Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page1 of 294

No. 19-440
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
BROKER GENIUS INC.,

Plaintiff-Counter-Defendant - Appellee,

v.

DREW GAINOR, SEAT SCOUTS LLC,

Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants,

and
GUINIO VOLPONE, EVENT TICKET SALES LLC, RAY VOLPONE, 4311 N
161st St Omaha, NE 68116, STUART GAINOR, 69 Yates Rd Manalapan, NJ
07726, VOLPONE SOFTWARE LLC, 7202 Giles Road Suite 4 #330 La Vista,
NE 68128, GAINOR SOFTWARE LLC, 5706 Belmont Valley Ct. Raleigh, NC
27602,
Defendants.

On Appeal from the United States District Court

for the Southern District of New York

APPENDIX VOL. 1
HINCKLEY & HEISENBERG LLP
880 Third Avenue, Suite 15
New York, NY 10022
Phone: (212) 845-9094
Fax: (212) 820-9790
Counsel for Appellants
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page2 of 294

APPENDIX TABLE OF CONTENTS

1. District Court Docket Sheet ..................................................................... A1-48

2. August 21, 2018 Hearing Transcript Excerpts ...................................... A49-59
3. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 5 ........................................................... A60
4. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 6 ............................................................ A61
5. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 9 ..................................................... A62-63
6. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 11 .......................................................... A64
7. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 12 ................................................... A65-66
8. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 13 ................................................... A67-69
9. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 14 ................................................... A70-71
10. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 15 ........................................................ A72
11. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 16 ........................................................ A73
12. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 17 ........................................................ A74
13. August 21, 2018 Hearing Def. Ex. 18 ........................................................ A75
14. Deposition of Ryan Colich............... .................................................... A76-86
15. Proceedings on Motions in Limine..................................................... A87-102
16. Trial Proceedings Excerpts................................................................ A103-265
17. Excerpts of relevant jury charge conference...................................... A266-279
18. Excerpts of summations..................................................................... A280-282
19. Excerpts of jury charge...................................................................... A283-291

i
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08/19/2019, ÿÿ23Page14 of 294
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 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page51 of 294 1
I8L5broH

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x

3 BROKER GENIUS

4 Plaintiff

5 v. 17 Civ. 8627 (SHS)

6 SEAT SCOUTS, et al.,

7 Defendants

8 ------------------------------x
New York, N.Y.
9 August 21, 2018
10:00 a.m.
10
Before:
11
HON. SIDNEY H. STEIN
12
District Judge
13
APPEARANCES
14
PEARL COHEN ZEDEK LATZER BARATZ LLP
15 Attorneys for Plaintiff
VERONICA M. MUNOZ
16 DANIEL J. MELMAN
ARI FARKAS
17
HINCKLEY & HEISENBERG LLP
18 Attorneys for Defendants Seat Scouts and Gainor
CHRISTOPH C. HEISENBERG
19 GEORGE HINCKLEY

20 NESENOFF & MILTENBERG

Attorneys for Defendants Seat Scouts and Gainor
21 STUART BERNSTEIN

22

23

24

25

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-49
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page52 of 294 39
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 that the Court had determined that goPricer was not an --

2 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. Beyond the scope.

3 THE COURT: Just a moment.

4 (Pause)

5 THE COURT: No, the question was why they did what

6 they did. I will allow it.

7 THE WITNESS: So, after working with counsel to come

8 up with a good faith interpretation of the injunction, we noted

9 that the Court and Mr. Sherman himself had stated that goPricer

10 was not an autopricer, it was a marketplace viewer, so that was

11 our guide in terms of what was, as far as we could tell, would

12 be allowed.

13 We also went back, because there was an area of the

14 injunction around not to use proprietary technology, so we went

15 back to our 2015 wire frames and --

16 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. Beyond the scope.

17 THE COURT: That, I agree with.

18 Go ahead. Next question.

19 THE WITNESS: That was part of it. Sorry.

20 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

21 Q. During the course of the questioning by Ms. Munoz there was

22 a distinction made between automatic calculation of prices and

23 also the automatic transmission of prices. Can you tell us

24 what you understand goPricer does with respect to the dynamic

25 calculation of those suggested prices?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300
[August 21, 2018 Tr. page 39]
A-50
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page53 of 294 40
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.

2 MS. MUNOZ: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

5 Q. In the course of incorporating those processes into

6 Event Watcher, what was the analysis that you conducted as to

7 how those prices would be transmitted into point of sale?

8 A. I'm not sure I fully understand that.

9 Q. You said you used goPricer as a model. How does that

10 include the process of transmitting the prices from the --

11 software into the user's point of sale?

12 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. Leading.

13 THE COURT: I will allow it, if the basis is leading.

14 Go ahead.

15 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Could you repeat?

16 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

17 Q. Can you explain your understanding of how goPricer

18 transmits --

19 THE COURT: No, this is not about goPricer.

20 You are having him explain why he thought, because

21 goPricer, you say Sherman said was not an autopricer, he could

22 do the same thing here with Event Watcher?

23 Is that what you are doing?

24 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, your Honor.

25 It goes to the question of what is autopricing and

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300
[August 21, 2018 Tr. page 40]
A-51
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page54 of 294 41
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 since the Court has accepted the concept that goPricer is not

2 an autopricer even though it creates suggested prices, I am

3 focusing on the transmission of that suggested pricing to the

4 market to find out what Mr. Gainor's understanding was in

5 developing Event Watcher on that aspect.

6 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. That is not what Mr. Sherman

7 said when he was reading from a goPricer document that said it

8 wasn't an autopricer. That is not what Mr. Sherman testified

9 to.

10 THE COURT: Does somebody have the testimony here?

11 MR. HEISENBERG: We will find that. The more direct

12 thing I think that was that the Court held that it was not an

13 autopricer so I think that we could go from that as well.

14 THE COURT: All right.

15 MS. MUNOZ: I object. I think it is

16 misrepresentation.

17 THE COURT: Okay. Find it in my preliminary

18 injunction opinion, sir.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: Sure.

20 (pause)

21 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, it is on page 35.

22 MR. BERNSTEIN: Your Honor, if I may approach for one

23 second to give the exhibits to you and witness?

24 MS. MUNOZ: Excuse me. What exhibits are they?

25 MR. BERNSTEIN: All the exhibits you got yesterday.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-52 [August 21, 2018 Tr. page 41]

 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page55 of 294 42
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 MS. MUNOZ: Okay.

2 THE COURT: All right. I see on page 35, thank you,

3 you have directed me to a statement in the preliminary

4 injunction, a decision where I say: It is notable that, like

5 Core, neither Seat Trax or goPricer are autopricers -- and

6 there is reference to the Sherman testimony.

7 That's adequate for me at this point.

8 MS. MUNOZ: Your Honor, may I be heard?

9 THE COURT: Yes.

10 MS. MUNOZ: On page 34 of the preliminary injunction

11 ruling at the end of the last full paragraph the Judge is

12 talking about -- I'm sorry, you are talking about --

13 THE COURT: That's all right. I know who I am.

14 MS. MUNOZ: You are talking about users of Core could

15 also set rules to adjust prices by a flat dollar amount or

16 percentage but not by reference to comparable tickets or other

17 secondary market criteria and so, critically, it was not an

18 autopricer. And so, when you say at the top of page 35: But

19 it is notable, that like Core, neither Seat Trax nor goPricer

20 are autopricers... and that's why they're not autopricers,

21 because they cannot come up with the new price, they cannot

22 automatically calculate the new price by reference to

23 comparable tickets or other secondary market criteria. That's

24 what an autopricer is. And the Court fully explained that in

25 the preliminary injunction hearing.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-53 [August 21, 2018 Tr. page 42]

 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page56 of 294 43
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, I think the record shows

2 that with respect to goPricer, she was specking about Core and

3 we are not asking about Core at this moment. We are asking

4 about the decision to structure Event Watcher along the lines

5 of goPricer which the Court said was not an autopricer. And

6 so --

7 MS. MUNOZ: But the Court said it wasn't an AutoPricer

8 because, like Core, it doesn't reference to comparable tickets

9 or other secondary market criteria.

10 THE COURT: All right, let me --

11 MS. MUNOZ: This has nothing to do with pushing the

12 autopriced new prices for inventory to the POS.

13 THE COURT: It seems to me that I'm going to go back

14 to the purpose of the hearing: To what extent Seat Scouts

15 enabled the customers to automate the pricing updates. And we

16 have heard testimony about that, there is no question. But the

17 issue of what goPricer did or goPricer didn't do, I think, is a

18 separate issue from the extent to which Seat Scouts enabled the

19 customers to automate the pricing updates. So, I'm going to

20 bring you back to that, sir. The issue is not what goPricer

21 was or wasn't. I only want to hear what Seat Scouts did to

22 enable the customers to automate the pricing updates.

23 Go ahead.

24 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, your Honor.

25 We do believe that there was testimony and it was

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-54 [August 21, 2018 Tr. page 43]

 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page57 of 294 44
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 elicited by the plaintiffs about the method by which rules are

2 calculated, which is something we would like to have the

3 opportunity to address.

4 THE COURT: But, wait. We have heard all about that

5 in the preliminary injunction hearing of cascading widgets and

6 how the customer makes her own rules. That's not relevant to

7 the pushing out or pulling to the point of sale on an automatic

8 basis. That's the question of how the prices are calculated,

9 not the automatic update.

10 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. Our point here is simply to

11 establish the first point which is that goPricer does do that

12 first section but now we are willing to address the distinction

13 that the Court has in mind.

14 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

15 Q. Mr. Gainor, once a calculated price is gathered in

16 goPricer, how do you understand that it transmits that price

17 into the user's point of sale?

18 THE COURT: I am sustaining the objection.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: All right.

20 THE COURT: To what extent did defendants enable their

21 customers to automate Event Watcher's pricing updates?

22 Go ahead.

23 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

24 Q. Mr. Gainor, the method by which Event Watcher transmits to

25 the point of sale, is that automatic or is that done through

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300
[August 21, 2018 Tr. page 44**]
A-55
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page58 of 294 50
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 A. Command Center would run, at most, every five minutes, so

2 it would be a lot slower.

3 Q. So, with regard to this customer who it appears does seem

4 to have an update every 15 minutes, how does that automation,

5 though, compare to the actual results or the benefits of

6 autopricing that are in Command Center?

7 A. I mean, they're definitely getting a less -- they're

8 definitely at a disadvantage of anybody with an autopricer when

9 it is instantly being pushed, for sure.

10 Q. And just to tie that to a point you made earlier, when you

11 said that when you switched over to Event Watcher and it has a

12 manual pricer, you said that some of the customers had observed

13 to you or noted to you something about the difference and

14 whether they enjoyed one more than the other.

15 Can you explain that a little bit more?

16 A. Yeah.

17 We had probably around 20 clients e-mail us and tell

18 us they wouldn't be able to continue anymore since we were no

19 longer an autopricer and would be happy to come back if we were

20 ever able to enable that again.

21 Q. In addition to those customers who had left you were given

22 the number of about 85 or so percent of the users who do not

23 appear to be updating at a certain frequency. Can you go over

24 how that number was calculated?

25 A. Yes. I believe that if you get to page, I believe it is

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-56 [August 21, 2018 Tr. page 50]

 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page59 of 294 56
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

2 Q. Did any of the customers at this time contact you

3 concerning assistance in building out some automation on their

4 end?

5 A. Yes, they did.

6 Q. Do you know a person -- well, do you recall any particular

7 names of people who have asked?

8 A. I don't.

9 Q. Does the name Ryan Colich ring a bell?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And what did you understand -- we will hear from him from

12 his testimony read in, but were there -- how many others do you

13 recall, were there other instances in which customers had asked

14 for assistance?

15 A. Yes. Several customers had asked if we could either

16 introduce them to a developer that they could work with or

17 write code for them or anything along those lines, to which we

18 declined.

19 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. Hearsay.

20 THE COURT: Just a moment. I will admit it not for

21 the truth of the matter but simply for the fact that it was

22 said, but not for the truth.

23 Proceed.

24 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

25 Q. You explained a little bit on your direct or on your

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300
[August 21, 2018 Tr. page 56]
A-57
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page60 of 294 57
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 examination by Ms. Munoz about a line that you had drawn. Can

2 you explain that line a little bit further?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. After reviewing the injunction and the opinion in the

5 injunction many times, we had come to the conclusion that --

6 well, really, the Court had come to the conclusion, we believe,

7 that the autopricer was what the issue was and so we had

8 concluded that if we had come up with a product that was

9 similar to what was a marketplace viewer in the order then we

10 would be in compliance, and part of that was making sure that I

11 told my entire company at no point were they to assist anybody

12 in pushing the button automatically, using the API, or anything

13 along those lines.

14 THE COURT: But you were giving them the button,

15 right? You were giving them the token, if they asked for it,

16 and the documentation?

17 THE WITNESS: Sure. I mean, every application within

18 API works that way. It is standard for every web application.

19 THE COURT: All right.

20 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

21 Q. Could you explain a little bit more, first of all, can you

22 give us a definition of what an API is?

23 A. Sure. It's as the Judge said, actually, it's essentially a

24 messenger, a communication channel between the end user and the

25 server. So, for instance, in this case Seat Scouts, so it

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-58 [August 21, 2018 Tr. page 57 **]

 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page61 of 294 71
I8L5broH Gainor - cross

1 of drawing the distinction in pricing, how pricing occurs was

2 based principally on goPricer here and that report the Court

3 had said goPricer is not a comparable product, that we should

4 be permitted to at least introduce how the features in

5 Event Watcher compared to the product that this Court said was

6 not comparable to the one thing in the injunction.

7 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. That's not what the Court said

8 and I read what the Court said.

9 THE COURT: Well, on 35 that's the correct phrasing.

10 MS. MUNOZ: But if you read the whole sentence it is

11 referring to what he said on the bottom of 34 where you said

12 Core is not an autopricer because it doesn't -- it is not

13 comp-based with the market data and the rules.

14 MR. HEISENBERG: But this isn't Core. I'm asking

15 about --

16 MS. MUNOZ: But you said "like Core."

17 THE COURT: Yes, ma'am?

18 MS. MUNOZ: You said: Like Core, goPricer is not

19 autopricer. For those reasons...

20 THE COURT: I'm not going to let you go into goPricer.

21 You have your record.

22 Next?

23 MR. HEISENBERG: No further questions.

24 THE COURT: Any redirect?

25 MS. MUNOZ: Yes, I have a very short redirect.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

A-59 [August 21, 2018 Tr. page 71]

 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page62 of 294

From: Lauren Gainor

Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 11:08 AM EDT
To: Sean Leahy
Subject: Re: Event Watcher trial

Hello- here is a link that should work to get into Event Watcher:

app.seatscouts.com/event-watcher/events

Do not hesitate to reach out with any questions.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 17, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Sean Leahy <seanleahy wrote:
>
> Good morning, Lauren,
>
> TicketeStore was very sorry to see the news about Command Center. Wishing you and the Seat Scouts team the
best during this trying time.
>
> I've been attempting to log into Event Watcher, and I'm getting an error message. Please let me know when we're
good to go for it, we'd like to explore the tool.
>
> You can reach me any time at . Thank you very much, Lauren.
>
> -Sean
>
> --
> Director of Sales and Strategy
> TicketeStore
>

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-60 SS75092
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page63 of 294

From: Jeremy Najjar

Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:25 PM EDT
To: Brendan O'Donoghue
Subject: Event Watcher

Hey Brendan,

I will not be using Event Watcher for the foreseeable future. I am unable to manage my
inventory without having an auto prier.

I will only be using the payment and purchase reconciliation tools for now. I am going ahead and
removing the API from Skybox.

Best regards,

--
Jeremy Najjar
Smash Entertainment
3

Confidential-Attorney's Eyes Only

A-61 SS113414
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page64 of 294

From: Brendan ODonoghue

Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 2:30 PM EDT
To: lauren@seatscouts.com
Subject: Seat Scouts: Brendan ODonoghue closed a conversation with Kyle Steckel

Write ABOVE to reply to Kyle Steckel USER View conversation

Brendan ODonoghue closed this conversation on 24 May, 2:28pm

KS Thank you Lauren. When the lawsuit blows over I will definiately be interested in returning, and please
do let me know when you all have prices for the reconciler. I am certainly interested in keeping this if the
price is reasonable. Thank you - Kyle

Kyle on 18 May, 12:34pm

Hello Kyle - I am sorry for the delay. I'm not sure if you have spoken to anyone yet. I'm sorry to hear that
you want to cancel Event Watcher right now. Is it due to the current Lawsuit? Do you feel more
comfortable waiting for a final outcome?
I can take care of cancelling your account today & will send you an email confirmation of this.
Right now we are working on a re-vamp of our Reconciler product to improve the functionality, so pricing
is not available. I'd be happy to reach out to you once we are able to offer that service again and we can
chat further about it.
Thank you for your patience & understanding as we work through things on our end. We appreciate your
business!

Lauren on 18 May, 10:29am

Lauren Gainor assigned this conversation to themselves on 18 May, 10:29am

Conversation assigned to Operations Team by rule Assign to Operations on 17 May, 4:26pm

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-62 SS75158
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page65 of 294

KS Hello - Unfortunately, I think I am going to need to cancel my service with you all. Hopefully your
situation will work out in your favor and I can use your service again for the autopricer. Please advise on
how I can do this. Also, I was wondering if you all offer the reconciler by itself, and if so, at what cost.

Kyle at Bloodhound Tickets on 17 May, 4:26pm

EMAIL i
SIGNED UP 3 months ago
Raleigh, United States

This email was sent from Intercom You can change your notification settings here

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-63 SS75159
 Case Case
1:17-cv-08627-SHS-SN
19-440, Document 76,
Document
08/19/2019,
149-72636358,
Filed 06/15/18
Page66 of
Page
294 1 of 2

Tuesday, Jun 12, 11:39 AM

Re: [Seat Scouts] Bill Smith: 'Your Event Watcher trial is coming to
an end'
by Bill Smith | notifications@intercom-mail.com

Write ABOVE to reply to Bill Smith USER View conversation

BS
Hi Drew,

I really haven't had time to thoroughly evaluate the changes so please let
me know if I missed anything. The time I did have to check it out made it
seem very cumbersome and time consuming as now I would need to visit
each listing and click the button to update pricing. Unfortunately it's almost
as easy to use the SkyBox POS and visit the Stubhub link to check pricing
and reprice. If there were a way to apply all of pricing updates at once to all
of the rules that have been created that would have worked for me.

I loved your product before the change and I am patiently waiting for the
automated pricing functionality to return. Hopefully it will at some point.

You can discontinue my EventWatcher subscription.

Thank You,
Bill Smith

Bill at Gold Discounters Inc on 12 Jun, 11:39am

EMAIL

SIGNED UP 3 months ago Pinellas Park, United States

Hi Bill,
I hope you have been enjoying your free Event Watcher trial, from which
we believe you will have recognized it as the most powerful analytics, data
and marketplace viewer the industry has ever seen!
Your billing period will begin on 6/14/18. This means that you will not be
charged for your 1st month of service until the end of your 1st billing
period, based on actual usage.
We are going to be taking 10% off of your Event Watcher bill for your 1st 3
billing periods as a thank you for your loyalty. You can find our pricing tiers
A-64
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page67 of 294

From: Brendan O'Donoghue

Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 3:44 PM EDT
To: adamadkins@
Subject: Re: Status

At this time, we have no updates and our users will continue to be able to access Event Watcher.
Let me know if you have other questions regarding Event Watcher or want to speak regarding
that product.

Brendan O'Donoghue
Director of Operations at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-295-9044 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email brendan@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Jun 12, 2018, at 3:42 PM, <adamadkins@ >

<adamadkins@ > wrote:

Yes… I am able to access Event Watcher… my question was geared towards any developments with
the old Command Center.

-ADAM

From: Brendan O'Donoghue <brendan@seatscouts.com>

Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 3:09 PM
To: adamadkins@
Subject: Re: Status

Hey Adam,

I see that your account is active and you are able to access Event Watcher. Please let me know if you
are still having any issues though in using the system.

Brendan O'Donoghue
Director of Operations at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-295-9044 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email brendan@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-65 SS56632
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page68 of 294

On Jun 11, 2018, at 9:12 AM, adamadkins@ wrote:

Hey Brendan,

I was just checking in to see how things were going. I know things with lawsuits and timelines are
hard to predict but is there any news? How long do you think we are going to be locked out of
seatscouts?

-ADAM

From: Brendan O'Donoghue <brendan@seatscouts.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2018 10:44 AM
To: Adam Adkins <adamadkins@b
Subject: Re: Tristar Tickets - Command Center

Hey Adam,

For Command Center, the last thing you need to add is your Stubhub username and password
at https://app.seatscouts.com/stubhub.

We can then go through all pricing tool stuff with your actual listings on our call, and also discuss
some of the other reconciliation stuff.

Brendan O'Donoghue
Director of Operations at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-295-9044 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email brendan@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Mar 19, 2018, at 4:51 PM, Brendan O'Donoghue <brendan@seatscouts.com> wrote:

I just sent you a meeting invite. I’ve also included everything below that you’ll need to do to
get your account setup on our system so feel free to start getting some of that stuff done prior
to our call on Thursday.

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-66 SS56633
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page69 of 294

From: Jeff Alter jeff@ m

Subject: Event Watcher
Date: June 12, 2018 at 1:28 PM
To: brendan@seatscouts.com

Hey Brendan,

Just received the email about the Event Watcher pricing. To be honest, I do not like this product as much as the original Seatscouts
auto pricer. Will this no longer be an option?

Not to sound lazy, but not having the pricing automatically push to the POS is a HUGE difference. The biggest selling point of the auto
pricing tool was to effectively catch the upswings in markets and that is no longer possible if we have to manually push pricing to the
POS. This is also an unmanageable task over 24 hours.

We are seeing way more of our rules hit floors using Event Watcher, whereas before we were seeming to flow better with market
changes. I’m unsure of how many rules we have at this point, but at the $99/mo, I’d be ok with sticking it out a bit longer while
Seatscouts awaits the trial outcomes. However, I do not think we can continue past that pricing.

We are definitely on board with Seatscouts, and hoping for the best in regards to future use, but I hope you can understand my
concerns. Please feel free to contact me at my cell 3 if needed. Look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks Brendan.

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-67 SS56593
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page70 of 294

From: Michael
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:09 AM EDT
To: Lauren Gainor
Subject: Re: Info / Clarification on Rules

Hi
I responded last week with a email stating to stop
My service at this time. Can you please confirm back to me on this.
I’m hoping the injunction on the command center gets lifted in
Short time.

Thanks
Michael Gamburg

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 17, 2018, at 5:52 PM, Lauren Gainor <lauren@seatscouts.com> wrote:

Hello Mike - If you have events say for example in June, and let’s say you created the rule in
April…you are running an active rule in April, May as well as June. You would get charged
each month the active rule is running. So once in April, once in May and then once in June.

If your new bill period started and you have active rules running that means that you
previously created rules for events with dates further out.

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Kind Regards,

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Apr 17, 2018, at 4:17 PM, Michael < > wrote:

Hi Lauren

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-68 SS76265
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page71 of 294

You create a rule, then you deactivate it….then lets say 3 months later you
activate the rule again. This counts as one rule only. All those months in
between do not count.

Each month you have an active rule running you do get charged for that rule (I
apologize, I relayed incorrect info to you on our call).

An example of this is, lets say you have an event in January and decide to
create/ run your rule now (in November), you would get charged
each month that rule runs.

Also, if you find that you are slightly over your pricing tier (say by just a few rules), we
can offer a partial refund.

Please feel free to reach out with any questions. If a phone call is easier let me know,
happy to talk the through with you.

Kind Regards,

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Nov 30, 2017, at 1:52 PM, Lauren Gainor <lauren@seatscouts.com> wrote:

Hey Mike - It was nice speaking with you earlier today.

I have relayed your questions / concerns to Drew & Brendan regarding rule cout
and am just awaiting a response from the them.

In the meantime, I wanted to send you the mapping directions, should you
need it:

You can map events to Stubhub now yourself so you dont have to wait for us to
reach out to Skybox.
Click on a ticket listing as if you were creating a rule and you will now see this
page:

https://www.screencast.com/t/qGwztqRBL

Simply add the correct Stubhub url and click submit and you should be good to
go!

Please let us know if you have any issues.

Kind Regards,

Confidential--Attorney's Eyes Only

A-69 SS76268
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page72 of 294

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Jun 12, 2018, at 10:48 AM, Nick Key <nick@ > wrote:

Hi Lauren!

What is going to be happening at the end of the free trial? How much is it? Is there any
movement on the auto-pricer?

Thanks!
Nick Key
ᐧ

NICK KEY

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:48 AM, Lauren Gainor <lauren@seatscouts.com> wrote:
Yes, I will call you shortly.
Kind Regards,

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On May 14, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Nick Key <nick@ > wrote:

Confidential-Attorney's Eyes Only

A-70 SS145494
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page73 of 294

Lauren,

Give me a call when you get a chance about the Event Watcher. I am not sure what
this product is and how it works.

Thanks!
Nick Key
ᐧ

NICK KEY

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 8:28 AM, Nick Key <nick@ > wrote:
Hey Lauren!

So to be clear we wont have access to the seat scouts pricing at all until further
notice. Is that correct? Do you think there is a time frame of the court decision to
release them?

So sorry to hear about that decision. We really enjoy Seat scouts and are looking
forward to the updates and for the ability to buy those again!

Thanks!
Nick Key

NICK KEY

Confidential-Attorney's Eyes Only

A-71 SS145495
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page74 of 294

From: Freddy Feliciano f.feliciano

Subject: RE: Event Watcher
Date: August 13, 2018 at 9:00 AM
To: Lauren Gainor lauren@seatscouts.com
Cc: Brendan O'Donoghue brendan@seatscouts.com

Hi Lauren,

Hope all is well. I can see some exci5ng things are happening with seat scouts, however I have
not used the product since it was previously an auto-pricer, which is most of what is convenient
for me at this 5me.

That said, I was recently charged and would like to request a refund since I am not using the
service. I hope things con5nue to progress with Seat scouts and perhaps I will have some more
availability in the future to use the soCware.

P.S. – I did try to remove my payment method, however there is no way to do this or suspend /
cancel services (that I no5ced, last I logged in).

Thanks,

Freddy

From: Lauren Gainor

Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 9:05 AM
To: Freddy Feliciano
Cc: Brendan O'Donoghue
Subject: Event Watcher

Hey Freddy,

I just wanted to reach out as I no5ced that your company has not been using Event Watcher
recently. Can you let me know why that is?
Kind Regards,

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-

3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

Confidential-Attorney's Eyes Only

A-72 SS162958
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page75 of 294

From: Lauren Gainor lauren@seatscouts.com

Subject: Re: Event Watcher
Date: August 14, 2018 at 5:48 PM
To: spacecitytickets s

Greetings Joel - For the time being we will continue on with our current offering of Event Watcher. Event Watcher does not
include auto pricing.

Let me know if want to catch up anything. I’m happy to give you a call.

Kind Regards,

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com

Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Aug 14, 2018, at 11:05 AM, spacecitytickets < wrote:

Thanks Lauren.

Whatever happened with the lawsuit? Are you guys able to implement the autoprocer again or. Is it back to manual
pricing with eventwatcher?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Lauren Gainor <lauren@seatscouts.com>
Date: 8/14/18 9:53 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: Joel El-Moussa <spacecitytickets
Cc: Brendan O'Donoghue <brendan@seatscouts.com>
Subject: Re: Event Watcher

Hello Joel - Since you are no longer using Event Watcher, we will be able to issue you a refund and will go ahead and
cancel your account.

Kind Regards,

Lauren Gainor
Director of Client Services at Seat Scouts

Direct 919-670-3211 Phone 919-670-3569 Email lauren@seatscouts.com

Website http://www.seatscouts.com/

Automate Your Everyday

On Aug 14, 2018, at 10:49 AM, Joel El-Moussa <spacecitytickets@g wrote:

Hi Lauren,

Confidential-Attorney's Eyes Only

A-73 SS162961
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page76 of 294

attorn
ey
client
privile
ge

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Golden Stub Tickets" >

Subject: RE: Your receipt from Seat Scouts #2105-9686
Date: July 19, 2018 at 3:29:05 PM EDT
To: "'Lauren Gainor'" <lauren@seatscouts.com>, "Golden Stub Tickets"
>

Thanks Lauren – I know the issue essentially has been a result of lawsuits and the like, but the service I
paid for was a service that auto‐updated my price. A service that requires me to login multiple times a 
day to “push” new prices is not what I’m looking for.

From: Lauren Gainor [mailto:lauren@seatscouts.com]

Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 9:32 AM
To: Golden Stub Tickets
Subject: Re: Your receipt from Seat Scouts #2105-9686

Hello - Here is a link to the pricing. I’ve copied / pasted the tiers into this email as well. If you
have any questions I’m happy to call you and discuss.

https://seatscouts.com/pricing/

Event Watcher Pricing Tiers

<150 Rules – $199
<500 Rules – $295
<1,250 Rules – $495
<2,500 Rules – $695
<5,000 Rules – $995
<6,250 Rules – $1,495
<7,500 Rules – $1,995
<8,750 Rules – $2,495
<10,000 Rules – $2,995
<12,500 Rules – $3,495

Confidential-Attorney's Eyes Only

A-74 SS162954
 Case Case
1:17-cv-08627-SHS-SN
19-440, Document 76,
Document
08/19/2019,
149-92636358,
Filed 06/15/18
Page77 of
Page
294 1 of 1

Thursday, Jun 14, 2:47 PM

[Seat Scouts] Joshua : 'Cancellation'

by Joshua | notifications@intercom-mail.com

Write ABOVE to reply to USER View conversation

Hi Drew,

I've decided to cancel my Seat Scouts account.

I have been moving my listings over to Tradedesk and at the moment am

not using any autopricer. My experience with Command Center was great,
but the new product didn't allow me to put my sales on auto-pilot.

It's been a pleasure working with you and your team and I'd be open to
working together again in the future.

Best regards,

Josh Bernstein

Joshua at Joshua Bernstein on 14 Jun, 2:47pm

EMAIL

SIGNED UP 7 months ago Toronto, Canada

This email was sent from Intercom You can change your notification settings here

A-75
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page78 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

2   as the analytical status bars, the data

3   they gave us for watching the trends on

4   the markets, and I guess the average price

5   tracking, quantity tracking, low price

6   tracking.

7       Q     And was that the process ‐‐ was

8   the pricing part called Command Center?

9 MR. MELMAN:  Objection.

10       A     Yes.

11       Q     Did there come a time when

12   Command Center no longer became available

13   to you?

14       A     Yes.  Earlier this year we

15   received notice regarding Command Center

16   no longer being available, I guess, in its

17   current form.

18       Q     And were you able to use Command

19   Center after that, after that notice?

20       A     No.

21       Q     In its place what became

22   available to you?

23       A     We had the Event Watcher given

24   to us as the option to be available.

25       Q     Is the functionality of Event
Page 7

A-76
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page79 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   Watcher the same as that that was in

3   Command Center?

4 MR. MELMAN:   Objection to the

5       form.

