August 20, 2008, 5:48 pm

Interning in the Blogger’s Home Office

By Sara Jane Berman

Sara Jane Berman

A few months ago I blogged about what it was like to have an intern in my home office.
In that post I promised to follow up with a guest post from my intern, Sara Jane Berman,
offering her perspective on the internship. The following is her post, which she submitted
on deadline and in no more need of editing than most of the guest posts I receive from
professional writers.

Interning in the home of a freelance writer was different from the conventional internship
I had anticipated. Instead of the stereotypical “gofer” work, such as photocopying, my job
consisted of tasks such as thinking of questions for interviews, proof-reading Marci’s
blog posts, and keeping an eye on her dog, Sinatra, during phone interviews.

On my first day I noticed that the line between work and home life was blurred, which
may be expected from the author who coined the term “slash” as a type of career. I
quickly learned that for working out of a home, versatility was essential. One minute I
was answering the phone “Hello, Marci’s office” and next it was time to walk the dog or
fix something for lunch.

Since we worked in Marci’s home — often at the dining room table — the atmosphere
was casual. Instead of a rigid work schedule, we would grab a Post-It and write down
what needed to get done. Often, things would be added and knocked off the list. Despite
our age difference, Marci and I realized we had plenty in common and our conversations
ranged from the merits of cloud computing to talking about my friend who’s learning to
be a film director, to life in New York City, and the culture of my high school (of which
Marci is an alumna and where I first heard her speak).

Reading Marci’s blog daily was my “homework”, so when I was in doubt about what to
wear on my first day, her post about dressing for work helped tremendously. Even after
reading that and hearing her tell me to come to work in comfortable clothing, I couldn’t
resist the appeal of putting on my “professional” clothes, so I dressed up a bit, including
changing my black, five dollar flip-flops for high-heels in the cab.

One of my jobs each week was to e-mail Marci to find out which day was best for me to
come to work the following week. At first I was shocked by this because I had assumed
that it would be Marci who would prod me about when I would work. But when I saw
how hectic her days could be, it made sense that I would need to take the initiative when
it came to organizing my schedule. Before each work day Marci would e-mail me the
agenda, including articles or e-mails for me to review to prepare for the day’s activities.
My internship showed me that being a journalist is more than reporting and writing
stories. When Marci e-mailed to say that we would be doing three interviews on my next
visit, I naturally assumed that it would be Marci who would be conducting the interviews.
To my surprise, in all three situations she was the interviewee. That day we had three
interviews- two by phone and one in person. After we finished the second phone
interview and made our way to the café to meet the third interviewer I pointed out to
Marci that she was the journalist, yet she was the one being interviewed. She told me that
journalists are often viewed as experts in their area of coverage, and this point was
reinforced when the next week she appeared on the Today Show to discuss “De-Aging
Your Résumé”.

That television appearance taught me something else, which is that Marci’s schedule was
likely to change between the time we spoke and the time we had planned for my next
work day. Time management is a major enemy of mine – but it is apparently something
the journalists need to master. I learned that by setting aside an ample amount of time for
a major activity, such as writing, deadlines did not seem as daunting. Before this summer
I would not take the time to just sit down and write (without the distractions of the
television and Internet), but now I see that by dedicating two or three hours to a task it
can be done with less stress. I also see that even after writing for hours, an article (or even
a blog post) might still have to go through many drafts before it’s published.

That scheduling unpredictability hit me once again when Marci had to cancel my last day
in her office because she needed time to write on a deadline. This means that the final day
of my “summer internship” will likely occur well into the fall, which is fine with me
since I plan to keep Marci as my mentor as long as she’ll have me.

On Friday, I appeared (for a few brief moments) on the “Today” show to talk about ways
to shed years from your résumé when you’re over 40 and fear that your age might be an
obstacle to getting noticed or hired. The segment was built around the story of Lisa
Johnson Mandell, a 49-year-old entertainment reporter who was profiled in The Wall
Street Journal when she jump-started her job search by removing old jobs and dates from
her résumé, updating her appearance and creating a well-designed video blog.

Ms. Johnson’s story is a good reminder to all of us that spending some time — and in her
case, some money — on our image and appearance can really pay off.

