So
18 you have to look at my intent. So is it to annoy or harass
19 her or is it to promote -- and I do -- am someone that
20 teaches sexual ethics for the Catholic Church. And I
21 received a lot of training.
15:42:18 22 I'm married. I have four kids. As I mentioned,
23 it's my anniversary today, actually. And I will not be
24 going home because I'm so tired -- I have been up all night
25 working on this -- so I'm going to go to sleep in the

496
1 hotel. But that's another thing to write off on this
2 thing. I don't know how much money -- I'm not going to go
3 into all that. It's a lot.
15:42:37 4 I just think this thing is crazy. I mean, I will
5 say -- someone asked me in New York, one of my friends,
6 "What have you learned in all this? What have you
7 learned?"
15:42:46 8 And I said, "I have a tremendous empathy for the
9 Black Lives Matter movement."
15:42:51 10 When the police are against you, they don't get --
11 I don't want to use profanity here. It's like you are so
12 helpless. I mean, they just crush -- they can crush you.
13 And I think people with emotional -- some mental
14 impairments -- I think it's especially because I'm so well
15 educated, their reactions would be, "Oh, yeah, you are
16 making all that up."
15:43:15 17 And I think -- I get confused on how much --
18 because there is so many things that are, like, sealed you
19 haven't seen. I get confused on what you have seen and not
20 seen. But at one point, I think the State has argued that
21 I just make all this stuff up, that I'm religious and this
22 and that. It's all made up. It's all this facade, that
23 I'm just this horrible person. And the religious, all of
24 is just made up. And I don't take the stand. I can't
25 defend that, because every time I try to -- he will say,

497
1 don't -- don't testify.
15:43:45 2 But I just was holding this thing. This is a
3 symbol of Carmelite, spirituality, the Carmelite Order.
4 And it means a lot. I mean, it's reflective. Some kind of
5 jokingly call it, it's a monastic G-string. It reflects
6 brown Carmelite, that you would be buried in that if you --
7 if you do these certain things in ancient times and -- and
8 still today.
15:44:09 9 But anyway, when he made the argument that the
10 religion was made up as a way to get out of the case --
15:44:19 11 MR. COURLANG: I object.
15:44:21 13 MR. FULLER: You made the argument.
15:44:23 14 THE COURT: He hasn't argued anything yet.
15:44:27 15 MR. FULLER: Well -- well -- anyway. Ummm.
15:44:29 16 And I think that's one thing I was thinking about
17 when we talk about the Roman Catholic Church, this whole
18 thing is set up there. See this guy, he is on the elevated
19 platform. This is just like how we have it at church. And
20 we have this bar, the communion altar. That's --
15:44:38 21 THE COURT: Let the record -- Mr. Fuller, it's
22 time for you to stop. Let the record reflect that I find
23 that Mr. Fuller's repeated disregard --
15:44:46 25 THE COURT: -- of my orders as to how he is to

498
STATE'S FINAL ARGUMENT
1 conduct his final arguments have created a waiver of the
2 remainder of his final argument.
15:44:55 3 Sir, you may a seat.
15:44:59 4 (The defendant was seated.)
15:44:59 5 THE COURT: The jury is with the State.
15:45:00 6 STATE'S FINAL ARGUMENT
15:45:06 8 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
9 I am not going to take up too much of your time. You have
10 already been here for three days. At this point, you have
11 heard all of the evidence. You have heard from
12 Investigator Barbee, his investigation. You have heard the
13 podcast in which Mr. Shiver was the emcee, Mr. Fuller was
14 the interviewee. You've heard from Dr. Zerden who
15 testified to all the e-mails that she received, 12 in total
16 from Mr. Fuller. This case has been interesting at times.
15:45:39 17 Like I said from the very beginning, it's a
18 straightforward case. Did Mr. Fuller send intentionally
19 harassing communications to Dr. Zerden? We contend we have
20 proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he has indeed done so
21 today.
15:45:53 22 It's a serious case. The State appreciates the
23 jury taking this seriously. It is serious to myself, to
24 the State. It's serious to Dr. Zerden, and it's serious to
25 Investigator Barbee.

