Lying and Stealing (part 2 Lying) LYING AND STEALING (Part 2 Lying) Dr.

Paul Robinson (Transcript of an audio tape) Natural Approach to Parenting

Our discussions now will deal with lying. At the beginning we said that lying and stealing were two of the more difficult everyday problems for parents to deal with. What makes you say that? There are many reasons why children lie. Well go into them in a minute. But to help get a rough idea why lying is difficult, we need to realize from the start that lying can be an effective tool for children. A tool? Yes. Lying like stealing is an efficiency tool in our society. Lying often stops the child from receiving an impending punishment. Lying often saves the child from personal embarrassment. It allows a child to impress people by claiming accomplishments that have not really been performed. And its a misbehavior that often goes undetected. So in other words, lying can reap many short term benefits for the child while being less prone to detection than any other form of misbehavior, like kicking, tantrums or laziness. A major problem is related to that short term aspect you mentioned. For if lying works for a young child. He will tend to escalate its use as he grows older, rather than letting that action fall by the wayside. Well lets look at kicking or biting for instance, these two misbehaviors, while functional when young, they tend to drop out as a child gets older. Generally speaking a child will not refine his kicking and biting as he grows older. But a child will keep lying as he grows older because its quite functional and refine his skill at doing so. Besides being difficult to detect, lying becomes one of the more functional misbehaviors for children as they grow older. Yes, lying is part of our society. Every adult, keep in mind, has lied at one time or another. We tell our child to tell the person on the phone that we are not home. We tell our child that we are going to do something and then we dont do it. So children see it being used quite often. Our society is worse on this point than many others. Societies where parents seldom tell these little white lies have far fewer children who attempt to tell the truth. So parental lying is the main reason for lying? No, but its certainly one of the most important. Thats why I confront the problem of lying in a child by reminding the childs parents to look very carefully at their home situation and what they say. We often dont realize how frequently we may use these harmless little white lies that children dont really interpret as anything but plain lies. What other reasons? Well, one of the main reasons for lying is that it can be very effective in saving the child from punishment. When confronting a child with something they have done wrong, that will result in punishment, that little mind finds itself in a situation where it wants desperately to avoid pain, and that mind begins searching for some psychological defense mechanism to stop that pain When confronted, children most commonly use a defense mechanism we call denial. It may seem irrational to the parents, particularly if the evidence for the lie seems overwhelming. But denial is one of the first strategies the young mind will try. And if it causes the parent to hesitate in administering the punishment then that little mind remembers and uses that approach

Lying and Stealing (part 2 Lying) again. So you are saying theres an innate tendency to deny it at first, and this tendency to deny is affected by how successful it works for the child. Then if parents dont let lying by the child work, they will have done one of the most effective things they could do to stop lying in the future. Yes, lying is most effectively reduced by doing several things that well discuss to insure that lying does not reap benefits for the child.

