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The Builders Bench => Home Built Designs => Bolt actions => Topic started by: sauron on March 31, 2010, 12:07:55 AM
Title: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Post by: sauron on March 31, 2010, 12:07:55 AM
The Welrod is a UK WWII clandestine weapon used primarily by SOE and OSS, and later by their Cold Warrior
succesors.
It is a bolt action magazine fed repeating pistol. It is integrally suppressed, the receiver and suppressor being
same diameter.
Welrods are encounered in only two calibers: .32ACP and 9mm Parabellum. These two vary in small ways,
the most immediately apparent being that the .32 has no trigger guard while the 9mm does have one.
The .32 is fed from a Colt Pocket Model magazine whick is removable. The 9mm is fed from P38 magazine.
In both cases the mags serve as handles and the lower 3/4 of them are wrapped or encased in black rubber
for comfort.
The bolt is rotated anticlockwise 90 degrees to open by grasping yjr knurled surface at rear of receiver, there
is no other handle. Pull to rear and any case or round that was chambered will eject from the port at top
center. Closing the bolt feeds another round if any from mag if present. Rotate clockwise to lock.
No safety, no holdopen, only rudimentary sights as this is not designed for Camp Bisley. Camp Peary, sure.
Welrods are best used at very close range, like, contact. Metal meets meet. When I was young and
impressionable I was told that the front cap is counterbored to accomodate the consequences of such an
insult.
The bolt has two locking lugs at 180 degrees to each other. In open position these are at 12 and 6, closed at
9 and 3. A largish screw through right side of receiver at rear prevents bolt from being removed (until screw
is backed off) and keeps bolt oriented at 12 and 6 till it is ready to rotate locked.
I believe bolt cocks on opening as I do not recall any telltale SMLE feel to the forward stroke.
The barrel fits into receiver front end and is entirely surrounded by the outer suppressor tube, which also
extends well beyond the actual muzzle. TThe same screw fixes the barrel, suppressor tube and receiver
together. The barrel is ported (drilled) so that the effective barrel length us the length behind the first holes,
The basic diameter of the Welrod receiver and suppressor tube are 1.25" for the .32 and 1.375" for the 9mm.
In what passes for the fiterature of firearms various claims have been advanced for other chamberings for
Welrods from .22LR to.45 ACP In my 40 years of professional involvement with spec-ops weapons I have yet
to even get a whiff of any save .32 and 9mm. nd if you consider the ops profile of likely users in WWII it
makes excellent sense to use calibers that could be obtained from enemy forces no longer in need of their
kit.
If anyone has decent readable dimensioned drawings of the Welrods these wouls be most welcome in this
thread. For example the Frankford Arsenal and AMF silencer reports as published by Palladin and/or Desert,
appear to have been mastered from xeroxes or other analog copiers and are hard to extract dimensional
data from.
Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Post by: Grunt Medic TXARNG on March 31, 2010, 01:28:27 AM
Quote from: sauron on March 31, 2010, 12:07:55 AM

...only rudimentary sights as this is not designed for Camp Bisley. Camp Peary, sure.
Too doggone funny!!! :D
Thanks. I am sure the members knoe the diff between Peary and Perry. The former is in Virginia and the
latter is in Ohio. Only one them is of concern to the NRA.

So the receiver haS OD male threads up front for supp tube, ejection port top center, mag well bottom center,
and a screw hole rear right center for the bolt guide.
There are also two milled flats bracketing the mag well to which a pair of flaps are fastened by screws or
rivets and whicf form rgw mounting for mag housing, mag latch etc.
The bolt is rear locking not front.

Post by: mudpuppy on March 31, 2010, 06:56:14 AM
This website www.timelapse.dk/welrod.php (http://) (http://) has the most accurate information available on
the Welrods. Anders, the owner of the site, has been researching it for several years and has access to the
real thing.
The detailed drawings are not in public circulation and the copyright on those known drawings belongs to the
MOD Pattern Room and they do not allow free access. The pattern room also has several drawers full of
original Welrods in all variations.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/mudpuppyphoto/Misc/Welrod/MKI_and_MKII.jpg)
And the internal layout of the suppressor:

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/mudpuppyphoto/Misc/WelrodDWG3.jpg)

The late curator of the UK MOD Pattern Room was a close friend, and I was a guest in his Cheshunt
townhome dor several nights while I was occupied as a faculty member of an international special ops
conference at Artillery Hall near Liverpool St. station in London.
So I am no stranger at the Pattern Room, although I have not been back to Britain since '86 and my friend
Herbie Woodend passed away, Enfield is no more and the PR is now emscoced at one of one of the military
museums.
Is Anders' last name Kjellegren by chance?
Sorry to say so but that .dk link is dead.
The Thai Army had a barrelful of Welrods mouldering in their Ordnance Dept warehouse at Saphan Daeng,
Bangkok. Insects ate away at the felt wipes for decades till they were all gone. The RTA eventually destroyed
these. Too bad.
I also have access to a 9mm, in USA in the hands of a close associate. There are still plenty Welrods in the
world and if some civil servants want to pretend that 60 year old drawings are state secrets, well, let them
enjoy their folly.

Post by: mudpuppy on March 31, 2010, 07:54:29 AM
Quote from: sauron on March 31, 2010, 07:30:17 AM

Is Anders' last name Kjellegren by chance?
No it's Thygesen.

Thanks. Anders K was one of the broyjers who manufactured the KG9 and KG99 which were so
undistinguished as to make the Ingrams appear classy.

Post by: MG-42 on March 31, 2010, 08:35:22 AM
I can probably help here. I have examined a number of welrods and have a detail collection of pictures. Drop
me a PM and we can chat.

Post by: resting on March 31, 2010, 09:31:35 AM
Good info. This would make a good project to follow on from the Liberator. Look forward to further details
and drawings should they come available. Thanks.

The Welrod bolt is an assembly of two major pieces, the cocking piece/locking lugs, and the bolt body.
These are pinned together with a strong solid steel pin.
It should be obvious that making these and the receiver is a matter for fixturing rather than cut and try.
Overall dimensions
.32 ACP: 12" long, 1.25" OD basic
9x19mm: 14.6" long x 1.375" OD basic
As you can see scaleup to 9mm had its price.
That is why I would be inclined toward 9x17 (.380 ACP) in same size package as the slimmer shorter .32

Post by: sauron on March 31, 2010, 02:01:29 PM
Here is a pretty decent image of the top of a Welrod action with bolt open and mag out. You can see the
2x180 deg rear lugs,.

Post by: NevadaBlue on March 31, 2010, 04:25:08 PM
I'm going to post what I have also. The 3D images that Mongo made are good enough to build from. Using
the blueprint above to derive measurements from, I be we can work up something.

Post by: mudpuppy on March 31, 2010, 04:48:33 PM
Some info from the past, have to split it up because of the upload limit.
Welrod Mk IA
[attachment=1]

Welrod Mk II
[attachment=1]

Welrod Mk IIA
[attachment=1]

Here are the excellent renderings from mongo. The PDF file has 12, one is shown as an example in this post.
[attachment=1]

Thanks mudpuppy, good info! :-*
Here are the files from the apparently defunct website www.timelapse.dk (http://) (http://) (http://)
If the website or a replacement shows up, we can delete these files.

Post by: sauron on April 01, 2010, 12:36:16 AM
So far I havent spotted any ejector so can someone tip me off?
The extractor, its pin and notch, plunger and soring etc are clearly shown but no ejector.
I still can't open www.timekaose.dk (http://) but thanks to nevadablue I don' need yo.

Post by: sauron on April 01, 2010, 03:51:04 PM
Let's start by compiling a parts list, group by group as a jumping off point for detailed drawings and eventual
dimensioning.
Receiver group
Barrel w/screw
rear sight
receiver stripped
Bolt Stop screw
Sear w.pin
sear spring w/pin
Bolt group
bolt body
cocking member
bolt pin (fastens bolt body, striker spring guide and cocking member)
extractor w/pin
extractor plunger w/spring & pin
striker (firing pin) w/spring
strker spring guide
Trigger group
Trigger w/spring
Trigger plunger
Trigger brackets (2)
Trigger bracket screws (4)
Magazine interface group
Mag Housing
grip safety w/spring and pin
Mag Colt .32 modified or 9mm P38 (modified?)
Suppressor Group - do this last.
Iwill keep adding to this until complete. Assistance with nomenclature is solicited. So is dimensioning, a;;oy
and heat treat/hardness info. Working assumptions 4130 and for coil springs, music wire.
I reassigned the "flaps" and their screws to trigger group and renamed them as trugger brackets. It looks like
the upper rectangular part of trigger slides between those bracket halves and and receiver bottom'surrounds
the mag housing, while the hollow tubular lower part of trigger contains a coil spring and plunger that rest on
front of mag well and provide trigger return.
Obviously the rectangular cutout in upper trigger is longer than mag housing but of similar width.

Post by: Mongo on April 01, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
Quote from: sauron on April 01, 2010, 12:36:16 AM

So far I havent spotted any ejector so can someone tip me off?
The extractor, its pin and notch, plunger and soring etc are clearly shown but no ejector.
I still can't open www.timekaose.dk (http://) (http://) (http://) but thanks to nevadablue I don' need yo.
If you look carefully at my model in the pictures NevadeBlue posted, you will see a tab that sticks up from the
magazine well. This acts as an ejector.
It can be clearly seen in this picture
(http://home.comcast.net/~sfischer397/temp/welrod6.jpg)
Here are some other images I have saved over time

(http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/8334/cutwellrod1p.jpg)
(http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/1276/cutwellrod2.jpg)
(http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/6117/wellrod.jpg)
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2408/wellrod2.jpg)
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2756/wellrod3.jpg)

Thanks, Mongo. I did see the tab atop the mag well but did not apprehens its function. So, it pays to ask!
The cocking member looks like a b**ch to cut, CNC will do it with a ball endmill but not during the 40s.
Shaper, do you reckon? Ordinarily I would mill that with a half round (189 deg) cutter on a horizontal mill but
not that close to the damned rear flange.
Thanks again.

A digression,
It's 70 years since the Welrod was introduced and technology never stands still. By the 1960s efficient and
reliable semi auto 9mm pistols were developed with wipe typw muzzle cans and slide locks, thus they were
manually operated repeaters and quieter than the Welrod, as well as having 2-3x longer life between changes
of the modular wioe packaged. These were the famous Hush Puppes originally on S&W pistols and as of the
80s on the Beretta 92F with further wipe improvements and self openins slide locks. Knight is the leader in
these types of cans.
Also by the 80s wipeless suppressor designs has matched or exceeded the acoustic performance of the
above and required no slide locks, therefore providing semiauto suppressed handgun capability.
My point is that the Welrod is a historically significant weapon but is long overtaken by better ones.
The Chinese and North Koreans have suppressed s/a pistols and rhe Russians have the P6 resembling
superficiallu the PM.

An open quesrion: see attached image of MkIIa .32 viewed from lower left tear.
There is some sort of lug under receiver. Above it is a small milled flat and a drilled pin hole. A corresponding
cut and hole is probably on right side fir disassy.
What is rgis lug and its function?
My guess is that it is a component of the trigger to striker chain of functionality.
Second query: the barrel slips or is pressed into a hole in front end of receiver. This is a truncated cone at OD
then threads for supp tune, and a predrilled and tapped hole allows a socket screw to lock the tube, receiver
and barrel together so that the feed ramp into chamber is a 6 o'clock.
My question: is this turnwd out of solid receiver blank (insane) or is it a trunnion/bbl bushing a la Sten and
then fastened into receiver tube? (Saner)
Post by: NevadaBlue on April 02, 2010, 12:16:07 PM
The only thing I see under the receiver is shown better in this cutaway view. A pinned part...
(http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10469.0;attach=32774;image)

Harder to see in sectioned view but in both it is ayyached to receiver bottom.
The floating parts under receiver section are trigger and magazine housing.
But what is the pinned part and what does it do?
Incidentally the suppressor outfit bought by Cerberus is called AAC in Norcross GA and the boss is a real
estate guy.

Post by: Dix on April 02, 2010, 04:48:09 PM
Isn't it the sear?

Yeah it is the sear, looks like I for got to "explode" it when I was doing the model view for NevadaBlue. The
barrel is held in with a screw and might be pressed, the drawings that reverse engineered it did not say but
since they must have gotten the original apart to make the drawings I guess that the screw was the only
retainer.

Thasnks, Mongo!. The existance of a sear makes tghe trigger to striker connection complete and the
operation clear. The wedge at rear of trigger upper pulls sear down, releasing striker. The sear must therefore
be pinned on a slot and also there must be a sear spring to return it upwards when trigger is released.
Simple.
My associate in USA now has a .32 Welrod as well as a 9mm, and also I have been informed there are at
least two Welrods in Thai military museums which are just a day trip for me from Bangkok.
I would now also expect that the striker cocks on the forward stroke of the bolt.
The clouds are beginning to part. Thanks again.
Mongo, I think I have only one mystery remaunung that you may clarift\y if you aare willing. What is that
quarter circular sleeve shown next to the bolt? Surely it goes internal to receiver as it is visible nowhere on
receiver exterior when weapon is assembled. Pinned in before rear cap is mounted? Perhaps it serves to
limit the rotation of the bolt? Are there one of these or two?
Missing from renderings aew rge grip safety abd the mag latch and their associated pins and springs.
Is my parts list (save for suppressor) now complete?

Post by: zebdeming on April 02, 2010, 11:32:59 PM
This is all really interesting stuff here. Thanks guys.
Quote
Sure looks like it, I don't see a cocking cam cut into it. It would definatly be eaiser to build that way.
lots of great ideas here.
Zeb

Quote from: sauron on April 02, 2010, 10:56:22 PM
Mongo, I think I have only one mystery remaunung that you may clarift\y if you aare willing. What is that quarter circular sleeve shown next
to the bolt? Surely it goes internal to receiver as it is visible nowhere on receiver exterior when weapon is assembled. Pinned in before rear
cap is mounted? Perhaps it serves to limit the rotation of the bolt? Are there one of these or two?
Missing from renderings aew rge grip safety abd the mag latch and their associated pins and springs.
Is my parts list (save for suppressor) now complete?
Yes it is cock on closing.
The cap seems to be only on the American version of the gun from what I can tell. I was not sure what it did
until I built the 3D model and looked more closely at its interaction with the rest of the gun. It is there to
make sure the grip safety is not depressed when the bolt is in the unlocked or partially locked position. It
blocks the downward travel of the grip safety. The portion of the cap is silver soldered onto the bolt
knob/handle. You can see this in the real gun picture of the DK production pdf file posted earlier in this
thread.
The model has all the pins in it except the maybe 1 or 2 for the missing pieces that I have not gotten around
to modeling. The springs are all missing but I have the original AutoCAD files for them, just did not both
doing them yet either.