499
15:46:07 1 Now, the judge is going to tell you the law. We
2 contend the judge is going to say to find Mr. Fuller guilty
3 of this offense that the State must prove four things
4 beyond a reasonable doubt. The first, that Mr. Fuller
5 communicated to Dr. Zerden by way of electronic mail. We
6 have heard the podcast. Mr. Fuller said himself, "I
7 e-mailed them, yes." We have seen the e-mails, a multitude
8 of them containing Mr. Fuller's name at the bottom, his
9 address, his antitranny.org logo at the bottom. We contend
10 that Mr. Fuller did indeed send these 12 e-mails to
11 Dr. Zerden at in her office in UNC on the campus.
15:46:50 12 Second, that Mr. Fuller did so repeatedly whether
13 or not a conversation ensued. We contend, yes, 12 e-mails,
14 repeatedly, more than one, 12 e-mails.
15:47:02 15 Third, that Mr. Fuller communicated to Dr. Zerden
16 for the purpose of abusing, annoying, threatening,
17 terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing. We contend the
18 proof is in the e-mails themselves. Those e-mails were
19 harassing. They were threatening. They were abusive.
20 They were annoying.
15:47:25 21 And fourth, that Mr. Fuller acted willfully. That
22 is: He intentionally sent these harassing e-mails. We
23 contend that he did. Look to Mr. Fuller's actions to find
24 his intention. First, we heard from Dr. Zerden that
25 Mr. Fuller placed her e-mail on this MailChimp e-mailing

500
1 list without her knowing, without her permission, without
2 her consent, without any solicitation, and sent her a few
3 e-mails. Dr. Zerden reported that to MailChimp and had her
4 name taken off. Mr. Fuller continued to send e-mails to
5 Dr. Zerden, using different e-mail addresses.
15:48:05 6 The question is: Why would one use a multitude of
7 e-mail addresses to send harassing e-mails to one person?
8 We contend that Mr. Fuller's intent was to harass. And
9 that is why he used the number of e-mail addresses:
10 Napier@alum.mit.edu, the politicaloutreach@antitranny.org.
11 We contend that that is indicative of Mr. Fuller's intent
12 to harass.
15:48:32 13 Further, looking at Mr. Fuller's own words. In
14 the podcast he said he wanted his e-mails to be the
15 equivalent of the Jerry Springer Show, you know, the show
16 where people throw chairs. He wanted his e-mails to be the
17 equivalent of people throwing chairs. That's harassment.
18 That's abuse. That's threats.
15:48:55 19 Further, look at Mr. Fuller's e-mails themselves,
20 personal attacks on Dr. Zerden, attacks on Dr. Zerden's
21 colleagues, attacks on UNC School of Social Work, calling
22 them a third-rate university, calling them demonic pagans,
23 filled with profanity, vulgarity, pictures inappropriate to
24 send to a dean of the UNC School of Social Work, pictures
25 of cartoons engaging in sexual acts, pictures of a head in

501
JURY CHARGE
1 a noose. Those are threats. That's abuse.
15:49:38 2 Ladies and gentlemen, I don't want to be up here
3 too long. I want to thank you for serving these past few
4 days. We have taken this seriously. I hope that you have
5 taken this seriously. We contend that we have proven
6 beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Fuller did indeed send
7 these harassing e-mails to Dr. Zerden and ask that you
8 return a verdict of guilty. Thank you.
15:49:59 9 THE COURT: All right. Folks, I'm about to
10 explain the law to you. I'm going to ask you not to take
11 notes while I'm doing that because I'm going to give you a
12 copy of what I'm about to read to you so I want you to hear
13 it, and then you'll have it in written form. I want you
14 paying attention.
15:50:13 15 JURY CHARGE
15:50:15 16 THE COURT: Members of the jury, all of the
17 evidence has been presented.
15:50:17 18 Can everybody hear me okay? All right.
15:50:18 19 It is now your duty to decide from this evidence
20 what the facts are. You must then apply the law, which I'm
21 about to give you, to those facts. It is absolutely
22 necessary that you understand and apply the law as I give
23 it to you and not as you think it is or as you might like
24 it to be. This is important because justice requires that
25 everyone tried for the same crime be treated in the same

502
JURY CHARGE
1 way and have the same law applied.
15:50:44 2 Mr. Fuller has entered a plea of not guilty. The
3 fact that he has been charged is no evidence of guilt.
4 Under our system of justice, when a defendant pleads not
5 guilty, he is not required to prove his innocence. The
6 defendant is presumed to be innocent. The State must prove
7 to you that he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
15:51:06 8 A reasonable doubt is a doubt --
15:51:09 9 Would you turn your microphone off now please.
15:51:12 10 MR. FULLER: Excuse me. I'm actually just eating
11 my candy.
15:51:14 12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
15:51:15 13 A reasonable doubt is a doubt based on reason and
14 common sense arising out of some or all of the evidence
15 that has been presented or lack or insufficiency of the
16 evidence as the case may be. Proof beyond a reasonable
17 doubt is proof that fully satisfies or entirely convinces
18 you of the defendant's guilt.
15:51:33 19 You are the sole judges of the believability of
20 witnesses. You must decide for yourselves whether to
21 believe the testimony of any witness. You may believe all,
22 any part, or none of a witness's testimony. In deciding
23 whether to believe a witness, you should use the same tests
24 of truthfulness that you use in your everyday lives. Among
25 other things, these tests may include: The opportunity of

