LAURA STASSI

I'm Laura Stassi, and this is Dating While Gray, the grown-ups guide to love, sex and
relationships. On this episode, tolerating a vicious dog, taking in an unlikely housemate
and summoning the online dating spirits. The things we do for love.

We've all done things to find love or to keep love that probably seemed totally reasonable
in the heat of the moment. And then later, maybe when we told a friend or a brother or a
sister or stopped to really think about what the heck we were doing, those decisions
seemed totally not reasonable. You want to know some of the things I did for my husband
during the two years we were separated? I edited some of his work papers. I made all the
phone calls to set up the insurance and the utilities in his new house that he bought for
himself, and when he asked me to drive him an hour north to pick up a pair of designer
chairs he'd finally won in a bidding war on eBay, I said, “sure.” It was Saturday. It was
Valentine's Day. And the chairs were right past Frederick, Maryland. A cute little day
destination. I thought maybe this chore meant something more besides, the chairs
wouldn't fit in his own car. It did not. I know. I know. Don't worry. I can laugh about it now.
And to be honest, I had ulterior motives for giving so much of myself. I was expecting to
get something in return, namely, I wanted him to want to get back together. I've learned my
lesson. If I ever decide to go out of my way, it'll be with no expectations of getting
something in return. And I have to admit, my ex has always been this way. When the
heating system started leaking in my new house, he came over to help. When I bought a
super heavy mirror and didn't know how to hang it, he showed up. He did all these things
after it was perfectly clear to both of us that we were not getting back together, nor did
either one of us want to.

I think a lot of people do this subconscious emotional bargaining about how much we're
willing to do and how far we're willing to go. Take Steven Petrow. He's an author and a
journalist. And I knew from reading his work that he’s had some serious health issues.
Steven told me that when he was diagnosed with testicular cancer in his late 20’s, he
broke up with his boyfriend. Over 30 years later, Steven says he sometimes regrets
making that decision, but he did it because he didn't want to be a burden on his new
boyfriend. I was really impressed by his selflessness and I wanted to know if he regrets
any other decisions he's made when it comes to love. Here's our conversation.

STEVEN PETROW
I had been trying Match.com back, back in the day. So here we're in sort of early 2000’s.
And that wasn't yielding what I would call proper boyfriend candidates.

LAURA STASSI
What were they yielding? How would you describe a proper boyfriend candidate?

STEVEN PETROW
Somebody who might actually want to have a relationship and do something outside of the
bedroom. So I have these two very good friends and they had met through this
matchmaker. And so when I started talking to this matchmaker, he explained to me some
of his theories, which, which, if I remember correctly, were we don't always know what
we're seeking.

LAURA STASSI
Do you remember what your parameters were that you thought you wanted?

STEVEN PETROW
My previous primary relationship had been with a writer, and all of my other boyfriends had
been writers and
LAURA STASSI
Those creative types.

STEVEN PETROW
Creative types, uses a pen, so on and so forth. And I did not wind up with that through,
through Dale, who was the matchmaker. He was he was actually a real estate agent who
had retired, was definitely not a creative type, not what I would have set out after. And so
that sort of counter-intuitive intelligence of matchmaker, really, yeah, brought us together
and brought us together for, for 14 years overall. And.

LAURA STASSI
You know, without getting into too many details of why your marriage ended, which unless
you would like to get into details of why your marriage ended.

STEVEN PETROW
You know, I'll just I'll just say this. We had pretty much come to the end of, end of our
marriage. We had we had done a lot of work. We had done couples therapy. We also went
to a canine psychologist because we had each brought two dogs into our relationship and
they had some issues which were really our largest issues sort of like.

LAURA STASSI
Seriously?

STEVEN PETROW
Reassigning children into into a marriage. So I had a cocker spaniel named Max who, who
was a rescue. Goofy, sweet. Not a genius.

LAURA STASSI
I have a son named Max. He's goofy and sweet, but he is a genius.

STEVEN PETROW
Of course he’s a genius Laura. And Jim had a Jack Russell. Brilliant, crazy and in love with
her owner and very protective. There were a number of incidents, unfortunately, where
Zoe attacked Max and,

LAURA STASSI
Oh.

