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Mr. Tait: My preamble to my questions is this: First of all, I want to make it clear that I am unilingual. We should do everything that we can to protect both languages and to encourage people to speak both languages, and we should do everything we can to ensure that we maintain the Acadian culture. I do not want the questions I have to be mistaken for anything less than what I just said in my preamble. I am very supportive. The principals of the Centre scolaire Samuel-de-Champlain have been leaders in our community, and they have done so much to promote the language in Saint John, every one of them. They have tried to work with the community, to be positive, and to bring people on board. They have done a tremendous job. I want to go to the statements. First of all, with the governments role, there is an expectation in legislation and in law that people can be served in the language of their choice. That is the role of the government with respect to that part. You have used the words a number of times, and I get the same words from peopleduality versus bilingualism. 024 10:40

I see them as being quite a bit different, and a lot of people do. It goes to the issue of having a French hospital and an English hospital and a French school and an English school. Is that segregation or integration? What are we talking about when we go that route? To me, that is not bilingualism. Are we moving away from bilingualism when we start this? The whole idea is to have people converse in both languages. That is what we would like. We have gone down that route. Then there is the economic factor to it, whether we like it or not. This province is in a terrible financial crisis. You will hear this from most departments: We cannot stand any further cuts. We hear that from most departments. You are a very small department, and I understand that. However, it is becoming very costly to try to provide duality rather than bilingual services. We have to find ways of doing things more efficiently and better with less, because we have no choice. We are in dire straits financially. No one can question that. Could you just respond to those comments? Mr. Carrier: With regard to the whole issue of duality versus bilingualism, to me, they are not opposites. I see duality as a reflection of reality. I am not talking about duality in the organization of government services. I am talking about the fact that there are two strong linguistic communities. We have twodualand basically, that is it. How do we deal with having two linguistic communities recognized in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as being equal when it comes to being offered government services, equal in privilege and status,

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and equal in opportunities to develop and not to be hindered in that because of the language they speak. That is where the complexities come in. I have addressed the issue of education earlier. Personally, I think it is vital to have duality in education. Bilingual schools will not work to promote bilingualism. They will eventually be the downfall of the French language, and I truly believe that. It is not segregation. It is not a sense of rejecting the other students. In my personal experience, my children did not reject their friends who lived across the street and who went to a different school. Actually, they are still together, and they still communicate. It is a reality. However, it was providing them an environment that came as a great help for my wife and me to ensure that they maintain that. Are there other ways? Until and unless someone comes up with a better solution, I think that duality is a necessity and is vital. When it comes to other services . . . Again, I am just trying to explain the process. In 1969, when the official languages Act was adopted, it said that when people ask for services, they should be given their service in their language of choice. In many areas, people did not. One of the areas where people were reluctant to do so was when they were at their most vulnerable, in hospitals. Hospitals, over the past 40 years, have not had to respond to a demand because people were concerned that they did not want to be more vulnerable by insisting. That could also have been at their detriment. I am very bilingual, but when it comes to my own health, I become a lot less bilingual. I am more uncomfortable when having to deal in the other language. I manage, because I have to in Fredericton. My doctor is not bilingual, and most of the time, until recently, when I went to the Dr. Everett Chalmers Hospital, it did not happen. 025 10:45

