Danny Torbica shared a post.

August 10 at 12:33 AM

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Sean Reed to Huang Sheng Shyan Taiji

August 6 at 6:32 PM

Applications from Open and Close with Joe Harte (JOetaiji) and Kevin Durham at Joe's seminar in
Durham (UK) last weekend

Danny Torbica Can someone please explain this to me. I see this sort of thing a lot and also it’s touted as
super skilful refinements and only possible after many years of training being mentioned for good
measure.

Maybe it’s a “soft push” being practiced but all I can see is someone stepping in and somewhat “under”
their partner who just stays there. Then the two frames combine with momentum moving in from the
guy with the advantage and the other guy never stepping in or backwards.

As an exercise in loading the fascia and timing I can see it’s purpose but how does it relate to 6H and
Dan tien movement with any similarities or differences of emphasis and skill please?

Grant Beachley The guy stepping in is crowding the other to bump him away but I can't see anything in
what they are doing that qualifies as 6H in my very limited opinion.

Brian Watson So. Much. Leaning. I mean, it looks like they're having a good time, which matters, too,
but I'm not seeing anything very "high end" going on here.

Mike Sigman I just watched the shorter guy leaning far back constantly and I quit watching. It's easy
to "get under" someone and push up into them.

Grant Beachley In keeping with the recent theme of words failing, I think JOe is here. Yet they don't
quite seem to fit.

From JOetaiji: True Taiji builds soft Elastic power using stretch and pressure managed by (Yi) deep mind
intention.

Jason Malik He got under his center of gravity, rooted his structure (sunk his Qi), and uprooted the big
guy. Leverage. Very simple to do, especially against taller partners. For those that followed the
discussion on my post, this is pretty much mechanically the exact opposite of my demo lol.

Ernst Krudl Met Mike and Patrick Kelly Huang style in spring 1995, and kept in touch since, so I feel safe
commenting. 😉

Respect for Joe who takes on cooperative Kevin, who is nevertheless, much taller, much heavier and has
much longer arms.

Leaning back is OK, if the ming men stays out and the leaning back comes from hip turning plus the hip
joints do not go against the partner but rather down so the body connection is not broken in the middle.
Also a good test to see if the kuas are free to move and do not lock on outer force.

Going back ming men is filled and the back knee hardly moves, so the back bows are filled. Going
forward, the arms bend while a store is set up.

The same time "yang channels" should have reached the fingertips.

A challenge here is to keep the body down, once not to loose force by lifting once own body, second to
keep the pressure, and also not to loose connection by too much expansion.

The to be pushed partner should land on a soft strong spring, not feeling a force, but only his own take
off. (Not many can do that of course 😁)

The direction of the push is not up, but adding force to the rooted foot, which causes the mind to cause
a contraction, which makes the partner go up.

On first sight this has maybe little to do with 6h. But I remember last year when Mike gave a seminar in
Graz, most people did not have the ability to follow the instructions, not being able to sense different
parts of the body the same time, intending movements in different directions, plus of course sensing the
partner well.

This abilities are well trained in what Joe and Kevin are doing, and there are more demanding versions
of the exercise.

Andy GE Au contraire, I have met quite a few Huang style students at Mike's seminar who thought it all
is the same and did not see that they could not do what Mike wanted to convey.

Ernst Krudl Where was that, and what Huang line? And btw when I met Mike the 1st time I did not
understand anything, could not do anything, that's how I got interested.

Danny Torbica vielen Dank Ernst. Es ist gut, dass Sie ausführlich antworten.

I appreciate it. That’s why I call it a soft push as I’ve experienced different types in different set ups.
Maybe a different Yi or Jing Yi/Jung blend behind each one as well.

Grant Beachley I don't know. I think we all risk mapping normal physiology onto taiji and then back again
to say it conforms with 6H. With all dues respect Ernst I believe at least that that is the conversation you
and Danny are having.