STEVEN PETROW
You know, resulting in stitches and blood and significant vet bills. They were on Paxil, anti-
depressants and I was on Lexapro. Jim wasn't on anything too bad for him. Max. Max
died, but Max was not murdered by Zoe. I have to just say that. Zoe had also bitten me.
And in the divorce, because Zoe had been Jim’s dog to start off with. The law treated her
like personal property. And so I asked for joint custody because by that point I had warmed
up to her and, and frankly, I hope that the sharing of of Zoe would allow us to bridge what
was gonna be a very difficult time and perhaps come out friends on the other side. But she
wound up in the settlement agreement between, I think, a Cuisinart and a piece of pottery
on his side. And then I would say maybe three or four weeks later, he wrote me an email
and said, would you be interested in having her full time?

LAURA STASSI
What?

STEVEN PETROW
I know what? Because the new house he bought, a townhouse, was not accepting of dogs.
In the end, I wound up with Zoe full time. And he said to me, “you know, what this means
is I'm never gonna see her again and I'm never gonna see you again.” And so we have not
seen each other since, you know, since we actually left, left the house that we were living
in. And.

LAURA STASSI
Divorce is rough, man. It's just. At the end, it just kind of gets. Gross.

STEVEN PETROW
Yeah, it is. It's horrible. And I think, you know, I think that for many gay people, you know,
we're sort of in this first wave of, of getting married and then getting divorced and did not
give a lot of thought to, you know, the divorce part. And even though I write about, I've
written a lot about LGBTQ issues and the importance of prenups, I actually now know the
importance of what's called a pet-nup.

LAURA STASSI
What do you think is the backstory to him giving up the dog and then not ever being able
to see either one of you again?

STEVEN PETROW
Well, I'll just I'll just put on my reporters hat here. So I know he did meet someone else
very soon after cause he announced it on Facebook.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, lovely.

STEVEN PETROW
And he did get another, another puppy very soon after. So that's, that's what I know to be
true, as Oprah would say. And and, you know, and more than that, I can only speculate.
And really, why bother at this point?

LAURA STASSI
Yeah.

STEVEN PETROW
You know, I'm very happy with her. She's almost 17. She's in fantastic health. She. She's a
lovely dog now with other people. She doesn't. She doesn't bite. I haven't been bitten. I
haven't been bitten since the divorce. I haven't been to the E.R. So. So there you have it.

LAURA STASSI
How old are you?

STEVEN PETROW
How old am I in real life or how old am I online?

LAURA STASSI
Oh, OK.

STEVEN PETROW
I have two different ages. I'm 62 as I sit here and speak to you. But on Tinder, I'm 58.

LAURA STASSI
OK. That's interesting. Tinder.
STEVEN PETROW
Tinder.

LAURA STASSI
Tell me, why? OK. My first question, why are you younger on Tinder than you are in real
life? And I'm asking this as someone who I have never understood why people aren't.
Upfront about their age to me. If you're not getting older, that means you've died. So
what's there not to embrace about the beautiful 60’s for you?

STEVEN PETROW
It's taken me a little while to embrace the beauty of my 60’s. On Tinder and some of the
other apps, when I'm looking and setting parameters, age parameters, I tend to use like
round numbers, you know, and, you know, like 40 to 70. So my thinking was if I come in a
hair under 60, I will not be excluded from those who are looking for roughly that age and
um. And so, so on first dates, I was always very upfront about saying, “I'm not you know,
I'm not 58. I'm 60 or 61.” But I will say, Laura, I was chatting with a guy on Tinder and he
wrote, and we had exchanged last names. So he had he Googled me and he knew some
of what I had written and he knew my real age. And he said I was being dishonest and that
was a reflection of my values and that he didn't you know, he didn't want to, you know,
pursue this any further. And.

LAURA STASSI
Even though he asked and you answered?

STEVEN PETROW
Ehhh, you know. And so I said to him, “well, you're very binary. And I think you're not, I
think you're not the person for me.”

LAURA STASSI
I also have to be devil's advocate, I guess. 40? I mean, that seems awfully young. So I
was told that you should go ten years either way. But now that I'm almost 59. 49 even
sounds young to me. So to go to anything younger than 49. OK. You tell me. Uhh, can you
see yourself?

STEVEN PETROW
I'm going to I'm going to let you stew on that.

LAURA STASSI
Can you see yourself.

