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Hydroxy Gas Generator


by petercd on July 29, 2008

Table of Contents

Hydroxy Gas Generator . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1

Intro: Hydroxy Gas Generator . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2

Step 1: Safety First and Procedures . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2

Step 2: Design Stage . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

File Downloads . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Step 3: Series Cells . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Step 4: Parallel Cells . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4

Step 5: Electrode Materials . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5

Step 6: Electrode Preparation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

File Downloads . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

Step 7: Internal Parts . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6

Step 8: Internal spacer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7

Step 9: Overview . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8

Step 10: Perspex Caps . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9

Step 11: Power connections . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10

Step 12: The Bubbler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10

Step 13: Show and Tell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14

File Downloads . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15

Related Instructables . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15

Comments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15

IT DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING SPECIAL. HHO, BROWN'S GAS, HYDROXY and KLEIN'S GAS ARE ALL SCAMS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Author:petercd
general bloke type of tinkering

Intro: Hydroxy Gas Generator


YES, you can melt rock, fuse glass and even boost an I.C.E. ... no Cyril not the ice in a fridge, an I nternal C ombustion E ngine.

But first you'll have to toss out the schoolboy experiments with carbon rods and paper clips dipped in saline or baking soda solutions.
That was fine to demonstrate a concept with lighting the soapy bubbles, but thats pretty much all you're going to do.
If you want to move into the future, then....

Its time to build a better electrolyser.

Better than what you ask?.... well better than all the glass pickle jar and tupperware container contraptions out there.

Step 1: Safety First and Procedures


Firstly, whether you call it HHO, Electrolytic Gas, Browns Gas or my personal choice Hydroxy * is irrelevant, the bottom line is that its very flammable and therefore
suitable precautions must be taken.

I cant stress strongly enough that pickle jars or glass jars of any type are not suitable containers to generate hydroxy gas. The slightest accident is going to turn that
glass jar into a glass grenade with the unpleasant side effects that usually accompany such events.

To prevent flashbacks you will need a water trap otherwise known as a bubbler, which also has the added benefit of scrubbing the gas clean of caustic vapours. Dont
rely on existing arrestors as used on oxy/acet gas welders, the flame front speed of hydroxy is way too fast for them to contain the flame.

The electrolyte I will be using is NaOh a.k.a. Caustic Soda a.k.a. Sodium Hydroxide. Not baking soda, it creates carbon monoxide and erodes the stainless steel
electrodes.

I get mine as caustic soda flake from the hardware store, but it is also possible to get decent quality from other places in drain cleaner form. Make sure if going the drain
cleaner route that it doesnt have additives or aluminium shavings added.

Caustic soda is as its name implies very caustic , and rubber gloves will be the order of the day if you dont want to see your skin start peeling away. Its probably also
wise to add eye protection too.
Initially I start a cleansing cycle with very dilute 5% caustic soda in distilled water , and then the conditioning phase with full strength 23% NaOh in distilled water which
is then the time to keep your wits about you.

Note, I dont use river water or tap water or melted Italian snow water or something sucked out of a rock layer far below the surface. I dont want spiders, bugs and
chemicals in my 'lyzer, so its less hassle if I start with the good and clean and fresh stuff...trraaalala.

Dont use baking soda , it creates carbon monoxide and erodes the stainless steel electrodes.
Dont use salt , it gives off chlorine gas, very nasty stuff.

I use the term Hydroxy in the loosest sense in that I infer it to mean a stoichiometric (2:1) mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen in a common duct electrolyzer, and not a

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
gas consisting of mono-atomic Hydrogen.

Step 2: Design Stage


Electrolytic gas generators have been around since 1916 (US Pat. 1219966) as a quick search on google revealed, possibly even earlier.

That said the 2 main types are the parallel and series versions. Of the 2 the series version is the more efficient type while the parallel versions are usually easier to
construct and maintain.

In the parallel type cells you can have parallel connected electrode plates or series connected plates.

More on the different types later.

My preferred choice of gas 'lyzer remains the series type cell because of efficiency .
However the construction is usually more tricky with the series flat plate versions and so I
decide to "roll my own" easier version.

This design was seeded by Nick Stone's "Newb Tube" on the Aquauto.com site. I decided to build my own Newb Tube instead of pointing out all the mods and tricks he
should try....thanks Nick :)

My criteria were,
1.cheap S.S. electrodes (tubes),
2.easy maintenance,
3.series connection
4.13.8V working.
This meant I needed 7 cells because rule of thumb says 2V drop across each cell, any more is wasted as heat buildup. However it would'nt be practical to have 8 tubes
as it would start taking up space and be awkward to handle/install. A set of 8 nested tubes would also be prohibitively expensive.
Eventually after mulling it over I settled on 3 X 3 nested tube setups, series connected to give me the 2V voltage drop across each cell.

However, due to differing square area's of the different size tubes, it actually had a 1V drop across the Neg outer and the neutral inner with 3V across the pos washer
stack and neutral tube. This was with 12V across the whole cell and 4V across each tube set.

Guess a Triple Newb Tube is a good a name as any.

I've also added two different CAD formats(DXF and DWG) of the design, all measurements are in cm.

