Varadhan
RAJENDRA BHATIA
S. R. S. Varadhan was a w a r d e d the Abel Prize f o r the y e a r 2 0 0 Z I m e t h i m on 14 a n d 15 M a y   o n e weela before the p r i z e c e r e m o n y in Osloin his office at the Courant Institute to interview h i m f o r the Mathematical Intelligencer. My qualifications to interview h i m were that he a n d I are Ph.D.'s f r o m the s a m e institute, m y Varadhan n u m b e r is 2, a n d his w a s the f i r s t research talk that I attended as a g r a d u a t e student. My m a j o r disqualification was that I k n o w little o f probability, a n d I felt like s o m e o n e destitute o f geometry daring to enter Plato's Academy. Though w e h a d p l a n n e d to talk f o r two or three hours, our conversation w a s spread over nearly eight hours. What follows is the record o f this with very m i n o r editing. To help the r e a d e r I have a d d e d a f e w "box items" that explain s o m e o f the m a t h e m a t i c a l ideas alluded to in the conversation.
Professor Varadhan, before coming here this morning I was in a Manhattan building whose designers seem to believe that the gods look upon the n u m b e r 13 with an unfavourable eye, a n d they can be hoodwinked if the 13th ,floor is labelled as 12A. The Courant Institute building not only has 13floors, y o u r office here is 1313. Well, the two thirteens cancel each other. Excellent. I a m further encouraged that I saw no sign prohibiting those ignorant o f Probability f r o m entering the Academy. So we can begin right away.
A n d y o u r mother, Janaki? My m o t h e r didn't go t o school after the age of 8, as in those days it was not the custom to send y o u n g girls to school. But she was a versatile w o m a n . She learnt to read very well, was k n o w l e d g e a b l e a n d smart. For example, she taught m e h o w to play chess. I could play chess even before I w e n t to school. Was the school in y o u r village? No, w e had s o m e land in the village but did not live there. My grandfather d i e d w h e n my father was 18. My father b e c a m e the h e a d of the family with two y o u n g e r brothers o n e of w h o m was o n e year old, a n d he had to l o o k for a job. Did he teach in Madras? He was in the District School System in Chengalpat district that surrounds the city of Madras on three sides. W h e n I was b o r n he was in Ponneri, a village 20 miles north of Madras. He m o v e d from one place to another and I c h a n g e d school thrice. I s k i p p e d s o m e grades and was in e l e m e n tary school for only two or three years. I spent three years in the highschool in Ponneri. Do you remember some o f y o u r teachers? Yes, I r e m e m b e r my highschool teachers very well. My father was the science teacher. I r e m e m b e r my maths teacher w h o was very good. His n a m e was Swaminatha Iyer. He used to call s o m e students to his h o m e on the
Early Years
Our readers would like to know the mysteries of your name. In South India a child is given three names. My n a m e is Srinivasa Varadhan. To this is prefixed my father's n a m e Ranga Iyengar, and the n a m e of our village Sathamangalam. So my full n a m e is Sathamangalam Ranga Iyengar Srinivasa Varadhan. What part o f this is abbreviated to Raghu, the n a m e y o u r friends use? The child is given a n o t h e r short n a m e by which the family calls him. Raghu is not any part of my long name. A n d you were born in Madras, in 1940. Your f a t h e r was a highschool teacher. Did he teach mathematics? He taught science and English. He had gotten a d e g r e e in physics, after which he h a d d o n e teachers' training.
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w e e k e n d s and gave t h e m p r o b l e m s to w o r k on. His idea of mathematics was solving puzzles as a game. He gave us p r o b l e m s in geometry.
I remember that about my father too. He was a school teacher in Punjab. He would also teach on holidays and the parents of Sikh boys had to beg him to give at least one day off for the boys to wash and dry their long hair. (Laughs) Yes, teachers those days thought it was their mission to educate. They e n j o y e d it. They were n o t very well p a i d but they carried a lot of respect. Now things have changed. Did you have any special talent for mathematics in highschool? In most exams I got everything right. I usually got 100 out of 100. Was this so in other subjects as well? In other subjects I was reasonably g o o d but I h a d problems with languages. I was not very enthusiastic about writing essays. What languages did you study? English a n d Tamil; a little bit of Hindi but not too much. Were you told about Ramanujan in school? No. I learnt about him only in college. Interesting, because in a highschool over a thousand miles away from Madras I had a teacher who worshipped Ramanujan and tom us a f e w stories about him, including the one about the taxi number 1729. Where did you go after highschool? In those days one w e n t to an Intermediate College. So, I w e n t to Madras Christian College in Tambaram, and then to the Presidency College for a bachelor's degree. At the Presidency College you studied,for an honours degree in statistics. Why did you choose that over mathematics? My school teacher Swaminatha Iyer told me that statistics was an important subject, and that Statistics Honours was the most difficult course to get into. In the entire state of Madras there were only 14 seats for the course. Statistics s e e m e d to offer a possible profession in industry. My teacher had a r o u s e d my curiosity about it. So I did not apply for admission in mathematics, but in statistics, physics and chemistry. Did you get admission in these other subjects also? I think I did in physics but not in chemistry. I had ap
plied for physics in the Madras Christian College, Tambaram, and for chemistry in Loyola College. You k n o w admissions are a nerveracking process. They do not put up all the lists at the same time. They want you to join the course immediately, and take a w a y all y o u r certificates and then you cannot switch your course. The Presidency College is different, being a g o v e r n m e n t college. They put up all the lists on one day. My n a m e was there in the statistics list.
You mean it is somewhat of a coincidence that you joined Statistics. If the other colleges bad put up their lists earlier, you might have chosen another subject. Yes. Did you read any special books on mathematics in College? I never learnt anything more than w h a t was taught. But I found that I was not really challenged. I could u n d e r s t a n d w h a t e v e r was taught. I did not have to w o r k for the examinations, I could just walk in without any p r e p a r a t i o n and take the exams. The newspapers in India have been writing that in the honours examination you scored the highest marks in the history qf Madras University. I think I scored 1258 out of 1400. The earlier highest score had p e r h a p s b e e n 1237, and o n e year after I p a s s e d out this course was stopped. So there was not any c h a n c e for any one to do better than me. V. S. Varadarajan was also in the same college. Did you know him there? He was three years a h e a d of me. I met him for the first time in Calcutta. I was struck by the,fact that the two persons from India who won the physics Nobel PrizeC. V. Raman a n d S. Chandrasekharand now the one to win the Abel Prize, all studied at the same undergraduate college. Was there anything special in the Presidency College? I think at one time the Presidency Colleges in Madras, Calcutta and B o m b a y were the only colleges offering adv a n c e d courses. So, it is not surprising that the earlier Nobel Prize winners studied there, If you w a n t e d to learn science, these might have b e e n the only colleges. They were s h o w p i e c e s of that time. In my time the Presidency College was the only college in Madras that offered h o n o u r s programs in all science subjects, and these were very good.
RAJENDRA BHATIA suggests that his exposure in the course of interviewing Professor Varadhan has been quite sufficient and a biographical note about the interviewer would be overdoing it. He quotes the character Insarov in On the Eve by Ivan Turgenev: "We are speaking of other people: why bring in yourself?" Indian Statistical Institute Delhi New Delhi, I I0016 India email: rbh@isid.ac.in
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Figure I. The Guru and his disciples: A. N. Kolmogorov, dressed in a dhoti and kurta in Calcutta 1962. Standing behind him are L to R, K. R. Parthasarathy, B. P. Adhikary, S. R. S. Varadhan, J. Sethuraman, C. R. Rao, and P. K. Pathak.
T h e n I ran into [K. R.] Parthasarathy, Ranga Rao a n d Varadarajan who started telling me that mathematics was much more interesting (Laughs) . . . a n d slowly I learnt more things.
What are y o u r memories o f the Institute? Do y o u recall anything about [P. C.] Mahalanobis? Yes, Mahalanobis w o u l d come and say he w o u l d like to give lectures to us. Were they good? No! (Laughs) . . . . He w a n t e d to teach mathematics but s o m e h o w he also made it clear that he did not think much of mathematics. It is difficult to e x p l a i n . . . C. R. Rao was, of course, always there. He was very helpful to students. But he didn't give us any courses. There were lots of visitors. For example, [R. A.] Fisher used to come often. But
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THE MATHEMATICALINTELLIGENCER
Your first paper is joint work with Partbasaratby and Ranga Rao. The main result is that in the space of probability measures on a complete separable metric abelian group indecomposable measures form a dense C~ set. Why was this surprising?
At that time we were learning about Banach spaces, Baire category, etc. To show that a distribution o n the real line is i n d e c o m p o s a b l e was hard. You can easily construct discrete indecomposable distributions. The question (raised by H. Cram6r) was whether there exist c o n t i n u o u s indecomposable distributions. We proved that c o n t i n u o u s distributions and indecomposable distributions both are dense G8 sets. So their intersection is nonempty, in fact very large.
So your getting into probability or mathematics, was because of the influence of your fellow students.
Yes, it was because of Parthasarathy and Ranga Rao. We studied a lot of things. I was interested in Markov processes, stochastic processes, etc. We used to run our o w n seminar at 7:30 AM. J. Sethuraman also joined us.
I read a comment (by Varadarajan) that this work was sent to S. Bochner and he was very surprised by it.