It’s a touch ironic that the “Today” show featured a conversation on this subject between
Matt Lauer, the poster boy for making 50 look young, and Jean Chatzky, who is also no
teenybopper. As Lauer properly pointed out, once you arrive on the job, it is pretty clear
what demographic group you belong to. But there’s no shortage of folks in the 40-, 50-
and 60-plus categories who attest to the fact that what is important is remaining relevant
and attuned to what is going on around you, not necessarily being young.
If I had had more time to speak on the “Today” show, here is what I would have said to
those who fear their age might be working against them in interviews or on the job:

• You can remove graduation years, early jobs, and other tip-offs about your age from
your résumé — as long as you don’t lie. Doing this might be a red flag that you are
over 40, but it might also just deflect attention from the age issue.
• Convene a group of trusted friends with a good sense of style and standards in your
field for an honest feedback session on your wardrobe and appearance. This is
especially true if you’ve been out of the work force for a while or have worked at
home for so long that you forget what’s appropriate to wear to a meeting other than at
your local Starbucks. Read the comments to this post to get a sense of how much dress
codes can vary by industry and by geographic region.
• If someone asks you to do a video chat or use some other technology you’ve never
used before, your answer should not be, “Is there some other way?” It should be, “Can
you walk me through it?”
• Find a way to learn technologies that people are using in your field. If you have
teenagers in your family or can borrow or hire one from a neighbor, ask for a tutoring
session on blogging, Twitter, social networking, RSS, instant messaging, wikis and
anything else you’ve heard of but aren’t quite comfortable with. If you can afford
professional help or a technology assistant, hire one.
• Most important, focus on what is going on in the field you want to work in. If you’re
in doubt of how that field is changing, go to some conferences or at least find the Web
sites of important conferences and see what topics are on the agenda.
Whenever anyone talks about thinking, behaving and looking young at work, the
conversation focuses on technology and appearance. Are there other ways you are
noticing your industry is changing as more young people enter it? Share your thoughts in
the comments.

• 1.

July 13th,
2008
10:37 pm

This is an interesting piece. There has to be some professions where the amount of work
experience (years) actually helps you. I know for certain entry-level positions or
programs it actually counts against you if you have too much experience. You are labeled
“over-qualified.”
— Posted by Dan Schawbel
 • 2.

July 14th,
2008
10:40 am

Hmmm. I’m a bit surprised.

We should not deny the existence of age discrimination. But should we participate with
it? What other form of prejudice would this be okay for?
I’m in my 40s and have chosen work that requires my years of experience — I wouldn’t
want to hire me without them. But yes, I’m tech friendly, in shape, and have a good
haircut.
Sigh. It ain’t easy.
— Posted by Anne Libby

• 3.

July 14th,
2008
12:50 pm

I think Ms. Libby makes an excellent point. It takes time to improve upon strengths, build
a strong skill set and present an impressive resume.
When did 40 become so old that we have to downplay our experience? I’ve got a few
years until that age, but I had always hoped it would be a time in my career when I didn’t
constantly have to prove myself and could proudly stand upon my professional
accomplishments.
— Posted by Veronica Jauriqui

• 4.

July 14th,
2008
2:45 pm
You need to know something about pop culture too, or at least some of it that is effecting
the way we do things.
As for taking older jobs off the resume, that worries me as my jobs in industry were over
20 years ago, before I went into teaching, but they do show that I was able to be
successful in the corporate world and would like to once again do so.
— Posted by dkzody

• 5.

July 14th,
2008
3:04 pm

Having made a career change in my mid-50’s, I became painfully aware of the age thing
and heard the word “overqualified” frequently. Depending on the circumstance I feared it
meant old-school or overpriced, without regard to what I might contribute to the
enterprise.
What helped me immensely:
1. As I went on interviews, I kept my eyes open to how people were dressed, at my level
and above, and adapted within my own comfort zone. I was surprised by how casually
(even sloppily) people, especially women, dress at work.
2. Being naturally curious and interested in the world around me, I keep up on popular
culture, whether I enjoy it or not, so I don’t come off sounding out of touch.
3. Spent a lot time on the Internet for its own sake as well as for research on the
businesses for which I was interviewing.
3. And, yes, I color my hair (professionally done), wear good makeup, wear age
appropriate but contemporary clothes.
The hardest part of the job search was keeping my comments limited to the situation at
hand; in other words, not sounding like a know-it-all, having “been there, done that.” Yes,
it does sound a little like role-playing, but I wasn’t going to let a little thing like my age
stop me from moving forward
As Anne said above, “It ain’t easy.”
— Posted by dj
 • 6.