6       A     There are some similar

7   capabilities as far as what data it gives

8   us regarding quantities, average price,

9   minimum prices, and then there are some

10   advanced features, like they developed

11   their app feature recently.  I think there

12   are more features now than there were.

13   However, we are not able to, what you say,

14   automate the prices.  In order to do that

15   we have to manually update the prices on

16   our end.

17 MR. MELMAN:   I am going to have

18       to move to strike the last part of the

19       answer as nonresponsive.

20       Q     Could you explain what the

21   difference is between an Auto Pricer and
Page 8

A-77
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page80 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

22   the process that you just described that

23   you used with Event Watcher?

24       A     Sure ‐‐

25 MR. MELMAN:   Could you read

1 R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2       that back?  Before the witness answers

3       can I have that read back?

4 [Whereupon, the requested

5       portion of the record was read back by

6       the Court Reporter.]

7 MR. MELMAN:   Objection to the

8       form.

9       Q     Now you could go ahead an

10   answer.

11       A     Sure.  So prior to the ‐‐ with

12   Seat Scouts, I guess it was automated in

13   terms of it would automatically push the

14   price over to the exchanges that we are

15   using every so often depending on the

16   criteria that was set up, how the in turn

17   events were.  With Event Watcher it's no
Page 9

A-78
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page81 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

18   longer ‐‐ how you say ‐‐ automatically

19   updating the price.  If we have to on our

20   end, we decide how we want to update the

21   price and manually press the update price

22   button.

23       Q     After that changeover to Event

24   Watcher did you contact Seat Scouts to

25   discuss that process?

1 R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2       A     Yes.  I reached out to Brendan

3   at Scouts at first to understand kind of

4   what was going on as far as why Seat

5   Scouts no longer was to offer that service

6   and to discuss the new service offered

7   which was ‐‐ that was Event Watcher.  In

8   specifically I asked Brendan how often

9   prices were updated prior to the change

10   and he informed me, you know, depending on

11   the event and how the time was ‐‐ it's

12   about five minutes, and I asked him are

13   our companies that use ‐‐ I guess that use
Page 10

A-79
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page82 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

14   Seat Scouts ‐‐ that formally use Seat

15   Scouts and now use Event Watcher, have you

16   heard of them trying to automate, and

17   Brendan told me that he could not give me

18   any information about how to automate the

19   process, and at that point he decided that

20   we would let the legal process play out

21   and we would internally put together a

22   protocol which we priced based on what was

23   given to us through Event Watcher, meaning

24   manually push a button every so often, and

25   that's kind of where things stand, but it

10

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   was not helpful in giving us information

3   regarding automating the price.  Basically

4   it was a ‐‐ they didn't want anything to

5   do with that, so...

6 MR. MELMAN:   I'm going to move

7       to strike as nonresponsive to the

8       question and also as rank hearsay.

9 MR. HEISENBERG:   Let's mark as
Page 11

A-80
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page83 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

2   following is to schedule a call with you.

3   Does it refresh your recollection as to

4   when you had a discussion with Seat Scouts

5   about your inquiry?

6       A     As far as the date goes?

7       Q     Yes.

8       A     Oh, let's take a look.  I mean,

9   if I had to guess by the e‐mail we

10   probably connected that day or the next

11   day.

12       Q     Could you again recall and

13   convey what the communication was between

14   you and Mr. O'Donoghue on that call?

15 MR. MELMAN:   Objection to the

16       form.

17       Q     You could go ahead and answer.

18       A     So initially there was a

19   conversation about the e‐mail we received

20   from Drew regarding Seat Scouts no longer

21   being available in ut current form and

22   Event Watcher more or less taking its

23   place.  We reviewed what was going on as

24   far as what product was going to be

25   available versus not, and then after that
Page 14

A-81
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page84 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

13

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   it just got ‐‐ I asked the question, are

3   other brokers who are on ‐‐ who were on

4   Seat Scouts now on Event Watcher, are they

5   using tools to automate their pricing and

6   that's when Brendan said he cannot talk

7   about auto pricing or how you go about

8   setting that up.  The conversation simply

9   dropped from there and after that we

10   decided that we wouldn't move forward on

11   that on our own and we wanted to see how

12   this would play out in the Courts.  In

13   that way we set up the protocol as far as

14   how often we should manually update prices

15   on our end.

16       Q     That protocol was manual?  How

17   is it done?

18 MR. MELMAN:   Objection.

19       Leading, mischaracterizes the witness'

20       testimony, and form.

21       Q     You could go ahead an answer.
Page 15

A-82
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page85 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

22       A     So we would simply log into

23   Event Watcher and there is a button that

24   allows you to update your prices.  It's

25   similar to in our POS system, we can

14

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   update prices based on pressing the

3   buttons and setting those prices.  That's

4   how you do manually.  It's more or less

5   the same.

6       Q     Are you still using that system

7   presently?

8       A     Correct.

9       Q     How Do the costs of Event

10   Watcher compare to those that you were

11   paying for Command Center?

12       A     How did the cost, did you say?

13       Q     Yes.

14 MR. MELMAN:   Objection to the

15       form.

16       A     There was a comparable price.

17   However, because they no longer could
Page 16

A-83
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page86 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

18   offer the automated feature they brought

19   down the price.  I don't recall exactly

20   the percentage, but I know it was a

21   discounted price.

22       Q     If Event Watcher were to be shut

23   down, would that cause any hardship to

24   you?

25       A     Yes, definitely.  Not only with

15

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   ‐‐ not only helps us how organized in

3   certain markets, but I think primarily

4   it's the data gathered for us on looking

5   at supply and where markets are trending,

6   where average prices are going, where

7   minimum prices are going, and how we

8   relate that to the teams that we work with

9   in order to provide more value to them and

10   show, you know, that we are good partners

11   and we want to help them see where the

12   markets are going.  That would definitely

13   hurt our business.
Page 17

A-84
 Case 19-440, Document 76, 08/19/2019, 2636358, Page87 of 294

RyanColich_Rough

14       Q     That's the analytics and market

15   viewer components of Event Watcher that

16   you were just describing?

17 MR. MELMAN:   Objection.

18       Leading.

19       Q     You can go ahead and answer.

20       A     Correct.  So we don't submit

21   just as ‐‐ throughout the market there's a

22   pricing tool but it's a lot more.  How I

23   would get things right now are brokers a

24   lot of times are just commodities.  Teams

25   can choose who, what they want to work

16

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   with.  Having this software and theses

3   capabilities, I guess this technology

4   is ‐‐ in order to show them where markets

5   are trending at any given time how many

6   tickets are in the market, where was that

7   market six months ago, what was that

8   average price, that's a very powerful tool

9   in helping them better understand the
Page 18

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RyanColich_Rough

10   secondary market and where their events

11   are heading.

12       Q     Are you familiar with a product

13   called GoPricer?

14       A     Yes, I am.

15       Q     How are you familiar with it?

16       A     So a few years back we were

17   introduced to the programmer, I guess, the

18   founder of the company by Eric Vasos, and

19   he wanted us to, I guess, learn about the

20   product and give it a trial to see if it

21   might be something that would benefit us.

22       Q     In the course of that trial did

23   you become familiar with GoPricer's

24   features or the way it operated?

25       A     Mildly, I would say.  I would

17

1        R. COLICH * ROUGH DRAFT *

2   say mildly.  We played around with it for

3   a period of time, you know, but determined

4   at the end that the ‐‐ as far as setting

5   up rules and the stressors, it was too
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1 MR. MELMAN: Correct.

2 THE COURT: Okay. All right. So the fact that a

3 preliminary injunction was issued won't be referred to. But I

4 do agree with Mr. Melman as to how the testimony can be brought

5 up.

6 Now, it seems to me that the finding of contempt by

7 this Court is relevant to Broker Genius's need, if they are

8 going to end up proving that misappropriation claim to show bad

9 faith. And it seems to me that for that reason they should be

10 allowed to refer to it. But simply to educe the fact that that

11 was a determination, not to have a lot of questioning about

12 what went into that, all right? That, it seems to me, that

13 that's the best resolution for number three. No reference to

14 the preliminary injunction, a very short reference to the

15 finding of contempt against the defendants here.

16 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor?

17 THE COURT: Yes.

18 MR. HEISENBERG: My understanding of your earlier

19 decision about misappropriation was that the bad faith had to

20 be evidenced at the time of taking of the property. So that

21 would tie the bad-faith element back to May of 2016 under their

22 theory. That's the period in which the property was

23 misappropriated. The acts of two years later do not bear on

24 the question of bad faith and misappropriation. At that point

25 any misappropriation has already occurred, and it doesn't go to

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1 the issue of -- as I believe the Court had defined the issue of

2 bad faith in the motion to dismiss, you had referenced an

3 allegation of bad faith in entering into a contract to get

4 property would be sufficient bad faith to sustain the claim.

5 But here we're talking about an act that occurred two

6 years later, that as they have already said by initiating a

7 lawsuit, the property at that point has already been

8 transferred and so the bad faith, it would simply go --

9 THE COURT: I understand your point.

10 Where is that in your brief? Because I'm not sure I

11 focused on that point. Do you have cases in your brief

12 somewhere on that point?

13 MR. HEISENBERG: I don't know if I have them handy

14 here.

15 THE COURT: No, no, I don't mean the cases. Show me

16 in your brief where you raised this point.

17 MR. HEISENBERG: Well, our brief broadly covered the

18 question of any injunction and contempt being irrelevant

19 because they didn't bear on questions going to the issues of

20 fact. So we raised the 401, 402, 403 issue.

21 Clearly the contempt is the broadest of 403 issues.

22 It's one thing to let the jury not know that the Court has made

23 some findings, but a finding by the Court that they are

24 provided saying that a party has been in contempt of an

25 injunction essentially gives them, both on the slimmest of

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1 reads of any relevance here.

2 THE COURT: All right. I understand.

3 Let me hear from Broker Genius.

4 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, counsel is again conflating

5 breach of contract and misappropriation. There is no law to

6 cite in support that the bad faith had to have occurred at the

7 time of the entering of the contract. The bad faith is at the

8 misappropriation. And there's been misappropriation

9 throughout, from the genesis of Command Center, and certainly

10 when defendants launched what we've called the 2018 Event

11 Watcher, which went directly towards the Court's finding of

12 contempt. In other words, the misappropriation of Broker

13 Genius's technology, investment, skill, and labor, in the face

14 of a court order precluding them from doing so, that directly

15 goes to bad faith.

16 THE COURT: All right. It seems to me that that's

17 right. Let me do some additional thinking about that. And if

18 the parties want to supply cases, they can file citations

19 tonight.

20 But as of now, I think that's right. The

21 misappropriation took place when Event Watcher was taken off of

22 Command Center -- or rather the automatic pricing function was

23 taken off of what had been Command Center as a fact, and simply

24 separated, even though Event Watcher, with is automatic

25 function taken off, was Command Center. So that was done after

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1 the preliminary injunction was issued. And that was an

2 independent misappropriation, it seems to me.

3 Seat Scouts, if you want to send me anything that

4 supports your theory, you can do that tonight.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: Okay. But I'm not sure I understand

6 the precise point your Honor is making about misappropriation

7 being a separate act by taking something away from the product.

8 THE COURT: No, no, I'm sorry. I was thinking aloud.

9 What they were doing was -- what Seat Scouts was doing

10 was continuing to sell what I found to be the original enjoined

11 product, that's what I'm saying, back in August or whatever

12 month the contempt order was issued.

13 MR. HEISENBERG: Okay. We understand that.

14 What I'm looking at, your Honor, is from your May 14

15 decision allowing that claim to go forward.

16 THE COURT: That's on the motion to dismiss?

17 MR. HEISENBERG: Motion to dismiss, yes.

18 And there you say that bad faith can be established by

19 fraud or deception or an abuse of fiduciary confidential

20 relationship in order to obtain the property in the first

21 place. And then you write: Bad faith can include signing up

22 for a competitor's service under false pretenses to gain access

23 to information that is the party's stock and trade.

24 So their very claim and your decision focused on the

25 May 2016 time period of how that property was -- by their own

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1 theory, that that's the point in time in which this information

2 was misappropriated. The fact that it may have continued on

3 goes perhaps to the quantum of damage, but an issue of contempt

4 doesn't create a separate issue of bad faith. That bad faith

5 has to be tied to the misappropriation, which they themselves

6 say occurred in May of 2016.

7 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, certainly in our complaint we

8 couldn't have anticipated that defendants would be in violation

9 of a court order enjoining them from taking down the Command

10 Center products, so it wasn't pled. But even the portion that

11 counsel read from your Honor's opinion only says that bad faith

12 can be proven through such acts.

13 The fact that Seat Scouts launched, as the Court said,

14 a mirror image, a doppelganger, of Command Center, in itself

15 shows --

16 THE COURT: Did I use that word? Did I use

17 "doppelganger"? It's a good word.

18 MR. MELMAN: Yes, your Honor, you did, because it's

19 true.

20 The fact that they did that, in violation of the

21 injunction, constitutes bad faith.

22 THE COURT: I'm going to maintain my stated position;

23 but, again, I'll look at it. I understand your point. I want

24 to think about it, Mr. Heisenberg. I'll look at anything you

25 want me to.

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1 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes.

2 THE COURT: Mr. Melman, if that was the date for

3 disclosure of witnesses and Mr. Heisenberg disclosed Cobb on

4 that date, what is your argument?

5 MR. MELMAN: Mr. Cobb was certainly not identified in

6 response to our other interrogatories asking for an

7 identification of trial witnesses which we served on the

8 defendants.

9 THE COURT: When?

10 MR. MELMAN: I'll try to bring up a copy --

11 THE COURT: Here is what I'm driving at. Just because

12 somebody is listed in that Rule 26 disclosure doesn't tell the

13 other side that they are going to be a trial witness.

14 I think what you are complaining about on Cobb is

15 really you didn't know he was going to be a trial witness until

16 December 3, and that is late. Mr. Heisenberg says that's the

17 day that the Court ordered disclosure of trial witnesses. If

18 that's so, tell me what your argument is.

19 MR. MELMAN: Again, we have an early earlier

20 interrogatory, before the Court set a deadline, asking for --

21 that's interrogatory No. 15. It was served on November of

22 2017, November 13, 2017, where we asked --

23 THE COURT: They did not disclose him then?

24 MR. MELMAN: No, they did not. Nor did they ever make

25 him available for deposition in this case.

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1 THE COURT: I take it because he wasn't on your radar

2 except in the Rule 26(a) disclosures at the commencement of the

3 case, he wasn't on the radar.

4 MR. MELMAN: Correct. He wasn't identified in the

5 interrogatories I just referenced.

6 THE COURT: In other words, Mr. Heisenberg, you didn't

7 notify them that Cobb was going to be a trial witness until

8 after fact discovery had closed in October.

9 MR. HEISENBERG: No, your Honor. Again, he was

10 disclosed right at the earliest point. He was referenced

11 during my cross-examination of Mr. Sherman during the

12 preliminary injunction hearing.

13 THE COURT: He is referenced. What does that mean?

14 MR. HEISENBERG: As a witness with information about

15 the lawsuit. They have had a year in which to pursue that.

16 And I believe in response to the interrogatory response, I'm

17 guessing that we would have said that we will disclose

18 witnesses as the Court orders, which is that we have a

19 Court-ordered schedule saying disclose your witnesses.

20 THE COURT: Unless somebody has an opportunity to

21 depose somebody, this isn't going to be trial by ambush. If

22 you were lying low in the swamp grass until December 3 and then

23 saying, OK, that's the date to disclose our trial witnesses, we

24 are going to pick Cobb's head up from the swamp grass and have

25 him stand up, that doesn't work. You made an argument in your

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1 papers that he was referenced throughout the preliminary

2 injunction. I am not saying our search is 100 percent

3 accurate, but a controlled find on the preliminary injunction

4 hearing did not yield any results for C-o-b-b.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: Perhaps it was misspelled, and I'll

6 look it up, but I specifically remember asking Mr. Sherman

7 about when he disclosed that he was going to sue Seat Scouts,

8 and he referenced having the discussion with Mr. Cobb on

9 October 12, during a game at Madison Square Garden.

10 THE COURT: That is what you are telling me puts the

11 other side on notice that Cobb is going to be a trial witness?

12 MR. HEISENBERG: That, and the fact that we disclosed

13 him on a schedule saying he has knowledge about this lawsuit --

14 THE COURT: You are talking about the 26(a)

15 disclosures at the beginning of the case?

16 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes.

17 THE COURT: How many people -- you may not know. How

18 many people were listed?

19 MR. HEISENBERG: Roughly, from guesstimating, probably

20 about 10.

21 THE COURT: Really?

22 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes.

23 THE COURT: Mr. Melman, I thought, like any lawyer,

24 there would be 50 people listed.

25 MR. MELMAN: I'm counting at least 14 in their 26(a)

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1 initial disclosures. We also searched for Mr. Cobb, couldn't

2 find him referenced in the preliminary injunction.

3 THE COURT: You did that as well.

4 MR. MELMAN: We couldn't find him and, again, I'm

5 looking at defendants' response to interrogatory No. 15 where

6 we asked defendants to identify all witnesses that you intend

7 to call to provide testimony in this action and describe the

8 specificity of the complete subject matter of their proposed

9 testimony.

10 THE COURT: When is that?

11 MR. MELMAN: That was served on November 13, 2017.

12 The defendants' response following their objections stated that

13 they reserve the right to amend this response as discovery

14 progresses. They certainly could have amended it during the

15 discovery period to allow us the opportunity to depose

16 Mr. Cobb.

17 THE COURT: I understand.

18 The transcript of December 5, 2017 in this case, at

19 page 29 and 30 I say: No one will be a witness unless you give

20 the other party an opportunity to depose that person.

21 Mr. Heisenberg, I take it your position is that 26(a)

22 disclosure is that opportunity to depose.

23 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes. They had a full year.

24 THE COURT: I'm excluding Cobb. We are not going to

25 do trial by blindsiding. That 26(a) disclosure is not adequate

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1 THE COURT: In other words, let me see if I have it.

2 The breach of contract is that under the terms of use -- and I

3 understand there's a separate issue as to whether they agreed

4 to the terms of use. I don't know whether you are going to

5 raise that or not, but that's off to the side. Under the terms

6 of use, he's forbidden from deriving a product from AutoPricer

7 V3.

8 What you're saying is you want to show that he didn't

9 derive Command Center and Event Watcher from AutoPricer V3, he

10 stole it from Stage Front or SeatMetrics. No, that was the

11 wrong way to phrase it. He didn't steal it. It was publicly

12 available; whether he had the right to do it is totally

13 separate. It was he had -- let me rephrase it. He didn't

14 derive it from AutoPricer. If anything, he derived it from

15 Stage Front and SeatMetrics. Is that it?

16 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, your Honor.

17 The traceability analysis that we believe you, in your

18 opinion, said had to be directly and immediately derived from

19 the -- and the language in the contract is the site, the apps,

20 or the contents. So, in other words, the source of it has to

21 be the May 2016 use of the product.

22 Clearly if he was using a product or several products,

23 it turns out, in 2015 that had those exact same components,

24 then the source of his knowledge, if it's not obvious, if it

25 needs a source, would be clearly demonstrated in the documents

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1 Mr. Gainor did. So the point is that Broker Genius should

2 certainly be entitled to, on rebuttal, point out that both

3 Stage Front and SeatMetrics were customers of Broker Genius.

4 THE COURT: Do you disagree with that, Mr. Heisenberg?

5 MR. HEISENBERG: I do. Because the issue is not the

6 obviousness that Mr. Melman is suggesting. The issue is he

7 actually used this product, so we don't have to say, Well,

8 someone else figured it out, so it was obvious. Because as

9 your Honor has pointed out numerous times, we're talking about

10 derivation. And if he's clearly used a product with these

11 features in 2015, it doesn't matter whether Stage Front got it

12 on their own, whether they were struck by a bolt of lightening

13 and had a eureka moment or where they got it from --

14 THE COURT: I'm going to let -- if that's what Broker

15 Genius wants to do, I'm going to let them question. I don't

16 know that it's in their interest to do that, but if that's what

17 they want to do, they can try to educe evidence on that.

18 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, the product that Stage Front

19 used was not Broker Genius's AutoPricer Version 3. To the

20 extent I misspoke, I'd like to clarify. It was a prior Broker

21 Genius product. It was Version 1. That was the Stage Front

22 product that they were using as a customer of Broker Genius.

23 And I also want to clarify --

24 THE COURT: Who knows if the jury will pick up on

25 that, but, all right, I understand what you're saying.

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1 MR. MELMAN: And also just to make sure it's clear,

2 Broker Genius nowhere has said -- nor does it say -- that the

3 two products are the same. We've only pointed out that based

4 on the screenshots, a screenshot of the Stage Front product

5 appears similar.

6 THE COURT: I'm going to let you do that questioning,

7 if that's what you're asking to do. I'll obviously listen as

8 the evidence comes in. But if -- as you say, if that's what

9 they are doing, then that's what you can do.

10 Danny Panzer email. Here's Danny Panzer.

11 Seat Scouts wants me to exclude an email from Danny

12 Panzer to Gainor. So if I have it correctly, I have a document

13 Bates stamped SS172241 and SS172242.

14 Broker Genius, are you intending to offer -- do you

15 wish to offer the email that's the first in the email worm?

16 MR. MELMAN: Yes, your Honor, we do intend --

17 THE COURT: That is the email from Panzer to Gainor;

18 is that right?

19 MR. MELMAN: Yes, your Honor, we do intend to --

20 THE COURT: And Panzer is with SeatMetrics, right?

21 MR. MELMAN: Yes.

22 THE COURT: So why isn't that an out-of-court

23 statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted, that

24 is, Looks like you built that pretty quickly, in other words,

25 inferring that Gainor stole it from Seat Scouts AutoPricer. In

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1 THE COURT: I assure you that breach of contract that

2 doesn't have to be privately owned, the contract says, you

3 can't derive something from the act, the code, whatever it may

4 be, the site, and you have agreed to that. Then you can't

5 derive that from whatever it is you have agreed not to derive

6 it from. It doesn't have to belong to you. The

7 misappropriation claim is different.

8 MR. HEISENBERG: Just to point the Court to the

9 direction, Crye v. Duro decision by the Second Circuit and also

10 the district court opinion by Judge Cote where she addresses --

11 THE COURT: As a matter of fact, I have that here.

12 Let me get it out for you.

13 MR. HEISENBERG: What we believe the reading of that,

14 and I think the Second Circuit agrees, is that a provision in a

15 license agreement that encompasses nonproprietary information

16 then just becomes a covenant not to compete.

17 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I know I read Crye. I don't

18 seem to have it in front of me.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: In that case it was a licensing

20 agreement. The license, after its term expired, said: You

21 will not make anything similar to our pattern. And Judge Cote

22 ruled, and the Second Circuit affirmed her, that that becomes a

23 covenant not to compete because you are not precluding the

24 company from simply doing what is proprietary technology, or in

25 that case it was IP, but you're expanding into anything

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1 similar. And because it does not protect a proprietary

2 technology of the company, you're essentially saying everyone

3 else in the world can do this, but you cannot, and that's a

4 covenant not to compete. It's not detecting any legitimate

5 interest of the business.

6 THE COURT: I will look at that case, but I call that

7 a contract.

8 MR. HEISENBERG: It was a license contract as well in

9 Crye v. Duro. The Court and the Second Circuit said, when you

10 expand beyond your own intellectual property --

11 THE COURT: I will look at that. That sounds like a

12 jury charge issue.

13 MR. HEISENBERG: It is.

14 On misappropriation, I think we have a very basic

15 disagreement on whether or not that also has to be proprietary.

16 We cited to you the Schroeder decision which I think is the

17 last or latest statement by the New York courts on it, First

18 Department, Schroeder v. Pinterest, in footnote 11.

19 It is the last thing in the case. They say: Like

20 every other misappropriation theory, it has to be something

21 that is not in the public domain. If it is not proprietary,

22 then you cannot misappropriate it. Some of the other decisions

23 that we talked about talk about having the misappropriation has

24 to be --

25 THE COURT: I see that. Like the other

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1 misappropriation causes of action, this claim cannot be

2 premised upon misappropriation of publicly available

3 information.

4 MR. HEISENBERG: Correct. That ties in as well with

5 the Lopresti case. The one that becomes very on point is the

6 decision in Demetriades. It is cited in that footnote.

7 THE COURT: Demetriades v. Kaufmann, 698 F.Supp. 521.

8 MR. HEISENBERG: Correct. There it was a model home

9 builder who claimed that they put a lot of time and effort and

10 labor in that claim here into developing a particular molding,

11 I think it was, on a house. The Court said: You cannot have a

12 misappropriation claim because you are selling that house to

13 people and it goes into the public domain. Once it's in the

14 public domain you can't claim someone misappropriated it from

15 you.

16 And so the argument here on the jury instructions is

17 very basic. That is, the way they interpret this strand of

18 misappropriation, merely them showing that they have worked a

19 lot on this, is enough for that claim to exist where we think

20 the law is quite clear, both in New York and in the other

21 decision, that once it's not a proprietary interest, you don't

22 have a misappropriation claim. It has to be something that you

23 have a property interest in.

24 THE COURT: On my first reading and my second reading

25 of these cases, I disagree with you. I'll go back. I'll take

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1 a look at it again. This is a jury issue.

2 My own personal view, as I said earlier in this

3 session, is that this case really is a breach of contract case,

4 much more so than a misappropriation case. We will see what

5 the evidence shows.

6 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, on the Demetriades case, the

7 facts in that case are readily distinguishable. In that case

8 the title to the property actually passed. There is no

9 contention here that title Auto Price's version 3 was

10 transferred from Broker Genius.

11 THE COURT: I am going to go back and read all of

12 these cases and it will be for the jury charge.

13 Does that handle everything?

14 I will see everybody tomorrow. You can come whenever

15 you would like. I have another matter at 9:30, but it will be

16 over by 10. We will commence this trial then.

17 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, again, at my peril, the

18 question about the patent, I know you have allowed us to show

19 the disclosures in the patent. The question is, that would

20 raise in the jury's mind a question of, did they get this

21 patent? I assume they got it patented because we would hear it

22 if they didn't. Can we at least inform them that no patent has

23 been issued on this?

24 THE COURT: Mr. Melman.

25 MR. MELMAN: I think that went directly to your

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1 MS. MUÑOZ: I move to admit PX-3 into evidence.

2 MR. HEISENBERG: No objection.

3 THE COURT: PX-3 admitted.

4 (Plaintiff's Exhibit 3 received in evidence)

5 BY MS. MUÑOZ:

6 Q. What, if any, terms of use were in effect in May 2016 when

7 Mr. Gainor became a Broker Genius customer?

8 A. The terms of use that were updated here as of May of 2015.

9 Q. That's PX-3; correct?

10 A. Yes, PX-3.

11 Q. And where did Broker Genius get the terms of use?

12 A. We consulted with our lawyer, who did contracts and terms

13 of use. And we told -- the attorney and ourselves collaborated

14 on what we wanted to try to accomplish and protect ourselves

15 with. And then they ultimately created and drafted our terms

16 of use.

17 Q. Why did Broker Genius need terms of use?

18 A. So I realized very early on that the access that I was

19 going to give to ticket brokers, if they could learn all of the

20 ways that the technology worked and they can see all of the

21 different features, I needed to have protection that they

22 weren't going to just try to create a copycat product. So I

23 wanted to make sure that they agreed not to create a derivative

24 product by my giving access to their technology, among other

25 things that we also required to protect ourselves.

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1 Q. Can you take a look at the first page of PX-3 on the

2 monitor. And do you see the highlighted text where it says:

3 "You may not transfer or sell access to your account." Do you

4 see that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And what do you understand that language to mean?

7 A. That a user or Broker Genius, somebody that has an account,

8 can't give their credentials to somebody else to, let's say,

9 develop technology or to learn all of our secrets and how our

10 technology works; and they also couldn't sell their account to

11 somebody else that didn't agree and become a Broker Genius

12 customer on their own.

13 MS. MUÑOZ: Can we look at the third page of PX-3,

14 Bates numbers ending in 4614.

15 Q. And if you can look at the next text that's highlighted

16 there, it says: "We grant you a limited, conditional, no-cost,

17 nonexclusive, nontransferable, nonsublicensable license to view

18 or use this site or apps and its content as permitted by these

19 terms. As a condition precedent, you agree that you will not."

20 What do you understand that language to mean?

21 A. That we are granting the user a license and permission to

22 use our technology as long as the user agrees to the following.

23 Q. And further down you'll see the language "modify, adapt,

24 sublicense, translate, sell, reverse engineer, decompile or

25 disassemble any portion of the site or apps or otherwise

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1 attempt to derive any source code or underlying ideas or

2 algorithms or any part of the site or apps." Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And what do you understand that language to mean?

5 A. That a user is agreeing that they will not steal anything

6 from Broker Genius, whether that is the ideas themselves, which

7 are the most core piece of our technology is the way that the

8 technology worked. The code is also something that you could

9 theoretically take, but it's not really important. What's

10 important is learning all the ideas and how they are different,

11 the different features and functionality worked, because you

12 could develop that in any hundred of different codes. So we

13 were protecting that, and that's -- that's what we are

14 protecting against.

15 MS. MUÑOZ: And can we go to the next page of PX-3.

16 Q. And this is within the same clause as we've just been

17 reading from. This language that's highlighted, it says:

18 "reproduce, modify, display, publicly perform, distribute, or

19 create derivative works of the site or apps or the content."

20 What do you understand that language to mean?

21 A. Similarly, that the user is agreeing not to make public all

22 of the information that they learn from Broker Genius; and also

23 that, again, they are agreeing not to create a derivative

24 product from Broker Genius.

25 MS. MUÑOZ: Can we have PX-15 please.

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1 know?

2 THE WITNESS: Again, I wasn't working with the sales

3 team on that at this point. But I think that the demonstration

4 was about 10 minutes and that would include questions that the

5 user or the potential customer would be asking.

6 THE COURT: It's not as if after 10 minutes everything

7 stopped, right? If there are questions, I assume your sales

8 team answered them.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 Q. In the course of those demonstrations, you did some of

11 those, correct?

12 A. I've done some demos in the past, yes.

13 Q. Mr. Ellman is the primary person who gives those

14 demonstrations?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In the course of those you would have the user go through

17 and actually create a rule using your system, do you not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Meaning as we saw from the screenshots, they would know now

20 how to pick an event on the event menu, is that right?

21 A. I don't know how extensive it was. In terms of creating --

22 taking a listing and creating the rule, that's something that

23 on many demos, demonstrations, he would do.

24 Q. And then the next step would be to figure your inventory

25 and then to select the zone, sections, row process, is that

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1 right?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. That would all happen during these demos?

4 A. Yes. The setting of a rule would happen during a lot of

5 those demonstrations.

6 Q. The last step of that process is to simply create the

7 relationship. You now have your bundle of comparables and you

8 want your pricing rule, you click yes on that and you have

9 created a rule on your system, is that right?

10 A. Again, just to be clear, we used to do screen shares. The

11 user wasn't doing any of this. Mr. Ellman was doing it on his

12 computer, and then the user would see his screen, his or her

13 screen, while he was doing the demo for them.