503
JURY CHARGE
1 the witness to see, hear, know, or remember the facts or
2 occurrences about which the witness testified; the manner
3 and appearance of the witness; any interest, bias,
4 prejudice, or partiality the witness may have; the apparent
5 understanding and fairness of the witness; whether the
6 testimony is reasonable; and whether the testimony is
7 consistent with other believable evidence in the case.
15:52:26 8 You are the sole judges of the weight to be given
9 any evidence. If you decide that certain evidence is
10 believable, you must then determine the importance of that
11 evidence in light of all other believable evidence in the
12 case.
15:52:40 13 The defendant in this case has not testified. The
14 law gives the defendant this privilege. This same law also
15 assures the defendant that this decision not to testify
16 creates no presumption against the defendant. Therefore,
17 the silence of the defendant is not to influence your
18 decision in any way.
15:53:00 19 There are two types of evidence from which you may
20 find the truth as to the facts of a case, direct and
21 circumstantial evidence. Direct evidence is the testimony
22 of one who asserts actual knowledge of a fact, such as an
23 eyewitness. Circumstantial evidence is proof of a chain or
24 group of facts and circumstances indicating the guilt or
25 innocence of the defendant. The law makes no distinction

504
JURY CHARGE
1 between the weight to be given to either direct or
2 circumstantial evidence, nor is a greater degree of
3 certainty required of circumstantial evidence than of
4 direct evidence. You should weigh all the evidence in the
5 case. After weighing all the evidence, if you are not
6 convinced of the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable
7 doubt, you must find the defendant not guilty.
15:53:46 8 You may find that a witness is interested in the
9 outcome of this trial. You may take the witness's interest
10 into account in deciding whether to believe the witness.
11 If you believe the testimony of the witness in whole or in
12 part, you should treat what you believe the same as any
13 other believable evidence.
15:54:05 14 If you find from the evidence that the defendant
15 has admitted a fact related to the crime charged in this
16 case, then you should consider all of the circumstances
17 under which it was made in determining whether it was a
18 truthful admission and the weight you will give to it.
15:54:21 19 The defendant has been charged with cyberstalking.
20 For you to find the defendant guilty of this offense, the
21 State must prove four things beyond a reasonable doubt:
22 First, that the defendant communicated to Dr. Lisa Zerden
23 by way of electronic mail -- electronic mail is the
24 transmission of information or communications by the use of
25 the Internet, a computer, a facsimile machine, a pager, a

505
JURY CHARGE
1 cellar telephone, a video recorder, or other electronic
2 means sent to a person identified by a unique address or
3 address number and received by that person; second, that
4 the defendant did so repeatedly whether or not a
5 conversation ensued; third, that the defendant communicated
6 to Dr. Zerden for the purpose of abusing, annoying,
7 threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing her;
8 and fourth, that the defendant acted willfully; that is
9 intentionally. Acting willfully means acting voluntarily,
10 intentionally, purposefully, and deliberately, indicating a
11 purpose to do it without authority and in violation of law.
15:55:38 12 Intent is a mental attitude seldom provable by
13 direct evidence. It must ordinarily be proved by
14 circumstances from which it may be inferred. You arrive at
15 the intent of a person by such just and reasonable
16 deductions from the circumstances proven as a reasonably
17 prudent person would ordinarily draw therefrom.
15:56:00 18 If you find from the evidence beyond a reasonable
19 doubt that on or about the alleged dates the defendant
20 willfully communicated with Dr. Zerden repeatedly by way of
21 electronic mail for the purpose of abusing, annoying,
22 threatening, terrifying, harassing, or embarrassing her, it
23 would be your duty to return a verdict of guilty. If you
24 do not so find or have a reasonable doubt as to one or more
25 of these things, it would be your duty to return a verdict

506
JURY CHARGE
1 of not guilty.
15:56:32 2 The issues as I have explained them to you are the
3 only issues for you to answer. You are not to concern
4 yourself with any other issues.
15:56:42 5 Members of the jury, you have heard the evidence
6 and the arguments of the parties. If your recollection of
7 the evidence -- excuse me -- if your recollection of the
8 evidence differs from that of the parties, you are to rely
9 solely upon your recollection. Your duty is to remember
10 the evidence whether called to your attention or not. You
11 should consider all the evidence, the arguments,
12 contentions, and positions urged by the parties, and any
13 other contention that arises from the evidence.
15:57:09 14 The law requires the presiding judge to be
15 impartial. You should not infer from anything I have done
16 or said that the evidence is to be believed or disbelieved,
17 that a fact has been proved, or what your findings ought to
18 be. It is your duty to find the facts and to render a
19 verdict reflecting the truth. All 12 of you must agree to
20 your verdict. You cannot reach a verdict by majority vote.
15:57:34 21 And that brings me to Ms. Freeman -- do any of the
22 other 12 of you know of any reason why you can't complete
23 your jury service? Do any of you feel like you are getting
24 sick or anything like that? If so, please raise your hand.
15:57:50 25 (No response.)