No . . . , I don't think so. Certain things are appearing in print [after the Abel Prize] about which I do not seem to know.
Your Ph.D. tbesis was about the central limit theorem for random variables with values in a Hilbert space.
Yes, then we thought of extending our ideas to Hilbert spaces, and there characteristic functions are not sufficient. You n e e d to control some other things.
Was that the first work on infinitedimensional analysis of this kind? Had the Russian probabilists done similar things?
They had tried but not succeeded.
So this is" the first work on measure theory without local compactness,
Yes.
Some newspapers have written that C. R. Rao wanted to impress Kolmogorov with bis prize student and brought him to your Ph.D. oral exam without telling you who he was.
(Laughs) Yes, the story is pure nonsense. We k n e w Kol
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Figure 3. A rare photograph of Monroe Donsker with his wife and Varadhan's son Ashok.
m o g o r o v was going to visit a n d w e r e p r e p a r e d for it. He a t t e n d e d m y talk on m y w o r k a n d I k n e w he was going to be one of my thesis examiners. My talk was s u p p o s e d to be for o n e h o u r but I d r a g g e d it on for an h o u r and a half and the a u d i e n c e got restless. Then K o l m o g o r o v got up to m a k e s o m e c o m m e n t s a n d s o m e p e o p l e w h o had b e e n restless left the room. He got very angry, threw the chalk on the floor, a n d m a r c h e d out. And I was w o r r i e d that this w o u l d be the e n d of m y thesis. (Laughs) So w e all w e n t after him and apologised. He said he was not angry with us but with p e o p l e w h o had left a n d w a n t e d to tell them that w h e n s o m e o n e like K o l m o g o r o v m a k e s a remark, they should wait and listen.
Varadarajan was not in Calcutta all this time. He returned in 1962 and pulled you towards complex semisimple Lie groups. Yes, he returned during m y last y e a r at ISI. He had met HarishChandra and w a n t e d to w o r k in that area. This was a different area, and considered sort of difficult. Was it difficult for you? Not really. We w e r e just learning, it was hard learning b e c a u s e it was different. Very f e w people, even among those working on the topic, understood HarishChandra's work at that time. What is the wall you had to climb to enter into it? I w o u l d n ' t say w e u n d e r s t o o d all of it. W e just m a d e a beginning. Varadarajan, of course, k n e w a lot m o r e and g u i d e d me. We had a specific goal, a specific p r o b l e m . W h e n y o u have a specific p r o b l e m you learn what y o u n e e d and e x p a n d y o u r k n o w l e d g e base. I find that m o r e attractive than saying I w a n t to learn this subject or that and face the w h o l e thing at once. Was this work completely different from what you had been doing with groups? It was c o m p l e t e l y different. So far w e h a d b e e n working on abelian groups and not on Lie groups. Was there a feeling that Lie groups and not probability was real mathematics? No, I d o n ' t think so. Varadarajan was interested in mathematical physics, and he thought Lie groups were important there. In the preface to his book on Lie groups he says his first introduction to serious mathematics was from the works of
Do you remember any of his lectures? Sure, I attended all of them. In one of them he talked about testing for r a n d o m n e s s and w h a t is meant by a rand o m sequence. If you d o too m a n y tests, then nothing will be random. If you do too few, you can include m a n y systematic objects. He introduced the idea of tests w h o s e algorithmic complexity was limited and if you did all these your s e q u e n c e w o u l d still b e random. He insisted on giving his first lecture in Russian and Parthasarathy was the translator. I learnt that Kolmogorov travelled by train to otherplaces in India. Did you accompany him? Yes, Parthasarathy and I, a n d p e r h a p s s o m e others, travelled with him. We w e n t to Waltair, Madras, and then to Mahabalipuram w h e r e Parthasarathy fell from o n e of the temple sculptures and fractured his leg. Then he did not travel further and I a c c o m p a n i e d K o l m o g o r o v to Bangalore and finally to Cochin, from w h e r e he caught a ship to return to Russia.
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HarishChandra. That would suggest that what be had been doing earlier was not serious mathematics. Perhaps w h a t he meant by serious mathematics is difficult mathematics. I think probability came easy to him. On the other hand, HarishChandra's w o r k is certainly hard because it requires synthesizing m a n y things. In probability theory, especially limit theorems, if you k n o w s o m e amount of functional analysis and have s o m e intuition, you can get a w a y with it. So, he thought it was much more difficult. It was much m o r e inaccessible. O n e gets much more pleasure out of going to a place that is inaccessible. A n d you never had that feeling. No, for me I was quite h a p p y doing w h a t e v e r I had b e e n doing. Is there any other work f r o m ISI at that time that influenced y o u r later work? For example, the paper by B a h a d u r a n d Ranga Rao related to large deviations? Yes, very much so. Cram~r had a w a y of c o m p u t i n g large deviations for sums of i n d e p e n d e n t r a n d o m variables a n d it led to certain expansions. Bahadur and Ranga Rao w o r k e d out the expansions. So I k n e w at that time about the Cram~r transform and h o w large deviation probabilities are controlled by that. Would it be correct to say that at ISI you got the best possible exposure to weak convergence a n d to limit theorems? Varadarajan was one of the early pioneers in weak convergence. Prohorov's p a p e r came in 1956 a n d he studied w e a k c o n v e r g e n c e in metric spaces. Varadarajan k n e w that and took it further to all topological spaces. Ranga Rao in his Ph.D. thesis used w e a k convergence ideas to prove difficult theorems in infinitedimensional spaces, such as an ergodic t h e o r e m for r a n d o m variables with values in a Banach space. That was very important for me, as I saw h o w w e a k c o n v e r g e n c e can be used as a tool, and I have used that idea often. In the preface to his book Probability Measures on Metric Spaces, Parthasarathy talks of the "Indian school of probabilists". Did such a thing ever exist? Ranga Rao, Parthasarathy, Varadarajan, and I w o r k e d on a certain aspect of probabilitylimit t h e o r e m s   w h e r e we did create a m o v e m e n t in the sense that our w o r k has influenced others, and w e brought in new ideas and techniques. The "school" lasted very briefly. What makes a school? The school does not exist but the ideas exist. (Laughs). With hindsight, do you still consider this work to be important? I think it is important. It has influenced others, and I have used ideas from that w o r k again and again in other contexts. Later generations in the Institute look at that period with a sense o f reverence a n d of longing. The burst o f creativity in Calcutta in the 1950's a n d 60's was perhaps like a comet that will not return f o r a long time. For the Tata Institute also that seems to have been the golden period.
O n e must r e m e m b e r that at that time if a n y o n e w a n t e d to d o research in mathematics in India, there w e r e only two places, the TIFR or the ISI. If you w e n t to any university, you w o u l d be attached to exactly o n e professor and d o exactly what he did. There was no school there. But n o w that has changed. There are lots of places in India w h e r e a student can go. ISI is not the only place, and even ISI has other centres now.
Courant Institute
You came to the Courant Institute in 1963 at the age o f 23. How did you choose this place? W h e n I learnt a b o u t Markov processes, I learnt they had links with partialdifferential equations. Varadarajan had b e e n here as a postdoctoral fellow in 196162. W h e n he returned to India he told me that if I w a n t e d to learn a b o u t PDE, then this was the best place for me. The reason f o r his recommending you this place was its strong tradition in differential equations, not probability. There were some probabilists here like [H. P.] McKean a n d [Monroe] Donsker. McKean wasn't here. Donsker had c o m e just the year before. A n d in PDE, Courant, Friedrichs, Fritz John, Nirenberg, a n d Lax were all here. Yes, Moser and Paul G a r a b e d i a n too. Ahnost e v e r y b o d y (important) in PDE was here. Stroock, in one o f his writeups on you, says that f e w other probabilists k n e w statistics at that time. That was one o f y o u r advantages. I think that is an exaggeration. In the United States probabilists came either from the mathematics or the statistics departments. Those w h o came from the statistics department surely k n e w statistics. Stroock himself h a d a mathematics background. How about the converse? Did statisticians k n o w probability well at that time? I think they k n e w some probability. You cannot do statistics without knowing probability. Those w h o w o r k e d on mathematical statistics definitely k n e w e n o u g h probability to be proving limit theorems. That is w h a t mathematical statistics at that time was. What was the status of probability theory itself in 1960, within mathematics. For example, I have here with me an obituary of ~l. L.] Doob by Burkholder a n d Protter. They say that before Doob's book "probability had previously suffered a cloud o f suspicion among mathematicians, who were not sure what the subject really was.. was it statistics? a special use of measure theory? pt4Fsics?" D o o b ' s b o o k was the first one to put probability in a mathematical context. If you read the book, it is clear that what he is doing is mathematics; everything is p r o v e d . O n the other h a n d p e o p l e at that time w e r e also influenced by Feller w h o came from a different b a c k g r o u n d   h e was a classical analyst. I don't think he cared much about D o o b ' s book. I think there was some friction there.
