02 08 11 Proceedings Day31

1
Preliminary matters
1 February 8, 2011
2 Vancouver, B.C.
3
4 (DAY 31)
5 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 A.M.)
6
7 THE CLERK: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia at
8 Vancouver on this 8th day of February, 2011,
9 regarding the matter concerning the
10 constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal
11 Code, My Lord.
12 THE COURT: Counsel, I want to talk about argument
13 because I know I had given you a heads up that I
14 had some commitments in the second week. They're
15 a bit longer than I realized and I'm getting a bit
16 concerned about where we are.
17 I have to be in Ottawa from April 5th to the
18 8th. That's the Tuesday to the Friday inclusive.
19 And as well I have a meeting I would like to make
20 on April 14th. So have you given any idea, any
21 further consideration to the actually number of
22 days we're going to need?
23 MR. JONES: We haven't had any all-participant
24 discussions on topic, My Lord. I think we're
25 probably looking at a written argument in the
26 length of sort of 100 to 120 pages, perhaps a
27 little bit longer. We've been working quite
28 closely with Canada to ensure that both the
29 written and oral submissions aren't unnecessarily
30 duplicative, so we are confident that we can split
31 AG time between us. How long that is, I mean, I
32 think we could probably do our oral submissions in
33 two days if we needed to. We could also probably
34 take three or four if it were available.
35 Now, the 28th, is that a Thursday?
36 THE COURT: No, March 28th is the Monday.
37 MR. JONES: Okay.
38 THE COURT: I'm here all that week and then I'm here on
39 the Monday of the following week and then I'm away
40 in Ottawa.
41 MR. JONES: So we've got six days straight.
42 THE COURT: We've got six days straight. So what I'm
43 saying I guess we better block out those three
44 weeks if we haven't already.
45 MR. JONES: Yes, I think we've reserved them but we
46 hadn't committed to them.
47 THE COURT: Okay. So all I would ask -- there is the
2
Brent Munro (for AGBC)
In chief by Ms. Greathead
1 heads up, if you like, and if counsel could get

2 together and try to figure out the best way of
3 dividing up that time so that everyone -- no one
4 is inconvenienced.
5 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord.
6 MR. DICKSON: So, My Lord, it sounds like we have ten
7 days?
8 THE COURT: Well, we have as many days as we need but
9 it's just when.
10 MR. DICKSON: But on the three weeks we have blocked
11 off.
12 THE COURT: Yes, there's ten days in that three weeks.
13 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, I would have counted 11,
14 My Lord, because we got one day in the second
15 week.
16 THE COURT: But not the 14th.
17 MR. JONES: I see. I see.
18 THE COURT: Not the 14th.
19 MR. DICKSON: I would expect that that's going to be
20 pretty close to what we need.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I was just concerned about that
22 third week and dividing you up into the four days.
23 I know I've told you three days and then I
24 realized it was actually four. Thank you. So
25 we'll come back to this then. Maybe if we can do
26 by memo.
27 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord. We'll do that.
28 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Greathead.
29 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, the Attorney General is
30 calling two witnesses today. And the first
31 witness will be Mr. Brent Munro. And he's
32 speaking to his affidavit, My Lord, which is
33 affidavit Exhibit 17 in these proceedings.
34 THE COURT: Thank you.
35 Brent Munro, a witness,
36 called by the AGBC, sworn.
37
38 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and state your
39 last name for the record.
40 THE WITNESS: Brent Douglas Munro M-u-n-r-o.
41 THE COURT: Please have a seat, sir.
42 MS. GREATHEAD: And I'm just going to give the witness
43 a copy of his affidavit, My Lord.
45
46 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. GREATHEAD:
47 Q So, Mr. Munro can you just confirm that the
3
1 affidavit I've given you is a copy of the

2 affidavit that you have sworn in these
3 proceedings?
4 A Yes, it is.
5 Q And you indicate in your affidavit that you are a
6 manager with the information department, the
7 systems information and research branch of the
8 Ministry of Education. Can you briefly explain
9 what your job involves.
10 A Sure. We -- my branch is responsible for most of
11 the Ministry of Education's public reporting and
12 we answer information requests as well. That's
13 the bulk of our work.
14 Q And in that capacity do you work with the Ministry
15 of Education's database?
16 A Yes, we do. There's a variety of sorts of
17 information that come into the Ministry and they
18 are sent off to my group and we act as a
19 repository of sorts for student information.
20 Q So you reference in your affidavit this
21 computerized database. Can you explain in more
22 detail what that is?
23 A Sure. It's -- it is -- like I said, it's a
24 repository of student information. So we get a
25 lot of administrative type information that comes
26 in. So, you know, student's names, birth dates,
27 the schools they have enrolled in, their gender,
28 that sort of information. It's all stored in
29 there.
30 Q And are there any students attending school in
31 British Columbia that would not be captured by the
32 database?
33 A Within the provincial boundaries, yes. So if a
34 student was at a band school, that's under a
35 federal jurisdiction so they would not be part of
36 our information system.
37 Q Band meaning an Indian band school?
38 A Correct.
39 Q So outside students that are captured by federal
40 jurisdiction, all students going to school in
41 British Columbia are captured by the database?
42 A That's correct.
43 Q Now, I understand from your affidavit that
44 information is collected on the basis of a PEN
45 number, a personal education number for students?
47 Q Can you explain what the PEN number is?
4
1 A Sure. It's a personal education number. Every

2 student attending a BC school is assigned a number
3 and it stays with them throughout their time in
4 the education system. So through an early
5 learning or K to 12 or public post secondary.
6 It's a student identifier number.
7 Q And where does the information come that makes up
8 the individual student information on the
9 database. Where does it come from?
10 A There's certain data collection points over the
11 course of a year and we have a form 1701, it's an
12 administrative form. And that information comes
13 in and it includes the student's personal
14 education number, things like their name, birth
15 date, gender, the school that they're at, their
16 grade that they're in.
17 Q And so is it the school or school districts that
18 are collecting this information on the student and
19 sending it to the Ministry?
20 A That's correct. It comes in that way.
21 Q Now, do you also obtain information on student
22 achievement?
23 A Yes, we do. We have standardized test information
24 such as provincial examinations. That information
25 is also provided to the Ministry and then sent
26 through to my branch.
27 Q Now, I think you mentioned that there were two
28 data points for collection, September and
29 February.
30 A Yeah, September 30th has been the ongoing one and
31 February 1st was added a few years ago. So those
32 are the two points over the course of the year
33 where schools will send in the form 1701. There
34 is a third point that comes in May for continuing
35 education centres and things like that.
36 Q What's a continuing education centre?
37 A That would be where students can go and take a
38 course outside of what a normal school would be.
39 Q So generally for the most part the school
40 districts send information on students to the
41 Ministry in September and February of each year?
43 Q And how long has the Ministry been collecting data
44 on the basis of a personal education number?
45 A Since around 1991. That's when the personal
46 education number came into effect.
47 Q Now, I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to get into
5
1 more details and take you to your exhibits and get

2 you to explain to His Lordship what the exhibits
3 are about. But before I do that could you just
4 explain in very brief, general terms how you use
5 the database to gather information for the
6 purposes of swearing your affidavit in these
7 proceedings.
8 A Sure. Well, we started by looking for students
9 who had ever attended their Bountiful
10 Elementary-Secondary School or Mormon Hills and
11 then once we had that list of students we then
12 looked to see the grades they were in and some
13 graduation information.
14 Q And when you were looking to see the grades that
15 they were in, were you looking to see whether they
16 were present in the educational system?
18 Q And you also looked at information on graduation
19 rates?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now, I'm going to refer you to paragraphs 6 and 7
22 of your affidavit and Exhibit A in particular. So
23 you see the heading there above paragraph 6 and 7
24 "Enrolment at Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
25 School and Mormon Hills after Grade 8"?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And if I could have you turn to Exhibit A of your
28 affidavit. Could you explain for the court what
29 this exhibit is about and how you read it.
30 A Sure. So what we started with for this one is
31 looking at students who were enrolled at either of
32 those two schools in their Grade 8 year and then
33 we looked over the course of the next five years,
34 so six years in total, to see if they were still
35 in the education system in BC. So in any school,
36 not just -- not necessarily Bountiful
37 Elementary-Secondary or Mormon Hills. So just to
38 use an example, go through the first line. The
39 first column shows just -- it's the school code.
40 Unique code assigned to the school. We have the
41 name of the school and then we've got the school
42 year that we're talking about. And then we have a
43 breakdown for male, female and then a total, and
44 then we're looking at some counts. So if we look
45 at that first year in Grade 8 for that first line
46 of Bountiful Elementary-Secondary in the 2004/2005
47 school year for females we see that there were
6
1 seven female students in Grade 8 for the first

2 time in that year. If you go to year 2 you will
3 see there's five and then year 3 there's -- we're
4 back to six. Year 4 six and then the fifth year,
5 we're at 1 and the sixth year we're at one.
6 Q And over in the next set of columns?
7 A The next set of columns is those numbers that we
8 just went through reported as a percentage. So
9 the first, the Grade 8 year, if we're starting
10 with 100 percent of the students and then we see
11 how many are remaining in the system two, three,
12 four, five and six years later. So the second
13 year we're down to 71 percent.
14 Q And so if the student in the column that you did
15 for us was in Grade 8 in the 2004/2005 school year
16 and they completed each grade consecutively after
17 that which of these columns represents when they
18 would have completed year 12?
19 A If they went lockstep through all the grades in
20 progression that would be the fifth year.
21 Q And why do you do it on six-year basis?
22 A We included six years just to account for any sort
23 of issues that come up in a system; scheduling of
24 classes, courses, course availability. It's also
25 a common measure that the Ministry puts out is a
26 six-year completion rate.
27 Q And you've indicated that the numbers as they're
28 reported for each year they're recording whether
29 the student is enrolled in any school in British
30 Columbia?
32 Q So if they move from Bountiful secondary --
33 elementary secondary school to Mormon Hills they
34 would be captured in these numbers?
36 Q But if they move from Bountiful elementary school
37 to a school in Alberta would they be captured by
38 the numbers?
39 A No, they would not.
40 Q Now, can you -- and over on the following pages,
41 if you could just describe what the following
42 pages are with respect to Exhibit A starting on
43 page -- running from page 3 and 4.
44 THE COURT: Sorry, the pages aren't numbered.
45 MS. GREATHEAD: They're not numbered on the top?
46 THE COURT: Okay. Sorry they are.
47 THE WITNESS: Pages 3 and, 4 and 5 are just a graphical
7
1 representation of the data for Exhibit A.

2 MS. GREATHEAD:
3 Q Now, Exhibit B, the following page at page 6, what
4 does this spreadsheet tell us?
5 A This spreadsheet we looked at just counts of
6 students in Bountiful Elementary-Secondary and
7 Mormon Hills. We started in 2002/2003 and went up
8 to the 2009/10 school year and we just looked at
9 Grades 10, 11, 12 and then the secondary ungraded
10 grade. And it's just counts of students.
11 Q What does secondary ungraded mean?
12 A Secondary ungraded is a grade that students can be
13 placed in if they're not working at a particular
14 grade level.
15 Q Would it capture students working both above grade
16 level and below grade level?
17 A Yes, it could.
18 Q And these are the grades that the school reports
19 the students to the Ministry to be present in that
20 time; is that correct?
22 Q And why does the data begin at the 2002/2003
23 school year?
24 A We started with the 2003 -- or 2002/2003, excuse
25 me, school year based on the information that I
26 started with which was an affidavit provided to me
27 of Merrill Palmer who stated starting in 2002/2003
28 school year. There was some numbers in that one.
29 So we started with the same year.
30 Q So you were responding to Mr. Palmer's affidavit
31 and assertions made in that affidavit?
32 A Yes, that was the information I provided.
33 Q And 2003/2004 for Mormon Hills, is that the first
34 year that Mormon Hills -- for which data was
35 available for Mormon Hills?
36 A That's correct. That was the first year we have
37 information.
38 Q And when there are blanks on this spreadsheet what
39 does that mean?
40 A It means there was no one reported in that grade
41 for that year.
42 Q And once again, if these students were attending
43 any school in British Columbia they would show up
44 in the counts on this spreadsheet?
45 A This is just a count of the students in the grade
46 in the year for those two particular schools.
47 Q Now, Exhibit C. This is the -- in relation to
8
1 students who were home schooled?

2 A That's correct.
3 Q And what was the purpose of this exhibit?
4 A We provided a list of all the students that were
5 home schooled because they wouldn't be captured as
6 a grade in the school. Home schooling is reported
7 to the Ministry as a grade and students who are
8 home schooled, the parents are required to
9 register them with a school.
10 Q And if these students went on to receive a
11 provincial credential such as the dogwood would
12 they be captured in the data later in your
13 affidavit?
14 A Yes, they would.
15 Q And Exhibit D, a list of students who have ever
16 attended BESS and who have ever received a
17 dogwood. What is this about?
18 A So this was our look at some of the graduation
19 information. We took a list of any and all
20 students who had ever attended either of the two
21 schools and reported which school they would have
22 received their credential in if they received one.
23 Q So if you count the lines there you would have the
24 number of students that received -- in the first
25 box, that would be who have ever received a
26 dogwood?
28 Q That have ever attended Bountiful Elementary or
29 Secondary School?
31 Q And what is a dogwood?
32 A A dogwood is a BC certificate of graduation.
33 Q What about the BC adult graduation diploma that
34 you referred to in the two bottom boxes on
35 Exhibit D, what is that?
36 A It is another one of the official BC graduation
37 credentials. It has a different set of
38 requirements than the regular dogwood, one of them
39 being you have to be an adult.
40 Q And again so with each box and going on the title
41 of the box, if you count the lines there you'd
42 have the number of students who ever attended,
43 looking at the second box here, Mormon Hills and
44 received a dogwood?
45 A That's correct. So you would see that there were
46 six students who had ever attended that school who
47 received dogwoods, and if you go over to the
9
1 furthest column on the right-hand side you see the

2 school that they received it through.
3 Q And back up one question. Back up to the top box
4 we see that in the '93/94 school years and the
5 '91/92 school years that there were dogwoods
6 issued by Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q And were there any issued after the '93/94 school
9 year?
10 A Not that I have in the database.
11 Q And do you know why it is they were issuing them
12 in the '91/92, '93/94 school years?
13 A My understanding is they were authorized to issue
14 them in those years.
15 Q Now, turning to Exhibit E can you please explain
16 this spreadsheet for the court.
17 A Sure. We looked at the number of students. We
18 started in Grade 7 and just picked a span of
19 school years, so any time between 1994, '95 and
20 2003/2004, and we got that count of students, and
21 we looked at how many of those had ever received
22 either the dogwood credential or the adult dogwood
23 credential.
24 Q And you were looking at the province, Bountiful
25 Elementary-Secondary School, Mormon Hills
26 Elementary School, Bowen Island Community School.
27 Alert Bay Elementary and Canyon Lister Elementary?
29 Q So this spreadsheet at Exhibit E was designed to
30 provide some comparative data?
31 A Yes, we provided some other information aside from
32 the two schools, and just providing a provincial
33 number we looked at for two other communities that
34 had some sort of a geographical restriction to
35 them where students would have to leave the
36 community to graduate, and then we picked the
37 closest geographical school being Canyon Lister.
38 Q So you picked Canyon Lister as a comparison school
39 because it was geographically close to Mormon
40 Hills and Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?
42 Q And the other two, Bowen Island Community School
43 and Alert Bay, are those the two schools you are
44 referring to when you said you picked schools
45 where students would have to leave in order to
46 complete their graduation?
10
1 Q And what was the significance of picking schools