507
JURY CHARGE
15:57:50 1 THE COURT: All right. I see that no hands are
2 raised.
15:57:53 3 Ms. Freeman, I'm going to ask you to have a seat
4 out in the courtroom, and I will have some further
5 instructions for you in just a minute. Do you have any
6 personal items in this jury room?
15:58:02 7 ALTERNATE JUROR: No.
15:58:03 8 THE COURT: All right. If you will have a seat in
9 the courtroom. Leave your belongings -- your notepad and
10 your exhibit in your chair please.
15:58:10 11 ALTERNATE JUROR: Sure.
15:58:10 12 (The Alternate Juror left the jury box and was seated
13 in the gallery.)
15:58:11 14 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that the
15 alternate has been discharged.
15:58:17 16 Have you got an envelope for me?
15:58:20 17 All right. When you have agreed upon a unanimous
18 verdict as to the charge -- this says all the charges;
19 there is only one; that's my typo -- your foreperson should
20 so indicate on the verdict form. The verdict form looks
21 like this. I'm going to send it back there with you. And
22 it reads:
15:58:37 23 [as read] We, the jury, unanimously find the
24 Defendant, Napier Sandford Fuller to be -- and you
25 have two choices -- guilty of cyberstalking or not

508
JURY CHARGE
1 guilty.
15:58:45 2 So when you have a choice, mark whichever one it
3 is. Date this verdict sheet. Have your foreperson sign it
4 and print their name, and then put it back in this
5 envelope.
15:58:54 6 Also in this envelope, I will put a copy of these
7 jury instructions for your consideration. And I'm going to
8 put a blank legal pad and a pen. The purpose for the blank
9 legal pad and the pen is: If you find that you have
10 questions that you would like to ask me while you are
11 deliberating, the only way you can do that is to have your
12 foreperson write the question on one of these pieces of
13 paper, knock on the door. The sheriff will deliver the
14 question to me. I will decide how I'm going to answer your
15 question after I have heard the arguments from them, and
16 then I will bring you back in here to answer your question.
17 So that's what that's for.
15:59:34 18 After reaching the jury room, your first order of
19 business is to select your foreperson. You may see that we
20 have rules for almost everything around here. We don't
21 have a rule for that. You just have to decide that on your
22 own. Pick a foreperson. You may begin your deliberations
23 when the sheriff delivers the verdict form to you. Your
24 foreperson should lead the deliberations.
15:59:54 25 When you have unanimously agreed upon a verdict as

509
JURY CHARGE
1 to the charge -- and I'm going to correct that; that's my
2 typo. When you have unanimously agreed upon a verdict as
3 to the charge and are ready to announce the verdict, your
4 foreperson should record your verdict, sign and date the
5 verdict form, and notify the sheriff by knocking on the
6 jury room door. You will be returned to the courtroom, and
7 your verdicts will be announced.
16:00:24 8 Now, thank you. I want you to just go back in
9 there and select your foreperson. And when you do that,
10 knock on the door. Thank you very much.
16:00:38 11 BAILIFF COLLINS: You may take your notebooks.
16:00:39 12 THE COURT: Yeah. I forgot. Take your notebooks,
13 but not your -- not your exhibits, just your notebooks. You
14 can -- you can use your notebooks to refresh your memory,
15 but the exhibits stay out here.
16:00:55 16 JUROR NO. THREE: The exhibit was useful because I
17 have a copy of the actual statute.
16:01:01 18 JUROR NO. EIGHT: Yes.
16:01:01 19 THE COURT: Sir, if you have something you want to
20 ask me, put it on this piece of paper.
16:01:06 21 JUROR NO. THREE: Understood.
24 the jury.)

