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7 j oi nt wi th the
8 COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND REFORT']
9 and the
l0 CO1TlITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS,
t2 WASHINGTON, D.C.
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9 I'4ARGARET E. DAUM,
l0 PARTN E R ,
t2 2550 M STREET, NW
l3 WASHINGTON, DC 20037
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2 order.
J I just want to make a few brief remarks before we get
4 started.
5 This is the first witness interview as part of the
6 ry. It i s bei ng conducted by the House
impeachment i nqui
7 Intelligence Committee w1th the participation of the
8 Oversi ght and Forei gn Af f a'i rs Commi ttees.
9 This will be a staff-led interview. We have tried to
l0 keep the room to a reasonable size. We expect the questions
ll to be professional, that you'11 be treated civil1y. We very
I MR. V0LKER: My name 'is Kurt Volker, and that i s K-u- r-t
2 V-o-1-k-e- r.
a
J MR. G0LDMAN: Thank you.
4 Along with the other proceedings in furtherance of the
5 i nqui ry, thi s i ntervi ew i s bei ng 1ed by the Inte11 i gence
6 Comm'ittee i n exerci se of i ts oversi ght and legi slati ve
7 j uri sdi cti on and i n coordi nat'ion wi th the Comm'ittees on
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22 to give js the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
23 you God?
I The record will reflect that the witness has been duly
2 sworn.
J Now, Mr. Volker, with that, we turn it over to you for
4 any opening statement that you would like to make.
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l7 towards Ukra'ine:
t8 WouId the administrat'ion lift sanctions against Russia?
t9 Would i t make some k'ind of grand bargai n wi th Russi a i n
20 which it would trade recogn'i tion of Russia's seizure of
2t Ukrainian territory for some other deal in Syria or
22 elsewhere?
23 Would the admjnistration recognize Russia's c1a'imed
24 annexation of Crimea?
25 Wi 11 thj s j ust become another frozen confl i ct?
16
I topic of di scussion.
2 Moreover, as I was aware of public accusations about the
J Vice President, Vice President Biden, several times I
4 cautioned the Ukrainians to distinguish between highlighting
5 thei r own efforts to fight corruption domestically, including
6 jnvestigating Ukrainian indjviduals, something we support as
7 a matter of U.S. poljcy, and doing anything that could be
4 BY MR. NOBLE:
6 A No.
7 a Can you descri be your conversati on wi th Secretary
8 Pompeo i th your resi gnati on?
n connecti on wi
25 A No, we didn't.
23
l6 A No.
t7 a with Secretary Pompeo?
l8 A No.
l9 a Okay. Did you discuss your resignation with Rudy
20 G'iuliani?
2t A No.
2 A No.
J a of any
Are you aware
4 A May I -- may I -- I did not discuss the contents of
5 the testimony that I just read. I did discuss the fact that
6 I 'm goi ng to test i fy.
7 a Wi th whom d'id you di scuss that?
8 A Wi th Mari k Stri ng, the 1ega1 advi ser.
9 a Okay. Are you aware of any efforts by Secretary
l0 Pompeo or others at the State Department to try to stop
I tod ay ?
2 A Did we?
t2 well?
t3 ASo this is a letter dated 0ctober 2nd, 2019. It is
t4 addressed to my attorney, Ms. Margaret Daum at Squi re Patton
l5 Boggs. I t .IS
from Marik String, the acting legal advi ser at
l6 the State Department.
l7 a And have you read that tetter?
l8 A I have not read it with any care, no.
l9 lVolker Exhibit No. 1
20 Was marked for identi fication. l
2t BY MR. NOBLE:
t4 ABy
l5 a I'm sorry. Buri sma Holdi ngs.
l6 A Bu r i sma, yeah .
8 l'4anafort?
9 A No.
t4 A No.
l3 Holdi ngs?
t4 A in Burisma.
No, never aware that he had an interest
l5 a What about openings up investigations into the
l6 origins of the 20 or into election 'interference in the
t7 20L5 electi on?
l8 A I that he was concerned about the possibility
knew
t9 of there having been electjon interference. I do not reca11
20 him asking for investigations in that. I did hear that
2t separately f rom Mr . Gi ul i ani .
J wrong?
4 a Yes.
5 A I'm sorry.
6 During the course of thi s conversat'ion he di d ref erence
7 Mayor Gi uf i ani , because he said that what we were saying as a
9 don't know exactly when. And they made their way into U.S.
l0 media, reported both jn print and then a iournalj st's wri ting
ll who was then i ntervi ewed on televi si on, so 'i t was ma j or news.
t2 a And can I stop you there, Ambassador Volker?
l3 A Yes.
t4 a Which news publicat'ion, written news publication in
l5 parti cular?
l6 A I believe it was The Hi1l.
t7 a And do you know the author of these articles?
l8 A I do.
t9 a Who?
20 A J ohn Solomon.
2l a 0kay. Conti nue, please.
22 A 0kay. These allegations were twofold. One of them
J And
8 learned that from med'ia reports, and therefore that was also
9 a target of how to get'information into the U.S. system.
l0 a Is it your opinion that President Trump believed
ll these al tegati ons?
I Shokin fi red, but the motivations for that are enti rely
2 di f f erent f rom those conta'ined i n that allegati on.
J a That were pushed by Prosecutor General Lutsenko
4 A Correct.
5 a and adopted by John Solomon in The Hill and then
6 repeated on televi sed news?
7 A
Correct. When Vice President Biden made those
8 representations to President Poroshenko he was representing
9 U.5. policy at the time. And it was a general assumption
l0 I was not doing U.5. policy at the time but a general
ll assumption among the European Union, France, Germany,
t2 American diplomats,U.K., that Shokjn was not doing his job
l3 as a prosecutor general. He was not pursuing corruption
l4 ca5es.
l5 a it wasn't just former Vjce President Biden who
So
l6 was pushing for his removal, it was those other parties you
l7 j ust ment'ioned?
1 urging?
2 A It was a White House vis'it, so, yes, it would have
3 been an 0va1 0ffice meeting.
4 a And why was the Oval Office meeting important to
5 Ukrai ne?
6 A It to show support for the new
was important
7 Ukrainian President. He was taking on an effort to reform
8 Ukraine, fight corruption, a big sea change in everything
9 that had happened in Ukraine before, and demonstrating strong
l0 U. S. support for h'im would have been very important.
I allegation?
2 A No, I don't.
J aDo you know whether he has opened an investigation
4 or reopened an i nvesti gati on i nto Buri sma Holdi ngs
5 A No, I don't.
6 a the second allegation that you described?
7 A No,I don't.
8 a Okay. So I'd like to turn to some of your text
9 messages that were Produced.
l0 So before we move to the text messages, I want to ask
ll you a clarifying question. that you were not aware
You sajd
t2 of any 1inkage between the delay jn the Oval Office meet'ing
l3 between President Trump and President Zelensky and the
t4 Ukrainian commitment to investigate the two allegations aS
l6 A Correct.
t7 a Do you know whether there was any linkage that Rudy
I a Yes.
ll agreed in the meeting that we had with him, say, okay, I'11
t2 invite him, he djdn't really want to do'it. And that's why
l3 the meet i ng kept be'ing del ayed and del ayed .
23 A Yes.
25 A Yes.
42
a Okay.
I A Ri ght.
2 a for the statement that President Zelensky was
J going to release
4 A Yes.
t4 been.
1 di scuss.
2 So I have a copyfor you. I don' t know i f you
J A That's helpful if you do. Thank you.