14 Q. So the steps of the process for creating the rule, going

15 through each of the particular components that we saw in the

16 openings, the event list, the inventory list, interacting with

17 the zone, section, row picking of comparables and the creation

18 of a rule is something that you disclosed freely to any

19 potential users without any restrictions on them to maintain

20 that as confidential, is that right?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. You also freely disclose in public forums the green

23 features that you testified on direct, do you not?

24 A. No. I'm not aware of anywhere that we put the group user

25 interface.

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1 Q. I apologize if I asked it about the group user interface.

2 I'm asking about explaining to the users how the group function

3 actually operates on your system. You do that in public, do

4 you not?

5 A. I don't recall anywhere that we put that in public.

6 Q. You mentioned that the group function allows a user to take

7 a group of tickets and only price some of them at a particular

8 point in time, is that right?

9 A. Are you talking about describing, like with words, what it

10 is?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That's actually a sales feature that you are proud of and

14 want the users or potential users to know about, is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And so the users, it is described to them that in addition

17 to the basic way of creating a rule, you also have a feature

18 that allows you to stagger out tickets by certain amount?

19 A. I am sure we talked about the basic functionality of

20 groups. I don't know how in depth we went, but we definitely

21 would have described it.

22 Q. And you recall doing that during a chat that you had with

23 potential customers in June of 2016?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in that chat you disclosed to them --

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1 handle the objections.

2 I'm telling the lawyers once again, we need to handle

3 these outside of the hearing of the jury.

4 Proceed.

5 Q. The entry at 3:06, Mr. Sherman, do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. It says -- you are describing a group function here, are

8 you not?

9 A. No. This is just generally setting a rule at this stage.

10 Q. When you write: More likely, your tickets will gradually

11 be raised from 100 to 105 to 110, etc. in that scenario?

12 A. I was looking at the first one.

13 Q. You write: Many of our clients have multiple ticket groups

14 in the same area of the stadium. One of our best features is

15 our group functionality which allows you to space out tickets

16 by a certain percent or dollar amount.

17 Am I correct, sir, that in your discussions with

18 potential customers in this chat you are describing the group

19 functionality as it exists in AutoPricer?

20 A. Yes, I'm describing some of the functionality. I'm sorry.

21 I'm describing some of what it does.

22 Q. That's the ability to stagger out tickets by a certain

23 percentage or dollar amount?

24 A. Yes. Among other things.

25 Q. That's something that you felt comfortable disclosing to

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1 the public?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. One of the other things you were asked about are cycle

4 times, meaning that the frequency with which data is pulled

5 from StubHub into your program, is that right?

6 A. It could have been.

7 THE COURT: What does cycle time mean? When new terms

8 are used, I want the jury to understand what the new terms

9 mean. What is cycle time?

10 THE WITNESS: Cycle times are for different categories

11 of events based on the proximity to the event. They would

12 recalculate and reprice themselves faster or slower. So

13 StubHub, let's say, has a certain amount of calls that we can

14 make so we can consume a certain amount of data. So in order

15 to prioritize how fast we would be pricing the different

16 tickets, we would prioritize to have the events that are closer

17 priced faster because that's when there is more buyer demand,

18 and the ones that are farther out, they would be slower and

19 then some other conditions there would be other cycle times as

20 well.

21 Q. Is that one of the components that you believe Mr. Gaynor

22 took from you?

23 A. Yes. When you say took it, I think he copied it, yes.

24 Q. In fact, the information of using different cycle times is

25 something that you advertise to potential customers, is it not?

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1 A. There were different points that we put it at, I think, on

2 the social media.

3 Q. The information that you contend Mr. Gaynor was able to

4 access by becoming a customer was also available to

5 noncustomers, was it not?

6 A. In that particular case it could have been. I don't know

7 timing wise. I believe this is after he was already a

8 customer, but, yes.

9 (Continued on next page)

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

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1 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

2 Q. Well, let's take a look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 496, page 5

3 of that.

4 Do you recall the date on which Mr. Gainor was given a

5 free demo of your product?

6 A. It could have been the 24th. I think that was the date

7 that -- either the date that he contacted me or the day after.

8 Q. And by your contention --

9 THE COURT: The 24th of what?

10 THE WITNESS: Of May of 2016.

11 THE COURT: Thank you.

12 Q. And your contention is that he signed and agreed to your

13 terms of use two days later on May 26; is that right?

14 A. On May 26, 2016.

15 Q. So the information that is given to him to entice him to

16 buy this product on May 24th was not confidential information,

17 was it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So if you look at this, do you see that it is dated May

20 24th of 2016?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Mr. Gainor has cycle times listed of zero to three days

23 is one to 15 minutes; three to 50 days, one per hour; and

24 50-plus every two hours. So does this appear to you, sir, that

25 the cycle times were given to him without any restrictions on

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1 him maintaining that as confidential?

2 A. Those are not the current cycle times, those were the cycle

3 times at the time. We've changed them. So what it appears to

4 me is that he was writing down features about the auto pricer

5 during the demo or after the demo.

6 Q. And that's because this is a critical thing that customers

7 want to know about any auto pricer, that is, how quickly will

8 my rules be updated?

9 A. It's definitely an important feature to understand how fast

10 your tickets are pricing. I don't think that they are saying

11 compared to other auto pricers, because at the time I don't

12 think there were, but it is an important feature, yes.

13 Q. So not just Mr. Gainor, but many of your customers would

14 ask you that question before ever wanting to see your product;

15 is that right?

16 A. Yeah, there would have been customers asking about cycle

17 times.

18 Q. And you would tell them those cycle times?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And it was not considered a secret that you shouldn't

21 disclose to them until a customer signs a terms of use, right?

22 A. It wasn't considered confidential information if we

23 disclosed it to them before on something like cycle times.

24 Q. Right. And here clearly you did disclose it to Mr. Gainor

25 before he ever signed something; is that right?

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1 A. It certainly looks that way.

2 Q. So you don't consider this confidential as to -- with

3 respect to Mr. Gainor; is that right?

4 A. It's not confidential, it's -- it's certainly Broker

5 Genius's information.

6 Q. And it's information that Broker Genius broadcast to

7 potential customers?

8 A. Yes, there would have been times that we would have shared

9 this.

10 Q. And that you also have put this out into the public to

11 entice potential customers; is that right?

12 A. There were definitely cycle times that we broadcasted at a

13 certain point.

14 Q. We could look at exhibit --

15 THE COURT: Is this document the one that's up before

16 the jury?

17 MR. HEISENBERG: No, it's not.

18 THE COURT: All right.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: If I could ask you to pull up Exhibit

20 AE.

21 Q. Do you recognize this document, Mr. Sherman?

22 A. Yes, it looks like a tweet.

23 Q. And is this a tweet that Broker Genius has put out?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it's dated November 30th. Is that November 30th of

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1 2017?

2 A. I think so, if I remember correctly.

3 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, I'd ask that Exhibit AE

4 be entered into evidence.

5 MS. MUÑOZ: No objection.

6 THE COURT: Admitted.

7 (Defendants' Exhibit AE received in evidence)

8 Q. So Mr. Sherman, is it true that not just Mr. Gainor, but

9 everyone who has access to Twitter would know what your cycle

10 times are?

11 A. Yes, as of that time, yes.

12 Q. And that, in fact, you used staggered cycle times in order

13 to update events that are coming up on a more frequent schedule

14 than things that are further off in the distance?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that's also a -- as you say, a very basic function of

17 the way brokers did it in the old days when they did things

18 manually, right?

19 A. I wouldn't say it's the same thing as doing it manually,

20 because if you had a lot of inventory, you wouldn't have done

21 anything like that. But if you're referring to did brokers

22 prioritize inventory manually in the near term, then, yes.

23 Q. So that if you have tickets six months from now for the

24 Superbowl, you wouldn't go and reprice those every five

25 minutes, right?

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1 A. No. I don't believe the way -- it's referred to as best

2 mechanism. These are part of the claims and the claims are

3 what we are saying is what we are applying for to be patented.

4 Q. Are you familiar with the enablement requirement under

5 patent law?

6 MS. MUNOZ: Objection.

7 THE COURT: Sustained.

8 Q. On item No. 39 you will see that it begins with a process

9 by which the server retrieves information about the event.

10 Do you see that?

11 A. 39, No. 4, is that what I'm looking at, if credentials are

12 correct?

13 Q. 42 has the events database and some of the data that is

14 then maintained in the events list, is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. We have the data for the events and it lists the account,

17 the event name, purchaser, all of that sort of information,

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then if we go ahead to item No. 53 on the next page you

21 will see that it says that the system can include an autopricer

22 application.

23 Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we read here, the process is described where the

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1 autopricer instructs the system to pull all of the seller's

2 inventory from either an exchange server's back end or from the

3 seller's point of sale.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That's the process that when you click on an event, the

7 corresponding information from the point of sale for the

8 inventory is pulled down into the system, is that right?

9 A. That could be a manifestation of what it is talking about.

10 There would be multiple ways to do it.

11 Q. Then you see there that it says that a user's imported

12 listings include the event information such as artist, date,

13 zone, section, row, seats, and quantity for each event.

14 Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. That information, which populates the inventory listing, is

17 disclosed here, this process of, you have an event, you pull

18 down the inventory.

19 A. It's talking about the general concept that there is an

20 event and the there is listings, yes.

21 Q. And then in 53 it also states that the autopricer then

22 configures the system to pull all of the zone information based

23 on the user criteria and to display current lowest prices in

24 each area so that the user can select the zones the user wants

25 to price against and autopricer application moves the listings

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1 to those sections which also show the lowest pricing based on

2 the user's preset criteria. And then the user can either

3 select all of the sections or specific sections to be accounted

4 for. Finally, after choosing the sections, the program can

5 display all of the rows with the select criteria. The user

6 selects the row range to be priced against.

7 Do you see that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is now describing a process of filtering that's

10 StubHub information, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. That you can select and obviously modify, either use the

13 whole zone, the sections, or the rows, is that right?

14 A. Yes. It's describing process.

15 Q. All of this is in the application that becomes public to

16 the world in January 2015?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then there is the pricing component in Section 54. You see

19 there where it says: At this point, the user can determine

20 whether to be the cheapest, second cheapest or third cheapest

21 in that criteria, for example. The user can then choose

22 whether he wants to be lower or higher than the lowest price by

23 either an amount -- example given, three cents -- or a

24 percentage.

25 That's the pricing component of being able to create a

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1 rule that will be tied to the selected comparables, is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then in addition to that, if you go now further on to

5 Section 101 or Section 100, it says: In some embodiments the

6 systems and methods described herein can further include a

7 group autopricer application. The group autopricer application

8 configures the system to select the lowest-ranked tickets,

9 least valuable example based on face value of the tickets, in

10 the user's inventory, and set it using the autopricer

11 application. Next, the system can select the -- I'm not

12 quoting here, but the process that's described here is the

13 system for staggering out tickets that are used in a group

14 function, are they not?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And then if you go to Section 101 you will see that it also

17 says: In some embodiments using the season pricer application,

18 the user can apply the autopricer and/or group autopricer to

19 multiple games.

20 That's that season functionality that we talked about

21 where you can apply those rules either to a group or a season?

22 A. It is talking about the abstract. It's not talking about

23 the way that our season's functionality works.

24 Q. That whole process, going from step 1 to choosing comps, to

25 creating rules, to applying those rules to groups, and to

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1 creating those to seasons, that's all in the public domain at

2 this point, is it not?

3 A. Talking about those concepts and features in the abstract

4 it is, yes.

5 Q. Now, I want to draw your attention to one other point on

6 this, item No. 98. It says that it should be noted that while

7 the present application primarily describes features of the

8 various embodiments from the perspective of the seller, those

9 of ordinary skill in the arts will recognize that the system --

10 MS. MUNOZ: Objection.

11 Q. -- systems and methods described herein can be used for the

12 benefit of purchasers as well.

13 Do you see that?

14 THE COURT: There is no question, so I'm not

15 responding.

16 Do you see that?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see that.

18 Q. Do you agree, sir, that someone skilled in the art --

19 MS. MUNOZ: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Let me hear the question.

21 Q. -- would know that an autopricer can be reversed to become

22 an autobuyer?

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 Q. Let's turn to Mr. Gainor's interactions with Broker Genius

25 since this is a contract case. This is not a patent case,

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1 right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. The contract that he entered into, you allege, occurred on

4 May 26, is that right?

5 A. Yes, I believe so.

6 Q. In fact, we saw yesterday that on May 24, Mr. Gainor had

7 received a demo of the product from Mr. Ellman, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE COURT: May 24, remind the jury, what year?

10 Q. In 2016, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was your involvement in Mr. Gainor becoming a

13 customer?

14 A. Just that Mr. Gainor had reached out to me by LinkedIn

15 messaging asking to get set up or inquire about pricing and to

16 get a demo. At that point I had turned that over to my VP of

17 sales by CC'g them on an e-mail, asking him to get him set up

18 with a demo and a trial.

19 THE COURT: Was your VP of sales Zach Ellman?

20 THE WITNESS: My VP of sales was Zach Ellman.

21 Q. Do you recall, after the demo on the 24th, whether

22 Mr. Gainor was interested in signing up?

23 A. I don't recall.

24 Q. Were you involved in the process by which his account was

25 created?

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1 A. No, I was not.

2 Q. Let me ask you to take a look, if you would, at Exhibit KB.

3 As I understand your contentions on your direct

4 examination, you believe that Mr. Gainor had an intention at

5 this time to gain access to your technology and therefore

6 signed up in order to gain that access.

7 Is that your contention here?

8 A. That he was interested in using the technology, yes.

9 Q. Not that he's interested in using it. My question was,

10 when he signed up, do you believe that he signed up with an

11 intention to use the product improperly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that he was --

14 A. I'm sorry. Did you say improperly?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I don't know. At that time I don't know if he was planning

17 on using it improperly. We had no reason to suspect that at

18 the time.

19 Q. Do you recognize this document as an e-mail chain involving

20 Mr. Gainor and Mr. Ellman?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, I would ask that Exhibit

23 KB be entered into evidence.

24 MS. MUNOZ: No objection.

25 THE COURT: Admitted.

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1 (Defendants' Exhibit KB received in evidence)

2 Q. Starting at the very bottom, down at the very last page, if

3 I could. E-mail chains work backwards.

4 This is now on the day of the 25th, so a day after the

5 demo. And Mr. Ellman reaches out to Mr. Gainor and says,

6 paraphrasing: I just wanted to follow up. If you have any

7 questions, I would be happy to address them. I would love to

8 see you guys take advantage of a 30-day free trial.

9 At this point Mr. Gainor had not expressed any

10 follow-up interest in pursuing the use of the product, is that

11 right?

12 A. I don't know. After the demo, this is a typical follow-up

13 where users, either they are interested and they want to get

14 set up right away or they are thinking about it. I don't

15 really know what was going on at that point.

16 Q. You see then from the response Mr. Gainor writes back:

17 Thanks for following up.

18 And this, by the way, it's on the page previous, but

19 what we are seeing on the screen here is on May 26.

20 So another day goes by and Mr. Gainor responds at

21 10:00 on the 26th: Thanks for following up. I really like the

22 product, but I just don't think that pricing model is for us.

23 3 to 4 percent per sale is pretty steep. That's more than the

24 credit card processors take.

25 Is it correct to say that Mr. Gainor at this point was

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1 THE COURT: Does it say that?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it says that.

3 Q. So within this section now defining what your rights are,

4 there is this provision that we were just looking at. If you

5 could find the section with the derivative works right there.

6 The section that ends with reproduce, modify, display, publicly

7 perform, distribute, or create derivative works of the site or

8 apps or the content. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you're familiar -- you said on your direct, the intent

11 here was to -- that you reviewed these because you wanted to

12 make sure that they protected your property; is that right?

13 A. That we collaborated with our attorneys to do so.

14 Q. And in the course of doing that, you became aware, did you

15 not, that the terms "reproduce, modify, display, publicly

16 perform, distribute, and derivative works "--

17 MS. MUÑOZ: Objection.

18 THE COURT: I don't have a question.

19 Q. -- are words taken from the copyright law; is that right?

20 MS. MUÑOZ: Objection.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 Ladies and gentlemen, I've told you before this case

23 has nothing to do with copyright law or patent law. The issue

24 is whether the defendant breached the contract by distributing

25 or creating a derivative work of AutoPricer V3. It's not a

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1 copyright case.

2 Proceed.

3 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

4 Q. Would a user reading these terms and conditions be

5 justified in believing --

6 MS. MUÑOZ: Objection.

7 Q. -- that this is a reference to the Copyright Act?

8 THE COURT: Sustained.

9 That one I could have sustained before the question

10 was asked.

11 Go ahead.

12 Q. Now, the definition of "derivative works" that you're

13 putting forward is that the user is not allowed to create a

14 product that is derived from your site or apps or content; is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So the source of the user's information has to be from

18 their use of the site or apps or the content; is that right?

19 A. The source of what they create has to be coming from our

20 site, apps, or content.

21 Q. That's right.

22 So what we are dealing with here is a question of

23 whether or not the information that Mr. Gainor has in his

24 Command Center product stems from his use of your site from May

25 of 2016 on; is that right?

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1 MS. MUÑOZ: Objection.

2 THE COURT: Just a moment.

3 Sustained. He can't read Gainor's mind.

4 Sustained. Next.

5 Q. Right. But my point being did you ever contact Mr. Gainor

6 prior to beginning the lawsuit to find out what knowledge he

7 had?

8 A. Before the lawsuit, the webinar was what took place to lead

9 to the lawsuit. And it was so clear that this was a virtual

10 copycat of Broker Genius, and that there was no product in the

11 market that was close to it at the time.

12 No one had ever been able to create AutoPricer Version

13 3 before. And so when I saw an identical product being

14 displayed and being demonstrated step-by-step, it was very

15 obvious where it came from.

16 And further, Mr. Gainor had 18 years of experience,

17 and never before attempted to bring an autopricer to the market

18 until after he used Broker Genius. So to me, that was enough

19 for me to be able to use as a basis of a lawsuit.

20 And furthermore, had Mr. Gainor had any evidence of

21 this before, he could have brought this out at any time prior

22 to it.

23 Q. So was that a yes, that you never contacted Mr. Gainor to

24 ask him about his knowledge?

25 A. Yes, that's a yes.

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1 Q. Okay. Thank you.

2 You learned that Mr. Gainor was -- well, first let's

3 get the timeline right.

4 On your direct you said that Mr. Gainor used the

5 product or had access to the product until April of 2017; is

6 that right?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. But, in fact, he didn't transact any business on -- or make

9 any -- create any rules or have any pricing functions after

10 December of 2016; isn't that right?

11 A. I think it was around December. I know that the reason we

12 shut him off was -- or disabled his account was because there

13 were no rules being set.

14 Q. Right.

15 So from all indications, Mr. Gainor's use of your site

16 ended at the end of 2016; is that right?

17 A. As I said, we didn't monitor how often a user was logging

18 in or even if they did log in. The only thing that we tracked

19 was the rules at the time. I have no way of knowing for sure

20 how often he was using the site after that until April 27th.

21 Q. That's right.

22 So when you say he had access, that means there was

23 the possibility of it, but you have no evidence that he

24 actually did that?

25 A. That's correct.

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1 Q. And in fact, from his transaction history, you could see

2 that his use of the site waned or was reduced from November to

3 December; isn't that right?

4 A. I think I recall that.

5 Q. So that, for instance, where his transactions -- he was

6 paying for the service a couple thousand dollars each month;

7 isn't that right?

8 A. I believe, if I remember right, that that was around.

9 Q. And then his last invoice from December was for $304?

10 A. I don't remember the exact amount. But I do remember that

11 I believed he was pricing his Minnesota Vikings tickets, I

12 think, almost exclusively. But that was the majority at least,

13 and the season ended around then.

14 Q. And in fact, throughout the 2016 time period, Mr. Gainor at

15 various points indicated to Broker Genius that he didn't want

16 to continue using the service; isn't that right?

17 A. I don't recall that.

18 Q. Let me ask you, if I could, to look at Exhibit KG.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: We can get this one off the screen.

20 KG. And if we could scroll to the bottom --

21 Q. Well, first, for context, Mr. Sherman, do you recognize

22 Exhibit KG as a series of communications between Mr. Gainor and

23 Mr. Ellman?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And is it maintained by Broker Genius in the ordinary

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1 Q. And at that point you received equity investments from

2 Cannon Capital in 2016, is that right?

3 A. It was in 2016 at some point in 2016, yes.

4 Q. A little bit north of 4 to $5 million?

5 A. I think it was a total of maybe $4 million round, if I

6 remember right.

7 Q. In order to fund additional expenses, during the time that

8 Mr. Gainor was announcing that he was coming out with a

9 product, you were in discussions with another venture capital

10 fund, were you not?

11 A. We were in discussions with venture capital funds from, I

12 think, the end of 2016 and maybe even earlier, you know, in

13 October of 2016, all the way throughout until we closed around

14 in, I believe, November of 2017, or October.

15 Q. When you said you closed, meaning you were in final

16 discussions with that venture capital fund through September

17 and October of 2017?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. And they also contacted you about Mr. Gainor's product, did

20 they not?

21 A. They asked us if there were any competitors that we knew of

22 and if there was any litigation that could happen in the

23 future.

24 Q. And they were concerned about potential competitors, were

25 they not?

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1 A. They were concerned more if we were going to be spending

2 money on litigation.

3 Q. As a result, this lawsuit was commenced November 7 of 2017,

4 is that right?

5 A. Sorry. Did you say as a result?

6 Q. I'm sorry. This lawsuit was commenced on or about November

7 6 or 7 of 2017, is that right?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. When did you receive the funding from the venture capital

10 firm?

11 A. It was around the same time.

12 Q. That was a $15 million investment that you received?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. From a venture capital fund called Volition Capital?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. That was on the heels of beginning the lawsuit against my

17 clients?

18 A. No. We were talking to Volition Capital. The process

19 started in June, I believe, and it's a lengthy process to go

20 through all the documentation. Just from the time that we got

21 the LOI, letter of intent, til close, which requires a lot of

22 documentation, is I think a 45 to 60-day process. The actual

23 signing of the agreement, if that's what you are talking about,

24 might have been November 6, but the process started in June and

25 actually started fully with the intent of funding in August.

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1 Q. That's Eric Pancheri who runs that company, is that right?

2 A. I think he's a cofounder, yes.

3 Q. There is another company called Lava Seats, correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And Divekar, I think you mentioned them on your direct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And also KP 3, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. These are among your biggest customers?

10 A. They were, yes.

11 Q. In fact, the reason that they left you was because of these

12 material disruptions to their business through your product,

13 isn't that right?

14 A. No. It was a combination of the price point on command

15 center being I think one-third or one-fourth of the price. So,

16 for example, if both technologies had the same issues and

17 offered the same benefits, a customer would, of course, go to

18 the one that's one-third or one-fourth of the price.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: If he can scroll down a little bit.

20 Q. It says: These unexpected complications caused material

21 harm to your customers user experience, isn't that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Those customers are your biggest customers: REPS & Co.,

24 Lava Seats, KP3 and Divekar?

25 A. REPS, Lava, they were all on Skybox point of sale. So we

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1 are referring to there specifically the Skybox issues that we

2 had had or they had throttled our limits for the large users.

3 So they only really affected the large users and that's what

4 I'm referring to here.

5 Q. Those large users suffered material harm from using your

6 product, did they not?

7 A. From the third parties' limits.

8 Q. And your business' inability to fit within those limits?

9 A. Yes. Until we were able to resolve them.

10 Q. But during that time period material harm occurred to your

11 customers, isn't that right?

12 A. Their user experience was definitely affected, yes.

13 Q. On page 7, there is a reference to fixing these problems.

14 The second bullet point says that you were going to conduct an

15 independent tech audit.

16 Did you conduct that independent tech audit?

17 A. I believe we did, yes.

18 Q. Was that with a company called Codette?

19 A. Yes, we did.

20 Q. Did you see that report?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. The conclusions of that report concerning the front-end

23 programming were what?

24 A. They said that our front-end code needed to be upgraded and

25 that it was not as good as it should have been.

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1 Q. And that it was flawed and impacting the user experience?

2 MS. MUNOZ: Your Honor, this is all beyond the scope

3 of direct.

4 THE COURT: Sustained. Beyond the scope.

5 Q. Did some of the damages that you are claiming here result

6 from customers being impacted by your poor technology?

7 MS. MUNOZ: Same objection.

8 THE COURT: I'll allow that.

9 A. Is the damages that we are claiming based on the poor

10 technology? Is that what you are asking?

11 Q. Are the customers who you are claiming as lost customers

12 due to competition, was some of that loss due to the poor

13 technology?

14 A. Again, the technology would only be relative to what else

15 was out there. So the issues that we were experiencing, we

16 have heard that the users, that many of the same users

17 experienced those same issues with command center as well.

18 However, based off of the fact that the price was one-third or

19 one-fourth, then, of course, the combination of the two would

20 lead a customer to go off of Broker Genius and onto the other.

21 Q. One of the things that you were claiming in this lawsuit,

22 is it not, is that your front end, the actual thing you see on

23 the web, provides a very good user experience, isn't that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes. The user interface.

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1 Q. And did Codette in their tech audit make a conclusion about

2 the front end and the user interface?

3 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. I believe he is talking about

4 UpTick again.

5 THE COURT: I'll allow that question.

6 A. I don't remember the way that they phrased it, but they

7 definitely indicated to us that we needed to continue to

8 improve our front-end code, which is what powers, from the way

9 that I understand it nontechnically, but the way that it allows

10 a user to click a button and have something else pop up and

11 load data and things of that nature, which we knew about.

12 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, may I approach to refresh

13 the witness' recollection?

14 THE COURT: Yes. Failure of recollection of the way

15 that Codette phrased it, is that correct?

16 MS. MUNOZ: Is that an admitted exhibit?

17 THE COURT: It doesn't have to be for refreshment of

18 recollection.

19 MS. MUNOZ: Do you have a copy for us?

20 MR. HEISENBERG: I do.

21 THE COURT: Take a look at that. Remember, the only

22 issue -- take a look at something else.

23 MR. HEISENBERG: If I can switch copies because this

24 one has the tabs to which I want to draw his attention.

25 THE COURT: Take a look at it.

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1 Do you want to direct his attention to a particular

2 area, sir?

3 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes. To document Bates stamp 1506

4 and 1517.

5 THE COURT: Take a look at those and, again, just the

6 issue is whether that refreshes your recollection.

7 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. This is entirely beyond the

8 scope of direct.

9 THE COURT: I am going to allow it.

10 Does it refresh your recollection in regard to what

11 they said, Codette said?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes.

13 THE COURT: What is that refreshed recollection?

14 THE WITNESS: In regards to the front end it says

15 front end application should be rewritten, experience angular

16 JS development is needed. Introduce proper coding standards

17 that will be followed across the team.

18 Q. And with regard to the second page, I believe it's 1517?

19 A. 1517 or 07?

20 Q. I believe it was 17.

21 Does it refresh your recollection as to what they said

22 about the user experience?

23 A. Not the user experience, but about the front end.

24 Q. What did they say about that?

25 A. They make several recommendations to us, including to build

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1 Q. At what point did Lava Seats leave for Seat Scouts?

2 A. I believe in February or March of 2018.

3 Q. And had they been rolled over to Version 4, UpTick?

4 A. I don't believe -- I don't know if they were at that time

5 or not. They could have still been on Version 3, because the

6 rollout was still over a period of a few months.

7 Q. Okay. So they were a Version 3 user and were having tech

8 issues, were they not?

9 A. You know what? I believe that they moved over to Version

10 4, that I remember, yes.

11 Q. The instability that they were suffering -- well, it says:

12 They left for Seat Scouts solely based on stability and have

13 never returned.

14 MS. MUÑOZ: Objection. Beyond the scope.

15 Q. Was that --

16 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

17 Q. Was that the stability of the Version 3 or of the Version

18 4?

19 A. That was Version 4. I remember that the customer was

20 extremely frustrated because we had told them about this new

21 product that was upgraded and had a lot of new features. And

22 when they moved over to the new product, they had experienced a

23 lot of issues with the technology not updating properly, and

24 they had a lot of instability.

25 Q. And in fact, the customer says that instability caused such

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1 anyone can use that process?

2 A. I don't know of anybody that's ever developed autopricing

3 from our patent, including Seat Scouts.

4 Q. The process and methods described in your patent are in the

5 public domain, are they not?

6 A. The process and methods describing the extract ideas are in

7 our patent. But the user interface, which is the central

8 piece, user interface and user experience, are not.

9 Q. And the user interface is a function of the code that is

10 drafted for it. And it's the code and the hard work of a

11 person who does the behind-the-scenes development that

12 determines how your product functions; isn't that correct?

13 A. The code is irrelevant to the user interface insofar as the

14 user interface is taking abstract ideas that do not exist and

15 then bringing them down into the world of reality by a process

16 of wire framing and requirements engineering. The coding used

17 is completely irrelevant. There's probably hundreds of ways

18 that you can code. So I do not agree with that statement.

19 Q. And the fact is your customers have chosen to use Command

20 Center rather than your product because the actual coding is

21 better on Command Center?

22 A. Absolutely not.

23 Q. And the product functions as it's promised?

24 A. Absolutely not.

25 Q. And the product doesn't break down regularly, the way your

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J17VBRO1 Sherman - redirect

1 THE WITNESS: Yeah, we show them what the product does

2 so the user can see, you know, setting up a rule. So they

3 understand that they can set up a rule using our technology;

4 they'll understand that there is a price floor. They'll

5 understand some of the high-level concepts. But they would not

6 be able to be a proficient user of the technology and

7 understand how each of the components interact with each other

8 and the various ways that they can use those components. That

9 takes extensive training.

10 THE COURT: Do they have to understand the ways in

11 which the components interact with each other in order to

12 effectively use your product?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes. In order to effectively use our

14 product, they have to understand how the components interact

15 with each other, otherwise they could be setting up a rule

16 illogically or doing something that they think is accomplishing

17 something, but is really accomplishing something different.

18 BY MS. MUÑOZ:

19 Q. And what, if any, training do experienced brokers need on

20 AutoPricer Version 3?

21 A. No matter how experienced a broker is, in our experience,

22 they need hours and hours of training. Some of them will get

23 it quicker than others certainly. Some users may need 20 hours

24 of training to become very proficient in the technology. Some

25 users can become proficient in the basis of the technology

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1 after maybe two or three hours.

2 But it's definitely in the order of hours to become an

3 expert in the technology. And in order to use all the

4 features, the full set of features, like the groups, the

5 seasons, the dynamic group seasons, profiles, using preferences

6 to match the way that they want to automatically set up their

7 rules, those things take many, many hours, more than the two to

8 three hours that I mentioned as being able to just understand

9 the product, you know, at a pretty decent level.

10 Q. How much do AutoPricer Version 3 customers ask technical

11 questions about the product while they are using it?

12 A. I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand. You mean technical

13 as in how the back end works or --

14 Q. No. I want to know about do they continue to ask for help

15 in using --

16 A. Yes, almost all of our customers -- we have a very robust

17 account management and customer support team. I think it's

18 around six or seven full-time employees that are dedicated

19 specifically for customers who are using the product to be able

20 to ask questions, understand how to use certain features, and

21 anything along those lines.

