Two Dialogues on Freedom with Papaji Lucknow, India, 1991 Papaji: It is good to bring the mind back to one

subject, from its wandering tendency of going running about from object to object, many times a second. It is good to bring it back, by concentration, to one object, which is just like holding the tail of a dog; as long as you hold it, it is straight and when you leave, it becomes curly again, [laughter], because it is not the nature of the tail to be straight. So, through concentration, it is good to keep the tail straight. As long as you do it, on one object, it looks fine. Dyana is when the mind has no object and no subject. The rest is concentration, which has to be practised. We should not forget that the mind will be calm as long as you are practising, but it will not destroy itself. The mind will not be destroyed. It will be calm for sometime. So, to keep the mind calm and destroy it forever is the aim, and which is absolutely necessary for freedom. When there is no mind, it is freedom. When the mind doesn't function, this is freedom. I dont find any results by concentrating on an object, because it is done with some effort. Some effort is needed between the observer and the object of observation, and this in between them, this function is effort. When the mind doesnt function and returns to its natural state of calm, peace, this is effortless. This is called freedom. To have this freedom, it doesn't require any effort, it doesnt require any method. You have not to tread on the beaten track. You have to find your true nature, find out who you are. You have to start there before trying to know anything else. Leave aside all methods, leave aside everything. You sit quiet and do not move. Do not move the mind, do not activate the mind nor the intellect. Then observe the observer itself and this will be your true nature, from where everything else comes. This is your own nature, dont forget. If you bring any questions of making an effort, of making it a method, or of trying to achieve something in the distant future, this will bring you into time, and time is mind. This will be play of mind only, but your original nature is empty. You are all, at every time, empty. Thats all! Then, follow what thought arises in your mind. You will find that all this arises from emptiness, from its source. When you are aware, when you see that , I am that source itself, then there is no need to practise anything and there is no need to go anywhere, and you will see that you already have been that. This is called freedom, which you have not to achieve or attain in the distant future. It is already there! So, if there are any questions about it, we will discuss about it. Question: If one is aware that that is ones nature, but when there is any concept of time or movement there, then fear arises and there is hesitation. Papaji: This is a fear of facing the emptiness, because you are living in so many things, so many concepts, you see. You are meant to face the emptiness, face to face, and you lose everything: all concepts of the past, present and future which are considered to be your life. Youre holding on to them because the feeling is that youre living along with them. So when they leave, you have the fear to die in the ocean of nectar. The fear of death in the

nectar. And whats the meaning of nectar? Eternity, deathlessness. So, we have fear of eternity, that 'I' will become eternal. This is a fear because we want to cling on to something for our safety. We find that we are already holding on to the body, mind and senses. This is for our safety and we do not know that when we get rid of these things, we will have peace. As we mentioned last time we were talking together, when we go from the waking state to the sleep state, we lose everything. What we held on to during the waking state: our relationships with people, our relations, all this will leave. When we enter into the sleep state, we have lost everything. At that time we have no fear. We are afraid of going into emptiness because we have never heard about it, nor have we experienced it. Sleep, weve experienced and were not afraid of it. We love to get into sleep, get into the state of conceptlessness. Getting into the state of emptiness is the same, there is no difference. We cannot experience it because we are already in it. You cannot have an experience of what your true nature is, you see. Therefore, dont try and get the concept that you have to achieve something by practise at some time later. You have to get rid of this concept. By doing something at a later date, you will enter, or receive or achieve the same thing which you are now. So, why not do it at this very moment? What will be the difference? This moment is available to you right now! Look into this moment, look into this instant of time. Look into it just now and see how you feel. This instant you cannot speak of. It is a very beautiful subject that we are discussing. It happens, you see. It happened, this is the experience of everybody. There, we forget that this itself will dissolve. It will find itself, you see. So, that fear will vanish. So there ends everything. What will happen is, this 'I' will dissolve. The mind is no different from the object. Any object is objectified mind only. Do not let your mind abide anywhere. Mind has to abide on an object, and if the object is removed, the mind cannot hang without abiding on an object. Then, there'll be no mind. Lucknow, India, 1993 Question: How do I get rid of the ego? Papaji: Turn your sight inside, look behind the retina. In front of the retina will appear objects, but try to look inside. When you look inside you have solved all your problems of the ego, of everything. There will be no ego inside. Ego, jealousy and fear are all outside. You will feel jealous with someone who is higher than you and hate people who are lower than you. This is the trend of looking outside, so for one instant look inside and you will see beauty and love, behind the retina itself. It is easier to look inside than to look outside. There is no difference between looking inside, stillness, quietness and peace. They are all the same. When you look inside, then only will you find peace, not by looking outside. So, look inside and see what happens. Peace will come up by itself. There is no difference between looking inside at the reality, and outside at the dream, the