2 where students have to leave to obtain a Ministry
3 credential or BC graduation diploma?
4 A My understanding is that the Bountiful
5 Elementary-Secondary School and Mormon Hills are
6 not certified for the senior grades to award the
7 credentials, so the students who get the
8 credentials would have to get it via another
9 school, leaving either physically or virtually,
10 taking it through a distance education or online
11 program. So we looked for a couple of other
12 schools where -- a similar situation.
13 Q And your chart here has five columns, and so the
14 last two columns -- the second-last column is just
15 the numbers who obtained the dogwood or BC adult
16 graduation diploma out of the total number; is
17 that correct?
18 A Yes, we picked the number of students again who
19 were in Grade 7 any time between those years and
20 then, giving them enough time to have graduated,
21 how many of those did. So we'll see that if we go
22 down to the fourth line, the first line for
23 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School, female
24 students, there was four had been awarded during
25 that time period.
26 Q And the next column over says -- that would be the
27 percentage of the students of the student body
28 there?
29 A Yes, so out of the 60 students who met the
30 criteria for this we had four of them meet, so we
31 got 7 percent.
32 Q And why was Grade 7 selected as a starting grade?
33 A We started with Grade 7 because that was the
34 common grade across all of the schools. Not all
35 of the schools, like the Bowen Island Community
36 School didn't have Grade 8.
37 Q Sorry, when you say the common grade across all of
38 the schools you're referring to your comparators,
39 Bowen Island, Alert Bay and Canyon Lister?
41 Q Now, Exhibit F, what were you looking at in
42 Exhibit F?
43 A So for Exhibit F we started again with our Grade 7
44 students for the first time just in the '94/95
45 school year and then we looked over six years to
46 see how many of those students were still in the
47 system at any school. And then we did some other
11
1 information say, okay, are they still in the

2 system, have they reached Grade 12 and did they
3 get a credential.
4 So if I walk through the first line for
5 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School, fourth line
6 down of the first table. So there was for female
7 students, Grade 7 for the first time in 1994/95
8 there was four of them, and then we go to the next
9 column is the 95/96 school year we still have
10 four, and we go all the way across to the
11 2000/2001 school year where we have zero of those
12 four female students still in any BC school.
13 Q And again if they had gone lockstep completing
14 each -- one grade after the other they would have
15 completed Grade 12 in the '99/2000 school year; is
16 that correct?
18 Q And therefore they would have been under that same
19 analysis if they were going lockstep grade by
20 grade in Grade 11 in '98/99 school year?
22 Q So we're seeing three female students in the
23 '97/98 school year in Grade 10 and by Grade 11 in
24 the '98/99 zero?
25 A Correct.
26 Q And there is on here -- you have your comparators,
27 the province, Bountiful elementary school and
28 Alert Bay Elementary School. Why is Canyon Lister
29 Elementary and Bowen Island not on this
30 spreadsheet?
31 A They had no Grade 7 students in that 1994/95
32 school year.
33 Q And --
34 A The second table that's also on this page is the
35 same figures as above, just represented as a
36 percentage.
37 Q And then over the page to Exhibit G, and we have a
38 series of these tables running from Exhibit G,
39 Exhibit H, I, J, K, L, M, N and O. Can you
40 explain what is happening in these series of
41 spreadsheets?
42 A Sure. All of the exhibits that are following that
43 you just mentioned follow the same methodology,
44 it's just for a different school year. So in
45 Exhibit G when we've got the 1995/96 school year
46 you see -- it's Exhibit H -- you'll see it's the
47 '96/97 school year and so on for the rest of the
12
1 exhibits.
2 Q Chronologically?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And we see then at Exhibit H Canyon Lister
5 Elementary is being added for the first time, and
6 that would be the first year that information was
7 available on the Grade 7 cohort?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q And we see that Bowen Island is added at
10 Exhibit J?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And now, when you're talking about the retention
13 rates from grade to grade, again this is for
14 students that are enrolled in any school in
15 British Columbia?
17 Q But doesn't cover students who might go outside of
18 the province to Alberta or another jurisdiction?
20 Q And that would be the same -- the same analysis or
21 the same point with respect to Bountiful
22 Elementary School and all of the schools you've
23 collected data on?
25 Q Now, do you at the Ministry also collect
26 information on post secondary institutions?
27 A We do. There's a collaboration that's been in
28 effect for a few years now between the Ministry of
29 Education and what was formerly advanced education
30 that's now split into two ministries, and every
31 public post secondary institution within BC to
32 exchange information to look at the transitions of
33 students from the K to 12 to post secondary
34 sector.
35 Q And can I have you look at Exhibit P to your
36 affidavit.
37 A Yes.
38 Q And what is -- what information is to be gleaned
39 from Exhibit P?
40 A So using the information that -- from that
41 collaboration we pulled a list of all enrolments
42 at any BC public post secondary institution from
43 students who had ever had an enrolment at
44 Bountiful elementary school and at Mormon Hills as
45 well.
46 Q So Mormon Hills. Bountiful is pages 23 through?
47 A Through 27. And then page 28 is the same for
13
Cross-exam by Mr. Siren
1 Mormon Hills.
2 Q When you say BC public post secondary institutions
3 what do you mean?
4 A In BC there's private and public post secondary
5 institutions, so this only covers the public ones.
6 So it would be the universities such as University
7 of British Columbia, Simon Fraser, UVIC, all the
8 other ones. And the public colleges or institutes
9 such as Capilano College, Camosun, BCIT. It does
10 not include the private training institution.
11 Q And what is an example of a private training
12 institution?
13 A One like a Sprott Shaw College.
14 Q And now, on -- back to page 23. Does each line
15 here represent a single student?
16 A No, it does not. This is actually all of their
17 enrolments. So as one example, if we can go down
18 to the fourth line you see the 2006/2007 post
19 secondary school year, we've got a student at the
20 College at the Rockies in apprenticeship program.
21 If we go to the next one to look at little more
22 information on that type of provincial program,
23 it's carpentry apprenticeship year one and then
24 you'll see the date that that institution awarded
25 them the completion of that. The following two
26 lines are actually the same student. You'll see
27 year one, year two and year three completed in
28 that apprenticeship program.
29 So out of this complete list of 370ish there's
30 about half of those would be students, in the 164,
31 65 range of students.
32 MS. GREATHEAD: Those are my questions for Mr. Munro,
33 My Lord.
34 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross.
35 MS. TRASK: We have no questions.
36 MR. SIREN: Thank you, Your Lordship. For the record
37 it's Siren, S-i-r-e-n, first initial N., counsel
38 for the FLDS.
39 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Siren.
40
41 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SIREN:
42 Q Mr. Munro, at paragraph 2 of your affidavit you
43 indicate that there's a computer database and you
44 collected information, and this information can
45 include graduation rates, provincial exam scores
46 and the foundation skills assessments; is that
47 correct?
14
1 A That's correct.
2 Q And I want to briefly canvass a few generalities
3 before we begin
4 In regard to graduation you've said that a
5 dogwood certificate is issued by the Ministry; is
6 that correct?
7 A That's my understanding, yes.
8 Q And thus BESS is unable, and when I say BESS I
9 mean Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School, is
10 unable to issue a dogwood certificate; is that
11 correct?
12 A That's my understand.
13 Q And they're unable to because they're a group 3
14 school; is that right?
15 A I believe so.
16 Q Are you able to explain what a group 3 school is
17 or no?
18 A I'm not.
19 Q Pardon me?
20 A I am not able to explain what a group 3 school is.
21 Q In regard to provincial exams, the provincial
22 exams are created by the Ministry of Education; is
23 that right?
24 A They're organized through the Ministry of
25 Education. They're actually created by BC
26 teachers.
27 Q Okay. And are these standardized tests?
28 A Yes, that's my understanding.
29 Q And do you know who marks the provincial exams?
30 A Teachers.
31 THE COURT: Who does?
32 THE WITNESS: BC teachers.
33 MR. SIREN:
34 Q From where?
35 A My understanding is that they're marked in one of
36 two places, either locally at the school by
37 teachers or there's some central marking done
38 where they're sent off somewhere.
39 Q And provincial exams are designed to determine
40 whether students have met the provincial
41 graduation requirements?
43 Q And are you aware of what provincial exam students
44 must write in order to obtain a dogwood?
45 A No, I'm not.
46 Q Now, I did a little bit of internet searching last
47 night. I want to hand you a copy of the handbook
15
1 of procedures for the graduation program. It's

2 from the Ministry of Education website. I have
3 one copy for the witness and one copy for
4 His Lordship. Now, this is chapter 1 of a rather
5 lengthy document. Have you ever seen this before?
6 A I have seen it in parts before, yes.
7 Q Okay. And I just want to refer your attention
8 to -- it's number 2. And I'll read it. It says:
9
10 Graduation program examinations.
11 Examinations that must be taken by students
12 in a 2004 graduation program. During credit
13 in specific courses students must take five
14 course-based provincial examinations.
15 Language Arts 10 and 12, Science 10,
16 Mathematics 10 and Social Studies 11 or 12.
17 Students may also elect to take additional
18 Grade 12 level examinations.
19
20 Do you see that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is that your understanding of what the graduation
23 requirements are?
24 A If that's what the procedure -- handbook of
25 procedures says then, yes.
26 Q You don't have personal knowledge of that?
27 A I do not. That is another area that deals with
28 that.
29 MR. SIREN: All right. Perhaps we could have that
30 marked for identification purposes, the handbook.
32 THE CLERK: Exhibit U for identification.
33 THE COURT: I beg your pardon?
34 THE CLERK: U.
35
36 EXHIBIT U: 30 p/c excerpt from Handbook of
37 Procedures for the Graduation Program; first page
38 is headed Chapter 1 Provincial Examinations,
39 undated
40
41 MR. SIREN:
42 Q You want to turn your attention to Exhibit B of
43 your affidavit, sir. And you discussed this in
44 direct, and again just for my clarification, the
45 graph shows student head counts at BESS for the
46 years indicated, going from 2002 to 2010 and
47 includes Grades 10, 11,12; is that right?
16
1 A That's right, and secondary ungraded.

2 Q And secondary ungraded. And this graph
3 demonstrates or at least shows that there are
4 fewer students attending higher grades?
5 A Which graph are you referring to?
6 Q I'm referring to Exhibit B, student head counts at
7 Mormon Hills. If you look at Grade 10, and I
8 believe in your affidavit you've added up how many
9 students are in Grade 10 and then if you look at
10 Grade 11 and you've added up how many students are
11 in Grade 11, and then in Grade 12 you've added up
12 and there were fewer --
13 A This table?
14 Q Yes, Exhibit B.
15 A Yes, thank you.
16 Q Do you see that, sir?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you don't have any personal knowledge as to
19 why there were fewer students in the successive
20 years; right?
21 A I do not.
22 Q But there are a number of different possibilities
23 of why there are changes in these numbers;
24 correct?
25 A I couldn't speculate on that.
26 Q Well, if you had a student who dropped out between
27 Grade 10 and Grade 11 they would not be reflected
28 in this graph; is that correct?
29 A If they dropped out between Grade 10 and 11?
30 Q Yes.
31 A If they were present in the system in Grade 10
32 they would be included here. If they're not
33 present in the system then we have no information
34 on them.
35 Q So for instance, if you looked at 2006/2007 and
36 you see you have ten students in Grade 10; right?
37 A Yeah.
38 Q And I suppose if they went the following year,
39 which would be Grade 11, it would be 2007/2008 in
40 Grade 11; is that right?
41 A If they went lockstep, yes.
42 Q Yes. And so if a student dropped out there would
43 be one less; is that right?
45 Q Okay. But if a student transferred in from
46 another school there would be one more; correct?
17
1 Q And if a student transferred out from BESS to any

2 other school in the province there would be one
3 less in this graph; is that right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q And if a student, let's say, graduated early after
6 Grade 11 they would then not appear in Grade 12;
7 is that right?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q And if a student unfortunately died they would not
10 be represented in the following year; is that
11 correct?
13 Q And looking at this graph, Exhibit B, you can't
14 determine which of these reasons we've just
15 canvassed is the cause for the change in these
16 numbers; is that right?
17 A Not with this exhibit, no.
18 THE COURT: Sorry?
19 THE WITNESS: No.
20 MR. SIREN:
21 Q And you've also discussed in direct the secondary
22 ungraded students?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And we see that there are five secondary ungraded
25 students in the far right column; correct?
27 Q And why would a student be marked as secondary
28 ungraded?
29 A I can't give you the explicit. That would be in
30 the instructions for the form, but my
31 understanding is that they're not working at a
32 level. They could be working above or below it,
33 so they're at multiple grade levels.
34 Q Okay. Secondary ungraded students can and do
35 graduate; is that right?
37 Q And so if the five secondary ungraded students in
38 this graph graduated it wouldn't be reflected in
39 here?
40 A This table has no graduation information on it.
41 Q So they could have graduated and it wouldn't be
42 reflected?
43 A No, this table has no graduation information on
44 it.
45 Q I want to turn your attention to Exhibit A of your
46 affidavit, sir. Again, you discussed this in
47 direct. What this chart does, as I understand it,
18
1 it takes a base year in Grade 8 for a variety of

2 different years then tracks these students
3 throughout the British Columbia school system for
4 the following years?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q And I think you mentioned that this data is
7 collected from form 1701 reports?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q Okay. And this is an internal sort of accounting
10 the school does twice a year and sends off the
11 information to the Ministry; is that right?
12 A Yes, they send the information to the Ministry.
13 Q And are these students present as of
14 September 30th? Is that what the Ministry is
15 using here?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Now, you looked at the first row, or the
18 first three rows and we'll stick with that for
19 now. And this is the 2004/2005 year. The Grade 8
20 base year; do you see that?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Okay. And in this year there are 16 students. Do
23 you see that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. And then the following year there are 14;
26 correct?
27 A Correct.
28 Q And then you have a corresponding percentage a few
29 columns down which indicates that that's 88
30 percent and that's just 14 divided by 16; is that
31 right?
32 A Yes.
33 Q And then it continues on until the fifth year
34 which would be, as you said earlier, presumably
35 Grade 12 if you went through lockstep; right?
37 Q And you only have three.
38 A M'mm-hmm.
39 Q And you've indicated that's 19 percent, and again
40 that's just three divided by 16; is that right?
41 A Yes.
42 Q This graph will not indicate if new students
43 arrive at the BESS school; is that right?
44 A That is correct. It's a cohort.
45 Q So again sticking with 2004/2005, if two new
46 students came in the second year, which would
47 presumably be Grade 9, this graph wouldn't
19
1 indicate that; is that right?

2 A That's correct.
3 Q Now, if a student that was originally in the
4 Grade 8 class, and again let's stick with
5 2004/2005 as an example, isn't represented in the
6 next year or the year after that there could be a
7 variety of reasons for that; is that right?
8 A Yes. They don't tell us why.
9 Q Well, it could be that the students stopped
10 attending school altogether; is that right?
11 A Possible. I can't speculate on why they're not
12 there.
13 Q But it's possible?
14 A Okay. Yeah.
15 Q It could be that the student transferred to
16 another school outside of British Columbia? If a
17 student, for instance, let's use Grade 8,
18 2004/2005 going into Grade 9 or the second year,
19 and you have 16 students and then you have 14 the
20 following year. If one of those students or two
21 of those students transferred to a school in
22 Alberta and continued on with their education it
23 wouldn't be reflected in this chart?
24 A That's correct. We only have information on the
25 BC schools.
26 Q It would show that there were two less students?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Okay. And of course if a student unfortunately
29 died that would indicate that they were no longer
30 attending?
31 A Yes.
32 Q And for instance if we looked at the fourth year,
33 again sticking with 2004/2005, we see 11 students
34 presumably in Grade 11. If any of these students
35 graduate early it would look as if they stopped
36 attending school after four years; correct?
37 A On this chart, yes, it would.
38 Q Our offices have been in communication and you
39 provided a few new documents to us. I'm going to
40 put a few of those to you right now.
41 The first is entitled "Tracking students
42 enrolled in any British Columbia school in the
43 five years following the first Grade 8 enrolment
44 at either BESS or Mormon Hills." One for the
45 witness and one for His Lordship. Can you please
46 identify and explain what this document indicates.
47 A Yes. We provided a list of student personal
20
1 education numbers and asked for the registration

2 records on them. So we compiled the list based on
3 those PEN numbers, all of the years that they're
4 present in.
5 Q And if I could draw your attention to the
6 2004/2005. So if you look at the columns it says
7 "first Grade 8 school year" and you look two major
8 rows down and you'll see 2004/2005; do you see
9 that, sir?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And I counted it and if you like you can count it
12 too. There appear to be 16 students in the
13 2004/2005 Grade 8 class.
14 A Okay.
15 Q And we have corresponding PEN numbers beside each
16 one of these students; do you see that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And what this is is a breakdown of Exhibit A; is
19 that right?
20 A This was supplemental information that was
21 requested, yes.
22 Q So if we look at Exhibit A for a brief moment
23 again we see, for instance, we look again at the
24 top row, 2004/2005, and we see for base year
25 Grade 8, 16 students; do you see that?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Okay. So when I refer to this new document I've
28 just handed you, those are the 16 students for
29 2004/2005; is that correct?
31 Q All right. And so for instance if you move along
32 the different columns and you go to the fifth
33 year, again I'm looking at the new document I have
34 just handed to you. Presumably Grade 12 you see
35 there are three students that are present there on
36 September 30th; do you see that, sir?
37 A Yes.
38 Q And that corresponds with Exhibit A where you have
39 the fifth year three students; correct?
40 A Yes.
41 Q Okay. Your office also provided a second document
42 and this document is entitled "List of all exam
43 marks in BC schools provided for or for provided
44 list of students."
45 MR. SIREN: Can we have this --
46 THE COURT: Marked as an exhibit proper?
47 MR. SIREN: Yes, marked as an exhibit proper.
21
1 THE CLERK: Exhibit 136, My Lord.