Denials of lying by children often seem so irrational to parents that we begin to feel there is some deep psychological problem causing the lie. We say to ourselves, The evidence is so obvious that they are lying. Why cant they admit it? Theres got to be some big psychological problem with my child. Then lying is not caused by deep psychological problems? Well inner conflicts can prompt a child to lie. But most generally the child lies frankly because it pays to lie. So how do you distinguish between the two sources of lying? Well the important thing to remember is that you do not have to. You treat both lying situations the same actually. Even in situations where lying is due to some distortion of reality by the child. The best medicine is following through with unpleasant consequences for that lie. If you dont you are actually helping to magnify the childs distortion even more by removing natural unpleasant consequences that typically follow in our society for such behaviors. So if you distort reality so to speak, by not punishing lying in the child who has distorted reality, then you are helping to distort reality for the child? Exactly, when the child lies about doing something, then cries, you dont love me. then the parents often change from punishment to consolation. And that consolation will in fact, strengthen the childs use of lying because it works. A parent replying to the child by saying, Johnny, you really know that I love you. Is actually making the problem worse. And in the case like that, the child has effectively shifted the issue from lying to the issue of whether the parent loves the child. The parent needs to reply to such diversion attempts from children by saying, Now that has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. We can talk about that issue of love later. Now lets get back to this issue of lying. And children often try to divert attention when they are being caught in lying? Oh yes, its perhaps the second most common tactic after denial. So in essence you are saying that lying is such a common and difficult problem to handle because it can work for the child. Yes. And like stealing, its results can not only be profitable, but it is often easy to circumvent parents punishments because it is often difficult to detect. And when detected there are still things that often work on parents to keep that punishment from coming. The parent needs to reply to such diversion attempts. Im beginning to see that stealing and lying have a lot in common. Right. Lying and stealing are both social and moral problems more than misbehaviors like screaming or laziness. Both are harder to identify the child having done. Both are things children see adults do. Both are often excused because of deep psychological problems and both have certain gratifications or incentives and repercussion dimensions to consider. By repercussion and gratification you mean a childs mind automatically considers the pluses and minuses for lying before he does it. Often this is very quick. But like stealing, lying has its pros and cons. And the childs mind considers this and adds up the plusses and

Lying and Stealing (part 2 Lying) minuses to determine whether he is going to lie or not. This is where step two and step three in dealing with stealing and lying is important And they are the same step two and step three that we use with lying. So they are basically the same?

Lets go through the steps for dealing with lying. There are five basic steps to handling lying. There were five for stealing also. These will be the same basic steps. The type of information you collect will be different to some degree however. The first step is again what we call situational analysis. You look at exactly what the problem is by answering such questions as how often the lying occurs? Does it occur around a particular topic? Does it occur with particular people? Does it occur at a particular place? What kind of lie is it? Is it a denial, an exaggeration, or an impressive? Is it done to save personal embarrassment? You can also ask, what are the actions when lying? For example, Does the child get very anxious? Does he get mad? Is he very non-chalant? Another question you may ask is will the child admit the lie later? Are there other misbehaviors like stealing that are involved? Are those the only questions that you ask? Well those are important questions, but others could be included. Those are the questions a psychologist would want to ask, if they were hired to help you. The Psychologist would also want you to tell as much as you could about what you might think is important. So, you should do the same if you are trying to deal with the problem yourself. You sort of start where a trained therapist would start. Exactly. Then you wont need a therapist? Parents can do a lot by themselves. More than most realize. Listing out as much as they can often then many parents can correct the courses of action and decide what they are, and they become clear to the parent simply by listing them out. Too many parents try to handle lying incidents one at a time and fail. Its important to remember again, that one needs to look closely at what the dimensions of the problem really are. Would working on this step help if a psychologist was involved? Well that child rearing professional would certainly be more able to interpret what the problem is and would know more special techniques to use, but frankly many parents can handle the problem on their own. And then if they didnt they could go seek out a professional to help. However, lying and stealing are problems that I as a parent would get all the help I could to stop. After analyzing the situation from all directions you go to step 2 which like before with stealing is asking, What gratification or incentives result for the child if he lies? Are there several payoffs a child can receive from lying? Yes. First of all it is frequently used to cover up misbehaviors for which reprimands are due, because of indolence or laziness. It keeps the child from receiving some unpleasant consequence. If a parent says Johnny did you do your homework? The child is now put in an unpleasant situation which could become more unpleasant if he tells the truth. So lying has the two potential effects: It keeps the reprimand from coming, plus it often results in positive payoffs from mom and dad for them saying things like, Well thats great youve got it done or Im glad youve done it now you can go watch television. So indolence means to be lazy or slothful. Things like not making ones bed, or cleaning up a room. Failure to do chores. Not following instructions, being forgetful, and not following through with considerate actions.