4 a Okay. 5o for the record, I'm handing the witness
5 what the wi tness produced yesterday as KVl through KV55. And
ll BY MR NOBLE:
l9 a Okay. Great.
20 Up at the top, this i s a group message chat between
22 A Yes.
8 A Yep.
t2 A Yes.
agai n who Bill Taylor is and where he was and what his role
2 WAS?
6 offi cer?
7 A He was a career civil servant, and he served as
8 Ambassador to Ukraine, I believe, in the late 2000s. And
9 when Ambassador Yovanovitch departed, the DCM at the Embassy
l0 also was at the end of her tour.
ll And it was my judgment, and I recommended thjs to
t2 Secretary Pompeo, that we needed a more seasoned diplomat in
l3 place to be the U.S. Charge. And so I recommended Bi11. And
t4 Bill had been the vice president of USIP, and he took a leave
l5 of absence from that to take on the role of Charge.
l6 a Okay. And just generally, did you have
t7 conversations throughout, I guess, 2019 with Bill Taylor and
l8 Gordon Sondland regarding the issues that we've been
t9 discussing here today? Is that fair to say?
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I [ L0:40 a.m.]
2 Mr. Volker. Yes. 0n a routine basis, we were very
J closely in touch.
4 BY MR. NOBLE:
7 A Yes, I do.
8 a And can you read that for the record, what Bill
9 Taylor wri tes?
l0 A So Bi 11 Taylor wri tes.
ll a Gordon.
l5 Zelensky.
t6 a And throughout this, there's a ZE.
sometimes
t7 Throughout these messages, ZE or Z, that refers generally to
l8 President Zelensky of Ukraine?
l9 A Correct. So can I ask you to see if you can break
20 through on two key issues, a date from the White House for
2t the Zelensky visit and a senior lead for a delegation to Kyiv
22 for their Independence Day parade and celebration on August
23 24ln? for the visit is urgent. The NSC has not
The date
24 been able to get a date. Many are travel in parentheses,
25 many are traveling, of course. Two years ago, Secretary
52
l0 And then can you read what Bill Taylor wrote? And just
ll read the next few 1ines, and I'11 tel1 you when to stop.
t2 A Okay. Gordon Sondland: Whoo, glad you stayed on.
t3 Bi 1t Taylor: l'le too. I mi ght see him Sunday wi th
1 were?
l7 a What 'is
this call?
l8 A Yes. 5o what i understand this to be it took me
t9 a whi Ie to reconstruct thjs in my own mind. I betieve that
20 Gordon and 8111 had a phone call with President Zelensky, and
2t they were I don't know what the purpose was, but they were
22 tryi ng to somehow steer President Zelensky on the where we
23 a re w'i th the request for a meeting because we had the letter,
24 you know
I A earlier. That is
For the reason that we discussed
2 a tremendous symbol of support to have their president
J visiting with our President in the Whjte House.
4 a 0kay. Going back to these text messages, the call
5 that you were discussing, which I befieve you said you were
6 not on the calt?
7 A I was not.
8 a Do you know what was discussed during that call?
9 A I believe it trying to explain to President
was
l0 Zelensky personally: We are worki ng thi s. We're commi tted
ll to having you there. We are trying to get a date.
t2 That's what I bel i eve 'it was, but I don't know the
r3 specific contents.
t4 a 0kay. Jumping down to the line that's 7/3/L9 at
t5 1:50 p.m.
I Secretary Pompeo?
2 A I believe they have a very close relationship and
J work well together.
4 a Okay. And what was Ulrich's role with respect to
5 U. S. -Ukrai ni an relati ons duri ng 20L9?
6 A real role i n U. S. -Ukrai ni an relati ons
He played no
7 at all. He was a way of communicating So that informatjon
5 A That is correct.
6 a at the Whi te House?
7 A That i s cor rect.
8 a And Oleksandr Dany I can't pronounce jt, but
private cj ti zen.
l5 come back?
l6 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes, take a 5-minute break.
t7 lRecess.l
l8 MR. CAST0R: Back on the record. It's L1:13. Everybody
20 BY I"IR. CASTOR:
2 for comi ng i n.
J And we want to signal at the start that we have great
4 respect for you. We have great respect for the career
5 Forei gn Servi ce officers, and to the extent any Forei gn
6 Servi ce offi cer i s thrust i nto the pol i ti cal rea1m, we
7 appreciate that that is just an unfortunate c'i rcumstance.
8 Nevertheless, you' re here. You' re here to answer all
9 the questions. It's very encouraging. So, you know, I'm a
l0 congress'iona1 staf f er. I 'm not a career Forei gn Servi ce
ll person. So, 'if I get any of the names, i f I mi spronounce i t,
t2 anythi ng of that sort, 'if I'm not as savvy as you, please
t3 forgive me. It in no way is a lack of respect for the job
t4 that you and your colleagues do. And, with that in mind, I
t5 mean, yoLr mentioned jn your opening statement that at all
l6 times you conducted yourself wjth the highest level of
t7 personal and professional integrity. Is that fai r?
t8 A Yes.
l3 a of whether the
And, you know, there was an issue
t4 former prosecutor general before Lutsenko so I guess two
t5 prosecutor generals ago?
stay on.
I to fix'i t.
2 a So anybody on the Ukrainian side of things ever
J express like grave concern that th'is would not get worked
4 out?
5 A Not that it wouldn't get worked out, no, they did
6 not. They expressed concern that, since this has now come
7 out publicly in this Politico article, it looks like that
8 they're be'ing, you know, singled out and penal jzed for some
9 reason. That's the image that that would create in Ukraine.
l0 a And you assured them that
ll A I told them that is absolutely not the case.
t2 a You were the you were working for free
l3 A Yes.
t4 a right? And it seems from going through your
l5 text messages, the Unjted States Government, that taxpayers
t6 were getting a good va1ue.
t7 A It's kjnd of you to say.
l8 a You were working hard?
l9 A I was.
2 means that we've been Successfully bui 1di ng thi s i nsti tute.
) And I did not feel that I could leave those responsibilities,
4 to leave the McCain family or Arizona State University in
5 order to take on a fu11-time posi tion.
6 But, because I cared about the issues and I knew that we
7 had a gap, that we were not 'in the game on Ukrai ne i n early
8 2OL7 the way we should be, I wanted to help. And so I asked
l8 A Correct, correct.
t9 a And now you have, as a result largety of this
20 fi restorm, you've been you had to resi gn. Is that
2t cor rect?
22 A No, that i s not correct. I am st'i11 executi ve
23 di rector
24 a No, from being a Special Envoy?
2 doi ng i t.
J policy. It took a
That eventually became administrat'ion
4 whi1e, but Secretary Tillerson, you know, he wanted to think
5 it through, see how that would play out. How would the
6 a11ies react to this? How would Russia react to this? How
7 would the Ukrainians handle jt? And we managed those issues.
8 Secretary Mattis was very much in favor. And they met I
9 did not meet with the President about this -- but they met
l0 with the President and the President approved it.
ll a And how soon into 20L7 did that assistance start
t2 flowi ng?
I Ukraine and the corruption there, do you think you made any
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I [LL:45 a.m.]
2 BY MR. CASTOR:
a
J a So to the extent when that has been reported, given
4 your knowledge of the area, your impression of that
5 allegation js it's not
6 A Yeah. l{y impression of that allegation is that
7 i t's made up.
I Poroshenko.
2 I don't I had with him, but
remember how many meetings
J possibly, you know, 10, L2, something like that.