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Did Feller think the book was too mathematical? I think it was t o o . . , theoretical. It is not so m u c h the mathematics. It is totally d e v o i d of any intuition, it is very formal. For that reason Feller did not like the book. D o o b ' s b o o k is difficult to learn from. For certain topics like martingales it was p e r h a p s the ideal book. I was interested in Markov processes, and Dynkin's b o o k s were the first ones that treated the subject in the w a y it is d o n e today. I return to my question about the status ofprobability in 1960. Was it indeed under a cloud of suspicion and mathematicians did not know where to place it? It is hard for m e to say . . . . I think there w e r e s o m e like Mark Kac w h o k n e w w h a t exactly it could do or not do. He used it very effectively to study p r o b l e m s in physics. D o n s k e r k n e w it was a branch of mathematics a n d he was interested in using it to solve p r o b l e m s of interest in analysis. And then there was [G. A.] Hunt w h o did excellent things in probability a n d potential theory. I think again it was Doob who made the connection between probability and potential following the work of Kakutani. Yes, D o o b m a d e the initial connections but the decisive w o r k was d o n e by Hunt. Courant was 75 when you came here. Do you have any memories of him? I met him two or three times at social dinners. I h a d no scientific interaction with him. He had retired and came to his office on some days. Let me ask you a f e w questions about his spirit and his influence on the thinking here. In herfamous biography of Courant, Constance Reid says he resisted the trend towards "generality and abstraction" and tried to "shield" his students from it. She cites Friedrichs as saying Courant was "a mathematician who hates logic, who abhors abstractions, who is suspicious of 'truth" if it is just bare truth. "Later in the book she says Courant told her he did not hate logic, he was repelled by it. At the same time he regarded himself as the "intellectual son" of Hilbert. Now Hilbert certainly solved several concrete problems. But he had a major role in promoting abstraction in mathematics, and also worked in logic itself, When Reid pointed this out to Courant he replied, "Hilbert didn't live to see this overemphasis on abstraction and the selfemulation and selfadulation that some of these abstractionists show." This quote in the book is followed by one from Friedrichs: "We at NYU recognised rather tardily the achievements of the leading members of 'Bourbaki'. We really objected only to the trivialities of those people whom Stoker calls 'lespetits Bourbaki'." (Laughs) I think there is a difference in the point of view. I think abstraction is g o o d   t o some extent. It tells you w h y certain things are valid, the reason behind it; it helps you put things in context. On the other hand the tradition in the Institute has always been that you start with a concrete problem and bring the tools n e e d e d to solve it, and as you proceed do not create tools irrespective of their use. That is where the difference comes, with p e o p l e w h o are so interested in the formalism that they lose track of what it is g o o d for.
When you began your career, the Bourbaki style was on the rise. Did that affect your work? Not here! Is there a clear line between "too abstract" a n d "too concrete"? Let me again quote from Reid's book. Lax is cited there as saying that there was "provincialism at NYU which was somewhat GOttingenlike." He quotes Friedrichs to say that von Neumann 'S operator theory was considered too abstract there. I f i n d this surprising. First, I thought GSttingen was very broad, and second, if we apply the same yardstick what do we say of Hilbert's work on the theory of invariants? Gordan had dismissed this work of Hilbert as "too abstract" and called it "theology" not mathematics. Now we f i n d Friedrichs saying von Neumann was considered too abstract. Is there some clear line here, or everyone feels comfortable with one's own idea of abstraction? I do not attach much importance to these things. I think abstract methods are useful and one uses whatever tool is available. My p h i l o s o p h y always has b e e n to start with concrete problems and bring the tools that are needed. And then you try to see if you can solve a w h o l e class of problems that way. That is what gives you the ability to generalise. I willpersist with this question a little more. Lax says that what they felt in G6ttingen about yon Neumann's theory of operators, here at this Institute they felt the same way about Schwartz's theory of distributions. He says it is one of those theories which has no depth in it, but is extremely useful. He goes on to say they resisted it because it was different from the Hilbert space approach that Friedrichs had pioneered. Later both he a n d Friedrichs changed their minds because they f o u n d distributions useful in one of their problems. One of Courant's last scientific projects was to write an appendix on distributions for Volume III of CourantHilbert that he was planning. Is there a lesson here? The lesson is precisely that if you d o not see any use for something, then it is abstract. Once y o u find a use for it, then it b e c o m e s concrete. What Lax calls the "provincialism" at NYU, did it exist at other places? Most of the elite departments" in the US those days hardly had anyone in probability or combinatorics. Yes, there has b e e n a certain kind of snobbery. If one does algebraic g e o m e t r y or algebraic topology, one believes that is the g o l d e n truth of mathematics. If you h a d to actually m a k e an estimate of s o m e kind, that is not high mathematics. (Laughs) Has this changed in the last f e w years? I think fashions change. Certain subjects like n u m b e r theory have always b e e n important and a p p e a l to a lot of people. Some other subjects that had b e e n peripheral bec o m e mainstream as the range of their applications grows. In this shift towards probability a n d combinatorics has computer science played a major role? C o m p u t e r science has raised several p r o b l e m s for these subjects. There are w h o l e classes of p r o b l e m s that cannot b e solved in p o l y n o m i a l time in general, but for which algorithms have b e e n f o u n d that solve a typical p r o b l e m in short time. What is 'typical' is clearly a probabilistic con
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cept. That is one way in which probabilty is useful in computer sciences. Indirectly m a n y of the problems of computer science are combinatorial in nature, and probability is one way of doing combinatorics.
methods there. Some people find Hilbert spaces more convenient than (general) topological vector spaces. That is what Friedrichs did initially. W h e n you come to a p r o b l e m where one space does not work you go to another one.
I come back to m y question about admiration f o r a n d resentment against Bourbaki. Do y o u think this h a d unhealthy consequences? Or, is it that mathematics is large enough to accommodate this? I think we have large e n o u g h room for different people to do different things. Even in France, those brought up on the Bourbaki tradition, if they need to learn other things, they will do it. People want to solve the problems they are working on, and they find the tools that will help them. Sometimes you have no idea where the tools come from. Ramanujan's conjectures were solved eventually by Deligne using the 6tale cohomology developed by Grothendieck. Did y o u ever feel, as some others say they have felt, that some branches o f mathematics have been declared to be prestigeous a n d very good work in others is ignored? I never felt so. At ISI there was n o such thing. At the Courant Institute there was n o snobbery. Except that there was no need to do distributions./ No, I d o n ' t think so. I will put it this way. Distributions are useful because they deal with objects that are hard to define otherwise. But, more or less, the same thing can be achieved in a Hilbert space context. It is true that duality in the context of topological vector spaces is much broader but a major part of it can be achieved by working in Hilbert spaces. A p r o b l e m does not come with a space. You choose the space because it is c o n v e n i e n t to use some analytical
Now let me ask a question to which I k n o w y o u r answer. But I will ask it a n d then p u t it in context. Were y o u disappointed that y o u did not get the Fields Medal? No. What I really m e a n to ask y o u is whether y o u did not get the Fields Medal because at that time probability theory was not considered to be the k i n d o f mathematics f o r which Fields Medals are given. I can't say. (Laughs) It is true that, historically, Fields Medals have gone much more to areas like algebraic geomeu T and n u m b e r theory. Analysis, even analysis, has not had as many. It is only this time that probability has got its first Fields Medal. Sure, I w o u l d have b e e n happier if one had b e e n given to a probabilist earlier. But after all, (at most) four medals are given every four years. Many people who deserve these awards do not get them. Let us come back to 1963. Did you start getting involved in PDE soon after coming here? I was still continuing my work in probability, a n d whatever PI)E I n e e d e d I learnt as I went along. And here you do not even have to make an effort to learn PDE, you just have to breathe it. Stroock says lhat the very first problem y o u solved after coming here was done simultaneously by the great probabilist Kiyosi It& a n d y o u did not publish y o u r work. What was the problem?
Varadhan's Lemma There is a simple lemma due to Laplace that is useful in evaluating limits of integrals: For every c o n t i n u o u s function b o n [0,1]
lim 1 log i~1 e n~x~ d x =  i n f h(x). *1+~r n
llfllt, =
a oneline proof of this lemma: lim log liehi[,, = log [lehll~ = log sup e h(~> =  i n f h(x).) Now suppose we are given a family of probability measures a n d are asked to evaluate the limit lim   log
,~l)~ n
The function I(x) is n o w called the rate function. It is defined for spaces much more general than the unit interval [0,1]. Let X be any complete separable metric space (Polish space). A rate function I is a lower semicontinuous function from X into [0, m] such that for every {' < m the levelset {x : I ( x ) < ~} is compact. A family {/~n} of probability measures o n X is said to satisfy the largedeviation principle (LDP) with the rate function I if (i) for every o p e n set U
[l
f,
)
e '~b<~ dtxn(x).
Varadhan's Lemma says that if {p,n} satisfy the LDP, then for every b o u n d e d continuous function h o n X lim   log
dtzn(x) ~ e ~'lC~dx,
then by Laplace's lemma this limit w o u l d be  i n f [b(x) + I(x)].
~t+~
There is an amazing variety of situations where the LDP holds. Finding the rate f\mction is a complex art that Varadhan has developed over the years.