510
JURY DELIBERATIONS AND QUESTIONS TO THE COURT
16:01:21 1 Anything for the State as to the instructions?
16:01:26 4 MR. FULLER: I'm still mad you didn't put the
5 Grotsky thing in there.
16:01:32 6 THE COURT: Okay. I will note that for the
7 record.
16:01:33 8 Anything else?
16:01:34 9 All right. Hearing nothing, we are at ease until
10 the jury picks a foreperson.
16:01:38 11 BAILIFF COLLINS: Court stands at ease.
16:01:52 12 MR. COURLANG: You want to address the alternate?
16:01:54 13 THE COURT: Oh, sorry. Ms. Freeman, you are now
14 discharged from your duty --
16:01:59 15 (Knock from inside the jury room at 4:01 p.m..)
16:01:59 16 THE COURT: Hang on. Yeah. Mr. Sheriff, we have
17 a knock. If that is a foreperson, please deliver this to
18 the foreperson and direct them to begin their deliberations.
16:02:16 19 All right. Let the record reflect deliberations
20 began at 4:03 p.m.
16:02:19 21 (The verdict sheets were delivered to the jury for
22 commencement of their deliberations at 4:02 p.m.)
16:02:24 23 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller and Mr. Courlang, you are
24 not required to stay right in the courtroom; but I need you
25 to be where I can get you quickly because they often have

511
1 questions fast, and I need you here if they have a question.
16:02:36 2 Now, Ms. Freeman, thank you for your service. You
3 are about to be discharged. You are now relieved from all
4 of my rules except for one. You can't have any contact or
5 communication with any of those 12 people until they reach
6 a verdict. You are now free to talk about the case if you
7 want to. You are also free not to talk about the case if
8 you don't want to. That's completely up to you. You can
9 stay or you can go. Thank you very much.
16:03:02 10 (The Alternate Juror was discharged from further
11 duties.)
16:03:02 12 THE COURT: We will be at ease.
16:27:00 14 (The jury informed the Court that it had reached a
15 verdict at 4:27 p.m.)
21 Mr. Fuller is present, the State is present, the jury is
22 absent. They have announced that they have a verdict.
23 Would you bring the jury in please.

512
1 of the jury.)
3 are present in the courtroom.
16:28:12 4 Would the foreperson of this jury please stand and
5 identify themselves for the record.
16:28:16 6 THE FOREPERSON: I am the foreperson. My name is
7 Thomas Dunder.
16:28:18 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dunder, I have a
9 series of yes-or-no questions for you; and I need you to be
10 careful only to answer them "yes" or "no." Has this jury
11 returned a unanimous verdict?
16:28:30 12 THE FOREPERSON: Yes.
16:28:30 13 THE COURT: Have you indicated the verdict on the
14 verdict form?
16:28:34 15 THE FOREPERSON: We have, yes.
16:28:34 16 THE COURT: Have you dated it, signed it, and put
17 your name on it?
16:28:36 18 THE FOREPERSON: Yes.
16:28:37 19 THE COURT: Would you hand it to the sheriff,
20 please, and then have a seat.
16:28:41 21 (Bailiff delivered the verdict packet to the Court.)
16:28:46 22 THE COURT: All right. Folks, I don't have any
23 idea what this says. I want to caution everybody who is in
24 the audience that a verdict in a criminal case is neither a
25 time for celebration nor for demonstration. If there is

513
READING OF THE VERDICT
1 anyone in this courtroom, except you, Mr. Fuller, who thinks
2 that they can't control themselves after they hear this
3 verdict, they might be inclined to demonstrate in one way or
4 another, I'm going to invite you to leave the courtroom at
5 this time because I'm not going to tolerate it. All right.
16:29:24 6 Madam Clerk, take the verdict.
16:29:26 7 READING OF THE VERDICT
16:29:28 8 THE CLERK: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you
9 have returned with the following verdict in the State of
10 North Carolina, County of Orange, File Number 17 CRS 50340,
11 State of North Carolina v. Napier Sandford Fuller: We, the
12 jury, unanimously find the defendant, Napier Sandford
13 Fuller, to be guilty of cyberstalking, this the 9th day of
14 August 2018, Thomas Dunder, foreperson.
16:29:53 15 Is this yourself verdict so say you all?
16:29:56 16 THE COURT: If so please, raise your right hand.
16:30:00 17 (Show of hands.)
16:30:00 18 THE COURT: Let the record reflect that all 12
19 right hands are raised. You may put your hands down.
16:30:05 20 Ladies and gentlemen, I'm about to discharge you
21 from your jury service. Thank you for your service. You
22 have seen firsthand how our court system works, seen when
23 people can't resolve their own disputes, they come to court
24 and 12 citizens resolve them for us; and you have done
25 that.