4 Ambassador Yovanovitch, we interacted quite regularly,
5 just as you see with Bill Taylor here. When she was
6 ambassador, we interacted quite a 1ot. And when i visited
7 Ukraine, for the most part, we were in all our meetings
8 together. There were a few when she was not there.
9 a Did you ever speak with any, you know, U.S.
l0 offi ci a1 i n the Embassy about the ori gi ns of th'i s allegati on?
ll A The allegation of there being a list?
t2 a Yes.
t2 A I have no idea.
l3 O Have you seen it reported in the press?
l4 A I haven't, actually.
No,
l5 a If it was denjed, would there be another mechanism
16 for Lutsenko to get a second crack at it?
t7 A If someone applies for a v'isa and the visa is
l8 denied, then you can apply f or a waiver of the den'ial,
t9 depending on what the denial is.
20 AndI used to do this when I was a visa officer in
2t London. I was I was the I don't know what you would
22 call it the waiver officer. And they submit an
23 explanation, a petition, to have a waiver of the den'ia1.
24 You sendthat back to Washington with a recommendation.
25 The interagency community in Washington vets it, gives you an
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1 you.
I call
2 a Okay.
t6 A Yes
2t A Yeah.
himself.
2 a 5o you got two readouts?
J A Yeah.
t7 that?
l8 We sawin text messages that we discussed earlier, on
t9 July L0th, Giu1iani apparently had been in touch with
20 Lutsenko. And in my view, that's the wrong person to be
2t talki ng to i n Ukrai ne.
22 And so I could see we have a problem of this negative
23 feed , comi ng poss i bIy f rom Lutsenko th rough Rudy Gi uI i an i
,
I Bi den?
4 I
MR. VOLKER: yes .
l0 (ph) ?
z) Ukrai ne?
24 MR. V0LKER: I believe there 'is, yes.
25 MR. ZELDIN: Are you able to tatk through whether or not
108
l0 record. And in the top paragraph, if you could read the line
ll beginning with, "The other thing," the rest of the paragraph
t2 begi nni ng wi th, "The other thi ng. "
l3 MR. V0LKER: Would you like me to read it?
t4 THE CHAIRMAN: Yes , please.
t2 I'm sorry.
13 I t ref ers to Bi den, 'i t says: There' s a 1ot of tatk
t4 about Biden's son and then it says that Biden stopped
l5 the prosecuti on.
l6 And I 'interpreted that immedi ately as the fi rst one
t7 being the son and the second one being Joe Biden, but you
22 THE CHAIRI4AN: Now, si nce the Presi dent never menti ons
./.) Burisma, it's f air to say that in Giulian'i 's mind and you
24 d'idn't know this at the time, I think you're testifying in
25 Giuliani's mind, Burisma is Synonymous with the President's
115
25 not?
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J Ambassador - -
4 MR. V0LKER: I understood that he commun'icates with the
5 Presi dent.
6 THE CHAIRMAN: You understood that the Ukrainians
7 recognized that Rudy Giuliani represented the President, that
8 he was the agent of the President, that he was a djrect
9 channel to the President. Ukrai ni an offi ci als you were
l0 dealing with would have understood that, would they not?
ll MR. VOLKER: I that they thought of him as
would not say
t2 an agent, but that he was a way of communicating, that you
13 could get something to Giuliani and he would be someone who
t4 would be talking to the President anyway, so it would flow
l5 i nformatj on that way.
2 MR. V0LKER: And I'm saying that I can see how that
J would be the case.
4 What I trying to do was understand, you know, what
was
5 is the request to investigate Burisma. Is it reasonable for
6 the Ukrainians to do that or not, to say that they would do
7 so. I didn't know the context of all of this at the time.
8 And in talking with the Ukrainians and conveying that
9 that was what Rudy G'iut i ani had sai d , 'i t shoutd menti on
l0 Burisma and 2015, they expressed discomfort with that, and I
ll agreed with that and said I don't think you should do it.
t2 THE CHAIRNAN: And why would why did they and how did
t7 them was that the prosecutor general i n place at the t'ime was
l8 not, quote, unquote, thei r prosecutor general , 'i t was the
t9 carryover from the previous government, Lutsenko. So they
20 didn't trust him and they didn't want to put anything out
2t that would ei ther get him engaged,
suggesti ng i nvesti gati ons
22 or that he would then try to obstruct or thwart somehow.
23 That was one reason.
24 Another is they didn't want to mention a specific
25 company, period. Just as a matter of prudence, yoLt don't
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9 them?
l9 to your attentjon?
20 MR. V0LKER: July 18th.
2t THE CHAIRMAN: So it came to your attention before the
22 President's call wjth President Zelensky?
23 MR. VOLKER: Yes.
24 THE CHAIRMAN: And you tried to find out the reason for
25 the suspension. I think you sajd you
122
t2 right?
l3 MR. VOLKER: There should have been, but there wasn't.
l4 THE CHAIRMAN: You weren't able to find out. Senator
l5 McConnell said recently he wasn't able to find out. It was a
2 1 eve r age
l8 were aware
19 THE CHAIRMAN: But they
20 MR. VOLKER: that the assistance was bejng held up.
9 that aid was being withheld, that was after the President had
10 made a request --
ll MR. VOLKER: That is correct.
t2 THE CHAIRMAN: -- that they'investigate the Bidens?
l3 MR. V0LKER: That's correct.
t4 THE CHAIRI"IAN: So we have the chronology correct.
l5 MR. V0LKER: We have we have that.
l6 THE CHAIRMAN: The is made. And even though the
request
t7 suspension may have occurred earlier, the request is made to
5 can't venture
6 MR. VOLKER: But, Congressman, this is why I'm trying to
7 the say the context is different, because at the time they
8 learned that, if we assume it's August 29th, they had just
9 had a vi si t from the Nati onal Securi ty Advi sor, John Bolton.
l0 That' s a hi gh leve1 meeti ng al ready.
ll He was recommending and working on scheduling the visjt
t2 of Pres'ident Zelensky to Wash'ington. We were also working on
l3 a bilateral meeting to take place in Warsaw on the margins of
t4 a commemorat'ion on the begi nni ng of World War I I .
2t good by then.
22 THE CHAIRMAN: Ambassador,I find it remarkable as a
23 career diplomat that you have d'ifficulty acknowledging that
24 when Ukraine learned that their aid had been suspended for
25 unknown reasons, that thi s wouldn' t add add'i tj onal urgency to
128
r0 Sondland and Bill Taylor around this time about the quid pro
ll quo that the President had devised with President Zelensky
t2 that requi red forei gn assi stance from the U. S. and a Whi te
l3 House visit to be dependent on President Zelensky's
t4 commitment to making a public announcement of investigations
l5 into Burisma or Joe Biden or Hunter Biden or Paul Manafort
l6 and the origins of the interference in the 2016 election?
t7 What conversations did you have with your fel1ow diplomats?
l8 A Wett, you asked what conversations did I have about
t9 that quid pro quo, et cetera. None, because I didn't know
20 that there was a quid pro quo.
2t a What Ambassador, with all due respect, Bill
22 Taylor, your f ellow di plomat here, i s sayi ng that there 'is a
23 linkage between those two things.
24 A No, he' s aski ng.
25 a 0kay. And what di d you d'iscuss i n that regard?
130
6 well there's no cha nce, given the broad support for this
7 i n Washi ngton, thi s wi 11 not go through. So I and others
l6 A Yes.
23 A Yes.
24
25
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I I quit.