Thanks. So it is external after all, but peculiar to the American Welrods, i.e., Welrods delivered to the OSS by
UK.
I have never encountered one on the Welrods I have examined.
The grip safety is pretty necessary on the .32 with no guard. It seems less needed on the 9mm,
The real Achilles heel is the mag latch of the .32 which was prone to inadvertent operation. (Unexpected loss
of mamazine = death in combat.
In the 9mm the mag latch was redesigned and relocated to behind the trigger, inside the guard.
Thanks again!

What are the consequences of the squeezing of grip safety when bolt is not fully locked, on the MkII and
MkIIA without the "cap"?
Whay would result if grip safety were uninstalled?
I would be inclined to add a trigger guard to MkII/IIa and drop the safety; also to relocate or redesign the very
unsatisfactory mag latch.
Also I suspect that the 1/8" larger diameter and 2.6" extra lenhth were added to accomodate the
suppressor's needs with the wipe technology of the 40s. However the suppressor systems of the 2nd
decade of the 21st century are compatible with the diameter and length of the MkII even if the chambering is
9mm Para instead.

Meanwhile I ha been considering the receiver and how it must have started out.
Material 4130 CrMo if it is self respecting.
Initially a piece of bar stock or possibly heavy wall seamless tube.
Consider Mongo's sectioned view below attached. Ignore the sear and the rear cap as these are really
seperate pieces. Ignore the external operations: the front taper, the suppressor thread, the sight dovetail and
the ejection port, and rge side flats and bottom flats. Restore the receiver to its blankest 0% state.
It is a bar or it is bar with a hole through.
It looks to me like the hole (whether put there ar the steel mill or gundrilled through) is or at least will be
finished to the OD of the rear of the barrel.
Mongo, wo;; you tell us the rear barrel OD?
It also looks like the rear of receiver gets bored out and partially threaded for that rear cap which is drilled
and double splined to pass the cocking member wiyj its locking lugs.
So if I am right there are two and only two IDs in the receiver.
Now a word on gundrills. Any timr you have to drill more than 4-5 doa,eters deep a twist drill will not do. The
answer is a gun drill, so called because of their use in drilling barrel blanks prior to gunreaming and rifling.
Unless you are a barrel maker you are unlikely to have a gundrill in your machine shop. They operate at high
speeds and very slow feeds and high pressure oil is fed through the tool by a pump.
Besides the receiver, the bolt bosy also looks like a gundrill job.
Yes BSA (who made the Welrods) had gundrills in WWII.

The receiver is drilled and reamed to 0.625" thru and is made from bar stock. It is not composed of pieces
according to the drawing I got. I'm guessing the lug cut outs would have
been broach cut originally.
Barrel shank is 0.627" so it is press fit before the set screw is installed.

Here is a file I found that I forgot I had. It is a pdf of a cross section of the Welrod in 32 acp and 9mm.
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9366/welrod.pdf
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9366/welrod.pdf)

Thanks, mongo that saves me some legwork.
A basic ID pf 0.625 means, for a tube nominally 1.25", a wall thickness of 0.312". Seamless cold drawn 4130
tube like that is used in aerospace and nuclear industries and is usually sold in condition N (annealed) and
has some tolerances for OD, ID, OOR and straihjyness. Buy a little over on OD, under on ID, ream to ID then
turn OD to dinal and trim to length.
This avoids gundrilling.
The basic bolt OD must be a little under .625, like maybe .620.
The bolt has to slide freely after all.
In production certainly those rear cap splines are broached. In small runs, drill or bore center, endnukk skots
and file to square rgw splines. A broach puller is another machine rarely foun in home shops

Thanks Mongo. I tried to post earlier and it went into nowhere... the drawings in that file are really high
quality. I like the MKII with the trigger guard. :-* It would make a neat gun with NO front end, just cut off at
the end of the barrel, I think.

Unfortunately I'm not a machinist or gunsmith but I know gun design. I am thinking of designing a 9mm
variant but would need some one to make the thing. Anyone interested? I could design it so that it could be
built w/o the integral suppressor. Maybe use 9mm Springfield EMP magazines since I have those on hand.
The design could be updated enough to eliminate broach cuts and update to more modern machining
methods (aka CNC). Just need a volunteer to work with me on the project.
BTW did I get that file from you? Just can't remember where I collect all the stuff I find.

I have never counted myself a gunsmith. I am a self taught machinist and a student of firearms design.
The greatest small arms designers I ever knew were self taught. I can think of many more I never met who
also learned on their own.
The key to the Welrod is headspacing. Identifying the parts that define the relationship between bolt face and
chamber and then being careful not to overdefine that. In the end a set of Go and No Go gages will give the
verdict.
The bolt assy, rear cap, receiver and barrel are the parts involved.
I would definitely not press fit the barrel to receiver, I;d slip fit it, key iy so the feed ramp is at 6, and hold it in
with a bushing a la Sten MkII. This wouls allow disassy and the chamber reamed last so foolproof.
You want proper fit without play of the locking lugs to rear cap, in other words the thickness of the rear cap
and the width od the gap netween the inside face of the cocking piece and the rear or rgw lugs needs to be
perfect. Too tighy and bolt will not lock, any slop and you can kiss headspace adios.
The bolt assy OAL is critical and so is yje receiver OAL and the length from rear of barrel to the shoulder
where barrel butts against front of receiver. Get any of these three wrong and eiyjer bolt assy can;t close or a
gap wo;; exist between front of bolt and rear of barrel. BAD BAD BAD.
Inproduction such matters are handled by tolerancing and gaging and the use of foxtures. If making a one-
off, things are simpler.
-------
Back to the sear. Mongo, my initial assumtion was that the sear travels up and down on a pin through a
slotted shaft and with a captive compression spring on the shaft under the pin to raise it when not being
acted on by the wedge of the trigger.
Now in your sectioned view I see it may actually pivot on a pin in which case its spring may be a flat one. Can
you clarify?
-----------
Also what is the precise overall length of the stripped receiver?

Post by: jlwilliams on April 05, 2010, 09:52:43 AM
This kind of goes hand in hand with another topic that's floating around a few sights right now; a bolt action
in 9mm (or any auto pistol caliber).
The Welrod is one of a short list of bolt actions that has been made in this sort of cartridge. There is a
certain amount of want out there for bolt action rifles as suppressor hosts, and there is of course a demand
for WelRod reproductions. A bolt action rifle with the magazine in the grip and a welrod are really similar
builds. Big differences being the stock and the bolt having either a handle or a knurled dial; oh yeah, and the
barrel length.
If someone were to start making reproductions, or even components like the bolts and locking sections of
the receivers that could be adaptable to either a pistol or rifle build (suppressed or not) they would be well
recieved. I don't think any of the major manufacturers is about to start offering 9mm bolt actions (I think
they should, but that doesn't mean they will) but a small shop could sell all they want. If it's a kit, not an FFL
item, that would offer some degree of liability protection in that the customer would be building the gun.
Responsability falling to them for all that entails.
A prexis or any other maker Welrod kit would be great. I know I need one. No, I know I need AT LEAST one.
At least a few of you do too.

The Apanish "Destroyer" carbine was a 9mm Largo b/a repeater used by police in the 30s, these used to be
cheap and plentiful on the surplus market.
The DeLisle was a WWII UK contemporary of the Welrod, iy was a SMLE convertrd to .45 ACP and used a
1911 magazine.
The XP100 is often rebarreled to a wide variety of factory and wildcat calibers and could be the basis for a
suppressed weapon.
Thw Winchester M70 was platform for a subsonic suppressed .458x1.5" with 500 gr FMJ. This was an AAI
product for the government.
The TC Contender is an excellent choice for suppressing.

Post by: NevadaBlue on April 05, 2010, 11:42:39 AM
Mongo, I don't know about that file. I can't keep track of the stuff I have collected either. :D
All, When designing and thinking about this gun, don't forget this one.
[attachment=1]
Look at the Model 1 file from timelapse for more info.

-------
Back to the sear. Mongo, my initial assumtion was that the sear travels up and down on a pin through a slotted shaft and with a captive
compression spring on the shaft under the pin to raise it when not being acted on by the wedge of the trigger.
Now in your sectioned view I see it may actually pivot on a pin in which case its spring may be a flat one. Can you clarify?
-----------
Also what is the precise overall length of the stripped receiver?
The sear is elevated by what I would best describe as a mouse trap type of spring.
(http://images.clipartof.com/small/82881-Royalty-Free-RF-Clipart-Illustration-Of-A-3d-Mouse-Trap-Ready-To-
Spring.jpg)
The length of the overall receiver is 4.127"

Thanks, mongo.
The technical name for that sort of spring is a torsion spring and I am sure its main coil is located around the
sear pin.
With the OD, ID and OAL of receiver defined we can draw the receiver blank.
Here is my list of the machining operations that need to be done to finish the receiver.
1. Bore and thread the rear ID for rear cap
2. Drill and tap bolt stop screw hole
3. Mill rear sight dovetail
4. Mill flats for sear pin hole and sear spring pin hole and drill holes
Thanks to no1_sonuk.
5. Mill flats for trigger brackets and drill & tap screw holes
6. Mill bottom flats
7. Mill mag well
8. Mill ejection port
9. Turn shoulder for supp. mounting threads and cut threads
10. Turn taper at receiver front.
11. Mill sear pocket slot.
`2. Drill & tap hole for barrel and supp.tube retaining tube (Note: do this with supp. outer tube in place)
Mongo, have I overlooked anything?
Drilling on a radius (as for bolt stop screw and barrel ret. screw holes) is always a pain as the drill wants to
wander. Use a pump jig (I will post link) and correct drill bushing. The jig jas an adjustable stop for locating in
X axis.
http://www.heinrichco.com/drill_jig_hand-op.htm (http://www.heinrichco.com/drill_jig_hand-op.htm)

Post by: No1_sonuk on April 05, 2010, 09:13:54 PM

Thanks, mongo.
The technical name for that sort of spring is a torsion spring and I am sure its main coil is located around the sear pin.
I think you might be confusing the sear pin and sear spring pin locations.
The sear pin is just behind the mag housing (it'll be under the trigger brackets), but the spring pin is roughly
half-way between the sear pin and the back end of the receiver - the separate cutout to the rear of where the
safety engages on the trigger plate (which think you're describing as "4. Mill flats for sear pin hole and drill
hole").
The (earlier?) MKIIs with no side plate trigger brackets might have the spring coil around the sear pin, but not
the ones with trigger brackets.
Also;
Any particular reason for the "rear cap"? The original drawings show it as solid. Is it just so you don't have to
turn the internal groove for the bolt lugs?

No1_sonuk;
It has been quite a few years since I had a Welrod in my hand, and I never detail-stripped one. I owned one of
the MAC copies, made by Jim Leatherwood while he was VP Engineering for Mitch, and have examines a
dozen originals in the last 40 years. Bot till now I have never contemplating making one. The MAC copy was
rather wretched with its chamber reamed off axis and the Werbell suppressor innards were noisy as hell.
Anyway so far I am working from Mongo's renderings, Amders' pages, and phoyos from several sources.
Here in Thailand the military have a few originals in museums which I will examine asap and a colleague has
one eack MkIIa and MkI in USA which I can access.
So thanks, I must have overlooked the second pin hole on Mongo's 3D model - I saw only thy the flat and hole
further back on the unsectioned view. On the sectioned view I saw the sear was pinned just begind the mag
housing, and pivots down rather than riding staihjy down. Until you posted I had not reconciled these
conflicts, so yjanks again!
As to the rear cap as I call it, in the photos on Anders; site (timelapse.dk, which is presently down) there is a
socket screw or pin located at 11 o'clocl about 3/4 way into the cap and 1/4 into receiver wall. This is
apparently done (I surmise) at assembly to fix the position of the splines for rhe locking lugs at the vertical
(12 and 6) positionSo I reasoned that the piece must be threaded in.
If indeed it is integral to receiver then that is certainly stroger, but then what is that pin or screw at 11 for?
And yes, boring the relief in the receiver ID so that the lugs can rotate to horizontal might be problematic.
It may be merely my tired old single eye playing tricks, but I rhought I saw a ghost of a seam beteen the
reciver and this cap or block or wgatever nomenclatore is correct. Hard to see and maybe imaginary.
By original drawings do you mean the BSA prints at the MOD Pattern Room?