2
3 EXHIBIT 136: 1 page p/c spreadsheet titled
4 "Tracking Students Enrolled in Any BC Schools...";
5 first entry for First Grade 8 School Year
6 2002/2003
7
8 MR. SIREN:
9 Q And I've taken the liberty of highlighting certain
10 portions of this document and putting a number in
11 the left-hand column; do you see that?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q All right. And can you identify and explain to
14 the court what this document is.
15 A Again this was the list of personal identification
16 numbers that you provided to us and asked for
17 provincial exam information.
18 THE COURT: Sorry, this is provincial exam information
19 for the PENs they provided?
20 THE WITNESS: Correct.
21 MR. SIREN:
22 Q And so you notice there are 14 different PEN
23 numbers indicated on this form. And again I've
24 just put a number beside each new one that
25 appears; do you see that?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And these PENs are the same PEN numbers that I --
28 that are indicated in Exhibit 136 that we just
29 looked at a moment ago, and I'll take you through
30 an example for instance. If you look at number 4.
31 Do you see number 4?
32 A Yes.
33 Q And the PEN there is 109021659. Do you see that?
34 A Yes.
35 Q Okay. Now, go to Exhibit 136, the first document.
36 And you will see -- at the very top of the
37 2004/2005 Grade 8 base year you see the 659 PEN
38 number.
39 A Yes.
40 Q Okay. And you'll notice that this student is
41 present for the first four years and then not
42 present for the fifth year; yes?
43 A Yes.
44 MR. SIREN: Now, if you go back -- perhaps we can mark
45 this as an exhibit as well so I can refer to it.
46 THE COURT: 137.
22
1
2 EXHIBIT 137: 2 page colour copy spreadsheet
3 titled "List of All Exam Marks in BC Schools for
4 Provided List of Students"; first entry for School
5 Year 2005/2006
6
7 MR. SIREN:
8 Q So this Exhibit shows -- again 137 shows the
9 different exam scores? And for 659, which is
10 number 4, if you scroll right across, and this is
11 the highlighted portion, you will see there's a
12 science 10 grade and that she scored an 89; do you
13 see that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And then if you go down four rows you will see
16 English 12; do you see that?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And then if you go over two columns it appears
19 that she scored 87 percent on the English 12 exam?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And perhaps briefly let's just go through a few of
22 these, all right, and see how many of these
23 different students have written a provincial -- a
24 Grade 12 provincial exam. If you look at
25 number 1, about five -- four columns down -- or
26 four rows down you will see Communications 12.
27 A Yes.
28 Q Yes. And for student number 2, again look down
29 three rows you will see Communications 12?
30 A Yes.
31 Q And then for student number 3 look down at
32 approximately four rows and you will see
33 Communications 12?
34 A Yes.
35 Q And we've already looked at 4. 5, if you look
36 down four rows you will see English 12; yes?
37 A Yes.
38 Q Now for 6 it appears this student only wrote one
39 provincial exam, Science 10, and no Grade 12
40 provincial exam. But if you look at 7 it appears
41 that English 12 was written and if you look four
42 rows down from 7 you will see that.
43 A Yes.
44 Q And that's the same with 8. Again, look down four
45 rows and you see English 12; correct?
46 A Correct.
47 Q And same with 9, the very last row, again
23
1 English 12?
2 A Yes.
3 Q So the majority of these students who are the
4 students who are indicated in Exhibit A, the
5 majority of these students have written at least
6 one provincial 12 exam; correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q So although they don't show up in Exhibit A as
9 attending Grade 12 or graduating we know, in fact,
10 the majority of them are at least writing Grade 12
11 provincial exams?
12 A Of this list, yes, it looks like.
13 Q And in regard to the students who haven't written
14 a Grade 12 provincial exam on this list we don't
15 know whether these students have left the province
16 and attended educational facilities elsewhere; is
17 that right?
19 Q And of course they could have died?
20 A Correct.
21 Q I want to turn your attention to the comparative
22 tables you created with respect to the other
23 schools. In your affidavit from page 5 onwards
24 you make a comparison between BESS and three other
25 schools, and these three other schools are Bowen
26 Island, Alert Bay and Canyon Elementary; correct?
27 A Canyon Lister Elementary, yes.
28 Q Who told you to select these schools?
29 A One of them came up in discussion with counsel and
30 the other one was selected by my staff.
31 Q Which two were selected by your staff?
32 A Alert Bay and Canyon Lister.
33 Q And what were you looking for in selecting these
34 schools?
35 A We were looking for a school that does not have
36 all of the grades. So something that stops in the
37 Grade 7, 8, 9 range and one that was in a
38 geographic region where you would have to
39 physically leave. Or of course you could always
40 do distance education, online education.
41 Q So schools where they didn't have all the grades
42 up to and including Grade 12?
43 A Correct.
44 Q And in a place that is isolated?
45 A Yeah.
46 Q All right. What was the purpose in doing so?
47 A Well, isolated meaning you have to leave your
24
1 community to go to another school.

2 Q But what was the purpose of you compiling this
3 data with these comparable schools?
4 A To provide something else to look at, at schools
5 that you would have to leave to go get a BC
6 credential.
7 Q You are not a statistician; is that correct?
8 A I am not a statistician, no.
9 Q And you concede that this isn't any scientific
10 comparison; is that right?
11 A No, they're just straight cohort comparisons.
12 Q Okay. Now, in paragraph 16 of your affidavit you
13 indicate that a very low percentage of the
14 students from BESS obtained dogwoods and then you
15 compare it to the three other comparable schools,
16 which have higher rates.
17 A Yes. And Mormon Hills as well.
18 Q Yes. And as you know BESS is unable to issue
19 dogwood certificates; is that correct?
20 A That's correct. That's my understanding.
21 Q And so even if students -- and I know you don't
22 know. We went over the provincial exam
23 requirements and the requirements for graduation
24 and you don't -- you're not sure exactly what
25 those are?
26 A I don't set the graduation requirements so I don't
27 know what they are.
28 Q Yes. But even if students met all of these
29 graduation requirements and attended BESS they
30 wouldn't be able to receive a dogwood certificate?
31 A Okay.
32 Q For Bowen Island and Alert Bay specifically, each
33 of those areas only offer school up to Grade 7; is
34 that right?
35 A That was my understanding, yes. Up to Grade 7.
36 Q And after Grade 7 the children have three choices
37 I suppose, one is distance learning, the second is
38 to travel off the island to another school and
39 third is to stop attending school?
40 A That sounds reasonable, yes.
41 Q And these students, in either Alert Bay or Bowen
42 Island, don't have the option of attending an
43 independent school or an independent group 3
44 school in their area; is that right?
45 A I don't know.
46 Q So you didn't look at that when you were compiling
47 these statistics?
25
1 A Look at what?
2 Q Well, you didn't look at -- you didn't determine
3 whether there were other schools available for
4 these students in either Bowen Island or Alert Bay
5 to attend?
6 A No, we just looked at this school and found one
7 that the students had to leave.
8 Q But you don't know, for instance, for Bowen Island
9 whether there's a group 3 school on the island?
10 A I don't know that off the top of my head, no.
11 Q And just sticking with Bowen Island for a moment,
12 if these students decide to continue going to
13 school rather than doing distance learning they
14 would have to attend a school in West Vancouver;
15 is that right?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Do you know what schools they would attend?
18 A No, I do not.
19 Q So you're not sure whether the schools that they
20 would have to attend are public schools or not?
21 A I don't know which schools would be close for them
22 to attend.
23 Q Now, Bountiful is a Mormon community. That's your
24 understanding?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And the students from BESS come from Mormon
27 families; correct?
28 A You would assume that, yes.
29 Q Okay. The comparative schools, and when I say
30 comparative schools I mean Bowen Island, Alert
31 Bay, Canyon, they're not Mormon communities; is
32 that right?
33 A I have no idea.
34 Q And you don't know if any of those communities are
35 primarily religious communities, do you?
36 A I have no idea.
37 Q So you didn't take that into account when
38 compiling similar schools?
39 A We don't have that type of information so we
40 couldn't take it into account.
41 Q Now, I'm making an assumption -- you can correct
42 me if I'm wrong, but you didn't look at any
43 socioeconomic indicators when creating these
44 comparative schools; is that right?
45 A We don't have that type of information so, no, we
46 couldn't include it.
47 Q So you wouldn't know a family's income or average
26
1 income level for any of these different areas; is

2 that right?
3 A No, we would not know that.
4 Q And you wouldn't know a family's education level
5 from any of these different areas; is that right?
6 A That's correct.
7 Q And same with occupation?
8 A Correct.
9 Q So you're unable to say what effect if any
10 socioeconomic levels or status has on education;
11 is that right?
12 A That's correct. I can't say that.
13 Q You touched on Exhibits F to O earlier and I just
14 want to draw your attention to Exhibits F through
15 I, and this is page 11 to 14 of your affidavit?
16 THE COURT: What page did you say?
17 MR. SIREN: 11 to 14, Your Lordship. So Exhibit F is
18 11.
19 Q And this is similar to Exhibit A insofar as you
20 take the base year and you track these students
21 through; is that right?
22 A Yes, this a cohort, correct.
23 Q And in this case you use Grade 7 as a base year?
24 A Correct.
25 Q And you gave evidence earlier indicating that BESS
26 did not have Grades 11 and 12 before 2003; is that
27 correct?
28 A I can't speak to what they're authorized or
29 certified to do, but that's my understanding.
30 Q Okay. And so for instance for this year, for
31 Exhibit F, you look at the base year and that's
32 1994/1995 and then you track them along.
33 1999/2000 would be Grade 12; right? Presumably if
34 you went lockstep?
35 A Which year did you say, sorry?
36 Q 1999/2000.
38 Q Okay. And in this year BESS didn't have a
39 Grade 11 or Grade 12; is that right?
40 A That's my understanding.
41 Q And if you go over to Exhibit G, again look at
42 Grade 11 presumably would be 1999/2000 and the
43 following year would be 2000/2001 which presumably
44 would be Grade 12, BESS didn't have grades 11 or
45 12 offered; correct?
46 A Again, that's my understanding, yes.
47 Q Okay. So we'll move along. But this is the same
27
1 problem we have with H and the same problem with

2 I, is that BESS isn't even offering Grades 11 or
3 12 when you're tracking this data through. So
4 will you concede that a better comparison would
5 have been gleaned from using years where Grades 11
6 and 12 existed for BESS?
7 A Okay. So just -- this chart shows them enrolled
8 at any school. So when you're looking at the BESS
9 number, that Grade 11 or 12 school year they can
10 be at any BC school.
11 Q Yes.
12 A So we're starting with the cohort of BES students
13 and saying are they still in the system.
14 Q Yes. No, I appreciate that and these students may
15 very well have been going through BESS the whole
16 way. We don't know from this data; correct?
17 A It doesn't list them school by school, that's
18 correct.
19 Q And these students then, if they went -- if they
20 were in BESS in Grade 10 for these years would
21 have to choose to go to a different school if they
22 wanted to continue on with their education?
23 A They can choose to go to a different school.
24 Q Yes. They didn't have an option to continue on in
25 BESS because Grades 11 and 12 didn't exist?
26 A Okay.
27 Q And then more generally, for all of the exhibits F
28 through O, and this is pages 11 through 20,
29 they're just different Grade 7 base years?
31 Q And you followed the student for the next six
32 years as you've indicated?
33 A Yes.
34 Q These charts have the same frailty that Exhibit A
35 has. And when I say "frailty" it doesn't give us
36 a reason for why there are changes; is that right?
37 A No, we don't get that type of information.
38 Q So again if you had students graduating early,
39 after Grade 11, it wouldn't indicate that they
40 graduated early in any of these charts; is that
41 right?
42 A Not -- well, in some of them it would if they've
43 graduated with one of the BC credentials, then
44 yes, because if you go further down the columns it
45 shows were they awarded a dogwood ever.
46 Q And your understanding is BESS doesn't issue and
47 is not allowed to issue dogwood certificates; is
28
1 that right?
3 Q So if we use -- and I don't want to get clogged
4 in semantics, but we use the term "graduation"
5 rather loosely to not complying necessarily with
6 the Ministry, but going through Grade 12 at BESS.
7 That's what we'll call graduation just for these
8 purposes; okay?
9 A I can only speak to the graduation information we
10 have.
11 Q No, I appreciate that. I'm saying for these
12 students, just as we went through for Exhibit A,
13 if they had met BESS's graduation requirements
14 after Grade 11 it would appear as though they
15 stopped attending for Grade 12; correct?
16 A If they did not register in the subsequent year
17 yes, it would appear that way.
18 Q And if these students transferred out of the
19 province they would not be represented in this
20 graph?
22 Q And of course if they died?
23 A Correct.
24 Q In paragraph 2 you mention the foundation skills
25 assessment and that the Ministry has the ability
26 to track these numbers; is that right?
27 A That is some of the information we have, yes.
28 Q And the foundation skills assessment is an annual
29 province-wide assessment of British Columbia
30 students' academic skills; is that right?
31 A There are three components to the test, yes.
32 Q And what are those three -- sorry to cut you off.
33 A Sorry, what are the three components of it?
34 Q Yes, components.
35 A There's a reading component, a writing component
36 and a numeracy component.
37 Q And this test is provided to Grade 4 and Grade 7
38 across the province; is that right?
39 A Yes.
40 Q And what is the purpose of that test?
41 A I can't speak to that. I don't develop the test.
42 Q We've spoken briefly about the data repository
43 that the Ministry has. And in this data
44 repository you would have FSA test scores;
45 correct?
47 Q And you could pull them up?
29
1 A You could, yes.