2 a Okay. Let's j ust Pause there.
J What did you understand Bj11 Taylor to be saying
4 A I didn't.
5 a what thi s ni ghtmare was?
6 A Yeah. I didn't. You will see the next text
7 message from me in response to that: I'm not in the 1oop.
t6 spoken.
A Yes, he did.
2 a And then he said he would threaten he would quit
J i f that happened?
4 A He said that.
5 a Did you talk to him about this and what his
6 concerns were?
7 A I --
8 a Bj11 Taylor.
9 A Yeah. I suspect I did. I don't have any clear
l0 indicator here, but it would be normal for me to talk to him.
ll a So what js your recollection of the conversation
t2 that you had with Bill Taylor regarding this nightmare?
l3 A We11, my wel1, about the nightmare, again, I
t4 said there's no linkage here. We are working to get the
l5 security assi stance 1 j fted. We had a letter from several
l6 members of the Senate to OMB pushing to get that lifted, and
l6 i s key.
t7 Let me read that again for meaning now that I understand
18 it.
l9 The message to the Ukrainians (and Russians) we send
20 wi th the deci sion on securi ty assi stance i s key. Wi th the
2t hold, we have already shaken their faith in us; thus, my
22 nightmare scenario.
23 a Please conti nue.
24 A Bilt Taylor continues Counting on you to be right
25 about thi s i ntervi ew, Gordon.
135
8 Zelensky, correct?
9 A That is correct.
l0 a Who's Li sa Kenna (Ph) and who 'is 5?
t7 a 8:36 a. m.
l8
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I [1:07 p.m.]
2 MR. VOLKER: Thank you. Kurt Volker, good 1unch.
J Thanks.
4 BY MR. NOBLE:
9 A We had
l8 time.
l9 a Okay. just please contjnue the message?
Can you
20 A Good lunch. Thanks. Heard from Whi te House.
2t Assuming President Zetensky convinces Trump, he will
22 investigate slash get to the bottom of what happened in 2015.
23 We wj11 najl down date for visit to Washington. Good luck.
4 thi s?
9 A No, I do not.
l0 a calledearlier, and yet, that's what
them
u President Trump wanted Zelensky to commit to investigating
t2 before he could get
l3 A Rl ght.
14 a a v'isi t to the Whi te House?
7 A That's correct.
8 a If you can jump down to August 7th, 2019. So this
9 is after the meeting between Giuliani and Yermak
l0 A Yes.
ll a in lladrid.
t2 0kay. I'm going to let my colleague, Dan Goldman, ask
l3 some quest'ions on this.
t4 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
4 A Yes.
t5 co r rec t?
l6 A Correct.
t7 a Right? So you're relaying a message from the
l8 Whi te House to President Zelensky as to what he should say on
t9 that phone call?
20 A Correct.
2l a dn't say, "0h, i f you can convi nce Presj dent
You di
22 Trump that you're going to root out corruption in Ukraine
I A Cor rect.
2 a No, you di rectly referenced the i nvesti gati ons.
J A Get to the bottom of what happened in 20L5.
4 a Right. So when you then say, as you are sitting
5 here today, that you had no idea that Presjdent Trump was
6 goi ng to di scuss i nvesti gations e'i ther related to Buri sma or
l0
ll
t2
l3
t4
l5
t6
t7
l8
19
20
2t
22
23
24
25
148
[L:55 p.m.]
2 MR. SWALWELL: Okay. I t' s L: 55 . Goi ng back on the
J record , and i t' s mi nor i ty, 45 mi nutes .
4 BY MR. CASTOR:
t4 not facts that, you know, you know from a firsthand account,
l5 but isn't it reasonable to believe that the President,
t6 President Trump, may have felt that Poroshenko or somebody
2 A The transcript.
J a Ri ght. Goi ng back to the same page t,,,e were on,
4 page f our.
5 A Yes
22 great.
You know, one reading of this could be it's a throwaway
24 statement.
25 A Uh-huh.
155
l3 A is correct.
That
t4 a You've got thi s 'intervi ew transcri pt here. Thi s i s
t7 A Yes.
l0 A Yes.
ll a Did I pronounce that right?
t2 A Correct.
l3 a What is your relationship with Chaliy?
t4 A Wel1, he was the Ukra'inian Ambassador here for some
l5 time. And 'in my duties as the special representative I would
16 meet with him, talk with him. We somet'imes spoke together at
t7 public events. He how do I want to say this? He was a
l8 good intertocutor. He knew what was going on jn Ukraine. He
l9 was able to convey that. I could get updates from him. I
20 could te11 him what I was doing.
2t But at the same t'ime, my pri nci pa1 engagement was
22 vi si ti ng Ukrai ne and meeti ng the Presi dent and stayi ng i n
23 touch with the Foreign Minjster and the diplomatic advjser to
24 the Presi dent.
25 a Are you famitiar with an indiv'idua1 named Alexandra
159
I Chal upa?
I A Yes.
2 a And that' s consi stent wi th forei gn assi stance, you
5 know, at all times, all countries, all eras?
4 A Yes. I don't need to go into examples, but I've
5 come across many in my experience for any number of reasons
I S tates?
2 A at all, quite the opposjte. The reason I
Not
J assisted the Ukrainians in contacting him was precisely to
4 advance the interests of the U.S. because I wanted the
5 information that the President would be getting to reflect a
6 better understanding of who this new President, who his new
7 team are.
8 a So any assert'ionor claim that i t was improper to
9 be bri ngi ng Rudy G'iul i ani 'into that process, you would rebut
l0 that, right?
ll A I would disagree with that. I believe it's part of
t2 my job to try to advance the relationship between the U.S.
l3 and Ukrai ne, to advance U. S . i nterests wi th Ukrai ne, forei gn
t4 po1 i cy, nati onal securi ty i nterests, to strengthen Ukraj ne as
l5 a democ racy.
l6 I -- as the special representative, there's a 1ot of
And
t7 public role with that, and so you meet with a 1ot of people,
l8 you communicate with a lot of people, you try to
l9 bridge-buitd, and probtem-sotve.
20 I didn't view -- let me put it this way: I didn't
And
2t think it improper to contact Mr. Giutiani much as I would,
22 you know, not think it improper to contact anybody. You
Z) know, I've had meetings with businessmen who have jnvested jn
24 Ukra'ine. I 've had meeti ngs wi th clergy. I 've had meeti ngs
25 with American citizens who have had problems in Ukraine and
164
longstandi ng.
2 MR. PERRY: Longstanding. So you would say that they
J I don't want to put words in your mouth. Would you say that
4 he had these skeptic'ism or some leve1 of skepticism before
5 his personal attorney Giuliani may have imparted some of his
6 opi ni ons?
23 MR. PERRY: 5o you had said that you get the readout
24 from the call that was basjcally congratutatjons, fighting
25 corruptions, and then in'itiation to a White House visit, so
169
I period.
2 MR. PERRY: Thank you .
I want to say thank you. And your testimony here today has
I engage i n that.
2 MR. ZELDIN: Okay. Senators l4enendez, Murphy, have they
J directly reached out to you with regards to demanding
4 assistance of the Ukrainian Government with 0regards to the
5 Mueller probe?
6 l'lR. V0LKER: No, they have not.
7 MR. ZELDIN: And just to clarify, up to this point of
8 today's transcrjbed interview, has anything been stated that
9 you would say class'if i ed?
l0 MR. V0LKER: No.
ll MR. ZELDIN: Everything is unclassified up to this
t2 poi nt?