Mongo, can you tell us the length of the barrel from rear face to shoulder?
And the length of the reduced diameter of the bolt bosy (the rear part that goes into cocking member and is
pinned in it.)
Thanks in advance@

Post by: No1_sonuk on April 06, 2010, 04:20:18 AM
I've been studying information all over the web for a few weeks now with the intention of making an airsoft
version of this gun. Mongo's models and this thread have tied up a lot of the loose ends I had from photos
alone.
If the pin you're referring to is the one shown on the back of the 2 guns in the image you attached, that is the
bolt detent pin. It's spring-loaded to provide a "lock" to stop the bolt handle rotating open on its own. The
bolt handle (the knurled part) has a shallow hole (more like a dent) in it to locate on this pin when it's closed.
If you think about where it is, it would need to partially go through the open cutout, making it too weak to
hold a cap on. Also, the recoil from the round firing is taken wholly on the bolt lugs, meaning any cap would
eventually come off if it was pinned from the end.
For my airsoft version, I was considering the cap idea, mainly to make conversion to a live weapon
dangerously impractical (especially as I intend to use aluminium), but also to make cutting the groove far
easier. My thought was to pin it radially - in from the sides of the receiver.
The drawings I refer to are the cross sections like in the "welrod.pdf" document posted earlier by Mongo:
Quote from: Mongo on April 04, 2010, 03:58:27 PM
Here is a file I found that I forgot I had. It is a pdf of a cross section of the Welrod in 32 acp and 9mm.
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9366/welrod.pdf (http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9366/welrod.pdf)
Those drawings don't show any break lines for a rear cap.
Mongo, can you tell us the length of the barrel from rear face to shoulder?
And the length of the reduced diameter of the bolt bosy (rge reR PART THAT GOES INSIDE THE COCKING MEMBER AND GETS PINNED?
tHANKS IN ADVANCE
My research indicates that would be 0.9 inches. That's based on the "cocking member" (I call it "bolt
handle") being 1.2 inches o/all length with a 0.3 inch recess in the knurled end.
My 1.2 inch measurement comes from 0.4 inch lugs + 0.4 inch reduced part + 0.4 inch knurled part -
measurements scaled from Mongo's images, assuming 1.5 inch diameter knurled part.
EDIT* Underscored for clarity the part of Sauron's post I was answering

I wish you luck with your airsoft project.
As to the rest, have you ever handled or fired a Welrod?
Some have. I have. As soon as I have another in front of me, no questions will remain and no reliance need
be made to the interpretation of images.
Ultimately measurements need to be done from syeel, by vernier, micromter, gage blocks, pin gages, height
gages, thread pitch gages and so on. We work to three decimel places not 1. Thousandths of an inch. While
some non critical dimensions might be inyerpolated, I intend to make all parts fully inyerchangeable with the
original including alloy and heat treat. Only the suppressor will be different as we have learned a lot in 70
years. I spent 25 years designing suppressed weapons professionally.
Agaim I wish you luck with your airsoft.

Thanks.
I'm not the one that needs to be careful it doesn't blow up in my hand! :o
WRT measurements; one thing I've noticed is that within a reasonable percentage of error, considering the
scaling method I've used to obtain dimensions from images, most of the dimensions appear to come out at
inch fractional increments, specifically 1/8, 1/10, or 1/20.
Bearing in mind the only really critical dimensions relate to the magazine and cartridge itself (I presume), I'd
not be surprised if this were actually the case. It'd certainly simplify low-volume manufacture - not worth
making expensive tools, jigs, etc. for a low-volume production run when a skilled machinist can hit such
fractional measurements easily. Especially if some parts only require "cleaning up" of stock-size materials.
e.g. the receiver bore - 0.625 inches (stated by Mongo) is 5/8 - almost certainly there's going to be a reamer
for that readily available, and it's far easier to use a lathe to shave a bit off a 5/8 bar to make a sliding fit bolt,
than to use 5/8 for the bolt and find/make a reamer for the receiver. Even the bolt's internal bore comes out
at 3/8 - another regular reamer size.
This is further borne out by the 1/8 increment holes and stock size parts (e.g. 1 1/4 OD, 5/8 ID receiver), and
any 1/10 or 1/20 increments are from cuts).
As I'm not making mine with a view to compatibility with real parts, and it would be visually "close enough", I
will be proceeding on the assumption that the above is correct.
Your compatability approach will, of course, require more accuracy than if you were making a one-off, and I
wish you luck with it.
Reamers are available in any size required, fractional, over/under, metric, letter/number and decimel.
As I said, examination of originals will settle definitively the rear cap question, so snide remarks about
blowups are inappropriate.


As I said, examination of originals will settle definitively the rear cap question, so snide remarks about blowups are inappropriate.
My remark was not meant to be "snide". It was meant to be a humourous comment on your wishing me luck,
when I'm not the one dealing with live rounds.
Sorry, I will attempt to avoid humour here in the future...

Careful guys, let's not 'blow up' over a few words on the screen. Humor is fine and tolerance of
misunderstandings is required.
Let's build this thing... :-*

The issue is, whether the rear of receiver is milled from solid, or whether a seperate piece is threaded in and
pinned in vertical. It is the threads that take the recoil if I am correct, and not the pin.
Here is a phot of a Welrod receiver Mongo posted, I believe it is a photo and not a rendering. The rear is open
and seems threaded. Mongo can verify.
I will email my US coleague who is a Class 2 and owns a MkIIa .32 and a MkI 9mm and ask him for the
answer based on examination of the hardware - the only thing that really matters.
There is no need to bandy words.

It will be interesting to see the results. I always thought the rear of the receiver was broached to cut the two
notches, after turning the groove inside it.

Post by: Dix on April 06, 2010, 10:45:17 AM
I would expect that originals would have had a one piece receiver with the lugways cut in.
Given the cartridges used, there is no reason that a rear collar could not be threaded in. This would be an
easier way of making the receiver.
Any provision for camming for primary extraction, or cartridge seating? Absence of camming would ease
production considerably, both for originals and reproductions.
How many of these were made? Were they in series production with interchangeable parts, or was each one
handfitted? The Delisles were basically a series of one-offs.
It would be a b**ch to bore that way as the hole is c.750 and the boring bar ought to be a stout one. Also the
inside face is a surface that would need back-boring (seperate tool) and the thickness is a critical dimension.
See headspace discussion abovethread.
Estimated production is WWII 2800.
BSA and subcontractors used production drawings that I am sure are toleranced. These are noe at UK MOS
Pattern Room.


Here is a phot of a Welrod receiver Mongo posted, I believe it is a photo and not a rendering. The rear is open and seems threaded. Mongo
can verify.
That's not the back end of the receiver that's open in that photo, that's the back end of the bolt handle (the
knurled part is what you turn to open the bolt). It's not threaded internally, just not smoothly finished when
the recess was bored. I will post a close-up image I have when I get home.
Also, IMO, that particular feature is the LEAST critical to include or get exactly right. I can see no functional
reason for that part to be recessed, beyond reducing the weight.
@NevadaBlue:
Yup, everything I've seen indicates a 1-piece receiver.

In the hip pocket photo, isn't that the knurled rear of the bolt assembly that is counterbored?
A lot of firearm designs have locking recesses bored, and lugways broached. It is one thing to do the
operations with dedicated tooling, another if a one-off is being made with on-hand shop tools. A shaper can
also be used to cut lugways.
If a separate receiver insert were used, machining would be simplified significantly, both for creating the
locking shoulders and for cutting the lugways. Setting headspace would also be facilitated.

Yep, it would be a b**ch to machine. I'm not a machinist and that's why I haven't started one of these. I do
think it was bored, back bored and cut by some kind of broach tool. The hole is large and would allow a
substantial boring bar, AND the work area is close to the face of the piece so the bar could be quite stiff. The
more I look at it, the easier it looks using that idea.
Cut the groove, and use a mill to rough out the notches and then file them to fit.

this picture clearly shows the detent ball AND the fact that this is one piece of metal. I'm willing to bet it was
bored and broached... look at the machine marks, who knows, maybe forged?
[attachment=1]

This image shows what I mean by the poor finish.

Since the lugs are at rear of bolt assy and are integral to thr cocking member the lugways are only half an
inch long at most and the clearance relief is just larger than the diameter across the lugs and its depth the
same as the front to back dimension of the lugs. Ahead of that the receiver IS remains .625"
Therefore it would be an unusual broach indeed that would cut those splines. A shaper could do it for sure,
or they could be roughed with an end mill and finished with a 45 degree mill-drill in a 45 degree setup su as is
used to cut sharp corners in mold making for pressing sheet metal. Milling cutters like that are
commercially available.
The limiting factor in boring the clearance is matching the max width of cutting edge of boring bar to just
pass the hole in receiver. Say arguendo that the hole is .750 and the boring bar shank is 1/2"
Starting on center, the max that can be bored before the bar hits the hole is is an ID of 1". As long as the
distance across the lugd is less than that, this will work. A cocking piece wukk serve as a gage.
I can commenr more precisely once the real and exact dimensions of the cocking member and its lugs are
known with certainty.
The inside face still needs back boring. A tool change.
An automatic boring head like a Narex would be a joy for such an operation.
I believe the photo in last post is a 9mm MkI and has nothing to do with .32 MkII/IIa.
The lugs are at vertical when unlocked and horizontal when loched, the locking is performed with a quarter
turn clockwise. Unlocking is a quarter turn anticlockwise. Since the striker spring is captive between its
guide which is pinned in the cocking member, and the striker itself, its tension precludes the bolt from
rotating on its own. In any case that pin at 11 is in the wrong place to be a detent. If it protrudes beyond front
face it may serve to prevent the bolt assy from being rotated in the wrong direction.
I am sure all can agree that inspection of actual Welrod will be final answer to this little controversy. Phoyo
interpretation has limits.

Note that the sear stands proud in the boltway of the receiver, and that there is no logitudinal groove cut in
the receiver for the cocking piece. This means that cocking piece does not extend below the bottom of the
bolt assembly, and the sear projects up into the slot cut in the bottom of the bolt assembly in which the
cocking piece travels.
In the absence of a broaching machine, or a shaper, the lugways could be started with a mill and finished by
hand as mentionned. A lathe's longitudinal carriage movement can even be used to make manual shaper-
like cuts.
When you are able to inspect an actual specimen, have a look to see if there is any provision for a camming
action in bolt opening and closing.

If the lug "keyways" are cut before the boring is finished, a bigger/longer cutter could be inserted if required.

No1 WRONG!
The boring bar is stationary (on a lathe toolpost) and the workpiece rotates. I guess you are not a machinist.
Do what you suggest and toy will tear up the work, break the tool or both.
On a vartical mill, work is fixed, boring bar is rotated off center in a boring head with micrometer adjustment.
In an auto head the offset increases per revolution to a preset stop.
Same caveat applies, the central hole is the limit and invading the splines disastrous.
Dix, rear of sear is horward of the cocking piece. Ahead of the lugs and ahead of relief cut. See attached.
Note also that according to Mongo's Solidworks and the AutoCad dwgs it is based on, the rear cap is a
seperate piece, seperatre shading. Again, hardware will be last word.
An objection to boring this out of solid not already mentioned is that chip egress will be difficult, this will
slow the process and screw up the finish. Ask any machinist.

By "cocking piece" I am referring to the portion of the striker that the sear engages. In the drawings, there is
no slot in the receiver in which this slides. It must move in its slot in the bolt, and not project downward
below the bottom of the bolt assembly. The sear must project up into this slot in the bottom of the bolt
assembly.
I am not sure that the drawing attached to your post indicates a separate rear locking collar inserted into the
receiver.

Quote from: Dix on April 06, 2010, 02:54:05 PM

I am not sure that the drawing attached to your post indicates a separate rear locking collar inserted into the receiver.
It doesn't. The line is the edge of the beveled end, the color difference is lighting... It is one piece. We will see
that when someone examines one. (http://www.prexis.com/sten/homebuilder/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)

Sorry guys for not getting in sooner to clear up some of this.
The rear projection is not a pin but is a ball with a spring (aka ball detent) that gives the user some indexing
feel when locking the action. There is a mark on the top of the gun and the top of the bolt knob that line up
as well but my guess the detent is there for feel in dark conditions and possibly to act as some resistance
from the know turning while either cocked or uncocked. You can see this clearly in section BB on the pdf file I
posted of the 32 and 9mm version of the section plans from BSA.
the barrel is 4.25" long with 1.25" shank to be pressed into the receiver.
Here is many more images I made using my model that hopefully clears up some pending questions and
heads off others.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9266/welrod13.jpg)


I moved the sear down out of the exploded view so it can now be seem.
I personally would not bother with the bolt handle "safety" shroud if I were to make one.

Thanks for the new pix Mongo! :-* We have been busily beating each other over the head with our 'opinions'.
:D

Thanks for the extra pics, Mongo.

No1 WRONG!
The boring bar is stationary (on a lathe toolpost) and the workpiece rotates. I guess you are not a machinist. Do what you suggest and toy
will tear up the work, break the tool or both.
Actually, I AM an amateur machinist (I own/use a lathe and milling machine - an example of my work is
attached), and you're misinterpreting what I said.
You originally posted that you couldn't get a full-depth (diameter) cut in because the diameter of the bar plus
the outcrop of the cutting tool wouldn't fit though the hole in the back.
What I'm suggesting is that if you cut some of the depth (diameter), you can extend the tool outcrop and use
the bolt keyway to get that tool into the free space you've already cut.
IIRC, your example was that a 1/2 inch bar could only have just under 1/8 of the tool sticking out and fit
through the hole. That's right, and if you bore that just-under 1/8 inch depth, you could extend the tool by just
under 1/8 and use the bolt keyway hole to get the tool into the cutout you made. Repeat until you reach the
required depth.

Mongo
EXCELLENT and thanks very much.
Receiver length 4.127, barrel shank intrudes 1.250, so length of bolt assy from inside face of cocking
member is 2.877, is that right?
Also, can the grip safety be omitted in favor of a trigger guard?
AFAIK all ot does is block rearward travel of trigger, when not depressed.

Are the side plate/trigger bracket screws supposed to hold the magazine housing in, or is another method
employed?
It seems that's the only part with no obvious screw or pin fixture, and I'd have thought it'd not be rigid enough
for press fit like the barrel.

Quote from: No1_sonuk on April 07, 2010, 07:51:30 AM

Are the side plate/trigger bracket screws supposed to hold the magazine housing in, or is another method employed?
It seems that's the only part with no obvious screw or pin fixture, and I'd have thought it'd not be rigid enough for press fit like the barrel.
magazine housing is silver soldered in.

Now that the length of the bolt assembly interior to the receiver has been deduced as 2.877" it remains to
clarify the length of the major diameter section of the bolt body (the forward section c.620 OD) and that of
the minor rearward section that mates with the cocking member;s ID.
Since the OD of that rear section can't be much more than 1/2" and given that there is a hole of constant
diameter through the bolt body, the next question becomes: what is the OD of the striker?
As the striker has ro slide freely, but without much axial play, in the bolt body ID let's look at the bolt body
more closely. The wall thickness of the forward section of bolt body must be sufficient to allow for the slot
and milling cuts on its bottom. Therefore I estimatr that a striker OD of 3/8" is excessive, 5/16" the max
feasible and 1/4" a good conservative number. Mongo can trll us if my guesswork is good.
A .250" ID of bolt bosy means a basic wall thickness for forward section of .188"; an ID of .312" gives wall of
.156" and an ID of .375, a wall of .125" - this last I think being inadequate.
Over to you, Mongo!