As a result of that, some members of the Acadian community were concerned about the lack of services in some areas and proposed to have a dual system, which, in fact, to some extent, occurred, but it is not really duality as we have it in education. Every hospital, every health establishment, in this province must serve people in both languages. Some do better than others, but all of them can operate in their language of operation. They can choose one language or the other to make it as effective as possible. I think the Act reflects the reality and the difficulties of managing a hospital in that way. A court action took place and was finally resolved, and I think it did not result in duality in health as we have it in education, but it responded to a concern about being able to get a basic service which concerns your health in most areas in your language. I think that, obviously, health is a major contributor to provincial expenses, and you have to find efficiencies there, but I am not sure that you would jump immediately on bilingualism as the way to resolve the economic problems. You have to consider them, but the reflection should not be that this is on the back of bilingualism, and the reason we are in these financial difficulties is because we are an officially
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bilingual province. I do not think we can prove that. I do not think it is an accounting position. It is more of an ideological position that I do not necessarily support. On the other side of this, in an era of communication, in an era of exchanges between countries in the world, have we tried to look at our advantage of being an officially bilingual province in order to profit financially by the fact that we have done fairly well in dealing with differences? Have we developed an industry of language? Why not? Is there something that we can use? I think we can. However, if we see it as a burden, obviously, it does not give you the incentive and the reflex to start looking at the positive side of it and to make profit from it. The matter of duality in education is simply because it is needed by the Acadian population. It is vital. If you, as a person, value both of our cultures and bilingualism, then you cannot support a system that allows this to happen. If it is not there . . . Again, I do not want to sound melodramatic or negative, but in this world today, I think it is the most important part of it. As far as the issue of how we offer servicesduality in government versus the otheris concerned, I am not sure that there is a great outcry in the Acadian population to want to have two governments. Some people may, but generally, I do not think there is a great outcry. What people want is to feel that their language is in reality what it is in the law, that it has equal status, and that people can be treated very easily by government, government representatives, and government employees in the way that reflects what the charter says and nothing less. The Acadian population, over the years, has been very accommodating, and most people are ready to be patient and to see things happening, but they are not naive either. They know that, unless they tend to it, it may be difficult for them to continue to advance. In referring to my earlier comments about a proactive approach in government, it is not because people are not of good faith. It is that, sometimes, unless you are proactive, matters that have to be tended to in order to support official bilingualism will not happen easily. The culture, the reflex is not there. That is how government has to play a role to a large extent. 026 10:50

The bigger political decisions when it comes to how we build our system, be it in education, health, or justice . . . I think we have done fairly well. I think we are an example to other parts of Canada. It will continue to raise questions and debates, and it should be that way. It should allow everyone to have a say. However, everyone should also have the willingness to want to listen, to come up with collective solutions, and, sometimes, to make compromises. Some people feel strongly that the only way we are going to be able to protect the French language and French culture in this province is to have more duality. Others do not feel that way. It is a question of discussing it and coming up with solutions that will meet the requirements and
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provide the support to the Acadian community but that will also come up with ways that we can afford. The economic reality is there, but I do not think that, if you start cutting, you can take a swing at bilingualism, particularly. You have to look at the whole of government and look at bilingualism as something more than a burden. You have to look at it as something that is part of who we are and with which we have to deal. Sometimes, when I am in a less public forum, I will throw out examples of some things that we would not cut although, if you look at it and analyze it very closely, it may appear that they do not bring water to the mill. You would not cut those because those are our values. You are not going to cut services to senior citizens or to other people who need the support in order to go through life as equally as the majority. I think you have to look at the interactions between our two communities, bilingualism, and linguistic rights in that light and be very open and generous in looking at them. I think that is something that we have been able to do, to a large extent, and I should hope that we can continue to do that, even in times of financial difficulties. Mr. Tait: Thank you. .............................................................................. Ms. Wilson: I want to thank you for your presentation. It was very informative. I, too, have some concerns. We have talked about inequality in some areas, and we know the importance of equality for both Francophones and Anglophones and basic human rights. We have talked about your mandate to promote harmony. However, since I have been in government, I have seen a silo situation where some things are not affordable because of the duality. There has to be a better way to work together. Certainly, in the pastI can speak for my riding and for my age group, being an Anglophone ridingsome of us have been left by the wayside because we did not have the opportunity to speak French in school, as was the case with some of my Francophone friends when I lived in the north. They did not have the opportunity to learn English in schools either. Having said that, I look at the way it was integrated and how it came to be. I can think of a situation where my own family member went to university for six years to be a social worker, and, after she completed her courses and did very well, she was told that she could not have a job because she did not speak French. I saw a situation recently where someone who is very close to me and who speaks very good Frenchin fact, she is teaching French in Petitcodiacwas told when she got the job that she had to go to do a test to be sure that she was fluent enough to have this position. When she called

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to make the appointment on a Friday, she was told that she should speak a lot of French on the weekend because her test was at nine oclock on Monday morning. That did not bode well. I look at one of my constituents who has worked in a government position for some time as a part-time worker. A job was posted that said the person had to be bilingual, when there is someone there who can speak . . . They never speak French in that particular place. She has worked there and has been a good employee but is not allowed to have the opportunity to apply for this position because she does not speak the second language. 030 11:10