22 things.
L) MR. SWALWELL: So I guess, as an American citizen, do
l8 I 've prepared Presi dents for meeti ngs and phone ca11s. I've
l9 prepared packages for thei r meeti ngs. I 've consul ted wi th
20 them before and after those phone cal1s and meetings. I've
2t traveled with Secretaries of State across the wor1d.
22 I have to say, the ev'identi ary record that has emerged,
23 in part those text messages that you have provided, as well
24 as the phone call record that the White House produced, is
25 abnormal, highly unusual, and raises profound concern, at
180
t2 i nterests.
l3 I'm going to turn it over to my colleagues now.
So
t4 We're going to go in more depth'into specific text messages
l5 exchanges that you have had as well as the broader timeline,
l6 because I think it's time to step back as well and look at
t7 the broader timeline and put all the pieces together.
l8 And I th'ink what wi 11 emerge i s a very troubl i ng story
t9 where you have you did your best, it looks like' in a very
20 di f f i cult si tuat'ion to try and protect and preserve the
2l bilateral relationships despite efforts by 14r. Donald Trump
22 and his personal agent, Rudy GiuIiani, to advance separate
23 parallel i nterests. And I thi nk i t's goi ng to be an
24 important thing to clarify for the rest of this interview.
25 So if I can turn to my colleague, Dan Nob1e. Thank you.
181
I BY MR. NOBLE:
I [2:50 p.m.]
2 BY MR. NOBLE:
J A I do.
Yes,
4 O 0kay. I'd like to go to kind of the bottom third,
5 picking up at August 9th, 2019, at 5:35 p.m., where
6 Ambassador Sondland writes: Morrison ready to get dates as
7 soon as Yermak confirms.
8 A Okay.
9 a What was Ambassador Sondland saying there?
l0 A Morrison ready to get dates as soon as Yermak
ll conf i rms. And I believe th'is ref erred to Yermak conf i rming
t2 that President Zelensky was going to make a statement along
l3 the lines that we had discussed in that other exchange.
t4 a A statement about the i nvesti gation?
l5 A A statement about Ukrai ne's commi tment to fi ghti ng
l6 corrupti on and i nvesti gati ng thi ngs that happened i n the
l7 past, and that this question that we
was where we had
l8 discussed earlier about whether it would specifically mention
l9 Burisma and 2015 or not. That's the statement in reference.
20 a 0kay. If you can just continue to read the next
2t few 1 i nes.
22 A I said: Excellent. How did you sway him?
23 Because and sha11 I explain it or just keep reading?
24 a Sure, go ahead and explain what you meant there.
25 A Okay. So I was very pleased that Morrison was
184
5 A Yeah.
6 a Over 2 months?
7 A Yes.
25 A Yes.
186
20 A Okay.
23 Mr. Yermak
24 A Uh-huh.
7 cor rect.
8 a to talk over you. All right.
Sorry
9 And then if you coutd skip down to August 1-0th, 20L9,
l0 the same day, at 5:42 p.m., what Mr. Yermak wrote.
ll A Rlght. Andriy Yermak: 0nce we have a date, we'11
t2 catl for a press briefing announcing upcoming visit and
l3 outlining vision for the reboot of U.S.-Ukraine relationship,
t4 i ncludi ng, among other thi ngs, Buri sma and electjon meddli ng
l5 j n j nvesti gati ons .
I things.
2 a Att right. So 1et's go to the next page, page 20,
J and at the top there, on August L2th, 2019, Mr. Yermak
4 sends -- I presume this is Ukrainian?
5 A I presume i t's Ukraj nj an.
6 a With a translation below?
7 A With a translation betow.
8 a And what is thjs? Is this a draft of the statement
9 that they, the Ukrainians, intend to release?
l0 A Yes, a portion of it that relates to it.
ll a Can you read what i t says?
t2 A It says: Special attention should be paid to the
l3 problem of interference in the politica1 processes of the
t4 United States, especially with the alleged involvement of
l5 some Ukrai ni an po1 i ti ci ans. I want to declare that thi s i s
t7 transparent and unbi ased i nvesti gati on of all avai 1ab1e facts
l8 and 'epi sodes which, i n turn, wi 11 prevent recurrence of thi s
l9 problem in the future.
20 a there's no mention of Burisma or the
And 2015
I BY MR. NOBLE:
J
a
new exhi b'it, t 8.
exhi bi
4 This appears to be a text message group with Mr. Yermak,
5 Ambassador SondIand, and yourself, correct?
6 A Yes.
I statement.
2 a Did you discuss the specifics of the statement?
J A Yes.
yes.
2 a And so by calling for an investigation in Burisma,
J i t was essentially calling for an investigation of Biden?
4 A No. In my mind, those are three separate thi ngs.
5 There is Bidens; there is Burisma as a company, which has a
6 long h'istory; and there i s 20L6 electi ons. And part of what
7 I was do'ing was maki ng sure and why I wanted to make sure
8 I was in this conversation that we are not getting the
9 Ukrainians into a pos'ition about talking about anything other
l0 than their own cjtizens, their own company, or whether their
ll own ci ti zens had done anythi ng i n 2015.
t2 a So that was your i nterpretat'ion, correct?
13 A Yes.
t4 a You don' t know what Rudy G'iul i ani meant by that?
l5 A I don't know what Rudy Giuliani meant by that.
l6 a 0r why exactly he wanted Burisma in there?
t7 A We can speculate now in hindsight, but
l8 a And 'in your conversations with the Ukrainians, did
l9 they 1i nk Buri sma wi th the Bidens?
20 A They never mentioned Biden to me.
2t a But when President Trump told Pres'ident Zelensky he
22 wanted President Zelensky to start an investigatjon of the
23 Bjdens, President Trump or President Zelensky understood
24 that to also be referring to Burisma. He sajd, the company.
25 A WeIl, as I sajd earljer, I think what he was doing
194
22 di d you r e spond ?
2 on August 15th.
J A Hi, did you connect with Andriy? Yeah.
4 a And then what did You saY?
5 A Not yet. Will talk with Bill and then call him
6 later today. Want to know our status on asking them to
7 i nvesti gate.
I A Yes.
10 A Yes.
t7 A No.
23 A Yes.
7 A Yes?
15 a Thank you.
l6 A There's somethi ng i n the fi rst part of your
t7 question, though, that I wanted to comment on.
24 had with Mr. Giulianj, the only time Vice President Biden was
25 ever di scussed with me, and he was repeati ng he wasn't
203
t7 descri bed the Bi dens and the company, di d he clari fy Buri sma?
l8 A In that conversation he had them you know, he
t9 had the whole narrative that was in the media.
20 a Ri ght. And so, therefore, Bi den and Bi den' s son
2t are intimately linked in that narratjve to Burisma, correct?
22 A Yeah, in yes, that's right.
23 a Okay, thank you. I just want to make that c1ear.
24 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
I quj ck second.
23 a I see.
24 A1t right. I want to take a step back, because I think
25 you testi fied earlier that Presi dent Zelensky was, 'in your
205
t7 A Yes.
I of vi ew.
2 A Yes.
2t Biden, but you already testified that Giulian'i linked the two
22 and the Ukrainians linked the two, right?
23 A That Giuliani f inked the two, yes, as we discussed.
24 I thi nk the Ukrai n'ians were doi ng the same thi ng I was doi ng,
25 is drawing a distinction. Our own company and whether they
208
t7 saying that long before the phone call in July and this
18 statement i n early August, ri ght?
t9 A He was he was saying that that is his view. It
20 was not clear to me that he was seeking investigations of
2t that speci fi cally by Ukrai ne.