STEVEN PETROW
Laura, it’s, they're only numbers. They're only numbers. You know, I have been meeting
and dating all sorts of people, all sorts of careers, lifestyles.

LAURA STASSI
And what are you looking for? Are you looking for, Just to go out? Or are you looking for
another committed relationship?

STEVEN PETROW
Overall, I'm looking for another committed relationship. But as a friend of mine says, not
every date needs to go on that same road. And so. So some might not be a committed
relationship material, but they might be really nice or fun people. I'm an optimist. I'm on
four dating sites.
LAURA STASSI
Wow.

STEVEN PETROW
I take introductions from friends and have met nice people that way. And recently, I've
been working with a new matchmaker. So, you know, I'm trying to use the tools that are
available to me, although I do want to say I feel. I feel happy in the life that I have now. I
remember a younger, a younger Steven who didn't feel complete without a partner. I feel
like a complete person. And I think I've come to also learn at this point you really can't be
with someone in a in a healthy relationship if you're not complete yourself.

LAURA STASSI
Shaving a few years off my age is not something I would do, but that's something Steven's
doing to find love. To each their own. Speaking of age, I'll tell you that since Steven and I
talk, I've had a birthday. I'm 59 now. Also, sadly, Steven's dog died. Poor Zoe getting
rejected by Steven's ex. Props to Steven for taking in the dog. Even if he originally saw
Zoe as a way to remain connected to his ex. Just another thing Steven did from a place of
love.

PONCIE RUTSCH
Hey, it's Poncie. And I'm one of the producers on Dating While Gray. This podcast has
been a real education for me. I remember reading Laura's pitch for Dating While Gray and
realizing that people in their 50’s are just as bad at dating as my friends were in their 20’s.
But the biggest thing I've learned is how much this show resonates with all of you. I'm so
excited that you enjoy Dating While Gray. New projects like this one rely on listener
support. So I'm encouraging you to show your love for Laura and for Dating While Gray by
clicking the link in the show notes or making a gift at WAMU.org. Thanks.

LAURA STASSI
Maybe it's not that some of us are more willing to do things for love. Maybe it's that each of
us has a different threshold for what we're willing to do and when. Which brings me to the
next story. It involves a woman I'm calling Jamie. When Jamie got divorced after a long
marriage to her college sweetheart, she says she kind of went a little nuts. She'd meet
someone, instantly fall in love and plan a future around that person. And then she'd go out
of her way to make the relationship work because she was already so invested. Jamie had
a series of really bad relationships. One time she even moved to a different state and
bought a house to live in with a brand new boyfriend and his 13-year-old son. That didn't
last long. Jamie left town and moved back to where she used to live when she was
married. Her ex was moving across the country and she bought his townhouse from him.
But that's not all. Jamie vowed to take things really slow the next time she met someone
she was attracted to, but she knew she couldn't do it alone. So she decided to get a
housemate, someone who would not only keep her company, but who Jamie would feel
accountable to. Guess who Jamie asked to be her housemate. You'll never guess. Her ex-
mother-in-law. Let's call her the outlaw. Ask Jamie the question you're probably wondering
yourself.

Jamie, why your outlaw?

JAMIE
I've always had a good relationship with her. I've known her for 30 years and I was living
by myself and I knew that she was struggling financially. So I just thought that if I and I
knew that there were other things that I thought she would be better off living closer to a
city where she can go to a good doctor's offices and. And so I offered that she can move in
with me. And I would help her get back on her feet.
LAURA STASSI
It was not like it was like a fresh divorce where she was a fresh presence in your life.

JAMIE
No, but she never. Like I, we were never cut off when we got divorced. I didn't lose
connection with my in-laws. I, you know, was still invited to like when his grandmother
passed away. I was still invited to her funeral. And, you know, I know some people just cut
off entirely.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

JAMIE
But I still had relationships with them from, for some perspective. It got a little complicated
when he remarried. So I wasn't invited to like some of the things like the wedding. But
having somebody in the home, she'll have a community. And then at the same time, it. It
helped me, too, because A, it helped me financially, which it wasn't a lot of money. But,
you know, any little bit helps. But really, it was also having my own companion cause I had
just gotten out of a relationship and that had ended, you know, abruptly. And I was lonely.

LAURA STASSI
So does she have her own little apartment or she's got her own floor?