We look at the fact that 83% support the official languages. I think that is very good, and it gives a good indicator that, as New Brunswickers, whether Anglophone or Francophone, we believe in equality. I think a lot of people look at this as an opportunity and welcome it with open arms. However, because of the past, some of the situations that have occurred, and the cost involved, it would appear that it would not be an equal opportunity for some of the Anglophones. It has caused a rift that did not need to be there, had it been done properly. This has always been my belief. Having grown up in my community and having lived in the north for some time, I know even some of my Francophone friends would say that. We would have loved to have had the opportunity. Like some of my colleagues here today, I am also learning French. It has been a dream of mine to be fluent in both languages. As you said, because we live in an environmentespecially in mine where there are very few Francophoneswe do not have that opportunity to use it, so I continue with my courses over the summer because I believe we need to think in French to keep that momentum going. However, we do need to have a change of attitude and a better communication of how we can promote what you are trying to do in your job, to have a fairness on both sides and to bring this together so that we can have that perfect harmony. I believe there is a way to do that. We just have to be forward-thinking enough to find that opportunity. When we talk about the signs in Dieppe, I really believe that most people would have come onside if they did not feel that it was a forced issue. When people feel that they are compelled or forced to do something, then, naturally, they get their back up. However, I want to ask this question: Have there been any thoughts of involving a committee whereby it could set up ways or look at ways that we can better promote the Francophone? I understand what you are saying. I have very good friends whose children went to Sainte-Anne School. Today, they live here, and they have good jobs. The older one actually lives in Montreal, and she is trilingual. She has lived in Argentina for nine months, so she has learned Spanish. Why is it that, in other countries in Europe, they speak a number of languages, but we do not do that here? You spoke of education, and I think we need to look at all aspects of it. Have there
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ever been any ideas of having a committee put together to see how we can promote this and work better together to create more harmony? Mr. Carrier: Actually, there is. Dialogue New Brunswick was created some 15 years ago as a result of some public conflicts between the two communities. I remember the initial conference was cochaired by Archbishop Nutter from Fredericton and Antonine Maillet. It was held here in Fredericton. As a result, they decided to create Dialogue New Brunswick, this organization that has been in existence since then and that has been supported by both levels of government over the years. In fact, its main mission or vision is to provide opportunities for exchanges in a very convivial environment. It not only provides programs and sponsors exchanges of students, but it also provides opportunities where adults from different communities get together and discuss. It is interaction, but they mostly get to know each other and realize that, basically, whether you are from a Francophone community or an Anglophone community, we share a lot of the same values. It is a question of just discussing them and creating opportunities that do not necessarily happen by themselves. Sometimes, you will find opportunities, but this program is designed to do just that. 031 11:15

I attended a meeting last year where representatives from city councils and other community members from Saint John, St. Stephen, Caraquet, and Edmundston got together in Edmundston and had a couple of days of exchanges on issues, on concerns coming from individuals or from members of those communities with respect to how it is being perceived. The opportunities do exist, and I believe that, at times, maybe we need more. In my report, as a result of the conference that we held where we had 100 members of the public from across the province, approximately half-and-half from both linguistic communities, there were exchanges. The end result was that this is what we need. We need more chances to discuss, not just to throw ideas across the way, but a chance to sit down and really vet out and ask these questions. We should feel comfortable in asking the questions. It is not always easy. Sometimes, when you want to question a policy or a law, you may be perceived as being against it, but you are not. You are looking for more explanations and more information to be able to have an opinion on it, but it does not come easy. There has to be an environment where it becomes easier to discuss these things, to understand, and to listen. It does happen from time to time. Does it happen enough? Maybe not. In my work, I have encouraged groups and individuals from both communities to get involved in participating. Even in the Moncton area, at levels like the YMCA and the United Way, efforts are being made to ensure that both communities are not only participating but that both languages are also
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recognized and respected. The conflict may be gradually removed in some meetings or group activities that may have been there before. That is gradually taking place. However, obviously, these are complex issues, and, in order to resolve some of them, the way we do that is by chatting, discussing, debating, and arguing. Ms. Wilson: Absolutely. There has to be that dialogue. You made a statement that people were perceived . . . I can assure you that, for most Anglophones, when we raise that question, it is our fear that we will be perceived as being against, which is certainly not the case. Perhaps, in some cases, it is true, but certainly not from where I am sitting and from people I have spoken to who are Anglophones. We are almost paranoid of raising it, for fear that it will be perceived in the wrong light, and that is not what we want. Mr. Carrier: I think you are right. Ms. Wilson: With Dialogue New Brunswick and some of these meetings, can you elaborate on some of the outcomes? Mr. Carrier: Dialogue New Brunswick is composed of a board of directors that has an equal number of members of Francophone, Anglophone, north, south, men, women . . . It is almost down the line, 50-50. It is a very equal type of group. It is involved in a lot of activities mostly designed for schoolchildren. It has a pen pal exchange and school visits where an immersion class from Doaktown will go to Dieppe or Bouctouche and vice-versa. That has been going on for a long time. It is not an in-your-face type of organization, but it does have a lot of participation from the school system in order to create this interaction and in order for children who are from different schools to get to know each other and realize that they like the same music or the same movies. They are from different linguistic communities, but generally, they are the same, and they can work, live, and play together. Those are a lot of the organizations activities. 032 11:20