2 Q Now, recently the Fraser Institute released a
3 report. Are you aware of this?
4 A I heard it came out, yes.
5 Q And they use, as I understand it, FSA tests to
6 rank schools?
7 A I can't speak to their methodology.
8 Q Are you aware that they use the FSA test or no?
9 A I'm aware that they do use some of that
10 information, yes.
11 Q Okay. Now, I appreciate that you didn't write
12 this report and you haven't reviewed it I imagine.
13 The most recent Fraser Institute report, you have
14 not reviewed it?
15 A I have not seen it yet.
16 Q But I am going to pass you a copy of it.
17 THE COURT: Even though he hasn't read it, hasn't seen
18 it.
19 MR. SIREN: I thought I would get the preliminaries out
20 of the way.
21 THE COURT: Any objections? I take it there are none.
22 MR. JONES: I'll wait to see where it goes, My Lord.
23 But it is what it is.
24 MR. SIREN:
25 Q Now, all I'm interested here is the source data.
26 I know that -- or as I understand from reading
27 some of the report that the Fraser Institute
28 doesn't just use F SA reports, they use other
29 calculations. But I want to ask you questions
30 about the FSA scores.
31 A Okay.
32 Q And I want to ask you questions about BESS's FSA
33 scores and Bowen Island's, because we've spoken of
34 Bowen Islands earlier and it's a comparable group.
35 Now, if you turn to page -- and it's lengthy, I
36 appreciate that. It's page 44. And I want you to
37 turn to another page at the same time so we have
38 both pages handy. 44 and 63. So on 44 -- are you
39 on that page, sir?
40 A Yes.
41 Q And you'll see that Bowen Island is -- it's four
42 rows down in the middle?
43 A Okay.
44 Q All right. And you will see in Bowen Island's
45 graph.
46 THE COURT: Okay. I've got 44. Sorry.
47 MR. SIREN:
30
1 Q You'll see that there's a Grade 4 average score

2 indicated, and Grade 7 average score; you see
3 that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And beside each there are three components, the
6 three components you mentioned earlier, reading,
7 writing and numeracy?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And then if you scroll along the different columns
10 to 2010, and this is I believe the 2010 FSA score,
11 and you have again six corresponding scores for
12 each of the different grades and for each of the
13 different components; do you see that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, you can't tell me off the top of your head
16 whether this is accurate or not, can you?
17 A No, this is not a Ministry report.
18 Q Okay. Hold that page right there and let's just
19 turn now to 63. And you will see at the bottom of
20 page 63 in the middle you have Bountiful; do you
21 see that, sir?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And again we have the same columns and rows --
24 sorry, Grade 4 average score and Grade 7 average
25 score with the three different tests for each?
26 A M'mm-hmm.
27 Q And if you go along to 2011 there's some scores?
28 A Yes.
29 Q And of course you can't tell me whether those are
30 accurate?
31 A No, this is not a Ministry report.
32 Q All right. Now, I'll put it to you, and you can
33 look to verify, that five out of the six scores
34 indicated in this report have Bountiful beating
35 Bowen Island; okay?
36 A Okay.
37 Q Now, the Ministry could verify whether this is
38 accurate; is that correct?
39 A The Ministry can verify what the data is, but they
40 can't verify the accuracy of this report. They
41 don't produce it.
42 Q No, but you could verify, for instance, if we're
43 looking at page 44, Grade 4 average score for
44 Bowen Island, and let's look at reading for 2010.
45 It says 571. The Ministry can find out whether
46 that's the actual score.
47 A We can tell you what the average score is, yes.
31
1 Q Okay. I'm going to make a request that on the

2 break you call your office and you ask them to
3 confirm whether these are accurate so we can tell
4 His Lordship whether it is, in fact, true that
5 Bountiful has outscored Bowen Island on five out
6 of the six FSA tests. Would that be possible?
7 A I can put the request forward to have what the
8 average scores are for those two schools in
9 question, yes.
10 Q Okay.
11 A But again this is not a Ministry report.
12 Q No, I appreciate that, but the Ministry will be
13 able to confirm whether these scores are the true
14 scores?
15 A I can provide the average scores, yes.
16 MR. SIREN: Can we mark this as an exhibit for
17 identification purposes only.
18 THE COURT: Thank you. Exhibit.
19 THE CLERK: Exhibit V for identification, My Lord.
20
21 EXHIBIT V: 97 page p/c Report Card on British
22 Columbia's Elementary Schools 2011 from the Fraser
23 Institute dated February 2011, held with a black
24 bulldog clip.
25
26 MR. SIREN: Your Lordship, those are my questions and
27 perhaps we could take the break and give Mr. Munro
28 an opportunity.
29 THE COURT: Yes. Is there further cross?
30 MR. DICKSON: Not from us, My Lord.
31 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take the break. Thanks.
32 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court is adjourned for
33 the morning recess.
34
35 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)
36 (MORNING RECESS)
37
38 THE CLERK: Order in court.
39 THE COURT: Mr. Siren.
40
41 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SIREN: (Continued)
42 Q We left off, Mr. Munro, discussing some of the
43 findings in the Fraser Institute's report, and you
44 went back and I understand tried to determine
45 whether they were accurate or that the Ministry
46 could confirm the different scores listed for
47 Bowen Island and Bountiful; is that correct?
32
Edward Vanderboom (for AGBC)
1 A That is correct.
2 Q And what did your office inform you of?
3 A My staff informed me that the numbers were correct
4 for those two schools for the reading and the
5 numeracy components. We were unable to confirm
6 the writing ones because it appears that it has
7 been put on a different scale. But reading and
8 numeracy were correct.
9 MR. SIREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Munro.
10 THE COURT: Thank you. Any redirect?
11 MS. GREATHEAD: No redirect, My Lord.
12 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, you're excused.
13
14 (WITNESS EXCUSED)
15
16 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, the Ministry of Attorney
17 General is now calling Mr. Edward Vanderboom.
19 Edward Vanderboom, a
20 witness, called by the
21 AGBC, sworn.
22
23 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and spell your
24 last name for the record.
25 THE WITNESS: Edward Vanderboom V-a-n-d-e-r-b-o-o-m.
26 THE COURT: Please have a seat, sir.
27 MS. GREATHEAD: I'm handing up Mr. Vanderboom a copy of
28 his affidavit, My Lord.
29
31 Q Mr. Vanderboom, can you confirm that the affidavit
32 that I've handed you is a copy of the affidavit
33 that you swore in these proceedings.
34 A Yes, I do.
35 Q And you indicate in your affidavit that you are
36 the inspector of independent schools, appointed
37 under the Independent School Act.
38 A Yes.
39 Q Can you tell the Court what an independent school
40 is.
41 A An independent school is a school authorized under
42 the Ministry of Education through the Independent
43 School Act to offer an educational program. It
44 offers a program in schools that are of a variety,
45 could be religious schools, it could be special
46 schools, Waldorf, Montessori or university prep
47 schools, providing choice for parents who don't
33
1 wish to have their children attend a public

2 school. There's about 12 percent of the students
3 in British Columbia that attend independent
4 schools.
5 Q Now, as the inspector of independent schools, can
6 you briefly describe what your responsibilities
7 are.
8 A Under the Independent School Act my responsibility
9 are the regulation of independent schools, which
10 includes registering independent schools,
11 inspecting them and confirming that they meet the
12 requirements of the Independent School Act and
13 therefore classifying them accordingly.
14 Q Now, you used a number of terms in there. When
15 you talked about registering an independent
16 school, what are you referring to there?
17 A It would be identifying a school or identifying an
18 authority that wishes to establish a school and
19 issuing them an interim classification enabling
20 them to begin school, and subsequently they could
21 become classified as a group 1 or a group 2 school
22 or perhaps a group 4 school.
23 Q Now, so you've mentioned one of your roles is to
24 classify independent schools and you just
25 mentioned group 1, group 2, group 4 schools. Can
26 you explain what that is all about in the
27 independent school context.
28 A The Independent School Act recognizes four groups
29 of independent schools. One, group 1, 2, 3 and 4.
30 Group 1 and 2 schools meet the requirements of the
31 educational program as established by the
32 educational standards order. They provide -- they
33 must have certified -- BC certified teachers
34 delivering the program and they are funded at
35 either 50 percent for group 1 or 35 percent of the
36 per pupil operating a grant that goes to the
37 district in which the independent school is found.
38 Q Sorry, just to stop you there for a moment. Is it
39 fair to say the difference between group 1 and 2
40 is in the amount of funding they receive from the
41 Ministry?
42 A Yes.
43 Q I'm sorry, now, you were telling us about the
44 other groups, 3 and 4?
45 A Yes, group 3 schools meet basic requirements
46 having to do with safety of students, and that is
47 evidenced through compliance with municipal
34
1 requirements for facilities. It must meet safety

2 requirements with respect to supervision of
3 students and with respect to teachers having a
4 criminal record check satisfactory through the
5 PSSG, the Ministry of Public Service and Solicitor
6 General's office.
7 The group 4 schools are like group 1 and
8 group 2 schools in terms of delivering an
9 educational program; however, they are not
10 required -- or they do not receive funding from
11 the Ministry because these ostensibly serve
12 international students whose parents are not
13 resident in British Columbia and therefore not
14 taxpayers in British Columbia.
15 All of the schools, 1, 2, 3 and 4 must comply
16 with schedule 1 of the -- section 1 of the
17 schedule of the Independent School Act
18 Q And what is involved in that?
19 A Which says they do not promote racial
20 discrimination, intolerance, sedition -- there's a
21 list provided there. I don't think I've been
22 exhaustive in describing the list, but at any rate
23 all independent schools must comply with that.
24 Q So groups 1, 2 and 4 must meet certain educational
25 programs; is that correct?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And what about group 3 on the educational program
28 standards?
29 A Group 3 provides an educational program of sorts
30 to the choosing of the school authority but is not
31 required to meet the standards of the educational
32 standards order, which is a piece of legislation
33 required by group 1, 2 and 4 schools.
34 Q And are the group 3 schools funded?
35 A No.
36 Q And can an individual school have mixed
37 classification, so some of the grades would be
38 group 1 or 2 and other of the grades would be
39 group 3?
40 A Yes. Some of the schools can be grouped as a
41 group 1 school from 1 through 7 and then group 3
42 from 8 through 12 for example, yes.
43 Q Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about
44 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School and Mormon
45 Hills Elementary School. Are you familiar with
46 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?
47 A Yes, I am.
35
1 Q And have you been there?

2 A Yes, I have.
3 Q And what was the purpose of your visit to that
4 school?
5 A As the deputy inspector, which was my position
6 prior to becoming the inspector of independent
7 schools, that's prior to 2009, I went to Bountiful
8 Elementary-Secondary School for a program
9 evaluation at which time I looked at the Grade 11
10 and 12 program.
11 Q Can you describe Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
12 School for His Lordship in terms of where it's
13 located and who it serves, those kind of details.
14 A It is located near the town of Creston in south
15 eastern part of British Columbia. It's a
16 community just south of Creston and it serves --
17 the community is comprised of members of the FLDS
18 church community and the students at the school
19 are children of parents within that community.
20 Q And is Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School an
21 independent school?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q And how is it currently classified?
24 A It's currently classified as a group 1 school from
25 kindergarten through Grade 10 and identified as a
26 group 3 portion within that school for Grades 11
27 and 12.
28 Q And based on what you have told us then they would
29 be required in K through 10 to meet certain
30 educational standards?
31 A Yes.
32 Q But not so for Grades 11 and 12?
33 A Yes.
34 Q Now, Mr. Vanderboom, can I have you turn to
35 paragraph 18 of your affidavit, and it's in this
36 paragraph you're talking about the classification
37 and certification of Bountiful
38 Elementary-Secondary School historically. Are the
39 numbers that you've given at paragraph 18
40 accurate?
41 A Well, no, they're not. The first line of the --
42 in 18 says '91/92 to '93/4 it should be '91/2 to
43 '94/5.
44 Q And that's talking about school years there?
45 A That's talking about school years. And at that
46 time they were group 1 K through 12.
47 Q Up until the '94/95 from -- at least from '91/92
36
1 they did have to meet the educational programs

2 standards for Grade 11 and 12 as well?
3 A Yes. And the second line should be also changed.
4 So rather than '94/5 to '04/5 it should be '95/6
5 to '04/5. And in that line it says that Grade 11
6 and 12 was not offered, so what happened from
7 '95/6 -- sorry, '94/5 to the following year, from
8 our indication they no longer had students in
9 Grade 11 and 12 and therefore dropped their grade
10 offering to include only 10.
11 Q Now, and so as you mentioned the current
12 classification is as set out on the bottom line
13 there?
14 A Yes.
15 Q They're a group 1 school for K to 10 and group 3
16 for 11 to 12?
17 A Yes, that's correct.
18 Q Are you also familiar with Mormon Hills Elementary
19 School?
20 A Yes, I am.
21 Q Have you attended Mormon Hills Elementary School.
22 A Yes, I've been there too.
23 Q And can you again, like with Bountiful
24 Elementary-Secondary School, explain for the court
25 where this school is located and who it serves.
26 A It's located in the same community as Bountiful
27 Elementary-Secondary. The school is located
28 adjacent to the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
29 School.
30 Q And is it also --
31 A It serves the same kind of community, although
32 there may be differences within the Mormon Hills
33 community and the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
34 School having to do with their philosophy,
35 direction, whatever. There was some disagreement
36 in the community which gave rise to the
37 establishment of the Mormon Hills elementary
38 secondary school.
39 Q And is Mormon Hills also an independent school
40 governed under the Independent School Act?
41 A Yes, it is.
42 Q And how is Mormon Hills currently classified?
43 A It's currently classified as a group 1 school from
44 kindergarten through Grade 12.
45 Q And how long has Mormon Hills had the K to 12
46 classification in group 1?
47 A We sent in an inspector to do a program evaluation
37
1 in October of 2010 at which time it was determined

2 that their Grade 11 and 12 program met the
3 requirements of the educational standards order
4 and therefore as of September the 1st, 2010, so in
5 other words for this current academic year
6 2010/11, they are now certified for kindergarten
7 through Grade 12.
8 Q Now, if I could have you, Mr. Vanderboom, refer to
9 paragraph 34 of your affidavit. And in
10 paragraph 34 you are talking about the
11 classification and certification of Mormon Hills
12 secondary school; is that correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And did you in preparing to give evidence this
15 morning have another look and create a document to
16 provide further detail about the past
17 certification of Mormon Hills?
18 A Yes, we did. We reviewed the matter and found
19 that there were some corrections that needed to be
20 made with respect to the flow of certification
21 from '03 to 2010.
22 MS. GREATHEAD: And My Lord, I haven't given my friend
23 the amicus, I'm sorry, I talked to my friend
24 from -- counsel for the FLDS about Mr. Vanderboom
25 has created a chart just to clarify this
26 paragraph.
27 Q I'm sorry, Mr. Vanderboom -- sorry. Is this a
28 copy of the chart that you created with respect to
29 the certification and classification of Mormon
30 Hills Elementary School?
31 A Yes.
32 Q And could you explain, please, what it means.
33 A Right. So starting in '03/04, which is the first
34 year Mormon Hills Elementary School started, it
35 was identified as a group 3 school. The following
36 year, '04/05, it became a group 1 school in
37 kindergarten through 7. Then in -- now, then in
38 '05/06 it became -- the kindergarten students in
39 '05/06 went elsewhere so they dropped that grade
40 and 1 through 7 continued as a group -- a group 1
41 school.
42 The following year, '06/07, the school was
43 wanting to add grades. You can see that group 1
44 was identified for grades 1 through 7, and 8 and 9
45 continued as a group 3 school. The year after
46 that, '07/08, they added another grade to the
47 group 3 portion, so they now have 8, 9 and 10 as
38
1 group 3. The following year, '08/09, they have 1

2 through 9 certified as group 1. So one of the --
3 two of the grades in -- from the group 3 portion
4 became a group 1 and the group 3 portion was
5 continued as a K as well as 10, 11 and 12.
6 Then in '09/10 group 1 is now K to 10, so
7 they've added another grade, and group 3 was 11,
8 12, and in 2010, this year then, the entire
9 school, K to 12, became a group 1 school.
10 Q So the first year that they were classified in
11 group 1 for Grades 11 and 12 was this school year?
12 A Yes.
13 THE COURT: Exhibit.
14 MS. GREATHEAD: I wonder, My Lord, if I might have this
15 marked as the next exhibit.
18
19 EXHIBIT 138: 1 page p/c table titled "Mormon
20 Hills Elementary-Secondary School"; first entry
21 2003/2004, Group 3
22
23 MS. GREATHEAD:
24 Q Now, I'm going to ask you a few questions about
25 the collection of data and refer you to one of the
26 exhibits in your affidavit. We have heard from
27 Mr. Munro that school districts provide
28 information on an individual basis based on a PEN
29 number to the Ministry of Education. Now -- and
30 he's referred to a form, form 1701. Are you also
31 familiar with the form 1701?
32 A Yes, I am.
33 Q And if I could have you then turn to Exhibit A in
34 your affidavit. And we have A at page 1. What is
35 this here? Exhibit A, page 1?
36 A It's a report record and data submission order.
37 Q And who makes these orders?
38 A The minister makes these orders.
39 Q It's a ministerial order?
40 A Yes.
41 Q And this is the one that is setting up the data
42 collection based on form 1701?
43 A Yes, it is.
44 Q And over the page then to page 3. What is this?
45 A This is the 1701 student data collection form
46 which outlines for what purposes the 1701 is
47 collected and what information is provided on
39
1 that, and it provides also step-by-step