July 14th,
2008
8:15 pm

Too bad John McCain didn’t read your blog before he gave his interview to Adam
Nagourney and Michael Cooper.
— Posted by Howard B. Golden

• 7.

July 15th,
2008
10:56 am

This is a very interesting piece. I hope you’ll also consider writing about the opposite
situation. For some us, the trick is to try and appear older.
I’m 26 but I can pass for a high school student or college freshman (it’s genetic - my 40
year old sister looks about 30). At career fairs, employers assume that I’ll be graduating
with a BA, not a PhD. I try to dress conservatively and wear makeup but that only goes
so far in convincing people that I don’t take college classes, I teach them. Any advice on
this front?
Oh and yes, I know that I’ll appreciate looking young someday. But these days, I’d
appreciate looking old enough to have a real job even more.
From Marci — An excellent question, DT. When I was about your age, I had the same
problem and a few people suggested I wear glasses (even though I didn’t yet need them)
in order to look older. I’ll think about this one.
— Posted by DT

• 8.

July 15th,
2008
3:49 pm
Being flexible has helped me survive in business. When I was 24 years old and working
in an office setting, I looked 10 years younger and felt I had to try hard to earn everyone’s
respect. At work I dressed conservatively and wore glasses. On my days off I would wear
more age appropriate clothing. Sometimes I felt like I lead a double life! When I reached
my early thirties I changed industries and became a hairstylist. Now I can finally dress in
a more youthful and fashionable way. Eventually, I think we can always find a good
balance.
— Posted by cg

• 9.

July 15th,
2008
6:42 pm

Start your own business and don’t worry about your age. You’ll never be totally
successful in life unless you’re working for yourself in your own business. Not everyone
has the capabilities or desire to start their own business……..but, I don’t have to worry
about age, clothing, office politics or a boss who is a jerk.
— Posted by Max

• 10.

July 16th,
2008
5:08 am

Forty has ALWAYS been old. In the USA a group was started during World War 2 to help
‘old’ men get jobs. That’s why women entered the workforce. Young men were serving
and ‘old’ men were unemployable.
Here is Australia none of that stuff works. Even if you get to interview because someone
didn’t figure out your age, you are left in reception until you leave. One day I decided I’d
wait for as long as it took. Every so often I’d remind them I was there. I wondered if
they’d notice before they locked the place & went home. After 4 hours a very angry PA
came out to say ‘I thought you’d left’. I replied ‘Why would I when I have an
appointment with Mr —’ I was then escorted to a filthy kitchen area where I was
‘interviewed’ by a junior PA.
Never again. I give my age up front. Last week this was greeted with the response
“Ewww” (a popular 20s response to everything) like she’d just stepped in s—. Better that
than wasting time doing an application and the time and money of making a personal
appearance.
— Posted by Deb

• 11.

July 17th,
2008
11:59 pm

Keep trying until you find a place that will accept you for you. My husband, 51, changed
careers a few years ago and hit a brick wall. But he finally found a place where they were
beside themselves to hire him in his new profession, and with his varied experience. His
age is a plus in his new job.
I went back to work in my early 40s after 10 years out of the paid workforce. I was (still
am) computer literate and fit right back in, even though I was very, very afraid of the
change.
Today I was in a meeting where a junior tech person and I were learning something
together. I could feel his impatience, because I was jotting down notes about the process
we were learning.
He took no notes, and hurried through his part of the hands-on exercise — we were
taking turns. He made a few major errors, and his work took a few minutes to correct.
I think I look slower up front, but once I catch on — usually quickly — I’m set.
I think you need to reassure employers that you are up to date in your skills, and when
there is something you don’t know, you learn it.
— Posted by Kate

• 12.

July 18th,
2008
2:45 am
I’m in my early 50’s and like an earlier poster, I’m in the process of making a career
change (programming to teaching).
Part of the education process for becoming a teacher involves going into classrooms to
observe and learn as well as occasionally teach under the supervision of an experienced
teacher. Invariably, I have been older than these teachers.
What I have found that works for me is to talk to them about the process I am going
through and make sure that they know that I appreciate their help. I explain to them that
while I may know a lot about computers, I am learning about teaching high-school
students just like they did 8-10 years earlier.
— Posted by John

• 13.