It has had the ambassador program which was started a few years ago. The situation I described a few minutes ago, where Saint John . . . It started out with a group from the northeast, mostly municipal councils, in the Caraquet area. The Saint John and St. Stephen people got on a bus. They went there and spent three or four days. They had lobster and a great time. Then they went back. I think that those few days created a potential for understanding. It will not resolve all the issues, but at least, it provides the opportunities to exchange in a nonconfrontational type of way. I think that is one of the ways that we will deal with some of the complex issues like duality versus bilingualism. What is this all about? If all you hear or understand of it comes through the media . . . I am not going to criticize the media, as it is under
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pressure of putting out daily bulletins. Does it have the opportunity to expand and provide answers to all the questions? Not always. If you are limited to a very narrow reporting on it, you may not be able to get as much out of it as you would by having the opportunity to discuss among individuals and among groups. I have been trying to promote a discussion between businesspeople in Campbellton, Dalhousie, Miramichi, Saint John, Fredericton, and other areas. They would be opportunities to discuss as members of both communities who are in the business community. Their main concern is running their business and making money, and there is nothing wrong with that. That is how the world turns. It is doing it in a New Brunswick way, in recognizing the values that we hold dear, the difficulties that some have and others do not, and the evolution. These are opportunities. In sporting activities, there are all kinds of opportunities where these things can happen, but you can also have formal events where it is the topic of the day. We try to go through those events, realizing that, at times, people are quite passionate about these things. Being passionate is great . . . Ms. Wilson: I really think that it is through communication and working together that people come to an understanding. In getting together, at the end of the day, you find solutions, and you come out with a better understanding of both sides of any situation, almost like in arbitration. Mr. Carrier: That is right. Ms. Wilson: With the fiscal challenges that we face as a governmentI have always been a person who looks at cost-saving measures and at things that are cost-effectivehas there been any movement to look at ways of doing things better and in a more cost-effective way? Mr. Carrier: Talking about cost-effectiveness is a million-dollar question. To do things better but effectively is the challenge of governing. To me, as I said earlier, you cannot start by saying that bilingualism has been the culprit or is the culprit or one of the culprits of our situation. I do not believe that. I do not think anyone has come up with numbers on that, and I think it has been a benefit. Some people pooh-pooh the call centres, but they provided jobs and still provide jobs in some areas. A lot of these companies were drawn because of our bilingualism. Is that a plus? Is that a drain? Is that profitable? I think we have to look at the analysis of cost-effectiveness. As I said earlier, what benefits have flowed from duality, culture, and language? What benefits can be developed as a result of it, instead of just looking at it and saying: We have to cut that, because it is not going to work. There are some real issues.