514
16:30:22 1 You are now relieved from all of my rules. You
2 are free to talk about this case, but you are also free not
3 to talk about the case. I would ask you, out of courtesy
4 to each other and respect for the system, if you do have
5 anything to say about your deliberations, if you would be
6 careful and don't say anything that you wouldn't say in
7 front of your fellow jurors and everybody sitting in this
8 courtroom. Be respectful of the process.
16:30:49 9 Is the State ready to pray judgment?
16:30:54 11 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to have a
12 sentencing hearing right now. I will hear from the State as
13 to sentencing.
16:31:02 14 SENTENCING HEARING
16:31:03 15 MR. COURLANG: Mr. Fuller has no prior criminal
16 convictions. We would submit him as a Level I for
17 sentencing purposes. We would like to be heard on
18 sentencing.
16:31:13 19 THE COURT: Okay. I'll hear you.
16:31:14 20 MR. COURLANG: We would ask for a supervised
21 probationary sentence. Your Honor, we would ask for some
22 conditions to be included in addition to whatever conditions
23 the Court chose to impose.
16:31:25 24 THE COURT: What conditions do you specifically
25 request?

515
SENTENCING HEARING
16:31:27 1 MR. COURLANG: We would ask that during the
2 probationary period, Mr. Fuller to have no contact with
3 people associated with the UNC School of Social Work, the
4 LGBTQ Center, in any way, shape, or form. We would --
5 except for any legal reasoning, Your Honor.
16:31:54 6 THE COURT: Anything else?
16:31:56 7 MR. COURLANG: We would ask that the Court order
8 Mr. Fuller to get a mental health assessment by a state
9 certified mental health assessor and to comply with all
10 recommended treatment.
16:32:14 11 THE COURT: Yes, sir. Anything else?
16:32:15 12 MR. COURLANG: No, Your Honor; whatever else the
13 Court is inclined to impose.
16:32:23 14 THE COURT: I'm probably going to need some
15 language that's a little more specific than "people
16 associated with." I want to make sure that Mr. Fuller is
17 able to comply with the conditions --
16:32:36 18 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. May I have --
16:32:38 19 THE COURT: -- without inadvertently breaking them
20 so can you come up with some better language for me?
16:32:43 21 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. May I have a
22 minute to -- to speak with --
16:32:54 24 MR. FULLER: Judge --
16:32:55 25 THE COURT: I'm going to hear what you have to say

516
SENTENCING HEARING
1 in a minute. I just -- I want to make sure I understand
2 what he wants, and then I'm going to hear what you want, and
3 then I'm going to decide.
16:33:19 5 MR. FULLER: I wanted to enter an appeal.
16:33:21 6 THE COURT: Oh, sure. I know. And I'm going to
7 let you do that, but there is nothing to appeal from yet.
16:33:26 8 MR. FULLER: And there has already been a mental
9 health thing.
16:33:29 10 THE COURT: I'm going to hear what you have to say
11 when it's your turn to talk; okay?
16:33:45 13 THE COURT: How do you propose I word that?
16:33:47 14 MR. COURLANG: We would ask that it be worded to
15 Mr. Fuller to have no contact in any way, shape, or form
16 with any employee, faculty, or student with the UNC School
17 of Social Work or the LGBTQ Center associated with UNC.
16:34:05 19 Now, Mr. Fuller, I will hear what you have to say
20 about sentencing.
16:34:09 21 MR. FULLER: Well, so far as the mental health
22 association (sic), I mean, that's one of the things I wanted
23 the jury -- why I'm so frustrated. It's already been done
24 by the State of North Carolina at great expense. It was
25 shielded from them. And it already said in there, "Do not

517
SENTENCING HEARING
1 prosecute this person who is not guilty," essentially. But
2 they never -- that was shielded from the jury. That's what
3 upsets me so much. I don't understand these procedural
4 things.
16:34:27 5 THE COURT: I understand you being upset. But,
6 Mr. Fuller, I want you to understand -- and maybe it will
7 help you if you do understand -- that that assessment was
8 made to evaluate whether you are competent to proceed; and
9 it was limited to that. So it doesn't address necessarily
10 your mental health issues other than whether you were able
11 to appreciate the proceedings and understand what was going
12 on and all that sort of stuff. Competence to proceed is a
13 very low bar.
16:34:58 14 So, you tell me that you have taken -- that you
15 take medication for your mental health. I take it that
16 you -- that you are already under some sort of mental
17 health care. I don't want to duplicate that.
16:35:10 18 MR. FULLER: I'm fine. I mean, as I say, I went
19 to MIT, Oxford, and Cambridge. I have done great.
20 Attention Deficit Disorder, yeah, there is a bit of what we
21 call emotional dysregulation. It means my temper can become
22 very flary, especially in matters of religion --
16:35:30 24 MR. FULLER: -- because they're very dear to me,
25 but that's it.