Striker is 0.373" in dia.

Thanks. Striker is .373" OD so bolt body ID is .375 and wall is .125 which is less than I would have expected.
Still, we can now reckon the depth of bolt stop slot at .062 and the striker ID as most likely .260 to .280 with
a sytikrt spring OD of c.010 less.
To completely spec that spring we need to know thw OD of striker spring guide, yje wire diameter, number of
active coils and the free length.


To completely spec that spring we need to know thw OD of striker spring guide, yje wire diameter, number of active coils and the free
length.
IMO, this will be the hardest part of the process. Without original specs, you'll not be able to get the free
length for a start, as none of the general arrangements show the unloaded spring separately. Also, I very
much doubt that the drawn length would be the actual free length. I would think that the free length would
be longer to ensure the striker remained pressed against the inside of the bolt
What I would suggest is to look at other weapons with similar-sized layouts and use/modify those
parameters.

Just what exactly is hard about taking the dimensions from an original MkII/IIa striker spring?
I already know thw free length of a MkI (9mm) striker spring, and the no. of coils. I took these off a photo of
the striker and spring laid out alongside a metric ruler. The striker spring is 52 mm long. The striker is 66 mm
long and is a different design than MkII/IIa. So these data are useless for the .32.
But springs are easy to suss out. Given the ID of striker and OD of spring guise (corresponding to mandrel
diameter) the wire diameter can be easily calculated as 1/2 the differeence, less a small amount for
clearance. Of course the w.d. can be measured from an original.
Nothimg so hard about this.


Just whay exactly is hard about taking the dimensions from an original MkII/IIa striker spring?
Nothing. If you have access to one...

There are sites devourf to spring design and the basics of spring engineering, the problems of springs in
holes, applets for design and extensive lusts of stock springs. These are worth your attention.
The striker has to have enough oomph to pop the primer. If the action is cock on closing, the spring can't be
so stiff that closing the bolt is a problem - and there is only the knurled knob, not a bolt handle, with which to
apply pressure. It isn't exactly rocket science.

I have manipulated quite a few Welrod bolts over the last 40 years ans I am here to tell you, there is no
herculean effort required to close the bolt.
Mongo, can you elaborate the dimensions of the rear of the receiver? These are:
Thickness of wall front/back

ID of hole
distance across lugways
width of lugways
Thanks in advance!


I have manipulated quite a few Welrod bolts over the last 40 years ans I am here to tell you, there is no herculean effort required to close
the bolt.
Mongo, can you elaborate the dimensions of the rear of the receiver? These are:
Thickness of wall front/back

ID of hole
distance across lugways
width of lugways
Thanks in advance!
Thickness of wall front/back 0.377"

ID of hole = 0.625"
distance across lugways = 0.875"
width of lugways = 0.312"

Thanks, Mongo!
Just ti clear any ambiguity:
Wall thickness front to back, I mean the rear wall that serves as breechblock. I think this is same as the
distance from inside face of cocking knob and rear face of lugs. .377 ?
ID of hole I refer to the hole in which lugways are cut which I think is larger than the IS of receiver as it must
pass the diameter of the radiused section between the lugs, is this not larger than .625 ?
The distance across lugways is same as distance across lugs and also the ID of the clearance cut for lugs
that is bored inside receiver. .875 ?
The width of lugways is same as the height of the individual lugs. .312 ?
What is the length (front to back) of the lugs?


Thanks, Mongo!
Just ti clear any ambiguity:
Wall thickness front to back, I mean the rear wall that serves as breechblock. I think this is same as the distance from inside face of
cocking knob and rear face of lugs. .377 ? yes
ID of hole I refer to the hole in which lugways are cut which I think is larger than the IS of receiver as it must pass the diameter of the
radiused section between the lugs, is this not larger than .625 ? no same diameter all the way through
The distance across lugways is same as distance across lugs and also the ID of the clearance cut for lugs that is bored inside receiver.
.875 ? yes
The width of lugways is same as the height of the individual lugs. .312 ? yes
What is the length (front to back) of the lugs? 0.375"

Great, thanks!

This bit doesn't add up for me:

Quote from: Mongo on April 11, 2010, 10:31:12 PM
The distance across lugways is same as distance across lugs and also the ID of the clearance cut for lugs that is bored inside receiver.
.875 ? yes
The width of lugways is same as the height of the individual lugs. .312 ? yes
I don't understand where you got the lug height of 0.312.
I think of "lug height" as the height of the lug surface wrt the surface of the reduced part of the bolt handle
In which case:
If the distance across the lugways is 0.875, and the hole is 0.625, shouldn't the individual lug height be half
the difference?
i.e (0.875 - 0.625) / 2 = 0.125
And "lug width" would be 0.312 minus a bit for clearance.

You are just assigning different names to dimrnsions.
I am installing Acad so I will shortly be able to post dimensioned 2D views which will eliminate confusion. Ot
has been 15 years since I worked with AutoCAD so I will need 1-2 days to get back in the saddle, so to speak.
Mongo, what is the OAL of cocking knob, and the depth and ID of the counterbore of its rear face?
The ID of the cocking piece ought to be c. same as the OD of the reduced rear section of bolt body, looks like
c/00" (halfway between OD and ID of bolt bosy).
The exact length pf that red. rear section?
Thanks in advance!
Something I've not been able to find yet, and which would be especially important for anyone who has
compatibility with original parts in mind:
Are the 3 suppressor threads (tube/receiver, barrel/bearing, and tube/nose cap) left-hand ones?
All the instructions for suppressor disassembly I've seen say just "Unscrew the nose cap", without specifying
a direction.
The rifling shown in the diagrams implies right-handed rifling, meaning left-handed threads would be the
norm for "bullet-interacting" accessories like a suppressor.
This is so that any bullet effect tightens, rather than loosens the thread.
Then there's the thread form. Being British, and of that time, it's possible it'd be a 55 degree Whitworth form,
rather than the current 60 degree norm.
Actually producing the threads of either form isn't a problem, it's just a matter of determining what they
should be. Lacking original drawings showing those details, and if compatibility with original parts is
required, the size, pitch, form, and direction would need to be determined from an original.
For my project, I will be using a fine-pitch (possibly 1mm) 60 degree metric thread, the size of which I'll
decide when my suppressor tube material arrives.

This is just my opinion but I believe Whitworth and/or LH threads to be highly unlikely on this weapon.
Standard RH UN 60 deg are more likely and most likely 24 tpi which is near enough to your 1mm *25.4 tpi) as
to likely be interoperable for a short thread length like yhis. Mongo can likely tell the major diameter of the
receiver thread which will deped on the mating part, but in my experience a .063" wall tube of 1.25" OD will
take a 1-3/16"-24 thread nicely. Slight boring is recommended to reach the correct ID for tapping or single
point chasing. Same thread is suitable for front cap - assuming my guesses are accurate.
Here is first 2D CAD model of rear view of receiver of MkII .32 with the OD and the ID. I have not yet added
the spline dimensions which are 0.875" and .3125".
DRAWING REVISED AND RELOCARED TO NEXT PAGE

Considering that the bullet has to force its way through rubber discs which are (as part of the ring/plate
setup) pressed against the nose cap, LH thread is more than likely, and used on just about all add-on
suppressors, flash hiders, etc.
WRT Whitworth: This page (and everything I know from living in Britain) says "Most, if not all, British cars,
motorcycles, airplanes and machinery up the 1970s – and possibly beyond – used Whitworth thread forms.":
http://www.enginehistory.org/british_fasteners.htm (http://www.enginehistory.org/british_fasteners.htm)
BSA were also a motorcycle manufacturer...

How many suppressors have you ever made?
I used to do it professionally for 30 years. There's a Truby book with my photo on the cover. So believe me,
what you say above is perfectly true but totally meaningless.
Steel seamless tubing I have used for this purpose comes in walls of .049, 058, 063 etc. Any of these is
suitable and moew than strong enough. The amount of boring is slight, and after threading there is still >
1/32" wall uncut below thread root.

I have no time to waste bandying words with you. From yjis point I will ignore your pointless argumentative
and ill informed posts.

the two of you can quit bickering or I'll lock the thread. this is an interesting gun, and we are getting lots of
help in understanding how it works. bickering is not what we need. If you don't agree, tough. >:(


Meanwhile here is a front view of cocking know in 2D CAD
Is that 1.25" Dia the knurled part?
On some photos, and Mongo's model images, it looks bigger than the receiver dia.

Post by: sdk1968 on April 13, 2010, 10:15:39 AM
well handled by NevadaBlue and totally agree with him on this ....
to that affect I removed the nitpicking post up there from No1_sonuk and the response to it from sauron...
this is Saurons thread and he can build it how he wants it.

thanks for the drawings sauron, looking forward to seeing this come to life! :-*

De nada. I hope Mongo continues to support with dimensions. I will generate .dwg, .dxf and pdf files for
every view as the dimensions become known.
Eventually I will have MkI 9mm as well, rather fifferent internally.
REVISED AND MOVED TO PAGE 10

Commented
http://img63.imageshack.us/i/cockingknobfrontviewcom.pdf/
(http://img63.imageshack.us/i/cockingknobfrontviewcom.pdf/)

Thanks Mongo. The knurling operation on OD of cocking knob will raise the OD to 1.35. The other
adjustments are for fit and clearance, obviously. By REM I guess to take that as REAM, as opposed to
REMARK.
Here is a side section of fully turned receiver Mk OOA without any of the milling operations that will await
top, bottom and side views.
The location od threaded surfacw and taper are guesswork The real details would be welcome.
DRAWINGS ON PAGE 8
Thanks as always!

Here are revised CAD drawings of receiver rear view and cocking knob front view both with linera
domensions added now that I relearned how to do that.
Mongo may advise further small (like .001") dimensional changes to ensure proper sliding fits. As the
dimensions are interactive with the drawing, sometimes these tweaks are easy and sometimes not.
DRAWINGS REISED AND POSTED FOWN PAGE

I think you may have attached the same cocking knob drawing as before - the one attached doesn't have
Mongo's updates on it, and no "REV" annotation like the receiver one does.
*EDIT : Fixed - See Sauron's post below*

Sorry for any confusion, I have deleted the earlier versions of the three views, and am attaching rge latest
and best incorporating Mongo's adjusted dimensions, whoch are for working fit of mating parts.
I am presently working on the bolt assembly drawings.
My Adobe PDF utility has quit working with AutoCAD so I have to solve this, meanwjile here is he dwg file.
Light bulb srERA TO GLOW...
AT FIRST i THOUGHT THE ENTIRE BOL ASSY ROTATED TO LOCK but this cannot bw bwcause sear is in bolt
slot and bolt stop slot has no 90 degree radial relief at rear.
Well ONLY the cocking knob rotates as the required quarter turn relief. The bolt body and FP spring guide
share the same pin but they and pin are stationary.
Mystery solved.
Mongo, please tell us:
OAL of bolt body (w/out cocking knob)
width of slot through bottom of same? I guess .125 with sear abd striker projections 2-3 thousamdths less.
L, W and depth of bolt stop slot in same, and location of hole center for bolt stop screw
Thanks
I have a workaround for plotting to PDF
So here is a partially done bolt face
Dimensions of bottom rails are guesses. Mongo pls correct.
,358 is .32 ACP rim so I made bolt face .360
The rails strip cartridge from magazine .400 might be too much as might .250 be for slot width. Mongo pls
correct.
.32 ACP rim is same as .380 ACP so making a .380 MkII ought to be easy. MAC used to load 130 gr FMJs in
the .380 for M11, beats hell out of a .32 any day.

The workaround for plotting to PDF required sunce Adobe went kludgy is:
Select objects to plot
Copy to Clipboard
Open Acrobat (I usr Professional CS3) and select Create PDF from Clipboard Image
Image is white on black and better than the inverted plot rgat the Adobe PDF printer driver produced'
I am attaching view of striker spring guide and striker (firing pin) with a few unsettled dimensions left out.
The most critical is FP protrusion from the (counterbored) bolt face and I do not know the depth so cannot
estimate protrusion to allow.

Comments on striker spring parameters
As drawn the assy allows for spring OD of .300 over guide .189 and so wire diameters in range of .060" on
down.
I have verified that springs in this range are off the shelf in the likely lenths and wire diameters. I have the OD
and OAL of the MkI 9mm FP spring and the MkII is likely similar.
The aprings are $ each in qty 10 and $1 ea in qty 100.

Excellent progress. I suspect that there will be more people interested in this when all the hard work is done.
This is a rather complex gun for a home build, to some people that is. But, when the drawings are complete, I
bet that it will be less 'complex' to some folks.


Mongo, please tell us:
OAL of bolt body (w/out cocking knob) 3.53
width of slot through bottom of same? I guess .125 with sear abd striker projections 2-3 thousamdths less. 0.125
L, W and depth of bolt stop slot in same, and location of hole center for bolt stop screw 0.1875 dia cutter X 0.10 deep X 1.44 long - bolt
retaining screw 1.5" for rear of receiver
Thanks
I have a workaround for plotting to PDF
So here is a partially done bolt face
Dimensions of bottom rails are guesses. Mongo pls correct.
,358 is .32 ACP rim so I made bolt face .360 0.259
The rails strip cartridge from magazine .400 might be too much as might .250 be for slot width. Mongo pls correct. 0.281
.32 ACP rim is same as .380 ACP so making a .380 MkII ought to be easy. MAC used to load 130 gr FMJs in the .380 for M11, beats hell
out of a .32 any day.

Thanks Mongo!
I am confused about bolt body lenth.
You said receiver OAL is 4.127 and barrel shank intrudes 1'25" so I concluded that length of bolt assy ahead
of insie face of cocking knob is 2.877"
The only additional length of bolt body is overlap with wall of cocking knob which is maybe .125" so OAL bolt
bosy is c,3.002 so how do we reconcile with 3.53"?