Image Notes
1. All dimensions in centimeters

Image Notes
1. thought this looked better than having a blank page on top :)

File Downloads

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
hydroxy gas gen.dwg (33 KB)
[NOTE: When saving, if you see .tmp as the file ext, rename it to 'hydroxy gas gen.dwg']

hydroxy gas gen.dxf (102 KB)


[NOTE: When saving, if you see .tmp as the file ext, rename it to 'hydroxy gas gen.dxf']
Step 3: Series Cells
In the series type you have isolated cell electrolytes, with the electrolyte of each cell isolated from the next one, ie no water level equalisation holes drilled in the plates.
You can also have a series connected, common electrolyte (open bath) cell which isnt as efficient as the true series cell, being a lot closer to the parallel cells in operation
efficiencies.

Examples below, the cell on its end is my big daddy 120 plate series job(119 cells) for running directly off rectified domestic 240 V AC. The negative connection is at the
bottom already in the case with the pos awaiting its turn on the left. There are no equalisation holes drilled in the plates, so its a true series cell as long as the electrolyte
level stays below the plate tops.

Image Notes
1. the neg connection
2. most of the 120 neutral unconnected plates
3. the remaining plates
4. the other power connection and a few more plates

Step 4: Parallel Cells


This is a parallel connected open bath design by Shigeta Hasebe us pat 4747925.
Ignoring the magnet you will see that every alternate plate is either connected to a pos or the neg power bar. The plates are usually fully submerged in a parallel design.

A good example of 2 parallel groups of series connected plates in an open bath type cell is the Smacks Booster. Smacks home page

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. power connection, either + or -
2. the other power connection
3. insulating material like perspex for the power bars

Step 5: Electrode Materials


The material of choice is Stainless steel 316L, failing that you could use 304L or even plain old 304 SS.
The plain 304 is cheaper, but will take longer with the conditioning phase due to the higher carbon content, more about conditioning later.
Seeing as Im using M6 threaded rod and M6 nuts and washers which are only available in 304 grade, I went with 304 tubing too.

The inner tubes are 125mm long, the threaded rod is 180mm long and the outer tubes are 200mm long giving me a 60mm working space for foam, sloshing and whatnot.

Image Notes
1. center anode 180mm long, also hit it with a 80grit garnet blast
2. plain old 240 grit from the manufacturer 200mm long
3. brake master cylinder hone which is needed to do the inside of the tubes
4. the garnet 80 grit blasted neutral tubes 125mm long

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Step 6: Electrode Preparation
The steel will need to be prepped before decent efficiencies and gas rates are obtainable.

Typically the plates are cross hatch sanded, front and back of the entire plate.

It will be obvious to those skilled in the art that to cross hatch the outside of tubes could be tricky, as well as sandblasting the inside of the tubes. Therefore I blasted the
outside and attacked the insides with the brake cylinder hone.

Then the plates are washed clean. The plates should NOT be touched with grubby paws after washing due to fingerprint oils contaminating the plates and reducing
bubble formation in that area.

Once the grubby paws are covered in rubber gloves, then assemble and begin the cleansing stage ( 3 days - a week).
Then the conditioning stage also about 3 days to a week. In between the electrolyte will sludge and have to be flushed and replaced with some good and clean and fresh
stuff ......

For the very last word and finer details on plate prep, the excellent article by Bob Boyce who is legendary in Hydroxy circles is attached.

Image Notes
1. 1st direction for sanding
2. 2nd direction for sanding
3. cross hatched area must cover entire plate

File Downloads

Cell Plate Preparation and Condition.rtf (4 KB)


[NOTE: When saving, if you see .tmp as the file ext, rename it to 'Cell Plate Preparation and Condition.rtf']
Step 7: Internal Parts
The Anode, (positive electrode) comprises a stack of SS washers and nuts. Next is the "neutral" electrically unconnected inner tube which is fastened down to the base
with the inner spacer.

Last pic is a shot down the tubes to see how it fits together.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. center pos electrode, garnet grit blasted washers and nuts
2. nitrile washers will go here on either side of the bottom plate to stop leaks.

Image Notes
1. inner spacer with lock nuts
2. more garnet blasted inner tubes
3. teflon plumbers tape with nitrile washers on both sides of the bottom plate to
seal the cell
4. holes drilled for threaded rod
5. nitrile o-rings

Image Notes
1. lock nuts
2. insides honed in the wetted area only

Step 8: Internal spacer


Because this is my own design, the internal spacer needed to be custom built too.
Alas I dont have a lathe or plastic injection equipment, so I had to do it the hard way with a modified tank cutter.

1. cut out the disk from a square to match the inner diameter of the outer tube very closely.
this is to prevent the center anode (washer/nut stack) and the inner tube from moving around and shorting out and also to maintain a uniform distance between tubes and
washers.

2. cut the inner gas holes, I used a 3mm bit but larger can also work.

3. cut the slots for the outer tube gas holes, I used a rotary file 6mm dia.

You can then assemble the spacers onto the anode stack which tightens down the stack onto the base plate.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. cutting the round spacer out of square perspex

Image Notes
1. modified drill bit stock to cut 2mm grooves for tube seats

Image Notes
1. this one was cut with the edge of a file :(
2. finally I found my rotary file drill bit :)
3. cutting the outer tube gas slots
4. this firt slot was made with tenon saw cuts :(
Image Notes
1. drilling the gas holes for the internal tube
2. the groove for the inner tube seat

Step 9: Overview
A sort of cut-away to illustrate how it all fits together.