22 MS. MUÑOZ: Can we bring up DX-CI.

23 Your Honor, may I approach and give the witness a

24 copy?

25 THE COURT: Yes.

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J17MBRO2 Sherman - Recross

1 autopricing you start with an event list, you then click on

2 that, it populates the inventory list. You can then, based on

3 comps for zones, sections, and rows, create comps, and you can

4 apply a rule to that. Isn't that right?

5 MS. MUNOZ: Objection. Asked and answered.

6 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

7 A. I don't know how the patent actually phrases the work flow.

8 The patent describes certain components that are in our

9 technology. It does not talk about the user interface.

10 Q. No. That user interface is the one you then show the

11 customers during that 10 to 15 period during which you provide

12 them with demonstratives, correct?

13 A. We show them a portion of the product, which includes the

14 opening screen user interface.

15 THE COURT: Mr. Heisenberg, you said 10 to 15. You

16 inadvertently skipped over minute. It's a 10 to 15 minute.

17 That was inadvertent, I'm sure.

18 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes. I'm sorry.

19 Q. In the course of that 10 to 15, you actually walked them

20 through the user interface of actually what we just said, click

21 on the event, populates the inventory list, pick your comps by

22 zones, sections, and rows, and then apply a pricing rule on

23 that, is that correct?

24 A. Yes. A salesperson would do that during the course of a

25 demo.

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1 Q. Did you also tell them how the group function worked?

2 A. They may talk about the group function, but typically we

3 did not get beyond that. We talk about that there is groups

4 and seasons and other more sophisticated features, but that

5 would go way over a broker's head. We may have discussed that

6 there are other features. Groups might have been one of them.

7 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you.

8 When you said typically you would not do that, that

9 means in some instances you certainly would, isn't that right?

10 A. No. I don't think the sales team ever did that. That

11 wasn't the way that they were trained to do demos.

12 Q. Couple more points.

13 You distinguished other autopricing technologies when

14 you started your testimony. You said that those, like the

15 Amazon seller engine, do not allow the process for filtering

16 based on other attributes of the product, is that right?

17 A. I said that from what I was familiar with, which was not

18 extensive, that's what I understood the Amazon repricers to be.

19 Q. You have now come to learn that that's not actually

20 accurate that in fact those sorts of products do allow users to

21 filter while creating rules?

22 A. I do not know. I have never used an e-commerce autopricer.

23 Q. You are not testifying that in fact the autopricing

24 technologies did not allow this capability in 2012 or 2013,

25 when you first began conceiving of applying this to tickets?

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1 this -- again, this whole process is called requirements

2 engineering.

3 Q. Professor Koskinen, is there a correlation between the

4 detail of software requirements and how easy it is to build an

5 implementation?

6 A. Yes. So if you have a full set of software requirements,

7 then the process of writing code is much, much more quick. You

8 don't end up wasting any more time, you don't end up writing

9 something that then you spend weeks trying to polish it, but

10 then it turns out you don't use it. If you know exactly what

11 the product is going to be and it's all flushed out, then you

12 can much more quickly write the code and implement it.

13 Q. Professor Koskinen, does the fact that Mr. Gainor did not

14 copy Broker Genius's source code affect your opinions in this

15 case?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Why not?

18 A. Because this case is, in my opinion, not about source code,

19 it's about the abstract ideas and the concepts that are

20 embodied in these software requirements, these descriptions of

21 how the program should work. And in this case Mr. Gainor has

22 used AutoPricer Version 3 and, in doing so, learned the way the

23 software operates.

24 Q. Professor Koskinen, can you explain the process from going

25 from an idea to a mature product, is that always a predefined

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1 the marshals because they are short-staffed due to the

2 shutdown. We will have to see. I may have to end this at 5,

3 but I appreciate your willingness to go to 5:30. We will see

4 if we can accommodate everybody.

5 There you are. What is your question, sir?

6 Q. Professor Koskinen, could you please remind the jury the

7 three categories of commonalities that you identified between

8 autopricing Version 3 and Command Center.

9 A. Sure. I identified a common overall architecture between

10 the two products. I identified within that overall

11 architecture there was the same collection of subcomponents and

12 the same widgets and features, and those components have the

13 same way in which they interrelated and interacted with

14 external systems. Finally, I found both products have the same

15 strategy for addressing the problem of scalability.

16 Q. Professor Koskinen, you said that you also used a working

17 version of Command Center and Autopricer Version 3 in carrying

18 out your analysis, is that right?

19 A. Yes. I used both products.

20 Q. Could you log into both products to demonstrate both of

21 them for members of the jury.

22 A. Sure.

23 Q. I will just ask, Professor Koskinen, if you could just

24 explain what it is that you are doing on the screen.

25 A. Sure. On the screen is a log-in window for Autopricer

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1 Version 3. This was provided to me. Access to Autopricer

2 Version 3 was provided to me by Broker Genius by their counsel.

3 And this is the log-in window. I was provided an account so I

4 could log in. I will enter those credentials now.

5 Q. Professor Koskinen, do you have to set up this account or

6 was it an account that was set up already for you and you were

7 simply provided the credentials?

8 A. This account was already set up for me, yes.

9 I've logged in and now I am presented with the opening

10 screen of Autopricer Version 3.

11 Q. Could you please explain to us what we are seeing on the

12 screen.

13 A. Sure. I'd like to start by directing everyone's attention

14 to the left side of the screen. I'm sorry if the monitors

15 don't display very well. I will do my best to describe what

16 I'm doing.

17 Over on the left you can see the events list widget.

18 Here you see displayed the events for which you have inventory

19 in your point of sale. You, being a broker that would be using

20 this product, would have a number of tickets that you are

21 trying to sell, and these are all the events that correspond to

22 those tickets.

23 If you look at each individual event, it has some

24 basic information such as the name of the event. It has the

25 date and the time of the event. And it also has some

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1 information that comes from -- again, for now, please, just

2 focus on the left-hand side of the screen. It also has

3 information that comes from StubHub, so you can see SH equals

4 968. That's the number of tickets that are available for sale

5 on StubHub. It also tells you in your point of sale the number

6 of tickets that you have that you would like to sell.

7 THE COURT: This broker, you in this case, have 20

8 tickets that you own and you want to sell them and, therefore,

9 the Celtics versus Nets game today, January 7.

10 THE WITNESS: That's right.

11 THE COURT: StubHub, a secondary marketplace for

12 tickets, has 968 tickets for sale for the Celtics versus the

13 Nets tonight owned by a different people, is that right?

14 THE WITNESS: That's right.

15 THE COURT: Go ahead.

16 A. Up at the top there is a search box and in that box you can

17 search for particular events based on the event name. For

18 example, if I'm interested in say a game involves the Miami

19 Heat, I can type in Miami, and then I see only the events that

20 involve the Miami Heat.

21 I can also, by clicking on the search filters, I can

22 change it to instead search by venue name. Maybe I'll search

23 by the Garden, which is the name of the venue where the Celtics

24 play, and this will lead to all of the events that occur at the

25 Garden.

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1 THE COURT: That you have tickets for or all of the

2 events that occur at the Garden?

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. These are ones

4 for which you have tickets that are at the Garden.

5 Additionally, if I clear this search, you will notice

6 that the tickets that are displayed or the event that are

7 displayed here are displayed in chronological order by default.

8 Q. Professor Koskinen, was organizing the events by

9 chronological order, is that the only way that the events

10 widget or component could have been designed?

11 A. No, not necessarily. It could be ordered in terms of say

12 the events for which you have the most inventory. Perhaps as a

13 broker you might want to see those first or the ones in which

14 the ticket sales are the highest or the biggest volume of sales

15 or maybe, first, you would want to see listings that were for

16 the number based on your potential margins on the game.

17 Q. Professor Koskinen, I also see in the events list that

18 there is some data called get in.

19 What does that represent?

20 A. My understanding is that that's the lowest price for a

21 two-pack available on StubHub.

22 Q. What do you mean by a two-pack?

23 A. Tickets either come as -- for an individual seat or they

24 could come for two or four or six or some number of seats that

25 are all together.

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1 Q. Does that mean that in the event that you have highlighted

2 the get in equal $30, does that mean the cheapest two-pack or

3 two seats for the Boston Celtics versus the Brooklyn Nets on

4 StubHub is at $30 per seat?

5 A. Yes, that's my understanding.

6 Q. Are there additional criteria by which a broker can search

7 the events list widget?

8 A. Yes. They can also can search, for example, by listing the

9 events that are at the floor, and it may be easier to come back

10 to this later when we have gone through what the floor means.

11 These are events where you first establish a pricing rule and

12 the market has gone down and now your listing price is as low

13 as you said you would be willing to go, and they may need to

14 make a decision as to how you want to adjust those events.

15 Q. The broker has the ability to organize the events by order

16 of those that have tickets that have reached the floor that was

17 set by the broker?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Can you log into the Command Center product and show us how

20 you use that product.

21 A. Sure. Through counsel I was provided with a log-in

22 credential for Command Center, so I have typed them in. Upon

23 logging in I clicked on Command Center, which is loading.

24 We now see on the screen the opening screen of Command

25 Center, which is, again, the events list widget. Here again

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1 you can see all of the events for which you, as the broker,

2 have tickets that you would like to sell. And as in

3 Autopricer, once again, it's listed in chronological order.

4 If we look at any particular one you can start to see

5 some details such as, again, the name of the event, the time,

6 the location. It also tells you information that comes from

7 StubHub as well as information that comes from your point of

8 sale.

9 And then you can also -- once again, you can search.

10 You can search based on the venue name, for example, so maybe I

11 want to search for Madison as in Madison Square Garden. So I

12 type Madison and then I can see the results are limited to the

13 ones, the events that are at Madison Square Garden.

14 Q. Professor Koskinen, can you remind us, again, what is POS

15 or point of sale?

16 A. Point of sale is the system that a broker would have that

17 would keep track of their inventory. It's where prices would

18 be entered. It's one of the tools brokers use.

19 Q. How does the point-of-sale system relate to the market

20 exchange, like StubHub?

21 A. The point of sale is a separate system. But the point of

22 sale can communicate with the market. Once you update a price

23 of a ticket in point of sale, you can then have the point of

24 sale send that updated price to the market, like StubHub.

25 THE COURT: Am I correct in thinking of the point of

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1 sale as the place where your tickets are held?

2 THE WITNESS: In some ways I think so. Maybe it's

3 easier to think of it as a sort of inventory management tool.

4 THE COURT: That makes sense. It tells you what

5 tickets you own and the details of those tickets?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 Q. Professor Koskinen, did you formulate any opinions in

8 comparing the events list widget in Autopricer Version 3 and

9 the events list widget in Command Center?

10 A. Yes. So both in Autopricer and in Command Center, this

11 events list widget, you can see information that is pulled from

12 the point-of-sale system. Here, for example, under Indiana

13 Pacers, you can see that there are eight listings. What that

14 means is, just like in Autopricer, this means that the events

15 list widget has pulled this information from the point-of-sale

16 systems and shows you right here in this listing the number --

17 in this widget it tells you the number of listings that you

18 have for sale at that event.

19 Q. Professor Koskinen, can you explain to us what you mean by

20 software widget?

21 A. So a software widget is just an aspect of an overall

22 software system. It's a sort of subcomponent of the overall

23 system. And for the purposes of this discussion I'll refer to

24 different widgets, such as this events list widget that you are

25 seeing now, an inventory widget, a group pricing widget and so

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1 forth. There are different components of the user interface.

2 Q. Professor Koskinen, can you go back to the Autopricer

3 Version 3 account.

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. Can you explain to us what happens in the workflow of a

6 broker using Autopricer Version 3 after they select one of the

7 events for which they have tickets, like the one that you have

8 selected here on the screen?

9 A. Sure.

10 In Autopricer Version 3, if you click on a particular

11 event, let's say this one right here, Boston Celtics versus

12 Portland Trail Blazers, that causes the system to bring you to

13 the inventory list widget for that particular event. So what I

14 did just a moment ago was, I clicked on it, that event, and now

15 we see the inventory list widget, which is populated with all

16 of the inventory that you, the broker, has for sale for that

17 event.

18 Q. What is a broker able to do in the inventory list widget in

19 terms of analyzing their inventory?

20 A. In the inventory list widget, you see a table and this

21 table contains a variety of information about those ticket

22 packs that you have for sale.

23 Let's start with the QTY column. This is the number

24 of tickets that are in that pack that you would like to sell.

25 For example, the first thing you have for sale are a four-pack

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1 of tickets and those are in section 100, row 1, seats 1 through

2 4 of this particular event. Also, you can see the cost, which

3 is a cost that you, the broker, paid for them. And under POS,

4 that's how much you're currently listing it for sale. You also

5 have the ability to directly edit that and change that value.

6 The next column, which says BC, stands for broadcast,

7 and this means whether you want to currently have that ticket

8 broadcast to the exchanges so that other people can buy it.

9 You can double click to turn that off. I'll just double-click

10 it now and it will go from being broadcast on to broadcast off.

11 Q. Professor Koskinen, what happens now when you turn that

12 broadcast off? What, if anything, has happened?

13 A. When it's turned off, then the price is no longer broadcast

14 to those exchanges. You no longer tell the exchanges that you

15 have that ticket pack available for sale.

16 Q. Does that mean that a potential buyer on StubHub won't be

17 able to see this particular pack of tickets available for sale?

18 A. Yes, that's my understanding.

19 Q. What is some of the data that's in the remaining columns?

20 A. So the remaining columns mostly pertain to pricing rules,

21 as has been discussed. In this case there is the concept of

22 pricing rules that the user creates. For now no pricing rules

23 have been set, so we see them as blank or it says not set.

24 There is also a column that pertains to groups, whether this

25 ticket is part of a group.

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1 And as one proceeds through the subsequent workflow of

2 going through the next few widgets and creating a pricing rule,

3 then that information gets populated into this table in those

4 additional columns. So then you can see all in one place the

5 ticket you have for sale as well as the rules that you have

6 created for selling those tickets.

7 Q. Professor Koskinen, do each of the rows that we see here on

8 the screen represent a separate pack of tickets that the broker

9 owns for the Portland Trail Blazers at Boston Celtics event?

10 A. That's right. In this case the broker owns four-packs of

11 tickets. They own a four-pack that's in section 100, they own

12 another four-pack that's in Section 111, another four-pack in

13 section 200, and finally they have an eight-pack that's in

14 section 333.

15 Q. Professor Koskinen, can you demonstrate whether there is an

16 inventory list widget in the Command Center product?

17 A. Sure. As in Autopricer, in Command Center similarly, by

18 clicking on a particular entry in this event list widget, say

19 the Houston Rockets v. the New York Knicks, that leads to the

20 inventory list widget being populated with the tickets that the

21 broker has available for sale for that particular event.

22 It may take a moment to load.

23 Now we see on the screen the inventory that a broker

24 has for sale for this event, the Houston Rockets at the New

25 York Knicks. Again, you can see a table displaying this

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1 information. There are mostly the same columns. There is a

2 QTY column, indicating the size of the ticket pack. There is

3 the section, the row, and the seats.

4 Also listed is the current price, which is the price

5 that the ticket is set for sale in the user's point-of-sale

6 system as well as the cost that they paid over to the right.

7 And then there are a number of columns that are

8 currently unpopulated because, again, they pertain to price

9 being rules. Just as we saw in Autopricer, once you create a

10 rule, then those empty columns will become populated. And,

11 similarly, in Command Center, once you create a pricing rule,

12 these columns will become populated.

13 Q. Professor Koskinen, I noticed that some of the rows have

14 the column B-Cast or broadcast turned off and some are turned

15 on. Does that mean that in the inventory list widget all of

16 the inventory that's owned by the broker has been loaded into

17 Command Center, whether or not that particular pack of tickets

18 is currently being broadcasted to the StubHub exchange?

19 A. Yes. In both Autopricer and Command Center all the

20 inventory is loaded in the inventory list widget, regardless of

21 whether or not it's currently being broadcast. And in Command

22 Center here, just as we saw in Autopricer, you can click to

23 toggle whether or not the listing is currently being broadcast.

24 So I can click, for example, here, takes a moment, and then

25 starts to broadcast.

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1 Q. Professor Koskinen, does that mean, again, that all of the

2 inventory owned by the broker is loaded into the inventory list

3 widget so that the broker is able to manipulate and create

4 rules for all their inventory, regardless of broadcast status?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. Professor Koskinen, did you reach any summary conclusion in

7 comparing the inventory list widgets in Autopricer Version 3

8 and Command Center?

9 A. Yes. I found that they were substantially similar between

10 the two.

11 Q. If you can go back to Autopricer Version 3, Professor

12 Koskinen, and tell us what is the next step that a broker would

13 take in using the Autopricer Version 3 software.

14 A. Sure. So a broker may now want to create a pricing rule

15 for one of these ticket packs. First, one would click on the

16 ticket package. You want to create a rule. For example, I'll

17 click on this four-pack that's in section 111. And doing so

18 begins the interaction with the zones, sections, rows widget

19 for that particular listing.

20 So in Autopricer you can use an interactive map, which

21 allows you to start the process of defining comparable tickets

22 for the ticket you just selected.

23 In this case we selected a ticket that's in section

24 111, and that's right down here, kind of in the middle of the

25 stadium, in orange. It says 111. As a broker we might think

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1 that any ticket in that section would be a comparable ticket,

2 so I can click on the interactive map, this 111 box, and then

3 that causes that section to be selected. Clicking it at the

4 same time you will notice in the bottom left corner that the

5 sections that correspond to that are selected. For example,

6 under sections, section 111 is selected.

7 Q. Professor Koskinen, you are able to select the particular

8 sections and zones against which you want to set comparable

9 pricing for your section 111 seats by clicking on the map?

10 A. That's right. As a broker I may also say or consider that

11 the sections that are nearby 111 could be comparable tickets.

12 So maybe 109, I might click on 109 or I might click on 113.

13 And, in addition, I might consider the sections that

14 are -- I might consider the sections -- I'm sorry. The screens

15 are not great. I might also consider the sections that are on

16 the other side of the field at the same height to be

17 comparable. In addition to clicking them sort of one section

18 at a time, I can toggle to selection by zone, so I click on the

19 section that says zone here. When I click one of these boxes,

20 it highlights the entire zone.

21 Q. Professor Koskinen, can you explain what happened down in

22 the sections column when you clicked on the map.

23 A. Yes. So this map is interactive in two directions. When

24 you click on the zones on the map, then it causes that

25 corresponding section to be checked in this listing of sections

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1 that's on the bottom left of the screen.

2 Similarly, if you click on one of those checkmarks in

3 that section area, such as the one next to 109, it causes the

4 corresponding box in the interactive map to turn off. So I'll

5 click it a couple of times, and you can see that a

6 corresponding place on the interactive map is going on or off.

7 Q. Professor Koskinen, in the sections column there is an item

8 labeled price. What does that represent?

9 A. The prices displayed here as the lowest price for a

10 two-pack in that section that's currently for sale in the

11 market. Again, apologies for the quality of the monitor. But

12 this says club center 109 is the name of the section and then

13 next to it, price, 215. $215 is how much the cheapest

14 available two-pack is in that section in the market.

15 Q. What does the seats column represent?

16 A. The seats column is the number of seats that are for sale

17 in that section on the market.

18 Q. Am I reading this correctly that, according to StubHub, in

19 section 109 there are a total of 16 seats and the cheapest

20 two-pack of tickets is, I think it says 115?

21 A. $215. I can try to improve a little bit, but the monitors

22 are not great.

23 Q. That data that's displayed in the sections column, where is

24 that data coming from?

25 A. It's coming from StubHub.

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1 Q. Does that mean that the Autopricer Version 3 is integrated

2 with the secondary market exchange, in other words, StubHub?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. What is the next step in using the Autopricer Version 3

5 software?

6 A. Once the broker to happy with the selection of sections,

7 they use this pricing information from StubHub to help examine

8 the market and explore and refine, and they are essentially

9 defining a subset of the market based on these checkmarks that

10 they believe to be a comparable set of tickets.

11 When they are happy with that, they next click and get

12 rows and this allows them to consider the rows that are

13 available within those sections, so even more narrow. And

14 within this portion of the widget the broker can also specify a

15 range of rows. If you had tickets that were in the front row

16 of a section, you might want to only compete with sections that

17 are also in the front row of that section.

18 Q. Professor Koskinen, the data that's displayed in each of

19 these columns, the zone, sections, and rows, the prices and the

20 seats, does that include the prices of inventory that's owned

21 by the broker -- in other words, you -- as you're testing the

22 software?

23 A. No. It excludes that information.

24 Q. Why does it exclude the broker's own inventory?

25 A. My understanding is that Broker Genius found that it was

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1 product and the Autopricer Version 3 product is set up a rule

2 for the particular listing in the event that you've selected,

3 is that right?

4 A. That's right. In both cases I'll click a final button to

5 create a rule.

6 Q. Now, Professor Koskinen, is there an ability in Autopricer

7 Version 3 to create rules for multiple listings?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you please describe that.

10 A. I am just going to finish by saving -- OK. So now going

11 back to this inventory list widget, which we saw earlier, one

12 can now see that some of the other columns are populated, so

13 you can -- these columns are populated based on the rule that

14 we just created. Earlier I mentioned, it said not set and it

15 would be populated later. You can see what the floor is, you

16 can see what increment you set that you want to be $10 below.

17 Another thing you can do in the inventory list widget

18 is you can select multiple tickets and then treat them as a

19 price group. And what that means is that you can establish --

20 if you have multiple ticket packs, you can have their prices

21 all be calculated in relation to each other. So you kind of

22 group those multipacks together, and then you are going to

23 specify how they will relate to each other using something

24 called the group's widget.

25 Q. Can you demonstrate that for us in the Autopricer Version 3

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1 product.

2 A. Sure. After I have selected multiple of them, I can click

3 save as group.

4 Q. Before you continue, Professor Koskinen, I want to make

5 sure I understand. You selected three different listings all

6 for the same event, the Portland Trail Blazers at Boston

7 Celtics, is that correct?

8 A. That's right. These are three ticket packs that I had in

9 my inventory for this particular event, and I've selected them.

10 And one of them I had a rule associated with them. And now

11 what I will do in this groups widget is, I will associate them

12 together and specify the way in which their pricing should

13 relate. So it's a way of allowing multiple ticket packs to

14 be -- to have rules, pricing rules created for all of them.

15 You now see on the screen those listings that we have

16 selected. So I chose the one that was in section 111, an

17 eight-pack from 333 and a four-pack from 200. And what's

18 important is that they are in a particular order.

19 So the first row here, rank 1, which is referred to

20 either as the lead listing or the anchor listing, is going to

21 establish the baseline for pricing. It uses the rule that we

22 just created for it and has this calculated price of 160. Then

23 what you can do is, you can say how you want the other ticket

24 packs to be priced in relation to this.

25 So, for example, if I change what's called the

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1 increment to be $5, then after -- the first ticket is

2 calculated to be 160, based on the rules that we saw a moment

3 ago, and then the next ticket in the group will be $5 more, so

4 it would be 165 and the one after that will be yet another $5

5 more.

6 (Continued on next page)

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1 BY MR. MELMAN:

2 Q. So let me stop you there for a moment.

3 Does that mean that you can set pricing rules

4 individually for each of the listings, or you can set a pricing

5 rule for one of the listings and then have the other listings

6 essentially associated against that anchor listing for which

7 you created a rule?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. Okay. Is there a way to modify or edit this group of

10 listings?

11 A. Yes. So in AutoPricer you can rearrange these tickets. So

12 again, notice that they are -- their calculated prices are 160,

13 165, 170. Perhaps what I want to do is save my eight-pack so

14 that it sold later. I can click and drag and move this down.

15 And what this does is it reorders these ticket packs in the

16 group.

17 So that typically you'll try to sell the four-packs

18 first, or maybe as a broker you might feel that you want to

19 sell the eight-pack first, so you might want to reorder it and

20 drag it up to the top. You can also specify whether -- again,

21 whether the difference between each ticket should be a flat

22 amount of, say, $5, or a percentage, maybe each one you want to

23 be ten percent higher, for example.

24 Q. Did you identify the same functionality in Command Center?

25 A. Yes. So in Command Center -- again, now I've switched back

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1 to Command Center. And we can see I've created this first

2 period pricing rule a amount ago for this two-pack of tickets

3 and 101. And so now, just like in AutoPricer, you can see some

4 information about it, what the floors are set to.

5 And now, just like in AutoPricer, I can select that

6 listing as well as others and I can create a group. I click on

7 this button saying "create rule group." And I'm again led to a

8 screen where you can see these multiple multi-pack tickets that

9 are put in order. So again, as the user or the broker, I can

10 reorder them.

11 So it's the same basic -- or, sorry, it's the same

12 central functionality, which is that you have one particular

13 ticket pack, say in this case the top one referred to as the

14 lead or the anchor, where a price is calculated. And then you

15 specify how much you want the other tickets to be sold for in

16 relation.

17 So here it's referred to as staggered by, but it's the

18 same as space out. So if I say $5, then we'll see that the

19 first one will be for sale at $114, the next one $119, and so

20 forth.

21 Q. Professor Koskinen, what conclusion do you draw in

22 comparing the groups feature in AutoPricer Version 3 and

23 Command Center -- and the group feature in Command Center?

24 A. Both AutoPricer and Command Center have this groups feature

25 that's substantially similar in both products.

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1 Q. Now, Professor Koskinen, do you know whether the autopricer

2 Version 3 product and Command Center are used by brokers that

3 own large inventory, for example, season tickets to the New

4 York Yankees or to the New York Giants?

5 A. Yes. Both products -- my understanding is that they are

6 used by brokers that sell season tickets. And both products

7 have what I refer to as the seasons widget, which is a way for

8 managing those -- the pricing of those tickets.

9 Q. Does AutoPricer Version 3 have functionality that allows a

10 broker who owns inventory to an entire season of the New York

11 Yankees to set his or her pricing rules for the entire season

12 at the beginning of the season, for example?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you demonstrate that for us in the AutoPricer Version 3

15 product?

16 A. Sure.

17 So I'm going to close this group's widget. And to

18 just speed this up, I'm going to just delete this.

19 Just bear with me a moment.

20 Okay. So what I can do, again, once I've created a

21 rule for a particular listing, I can click a button that says

22 "set season." And what this does is it opens up a screen, the

23 seasons widget, which displays all of the other events for

24 which you have inventory that are tickets for that same team.

25 So in this case we were working with Celtics. And you

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1 can see here all the other events for which you have inventory.

2 And as part of this season's widget, we can specify a default

3 pricing rule that will, by default, be applied to all of the

4 listings in this entire season. And also in the same place we

5 can modify on a game-by-game basis and create custom rules for

6 them. So, for example, you might change the increment here to

7 be different than the other ones.

8 Q. So does the seasons widget or season panel allow the broker

9 to set his pricing rules for the inventory that he owns across

10 the entire season in one place?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Okay.

13 What is the next step in setting up that season rule?

14 A. Well, once you've established the default rules that you

15 want and any custom ones, then you can save the season.

16 Q. Okay. Does the Command Center product have similar

17 functionality?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you demonstrate that for us?

20 A. Sure.

21 So when I go into a particular listing such as the one

22 we set up a moment ago, I can click on season pricing. And so

23 here, just as an autopricer, I am confronted with the list of

24 all the inventory that I have for all events that pertain to

25 that particular team.

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1 So in this case we were dealing with the New York

2 Knicks. And we can see here on one screen all of those games

3 for which we have inventory. And just as an autopricer, I can

4 specify a default rule, and I can also specify individual rules

5 for individual games.

6 Q. Professor Koskinen, what conclusion do you draw in

7 comparing the workflow of the Autopricer Version 3 product and

8 the Command Center product?

9 A. I found that both products have substantially similar

10 workflow.

11 Q. And actually, just to back up for a moment, what does

12 "workflow" mean?

13 A. "Workflow" describes generally how a user goes about

14 interacting. It's a sort of portion of the user interface.

15 It's the steps they take, the order of those steps, and what's

16 achieved by those steps.

17 Q. So what we saw you demonstrating, the Autopricer Version 3

18 and Command Center, that was the workflow that you were going

19 through in both of those products?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, Professor Koskinen, I also observed that between

22 AutoPricer Version 3 and Command Center, there was some

23 variation in the way that the products look. What, if any,

24 effect does the difference in the way that the products look

25 have, in your opinion?

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1 A. As I analyzed the products, I considered similarities and

2 differences. I found that there was broadly substantial

3 similarities between the two products. There were some

4 differences, many of which were really very cosmetic or

5 superficial compared to the underlying effects of how the

6 different widgets work.

7 So, for example, the buttons are different colors, in

8 some cases graphical elements are laid out differently, the

9 icons are different. But the overall user interface and user

10 interaction is substantially similar between the two products.

11 Q. Now, Professor Koskinen, what is your opinion as to how the

12 various widgets or components in AutoPricer Version 3 and

13 Command Center interrelate to each other?

14 A. I also found that these individual widgets in both

15 AutoPricer and Command Center relate to each other in the same

16 ways.

17 So, for example, in both systems the event list

18 widget, clicking on one of the listings populates the inventory

19 list widget with all the listings of that event. In both cases

20 the selection of zones, sections, and rows leads to the

21 price-based comps widget. Just examples, but they basically

22 have the same ways in which they interact. Also creating group

23 rules impacts the listings widget, and creating in

24 substantially the same way between the two products.

25 Q. Did you prepare the demonstrative slide that portrays the

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1 interrelationship between the various widgets?

2 A. Yes. So this is a rough, sort of, schematic depiction.

3 And it shows in the middle some of these different widgets that

4 we've seen, like the event list widget and the inventory list

5 widget. I've used arrows to show some of the flow from one to

6 the next. They also communicate with external systems.

7 So at the bottom you can see exchanges, the point of

8 sale systems. And then all of these put together is the --

9 it's kind of an architectural diagram of the way in which the

10 two products are arranged.

11 Q. And did you conclude that in both AutoPricer Version 3 and

12 Command Center, both of those products have the same

13 architecture and relationship among the various widgets; is

14 that right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Now, you also mentioned that you prepared the -- I think

17 you called it the scalability between AutoPricer Version 3 and

18 Command Center?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you explain to us what you mean by scalability?

21 A. Sure.

22 So "scalability" is a technical term, but it's really

23 a fairly intuitive concept. Basically, the idea is you want to

24 be able to build a product that can cope with a lot of users.

25 So you develop a product, and at first maybe there's just one

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1 person using it or maybe just a couple using it. So I've kind

2 of illustrated that here with a user, sort of, in this computer

3 that's sort of central on the screen, and then the servers that

4 are involved in managing all the software in the bottom right

5 corner.

6 And so when you start out, you maybe just have one

7 user. That user, as they continue, they may amass more

8 inventory; and so that means there's more communication that

9 needs to happen with the server.

10 So in the case of these products, there is a need to

11 collect the market data that comes from the servers, such as

12 exchanges. And then also when you make price changes, those

13 need to be updated, the price updates.