Here is redraw of bolt assy with bolt body oal 3.530 and bolt intrusion into receiver of 4.050.
The bolt stop slot has been added with first fole center at 1.500 from rear of receiver and center to center
length 1.440, width .188" and depth .100".
The bolt therefire can only open 1.44"
The bolt intrusion 3.4050 into a 4.127 oal receiver means that either the barrel shank intrusion is no more
than 0.722 rather than 1.250. Or receiver length may be actually 4.6550 (i.e., 3.4050 + 1.250) rather than
4.127 as previously stated.
Mongo, I'd sure like to knoe ehich so I can redraw receiver if required.
I'd like to get the small details of bolt assy and bolt face clarified so we can wrap yjsy group up and go back
and finish the receiver group, before concluding with the trigger and mag housing groups'
Bolt face and rails - see below
Extractor - see below
Striker protrusion
Here is a detail view from BSA (attached) and my latest bolt face drawing.
We know .32 ACP semirim is .358 so I set ID of bolt face c;bore at .360, Mongo corrects to .359 ( I can only
assume .259 was a typo) and he advised the widdth of the two vertical rails as .281.
What is depth of c'bore?
The central slot is a continuation of the .125 sear/striker slot and has to be deep enough to pass the ejector,
sp what is the vertical dimension? Clearly it must intrude into the c'bore in order to euject spent case.
The side rails ride along the top of the magazine housing, so what are their X and Y dimensions?
What is the X,Y from receiver rear to hole center for extractor pin? Yje dimensions of plunger and the ID and
depth of plunger hole (lengthwise in bolt wall?) Dimensions of extractor slots?
I will make a stb at extractor drawing.
Finally what is the length of the bottom rails (full form) and the radius of their exit cut?
Thanks in advance

I will reply a slightly different way since your question don't seem to add up to me for some reason. Here is a
section with some of the dimensions pulled for you.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4433/welrod1.pdf
(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4433/welrod1.pdf)

That drawing ehich includes the "americann" grip safety block, certainly settles tje issue of receiver OAL at
4.594"
The data are:
Cocking knob .386

breech .377
lug well .752 -.762
Bottom of striker hole/rear solid bolt body 2.833

bolt face bottom of c'bore 3.286
front extractor 3.394
Rear of barrel 3.394

Start of supp threads 3.594
Front of taper/receiver 4.594
All relative to rear of receiver as 0 point.
My assumption that bolt and barrek kiss is wrong.
The depth of bolt face counterbore is not given and is needed to calculate bolt body length and intrusion.
Bolt body OAL is .125 + 3.285 + c'bore depth
Barrel intrusion is 1.200 not 1.250
Thanks Mongo.
Incidentally the magazine housing is not silver soldered in place. It is held by the 4 trigger bracket scres. One
of my colleagues had no difficuty in removing and replacing his mag housing. No press fit either.
Here is redrawn receiver.


Incidentally the magazine housing is not silver soldered in place. It is held by the 4 trigger bracket scres. One of my colleagues had no
difficuty in removing and replacing his mag housing. No press fit either.
I'm guessing it may have been silver soldered or press fit in the MkIIs which didn't have trigger brackets.

Possibly so but those early versions are rare. I have never seen one other than in photos whereas ever .32
Welros I hase seen had brackets. Anyway this is simpler.
Mongo, thanks for the answers, and I have edited out the questions they addressed. Other questions in that
post need answering too. Can you assist?

Post by: Mongo on April 20, 2010, 08:01:49 AM
I can only go buy the drawings I were given. There is no screw protrusion into the magazine housing from the
trigger bars so I assumed it must be retained by silver solder.
I was using the original drawings for giving your dimensions since they are quicker to open than the
Solidworks model. I'm thinking that might be one of the dimensions I had to correct to get the model to work
correctly but I can no remember since I built the model from the drawings a while back and have since done
many other projects. The gun would not work if made to the drawings I was given, even the magazine well to
receiver fit was not correct. Until one is made from my model we can only assume that it will work given my
minor corrections. The 3D modeling software makes the parts interaction checking task much simpler than
2D systems.
The barrel is definitely press fit given the dimensions on the drawings, as to all models and makes, I have no
idea. Even in the section drawings I see differences in each one that they seem change willy nilly. Given the
guns were not expected to be production general issue items, I am sure they did not really care about parts
compatibility as much as with other weapon systems.

Quote from: Mongo on April 20, 2010, 08:01:49 AM
I can only go buy the drawings I were given. There is no screw protrusion into the magazine housing from the trigger bars so I assumed it
must be retained by silver solder.
The main reason I asked in the first place was that at least one of the images of your model showed the
bracket screw holes going into the mag housing opening, and in a place where they could hold the housing.
The only issue I have with the "screwed-in" idea is that the hollow housing would need to be quite rigid to
take the pressure of the screws holding it in. Unless the screws go into recesses in the realtively thin walls
of the housing, with no mag in there's nothing to stop the walls collapsing and the housing falling out,
particularly over time.
Sauron, you said:

Quote
One of my colleagues had no difficuty in removing and replacing his mag housing. No press fit either.
Are there any photos of the housing out of the receiver? Seeing if there are screw marks or strengthening
would go some way to solving this mystery.

It's no mystery. My friend owns two Welros, and he fully disassembled hus MkIIA to measure for blueprints
which I will have hires scans of asap. He is a Class 2 and I have known hin nore than 30 years. So if he says
no silver solder and ready removal when screws aew backed out, you can believe it.
Mongo, I advise you yo verufy dinebsuibs agaubst rge real thing, as you sat wgar tou were given under
AutoCAD needed revision just to pass SW's ubterference checks. That has little to do with the real worlf.
Rather than spin my wheels further based on pie in the sky dimensions I will suspend drafting till the scans
showww up and then I will digitize those in both 2D abd 3D.

Thanks for all the work sauron! :-* and of course Mongo and all... :'(

Just what is the wall thickness of the mag housing and for that matter is it a milled past or is it folded sheet
steel weldment? I guess the former. Jut wgar are the K and W anyway?
I'd say it has at least 1/16" (.063") or more and that is not bubble gum. It's mild steel and could be 4130 or
4140 alloy.
-------------------
Guys this is rudimentary if overengineered, bolt action. You can count the moving parts on one hand.
Cocking handle rotates.
Bolt slides in and out.
Trigger is pulled.
Sear depresses.
Striker flies forward.
As long as routing clearances are provided for those 5 simple movements I do not see what would go wrong.
This is arithmetic not tensor calculus.

The mag well is sheet metal and not a machined item. I guess it could be held in by clamping with the
screws but I assumed that those would deflect the housing inward and is not a good design since they
should be snugged down to retain the trigger bar plates. There is not much friction generated by the screw
ends on the sheet metal and the risk of the mag well being pulled out with the mag is not remote. When the
mag well comes out the trigger return spring/plunger also would be released and shoot off. Seems like a
dumb design for something that never needs to be removed. The drawings I had also showed no dimpling
either.

A simple modifification would solve.
Using a simple jig drill 4 holes through the sides of housing in exact locations required to locate the housing
in mag well. The holes are smaller than the screw dia, and rge screws are replaced with slightly longer ones
which are turned down similar to bolt stop screw.Easy, cheap, no pressure on hoysung walls and no way
housing will fall out.
One og thr big Army labs once ran a computerizwd kinematic study on the Madsen LMG. This was serious
mathematical modeling of the mechism, energies, velocities of parts, cyclic rate and time-displacement and
pressure-time curves. LOTS of calculus and a big IBM mainframe.
The program said the Madsen would not, COULD not work. We all has a good laugh because the Madsen
works and well! So much for software.

Well in the engineering world we have a saying: No matter how good the software is, crap in = crap out this is
usually followed up with : A good program and a smart data entry monkey does not yield a competent engineer.
I see it every day and as senior engineer and department head, there is not very many competent engineers
that even know how to approach a problem much less solve it. Plenty of people in this world can read a book
and regurgitate it for good grades but there are very few that have common sense, good deductive reasoning
skills, and logical problem solving skills. When I review a resume, school grades are not much of a
consideration to me, its work history and the number of job changes they have made. There are plenty of
people that claim 20 years of experience but have had 20 different jobs. These are the ones that have 1 year
twenty times and are just as skilled as a 1 yr nub. All of the above makes me seriously question flying since I
wonder how competent the engineers that designed the plane.
As to your solution, I can think of several methods on how to solve the problem, I was only commenting on
what the original drawings appeared to be indicating.
Personally I would redesign much of the pistol but would it then be a "Welrod" or a Mongorod?
I am not new to the gun industry, I have one gun design that has sold over 300,000 copies across Europe and
the US yet I was screwed out of my Royalties on it. I call it my 4 million dollar lesson on patents. I also have
designed many components being used in current military and civilian weapon systems.
Basically I'm saying I'm not a cub when it comes to arms design (though I'm not a John Browning, Eugene
Stoner or many numerous others past and present).

The trouble with patents is that they are only as good as your ability to defend them. I took out patents un
UK, Italy, Germany, Ausytia and Belgiom' corresponding to my US patent. Steyr's house lawyer filed a
challenge; we prevailed but they were just testing the depth of my pocket.
Then my partner threw all the Euro patents away by deciding he cou;dn' afford the maintenance fees. Oh
well.
Gene was a good friend' I last saw him in 93 at Reed's place in Vero when he gave his blessing to my "Stoner
93" project here in Thailand. By then he kmew the tumor on his face would get him.

Bolt stop screw
This is a standard macgine screw for countersunk installation, the logical size is 1/4"-28 for which tap drill is
#1 and combo drill/c'sink is available.
Buy the screw by the box in a 1" length, hold rgus ub a 5C stop collet (screw head out) and turn a .200 wide
section to .186 OD and cut off at OAL .412 inclusing cap. You want .100 turned section to remailn.
Control c'sink depth with a drill stop.
A pump jig would simplify getting the hole on dead center.

When I've turned down the end of screws like that before, I put one or more nuts on it so it can be held in the
lathe chuck, or make a thick threaded disc if the head is bigger than the nut.
Assuming the screw has a normal right-hand thread, run the spindle "backwards", i.e clockwise, then turn
from the back, rather than the front.
Running the lathe that way makes sure the screw doesn't undo itself in the nut(s).

If you chuck the screw by what will be the waste then you can run th spindle normally and turn from front.
Here is a detail top view of receiver taken from a hi-res scan of BSA master assy print MkIIA.
It is to scale and we have two reference points (from Mongo) and that is start of threads and supp. tube ar
3,594 from rear of receiver, and hole center of bolt stop screw at 1.50 from same zero reference.
Therefore the section between is c. 2.094 long and uncludes:
Milling cut (slot) c.1" L x 0.5 W through wall
Milled flat
Front and rear milled scallops of complex ellipsoid shape
The closed bolt is visible and the extractor pin hole center may be a useful reference line.


If you chuck the screw by what will be the waste then you can run th spindle normally and turn from front.
Good point. My suggestion works if there's not enough waste to grip, or if the screw is already the right
length, such as for cleaning up the parted off end after forming the way you suggest.

Milled flat
Front and rear milled scallops of complex ellipsoid shape

I have seen photos of MKIIs with flat "scallops". i.e. all 3 cuts are flat.
The BSA cutaway drawing also shows this.
I don't currently have access to my collection of photos to dig out examples.
The curves could be a feature of the version Mongo has modelled that has the safety collar on the bolt
handle.

By flat I mean "not curved"
The profile must be milled by simultaneously moving in X axis wjile eithdrawing up in Z axis (lowering the
table).,
The BSA print is labelled MkIIA and does not contain the American "safety".

I'm guessing BSA would have done what I will:

Mount the receiver level and mill straight across to form the bottom of the scallop.
Mount the receiver at an angle, barrel end up, and mill straight across to form the back of the scallop.
Mount the receiver at an angle, barrel end down, and mill straight across to form the bottom of the scallop.
Rotating the milling head would work too, but re-tramming is a PITA, so shifting the workpiece is preferable
for me.
That's far simpler than moving 2 axes at once, particularly if you don't have CNC.
I suspect the curved scallop would have been done with a curved cutter, rather than a straight one.
Also, it's likely these were originally made on horizontal milling machines, rather than the now more common
vertical. In which case, a form cutter could have easily been used.
Am I right that the US ones didn't go beyond prototypes? The documents posted earlier imply the US service
(OSS?) decided it would be pointless "re-inventing the wheel", and that buying British Welrods would be the
best option.
On an "ease of machining" note: Milling the top parts such as the sight dovetail, ejection port and flat-
bottomed scallop before any other milling work on the receiver would allow the scallop flat bottom to be
used as a good reference surface for all the other milling operations.

BSA didn't have CNC in the 40s and my remarks pertain only to understanding the original steps.
The central top flat can be cut with an end mill in a vertical mill or a straight arbor mounted cutter in Y axis,
that is, the work is in X axis and so is arbor, cutter is moved in Y axis.
The other cuts are trickier. But we seem to be talking past each other so let's move on. Just in passing,
milling the trigger platform, much longer than the ejection port flst, as first milling operation seems
preferable as that will be stabler for clamping.
The BSA master print names and gives drawing numbers for two additional magazines for MkIIA, Webley &
Scott and BSA. Other numbers are referenced for "Magazibe complete" presumably the Colt Pocket Model. I
would expect the W&S and BSA mags were prototyped only. This is first mention of them I have ever seen.


Just in passing, milling the trigger platform, much longer than the ejection port flst, as first milling operation seems preferable as that will
be stabler for clamping.
My reasoning was that the ejection port is simpler, so it doesn't need the clamping to be more stable.
However, machining the complicated underside would benefit from the receiver being clamped with a flat,
rather than round, surface under it.

Post by: SEEKER69 on April 22, 2010, 02:03:01 AM
I have always found this little hush puppy a fascinating gun. I seem to rember a book on OSS/ OSE guns
of World War ll that had some info on this gun. I think that Paladin Press put it out. I can't find it on the web.
May be on the U.S. Library of Congress site.