The whole shebang is held together with 8 SS threaded rods.

Dont forget to clamp every hydroxy hose, helps prevent leaks.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. 8 threaded rods holding it all together, 4 front and 4 back
2. water fill port
3. gas outlet to bubbler
4. hoseclamps on everything hose related to prevent leaks
5. 10mm irrigation fittings

Image Notes
1. outer negative tube
2. inner neutral tube
3. center pos electrode
4. 10mm irrigation fittings
5. no o-rings installed yet
6. teflon tape

Step 10: Perspex Caps


Here we do the perspex top and bottom caps. I went with perspex (Plexiglas®) because it can handle decent temps and resists NaOh.

These are 15mm thick pieces with 2 seat grooves "tank cut" on the bottom plate and 1 seat cut for the outer tube on the top plate.

Nitrile rubber O-rings, also known as Buna-N are then placed into the seats and the tubes then seat against the o-ring sealing the gap as well as insulating the perspex
from direct heat.
The nitrile has good resistance to acids and bases. It also offers excellent resistance to petroleum-based oils and fuels, water and alcohols. The temp range is -55ºC to
120ºC.

The front perspex piece has been flame-polished with my favourite gas, hydroxy, the rear one which is the bottom cap has been left alone for comparision.

The top cap in the foreground still needs to have a water fill port drilled inside each tube seat, the threaded hole is a standard ¼in BSP compressor fitting.

The bottom cap has been drilled and tapped for stainless steel M6 threaded rod.

Don't forget to use teflon plumbers tape on all threaded connections, it helps greatly with leak prevention.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. Illustrating the difference between flame polished and plain

Image Notes
1. bottom plate with 2 tube seat grooves

Step 11: Power connections


Lugs were used to make power connections to the 'lyzer, and also 3 stainless steel hose clamps to make a connection to the outer tubes, I dont have a MIG welder and I
also didnt want to heat the heck out of the tubes.

I used M6 type power connections seeing as I shouldnt be exceeding the design current of approx 8.5Amps.

Rule of thumb says not to exceed 0.5 amps per in², or face electrode erosion at an accelerated rate. That would equate to 0.0775A per cm², so taking the smallest tube
area, the inside of the inner tube which is 111.57cm² X 0.0775A= 8.646A max.
I have seen figures of 0.1A / cm² for 304SS and 0.15A / cm² for 316SS on youtube, but felt more comfortable with figures from long-time experienced experimenters with
this technology.

Image Notes
1. pos connection
2. pos connection
3. pos to power source
4. neg connection
5. neg
6. neg to power source Image Notes
1. S.S. hoseclamp drilled and tapped for a M6 S.S. machine screw

Step 12: The Bubbler


The bubbler can be made in any number of ways, for large gas flow rates I use an old water filter housing that I've modified.
The nylon sight tube is a necessary feature and I made mine in the top cap to indicate the highest water level. Safety dictates that the smaller the volume above the
water, the smaller the explosion when you get a flashback.

This device has taken care of a few flashbacks without any problems

Other embodiments of bubblers include but are not limited to 20mm clear vinyl tube as in the pic below, and also Sch 40 PVC pipe with end caps can do serviceable duty
as a bubbler.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. more irrigation fittings
2. irrigation end cap for the bubble producing parts

Image Notes
1. gas in
2. gas out
3. fittings related to its previous life as a water filter housing
4. hydraulic fittings, called a bulkhead and brass elbow
5. nylon tube
6. this serves as a bubbler water level check

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. the bubble producing parts

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. 10mm to 20mm reducer, irrigation stores
2. aquarium airstone
3. another 10-20mm reducer serves as the outlet.

Step 13: Show and Tell


Strange that this technology has been around since the 1800's and yet its not common knowledge with the general public.

Anyway heres a pic and the video of a hydroxy flame burning underwater.
The water has to be heated somewhat as cold water merely extinguishes the flame. Pictures of melted glass panes and glazed pebbles probably wont be that interesting,
its one of those have to be there things :)

I've also included an excel spreadsheet to calculate millilitres per minute per watt which is a nice way of comparing different cells outputs.
Flat plate series cells are mostly 7MMW and up, I've never built a parallel cell so I cant say too much about them.

Some facts from me:

This tube version is 5.75MMW at the moment with probably another week of conditioning left, I expect it to easily get to 6.5MMW.
Flow rate is 600ml per minute which I expect to double seeing as it has double the square area of my flat plate series 7 cell which puts out 600ml at full chat.
Temp after 4hrs is 66ºC on the outer tube and 73ºC inside electrolyte.

Lastly a mod which appeared to drop the power requirements by ± 1A , is to apply shrink wrap to the inner spacer locknuts.
It appears that the open nuts contribute to current leakage which means additional unwanted heat
Pic attached for clarity.

Image Notes
1. shrink wrap, top was squeezed shut (crimped) with pliers
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Image Notes
1. scratches on the outside of cup
2. silvery trails are bubbles rising to surface
3. bubbles trails as they scoot off to the edge

File Downloads

MMW_calc.xls (14 KB)


[NOTE: When saving, if you see .tmp as the file ext, rename it to 'MMW_calc.xls']

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Comments
50 comments Add Comment view all 148 comments

Kiteman says: Jul 31, 2008. 2:42 PM REPLY


This is a nice Instructable, except for one small point...