July 18th,
2008
5:23 am

From dj #15:
“The hardest part of the job search was keeping my comments limited to the situation at
hand; in other words, not sounding like a know-it-all, having “been there, done that.”
I’m 54, and at 49, I was lucky enough to change to a field where my age is a decided
advantage. But I still work with people of all ages, including children, teenagers and 20-
somethings, and I work every day to keep that balance between sharing the wisdom and
letting my co-workers and new friends find their own way. I try to wait for the right
moment, keep my comment to a sentence or two, keep it light, then let it go. I hope
sometimes I can plant a seed.
— Posted by Morag

• 14.

July 18th,
2008
12:31 pm

Thank you! I linked my way to this blog and entry, and it is a relief to hear I am not the
only one experiencing this problem. I am 46, in my 2nd career change. I graduated from
law school and passed the bar in the mid 80s. Went on to graduate school (MA and PhD)
in communication and started as a professor in 98. I am now going “back” to law, after 20
years developing skills useful in a law career. I find my age, degrees, and lack of practical
law experience are killing me. I get interviews and everyone hits me with the “don’t you
think you’re a little over-qualified for this position?” The concern is not my qualification,
of course, it is my age and my degrees which they see as transferring into a salary higher
than my experience warrants. I have tried all sorts of responses, from addressing the
question beneath the question and agreeing that I was, in fact, over-qualified and that
made me the best candidate for reasons x, y and z. I have also sent resumes both with and
without dates for education.
Some great suggestions in the video which I will also incorporate.
Any suggestions for the resume when someone is returning to a career they have
education in but little experience?
ps–I find it telling that the responses about having a difficult time as an older job
candidate are from women. Could be self-selection in who reads the blog.
— Posted by Lisa

• 15.

July 18th,
2008
1:06 pm

These have been great comments, and I really like the suggestion to keep quiet, and don’t
sound like a know-it-all.
As for John, becoming a high school teacher takes huge amounts of energy, and when I
see student teachers come in to observe, and they lack that pizazz and energy, I get
concerned. Be sure you are conveying a high level of energy with everyone you meet so
that you are getting positive remarks made about you. Make really good connections at
all of the schools where you observe. That will be a real plus when you go out looking for
a job.
— Posted by dkzody

• 16.
July 23rd,
2008
11:34 am

I’ve recently left my position as Vice President of a global leader in the home products
business in New York to start my own business that addresses this issue. I agree with
Marci and some of the other comments about presentation: dress, tone of voice,
comments (what you say) and rapport with the interviewer are key. I believe that no
matter how old, the right ’signature’ will completely out weigh any age issues: starting
with your resume. Have a graphic artist design it for you. I don’t suggest leaving dates
off. In my opinion, that immediately brings up an issue that a good resume can override. I
also suggest a witty, short and to the point cover letter. This is where you can present your
energy, enthusiasm immediately. If you ‘get’ the company and present yourself as a peer,
I believe you might surpass the age issue immediately. E.g. Target corporation is all about
young, vibrant and energetic. This can be gleaned simply by observing the marketing and
product design in the Store. A sharp, trendy, well tailored suit with bright accent colors
and up-to-date shoes and haircut will get you far! I believe that corporations are looking
for employee’s who are authentically excited about their company, it’s goals and visions.
I hope this is helpful. Another option is to start your own business!
Amanda Houck
founder
MySignature.TV
http://amandahouck.blogspot.com
— Posted by Amanda Houck

July 30, 2007

SHIFTING CAREERS

A Global View of Reinventing Careers

By MARCI ALBOHER

One on one with Herminia Ibarra (author, “Working Identity”; professor, INSEAD
Business School in France).

WHEN I abandoned my legal career to become a journalist, I was filled with fear and
confusion. After nearly 10 years of practice, much of my self-image was tied up in being
a lawyer. I knew I wanted to make a change, but I struggled with leaving behind a career
where I was confident of my abilities for one where I would be a complete beginner,
working alongside people at least a decade my junior. One of the most helpful resources
in this period was a book called “Working Identity” by Herminia Ibarra.