14 And so at first there's maybe one user, but then

15 hopefully you grow and then there's more users, and now there's

16 a little more, sort of, pressure on the server to cope with

17 that.

18 And as you grow, it kind of gets worse and worse. And

19 suddenly it's like maybe if you try and use the IRS website on

20 April 15th, like the system is just so overwhelmed with people

21 all trying to interact with it, that it can start having delays

22 or start working improperly.

23 And yet at the same time these price updates are

24 really important to these brokers. They need to be able to get

25 these updated prices out there because the market is changing.

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1 So there's a need to address this issue in some way so that the

2 system can cope with all of this overload.

3 Q. How does AutoPricer Version 3 -- what strategy is

4 AutoPricer Version 3 applied to deal with scalability issues?

5 A. So I found that AutoPricer Version 3 and Command Center use

6 the same general strategies for dealing with the scalability

7 issue.

8 So first they both provide a way to -- sorry, to

9 manually push price updates. So you can click on a single

10 listing and immediately push it. They both have those price

11 updates going to the point of sale system rather than directly

12 to the exchange. And most importantly or notably, they both

13 use what I refer to as a tiered-based approach to coping with

14 scalability. And basically, they use the same kind of

15 prioritization scheme so that some tickets are treated

16 differently than others.

17 Q. Can you expound on that please?

18 A. Sure.

19 So both in AutoPricer and Command Center they identify

20 a top tier. These are tickets for which events are about to

21 happen; and the market is changing rapidly, so they really want

22 to make sure that any updates to those prices happen

23 immediately. Then there's near tier, where the event is coming

24 up, but maybe it's not as important. So to use the Bruce

25 Springsteen example, the top tiers, maybe the concert is

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1 tomorrow, and the near tier is, say, a couple of weeks before

2 the event. Then there's a lower tier, where the event is, you

3 know, much more distant. And so those are the first three

4 tiers.

5 Q. Let's just stop there for one moment.

6 What do you mean by updates need to be pushed out

7 rapidly, and how is that accomplished in the AutoPricer Version

8 3 and Command Center?

9 A. So for those events that are imminent, say the concert is

10 tonight or tomorrow, or the football game is tomorrow, here,

11 the market typically acts very quickly; it's changing, prices

12 are changing very quickly. And it's really important to get

13 those new prices based on the pricing rules pushed out to the

14 exchanges, to StubHub, so that they are listed the way that the

15 broker wants them to be. So that was what I was referring to

16 as the top tier, the ones that are happening really soon.

17 And then the near tier is also important. It's not

18 quite as urgent or quite as high priority as the top tier, but

19 they need to be sent out as well. And what I mean by "pushed

20 rapidly" is the frequency with which they are updated. So in

21 this top tier in both AutoPricer and Command Center, those

22 price updates are very quickly pushed out to the market.

23 Q. Does scalability only relate to how quickly the prices are

24 pushed out to the market?

25 A. Well, it pertains to how they are -- how the market data is

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1 collected from StubHub. So if you have a ticket for sale and

2 the price you calculate is based on market data for that, so it

3 also pertains to collecting that data from the market, it's a,

4 sort of, communication in both directions.

5 Q. Does scalability also relate to how often the particular

6 rule is going to be run and rerun to calculate new prices, if

7 necessary?

8 A. Yes. So the top tier are ones where the rule is

9 re-executed, rerun on a much more frequent basis than the near

10 tier and lower tier.

11 Q. Now, Professor Koskinen, is this tiered approach that

12 you've described about events being further out or more

13 imminent, is that an obvious strategy or design choice for

14 dealing with the scalability issue?

15 A. I think there's multiple ways of addressing the scalability

16 question. There are multiple ways in which you might make

17 these prioritizations.

18 Q. Can you think of a different way that scalability or a

19 tiering approach could have been handled in AutoPricer Version

20 3 and Command Center?

21 A. Sure.

22 Perhaps a prioritization scheme placed on the value of

23 the tickets. Maybe tickets that are valuable, even if they are

24 still further from the event, might be more important than a

25 really cheap ticket that's close to the event.

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1 investigating the Command Center and Autopricer works?

2 A. My primary job, as I said, is as a professor at Stevens

3 Institute.

4 THE COURT: Is Broker Genius paying you for your work

5 here?

6 THE WITNESS: Broker Genius is paying me for my time.

7 THE COURT: Paying you for your time. What is that?

8 What do you charge for your time for Broker Genius?

9 THE WITNESS: I charge $395 per hour.

10 THE COURT: As of now, approximately how much have you

11 billed Broker Genius for?

12 THE WITNESS: I am not sure of the total, your Honor.

13 It's not something I keep like a running total in my mind.

14 THE COURT: Do you have a ballpark figure? I don't

15 want a guess.

16 THE WITNESS: I am not sure because there have been a

17 couple matters with Broker Genius and those matters have been

18 spread over the course of now multiple years.

19 THE COURT: You mean not having to do with the lawsuit

20 entitled Broker Genius against Seat Scouts?

21 THE WITNESS: Right.

22 THE COURT: I gather -- I don't want to put words in

23 your mouth -- that you don't know what your billing has been

24 for this matter?

25 THE WITNESS: I don't have a running total, no.

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1 THE COURT: I assume, although you tell me, that the

2 success or nonsuccess of this litigation has nothing to do with

3 what you are going to be paid and what you have been paid?

4 THE WITNESS: That's absolutely correct. I am

5 compensated merely for my time.

6 THE COURT: Next question.

7 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

8 Q. Do you recall that when I asked you at your deposition how

9 much you had been compensated you similarly were not in a

10 position to estimate?

11 A. I recall discussing this during my deposition.

12 Q. After I asked those questions did you ever go back to

13 determine exactly how much you had been paid?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. Would your answers then be the same, that with respect to

16 this litigation that you are not in a position to estimate

17 whether or not the amount is approximately $400,000?

18 A. Again --

19 THE COURT: Can you ask the question directly. Go

20 ahead.

21 Q. Can you ballpark whether or not you have received

22 approximately $400,000 for your work in this matter?

23 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

24 THE COURT: Let me ask it this way.

25 The jury doesn't want a guess. Do you think your

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1 billings have been under a hundred thousand dollars or above a

2 hundred thousand dollars, if you know? Again, no guesses.

3 THE WITNESS: I am not sure, your Honor. To be

4 honest, it's not something that I track that closely.

5 THE COURT: You don't know?

6 THE WITNESS: It would be too hard to estimate.

7 THE COURT: All right. Fine. What they say about

8 computer scientists is true.

9 Next.

10 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

11 Q. In trying to determine exactly what Mr. Gainor knew in May

12 of 2016, you looked at the Stage Front product, did you not?

13 A. The Stage Front product, to my knowledge, has never --

14 neither myself nor the defendants' expert has had access in the

15 form of using the Stage Front product, nor has anyone, to my

16 knowledge, had the source code for the Stage Front product.

17 The only information that I think we have in this case about

18 the Stage Front product is what's provided in a few screenshots

19 as well as what Mr. Gainor says about the Stage Front product.

20 Q. And because you are not a user of the Stage Front product,

21 you were limited in exactly what you could determine about its

22 functionality, were you not?

23 A. As I described in my testimony yesterday, I went through

24 the screenshots that were provided and produced in this case,

25 and I made a list of the many features and details of Command

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1 though you didn't have all of the information you would have

2 liked, at least with respect to the information you had, you

3 tried to get as much information from those as possible. Isn't

4 that right?

5 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

7 Q. With respect to those --

8 MR. HEISENBERG: If I could, George, for you to pull

9 up page 61.

10 Q. This is the screenshot that you had of the Stage Front

11 product in your Power Point presentation yesterday?

12 A. It looks that way, yes.

13 Q. And based on this and some of the other screenshots, you

14 concluded that there was no interactive map, no group

15 functionality, no seasons functionality, and no tiered

16 approaches, dynamic cycle speeds. Is that right?

17 A. These are examples of some of the things for which I didn't

18 find any evidence.

19 Q. In the course of doing your research into Stage Front, did

20 you ask whether there was any testimony of users who had

21 actually used the Stage Front product that would be useful in

22 understanding these screenshots?

23 THE COURT: Testimony in this litigation?

24 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, your Honor.

25 A. You are asking, did I ask if there was a testimony?

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1 Q. Did you ask?

2 A. I can't remember if I asked.

3 MR. MELMAN: Objection, your Honor.

4 THE COURT: He says he can't remember.

5 Q. Do you recall reading any testimony of people who have used

6 the Stage Front product?

7 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's move on.

9 Q. Would the user experience described by testimony of people

10 who have used Stage Front be useful to your analysis to

11 understanding these screenshots?

12 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

13 THE COURT: Sustained.

14 Q. Were you able to determine whether the Stage Front product

15 had an event list?

16 A. In my analysis I carefully defined an event list widget,

17 which had all the details that I went through yesterday. And

18 when I looked at the screenshots provided, I tried to see if

19 those details were there. As I said, we are limited because we

20 are dealing only with these screenshots, and they have their

21 limitations to them.

22 Q. So you narrowly defined what an event list widget is for

23 purposes of your analysis, is that right?

24 THE COURT: I don't understand that question.

25 Q. In your prior answer you said, as you defined an event

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1 list, you used that as the definition that you were looking for

2 in the Stage Front product. Is that what you did?

3 A. Well, my definition of the event list widget was based

4 around the particular user interface and the user experience it

5 was in, Autopricer Version 3 and Command Center. And when I

6 looked at the screenshots for Stage Front, I was looking to see

7 if there was any evidence of aspects of that event list widget.

8 Q. In your best professional opinion are you able to conclude

9 whether or not Stage Front uses an event list to start its

10 autopricing process?

11 A. Well, again, it's difficult to say based on the

12 screenshots. I think this one here is a good example. There

13 appears to be something that pertains to events that's put in a

14 list, so that can quickly sound like it is perhaps related to

15 the event list widget. But when you look carefully at the

16 details, things look a little bit different.

17 For example, on the screenshot, on the one hand you

18 might think of it as maybe an events list, because there is

19 this header that says events, but when you look at the

20 individual rows, there is more of an indication that perhaps

21 it's similar to an inventory list widget. For example, if you

22 look to the right, you see a column pertaining to rows and

23 quantity and seats, and that's something that's sort of more

24 similar to what I identified as the inventory list widget.

25 Q. With respect to a description of how in fact this

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1 Is that, Mr. Heisenberg, what you were reading?

2 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes.

3 THE COURT: The Q that I had determined as an A?

4 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes. I interpreted it the same way.

5 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

6 Q. In the course of your evaluation of whether or not Stage

7 Front, in fact, did lack a group function, did you look at the

8 correspondence between Mr. Gainor and the people at Stage Front

9 concerning the existence of group functionality?

10 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

12 Q. Did you evaluate -- did you, in the course of your work,

13 review correspondence between Mr. Gainor and the people at

14 Stage Front about the product and its functionality?

15 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q. For purposes of evaluating the functionality of Stage

18 Front, did you review any correspondence with Stage Front?

19 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. As I understand it, you have stated that Stage Front as

22 shown in this slide was a customer of Broker Genius at some

23 point in time; is that correct?

24 THE COURT: Do you know if Stage Front was a customer

25 of Broker Genius at some time? You may, you may not.

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1 THE COURT: Professor Koskinen, do you know when the

2 programming of Command Center began? Either you know or you

3 don't know, it would seem to me.

4 THE WITNESS: The tricky thing, your Honor, is that

5 when the programming began, it's hard to know what that means,

6 because first there's the -- typically the creation of a

7 repository to store the code in, and sometimes someone might

8 start programming before that happens. And then a lot of times

9 you may do some basic work first before you start programming

10 features. So the question when the programming began, it's a

11 little vague.

12 THE COURT: All right. Fair enough.

13 BY MR. HEISENBERG:

14 Q. Do you know who was involved at Seat Scouts in developing

15 the code for Command Center?

16 A. I know at least some of who was involved. If I'm looking

17 at the source code, I could see that Mr. Pflaster, for example,

18 was involved in writing the code for Command Center.

19 Q. Do you know who was involved in developing the front-end,

20 the user interface, for Command Center?

21 A. I remember other names. Off the top of my head I don't

22 remember what those names were though.

23 Q. The wire frames that you presented as part of your slides

24 in this case detailed particular looks at the user interface,

25 did they not?

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1 A. Which wire frames in particular are you referring to?

2 Q. Well, you had one for -- and it's in your report as well,

3 for Stub Solutions, price-by-comps widgets. Do you recall

4 having those in your Power Point presentation?

5 A. Can you tell me which slide you're referring to?

6 Q. 50 and 51.

7 Do you recall these slides now, sir?

8 A. Yes, this slide. I mean I never didn't recall it, I just

9 wasn't sure which one you were referring to.

10 Q. The actual product that you took us through in the

11 demonstration doesn't look like this, does it?

12 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

13 THE COURT: I'll allow that.

14 A. This is a wire frame. It's intended as a schematic or a

15 description of some aspects of a product. Typically, a wire

16 frame may not be exactly the same as the final product.

17 Q. Does this look like any of the screens we saw the other

18 day -- yesterday when we were doing the demonstration?

19 A. Well, the various components that are illustrated here bear

20 some resemblance to the different aspects of the user interface

21 that I described.

22 Q. And do you know the process by which these wire frames that

23 says were prepared by Drew were then translated into a user

24 interface at Command Center?

25 A. What do you mean by "the process"?

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1 Q. Do you know the people involved in having these wire frames

2 then converted into a user interface?

3 A. Well, my understanding is that at least Mr. Gainor -- well,

4 I think that Mr. Gainor or I perhaps guess that Mr. Gainor was

5 involved and interacted with the programmers whose names I saw

6 in the source code.

7 (Continued on next page)

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1 Q. Do you know whether Command Center or Seat Scouts had a

2 particular user interface developer that they hired?

3 A. I am not sure off the top of my head.

4 Q. Do you know what role Mr. Gainor had at all in the

5 development of the user interface?

6 A. Well, here, from the screenshot of this wire frame, we can

7 see that Mr. Gainor, I assume that's what Drew refers to, was

8 involved in creating wire frames and wire frames are part of

9 the process of describing a user interface.

10 Q. Do you know when the Command Center product went into beta

11 testing?

12 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

13 THE COURT: I'll allow it. If he notes.

14 A. I am not sure of the exact date.

15 Q. Beta testing is when a functional product is then released

16 to a handful of users, right?

17 MR. MELMAN: Objection. No foundation.

18 THE COURT: You can answer that question, if he knows.

19 A. I know what beta testing is.

20 Q. And is it when a product is released to a handful of users

21 for them to start using it?

22 A. That's a vague transcription of some aspects of beta

23 testing, sure.

24 Q. Do you know the users involved in the beta testing of the

25 Command Center product?

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1 MR. MELMAN: Objection. No foundation.

2 THE COURT: I don't know what the objection is. If he

3 knows the answer, he can answer. If he doesn't know the

4 answer, I guess there is no foundation. If he knows the

5 answer, there is.

6 Do you know the users involved in the beta testing of

7 a Command Center product? I have no idea how you would, but do

8 you?

9 THE WITNESS: I don't know those users.

10 THE COURT: All right. Pretty straightforward.

11 Q. You are expressing an opinion that the process for

12 refinement of a user interface involves user feedback, is that

13 correct?

14 A. The process of requirements engineering that involves a

15 user interface typically involves learning from users.

16 Q. Did you evaluate whether or not Command Center had done

17 that in this case?

18 A. I evaluated that Command Center had not, or at least I saw

19 no evidence that Command Center had received any feedback from

20 users in their creation of this wire frame that's demonstrated

21 on the screen.

22 Q. That's the initial wire frame. There is no product at that

23 point. My question was, once there is an actual product, did

24 you see any indication of user feedback as to the product?

25 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

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1 THE COURT: Did you see any user feedback in regard to

2 Command Center?

3 THE WITNESS: Insofar as in the creation of the wire

4 frames from January 2017, I did not see any user feedback or

5 any indication of any users that would be involved in the

6 process of creating this wire frame.

7 THE COURT: Is the answer to my question, did you see

8 any user feedback in regard to Command Center, is the answer to

9 that no? If so, things would speed up considerably if you

10 would say no.

11 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. I want to make sure

12 I understand the question.

13 THE COURT: Of course. I appreciate your concern with

14 being accurate.

15 THE WITNESS: I don't recall learning or seeing

16 documents of indicating users or user feedback pertaining to

17 Command Center, and certainly I recall that there were no

18 documents indicating any use of user feedback dated prior to

19 the date of these wire frames.

20 Q. Before they had created a product they didn't have any

21 users giving them feedback on the product. Is that your

22 testimony?

23 A. Depends on what you mean by the creation of a product. As

24 I described yesterday, the software requirements are a critical

25 part of a product, and this slide you see in front is part of

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1 software requirements. And so in creating this aspect of

2 software product I didn't see any indication that users were

3 involved.

4 Q. Are you aware of Mr. Gainor's background in the ticket

5 industry prior to forming Seat Scouts?

6 A. I'm aware that he has some background in the ticketing

7 industry.

8 Q. Do you agree, sir, that there is a difference in the

9 requirements engineering involved in implementing a new process

10 that has been invented compared to automating an existing

11 industry practice?

12 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

13 THE COURT: I don't understand the question.

14 Q. In your opinion yesterday you had a depiction of various

15 paths that a developer can take. Do you recall that schematic

16 you had?

17 A. Yes, I remember that illustration.

18 Q. Do you agree, sir, that when the process that is being

19 developed is merely one of automating the steps that had been

20 done previously just in a nonautomated fashion, the actual

21 requirements are lessened for the requirements engineering?

22 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

23 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

24 Q. Let me give this a try.

25 Do you have an opinion as to whether or not there is a

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1 difference in the degree and level of requirements engineering

2 between a new process and an existing process?

3 A. My opinion is that in both cases there can be considerable

4 software challenges that arise. So, for example, driving a car

5 is done largely manually. A driver turns a steering wheel and

6 there has been an interest in having self-driving cars. But

7 just because that process was manually -- done manually in the

8 past doesn't mean that it is straightforward to automate that

9 process. In fact, researchers in academia and industry have

10 invested enormous amounts of money and time and research and

11 development into automating a process that was previously

12 considered manual.

13 Q. Do you have any familiarity as to whether or not the logic

14 that is being automated here was the same logic that was being

15 employed by ticket brokers prior to automation?

16 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

17 THE COURT: I'll allow it, if he understands it.

18 A. I am not sure what you mean by logic. Logic has technical

19 terms, so I would prefer some more detail.

20 Q. The sequence by which a broker in the preautomation days

21 would price their tickets.

22 A. What's the question about the sequence?

23 Q. Do you have any understanding as to what that sequence was

24 before automation entered this industry?

25 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

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1 THE COURT: If you can answer it, you may.

2 A. I come to have a general sense of what brokers may have

3 done in the past.

4 Q. And your general sense, based on that, did you understand

5 that they would follow the same sequence of events as this

6 automation process now has built?

7 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

8 THE COURT: Rephrase.

9 Q. Do you understand, based on that sense, whether the steps

10 that brokers would take manually before are the same steps that

11 are taken in the auto pricer products?

12 A. Again, we are talking about going from a manual process to

13 an automate process, and there are more details that come up.

14 You are creating a user interface. So that involves clicking

15 and interacting and those interactions were not part of a

16 manual process in the past. And so even if a process has been

17 done manually in the past, it's not necessarily straightforward

18 to automate it. In some cases the sequence may not be exactly

19 the same.

20 Q. Do you know the time frame in which Mr. Sherman developed

21 the Autopricer Version 1 to the time that it came out onto the

22 market?

23 A. I believe I provided in my report and in my slides

24 yesterday some of the dates or months of releases of

25 different --

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1 Q. So for Version 1 it was approximately a five-month process,

2 is that right?

3 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

4 A. I would like to look back to those dates.

5 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

6 A. What was the question?

7 Q. The time frame that it took Mr. Sherman to develop

8 Autopricer Version 1.

9 A. My understanding is that Autopricer Version 1 was released

10 approximately in September of 2013.

11 Q. And were you in the court when he testified about when he

12 started to develop that process?

13 A. I don't remember whether I was in the court at that moment.

14 Q. Do you know how that time frame compares to the time taken

15 to develop the Command Center product?

16 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

18 Q. Next to you there is a stack of documents that you were

19 presented with during the direct examination. It's Exhibit

20 1055, I believe. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If you could flip through and let me know, do the majority

23 of the entries there relate to the particular user interface

24 that existed in the Autopricer Version 1, 2, and 3?

25 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

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1 THE COURT: Is that something you can answer? I am

2 not sure I understand it.

3 A. You are asking me do the majority of these documents

4 pertain to which version?

5 Q. To edits to the user interface that is specific to the

6 Autopricer product.

7 THE COURT: I am not going to allow that. There are

8 hundreds of documents here. For the record, PX-1055 is a good

9 six inches high.

10 Q. Do you have an opinion as to whether any of the work that

11 was done with respect to the Autopricer development would be

12 transferable to a different product such as Command Center?

13 A. I think I discussed that to a large degree yesterday, that

14 the work involved here, as evidenced, at least in part, by

15 PX-1055 involves this process called requirements engineering

16 whereby one learns more and more about what specific types of

17 features and user interfaces are needed. And in that process

18 documents start to accumulate that document how that user

19 interface should work. And given the commonalities in the user

20 interface between Command Center and Autopricer, then I would

21 find these documents to be very relevant to the user interface

22 of Command Center.

23 Q. Does a document in there, for instance, changing the width

24 of a particular column in Autopricer, have any relation to the

25 development of the Command Center product?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

2 THE COURT: When you say, does a document in there,

3 where are you referring to?

4 MR. HEISENBERG: I am referring to the documents in

5 Exhibit 1055.

6 THE COURT: I am not going to allow it. There are

7 hundreds of documents there.

8 Q. Am I correct, sir, that you are not familiar at all with

9 the documents that comprise Exhibit 1055?

10 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

11 THE COURT: That's not his testimony.

12 Next question. Actually, I'll let you answer it, sir.

13 I didn't mean to preempt your answer.

14 You are not familiar at all with the documents that

15 comprise Exhibit 1055?

16 THE WITNESS: If the question is, am I familiar with

17 the documents in PX-1055, the answer is yes, I am familiar with

18 the documents in PX-1055. I think I referred to them during my

19 testimony yesterday.

20 Q. Am I correct, sir, that the documents that are in Exhibit

21 1055 consist of several edits to things such as columns on the

22 user interface?

23 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

24 THE COURT: Do the documents in Exhibit 1055 consist

25 of edits?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 THE WITNESS: There may be some documents among

2 PX-1055 that pertain to edits, but there is quite a lot of

3 documents here and a lot of them talk more specifically about

4 how particular features should work. So, for example -- I am

5 just looking for an example of other things, which there are

6 many. I am just trying to choose one that is helpful.

7 For example --

8 THE COURT: Let's go on. The question was, do

9 documents consists of edits? You have heard the answer. Next

10 question.

11 Q. In your direct testimony you addressed a product called

12 goPricer. Do you recall that, sir?

13 A. Yes, I recall that.

14 Q. You referred to the fact that the goPricer product on its

15 summary page says that it's not an autopricer, is that correct?

16 A. I can't remember whether that was from its web page or user

17 manual, but I recall it saying something to that effect, yes.

18 MR. HEISENBERG: If we could pull up Exhibit MD. I

19 believe it's in evidence.

20 Q. There is a detailed user guide. Did you review this in

21 forming your opinion?

22 A. Yes. This is among the documents I reviewed.

23 Q. You said that, if I understand you correctly, that goPricer

24 did not, in your review of this document, suggest an ability to

25 have a persistent rule, is that right?

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1 A. It didn't have the user interface, user experience I

2 described yesterday, that would allow users to create rules

3 that were then used as a basis of automatically recalculating

4 prices and retransmitting them to point-of-sale systems in the

5 market.

6 Q. We did see on page 4, under ticket price rankings, do you

7 see there that there are certain default sections and zones

8 that one is able to choose in terms of who you want to price

9 against?

10 A. What are you referring to?

11 Q. The ticket price rankings section here, where it says that

12 you can choose to be a better tickets in your section or all

13 tickets in the section. And then underneath that there is also

14 an ability to select either to be better tickets within the

15 zone or all the tickets in that zone, is that right?

16 A. Right. As I recall, there is an ability to do some sort of

17 zone or section selection, but not as is done in Autopricer and

18 Command Center.

19 Q. Is it correct, sir, that these are the defaults, but these

20 sections and zones can also be changed by the user. Is that

21 right?

22 A. Again, this is what we are seeing here is not the user

23 experience, user interface that I described yesterday. From my

24 understanding of goPricer, based on this manual and what

25 screenshots are available, there seems to be some way to select

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1 zones, but not with all the ways in which it is used in

2 particular in the widgets I described yesterday.

3 MR. HEISENBERG: Can we go to page 7, please, on the

4 modify zone.

5 Q. Does it appear to you, sir, that in goPricer a user has the

6 ability to select particular sections within those zones?

7 A. Again, we are dealing with a screenshot here, so we are

8 somewhat limited. There appears to be something about checking

9 off bleachers 180, bleachers 181. But we are not -- it's not

10 clear how that is then used. For an example, if you look --

11 you consider the zones and sections, widgets that we talked

12 about yesterday, it incorporates an interactive map. It also

13 involved showing the lowest available -- cheapest available

14 two-pack, among other things.

15 Q. One of the things you mentioned yesterday was the ability

16 to exclude pricing against yourself so that if you have other

17 tickets in the market you don't want to use those as your

18 comps. Do you know whether goPricer had that feature?

19 A. For that particular element of that list, I can't remember

20 off the top of my head whether goPricer had that.

21 Q. Do you know whether goPricer had the ability to update

22 tickets on a 24/7 schedule?

23 A. What do you mean by update tickets?

24 Q. Well, once the user has created a rule, did that rule

25 continue to run after it had been created?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

2 THE COURT: If he knows.

3 Do you know?

4 A. What do you mean by user creating a rule? Are you

5 referring to the rules that I described as are embodied in

6 Autopricer and Command Center, or something else?

7 Q. Well, in terms of creating a relationship to the chosen

8 tickets that you selected by modifying the zones, having that

9 relationship persist and run and update the price of tickets as

10 the process goes forward.

11 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. I don't understand.

13 Q. Do you consider the ability to select comps and then create

14 a relationship to those comps to be a rule?

15 A. The rules that I described at Autopricer and Command Center

16 are more detailed than that. There is a combination of things

17 that happened involving selecting sections and rows, selecting

18 delivery methods and specifying whether to be above or below by

19 a dollar amount percentage of the lowest comparable ticket, and

20 then having that rule persist and having the system continue to

21 recalculate calculated prices based on that information and

22 having the system then continue to transmit that information to

23 point-of-sales systems and exchanges.

24 Q. If I could ask you to take a look at page 13.

25 There is an ability to price your tickets that says:

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 Make mine cheapest among the better in the section, make mine

2 cheapest among all in the section, make mine cheapest among

3 better in the zone, and make mine cheapest among all in the

4 zone.

5 Did goPricer allow users to price their tickets

6 against the chosen comparables?

7 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

8 THE COURT: If he knows.

9 A. Well, again, it's difficult to know exactly how this works

10 because we are limited to this user manual and screenshots.

11 Again, what I described a moment ago about how the overall

12 pricing rules work in Autopricer and Command Center, they don't

13 do that here in goPricer.

14 Q. On page 11, at the very bottom of the page 11, there is an

15 ability for the users to use the drag-and-drop interface. The

16 third line down says: Simply drag and drop your ticket to a

17 position between two other tickets. And then, by default,

18 goPricer, and sets your price to be halfway between the two

19 tickets that you've dropped it between. Alternatively, you can

20 have goPricer undercut the more expensive of the two tickets

21 that you've dropped your ticket between. You may choose which

22 strategy you'd like to use via the drag-and-drop tab on the

23 settings page.

24 Was that ability available in the goPricer product, as

25 far as you could tell?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 MR. MELMAN: Objection. There is no reference to

2 interface.

3 I'll withdraw the objection.

4 THE COURT: You may answer the question, sir.

5 A. Well, again, we are limited in trying to interpret what's

6 meant by this paragraph here. We don't see even -- not even a

7 screenshot at this or any kind of indication about what

8 drag-and-drop interface they are referring to. Also, when we

9 go through the details of what I described in terms of group

10 widget, we don't see them reflected here. There is no

11 indication of having a lead and specifying a space-out or

12 stagger based on a percentage or dollar amount. There is no

13 indication that their broadcast can be specified based on rank.

14 This is just a very limited paragraph.

15 Q. Once the user has set that relationship that we just saw,

16 that relationship continues to run 24 hours, seven days a week,

17 is that right?

18 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

19 THE COURT: If he knows.

20 A. What relationship are you referring to?

21 Q. The rule we just saw being created to be either the

22 cheapest in the section or you can drag and drop in order to

23 price yourself between competing tickets.

24 THE COURT: What product are you asking about?

25 MR. HEISENBERG: The goPricer product.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 THE COURT: If he knows, he can answer.

2 A. I don't think we have come to understand what is meant by a

3 rule in the context of goPricer.

4 Q. Let me ask you to take a look at Exhibit NE.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: I have it noted as being in evidence

6 with Mr. Sherman, the first page.

7 Q. You see where it says: GoPricer reads your inventory every

8 five minutes and compares your ticket prices to other tickets

9 on the secondary market. All market data is updated 24/7. You

10 never have to refresh goPricer.

11 Does that suggest to you, sir, that the rules that you

12 create for your tickets continue to run over the course of

13 time?

14 THE COURT: Don't worry about what's written there.

15 The question is whether you know it or not.

16 A. Again, I am not sure what you are using as the meaning of

17 the word rule. It's being -- we have not really defined what

18 you mean by rule for the context of goPricer. While this is up

19 I will note that this is here where it says -- where goPricer

20 say, quote: It is not an autopricer and will never make price

21 changes automatically on your behalf.

22 Q. Even though the price is being updated automatically in the

23 user's program, that price is not being sent automatically to

24 the markets, is that right?

25 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

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1 THE COURT: Sustained. I am not sure that's what it

2 says.

3 Q. Do you understand, sir, what they say when they are saying

4 they are not an autopricer?

5 A. Well, I think that the second part of the sentence informs

6 it. They say we will never make price changes automatically on

7 your behalf.

8 Q. The prices can be updated within the program, but those

9 changes are not actually sent to the market automatically on

10 your behalf, is that right?

11 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Are you referring to where it says all market data is

14 updated?

15 MR. HEISENBERG: No. I think he is referring to the

16 section that says -- the last bullet point.

17 THE COURT: Ask your question. I think people are

18 talking past each other here.

19 Q. Do you understand that statement to say --

20 THE COURT: What statement to say?

21 Q. That the price will not be sent to the market

22 automatically.

23 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

24 THE COURT: Where is that, sir?

25 MR. HEISENBERG: I am asking for his interpretation

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1 when he says that they state that they are not an autopricer.

2 My question is, what is the particular component of that that

3 they are saying makes them not an autopricer?

4 THE COURT: Do you know what goPricer intended to

5 convey by saying they are not an autopricer?