IT DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING SPECIAL. HHO, BROWN'S GAS, HYDROXY and KLEIN'S GAS ARE ALL
SCAMS
All you are making is plain old molecular hydrogen and molecular oxygen. H2 and O2 . Nothing else.

There's nothing special about burning underwater - it's a stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and hydrogen, of course it's going to burn, underwater or not.

Lemon says: Sep 25, 2010. 9:41 PM REPLY


Thank you.. finally... a remark on the electrolysis of water that doesn't make me cringe and want to yell through the screen at the self-proclaimed masters
of chemistry

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
neon41 says: May 28, 2010. 12:47 AM REPLY
hey how about the fact that he gave us all a very good setup for producing hydroxy gas... who cares if its nothing special atleast this guy is trying to help
people save fuel... you are a troll

Kiteman says: May 28, 2010. 11:47 AM REPLY


Hey, how about you check your facts before you make yourself look any sillier?

The author makes grand claims for simple electrolysis, and claims that the general public know nothing about it, even though most children do it as a
basic school lab experiment.

Independent tests (by a variety of scientific bodies, plus Mythbusters and BBC TV) have shown that water electrolysis units (often incorrectly called
"HHO generators", "Brown's gas generators", "hydroxy generators" etc) contribute, at best, absolutely nothing to fuel efficiency, and some designs
actually make cars use more fuel, thanks to drains on the car's electrical system.

neon41 says: Jan 20, 2011. 10:33 PM REPLY


before you make yourself look sillier do research on fuel saving devices, half of them dont work its just the driver that changes their habits
subconciously resulting in fuel saving

Kiteman says: Jan 21, 2011. 1:49 AM REPLY


If that was addressed to me, you ought to read more closely, since that is what I said.

carrierpilot1357 says: Sep 7, 2010. 10:50 PM REPLY


okay, with all do respect I would like to mention that the mythbuster's test was not very fair, as they did not add electrolyte to the water, so their
results ended up very bad. I think if they would have added electrolyte to the water in the generator, they would have gotten better results, though
yes, it still would have been busted because the theory that you can get fuel efficiency from using energy that was already produced with the
engine through burning fuel is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard (that is against the laws of physics, is it not?), and yes, it is a scam. I just
don't think it is fair to list mythbusters as they did not bust the myth correctly.(it is a good show though :P)

although would you agree that this system would be good for things such as microtorches due to the extremely high heat hydrogen gas burns at?

Kiteman says: Sep 8, 2010. 2:28 AM REPLY


1. No published plans for water splitters installed in cars call for an electrolyte.

2. Increased *efficiency* is possible - an IC engine is only around 35% efficient, so changing the way the fuel burns is a feasible method of
increasing mileage.

3. Hydrogen is fairly useless as a heat-producing fuel. Larger-molecule gases are much better.

jj.inc says: Jan 8, 2011. 9:22 PM REPLY


Not entirely useless, just mostly. It is fun to blow stuff up with like the mythbusters shooting through milk episode.
Also "No" is a little strong, you just have to look deep and have a good set of people and other sources, so basically mythbusters did it
right.
One last thing, who doesn't like to talk about how many Liters per Minute they make. ha ha

carrierpilot1357 says: Sep 8, 2010. 3:43 PM REPLY


1. really... I didn't know that. I guess the mythbusters did do it correctly then...

2. you know more than me :P

3.hmm... I didn't know that either...

so you are saying other than for science experiments this kind of technology is essentially pointless?

Kiteman says: Sep 9, 2010. 4:00 AM REPLY


No. It could be useful.

The problem is the expectations of those using the idea, and the advertised advantages from those currently selling it.

It *could* bring benefits in terms of fuel efficiency, but it cannot be used to get more energy from the gasoline than was originally
stored there. Using a gsoline engine, for instance, purely to run an electrolytic plant so that the car could run entirely on the gases
produced could work, but at a hugely-reduced milage.

hipercool12 says:
How about you guys do some research instead of arguying without any facts...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V3F-498MBG5-
103&_user=10&_coverDate=07%2F31%2F1994&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_sea

They got good results using vaporising water and splicing it into H2 - O using an electric arc, which arc is alimented by the car alternator. Th

By the way, it's a study from the MIT... so there's no doubt about it's credibility...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Kiteman says: Feb 3, 2011. 10:02 AM REPLY
You didn't even read the abstract, did you?

> Hydrogen as an alternative to gasoline.

> Hydrogen made from gasoline.

It also says that there is a possibility that hydrogen could increase the efficiency of the gasoline burn, something I said here on
Sept 8th, 2010.

What you propose (splitting water with an electric arc run from an alternator driven by burning the split water) is *not* feasible -
it runs counter to all the laws of thermodynamics.

rsmith5413 says: Sep 7, 2010. 5:50 PM


(removed by author or community request)

theburn7 says: Jan 15, 2011. 5:49 PM REPLY


don't use one on a lawn mower or any other small engine that is 2 cycle, as they need a 50:1 (usually) gas/fuel mixture in order to run
correctly, or else it would run too lean, and damage the engine forever

dark sponge says: Nov 20, 2008. 5:38 PM REPLY


Someone needs a nap...

dark sponge says: Aug 18, 2010. 8:33 AM REPLY


I was just looking thought this Instructable and saw my old comment here, and decided to do some clarifying.