518
SENTENCING HEARING
16:35:33 1 THE COURT: Is there anything else you want to say
2 about your sentence?
16:35:36 3 MR. FULLER: Ummm. I --
16:35:38 4 THE COURT: You don't have to, but I'm just
5 asking.
16:35:39 6 MR. FULLER: I will leave it to the judge's
7 discretion.
16:35:41 8 And I did want to point out one thing, I do
9 apologize for threatening you earlier that -- that I
10 remember the law. The law only applied about the
11 administrative decision for the ADA only as you -- as you
12 correctly applied it to my being in this role. It does not
13 apply to your judicial role. I just want to make --
14 because I was thinking about that. You were correct in
15 that.
16:36:03 16 THE COURT: Okay. I'm -- I accept your apology.
17 I don't think you owed me one, but I appreciate it.
16:36:11 19 THE COURT: All right. Madam Clerk, this is a
20 Class 2 misdemeanor. Mr. Fuller, by stipulation of the
21 State, is a Level I for sentencing purposes, having zero
22 prior record level points. I will sentence him to a term of
23 30 days in the Orange County Jail. That sentence is
24 suspended. He's placed on supervised probation for 18
25 months under all regular conditions of supervised probation.

519
SENTENCING HEARING
16:36:38 1 Special conditions: That he pay the costs; that
2 he pay a $1,000 fine; and that he have no contact with any
3 employee, faculty member, or student of the University of
4 North Carolina School of Social Work or the University of
5 North Carolina's LGBTQ Center. I ordered him to obtain a
6 mental health assessment from a licensed mental health
7 professional and comply with any treatment recommendations
8 that it makes. I order him to sign any releases so that
9 his probation officer can monitor his assessment and
10 treatment. That's it.
16:37:28 11 You enter notice of appeal?
16:37:30 12 MR. FULLER: Can I also request that -- the Court
13 to unseal the existing Grotsky report? It's one of things
14 that I have been so irked in this procedural stuff is that I
15 think, if the jury was able to see that, they would have
16 come to a different conclusion.
16:37:46 18 MR. FULLER: I would like for it to be unsealed
19 because it has a lot of information that I will need for the
20 appeal. And I don't understand --
16:37:53 21 THE COURT: Do you -- you don't have a copy of it?
16:37:54 22 MR. FULLER: I do have a copy of it. It was
23 sealed for my protection; but then when I wanted to allow
24 this information out, the State then said, "Well, no, you
25 can't."

520
DISCUSS PRETRIAL RELEASE CONDITIONS/COURLANG, FULLER
16:38:04 1 THE COURT: Okay. It's -- it's under seal so that
2 it's shielded from public view. It's in -- it's part of the
3 record. It's in the court file. And if the Court of
4 Appeals decides to unseal it, they can do that. I'm not
5 going to do that. But it's preserved for appellate review.
6 Okay?
16:38:24 8 THE COURT: Now, do you enter notice of appeal?
16:38:27 9 MR. FULLER: I -- I do.
16:38:28 10 THE COURT: Okay. No further notice required, the
11 defendant having entered notice of appeal in open court.
16:38:33 12 Under our law, the defendant entering notice of
13 appeal stays the imposition of the fine. It stays the
14 conditions of probation. It stays the payment of the
15 costs, but he is still under pretrial release. I haven't
16 looked at the -- I know his pretrial release conditions
17 have been addressed at various times. Are they
18 satisfactory to the State at this time?
16:38:58 20 MR. COURLANG: We would ask Your Honor just to
21 memorialize them explicitly for Mr. Fuller.
16:39:03 22 THE COURT: What are they? Do you have the latest
23 iteration of them? Was it Judge Holt who did the last one?
16:39:11 24 MR. COURLANG: I believe so, Your Honor.
16:39:12 25 THE COURT: All right. Let me see what we got.

521
16:39:17 1 I have an Order Modifying Conditions of Pretrial
2 Release that was filed May the 10th of 2018 -- is that the
3 last one -- by Judge Smith?
16:39:27 5 THE COURT: All right. Let me review those.
16:39:29 6 Mr. Fuller, I'm basically doing this for your
7 benefit to make sure that you understand what they are and
8 so that I understand what they are.
16:39:36 10 THE COURT: Let me -- let me just say that --
11 let's see. Well, this is about your interaction with the
12 Clerk of Superior Court and how you are able to interact
13 with the DA's Office. It says that the only contact that
14 you are allowed to have with the University of North
15 Carolina at Chapel Hill shall be directly through UNC Legal
16 Services to the attention of David Lambeth.
16:40:04 17 MR. FULLER: You got to remember there is two
18 other lawsuits; and so, whatever conditions you have cannot
19 apply to the federal lawsuit.
16:40:10 20 THE COURT: I understand that. I understand that.
21 Well, that -- this is just sort of adding to some existing
22 conditions. What were the conditions that Judge Smith was
23 referring to? I take it there is a no contact order.
16:40:26 24 MR. COURLANG: Yes, Your Honor. On March 13th --
16:40:30 25 THE COURT: All right. Let me see.