6 THE WITNESS: Well, I assume that what they intended

7 was what is clarified by the second part of the sentence where

8 they say: We will never make price changes automatically on

9 your behalf. That's my best interpretation of what they meant.

10 THE COURT: Thank you. Next question.

11 Q. So the user had to push a button to transmit that price

12 manually?

13 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q. You testified that you believe that the technology

16 developed by Autopricer was unprecedented.

17 Do you recall that, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. As an example of unprecedented technology you refer to

20 Spotify as an example, is that right?

21 A. It was an example used for illustration purposes, yes.

22 Q. When somebody develops unprecedented technology, that's

23 novel, isn't it?

24 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

25 THE COURT: I'll allow that.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 A. It depends on what you mean by novel.

2 Q. If someone develops unprecedented technology, that would

3 not be obvious, would it be?

4 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

5 THE COURT: Are we referring to patent terms, sir?

6 MR. HEISENBERG: I'm asking just generally as to

7 whether if something is obvious, do you consider that to be

8 unprecedented technology?

9 THE COURT: Sustained.

10 Q. When you use the word unprecedented, does that mean that

11 there is a prior product that has the same technology?

12 THE COURT: What do you mean when you wrote

13 unprecedented?

14 THE WITNESS: So unprecedented means that a piece of

15 software is being built for which there are not any -- although

16 there may be some existing building blocks, there is either --

17 there is a lack of detail in terms of how to combine those

18 building blocks together. There is a clear way of combining

19 them that has not yet been established.

20 Q. If someone comes up with a new way to assemble different

21 components together, that would be a novel, unprecedented

22 technology, in your words, right?

23 A. Depends on the details of the circumstances.

24 Q. When that happens, you refer to the patent application that

25 Broker Genius submitted in this case. Did that patent

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1 application encompass the autopricer itself?

2 A. The patent application, as I described, was focused on a

3 particular strategy for pricing based on forecasting future

4 market prices. As I said yesterday, there was no description

5 of the user interface that was in Autopricer or in Command

6 Center. There were a couple of screenshots that I

7 demonstrated, but they looked very different from Autopricer

8 and Command Center.

9 Q. My question was, did that patent application seek to patent

10 the Autopricer?

11 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

12 THE COURT: Sustained.

13 Q. You testified yesterday that the patent application doesn't

14 apply to the Autopricer, isn't that right?

15 A. I testified yesterday that it pertains to a method of

16 calculating future market prices.

17 Q. When you consult with Broker Genius did you tell them that

18 their unprecedented technology should be patented?

19 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

20 THE COURT: Sustained. Beyond the scope.

21 Q. You watched Mr. Gainor's webinar on November 1 when they

22 launched the product, did you not?

23 A. I watched the webinar, yes.

24 Q. Do you recall what features of the Command Center product

25 that Mr. Gainor highlighted with respect to its benefits?

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1 A. I seem to recall he went through a number of the different

2 widgets. If my memory serves me correctly, this is over a year

3 ago. He went through the events lists widget, the inventory

4 listing widget. I seem to remember him demonstrating

5 interactive map, the price -- at least aspect of the

6 price-by-comps widget. I seem to remember him demonstrating

7 some of the groups and seasons functionality.

8 Q. Do you recall that there were many other features that

9 Mr. Gainor mentioned during the webinar?

10 A. I seem to recall that he may have mentioned or demonstrated

11 other features. At the moment I don't specifically remember

12 what they were.

13 Q. On the screen is this the webinar that you were referring

14 to that you watched on November 1 of 2017?

15 A. It looks that way. Also, I would note that this version of

16 the product -- this version is the one, I suppose, that was

17 available at the time.

18 Q. I'm sorry?

19 A. I assume that he is demonstrating the product as it existed

20 on the date of the webinar.

21 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, I would ask that Exhibit

22 Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 be entered into evidence.

23 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, this is beyond the scope of

24 my direct examination.

25 THE COURT: Sustained.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 Q. Is it your belief, sir, that Mr. Gainor never received any

2 user feedback prior to November 1 webinar?

3 THE COURT: Do you know whether or not Gainor received

4 any user feedback as a result of the webinar?

5 THE WITNESS: I think this relates to the question you

6 asked earlier. I saw no evidence that Mr. Gainor went to any

7 process of significant requirements engineering or

8 incorporating user feedback in his creation of the wire frames

9 in January of 2017. I am not sure what user feedback, if any,

10 he received between that date and November.

11 Q. And then with respect to the features of the Command

12 Center, do you recall that one of the benefits of the Command

13 Center that you saw when you watched this highlight was that

14 there were predefined rules and predefined company settings

15 that were available in Command Center?

16 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

17 THE COURT: Rephrase it.

18 Q. Do you recall that one of the things that was highlighted

19 in this video was that Command Center had predefined options

20 for companies that would persist through all of the rules that

21 that company created?

22 MR. MELMAN: Objection. Beyond the scope.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 Q. In your comparison of the two products did you determine

25 whether Command Center had an ability for users in setting

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 rules to set predefined rules for the entire company?

2 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

3 THE COURT: I'll allow that.

4 A. I think so, but I can't quite remember.

5 Q. That function allows users to create rules with three

6 simple clicks of a mouse, isn't that correct?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Would having predefined rules be a significant advantage to

9 users who wished simplicity in creating rules?

10 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Would predefined rules be important to

12 somebody who wished simplicity in creating rules?

13 THE WITNESS: That sounds like a further refinement,

14 but both Autopricer and Command Center have the same starting

15 point of all the widgets that I described yesterday.

16 Q. From that very same starting point, how many clicks does it

17 take a user to create a rule in Command Center?

18 A. I am not sure of exactly number of clicks that a user has

19 to make.

20 Q. Would the number of clicks be an important aspect of the

21 user experience?

22 A. The number of clicks is something that you might factor in.

23 It probably depends on the magnitude of it or the scale.

24 Certainly, there is a big difference between one click and a

25 hundred clicks. The difference is less significant when you

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 are talking about five versus seven clicks.

2 Q. With respect to autopricer, how many clicks does it take

3 for a user to create a rule in that product?

4 A. I don't know the exact number.

5 Q. Does having predefined rules minimize the amount of clicks

6 that are required?

7 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

8 THE COURT: I'll allow that.

9 A. It depends on what those predefined rules are and how those

10 predefined rules work.

11 Q. Does Command Center, in creating the comparable, first take

12 you to the zone section?

13 A. Well, in the zone, sections, rows widget in Command Center

14 you are first presented with a screen that has a map and it has

15 a rows and it has a sections.

16 Q. It bypasses the zones section, is that right?

17 A. I wouldn't say that it bypasses them because in the

18 interactive map you can toggle to select by zone.

19 Q. Right. If you specifically want to go first to the zones,

20 you can do that. But in Command Center there is a simplicity

21 in that users don't have to click through the zone first to get

22 to the section, is that right?

23 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

24 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

25 A. That's, again, sounds like perhaps a refinement of the user

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 A. I believe he asked me to.

2 Q. Did he ask you to because he was not going to the right

3 site? He was logging into the introductory site, the site that

4 people see before they sign up and not the pro Broker Genius

5 site.

6 THE COURT: I don't understand the question.

7 Q. Not the Broker Genius pro site, not the actual product that

8 people use.

9 THE COURT: Rephrase.

10 Q. Did Mr. Gainor need to get his password because when he was

11 logging in he was going to the introductory site?

12 THE COURT: If you know, you may answer.

13 A. I believe so.

14 Q. Do you believe that the terms of service are conspicuously

15 displayed on the Broker Genius sign-up sheet?

16 MS. TYRELL: Objection.

17 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

18 A. No.

19 Q. I agree with that.

20 This procedures manual that you apparently didn't

21 follow, did you write this?

22 A. I don't believe so, no.

23 Q. Did you testify at an earlier deposition that you did write

24 it, at least the section on installations?

25 A. I don't believe so.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 Q. At the beginning of the trial you heard Mr. Hinckley

2 telling the jury that you have 18 years of experience in

3 software development, correct?

4 A. Yes. I don't recall if he said 18 years in the ticket

5 industry or in software. I am not sure.

6 THE COURT: Speak a little louder, sir. Move your

7 seat closer and put the mic up by your face.

8 A. I am not sure exactly which he said, if it was 18 years in

9 the ticket industry or 18 years in the software industry.

10 Q. Isn't it true that you previously testified that you have

11 18 years of experience in software development?

12 A. I believe I would have testified I have 18 years in the

13 ticket industry. I am not sure I said in the software

14 industry. But I have been building websites in this industry

15 for 18 years.

16 MS. MUNOZ: Can we put up PX-103.

17 Q. That's your profile on the Seat Scouts website, isn't it?

18 A. Looks accurate.

19 Q. The first line says: Drew Gainor is a ticket reseller,

20 software architect, and marketing professional.

21 Do you see that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You don't actually know what software is, do you? You

24 can't define it. You don't know if it encompasses computer

25 code. You don't even know if your Command Center products

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 utilize a software, do you?

2 A. I consider our applications to be web applications, which

3 is made up of software.

4 Q. But you don't actually know much about software, do you?

5 A. I'm not an engineer, but I have ran -- I've been a product

6 manager for about 18 years, and I've written websites.

7 Q. Does that mean you know anything about software?

8 A. As I said, I'm a product manager. My job is not to

9 understand code, if that's what you are asking.

10 Q. When you call yourself a software architect, what did you

11 mean by that?

12 A. I mean, I've architected some extremely sophisticated

13 platforms that are still being used by upwards of a thousand

14 ticket resellers in our industry, so I have designed a lot of

15 applications.

16 Q. Do you know what the word software means?

17 A. I think it depends on the context, but I would assume it

18 means lines of code that are compiled to run an application.

19 Q. Didn't you tell me at deposition that you didn't know

20 whether code was software or not?

21 A. I believe that was taken out of context. If we go earlier

22 in the conversation, I was trying to understand exactly what

23 you were asking me.

24 MS. MUNOZ: Can we play that portion of that

25 deposition that took place on October 10, 2018, please.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 (Video played)

2 THE COURT: Mr. Gainor, you listened to that just now,

3 right?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

5 THE COURT: Would you agree with me that you were

6 doing everything you could to avoid giving a direct answer to

7 the question?

8 THE WITNESS: I honestly think --

9 THE COURT: Yes or no. Would you agree with me that

10 you were doing everything you could to avoid giving a direct

11 answer to the questioner during that deposition?

12 THE WITNESS: No, I don't agree with that.

13 THE COURT: Explain.

14 Let me ask another question. It was your testimony

15 when that was taken that you did not know what software was, is

16 that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: No. I explained I didn't understand how

18 she was asking me about software. It was very vague, the way

19 she was asking me.

20 THE COURT: In other words, how you define software is

21 a vague question to you, is that right?

22 THE WITNESS: It depends on the context, in my

23 opinion.

24 THE COURT: What about the context in a deposition

25 when you are being asked a question under oath, is that a vague

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 question then?

2 THE WITNESS: The way she asked it, it was. The way

3 she led up to that, in my opinion -- I am not saying it's

4 accurate.

5 THE COURT: I was just listening to that, as you were.

6 I gather that you don't know whether you communicated with your

7 engineers regarding code, software code that they were writing.

8 Is that correct? Because you said possibly.

9 THE WITNESS: We don't refer directly to code. I talk

10 about features with them. That's why I didn't understand her

11 question.

12 THE COURT: I see. You have never used the word code

13 with your engineers, is that right?

14 THE WITNESS: I might have. I don't know.

15 THE COURT: You can't remember, is that right?

16 THE WITNESS: I'm sure I have. I don't recall.

17 THE COURT: You say you possibly communicated with

18 your engineers regarding code. Have you ever written code,

19 sir, in your 18 years?

20 THE WITNESS: Not in probably about the last 16 years.

21 THE COURT: In order words, you have written code in

22 your 18 years.

23 THE WITNESS: Very basic websites.

24 THE COURT: What is that code? Is that code software?

25 THE WITNESS: It was HTML. I wouldn't consider it

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 software.

2 THE COURT: Software to you is going to Comp USA and

3 buying something like a game, is that it?

4 THE WITNESS: What I was trying to explain is, I

5 picture software as something you can install locally on a

6 computer, not a web application, like we were designing.

7 That's all I was trying to clear up.

8 THE COURT: You were under oath then, right?

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 THE COURT: You are under oath now, right?

11 THE WITNESS: Correct.

12 THE COURT: Questions.

13 BY MS. MUNOZ:

14 Q. When you call yourself a software architect, what do you

15 mean?

16 A. I mean that I typically come up with ideas on how

17 applications should work and the end results of what those

18 applications should do.

19 Q. Guinio Volpone is your partner at Seat Scouts, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And he's at counsel table, correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He owns Event Ticket Sales, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you worked for him at Event Ticket Sales after you left

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 Ticket Evolution, correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. When Ticket Evolution started in 2010, you were

4 vice-president of technology, correct?

5 A. I believe so, yes.

6 Q. What were your responsibilities as vice-president of

7 technology when you started in 2010 and throughout your tenure

8 at Ticket Evolution?

9 A. I worked directly with the engineers on all of our

10 products. I came up with all the features and wire frames and

11 everything they needed to do to build out our applications at

12 that company.

13 THE COURT: When you were working with engineers for

14 10 years, did you think you ever communicated to the engineers

15 regarding code?

16 THE WITNESS: As I said, I simply outlined features.

17 When she asked if I talked to them about code, I think that's

18 very vague, and I was trying not to be vague.

19 THE COURT: Do you think you ever said to your

20 engineers, can you write code to implement this feature?

21 THE WITNESS: I think it's inferred that that's what

22 they are going to do when they get the features.

23 THE COURT: You think you ever asked them that?

24 THE WITNESS: Asked them what?

25 THE COURT: Whether they could write code to implement

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 Q. And then he answers: Absolutely. I've been dying to build

2 this out, as it is what I miss most from Stage Front.

3 Do you see that?

4 A. Yes. I believe I said that part.

5 Q. Oh, I see, you did.

6 So you said you've been dying to build an autopricer;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. And this was September 2015?

10 A. Yes, when I created the wire frames, he asked me to create.

11 MS. MUÑOZ: And then can we have DX-C.

12 Q. And this is another email from you to Rai Volpone and

13 Guinio Volpone; correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. And the subject matter is an autopricer; correct?

16 A. Yes, that's correct.

17 Q. It's dated September 27th, 2015?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 MS. MUÑOZ: And can we admit DX-C into evidence

20 please.

21 MR. HEISENBERG: No objection.

22 THE COURT: Admitted without objection.

23 (Defendants' Exhibit C received in evidence)

24 Q. So you write: Hi, Rai. I think the autopricer specs and

25 wire frames are at a good point now. Do you see that?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But that's as far as you got in 2015; correct?

3 A. Yes. We never started development on the autopricing

4 functionality portion of Event Watcher at that time.

5 Q. And yet you had been absolutely dying to build an

6 autopricer a few days earlier; correct?

7 A. I told him I wanted to build one since we left Stage Front,

8 yes, that's correct.

9 Q. But you made no prototype; correct?

10 A. After the wire frames and specs, no, we did not do anything

11 else with that, as we had to build the other portion of Event

12 Watcher first.

13 Q. And you wrote no code for the autopricer, did you?

14 A. No, we did not.

15 Q. And when you started to build Command Center, you didn't

16 show any of those 2015 design documents to anyone on your

17 development team; correct?

18 A. No, I created new documents for my team in 2017.

19 Q. And you didn't show those documents to your development

20 team because when it came to making Command Center, those 2015

21 designs were irrelevant; correct?

22 A. No, they were -- I wouldn't say they were irrelevant. They

23 were still specs that could have been used to easily build an

24 autopricer.

25 MS. MUÑOZ: Can we see --

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 THE COURT: Did you use them to build an autopricer?

2 THE WITNESS: No, I created new specs at that point.

3 THE COURT: Why did you not use them to build an

4 autopricer?

5 THE WITNESS: Well, at the time I didn't remember I

6 had them, and it took me pretty much no time to create new ones

7 at that point, which I --

8 THE COURT: Why did it take you pretty much no time at

9 that point to create new ones?

10 THE WITNESS: Because I've been in the industry 18

11 years; and any time I spec out wire frames for anything ticket

12 related, it doesn't take me very long based on all the

13 experience I have from Ticket Evolution.

14 THE COURT: And you had already been a customer of

15 Broker Genius at that point for more than a year; correct?

16 THE WITNESS: No, I believe I was a customer for about

17 six months or so. But it was prior to when I redid the

18 documents in 2017, yes.

19 THE COURT: It was prior to when you redid the

20 documents in 2017, when you did new wire frames.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes.

22 THE COURT: In 2017 you had already been a customer of

23 Broker Genius; correct?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

25 THE COURT: So again, why didn't you use the wire

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 frames and specs for autopricer functionality in 2017 that you

2 had designed but forgotten about -- designed in 2015?

3 THE WITNESS: Because I hadn't remembered at the time

4 that I had them. I created a lot of different specs and a lot

5 of different --

6 THE COURT: So if I understand you, even though you

7 created the designs and specs wire frames for the autopricer

8 functionality in Event Watcher in 2015, and I think you said

9 you were dying to build it out, you forgot you had those in

10 2017.

11 THE WITNESS: A couple years later, yes.

12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.

13 BY MS. MUÑOZ:

14 Q. So Mr. Gainor, at deposition you were asked: "Mr. Gainor,

15 do you believe that the Pivotal Tracker entries and wire frames

16 for Event Watcher have any relevance to the development of

17 Command Center?"

18 And you answered: "Not directly, no."

19 And then you were asked: "Why aren't they relevant?"

20 And you answered: "I didn't use them to build Command

21 Center."

22 Correct?

23 A. I don't know. Can I see my testimony? I don't recall.

24 MS. MUÑOZ: Can you put it up on the screen please?

25 It's the October 10th deposition, 2018, page 120, line 7. And

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 A. I was talking specifically to the preparations for the

2 hearing. I handled all that myself.

3 Q. And did you ever talk to Mr. Volpone, either of the

4 Mr. Volpones, about the lawsuit?

5 A. In general we talked about it. We obviously -- I'll

6 refrain. But, yes, we talked at a high level, not about the

7 details of getting ready for this. We assumed, because we knew

8 we did nothing wrong, that the attorneys that we were working

9 with, who we gave access to everything, would take care of

10 everything they were supposed to.

11 THE COURT: You feel you've done nothing wrong, so it

12 didn't really matter, is that what you're saying?

13 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that it didn't matter. I

14 knew we had done nothing wrong.

15 THE COURT: The attorneys could handle it.

16 THE WITNESS: I assume the attorneys that we're paying

17 a lot of money to knew what they were doing to build our case.

18 I gave them access to everything.

19 BY MS. MUÑOZ:

20 Q. But you knew that this case -- withdrawn.

21 You knew that you were being accused of copying

22 Command Center from AutoPricer Version 3 in this case; correct?

23 A. Yes. And I understood "copying" to mean the look and feel,

24 which we knew in our side looked nothing alike.

25 THE COURT: So I take it the answer to Ms. Muñoz's

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 question, if I'm not mistaken, is yes.

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 THE COURT: Next.

4 Q. And if you knew it was about whether you had independently

5 developed Command Center, why in any of your discussions with

6 Rai Volpone and Guinio Volpone, why did none of you ever say,

7 Hey, we had all those ideas; we didn't need to copy AutoPricer?

8 A. As I recall, there was nine or ten complaints included

9 there. And I had no idea what we were fighting and assumed

10 that my attorneys were putting the entire case together and

11 asking me the appropriate questions.

12 Q. What do you mean you had no idea what you were fighting?

13 A. I mean we -- we're a start-up company, pre-revenue; we had

14 just launched our product a few weeks earlier. And when a long

15 complaint comes over with ten different things in it alleging

16 all sorts of things that I don't know anything about, because

17 I'm not a lawyer, I just assumed that everything I'm providing

18 to my attorneys would show whatever they needed to show.

19 Q. Did you verify the discovery responses you've produced in

20 this case?

21 A. I'm not sure what you're referring to.

22 Q. Did you sign and say, Yes, I think they are true?

23 A. If my lawyers had sent them to me, then I'm sure I did. I

24 don't know which document you're referring to.

25 Q. So at no time did you know what was produced, is that your

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1 testimony?

2 A. I assumed that the experts, the forensic experts and my

3 attorneys, were producing whatever was supposed to be produced.

4 Q. And you never at any time went to your lawyers and said,

5 Hey, you guys have missed something. I had all this

6 information. This should be our defense. I independently

7 developed it. You never spoke to your lawyers and said

8 something like that, did you?

9 A. If I didn't know what they --

10 MR. HEISENBERG: Objection.

11 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained as to form.

12 Q. Now, even though all three of you, Mr. Volpone,

13 Mr. Volpone, and you, even though all three of you forgot at

14 the time of the preliminary injunction that you had these 2015

15 design documents, you were all very, very thankful when they

16 turned up, weren't you?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. That wasn't how you felt when plaintiff's counsel

19 discovered the documents that you were withholding; isn't that

20 right?

21 MR. HEISENBERG: Objection to form.

22 THE COURT: Sustained.

23 Q. Isn't it true that at the outset of this case, on November

24 20th, 2017, you said in your response to plaintiff's

25 Interrogatory No. 10, Gainor no longer has access -- Gainor no

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 longer has the machine that he used to access AutoPricer; isn't

2 that correct?

3 A. What was the date of that?

4 Q. November 20th, 2017.

5 A. I don't know. I'd have to see the documents. That was a

6 long time ago.

7 MS. MUÑOZ: Can you put up defendants' response to

8 Interrogatory No. 10.

9 (Pause)

10 Q. Let me ask you a question while we're looking at that.

11 When your documents were collected, there were certain

12 search terms used to find the relevant documents, the

13 responsive documents, in all of your emails; correct?

14 A. I would assume so. I gave my attorneys access to all of my

15 email accounts, to run those, the discovery requests.

16 Q. One of those terms was AutoPricer; correct?

17 A. I can take your word for it.

18 Q. But none of those emails I showed you between Rai Volpone,

19 Guinio Volpone, and you, all talking about an autopricer, were

20 produced in this litigation until after plaintiff found a link

21 to these documents; correct?

22 A. As far as I understand, the attorneys at the time had only

23 ran back through the beginning of Seat Scouts or some period

24 like that and hadn't gone back in time, but you'd have to ask

25 my attorneys about that.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 MS. MUÑOZ: Do we have the interrogatory response No.

2 10?

3 Q. And if you go to the bottom, you can see the last line

4 says: Gainor no longer has the machine that he used to access

5 AutoPricer and, therefore, can't identify the IP address for

6 it. Do you see that?

7 A. I do, yes.

8 Q. Okay.

9 THE COURT: Highlight that. Highlight that, because I

10 don't see it. You can just tell me where it is.

11 MS. MUÑOZ: It's the very, very last line.

12 THE COURT: All right. Where the cursor is?

13 MS. MUÑOZ: Yes.

14 THE COURT: All right. I see it.

15 Q. Now, isn't it true that you refused to disclose the

16 whereabouts of that machine or computer despite plaintiff's

17 repeated requests?

18 A. No, that's not true.

19 Q. Isn't it true that on November 28th, 2017, plaintiff wrote

20 a letter to Judge Stein asking for the laptop. And

21 Mr. Bernstein, who was your lawyer at the time, responded:

22 There is no mystery as to Mr. Gainor's laptop. He simply

23 purchased a new one months prior to any lawsuit being filed.

24 And then in December -- December 5th, there was yet

25 another request --

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1 THE COURT: What year?

2 MS. MUÑOZ: 2017.

3 Q. And it wasn't until the Court actually asked -- the Court

4 said: Where is the missing Gainor laptop?

5 And Mr. Heisenberg said: I don't know where it is

6 exactly. But if your Honor would like him to, I think he's got

7 from -- oh, I had the briefest of conversations with him about

8 it when we stepped into the hallway. There were other issues.

9 But my understanding of it, he said, I believe, it's his wife's

10 laptop; his wife is now using it.

11 And the Court said: The missing Gainor laptop is no

12 longer missing. That's just wonderful.

13 THE COURT: Is there a question there?

14 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, may I have a sidebar?

15 THE COURT: Yes.

16 Ladies and gentlemen, it's 3:30. Why don't I give you

17 a ten-minute break. I think I need one also.

18 We don't have to go to sidebar because the jury is

19 leaving. You may step down, sir.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 THE COURT: Sure.

22 (Witness steps down)

23 (Jury not present)

24 THE COURT: You may be seated in the courtroom.

25 Ms. Muñoz, that was a lengthy recitation of something

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 apparently from a court transcript, but there was no question

2 there.

3 MS. MUÑOZ: Well, there would have been. I would have

4 said "isn't that correct"?

5 THE COURT: Isn't what correct?

6 MS. MUÑOZ: What I explained to him.

7 THE COURT: All right.

8 Mr. Heisenberg, you asked for a sidebar.

9 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, your Honor.

10 We had discussed exactly how this issue was going to

11 be raised. Magistrate Netburn, on December 11th, specifically

12 directed -- did not direct Mr. Gainor to produce the laptop.

13 She said: And the only request they have put in was that he

14 himself check his laptop in order to determine whether he could

15 ascertain certain information, IP addresses from it.

16 I have her transcript, and it's on December 11, page

17 24.

18 THE COURT: Of? Again, place me in a year.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: 2017. So right in the midst of

20 exactly all of this colloquy that we're addressing.

21 THE COURT: Just a moment.

22 This is when discovery is going on preliminary to the

23 preliminary injunction hearing?

24 MR. HEISENBERG: Exactly.

25 THE COURT: All right.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 MR. HEISENBERG: And Judge Netburn says at the end:

2 It's fully disclosed here that Mr. Gainor's wife has the

3 laptop. Plaintiffs themselves did not ask for the laptop.

4 MS. MUÑOZ: That's not true.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: Excuse me.

6 And Magistrate Netburn at the conclusion of it says:

7 Okay. I've ordered the defendant to search the laptop, whether

8 that means the hard drive through a service provider, if it's

9 for the three-month period from May 1st, 2016, through July

10 31st, 2016, and to provide those IP addresses. Let's set a

11 deadline for doing that.

12 In other words, the court order at that point did not

13 require him -- and, in fact, it accepted that he did not have

14 to produce the laptop and they did not ask for the laptop at

15 that point.

16 It was only on December 19th, the first day of the

17 preliminary injunction hearing, that they came to court again

18 and said, We don't believe him when he says that they cannot

19 recover the IP addresses. And as a result --

20 THE COURT: And they were correct, right?

21 MR. HEISENBERG: And it was correct, that there was no

22 IP address information that could be gotten from it, just as

23 Mr. Gainor had said.

24 THE COURT: No, they were correct in not believing him

25 when he said that he cannot recover the IP addresses.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 MR. HEISENBERG: No, your Honor.

2 THE COURT: That's what I don't understand. I thought

3 because his wife had the laptop, he certainly could have

4 recovered the IP addresses, unless, of course, he has no

5 dealings with his wife, and I'm not prepared to say that.

6 MR. HEISENBERG: No, your Honor. The IP address is

7 a -- as you may know, when you access the Internet, you get a

8 certain number assigned to you.

9 THE COURT: Right, IP, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

10 MR. HEISENBERG: Well, this is important, because this

11 is an important distinction that seems to have been lost.

12 The IP address is a specifically identifiable number

13 that some Internet services have or that a computer has. They

14 wanted to see whether they could match up that IP address

15 number, 41.31.118, a specific address, in order to match it up

16 with their records of whether or not Mr. Gainor accessed the

17 number. That was the only --

18 THE COURT: Mr. Gainor accessed?

19 MR. HEISENBERG: Their website.

20 THE COURT: Okay.

21 MR. HEISENBERG: That was the only reason -- that was

22 the only request that they had made. And that's exactly what

23 Magistrate Netburn then said: Please, Mr. Gainor, if you can,

24 go back to the computer and see whether you can recover that

25 address. Mr. Gainor could not recover that address, informed

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1 the Court that indeed --

2 THE COURT: Why is that, if he had access to his

3 laptop?

4 MR. HEISENBERG: Because laptops do not have IP

5 addresses that are static. When you use a laptop and you go on

6 to the Internet, you go through the service provider. And the

7 service provider --

8 THE COURT: I thought the IP address identifies the

9 hardware that the search is being done from.

10 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. It does -- but there are two

11 different ways to record that. There are static IP addresses,

12 meaning they are fixed; and then there are ones that every time

13 you log into your --

14 THE COURT: I'm not sure what we're fighting over.

15 MR. HEISENBERG: Right.

16 THE COURT: My recollection is it was beyond pulling

17 teeth to get Gainor to turn over the laptop, that's what my

18 recollection is.

19 So what can I do for you, sir?

20 MR. HEISENBERG: Well, so two points:

21 First, it was not pulling teeth. As we said,

22 Magistrate Netburn required him to do it. There was no request

23 to turn it over. When your Honor ordered Mr. Gainor on the

24 first day of hearing to get it, as you said, it was immediately

25 FedExed.

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1 Secondly --

2 THE COURT: I didn't say that. I said you complied

3 with -- your client complied with my order.

4 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. Up until that point,

5 Magistrate Netburn specifically said, I want you to check it

6 yourself. There was no request made to get the laptop at that

7 point in time. And this whole, you know, issue of whether or

8 not --

9 THE COURT: What can I do for you? What are you

10 asking for?

11 MR. HEISENBERG: Well, we are dwelling on this. And

12 if your Honor, I thought, at sidebar had concluded that the

13 parties were not to get into judicial orders and what was

14 ordered by whom where --

15 THE COURT: I prefer that it just be evidence than

16 rather what the Court said or didn't say, yes.

17 MR. HEISENBERG: Right.

18 However, since we are now getting into whether or not

19 he had been directed to do it or whatever, I feel compelled to

20 have to introduce Magistrate Netburn's order, which both

21 recognizes that he had told that his wife had the laptop, so it

22 was not hidden; and secondly, that she did not at that point

23 require that it be turned over, which is the --

24 THE COURT: Let me hear from Ms. Muñoz. Thank you.

25 I now understand. It took a while, but now I

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1 understand what you want from me.

2 MS. MUÑOZ: Okay.

3 So Mr. Melman wrote on November 29th --

4 THE COURT: Ms. Muñoz, Mr. -- and this time is being

5 charged to both of you, by the way.

6 Here's what Mr. Heisenberg is saying: Judge Netburn

7 didn't do anything more than say, Get me an IP address. And

8 you've painted a picture for the jury, which certainly is

9 consistent with my recollection, that Mr. Gainor was not

10 forthcoming in turning over the laptop until directed to do so

11 by the Court. Mr. Heisenberg is saying it's wrong.

12 Well, until I directed that it be turned over, and it

13 was, immediately, Mr. Heisenberg says, and that's consistent

14 with my recollection, I remember a discussion, because you guys

15 wanted to -- "you guys" meaning Broker Genius, wanted to get it

16 to your outside expert, and we were in the middle or toward the

17 end of the preliminary injunction hearing, there was a big

18 discussion about FedEx and so forth. So I do recall that once

19 I directed Mr. Gainor to turn over the laptop, it was turned

20 over to you.