Hide 11 Replies
Danny Torbica I was just asking people’s opinions on it. When I see people doing this (by that I mean
many different teacher’s showing it ) I always feel it’s a cheat or swindle Grant - mainly because the
other guy stays fixed and the other guy steps in to push with that advantage. No one ever says hey you
stepped in and I’m not allowed to or they don’t seek that advantage as it’s not permissible. If you can
add something to it apart from words fail me it’s fine, but if you think it’s really bad and don’t want to
comment more that’s fine too. As this is about how to do these things I’m happy to learn your opinion
Grant on how you do it and how you learnt buddy.

If it’s an exercise in stepping in and closing the gap aka Hsing but with less expressive dynamics then I’m
happy to hear that too. But then they should show the pupil doing it and being corrected. Just my 2
cents.

Grant Beachley Danny, I think it is up to you to say how it tallies with 6H and then open it up to critiscm
from there. That's the position where substantive comment can be made even if not by me. So what do
you think it shows in terms of 6H movement? Otherwise what is being answered is to a negative. I don't
see anything.

Danny Torbica Thanks. That’s what I was asking. All clear now. To me it shows “shunting” and nothing
more. I was hoping more expert eyes might see something else but they don’t. Just trying to get feed
back on my perceptions and not wanting to waste time on something I could do 30 years ago if there is
no internal strength to it. Thanks people for replying.

The last paragraph of my original post above clearly gives you my thoughts on it and why I posted it
Grant. I have nothing to add just thanks for people’s opinions who have experienced this type of training
and have actual experience of this compared to other more powerful internal strength and can
distinguish by actual experiences. I appreciate people who speak from an informed experienced
perspective.

Thanks again Ernst Krudl

Grant Beachley You posed two questions. The first's only 6H related premise was that 'it' loads the fascia
and you could see its purpose. Timing is neither here nor there. Okay, it doesn't load the fascia anymore
than anything else. The answer to the second is that it doesn't relate. Only MHO.

Danny Torbica Timing is vital in all things. That’s why we do partner work or we might just as well
express push / pull 6H against a wall or wooden dummy. Don’t know why you choose to pick up on this
and then dismiss it. But thanks for bringing it up. Timing is the execution of a technique or power
appropriately. All the exercises are there to make sure the strength arrives at the right time (eg to be
very simplistic foot, waist to hand is a timed method or protocol if you need classical reference and not
my words).

Dummies (static or just slow moving) do have their uses I know someone will say 😉 but I feel anything
worth while ( or not!) has been said on this and don’t want to take up anyone’s valuable time on this.

Grant Beachley I agree when you say you're generalising so the timing you refer to is not particular to 6H
body usage such as the coordination of a reverse breath with open and close. As for the classical
reference you just mention see what you think of this explanation.

https://m.facebook.com/story/graphql_permalink/...

Danny Torbica Mike’s stuff is great and what you point to is very clear writing.
I like what Mike says and have been into his stuff for over 20 years mate which is THE only reason why I
am here.

I would respectfully like to refer you to the first words Mike says here:

“This is NOT a personalities forum”

Grant Beachley Tin has provided a really good response that easily stands apart from the post. If you
choose to take my responses personally, that's solely up to you. . I will agree or disagree with and
question someone irrespective. I was at odds with Ernst's and your positions. You have names. They are
not buddy and mate. Yet by the use of those terms it was only you who characterised the discussion.
Enough said.

Danny Torbica What position did I take? I was asking. You seem to disagree with the very asking and by
that show attention seeking continually as an arm chair key board warrior. Don’t reply please as I know
you like to argue, try to be clever and get the last words.
Call me or PM me if you really want to discuss this or resolve it somehow. Always happy to know the cut
of a man’s jib.

Ernst was directly talking from experience as was Tin and it showed in their replies. However, you have
had enough of my attention and fail to listen to anything I wrote or understand why. More than enough
said.