31
It was a question about giving a more precise m e a n i n g to F e y n m a n integrals. In the SchrOdinger equation there is a differential part (the Laplacian) and there is a potential part (some function). The measure you want to construct d e p e n d s on the Laplacian. Without the i this will b e the Brownian motion. The p r e s e n c e of i makes it the F e y n m a n integral, and not so welldefined. If you take the Fourier transform of the SchrOdinger equation, then the potential part (multiplication) b e c o m e s a convolution o p e r a t o r a n d plays the role of the differential operator, and the Laplacian b e c o m e s multiplication by x 2. The idea was that n o w you b a s e your m e a s u r e on (the Fourier transform of) the potential part. That is not as b a d as the F e y n m a n integral; it may even be a legitimate integral for some nice potent i a l s  l i k e functions with c o m p a c t support, some functions with rapid decrease, or the function x.
Your address on this paper is given as the Courant Institute a n d ISI. Were you still associated with the ISF
I was on leave from the ISI for three years a n d resigned later.
You have stayed at this Institute since I963. What has been the major attraction?Is it New York? the Institute? something else?
I like New York. After living in Calcutta I got used to living in big cities. In 1964 I got married and m y wife was a student here. So w h e n the o p p o r t u n i t y came to join the faculty here, I did so. By that time I h a d got u s e d to the place, and I liked it a n d stayed. It is a g o o d place and has b e e n g o o d for me. It is always exciting and interesting with lots of p e o p l e c o m i n g here all the time.
Was this the first work you did after coming to the Courant Institute?
Well, D o n s k e r a s k e d a very special question. There are several approximations that w o r k for the Wiener integral. Do the same a p p r o x i m a t i o n s w o r k for the F e y n m a n integral? If you take the Fourier transform, then they d o w o r k b e c a u s e the measure b a s e d on the potential is nicer. That was the context of m y work.
Your first paper at the Courant Institute appeared in 1966 and has the title "Asymptotic probabilities and differential equations". Can you describe what it does?
W h e n I came here in 1963 D o n s k e r had a student by the n a m e Schilder. He was interested in the solution of certain equations w h o s e analysis required Laplace type of asymptotics on the W i e n e r space. You have the W i e n e r measure and the Brownian m o t i o n that has very small variance, and you are interested in c o m p u t i n g the expectation of s o m e thing like exp ( e  l f ) . So you have something with very large oscillations and you are c o m p u t i n g its expectation with respect to something with very small variance. If you discretize time, then you get Gaussian densities instead of the Wiener measure and this b e c o m e s standard Laplace asymptotics. So you do it for finite dimensions and interchange limits, and that is what Schilder had done. Having b e e n brought up in the tradition of w e a k c o n v e r g e n c e it was natural for m e to think of splitting the p r o b l e m in two parts. O n e was to abstract h o w the measures b e h a v e asymptotically and then have a t h e o r e m linking the behaviour of the integrals to that of measures. That is not a hard t h e o r e m to prove, o n c e you realize that is what you w a n t to do. Then if you k n o w a little bit of functional analysis, that Riemann integrals are limits of sums, a n d h o w to control errors you can w o r k out the details. It was clear that if you have probabilities that d e c a y exponentially and functions that g r o w e x p o n e n t i a l l y you can do it by formulating a variational p r o b l e m that can b e solved.
I have never met him but from his writings Iget the impression that he will like it if I saF that your coming together was a stroock of good luck.
(Laughs.)
Your work with Stroock seems to have flowed like the Ganga. In three years between 1969 and 1972 you published more than 300pages of research in a series of papers in the Communications on Pure and Applied Mathematics. Can we convey a.17avour of this work to the lay mathematician?
Let us u n d e r s t a n d clearly w h a t y o u want and w h a t you are given. In the diffusion p r o b l e m certain physical quantities are given. These are certain diffusion coefficients {a!1(x)} which form a positivedefinite matrix A(x) for each x in ~d, a n d y o u are given a firstorder drift, i.e., a vector field {hi(x)}. We want to associate with them a stochastic process, i.e., a m e a s u r e P on the space D consisting of continuous functions x(t) from [0,m) into ~ d such that x(0) = x0 almost surely. W h e n w e started our w o r k there w e r e two ways of doing it. O n e is the PDE m e t h o d in w h i c h you write d o w n the s e c o n d  o r d e r PDE
Is this paper the foundation for your later work with Donsker?
Yes. This p a p e r has two parts. First I prove the theorem I just mentioned and then apply it to a specific problem. Schilder had studied the case of Wiener measure with a small variance. I do it for all processes with independent increments.
This equation has a fundamental solution p(t, x, y). You use this as the transition probability to construct a Markov process P, and the m e a s u r e coming out of this process is
32
THE MATHEMATICALINTELLIGENCER
Let ( ~ , ~ , P) b e a p r o b a b i l i t y s p a c e a n d {Xt}t>_0 b e a family of r a n d o m variables with finite e x p e c t a t i o n s . Let {~t}t>0 b e an increasing family of suboalgebras of ,~. If e a c h Xt is m e a s u r a b l e with r e s p e c t to Uct, a n d the c o n d i t i o n a l e x p e c t a t i o n E(XtlU~s) = Xs for all s  t, t h e n w e say {Xg}t_>0 is a martingale. (A c o m m o n c h o i c e for ,~t is the oalgebra g e n e r a t e d b y the family {Xs : 0 <  s  < t}.) The Brownian motion {B(t)}t_>0 in ~ a is a martingale. The connection goes further. Let q~b e a C2function from ~ d into ~. Then
u(t, x ) =
f2

I '1~
)
Aq~ (B(s)) ds
vz
Ou at
t '*0 V+X
1 2
32U Ox 2 '

and further, lira u(t, y) = ~(x). More ger/erally, one may study a p r o b l e m w h e r e the constant a is r e p l a c e d by a function a(x), and the particle is subjected to a drift b(x). (For example, the OrnsteinUhlenbeck process is one in which b(x) =  p x , an elastic force pulling the Brownian particle towards the origin.) Then w e have the equation
is a martingale. It was s h o w n by It6 a n d Levy that this property characterizes the Brownian m o t i o n   a n y stochastic process for which X~(t) d e f i n e d as a b o v e is a martingale for every q~ must be the W i e n e r process. The Martingale Problem p o s e d by Stroock and Varadhan is the following question. Let 8____~ 8
v~ = ~
a#(x) 8xiOx/ + Ej b / ( x ) 8 @
be a secondorder differential operator on ~a. Can one associate with d a diffusion process with paths x(t) such that
8u at
X~(t) = ~(x(t)) 
(,~)
(x(s)) ds
In higher dimensions a(x) is r e p l a c e d by a covariance matrix [aij(x)] w h o s e entries are the di[fusion coefficients, a n d b(x) is n o w a vector.
your answer. All this requires some regularity conditions on the coefficients. In the other method, due to It6, you write d o w n a stochastic differential equation (SDE) involving the Brownian motion/3(.). Let o be the square root of A. The associated SDE is
is a martingale with respect to (~), ~t, P), w h e r e Uct is the ofield g e n e r a t e d by {,x(s) : 0 < s< t} and
1 ~,
9 .
0__._~ 2
3xiOoc!
j
0
OXi "
x(O) = Xo.
This equation has a unique solution under certain conditions. This gives a m a p qbx,, from ~ into itself and the image of the W i e n e r m e a s u r e u n d e r this m a p is the diffusion w e want. The conditions u n d e r which the two m e t h o d s work overlap, but neither contains the other. The PDE m e t h o d d o e s not w o r k very well if the coefficients are degenerate (the lowest eigenvalue of [a#(x)] c o m e s close to zero); the It6 m e t h o d does not w o r k if the coefficients are not Lipschitz. W h e n they fail it is not clear w h e t h e r it is the m e t h o d or the p r o b l e m that fails. We w a n t e d to establish a direct link b e t w e e n P and the coefficients without any PDE or SDE coming in. This is what w e formulated as the Martingale Problem: Can you find a m e a s u r e P on ~ such that
In this general formulation d can be r e p l a c e d by any operator. This m e t h o d works always w h e n the other two do, and in m a n y other cases. (Just as integration w o r k s in more cases than differentiation.)
I believe after the completion of your work the field of PDE started borrowing more from probability theory, while the opposite bad been happening before.
No, w e too use a lot of differential equations; w e d o not avoid them.
Between distribution solutions of differential equations a n d viscosi(v solution& that came later, is there another layer of solutions that one may call probability solutions?
Yes, . . . , there is something to that. If you take expectations with respect to the probability measure that you have constructed, then you get solutions to certain differential equations. Usually they will be distributions but the conditions for the existence of a generalized solution may not be
X~(t)
~(x(t))  ~(xo) 
i'
)
(d~)(x(s))ds
fulfilled. So you can call these a n e w class of generalized solutions, and they can be defined through martingales.
