Reb Chaim Halpern gave divrei p‟seicha on behalf of the Union.

He opened by
quoting the Chinuch on “shoftim v‟shotrim tiken l‟cho b‟chol sheorecho, that there is
a Chiuv on every town to set up a Beis Din.
He then brought the Choshen Mishpot describing the responsibilities of a Beis Din,
namely, Kashrus, Mikvaos, Botei Chaim, Pesach, and personal problems etc including
setting boundaries.
RC then continued bringing the mekoros of how to set up a town executive, whether
that is via elections or appointed by the Beis Din, etc. This town executive has to
work together with the Beis Din.

RC then described that amongst the responsibilities of the Union BD is that 9 of the
10 Dayonim sit together every Thursday night and discuss the issues and shailos that
have arisen and that every issue and question is discussed at length.
Reb Chaim said that many questions are asked by laymen of the community. He
explained to answer each of these questions a vast knowledge of Halocho is needed
which a layman cannot have and that the Dayonim use their knowledge to discuss and
decide upon the psak for each issue.

RC then set out one of the most basic tenets of the Union Beis Din. That being that
not one of the Dayonim has “any personal benefit” in any way or of any hechsher
given to any establishment and do not even take an interest or know of any financial
matters.

RC then tackled the issue of how a “kehilla” is defined. He brought the Shulchan
Oruch where it is stated that a kehilla is defined simply by the Burial Society that one
belongs to. IE that whoever wants to be buried in a Beis HaChaim run by a certain
kehilla is part of that Kehilla and has to adhere to every single thing that the Dayonim
of that Beis Din say.

RC then tackles the issue of “Shechutei Chutz”. He brought the Yorei Deoh where
many achronim, including the Chasam Sofer, the Taz and even here in England in the
recent past from Dayan Weiss, the Michas Yitzchok, that agree that any shechita that
is not the shechita of that Kehilla is considered Shechutei Chutz.

RC then said that every Kehilla has its own Chumros and went on to describe a few
Chumros that only the Union and Machzikei Hadass Manchester & Antwerp are
makpid on and for that reason, every member of a Kehilla may only buy meat from
his own Kehilla.

RC then laid out how the Union, from the outset was set up for both Golders Green
and Stamford Hill. How his father Reb Elchonon Halpern shlita is the Nosi of the
Union and is intrinsically involved in all matters of the Union and how important it is
that the Rabbonim of GG & SH can and do work together as one Kehilla.

RC then gave his divrie brocho and gave over the chair to the Chairman, Mr Mordy
Vorhand.
From here on in the report will be in Q & A format as was the case at the time.

MV (Chairman, Mr M Vorhand)
MOA (member of Audience)
MP (member of Panel)

Q: MV: Where does the income of the Union come from?

Mr Dovid Frand. The income of the Union is made up of 3 parts. Kedassia, the
AYBS and the membership of the Union. There are approx 90 shuls registered as
members, approx 2/3rds from Stamford Hill and 1/3rd from NW London. The
representatives of these shuls meet twice a year. There are also audited accounts
drawn up.

Q: MV: There is a dire lack of Morei Hoiro‟oh here in NW London for shailos that
need to be asked in person. Will the Union arrange for there to be one of the Morei
Hoiro‟oh to be available for 1-2 hours a day to answer shailos?
Mr Dovid Frand. The Union has not yet done this. The Union did set up a Beis
Hoiro‟oh for general shailos in NW London which was unsuccessful as it was
underused. (Point disputed by MOA). We definitely might be willing to set this is
place for 1-2 hours a day.

Q: MV: Can you confirm that the main income of the Union to pay the Rabbinate is
from Kedassia? How many of the Rabbinate are on the payroll?
Mr Dovid Frand: There are 8 of the Rabbinate on the payroll.
Mr Shloime Sinitsky: there are 12.