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If lying occurs to cover up indolence, then there are two things the parent should think of including to handle that lie. First is to more thoroughly check out whether the task was done, rather than just relying on the child to tell you so. Second use the techniques outlined on the tape on indolence to help the child get over indolent actions. If you can get him to quit being so lazy and so forth, it is definitely going to reduce his tendency to lie about it. Both of these suggestions will help reduce the tendency to lie. Now the second reason children lie is to cover up some behaviors that have been related to some object such as stealing. In such cases the object received is what induces the situation where the child feels lying is required. In such cases reducing the desire to steal, which includes the segment of having the child be truthful and explain how he stole will in fact, help reduce the lying. So by stopping the stealing and have the child have a non-threatening honest discussion later, will reduce the lying. Right. No matter why a person lies, part of the treatment should be similar to stealing, reprimand the act of lying, then the following day or so discuss that lie by having the child explain how he lied. Make sure you do not ask the child IF he lied, just ask him in a calm and non-threatening tone, why or how he lied. Like with stealing you wait until the next day to discuss it when the emotions of the event is gone and hes not so prone to feel he has to lie. Now with stealing, you advised the reprimand be in two parts. First something immediate like a spanking or a scolding. Then a task such as scrubbing floors to be done for the next few days. You then advised the parent to come and ask the child to discuss what hed done while this scrubbing chore was in progress. Is that what you do with lying? Yes. Have the two parts. The second part you remove when the child begins to openly talk with you. So you might say, John, do you feel like talking about what happened yesterday? And the boy says O.K. So you then say something like, I really hate to see you having to be punished for lying. What do you think we can do to make sure you dont feel like you have to lie again? Thats a really good approach. Be sure during this that you say nothing unpleasant when he starts to open up. This is very important. Nothing like, Ahah! I knew you really lied, now you better not do it again. Listen to what the child has to say. Always giving positive comments when he opens up honestly to you and being just quiet or non-commital if the child rambles on about non related things. Always close with something like, Thanks, Andy. I always appreciate you talking honestly with me about this. What if when you are talking you ask him if he wants to talk and he says, No, because I didnt lie. Well, some children will come out ahead if they dont open up to what they did. In such cases you dont get mad, you just casually say, Well, O.K. Go back to scrubbing, Ill check back in a half hour or so. Then part of your strategy is that he can quit scrubbing if they open up and tell the truth. What if they never do? I usually give them two hours of scrubbing, digging, weeding or the like for three days running. That gives them nine chances to give in and open up. Out of the numerous times I have used this technique, less than two out of ten children continue past the first day. Particularly when they begin to catch on that their discussion ends the work. Then you dont flaunt the fact and say, if you admit it, the work will stop. You never want to handle it that way. Always act in a kind and

Lying and Stealing (part 2 Lying) matter of fact tone, rather than vindictively. The child has paid for that lie once, do not keep taking him to task for lying. In fact, let his reprimand be reduced somewhat when he opens up with you.