What I meant was, while there is nothing "special" about the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen generated by this, to most people it's very exciting and
fun to have a homemade cheap electric torch that burns underwater. And there is nothing "special" about a torch that burns underwater, it's just
because it supplies oxygen to the hydrogen. But most people don't have anything that can burn underwater like this, so to them it is exciting.

Yes, many people think it improves efficiency of engines which it does NOT, and some people even think up crazier things about it. It is just hydrogen
and oxygen, nothing special, but this can be quite an exciting project for fun.

I respect your effort to correct the pseudosciences of the world, it's just that sometimes you have to see what people are actually claiming before you
correct them. All of those names like hydroxy that he used, he was simply using them to refer to the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen (at least I hope
so), not some "special" gas. Although he does say you can "boost an I.C.E" right at the beginning, everything else seems valid to me.

petercd says: Aug 1, 2008. 2:31 AM REPLY


Allow me to help you before you manage to change gears and SHOVE your other foot in your mouth.

Hydroxy my preffered label for essentially "electrolytic gas" means a Hydrogen and Oxygen gas combined. Some used to call it oxyhydrogen...rather
clumsy in my opinion.

Therefore as you pointed out in a rather blasé manner ...

it's a stoichiometric mixture of oxygen and hydrogen, of course it's going to burn

WELL YES Its Hydroxy and it carries its own oxygen to combust rather differently from ordinary hydrogen. Its plain to the eye that its NO SCAM.

What is a SCAM, is the fact that in todays day and age people should have to pay decent money for info that is free , well if this instructable ends "that"
scam, then mission accomplished.

"There's nothing special about burning underwater"

Well excuse me Spongebob Fancypants ready at a moments notice to whip out your "Thermal-lance" and weld something in your pineapple house
under the sea.
For the benefit of normal everyday folk similar to myself who have never seen a gas flame burning underwater, an extract from a dive welder's related
site....

"An underwater torch must therefore have a separate means for sustaining a bubble around the work location. This is accomplished by separate jets of
compressed air introduced around the tip of the torch to protect the flame from the surrounding water by forming a rather large bubble enclosing the
flame and the region directly adjacent to the work location.
As you might imagine, a great deal of skill is required for divers who perform this kind of work"

jonjones48 says: Jun 6, 2010. 5:52 PM REPLY


You do realize that HO mixed with the other unreacted hydrogen atoms would imediately form H2O, and by the way HHO is the same as saying H -
H - O thats imposibe what your creating is 2x H - H & O = O Hydrogen can ONLY form one bond oxygen forms two bonds or in other word cut-the-
**** and do your research. PS: I barely ever contribute to this site btw

NRen2k5 says: Oct 24, 2008. 5:44 AM REPLY


"Hydroxy my preffered label for essentially "electrolytic gas" means a Hydrogen and Oxygen gas combined. Some used to call it oxyhydrogen...rather
clumsy in my opinion."'

A little more appropriate, though. Like how a torch that uses acetylene and oxygen is called an oxyacetylene torch.

"Its plain to the eye that its NO SCAM."


http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Selling people on the idea that the reaction chain somehow conjures free energy out of nowhere is a scam.

"What is a SCAM, is the fact that in todays day and age people should have to pay decent money for info that is free, well if this instructable ends
"that" scam, then mission accomplished."

Empty rhetoric.

dchall8 says: Jul 31, 2008. 7:22 PM REPLY


KITEMAN! What is so wrong that this merits shouting in large font? My flashlight Instructable makes plain ordinary light by connecting (almost) ordinary
batteries to an (almost) ordinary light bulb inside an ordinary flashlight. Certainly my Instructable is less spectacular than this one.

jj.inc says: Jan 8, 2011. 9:23 PM REPLY


You are awesome, such an insult with such plain words.

ARVash says: Jul 31, 2008. 5:19 PM REPLY


Also salt as an electrolyte does not make Chlorine gas, this is a common misconception. It would not be fair to say that it is a "scam", it just doesn't do all
that much, but if you're using a milk jug and water bottle bubbler, it can be cheap fun (: .

petercd says: Aug 1, 2008. 6:57 PM REPLY


"Also salt as an electrolyte does not make Chlorine gas, this is a common misconception."<br/><br/>Not according to <a rel="nofollow"
href="http://aquarius.nasa.gov/electrolysis.php">http://aquarius.nasa.gov/electrolysis.php</a><br/><br/>Near the bottom of the page...<br/>"The
upper equation shows the oxidation (i.e., loss of electrons from an atom) at the anode and <strong>release of chlorine gas</strong> (i.e., Cl2).
NOTE: Cl- is easier to oxidize than water, thus the product formed at the cathode is chlorine gas."<br/>

rsmith5413 says: Sep 7, 2010. 6:48 PM REPLY


thank you. my next comment was going to be that people living next to
our oceans or salt water would have a gold mine here.

but, for simple and basic carb type engines. lawn mowers, garden tractors,
etc. and also for pre 1970 automobiles that were built without those nasty
devices called 'oxygen sensors'.

but hey! if you could expand yet 1 more section to this. see what happens, is
both the H and O gases are pointed into the engine. the sensors sense more
oxygen coming in than normal. and the results is the computer pumps in
more gas. it'll work fine for about a week. but after that, hmmm! yes, no.

but, if you could seperate the H gas from the O gas, pipe the H gas into the
engine. and discard the O. this could work.

you can purchase plans, etc. for a device to trick the sensors. but, in most
states if not all, it is again illegal to tamper with these sensors. go figure.
haha!