H.Keith Melton did a book on OSS equipment, not firearms specifically. And not SOE.
It is confuding to refer to trhe Welrod as a "hudh puppy" as if this were a generic term for silenced pistols. It
is not. The Hush Puppes were and are a series of 9mm s/a pidtols starting in late 60s with S&W and later in
80s through present with Beretta M9 as modified by Knight. These had and have slide locks and use heavy
ball subsonic ammunition.
The silencers are typically 5 to 6 inches long x 1.5 diameter and are are much improved "wipe" designs with
better performance and longer life than Welrod wipes. A Welrod's silencer needs wipres replaced after 5
shots; a Knight, 10-20 shots. With all such wipe systems, accuracy suffers greatly, the Welrod being rates as
good for 6 meters (20 ft) max and the Hush Puppy little better. Bear in mind that the Welrod was really
intended for point blank or contact sentry takedowns and the mission of the Hush Puppys is not so different,
this is not a huge problem.
Most of these are now used as air crew survival weapons by all three services of USA.
Apart from aforementioned short life and accuracy degredation, wipes are also incompatible eith expanding
projectiles or prefragmented projectiles - anything but FMJ.
We have known for a long time how to make devices that are as quiet or quieter objectively, do not screw up
accuracy, are long life, and compatible with all ammunition. A wipe can with new wioes still has a subjective
edge however.
The fact that this is offset by the very substantial noise produced when a projectile impacts its target (inert
or sentient) seems lost on many users.

Hmmm... I always thought that hush puppies had corn meal in them and were fried... ???
You REALLY do not want to eat the sort of Hush Puppy I am referring to.
The older ammo was Mk144 Mod 0 (per USN) made by Super Vel and was 148 gr while the Knight loads
were/are (AFAIK) 170 gr. In both cases 975 fps.
The latter projectile is a Sierra .357 resized to .354 and seated over 5.4 gr Blue Dot which is a rather warm
load. The Sierra is a very heavily jacketed FMJ RN originally designed for metallic silhouette work. This was
the Knight load of the 80s. I assumr that as the services started buying the Knight silenced Berettas with
slide locks by the tens of thousands, a factory load must have been introduced but I have no details.
Certainly if anything like the Knight load they would be +P or +P+. Forget SAAMI specs.

thanks sauron! that's what I like about this place, there is always something to learn from someone who is
willing to share. :-*

Post by: mudpuppy on April 27, 2010, 05:05:52 PM
For those interested in some history on the Welrod the Timelapse site is back up
www.timelapse.dk/welrod.php (http://)

I now have in hand a reliable set of machinist's drawings for Welrod MkIIA .32.
I personally know the NFA Class 2 manuf whose Welrod was fully disaasembled and the parts measured by
a master gunsmith in his employ who also did the drafting.
I will convert these to AutoCAD 2010 the hard way, redrawing them into 2D and 3D CAD files.
Afew observations:
The receiver thread is 1-3/16"-32 tpi and no statement is made as to NSW 55 deg vs UNEF 60 deg but I think
it would take an optical comparator to spot the difference in a 1/2" thread length. Usual 3 wire pitch
diameter method is iffy as two different formulae would be invoked.
The nominal OD would be 1.187 but the acual OD is 1.177
The suppressor tube has a wall of .055" The front cap has same thread as receiver.

:-*

Post by: sauron on May 01, 2010, 09:00:53 AM
Here is the first drawing from actual MkIIA measurements. Rear receiver view as usual. One dimension very
different than the one previously reported.
I was right about the bolt stop screw, ot is 1/4-28 with tip turned down to .125" and not .187 as reported
before.
The trigger bracket screws are 6-48
Only a few parts are heat treated and rather mildly.
More shortly

Here are two left side receiver views, which are same except for which dimensions are shown on each.
The depth of top scallop is .250. The oal of scallop is 2,167 consisting of the middle flat .700 and the L amd
R angled cuts '7335 each.
I have not yet drawn in the rear sight flat and dovetail because I am dubious about the need for any sihjy on
this weapon.
The OAL of receiver is 4,587 and the forward .950 of that are .360 front taper and .590 treads including .090
clearance cut at rear.
The trigger platform starts exactly 1 inch from receiver rear and is .125 deep, it terminates right where the
suppressor tube screws up to.

Post by: sauron on May 02, 2010, 03:19:41 PM
Three more detail viws, from left, first is the blind slot for sear spring which is .250 wide, .275 deep and
starts at .810 from receiver rear and has a total length of .710 (therefore it ends at 1.520 from receiver rear)
The hole center for sear spring pin is located at 1.000 from receiver rear and .210 from receiver bottom. It is
not drawn in yet.
The smaller through slot is the sear slot and is .125 wide, starts at 1.250 from receiver rear anss is .762 long.
It overlaps the sear spring slot and the magazine housing well.
The magazine housing well starts at 2.012 from receiver rear and has a length of 1.25 and a width of .545
with a 90 degree rear and radius front .2725.
The layout will be clearer when I post the bottom view(s).

Here is the view qith the addition of rge bolt stop screw hole and countersink, the sear and sear spring pin
holes, the latter with its relief spotface, and rge reigger bracket flat and its two drilled and tapped holes.
The bolt stop screw hole center is at 1.500 from receiver rear and is trilled with a #1 drill and tapped for
1/4"-28 oval head countersunk screw and the hole well countersunk.
The pin holes are ar 1.00 and 1.918 from receiver rear (sear spring pin and sear pin respectively) and at .210
and 2125 from receiver bottom ( or more conveniently .085 and.0875 from trigger platform in the trigger
platform flat.} The sear pin hole is .052 diameter
The lateral location f the trigger bracket cut is given. Te height is .351 from truffer platform. The screw holes
are on ,950 centers and are drilled with a #31 drill (.120) and tapped 6-48. The first hole is at 2.168 from
receiver rear, secomd at 3.118 and both are at heihjy .1875 above trigger platform.
Here is inprogress receiver bottom view which I will update as soon as I draw in the pin holees, screw holes
atc.
The slot at left is for sear spring and is .250 wide and .275 deep, .710 edge to edge.
The middle slot is for sear, it is .125 wide and .762 long.
The large slot is well for magazine housing, .545 wide and 1.250 long.

Post by: NevadaBlue on May 04, 2010, 11:10:04 AM
Looking good. So, the .32 version is your first project to build?

The .32 is what I have blueprints for. I suspect that this can be uped to .380 with little chance other than
barrel.
The MkI is too big. Eventually I'd like to retrofit to 9x19 (Sionics did this already).

Post by: NevadaBlue on May 04, 2010, 12:24:28 PM
Yes, that's my goal too. :-*

My associate in USA has discovered that the late John Minnery sent him a set of original BSA Welrod
receiver prints - full size and now starting to deteriorate. He is working to get these digitized and hard copies.
This means we possess the ultimate resource for vetting the drawings I am now working from, which are
based on measurements from a MkIIa.
He has had these for years and simply forgot.

Post by: No1_sonuk on May 05, 2010, 07:47:14 AM
Thanks for your efforts so far, Sauron.
Did I miss the height of the trigger plate cutouts on one of the drawings? i.e the height from the receiver
bottom or trigger flat.
Also, I know it's a bit out of sequence, but could you tell me the overall length of the suppressor tube from
your measured information?
No1son_uk
The trigger platform flat is .125" from receiver bottom, and runs from 1.000 from receiver rear (milled square
across) all the way to the suppressor tube interface at 3.637 (start of thread relief). Therefore it is 2.637
long
Yes you must have overlooked it, it is on at least one view.
The receiver behind this flast is untouched except for the sear spring pocket starting at .810,250 wide and
.275 deep. It is a blind slot and forward of the shoulder is .150 deep relative to th flat. It terminates at 1.520.
Edge to edge .710. It is worth noring that the forward shoulder of the locking lug bore is at .761 from
receiver rear so this slot starts only .049 forward of that.
The suppressor tube is by measurement 7.687" w/out cap. The thread is 1-3/16" x 32 tpi a little finer than I
prefer but not so bad. Taps are available. The tube is .055 wall, these days .058 is more common. Male
thread OD is 1.177 or .010 under nominal while femake thread measures 1.140.
Here is a section view of receiver borrom between 2.012 and 2.9895 - the magazine well behind the radius.
The dimension that falls out of the CAD is the thickness of the threaded section which along with thw trigger
bracket thickness tells us the length of screw under head needed for the 6-48 screws.

Post by: No1_sonuk on May 05, 2010, 12:37:21 PM
Quote from: sauron on May 05, 2010, 09:38:57 AM

No1son_uk
The trigger platform flat is .125" from receiver bottom, and runs from 1.000 from receiver rear (milled square across) all the way to the
suppressor tube interface at 3.637 (start of thread relief). Therefore it is 2.637 long
That's not the part I meant. I meant the height of the cutouts in the sides that the trigger plates screw onto.
I think that's the 0.351 dimension in the latest section drawing.

The suppressor tube is by measurement 7.687" w/out cap. The thread is 1-3/16" x 32 tpi a little finer than I prefer but not so bad. Taps are
available. The tube is .055 wall, these days .058 is more common. Male thread OD is 1.177 or .010 under nominal while femake thread
measures 1.140.
Thanks. The aluminium tube I have has 10 swg (3.2mm) wall thickness - I don't need a "solid" suppressor, so
the extra thickness will provide rigidity, as well as plenty of thickness for a decent thread.

Aluminum on steel for threads galls. Bad idea.
.52 is indeed the height of the milling cut for brackets, measurwd from platform flat. From ewceiver bottom it
is .476. The cuts are .193 deep. I used a .100 radius for the top coenwe fillets. This is a guess but as long as
rge brackets aew cut the same who cares?
When I get a look at the original BSA prints I can correct this as the gunsmith in USA did not note any radius.

Quote from: sauron on May 05, 2010, 02:40:36 PM

Aluminum on steel for threads galls. Bad idea.
Mine's not a firearm, so I'll be using aluminium for the receiver and muzzle cap too.

I used a .100 radius for the top coenwe fillets. This is a guess but as long as rge brackets aew cut the same who cares?
When I get a look at the original BSA prints I can correct this as the gunsmith in USA did not note any radius.
I'm not sure it matters - I think that's one of the non-critical dimensions. The attached pic shows the
brackets don't fill the cutout.
And something else from that pic: It might just be the angle, but it looks like the counterbore for the sear
spring pin hole isn't concentric with the hole.
Think about it this way:
If the counterbore was concentric, the edges of the larger hole would close around the pin hole at the
bottom, but it doesn't. It looks like the counterbore's centre is shifted down at least as far as the bottom edge
where its flat meets the curve.

Post by: Dix on May 05, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
The pin at the bottom rear, just behind the trigger mechanism?
Its not really a counterbore, it looks to be a cut with an endmill to make a flat for ease in drilling the hole.

I think the cut you refer to is done on the receiver exterior in order to provide a flat surface for accurate
center drill location and us made with an end mill. As it is done prior to drilling it can't br a counterbore.
Anyway that cut overhangs the .125 flat which shares same location at 1.000.
The drilling will have been done in a jig.

I called it a counterbore because that's what it resembles, and is easier to type repeatedly as I needed.
Would "spot face" have attracted less criticism?

In a word:yes.
Anyway here is master receiver drawing c.99% finished. Bottom, top and left side views plus rear view and a
section. I may add another section.
Drafting is easy, dimensioning is hard. All of the dinebsional data is encoded in the drawing, but displaying it
all on one "sheet" without confusion is an art and sometimes is not practicall.
I have to consider how best to do this.

The "spot face" is still shown as concentric with the sear spring pin hole.
WRT dimensioning: Would putting on the major dimensions, and a note that the measure tool can be used
for the rest, work?
I can't use that here at work (locked down OS and older Acrobat), but I'm sure I've seent that on other PDFs at
home.
Alternatively, the .dxf you posted earlier had readable dimension data in the reader I downloaded from
Autodesk.

Obviously major dimensions are a priority but deciding which they are is not always simple. Having multiple
views helps. Any minor dimensions that can't be put in wiyjout making the drawing too busy can be relegated
to a subsidiary drawing as detail.
All of my drawings posted prior to May 1 are based on info from Mongo, and sadly much of that proves to be
erroneous. I will delete those and all of my drawings posted with good data are dated 050110 and later in
filename.
Yes I can make dwg and dxf files available but not everyone has CAD or knows how to use it.

CAD software not needed.

DWG TrueView from Autocad is a free standalone viewer.
http://download.cnet.com/DWG-TrueView/3000-6677_4-10690117.html (http://download.cnet.com/DWG-
TrueView/3000-6677_4-10690117.html)

And it works quite well! :-*

OK I will post the master receiver dwg when it is complete
Meanwhile I will post pdfs with major dimensions and details with more complete dimensions of specific
areas.This is easy using LAYER to hide dimensions till needed (some or all).
I am awaiting BSA data on ejection slot location, length and width. Also scallop width. All the other scallop
details I have now. That and the rear detent hole will finalize the drawing.
I may add some hatching, add some callouts and so on.
And I' better draw in the breech area.

Cool. The PDFs are probably the most user friendly and a lot more people can use them. :-*
Here is a more finidhed draft master receiver drawing.
I had been struggling with the scallop. I had its start and end points and the borders left and right of the flat
in the middle. I did not have the width.
Finally I realized that if I simply drew a 1.250 diameter circle and sliced it with a line at .250 in, the distance
across the intersecting points would be width of the flat. The answer is exactly 1.0000 inch.
Using ELLIPSE I constructed the thing starting at 1.340, ending at 3.507 and bisected it wirh vertical lines at
2.0735 and 2.7735 to frame the flat. Then I trimmed the center section of the ellipse and connected the arc
end with horizontal lines. The closest U could get to 1.0000 width was .950 because of snap but that is close
enough. Actually I could efit the endpoints of the arcs and get better precision. Bus this is the real scallop,
guys.
Having created this beauty BSA then messed it up by milling a flast .025 deep from .761 forward for the rear
sight dovetail. The truncates the start of the scallop and is totally unnecessary as the dovetail is nowhere
that far forward.

Another detail, the bottom slots
I found a small error in this and corrected it, pls download the revision and trash the original
Also here is the ejection slot detail.
And top snd lrft view combo of scallop
Also bottom snd left view of slots
and Trigger bracket flats
Very little left to do:
Rear sight dovetail snd top view DONE see next post
Pin hole diameters
Drill and tap callouts DONE see next post
What have I forgotten?