21 MS. MUÑOZ: Your Honor --

22 THE COURT: So that's consistent with what

23 Mr. Heisenberg is saying.

24 MS. MUÑOZ: But --

25 THE COURT: We differ in that -- my recollection

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 differs from Mr. Heisenberg's insofar as Mr. Heisenberg is

2 saying -- I guess I wasn't really focusing on what Judge

3 Netburn had ordered. All she ordered was that he get an IP

4 address. And therefore, Mr. Heisenberg says, for the first

5 time, Judge Stein ordered it be turned over, and we turned it

6 over. And you've painted a picture of a grudging and belated

7 compliance.

8 What do you say?

9 MS. MUÑOZ: Well, as your Honor knows, they wouldn't

10 identify where it was, nor would they confirm that all

11 responsive ESI on Defendant Gainor's prior laptop would be

12 produced. And as it turned out, it was not produced.

13 On December 5th, Mr. Heisenberg was asked, Where is

14 the missing laptop? And he basically said, It's not a missing

15 laptop; they will find out when they take the deposition and

16 request information about it.

17 And that's where you said: Where is the missing

18 Gainor laptop?

19 And Mr. Heisenberg obfuscated for a few moments, and

20 then he said: I believe he said it's his wife's laptop. His

21 wife is now using it.

22 The IP address is a separate issue. We became

23 extremely --

24 THE COURT: All right. I've heard enough.

25 I'm not going to allow the Netburn order in. I think

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1 it's adequate the way it is. Although I repeat again, there

2 was a lengthy statement by Ms. Muñoz, I would have thought

3 Mr. Heisenberg would have objected to it, but there's no

4 question. So let's pick it up with a question.

5 Take a few minutes.

6 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor?

7 THE COURT: Yes.

8 MR. HEISENBERG: If I could raise one additional

9 issue.

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 MR. HEISENBERG: The Court has been very active in its

12 questioning of Mr. Gainor.

13 THE COURT: Well, I was very surprised by the -- very

14 surprised by the deposition testimony, when he clearly was

15 toying with the questioner.

16 MR. HEISENBERG: And I believe that your Honor --

17 THE COURT: I've seen that before.

18 MR. HEISENBERG: Right.

19 And I believe that your Honor's questioning has

20 clearly communicated to the jury your Honor's view of the

21 facts. As you know --

22 THE COURT: I didn't intend for it to do so, but go

23 ahead.

24 MR. HEISENBERG: Well, I think in several instances,

25 at least from my perspective, the Court has been expressing its

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1 skepticism of Mr. Gainor's testimony in an unfavorable manner.

2 THE COURT: Well, I was expressing my view that he was

3 toying with the questioner, yes.

4 MR. HEISENBERG: And the jury is the finder of fact in

5 this case; it should be reaching its own conclusions

6 independent of the Court's.

7 THE COURT: I agree.

8 MR. HEISENBERG: We've already heard evidence about

9 the fact that the Court has reached its own conclusions on the

10 preliminary injunction.

11 THE COURT: And I think I've instructed them that it

12 was just preliminary, and that was consistent with our sidebars

13 or my rulings prior.

14 MR. HEISENBERG: Right.

15 And combined with the Court's immediate and multiple

16 instances of questioning Mr. Gainor sharply about his

17 recollection and things of that sort. I would bravely ask that

18 the Court perhaps issue a -- or it is a delicate issue, your

19 Honor, but --

20 THE COURT: Go ahead. You don't have to be delicate

21 with me.

22 MR. HEISENBERG: But I do believe that the Court

23 has -- perhaps unintentionally -- expressed to the jury its own

24 view of Mr. Gainor's credibility, which is ultimately at the

25 center of this case.

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1 Given the fact he is here, you are right,

2 Mr. Heisenberg. I will allow it.

3 I am going to admit it.

4 (Defendants' Exhibit OG received in evidence)

5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, just so you know,

6 when you are shown this group of documents, which this witness

7 has said are accurate representations of a screenshot, the red

8 arrows were put by him. They are not what was on the

9 screenshot. You understand? If he is asked, he will explain

10 what that's all about, but the screenshot, if I understand his

11 testimony, the website did not have those red arrows on it.

12 Do you understand?

13 OK. Let's proceed.

14 Q. Starting with the first page, Mr. Gainor, what do we see on

15 this page?

16 A. On the left side of the screen is where you would refine

17 the events you are looking at, so there is a lot of different

18 filters to search by event, venue, filters to see what's

19 currently being autopriced in your inventory, what's currently

20 at the floor, what ticket rules might not have comparables and

21 so on.

22 THE COURT: Were all these taken at the same time?

23 THE WITNESS: Not at the same time. It would have

24 been throughout my course of usage of Stage Front.

25 THE COURT: What was the purpose of your taking these?

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1 THE WITNESS: To show them either bugs, mostly bugs,

2 or just some new ideas I had and how I recommend they would

3 implement them.

4 Q. You were describing the event list on the left. To the

5 right of that there is certain information. What does that

6 show?

7 A. That shows the event for the ticket listing, the particular

8 ticket listing that you are looking at, and then the ticket

9 attributes for those tickets.

10 Q. Below that there is something which has saved rules,

11 comparables, and rules.

12 Do you see that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. What was the function of that?

15 A. This is how -- once you have selected a ticket, this is how

16 you would build an autopricing rule. Yes. It was to build an

17 autopricing rule.

18 Q. To the right of that then there are zones, sections, and

19 rows. What was the purpose of that?

20 A. That is to define the comparables that you wanted to

21 autoprice against.

22 THE COURT: That you wanted to price against, right?

23 THE WITNESS: It is to autoprice. This is how you

24 build an autopricing rule in Stage Front.

25 MR. HEISENBERG: If you could go, George, to the page

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1 78 at the bottom.

2 Q. You see certain items that are highlighted in yellow on

3 this page 3. What do they show?

4 A. The yellow represents that you have -- you currently have

5 an active autopricing rule on that particular ticket listing.

6 Q. In Stage Front in what manner were you able to change

7 prices for your price rules?

8 A. Well, you could either type in a price manually in line for

9 that ticket listing, or you can configure a rule to autoprice

10 and do it for you based on the market data from StubHub.

11 Q. On page 13, there is some information at the bottom where

12 it says -- at the very bottom portion of this, what does that

13 represent?

14 A. Are you talking about where the ticket listings are below?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. That represents all of the tickets that you own for the

17 event that you've selected up top there.

18 Q. And then there is, on the very last page, you see there

19 there is something under rules. What is that showing?

20 A. This is the screen you would land on after the screen we

21 saw earlier where you define your comparables. This is where

22 you determine your pricing criteria and you specify, if you

23 want, your splits to automatically adjust as you sell tickets,

24 if you want to be a dollar cheaper, what you want your price

25 floor to be, which is basically saying, I don't ever want to be

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1 priced below this price floor automatically. And you could set

2 up your cycle speeds on this screen as well.

3 Q. Did Stage Front have an ability to create ticket groups?

4 A. Yes, you could.

5 Q. How would that work?

6 A. You would take multiple listings and you would group them,

7 and then you would define how many you want broadcasted at a

8 certain time, which we have referred to as autobroadcast, and

9 you can also stagger out the prices of all the tickets in that

10 group.

11 Q. Did the Stage Front product also have an ability to create

12 season ticket groups?

13 A. Yes, it did.

14 Q. After you finished using Stage Front, did you use any other

15 autopricers?

16 MS. MUNOZ: Objection.

17 Withdrawn.

18 THE COURT: It's how they are defining it.

19 A. We used -- when we first switched over to Skybox, we used

20 goPricer, but, again, there has been a lot of back and forth on

21 whether it's an autopricer or not.

22 Q. Did there come a time that you used a product called

23 SeatMetrics?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After using SeatMetrics for a period of time, were you

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 interested in -- withdrawn.

2 Could you explain what this document is, sir?

3 A. Yes. This is an e-mail from myself to, it looks like

4 Guinio is on it as well and two representatives, the owner of

5 Vivid seats and I believe his assistant.

6 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, I would ask that this be

7 introduced into evidence.

8 MS. MUNOZ: No objection.

9 Which one are you trying to admit, KW or KY?

10 THE COURT: It's on the screen. The problem with the

11 screen is, he is never showed a full document.

12 MS. MUNOZ: No objection.

13 THE COURT: Admitted without objection.

14 (Defendant's Exhibit KW received in evidence)

15 MR. HEISENBERG: I'll move on.

16 THE COURT: Do you want that withdrawn?

17 MR. HEISENBERG: No. I'm happy to have it in

18 evidence, but I don't need to take the Court's time with

19 questions.

20 THE COURT: Move on.

21 Q. Now, in this case you remember that there was an occasion

22 in September when you answered Mr. Panzer's questions about how

23 Broker Genius loaded pages. How does that relate to the claims

24 in this case, as you understand it?

25 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

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1 Q. How does your answering of questions to Mr. Panzer relate

2 to the development of Command Center?

3 THE COURT: Sustained as to form.

4 Q. Do you recall Ms. Munoz's questions about Mr. Panzer asking

5 you a question about the Broker Genius site in September?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. Does that relate to your development of Command Center?

8 A. No, it did not at all.

9 Q. We saw, when we finished yesterday, the advertising e-mail

10 you received about the cycle times for certain events at Broker

11 Genius.

12 Do you recall that, sir?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. How did you at Seat Scouts determine the internal cycle

15 times to use?

16 A. We started with, I think I said yesterday, two basic tiers

17 as we were beta testing. I believe it was every five minutes

18 for events within 10 or 11 days, and then anything over that, I

19 think, was every half hour. And then my engineers continued to

20 refine those cycles as we brought on more users and needed to

21 stay under the StubHub rate limits.

22 THE COURT: What do you mean, StubHub rate limits?

23 THE WITNESS: When using a third-party API to request

24 data, there is typically what are called rate limits on it,

25 which is typically a restriction in terms of, for instance, how

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1 many calls you can make per minute, per second, and so on so

2 you don't overwhelm their servers.

3 MR. HEISENBERG: Could you pull up Exhibit LM.

4 Q. Does looking at Exhibit LM refresh your recollection as to

5 the process of how you went through determining how to comply

6 with their rate limits?

7 A. Yes, it does.

8 Q. What is your recollection, sir?

9 A. It looks like my chief technology officer, when we started

10 to get throttled a bit from StubHub, sent an e-mail to the

11 gentleman at StubHub who was responsible for their APIs. And

12 we asked exactly if he could explain exactly how their rate

13 limiting worked so we can make sure we abide on our end and

14 adjust our cycles to match that.

15 Q. Around what time period did that occur?

16 A. This e-mail was October 9, 2017.

17 MR. HEISENBERG: Now, let me ask you, George, if you

18 could pull up Plaintiff's Exhibit 464.

19 Before we do that, while we are in our set, can you

20 pull up Exhibit FB.

21 Q. Do you recognize the bottom portion of this e-mail, sir?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. What is this bottom portion?

24 A. This was the e-mail yesterday that I believe we spoke about

25 where one of the representatives at Broker Genius reached out

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1 to me, looks like September 8 of 2017, asking if I wanted to

2 reexplore Broker Genius and see -- says they have come a long

3 way and if I would be interested in seeing their new features

4 and programs.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: If we can scroll up.

6 Q. What was your response to that?

7 A. I said: Hi Joe, I really appreciate you reaching out. To

8 be completely transparent, I am launching an autopricer in a

9 few weeks, so I doubt you want to do a demo for me, as much as

10 I would like one, smiley face.

11 Q. You registered the domain name Seat Scouts in 2016.

12 Do you recall that, sir?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. For what purpose did you do that?

15 A. I had been telling my employer Guinio at the time that I

16 wanted to launch a ticket -- consumer-facing ticketing website

17 that was geared more towards larger groups and helping

18 customers more easily find larger groups of tickets together

19 because there wasn't really any site that did that at the time.

20 Q. Did that launch under any other different domain name?

21 A. No. Guinio has a lot of other ticket sites, but we never

22 used that particular concept.

23 Q. Did you derive any features of the Command Center from your

24 use of Autopricer Version 3 in May of 2016?

25 A. No, absolutely not. All of the features in there were all

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1 something we did manually for 18 years. They were -- in all of

2 the tools I had been using even prior to them, there was

3 nothing to derive.

4 Q. Are there any features in Command Center that are not, to

5 your knowledge, in Autopricer Version 3?

6 A. Yes. I put a list together the other day just using our

7 Version 1, and I think I counted up to almost 75 features in

8 Command Center that were not in the Autopricer Version 3 that I

9 used.

10 Q. What happened to Seat Scouts' business after the May

11 injunction?

12 A. Well, we lost at least 20 clients because we had to remove

13 the autopricing -- last autopricing step. We had to discount

14 our product. And we had to give away another free month. So

15 we had lost a lot of goodwill with our clients and certainly a

16 lot of revenue.

17 Q. Do you have any product at this point, any autopricing

18 product on the market?

19 A. No, we did not.

20 Q. What is the impact of that on the company?

21 A. Well, Guinio and I have had to continue to put in our

22 entire life savings to make sure --

23 THE COURT: What is the impact on the company, sir, on

24 the company?

25 THE WITNESS: Well, we have certainly had to go reach

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1 out to all our clients and let them know they wouldn't be able

2 to use our tool. We have had a significant impact on their

3 companies. And we have had no revenue as a result since that

4 time frame.

5 THE COURT: Since the injunction was issued Seat

6 Scouts has had zero revenue?

7 THE WITNESS: We have had virtually no revenue. We

8 have some in Reconciler, but we were giving it away for free

9 with Command Center. We have had virtually no revenue now.

10 THE COURT: What does virtually no revenue mean?

11 THE WITNESS: Less than $5,000 a month, I believe.

12 Q. What has been the impact of the injunction on your

13 customers?

14 A. Their businesses have been significantly impacted as they

15 lost a tool that they hugely relied on to run their day-to-day

16 business.

17 Q. What has been the impact of this process on your family?

18 A. It's had a huge impact over the last 14 months. We have

19 certainly been in New York City dealing with these procedures

20 over both holidays the last year. I've had to take on personal

21 loans and list my house in the market for sale to make sure

22 that our employees continue to get paid on time and get their

23 benefits.

24 I got married during this and the injunction came down

25 one week before my wedding, so I certainly was not able to help

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1 case for the purpose of your analysis; is that correct?

2 A. I don't think I stated it that way. What I assume is that

3 there's effectively a finding of liability of what the alleged

4 claims are.

5 Q. Now, if competition was fair, the reduction of prices for

6 consumers that you described, that's just basic economics,

7 isn't it? Isn't that just capitalism working the way it's

8 supposed to?

9 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

10 THE COURT: I'll allow it. It's cross.

11 If you can answer it, you may.

12 A. I think you're talking fairly broadly.

13 Here we're talking about a certain set of

14 circumstances to which I have been asked to assess damages; and

15 so I'm not guessing one way or the other. It's an assumption

16 that there is, in fact, a finding that there has been unfair

17 competition or that the alleged actions, there was a breach of

18 the contract.

19 Q. Yes. And I'm asking you now, for the purposes of the jury,

20 to assume the opposite; to assume that there's not a finding,

21 that the jury does not find unfair competition. And my

22 question to you, sir, was that in that case, under that

23 assumption, isn't the movement of prices that you described

24 simply the basic workings of capitalism, of competition?

25 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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 J1EMBRO5 Nitze - Direct
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1 A. I started with Mr. Gainor's 2012 Core product.

2 Q. Remind us again, what was the Core product?

3 A. Core was a broker-owned marketplace that served as its own

4 point of sale that let you buy and sell inventory with other

5 brokers.

6 Q. What did you find with respect to whether or not these

7 components were in the Core product?

8 A. I found that these components were in the Core product.

9 Q. Would you demonstrate that?

10 A. Yes. I believe we went over this earlier, so, quickly,

11 there is an event list. From that, you go to an inventory

12 list. From that, you can select comps from the secondary

13 market using an interactive seating chart or, if you look there

14 on the right, by zones, sections, rows, or broadcast status.

15 May I put this exhibit down?

16 Q. Yes. I will take it.

17 Apart from the Core product, did you look at any other

18 products that Mr. Gainor had developed?

19 A. Yes. I looked at his 2015 Event Watcher wire frames and

20 also the functioning 2015 Event Watcher autopurchaser.

21 Q. What did you find in that respect?

22 A. That these components existed there as well.

23 Q. Could you demonstrate that?

24 A. Sure. These are Professor Koskinen's slides where he is

25 pointing out items that he believes are missing from the 2015

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 wire frames. So I thought these were useful to point out that

2 he is not challenging that there was an event list.

3 THE COURT: No, no, no. Just answer the question.

4 A. Clearly, on this wire frame there is an event list. There

5 is an inventory list. There is the ability to select comps by

6 zones, sections, and rows and the ability to set pricing rules.

7 THE COURT: Your job is to answer the questions.

8 THE WITNESS: I apologize, your Honor.

9 THE COURT: Not to make the case for one party or the

10 other. You can do that only in the context of answering the

11 questions.

12 Q. Did you look at whether or not the Event Watcher design

13 documents, apart from the wire frames, indicated anything about

14 Mr. Gainor's knowledge?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. What did you find about whether or not it did?

17 A. So I reviewed all of the Pivotal Tracker stories that were

18 associated with the 2015 conception of Event Watcher. I read

19 through each one.

20 Q. What did you find with respect to the actual substance of

21 the Event Watcher design documents and how it might later

22 relate to Mr. Gainor's later work?

23 A. I found that there were very detailed explanations of how

24 each component would work individually and together to

25 accomplish both autopurchasing and autopricing, including how

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 you would apply rules to a group.

2 Q. How exactly does the Event Watcher apply the concept of

3 applying rules to a group?

4 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

5 THE COURT: If she knows, she may answer.

6 MR. MELMAN: Can we get some clarification about which

7 Event Watcher we are talking about?

8 THE COURT: Fair enough.

9 Q. The slide is titled 2015 Event Watcher autopricer Pivotal

10 Tracker. Which product are you talking about?

11 A. Event Watcher from 2015.

12 Q. And are these the sum of the Pivotal Tracker entries for

13 that product?

14 A. Yes. I could not fit all of them on the screen.

15 Q. So you were discussing the concept of applying rules to a

16 group, I believe. Does the 2015 Event Watcher Pivotal Tracker

17 entries have any provisions for that?

18 MR. MELMAN: Objection.

19 THE COURT: Is your question, does the 2015 Event

20 Watcher Pivotal Tracker entries apply rules to a group? Is

21 that what your question is?

22 Q. Does it have a section that addresses the provisions or

23 rules for a group?

24 THE COURT: I'll allow that.

25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Can you point us to where we would find those.

2 A. Yes. It's a little hard to read in Excel. This also might

3 be a little hard to read. But the story is called --

4 MR. MELMAN: Objection, your Honor. We object to this

5 current slide. This is a screenshot of something that we have

6 objected to and I know that defendants have agreed to withdraw

7 from their presentation.

8 THE COURT: It's true, Mr. Heisenberg. Let's move on.

9 A. I have the plain text of the story from the Excel.

10 THE COURT: Ms. Nitze.

11 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

12 THE COURT: Ms. Nitze, answer the questions.

13 THE WITNESS: I apologize.

14 THE COURT: You are not one of the litigants. You are

15 a witness who is allowed to answer opinion questions in the

16 area that I have qualified you as an expert. Right?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

18 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, what's currently on the

19 screen --

20 THE COURT: Just a moment. I think Mr. Heisenberg is

21 moving on.

22 Am I correct, sir?

23 MR. HEISENBERG: This document is right in Defendants'

24 Exhibit -- I believe it is E, which is the Pivotal Tracker

25 entry. This is one --

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J1FVBRO1 Nitze - cross

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And I'm going to direct you to line 3 on page 89.

3 I asked you: "And you agree with me that the goPricer

4 product does not have the ability to select comparable tickets

5 against which a rule should be run?"

6 And your answer was: "Yes."

7 And then I asked you "again, yes, you do agree with

8 me?"

9 And you answered: "Yes, I agree with you."

10 That was your testimony, right?

11 A. It was, but I misspoke.

12 Q. You misspoke during that testimony?

13 A. Yes. I can show you the screen in goPricer, if that's

14 helpful.

15 Q. I don't need that.

16 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

17 THE COURT: Up to now I was pleased to see you were

18 following my instructions very carefully --

19 THE WITNESS: I apologize, your Honor.

20 THE COURT: -- on cross-examination by Mr. Melman, and

21 you were answering yes or no. I was trying to get you to do

22 that yesterday, to no avail; but I'm glad overnight you're now

23 following. So let's stick to that to the extent you can.

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.

25 A. I apologize, I lost the page. It was 89?

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

(212) 805-0300

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J1FVBRO3 "Erik Pancheri"

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

2 (Witness excused)

3 THE COURT: Next witness for defense.

4 MR. HEISENBERG: We call Erik Pancheri by deposition.

5 THE COURT: All right.

6 Is this going to be with reading or video?

7 MR. HEISENBERG: Reading, your Honor.

8 THE COURT: All right.

9 MR. HEISENBERG: May I begin, your Honor?

10 THE COURT: Yes, please do.

11 MR. HEISENBERG: This is the testimony of Erik

12 Pancheri.

13 Mr. Hinckley, could you turn to page 5, line 11.

14 MR. HINCKLEY: Yes.

15 (Reading)

16 "Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Pancheri. My name is Chris

17 Heisenberg. I'm an attorney with Seat Scouts. And I would

18 like to ask you, because you're doing this telephonically and

19 remotely, that if you could just state your name for the record

20 and where you're located for purposes of this deposition.

21 "A. Erik Pancheri, 4141 Chutlin Drive, La Jolla, California,

22 92117.

23 "Q. And do you understand that you've been subpoenaed to

24 provide a little bit of testimony about a dispute between

25 Broker Genius and Seat Scouts?

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J1FVBRO3 "Erik Pancheri"

1 "A. Yes.

2 "Q. What is the name of the company that you're with?

3 "A. REPS & Company.

4 "Q. What is the business of REPS & Company?

5 "A. We are a ticket brokerage.

6 "Q. How long has REPS & Company been in business?

7 "A. I've had a few different companies since the summer of

8 2015."

9 MR. HEISENBERG: I think you skipped a line.

10 MR. HINCKLEY: Oh, I'm sorry.

11 "A. Since November 2017.

12 "Q. And before you were -- and before that, were you also in

13 the ticket business?

14 "A. Yes.

15 "Q. For how long have you been in the ticket business?

16 "A. I've had a few different companies since the summer of

17 2015."

18 MR. HEISENBERG: All right. If I could ask you then

19 to turn to page 9, line 6.

20 MR. HINCKLEY: Yes.

21 "Q. Sure. For purposes of gathering your background, when you

22 said 'autopricer,' have you used prior autopricers?"

23 MR. HEISENBERG: Mr. Melman objects.

24 "A. I can answer though, right?

25 "Q. Yes.

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J1FVBRO3 "Erik Pancheri"

1 "A. We use Broker Genius's autopricer and Stage Front's

2 autopricer as well.

3 "Q. When you say that Stage Front was an autopricer, what --

4 can you describe the process by which Stage Front autopriced."

5 MR. HEISENBERG: Mr. Melman objects.

6 And then I say: "You can go ahead and answer.

7 "A. Stage Front used that criteria or rules to your listings

8 and it automatically pushes your prices."

9 MR. HEISENBERG: All right. Let me ask you to turn to

10 page 18, line 20.

11 "Q. Is there a short synopsis of the process in Event Watcher

12 that you can run through as to what data is used to come up

13 with a calculated price?"

14 MR. MELMAN: Objection. This portion is not

15 designated.

16 THE COURT: Talk to each other, not to the jury.

17 (Counsel conferred)

18 MR. HEISENBERG: Question on line 20, line 14.

19 "Q. If you could go ahead and answer. Were you speaking about

20 the Stage Front product before?

21 "A. The answer to the Stage Front question was yes.

22 "Q. Now, you described Stage Front as an autopricer. I may

23 have asked this before, what did that mean in terms of when

24 they suggested the suggested or calculated price was derived

25 using that process you described with the costs? What would

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J1FVBRO3 "Erik Pancheri"

1 happen to that price?

2 "A. It would -- so Stage Front is a point of sale and an

3 autopricer. So when it tells you what price, you just

4 automatically push your prices to the marketplaces.

5 "Q. How would you compare the Stage Front product to other

6 products that you've used, such as Broker Genius's autopricer?

7 "A. My answer is very similar."

8 MR. HEISENBERG: Let me ask you to turn to page 22,

9 line 14.

10 "Q. Mr. Pancheri, apart from Stage Front, are you familiar

11 with a company or product called Qcue?

12 "A. Yes. We tested out and I've gotten demos from Qcue.

13 "Q. And could you describe for the record what Qcue does.

14 "A. Qcue is similar in that you set criteria and it prices

15 your inventory for you based on the comparables in the market.

16 But it has more data analytics than the tool -- than other

17 tools I had seen at the time.

18 "Q. Could you walk us through both the Qcue in terms of

19 pricing the tickets -- are you familiar with the term 'dynamic

20 ticket-pricing'?

21 "A. Yes.

22 "Q. And can you just give a brief description of what that

23 involves, as far as you understand?

24 "A. I believe dynamic pricing is when teams are -- were

25 generally like the content holder dynamically prices their

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J1FVBRO3 "Erik Pancheri"

1 inventory based on how well it's selling to try to get the most

2 value out of every ticket in the venue.

3 "Q. So in a situation where the broker is offering tickets and

4 pricing them, what is the process by which the broker

5 determines what it wants to price or to price with or price

6 against as comps?

7 "A. When you choose the known section, rows, and stuff like

8 that, and then how you want to price against those comparables,

9 you choose the comparables based on the row, seat, section, and

10 such.

11 "Q. Is the goal there to determine -- "

12 THE COURT: Talk to each other.

13 (Counsel conferred)

14 "Q. Sure. We were talking about zones, sections, and rows.

15 Can you describe why a broker would want to know or would want

16 to know that in terms of pricing or selecting the comparables

17 against which it wants to price?"

18 MR. HINCKLEY: There's a lot of colloquy.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: And then I pick up on 25 and say:

20 "Let me go one more time. The exhibit with Bates numbers of

21 SS79572, do you have that there, Mr. Pancheri?

22 "A. Yes, this is the one, the Billy Joel event. The Billy

23 Joel event?

24 "Q. Correct. Do you recognize not necessarily this exhibit,

25 but the interface that is depicted here?

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1 "A. Yes. It's Stage Front.

2 "Q. And you'll see that the dates on these are for March of

3 2015. Is that approximately the time during which you were

4 using the product of Stage Front?

5 "A. No, that was before I was using Stage Front.

6 "Q. Okay. So you used Stage Front a little bit later?

7 "A. Yeah. This looks exactly like it did when I used it. I

8 used it toward the end of 2016, I believe mid 2016.

9 "Q. Could you walk us -- "

10 MR. HEISENBERG: And then there's an objection. And

11 it picks up again.

12 "Q. Could you walk us through Exhibit 1 and explain to the

13 jury how this process would work, both how a event is picked,

14 how the comps are then selected.

15 "A. Yes. So you find your event using search filters or I

16 believe there's just a list of events as well. So you click

17 the event that you want to see. And then it goes into more

18 detail of the event and shows you what listings you have

19 available to be priced for that event. Then you select the

20 listing that you want to price and you select the comparables

21 on the market.

22 "Q. Are the comparables -- where are those depicted in this

23 screen?

24 "A. On the bottom portion of the screen.

25 "Q. Okay. And in the settings there, what are those items

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1 that are identified? There's something called Instant

2 Download, LMS, and UPS?

3 "A. Yes. So there is the stop type, which is the delivery

4 type of ticket. That's the splits which -- there's the splits,

5 which is the quantity of the tickets. There's exclude trades,

6 which is you can exclude certain types of seats from being in

7 your criteria. There are zones to choose from. There are

8 sections not shown in this picture. But once you click on

9 next, on zones, it shows you the sections. Then you choose the

10 sections, hit 'next,' and it would show you the rows to choose

11 from.

12 "Q. Just to flush that last portion out, the zones, once you

13 identified and clicked on a particular zone, then the next

14 narrower topic or listing of tickets comes from StubHub

15 listings so that you can select these?

16 "A. It will show you the sections within that zone that you

17 choose.

18 "Q. And then once you selected the sections, then the rows get

19 populated in the field next?

20 "A. Correct. And then there are -- there's the ability to

21 list all rows.

22 "Q. Now, on the left side -- well, first of all, in that box

23 that says 'comparables,' that looks like there's a tab and

24 there are tabs to the left and to the right of that. Once says

25 'stage rules' and the other says 'rules.' What are those?

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1 "A. I'm not seeing what you're talking about.

2 "Q. On the bottom portion.

3 "A. Oh, now I see it. I'm not sure what those are.

4 "Q. Did you have the ability in Stage Front to create rules so

5 that once the comparables were selected, that there would be

6 some form of process applied to those?

7 "A. Yes.

8 "Q. What were those? Can you just briefly give a description

9 of what -- "

10 THE COURT: Sir, because you're reading, people tend

11 to go fast. Slow down a bit.

12 MR. HEISENBERG: Sure.

13 "Q. What were those? Can you just briefly give us a

14 description of what rules are so a layman can understand them?

15 "A. I believe the rules are, like, I would want to price 1

16 percent below all the other comparable listings or 1 percent

17 higher and similar things like that, and the price floor and

18 the price ceiling for how low or for how high you want the

19 bottom listing to go.

20 "Q. And how does that compare to the process that Broker

21 Genius uses in its AutoPricer?

22 "A. Very similar.

23 "Q. Now, on the left column in the screen, do you see that it

24 says 'filters.' Is that a way in which to filter for the Billy

25 Joel concert, among all of the inventory that you have?

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1 "A. Yes.

2 "Q. And then below that is a section where it toggles, where

3 you can toggle them on and off for autopriced, and then at

4 floor, no comparables, and in error.

5 "Focusing on the autoprice one, what was the function

6 of that?

7 "A. I believe that would show you any events or listings that

8 are either being autopriced or not being autopriced, depending

9 on what toggle option you choose.

10 "Q. Once you selected in Stage Front the comparables by

11 filtering by zones, sections, and rows, and then you have the

12 rules, as you described it, where a new price is calculated

13 based on either percentage or dollar amount, what happens to

14 that new price?

15 "A. The new price gets chosen based upon those rules and it's

16 pushed to the marketplace.

17 "Q. Is that automatically or manually?

18 "A. Automatically.

19 "Q. So the process that we just went through with Exhibit 1,

20 is that the process that led you to -- led you -- that led to

21 you describing Stage Front as an autopricer?

22 "A. Yes.

23 "Q. And that process, how -- withdrawn.

24 "Now, to contrast this process that we just looked at

25 with Command Center, did Command Center follow this same basic

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1 format for -- in its autopricing?

2 "A. Yes.

3 "Q. And for purposes of making sure that we know what items

4 you are describing as being one and the other, can you describe

5 the process within Command Center as to how the suggested price

6 or the calculated price was derived? Was there an event list?