Kiteman says: Jul 31, 2008. 5:34 PM REPLY


I don't mean this author is a scam artist, I mean he has fallen for a scam.

skunkbait says: Jul 31, 2008. 8:42 PM REPLY


Kite, I agree tha Brown's, Klein's, etc. are over-hyped, but I can't deny the 7mpg gain (tested over 4000 miles) with a similar contraption. Maybe it
was cooling the intake better, I don't know, but as long as he's not selling anything, I wouldn't go so far as to say "SCAM".

petercd says: Aug 1, 2008. 2:43 AM REPLY


As a single parent with 2 teenagers I don't have the time to manufacture these devices to satisfy the demands from my neighbourhood let
alone a city.

I have also designed my life such that I don't need to flog these devices to make money, actually I can afford to build to my hearts desire
without taking food out of my children's mouths.

Bottom line, its safe to say I will never be selling these devices.

Just for info, I didn't take an ache over your comment :)

rsmith5413 says: Sep 7, 2010. 6:59 PM REPLY


hints on what your's will right now.
and hints on changes that could be made to improve it.
nothing more, nothing less.

thank you,

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
rsmith5413 says: Sep 7, 2010. 6:58 PM REPLY
Peter, I too am on your side. these devices do work. people just need to be
aware what they will work on and what they won't. I'm just throwing out hints.

skunkbait says: Aug 1, 2008. 2:46 AM REPLY


That comment was for kiteman, wasn't it? I was actually sticking up for you!

Kiteman says: Aug 1, 2008. 4:17 AM REPLY


I'm putting this reply at the end of the thread so everybody can read it.

Peter;

OK, maybe the shouting was OTT (in my defence the first thing I said was that the instructable was nice), but this came after a lot of
woo-woo bather on the forums about HHO being a wonder material etc. Call it bad timing.

Unfortunately, it does not make HHO, Brown's Gas et al. because the concepts of Brown's Gas, monatomic hydrogen being
generated, more energy being available from this gas than H2 etc are all false. That is the scam I was meaning, and I apologise if
anybody thought I was accusing you of being a scam artist.

What this is making is a simple 2:1 mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Nothing else.

I am not denying the potential as an additive to internal combustion, and I have never done so. The results reported to me so far have
been very variable, but if nothing else, it seems to provide a cleaner exhaust for those vehicles still running without a catalytic
converter.

It is the loons who think that the products of electrolysis of water are somehow different when they make it - they claim that "their"
method produces a gas that burns hotter, hot enough to cut titanium, yet will not damage flesh. Or their method produces more gas for
the same energy input. That is the scam, and that is perpetuated by people who produce perfectly-functioning electrolysis units (like
this one) and then using the wrong terms.

Regarding "hydroxy", the term is also used by the free-energy crowd to mean a gas that is made up of free hydroxyl ions (OH-) and
free monatomic hydrogen ions (H+), which is patently nonsense. I assumed that is the meaning you were implying when you used the
term in the same list as the woo-woo terms.

Regarding divers, I have seen a mechanic shove an ordinary oxy-acetylene torch into a bucket of water when already lit and it
continued to burn. The divers, though, are burning the acetylene under far greater pressure, and they also have to keep the surface
being cut clear of water. That is the skill, coping with the extreme conditions.

Time to accuse other people:

The fault lies in the "facts" presented by other people, specifically the "International Hydroxy" website. A quick analysis:

1- It is made in perfect stoichiometric ratio two hydrogen atoms to one oxygen atom.

It's two molecules of hydrogen and one molecule of oxygen.

2- It has a flame speed of 8160 ft/per second Mach 7.5 (H2 is only 680 ft/per second).

Utterly, utterly wrong - if this was the case, you would have to pump the gas out at the same speed just to stop the flame burning all
the way back up the tube. If you want hyper-sonic burn-rates, try C4.

3- It will combust with an air fuel ratio of up to 95:1 (95 parts air to 1 part hydrogen).

True. It won't be complete combustion, but it will combust.

4- It has catalytic characteristics, adjusting its flame temperature based on the substance contact.

False. No flame can have catalytic properties, and no flame can adjust it's own temperature. The apparent differences in heating are
entirely due to the thermal properties of the substance.

5- It when combusted recombines into a tiny water molecule, creating no pollution.

Since I'm being picky, there is the pollution generated by the original electrolysis of the water, but other wise fine.

6- When combusted in the absence of any other gases, it creates a perfect vacuum.

Utterly false. If this was the case, the molecules of water would be disappearing into nothingness. What is actually produced is water
vapour. And I'd be very impressed if anybody managed to maintain a flame in vacuum...

There we go - that's the problem. The source of the "facts" is the scam artist. Read the claims he makes for "HOH" (yes, he
believes gas is the free-ion nonsense) - that simply lighting it generates electricity, that

So I'd just like to repeat, for clarity:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
Good instructable
Well documented
Poor use of woo-woo terms - this device produces a well-known mixture of gases with no extra properties.
No scam on Petercd's behalf.

kruser495 says: Aug 1, 2008. 7:57 PM REPLY


you can make the hottest torch with hydroxy. this guy i youtube made a hydrogen torch burn white? so how can it not damage
flesh? and it was able to cut thick steel.

petercd says: Aug 2, 2008. 4:33 AM REPLY


I think that originally it was meant that the radiant heat from the flame doesnt burn flesh, because you can get quite close to
the side of the flame without any damage, as you can see in the pic. Possibly over time with the retelling of the story the
meaning got lost/exaggerated by individuals who only banter theory about and havent done actual tests.

petercd says: Aug 1, 2008. 6:00 PM REPLY


Apology accepted for where it was applicable.
I did feel it necessary to defend myself, as scammer was implied by association.