Q: MV: Can you explain why there are 8 Rabbonim on the payroll to serve a Kehilla
of 2,500 when the LBD have 3.5 Dayonim to serve a much larger amount and also
deal with Mamzerus, Geirus and other world issues which the Union do not deal with.
Mr Dovid Frand. There are certain daily Shailos which are asked by our members
but not unfortunately by the majority of LBD members which need to be answered. In
fact our Beis Horo‟oh which is open in SH 8 hours a day and is in constant use.
MOA: These 8 Rabbonim are for Stamford Hill not NW London?
MOA: Surely it is the responsibility of the Rov of each shul to answer his
congregant‟s shailos
Mr Dovid Frand: There are many shuls whose Rov is not qualified to answer such
Shailos.
Mr Shloime Sinintsky. As Dayan Friedman and Dayan Grynhaus can confirm, a
large proportion of the shialos asked over the phone to the Beis Horo‟oh come from
NW London.
Q: MV: Through my research I understand that the income of the AYBS is approx
£250,000 per annum. Is that correct?
Mr J Lobenstien. Yes that is correct. Our expenses are made up on cemetery staff,
the office and particularly of transport as each levayo cost about £500-600
MV: Mr Mannes confirmed in the region of £300 for each levayoh.
Mr J Lobenstien. There are ongoing improvements to the cemeteries. For example,
the new wall around Enfield cost about £700,000 of which our costs were £180,000.
We also resurfaced the driveway which costs £135,000 due to using proper architects
and professional people and no money is squandered..
Furthermore there are expenditure which are not regular. For example with drainage
in both Enfield in the last few years cost us £40,000. Furthermore, despite three
experts in soil checking Cheshunt before purchase we have drainage problems there
too.
MOA: The amounts mentioned by Mr Lobenstien do not amount to much more than
one year‟s income? What about the decades of income that have not been accounted
for.
MV: Is there a marriage between the AYBS and the Union? What percentage of the
income from the AYBS go to the Union?
Mr J Lobenstien: 45% of the net profits goes to the Union. In previous years it has
been £40,000. Last year it was £15,000 and this year we have already paid out
£10,000 to the Union.

Q: MV: Mr Frand, It is common knowledge that in previous years Hasmonean have

been beneficiaries of the Union as set up by Dr Schonfeld. Id this continuing or are
there any mosdos that currently receive funds.
Mr Dovid Frand. No school currently received funds regularly from the Union.
There have been grants distributed from time to time. Here in Golders Green we have
given a grant to the Tiferes Shlome funfair of £1000. We also give grants to Beis
Brucha.

Q: MV. Because we are in the process of preparing to build our own full Mikva in the
shul grounds, would the Union be prepared to give a grant towards it?
Mr Frand. The Union see Mikvaos as one of the biggest priorities and would be
prepared to give grants to Mikvaos across London. The Union gave a grant of £50,000
over three years to the new Mikva on Hoop Lane. We were the only Kehilla who gave
any grant towards it.IY‟H we would be prepared to give a grant to your mikva.
Mr Lobenstien. The AYBS has also given various loans to the NW London Mikva
and will continue to do so.

Q: MV: Do the Rabbonite and the Union not see it as their Achrayos to try to reduce
the chicken and meat costs? When Mr Sinitsky came last time he welcomed how the
new milk reduced the cost of a bottle of milk. The Union seem to have no
responsibility in reducing the costs of staples.
Mr Sinitsky (in response to MOA). Kosher Deli sell whole chickens at a reduced rate
simply to attract customers. If you compare the costs of other items there or the prices
in any other LBD butcher the prices are similar to ours. Our chickens are slightly
higher wholesale due to the checking of Tzumos Hagidin, the slower pace of Shechita
etc.
MV: Is the Union interested in reducing costs. For example, one Moisod in Gateshead
shechted for themselves in Poland and reduced their own costs considerably. Would
the Union consider this?
Mr Sinitsky. We have started procedures to ascertain if going to Poland or elsewhere
would be considerably cheaper. I must stress that Kedassia do not set the prices in the
shops.
Mr Eckstien (MOA). I can confirm that I check my prices with LBD ones every
week. We are at comparable with the LBD butchers on chickens and cheaper on beef
to the extent that some LBD restaurants buy beef from me.
MOA: Westheim meat is much cheaper.
Mr Sinitsky: I would only compare with Kehilla Shechitas, not individual ones
without the costs of a Rabbinate etc. In Manchester for example, the wholesale price
for MH chicken is higher than ours.

MOA: You very aptly explained how your prices are comparable to other Botei Din
etc. But you didn‟t address the basic point that prices need to be reduced.
Mr Sinitsky. The prices are set by the shops. But as we showed, our wholesale price
is comparable to other shechitas as , obviously there are overheads.
MOA: Mr Sinitsky, you said to me after the last meeting that Rav Padwa said that the
shochtim cannot be under pressure, are the same Shochtim constantly, sleep in their
own beds at night. How now can you say that you might agree to fly them to Poland.
Mr Sinitsky. I didn‟t say that our Shochtim won‟t fly abroad. Our shochtim do work
not under pressure. For example, we shecht 600 birds an hour compared to 1100-1200
by the London board of Shechita. We are exploring the costs of shechting in Poland
but are not at that stage yet.
Dayan Grynhaus: Anyone from around the world who has ever visited the Kedassia
Shechita have been impressed by the relaxed atmosphere and that the Shochtim are in
charge. This is not the case elsewhere. The rabbinate are not involved or interested in
costs but we would never change anything or move anywhere else where the
Shochtim would not be in charge. We are prepared to look at moving if there would
be a considerable reduction in charge but under no circumstances would the
Rabbinate even consider reducing the level of the Kashrus in order to save money.