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Earlier, you referred to a friend of yours not feeling that she or he could be promoted because she or he was not bilingual. Well, you are learning French. Mr. Stewart is learning French. In the past, since I have come into this position, we went from some 600 civil servants learning a second language to about 200 as a result of a fiscal decision. You have people who, for whatever reason, did not become bilingual and who were hired within government. The government has the responsibility to serve people equally in both languages. They cannot perform as well as they would like to. Some of them would like to have the opportunity to learn the other language, but it is not provided. Government, which used to provide second language training does not do it as well or as much. Why is that? You also have adults who have contacted our office who are not civil servants. We have had taxi drivers and people working in the communications industry, saying: We would like to have the opportunity to learn, but it has to be modeled to our lives. I am a parent, I work, and I do not have three weeks to go to Trois-Rivires to learn French. Is there something . . . We have put it in an annual report. Should government look at that? Is that good for the community? Will that put more people to work here instead of going to Grande Cache? These are decisions that governments have to make. They have to analyze and squeeze benefits out of these, to see that there are opportunities. Unfortunately, sometimes, it is seen as only a dream. I must say that it is not fair, and it is also not very progressive. I think that, if we are going to be progressive and take advantage of all opportunities . . . I am not an expert, but I look at our economic situation and at our province that has built its economy on natural resources. We are having problems finding natural resources to do it. Dalhousies mill is closed. The forestry industry is competing against forces that are too big in South America and Asia. Our forestry industry is not that solid. It is a fact of life that mills close. In our fishing industry, we do not even know, from one year to another, if we are going to have stocks. In agriculture, we are not sure. In mining . . . What we have as a natural resource is us. The fact is that we have been able to develop a province that works with two cultural, linguistic groups that have gotten along and that have made it work. Why have we not been able to bank on that and develop an industry on that instead of seeing it as a drain? This may be seen as highfalutin or thinking in colour, but I think we have to look at that as part of the analysis of our economic situation. Our natural resource, our strength, is us, and the fact is that many of us have lived through the difficulties and have come up with the situation where 83% like the fact and 84% are pleased to live in this bilingual province. They are pleased. Now, they may have questions about the way we apply these things and how we manage them, but it is par for the course. What are we going to draw from the

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experience of the last 50 years? Can we bank on it? Can we develop this? Can we develop a communication niche? I think we can. How do we do it? I do not know. However, if the mind-set is that we are in financial difficulties so, obviously, the first thing to drop is the bilingual side of it, you are going to have a real opposition. First, from me and from the community . . . Ms. Wilson: I was not suggesting . . . Mr. Carrier: I am not saying you are suggesting that, but I am saying that, sometimes, it is the knee-jerk reflection. I have heard it from members of this Assembly in private, who have basically said that. Ms. Wilson: Mr. Carrier, I think that, when you look at . . . I can tell you about a couple of situations in my riding. I have received numerous complaints. In my view, there is a better way of doing things because this is not affordable. When you find out that a child wants to learn a second language and go to a French school and that a bus is driving 20 mi to pick only one person up, that creates a lot of havoc. There has to be a more cost-effective way to do that. 034 11:30

I know a family member who lives beside this person and sees them picked up. She asks: Why is that? She takes her children to a school where . . . Both of her small children are in day care, and they are learning a second language. However, they drive them in the morning, and both of them are professionals and working every day. When you see a school bus driving this distance or . . . In one case, one child goes in a cab to and from in the morning and in the afternoon. It is expensive. It is not affordable. There has to be a better way to provide what this child needs. These are things that I hear about often, and some people are angry. This angers people because they see the expense of it. That is why I am saying that there has to be a better way of doing things. Sometimes, we implement things without looking and thinking them through well. How can we do this in the most cost-effective way but still meet our goals and our targets in the end? Mr. Carrier: It is the challenge of any individual or group that is given a mandate to govern and to manage in the most cost-effective way while ensuring that the population is well-served in all aspects of it. Obviously, that requires wisdom, hard work, and dealing with tough issues. The question of school closures and busing goes beyond just a question of official languages. In many areas of the world, you have populations leaving the rural communities and moving to more urban areas, and that creates problems for parents who have to see their school close. Those are tough issues to deal with. How do you deal with that? To bus 10 children 40 mi, an
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hour each way, raises concerns. Is it cost-effective? Obviously, those are issues that have to be debated and looked at. There are no quick fixes or easy solutions, if you are going to consider all aspects of the mandate. In this province and in this country, it means looking at the needs of linguistic communities, as per our charter and as per the values that we have adopted. Sometimes, it requires some tough debates and tough analysis. There is nothing wrong with trying to find better ways to deliver the service. It is not even a question of anything being wrong with it. I think it is the duty of governments to do that. In the process of analyzing and coming up with solutions, you will have to look strongly at all aspects of it. My point is this: Look at all aspects, look at the basis for them, look at what we are trying to achieve and what we have been trying to achieve, and lets not have a knee-jerk reaction because we think something is happening that way. We have to be more rigorous in our analysis. I think it is being done most of the time. I do not envy teachers, and I do not envy school principals. They are faced with complex issues. As elected officials and as government employees, there has to be a recognition, in any analysis, of what they are going through and what they are trying to achieve by providing the best support possible within the means and then trying to get more money into the coffers of the province in order to provide the services that people expect the government to provide. It is why we are here. It is why we are all here, and it is why you people have decided to get involved, to try to find ways to make sure that our system works. 035 11:35