I guess I'm partly to blame for my enthusiastic "copy and paste" from Hydroxy sites, which are mostly unsubstantiated claims.

I used the term Hydroxy in the loosest sense, as some "web surfing" revealed that oxyhydrogen would have been more applicable.

I now understand that straight DC electrolysis alone will not produce monoatomic gas, but rather diatomic gas that contains
hydrogen in the ratio of about 70% orthohydrogen to 30% parahydrogen...and some steam.

Needless to say I dont have any equipment to check and compare the energy content vs H2, so I can neither agree or disagree
with you on that front.

I can agree with you regarding the "not damage flesh" myth.
Any carelessness with the flame will very quickly prove that we are carbon based lifeforms with charring and the smell to go with it,
especially if you happen to contact the "sweet" spot about 1mm away from the needle tip.

In my personal opinion it does sound like the Brown's Santilli's Kleins of the world are trying to outdo each other regarding their
"discovered gas" with its unique properties which they then promptly name.

Perhaps I insinuated that the gas has unique properties when I actually should have said it has unique abillities, well underwater
burning, glaze pebbles, melt and fuse glass etc were unique to me.

Re divers, what they said about maintaining the air bubble on the weld zone and skill required, my point was that I needed no such
skills or expensive high pressure equipment to do a similar feat.

On the points 1 - 6, I haven't the means to prove or disprove them, although I recall similar notions about point 4 , specifically that
it was the substance's inability to release heat that created the illusion of a catalytic flame.

Re point 2, flame speed, logic dictates that to maintain gas velocity through the torch nozzle at or above the flame front speed of
the gas mix you are burning, then the torch flame will stay lit with no flashback.

The only info I have found regarding this is that hydroxy is significantly faster than hydrogen but nowhere is a number given.

Already Google has found me with my hydroxy flame speed of 8160 ft/per second , so some editing will be in order to prevent the
continuation of possible "urban legends"

jdkchem says: Aug 14, 2008. 12:09 PM REPLY


HHO gas as described is a scam.

The energy required to split water exceeds the energy achieved from the combustion of H2 and O2.

Electrolysis of water will produce H2 and O2, AC or DC current is irrelevant.

The amount of hydrogen and oxygen gases produced by onboard electrolysis will be less than meaningful.

The hydrogen gas does not "carry" its own oxygen, that is absurd. Hydrogen and oxygen are diatomic. When you split water

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
you get H2 and O2 not some convenient silly threesome.

The existence of ortho and para hydrogen in this case is irrelevant. If you do not know the difference or why it matters why say
anything.

I highly suggest that you read the automotive section here for starters.

And, before you manage to change gears and SHOVE your other foot in your mouth , I am a chemist, you'll have to provide
more than scams and anecdotal nonsense.

lbrewer42 says: Dec 3, 2008. 6:30 AM REPLY


Hmmm - doubled my mileage in an old 85 Chrysler Lebaron - and I was using a very unsophisticated model of this concept
(but i did this back in '98 and was running the car until 2004 - not the engine - but the rest of the car wore out. Turning off
the unit reverted back to the old gas mileage.

I think the concept is not free energy as much as it is making the alternator/battery work harder (more power used from
them) to produce something that burns better/easier => less gasoline used.

Regardless - it did work - just b/c we apply proven known theories to a situation does not mean we have all the facts as to
what is happening. When data does not conform to a known law, then either we are missing something or the law is
flawed. In this case, I believe we are missing pieces as the laws involved have been shown solid.

jdkchem says: Dec 3, 2008. 7:56 AM


(removed by author or community request)

kfortner51 says: Dec 12, 2008. 12:34 AM REPLY


Okay, so when my bubbler Disintegrated at mach 7.5... that was not a disturbance in the force?

jdkchem says: Dec 12, 2008. 6:24 AM REPLY


It depends on what you ate before you sat in the tub.

lbrewer42 says: Dec 3, 2008. 2:47 PM REPLY


First of all - the manner in which you have replied shows you use your emotions for reason more than plainly using
logical thinking. The money in my wallet was proof enough for me. I took the time to develop the idea (in '98) and
used it. I put a lot of time into it and reaped the rewards. If everyone approaches new ideas from a standpoint of
theory only, then nothing new is discovered. If you have built/experimented with a unit such as this - this will qualify
you as being able to knowledgeably talk about it as you will have had hands on experience (with collected data) in
order to form your opinions. Until then, you are applying a theory to something which may or may not be an
applicable case. There are enough variables in this type of system that not all of them are being taken into account
and, hence, the theories are being applied without all of the data (there is that word again!) being considered. To
me, a former physics & chemistry teacher, I have been searching as to why this works. I have ideas ... and i have
more money in my wallet. i am not about to abandon the extra money i get to keep (instead of the oil Co's getting it)
just b/c someone says it cannot work on paper. And, BTW, please leave out crude comments. Being honest here, I
am not sure as to how serious I should take a response in which a sexually related topic is introduced into a
discussion of hydrolysis. I am not trying to be mean - I am just stating what effect such an occurrence presents me
with.

jdkchem says: Dec 3, 2008. 4:32 PM


(removed by author or community request)

lbrewer42 says: Dec 3, 2008. 8:06 PM REPLY


I will post only this last note as I asked for you to keep the conversation clean and you have not been able
to.