Q: MV: We understand that the Union shecht in an abattoir where they are then sent
to a company called munch meat. All invoices are sent by Kedassia. Does this mean
that Kedassia have a mark-up?
Mr Sinitsky. Kedassia have a small mark-up to cover the Shochtim, Hashgocha fee
and administration.
MOA: Reb Chaim Halpern told me last week that under no circumstance would the
Rabbinate allow the shochtim to go out to Poland to shecht.
Mr Sinitsky: Reb Chaim discussed this idea two weeks ago with me and he didn‟t
express that view.
Mr Frand. The question has been asked many times how Kedassia can be the
wholesaler as well. When the abattoir was not owned by Kedassia there was
reluctance on the part of the owner to making any changes or Hidurim. This obviously
is not the case anymore and the hidurim have increased massively. The kashrus is run
by the Rabbinate who do not involved themselves in the costs and so are free to set
any hidurim and changes without it effecting their ownership.

MOA: How can Eckstien sell his meat in Antwerp.

Mr Eckstien (MOA) Before I did this, the question was asked to the Rabbonim of
Antwerp exactly what I may and may not sell there. I do not sell any fresh meat in
Antwerp because of this, only worsht (cold cuts/salami), sausages etc which they need.

MOA: We are getting off the point. Reb Moshe Halpern put together this session to
explain what Golders Green gets from the Union.

Q: MV: What hashgocha does our bakeries here in NW London have and who are the
shomrim? Is it true that goyim take challoh?
Dayan Grynhaus: The Rabbinate set the levels of Hashgocha for each establishment
according to its individual requirements. One of the purposes of the Yotsei V‟nichnus
is to make the Bal Habos “mirsus” (scared). Obviously we cannot say or set times for
the bakeries to be visited as that would erode that. The mashgichim are …… and on
average each establishment 2-3 times a day.
I can give you a shiur on taking challoh. There are two parts to Challah. The
separation and the „kvass shem challoh‟ In all bakeries I have visited across the world,
as part of the ingrained system of baking, the goyim separate the dough in a special
pot which is then called challoh by the Mashgiach. Here in Chutz l‟Oretz, there are
various Halochos in Challoh why this is fine and why even challoh taken after eating
is kosher.
MOA: Do Mashgichim come in the middle of the night.
Dayan Grynhaus: Yes, checks are made regularly in the middle of the night.
MOA: Is it true that in a certain establishment it occurred that the goyim baked their
own items in the oven together with the pittot?
Dayan Grynhaus. Something like this are extremely rare but things can obviously
occur, we are not aware of this, but if anyone hears of such a question ever occurring,
we obviously want to be contacted immediately.
MOA: Why is Grodzinsky‟s not allowed to sell the new Milk in case he uses it for the
coffee machine. Surely if a goy can be trusted to take challoh, he can be trusted to use
only a certain milk for the coffee machine.
Dayan Grynhaus: A Goy cannot be trusted to do something he will not understand.
The challoh is ingrained in him as part of the system of baking like turning on or off a
machine.
Decisions are taken at Rabbinate level and none of the Rabbonim, as stated before,
has any negios.

MOA: “The basic point which was brought up before was why Reb Moshe organised
this whole meeting. How much a chicken costs, how much water in a chicken,
whether we allow the coffee, all can be explained and understood.
The situation that we‟re facing and I‟m not sure that the Rabbonim and other people
sitting here understand this, is that the kehilla here is growing year on year. The
Kehilla was set up as one Kehilla for Stamford Hill and Golders Green. The „metsius‟
is that the most of the people who live here in Golders Green are distrustful of some
of what goes on in Stamford Hill. The way that things are done in Stamford Hill are
different from here in Golders Green where a large proportion work in a professional
capacity. It‟s a basic feeling, speaking on the behalf of many that I have spoken to is
that we don‟t even know who many of you people (on the panel) are. We feel the
Union and Kedassia are a Stamford Hill organisation and we are, for whatever reason,
somewhat mistrustful of them. How many grants have the mikvaos in Stamford Hill
had? We are not convinced anymore that being one kehilla is the way forward.” (loud
applause from audience)