JAMIE
In my basement, like the kind of basement which backs out. There's a sliding glass door
out to the patio. She has her own space down there. The problem is, it doesn't have a door
on it. So she doesn't have as much privacy as she probably. But she does have her own
bathroom room.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

JAMIE
But she has to share a kitchen. And so my thing is just the shared space should be kept
clean.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

JAMIE
And then.

LAURA STASSI
Right.

JAMIE
You know, we kind of work around each other's schedules. We do eat like sometimes I'll
ask her if she'll pick something up cause she's not working during the day. And so she'll do
an errand for me once in a while.

LAURA STASSI
And she drives.

JAMIE
Yes, she does drive.
LAURA STASSI
Has it met your expectations? Or, first of all, were your expectations low or high?

JAMIE
Well, I think I think we both had different expectations, which we had to kind of come to
terms with as well, because she thought she was moving in to help me and I thought she
was moving in so that I could help her. And then. So we've had our ups and downs.

LAURA STASSI
What is it like dating with her in the house?

JAMIE
So she moved in on Sunday and I met my boyfriend on Saturday that following Saturday.

LAURA STASSI
OK. Let me explain this, because it may be a little confusing. Six months before her outlaw
moved in, Jamie met someone at a meetup group. She was interested, but nothing came
of it. Less than a week after her outlaw moved in, Jamie ran into the same man at another
meetup. And this time the sparks really fly and she decides pretty quickly that he's the one.
Jamie never even had a chance for her accountability plan to kick in. But this new man has
his own complications. Let's go from the moment where they meet for the second time.

JAMIE
I went over and I introduced myself and he said, “yeah, I know we've met before.” And I
was like telling him things. He goes, “yeah, I know you told me.” Laura, he remembered
everything that I had told him

LAURA STASSI
That as alone is so appealing.

JAMIE
I know.

LAURA STASSI
Somebody listens and they remembered six months later?

JAMIE
I couldn't believe it. That was a Saturday night. And on Monday I realized he had
messaged me on the meetup app and he had actually sent me a message like not just a,
hey, it's nice to meet you. He had sent me a, like an email message saying it was really
nice to meet you. I would love to get together with you sometime. Here's my number.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, how exciting.

JAMIE
So, yeah. It was really so. So then I did. I called him. We ended up meeting at another
meetup that Monday where I dragged my mother-in-law to the meetup.

LAURA STASSI
Oh, good for you!

JAMIE
Cause I was hoping he was there. So she met him and she liked him, too. And after we
left, she's like, “well, if you don't jump I will.”
LAURA STASSI
Ewwww.

JAMIE
And I’m like OK no. But, and then he asked me out. So the next day we had our first date.
But I think, you know, we were dating a while and I don't know how long we were dating
before I realized that although he was separated, he was still living in the house with his
wife because their children were still home.

LAURA STASSI
And in Virginia, you're allowed to do that, separated by living under the same roof.

JAMIE
The kids are now all off at college and stuff. But there's still some complications because if
you leave your house without a signed agreement, you can, you know, abandonment
issues. And.

LAURA STASSI
So there's no signed property settlement agreement?

JAMIE
No. So we're working on that. We're not. He is. But, but you know what? This has been
this has been a test of patience with me. And it's been really hard. Some days are harder,
like the holidays are really hard. But I keep on reminding myself that I'm in this for the long
haul, that this isn't something that I just want temporary, that I want it permanently. And so
it makes it a little easier to be patient. And, you know, cause I, he’s definitely a good guy.

LAURA STASSI
And I think just. Okay, people listening to this. Their first reaction might be, “sucker!”

JAMIE
Well, I had a lot of friends who were really uncomfortable with it and family.

LAURA STASSI
And didn’t you check, her Facebook status is separated or something?

JAMIE
Yeah, she’s separated.

LAURA STASSI
So she's yeah, she's on board with this.

JAMIE
And she tells people she's divorced. I thought he was telling me the truth from the get go.
Like he doesn't seem like the type that would lie. But Laura, there are people who would,
like there are people and I and you hear it all the time about people who you think that
they're single. I have a friend who it happened to recently.

LAURA STASSI
I really strive available.

JAMIE
It's so hard, though.

LAURA STASSI
Oh yes.