Well you said lying can occur to hide indolence and stealing. Any other reasons for lying? Yes, lying is commonly used to avoid ridicule and disapproval of peers and parents. Plus its done to gain acceptance or approval. Now these two reasons for lying do not require as severe a punishment as a penalty. They do require more work with the child to develop more suitable alternative ways of handling social situations. A child who has to tell tall stories to get attention, may be taught how to get attention through telling jokes, or telling true funny stories. Finding some strength a child has and helping him develop that helps reduce this type of lying. So now we have four main reasons why children feel impelled to lie and along with some suggestions as to something to be done to reduce the value for lying. Step three. Those things that make the child not want to lie. Those things that increase his hesitation to lie. There are three main points which influence a childs hesitation to lie and those are the same as the ones for stealing. First has to do with making the penalty for lying severe in a physical sense. Second has to do with the loss of parental approval and possible loss of self esteem or approval respectively. You mentioned that for stealing, loss of approval and self approval were not as much of a factor in stopping stealing as increasing the value of the physical penalty for stealing. Is that true for lying also? Yes it is. But what others think about you for lying is a little more important than what they think of you for stealing. Well hows that? Well this point is based on the fact that the temptations to steal are generally stronger than the temptations to lie. You mean the actual positive payoff for stealing, you mean what you can actually receive is typically larger than the payoff a child receives for lying. Right. And by the way, the opportunities to lie generally occur more frequently than the opportunity to steal. But the same parental approval will influence a child more about his lying than about his stealing. You seem to be pointing out that with stealing and lying you need to think of two things: You not only think of ways to increase the penalty, you also think of ways of reducing what a child gains by lying or stealing. Plus one of those can offset the influence of the other. If you reduce the value received for lying you automatically increase the overall influence of any fear or hesitation the child has for lying. In other words, parental influence has a greater chance to keep a child from committing a small lie rather than a big lie. Yes. The big lie has a greater payoff. As long as the child feels the parent will be just as disappointed in both cases of either lie, then when the lie is smaller, the parents attitude about it will have a larger effect. Then the most direct way for increasing the hesitation for a child to lie, is to increase the physical value of the penalty for lying as you do for stealing. Yes first, whats the intensity? Second, whats the frequency? Third, how immediately do you give that penalty? Fourth how consistent the parents are in following through with the penalty. Five, the ability of the child to go and lie without being detected. The penalty for lying

Lying and Stealing (part 2 Lying) will be more effective the more frequent, intense and immediate the punishment. The more effective parents are at catching a child at lying, the more effective will be the penalty.

Now lets go to the 4th step of developing a plan. Where you take all of the information in the first three steps into account and map out a strategy of how to solve a lying problem. If for example you know that lying occurs frequently, part of your plan includes waiting for the next incidence and administering what you conclude will be an effective punishment. Now if the child lies infrequently, then the plan might be modified to include setting up situations where the child will most likely lie. If the child is lying for acceptance, your plan may include teaching your child to tell jokes or true and interesting stories. While if the child lies to cover up stealing, you are going to work more to reduce the stealing by allowing the child ways of earning money to buy things instead of stealing. It sounds as if this is an instance where child rearing counselors could be of great help to parents. Oh yes. They could provide valuable insights from their training and contingency management skills. Most parents know some of the basics about rewarding and disciplining children, but are weak in knowing about the timing dimension and other important what I like to call tricks of the trade so to speak which will spell success rather than failure. I have met several parents who say that they have tried punishment or reward techniques and theyve not been successful. You point out that knowing a few basic principles just isnt enough. For certain things. I have also met many frustrated parents who feel that setting up proper consequences for a childs behavior doesnt work. But their failures invariably result from a lack of sufficient understanding about the importance of several necessary ingredients like proper timing. So during the planning step you try to take such things into consideration. You will decide exactly what punishment to use, when you will set up that important next day talk after lying or stealing has occurred, and think out as exactly as you can what words you want to say. Its like practicing for a part in a play. Thats right and the better prepared you are, the more effective you will be. So your plan includes many things, the most important of which will be trying to reduce the possible gratification for lying. Selecting the most effective punisher from a list the parents have already made up of the specific dislikes for a child and making sure the childs guilt for lying can be indisputable and properly timing the punishment and follow up talk and chores and penalties. The last step, 5, like with stealing, entails setting up the proper atmosphere for implementation. Make sure you are not ignoring positive actions of your child. Make sure you are not being distracted by being too busy while your plan is being carried out. Be sure you are focusing the consequences for positive and negative actions your child is daily performing, make those consequences as immediate as possible and make the child pay for misbehaviors only once. Make sure the child sees that it is specific actions of his that are rewarded and punished. You mentioned earlier that parents often fail because their interactions with their children are just far too general. Right, parents promise allowances but think nothing of being late in giving them. Or we ask our child to do a