So, are we saying that f o r a certain class of equations there are no distribution solutions but there are solutions in this n e w probability sense? It is difficult to say what exactly is a distribution solution. It is perfectly clear what a classical solution is. Then everyone can create one's o w n c l a s s   n o t h i n g special about the Schwartz c l a s s   i n which a unique solution exists, as long as it reduces to the classical solution w h e n that exists. Talking o f classical solutions, what is the first instance o f a major problem in PDE being solved by probahilistic methods? Is it Kakutani's p a p e r in which he solved the Dirichlet problem using B r o w n i a n motion? Sure, that is the first connection involving probability, harmonic functions, a n d the Dirichlet problem. What is it that Wiener did not k n o w to m a k e this connection? The relation between B r o w n i a n motion a n d the Laplace operator was obvious to everyone. Is it because things like the strong Markov prope~l~ were not k n o w n at that time? Also, W i e n e r was m u c h m o r e of an analyst. I don't think he thought as m u c h of B r o w n i a n paths as of the W i e n e r measure. Unless you think of the paths w a n d e r i n g a r o u n d and hitting b o u n d a r i e s you will not get the physical intuition n e e d e d to solve s o m e of the problems. Who were the other players in the development o f this connection between probability a n d PDE? Kac, for example, with the FeynmanKac formula, surely k n e w the connections. As you were working on this, who were the other people doing similar things? In Japan: Ikeda, Watanabe, Fukushima, and many students of It6. The brilliant Russian probabilist Girsanov. He died very young in a skiing accident. He had tremendous intuition. Another very g o o d analyst and probabilist Nikolai Krylov, n o w in Minnesota. Then there were Ventcel, Freidlin, and a whole group of p e o p l e coming from the Russian school. In the United States McKean w h o collaborated with It6, and several people working in martingales: Burkholder, Gundy, Silverstein; and the French have their school too. I a m curious why hyperbolic equations are excluded f r o m probability methods. Except o n e or two cases. There are s o m e e x a m p l e s in the w o r k of Reuben Hersh. But they are rare. If you w a n t to a p p l y probability, there has to be a m a x i m u m principle, and not all equations have that. The m a x i m u m principle forces the order to be two, a n d the coefficients to be positivedefinite.
of a functionspace integral. Asymptotically, this integral grows like the first eigenvalue of the Schr6dinger operator, a n d this can be seen from the usual spectral theory. D o n s k e r asked w h e t h e r the variational formulas arising in large deviations and Laplace asymptotics and the classical RayleighRitz formula for the first eigenvalue have s o m e c o n n e c t i o n through the FeynmanKac representation. I thought about this and it turned out to be the case. This led to several questions like w h e t h e r there are Sanovtype t h e o r e m s for Markov chains and then for Markov processes; and if w e did the associated variational analysis for the Brownian motion, w o u l d w e recover the classical RayleighRitz formula. It t o o k us a b o u t two years 197375 to solve this problem. The G e r m a n mathematician JQrgen G~irtner did very similar w o r k from a little different perspective.
What are y o u r recollections about Donsker~ He h a d a large collection of p r o b l e m s , m a n y of them a little offbeat. He had the idea that functionspace integrals could be u s e d to solve m a n y p r o b l e m s in analysis, and in this he was often right. W e w o r k e d t o g e t h e r a lot for a b o u t ten years till he died, rather young, of cancer. It is mentioned in Courant's biography that Donsker was his confidant when he worried about the direction the Institute was taking. There was a special relationship b e t w e e n the two. I think a part of the reason was that most of the others at the Institute w e r e too close to C o u r a n t   t h e y w e r e his graduate students or sonsinlaw. (Laughs) D o n s k e r was an outsider and Courant r e s p e c t e d the perspective of s o m e one like him. But in the e n d Courant did w h a t he w a n t e d to do in any case. Almost all the reports say that the largedeviation principle starts with Cram#r. The idea comes from the Scandinavian actuarial scientist Esscher. He studied the following problem. An insurance c o m p a n y has several clients and each year they m a k e claims which can be thought of as r a n d o m variables. The c o m p a n y sets aside certain reserves for meeting the claims. What is the probability that the sum of the claims e x c e e d s the reserve set aside? You can use the central limit theorem and estimate this from the tail of the normal distribution. He f o u n d that is not quite accurate. To find a better estimate he introduced what is called tilting the measure (Esscher tilting). The value that you want not to be exc e e d e d is not the mean, it is something far out in the tail. You have to change the m e a s u r e so that this value b e c o m e s the m e a n and again you can use the central limit theorem. This is the basic idea which was generalized by Cramdr. N o w the m e t h o d is called the Cramer transform. Is Sanov's work the first one where entropy occurs" in largedeviation estimates? It is quite natural for e n t r o p y to enter here. Sanov's and Cramer's theorems are equivalent. One can b e derived from the other b y taking limits or b y discretizing. The S h a n n o n interpretation o f entropy is that it is a measure of information. Is it that a rare event gives y o u more information than a common event a n d that is how entropy a n d large deviations are related?
Large Deviations
Your papers with Stroock seem to stop in 19 74I guess that is because he left New Y o r k   a n d there begins a series o f papers with Donsker. How did that work start? I was on sabbatical leave in 197273 and on m y return D o n s k e r a s k e d me a question a b o u t the FeynmanKac formula which expresses the solution of certain PDE in terms
34
THE MATHEMATICALINTELLIGENCER
9 . . The o c c u r e n c e of a rare event gives you more information, but that may not be the information you were looking for. (Laughs) What h a p p e n s in large deviations is something like in statistical mechanics. You want to calculate the probability of an event. That event is a c o m b i n a t i o n of various micro events and you are adding their probabilities. It is often possible to split these micro events into various classes and in each of these the probability is roughly the same. It is very small, exponentially small in s o m e parameter. So each individual event has probability = exponential of  n times something. That something is called the "energy" in physics. But then the n u m b e r of micro events making an event could be l a r g e   i t could be the exponential of n times something. That something is the "entropy". So the energy and e n t r o p y are fighting each other and the result gives you the correct probability. That is the picture in statistical mechanics. So,
for me entropy is just a combinatorial counting. Of course you can say that if I pick a n e e d l e from a hay stack, then it gives me more information than picking a n e e d l e from a pin cushion. But then e n t r o p y is the size of the hay stack.
In the notes in their book Deutschel and Stroock say that Sanov's elegant result was at first so surprising that several authors" expressed doubts about its veracity. Why was that so?
I do not know! . . . It is something like Bochner having b e e n surprised [by our first theorem]. (Laughs)
One comment I heard about your work was that before you most people were concerned only with the sample mean, whereas you have studied many other kinds of objects and their large deviations.
Let me put it this way. Large deviations is a probability estimate. In probability theory there is only one w a y to estimate probabilities, and that is by Chebyshev's inequality 9
(S.
>p+e
=h+(8)
The function h+ is the rate function for this problem. The expression defining it shows that it is an entropylike quantity. Let us now go to a slightly more c o m p l i c a t e d situation. Let /.t be a probability distribution on ~ a n d let X1, X2, . . . be i n d e p e n d e n t identically distributed rand o m variables with c o m m o n distribution/x. The s a m p l e mean is the r a n d o m variable ~,(~0) = _1 L
n i=1
x,(~0),
The elementary, but fundamental, inequality of Chebyshev gives an estimate of the rate of d e c a y in this limit: P >e <
and by the strong law of large numbers, as n+ o~ this converges almost surely to tile mean m = E321. In other words, for every e > 0
H+o:
ne 2
It was p o i n t e d out by Bernstein that for large n this u p p e r b o u n d can be greatly improved:
P n >p+ g < e n~,+(e),
Then
As ~~ 0, h+(e) is a p p r o x i m a t e l y ~ / 2 p ( 1  p). For a fair coin p = 1/2 and this is 26"2. So,
tl'>3C
1 n log P
(IL
ml
= 
]x
,E
I(x).
[ Sn
e_e,zE2
(In our e x a m p l e at the begining we had e  .1, and for n w e chose n = 100 and 1000.)
In other words, as n goes to ~, P ([Xn  ml > e) goes to 0 like e no, w h e r e c = i n f { l ( x ) : [ x  m ! ~ } . The functions I and k are convex conjugates of each other, and I is the FenchelLegendre transform of k. Convex analysis is o n e of the several tools used in Varadhan's w o r k on large deviations.
35
Sanov's Lemma Let /,t be a probability measure on a finite set A = {1,2 . . . . . m} a n d let X1, X2, . . . b e Avalued i.i.d rand o m variables distributed according to /,. Each X, is a m a p from a probability space ( s 9~, P ) into A such that P(X, = k) =/*(k). The "empirical distribution" associated with this s e q u e n c e of r a n d o m variables is defined as
to 0 as n+ 0o. Finer information about the rate of decay is given by Sanov's Lemma. For every v in JR, the relative e n t r o p y of v with respect t o / , is defined as H(v]/~) =
{~.m__
1 v(i) log ~
v(/)
if v<</~ otherwise.
12
n ,=1
For each w a n d n, this is a probability m e a s u r e on A. (If a m o n g the values Xl(w), . . . , X,,(t0) the value k is a s s u m e d r times, then I*,,(w)(k) = r/n.) The GlivenkoCantelli lemma says that the s e q u e n c e p,n(w) converges to /.t for almost all w. Let ~ be the collection of all probability measures on A a n d let U be a n e i g h b o u r h o o d o f / * in JR. Since /.L,, converges to/~, the probability P ( w : /~,,(w) ~ U) goes
Let c =
v~U
inf H ( v l / * ) . Then
n>c~ n
For this p r o b l e m I(v) = H ( v l t*) is the rate function, and our probability goes to 0 at the s a m e rate as e cn. In this case w e have studied limits of measures instead of numbers. This is w h a t Varadhan calls the LDP at the second level. At the third, and the highest, there are LDP's at the stochasticprocess level.