22 a I understand, but that was his view. Then when he
23 asks for those specific investigations, they're part and
24 parcel of the same thing, right?
25 A We11, that's where I 'm tryi ng to di fferenti ate and
211
t7 Trump jn the phone call and you've read the transcript and
18 you're famjliar wi th all the parties was asking President
t9 Zelensky to manufacture dirt on the Bidens?
20 |\,lR. VOLKER: No . And I ' ve seen that ph rase th rown
4 " readout"
5 MR. V0LKER: Yes.
24 BY MR. CASTOR:
I pos'i t i on wi th Bu r i sma?
2 A I don't know any facts in this. I know I
J believe that because Burisma had a reputation for corruption
4 and money laundering that they were trying to spruce up their
5
'image, and one way that a company mi ght do that i s to put,
6 A 0f course.
7 a people would have questions?
8 A 0f course.
9 a , 'in f act, he was not perf ormi ng very many
And i f
l0 dutjes for Burisma, jf he did not speak the language, if he
ll did not provide any value to the company other than the fact
t2 that his fathelis the U.S. Vice President, that would be
l3 evidence of something worthy of invest'igating, right?
t4 A No, this is what I was referring to is that I don't
l5 believe that Vice President Biden would be corrupted in the
l6 way that he would carry out his duties as Vice President at
t7 all. But whether Ukrainians may have sought to buy influence
l8 or to believe that they were buying influence, that's qui te
l9 possi b1e.
20 a Do you thjnk it's worthy of evaluating like why
2l would -- you know, if somebody takes a no-show job and
22 essentially gets paid for nothing, is that worthy of
23 'investigating?
24 A I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure there
25 are lots of examples of things like that where famous names
217
t2 A 0f course.
l3 a I want to go back to your text messages, and I'd
l4 like to turn to the text messages with Rudy Giuliani.
l5 t4R. N0BLE: And I'm going to mark as the next exh'ibit,
l9 BY MR. NOBLE:
a
J he was very, very public, you know, and I think, you know,
4 ce|1 phones held up on camera and, you know, text messages
5 tweeted out and feeding these out there. And I was not
6 respondi ngto any of that. And i th'ink he was getti ng
7 frustrated that I was not responding to any of that because
8 I'm not backing up that story. And so I think he, with a bit
9 of irony, says: Thanks for the support.
l0 a Okay. 5o he was joking there?
ll A That's the waY i took i t.
t2 a That's how You took i t, okaY.
2 Presi dent?
J A He did not.
4 a Do you know whether Rudy Giuliani and Secretary
6 conversati ons?
9 a 0kaY.
t4 A No.
24 A Yes.
I meet i ng?
20
2t
22
23
24
25
233
I 14:07 p.m.I
2 BY MR. NOBL E :
ll BY MR. NOBLE:
8 A or a review.
9 a And I believe you said the first time you learned
l0 about that was well , actual1y, i t's i n the text messages.
ll I believe it might have been Bill Taylor said there was a
t2 SVTC.
l3 A Yes.
l5 freeze in July?
t6 A J uly L8.
1 A Yes.
2 a Which country were you referring to?
J A Ukrai ne.
4 a And what did you mean by this when you were telling
5 thi s to Bi 11 Taylor?
6 A Yeah. So I say there's not much to do about the
7 Gjuliani thing. He's going to be out there speaking publicly
8 and saying what he says no matter what. We can't fix that.
9 That's goi ng to happen.
l0 But we can right now you know, the key thing is what
ll we can do, meaning those of supporting United States and U.S.
t2 interests, what we can do, since the future of Ukraine is in
l3 play right now. We have a new president, there's going to be
t4 a new parliament, a new government, and it's going to be a
15 dicey t'ime. I was trying to encourage him to accept the
l6 position.
l7 a But isn't there something that the Secretary of
l8 State could have done about G'i uli an'i? Are you te11i ng us
l9 that Secretary of State Pompeo was helpless to stop Giuliani
20 from interfering with official U.S. diplomacy in Ukraine?
2t A Honestly, yes. I'm sure he could have called Rudy
22 Gjuljani, but would Rudy Giuliani stop doing what he's doing
23 because the Secretary of State calls him? I'd be surprised.
24 a What if President Trump had calted Giuliani and
25 said to knock it oft?
240
5 A I don't know.
6 a Specifically, Giutiani's efforts in Ukraine?
7 A I don't know whether he did.
8 t4R. SWALWELL: Just real quick. When you say "attorney
9 for the President," you mean attorney for Donald Trump,
l0 right, not the 0ffice of the President?
ll MR. V0LKER: Yes . Yes , that ' s what I mean .
14 BY MR. NOBLE:
6 A Yeah
7 a at all?
come up
8 A No. I don't recall that comi ng up at all.
9 And just reading on, so Bi t1 is say'ing, "You' re
l0 absolutely ri ght. We need somebody there. Why don't you be
ll Cha rge? "
t2 a To you, right?
l3 A To me, ri ght.
t4 a And d'id you wantthat j ob or no?
l5 A I did not want that job.
t6 a Why djdn't you want that job?
6 a Page 27.
7 A Yes. And
8 a 7/8/L9 at 9:14.
9 A Yes.
t9 A Yes.
1 problem here.
2 MR. SWALWELL: Rlght. But with all due respect,
J AmbaSSador, aS you said earlier, any time the President of
l0 BY MR. NOBLE:
18 leading up to
t9 A Yes.
22 A Yes, yes.
23 a in Warsaw.
22 bank as well.
23 in Ukraine just before the presidential
The courts
24 election, the courts in Ukraine had a finding that the
25 nationalization of the bank that had been done was not done
247
22 A He did.
23 a He did? Do you know what they talked about or what
24 the conversation was about?
25 A I did not get a readout on the cal1. I'm not sure
251
2 de1 ay.
l9 BY MR. NOBLE:
22 A Yes.
8 hurricane hi tti ng Flori da, and he cancelled hjs triP for that
9 stated reason.
l0 a Do you know for a fact that's why he cancelled it
ll or wasthat the stated reason?
l2 A That that's the only reason that's been given.
l3 a And President Trump was supposed to meet with
t4 Presj dent Zelensky i n Warsaw. Is that ri ght?
l5 A That ' s cor rect.
16 a And had you been work j ng lead'ing up to that
t7 meeting? Had you been working to arrange that meeting?
l8 A I had been pushing for the two of them to get
19 together f rom May; that I s'incerely beli eved that once
20 President Trump sat down with President Zelensky, he would
2t have the same conclus'ion that this is Someone we can work
22 with, as I had when I met with him.
23 a Did you attend the meeting in Warsaw?
24 A No.
25 l'4R. N0BLE: Is it t'ime's up? Okay. I see. l'ly time's
253
I up, so I'11
2 MR. VOLKER: 0kay.
J MR. CASTOR: I'light be possible should we take a break
4 or keep going?
5 MR. SWALWELL: I prefer to keep going.
6 MR. V0LKER: I'm okay.
7 MR. CASTOR: 0kay. Keep goi ng?
8 Do you have any questi ons at thi s ti me?
9 MR. PERRY: I don' t.
l0 MR. MEAD0WS: As long as we have at the end where we can
ll come back and do a round.
t2 MR. SWALWELL: Sure.
l3 MR. CAST0R: We might have couple of things here. I
t4 don't thjnk it's worth turning over.
l5 MR. MEADOWS: He is getting married on Saturday.
l6 MR. N0BLE: We won't be here on Saturday.
t7 MR. V0LKER: Thank you.
l8 BY MR. NOBLE:
l8 staf f .