“Buddy and mate” are terms of friendship and endearment by the way in Western English speaking
culture from both sides of the Atlantic and to the antipodes in Australia - much like “Bre” is in Serbia so I
do not understand your need to make a problem out of it. Calling you sir and genuflecting in your
general direction maybe more to your liking but it ain’t gonna happen dude! ( yes I said dude 😂)

Your comment about Tin providing a really “good response that easily stands out from the post“ is
hilarious. I like what he says. He’s a gentleman and understands the art of communication with clarity
and no pomposity. Your attempt again here however at belittling provocation only shows why you are
interested in martial arts. Too late to make up for former inadequacy by taking it to the ether via the
keyboard though 😂

Ernst Krudl Danny, revisted the video, in the far background there are Dave and his wife practising, good
to "see" them again. Grant in Austrian dialect is used for someone in a bad mood. Not for 6h, but for
provoking many contributions here, I am thankful to Grant, improves my English. 😁

Grant Beachley Context. Where terms occur in the order of words. I'm sure Ernst the same principles
occur in Austrian. 😉 Thanks for the compliment Ernst. Still working on it. 😄
Tin Tran Hi Danny- I think it may be useful in the sense that the push down is coming at pretty much
at the same angle every time, so the receiver can start thinking about angles of force, balance gates and
holes, etc. I learned something similar from my firstseminar with Mike so long ago, and could almost
immediately replicate it about a week or two later, albeit with a lot of muscular usage. IMO, the general
idea of what is shown is a basic intro in any Sigmanar, and a reasonably intelligent attendee should be
able to replicate quickly.

Leverage, timing, structure, etc. - Mike is like twice my height, but he was immediately "under" me, or
floating me, at first touch :) It was a very disconcerting feeling that made me realize jin is not something
easily correlated to normal muscular movement, although not everyone can see this. Not addressing
you particularly, but that's my general observation of the video posted.

Danny Torbica cảm ơn rất nhiều

Tin Tran

Very clear and honestly very useful reply. I appreciate it 🤝

Tin Tran In my mind, I think the progression for jin training and understanding can go something like
this:

1. Video in original post. It's very mechanical, but it gives a good insight into learning to read and reply
to incoming forces, taking advantage of balance holes and gates.

Tin Tran 2. Jang's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYQ7Fv-3aJ0...…See More

YOUTUBE.COM

JIN

JIN

Tin Tran 3. Learning to aim your qi-thingies/molecules pre-contact:

Tin Tran In other words, moving more towards mental control of the jin path :)

Bill Cullen It is a combination of things. The smaller guy is stepping under the taller guy's center of mass
AND the taller guy is actually leaning backwards slightly. You can see that his shoulders have moved
back beyond any support from his dan tien.
Danny Torbica Exactly Bill. Thanks for replying sir.

Tin Tran Ignoring the general mechanical observations, how would you push off the larger guy, in
term of jin usage?

Danny Torbica Feel his force lines, structure, centre of balance and centre of mass. Look to unbalance
him into a “hole” and direct him there. If he has power Jin and it’s a clear vector then into that. Perhaps
lead him “up “ to float his foot or displace his centre and then push / intend / direct / project.
Or in the rythmn pull him slowly further into me with idea to unbalance. If his power doesn’t match
what I can generate then just power / project into it with the advantage if he’s playing a simple 2H push-
pulling game.
Generally and more childishly natural to me though, spiral with him or spiral “ into his structure “ as
most people can’t handle that. If it’s a chi thing play with intents in his body: spine, root, axis COM, COG.
That’s if it’s purely fixed position. If it’s in the moment feel what’s happening and respond accordingly. If
he’s not aggressive then I’m not: by that I mean not trying to unbalance me, so im not going to over
extend myself thus losing balance or giving him my centre. (In chess they have a saying however about if
you have the advantage in the moment then it befalls to you to use it or you’ve lost that moment.) This
would apply here also.
The feeling of his intent would be primal too - is he invested in gain ego etc to the expense of his
balance and also be careful of his lurking hidden power ready to pounce so I’d maintain a good defence
with 6H throughout.

That’s a general idea. Depends also if I’m allowing him to push me by playing weaker to see what he has
and also encourage him to develop.

Of course all from Dan tien before anyone pounces on me for not mentioning it in the post or 6H 😉

Mike Sigman Guys, that back and forth and push stuff is fine, but it's not really Taijiquan and
therefore it's not really 6H. As a simple jin discussion, fine, but we've worked that part to death. I'm
closing the thread.