Ms. Wilson: You spoke about knee-jerk reactions, and I think that, sometimes, when things are implemented . . . If you look at some of the rules and laws that are in place, they override good, old-fashioned common sense. For example, one thing that was a hot topic a while back was the person getting off for speeding because that person was not greeted in both languages. That created a negative impact because here we are. Anyone speeding should have a ticket like anyone else. Regardless of whether they were speeding in French or English, they should have a ticket. That is where I find it difficult for us to promote what you are trying to do when these sorts of things happen. As I say, do you let a speeder go on the road and get away with it? Then, perhaps, you would drive up the road, and see someone in a horrible accident. If it had been addressed, it may have been something preventable. Mr. Carrier: My response to that is that our justice system is a complex system. We have laws, and there are different levels. We have the police, the courts, the prosecutors, the levels of
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courts, and rules in play. I practiced law, and I have used arguments in court that some of the public may have looked at and said: That is not right. They assume that the person is guilty and should . . . We have to create a system and live by the system that we create. People get off speeding tickets for a number of reasons: The speed gun was not tested properly, or they made a mistake on the ticket. They said it was a Mustang, but it was a Ford Focus. There are all kinds of reasons because there are rules at play. To just single out that one as unfair . . . It will happen. People are concerned. People believe in law and order. I think that most of us, in New Brunswick, believe in law and order, and we have a fairly good system. However, if you use that as an example to say that it does not work, because some people seem to abuse it, they are using their right to contest a charge. When there is an unbalance, if you remove that right, you are saying that the police are always right. Mr. Urquhart will tell you that the police are not always right. There are checks and balances, and it is no different: If you do not follow the law of the land, you do not cherry-pick one part of the chart or the other. If the police do not follow the law of the land in charging people, the court has to look at it. I think that, sometimes, you can shake your head and say: That does not seem right. The police are always concerned that they have the goods and the evidence, but they just cannot submit them in court so that they stick. It really burns them, and some people do that. However, when I hear these comments, I say: Is there more to it than the fact that they got away with a speeding ticket? Is it just the value that they put in this? It is just stuff that really is not important. It is just stuff that we throw in there because we want the police . . . It is a basic constitutional right, which is something that we value in this country. Lets not cherry-pick, and lets look at it. If there are abuses, let the system look at them to make sure that they are fixed. Right now, we have laws that prevent people from drinking and driving. We have changed the system recently. We have made it more stringent. There are ways to respond to that. Some people may think: That is stupid. If I have one drink, one glass of wine, I cannot drive anymore? Basically, it has come to that. A lot of people will not agree with it, because they do not, but as a collectivity, as a community, we have decided that this is what we want for ourselves and for our communities. Part of New Brunswick is the Official Languages Act, and it is what we will respect because it is what we have adopted. At times, it will be difficult to go through them. I have looked at some of the sections and said: This is not necessarily clear. Confusion may create some concerns. Some people may say: That is not right. Lets work at it. A process has started where we are going to look at this Act. It provides opportunities to tighten it up, to clear it up, and to make it so that it does what it is supposed to do and not create a perception that it is not, in fact, reasonable. We all have our opinions on that. A client comes to me and says: I have a speeding ticket. I only have three points left. I do not want to lose my . . . I am an MLA, and I have to drive.
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Standing Committee on Legislative Officers Comit permanent des hauts fonctionnaires de lAssemble Not finalized / Non finalis le 30 juin 2011 11:40

You will find ways. As lawyers, that is what we do. That is part of the job. Some people may say: That is not right. Well, that is the system we live in. Sometimes, it works. Most of the time, it works. Sometimes, some decisions may be perceived as aberrations, but generally, I think that, with this question that all you had to do was use the Official Languages Act to get off a speeding ticket, that is not what is happening, and that is not something that is necessarily different from what happens on a daily basis when people are in court and trying to go through the system. Ms. Wilson: Thank you very much.

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