JAMIE
So like, how do you I don't know if somebody is available right? now?

LAURA STASSI
And that's the thing.

JAMIE
So it's like what is the definition of available? So it's like to say to somebody, “oh, wait,
before we start dating. I want to see your divorce papers.” Right after things start getting,
dragging out. I said to him, “you know, I really wish you had waited because you really
weren't available.”

LAURA STASSI
Have you thought in your head, okay. This is when I'm going to say enough is enough?

JAMIE
Well, you know, it's funny because I've had a lot of conversations with him about are you
sure you don't want to get back with your wife? Because I'm a believer in marriage. And
I'm a believer in long term relationships. And I know that they take a lot of work. And I think
that it's worth the work if both parties are willing to do it. But I just have to trust.

LAURA STASSI
You posted on social media that you were looking for a space.

JAMIE
Yes.

LAURA STASSI
Can we not talk?

JAMIE
No, no, no, no. That's fine. I have my own depression issues. And so having someone in
the house who is going through depression is really difficult on me.

LAURA STASSI
Yes.

JAMIE
And and I've told her, I said, “this is it's my issue. It's not yours. However, if I didn't care
about you, maybe it wouldn't make the difference. But seeing, you know, when you're
down, it’s really hard on me.” And so we're actually looking at alternatives for her for living,
but I have you know, we've, I've asked her to make a list of what she's looking for in a
place and then we've been looking around. You know, I'm in communication with her kids
as well about it. And then.

LAURA STASSI
Your ex-husband?

JAMIE
Mhmm, and his brothers.

LAURA STASSI
Does it kind of bother you that you seem to be the one, you know, just trying to figure out
the future of this woman who has three?
JAMIE
Well, you know, I think if she had daughters, it would be different.

LAURA STASSI
Does she have daughters in law?

JAMIE
She does.

LAURA STASSI
OK then! Thank you for talking with me.

You know, a lot of us have lost older family members, mothers and fathers, in-laws and
outlaws. I think it's kind of a beautiful thing a little out there, but beautiful that Jamie shared
her home and her life this way for two years. Jamie’s outlaw has her own place now. Then
Jamie’s grown son bounced back home. So now Jamie has another housemate who's
helping her with romantic accountability. That's probably a good thing, because two and a
half years after Jamie started dating her boyfriend, he's still living with his estranged wife.
He still isn't any closer to a divorce. But Jamie is still waiting, more or less patiently, cause
that's what Jamie does for love.

OK. Dating While Gray listeners. I need your help. We've got an episode coming up about
money and I want to hear from you. How soon is too soon to talk about money? How do
you even start that conversation? And of course, who pays for the first date?

UNIDENTIFIED TALKER
If they're trying to find their partner, they're paying a long the way for every woman they
meet. They will go broke. So the expectation that they will pay every time for every person,
they meet is just unrealistic.

UNIDENTIFIED TALKER
So we went to a movie. It was my, my insistence that we go Dutch. And she got a little
irritated because I got the senior discount and she didn't.

MARGE
Yeah. I rented it from him. You know, legally and paid the rent.

BOB
The only thing that I expect is if you're living there under that terms, you're gonna pay the
rent. Doesn't work out. It doesn't work out.

COLLETTE
There's got to be this give and take of this is what I can afford. This is what I want to do.
And then you can start talking about your other priorities.

LAURA STASSI
Call me at 202-8-9-5-Gray. That's 4729. And tell me your story about money. I can't wait to
hear from you. 202-895-G R A Y.

It's a Sunday morning, and I'm at the home of Genevieve, a woman I know from my
running group. Genevieve is in her early 50’s and she's recently single again. She's invited
me and several other women over to her new home for brunch. And to help her write an
online dating profile. Yes. Genevieve is ready to take the plunge and do what it takes to
find love online. But before this group of very practical women with very practical careers
gets down to the practical business of crafting the profile, we're going to do something a
little woo-woo.

OK. We're participating in a ceremony now where Genevieve is handing out pieces of
paper and we're supposed to on this piece of paper. Thank you. I'm going to definitely do
it. We're going to write down qualities in our life that are holding us back or?

GENEVIEVE
This is what we're releasing,

LAURA STASSI
What we're releasing that is holding us back?