After years of recommending this book to anyone I know going through a transition, I
had the chance to talk with Ms. Ibarra, who lives in France, but is spending part of her
summer in the United States. For a career nerd like me, it was like talking to a rock star.

Here are excerpts:

Q. You’re an academic and have always been one, yet you write knowledgeably about the
process of career change. How did you get into this subject?

A. I’ve never changed careers, so I wasn’t motivated by that. I wanted to be an

organizational behavior professor since I was 13 or 14. Around when I turned 40,
everyone around me was thinking about doing something else. I talked to a lot of people
who said to me, “I don’t want to be doing this five years from now” and then years later,
they were still doing those things. Something was going on in the zeitgeist, and that’s
why my nose took me there.

Q. Your research for “Working Identity” included career changers from the United States,
France and Britain. Did you find that there was something similar about the way people
reinvent themselves?

A. Absolutely. There is a universal process of experimenting first, and then moving in

that direction as opposed to introspecting first and then implementing the solution that
you found.

Q. You’ve worked both in America and in Europe. Are Europeans as obsessed with
work/life balance as we are? And do they have a better phrase that we can co-opt?

A. We are asked to teach about it at INSEAD so they are concerned about it. They talk
about it as much and it seems to matter more. There is no different term for it.

Q. What do you mean that it matters more?

A. When people are making career choices and decisions they will more carefully weigh
in the nonfinancial factors. They want the whole life picture to work well.
Q. In the United States a lot of people say these attitudes are generational, with younger
people demanding a balanced life after seeing baby boomers and Gen Xers give up too
much. Do you see that same phenomenon in France?

A. In France, it’s not as generational. People work just as much, but the separations allow
them to take the full picture into account when making decisions about career
opportunities. And time off is really time off.

Q. Americans are always talking about the European holiday schedule with envy. Are
people still taking monthlong vacations?

A. It differs a lot by country. In France, we still take all of August off. And a lot of
weekends in the month of May are taken by national holidays. That makes a big
difference. It really charges the batteries.

Q. So does that mean people really unplug? Are Europeans as tethered to their
BlackBerrys and other technologies as Americans are?

A. It all depends on what you do. We can be just as tethered to the BlackBerrys. My
husband has an art gallery in Paris. He hardly ever takes time off. In any industry or line
of work that is global, it is harder to unplug due to different time zones, different national
holidays, etc. Also when you run your own business, it is harder to unplug. In general, the
French have long work days, but they are better at taking time off. And, August is still
sacred (even for my husband, though he stays on top of the e-mail).

Q. Can you offer any advice for how to make “time off” more time off?

A. I don’t know. It’s kind of a mass effect. You need more people around you doing that
too so it seems more normal. People are very much connected to their cultural,
community and social life. Those things help you keep a sense of balance. Let your
friends rein you in.

Q. My readers are mostly entrepreneurs, small-business owners, freelancers and

consultants. What do you see as the biggest trends affecting the way these folks are
working?

A. Most people are not very good at building networks and only start doing it when they
really need it, like when they are feeling isolated or they need a job. Network building is
huge for people moving into bigger leadership roles. It’s very important both for
perspective and for getting things done.

As people move into roles that are much more strategic, with more politics and more
stakeholders, they need to let go of hands-on work, which is a hard thing to do because
their self-definition is based on being someone who does the work themselves. It’s not
that they can’t work with people or delegate, they’ve just always been rewarded for the
more hands-on operational work and they are moving into more ambiguous work.

When you spend more of your time in meetings, influencing people, and influencing
people you have no direct control over, it is harder to feel a sense of accomplishment,
especially when you’re new to it. Plus, you have to let go of something you’re good at.
I’m looking at how people get through that and how people build networks to help them
get through that.

(For more about this, Ms. Ibarra’s recent article for The Harvard Business Review is
downloadable here for $6.50.)

Marci Alboher, a former lawyer, is a journalist/author/writing coach. She is the author of

One Person/Multiple Careers: A New Model for Work/Life Success (Warner Business:
2007).

E-mail: heymarci@nytimes.com. Because of the volume of reader e-mail, each question

cannot be responded to individually. Each question is read, however, and they are often
the inspiration for future columns.