My first post never said anything about proving HHo gas's existence or not - simply making the statement
that I have used the entire process with great results. I made a distinct statement that I was not talking of
free energy (which, to someone well versed in this topic should have pointed out that the topic of HHo gas
was not even being discussed). I can see how you may have thought that was what i was trying to say.

My simple meaning was to say that no matter what the specifics are as to why it is working - it has been
working. I have come to believe there are other things at play here than a situation which is simple to
conform to the rules. I stated that i think my electrical system has a greater drain on it - there is no magic
here. If you try to add two numbers together - using only one number - it does not work. The principles of
simple addition of two numbers cannot be applied to an addition problem where there is only 1 number
(x+1=?). This is a simplistic view of what I think must be going with my working system - something is not
being factored into the concept or else it could not work.

I am a "former" teacher b/c I am now disabled b/c of a medical condition.

I am trying to be constructive here. Your responses have been as if I was attacking something that, to you,
has a deeply emotional attachment. Being in the scientific community all of my life, I have never seen where
this will do anything but cause future trouble for yourself and your own credibility.

By definition your response is ad hominem in nature. Also, by definition, this indicates you are not certain of
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
what you are saying or this type of response would not be needed. This is a basic principle of debate.

I made a simple post that I have been able to save a good deal of money using such a system and you
reacted like I had insulted your mother. Adding to this the repeating theme you have which has to introduce
offensive material into a conversation makes it such that further responses will do nothing but introduce
more of your emotional responses. The results will be nothing constructive. An ad hominem response
reveals a lot. please take the time to look it up - it can only help.

rsmith5413 says: Sep 7, 2010. 7:18 PM REPLY


haha! you guy's need to think small before trying to diffuse that
evil device known as an 'oxygen sensor'. you know, that device
the industry descided to put in their vehicles claiming better
economy and greener. haha! yeah, right. that device that was
put on that older vehicle, well, yeah it worked. try putting one in a
modern day car.

but, you can save some money now by putting it on your lawn tractor.
or something without a sensor or computer to receive bogus readings.
the device does work.

jdkchem says: Dec 4, 2008. 2:49 PM


(removed by author or community request)

petercd says: Dec 5, 2008. 1:19 AM REPLY


jdkchem, you seem unable to grasp lbrewer42's very valid points. You seem to play the man instead
of the ball otherwise known as argumentum ad hominem and veering way off topic which was the
practical applications of the gas.

When you can progress beyond your rather transparent ploy of demanding proof in a very purile
way, then Im sure you will enjoy both personal and professional growth.

Judging by your use of genitalia as points in an argument on what is a family orientated site, you will
most likely not have a clue as to what Im on about.

So allow me to assist...when you begin yodelling about proof what you are in effect saying is show
me some evidence that proves to ME that HHO gas exists , which then allows you to sit back in your
couch and judge whether the evidence presented is sufficient for you to believe that it exists.

After following your pattern of argument it is patently obvious that you dont even wish to try and
understand this technology and as such any evidence would be wasted on you.

Casting pearls before swine has never been known to feed nor still the swine, and it only divulges to
others the extent of ones wealth.

jdkchem says: Dec 5, 2008. 6:55 AM


(removed by author or community request)

petercd says: Dec 5, 2008. 12:09 PM REPLY


jdkchem, your agenda is so obvious that its as plain to see as an old, hot, curled up peanut-
butter sandwich in a tupperware lunchbox , and about as useful.

The sum total of your contributions since joining, soon after I published this instructable, is 9
comments all on this page and not one even vaguely constructive.

For your sake I hope you deviate from your present tantrums, quite simply because you are
liable to crack an ankle and soil yourself when I release my next hydroxy generator which
WILL EXCEED 100% Faraday electrolysis.

jdkchem says: Dec 12, 2008. 6:22 AM REPLY


That's cute. You're too cowardly and ignorant to prove your case so you resort to having
comments that call you on that removed.

petercd says: Aug 14, 2008. 2:40 PM REPLY


Im quite sure I havent mentioned AC electrolysis anywhere here, so where you came upon that concept is definitely a first,
worldwide no doubt.

If you consider 3lpm of onboard electrolysis "less than meaningfull" then perhaps you should be giving us the privilege of
your experiences and experiments, dont hold back, feel free to jump right in with your instructable.

I'm quite familiar with ortho and para hydrogen and their different energy yields and it was relevant so I mentioned it.

I suggest you take a closer look at JPL's 1974 experiments regarding oxyhydrogen injection for your own education, but
you will need many friends to help you remove your concrete blinkers.

You are so clever, in fact too clever for your own good, that you have missed a glaring fact.
Im here for the building , not to engage in a pissing contest with every wannabe rocket scientist so that he can show off
http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/
his vast knowledge, because as Rhett Butler so aptly put it......frankly my dear I dont give a damn

view all 148 comments

http://www.instructables.com/id/Hydroxy-Gas-Generator/