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job for .50 cents then fail to pay immediately for that task. Receiving consequences right after a child does something asked to be done, strengthens that action oh probably ten times more than if the child receives the payoff the next day. Be sure to look at how well you follow through with agreements, promises, and threats to your child. As in the sport of tennis, follow through is critical for parents who decide to change a childs actions. Well, outlining the steps should prove helpful to parents and professionals dealing with these problems. Many parents just need a good blueprint to follow. It does not tell them every possible thing a psychologist would consider and do, but it will give them a good solid outline as to what is needed. Lets ask some specific questions that parents and professionals might have. How long does it take to get a child to stop lying and stealing? Well I disagree with many professionals who feel it should take months and years. If you do not see changes in a week or two in your child after you start your program, something is wrong. You mean it can begin to work that fast? Yes, if you are properly timing everything, it should. That habit to lie or steal will obviously not disappear in such a short time but you should start seeing some progress. You mean their lying and stealing should be going down quite quickly? Keep in mind it will actually increase a little before it goes down. This is a sign that the child has felt inconsistency in what you have done in the past and this increase in the child is a way of unconsciously checking you out. You mean they are not just doing it for more than just spite? Well, in families where children have learned to outlast their parents in tussles like these, they might be doing it intentionally. But dont worry whether its intentional or not, the fact that they are reacting to you is good. Just be sure to hold out and outlast the childs efforts. If after a few weeks the childs misbehaviors havent declined, what do you do then? Well, you better look over carefully what you are doing. Talk it over with neighbors or professional counselors. Most of the time it is that the punishment you have selected is not severe enough, or your timing is off. If a child stops lying or stealing after one or two penalties I begin to worry. Why is that? Because lying or stealing, if it has occurred frequently, are hard habits to break. And when it occurs too fast, I watch for what psychologists call discriminative extinction. Some children learn to give in quickly to parents. Then go on doing what they were doing in a different way. Children often learn that parents get pumped up to confront them, yet are poor at following through over the long haul. A child then learns sort of surrender quickly then bring out that misbehavior later when the parents guard is down. So parents solve that problem by sticking to the plan for a longer period of time. Yes. Expect some resistance to change in the child. Particularly if they have stolen or lied quite a bit. If it doesnt happen, if the child seems to change too quickly continue what your are doing and thats fine, but look for a reappearance of that problem later on. Now keep in mind lying and stealing are morally wrong in your child. Are there things you can do to help instill that moral value? Yes. Check yourself first to see if you are a good model. Do you tell white lies or take things and forget to return them? Remember all of us are guilty of that at some time or another. You need to make some kind of a resolution during the year to be very careful about doing this. Our example to our children is a critical factor in our children lying and stealing. Our little white lies are just