The rear sight dovetail detail view from left
It's a standard 60 degree dovetail .359 wide at bottom .100 deep below rge .025 deep flat starting at .761
from receiver rear.
The centerline of the cutter is at 1.0073 from receiver rear.
Side view shows the flat and the dovtail cut starting at .8315.
The top view shows the flat starting at .761 and truncating the scallop. The flay is .350 wise
The vertical box is the foorprint i\of the cut .100 deeper than the flat, .750 wide and .359 long.
As you can see there is no reason for the flat and scallop to overlap.


It's a standard 60 degree dovetail .359 wide at bottom .100 deep below rge .025 deep flat starting at .761 from receiver rear.
That looks like one of the standard sight dovetails.
Possible cutter source:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=45059/pid=20728/sku/60_deg__x__359_
(http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=45059/pid=20728/sku/60_deg__x__359_)
(Mods: Is such linking allowed?)
Options if you don't have one, or don't want to buy one:

Nearest to 1/32 inch resolution would be 11/32 @ 0.34375 inches. Next after that is 3/8 @ 0.375 inches.
23/64 = 0.359375 inches.
I'm not sure if a 11/32 or 23/64 cutter exists, but I know 3/8 ones do, and there's enough room to fit 3/8.
The difference between 0.359 and 0.375 (the difference is about 0.4mm in metric) is enough to stop you
using original parts, but not an issue if you can make or buy a 3/8 sight.

Link is fine. :-*

You mill a slot first just smakker than the minor diaameter of the dovetail, then the dovetail cutter merely has
to cut the angles.
It is better to use a smakker cutter such as 1/4 or 5/16 and widen the dovetail with successive small cuts
rather than trying to fing a cutter .359 major diameter.
And you must make all cuts at final depth! or the receiver is scrap.My professional opinion is that the rear
sight is the biggest waste of time on the Welrod, and can be omitted entirely, or replaced with a simple low
profile sight like that of 1911. Wait till you see drawing of rear sight itself, ARGH.
This is a weapon designed to shove is the gut or at best has a max effective or 20 feet. When you see what
wipes do to accuracy you will know why I loathe this inappropriate sight.

Sear spromgpin holeAs drawn by the gunsmith this is .052
But in his sear sprring drawing he gives an ID of coils as .125.
This seems sloppy to me.
The hole center is at .210 and the wire diameter is .024 for a total of .050 (pin radius + w.d.) in .065
clearance (slot floor is .275).
I could uo the pin diameter to .080 or, shift hole center to .200 and use a .100 pin.
Does it matter? Should I leave well enouhj alone?

Advice?


Sear pring pin holeAs drawn by the gunsmith this is .052
But in his sear pring drawing he gives an ID of coils as .125

I've been thinking about this.
That 0.125 would be the "free" diameter, wouldn't it? i.e. the spring out of the gun, "uncompressed".
Being a torsion spring, and the way it's used in the Welrod, the coils would close in a bit when it's
compressed. The amount of reduction would depend on the parameters of the spring, including its free
shape, which could dramatically change the reduction.
The large difference there could be an allowance for that, some tolerance, and a bit of room to make fitting
easier.

Diameter NOT length NOT width and unchanging whether or not it is in assy or lying on the table.
Width .250 same as slot.
OAL .459
ID coils .125
Wire diameter .024
That makes coil OD .173
Spring is U shaped, has 3 coils on left arm snd 3 on right
The centerline of coils is located .100 from open ends and .359 from closed end.
The closed end is what elevates sear.
I have not yet figured out whether it is wound CW or CCW.
Since the slot is .710 edge to edge and radius .125 it follows that the parallel sided lenth is .460 and that the
pin hole center at 1.000, .210 is only .065 ahead of the rear of that rectilinear section so .035 of the free ends
intrude into the radius.
I will draw this subassy for clarity


Diameter NOT length NOT width and unchanging whether or not it is in assy or lying on the table.
Take any torsion spring and measure its ID before and after twisting. There WILL be a difference, however
small.
Pull a tension spring and its ID will shrink. Press a compression spring and its ID will increase.
It's impossible for it not to happen unless you have a spring made of an elastic material that allows the wire
to lengthen or shorten.
In case you don't believe me, check out page 13 of this document from a British spring manufacturer:
http://www.leespring.co.uk/pdf/leespring_engguide.pdf
(http://www.leespring.co.uk/pdf/leespring_engguide.pdf)
Quote
Torsion springs, have ends which are rotated in angular deflection to offer resistance to externally applied torque. The wire itself is
subjected to bending stresses rather than torsional stresses. Springs of this type usually are close-wound; they reduce in coil diameter and
increase in body length as they are deflected. The designer must also consider the effects of friction and of arm deflection on torque.
From "Dimensional changes":
Quote
In use the dimensions of torsion springs change. This is caused by the action of winding the spring up under torque and unwinding. During
winding the following changes occur:
The number of coils in the spring increases - one complete turn of 360º of one leg will increase the number of coils in the spring by one.
Subsequently spring length increases one coil.
The mean coil diameter of the spring decreases - as the wire length remains the same during coiling, the additional material for the extra
coils is drawn from a reduction in spring diameter. This reduction in mean coil diameter is proportional to the increase in the number of
coils.
Depending upon the spring design (few coils) the reduction in diameter can be significant.
This reduction can be calculated using the following formula:
Mean coil diameter at working position =
Number of coils in free position x mean coil in free position

Number of coils in working position
Bearing mind these factors it is necessary to take account of the reduction in spring diameter if a spring is to operate on a mandrel or in a
tube. Failure to leave adequate clearances between the inside diameter of the spring and the mandrel will cause the body of the spring to
lock up on the mandrel, leaving the legs to take additional deflection and stress. In this situation the legs will take an immediate permanent
set, altering the spring characteristics and failing to provide the designed function.
From that information you can see that on a 3-coil spring, twisting one end could easily reduce the diameter
by enough that the measurements you have been given are correct.
Assuming 1 complete wind to install the spring:
(3 X 0.125) / 4 = 0.09375
Not so "sloppy" now...
2 coils wound to 3 would give 0.08333
The "Key design factors" section on that page also mentions the CW/CCW combination on double torsion
springs, which is basically what the sear spring is.

I have not yet figured out whether it is wound CW or CCW.
It's kind of both. The open ends are in the middle of the formed spring. The coil at one end of the piece of
wire is wound CW. The coil at the other is wound CCW, then the wire is bent twice between the coils to form
the closed end.
There is a photo showing the spring fitted, but I don't have access to my copy right now. It clearly shows the
open ends in the middle, and the wind direction of the coils. It doesn't show the closed end, as it's a photo of
the assembled pistol. I'll post it later.

Ridicuous.
The maximum deflecion of the sear and sear spring is c.10-15 dwgrwws from fully elevated (limited by the
floor of the sear spring sloy) to fully depressed (below the receiver ID).
The difference between these us about 1/16" which therefore is the max sear engagement with the striker.
The striker rides in bolt assy wiyj its arm within a few thousandths of slot bottim.
So just how much diaameter chande do you estimate for 10 degrees deflection?
See attached
I found a fundamental error in the gunsmith's drawing of sear slot, he assigned its start at 1.250, which
would have not xlwared the sear. I related it to 1.150. CAD is better.
But it's not just 10 degress deflection.
It may be 10 degrees in use, but that's not the important factor.

What is important is the difference between when it's installed and when it's not installed? And there WILL
be a difference. It must be wound back further than the operating range, otherwise the spring wouldn't be
able to exert enough pressure on the sear. For the size of the wire, and the pressure needed to hold the
striker, I'd not be surprised if it was wound 90 degrees or more when it is installed.
Do you have, or can you get, a drawing or photo of the spring out of the gun?

The spring is flat when unassembled. That is the open ends and the closed end are in same plane.
You can see in that drawinh I posted where the closed end is located under the eleated sear. It is .359
foerwRD OF THE PIN CENTER WHICH US AT 1.000.

I don't believe it's flat unassembled. That's not enough tension to hold the sear against the striker spring.

Found the pic.
Looks like 2 coils each side, not 3.

Sorry but you have surmise abd conjecture, I have the drawing of the acual spring. That's like trying to open
with a paor of deuces against somepne with a pat hand.
Let'a not bandy words further about this. Time to start on the bolt assy drawings.


Sorry but you have syrnuse abd conjecture, I have the drawing of the acual spring. That's like trying yo open with a paor of deuces against
somepne with a pat hand.
What is the underlined word supposed to be?
Is your drawing of the spring out of the gun, and who produced it?
ALL of your assertions are conjecture unless you have the BSA drawing of the spring, the spring itself, or a
photograph.
I have produced a photograph which shows the spring has 2 coils each side when it's installed. You said in
an earlier post that there are 3 coils each side. Based on that alone, it looks like there's something wrong
with your information. What else is wrong? Or are you saying the photograph is "conjecture"?
I am sick of your nitpicking and trivialities. I will no longer dignify them wirg any response.
For the information of other members
We have
-- complete set of machinist drawings made by a master gunsmith in full time employ of a Class 2
manufacturer
-- an original MkIIa and an original MkI. The former was the basis for the gunsmith's drawings.
I am on terra firma.
-- Complete set of BSA drawings of zWelrod receivers and some parts. There are being digitized and will be
used to check the other drawings.

Post by: Mongo on May 11, 2010, 01:12:31 PM
I looked at the drawing that was reverse engineered from an original Welrod and the spring in it has two coils
on each side. It is made from .020 wire
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9118/searspring.jpg)

Our drawing also from orig. Welrod show:
W.D. .024
OAL .469
closed end .250 wide by .369 from coil centerline
Open ends .100 from coil centerline
Coil ID .125
0 deg angle (180 deg?) end to end
Nice drawing though. A bit hard to read even after Photoshop.
Unlike the rest of the gunsmith's drawings his spring drawings are just a sketch. That does not impugn his
measurements.
I would expect springs built to either specs to work.
I have no comment on # of coils.

I have ASKED for the last time for the BS to stop. I'm sending a LAST pm to No1_sonuk asking him NOT to
post in this thread again. If I have to do anything else about it, it WON'T be to ask... the public notice will be
the last notice. >:(

Another notice. I hate to be this direct with people, but this thread is a pet project of mine. I do not want it
messed up with an argument again. Sauron started it at my request and Mongo has been good enough to
assist with the drawing project that Sauron has taken on. This is Sauron's thread, which will benefit us all if
he is allowed to finish without interruption. I will monitor this thread and hopefully the nitpicking will stop.
If anyone else (No1_sonuk ?) wants to start another Welrod thread, feel free. This one is just like a build
thread... if you want to comment, do it in a comment thread, NOT here.
Thanks... (http://www.prexis.com/sten/homebuilder/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)

Thanks. I am generally open to input and even criticism but not digressions and tangents.

Post by: Mongo on May 12, 2010, 10:33:59 AM
When you get the originals scanned I would like to see them if possible to verify the reverse engineered
drawings I ahve. I already know there is one dimensional error in my set that I had to fix.

That will depend on the wishes of the owner (it's not me!)
I however will use them to verify my own drawings based on his gunsmith's drawings so a comparison
between mine and yours at that point ought to be useful.
Here is the sear in its normal elevated position.
OAL .952
Length of top .825
hole is .055, pin .052 x .864.
Rear radius .084
Hole center is at 1.918 from receiver rear and .0875 above trugger platform
How do these dimensions compare to yours?

The bolt assy drawing is proceeding well. I will begin posting dimensioned vuews in less than a week.
The master bolt assy drawing comsists of right side, top and bottom views and a bolt face view plus the
srriker, spring guide and cocking hand, extractor, plunger abd spring.

I am now studying the main BSA print for MkIIa "breech bolt housing"
The gundmith got thread wrong, thread is 1.203 x 26 tpi Whitworth "M" tolerance so indeed 55 degree.
A 1mm pitch 60 deg ISO thread is by definition 25.4 rpi 1.203 is close to M30 so M30x1mm will closely
approximate the original thread.
The correct OAL is 4.594
The dimensions are toleranced which is good.
I am resstarting receiver drawing per BSA now

Another screwup by the hapless gunsmith
The four screws for trigger brackets are not 6-48 at all
They are #4 B.A. (British Association.)Major dismryrt id fsirly clodr but threads per inch is way off amd weird.

LOL, I'll run out to the hardware store and see if they have BA #4 screws. :D

I do not know if these are even still produced in UK or is even custom taps are available.
I assume the gunsmith thought 6-48 was a reasonable replacement for a new build, but I a, astounded he did
not even mention the original spec in his drawings. Same goes for his interpretation of the supp tube thread.
The transcribing of the BSA print to CAD id proceeding well.
The print is 36" wide and contains 4 views (top, bottom, right side solid and right side sectioned) plus 5
sectionnal details. I am copying it as is inclusing dimensions and tolerances, and checking accuracy of my
drafting as I go.

I have just received a partial set of 26 pdf's comprising a Knight Armament reverse engineering of the MkI
9mm. It is now clear that the cropped sear spring drawing posted by Mongo was from same set.
As I am not particularly interested in the MkI this is of little practical values to me.

Would it be possible for me to get a copy of those PDF files? That is the model I am most interested in.
nevadablue at hotmail.com
I did not obrain these from Knight nor from anyone under a NDA so I have no heartburn about redistribution.
That beimg said, these are missing any receiver drawings and a lot of major parts, though the bolt is here.
So, you are welcome to these but they will not get the job done as is.
We own a 9mm MkI as well as a .32 MkIIa so at some point I can take measurements and verify the KAC
drawings and complete the set but this is fr the future. At present the priority is the .32 for which we have the
BSA prints of receiver and some maybe all parts.
We also have the gunsmith;s work but it turns out to be crap and therefore, for the second time, weeks of my
CAD work are for nil. All our hopes now reside in the BSA prints we got from Canada and which are slowly
being digitized (this costs money.)
The strategy is to get the scanning done, catalog what we have, then either obtain the missing BSA prints or
reverse engineer the parts from our own MkIIa.
Meanwhile here is an article on BA threads. The #4 BA is .1417 OD, 38.5 trp and takes a #31 tap drill. They
are al,ost entirely obsolete. In N.America they are almost unknown save for the #2 BA which is used to fix rge
sgaft to the head of darts.
If I can obtain taps and screws I will use this goofy thread, else, I will use closest substitute.