The usual Chebyshev inequality applies to s e c o n d moments, Cramer's applies to exponential moments. You c o m p u t e the expectation of s o m e large function and then use a Chebyshevtype inequality to control the probability. That is you control the integral, and the probability of the set w h e r e the integrand is big cannot be very large. So p e o p l e have concentrated on the expectation of the object that you w a n t to estimate. That stems from the generatingfunction point of view. My attitude has b e e n slightly different. I w o u l d start from the Esscher idea of tilting the measure. His exponential tilting is just o n e w a y of tilting. It w o r k s for ind e p e n d e n t r a n d o m variables. If you have some process with some kind of a m o d e l and you are interested in s o m e tail event, then you change the m o d e l so that this event is not in the tail but near the middle. The n e w m o d e l has a RadonNikodym derivative with respect to the original model, and you can use a Jensen inequality to obtain a lower bound. This may be very small. Then you try to optimise with respect to the choice of models. If you do this properly, then the lower b o u n d will also b e the u p p e r bound.
What kind of optimisation theory is used here? It d e p e n d s on the problem. For e x a m p l e for diffusion in small time for Brownian motion on a Riemannian manifold it is the g e o d e s i c problem. If you want to get Cramer's theorem by Sanovtype methods, the ideas are similar to those in equilibrium statistical mechanics. The Lagrangemultiplier m e t h o d is an a n a l o g u e of the Esscher tilt. If you want a Sanovtype t h e o r e m not for i.i.d, r a n d o m variables but for Markov chains, then a FeynmanKaclike term is the Esscher tilt. It is the same idea in different shapes. It is said that whereas in the classical limit theorems the nature of individual events is immaterial, in the largedeviation theory you do have to look at individual events. I guess what p e o p l e m e a n to say is that in the largedeviation theory you solve an optimisation problem. So events near the optimal solution have to be e x a m i n e d more carefully.
You and Donsker have a series of papers on the Wiener sausage (a tubular neighbourhood of the Brownian motion) where you have asymptotic estimates of its volume. What is the problem in physics that motivated this study? The Laplace o p e r a t o r on ~ d has a continuous spectrum. If you restrict to a b o x of size N it has a discrete spectrum. As you let N go to infinity and count the n u m b e r of eigenvalues in s o m e range and normalize it p r o p e r l y this goes to a limit, called the density of states. If you a d d a potential, you get another density of states. A special class of potentials of interest is w h e r e you c h o o s e r a n d o m points in R a according to a Poisson distribution, put balls of small radius a r o u n d them w h e r e the potential is infinite. There are two p a r a m e t e r s now, o n e is the density (of the Poisson distribution of traps) and the other is the size of the traps. N o w you w a n t to c o m p u t e the density of states. This is d o n e better if you go to the Laplace transform. Then it b e c o m e s a trace calculation, and by the FeynmanKac formula this can be d o n e in terms of the Brownian motion. Entering the infinite trap means the process gets killed. So w e are looking at a Brownian m o t i o n that must avoid all these t r a p s   w h i c h are distributed at random. This p r o b lem was p o s e d by Mark Kac. You are looking at the b e h a v i o u r of density of states at low levels of energy. That is the same as the b e h a v i o u r of the Laplace transform for large t. So you want to k n o w what is the probability that the Brownian motion avoids these traps for a very long time. The conjecture m a d e b y the Russian physicist Lifschitz was that this probability decays like e x p (  c td/(d+2)). It is easy to calculate the probability of having a big s p h e r e with no traps in it. Then you calculate the p r o b a bility that a Brownian motion that is in this s p h e r e stays there for ever, or at least up to time T. This can also be easily calculated and turns out t o be like e  a t , w h e r e a is the first eigenvalue of the Laplacian on this s p h e r e with the Dirichlet b o u n d a r y condition. You multiply the two probabilities to get the answer.
36
THE MATHEMATICALINTELUGENCER
In another series of papers you and Donsker study the polaron problem. Can we describe this to our readers, even if loosely?
Our w o r k started with a question p o s e d to us by E. Lieb. It comes from a p r o b l e m in q u a n t u m statistical mechanics and the w o r k of Feynman. In the usual FeynmanKac formula you have to calculate the expectation of integrals like exp [i'
measures as a stream and in addition to 8x,, 8xe, . . . , look at 8(Xl,X2), 8(x2,x3), , . . , a n d then at 8(x,,x2,x3), 8(x2,x~,x~) , and so on with tuples of length k. N o w you can first let n, and then k, go to m. This is process level large deviation. Here I am considering the following question: I d r a w a sample from one stochastic process a n d ask w h a t is the probability that it looks like a s a m p l e d r a w n from a different process? This is what I call a levelthree largedeviation problem. The rate function for this can be c o m p u t e d and turns out to be the KohnogorovSinai entropy. This is used in the solution of the p o l a r o n problem.
9 . .
V(x~.)dsJ.
This is complicated, and there was a conjecture about the value of the limit of G(a)/a 2 as a ~ ~. The potential V(xo x O is something like 1/[]x,~ x,,.[[. So the major contribution to the integral c o m e s from those Brownian paths that tend to stay near themselves. Typical paths do not b e h a v e like that. So the asymptotics require a largedeviation result quite like the one in our w o r k on the Wiener sausage. Here is w h e r e large deviations at various levels c o m e in. At the first level you have a s e q u e n c e of r a n d o m variables and y o u look at their means. At the next level you look at 8x, + 9 9 9 + 8x,, and think of it as a r a n d o m measure. That is like in Sanov's theorem. I will call that level two. From the higher level you can project d o w n to a lower level using a contraction principle. It is like computing the marginals of a bivariate distribution. At level three you think of the
Let me turn to lighter things now. In 19801 attended a talk by Mark Kac. He began by sa3:ing that Gelfand, who was three months older than him, advised him that as you grow old you should talk of other people's work and not your own. And he said he couldn't do better than talking of the DonskerVaradban asymptotics. Kac was 66 at that time, your present age. If you were tofollow that advice, whose work will you talk about?
In probability theory the most exciting w o r k in the last ten years has b e e n on SLE (stochastic Loewner equations). This is mostly due to W e n d e l i n Werner, Greg Lawler, and O d e d Schramm.
Kac says a large part of his scientific effort was devoted to understanding the meaning of statisticaI independence. For dburant, a very large part of the work is around the Dirichlet principle. Is there one major theme underlying your work?
It is hard for me to say something in those words. I can talk of my attitude to probability. I don't like it if I have
{x~: O<r<t, x ~ = x } a n d f i r dxr is a "uniform measure" on ~(0,t]. For a mathematician such a measure does not exist. Kac o b s e r v e d that if the i in Schr6dinger's equation is taken out, one gets the heat equation. A solution similar to Feynman's n o w reduces to a legitimate W i e n e r integral
&b
3t

1
2
820
8x2
V(x)O,
0(0,x) = ~(x). F e y n m a n ' s solution to this is in the form of a curious functionspace integral
~ ( t , x ) = ~ S x p { i f o r [ ( 2 ,)2
V(Xr)]dr]q~
3'7
Varadhan explains in this conversation w h y physicists are interested in studying the behaviour, as t  + 0% of a~t(*). D o n s k e r and Varadhan p r o v e d the marvelous formula 1 lim td/(d+2) log ~ t (~) =  k ( c ) , where
k(c) 
d+2 d
(2~)d/(d+2)c2/(d+2) '
to do lots of calculations without k n o w i n g what the a n s w e r might turn out to be. I like it w h e n m y intuition tells me what the a n s w e r s h o u l d be a n d I w o r k to translate that into rigorous mathematics.
Where are these problems coming from? Usually from physics. Physicists have s o m e intuitive feeling for the a n s w e r a n d mathematics is n e e d e d to d e v e l o p that. Do you talk often to physicists? Yes, For the last few years I have b e e n w o r k i n g on hyd r o d y n a m i c scaling. I often talk to J. Lebowitz at Rutgers, and to others. What is your work connecting large deviations to statistical mechanics, thermodynamics and fluid flow? This may loosely b e d e s c r i b e d as nonequilibrium statistical mechanics. The ideas go b a c k far; for e x a m p l e in the derivation of Euler's equations of fluid dynamics from classical Hamiltonian systems for particles. You ignore individual particles and look at macroscopic variables like pressure, density, fluid velocity. These are quantities that are locally c o n s e r v e d and vary slowly, and others that wiggle very fast but reach some equilibrium. There are ergodic measures i n d e x e d by values for different conserved quantities. These are local equilibria or Gibbs states. If your system is not in equilibrium, it is still locally in equilibrium. So certain parameters that were constants earlier are n o w functions of s p a c e and time. You want to write s o m e differential equations that describe h o w these evolve in time. Those are the Euler equations. How do large deviations enter the picture? In the classical m o d e l there is no noise. I can't touch things that have no noise. (Laughs) Think of a m o d e l in which after a collision w h o gets to leave with what mom e n t u m is random. What are the applications of these ideas in areas other than physics. I believe there are some in queuing networks. How about economics? There are some applications. I do k n o w some p e o p l e working in mathematical f i n a n c e   I don't know whether that is real finance. (Laughs) But it is conceivable that these ideas are used. These days you can write "options" on anything.