522
16:40:32 1 MR. COURLANG: -- Judge Holt entered a --
16:40:34 2 THE COURT: Okay. I got it. That order says that
3 Mr. Fuller is to have no contact with any person associated
4 with UNC's School of Social Work and the UNC LGBTQ Center by
5 any means. Okay. That --
16:40:52 6 MR. FULLER: I want to point out, I have already
7 been found innocent on that charge. That's what burns me
8 up. The jury already -- in the previous case already found
9 me innocent, so why should there be any restrictions of me
10 contacting them if that's what the jury has found on the
11 district trial?
16:41:07 12 THE COURT: Your conditions of pretrial release
13 remain the same, which include a no contact order with
14 anybody in the UNC School of Social Work or the UNC LGBTQ
15 Center, other than as modified by Judge Smith, which allows
16 you to communicate with the University through their lawyer.
16:41:24 17 All right. That's it.
16:41:28 18 Ladies and gentlemen, you are discharged.
16:41:34 19 (The jury was discharged from further duties.)
16:41:34 20 THE COURT: Mr. Fuller, you are free to go.
16:41:37 21 MR. FULLER: All right. Cheers.
16:41:39 22 THE COURT: Will there be any additional business
23 for the State this session of court?
16:41:45 25 THE COURT: Mr. Sheriff, please put this session

523
1 of the Orange County Criminal Superior Court into
2 adjournment sine die.
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CERTIFICATE
********************************

)
)
Defendant. )
I, Kimmel G. McDiarmid, the officer before whom the
foregoing proceeding was taken, do hereby certify that said
hearing, pages 1 through 530 inclusive, is a true, correct, and
verbatim transcript of said proceedings.
I further certify that I am neither counsel for, related to,
nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this
proceeding was heard; and further, that I am not a relative or
employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties
thereto, and am not financially or otherwise interested in the
outcome of the action, this the 30th day of October of 2018.

564-Pages of Transcripts in Case 17-CRS-050340

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COA P18-623

15B JUDICIAL DISTRICT

North Carolina Court of Appeals

V NAPIER SANDFORD FULLER, No. 17-CRS-050340

The following order was entered:

By order of the Court this the 4th of October 2018.

based upon the symptoms of his before-mentioned impairments.

year, Mr. Fuller can wait a bit longer.

“statements of fact,” but opinions.

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA )

Transcript of proceedings in the General Court of

David E. Jester, CVR-M

Wednesday, July 11, 2018 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Argument by Mr. Fuller . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6, 14

DAVID E. JESTER, CVR-M

1 (The Court convened in the matter of the

2 State of North Carolina versus Napier

3 Sanderford Fuller, Orange County case 17

4 CRS 50340, at 10:00 AM on Wednesday, July

5 11, 2018. All parties were present.)

6 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentleman.

7 We are here this morning about 17 CRS 50340, State of

8 North Carolina versus Napier Sanderford Fuller. If you are

9 involved in that matter, if you would please come forward.

10 All right. Let me ask: is there anyone here on behalf

11 of either the Clerk of Superior Court or the District

13 MR. STANFORD: Good morning, Your Honor. My name

14 is James Stanford. I am in fact the Elected Clerk of

15 Superior Court here in Orange County.

16 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.

17 MR. COURLANG: Good morning, Your Honor. I’m

18 Blake Courlang, and I am the Assistant District Attorney

19 prosecuting the criminal matter.

20 THE COURT: All right, sir. Well, if you would

22 MR. COURLANG: Thank you, Your Honor.

23 THE COURT: Yes, sir.

24 And Mr. Fuller, I assume you are here pro se this

DAVID E. JESTER, CVR-M

1 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor.

2 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you.

3 All right. Let me say, as a housekeeping detail,

5 MR. FULLER: That’s the same document that should

6 have been subpoenaed.

7 THE COURT: All right. The Court has received and

8 reviewed the document entitled “Defendant’s request for a

9 temporary restraining order, an immediate hearing, and a

10 preliminary injunction.” And I see that a file-stamped copy

11 dated today— showing that it was filed today at

12 approximately— is that 9:40?

13 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Okay.

15 And then there is also an additional document entitled,

16 “Defendant’s request for a discovery pursuant to

17 Constitutional guarantees,” that is apparently dated July 11

18 and was filed on July 11 at approximately 9:41 AM. Is that

20 MR. FULLER: Yes, Your Honor. That’s correct.

21 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well, the Court is

22 prepared to hear the Defendant’s request for a temporary

23 restraining order, an immediate hearing, and a preliminary

24 injunction. And let me just ask: has the District

25 Attorney’s Office been served with both of those documents?

DAVID E. JESTER, CVR-M

1 MR. COURLANG: I was just served with this as I