If I can obtain taps and screws I will use this goofy thread, else, I will use closest substitute.
BA fixings, as well as taps and dies are still available here in the UK.
Looks like this place stocks BA and Whitworth in the US, so there may be others:
http://www.britishfasteners.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?
(http://www.britishfasteners.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?)
While getting BA wouldn't be much hassle in the UK, North American and other overseas retailers will charge
a higher premium for such "specialist" items.
Ebay UK could be an option for taps/dies.

Such as:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RDGTOOLS-3PC-4BA-TAP-SET-%2f-BA-DIES-IN-OUR-EBAY-
SHOP_W0QQitemZ290340762466QQcmdZViewItem?
rvr_id=&rvr_id=&cguid=f6ed35341260a0e202c51265fef8943b (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RDGTOOLS-3PC-4BA-
TAP-SET-%2f-BA-DIES-IN-OUR-EBAY-SHOP_W0QQitemZ290340762466QQcmdZViewItem?
rvr_id=&rvr_id=&cguid=f6ed35341260a0e202c51265fef8943b)
I think those are carbon steel - their web page:
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/BA____TAPS___AND_DIES.html
(http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/BA____TAPS___AND_DIES.html)

Yes I already googled and found suppliers.
The bolt stop screw is not 1/4-28 as previously stated, ist is 1/4 BSF whicj is 26 tpi and of course 55 deg
Whitworth profile. Such taps and fasteners are easier to find than the older BA type which were introduced in
the 1880s whike BSW and BSF are at least 20th century standards introduced in 1908.
I have friends in UK who visit several times a year so acquiring these taps and fasteners will be easy,
BA threads are still used on some instruments and optics, in model making, and are also needed by people
who maintain vintahe British autos amd motorcycles as well as firearms.
The BSA prints contain many such surptises. I must say I have not seen a satisfactory reverse engineering
of the Welrod yet, although it is hard to say as yet about the KAC as I have no BSA drawings of the MkI.

Are you trying to make an exact copy of one? I see no reason to use any BA threads in a clone.
I have started to design a "welrodish" gun but to use 9mm. I am updating so of the design so broaching is
minimized and CADCAM can be used more easily.
I have chose to go with a 3 lugged bolt instead of 2. I am going to add a safety so that when the bolt is
unlocked the trigger is disconnected from the sear. I believe this was an issue that was attempted to be
solved with the goofy shield that was added on the later model.
I am going to use a AR15 firing pin as a striker when you turn the head off. The sear will protrude into the bolt
to catch it. It will still be cock on closing.
I am going to use a Springfield 9mm EMP magazine since I own one. Thinking of also using a 1911 trigger
and stirrup but have not decided yet.
The extractor will be a modified AR15 as well with the outter lug projection ground off. Same spring set up.
This makes some of the parts easy to make and replace if broken.
Any other suggestions?
Here is a little teaser, not very far along yet.
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5406/9mmwelrod.jpg)

The screws and raps are available in USA as well as UK, the taps are less than $7 each, no need fpr anything
but a taper tap as these are through holes.
If BA and BSF taps were rare and expensive that would be different, But they are not.
Good luck with thw mods.With 9mm you have to use commercial subsonic or else handloads.
Or you can port the barrel rught at the chamber mouth as per AMF Report Luger, or better, use a VP70 barrel
with deep grooves and dump velocity that way.
Subsonic is better on real targets as thw othwe mwthods chop the 9mm off at its knees, making a .380 of it,
In that case better just to chamber for .380. Few of us shoot real targets.

Looks good Mongo. Just curious, why 3 lugs?

Stronger, but that begs the question: isn't the original strong enough? to which the answer is Yes.
Shorter bolt rotation 60 vs 90 degrees.

My personal attitude is: make sure I can complete the original first and THEN worry about mods. No
criticism intended.
I am now putting final touched on the CAD of BSA master MkIIa receiver print, then will come the
dimensioning with original tolerances.
Here are scans of the date, title block and component number of the master BRA receiver print I am
transferring to CAD.

Quote from: NevadaBlue on May 22, 2010, 08:26:25 PM

Looks good Mongo. Just curious, why 3 lugs?
Shorter throw but most important, the lock out of the trigger group when the bolt is unlocked will be actuated
by one of the bolt lugs and I needed it off the bottom.
Had other projects for Remington due this weekend so I did not get any more done.

Rotation angle's not always related to the number of lugs. One example being the bolts in Lee-Enfields. They
have 2 lugs, but rotate only 60 degrees in operation.

I requested a quote from Lee Springs in the UK for the sear spring, based on the drawing Mongo posted.
It doesn't matter whether or not that's exactly the right spring design. It's good enough to give an idea of
how much it would cost to have them made professionally.
Here's the response I just received:
1 off GBP 110.00 / EA
10 off GBP 16.20 / EA
20 off GBP 11.50 / EA

Lee in UK seems high.
The drawing Mongo posted was a sanitized version of the 1991 Knight Armament reverse engineering of the
9mm Mk I Welrod. I have that drawing complete with all yje legends and legalese'
Is the Mk IIa spring the same? I do not know but my best guess is that the Mk I slot may be wider thann in
the Mk IIa.
I am almost done eith dimensioning the breech bolt housing drawing. This is a tedious process, in AutoCAD.
Endless command line calls to DIMTP and DIMTM, DIMLIM to turn tolerancing on and off. Ugh.
I found two instances where the draftsman inked in the value but assignes no "charge", +, - or both. In these
cases I too liberty of deciding myself.
Now comes the checking. More tedium.

I used tolerance format of H over L rather than + and - (BSA used both randomly). Not all dimensions are
toleranced. Likely Document MX-1000 lists default tolerances for these.

Any AutoCAD experts around
All of a sudden I can;t deaw anything except at 0, 90, 180 or 270 degrees.
I need to knoe hoe to turn this off.
The online help sucks'

http://www.ellenfinkelstein.com/AutoCAD_tips_rotate_crosshairs.html
(http://www.ellenfinkelstein.com/AutoCAD_tips_rotate_crosshairs.html)
There's mention in there of "snap angle", which might be what you're looking for.
I googled for:
autocad unlock angle snapping

I had already turned off snap SNAO\P at the command line, no effecr on the hassle. I can;t find POLAR in the
command reference, maybe under TRACKING.
I never use the buttons because they are too small for these old eyes.
I did figure a workaround so drawing is progressing.
Title: Behold
There are four main views on this print:
Top view at lower right (attached)
Right side views at middle left and right
Bottom view (Section E-E) at top righy
And 5 sectional views:
Sections A, B-B and C-C ay lower left attached)
Sections D and F-F at upper left
BSA's dimensioning takes some getting used to. On two occasions this was so oblique as to be almost
opaque, and I substituted direct dimensions instead.
In general I followed their presentation exactly. BSA rarely offers the same datum twise, and often spreads
information about a feature over two or more views. One is expected to take in all views and collate.
All of my posted drawings prior to this sjould be trashed.

Section A is the receiver rear. Note that the circle od diameter .880 is supposed to be a hidden line. That is
the bored out section.
Note the chamfer for bolt assy, dimensions are giveb ub abother view.
Section B-B is the sear spring pin hole and the bolt stop screw hole. Note that BSA just calls out to tap 1/4
BSF and in Section C-C, #4 B.A. without tap drill size, as if to say: look it up, you lazy sod. I will post them
here.
The gunsmith substituted 6-48 because it has same tap drill as 4 B.A.
Section C-C is the trigger bracket screw hole(s).

Thanks sauron! :-*

Two more sections and another main view.
I have now posted all five sections and 3 of the 4 main viewa.
Still checking the 2nd right side view.

The final view
Any questions, fire at will.
All required dimensions and any tolerances are there. Some may not be obvious. Blame BSA not me. They
drove me mad as well.
There IS one exception. I was unable to locate the depth of the central flat of the ejection scallop. The start
position on X axis is given and the length. But no Y axis datum. The angled lines from its end are 15 deg off
the horizontal but their intersections wiyj yje OD and the rear sihjy flat are not given.
I tried using the depth given by the now discredited gunsmith, which was .250, but I found that a 15 deg line
would intersect the OD at the thread relief. So I settled for .200 which looks to be about right.

Post by: sauron on June 01, 2010, 05:15:43 AM
Here are the 6 reiviond I made to dimensioning.
The first two are merely changes in presentation, replacing confusing indirect dimensions with clear direct
ones.
The next two are assugnments of sign to two tolerances that lacked them.
The fifth is assigment of dimension to the undimensioned depth of scallop flat.

And the last is change a dimension from +.003 tolerance to the high value +0. This is necessary to be
compatible with other given dimensions and tolerances.
1. H .128 L .125 late .500 - .003 (from center line)
2. H .040 L .035 late 1.090 -.005
3. H 1.23 L 1.22 late 1.23 unsigned .010
4. H 3.465 L 3.460 late 3.460 unsigned .005
5. .200 late undimensioned
6. 4.219 late 4.216 + .003

Post by: sauron on June 01, 2010, 04:14:46 PM
A fewpages back someone posted a CNET link for download of free DWG True Viewer from Autodesk
BE WARNED
That is 2008 version and WILL NOT P{EN dwg files created with AutoCAD 2010! which is what I use.
The 2010 version is available for free download from Autodesk's site.

Post by: sauron on June 12, 2010, 10:19:58 AM
I am now on second draft of a 3D model of the Mk II.A breech block housing, to keep busy while awaiting
digitization of more BSA prints.

Post by: TQOS on September 17, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
Sauron,Nevada, Mongo and all.Thanks for this brilliant post.I have been fortunate to handle and on
occaisions fire some of the Welrods that were held at the Pattern room, mainly as part of one of Herb
Woodends "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" deals. Remember those Sauron ?Unfortunately as a
UK subject I can not build or posses one, but it does not stop me appreciating the gun, or the knowledge and
ability here.

Post by: NevadaBlue on September 17, 2010, 07:43:45 PM
TQOS, welcome to the forum. Unfortunately, it appears that Sauron has decided to move on, but this WAS a
good thread for sure. Join in the fun and show us what you like! :-*

Post by: dprice3844444 on March 20, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
greetings guys,fng here from florida.any chance of getting print copies of the welrod 9mm? thankd

no
Post by: Wilsonarmsco on April 14, 2011, 09:49:03 PM
I would like to obtain a copy of the drawings on the Welrod when you have them completed. If anyone has a
dimensioned copy of the Welrod drawings, please tell me how I can get a copy. Thank you.

Post by: dprice3844444 on May 10, 2011, 09:32:49 AM
Contact Us at the National Archives in the Washington, DC Area

Contact Us Electronically
View the Organizational Phone List
Search the Employee Locator
The Welrod was made in caliber .32 and 9mm. The US Navy tested them in 1943 and termed them very
satisfactory. They then procured an unknown number of them in .32 caliber. The OSS obtained all of theirs
from the British SOE. It was never a standard issue weapon for the OSS. It did later become a standard CIA
issue weapon. The National Archives in Washington DC has drawings on them in Record Group 227, E151,
B64. They have both the Mark I and Mark II versions in that group so if you contact them ask for both. They
can be reached at nara@gov.com by e-mail. They also made a Sleeve gun that the OSS tested but never
approved. The OSS stil had it in inventory at wars end.

Washington, DC
Telephone: 202-357-5000
Customer Service Center Telephone: 1-866-325-7208
College Park, MD
Telephone: 301-837-2000
Customer Service Center Telephone Number: 1-866-272-6272
Suitland, MD
Staff Contacts
Fax: 301-778-1621
Reference Requests Fax: 301-778-1501
PDF files require the free Adobe Reader.

Post by: dprice3844444 on May 10, 2011, 11:41:55 AM
oops forgot to mark the college park section which should have the stuff

Post by: Nobbzie! on July 09, 2012, 10:55:15 PM
why no more posts? any finished pics?

Post by: Wilsonarmsco on July 10, 2012, 09:32:50 PM
I am still looking for a set of prints on the Welrod. Would like to build a small production run of them. If
anyone has a set of prints, please let me know. Thanks.

Post by: NevadaBlue on July 10, 2012, 10:35:10 PM
I've locked the thread since the original poster is no longer with us on this forum. I'll try to compile the
remaining information and save it for future reference. I purposly left this thread in the public area for
everyone's benefit. Normally threads like this would go into the library and only be accessible from there. In
this case, it will remain public.
There is enough information in this thread to build the gun from. I know of no other resource like this thread.
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Title: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Quote from: sauron on March 31, 2010, 12:07:55 AM

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

The bolt is rear locking not front.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

And the internal layout of the suppressor:

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Is Anders' last name Kjellegren by chance?

Sorry to say so but that .dk link is dead.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Quote from: sauron on March 31, 2010, 07:30:17 AM

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

.32 ACP: 12" long, 1.25" OD basic

9x19mm: 14.6" long x 1.375" OD basic

As you can see scaleup to 9mm had its price.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Thanks mudpuppy, good info! :-*

If the website or a replacement shows up, we can delete these ﬁles.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

So far I havent spotted any ejector so can someone tip me off?

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Magazine interface group

Suppressor Group - do this last.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Quote from: sauron on April 01, 2010, 12:36:16 AM

It can be clearly seen in this picture

Here are some other images I have saved over time

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

What is rgis lug and its function?

My guess is that it is a component of the trigger to striker chain of functionality.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Harder to see in sectioned view but in both it is ayyached to receiver bottom.

But what is the pinned part and what does it do?

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Isn't it the sear?

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

The clouds are beginning to part. Thanks again.

Is my parts list (save for suppressor) now complete?

This is all really interesting stuff here. Thanks guys.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Quote from: sauron on April 02, 2010, 10:56:22 PM

Is my parts list (save for suppressor) now complete?

Yes it is cock on closing.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

I have never encountered one on the Welrods I have examined.

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Whay would result if grip safety were uninstalled?

Title: Re: Welrod b/a Pistols: Toward a Scratch Build

Material 4130 CrMo if it is self respecting.