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plain white lies to them. Second, show honesty. If you are undercharged at a store, correct it in front of the children. Let them see it. Husbands and wives can create little scenes with each other in front of the children, where the moral of the incident has to do with lying or stealing and that thats wrong. Another suggestion is to have discussions in the family about lying and stealing. Perhaps a t.v. show includes a theft. At that time the parents might then point out that is wrong and explain what that person could have done instead. With these discussions you actually want the child to make those statements. You want the child to become verbally involved. So when a lie is being told on a t.v. program the parent could say, Now what is that person doing wrong and what could they have done instead? But be sure to follow up the childs comments with assuring words and signs of appreciation from you. You strongly pointed out that lying and stealing have positive and negative dimensions that the childs mind considers when deciding whether or not to lie or steal. Are there times when the child looks stronger at the positive or negative dimensions of the situation? And this is a very important point. That psychologists began to realize in the late 1930s early 1940s. Suppose you need money and decide to sell things door to door. Have you noticed that your apprehension about selling things dramatically increases as you walk up that sidewalk to the door? Now at home when thinking about selling, you most likely thought about how nice and easy it will be to sell to people. Selling, like lying or stealing, has two components, the gratification of a possible sell, and the fear of rejection by the customer saying no and slamming the door. Thats right. I used to get cold feet when I would approach doors to sell things when I was young. The reason is that you are in what we call an approach avoidant conflict. The further away from some goal, in this case selling, that you are the more your mind will dwell on the positive parts of selling. But the closer you come to the door, the more your mind focuses on the closer negative parts. Right. And that is true for lying and stealing, the childs mind initially focuses on the potential gain and gratifications that can be made from these acts. When the act itself gets closer to being done, the more the negative consequences and repercussions are thought about. So what can a parent do to decrease a childs thinking of doing it? It just boils down to the higher the penalty for lying or stealing, the further in time prior to the act the child will begin to consider their effect. So by giving a more intense and consistent punishment, the greater impact it will have on the childs even thinking about stealing or lying. Exactly. Ive heard that some children make up imaginary friends for making them lie and steal. Is that true? Oh yes. A few years back I saw a young boy named Daniel who had an imaginary friend named Thomas Kent. A few years back there was a t.v. show about a ghost named Thomas Kent and Daniel actually named his imaginary friend after that t.v. ghost. Anytime Daniel got in trouble for lying, he claimed it was because Thomas Kent made him. And he would yell and complain about that Darn Thomas Kent. So what did you do? Instead of worrying about Daniels psychological stability I simply punished him for lying. When he argued that it really wasnt him, but Thomas Kents fault, I would reply, well Daniel, that Thomas Kent just left you holding the bag. I must punish you for lying because Thomas Kent is no where I can get him. And he eventually quit talking about Thomas Kent. Thats strange. Not really. He had an imaginary friend who

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filled a need. It kept others from punishing him for lying. When I removed Thomas Kent from successfully taking the blame for Daniel, Thomas Kent was no longer functional for him, so Daniel disposed of him. Did Daniel really believe Thomas Kent was real? Oh yes. And most children often do. For example one night I heard yelling and screaming coming from Daniels room. I raced in there to find out what was going on. When I got in there he said, Thomas Kent just came in through the window and I almost caught him but he got away. That sounds like he really believed it. That illustrates why I seldom listen to arguments that the child couldnt help himself. Or that he is not psychologically responsible for his lying or stealing. When we make such allowances for childrens behavior, most children can come to believe something that was not really true. But because its functional for the child, it then becomes reality to them. So you are saying, even when a childs lying and stealing seem to be occurring because of something outside reality, the best way to handle the situation is to continue to focus on giving consequences for those misbehaviors? Yes, you may have to beef up the timing and be specific that way. In fact, if you distort reality even more by making allowances, you strengthen the unreality in that child and that makes the problem worse. Following through with properly timed consequences for right and wrong actions is really the best medicine for stopping lying and stealing done by even the irrational child. And did you discuss with Daniel his imaginary friend to show him it wasnt real? No. By the time he met me, he believed in Thomas Kent. His imaginary friend had become reality. The same way an adopted child can often divert a parental punishment by claiming, Youre just doing this to me because Im adopted. In such situations like Thomas Kent, and the adoption claim, the parent wisely should not dwell on the issue. For doing so merely reinforces the child unconsciously that what they are saying is true. So you handle such situations by ignoring those claims and following through with the punishment irrespective of the claims about something like Thomas Kent or being treated unfairly because the child is adopted. Right. When such claims fail to serve their intended purpose those claims will begin to drop out. So there are times when the child may be dealing with unreality? Yes. But it is best in almost every instance to follow up consequences of the childs actions specifically and quickly. That helps keep him in reality. That helps him see what hes doing. And if you do have a child who is very adamant that it is something else, you increase the focusing of the punishments and increase the focus of the positive. You help him focus more on his actions rather than making up or having to distort something else. He sees the relationship easier and it brings him back to reality so thats a very important thing. I think often times we get distracted. We let our childrens comments divert us from things we should be doing. Well Dr. Robinson, we seem to have covered a great deal of ground about lying and stealing. Yes we have. I hope the listeners find it useful.