Mr Dovid Frand: Here in Golders Green you have many young Rabbonim. You
have the likes of Reb Chaim and Reb Moshe (Halpern). So far there has only been
one single request for a grant from Golders Green. In Stamford Hill there are four
Mikvaos, none built by the Union, and we gave grants upon request. IY‟H we will be
giving a grant to your Mikva. We are prepared to support you. It‟s all the matter of a
simple request.
Mr J Lobenstien. It is very important that these issues are being heard. In the AYBS,
the NW London Burial Society has indicated that they have no interest in
representation in the AYBS. We are prepared to involve NW London. We want the
co-operation of NW London because for us there is no such thing as a separation
between Stamford Hill and Golders Green.
MOA: Why is there no one from NW London here on the panel tonight?
MOA: If it is true that you do want people to join, I only hope that it is not already
too late. With the greatest respect to the Rov, most of those sending to the schools
now belong to Botei Midroshim who, although affiliated to the Union, have no
connection to it. There are many foreigners who have come here over the past 10
years. They don‟t know or care about the whole Union and Kedassia thing.
Mr Sinitsky: You have to understand that the same concerns you have here in
Golders Green, there are large numbers of Yungerleit in Stamford Hill who have the
same concerns. In the past few years, as you can understand, there has been very little
given out. We did give £10,000 to one Mikva in Stamford Hill which at a standstill
due to lack of funds.
MOA: I gave the Mikva as an example but that‟s not really what this is about. We see
the likes of Dayan Gelley and Dayan Abrahams around, they live in the area, are our
neighbours, we all speak to them and are in contact with day to day. These are the
people we feel have the answers. Then we say that we can‟t eat their meat, use their
Eruv. This community is growing closer, the shuls in the area are closer and there
aren‟t any more any staunch Union members under the age of 50 and unfortunately
there won‟t be any more so I wonder what the point of it is.
Mr Sinitsky. I work closely with Dayan Ehrentreu, Dayan Gelley and Dayan
Abraham on a number of issues. There are also a lot of other younger Rabbonim such
as Reb Chaim, Reb Moshe (Halpern), Reb Greenberg who are available to help
people with their questions.

MOA: I asked one of the Golders Green representatives on the Kedassia board why
he left and he said that the first 1.5 hours were about Stamford Hill and only a short
time about Golders Green.
Mr Sinitsky. I chair this meeting and we discuss the issues relating to Kashrus, not
the areas.
Q: MV: Reb Chaim said that the Kehilla is defined by being part of a Burial Society.
There are shuls which are affiliated to the Union for the AYBS but who are not part of
the Union and do not follow its Rabbonim. Surely to be part of the AYBS you must
belong to our shuls, not use the Eruv etc.
MOA: It has only recently been introduced that to be a member of the AYBS you
have to be a member of a Union shul. Therefore old members who pay their rights are
still included.
MOA: That‟s untrue. Ohr Chodosh is a new shul who all use the Eruv and they are
part of the AYBS.

MOA: Reb Chaim stood there and said that the mecha‟av on us is not use the Eruv,
not eat LBD meat in order to be buried in the AYBS Beis Hakvoros. That, Reb Chaim
said, is the mecha‟av on us. In which case, how can Ohr Chodosh and other shuls
which carry and have a Beis Din Rov and have no sheichus to the Union apart from
the AYBS be part of the AYBS?
Mr J Lobenstien. There is no rule in the Burial Society that people who carry in the
Eruv cannot be members.
MOA: Reb Chaim just said the exact opposite to what you‟re saying.
Mr Sinitsky. We need more time to discuss and answer.

Q: MV: One last question. Would the Union consider buying 100-200 plots in Eretz
Yisroel like the LBD have just done in Beit Shemesh?
Mr Dovid Frand: It could be considered.

MOA: Most Kehillos before Pesach offer some Matzos at a cheaper price to those
who need it. The Kedassia matzos are the most expensive. Would Kedassia consider
offering oil, wine, matzos etc for cheaper to those who need it. Oil costing 50p during
the year costs £8.00 for Pesach.
Dayan Grynhaus: We now have Hazelnut oil this year for wholesale £3.00 a litre .
Normal oil in the shops is £1.80. That‟s a very reasonable price. Kedassia have never
been involved in price fixing.
Mr Dovid Frand. One question submitted was why Kedassia don‟t lower the prices
in the shops. Then there was another question asked how we could sell to Tesco who
will undercut Jewish shops. If we sell to Tesco, market forces will reduce the prices
without setting prices. So what do you want us to do?
Kedassia Matzos start the 18 minutes from when the water joins the flour. That‟s 3
minutes less in each 18. We also have special extractors to remove the moisture and
particles in the air. Our costs are 6% more than other bakeries. That‟s why our matzos
are more expensive.

Thanks were then given to the Panel and from the Panel to the Chairman.