creation. This cannot be explained. In quietness, in stillness or on the battlefield; to still be quiet on the battlefield, or on the high peaks of the Himalayas, meditating with no associate around you. There is no difference, and this is called equilibrium of the mind. No meditation, no practice. Keep quiet without a thought of effort, as in deep sleep, even only for a second. There is ones true nature. Trust this thing; nothing ever existed! As the leaf falls from the tree, it has got nothing to do. It has no intention that , 'I go northward or southward'. It flies with the wind and this wind is Grace. Now, you have fallen from the tree of the ego, from where you came. Now, you are falling on the ground, lying. So, whichever direction the wind blows, it will take you. You have no choice now. So, this is how you have to live now. Question: How can I be free of restlessness? Papaji: Don't peep into the past because the past of everybody is dark, troublesome, and if you look to it you cannot have peace of mind. So, the only thing to do is not to look to the past. If you say, "It is very difficult", I will not believe you. All past at one time was present, and you enjoyed very well. This enjoyment was a stupid enjoyment because you desired the joy from someone else, didnt you? You are not happy by yourself. You took out somebody, some snake to love and it bit you. All relationships of the past are the cobras. This poison will not keep you alive, keep you happy. Therefore, the best way to keep happy is to not go to the past. Try! Any thought that comes, you have to be watchful. Life is here to enjoy. God has given so many things in the world. God is so compassionate, merciful, helping his children. He has given a beautiful world to live: full of snow-capped mountains, rivers, forests, trees full of fruit. So, why not enjoy this world? But you must know the technique of how to enjoy by not having these snakes or scorpions. Look at it and it will vanish. You have not been looking, therefore you are having a life crisis. So, you have to try. Write down, "I have looked at this thought, yet I still have a life crisis". You bring this letter tomorrow. You have to write definitely what is happening. Question: How can I end my fear of death? Papaji: There is only one trick to avoid death and that is; "Know thyself now!" Everybody is senseless, sleeping in a coma. They dont know what to do. Therefore, the best way is, don't waste time. Do it now! Find out what is the reality about the beings that appear to you. It may not be true what you see. After you wake up from a dream, where is the wife you had in the dream? Like this, you have been having for generations wives and husbands, brothers and sisters. Where are they? If they disappear like the dream, then let us think that this might be a dream also. Anything that appears and disappears must be a dream. So, whatever does not disappear and does not appear must be real. Find out what it is. Find out

within yourself. You must divorce all physical relationship, all names and forms. Whatever stays in the memory of your head is a form. If it is formless, you cannot see it. Now, in formlessness you are quite free. All forms will disappear someday, so whats the use of living with that form which will trouble you later on, which will die? This form will not stay. Why love it? Be careful, you have to love one beloved which you cannot divorce. That is called, 'Miss Peace'. That you cannot divorce. One glimpse of it will give you happiness. She is hiding because you are looking somewhere else. You stop your looking, just for one second, and she will reveal herself. All other beauties will fade away. So stay quiet, it will show itself. You're in Manhattan and somebody has slapped you on the street. Then, you go to your place in New Jersey and sleep in the night. Will you not remember this place where you have been slapped, insulted? New Jersey is where your house is. It has got nothing to do with where you got slapped. Here you are kissed by your friend. When you think of grief it belongs to somewhere else, and that somewhere else is past. When you go back to grief, you have to go back to Manhattan, to be slapped again. That is the habit of most people. They cant avoid it. A slap on this side, a slap on that side. Repeating it, yet not learning a lesson. Go your way! Don't go to areas where you are insulted. Stay at home and you will be happy. I dont mean stay in your apartment. Staying at home means staying within your own Self. And if you stay there, nobody will harm you, everybody will love you. Question: This Samsara, this duality, how does it arise and how do we end it? Papaji: It has no beginning, but has an end. This ignorance, this Samsara appears and there must be a beginning to it, and this beginning is as if you see a snake instead of a rope. Only when you inquire, reason out, the snake disappears. This ignorance has no basis. Due to ignorance of the rope, the snake appeared. On reasoning, on inquiry, it disappeared. So, ignorance of he Self gives rise to Samsara, and when you inquire into it, its going to end. Otherwise, for millions of aeons, it will stay. Its not going to end. So, how to stop this Samsara? Only still the mind. There is no difference between stillness of mind and freedom. When the mind is still, you are free. There is no method to still the mind. Only by reasoning. Only when you inquire, How does this Samsara arise? Where does it begin? It started from Sat-Chit-Anand, Truth being in bliss. With the association of Prana it became individual self. I arose, then everything arose. So, this ego is beginningless, it is not going to end. Whatever you do, it will spread more and more. Samsara has become real, but when you still the mind, there is no reality of the Samsara. Reality is only knowledge, existence and bliss. When the mind is made free of its attachment to what it is holding, then it is still. Anything dear to you in your mind is Samsara. So, when you get rid of this, the mind is left still. As from the ocean or the river, you see waves and bubbles. There is no reason, water is water. And so, name and form arise, but when you investigate: 'This is water and water has not changed. The waves and bubbles are water.' So, with a still mind you have to reason out.