2 instructions for the completion of this form.
3 Q And those are instructions to who?
4 A Those are instructions to independent schools.
5 Well, actually all schools, but also independent
6 schools in particular and also BC certified
7 offshore schools.
8 Q So from this form the Ministry will get
9 information on where a student is going to school,
10 which school they're in, their gender, their name,
11 their age, that kind of information?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And both public schools and independent schools
14 use this form to --
15 A Yes.
16 Q -- collect information? And does the Ministry
17 collect information about special needs students
18 at the independent schools?
19 A No, that information is not collected through a
20 1701. If a school has students that are enrolled
21 that are deemed to be special needs students then
22 the school is -- the school may make application
23 directly to our office, the office of the
24 inspector of independent schools, and if approved
25 received funding for 1, 2 or 3 supplementary
26 special education grants.
27 Q I notice on this one, on page 3 of Exhibit A it
28 indicates that the files must arrive at the
29 Ministry on or before February 12th, 2010. So
30 this is the instruction for the data collection
31 that occurs in February?
32 A Yes.
33 Q And there is one also that occurs?
34 A September 30th. Or after September 30th. Based
35 on a September 30th count.
36 Q Now, I'm going to move on and ask you a few
37 questions about the inspection process generally.
38 I'm going to first ask about the inspection
39 process as it relates to independent schools
40 generally and then I'm going move and ask you
41 specific questions about Bountiful elementary
42 school and Mormon Hills in particular.
43 So on the process generally, and maybe I could
44 have you look at paragraphs 15 and 16 of your
45 affidavit, and you talk there about external
46 evaluations and monitoring inspections. Can you
47 explain in general terms what an external
40
1 evaluation is.
2 A An external evaluation is an evaluation that is
3 identified in the Independent School Act,
4 initiated by the inspector of independent schools
5 through an external evaluation committee. The
6 inspector is authorized to appoint a committee, an
7 external evaluation committee, to go into an
8 independent school and to review matters
9 pertaining to the operation of the school as
10 identified and as required by the Independent
11 School Act.
12 Those matters include looking at facilities,
13 program, teacher certification, policies,
14 procedures, operations, those items, items like
15 that. And the external evaluation committee
16 writes a report to the inspector and based on that
17 report the inspector is able to classify an
18 independent school.
19 Q And when you say "classify" that's back to the
20 groups 1 through 4 that you explained earlier?
21 A Right.
22 Q And have you been a member of an external
23 evaluation committee?
24 A Yes, I was.
25 Q You --
26 A Prior to my role as inspector of independent
27 schools, prior to coming to work for the Ministry
28 I was seconded over a number of years to lead
29 external evaluation committees for independent
30 schools.
31 Q And then again as the inspector, the current
32 inspector of independent schools, have you caused
33 external evaluation committees to be formed and to
34 do their work?
35 A Yes.
36 Q And what kind of people or like, what roles -- are
37 they teachers or principals, or who is on these
38 external evaluation committees?
39 A External evaluation committee are comprised of
40 teachers, former teachers, current teachers,
41 former administrators, current administrators in
42 independent schools but also retired
43 superintendents from public schools, former
44 inspectors of independent schools. Folks who know
45 the external evaluation process and who know, are
46 fully familiar with the Independent School Act.
47 Q Now, in your affidavit you also mentioned
41
1 monitoring inspections. Is a monitoring

2 inspection something different than an external
3 evaluation?
4 A Monitoring inspections occur between successive
5 external evaluations. Monitoring inspections are
6 undertaken by Ministry inspectors. That would be
7 someone from our office. Could be myself or the
8 assistant deputy inspector or the deputy
9 inspector. These monitoring inspections take a --
10 review the matters that are identified in a
11 checklist for monitoring purposes, and really,
12 it's like a mini external evaluation.
13 Q And what's the purpose of a monitoring inspection?
14 A To confirm that between external evaluations the
15 school continues to comply with the requirements
16 of the Independent School Act.
17 Q And what about inspections for group 3 schools?
18 Do they differ from the external evaluation and
19 the monitoring inspection that you've just
20 described?
21 A Group 3 schools, the requirements for group 3
22 schools are different than the requirements for
23 group 1, 2 and 4 and so the inspection process,
24 while similar, focuses on matters pertaining to
25 the safety of students, the facilities, to ensure
26 that the building is sound and suitable for an
27 educational purpose, ensuring that the teachers
28 have -- the teachers that they employ are -- have
29 suitable criminal record checks, but we do not
30 look at the educational program. So it differs
31 from a monitoring inspection of the group 1, 2 or
32 4 school in terms of its substance and its degree
33 of compliance requirement.
34 Q So you're only going to look at the educational
35 program if the group 3 school is saying they would
36 like to become a group 1 or 2 school; is that
37 correct?
38 A Yes, at which time it would be called a program
39 evaluation.
40 Q And what happens in a program evaluation?
41 A We look at the particular grades under
42 consideration and determined that the educational
43 program offered in those grades meets the standard
44 established by the Independent School Act and its
45 supporting regulations vis-a-vis the educational
46 standards order.
47 Q Now, you've mentioned that an -- and I'll have you
42
1 turn to paragraph 17 of your affidavit. And

2 you're saying here, at paragraph 17 you're talking
3 about the different classes of schools, and in
4 your second sentence you state:
5
6 As stated in that document the external
7 evaluation of group 1, 2 and 4 schools is a
8 comprehensive exercise that examines the
9 school's program, facilities, curriculum,
10 operations and teacher certification to
11 ensure that the school meets the statutory
12 requirements including the educational
13 standards order.
14
15 So when you're talking about that in paragraph 17
16 you're talking about the external evaluation that
17 you've explained generally --
18 A Yes.
19 Q -- to the court; is that correct? And just to
20 give us a bit more detail, when you talk about the
21 curriculum, what are you looking at in regards to
22 the curriculum when you're doing these evaluations
23 on groups 1, 2 and 4 schools?
24 A Okay. When looking at the curriculum we determine
25 that the school is meeting the requirements of
26 that particular curriculum as identified through
27 IRPs, which are integrated resource packages,
28 curriculum documents that the Ministry produces,
29 confirming that the school in its delivery meets
30 the learning outcomes identified in that
31 curriculum.
32 The learning outcomes -- it would also need to
33 confirm that the time requirements are being met
34 for the delivery of a four credit course or a two
35 credit course, that there was sufficient planning
36 to confirm that the learning outcomes were being
37 met.
38 Q And are learning outcomes something set by the
39 Ministry?
40 A Yes, they are identified in the IRP.
41 Q And again, you said IRP stands for integrated
42 resource package?
43 A Package.
44 Q And that is a curriculum document for the schools
45 in British Columbia?
46 A Yes. Yes.
47 Q And the other one in your paragraph here I would
43
1 like you to provide more detail on is you say you

2 examined the school's program. What is involved
3 in examining the school's program?
4 A Well, it really is the educational program that
5 you're looking at, but the delivery of the
6 program, the policies that the school may have
7 with regard to assessments, anything to do with
8 delivery. We would look at that and call that
9 part of the school's program.
10 Q And these two elements, the school's program and
11 the curriculum, are they something -- they're not
12 covered in inspections for group 3 schools?
13 A Right.
14 Q Now, you mentioned too here about teacher
15 certification in paragraph 17. Can you explain
16 the types of teacher certifications that are
17 recognized by yourself as the inspector of
18 independent schools?
19 A Right. In the Independent School Act it
20 identifies that all teachers in -- teaching in a
21 group 1, 2 or 4 independent school must have BC
22 certification. All teachers must have BC
23 certification. That certification can happen in
24 two ways, one, through the BC College of Teachers,
25 which if a teacher has a certification issued by
26 the -- certificate of qualification issued by the
27 BC College of Teachers they can teach either in
28 public or in independent schools. There are also
29 a number of certificates that are issued by the --
30 our office, the office of the inspector of
31 independent schools which enable a teacher --
32 which authorize a teacher to teach in an
33 independent school only.
34 Those certification include a professional
35 certificate, which under -- which is the same as
36 the certificate issued by the BC College of
37 Teachers. It also -- we also issue a subject
38 restricted certificate, which would be a
39 certificate enabling a person to teach only a
40 particular subject under certain conditions. If
41 they had a math degree or a PhD in math then they
42 could ostensibly teach math under such a
43 certificate. Or we also issue a system restricted
44 certificate which enables a person trained in
45 Montessori or Waldorf pedagogy to teach only in
46 those kind of schools. Or we have a school and
47 subject restricted certificate which enables a
44
1 person to teach within a particular subject area,

2 what we call non-core subject, within an
3 independent school under a particular authority
4 only.
5 Q Sorry, what is a non-core subject?
6 A Non-core subject would be subjects other than
7 English, social studies, math and science.
8 Q And you talked about the system restricted
9 certificate and you gave examples of the Waldorf
10 or Montessori pedagogy or approach to teaching.
11 Would a system restricted certificate also apply
12 to a member of the FLDS or another religious
13 group?
14 A No, the only system restricted certificates that
15 we currently issue are for Montessori and Waldorf.
16 Q Now, what does a teacher need to teach in a public
17 school in British Columbia, what kind of
18 certificate?
19 A They would need a certificate from BC College of
20 Teachers.
21 Q And so is there a policy rationale behind why
22 there is a different certificate required for
23 public school teachers as opposed to independent
24 school teachers?
25 A Well, different -- the decision on offering
26 certificates through the office of the inspector
27 of independent school was made well before I came
28 to government to, as I understand it, provide some
29 flexibility and opportunity for small schools,
30 perhaps rural schools, to continue to offer an
31 educational program, say, within a subject area or
32 within a -- under some restriction. And so that
33 was identified as an opportunity or an option
34 within the Independent School Act sometime ago,
35 and the Independent School Act of course has been
36 around since 1989, I believe.
37 So the exact reason for that, I wasn't there.
38 Q Can group 1, 2 and 4 schools, if they have that
39 grouping for up to and including Grade 12, issue
40 dogwood high school diplomas?
41 A Yes, they can.
42 Q And what about group 3 schools?
43 A No, they can't. A school must have a group 1, 2
44 or 4 classification in grades 10, 11 and 12 to be
45 able to offer a dogwood certificate.
46 Q And why can't the group 3 schools issue them?
47 A Because we don't look at their educational program
45
1 and confirm that it meets the requirements of the

2 educational standards order.
3 Q Now, can I have you turn, Mr. Vanderboom, to
4 Exhibit B of your affidavit. And --
5 A It's coming.
6 Q It begins at page 17.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Handwritten on the corner. What is this?
9 A This lays out -- it's from our website. It lays
10 out the external evaluation inspection process.
11 It identifies when frequency of, everything else
12 being the same, the frequency of external
13 evaluations and the process by which this is
14 undertaken.
15 Q Do you use this as a guide in conducting external
16 evaluations and inspections?
17 A Yes, we do.
18 Q And at page 21 of this exhibit, is this a
19 checklist used for monitoring inspections of
20 group 1 and 2 independent schools?
21 A Yes, it is.
22 Q And at page 23, this is the checklist in relation
23 to group 3 schools; is that right?
24 A Yes, it is.
25 Q Now, we've heard a bit about provincial exams and
26 I'm wondering if you can tell the Court when it is
27 that a student can write a Grade 12 provincial
28 exam?
29 A Students to graduate with a dogwood diploma are
30 required to write five provincial examinations,
31 three in Grade 10 -- three at the Grade 10 level,
32 one at the Grade 11 level and one at the Grade 12
33 level. So prior to receiving a dogwood diploma
34 from the Ministry they are required to write those
35 five exams. When exactly within that three-year
36 time period when they write that exam is really
37 based on readiness, the readiness of the student
38 to write the particular exam.
39 Q So it can they write the Grade 12 exam in
40 Grade 10?
41 A Arguably, if they are ready.
42 Q And what about -- does having written a Grade 12
43 written exam prove that a student has graduated?
44 A Writing a Grade 12 provincial exam will give a
45 student a mark for the provincial examination
46 only. The graduation requirements for a dogwood
47 identify that a portion of the final mark going
46
1 towards the -- meeting the requirements of the

2 dogwood are comprised of a school mark as well as
3 an examination mark.
4 To take English 12 as an example, the school
5 portion of that final mark which appears on a
6 dogwood transcript would be -- the school portion
7 would be 60 percent and the examination portion
8 would be 40 percent. If a school is not
9 classified as a group 1, 2 or 4 school for
10 grade 10, 11 and 12 they will not have a school
11 mark to blend with an examination mark. So the
12 examination mark proves -- if the student passes
13 the examination, proves that they passed the
14 examination. The examination is based on the
15 learning outcomes of the provincial curriculum.
16 Q And does having written a Grade 12 provincial exam
17 prove a student attended Grade 12?
18 A They could have been in grade 11 when they wrote
19 the Grade 12 exam. Do you want me to repeat that?
20 Q No, sorry. Excuse me.
21 And so in order to write a provincial exam at
22 an independent school is it true that that school
23 must be a group 1, 2 or 4 school?
24 A A student -- a group 3 -- a student in a group 3
25 portion of a school could write a provincial exam
26 even if the school is not certified for that
27 grade. But again the school would receive a --
28 the school would receive a -- the student would
29 receive a transcript for the examination only.
30 Q Now, I'm going to move on to questions specific to
31 Bountiful Elementary School and in particular
32 reference to paragraphs 19 onwards in your
33 affidavit under the heading certification and --
34 "Classification and Certification of Bountiful
35 Elementary-Secondary School"?
36 A 19 and 20?
37 Q Yeah, beginning essentially at paragraph 19.
38 A Yeah.
39 Q Now, you've indicated that you've attended BESS in
40 an evaluation kind of context and have you also in
41 preparing your affidavit reviewed Ministry files
42 in relation to Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
43 School?
44 A Yes, I have.
45 Q At paragraph 19 there you refer to eight external
46 evaluations, five follow-up visits resulting from
47 evaluations, three monitoring visits and one
47
1 program evaluation. Can you briefly explain what

2 was involved in these.
3 A Well, these were inspections generated over the
4 years on account of -- well, external evaluations,
5 we've already discussed that. Those are regular
6 inspections. We do follow-up visits. After an
7 external evaluation is conducted we visit a school
8 and confirm with them that they have met the
9 requirements that are identified as requirements
10 in external evaluation. And monitoring visits, we
11 do those regularly as well. And the program
12 evaluation of course is conducted when the school
13 wishes to add grades.
14 Q Add grades or change the classification?
15 A Change classification, right.
16 Q And has BESS or Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
17 School been evaluated more than the average
18 independent school in your experience?
19 A Yes, it has. Yes, it has.
20 Q And why would that be?
21 A There were directions that we received -- that our
22 office received from the -- from the Ministry
23 and -- which indicated that there may be some
24 public concerns regarding the educational program
25 at BESS and therefore a team, or an inspector was
26 sent in to determine whether there was validity to
27 the concerns that were raised, et cetera.
28 Q And now, we know that BESS is currently -- the
29 Grades 11 and 12 are group 3; they're not 1 or 2.
30 Does that mean -- what does it mean about issuing
31 Ministry-recognized high school diplomas?
32 A We as a Ministry would not issue a dogwood diploma
33 to a student who was in a group 3 portion -- a
34 group 3 Grade 10, 11 or 12 program.
35 Q Now, in your affidavit at paragraph 20 you
36 indicate that in 2007 Bountiful
37 Elementary-Secondary School applied for a group 1
38 classification. I take it that was for Grades 11
39 and 12?
40 A Yes.
41 Q And is Exhibit C of your affidavit -- is this the
42 letter that was starting the ball rolling, so to
43 speak, as to a reclassification?
44 A Yes, it was.
45 Q So what are they seeking in this -- in August of
46 2007?
47 A They're seeking to -- to have our Ministry -- our
48
1 branch then within the Ministry review the