GENEVIEVE
Right. That might be occupying space and preventing us from finding our beloved. My
name is Genevieve and I'm 52. So we're going to be using, burning some white sage. So
once we've released the negative emotions and the things that we feel like have been
preventing us from having that space to generate and to attract the things we want in our
lives, we're going to use, just burn the white sage. And that attracts a more cleansing
positive energy.

LAURA STASSI
I would like to do that because I recently have something I've decided I need to let go of.

GENEVIEVE
Katherine, are you releasing?

LAURA STASSI
We're walking through the whole house with the sage and I'm gonna go. She said it's also
a good opportunity to see her house. Sort of smells like we're at a concert.

GENEVIEVE
It was my nutritionist who told me about when my guests just kind of reinforced that this is
something she's done before, where it's a ritual that different cultures go through to sort of
release various emotions. So it could be grief or it could be, you know, you're still holding
onto something because you had a relationship and you still have something there that
you're holding on to.

LAURA STASSI
Anger.

GENEVIEVE
Or something. But exactly before the relationship, like, you know, some childhood thing,
whatever. So it's sometimes it's gonna be hard for you to know exactly what to release.
But I think I've given it some thought in terms of my beloved and what I want that to be and
what I'm holding on and what I need to let go off in order to make way for that.

LAURA STASSI
You said you wanted people to help you write an online dating profile. What made you
think of this to do that?

GENEVIEVE
So this is actually the second time I've done this. When I was younger and I guess maybe,
wow maybe 2000 when online dating, it wasn't even online dating. It was you could put an
ad in the paper I think before online dating. And I had some girlfriends over, I don't think
any of these women were there, but some girlfriends over to help me. I had actually put
the ad in, so I had them come to vet the candidates. OK, a little bit about me. What should
I put here?

SAGE BURNER 1
Now, you just need to put a paragraph about what you seek, who you are. This is just, you
know, to share common interests or whatnot.

SAGE BURNER 2
How would I describe Genevieve? Gorgeous, dresses beautifully, cultured, runs, runs
beautifully and fast.

SAGE BURNER 3
And stylishly. The rest of us are, you know, sweating and dripping and panting. And and
she will run in the perfectly coordinated outfit and run faster and harder and well.

SAGE BURNER 4
And her hair looks beautiful.

SAGE BURNER 3
And her hair looks great.

GENEVIEVE
You know, I think I want to have a partner, you know, somebody that you can really just
you know, this person has your back and you have their back and you trust them
completely. And, you know, if you were to get sick, you don't have to worry about, you
know, whether or not you have the same values. And he's gonna take care of your money
or, you know, just somebody who you can really trust.

LAURA STASSI
And you're in this beautiful townhouse and your parents are living with you. Do you think
that's, would you envision somebody coming right on in with the three of you?

GENEVIEVE
Probably not. So I haven't really thought ahead to that yet, cause the parents living with
me is a new thing. And I don't know, like I couldn't tell you what this person looks like. I've
dated all kinds of men, so I would not be able to articulate what he looks like necessarily.
But I could probably tell you I'd want him to, you know, be very gentle in the way that he
touches me. And I know for sure I'd want him to smell good. So I'm defining those
parameters.

LAURA STASSI
I could get on board with that.

That brunch was about a year ago. Genevieve reports that since then, her enthusiasm and
motivation have faded. She says she's lost her focus and hasn't devoted the time or the
energy she knows it takes to do online dating right. Genevieve says her desire to date and
to be more active exploring options online will come when the time is right. Amen,
Genevieve, I can relate. When I started working on this episode, I thought it would be
about how Steven and Jamie and even Genevieve are doing so much more for love than I
am. But the more I've thought about it, I've realized it's not how much you're doing for
someone else. It's about figuring out what you're willing to do. And at Genevieve’s party, I
did write down a few things that I felt were occupying some emotional space and which
might be holding me back from finding my beloved. My beloved. Doesn't that sound so
sweet? And after Genevieve’s party, guess what? I bought some sage. Seriously, I haven't
burned it yet to attract more positive energy. But I will one day. Baby steps, people. Baby
steps.

Dating While Gray is produced by Poncie Rutsch, Patrick Fort, Ruth Tam, Julia Karron and
me, Laura Stassi. Our theme music is by Daniel Peterschmidt and Mike Kidd mixes the
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