7 "A. Yes, yes, there was.

8 "Q. In comparison to this, would you tell us which of the

9 elements, the events, the inventory list, and then the section,

10 row, and the like existed in Command Center?

11 "A. I believe all of it existed in Command Center.

12 "Q. And then in comparison to Event Watcher, does Event

13 Watcher do all of the things that are depicted in the screen on

14 Stage Front?

15 "A. Yes."

16 MR. HEISENBERG: I believe that's the read.

17 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

18 (Counsel conferred)

19 MR. HEISENBERG: I'm going to ask you to turn to page

20 35.

21 MR. HINCKLEY: Yes.

22 MR. HEISENBERG: Line 14.

23 MR. HINCKLEY: Yes.

24 (Reading)

25 "Q. Just a reminder, by my name is Daniel Melman. I'm an

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1 MR. HEISENBERG: The provision as it has been

2 interpreted and in the interpretation proffered by the

3 plaintiffs of the word derived and/or derivative work in this

4 case encompasses deriving concepts that are not proprietary to

5 the plaintiff. And for a provision to preclude someone, either

6 an employee or a licensee, from using concepts that are not

7 protected to the company makes this clause an overly broad,

8 noncompetition agreement.

9 THE COURT: No, it's not. I understand that argument.

10 MR. HEISENBERG: I'll cite the Crye v. Duro case.

11 THE COURT: Put the cite into the record.

12 MR. HEISENBERG: It is the district court decision

13 which explains the theory by Judge Cote. It is at --

14 THE COURT: That's all right. We will have it. It's

15 been referred to before.

16 I am denying the motion in regard to the breach of

17 contract.

18 What's the misappropriation theory?

19 MR. HEISENBERG: We also would like to mention that

20 there is a preemption under the patent and copyright law for

21 the breach of contract claim and also the misappropriation

22 claims.

23 THE COURT: Next.

24 MR. HEISENBERG: Third, with regard to the

25 misappropriation claim, as the Court's preliminary instructions

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1 I believe indicate, that the property that was misappropriated

2 must be proprietary or the sole commercial advantage owned by

3 the party that it's misappropriated from.

4 THE COURT: That's in the charge.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. In this case, your Honor, the

6 finding in Zalta that this was not a trade secret, and has been

7 reinforced during the testimony of the witnesses, is there was

8 no protection --

9 THE COURT: Again, I understand the argument. That's

10 up to the jury. It can still be proprietary and not a trade

11 secret, but I understand the argument. I'm denying the motion.

12 Let's move on.

13 MR. HEISENBERG: With regard to the evidence in this

14 case, there is no evidence of any misappropriation or

15 derivation of the following components: Evidence was

16 uncontradicted that the Stage Front product in 2015 and the

17 Event Watcher product in 2015 contained the elements that have

18 been claimed to have been misappropriated in this case, that

19 being the functional autopricer pricing rules, that is, the

20 event list going to the inventory list, going to the zones,

21 sections, rows, going to the creation of rules, and including

22 additional features of a group feature, even as defined by them

23 to have an anchor listing with staggered-out prices and

24 seasons.

25 That evidence was unrefuted by anybody and their

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1 cross-references here. We're talking about the preliminary

2 injunction opinion -- oh, you have the typed script, is that

3 it? Because I have the published version.

4 MR. MELMAN: I don't have the published version.

5 THE COURT: And I don't have the typed script.

6 Help me.

7 MS. MUÑOZ: May I approach?

8 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you.

9 Yes.

10 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, Mr. Heisenberg is reading

11 from the portion of the Court's opinion regarding an analysis

12 of the evidence.

13 THE COURT: What page?

14 MR. MELMAN: I believe on page 37.

15 MR. HEISENBERG: 36.

16 MR. MELMAN: Well, the language about obvious is --

17 THE COURT: Mr. Heisenberg, tell me what you want me

18 to add.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: We would request the language that

20 your Honor has on page 36 of the opinion, which says: If

21 something is truly obvious, that is strong --

22 THE COURT: Just a moment. Yes, the last paragraph.

23 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes. So that the first line of that,

24 which says: If something is truly obvious, that is strong

25 circumstantial evidence that it is traceable to a person's own

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1 independent knowledge or intuition.

2 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, that part of the Court's --

3 THE COURT: Just a moment.

4 And where are you putting that?

5 MR. HEISENBERG: It would fit in right when you're

6 discussing the traceability, so footnote -- the line that has

7 footnote 28 in it, where you say: The commonalties present in

8 a later-created product are traceable to the earlier one.

9 And then I think, in all fairness, it requires that

10 the countervailing legal issues of what would not be traceable,

11 as your Honor has articulated them in the decision, it would be

12 fair to put there to give the jury some contrast.

13 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, may I?

14 THE COURT: No.

15 (Pause)

16 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Melman.

17 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, the portion of the PI

18 decision that Mr. Heisenberg is pointing the Court relates to

19 circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence is not an

20 element of breach of the terms of use.

21 THE COURT: All right. I'm not adding that phrase.

22 What else, Mr. Heisenberg?

23 MR. HEISENBERG: Similarly, we would ask that the

24 Court's statements on 34 as to items that are not --

25 THE COURT: Are you in the preliminary injunction

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1 opinion --

2 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, your Honor.

3 THE COURT: -- or do you mean in the charge?

4 MR. HEISENBERG: I'm sorry, I mean in the preliminary

5 injunction decision.

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 MR. HEISENBERG: Where the Court references items that

8 are not traceable, such as elements were obvious, were known in

9 the industry, independent of Broker Genius's AutoPricer, or

10 were attributable to Gainor's own industry experience.

11 THE COURT: And where do you propose I put that?

12 MR. HEISENBERG: That same place, in order to

13 identify --

14 THE COURT: I understand.

15 Plaintiff?

16 MR. MELMAN: Nothing that Mr. Heisenberg read is an

17 element of breach of contract. What Mr. Heisenberg effectively

18 is asking the Court --

19 THE COURT: No, I agree. I'm going to keep it the way

20 it is.

21 What else?

22 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, the statement is -- goes

23 down the road of explaining to the jury what a term means.

24 THE COURT: Yes.

25 MR. HEISENBERG: So explaining what the term

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1 "derived," which, as we've established, the real case here is

2 derivative work, "derived" is not one of the terms. And if we

3 are going to leave it open, we're not going to give the jury

4 the counter to what "derive" doesn't mean, then I think it's

5 prejudicial to explain to the jury what "derived" does mean.

6 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, the Court explained what the

7 terms of the contract mean starting on page 22 of the PI

8 decision. That's the law of the case. The only elements

9 related to --

10 THE COURT: I want to give the jury an evenhanded

11 statement of the law. All this is is the elements of the

12 breach of contract.

13 But what Mr. Heisenberg is saying, I think correctly,

14 is that derive isn't an element of the contract -- I'm sorry,

15 derive -- how do I phrase it.

16 He's saying I'm starting to define a term in the

17 contract. Once I go down that route, he says, you have to

18 describe circumstances that the jury may find present where

19 it's not derived, that is, it's obvious. So it's not derived

20 from what's obvious. He's saying once I go down the route of

21 defining "derived," I should give the other side.

22 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, the PI decision clearly

23 states what is required for derivation, in Section B, the terms

24 of the contract. The later section is simply an analysis of

25 the evidence that was before the Court during the PI hearing.

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1 THE COURT: Listen to me. Mr. Heisenberg is saying

2 once I start defining terms, if I said "derived" means

3 something, I should tell the jury what "derived" doesn't mean.

4 MR. MELMAN: I don't believe that that's what the PI

5 decision says. I believe that the portion where Mr. Heisenberg

6 is reading from is the Court's analysis --

7 THE COURT: Forget the PI decision. The jury doesn't

8 know about the preliminary injunction decision, simply the fact

9 that there was a preliminary injunction.

10 This is simply trying to tell the jury what the law

11 is.

12 MR. MELMAN: Right. And the Court already decided as

13 a matter of law in this case that the terms -- that the TOU in

14 the section regarding derivation requires two things: That the

15 products be similar and that there be traceability. Those are

16 the two elements from derivation. That's the law of the case.

17 THE COURT: All right. I don't think you are

18 listening to me. Nonetheless, I think this adequately states

19 what the law is.

20 Mr. Heisenberg, what else?

21 MR. HEISENBERG: I'm not sure, because I understood

22 your Honor to be saying that once you go down the road of

23 giving --

24 THE COURT: No, but I think the way I have it here

25 adequately describes what "derive" means. And you certainly

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1 can make your argument to this jury that if it's known in the

2 industry independent, for example, of Broker Genius's

3 AutoPricer, then it's not derived. I don't have to tell the

4 jury that.

5 MR. HEISENBERG: Well, but they are only hearing

6 half --

7 THE COURT: You can play off of this definition when

8 you're making your argument to the jury.

9 MR. HEISENBERG: But I don't think the jury should

10 only be hearing half of the explanation from the Court. Either

11 the Court should leave it open to the jury and say the phrase

12 that you are required to interpret is derivative works, or then

13 give both sides -- both counters of what it means.

14 THE COURT: Well, the phrase that they have to

15 interpret is "derivative work." And I'm saying what a

16 derivative work is there -- is "derived," I'm sorry. I'm

17 saying what "derived" is.

18 Let's move on. You have your exception.

19 MR. HEISENBERG: With the next section -- within that

20 same section we would ask for the language of interpreting the

21 contract against the party that had drafted it. We had

22 submitted it on page 12 of our proposed jury instructions, a

23 pretty standard language in contract cases that where there's

24 an ambiguity, it is to be construed most closely or most

25 directly against the party that drafted the agreement.

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1 That's page 28 with footnote 32. Since that is an element of

2 the claim, I think it is important to highlight that in the

3 actual recitation of the elements.

4 THE COURT: So you want me to have No. 3 say that Drew

5 Gainor and Seat Scouts misappropriated AutoPricer V3 for their

6 own commercial advantage, and that AutoPricer V3 belonged

7 exclusively to plaintiff?

8 MR. HEISENBERG: No. What I was proposing was in ii,

9 where it says, Broker Genius invested labor, skills, and

10 expenditures in developing AutoPricer V3 --

11 THE COURT: And that AutoPricer V3 belonged

12 exclusively to plaintiff. No?

13 MR. HEISENBERG: That the labor, skills, and

14 expenditures -- or I mean "AutoPricer" does belong to them as a

15 trade name; but what's being asked here is about the labor,

16 skills, and expenditures.

17 THE COURT: All right. Wait just a moment.

18 (Pause)

19 THE COURT: No, but your cross-reference to me, sir,

20 was on the third element. You were referring, I thought, to

21 the second paragraph. And the third element explanation on

22 page 28, where I say: In order to satisfy this element, the

23 plaintiff must show that the property or commercial advantage

24 that was misappropriated belonged exclusively to the plaintiff.

25 I thought that's the point you were raising.

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1 of effort, I mean that's every competitor in the world here.

2 The misappropriation is only if they have a

3 proprietary interest in that property that they can protect.

4 Otherwise Burger King is suing McDonald's, because McDonald's

5 has put lots of effort into creating hamburgers.

6 MS. MUÑOZ: Your Honor, that's precisely what

7 "misappropriation" means, taking something without permission

8 that belongs to somebody else.

9 MR. HEISENBERG: Exactly.

10 MS. MUÑOZ: You don't need to add any more than what

11 you've already said in misappropriation. And the elements that

12 you have recited in i to iv are what's required under the law.

13 Mr. Heisenberg would have you add another independent element,

14 which is not required under the law.

15 THE COURT: Well, he wants to highlight the

16 exclusivity aspect of it.

17 MR. HEISENBERG: It's not highlighting it, it's an

18 actual element. I think we briefed it to your Honor, and I

19 think that was why the statement on page 28 has come about, to

20 recognize, as Ms. Muñoz said, the essence of the claim is

21 misappropriating property of someone else. And unless it's

22 property, it's not protectable.

23 THE COURT: All right. Enough. Let me apply my pen.

24 (Pause)

25 THE COURT: And Mr. Heisenberg, if I say "develop the

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1 fruits of the labor, skills, or expenditures that Broker Genius

2 invested in developing AutoPricer V3, and that AutoPricer V3

3 belonged exclusively to plaintiff," your argument is that

4 that's not AutoPricer V3, it's what, the labor, skills, and

5 expenditures that has the exclusivity requirement?

6 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. And what I would just -- I

7 mean that's getting close to it, your Honor. I would simply

8 break it out and say, as an element they have to find that the

9 technology behind AutoPricer V3, which is really what's at

10 issue here, in the misappropriation, that that is a commercial

11 advantage belonging exclusively to Broker Genius.

12 (Pause)

13 THE COURT: I don't think that's what the elements

14 are.

15 Would you prefer, Mr. Heisenberg -- here are two

16 options: That Broker Genius and Seat Scouts, for their own

17 commercial advantage, misappropriated the fruits and labors,

18 skills and expenditures that Broker Genius invested in

19 developing its product. Or would you rather have it say that

20 Broker Genius and Seat Scouts, for their own commercial

21 advantage, misappropriated the fruits of the labor, skills, and

22 expenditures that Broker Genius invested in developing

23 AutoPricer V3, or does it make no difference?

24 (Continued on next page)

25

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1 MR. HEISENBERG: It's the product.

2 THE COURT: That's what we will go with, iii.

3 MS. MUNOZ: Your Honor, it should be Gainor and Seat

4 Scouts, not Broker Genius and Seat Scouts.

5 THE COURT: Thank you. Now all of us have made our

6 error, that Drew Gainor and Seat Scouts. That's what will be

7 in iii.

8 MR. HEISENBERG: Your Honor, if I could make one last

9 run at this and point the Court to Lopresti v. Mass. Mutual

10 Life Insurance Company.

11 THE COURT: Wait just a second because I have a lot of

12 cases here. Let's see if I have that one in front of me, 2006

13 decision. No, I don't. Give me the full cite.

14 MR. HEISENBERG: 820 N.Y.S.2d 275 (2d Dept. 2006). It

15 was in my letter filed on December 23, document No. 334. And

16 what it says is: A claim will fail where a plaintiff cannot

17 demonstrate the bad faith misappropriation of a commercial

18 advantage which belonged exclusively to him, meaning that there

19 has to be some exclusivity or property right on the part of

20 Broker Genius.

21 THE COURT: I say that on page 28.

22 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. But it's an element of the

23 claim.

24 THE COURT: I say that: In order to satisfy this

25 element, the plaintiff must show that the property or

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1 commercial advantage that was misappropriated belonged

2 exclusively to the plaintiff.

3 MR. HEISENBERG: Right. My concern is by listing the

4 elements the jury may come back and say, what are the four

5 elements? I don't see it in there and be unaware --

6 THE COURT: You know what, if that happens, remind me

7 and I'll direct them to everything else that's written. It's

8 just two other pages. It's literally two other pages.

9 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, just for the record, as we

10 noted in our letter to the Court, the Lopresti case addresses

11 unfair competition based on tortious interference, not

12 misappropriation of skills, expenditures and labor.

13 THE COURT: You have my ruling on this. I'm changing

14 iii, but not the body on page 28, and Mr. Heisenberg can make

15 his argument to the jury. I'm telling you, if they come back

16 and want to know what the elements are, I'll refer them to the

17 entire section on pages 27, 28, and 29.

18 Anything else on the rest of this charge?

19 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, on page 29, section 4, in the

20 middle of the paragraph after footnote 35 it says: Bad faith

21 can include signing up for a competitive service under false

22 pretenses.

23 We would just want to make clear that the jury is not

24 confused that that's the only way that they could find bad

25 faith.

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1 profits.

2 MR. MELMAN: Those were described as separate from

3 lost profits.

4 MR. HINCKLEY: There are reasons why you lose profits.

5 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, price erosion and loss of

6 goodwill clearly extend into the future, as Mr. Dell explained

7 in his testimony. Loss of profits relates to the damages that

8 Broker Genius has already incurred.

9 MR. HINCKLEY: If there is speculative future damages,

10 you don't get them.

11 THE COURT: That's what Dell's testimony was all

12 about.

13 MR. MELMAN: Your Honor, we heard testimony about

14 projected earnings. There was nothing speculative about that

15 from Mr. Lucier, from Mr. Ellman --

16 THE COURT: Just a moment.

17 MR. MELMAN: -- and our expert, Mr. Dell.

18 THE COURT: The past price erosion is obviously part

19 of the lost profits. As a matter of fact, that was in his

20 chart. They couldn't charge the same they used to because of

21 the pressure from Seat Scouts.

22 MR. MELMAN: The price erosion, as Mr. Dell explained,

23 extends into the future, as does the loss of goodwill.

24 THE COURT: That's something else.

25 MR. HINCKLEY: Your Honor, I respond that these are

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1 lawyers, paralegals. You met their jury consultant.

2 Defendants do not have that kind of money, especially once they

3 were enjoined and then could no longer offer their product and

4 they could no longer keep the customers who loved their

5 product. It's an uneven fight that you have seen at this

6 trial. The playing field is not even.

7 Now, the fact that Mr. Gainor and Mr. Volpone have

8 decided to continue fighting should tell you a lot about what

9 they believe they did and whether they believe it was in

10 compliance with the contract.

11 Even the Broker Genius customers know what is going on

12 in this litigation. As you can see, this is an e-mail from one

13 of their customers.

14 MS. MUNOZ: Objection.

15 THE COURT: Was this evidence?

16 MS. MUNOZ: No.

17 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes, it is.

18 THE COURT: Let's see if it is. Take it down in the

19 meantime. DX-ED.

20 Do you know what day it was admitted, sir?

21 MR. HEISENBERG: It was admitted on the first day.

22 MS. MUNOZ: Unredacted?

23 MR. HEISENBERG: Yes.

24 THE COURT: Why don't you move on. You will come back

25 to this after it is decided whether it was admitted or not.

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1 Evernote.

2 He passed information to SeatMetrics. He even gave

3 them his login credentials. That's when he thought he was

4 going to copycat the product with them.

5 Three months later, after he signed up with Broker

6 Genius, he registered the Seat Scouts domain name. It's clear

7 from these facts that at the very outset he intended to copy

8 Autopricer Version 3.

9 Then when he couldn't finish it completely, remember

10 he got the illegal access. He got JWT sign-in credentials so

11 he could get back into Autopricer Version 3 so he could finish

12 the groups feature. It's clear Gainor and Seat Scouts used

13 their access to Autopricer Version 3 to copy the architecture,

14 features, functionality, user experience, user interface of

15 Autopricer Version 3.

16 The pièce de résistance, you can't get much better

17 proof of bad faith than when you are ordered by a federal judge

18 to take a product off the market and you have relaunched the

19 very same product with a different name only hours later.

20 That, ladies and gentlemen, is quintessential bad

21 faith. Seat Scouts were held in contempt for violating the

22 preliminary injunction. That is Judge Stein's acknowledgement

23 under the law of Seat Scouts' bad faith.

24 At his deposition Mr. Gainor was asked: Why did you

25 rename the product Event Watcher? He admitted: I wanted to

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1 try to tie it back to the Event Watcher diagrams, the Event

2 Watcher diagrams that he said were completely irrelevant. He

3 didn't use them to build Command Center. But this doppelganger

4 of Command Center, he wanted to make it extremely obvious that

5 that was linked directly to the 2015 wire frames.

6 Who did he want to make it extremely obvious to? I

7 posit it's you, the jury, that he wanted to con. He wanted you

8 to believe that Command Center was somehow linked to the 2015

9 wire frames that he himself said were not relevant.

10 We have proven the fourth element that Drew Gainor and

11 Seat Scouts displayed bad faith in misappropriating Autopricer

12 Version 3.

13 We have proven that Broker Genius' damages for breach

14 of contract are $9 million. We have proven that Broker Genius'

15 damages for misappropriation are $4 million. The total damages

16 are $13 million. That's what we would ask that you return the

17 verdict for.

18 In addition to the quantifiable damages that have been

19 proven, there is a loss of goodwill. How do you put a figure

20 on that? And how do you fix it? Zach Ellman, when he said

21 they, he is talking about Seat Scouts, have fundamentally

22 altered the course of our business and the fallout has been

23 unjustifiably horrible. Even after Seat Scouts was taken off

24 the market, Broker Genius customers are still hearing this

25 frivolous lawsuit resonate. They are still thinking about,

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1 products or elements therein are similar; and two, the

2 commonalties present in the later-created product are traceable

3 to the earlier one.

4 Okay? We've done three of the four elements of the

5 breach of contract claim.

6 Was there a contract? Did Broker Genius perform? Did

7 Drew Gainor breach? And now we go to the fourth element, was

8 Broker Genius damaged?

9 If you determine that a contract was formed between

10 Broker Genius and Gainor, and that Gainor breached the terms of

11 the contract, and that Broker Genius has performed, then you

12 must go on to determine whether Broker Genius has suffered

13 damages as a result of the breach.

14 I'm going to give you instructions on damages a bit

15 later.

16 If you do find that Broker Genius has proven each of

17 the four elements of its breach of contract claim by a

18 preponderance of the evidence, then you must find in favor of

19 Broker Genius. And you'll see, in fact, that's Question No. 1

20 on your verdict form: Has plaintiff Broker Genius proven by a

21 preponderance of the evidence that defendant Drew Gainor

22 breached the terms of use.

23 If, on the other hand, you find that Broker Genius has

24 failed to prove any one of those elements, then you must find

25 for Drew Gainor. And indeed on the form it says yes or no.

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1 That's Claim 1.

2 Claim 2 is misappropriation of labor, skills, and

3 expenditures. In the law, that goes under the rubric of an

4 unfair competition claim.

5 In Claim 2, Broker Genius alleges unfair competition

6 against both defendants, Drew Gainor and Seat Scouts. That

7 claim is based on the theory that Drew Gainor and Seat Scouts

8 misappropriated the fruits of Broker Genius's labor, skills,

9 and expenditures.

10 To succeed on its claim of unfair competition based on

11 misappropriation of labor, skills, and expenditures, Broker

12 Genius must show by a preponderance of the evidence --

13 remember, that's the proof -- the following four elements:

14 One, that Gainor and Seat Scouts were competitors of

15 Broker Genius.

16 Two, that Broker Genius invested labor, skills, and

17 expenditures in developing its product AutoPricer Version 3.

18 Three, that Gainor and Seat Scouts for their own

19 commercial advantage misappropriated the fruits of the labor,

20 skills, and expenditures that Broker Genius invested in

21 developing AutoPricer Version 3.

22 And four, that Gainor and Seat Scouts displayed bad

23 faith in doing so.

24 Okay. The first element, were Gainor and Seat Scouts

25 competitors of Broker Genius.

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1 The party asserting a claim for misappropriation of

2 labor, skills, and expenditures must prove that the parties

3 were competitors. I instruct you that the parties in this

4 litigation agree that Gainor and Seat Scouts were competitors

5 of Broker Genius and, therefore, you do not have to consider

6 this Element 1 in your deliberations.

7 So let's go on to Element 2, investment of labor,

8 skills, and expenditures by Broker Genius.

9 The party asserting a claim for misappropriation of

10 labor, skills, and expenditures must show that it invested

11 labor, skills, and expenditures in developing property or a

12 commercial advantage. I instruct you that the parties in this

13 case agree that Broker Genius invested labor, skills, and

14 expenditures in developing AutoPricer Version 3 and you,

15 therefore, do not have to consider this element in your

16 deliberations.

17 We're going right through these elements.

18 Element No. 3, misappropriation.

19 A plaintiff asserting a claim for misappropriation of

20 labor, skills, and expenditures must show that the defendant

21 you are considering misappropriated the fruit of the

22 plaintiff's labor, skills, and expenditures. The party has

23 misappropriated labor -- I'm sorry. The party has

24 misappropriated the fruits of the labor, skills, and

25 expenditures of another when he gains access to the other's

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1 proprietary information and uses it for its own benefit or

2 commercial advantage.

3 In order to satisfy this element, Broker Genius must

4 show that the property or commercial advantage that was

5 misappropriated belonged exclusively to the plaintiff. The

6 claim of misappropriation of labor, skills, and expenditures

7 cannot be based on misappropriation of publicly available

8 information.

9 To find Gainor and Seat Scouts liable for

10 misappropriation of Broker Genius's labor, skills, and

11 expenditures, you must find that Broker Genius had a property

12 interest in the information that Gainor and Seat Scouts

13 allegedly took and used to compete unfairly against Broker

14 Genius.

15 The fourth element is bad faith.

16 If you find that Gainor or Seat Scouts misappropriated

17 Broker Genius's property or exclusive commercial advantage, you

18 must then go on to determine whether they did so in bad faith.

19 Bad faith may be established by showing a fraud, deception, or

20 an abuse of fiduciary or confidential relationship. Bad faith

21 can include signing up for a competitor's service under false

22 pretenses to gain access to information that is in the party's

23 stock and trade, and incorporating that information into a

24 competitive product, thereby free-riding on the competitor's

25 efforts.

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1 If you find that Broker Genius has proven each of the

2 elements of its misappropriation of labor, skills, and

3 expenditures by a preponderance of the evidence, then you must

4 find in favor of Broker Genius on this claim. If, on the other

5 hand, you find that Broker Genius has failed to prove any one

6 of these elements, then you must find for defendants on this

7 claim.

8 If you find that Broker Genius has proven by a

9 preponderance of the credible evidence that Gainor or Seat

10 Scouts is liable on one or both of Broker Genius's claims, then

11 you have to determine what damages, if any, you are going to

12 award to Broker Genius. Do not infer that Broker Genius is

13 entitled to recover damages simply because I am instructing you

14 on the elements of damage. You decide upon liability. I am

15 instructing you on damages only so that you will have guidance

16 if you decide that Broker Genius has proven that the defendants

17 are liable on one or both of its claims.

18 I have two cautionary instructions before I tell you

19 about the types of damages you can award if you find Broker

20 Genius has proven liability.

21 First, do not award compensatory damages more than

22 once for the same injury. For example, if Broker Genius were

23 to prevail on both claims and establish a one-dollar injury,

24 you cannot award plaintiff one dollar compensatory damages on

25 each claim. In the example I've given you, plaintiff is only

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1 entitled to be made whole again, that is, to be given the one

2 dollar. Plaintiff is not entitled to recover more than

3 plaintiff lost. Of course, if different injuries are

4 attributed to the two different claims, then you must

5 compensate the plaintiff fully for all of the plaintiff's

6 injuries, if you find any.

7 Second, you must be careful to impose any damages that

8 you may award on a claim solely on the defendant or defendants

9 you find to be liable. Although there are two defendants here,

10 it does not follow that if one is liable, the other is liable

11 as well. Each defendant is entitled to fair, separate,

12 individual consideration, without regard to your decision as to

13 the other defendant. If you find that only one defendant is

14 responsible for a particular injury, then you must impose

15 damages for that injury only on that defendant.

16 Now, remember, on Count One, it's only Drew Gainor

17 who's the defendant. On Count Two, both Seat Scouts and Drew

18 Gainor are defendants. But this is an interesting point.

19 And in the verdict sheet, in Count Two, if you do find

20 liability and you do find damages, and that's entirely up to

21 you, make sure you indicate whether you are imposing the

22 damages on Gainor or Seat Scouts or both, okay. That is not in

23 the verdict form, but you can indicate on the form. So again,

24 on Count Two, if you do find liability, that is, that one or

25 both of the defendants misappropriated the labor, skills, and

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1 expenditures of Broker Genius in bad faith, then indicate which

2 of the defendants you think should pay the damages. Or if it's

3 both, then indicate both. Okay.

4 You might find that more than one defendant is liable

5 for a particular injury, however I said that to you. If two or

6 more persons unite in an intentional act that violates someone

7 else's rights, then all of those persons are jointly liable for

8 the acts of each of them. The law does not require the injured

9 party to establish how much of the injury was done by each

10 particular defendant that you find liable.

11 Thus, if you find that the defendants who you find to

12 be liable acted jointly, then you may treat them jointly for

13 purposes of deciding damages. If you decide that both of the

14 defendants are jointly liable on a particular claim, then you

15 may simply determine the overall amount of damages for which

16 they are liable without breaking that figure down to individual

17 percentages.

18 Now, let me tell you a little more about damages.

19 First I'll talk about compensatory damages.

20 The purpose of the law of damages is to award, as far

21 as possible, just and fair compensation for the loss of any

22 which resulted from the defendants' violation of the

23 plaintiff's rights. If you find that a defendant is liable on

24 the claims, then you must award the plaintiff sufficient

25 damages to compensate plaintiff for any injury proximately

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1 cause by that defendant's conduct. These are known as

2 compensatory damages. Compensatory damages seek to make the

3 plaintiff whole, that is, to compensate Broker Genius for the

4 damage it suffered.

5 I remind you that you may award compensatory damages

6 only for injuries that the plaintiff proves were proximately

7 cause by a defendant's allegedly wrongful conduct. Damages

8 that you award, if any, must be fair and reasonable, neither

9 inadequate nor excessive. You should not award compensatory

10 damages for speculative injuries, but only for those injuries

11 that Broker Genius has actually suffered or which is reasonably

12 likely to suffer in the near future.

13 In awarding compensatory damages, if you do decide to

14 award them, then you must be guided by dispassionate common

15 sense. Computing damages may be difficult, but you must not

16 let that difficulty lead you to engage in arbitrary guesswork.

17 On the other hand, the law does not require the plaintiff to

18 prove the amount of his or her losses with mathematical

19 precision, but only with as much definiteness and accuracy as

20 the circumstances permit.

21 In all circumstances you are to use sound discretion

22 in fixing an award of damages, drawing reasonable inferences

23 where you deem appropriate from the facts and circumstances

24 that are in evidence here.

25 All right. Now, I'll tell you about damages for the

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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1 breach of contract claim. I'll tell you about that just for

2 misappropriation; labor, skills, and expenditures.

3 First, damages for breach of contract.

4 If you find that Drew Gainor breached the terms of

5 use, you must determine what amount of damages, if any, to

6 award Broker Genius. The party seeking to receive monetary

7 damages on a breach of contract claim must prove that any

8 injury it suffered was a natural and probable consequence of

9 the breach. Damages for breach of contract must be adequate to

10 compensate the aggrieved party for the breach. In other words,

11 your damages award should put Broker Genius in approximately

12 the same financial position that it would have been in had the

13 breach not occurred.

14 Such damages are meant to compensate Broker Genius for

15 the breach of contract; they are not meant to punish the party

16 or parties that breached the contract. In this case it would

17 be the party.

18 In order to compensate it for Gainor's alleged breach

19 of contract, Broker Genius seeks the profits it lost as a

20 result of Gainor's breach of contract. And in addition to the

21 lost profit, it seeks damages for claimed price erosion and

22 claimed lost of goodwill.

23 To recover lost profits, a plaintiff must demonstrate

24 three things:

25 One, that the damages were caused by the breach; two,

SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.

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CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE

I hereby certify that on August 13, 2019, I electronically filed the

foregoing Appendix for Appellants by using the appellate CM/ECF

system.

I certify that the participants in the case are registered CM/ECF users and

that service will be accomplished by the appellate CM/ECF system.

/s/ Christoph C. Heisenberg

Christoph C. Heisenberg