2 Grade 11 and 12 program to determine whether or
3 not it meets the requirements of the Independent
4 School Act as identified in the educational
5 standards order.
6 Q And were you personally involved in this
7 application by Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
8 School to have Grades 11 and 12 --
9 A Yes, I was.
10 Q -- reclassified? And what was your role?
11 A My role was to go in with another individual and
12 determine whether or not they met the requirements
13 for Grade 11 and 12 as a group 1 category.
14 Q You said "to go in." What do you mean by "to go
15 in"?
16 A Visit the school, review the program, sit in
17 classes, look at their planning, like an external
18 evaluation but for Grade 11 and 12 only.
19 Q And at Exhibit D to your affidavit this is the
20 letter that you wrote to Mr. Palmer. Principal of
21 the Bountiful elementary school?
22 A Yeah, that was the letter which was attached to
23 the copy of the program evaluation for Grade 11
24 and 12 setting out the conclusions of the program
25 evaluation.
26 Q So after you did your evaluation was Bountiful
27 Elementary-Secondary School successful in being
28 reclassified to group 1 for Grades 11 and 12?
29 A No, they were not.
30 Q And you've referred to the letter at Exhibit D and
31 you mentioned also the program evaluation report,
32 and is that what we see over the page beginning at
33 page 26 of Exhibit D?
34 A Yes, it is.
35 Q Is there somewhere in this report that summarizes
36 why BESS did not meet the requirements to be
37 reclassified?
38 A Right. Page 28 section 6 of the report identifies
39 in three bullets that -- the first bullet:
40
41 The student schedules show insufficient time
42 was allocated to meeting the instructional
43 time requirements for the four credit
44 courses, insufficient content differentiation
45 in three of the BAA courses, and thirdly,
46 insufficient course planning for review by
47 the inspection team to confirm the courses
49
1 offered in the graduation program were able

2 to meet the learning outcomes required in the
3 educational standards order.
4
5 Q And what is the BAA courses you refer to in the
6 second bullet?
7 A BAA courses are board/authority-approved courses.
8 They are courses recognized as meeting graduation
9 requirements through the Ministry either by virtue
10 of a board, board of education, public, having
11 authorized those courses and meeting requirements
12 of a template, or an authority. An authority
13 being the governing body of the independent school
14 in question.
15 Q And is there an authority in relation to the
16 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School?
17 A There is.
18 Q And what is that authority?
19 A The authority is and -- the name of the -- it's a
20 non-profit society and I believe it's the
21 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School Society but
22 I could be wrong on the official name of that.
23 It's a non-profit society anyway that is
24 identified as the authority for the school.
25 Q And do all independent schools -- are they
26 required to have an authority?
27 A Yes, group 1 and 2 schools are non-profit
28 schools -- are operated by non-profit societies.
29 Q Now, the -- on page 29 of the report there's some
30 reference to the group 1 classification for
31 Grade 10 -- in the kindergarten through Grade 10
32 program. What are these comments about?
33 A Right. So in doing a program review for Grade 11
34 and 12 we also looked at Grade 10, any aspects of
35 the Grade 10 program, because Grade 10, 11 and 12
36 form the graduation program which leads of course
37 to the graduation diploma and the dogwood. And so
38 in looking at 11 and 12 we also looked at 10 and
39 found that there were some concerns with respect
40 to course overviews at the Grade 10 level. And we
41 identified that for continued -- for continued
42 classification of the Grade 10 a number of things
43 would have to be attended to.
44 Q Now, and what happened with respect to the Grade
45 10 program?
46 A They received the letter and they attended to the
47 matters in hand and their certification -- their
50
1 classification for Grade 10 remained intact, as it

2 was before.
3 Q And Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School ever
4 apply after 2007 for reclassification of the
5 Grades 11 and 12 to a group 1 or 2 school?
6 A No, they didn't.
7 Q Now --
8 THE COURT: Are you going to be awhile yet?
9 MS. GREATHEAD: I'm going to move on to Mormon Hills,
10 My Lord, and maybe it's a good time to take the
11 lunch break.
12 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned until
13 2:00 p.m.
14
15 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)
16 (NOON RECESS)
17
18 THE CLERK: Order in court.
19
20 EDWARD VANDERBOOM, a
21 witness for the AGBC,
22 recalled.
23
24 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Greathead.
25 MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, thank you.
26
28 Q Just a few more questions, Mr. Vanderboom.
29 Now, you also in your affidavit refer to
30 Mormon Hills Elementary and Secondary School and
31 certification and classification of that school.
32 And I'm referring in particular to the -- near the
33 end of your affidavit beginning at paragraph 34;
34 do you see that?
35 A Yes.
36 Q Now, in preparing your affidavit did you also
37 review the Ministry file in relation to Mormon
38 Hills Elementary and Secondary School?
39 A Yes.
40 Q And do you know how many times that Mormons Hills
41 has undergone an external evaluation or monitoring
42 visit or program evaluation?
43 A Not off the top of my head.
44 Q You indicate in your affidavit that Mormon Hills
45 recently applied for and was granted group 1
46 certification for its Grade 11 and 12 program.
47 Can you explain what happened?
51
1 A An inspector went in to look at their Grade 11 and

2 12 program and that was in October. I believe
3 October 12th, or on around October the 12th of
4 2010, and reviewed the Grade 11/12 program and
5 determined it met the requirements of the
6 educational standards order for and as required
7 under the graduation program order.
8 Q And what was your role with respect to that
9 program evaluation, if anything?
10 A Sure. My role was to receive the evaluation
11 report and review it and make a final
12 determination with respect to clarification for
13 Grade 11 and 12.
14 Q And just a few more questions.
15 You told us a bit about the teacher
16 certificates and the different teacher
17 certificates for group 1, 2 and 4 schools versus
18 group 3 schools. This court has also heard
19 evidence about teachers teaching at Bountiful
20 Elementary-Secondary School on a letter of
21 permission. Can you tell us what a letter of
22 permission is.
23 A Letter of permission is granted to the authority
24 of an independent school enabling them to employ
25 an individual for the purposes of teaching in an
26 independent school that is certified. The
27 individual in question does not meet the
28 requirements of a -- for a professional
29 certificate or perhaps another certificate that
30 the -- might be issued by the office of the
31 inspector of independent schools, but the
32 authority deems that person to be a suitable
33 candidate for employment and they have been able
34 to demonstrate that they could not find -- through
35 advertising find somebody with the required
36 qualifications for issuing a different type of
37 certificate. So it enables the authority to use
38 that person for a one-year period.
39 Q So is it your office that issues these letters of
40 permission?
41 A Yes, it is.
42 Q And you mentioned that the authority had to show
43 that they advertised and couldn't find someone for
44 the position --
45 A Yes.
46 Q -- before a letter of permission will be issued;
47 is that right?
52
1 A Yes.
2 Q And is there any other qualifications or
3 requirements that must be met before a letter of
4 permission will be issued with respect to a person
5 teaching in a group 3 school?
6 A The -- there are some other requirements, the
7 details of which are on our website. I believe --
8 well, there's a fee involved. There's an
9 application. There's a -- I believe there's a
10 reference letter to show that the person is fit to
11 be working with children. There needs to be
12 authorization for conducting a criminal record
13 review. And the person must be a resident of
14 Canada or able to work in Canada.
15 Q And would your office check to see if this person
16 had a high school credential recognized by the
17 Ministry such as the dogwood or adult dogwood?
18 A Again I would have to defer to the website for the
19 detail. I'd have to defer to the website.
20 Q And we've heard -- my final question here is going
21 to be about group 3 schools and graduating
22 students from high school.
23 So you've already told us that a group 3
24 cannot issue a dogwood or an adult dogwood.
25 That's correct?
26 A Yes.
27 Q So if I ran a group 3 school and I met the
28 requirements of a group 3 -- that the group 3
29 classification, would it be possible for me to
30 issue the Leah Greathead high school diploma to my
31 students?
32 A Yes.
33 Q And could I issue that to my students at any time?
34 Could I give them the high school diploma in
35 Grade 6. Is there anything stopping me from doing
36 that?
37 A No.
38 Q Or Grade 8 or 10 or 11?
39 A No.
40 Q Is there any regulation of that? I take it the
41 Ministry wouldn't recognize the Leah Greathead
42 high school diploma?
43 A It would not be deemed equivalent to a dogwood
44 diploma.
45 Q Is there any regulation of it at all?
46 A No.
47 MS. GREATHEAD: Those are my questions.
53
Cross-exam by Ms. Trask
1 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross.

2 MS. TRASK: Good afternoon, Chief Justice.
3
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. TRASK:
5 Q Good afternoon Mr. Vanderboom. My name is Robin
6 Trask and I'm counsel for the British Columbia
7 Teachers Federation, and I suspect you're aware
8 that the BC Teachers Federation is the union and
9 society that represents public school teachers in
10 British Columbia and other associated
11 professionals?
12 A Yes, I am.
13 Q I have some questions for you about education and
14 curriculum in independent schools generally and
15 then I will also have some specific questions for
16 you about the inspection process in Bountiful.
17 And Chief Justice, I expect I'm going to be
18 about 30 to 40 minutes.
20 MS. TRASK:
21 Q So Mr. Vanderboom, you're aware that under the
22 School Act children between the ages of 5 and 16
23 must be enrolled in an education program?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And one of the ways that parents can comply with
26 that legislation is by enrolling their children in
27 an independent school?
28 A Yes.
29 Q And earlier, before lunch, you spoke a little bit
30 about the IRPs, the integrated resource packages
31 and curriculum and the fact that these are legally
32 required content for the provincial education
33 system and that independent schools are required
34 to teach the PLOs?
35 A Yes.
36 Q And would you agree with me that essentially the
37 PLOs, the prescribed learning outcomes, describe
38 what students are expected to know by the end of a
39 particular grade?
40 A Yes.
41 MS. TRASK: I have one PLO here that I would like you
42 to have a look at and pass up to the court. And I
43 hope this will assist in the understanding of what
44 we're talking about right now. It's a little bit
45 of an abstract concept, I think.
46 MR. DICKSON: My Lord, I'm sorry to interrupt but I
47 just rise on this point. Mr. Vanderboom is not
54
1 here as a personal experience witness. He's

2 different than other witnesses we've heard who
3 have been in Bountiful, who have left the FLDS.
4 He's more like an expert, although not tendered as
5 such, and in my respectful submission a direct
6 examination of Mr. Vanderboom should remain within
7 the confines of his affidavit. And again in my
8 respectful submission friendly cross also ought to
9 remain within the confines of that affidavit.
10 There can't, in my submission, be much doubt
11 that BCTF is taking the same position as the AG of
12 BC. This is just a friendly cross. It's another
13 opportunity at direct but without -- without the
14 benefit of the notice in the affidavit, and in my
15 respectful submission friendly cross ought to
16 remain within confines of that except for
17 clarification. It ought to touch -- it ought to
18 be right on the topics addressed in the affidavit.
19 THE COURT: Ms. Trask?
20 MS. TRASK: My Lord, as my friend noted this is not an
21 expert and Mr. Vanderboom may disagree about
22 whether this is a friendly cross or not.
23 THE COURT: He may.
24 MS. TRASK: And the purpose of what I'm getting at is I
25 want to talk about questions regarding the
26 inspections and their thoroughness, and I need to
27 lay some of the groundwork for that.
28 THE COURT: The inspections were covered in the
29 affidavit proper.
30 MS. TRASK: The inspections were, yes.
31 THE COURT: Okay. Well, go ahead and if it appears
32 that your friends have been taken by complete
33 surprise we can deal with it as we go along.
34 MS. TRASK: Thank you.
35 Q So you are familiar with the integrated resource
36 packages such as this one that I have just given
37 to you, which is the Grade 6 social studies IRP?
38 A Yes, I am.
39 Q And if you can turn to page 14 to 15 of this
40 document. This lays out the overview of
41 kindergarten to Grade 7, the PLOs for social
42 studies. Even though this document is only for
43 Grade 6, at the beginning each PLO lays out an
44 overview of the elementary school PLOs. And if
45 you see here starting in Grade 3 we have -- the
46 first skill that's listed under the PLOs is
47 critical thinking. That's the same in Grade 4,
55
1 Grade 5, Grade 6 and Grade 7. So would you agree

2 with me that critical thinking is an important
3 component of the PLOs for social studies?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And indeed an important component of education in
6 the elementary context as we see here, and also in
7 the secondary context?
8 A Yes.
9 Q If you could turn to page 30. We have the PLOs
10 here laid out in a little bit more detail for
11 Grade 6, and you will see under "governance C2" we
12 have:
13
14 Describe key characteristics of the justice
15 system in Canada. C3, assess equality and
16 fairness in Canada with reference to the
17 Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms,
18 compare countries, compare individual and
19 collective rights and responsibilities in
20 Canada with those in other countries.
21
22 And so you'd agree these are part of the PLOs
23 for the Grade 6 social studies curriculum and that
24 independent schools are required to implement
25 these?
26 A Yes.
27 Q I'll just take you to one last page in this
28 document, and that's page 42. And what we have
29 here are the suggested achievement indicators,
30 which is ways for teachers to assess if students
31 are meeting the PLOs, and look at C3 which was the
32 same PLO that we just looked at which is the
33 assessing equality and fairness in Canada with
34 reference to the Canadian Charter of Rights and
35 Freedoms. The first indicator that's listed there
36 is "describe the key provisions of the Canadian
37 Charter of Rights and Freedoms." And so you would
38 agree that this is an indicator that a teacher
39 should be able to use to assess if a student has
40 met the PLO?
41 A Well, this is a suggested achievement indicator.
42 Q Right.
43 A Whether they use that or not would be a different
44 question.
45 Q Okay. So these are the suggestions from the
46 Ministry and you could use other ways to assess if
47 the PLO is met?
56
1 A Presumably.
2 Q Okay. You can put the document aside and I'm
3 going to ask you questions sort of based on what
4 we just covered.
5 THE COURT: Do you want to mark it?
6 MS. TRASK: Yes, please. If we can mark that as an
7 exhibit.
9
10 EXHIBIT 139: 33 page double-sided p/c Social
11 Studies Grade 6 Integrated Resource Package 2006
12
13 MS. TRASK:
14 Q If someone who had completed their Grade 9
15 education, so that would be they would have
16 concluded Grade 6 and three additional years, if
17 they told you that when they were in school when
18 they learned about the Charter of Rights and
19 Freedoms only learned about religious freedom and,
20 in fact, they weren't aware that there were any
21 other rights in the Charter of Rights and
22 Freedoms. Do you think the PLO would have been
23 met in that circumstance?
24 A Well, I can't -- it's hard for me to comment on
25 that whether or not they were taught it and didn't
26 remember it or were not taught it. I couldn't
27 comment on that.
28 MR. DICKSON: I just rise here. I don't -- I don't see
29 this in the affidavit and --
30 THE COURT: No, it isn't, but it is -- it's building on
31 the inspection.
32 MS. TRASK: That's right.
33 THE COURT: And I don't recall this evidence. Was
34 this --
35 MS. TRASK: We'll take you to that in our argument. It
36 is in evidence.
37 THE COURT: Okay.
38 MS. TRASK: Truman Oler gave that --
39 THE COURT: Right. I had forgotten it. I'm going to
40 allow it, but he said it's hard to comment on it
41 so he's not able to answer your question.
42 MS. TRASK: Okay.
43 Q So I would like to ask you some questions about
44 the independent school inspections. And you've
45 already explained that you appoint the members who
46 do the evaluations. You help put together the
47 committees; is that correct?
57
1 A Yes.
2 Q And depending on the type of report being written
3 there would generally be between one and three
4 members?
5 A Depending on the size of the school and the extent
6 to which the school offers grades we would
7 determine how large the team ought to be.
8 Q Would it be -- would the team ever be larger than
9 three members?
10 A It could be three or four.
11 Q And in paragraph 19 of your affidavit you spoke
12 about Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School being
13 inspected 17 times in the time period between 1993
14 and 2010, and I'm not going to take you to all
15 those reports but I have reviewed them and I have
16 a couple of questions about the process in
17 relation to those specific reports. And I
18 understand you've reviewed them as well?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The inspections were between one and two days in
21 length?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And in the majority of these inspections, they
24 appear to be planned in advance. In other words,
25 the principal would be aware that the inspectors
26 were attending the facilities before they arrived?
27 A In most cases they likely were not. Most of
28 the -- many of the inspections were unannounced.
29 Q In the inspection reports that I reviewed I
30 only -- of those 17 reports there were only two
31 that made a specific mention to the visits being
32 unannounced; do you disagree?
33 A There could have been more that were unannounced
34 but were not identified as unannounced in the
35 report. So I could not confirm whether there were
36 two. My sense is that there likely were more that
37 were unannounced.
38 Q In general before an inspection takes place the
39 school would fill out an evaluation catalogue for
40 independent schools; is that correct?
41 A Yes.
42 Q I'm just going to provide copies of that document
43 as well. If you turn -- this is a double-sided
44 document but on the first page on the backside it
45 appears it's the principal who fills out this and
46 there's a spot for the principal's signature at
47 the bottom; that's correct?
58
1 A Yes.
2 Q And I mean, it's a substantial document which it
3 seems to me provides you with background
4 information before you complete your inspection?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And if you turn to page 5, you made some reference
7 to this this morning. This is the declaration
8 that schools need to make that they're in
9 compliance with section 1 of the schedule of the
10 Independent School Act, which requires that no
11 program is in existence or is proposed at the
12 independent school that would in theory or in
13 practice promote or foster doctrines of racial or
14 ethnic superiority or persecution, religious
15 intolerance or persecution, social change through
16 violent action or sedition, and there are other
17 requirements there, and at the end that the
18 schools establish an educational program for the
19 current school year that complies with the
20 instructional goals, time and program requirements
21 determined by the minister. And similarly at
22 page 14, somewhat related to that declaration,
23 there's a part there for the school principal to
24 fill out how many hours of instruction is
25 delivered; that's correct?
26 A Yes.
27 Q So I take it this document is important for you
28 and for the schools to make this declaration
29 because, although you go and visit the school and
30 do a one- or two-day inspection, you can't be
31 there to monitor them every day?
32 A Yes.
33 Q And so you need a declaration from the school that
34 they are complying in this manner?
35 A Yes.
36 MS. TRASK: Before the lunch break -- sorry, we're done
37 with that document. Maybe we can mark that as an
38 exhibit as well.
41
42 EXHIBIT 140: 14 page double-sided p/c
43 Instructions For Evaluation Catalogue for
44 Independent Schools for School Year 2010 - 2011
45
46 MS. TRASK:
47 Q Before the lunch break you also spoke about the
59
1 composition of the inspection committees and you