22 would have been Some contact with the State Department, but
l0 meeti ng 1 i ke that
ll MR. VOLKER: Yes.
I A Yes.
) A yes. VadYm.
Yes,
4 a He writes: Have to recognize it was a good meet.
13 meet i ng?
22 a to that statement?
Whatever happened
23 A It died. I mean, no one once we started seeing
24 a tempo of engagement wi th Ukraine, we had first the sense
25 that Rudy was not goi ng to be convinced that it meant
260
l3 A Yes.
24 A Yes.
25 a 0kaY.
261
4 Can you set the scene for us? This is July 4th, 2019'
1l Prystai ko, I asked him what h'is take was on the meeti ng. He
24 A Yes.
J A Yes.
2t that.
22 I think I might be done with text messages. I'm not
So
23 making any promises, but we can set those aside for right
24 now.
I a little confused that this was true, but this is what Bill
2 said.
J a Did you subsequently learn whether that was true or
4 not?
ll A Yes.
I text.
2 a You didn't learn anything more than what was
4 A No, no.
5 a Okay. Now, Vice President Pence relayed to the
6 Ukrainians -- official explanat'ion for
he did not relay an
7 why the aid was bejng he1d. Is that right?
8 A That's my understanding, that's correct.
9 a And you were not aware of any explanation for why
10 the aid was being hetd?
7 a They wanted
8 A That jf they stated they would do it.
9 a them to begin the investigatjons, right?
l0 A Yes.
I A No.
l9 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
24 time.
25 a So you di d read i t at the t'ime. Could you read the
271
6 a Okay. When you read that at the time, what did you
7 thi nk?
22 A Ri ght.
23 a And then that message was relayed to the Ukrainians
24 at the end of August, right?
25 A Whi ch message?
275
J A Yes.
4 a Okay
9 thing.
l0 a We11, "advocating" actua11y, doesn't that mean that
ll he's actually pushing for it rather than just supporting one?
I A Yes.
2 a And this was a phone call that you had been trying
J to get
4 A Yes.
7 a Right. Now, you said in one text that you were out
8 of the toop, you had only two phone conversations with Donald
9 Trump, you were not privy to Rudy Giul jani's conversat'ions
l0 wi th the Ukrai ni ans. I s that ri ght?
ll A Yes.
22 a closelY?
23 A Yes.
I presi dent.
2
a
J
l0
ll
t2
l3
14
l5
t6
l7
18
l9
20
2l
22
23
24
25
282
I [5 :05 p .m. ]
2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:
7 O You have?
t4 a OkaY.
24 think it's important that both take p1ace. You know, it's
25 important to fight corruption. It's important that the
283
9 otherwi se, and that and so every t'ime that came up af ter
l0 that I felt I had already put up that marker'
ll a 0kay. Now, understandi ng that you've been
t2 testifying today primarily to what you knew at the time,
l3 let's just take a step back and look back with hindsight that
t4 i s 20/20, because you know thi s area very welt. You're an
I a Understood.
2 Mr. Noble, do you want to go through a couple of the
a
J other meeti ngs?
4 BY MR. NOBLE:
19 i nvesti gati ng thi ngs that happened i n the past. I don't know
25 A I don't know.
286
5 A I don't.
6 a Do you know whether they discussed Burisma?
7 A I do not.
8 a Do you know whether they discussed Paut Manafort?
9 A I don't.
l0 a Do you know whether they discussed a White House
ll vi si t?
t2 A I don't.
13 a Do you know whether there's a transcript or a
22 A at teast, if we
Cabinet leve1, so that we were
23 weren't getting the vice presjdent, it was Stil1 important to
24 have Someone at a cabinet 1eve1, and because We have a 1ot of
25 issues with Ukraine on energy. He has an interest in
289
t2 a Fai r enough.
l5 to me.
l6 a Why di dn' t Secretary Pompeo lead the delegat'ion?
t7 Wouldn't he have been more approprjate?
l8 A He would have been a great cholce. I don't know
l4 any di scussi on about Rudy Gi uli ani or the i nvesti gati ons
l5 A No.
l5 lRecess.I
l6 MR. BITAR: We'11 return on the record. It's 5:27 for
t7 the mi nor i ty.
l8 MR. NUNES : Welcome, Ambassador. 1'1y name i s Devon
t9 you know, you were asked whether Vice President Pence didn't
20 travel of, you know, the aid iSSue or there WaSn't an
because
2t investigation into Joe Biden and so forth. And you testified
22 that you didn't have any firsthand knowledge on that and, in
L) fact, you sajd it was probably his schedule.
24 A That was my assumption. It is difficult to get
25 things on the President or Vice President's calendar.
293
l0 a Secretary Perry?
ll A Yes.
20 A Ri ght.
2l a for alt thi ngs Bi den?
22 A Cor rect.
23 a 0kaY.
24 A Correct.
25 a Exhibit L2 was the Ukrainians' readout from the
296
I call.
2 A Saythat again?
J a Exhibit L2 earlier was the
9 A Uh-huh.
2l A Yes.
24 A That's correct.
25 a And then on this readout I don't see the word
297
I A Yes.
J A Yes.
20 Trump has met wi th Rudy Gjuliani in the 0va1 Office. Are You
2l aware of any such things?
22 A I have no knowledge of that.
23 a Presi dent TrumP has met w'i th I'm sorry, wi th
I the fact
2 t"lR. VOLKER: Yes.
J MR. PERRY: -- that the money was not forthcoming and
23 Mr. Mulvaney was there, but I'm not sure about that. 0ur
24 Chargeat the t"ime in Kyiv, Joe Pennington, was not there.
25 O Okay. And approximately how long did the meeting
304
I last?
2 A I woutd suspect about a half an hour.
J a And can you describe the di scussi on
4 A Yes.
5 a that occurred?
6 A Yes. The Pres'ident started the meeting and started
7 wi th ki nd of a negat'ive assessment of the Ukrai ne. As I 've
8 said earlier
9 a Yep.
15 a In 20L6?
16 A Yes. And each of us took turns from this
t7 delegati on gi vi ng our poi nt of vi ew, wh'ich was that thi s i s a
l8 new crowd, jt's a new President, he is committed to doing the
J A I don't.
4 a He was not in the meetinS?
5 A He was not in the meeting.
6 a And what was the outcome of that meeti ng? What was
7 the conclusion, the takeawaYs?
2 Go rdon told me that Jay Leno was there. And that was
3 a Why was Jay Leno there?
4 A I have no i dea.
5 a And who else Secretary Perry was there, cor rect?
6 A I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.
7 a 0h, you don't know.
8 A I don't know.
l0 strategic message.
25 happen i ng .
310
t7 A No.
9 A Yes.
I A Yes.
23 A Yep.
l8 Sure. Sure.
a
t9 No, I was not aware of that. I was hosting a
A
20 conference i n Tbilis'i for the McCai n Insti tute.
2l a Did there come a time when you learned about the
22 investigation?
23 A Just now.
I A No.
2 a in the
J A No.
25 heari ng that.
316
I And then I bef ieve 'it was about 2 days later i t emerged
2 that it was about ukraine. And then, you know, the cycle
J just escalated from there, and I followed those media reports
4 and then I saw the transcript reteased and then I saw the
5 whistleblower rePort released.