Let us make up a problem. I write an option that if a certain stock rises to $1000, then I will p a y you the average closing price for the last 90 days. So what I p a y does not d e p e n d just on the current value but also on the past history h o w it got there. But the past history counts only if it reached this high value. Therefore you want to k n o w first the probability that the stock will reach this high value, and then if it did so what is the most likely path through which it will reach this value. For this you have to solve a largedeviation problem.
There is a joke that two economists who got the Nobel Prize for their work on stock markets lost their money in the stock market. (Laughs) I have no idea. But w h a t e v e r they lost they m a d e up in consultancy. It is remarkable that the equations of Brownian motion were first discovered by Bachelier in connection with the stock market, and only later by Einstein and Smoluchowski. Are there many instances of this kind where social sciences have a lead over physicaI sciences? I think m a n y statistical concepts, n o w u s e d in biology, w e r e first discovered in the context of social sciences. Another major collaborator of yours has been G. Papanicolaou. Whereas your work with Stroock and Donsker was concentrated over a f e w years to the exclusion of other things, here it is spread over several years. Is this the beginning of your interest in hydrodynamic limits? Can you summarize it briefly? G e o r g e and I were at a conference in Luminy in Marseille. We always w e n t for a walk after lunch. Luminy is on top of a hill and there is a s t e e p walk d o w n to the sea. We w a l k e d d o w n and u p for exercise after lunch, a n d discussed mathematics. George e x p l a i n e d to me this p r o b l e m about interacting Brownian motions. You have a large numb e r of Brownian particles that c o m e together and are rep e l l e d from each other. The density of paths satisfies a nonlinear diffusion equation. You have to c o m p u t e s o m e scaling limits for this system. I was intrigued by the problem as it l o o k e d like a limit theorem, and I always thought I should be able to prove a limit theorem, especially if e v e r y o n e b e l i e v e d it was true. But w h e n I l o o k e d at it closely there was a serious p r o b l e m   o f the kind I mentioned before. H o w to prove certain quantities are in local
equilibrium. Pretty soon I f o u n d a way of doing it. In some sense large deviations played a role. If you are in equilibrium you can compute probabilities. If you have a small probability with respect to o n e measure and if there is another measure absolutely continuous with respect to this, then the probability in this measure is small if you have control over the RadonNikodym derivative 9 This derivative is given by the relative entropy. In statistical mechanics the relative entropy of n o n e q u i l i b r i u m with respect to the equilibrium is of the order of the volume. So events that had probabilities that were superexponentially small in the equilibrium case still have small probabilities in the nonequilibrium case. My idea was that to control something in the n o n e q u i l i b r i u m case you control it very well in the equilibrium. At this time Josef Fritz gave a seminar at the Institute where he was looking at a different problem on lattice models. Some ideas from there could handle what we had b e e n u n a b l e to do in our problem 9 That is the history of my first entry into this field.
It seems to me that at this m o m e n t most of their problems are statistical in nature, . . . like data mining.
On P r o b a b i l i s t s I would like to talk a little about some majorfigures in probability theory in the 20th century, and get a feel of the recent history as you see it. Does" the modern theory of probability begin with Kolmogorov, as is the general view? Kohnogorov was really responsible for making it a legitimate branch of mathematics 9 Before that it was always suspect as mathematics, something that was intuitively clear but was definitely not mathematics. The person w h o contributed the most to probablistic ideas of the time was Paul Levy, but he was considered an e n g i n e e r by the French 9
You have worked with several collaborators. Do you have any advice on collaborations'?
I think you should talk to a lot of people. A part of the fun of doing mathematics is that you can talk about it. Talking to others is also a good source of generating problems 9 If you work o n your own, n o matter how good you are, your problems will get stale9
Have you thought of problems coming from areas other than physics?
Problems that come from physics are better structured. In statistical mechanics one knows the laws of particle dynamics a n d can go from the micro level to the macro level where observations are made 9 There is a similar situation in economics where you want to make the transition from individual behaviour to what h a p p e n s to the economy 9 This is fraught with difficulties. Whereas we k n o w which particles are interacting, we do not k n o w how persons interact and with whom. The challenge is to make a reasonable model. Physics is full of models.
In the preface to It6 's selected papers you and Stroock say Wiener (along with Paley) was the Riemann of stochastic integration.
Yes, though he did it more by duality a n d completion arguments. The Wiener integral is very special, but it must have b e e n the motivation for It6's more general theory.
Do you think Cram~r's Mathematical Methods of Statistics (1945) did for statistics what Kolmogorov's book had done for probability?
It is quite unreadable! W h e n I was a student there were not any statistics books that were readable. The best I f o u n d were some lecture notes o n statistical inference by L e h m a n n from Berkeley 9 Statistics has two aspects to it. O n e is computing sampling distributions of various objects, and this is
The Ubiquitous Brownian Motion A gambler betting over the outcome of tossing a coin wins one rupee for every head a n d loses one for every tail. Let N(n) be the n u m b e r of times that he is a net gainer in the first n tosses. For a > 0 what is
lim P
n~cc
Let (f~, S~ P) be any probability space a n d X> Xe, i.i.d, r a n d o m variables o n it with m e a n 0 a n d variance 1. For each n > 1 associate with every point ~o in an element %, of C[0,1] as follows. Let
9 . .
< a ?
The answer is that this limit is equal to the Wiener measure of the set of Brownian paths (in the plane) that s p e n d less time than a in the u p p e r halfplane. This very special example is included in a very general "Invariance Principle" proved by Donsker in his Ph.D. dissertation.
39
just an exercise in multiple integrals 9 This is really m o r e analysis than statistics. The other aspect, real statistics, is inference. Very few b o o k s did that. At that time m a n y expositions came from Berkeley.
We already talked o f Paul Ldvy. Though you said he was thought o f as an engineer, he was proving theorems to the effect that the set where the typical Brownian path intersects the real axis" is" homeomorphic to the Cantor set. How is this kind o f thing useful in probability? There is an interesting w a y of looking at Brownian motion. The zeroset of a Brownian motion is a Cantor set. So there is a m e a s u r e that lives on the Cantor set, and parametrised by that measure it b e c o m e s an interval. This gives a m a p from the Cantor set into an interval; u n d e r this m a p several o p e n sets are closed up. You can try to "open" them up again. This means there are r a n d o m l y distributed points on the interval w h e r e you " o p e n up" things using Brownian paths that w a n d e r e d into the u p p e r  h a l f or the lowerhalf plane 9 These are "Brownian loops" or "excursions". Is it possible to reconstruct the Brownian motion by starting with the Lebesgue m e a s u r e on the interval and o p e n i n g r a n d o m intervals with excursions? This "excursion theory" is a beautiful description of the Brownian motion. Levy saw all this, and later It6 perfected it. A m o n g other important names there are Khinchine, Feller,... Khinchine did probability, n u m b e r theory, and several other things. I think he w o u l d have thought of probability as an exercise in analysis. Did Feller like analysis? He seems to have been critical o f Doob f o r making probability too abstract. Feller's w o r k is all analytical. For example, the law of the iterated logarithm is hard analysis, as is his description of o n e  d i m e n s i o n a l diffusion. It is not that he did not like analysis; he thought D o o b ' s b o o k was too technical. In his o w n b o o k he cites D o o b ' s b o o k a m o n g "books of historical interest". That m a d e D o o b very angry. How do you assess Doob's Stochastic Processes (1953)? My view of D o o b ' s b o o k is that it is very uneven. Some parts like martingales are very original. But if you look at a b o o k you should c o m p a r e the n u m b e r of pages with w h a t is p r o v e d in those pages. D o o b ' s b o o k is large, over 600 pages, but does not p r o v e that much. In one interview be says he intended to minimise the use o f measure theory because probabilists thought it was killing their subject. But then he f o u n d the "circumlocutions" became so great that be bad to rewrite the whole book. Is it that even that late probabilists did not w a n t measure theory to intrude into their subject? I don't think so. But you see, in probability w h a t d o you do with m e a s u r e theory? The only thing you n e e d is the d o m i n a t e d c o n v e r g e n c e theorem, w h a t else? It is always in the background. But to say that you were avoiding measure theory in an a d v a n c e d b o o k s o u n d s strange. No, Doob says he tried to avoid it because probabilists thought it was killing their subject. That is only b e c a u s e they a l l o w e d it to. Let us take
D o o b ' s o w n book, for example. O n e of the c o n c e p t s in the study of stochastic processes is the notion of separability. That is w h e r e measure theory really intrudes 9 The p r o b l e m is that sets d e p e n d i n g on m o r e than a countable n u m b e r of operations (like those involving a s u p r e m u m ) are not measurable, If you c h a n g e a r a n d o m process on a set of m e a s u r e zero n o b o d y will notice it. But if for each t you c h a n g e it on a set of m e a s u r e zero, then as a function you c h a n g e it on the union of these sets w h i c h is no longer of m e a s u r e zero. So one has to be careful in c h o o s i n g certain sets and functions from an equivalence class9 Of course if you don't k n o w measure theory this d o e s not bother you. (Laughs) But soon you notice you can c h o o s e versions that are reasonable, and then you d o n ' t have to worry about the matter. So you should k n o w "separability" can be a problem, learn to avoid it, a n d then avoid it forever. Doob, on the other hand, m a k e s a w h o l e theory out of it. That is b e c a u s e you let the measure theory intimidate you.