2 mentioned that the individuals who partake can be
3 administrators or teachers from the independent
4 school system or the public school system?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And I have only reviewed the -- looking at the 17
7 inspection reports that are referenced in your
8 affidavit, it appears to me that not all of the
9 inspectors list their background but many of them
10 do. They say they are principal at a particular
11 school. And it appears to me that the majority of
12 the inspectors are from the independent school
13 system. Would you agree with that?
14 A Likely.
15 Q And of the individuals who listed where they come
16 from I counted 13 inspectors who were from
17 Christian independent schools and three who were
18 from public schools. Does that sound correct to
19 you?
20 A I haven't reviewed it to that detail, but could
21 be.
22 Q But you would agree that the majority of
23 inspectors who you would send to a Christian
24 school would also be from a Christian school
25 background?
26 A Not necessarily.
27 Q Is it your recollection with regard to Bountiful
28 that that was -- that that is the inspection
29 history?
30 A No, I probably couldn't speak to that. I can --
31 first of all, the 17 visits were not all external
32 evaluations in that sense. Some of them were
33 follow-up visits, some of them were monitoring
34 inspections by the inspector. So there was a
35 whole variety within that 17. Many of the -- I've
36 been an inspector since 2009. Prior to that time
37 I was marginally involved in selecting the teams,
38 but the inspectors before me would have been
39 people who formulated those teams.
40 Q And you were -- before you were an inspector you
41 were a deputy inspector?
42 A Deputy inspector.
43 Q So perhaps just looking at the inspection reports
44 that have happened since 2005, because that would
45 be what you were most familiar with, there was an
46 inspection in 2007 that was conducted by three
47 individuals. One was Suzanne Dinwoodie. Are you
60
1 familiar with her?

2 A Yes.
3 Q She's an assistant superintendent of human
4 resources from Catholic independent schools?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Gloria Mesdiger [phonetic] who is a Sooke
7 assistant superintendent.
8 A Yes.
9 Q That would be a public school system?
10 A Right.
11 Q Tom Elwood is a retired inspector of independent
12 schools, and do you know what Tom Elwood's
13 background is?
14 A He was a former inspector of independent schools.
15 Q What did he come from an independent school?
16 A No, he was a Ministry person who came to the
17 position at some time in the past.
18 Q I see. And in 2008 there was an inspection by
19 Wilma Jamieson. Are you familiar with Wilma
20 Jamieson?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And she's from St. Andrews Regional High school
23 and that's a Christian school?
24 A Catholic school.
25 Q Catholic school. And Art Theron who is from the
26 Queen of Angels Catholic School?
27 A Yes.
28 Q And Peter --
29 A Froese.
30 Q Froese. Thank you. Who is the superintendent of
31 the MEI schools, and that's I believe the
32 Mennonite?
33 A Mennonite Educational Institute.
34 Q And the others from 2010 I think they're --
35 A Des McKay. Retired superintendent Abbotsford
36 school district.
37 Q Oh, that's correct. That's the inspection that
38 you participated in in 2010 with --
39 A No, I did a program evaluation.
40 Q Sorry, a program evaluation with --
41 A Des McKay was on the same team with Peter Froese I
42 believe.
43 Q He's not on my list. And the inspection report
44 that's attached to your affidavit -- I'm sorry,
45 that's not an inspection report. Program
46 evaluation, and you participated in that with an
47 individual who is from the public school system?
61
1 A Yes.
2 Q And the conclusion of that report was to not
3 extend --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- the group 1 classification.
6 To your knowledge during the various visits to
7 the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School did any
8 of the inspectors ever make enquiries regarding
9 whether any of the students were married?
10 A I'm not aware of whether they asked that question.
11 Q If you were aware that a Grade 9 student was
12 married to -- a female Grade 9 student was married
13 to a man in his 40s would that cause you cause for
14 concern?
15 A It would cause -- give pause for reflection and we
16 would likely need to consider what actions we
17 would need to take or what further enquiries we
18 would need to engage in.
19 Q And to your knowledge did any members of the
20 evaluation -- any of the evaluation committees
21 ever make a report to a child protection worker?
22 A I am not aware of whether they did.
23 Q So you're not aware of any --
24 A Right.
25 Q -- that did. Thank you.
26 And generally when the inspectors attend at
27 the school what I've noticed from the reports is
28 that they introduce the principals, they meet with
29 the teachers and they may sit in in classes, but
30 it doesn't appear that they have much direct
31 interaction with students. For instance, they
32 wouldn't be spending a lot of time interviewing
33 the students while they were doing the inspection;
34 is that correct?
35 A Some cases there may be some conversation with
36 students.
37 Q So there may be some conversation in passing?
38 A Sure.
39 Q But not scheduled interviews?
40 A The focus of the inspection is as indicated.
41 Q And are you aware that last year at the end of the
42 school year public school systems across the
43 province laid off a lot of teachers? There were a
44 lot of unemployed and underemployed teachers at
45 the end of last school year?
46 A Yes.
47 Q And the letter of permission that your office can
62
1 grant needs to be reviewed -- or it needs to be

2 renewed annually?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And you've already noted that there -- the
5 authority has to demonstrate that they have made
6 repeated local and province-wide advertising in a
7 publication likely to reach potential candidates
8 and has failed to attract a suitable teacher
9 holding a valid BC teachers certificate?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And the evidence in this proceeding is that there
12 is at least one teacher in Bountiful who is on a
13 letter of permission, and are you aware whether
14 the authority complied with the obligation to
15 advertise for a suitable teacher?
16 A They would have.
17 Q I'm not sure if you were in the courtroom this
18 morning when there was some -- there was some
19 questions around the foundation skills
20 assessments. You're aware of the foundation
21 skills assessments?
22 A I am aware of them.
23 Q And you're aware generally that there is
24 controversy around the foundation skills
25 assessments?
26 A Yes.
27 THE COURT: Well, are we fighting other battles here,
28 or potential battles? Out of work public school
29 teachers. Controversial --
30 MR. JONES: Can you order her to only do friendly
31 cross.
32 THE COURT: Or controversial FSA issues?
33 MS. TRASK: My Lordship, we hadn't given notice to
34 cross-examine Mr. Munro this morning and the
35 foundation skills assessment information was
36 brought into evidence, and Mr. Vanderboom is an
37 educator and I thought he might be able to speak
38 to it, but I can move on.
39 THE COURT: Go ahead. Go ahead.
40 MS. TRASK:
41 Q So you are -- you're aware generally there's
42 controversy around the FSAs and around the results
43 and use of the FSAs?
44 A Yes.
45 Q And that there's controversy around high stakes
46 testing in general?
47 A Yes.
63
1 THE COURT: High stakes testing?

2 MS. TRASK:
3 Q Can you describe high stakes testing or I can --
4 A Maybe since you asked the question you can
5 describe what you mean by that.
6 Q High stakes testing meaning testing where there is
7 something that rides on the testing such as
8 funding, or some people have described the Fraser
9 Institute ranking as making the foundation skills
10 testing high stakes testing.
11 A So the question is then?
12 Q Are you familiar with the controversy around high
13 stakes testing in general, and maybe I can ask you
14 something more specific. There has been a lot of
15 controversy around high stakes testing and
16 cheating on testing where there's a lot riding on
17 the results. Are you aware of that?
18 A I'm aware that there is public debate around FSA
19 results. I'm aware that some schools and parents
20 put a lot of weight on FSA scores and others
21 don't. Whether that's considered high stakes or
22 not, I don't know. I couldn't speak to that. It
23 depends on the school. It depends on their
24 values. It depends on how important they would
25 consider those tests to be. So I couldn't speak
26 to that part of it.
27 Q Okay. And you said that you became the deputy
28 inspector in 2005 and before that you were the
29 principal at Credo Christian High School in
30 Langley; is that correct?
31 A Yes.
32 Q From 1981 until 2005?
33 A Yes.
34 Q Does that sound right? And when you were the
35 principal there you oversaw a school newsletter;
36 is that correct?
37 A Yes.
38 Q And you would write a piece of commentary on the
39 first page of the newsletter?
40 A Frequently.
41 Q And that newsletter would go home to parents with
42 students?
43 A Yes.
44 Q And did the newsletter go home in a sealed
45 envelope or was it just handed out and students
46 would fold it up and put it in their backpacks?
47 A It didn't generally wouldn't go home with
64
1 students. It would be circulated through other

2 community networks.
3 Q So it wasn't handed out to students?
4 A No, actually it wasn't. It went to -- it was
5 handed out in church communities where the parents
6 of the church communities would be the parents who
7 sent their children to the school.
8 Q I see. Were students expected to read the
9 newsletter?
10 A If they wished to.
11 THE COURT: Now, just before we give it to the witness,
12 Mr. Dickson's point is getting better and better.
13 MS. TRASK: This is my last area of questioning and it
14 goes to credibility, My Lord.
15 THE COURT: Oh. Credibility? Okay. Well ...
16 MR. DICKSON: I have to say that my friend's point that
17 this cross is not so friendly is getting better
18 and better as well.
19 THE COURT: Everyone is learning something today.
20 MR. DICKSON: Very educational.
21 THE COURT: I'm learning that I couldn't pass the Grade
22 6 social studies. It's tough stuff.
23 MS. TRASK: That's why we have that show "Smarter than
24 a Fifth Grader"; right?
25 Q So do you recognize this as an article that you
26 wrote for the school newsletter?
27 A Yes.
28 Q And you could see this was in February 2005, so I
29 guess shortly before you left the school as
30 principal. So if you look at the fourth paragraph
31 here it says:
32
33 Some point to the introduction of the Charter
34 as the time when things really started to
35 fall apart with Canadian society. Perhaps
36 they are right. Hindsight has a way of
37 bringing the past into focus.
38
39 And then down below you seem to be talking about
40 sexual orientation and the curriculum. So when
41 you are talking here about the Canadian society
42 falling apart you are referring to case law that
43 recognized rights of certain groups, particularly
44 sexual orientation case law; is that correct?
45 A Probably not case law. I don't avail myself of
46 case law generally.
47 Q So were you referring to claims that individuals
65
1 would have made that they had particular Charter

2 rights?
3 A Maybe you could rephrase or back up -- back me up
4 a little bit here.
5 Q Sure.
6 A Your specific question is?
7 Q When are you referring to Canadian society, the
8 introduction of the Charter is the time when
9 Canadian society started to fall apart, the rest
10 of the article seems to be about sexual
11 orientation and curriculum. So when you refer to
12 the introduction of the Charter as the time when
13 things really started to fall apart with Canadian
14 society are you referring to the assertion of
15 rights around sexual orientation?
16 A Well, I am saying some point to the introduction
17 of the Charter as the time, so I am raising this
18 as a point of conversation and discussion.
19 Whether -- whether I believe that to be true or
20 not is quite another matter.
21 Q Right. Although you say "perhaps they are right.
22 Hindsight has a way of bringing the past into
23 focus"?
24 A Sure. Perhaps.
25 Q So upon reflection do you think this is an
26 appropriate newsletters for an independent school
27 principal to be sending out?
28 A Well, I would have to read it again to answer this
29 yes or no. I wrote this in 2005. Whether I would
30 still believe this to be true or whether I would
31 write this in a different way is a matter that
32 would require further reflection on my part.
33 Q So perhaps your view has changed since 2005?
34 A Perhaps.
35 MS. TRASK: Could we have this marked as an exhibit,
36 My Lord.
37 THE COURT: Yes.
39
40 EXHIBIT 141: 3 page double-sided p/c Newsletter
41 of Credo Christian High School dated February 6,
42 2005
43
44 MS. TRASK: Those are all of my questions.
45 THE COURT: Thank you. Any of the parties that passed
46 on cross-examination have the right to pursue it
47 if they wish, if there was anything in that that
66
1 exercised them. No? Thank you. I'm giving the

2 opportunity of people who passed on cross to ask
3 questions if they wished. Hearing none,
4 Ms. Greathead, any redirect?
5 MR. JONES: I see --
6 THE COURT: I beg your pardon. Mr. Siren?
7 MR. SIREN: Yes. There will be further cross. I
8 understand there will be further friendly cross
9 tomorrow morning so perhaps it's best if I go
10 after that.
11 MR. JONES: Well, I'm battling with the definition of
12 friendly cross, My Lord, but we expected the BCTF
13 and the Asper Centre to be unfriendly, certainly
14 on the issues that they want to cross-examine on.
15 I don't think we're on the same side at all.
16 Because of counsel scheduling we put
17 Mr. Vanderboom to go over into the morning just to
18 accommodate the Asper Centre. I honestly don't
19 think there's any prejudice to my friends in
20 having Mr. Siren proceed today and then just using
21 that half an hour in the morning so that we free
22 up the rest of the day for Mr. Klette. And
23 perhaps they could be given leave to --
24 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Siren may not have prepared.
25 MR. SIREN: No, I am prepared. I'm under the
26 understanding that real cross has gone after the
27 friendly cross in this proceeding, although I
28 haven't been here. But I'm happy to go now
29 although my preference would be probably to go
30 after the friendly cross. But I'm in your hands,
31 My Lord.
32 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dickson, did you have anything to
33 say?
34 MR. DICKSON: Well, it may be that the issue could be
35 addressed by leave to Mr. Siren to ask further
36 questions after, but I do support the notion
37 that -- I mean, we know which side people are on
38 generally. I don't know what Mr. Olthuis is going
39 to ask tomorrow. I didn't know what Ms. Trask was
40 going to ask here today clearly. And we did adopt
41 the practice that -- sort of partway through we
42 adopted the practice that people on the same side
43 would have to go before the opposite side.
44 THE COURT: Well, in the interests of using the time
45 efficiently, though, I would ask, Mr. Siren, if
46 you would, and we'll give you the right as
47 Mr. Dickson suggested to supplement any cross you
67
1 have after you have heard from Mr. Olthuis