6 MR. SWALWELL: Thanks.
7 BY MR. NOBLE:
t2 AThatringsabell.SeptemberLT.Wedon'thave
l3 any more information that rings a bel1. I believe that
l4 took pl ace.
l5 a Okay. 5o did you help prepare the Secretary for
l6 that call?
t7 A In the sense that I would meet with the secretary
l8 periodically to update him on what I was doing and things
l9 with Ukraine. I think I had met with him on I had just
20 made a note as I was going through some of these messages
25 that this phone call was the Vice President getting back to
318
4 a And you said you believe that' Why do you bel i eve
5 that?
6 A I'm j ust trYi ng to remember conversations I had
7 with Bitl TaYlor who totd me about i t.
8 a OkaY. Bi 11 TaYlor totd you about the SePtember L8
9 call?
l0 A Yes.
l3 A Yes.
t4 abetweenPres.identTrumpandPresidentZelensky
l5 on September 25. You attended UNGA, didn't you?
l6 A I did.
t7 a Did you help prepare for that meeting?
l8 A Yes.
19 a Between the Presidents?
20 AldldnotpreparethePresidentsspecifically.I
2l did have these conversations with secretary Pompeo in advance
22 of the UNGA meetings.
23 a what did you djscuss with secretary Pompeo about
24 the meeti ng?
2 release?
J A That it had not been well coordinated with them.
4 They felt that they were being a little bit that their
5 i nterests were bei ng di sregarded or subordi nated to U. S.
20 and that was the conversation I had with Andriy the night
2t before.
22 a At any point during UNGA or leading up to UNGA, was
23 the subject of the investigations that President Trump and
24 Rudy Giuliani had been pressing the Ukrainians to commence
25 rai sed, the j ssue of the j nvesti gati ons?
322
I about the phone. I just want to ask, you know, going through
2 your biography and your service to our country and the fact
3 that you stepped up here to serve for free, as you said,
4 sacrifice to your family, sacrifice to the lulcCain Institute,
5 and you had, I think as Mr. Goldman said, very good
6 intentions as far as executing U.5. policy.
7 Now that you have the benefit of hindsight and you're
l0 how does it make you feel that you were doing all of this
11 work and you were not read into thjs other track, which the
l2 Ukrai ni ans certa'in1y knew was goi ng on?
13
t4
l5
l6
t7
l8
l9
20
2l
22
23
24
25
327
I [6:11 p.m.]
2 I'1R. VOLKER: How did it make me feel?
t2 to be successful.
l3 a And how important is his success tied to the United
t4 States' poli ti ca1 or di plomati c support?
l5 A I believe it's very important that he has that.
t6 a is that?
Why
I improper in h'is
2 A Correct.
J O relations with Ukraine; correct?
4 A Yes, that's ri ght.
5 a So when Rudy G'iuli ani , or now, you have the benef i t
6 of the call record where President Trump talks about Burjsma
7 or Biden, you understand that or talks about Burisma,
8 rather, let's j ust Rudy Gi uf i ani talks about Buri sma. You
9 understand he doesn't actually care whether the Ukrainian
l0 Government investigates a Ukrainian company for corruption,
ll co r rec t?
23 BY MR. NOBLE:
J Tri vi a1 Pursuit.
4 a In spelling Ukrainian.
5 Are you aware of a Skype conversation between Rudy
6 Giuliani and former Prosecutor General Victor Shokin in late
7 2018?
8 A No.
I A J ust press.
2 a You djdn't have any conversatjon with Lutsenko
J about that?
4 A No, no, no.
5 a Did you have any conversations with Ukrainian
6 officials about the reopening of those investigations?
7 A No, no.
8 O And then helater closed those investigations in, I
9 bel i eve, May of 20L9. I s that cor rect?
l0 A I thi nk that's ri ght.
ll a In April of 2019, before the final round of the
t2 Ukrainian Presidential election, we understand that Ukrain'ian
l3 Interior Minister Arsen Avakov traveled to Washington, D.C.
t4 Are you aware of that visit?
l5 A Yes, yes.
l6 O What do you know about that visit?
t7 A I bel i eve I saw hi m on that vi s'i t, and he was
l8 distancing himself from Poroshenko and wanted to have a
t9 separate set of relationships jn Washington different from
20 Poroshenko, probably wi th a v'iew of wi shi ng that he would be
2l kept in office as well.
22 a Simi 1ar to Lutsenko?
23 A Simi 1ar to Lutsenko.
24 O Do you know who Interior Minister Avakov met with
25 in Washington, D.C.?
335
5 A Yes.
23 up.
J honestly, over eight hours now, I've been impressed. Not one
I somethi ng that was wrong and not 'in the best i nterests of the
2 Unj ted States, would you do i t?
a
J
l0
ll
t2
l3
t4
l5
t6
t7
l8
t9
20
2t
22
23
24
25
343
5 menti oned.
3 BY MR. NOBLE:
ll A Ri ght.
t2 a And I believe you may have mentioned this meeting
l3 before during your testimony, but can you provide the context
t4 for why he was asking you to meet with Secretary Pompeo?
l5 A Yes. This was to have a meeting, which for me was
l6 the phone call on the 22nd of September, to talk with
t7 Secretary Pompeo about Giuliani going very public wi th the
l8 statements about our instructing him and that he was
t9 representing the State Department and so forth.
20 a Got i t. In response to Gi uli ani 's text to you, i s
2l that right, that we went through earlier?
22 A Yes, his two attempted phone calls, his texts to
23 me, my conversation with Ulrich Brechbuhl, which had gotten
24 to the Secretary. And so this was a followup to that for a
25 conversation with the SecretarY.
347
l6 A Ri ght.
l7 a did Rudy te1l you during that phone call?
What
l8 AHe said that that is helpful to have that statement
t9 from August 22nd that confirms that I was the one who put
20 Yermak in touch with him, and he was going to then tel1 that
2l to John Solomon. That's what he said.
22 a And John Solomon is the reporter at The Hitl?
23 A He's a reporter at The Hi 11.
24 a 0r former reporter, right? He's no tonger wjth The
25 Hi t1?
348
A Is that right?
) MR. NEAD0WS: One more daY.
4 BY I,IR. NOBLE:
8 so he wanted to get this point into the article that Rudy was
9 not acting alone, but or that is not the right way to Say
l0 j t. That Rudy was he did not 'ini ti ate the contact wi th
20 a Why not?
2t That's all I have.
22 BY ]'4R. GOLDMAN:
t7 a Who?
ll finish?
t2 MR. SWALWELL: Ms. Speier from california has joined us.
13 MS. SPEIER: Thank you. I apologize for not being here
l5 Prosecutor General.
l6 MS. SPEIER: COrrCCt.
t7 f,4R. did not trust Prosecutor
V0LKER: President Zelensky
l8 General Lutsenko at all. He thought that he was there for
t9 his own interests and to protect Poroshenko's jnterests and
20 was determ'ined to remove him from office.
2t MS. SPEIER: But you' re i nterpreti ng Presi dent Trump's
22 comments differently than I did. I thought he was being
23 supportive of t'lr. Lutsenko, and wasn't it Mr. Lutsenko who
24 put the op-ed'in The Hill about the three principles that he
25 thought needed to be reviewed, which included precisely what
357
2t materials publicly.
22 I that the depos'ition rules of the committee
understand
23 require Ambassador Volker to have an opportunity to revjew
24 the transcript before its release. WjII we be afforded that
25 privi tege?
359
360