Question: How to still the mind? Papaji: Give up everything you are holding. That's all you have to do. And your mind becomes free of any attachments, vasanas and desires. This is freedom. See that your mind is not running after any object. All objects are past objects. Attachment is an impediment to this wisdom, consciousness and light. If you can give up all attachments of the mind until this moment, you can imagine what will happen. Discrimination, clarity, doubtlessness and desire for freedom will arise in a pure mind. Everybody wants to understand intellectually, but the intellect cannot carry you across to the other shore. So, be free of the mind, of the intellect, and then you will see that you are your Self: Being-Knowledge-Bliss. Somehow, you have forgotten it, therefore in satsang you are reminded, "You are Being-Knowledge-Bliss." Whatever you are doing, you are doing from within your consciousness. 'You' are not doing, 'It' is doing. Put the responsibility of action on Consciousness, and be free! 'It' is doing, that's all! Question: Can you help me to see the emptiness? Find out who this 'seer' is. Find out who wants to see the emptiness. And how is this different from emptiness? When you let go of all concepts, what is left? Yes, emptiness! When the mind doesnt go anywhere, this is 'no-mind', and when the mind goes somewhere, then it becomes 'mind'. The dress that we wear is not 'me', is not 'we'. The indweller, the person who wears the dress is more important. Likewise, the bodies are also like dresses. Who is wearing the body, who is wearing the bodies? And, 'That' is one. 'That' is one's essence, and at the same time 'That' can wear millions of bodies, and has millions of tongues to speak. If you identify yourself with 'That', that 'One' from where time, mind and consciousness arise, then you feel oneness with all beings. So, from there you can recognise that 'It' is speaking. All the languages that others speak; the birds are chirping and the tigers are roaring, the water falls and the breeze whispers into the ears of the plants. He finds himself to be identified with 'It', that he doesnt find any separation. So, if you go to that essence, that substratum from where everything arises, then you can speak and do whatever you want. All the activities rise from there and you feel that it is you who is speaking through all the mouths, and it is you who is active through all the activity of the world. It is not difficult, you can do it here and now. How? Just by searching. Where does the physicality arise from? Go on towards it, to where this thought takes you. Follow from where does the wave rise and where does it dissolve, and you will discover something vast, from where the waves come. So, all these manifestations are just the waves which are rising from within, from a very secret, sacred cave of you own heart, and you are

this. When you hold something else, your mind takes to hold any object, any name and form. Then you forget who you have been and who you are. Therefore, once again, return back to your original status, your own kingdom, and dont beg. Throw away the begging bowl. Begging bowl is desire, intention, hope. So, if you get rid of desire and hope, you are back home. Instantly, you are back home. Instantly, we become 'One'. All is 'One', and 'It' is all. There is no doubt about it. In not going anywhere, I am everywhere. From wherever you are, return to the centre. You can do it in this moment. Postponement is suffering, mind, time. Get rid of this and arrive at eternity, happiness, beauty and love. Youve got nothing to do, only give up your old habits of desire and hope. That's all. Desire has taken you out of the kingdom and this desire itself is a begging bowl, which is never full, which can never be full at all. So, once you throw it away, instantly you are emperor. Any wanting, even wanting peace, joy happiness is obscuring the simplicity of who I am, and that simplicity is revealed in not wanting any of them. What is the difference in what you speak and what he speaks? Nothing! It's very simple, very simple, very easy to follow. Look into who is looking, that's all. The one who looks, the looking and the looked at are the very same.