2 tomorrow.
3
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SIREN:
5 Q Mr. Vanderboom, you briefly discussed provincial
6 exams in direct. Students who are eligible to
7 receive a dogwood are required to write five
8 provincial exams; is that correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right. And are these five provincial exams
11 Language Arts 10, Language Arts 12, Science 10,
12 Math 10 and Social Studies 11?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, is there a distinction between a course
15 entitled Communications 12 and English 12?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And what is that distinction?
18 A Generally the English 12 learning outcomes are
19 more suited for those who require a higher level
20 of English language competency and would wish to
21 proceed on the basis of having received that to a
22 university which requires English 12 as opposed to
23 Communications 11. It's really a higher level
24 course.
25 Q Do either though, and when I say either I mean
26 Communications 12 or English 12, meet the
27 requirements a Language Arts 12?
28 A Yes.
29 Q I'm hoping we can show Mr. Vanderboom Exhibit 137,
30 Madam Clerk. We looked at this exhibit earlier in
31 the day today, and you'll notice again there's
32 some highlighting and then I've put some numbers
33 in there and they have individual PEN numbers and
34 corresponding provincial exam marks. Do you see
35 that, Mr. Vanderboom?
36 A Yes.
37 Q All right. And so if we were to take the first
38 student, number 1, let's say, and the PEN is
39 ending with a 966. Do you see that?
40 A Yes.
41 Q And we scroll across and this student has
42 completed Science 10, or the province exam for
43 Science 10; is that right?
44 A Yes.
45 Q And the same with Math 10, English 10 and
46 Communications 12?
47 A Yes.
68
1 Q And then English 12, which looks like the person

2 did not pass, and then Social Studies 11?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So this student would have met the requirements
5 for the provincial exams as per the Ministry's
6 requirements?
7 A They would have -- this tells me that they wrote
8 the exams for those subjects listed and from a
9 review of the marks it looks like the examination
10 was passed in every case.
11 Q Okay. And just to be clear, these are the
12 essential -- these are the five essential courses
13 that any student who hopes to obtain a dogwood
14 would need to pass in order to obtain a dogwood;
15 is that right?
16 A Right. But it's not exhaustive of the dogwood.
17 Q No, there are other requirements of the dogwood.
18 A Fair enough.
19 Q But this is -- it's necessary but not sufficient?
20 A Yes.
21 Q All right. So if we were to spend our time, and
22 we won't go through it now, but if we were to look
23 through each PEN number and if they had the five
24 courses again that would be necessary for the
25 dogwood. And that would indicate that these
26 students have completed one step that is necessary
27 in order to obtain a dogwood from BC?
28 A Again, necessary not sufficient.
29 Q Yes. There's been some talk -- you can put that
30 down. Thank you very much.
31 There's been some talk about the FSA again.
32 Just over the break I printed off a page from the
33 Ministry and I'm hoping you can confirm that this
34 is the Ministry document on the Ministry website.
35 I seem to have given away my copy. One second.
36 And so this is on the Ministry website; is
37 that correct?
38 A Looks like it, yes.
39 Q All right. And there are just three paragraphs
40 and it goes over -- for instance, the third
41 paragraph discusses which grades write the exam,
42 and that's correct? Grade 4s and 7s?
43 A Yes.
44 Q And it talks about that it's a province-wide
45 assessment; that's correct?
46 A Yes.
47 Q And it provides a snapshot of how well BC students
69
1 are learning foundation skills in reading,

2 comprehension and numeracy. Sorry, I phrased that
3 very poorly. Three skills are reading
4 comprehension, writing and numeracy?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And the main purpose of the assessment is to help
7 provide -- or to help province school districts,
8 schools and school planning councils evaluate how
9 well students are achieving basic skills?
10 A Yes.
11 MR. SIREN: My Lord, could we have this marked as the
12 next exhibit.
14
15 EXHIBIT 142: 1 page p/c document from the BC
16 Ministry of Education titled "Foundation Skills
17 Assessment (FSA)" dated 2/8/2011 at bottom right
18 corner
19
20 MR. SIREN:
21 Q There's also some talk earlier today about the
22 inspections that you participated in, or other
23 people at the Ministry have participated in, in
24 regard to BESS. And when I say BESS I'm talking
25 about Bountiful; correct?
26 A Yes.
27 Q All right. And in direct you mentioned that BESS
28 had undergone more inspections than is required by
29 law; is that right?
30 A I'm not sure that we said that.
31 Q All right.
32 A More inspections than other schools might have
33 had.
34 Q Okay. And there are, as I understand it from
35 reading through your affidavit, basic requirements
36 for how often the Ministry must inspect
37 independent curriculum schools; is that correct?
38 A There's a minimum requirement with respect to
39 inspections. There's not a maximum requirement.
40 Q Correct. And in this case I understood, and I
41 could be wrong, that the inspections had far
42 exceeded that number; is that right?
43 A Yes.
44 Q And in the past 18 years of inspections of BESS,
45 for both group 1 for the grades that are relevant
46 and for group 3 Grades 11 and 12, BESS has
47 consistently met the statutory requirements?
70
1 A It's -- yes. Now, let me -- let me maybe rephrase

2 that. When we go in and do an inspection we may
3 identify some things that the school needs to do
4 to ensure that it remains in compliance and there
5 might be a statutory item which the school is
6 given some time to address. Usually the statutory
7 items are, we say address them by December the
8 15th of the current year and then the school
9 always does.
10 Q And so in this case BESS has always done that?
11 A Yes, yeah.
12 Q Are group 3 schools required to have BC certified
13 teachers?
14 A No.
15 Q And I understand that the instructional -- the
16 number of hours that must be provided by schools
17 other than group 3 schools is 850; is that right?
18 A Yes. Overall.
19 Q Now, are group 3 schools required to provide that
20 number of hours?
21 A No. 850 -- also for seniors -- for a graduation
22 program means a minimum of 100 hours per 4 credit
23 course.
24 Q Okay. In 2007 BESS applied to the Ministry, and
25 we have discussed this or you discussed this
26 earlier, to have its Grade 11, 12 class classified
27 as a group 1 school, and you participated in that
28 inspection; is that correct?
29 A Yes.
30 Q And the visit in this case was unannounced?
31 A Yes.
32 Q And upon inspection the Ministry learned that all
33 of the teachers who would teach in Grades 11 and
34 12 were BC certified teachers; is that correct?
35 A I believe so. I don't have it in front of me.
36 But should I --
37 Q Sure. Let's go to your exhibit, sir. Go to
38 Exhibit D, page 26.
39 A Yes.
40 Q And under paragraph 3 it says:
41
42 There are currently four teachers who
43 participate in offering instruction for
44 students in Grades 11 and 12. All of the
45 teachers are BC certified and have
46 satisfactory criminal record checks.
47
71
1 A Yes.
2 Q And the provincial exam scores written by BESS
3 students in Social Studies 11, Math 10, English 10
4 were considerably higher than the province
5 average; is that correct?
6 A I haven't reviewed those.
7 Q Perhaps you could turn to page 28 of your
8 affidavit. And it's one, two, three, four, five
9 paragraphs down and I will read it aloud.
10
11 As a group 3 school students have written
12 provincial examination in Social Studies 11,
13 Essentials of Math 10, English 10, and
14 Principles of Math 10 during the last
15 academic year. While group 3 schools are
16 unable to award a school mark the inspection
17 team noted that average exam scores for all
18 of these course were considerably higher than
19 the province exam scores.
20
21 A You're correct. I did view them at that time. My
22 question -- your question was in my mind more in
23 general terms whether I would have noticed this.
24 But indeed I did look at that and did note that at
25 that time.
26 Q I will take you to page 27, and this has to do
27 with the instructional hours. And six down, so
28 the second paragraph under "Educational Program."
29 It says?
30
31 Instruction for Grades 10 to 12 at BESS
32 starts at 8:25 a.m. and finishes at 3 p.m.
33 over a four-day week and continues from the
34 beginning of September until the end of May.
35 During each day there are seven 55-minute
36 periods, there 146 instructional days over
37 the year.
38
39 I have done the math and it looks like there's
40 936 hours provided, and if I'm correct in doing
41 the math that exceeds the Ministry's requirements;
42 is that right?
43 A For overall time, yes.
44 Q And again, a group 3 school isn't even required to
45 meet those requirements; is that right?
46 A Right.
47 Q Finally I want to turn your attention to
72
1 paragraph 29 of your affidavit, sir. And in this

2 case you're referring to Exhibit I and if you want
3 to look at Exhibit I in Mr. Munro's affidavit it's
4 the same. Exhibit I is on page 81 and it shows
5 the head counts for Bountiful Elementary-Secondary
6 School starting in '02 and going to last year.
7 And do you have that graph, sir?
8 A I have page 81.
9 Q All right. And I call it a graph, and it appears
10 as though there are fewer students in each
11 successive year. And you have noted the totals in
12 paragraph 29 being 59 in Grade 10, 40 in Grade 11
13 and 11 in Grade 12.
14 Now you don't have any personal knowledge as
15 to why there fewer students?
16 A No.
17 Q And there are a number of reasons why there may be
18 fewer students; correct?
19 A Likely.
20 Q So a student, of course, could drop out of school?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And they could transfer in from another school in
23 which case it would appear higher the following
24 year; is that right?
25 A Could.
26 Q And if they transferred out of this school and
27 attended Mormon Hills it would look like there's
28 one less student?
29 A Yes.
30 Q And if a student were to graduate early after
31 attending Grade 11 it would look as though they
32 didn't attend Grade 12; is that right?
33 A Could, yes.
34 Q And you can't determine by looking at this graph
35 what the cause is --
36 A No.
37 Q -- in this reduction. And finally with respect to
38 secondary ungraded students you'll notice there
39 are five on page 81. We have heard some evidence
40 about secondary ungraded students and I understand
41 that to be if a student isn't in an actual grade
42 itself, he might be taking courses from Grade 10
43 and Grade 11 at once for example; is that right?
44 A Yes.
45 Q And this could be because of cognitive limitations
46 or other reasons; is that right?
47 A Yes.
73
1 Q And these students still can graduate; is that

2 right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q So in this case these five students could
5 graduate; is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 Q All right. And that wouldn't be reflected in this
8 graph of course?
9 A Yeah. I can't speak to the graph. I didn't
10 compose it so ...
11 MR. SIREN: Thank you. Those are my questions.
12 THE COURT: Thank you. So sorry, I didn't realize that
13 Mr. Olthuis wasn't going to be here today. So
14 we're --
15 MS. GREATHEAD: We're finished for today, My Lord.
16 THE COURT: We're adjourning today then?
17 MR. JONES: One small matter of evidence if I may speak
18 to it, My Lord. We've been, as you know, just
19 trying through the course of this week trying to
20 tidy up some exhibits and whatnot. The only thing
21 we need to deal with --
22 THE COURT: Mr. Vanderboom, you're welcome to leave any
23 time.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 MR. JONES: I beg your pardon. The only thing we need
26 to deal with today or that would be useful to deal
27 with today is to submit to the court the actual
28 birth registration records that are referred to in
29 Mr. Klette's affidavit. And Mr. Klette's
30 affidavit number 2 has been filed but apparently
31 hasn't worked its way through so we would propose
32 prior to his testimony tomorrow we should be able
33 to enter that formally as an exhibit. But for
34 today we would like to submit the sealed --
36 MR. JONES: -- records and they are there with the copy
37 of the order that Your Lordship signed. And then
38 the --
39 THE COURT: So 143 then, collectively?
41
42 EXHIBIT 143: Contained in a brown envelope with a
43 while label is 99 page document held with a
44 two-prong clip titled "Certified Copies of 85 Teen
45 Birth Registration Records..."; contains copies
46 and certified true copies.
47 [SEALED pursuant to Order of Chief Justice Bauman
74
Certification
1 dated Jan 28, 2011]

2
3 MR. JONES: And then the remaining affidavits we'll
4 deal with tomorrow, My Lord. There's been one
5 thing that I've been discussing with my friends,
6 the Isbister 4 affidavit which is supplementary
7 Brandeis brief materials.
8 THE COURT: Right.
9 MR. JONES: My friends have indicated a concern that we
10 were under inclusive with respect to that and so
11 they are going to be preparing another affidavit
12 tomorrow attaching some additional materials, to
13 which we have no objection. But we'll put all
14 that in together tomorrow.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. Anything else?
16 MR. DICKSON: No, My Lord.
17 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
18 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned to
19 Wednesday February 9th, 2011 at 10 a.m.
20
21 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3 P.M.)
22
23 I, Spencer J. Charest, Official Reporter
24 in the Province of British Columbia, Canada,
25 do hereby certify:
26
27 That the proceedings were taken down by
28 me in shorthand at the time and place herein
29 set forth and thereafter transcribed, and the
30 same is a true and correct and complete
31 transcript of said proceedings to the best of
32 my skill and ability.
33
34 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto
35 subscribed my name this 1st day of March
36 2011.
37
38
39
40 ______________________
41 Spencer J. Charest
42 Official Reporter
43
44
45
46
47

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1

1 heads up, if you like, and if counsel could get

1 affidavit I've given you is a copy of the

1 A Sure. It's a personal education number. Every

1 more details and take you to your exhibits and get

1 seven female students in Grade 8 for the first

1 representation of the data for Exhibit A.

1 students who were home schooled?

1 furthest column on the right-hand side you see the

1 Q And what was the significance of picking schools

1 information say, okay, are they still in the

1 of procedures for the graduation program. It's

1 A That's right, and secondary ungraded.

1 Q And if a student transferred out from BESS to any

1 it takes a base year in Grade 8 for a variety of

1 indicate that; is that right?

1 education numbers and asked for the registration

1 THE CLERK: Exhibit 136, My Lord.

1 community to go to another school.

1 income level for any of these different areas; is

1 problem we have with H and the same problem with

1 A You could, yes.

1 Q You'll see that there's a Grade 4 average score

1 Q Okay. I'm going to make a request that on the

1 wish to have their children attend a public

1 requirements for facilities. It must meet safety

1 Q And have you been there?

1 they did have to meet the educational programs

1 in October of 2010 at which time it was determined

1 group 3. The following year, '08/09, they have 1

1 that, and it provides also step-by-step

1 monitoring inspections. Is a monitoring

1 turn to paragraph 17 of your affidavit. And

1 like you to provide more detail on is you say you

1 person to teach within a particular subject area,

1 and confirm that it meets the requirements of the

1 towards the -- meeting the requirements of the

1 program evaluation. Can you briefly explain what

1 branch then within the Ministry review the

1 offered in the graduation program were able

1 classification for Grade 10 remained intact, as it

1 A An inspector went in to look at their Grade 11 and

1 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross.

1 here as a personal experience witness. He's

1 Grade 5, Grade 6 and Grade 7. So would you agree

1 composition of the inspection committees and you

1 familiar with her?

1 grant needs to be reviewed -- or it needs to be

1 THE COURT: High stakes testing?

1 students. It would be circulated through other

1 would have made that they had particular Charter

1 exercised them. No? Thank you. I'm giving the

1 have after you have heard from Mr. Olthuis

1 Q And then English 12, which looks like the person

1 are learning foundation skills in reading,

1 A It's -- yes. Now, let me -- let me maybe rephrase

1 paragraph 29 of your affidavit, sir. And in this

1 Q And these students still can graduate; is that

1 dated Jan 28, 2011]

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