At another place Doob attributes the popularity o f martingales to the catchy name. Do y o u believe that the n a m e "martingale" made the theory popular? I don't think so. Maybe w h e n D o o b started the theory, no one cared. But then it turned out to b e a very useful concept. T o d a y even p e o p l e on Wall Street k n o w of martingales. (Laughs) Let us come to It6 now. In y o u r preface to his Selecta you a n d Stroock say that if Wiener was the R i e m a n n o f stochastic integration, then #6 was its Lebesgue. Is that an accurate analogy? I thought Wiener's integral is very special, while It6's is much more general9 I am sure that was written by Stroock; it is not my style. If you read Levy's w o r k y o u will get s o m e idea of what a diffusion should be like. It is locally like a Brownian motion, but the m e a n and the variance d e p e n d on w h e r e you are. It is clear from Wiener's integral that you are changing the variances b y a scale factor, but the factor d e p e n d s on time and not on space 9 If you w a n t it to d e p e n d on both time and space, you get an equation, and that is a stochastic differential equation. This is what It6 must have seen; a n d he m a d e precise the ideas of W i e n e r and the intuition of Levy, b y defining this equation.
9 . .
Do you have any special memories of Mark Kac? Oh, he was a lot of fun. He w o u l d often call us up a n d invite us to c o m e to Rockefeller University w h e r e he w o u l d talk of m a n y problems. He had a t r e m e n d o u s collection of problems 9 Is there anyone else you would like to mention? Dynkin m a d e big contributions. He started out in Lie groups a n d came to probability a little late, a r o u n d 1960. Then he f o u n d e d a major school on Markov processes. I learnt a lot from his work, from his books, papers, and expository articles. Around 1960 he wrote a beautiful p a p e r in Uspehi on p r o b l e m s of Markov processes and analysis, that I r e m e m b e r very well. What, in y o u r view, is the most striking application o f probability in an area f a r a w a y f r o m it? Although I am not quite familiar with it, it is u s e d in law some times 9 (Laughs)
40
THE MATHEMATICALINTELLIGENCER
I meant an application in mathematics, but in an area not traditionally associated with probability. For example, Bismut's purely probabilistic p r o o f o f the AtiyahSinger index theorem. Is that unexpected? Well, McKean had already d o n e s o m e w o r k on it with Singer and it was clear that probability or, at least, the fundamental solution of the heat kernel plays a role. Since the Laplacian o p e r a t o r is involved, the role of probability is not far fetched. Is there an area where you would not expect probability to enter, but it does in a major way? 9 . . N u m b e r Theory. For e x a m p l e the w o r k of Furstenberg 9 In PDE probability n o w plays a major role but that is not unexpected 9 If you use martingales, the m a x i m u m principle just reduces to saying that the expectation of a nonnegative function is nonnegative.
awards are a n n o u n c e d just before they are actually given, a n d they are told they can tell their spouses but no one else. That must be difficult f o r them/ But this was only b e t w e e n 6:30 a n d 7. You cannot call too m a n y p e o p l e anyway. I did not tell a n y o n e e x c e p t my wife till 7. There has been some discussion about thepurpose of such prizesbeyond honouring an individual. Lennart Carlson said they draw public attention to the subject. When I entered college, physics was the most prestigious subject. Then Hargobind Khorana got a Nobel Prize, a n d f o r a f e w years" manF top students in India wanted to study biochemistry. I see little chance of mathematics displacing m a n a g e m e n t even after y o u r Abel Prize. I think it d o e s m a k e the subject m o r e visible, a n d m a y attract a few individuals w h o otherwise had not thought about it. At 67 you are the baby among the Abel Prize winners. It~ got the first Gauss Prize last year when he was about 90. Is it good to have age limits f o r such prizes? I don't think it is important. N o w you have several prizes of high level 9 There are the Wolf Prize, the Crawfoord Prize, the Kyoto Prize, the King Faisal Prize, . . . And although they don't say it, they rarely go to the same individual 9 Still most o f the other prizes have not caught the public imagination in the same way as the Nobel Prize. The Nobel Prize is a century old and has got e t c h e d into p e o p l e ' s consciousness. One purpose the prizes could be made to serve is that a serious attempt is made to explain the winner's work to people. It is hard to explain what a mathematician has done, c o m p a r e d to a n e w cure for cancer or diabetes. But we don't even explain it to mathematicians. At the ICM's there are talks on the work of the Fields Medalists.
The Prize
Did you anticipate y o u r being chosen f o r the Abel Prize? No, not at all. I have read that potential Nobel Prize winners are usually tense in October a n d j u m p every time their p h o n e rings at 6 AM. I also heard a talk by a w i n n e r who told us that when they p h o n e you about the Nobel Prize they have with them someone whom you know so that you are sure no one is pulling your leg. How was it f o r you? They called me at 6:10 A.M., gave me the n e w s and said I should not tell a n y o n e till 7 w h e n they w o u l d a n n o u n c e it at a news conference in Oslo. They told me there w o u l d be a live interview on the Norwegian radio 9 Were you allowed to tell _Four wife? I told my wife. My question was whether you were allowed to. The Fields Medal winners have to be told in advance because the
l a u g h e d hysterically until the p h o n e started ringing and our lives started changing.   L e o n Lederman, in "The God Particle" I think it's a g o o d thing that Fields Medals are not like the Nobel Prizes. The Nobel prizes distort science very badly, especially physics 9 The difference b e t w e e n s o m e o n e getting a prize and not getting one is a t o s s  u p   i t is a very artificial distinction. Yet, if you get the Nobel Prize and I don't, then you get twice the salary and y o u r university builds y o u a big lab; I think that is very unfortunate 9 But in mathematics the Fields Medals don't have any effect at all, so they don't have a negative effect. I f o u n d out that in a few countries the Medals have a lot of p r e s t i g e   f o r example, Japan. Getting a Fields Medal in J a p a n is like getting a Nobel Prize. So w h e n I go to J a p a n and am introduced, I feel like a Nobel Prize winner. But in this country, n o b o d y notices at all.   M i c h a e l Atiyah The Intelligencer, 1984
41
On Bach
The StroockVaradhan book proceeds on its inexorable way like a massive Bach fugue.   D a v i d Williams (Book Review in Bull. Amer. Math. Soc.)
There's nothing to it. You just have to press the right keys at the right time with the right force, a n d the organ will make the most beautiful music all by itself. J o h a n n Sebastian Bach
Some are very good and others do not convey much even to a competent mathematician from a neighbouringfield. To explain something very clearly and very well takes a lot of effort, thought a n d time. It is not an easy job. You have been an editor, for many years, o f Communications on Pure and A p p l i e d Mathematics, and of the Grundlehren series. Do you make any effort to make your authors write better? In a journal it is difficult to d o so. But for b o o k s in the G r u n d l e h r e n series w e are very meticulous. We try to have b o o k s from which p e o p l e can learn. I began our conversation with India and would like to end with it. You left India at the age of 23. Do you think you could have done something more for mathematics in India? P e r h a p s I c o u l d have. But t h e s e things are c o m plicated. Since m y family a n d m y w o r k are here, I c o u l d at b e s t m a k e short visits a n d give s o m e lectures. S o m e s t u d e n t s c o u l d t h e n k e e p in contact, or c o m e here. S o m e of that w a s d o n e in the 1970's w h e n w e h a d m o r e scholarships. But t h e n o u r funds for t h e s e things w e r e reduced.
9 . .
resentation theory orprobability. Is this something you could have done, or would like to do in the future? I don't know. I think the Indian p s y c h e is different from the Chinese. The Chinese like the role of an e m p e r o r much m o r e and Chern e n j o y e d that role. Indians s e e m to be m u c h m o r e individualistic, and even within India I d o not see a n y o n e with that much influence. What are your other interests? I like sports. I play either tennis or squash for o n e h o u r every day. I listen to music, t h o u g h I d o not have special k n o w l e d g e of it. I like Karnatak music 9 I like to w a t c h movies, I see a lot of English as well as Tamil movies. Are these the masala movies in Tamil? Yes, a lot of them. These days y o u have DVD players a n d you can fastforward w h e n e v e r y o u w a n t to. I also read Tamil books, both n e w a n d old. Nobel Prize winners are often asked a silly question: what will you do with the money? I h a v e n ' t m a d e d e t a i l e d p l a n s b u t I h a v e a r o u g h idea. I w o u l d like to p u t s o m e of it for p u b l i c g o o d . My parents' last r e s i d e n c e was in Madras ( C h e n n a i ) a n d they w e r e a s s o c i a t e d with a school. T h e r e is also a h o s p i t a l there w h i c h is d o i n g g o o d w o r k . I w o u l d like to h e l p such ventures. P e r h a p s I will use o n e third o f the prize m o n e y for that. Then, o f course, I h a v e to p a y t a x e s  n e a r l y o n e third of it. The r e m a i n i n g o n e third I will k e e p for m y o w n use, Thank you very much for giving me so much of your time, and best wishes for the Award Ceremony next week9
I have a very specific question here. If you see a person like S. S. Chern, he played an enormous role in grooming mathematicians of Chinese origin, even before China opened up. Perhaps HarishChandra could have played a similar role for Indians but he didn't9 It could be that the two personalities were different. Several mathematicians of Chinese origin became outstanding differential geometers. Nothing like that happened to Indians in the fields of rep
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